Trial Roggli Testimony Asbestos

Page 4798 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. MID-5418-12-AS VALERIE PANZARELLA, ) Individually and as ) Executrix and Executrix ) ad Prosequendum of the ) STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT Estate of MICHAEL C. ) ARGENTO, ) OF Plaintiff, ) ) JURY TRIAL V. ) ) (VOLUME XXIV) CHARLES B. CHRYSTAL ) COMPANY, INC., et al., ) ) Defendants. ) __________________________ B E F O R E: HONORABLE ANA VISCOMI, and a Jury 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRANSCRIPT of the stenographic notes of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter, as taken by and before LINDA M. JORRITSMA, a Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, held at the MIDDLESEX COUNTY COURTHOUSE, 56 Paterson Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey, on Monday, August 8, 2016, commencing at 8:37 a.m. Job No. NJ2334756 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 4799 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 LEVY KONIGSBERG LLP BY: MOSHE MAIMON, ESQ. 4 AMBER R. LONG, ESQ. 800 Third Avenue 5 New York, New York 10022 212-605-6200 6 [email protected] [email protected] 7 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 8 DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 9 BY: RICARDO G. CEDILLO, ESQ. McCombs Plaza, Suite 500 10 755 East Mulberry Avenue San Antonio, Texas 78212-3135 11 210-822-6666 [email protected] 12 Attorneys for Defendant, Lorillard 13 HUGHES, HUBBARD & REED, LLP 14 BY: JAMES E. BERGER, ESQ. 2345 Grand Boulevard 15 Kansas City, Missouri 64108-2663 [email protected] 16 Attorneys for the Defendant, Hollingsworth & Vose 17 BROWN & CONNERY, LLP 18 BY: STEPHEN J. DeFEO, ESQUIRE 360 Haddon Avenue 19 Westmont, New Jersey 08108 [email protected] 20 Attorneys for the Defendants, Lorillard and Hollingsworth & Vose 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4800 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (continued): 2 3 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS, LLP BY: ALAN I. DUNST, ESQ. 4 DANIEL R. KUSZMERSKI, ESQ. 40 Paterson Street 5 P.O. Box 480 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 6 732-545-4717 [email protected] 7 [email protected] Attorneys for Defendant, Whittaker Clark & Daniels, 8 Inc. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4801 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS: PAGE 3 VICTOR ROGGLI 4 DIRECT BY MR. CEDILLO CROSS BY MR. MAIMON 5 6 7 EXHIBITS 8 No. Description Page 9 LTC-11 Marked for Identification LTC-12 Marked for Identification 10 P-130 Marked for Identification P-131 Marked for Identification 11 P-132 Marked for Identification P-133 Marked for Identification 12 P-134 Marked for Identification P-135 Marked for Identification 13 P-136 Marked for Identification P-137 Marked for Identification 14 P-138 Marked for Identification P-139 Marked for Identification 15 P-140 Marked for Identification P-141 Marked for Identification 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4839 4974 4926 4937 4981 4984 5000 5011 5019 5024 5029 5033 5075 5080 5088 5088 Page 4802 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (The following takes place out of the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Good morning. Today is August 8, 2016. We are here with regard to the continued trial in the matter of Valerie Panzarella individually and for the Estate of Michael Argento versus Charles B. Chrystal Company, et. al., Docket No. 5418-12, outside the presence of the jury. Could I have appearances, please, on behalf of the plaintiff. MS. LONG: Good morning, your Honor. Amber Long and Moshe Maimon on behalf of the plaintiff. THE COURT: Thank you. On behalf of the defendant Lorillard? MR. CEDILLO: Good morning, your Honor. Ricardo Cedillo and Mr. Stephen DeFeo for Lorillard. MR. DeFEO: Good morning, your Honor. THE COURT: Good morning. On behalf of the defendant Hollingsworth & Vose. MR. BERGER: Good morning, your Honor. Jim Berger and Steve DeFeo for Hollingsworth & Vose. THE COURT: And on behalf of the defendant Whittaker Clark & Daniels. 2 (Pages 4799 - 4802) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4803 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. DUNST: Good morning, your Honor. Alan Dunst and Daniel Kuszmerski on behalf of Whittaker Clark & Daniels. THE COURT: Good morning. So we have an expert witness on behalf of Lorillard, and that is Dr. -MR. CEDILLO: Roggli. THE COURT: Thank you. I couldn't remember his name. I was thinking Eagleman. MR. CEDILLO: No, that would take much more time than any of us have. Tell him I said that. Okay? THE COURT: So, however, in the meantime before the jury gets here, we are continuing with regard to objections to certain designations of the testimony taken in another matter of M.S. "Chip" Block. Okay. Where do we go after -- from where we concluded last? MR. MAIMON: Starting on page 41, line 19, your Honor, for the next several pages, and I'll voice -- it's the same objection through 44-6. This is talking about the generation or generations of Kent cigarettes after the relevant time period, and the waste involved, and whether or not there was Page 4805 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4804 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 waste in the subsequent products or not. And we 1 would object on relevance grounds. 2 MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, the relevance 3 is the suggestion that we were taking the asbestos 4 out because we knew of some great danger. And 5 obviously the truth is quite different. It was a 6 very wasteful process. He explains the differences 7 between the asbestos filter process and the new 8 process, which was faster, cheaper, easier, less 9 labor-intensive and much more economical. And that 10 belies the impression that they've tried to create 11 that we knew it was some sort of dangerous substance 12 we were rushing to -- to -- and took our sweet time 13 to get to. So I think it is relevant. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 Having had an opportunity to review some 16 of this testimony, although it is outside the period 17 of exposure and after the asbestos was taken out, 18 this goes to part of the defense, and that is why 19 asbestos was used in the beginning and why they took 20 it out. And so for that purpose, this portion of the 21 testimony remains in. The objection is overruled. 22 So where do we go next? 23 MR. MAIMON: 44-7 through 12, your 24 Honor. Our objection is not only with regard to the 25 relevance of what is going on today in 1998 when this witness is giving testimony, but also it gives expert testimony about what they've learned and what they've managed to improve and whether or not it's characteristic of a high-efficiency filter. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. CEDILLO: I think it's part of the story, your Honor. This is the engineer who created the machine and he's giving his perspective from his firsthand knowledge. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. MAIMON: But it's today. THE COURT: Well, he's giving the testimony today. MR. MAIMON: No, no, he says -- in fact, "QUESTION: Is that a characteristic of many high-efficiency filters?" He says, "Not today, because we have learned how to improve the thing. That was the first time we got away from the asbestos-type filter, and then we managed to make further improvements to get rid of that objection." It's not time bound. It's a period which would span 1956 to 1998, and there's no indication here as to when that happened. Page 4806 MR. CEDILLO: The relevance, your Honor, is that it's talking about the draw, and the features that make the draw to stay different from the difficult draw, which was part of our characteristics that Mr. Argento apparently never picked up on -MR. MAIMON: My point -MR. CEDILLO: -- because he didn't smoke the original cigarette. THE COURT: Hold on one moment. Mr. Berger wanted to add something. MR. BERGER: No. MR. MAIMON: That might be relevant, your Honor, if this were tied to the 1957, 1958, 1960 time period. But this witness is talking about 1998 and today, and so we object. THE COURT: That second sentence does not pick up from today. I mean, that first sentence talks about today, when he's giving the testimony in 1998, you said? MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. But the second sentence thereafter, "That was the first time we got away from asbestos-type filter, and then we managed to make further improvements to get rid of that objection." 3 (Pages 4803 - 4806) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4807 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 How much -- so this objection is to 7 through 12? MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. How about if we just got rid of that first sentence where he puts it in the "today" time frame of 1998, and left the rest of it? MR. BERGER: That's all right with us, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: Remove all of line 9 and 10 ending with "thing." THE COURT: Correct. MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: So that's what we'll do. Where do we go next? MR. MAIMON: 46-18, your Honor, through 48-7. This has to do with equipment used to package Kents and packaging of Kents and packaging of another brand called Old Gold, and we object on relevancy grounds. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, the integrity of the packaging has a lot to do with the condition of the packages that Dr. Longo chose to test, and this is a description of what they looked like when they were being manufactured and coming off the Page 4809 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4808 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 assembly line, and we can contrast that with the condition that Dr. Longo had. So it's part of that. That's the relevancy. MR. BERGER: And it's also -- if I may, your Honor, it's also foundational to what our expert, Dr. Reinert, will be able to tie up, that this kind of packaging, the cellophane that they were packaged in, was not airtight, could lead to the degradation over the 40 years between the packaging and when Dr. Longo tested the cigarettes. THE COURT: Thank you. Anything further? MR. MAIMON: No, your Honor. THE COURT: For that purpose for which the defendant seeks to introduce this testimony, it will be permitted. The objection is overruled. Where do we go to now? MR. MAIMON: 55, lines 2 through 3. THE COURT: Sorry, which lines? MR. MAIMON: Lines 2 and 3. There's no -- there's no answer to the question. MR. BERGER: We can edit that. That's not a problem, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: I think the question was reasked. MR. MAIMON: Yes, it was. MR. CEDILLO: I think 1, 2 and 3 and 4 should come out and it would pick up at 5. THE COURT: Well, 1 is the end of the prior answer. MR. CEDILLO: Sorry, yes. THE COURT: So 2 through 4 you're going to take out? Is that correct? MR. CEDILLO: I think so, your Honor. MR. BERGER: We'll take out, yeah, 2, 3, 4. That is correct. THE COURT: Correct. MR. CEDILLO: Begin at 5. THE COURT: Where to now? MR. CEDILLO: Sorry I missed that. MR. MAIMON: Page 56-2 through -- I'm sorry -- 58-6. THE COURT: 56-2 to 58-6. And what's the nature of the objection? MR. MAIMON: This calls for expert testimony, your Honor. What is it about the condition or the picture in 8-B that would have prevented it from functioning and performing in the more manner in which Lorillard intended it, and whether or not it would be more likely or less likely Page 4810 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to release asbestos, the components of the filter?" That's on 57. And he's not qualified as an expert, and this is giving expert opinion. THE COURT: Okay. So remind me again. Mr. Block was an engineer. MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: And what was his role again? MR. CEDILLO: He created the machine and he was in charge. THE COURT: The machine that made the cigarettes? MR. CEDILLO: Yes. MR. BERGER: The filter. Because the filter material was so unique, Lorillard had to work with the machine manufacturers to develop filter-making equipment. Mr. Block was the chief engineer of Lorillard at the time involved in the development of that, as well as running the manufacturing process and dealing with quality control during the Micronite time period. THE COURT: So the testimony in this particular case, in this Rosenzweig case in 1998, he was a fact witness, correct, and not an expert? MR. BERGER: Yes. 4 (Pages 4807 - 4810) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4811 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4813 MR. CEDILLO: Yes. 1 THE COURT: Let me just look through 2 these passages. 3 MR. CEDILLO: And your Honor, he's 4 talking about the photographs from the Longo '95 5 report. 6 THE COURT: Okay. So when he's talking 7 about 8-B. Exhibit 8-B in page 56, line 4, that's 8 the Longo photograph he's looking at? 9 MR. CEDILLO: Yes, in the '95 Cancer 10 Research article. 11 THE COURT: The published study. 12 MR. CEDILLO: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. BERGER: And I think while you read 15 this, particularly on page 57, you'll see that he 16 doesn't answer with expert testimony like what we've 17 seen from Dr. Hinds or other witnesses about whether 18 the filter would release fibers. He's giving his 19 testimony as a fact witness about the filter and how 20 it was manufactured and what its characteristics were 21 and how it both physically was formed as well as how 22 it appeared. So I think it's fact testimony. 23 THE COURT: Okay. So as the engineer 24 that created the machine that made the filter, he was 25 Page 4812 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there to do test runs on it and correct any issues during the relevant time frame, and then produced the final product. MR. BERGER: Yes, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: And followed up to make sure the quality control, the repetition, the mass production, was always consistent. THE COURT: All right. Give me a few moments. Based upon the role that Mr. Block served in creating the machine that made the filter, this is factual testimony and not expert testimony, so it all comes in. Where to now? MR. MAIMON: 60-18 through 61-11, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: 60-18 is not designated on my copy. MR. BERGER: It is. THE COURT: It is. MR. BERGER: They have previously not objected. MR. CEDILLO: Oh, you had not objected previously. I'm sorry. THE COURT: What's the nature of the objection? MR. MAIMON: It's actually -- the objection is the animation, your Honor, and I expect that they're going to show a computer animation. THE COURT: Have you seen the animation? MR. MAIMON: I did, your Honor, and I don't think there's a qualification for it. It was an animation that was created by the lawyers and they're asking him to comment about it, and there's no foundation laid for it that that animation fairly and accurately depicts the condition of the compression. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, I may be misremembering. I've had four other court hearings since I was last here. THE COURT: Oh, no, we should not have taken a break. MR. CEDILLO: But I thought that the objection has already been dealt with. I remember Mr. Maimon saying that it made for good theater but that it shouldn't come in. This is the animation where it shows how the roll collapses on itself and goes into a funnel to create it. This is the man who created the machine. He's explaining how the thing works. And I thought you ruled it was coming in. Page 4814 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MAIMON: I don't think the Court dealt with this issue. THE COURT: Didn't we already have some sort of animation already? MR. CEDILLO: Of the manufacturing process. This is part of it. I think she ruled on that. MR. MAIMON: I don't recall -- I have not -- not this -- I mean, I didn't raise this before. MR. BERGER: Mr. Maimon, the entire manufacturing process had been objected to, and you already overruled the objection. MR. MAIMON: The discussion of it. Yes, your Honor, dealt with the discussion of it. My objection is to an animation where he's already described in words above what he did, and now he's shown an animation by a lawyer, generated by the lawyers, and there's no foundation for an animation such as that as required by the rules. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, it's a demonstrative aid. He could stand up and draw it and discuss it, or do it much more quickly with a true and correct depiction of how it worked. And he says all that. I don't understand the nature of the 5 (Pages 4811 - 4814) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4815 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 objection. And I really do think it was dealt with, because I remember specifically Mr. Maimon saying how it made for great theater but that it shouldn't come in. MR. MAIMON: This is the first time the word "animation" is present in the transcript, so this is the first objection. My objection is not to his description, which he gave in the previous paragraphs and previous pages, my objection is the lawyer showing him an animation without following the rules about how you qualify an animation. Even a demonstrative aid, you have to qualify, and it's not qualified yet. MR. BERGER: Your Honor. THE COURT: Yes. MR. BERGER: If you note, plaintiffs are not objecting to the relevance of this. And as you have read, it appeared you were reading Mr. Block's testimony, he goes through and describes what is happening in the compression funnel and describing the compression ratio. There's nothing in the testimony that suggests he thought the animation was inaccurate or not representative of that segment of the manufacturing process. Page 4817 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4816 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Prior to that, in the designated lines on line 19 through 20, it says here, "You showed us on the exhibit the compression funnel." So are the jurors going to see those exhibits with the compression funnel? MR. BERGER: Yeah. What he -- what it is is -- and I'll stand up -- when he had -- when he showed the entire manufacturing process going from the filter to the conveyor belts to the cutting to the compression funnel, and et cetera, is what the jurors will see. And so while he is showing how the filter material goes down the conveyor belt and ends up becoming a filter, he points out the compression funnel that is part of that process. So that's what he's referring back to. The jurors will have already seen the compression funnel in his explanation. THE COURT: The exhibits. Okay. MR. CEDILLO: The jury has seen it. It's coming back now. It was part of Mr. Orcutt's video that hasn't been shown. There was a poster board which I believe was up on the screen. THE COURT: That's what I remember. MR. CEDILLO: Yes. THE COURT: Right. MR. CEDILLO: And that is now being animated to show the actual process of the seven layers -THE COURT: Rolling down. MR. CEDILLO: -- rolled up into one, going into the funnel, and that's what he's describing. THE COURT: Okay. MR. BERGER: And your Honor, if I may. MR. MAIMON: Yeah. MR. BERGER: If I can refer the Court back to -- you know, at this particular page, Mr. Ohlemeyer did not -- the defense lawyer did not ask the foundational question, did you prepare this animation. But when going through other diagrams and depictions of the manufacturing process earlier in the transcript, he did. So for example, on page -- page 29, when he is talking about the master roll process on page 29, line 19, Mr. Ohlemeyer asks: "Have you prepared a drawing of that for us. "ANSWER: Yes, I have." Or on page 32, lines 3 through 7: "Mr. Block, have you also prepared or had prepared at your direction an animation of that process, the process of creating a master roll? Page 4818 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "ANSWER: Yes." So those are just examples throughout the transcript where Mr. Block has already said, I was involved in preparing the diagrams or the animation. MR. MAIMON: We don't object to the diagrams. THE COURT: Is there anything further you haven't already articulated? MR. MAIMON: No. THE COURT: Okay. So here, having reviewed the testimony beginning with line 18, and the witness talking about exhibits that the jury is going to see that show the compression funnel. And, yes, here he's shown an animation. There is no foundational in terms of did you prepare this. However, in reading this testimony, he does not say -- he does not testify that it is in any way not accurate. In fact, his description of it is that it would be accurate. So I'm going to allow it in despite that lack of asking the witness whether he prepared it and is it accurate. By reading the testimony, certainly this witness would have indicated if there was a problem with it, and he does not. In fact, he says 6 (Pages 4815 - 4818) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4819 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here, "Well, here you see how the material goes in and it's folded over and compressed." So he talks about that. And he talks about why it's critical. And so that testimony will come in. Where do we go to now? MR. MAIMON: That was on page 60. Right, Judge? THE COURT: Right, 60, and it goes to 61. MR. MAIMON: Sorry. I missed one before. THE COURT: Sure. MR. MAIMON: At page 52, lines 18 through 22, is the question, but there's no -- there's no answer to it. THE COURT: 52, what line? MR. MAIMON: Eighteen through 22 is the question. It's restated on 53-16. THE COURT: Okay. I see that. Do you see that, Counsel? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. That's fine, your Honor. We'll take 52 -THE COURT: Eighteen through 22. MR. CEDILLO: Eighteen through 22 is Page 4821 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So if you're going to have a brand that people keep coming to buy, you've got to consistently make it the same way. That's -- that's the connection to it. THE COURT: Got it. Let me just read it. Okay. I'll allow it in for the purpose for which it's being offered. And the question on page 61, line 25, asks him first, "Have you heard of that phrase?" So he says, "Yes." And he says, "Okay. Tell us what it means." And so he tells what it means, and then it goes to the question which goes to this issue of his area, which goes into product development. So for that purpose, it is appropriate and I'll allow it. Where to now? MR. MAIMON: 116. MR. CEDILLO: I have some in between that. Shall we do them? MR. MAIMON: Whatever you want. MR. CEDILLO: We're at page 65 next, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. So these are the cross-designations? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, and objections that I Page 4820 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 out. 1 2 now? 3 MR. MAIMON: Now, 61-25. 4 THE COURT: Sixty-one -5 MR. MAIMON: Twenty-five. 6 THE COURT: Twenty-five, through where? 7 MR. MAIMON: Through 62-25. 8 THE COURT: And the basis for the 9 objection? 10 MR. MAIMON: The basis is relevance and 11 competency to testify, your Honor. This man is an 12 engineer. He's talking about brand loyalty, which is 13 either marketing or advertising or sales matter. And 14 what he thinks "brand loyal" means is irrelevant. 15 THE COURT: Right. Yes. 16 MR. CEDILLO: Well, your Honor, I think 17 it was a precursor to the question that starts on 18 page 9. 19 THE COURT: Starts on page what? 20 MR. CEDILLO: On line 9 of page 62. The 21 question about "brand loyal" leads to the question at 22 line 9 about consistency in the manufacture of the 23 product promote or help increase brand loyalty. And 24 he is the quality control manufacturing end of it. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Great. And where to Page 4822 have. THE COURT: Hold on. It's now 9 o'clock. Ercilyn, why don't you go down at say ten after, and give them time to assemble. Let's go off the record momentarily and let's see if Elias is here. (A discussion is held off the record.) THE COURT: I'm sorry. Mr. Cedillo, you were saying on page 65. MR. CEDILLO: Page 65, your Honor. At lines 21 and half of 22, the identification of Thomas Johnson representing the plaintiffs I think should come in and let the question continue with line 22, "As I understand it, you retired from Lorillard." MR. MAIMON: I think it's important that the jury know that this is cross-examination, your Honor. If it's live testimony, and the predicate for offering this testimony in is that there was fair cross-examination, and if I were to cross-examine, the jury would know that it's cross-examination. THE COURT: I think on the way around it rather than having the introduction is I can certainly tell the jurors, you're going to hear both plaintiff's designations and defendant's designations, so that the cross-examination is coming 7 (Pages 4819 - 4822) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4823 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from the plaintiff's attorney. Is that a fair way to resolve this? MR. MAIMON: Only if we interrupt the video at this point to say, now we start the cross-examination. I have no pride in it being Mr. Johnson, but I do think that as opposed to just telling them there will be some cross, that this is the cross. THE COURT: Anything further? MR. CEDILLO: I don't think that's necessary, but whatever the Court wants to do. THE COURT: You know what, I'll just leave it in the way it is rather than interrupting the video. MR. CEDILLO: Okay. THE COURT: Where do we go now? MR. CEDILLO: Sixty-six, your Honor, lines 9 through line 4 on page 67. This is all about other Kent testing -- testimony, rather, in other cases. We think it's prejudicial, and he's not an expert witness to be impeached because he's come and given opinion testimony somewhere else. MR. MAIMON: This is impeachment, your Honor. It goes to his bias and his credibility with the jury that he is a loyal person to Lorillard and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 goes around the country giving testimony for them. THE COURT: Anything further? MR. CEDILLO: No, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. So he is being presented as a fact witness on behalf of Lorillard, and so it doesn't matter that he is not an expert witness. It could go to impeaching credibility. That's what this is setting the stage for in the rest of the questions, I take it. MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. That stays in. Where to now? MR. CEDILLO: I think your ruling just took care of my objection on 69. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: Page 74. We're okay. I think you've taken care of 74, also. 76, there's colloquy between counsel that probably should not be designated, at lines 10 through 14. THE COURT: What's the purpose of that? MR. MAIMON: I don't care, your Honor. I didn't specify it. I just didn't break out where it should start. I have no problem with lines 10 through 16 coming out. Page 4825 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4824 MR. CEDILLO: Actually, just 14, because 15, you're asking him to hold up an exhibit, and then you go on. So it should be 10 through 14. MR. MAIMON: Come out? MR. CEDILLO: You need 15 and 16. MR. MAIMON: I don't care. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: All right. THE COURT: Has our expert arrived? MR. CEDILLO: He better be. MR. KUSZMERSKI: I saw Dr. Roggli outside, your Honor. THE COURT: Where to next? MR. CEDILLO: I believe it's 107, your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Maimon, do you have anything before 107? MR. MAIMON: No. MR. CEDILLO: Line 16 through 25. THE COURT: 107, line 16 through 25? MR. BERGER: All the way through 109. MR. CEDILLO: Goes all the way to 109-15. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: It's relevance and Page 4826 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hearsay, your Honor, and prejudicial. It deals with something called the Wayne memo, which I don't think is in this case -- not yet anyway. MR. BERGER: One of the key points, as you see on page 108, your Honor, is this document, the Wayne memo, is written in 1958, so it's after the Kent time period, and it's looking back at the '52 to '56 time period. So what they're discussing about what the author wrote in 1958 isn't relevant because the author wasn't there in '52 to '56. So there's no foundation the author was there. MR. MAIMON: I wish I would have been that eloquent in making my argument, your Honor, that the 1960 studies that Lorillard asked their experts about and entered into evidence, and the 1964 articles by Dr. Selikoff were not relevant to the state of the art at the time. Your Honor ruled that it was relevant to show what was going on at the time, and this is equally as relevant. The fact that this is not an expert witness is of no moment. They offered parts of Dr. First's testimony as fact testimony because he was there at the time. This is a qualified document. It's being shown to the witness and it's being read from. THE COURT: Yes. 8 (Pages 4823 - 4826) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4827 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. CEDILLO: A big difference in the categories that he's describing. My objection, I think, is summarized at page 109 where the payoff question is: "Do you have any idea where the writer of that memo could have gotten the idea that anyone at Lorillard thought it might have been a health concern?" He says, "I have no way of knowing." That isn't a deficiency in state-of-the-art documents that look back, that are the opinions of expert witnesses. It's apples and oranges. The objection here is that the guy is talking about something he doesn't know where anybody got any idea and is being used to sponsor it. That's a big difference. MR. MAIMON: It is a big difference, your Honor, because this witness is a loyal Lorillard witness who -- who wants Lorillard to win. He said so in the transcript, I believe, although that part isn't in. But he's being confronted by their consultant's own words that at the time, namely when they were making it, there were health hazard concerns back in 1952, it was felt in some circles to be a health hazard of its own. THE COURT: Well, here's the problem, Page 4829 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4828 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 though, through this witness. So the question is asked: "Mr. Block, when you worked at Lorillard, did you ever meet a man by the name of Sidney Wayne? "I saw him in the office a few times. Our paths seldom crossed. "What was -- what was Mr. Sidney Wayne's job with relation to Lorillard? "I think he was an outside consultant for public relations." So here he says he saw him a few times, paths seldom crossed. Thinks he was an outside consultant for PR. "And did you ever -- I've shown you a document that's on the letterhead of Sidney J. Wayne, Incorporated. Correct? "Apparently yes." And he's shown the document. "And it's dated January of 1958. "Correct." Again, he says he's shown the document. "And references Kent filters? "Apparently it is." MR. CEDILLO: Kent's new filter, your Honor. THE COURT: Oh, Kent's new filter. Thank you. "And notice a multitude of corrections on it. Who was the memo sent to, what initials? "Well, it says ES from JJ, and I have no idea who they are." So they're trying to get this document in by getting to the ah-ha moment by someone who seldom crossed paths with him, thinks he was an outside consultant. And so it's improper coming through this witness, so none of this is coming in. Where to now? MR. MAIMON: So that was through -THE COURT: Through -MR. MAIMON: 109-15? THE COURT: Correct. MR. CEDILLO: Next, your Honor, minor, at 110, lines 8 through 10, just delete the objection that's designated. It's probably an oversight. MR. MAIMON: No problem. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: Next, your Honor -MR. BERGER: I think we're back -MR. CEDILLO: -- I think is plaintiff's, is on 115, maybe -- no, I'm sorry, 116. MR. MAIMON: Yeah, 116 goes back to the Page 4830 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issue that the Court reserved on, and that is the socializing between Dr. Parmele and Mr. Block, and whether or not he ever saw Dr. Parmele and his wife smoking Kent cigarettes during the 1950s. It's the same issue and will abide the same ruling. MR. CEDILLO: Which I believe you reserved on. THE COURT: I did. MR. CEDILLO: I don't think she ruled on. THE COURT: I did not. MR. CEDILLO: So if you want our position on that again, your Honor. Dr. Parmele is the one that is being shown -- they're showing letters where he says harmful fibers. THE COURT: Um-hum. MR. CEDILLO: They don't -- they don't focus on the absence of or confirm the absence of harmful fibers. But obviously part of plaintiff's approach to this is to show that Dr. Parmele had some knowledge that there were harmful fibers going on. Well, I think an eyewitness account that Dr. Parmele smoked these things, that his wife smoked these things, I think it's only fair to get the other side of the story. If -- if they want to suggest 9 (Pages 4827 - 4830) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4831 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that Dr. Parmele was on this campaign because he knew that the filter contained harmful fibers, I think that's belied by the fact that he and his wife were avid smokers, and we have an eyewitness firsthand account telling it, and I think it's relevant and I think it's only fair if they're going to suggest he knew they were harmful, no, he didn't. He was smoking them and his wife was smoking them. MR. MAIMON: First of all, we're not suggesting, your Honor. We are simply reading documents that are Lorillard documents. So it's not that we are suggesting anything, we're not suggesting anything at all. Secondly, Lorillard has gone out of its way in every issue to this Court to remove the whole issue of smoking and health concerns, and so forth. Dr. Parmele was smoking cigarettes which Lorillard knew at the time caused cancer, and we will have a whole host of documents in evidence and witnesses to show that Lorillard, itself, knew that their product caused lung cancer. And that was the prejudice that we talked about. That was the reason, because it injects into the trial a whole host of issues that thus far this defendant has fought like the dickens to keep out. Page 4833 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4832 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So if Dr. Parmele and Lorillard knew how 1 dangerous cigarette smoking was, that it causes lung 2 cancer and could kill you -- which they don't want 3 this jury to hear about -- then why was he smoking 4 cigarettes at all? 5 MR. CEDILLO: Well, what he didn't -- we 6 didn't fight like the dickens, your Honor. Their 7 experts and our experts, and everybody almost, 8 stipulated that smoking and lung cancer has nothing 9 to do with mesothelioma. So it wasn't much of a 10 fight. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. CEDILLO: They agreed to it. And 13 counsel hasn't addressed the very thing that I point 14 out to the Court. They want to show that Parmele had 15 this working knowledge of harmful fibers and so he 16 was working to get it out. This is the other side of 17 the story. 18 THE COURT: I'll allow it in, and on the 19 other part that I had reserved. 20 MR. CEDILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Where to now? 22 Let me ask you, though, a question. 23 This one section on 117 which talks about E-60 and 24 Estron, is that relevant? 25 MR. CEDILLO: That's the replacement filter, your Honor. That's part of that story. THE COURT: All right. Where to now? MR. CEDILLO: I think our next one, your Honor, is on 120, beginning at line 19, going through line 24 on 121. THE COURT: Okay. These are the defendant's objections to plaintiff's designations? MR. BERGER: Yes, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: What's the basis of the objection? MR. MAIMON: Sorry, 120? MR. CEDILLO: 120-19 through 121-24. Prejudicial and relevance, your Honor. It talks about smoking and cancer. MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. So they want Dr. Parmele's smoking habits to be in because he would never have smoked those if he knew that asbestos was dangerous; but he's smoking them, and everyone knows cancer is a result. You can't have it both ways. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, a Readers Digest article about cancer by the carload, talking about cancer and cigarettes, when that smoking and Page 4834 health issue, by their expert's own admission, has nothing to do with Mr. Argento's mesothelioma, that's the prejudice and the lack of relevance. MR. MAIMON: But Mr. Cedillo is mixing apples and oranges. He's talking about a causation issue, and they've injected Dr. Parmele's knowledge about the hazards of their own product into this case now. THE COURT: This goes to the notice issue. It stays in. Where to now? MR. CEDILLO: I'm sorry, your Honor. I didn't understand your ruling. THE COURT: It goes to the notice issue. MR. CEDILLO: The notice issue. THE COURT: Where to now? MR. CEDILLO: So that's in? THE COURT: That's in. Where to now? MR. BERGER: I think that's it. MR. CEDILLO: On that transcript, that's it. THE COURT: Can we ask the witness to come in, just in case the jurors come? I would like him to be seated in the back, unless there's 10 (Pages 4831 - 4834) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 4835 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 something else we're going to do. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, in the next transcript, on page 925 of the follow-up transcript. THE COURT: Oh, I don't -- do you have that follow-up question for me? MR. BERGER: Yes, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: There's a question on Old Gold. THE COURT: Even if it's not marked, don't worry about it. Okay. So on 925, line 8, through where? MR. CEDILLO: To 928, line 7, it's a discussion about Old Gold cigarettes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. And whose designation is this? MR. CEDILLO: I'm sorry, your Honor? THE COURT: Who has designated this testimony? MR. CEDILLO: The plaintiffs. THE COURT: And what's the basis for the objection? MR. CEDILLO: Outside the scope. MR. MAIMON: Outside the scope of what? MR. CEDILLO: Anything -- it's about Old Gold filter cigarettes, which are not in this case. Page 4837 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4836 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It's the other filter cigarette that we made that did not have the asbestos that overlaps the time period. THE COURT: Okay. And why is this being offered? MR. MAIMON: Your Honor, this is relevant to the issue of design defect. That they had a filter on the market that they were manufacturing at the same time which did not have asbestos in it. So the feasibility of making such a filter was there. And with regard also to notice as to whether or not you could make such filters, and so they were making them. We had plenty of testimony about the processes of making both Kents with and without asbestos, and now we're talking about a simple process to make it also without asbestos. THE COURT: Thank you. Anything further? MR. CEDILLO: It's outside the scope of what they had designated on direct examination, your Honor. MR. MAIMON: That's the problem, your Honor, of calling the witness by videotape, that we don't get to -THE COURT: Yeah. This goes to the issue as to the plaintiff's design defect theory. So I'll allow it in for that purpose. Are the jurors ready to come in? MR. CEDILLO: That's it on Block then? THE COURT: Yes, it is. (The jury enters the courtroom. The following takes place in the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Nice to see you. Hope you had a nice week off. Please be seated. Make sure your cell phones are turned off. The notebooks are right there, if you wouldn't mind passing them around. And this is the continued trial with regard to Valerie Panzarella individually and for the Estate of Michael Argento versus Charles B. Chrystal Company, et. al., Docket No. 5418-12. Could I have appearances, please? MS. LONG: Good morning, your Honor. Good morning. Amber Long and Moshe Maimon for the plaintiffs. THE COURT: Thank you. On behalf of the defendant Lorillard. MR. CEDILLO: Good morning again, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Ricardo Cedillo and Steve DeFeo for Lorillard Tobacco Page 4838 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Company. THE COURT: Thank you. On behalf of the defendant Hollingsworth & Vose. MR. BERGER: Thank you, your Honor. Good morning, everybody. Jim Berger and Steve DeFeo on behalf of Hollingsworth & Vose. THE COURT: Thank you. And on behalf of the defendant Whittaker Clark & Daniels. MR. DUNST: Good morning, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Alan Dunst and Daniel Kuszmerski on behalf of Whittaker Clark & Daniels. MR. MAIMON: Thank you. Okay. So members of the jury, you may recall when we were last here we heard some testimony of Mr. Orcutt. We're going to interrupt -- I don't know that we're finished with that. We are going to interrupt that in order to accommodate a witness and present to you live testimony. The defendants Hollingsworth & Vose and Lorillard may now call their next witness. MR. CEDILLO: Thank you, your Honor. We would call Dr. Victor Roggli at this time. 11 (Pages 4835 - 4838) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4839 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Good morning, Dr. Roggli. VICTOR ROGGLI, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: Whenever you're ready. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CEDILLO: Q. Good morning, sir. Would you give us your full name for the record? A. Victor Louis Roggli. Q. And that's R-O-G-G-L-I. A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Dr. Roggli, where do you live, sir? A. I live in Durham, North Carolina. Q. And what do you do for a living? A. I'm a physician that's specifically a pathologist. Q. All right, sir. We're will going to get into a little bit of detail about what all that means. Okay? A. Sure. Q. Let's start with your educational background, please. Where did you receive your undergraduate training, sir? A. I did my undergraduate work at Rice University in Houston, Texas, and received a B.A. Page 4841 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4840 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 degree in biochemistry and environmental engineering in 1973. Q. And -THE COURT: I'm sorry. One moment. MR. DEFEO: Could we have the screen? THE COURT: Sorry, Doctor. We were discussing Dr. Roggli's bachelor of arts degree. MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. And if this thing is working, we will have a nice emblem of Rice University. The Fighting Rice Owls of Houston, Texas. They're better known for their marching band than any athletic team. That's another topic for discussion. THE COURT: You seem ready to discuss it. MR. CEDILLO: No, I'm a Southwest Conference kind of guy. Q. Anyway, Doctor, that's the Rice University we were talking about. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. And you graduated in 1973 with your bachelor's in biochemistry and environmental engineering. And where did you continue your education at that point, sir? A. Well, at that point I went across the street to Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, and received by M.D. degree from Baylor in 1976. Q. All right, sir. Are you a member or do you hold any professional certifications or licenses, and so forth? A. I do. Q. And we'll get to that. At Baylor College, you ended up being an instructor of some kind? A. Yes. As a chief resident, I was an instructor in pathology. I helped teach the -- the medical students. That was after I had finished my M.D. degree in '76 and was training to be a pathologist from 1976 to 1980. Q. And you are a licensed doctor, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. And where do you hold licenses? A. In the State of North Carolina. Q. Have you had one in the State of Texas? A. I have, yes. Q. All right. And is your license in the State of Texas current? A. No, it's not. Q. Okay. But the one in North Carolina -A. North Carolina. Page 4842 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. -- is where you work and practice? A. Yes, it is. Q. And your professional certification, what is the American Board of Pathology, sir? A. Well, the American Board of Pathology is an organization that tries to ensure that those who practice the specialty of pathology are competent to do so. And the way they do that is they have certain requirements for your training, certain number of years. So the four years that I had at Baylor College of Medicine satisfied that. Then once you complete your training, you have to take a written examination, which at the time that I did my -- my work in that area, it was a three-day examination. And then if you make a certain minimal score on that exam, then the American Board of Pathology would declare you as being competent to practice their specialty. Q. And what is the American Board of Forensic Medicine, Doctor? A. Well, that's a group that is especially interested in the investigation of -- of circumstances. A lot of times they're related to death, so like a medical examiner would do. Quincy, 12 (Pages 4839 - 4842) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4843 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for example, that sort of examination. And it's not -- it doesn't include all pathologists, but it does include specialists who are not M.D.s who have expertise in certain areas, like fingerprint analysis, that sort of thing. Q. And are you a member of this Board, sir? A. I am. Q. Okay. Let's talk about your current employment. You are at Duke University, sir? A. I am. Q. And what do you do there? A. I am professor of pathology there. And my work typically involves teaching medical students and residents. I also do research and -- and then I have a consultation service. Q. All right, sir. Let's talk about you being a pathologist. You mentioned the term a couple of times. What does a pathologist do, sir? A. Well, pathology literally means the study of disease. A pathologist is a physician who makes diagnoses either from looking at a sample of -- that a surgeon might take, for example, under a microscope to make a diagnosis; or a pathologist makes diagnoses based on fluid samples sent to the Page 4845 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4844 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 laboratory, such as a blood, urine, or spinal fluid sample. Q. All right, sir. And so what is it that you're actually examining as a pathologist? A. Yeah. So what we do is we get tissues sent to the laboratory. When a surgeon or a physician wants to know what's going on with their patient and they have tissue samples to figure that out, then what they do is send those tissue samples to the laboratory, and those are prepared to make slides and a stain that a pathologist can then look at under a microscope. And that's what we do. And we work with the treating doctors to find out what information is going on to help them come to the best diagnosis. Q. And what is it exactly that you're looking for when you get these tissues and cells under a microscope, sir? A. Well, it depends on what the circumstances are. But in general, we're looking, first of all, is this a cancerous process or a noncancerous process. And if it's not a neoplastic, not a cancerous process, there's a certain pathway we go down to try to figure out what's going on. If it's a cancer, we want to decide what type of cancer is it, where did it likely come from. Did they biopsy the primary site, or is this likely a spread from some other source. So we help the physicians figure that out. Q. All right, sir. And, Doctor, do you specialize in a particular field of pathology or particular organs? A. I do. Q. And what is that, sir? A. My specialty of area is lung pathology. And I've especially been interested in diseases caused by exposures to dusts, mineral dusts. Q. So the mineral-induced diseases that this jury has heard a little bit about from other witnesses? A. Yes, sir. Q. That's your specialty? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. And we're going to explore that, sir. What types of minerals can cause lung disease in people, sir? A. Well, there are a number. The one I think that certainly received most publicity in this country is asbestos. Then coal dust can -- can cause Page 4846 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lung diseases. Exposures to talc can cause some lung diseases. Exposure to silica or quartz, such as from sandblasting, can cause diseases. And there's a variety of less common class of minerals you can be exposed to that can cause lung diseases. Q. And have you particularly focused on studying mineral-induced lung diseases, Doctor, in your career? A. I have. Q. And what types of lung diseases can be caused in humans by minerals, sir? A. Well, there a big general category, what we call of scarring of the -- of the lungs, and there's different patterns of scarring you see with different minerals. So we're looking to see if you can find scars in the tissues and what the pattern is, if we can relate it to a certain type of exposure. For some dusts, like asbestos, there are also cancers that can be caused by the disease. So we're looking to see if we can identify and diagnose those cancers accurately, and then try to determine whether they're asbestos-related. And then for -- especially for asbestos, there's diseases of the pleura, scarring of the 13 (Pages 4843 - 4846) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4847 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pleura and calcification, what we call pleural plaques. And that's something which we also can look for pathologically, as well as radiographically by X-rays. Q. And I believe other witnesses have informed the jury about the pleura, which is the lining of the lung? A. Yes, sir. Q. That's an accurate description, sir? A. Yes. Q. Now, there's a difference between a cancer that occurs in the lung versus a cancer that occurs in the lining of the lung, the pleura. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you studied both? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And the disease that attacks the lining of the lung, sir, is that mesothelioma? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Now, what kind of studies have you been involved with regarding asbestos and mesothelioma, just generally? A. Well, I'd say there's two large areas that I've been involved with. One is making the Page 4849 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4848 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correct diagnosis. So I've been involved in doing studies looking at the various staging procedures that help us separate mesothelioma from other diseases it can be confused with. Because cancers that metastasize or spread to the pleura are a lot more common than mesothelioma is. So you have to make sure you're actually dealing with a mesothelioma, and there's certain procedures you do to try to make that decision. The other area I'm involved with is determining about the causation of mesothelioma, and we've done that in my laboratory by analyzing lung tissue for its types and amounts of asbestos. Q. Okay. The actual diagnosis, there could be experts that disagree whether or not something is mesothelioma. A. That can happen. Q. Okay. And then the other area that you've dedicated your career is actually studying, what, to determine causation? What is it that you actually look at and delve into? A. We look at lung tissue samples and determine the types and amounts of asbestos that are present. Q. Okay. And we'll get into a lot more detail on that in a minute, sir. Let's stay with the diagnostic side as opposed to -- by the way, the second part of what you've dedicated, does that have a term or descriptive words that we can summarize it as, sir? A. Well, I think there's a number of terms you could use. Some people will call it fiber analysis, some would call it digestion study. But those are the categories. Q. All right, sir. Let's stay with diagnosis issues first and then we'll talk about the fiber digestion and fiber analysis, sir. What are the diagnostic issues for mesothelioma, Doctor? A. Well, first, we have to decide is it a malignant process or not. Because it can be difficult to separate mesothelioma from just benign changes that occur from -- let's say you get inflammation, an infection involved in the pleura. The lining cells of the pleura react to that infection. They become very angry-looking and enlarged, and you have to be careful that you don't call that as being a malignancy. So there's a number of ways we can do an approach to make sure we're dealing with a cancer and not a reactive process. Page 4850 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And then, as I mentioned, there are many cancers that can spread to the pleura secondarily and mimic a mesothelioma, but actually they're cancers that start from somewhere else. So we need to be able to identify those accurately, as well. Q. And what do you do in dealing with diagnostic issues? Is there a professional association or organization that you belong to that deals specifically with the issues of confusion of cells and getting the right diagnosis, sir? A. Well, there's actually several, I would say. The first one that comes to mind is the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel, which is a group of 12 physicians who have a special interest in the diagnosis of mesothelioma. We act as a referral panel to give second opinions to other doctors who either have difficult cases; or because mesothelioma is a relatively rare disease, a pathologist may not be comfortable making the diagnosis and will send it to us to see if we agree. So there's also an International Mesothelioma Panel which contains members from the U.S./Canadian panel, the French panel, the British panel, the Australian panel and Japanese panel. So I'm a member of that panel, as well. 14 (Pages 4847 - 4850) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4851 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4853 And also, the Pulmonary Pathology 1 Society, in general, which was formed in about 1995, 2 I believe, is also very interested in the disease of 3 mesothelioma. So we've -- and there's an 4 International Mesothelioma Interest Group Pathology 5 Panel that has written about the diagnosis of this 6 disease, as well. 7 Q. All right. Let's -- let's spend a 8 little time on the U.S./Canadian panel, sir. You 9 said it's made up of 12 members? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 12 it's made up of 12 from the U.S. and Canada together? 13 A. It's close. There's one from the United 14 Kingdom also on the panel. 15 Q. What, you just counted them as part of 16 Canada? 17 All right, sir. And there's only 12 18 that comprise this board? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you're one of them? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Is -- I'm not asking you to toot your 23 own horn, but is that a pretty big deal that you sit 24 on a panel like this as a resource for other doctors? 25 Page 4852 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well, I think so. I think it indicates that I have a recognized expertise in the area, yes, sir. Q. So -- and just on a simple example. There's a doctor or a pathologist somewhere that doesn't know whether or not he's looking at mesothelioma, and he'll send it to you guys, you 12? A. Yes. Q. And then what happens? A. The person who is the chairman of the panel looks at the case; and if it's an easy case, he'll just write a report based on -- based on the panel and send it back. If it's a difficult case, or a very interesting case, he will then send out slides from the case to each of the panel members, and we have a standard form which we fill out about each case and send it back to him. And then he will take the opinions of the group and pass that on to the doctor who referred the case. Q. All right. And then the other organizations that expand beyond the U.S. and Canada that you mentioned, you're a member of those, as well? A. I am. Q. All of them that you mentioned? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the one that's international, how many members make that up, sir? A. I think it's around 15 members. Q. Any of the other gentlemen or ladies from the U.S./Canadian also on the international panel, other than yourself? A. Yes. Q. So it's probably a small group of go-to people that you make yourself available to other doctors to assist in the diagnostic problems that come with mesothelioma? A. Yeah. The International Mesothelioma Panel is a little different because we don't look at individual cases. Instead, we meet every year in the spring with the United States/Canadian Academy of Pathology meeting, and we discuss the interesting and important topics about the disease. So we are more of an -- the International Mesothelioma Panel is more of an academic organization. We publish -- we published a monograph and have -- have been involved with other publications, as well. Q. And on average, how many cases do you get to work on as part of this work, being a member Page 4854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of these panels, sir, in, say, a 12-month period? A. It varies. I would say maybe we get, these days, Dr. Churg publishes about one case a month maybe. Over the years I've been a member of the panel, I would say that I've probably seen 500 or 600 mesotheliomas associated with that. Q. And are you compensated for that, Doctor? A. No. Q. Now, do you have other areas of research in addition to asbestos and mesothelioma? Do you look at other -- other topics, other areas as a researcher? A. Yes. I'd say that -- that of the articles and chapters in books that I've written, 95 percent, at least, deal with some aspect of lung pathology. So other aspects of lung pathology, like, diagnosis of lung cancer is an area that I've been interested in. We've mentioned pneumoconiosis, other than asbestos, I've written and published about. So there's been a number of things along those lines. Q. And are you involved in case reports on unique presentations of tumors, for example? A. Sure. 15 (Pages 4851 - 4854) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4855 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And you've done case reports on unique types of asbestos exposures? A. Yes. Q. Has that been part of your research throughout the years? A. It has. Q. Okay. And do you do these studies just on individual patients, Doctor? A. Sometimes if it's a very interesting or very rare association, we'll report it in an individual case report. But most of the time it's a group -- a number of different cases that are related in some way that we put together into -- into one study. Q. So you -- you study them in groups or cohorts? A. Typically, yes. Q. While we're on it, do you think a case report is an epidemiological study, Doctor? A. No, it is not. Q. Can a case report, no matter how unique it is, you as a scientist and as a medical researcher, can you think of any reason why an industrial hygienist expert would come here and tell this jury that a single case report can be an Page 4857 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4856 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 epidemiological study? A. No, I don't think so. Case reports, I've always been taught it's a suggestion about a possible association. And then once you have the case reports, it's necessary to either do animal studies or epidemiological studies to confirm. It's what we call a hypothesis-generating process. So we find a single case report that says, hey, there may be something going on. We need to do additional studies to see is it, in fact, going on and what are the mechanisms that are causing it to happen. Q. And Doctor, you have done epidemiological studies on asbestos and mesothelioma, have you not? A. I'd say I haven't done the formal epidemiological studies that are -- that are the typical -- typical ones that -- longitudinal studies or cross-sectional studies. But I think that we've looked at very large numbers of cases, so they can be known as descriptive epidemiological studies. Q. All right, sir. Let's talk about the fiber digestion, or I've heard the term fiber burden analysis. A. Yes, sir. Q. What is a fiber burden analysis, Doctor? A. Well, that's an attempt to determine how much and what types of asbestos are present in lung tissue samples. And it was determined many years ago, in 1968, and then again in 1972, that everybody has some amounts of asbestos in their lungs. And so just simply to say there's asbestos present doesn't mean anything. You have to quantify. You have to compare it with a proper control group. And so that indicates what a fiber burden analysis study is. Q. And when you do a fiber burden analysis, you actually look at lung tissue? A. Yes, we take lung tissue samples. You dissolve them or get -- you've got to get rid of the organic matrix of the lung, itself, in which the fibers are embedded so that you can then look at -- carefully look at the fibers. So you come up with something that will destroy the tissue but not the fibers. And a simple way to do that that is very popular is to use Clorox bleach, just like you can buy off a grocery store shelf, because it will dissolve the lung tissue away and leave the mineral fibers, mineral particles behind. You can then concentrate them on the surface of a filter and study Page 4858 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that filter, quantify the amounts of asbestos present. Q. All right. Sir, once you have digested away the tissue and you're left only with the minerals, you look at it how, sir? A. We look at it two ways. One is with the regular light microscope, and count structures that we call asbestos bodies, and those are fibers that have been coated with this golden brown protein iron material that allows us to see it with a regular light microscope. So we use a regular light microscope to count asbestos bodies. And then we use a form of electron microscopy to look at mineral fibers, many of which are too small to be seen with the light microscope, beyond the resolution of the light microscope, and that has an attachment which allows us to determine the actual fibers that are present. We can focus the electron beam on the individual particle or fiber and collect a spectrum of X-rays that tell us what the elemental nature of that fiber is, and that it gives us a fingerprint of what type of fiber that is. Q. And, Doctor, that is a process that you personally are involved in, looking through the microscope and conducting this analysis, sir? 16 (Pages 4855 - 4858) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4859 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It is. Q. Okay. And how many lung fiber burden -- fiber burden analysis of lungs, how many would you estimate you've performed in your career, sir? A. There's over 2,600 filters that I've counted with the light microscope for asbestos body counts. And there's more than 1,300 separate cases that we've looked at with the electron microscope to determine the amount of fibers that are present. Q. And, Doctor, currently do you have a database of these fiber burden results that you've conducted and been involved in? A. Yes. Q. And when you do a fiber burden analysis, do you do it in your lab? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You don't send that out anywhere, you do it yourself. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. How do you identify the types of asbestos fibers or the minerals that -- particles that you're looking at? What process do you use to actually identify the specific particles and types of minerals that are being examined? Page 4861 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4860 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well, I started doing this in 1976 when I was still a resident in training in pathology. So the first thing we had to do was get samples of known asbestos that we could analyze and see what sort of a fingerprint you'd expect, or spectrum you'd expect to get from them. So we did that. And there were some samples called UICC samples that you can write off for and get. And then, once you know what the asbestos fiber types, various asbestos fiber types look like with the spectrum, then you can find the fibers with the electron microscope. And you focus your electron beam and you collect a spectrum that tells you what the composition of that fiber actually is. Q. And then you've got the sample that you've broken down and analyzed, and you get to match them up to see what it is that you actually examined and looked at. A. Correct. Q. Okay. Is it -- is it an easy process to be able to look at mineral particles and determine what type of asbestos it is, sir? A. Well, it's -- it's really not rocket science. But there's certain procedures you've got to follow, and -- and in order -- and it's tedious to do. It's time-consuming. Takes an ability to concentrate. And I think that people who have a little bit of obsessive compulsive disorder are probably better at doing it than others. That's me. I have a little bit of OCD. So, yeah, it's tedious and it's difficult and time-consuming to do, but it's -- it's -- it's a recipe, and it's pretty easy to follow. Q. And this database that you've compiled with these thousands of fiber burden cases that you've examined, sir, what kind of information are you compiling to create this database? A. Well, we have information about who the patient is, when we wrote our report, who sent it to us, whether it's from a plaintiff attorney or a defense attorney, or from another doctor. It has what the Duke number was, what the specimen number is, because we give a number to each pathology specimen that comes into the laboratory. And of course, the hospital it came from has its own specimen number, so we have that number also in the database. I think I mentioned the daily report. Page 4862 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Then we also have the diagnosis of the patient. Any additional diagnosis that might be of importance. We have information about what the person's exposure was and how long they were exposed. And we have information about if they smoked and how much they smoked; and if they quit, when they quit. We have information about if they had the disease asbestosis, which is scarring of the lungs from asbestos; if they have the disease pleural plaques; whether or not we did a fiber analysis. And from those that we did a fiber analysis on, then there's a whole string of columns of information we fill in based on what we found. Q. And over what period of time have you been compiling or adding to this database, Doctor? A. Well, I collected the cases. I think the very first cases that I had in my files was from about 1981, not very long after I got to Duke. And I saved files on those cases, and when I met my -- my wife in 1990, she was much more computer savvy than I was, so she helped me develop a database that would allow me to put information about the cases in. So that's when I started, in 1990. So from that point on, I added the new cases in. And then every week I'd try to go through 17 (Pages 4859 - 4862) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4863 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ten of the old files and add them in until I caught up to present day. And then around 2000 we converted to another type of database which is much more user-friendly and compatible with Microsoft documents. And so I continued to add the cases as we get them. And another thing about the database is it's a living database. If I get new information about a case in that I didn't have before, then I can change what was in the database before by putting that new information in. Q. Doctor, what role has that database had in terms of your research you've done to advance medical and scientific knowledge? A. Well, the research questions that -- that we study, they come from up here. They come from the experience that I have working with the cases, looking at cases. I may say, you know, it seems that this is something that is happening that we're seeing here, we should study this and look and see if that's the case or not. It's sort of a hypothesis-generating process. The database actually serves -- it's a convenience for going and rapidly finding the Page 4865 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4864 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information without having to go back to an entire file and go through it all over again, reinventing the wheel, so to speak. So I look at it as being a convenience, a shortcut. Q. Sure. Now, Doctor, let's move on to another general topic. During your career, and as a result of this research that you've generally described, sir, have you learned about the use of the different types of asbestos fibers in products? A. I have. Q. Okay. And have you learned about the use of the different fiber types of asbestos in the workplace? A. Yes. Q. And you've mentioned and the jury has heard some about electron microscopy. Is that something that you've worked hands-on with? A. It is. Q. And consider yourself competent and capable in that area, as well? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about your publications, sir. Have you published scientific papers; and if so, how many? A. In the peer-reviewed literature, I think there's more than 200 papers on my CV that have either been published or accepted for publication in the scientific literature. Q. And have any of these publications been on asbestos and asbestos-related diseases? A. I would say about half, or a little more than half, have something to do with asbestos or asbestos-related diseases. Q. When is the first time you published on asbestos and asbestos-related disease, Doctor? A. I think it was 1979 or 1980. Q. When did you get your medical degree? A. 1976 I got my medical degree, and finished my residency training in 1980. Q. So right about the time you finished your residency, you were already publishing in this area? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And have you published any books on asbestos or asbestos-related diseases, Doctor? A. I have. Q. Okay. What is the Pathology of Asbestos-Associated Diseases? Page 4866 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well, that's a textbook that I first put together with two of my mentors, Dr. Greenberg and Dr. Pratt. And I think it was about 1987 that I started working on it, because I was working on medicolegal cases, and the reports, I had to put all these different references, and I thought, boy, it sure would be nice if all of these were in one place. And I thought, we should write a book and put it in one place. So I spent about five years putting the book together with my two mentors, and it was published in 1992, was the first edition. Then our second edition came out in 2004, which I published with a couple of my trainees. And then in 2014 the third edition came out with those same two trainees. Q. All right, sir. I have the third edition here. I may refer to it, so let me put it up there for you. And who uses this book? How do you find it? A. Well, since it talks about pathology, pathologists would refer to it. I think any doctor who is dealing with a case of -- of possible asbestos-related disease could -- could find some useful information there. People who do research in 18 (Pages 4863 - 4866) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4867 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the area may refer to it, and that would include radiologists who are interested in asbestos or lung diseases. Pulmonologists, pathologists. So there's lots of different specialties that have been involved. But I've often been told that I sold more copies of the book to lawyers than anybody else. Q. Including this one. Doctor, you said the first edition was with your mentors. Who are your co-authors in this third edition, sir? A. The third edition, the co-authors are Tim Oury, who was my first trainee in 1996; and Dr. Tom Sporn, who was my second trainee in 1997. Q. And what topics are generally covered in this third edition, sir, the current one? A. Well, we try to cover everything asbestos-related. The first chapter, we say what asbestos is. The second chapter is more or less where you can get exposed to asbestos. The third chapter is dedicated to talking about asbestos bodies that I mentioned earlier. The fourth chapter talks about the disease asbestosis. Page 4869 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4868 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The fifth chapter talks about the disease mesothelioma, specifically about the diagnosis and causation of that disease. Chapter 6 deals with benign pleural diseases, like pleural plaques that I mentioned previously. Chapter 7 deals with lung cancer. Chapter 8 deals with other cancers that have been suggested to be associated with asbestos. Chapter 9 deals with the use of cytopathology, which is a special branch of pathology that looks at individual cells rather than tissue, and how it can be useful in asbestos-related diseases. Chapter 10 talks about experimental animal studies, what they helped us to learn about asbestos. Chapter 11 talks about fiber analysis. Then the last two chapters are written by lawyers, one by plaintiff's side, the other by the defense side, talking about how they see pathology as being helpful to their cases. Q. Okay. And throughout the various topics that you've listed in all these chapters, sir, would the topic of the historical uses of asbestos be treated? A. Yes. In many of the chapters there is a section called "Historical Background," which sort of gives the basic information. On asbestosis, for example, when did we first learn about asbestosis and when were the first publications, when was the term first used in literature. So that information is in there, yes. Q. So in addition to historical use of asbestos, you would find in your book the development of the scientific and medical knowledge about asbestos, Doctor? A. To some degree, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And would you have discussions in there on the types of asbestos that have been used in the United States? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And how people have been exposed to asbestos, including occupations and asbestos-containing products. Is that a topic that we would find there? A. Yes. Q. And how asbestos fibers enter the body and the effects of asbestos fibers on humans and in animal research. Would that be a topic covered Page 4870 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are all those topics that you're knowledgeable and comfortable discussing with us if I were to ask you some questions about it? A. Sure. Q. Okay. Are there any other books on asbestos or asbestos-related diseases that you've published, sir? A. I've published other books that -- that deal somewhat with that issue. We -- one of my colleagues and I published two editions of a book. One book called Microprobe Analysis in Medicine, which is basically that technique I was telling you about, identifying a particle under a microscope and figuring out what its elemental composition was, its fingerprint was from a spectrum. So that book deals with that issue and how it's used in pathology in general, especially lung pathology. And the second edition of that book was called Biomedical Applications of Microprobe Analysis. And both of those have sections in them about asbestos. Q. Okay. What about "The Pathology of Malignant Mesothelioma"? Is that a publication that 19 (Pages 4867 - 4870) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4871 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you were involved in? A. "Pathology of Malignant Mesothelioma," I believe, was a monograph that was put together by members of the International Mesothelioma Panel. I mentioned that we were mainly a research panel, that we met on a yearly basis. And the chairman of the panel was involved with putting the book together, but each of us had a contribution which we wrote into -- I have called it a monograph, in that it's a very limited focused topic but goes into great detail on it. Q. All right, sir. New topic, Doctor. Can you tell us what the Helsinki Symposium on Asbestos, Asbestosis and Cancer, what was that? What is that? A. Yes, that met initially in January of 1997 in Helsinki, Finland. And there were 19 people around the world who were invited to participate in that meeting, and I was one of the individuals who participated in that. And so we met for three days in Helsinki to try to come to a consensus about how do you diagnose asbestos-related diseases and how do you determine when asbestos is the cause. Q. Now, you said there were 19 Page 4873 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4872 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 internationally? A. Yes. Q. And you were one of them? A. Yes. Q. How many of that 19 were from the United States? A. Four. Q. So you are one of four from this country that participated in this symposium? A. Correct. Q. All right, sir. And what -- what were you trying to accomplish or what was your goal and objective, and did you meet it? A. Yeah. I think we did meet it. We were trying to determine how do you go about diagnosing asbestos-related diseases, which -- which we wrote a monograph about 100 pages long that details about that, with a number of chapters in that monograph. And then about how to determine when the -- when the disease is related. And I think we gave some good general guidelines for other physicians to use. Q. So it's -- it's a published criteria now of attribution of asbestos-related diseases you might find in people? A. Yes. Q. And when was it first published? A. 1997. Q. And has it been in effect or in use since that time, sir? A. Yes. And we met again in February of 2014, and there were certain topics which we addressed and updated, and that was also published as a monograph, and then as an article which was a summary of what the monograph says. Q. And we've got the cover of one that has a 2014 in its title. Is that the most recent one, sir? A. It is. Q. And, again, you've been involved with them since they first met back in the '90s? A. Yes. Q. All right, Doctor. Now, you work at Duke University. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Do you have any other duties at Duke in addition to this diagnostic work that you've been describing, sir? A. Yeah. I think I mentioned earlier that Page 4874 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I'm involved as a teacher. I teach medical students and residents in training, which we have a residency program for training individuals to become pathologists. And I also do the research work. Q. All right, sir. And you teach pathology to medical students? A. I do. Q. And how long have you been doing that at Duke, sir? A. Thirty-one years. Q. Now, are you part of any other professional organization other than the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel that we've discussed, sir? A. Yes. Q. I think you mentioned the International Mesothelioma Panel? A. Yes. Q. What is the American College of Chest Physicians? A. That is a college of physicians who are especially interested in diseases of the chest. That would include surgeons who are members of that. Radiologists are members. Pulmonologists are members. Occupational medicine doctors are members, 20 (Pages 4871 - 4874) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4875 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and pathologists, as well. Q. And are you a member of that organization? A. Yes. Q. What is the Microscopy Society of America, MSA? A. Yeah, that's an organization which is of individuals who use microscopic techniques for different purposes. Maybe for forensic purposes. It may be for teaching purposes. It may be for diagnostic purposes. Q. And is that the one that you've got to be diagnosed as obsessive compulsive before you can join? A. You don't have to be, but I think it helps. Q. All right, sir. You've told us about the International Mesothelioma Panel a little earlier, did you not? A. Yes. Q. All right, sir. And you're a member of all these organizations and have been for many years? A. Yes. Q. All right, sir. Now, you've been studying Page 4877 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4876 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asbestos-associated diseases for about, what, 40 years now? A. Correct. Q. All right, sir. And how many mesothelioma cases would you estimate that you've reviewed in this 40-year time span, Doctor? A. In my own private consultation files, last week we hit case number 4,000 of mesotheliomas that I've seen in consultation. And in addition, I think I mentioned five or six hundred additional cases I've seen with the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel. Only a very few of those overlap with the cases in my consultations files. And then probably another 100 or 200 that I've seen over the years, the 35 years I've been at Duke and the VA. Q. Duke and the VA? A. Yeah, Durham VA Hospital. I actually was there from 1980 to September of 2006. Q. All right, sir. And are all these cases that you've just described, have they made their way into your database? A. The 4,000 have. Not the cases that are patients at Duke, private patients at Duke, unless they were referred to us to do a fiber analysis. And then they're probably in the database. If I did a fiber analysis, they are in the database. And then the cases of the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel are not in my database, no. Q. All right, sir. And have you specifically published in the medical and scientific literature on topics where your database was used as a resource? A. Yes. Q. Tell us about that, if you could quickly, sir. How have you used the database to publish articles on asbestos-associated diseases? A. Well, in 1993, I wrote a paper with a couple of my colleagues saying that amosite is the main type of asbestos fiber that you find in mesothelioma patients in the United States. And that was a study of 94 patients. It was very heavily loaded with people who were insulators or shipyard workers. So even though amosite was the main fiber type, I was a bit concerned that -- that that may have been heavily influenced by the fact that we had lots of insulators and lots of shipyard workers. So I had a fellow who -- who was working with me, my Page 4878 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 third fellow in training, who was interested in a project. And it turned out that she had access to someone, her husband, who was a computer ace and who could take my old archaic database and upgrade it into a much more user-friendly form. And so we asked the question, okay, let's look at the occupational groups of mesothelioma and see how they are classified, and then look at the cases where we've done fiber analysis in those cases and see if amosite continues to be a main cause of asbestos in the United States regardless of what the occupational category is. So we asked that question. The database was then able to find the patients for which we had diagnosed mesothelioma and for which we knew something about their exposure information, there was something entered under "Exposure" column, and that's how the study proceeded. Q. All right, sir. And that study was in the '90s, I think you said? A. It was about right around 2000, because I think we finished the study in 2001. It was published in 2002. Q. Okay. And in 2002, did you publish the article that's referred to in the scientific and 21 (Pages 4875 - 4878) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4879 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 medical literature as the 1,445 case article? A. Yes. Q. What was that one, sir? A. That was the one I was just talking about where we had 1,445 mesothelioma patients where we knew something about what their exposure information was. So then we could see what sort of categories these cases fell into, and look into more detail as to what we found in terms of diseases they had, accessory conditions they had, and what fiber analysis showed. Q. And the jury has heard from others, and I'm confident you'll agree, sir, that asbestos is a cause of mesothelioma. A. Yes, sir. Q. And in your experience based on the research you've conducted, the database that you've maintained, and so forth, do asbestos-caused mesotheliomas tend to occur in any particular group or groupings of people? A. Yes. One of the interesting things we found from the study is that over 90 percent of our cases fit into one of 12 industries, one of six occupations, or one particular nonoccupational group. And the study was really a limited number of types of Page 4881 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4880 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exposures out there that were accounting for almost all of the 1,445 mesotheliomas that we studied. Q. And how would you describe the physical characteristics of the people that are getting asbestos-associated diseases, sir, by gender? A. First of all, we found -- and it's not unexpected at all -- the vast majority were men, because historically men were the ones who were involved in the occupations where there was a significant exposure to asbestos. And secondly, the vast majority of them were pleural mesotheliomas, because that's by far -- the ones that occur in the chest are the ones by far are the most common mesotheliomas. Q. And so for the men who have mesothelioma, sir, what percentage is caused by exposure at the workplace? A. What we found by analyzing lung tissue samples is that 86 percent of our men with pleural mesothelioma have an abnormal elevated asbestos content, and the vast majority of those were from workplace exposure. Q. All right. Now, during these four decades of work in this field, sir, have you identified causes of mesothelioma other than asbestos? A. Sure. Q. They do exist? A. Yes. Q. And what are some of these other causes that may be out there, sir? A. Well, it's well recognized that radiation, prior radiation, therapeutic radiation is a cause of mesothelioma. We actually just published a study last year looking at people who have had one type of cancer that's common in childhood or young adults for which they almost always get radiation. There's a high percentage of cures, and so there's a high percentage that live another 20 or 30 years, and a significant number of those were developing mesothelioma. So that's one recognized cause is therapeutic radiation. Another is other mineral fibers that are not classified as asbestos; but from looking under a microscope, they have a lot of features that are similar to asbestos. One is called erionite. Another one is called fluoro-edenite. The erionite has been mainly causes of mesothelioma in the country of Turkey, and the fluoro-edenite in the country of Sicily. Page 4882 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Then there are cases that are related to inflammation, chronic inflammation for long periods of time. One disease that can cause chronic inflammation in tissues for a long period of time is tuberculosis. So it's been recognized that some people get tuberculosis involving the pleural space that just smolders there for decades. And a few of those patients have gone on to develop mesothelioma in those areas. So chronic inflammation is thought to be a precursor in some cases. Q. The jury has heard from others, let me ask you the question. During your decades-long study of mesothelioma, have you learned whether cigarette smoking can cause mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. And can it? A. No, I don't think it's -- it does not have an effect on mesothelioma. Someone suggested that what happens in cigarette smoking, it interferes with normal clearance mechanisms, so that can result in more fibers than usual in the lung. But cigarette smoking also causes your airways to become narrower and have a thicker mucus blanket, so that can cause less fibers to get to the periphery of the lung. So you don't know which of those is more important, and 22 (Pages 4879 - 4882) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4883 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 epidemiological studies show no effects of smoking on lung cancer rates. So apparently those two factors are a wash, they cancel each other out. Q. And then just to close out the subject, sir. Are there some causes of mesothelioma that you just cannot explain the cause? A. Yes. Q. And what do you call those, and do they occur? A. Yes. In our database, my database, about 14 percent of mesotheliomas in men and 16 percent of all the mesotheliomas that we have are -- have asbestos contents not different from a control population. No evidence they're asbestos-related. And those are called idiopathic or spontaneous mesotheliomas. Q. All right, Doctor. Now, sir, you're here to give some opinion testimony to questions that I ask you. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Doctor, can we agree that any of your answers that you're giving and opinions that you're going to offer, you're going to give those answers today within a reasonable degree of scientific and Page 4885 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4884 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 medical certainty, Doctor? A. Yes, sir. Q. We can agree on that? A. Yes, sir. Q. And I'm going to ask you now a series of questions to establish the summary of what I'm going to be offering you as an expert on. Okay? A. Sure. Q. So in conjunction with your own research, Doctor, your own publishing and your teaching, do you study the medical and scientific research and literature related to asbestos and disease? A. I do. Q. And based on your research and experience, are you familiar with the types and characteristics of asbestos fibers? A. I am. Q. And are you familiar with the historical uses of different types of asbestos fibers in different categories of products? A. Yes. Q. And are you familiar with the types of asbestos fibers commonly found in different kinds of workplaces and in environments historically? A. Yes. Q. And based on your research and experience, do you understand the potential causes of mesothelioma, Doctor? A. Yes. Q. And based on your research and experience, do you understand the types of asbestos fiber exposures that are associated specifically with mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. Are you familiar with the historical progression of the science on the levels and types of asbestos exposures that are associated with disease? A. Yes. Q. And are you familiar with how the human body processes inhaled particles and fibers? A. Yes. Q. And have you reviewed the medical records of Mr. Argento, the plaintiff in this case? A. I have. Q. And have you reviewed the deposition testimony and other materials that describe Mr. Argento's smoking history and potential asbestos exposure? A. I have. Page 4886 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And have you reviewed materials regarding the analysis of the original Kent cigarettes by Dr. William Longo? A. I have. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, at this time I would offer Dr. Roggli as an expert witness on the subjects of lung pathology, asbestos and asbestos-associated disease. THE COURT: Any objection? MR. MAIMON: No objection. MR. DUNST: No objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. This witness is now qualified as an expert in lung pathology, asbestos and asbestos-related disease. MR. CEDILLO: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: You know what? Rather than interrupt your direct, because we're close to our break time, we'll take the morning break now. Fifteen minutes. Leave your notebooks here. Remember all the instructions I've provided during the course of this trial. A member of my staff will pick you up downstairs at 10:30. (The jury leave the courtroom.) THE COURT: All right. And we're off the record. I'll see everyone in 15 minutes. 23 (Pages 4883 - 4886) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4887 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4889 (A recess is taken.) 1 (The jury enters the courtroom. The 2 following takes place in the presence of the jury.) 3 MR. CEDILLO: May I proceed, your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Cedillo. 5 MR. CEDILLO: Thank you. 6 Q. Doctor, you had mentioned that the book 7 that we brought out, the third edition, you said 8 something about probably more lawyers have been 9 buying it than doctors? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you mentioned that the last chapter, 12 one is written from a plaintiff's lawyer perspective 13 and one chapter is written by a defendant lawyer 14 perspective. Is that correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. I gather, then, we can safely conclude 17 that you, Doctor, have been involved in 18 asbestos-related litigation as part of your work 19 these four decades? 20 A. I have. 21 Q. Okay, sir. 22 Now, when did you begin your involvement 23 in asbestos-related litigation, Doctor? 24 A. I'd say probably the first case that I 25 Page 4888 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 saw that was a litigation case was 1981, though I was neither deposed in it nor did I testify in that case. Probably around '82 or '83, I had the first depositions done and testified in some work comp cases. And then in 1985 was the first jury trial that I testified in. Q. Okay. And, Doctor, since the '80s through today, have you involved yourself in litigation on both sides of the docket, the plaintiff and the defense side? A. I have. Q. And have your opinions on asbestos and asbestos-associated disease, have they changed over the years, Doctor? A. Sure. They've been refined from a number of issues as more information became available. Q. And have you testified in the past regarding Kent cigarettes with the asbestos-containing filter material, what we've called the original Kent cigarette? Have you testified in original Kent cases before, Doctor? A. I have. Q. And did you testify for the plaintiff or the defense? A. Plaintiff. Q. Have you ever testified for the defense of the Kent original filter before this case? A. No -- well, in terms of in a court? Q. Yes. A. If you consider depositions testimony, I've given depositions. Q. But in court. Now, have you testified for Lorillard Tobacco Company Kent, or were you testifying for Hollingsworth & Vose? A. The latter. Q. The latter. So for Kent cigarettes, for Lorillard Tobacco, have you been a person who has testified on behalf of the original Kent cigarette? A. I don't think so. Q. But you have testified against the original Kent cigarette. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And we're going to explore that, sir. Let's do that now. When you testified against the Kent -- original Kent cigarette, sir, what time frame are we talking about? A. I believe the last time I testified in a Kent case was 1997. Page 4890 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right, sir. And your opinions were what in the 1997 time frame when you testified against the Kent original filter? A. Using certain information and making certain assumptions, I believed that it was likely that the crocidolite from the Kent filter was a contributing factor to the patient's mesothelioma. Q. All right, sir. Let's explore. Obviously -- I say obviously because I brought you here -- have you changed your mind? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And we're going to explore why you changed your mind. But before we do that, I want to explore what your rationale was, what reasons did you have back in the '90s when you were testifying against the original Kent cigarette. Let's talk about that first. Okay? A. Sure. Q. What were some of those reasons for the opinions that you were giving at that time, sir, specifically? A. Well, one had to do with crocidolite being the most potent fiber type in terms of the cause of mesothelioma. And the other main reasons 24 (Pages 4887 - 4890) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4891 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4893 were that using -- making some calculations based on 1 a study that had been published, I believe in 1995, 2 by Dr. Longo, that making certain assumptions and 3 calculations, I came to the conclusion that more 4 likely than not this person would have an amount of 5 asbestos in their lungs that's above background. 6 Q. All right, sir. The jury has heard 7 about Dr. Longo and his Cancer Research study 8 publication. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You're familiar with that study, are you 11 not? 12 A. I am. 13 Q. And you're familiar with the syringe 14 experiment that was the basis for those calculations 15 and that study. Correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, what was it about the syringe 18 experiment that you took to support your conclusion 19 in the '90s that Kent, original Kent, could 20 contribute to cause mesothelioma? 21 A. Well, I assumed that from the experiment 22 was a reasonable approximation of what an individual 23 would get from smoking the cigarette. 24 I then made the assumption about fibers 25 Page 4892 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that would be deposited in the lung, including the clusters of fibers, that clusters could then break up into larger numbers of fibers. Then I made some assumptions about the percentage of the asbestos that would actually be deposited in the lungs, and then about how long it would take to clear those fibers from the lungs. Q. And all of those assumptions and conclusions and calculations that you've generally described, sir, they were all driven by the Longo study? MR. MAIMON: Objection, leading. Sorry. THE COURT: Objection sustained. Q. Okay. Tell us the basis that you were using for these calculations that led to your support of the theory that Kent was a contributing factor in causing mesothelioma. A. Yeah. I took the numbers from Dr. Longo about the release of fibers, the numbers of fibers that were being released, and then did the calculations about how much would then be deposited based on somebody smoking a pack a day, say, for four years from 1952 to 1956, and about how long it would take to clear those fibers out of the lungs, and concluded that more likely than not, you would have an elevated content of asbestos. Q. Doctor, do you recall how Dr. Longo treated bundles of fibers in his study? A. He counted them as a single structure, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And did that inform the opinion you held in the '90s regarding original Kent as a causal relationship to mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. How? A. I considered that the bundles of fibers then might break up into additional fibers once they were deposited in the lung tissue, and that that would result in an even higher burden than -- than was determined from just counting the structures. Q. Doctor, did any animal studies factor in to assist your conclusions back in the '90s that Kent could be a contributing factor in mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. And in which way, and describe that for us, please. A. Yeah, that's talked about in Chapter 10 of my text in experimental animal studies, that studies had suggested that somewhere between 65 percent and 100 percent of commercial amphibole Page 4894 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fibers, of which crocidolite is one, would be deposited. That which was breathed in, almost all of it was deposited in the lungs of the rats. And so I was using that as part of my calculations. Q. All right, sir. And was there a particular study involving mesothelioma in women that informed your opinion in the '90s that Kent was a contributing factor to mesothelioma, the original Kent cigarette? A. Yeah. We had done a study of malignant mesothelioma in women published in 1997, so we completed it by 1996. And that study -- in that study we had among our 60-something cases -- I think it was 62 cases we had of mesothelioma in women, three of them had a history of smoking Kent cigarettes. So we thought, well, that's high compared to what the market share of Kent was. So that disproportionate number suggested there might be an association. And actually, I believe, as I recall, in the chapter we said that this -- that this needs to be further investigated in an epidemiological study. Q. All right, sir. So have we discussed the factors that were in play when you were of the opinion in the '90s that the original Kent filter 25 (Pages 4891 - 4894) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4895 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 could be a contributing cause to someone's mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. All right, sir. Now, did that opinion change, Doctor? A. Yes. Q. And when did it change? A. Well, I wouldn't say it was overnight. I think there were several things that influenced it. First of all, prior to my testifying in that case in 1997, we had done fiber analysis on one case and found -- in which their only known exposure was smoking Kent cigarettes, and we found no crocidolite present in the lungs. Q. Okay. Let's stop right there. Is that case one that was -- that appeared in the published literature? A. Eventually, yes. Q. Eventually it did? A. Yes. Q. And the jury may have seen that. That's why I interrupted you. But let's break that down a little bit. Did you perform a fiber burden analysis on the lung tissue of the woman who was the subject Page 4897 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4896 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of that case where it was claimed that her only known exposure to asbestos was to a Kent cigarette between '52 and '56? A. I did in one case, but that was not the case that I was testifying in. The case I was testifying in did not have a fiber analysis done. Q. Yes, sir. That was my fault. The question I asked was incorrect. Did you do a fiber burden analysis on a woman who claimed that her only known asbestos exposure was to a Kent cigarette? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, again, tell us what the fiber burden process -- what is it that you physically are doing when you perform a fiber burden? A. Yes, it's dissolving the lung tissue away, and then looking with the light microscope and the electron microscope to determine the amount and type of any asbestos present. Q. Okay. So how do you get the lung tissue to -- to work it to end up putting the particles under a microscope? How do you get it? A. Well, there's several ways. One is if the patient has a surgical procedure where they remove part of the lung, or in some cases the whole lung. For some lung cancers and some mesothelioma, they'll take out the whole lung as part of the treatment. And then we have the lung tissue which we can study in that circumstance. And then the other way is if a patient dies and an autopsy is done, then we can take the tissue from the autopsy and perform the procedure looking for the asbestos. Q. And who determines whether somebody after death is going to have a section of the lung tissue taken so that a fiber burden analysis can be conducted? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase. Q. Well, you're familiar with the medical records of Mr. Argento, are you not? A. I am. Q. Was a fiber burden analysis conducted on the lung tissue of Mr. Argento? A. No. Q. Could it have been done? A. Sure. Q. Are you aware of why it wasn't? MR. MAIMON: Objection. A. No. Page 4898 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Overruled. MR. CEDILLO: When he says objection, don't answer. THE COURT: I understood the delay over here. The objection is overruled and he answered. Q. He did. Either way. All right. So the tissue is sent to your laboratory, and then you conduct a fiber burden analysis. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And you did that for a woman who claimed that -- or it was claimed that her only known exposure was to Kent cigarettes. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, you're familiar with the specific type of asbestos that was the filtering agent in the filter from '52 to '56. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And what was that, sir? A. Crocidolite. Q. Okay. And when you did the fiber burden analysis, you broke down the tissue and you put the -- the mineral particles under your microscope, what kind of asbestos did you find, if any? A. Amosite. 26 (Pages 4895 - 4898) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4899 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Did you find any crocidolite, whatsoever? A. No. Q. Okay. Did this experiment have any impact on the opinion that you formed about whether or not Kent really could be a contributing factor in causing mesothelioma? A. To a degree. It did not contribute to the cases in which the only known exposure was to Kent because that woman had another known exposure that accounted for the amosite. Q. All right, sir. Now, so you conducted that particular fiber burden. Have you had occasion to conduct other fiber burdens on persons who claimed that a Kent cigarette was their source of asbestos exposure? A. Yes. Q. How many times, sir? A. Since that case I testified in in 1997, I mentioned I had already done one. I have done three additional cases. Q. All right. And what were your results in the three additional cases of fiber burden analysis on people who claimed that their exposure to asbestos came through an original Kent filter? Page 4901 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4900 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. In all four cases in which the only known or claimed exposure was through Kent cigarettes, we did not find any crocidolite in the tissues. Q. And what did -- did that inform your opinion to the point where you started rethinking your conclusions from the 1990s? A. Yes. Q. How, sir? A. Well, I mean, as a pathologist, as somebody who studied asbestos-related diseases for a lifetime, then I believed, and continue to believe, that what you find in the lung is most informative about the causation of disease. And so -- and our criteria for causation means if you find an amount of asbestos in a lung tissue that's different, elevated above what you expect to find in my lung or your lung, then we consider that to be causative of -- of asbestos-related mesothelioma. If we don't, then I don't believe you can say that asbestos was a contributing factor in those cases. Q. Now, Doctor, when you are performing these fiber burdens, what period of time did that span, these fiber burdens on the four Kent smokers? A. The first one was mid-1990s, and I think the last one was done by the early 2000s. Q. Okay. Did anybody at Lorillard Tobacco Company know that you were doing these fiber burden analyses? Did they have any input with you, or direction, or were you reporting to anyone at Lorillard when you were doing these fiber burden analyses? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Not Lorillard, no. Q. Okay. Now, when you did these fiber burden analyses, what kind of equipment did you use, your microscopes, and so forth? Is it possible that you weren't using the right equipment to be able to detect what was there? A. I don't think so. The microscope that I use today was -- was purchased by the Durham VA Medical Center in 1992. So I've been using that for the last 24 years. That microscope was moved over to Duke when I retired from the VA and became full-time at Duke in March of 2007. And we had published studies about our findings of -- of crocidolite asbestos, and we found a number of cases with crocidolite in their lung tissues in elevated amounts Page 4902 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in that period since 1992. Q. And I mean, as far as the equipment that you're using, sir, is it outdated? I mean, do you still have a carburetor on it where there's others that have fuel injection to them? Or I mean, is there any criticism that maybe you just don't have the right equipment to be able to pick up what's there? A. No. I mean, the size of fibers that we are interested in has not changed since I started doing this with the electron microscope out at Research Triangle Park in 1981. And we switched over to a different microscope, also the same type, scanning electron microscope, as I mentioned, in 1992. And I still use the same procedures during that time. The microscope annually undergoes maintenance procedures, routine maintenance, where they come in and make sure it's operating like a new one. And so I don't think that's an issue. Q. All right, sir. Now, these Kent smoker fiber burden analyses that you've just described, did you publish in the medical or scientific literature on -- on these studies that you conducted, sir? A. Yes. 27 (Pages 4899 - 4902) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4903 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And where would we find that in the literature? A. Well, we published it twice, actually. The first time was -- it was sort of an afterthought, a mention in the 2002 study we did of the 1,445 cases. We mentioned in there that we had analyzed four cases whose only known exposure was to Kent cigarettes, and had not found any crocidolite in the lungs. That was like a paragraph in the discussion. Then in 2009, we actually wrote a paper on crocidolite and mesothelioma. And we -- we reported our -- our results and observations that we'd made about crocidolite and mesothelioma, and again repeated that we analyzed four cases whose only known exposure was through Kent cigarettes and did not find increased crocidolite in any of those cases. Q. All right. So to summarize this section, sir. Did your fiber burden analyses on smokers who claim their asbestos exposure through the original Kent cigarette, how did that impact your current opinion on whether or not the original Kent cigarette could contribute to cause mesothelioma? A. Well, as I mentioned, the last time I testified for a plaintiff in a Kent case, I had done Page 4905 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4904 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 one analysis on a patient whose only known exposure was to Kent. And the subsequent three cases where we still did not find any crocidolite cast a considerable doubt on whether or not smoking Kent could result in enough exposure to cause an individual to get mesothelioma. So that was -- that was -- that was an important consideration in my change of opinion. Q. All right, sir. Now, let's talk about Dr. Longo. What was it about your further review of Dr. Longo that caused a change in the opinion from the one you held in the 1990s? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. MAIMON: I'm going to object, your Honor, to the extent this is an invitation to the witness to talk about the unpublished studies which has been -- that's the subject of the Court's rulings. I have reviewed some of the witness' prior testimony about this, and he has certain criticisms and comments about what's been found in unpublished data. MR. CEDILLO: I see the concern, your Honor. THE COURT: So far you've stuck to the published study. MR. MAIMON: The way the question is phrased is my concern. MR. CEDILLO: I will represent to you that I have instructed him on the Court's rulings, and that doesn't mean I'm not going to try again and maybe have a proffer or whatever, but I can ask a more specific question that will make sure that he doesn't volunteer anything. MR. MAIMON: Sure. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: Because I'm aware of the Court's ruling, and I wasn't trying to back-door it. MR. MAIMON: I didn't think Mr. Cedillo was trying to back-door it. I was just concerned that the witness, in responding to such an open-ended question, would volunteer those things. MR. DEFEO: Maybe there's two front doors. MR. CEDILLO: I'll tie it down, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. (End of sidebar.) Page 4906 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. CEDILLO: May I proceed, your Honor? THE COURT: Certainly. Q. Dr. Roggli, I want to break up my questions to you on Dr. Longo into the methodology employed, and then the calculations that he employed and your reassessment of those calculations that you've already testified about very generally. Okay? A. Yes, sir. Q. So let's start with the methodology. Did you form a subsequent opinion regarding Dr. Longo's methodology in the study that you conducted? And I want you to be within four corners of the study that came out in Cancer Research. Okay? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right, sir. Did you reassess his methodology? A. Yes. Q. And what -- what did that entail, sir? A. Well, initially, it was after the last trial that I testified in for a plaintiff in Kent cigarettes. The cross-examination made me realize that my assumption that using the syringe test on 40-year-old Kent cigarettes, that that was similar to smoking cigarettes, is probably not a good one. And I had not really, I guess, known that, or thought 28 (Pages 4903 - 4906) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4907 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that through enough at the time of that trial in 1997. I mean, there was subsequent information that I got probably around 2001 that led me to realize there were other problems in Dr. Longo's analysis that -Q. Well, Doctor, let me ask you to stick with the syringe analysis and the methodology -- I'll call that the methodology. A. Yeah. Q. Let's stay with that and go just real tight on Q and A in this area. Okay? A. Sure. Q. What was it that you gained an awareness that had to do with the syringe and -- and the method that he used in conducting the study that led to the publication of the Cancer Research article? A. Well, just the questions that I was asked on cross-examination made me realize that the method that was similar to smoking was not a good one. That left me with considerable doubts about using the syringe method. And then some other things he did with the methodology was the indirect method of analyzing a filter, which I didn't know at the time of that case, but I did subsequently learn, I think around Page 4909 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4908 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2001, from Berman and Crump's study for the Environmental Protection Agency, that that procedure has the ability to increase the fibers that you're detecting by one or two orders of magnitude. That's a factor of 10 to 100. Q. All right. A. And then the other thing that I came to subsequently realize is that his counting of the clusters that were part of his methodology, instead of that resulting in even more fibers in the lung, probably would result in less in the lung because it was the realization from -- again from the Berman and Crump analysis, that these clusters have a diameter so large that they're not going to be deposited in the lower respiratory tract if they get there. Q. Let's break that down then. I heard three general categories in the reanalysis that you did on the methodology. The first one has to do with the assumption that the syringe experiment simulated the smoking -- the act of smoking a cigarette. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And what conclusions did you reach upon further study about that assumption? A. It probably was not a good assumption. It probably was not a realistic comparison. Q. And why would that be, sir? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I think it has to do with the physics of pulling the syringe down to draw air through it is not the same as -- as the individual puffing a cigarette. The way that you had to -- my understanding from his methodology, to -- to push the filter down so that it would fit into the syringe had the potential for damaging the filter and releasing things that otherwise would not have been released. And also the fact that the cigarettes were not off the shelf as they were smoked, but they were 40 years old. Q. In 1995 they were 40 years old. A. Correct. Q. All right, sir. Now, the second category I heard was the methodology he used to do the counting. A. Yes. Q. You talked about it as a direct method -- indirect method. A. Yes. Q. And I assume there's a direct method. Page 4910 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tell us a little bit about that. What's the difference? A. Well, this is the methodology that the EPA has established for looking at water samples or air samples to see about the amount of asbestos. And a direct method is one where you had the air go through the filter, or the water go through the filter, and then you take that filter and you look at it directly under an electron microscope and count the fibers. The indirect method is you use the filter the same way, but now you take that filter, you dissolve it in material. You resuspend the particles that were on the filter, and put that on a new filter, and then look at that under an electron microscope. And it sounds like, well, what's the difference. But the EPA determined, oh, that can increase the number of fibers that you see because the process of extracting them from -- from the original filter can break them up into smaller fibers and into more fibers so that you've greatly increased the numbers. It can cause clusters to break up, for example. So that was -- that was a problem that I learned about subsequently. Q. All right, sir. 29 (Pages 4907 - 4910) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4911 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So we've talked about the method of counting using the indirect method led you to reassess the earlier opinion that you had then. A. Yes, sir. Q. All right, sir. And then I think the third one that I've heard had to do with how he treated the presence of bundles. What were you doing with the bundle part of his testing when, in the '90s, you were testifying that Kent could lead to cause mesothelioma? A. Well, I was assuming that those would be deposited in the lung, and then -- in the lung and the lung environment where the fluids that were present there could then break up into smaller fibers, and those could be distributed in the lung and actually increase the exposure. Q. All right. That's what you thought in the '90s? A. Yes. Q. And then what happened to make you think -- or rethink that position? A. Well, then I was reading the Berman and Crump's analysis and realized -- it was almost a "duh" moment. Why hadn't I thought of that before? Those structures would be too large to even be Page 4913 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4912 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 deposited in the lower respiratory tract. Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the pronunciation. It's my ears, it's not your pronunciation. You're referring to a published article by two authors? A. Yes. Q. What -A. No, that was -- they subsequently published their work in 2008. Q. I see. A. But what they did around 2001 is that they put together an analysis for the Environmental Protection Agency, and that became available to anybody that wanted to look at it. Q. And what was the name of that analysis, sir? A. I don't recall the title of it, but it was looking at fiber indices, is what they eventually published about. Q. And who were the authors again, please? A. Wayne Berman and Crump, Kenny Crump. Q. Berman and Crump? A. Yes. Q. And to your knowledge, did Berman and Crump, were they doing this for a group of defendants, for Lorillard, or for anybody? A. No, I think they were independent. Q. And was that in the medical and scientific literature? A. Eventually they published their findings in 2008 in the scientific literature. Q. And you took the work that they were doing there, and how did that inform your new opinion then, sir? A. Well, one was that -- that the use of the indirect methodology will increase the fiber count. And the other that those clusters that had been counted probably never would get into the lung in the first place. Q. Why would they not get into the lung in the first place, sir, the clusters? A. Well, there is a size of particles in general that can be deposited in the lower respiratory tract. That is, the lung where your gas exchange takes place, where the alveoli are. And that's usually -- 5 microns is the -- is the typical size. That, and fibers and structures below that. For mineral fibers, they tend to line up along the direction of air flow, so their diameter is the most important factor. And so an individual Page 4914 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fiber can be 20, 30, even 100 microns long. If it's thin enough, it lines up like a straw in the air and just goes right down deep into the lung. If you've got a cluster of them like a ball, and it's more than 5 microns across, then it's either going to be deposited in the nose, in the hairs in the nose in the upper respiratory tract, or it will impact high up in the airways, the windpipe and the bronchi. Q. All right, sir. And this -- this work by these two individuals assisted you in reassessing your opinion about the Kent filter that you had in the mid-'90s? A. Yes. Q. All right, sir. Now, we've been talking about Dr. Longo's testing and his methodology. Did you come to any new awareness or conclusions regarding the calculations? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let's talk about that. What was it about his calculations that you began to question? A. It's actually the calculations that I did based on what his fiber counts were. And two things that had changed is my assumption about the 30 (Pages 4911 - 4914) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4915 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 amount that's deposited in the lower respiratory tract in humans and the clearance of the fibers from the lungs. And the first one in that regard, the deposition, I assumed that the studies in the rats that 65 to 100 percent of the respirable fraction of the fibers get deposited in the lower respiratory tract. But Berman and Crump said, ah, not so with humans. It's about 20 percent, or one-fifth as much of what the rats get. I don't know why. Physiologically there's a difference. So that assumption that essentially 100 percent of the fibers get deposited in the lower respiratory tract was wrong. Secondly, Berman and Crump pointed out two components of clearance. There's a rapid component that gets rid of a certain percentage of fibers, and then a much slower component. And so I was taking into account the slower component of clearance, which is 10 to 20 years, which means, let's say you breathed in a thousand fibers, then 10 to 20 years later, if that's your half-life, you would have half as many, you would have 500 fibers still in the lung. So that's what I was assuming. But that was incorrect because there's a rapid Page 4917 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4916 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 component which gets rid of a fraction of the fibers before you get to that long, slow clearance component. Q. All right. If I -- I'm going to attempt to summarize what you're talking about in terms of calculations. And the way that I can process it is that there was an overestimation of what ends up in your lung in terms of fiber count, and -- and an underestimation, or undercounting of what gets cleared. Have I got that more or less accurate there? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So in the under -- in the overestimation, you did further research and reached the conclusion that Dr. Longo's numbers were doing what in terms of its calculation? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. MAIMON: My objection, your Honor, is the witness has already clarified that it wasn't Dr. Longo's calculation. It was his calculations based on Dr. Longo's numbers. And, therefore, the question keeps perpetuating a miscomprehension or misleading of the jury that it's somehow Dr. Longo's calculations that changed, which the witness has already clarified it. So the question as phrased is improper. MR. CEDILLO: I'll -- I can always reask and be clear, your Honor. THE COURT: Just to be clear, this witness did testify with regard to calculations, his calculations. MR. CEDILLO: Right. But I want to be clear, your Honor. Longo had calculations, and then he put them to the test with new knowledge and reached the conclusion that his calculations overestimated deposition rate and underestimated clearance. That's what he's already said. MR. MAIMON: No, that's not what he said. Longo had data, had numbers, and then he made calculations which he says both overestimated deposition rates and underestimated clearance. It wasn't Longo's calculations. THE COURT: That's how I understood his response. MR. CEDILLO: I'll rephrase. THE COURT: Yes. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: Please rephrase. Page 4918 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Dr. Roggli, in the Cancer Research article, Dr. Longo presented certain calculations regarding the release of the fibers based on the methodology he employed to test those 40-year-old cigarettes. Correct? A. Yes. Q. All right, sir. What did you do to determine any change of your opinion based on Dr. Longo's calculation? A. Well, I think there's several things that I think about that. First, as I mentioned, after that last trial I testified in, my assumption that this was representative of the way to smoke cigarettes was probably not a good one. Secondly, even if you did assume that this is similar to the smoking, then it's going to reduce significantly the amount of fibers that are going to end up in the lung by -- by, number one, considering the methodology being the indirect method technique; number two, counting the clusters in; and number three, my overestimation of deposition; and five -- and four, my underestimation of clearance. So those are all directions of reducing the amount that was in the lungs. And so my 31 (Pages 4915 - 4918) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4919 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4921 conclusion was, once I had done the new calculations, 1 that this is not going to be a significant level. 2 Q. All right. And when you say your 3 overestimation of deposition, you're not talking 4 about questions and answers that are asked of a 5 witness outside the courtroom and we show a video. 6 What do you mean by "deposition"? 7 A. Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Yes. It just means 8 deposited in the lung tissues. 9 Q. We've got some budding law students 10 after all these weeks in trial. I want to make sure 11 we're on the same track. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. All right. And the conclusions you 14 reached back in the '90s using the methodology and 15 the conclusions of Dr. Longo, when you put the new 16 data to perform calculations, taking into account 17 these things you've talked about, what was your 18 result? 19 A. It was below what we considered to be an 20 elevated amount of crocidolite in the lung tissue 21 concentrations. And -- and, of course, it was my 22 opinion that what calculations I did from Dr. Longo 23 weren't really relevant because we weren't finding 24 elevated crocidolite when we actually looked in the 25 Page 4920 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lung tissues. Q. All right. And that's covered in the first reason we talked about? A. Yeah. Q. All right. Now, that's on the calculation that resulted in the overestimation. Let's talk about the underestimation of the clearance amount, and what you're talking about, half-life and all that. Let's break that down -A. Sure. Q. -- in layman's terms so that I can get it. Okay? What was involved in this calculation you performed to conclude that there is an undercounting or an underestimation of what gets cleared by the human body? A. Yeah, I believe that that was assuming that the half-life of clearance would be 10 to 20 years. And so that if I made a calculation about this is the amount of asbestos that would have been deposited, and the person last smoked Kent cigarettes in 1956, and we're looking at him in 1996, 40 years later, how much crocidolite would you expect to find in the lungs. And that would be -- if you consider the half-life to be ten years, that would be four half-lives later. If you considered 20 years, that would be two half-lives later. Q. And assuming a latency period of mesothelioma of 30 to 40 years, is that a reasonable assumption, sir? A. Yes. Q. And if -- if the half-life is clearing every ten years or so, what is the effect of a fiber that ends up being cleared in relation to causation of disease, Doctor? A. Well, most of the clearance takes -- well, clearance goes into several different compartments. One of the compartments that it goes to, it is removed from the lungs, it goes to the lymphatics and goes to the lymph nodes. Another place that it goes to would be the pleura. And another place it goes to would be removed from the lungs entirely, and that's probably where the fast clearance component is involved where the fibers that were breathed in land on the surface of the airways that are covered with this mucus blanket. And what we have in the lining of the airways are cells that have hairs on the surface called cilia, which beat rhythmically in a direction which is removing the mucus upwards and outwards from Page 4922 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the lung. So that fast clearance compartment relates to the fraction of the fibers that land on the mucus blanket and then get removed from the lungs by that normal clearance mechanism. Q. And in your under -- in your conclusion regarding underestimation, you had focused previously on the ten-year half-life going forward and not adequately addressed the rapid clearance process? A. Yes, sir. Q. What led you to consider the rapid removal process before you reached the conclusion of just what the deposit may have been? A. I think I realized that that was an error, again, in reading the Berman and Crump analysis in 2001 they talked about reminded me of the two compartments of clearance. Q. And, Dr. Roggli, if a fiber gets removed either through the rapid clearance or the half-life clearance, does that fiber contribute to cause disease? A. No. Q. And so that is another reason why you -- you changed your position on whether or not Kent, an original Kent filtered cigarette could contribute to causing mesothelioma, Doctor? 32 (Pages 4919 - 4922) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. All right, sir. And then on the issue regarding bundles. I think you told us that back in the '90s you thought that a bundle would get into the lung tissue, and then once there, it would break up so that what was a bundle is now a whole bunch of individual fibers. At least that's the way I heard it. Am I anywhere near the ballpark? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And what was it that made you -- did you change your opinion about that? A. That, again, was in the Berman and Crump analysis in 2001 that many clusters would have diameters too large. Q. Was that sort of the aerodynamics of the fiber? A. Yeah. The cluster has different aerodynamic features than a fiber. And one of the things I talk about is that the -- an individual fiber tends to line up with the direction of air flow. And so just like an arrow, we can penetrate deep into the lungs. But a cluster is more irregular so it's going to bounce around and move around and not behave the same way a fiber would Page 4925 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4924 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aerodynamically. Additionally, you've got tars and resins attached to the clusters, and actually to the individual fibers, that might alter their aerodynamics and keep them from penetrating deep into the lung. Just to give you an example, you can think about an arrow that has the three feathers on it and that makes it go in a straight line. If you take one of those feathers out -- I don't know if you ever did that, but I did as a kid -- take one of the feathers off the arrow and shoot it. Now it's going to go in a crazy motion because it's not aerodynamically stable. And the same thing would happen if you have a fiber that has a significant amount of tar or particulate material attached to it. It would then move erratically and would more likely impact the wall of the bronchus before it got deep into the lung. Q. And Dr. Roggli, in your field, sir, as a doctor, as a scientist, as a researcher, what does it mean to follow the science? A. Well, I think it means that if the information that's published in scientific literature, or that from your own personal scientific observations changes, then -- then your opinions about a certain theory has to change. And that's the very nature of science. We test hypotheses, and if we find out that the science doesn't support it, then we reject it. Q. And did you follow the science, sir, in the change of your opinion regarding the original Kent filter and this research? A. I believed that I was following the science when I testified for the plaintiffs in 1997; and subsequently I realized there were a lot of assumptions that I made that I think are incorrect. And then when I added to that the findings of analysis of the lung tissue samples and not seeing crocidolite, that it probably was incorrect. Q. And, Doctor, have you published in the scientific and medical literature about your assessments regarding the Longo study that led you to change your opinion? A. Yes. Q. When did you publish that, sir? A. Yeah, I didn't go into great detail about the Longo study, but in the 2009 article on "Crocidolite and Mesothelioma," we quoted the 1995 Longo study as being one that indicated that Page 4926 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 crocidolite could be released from smoking Kent cigarettes, and then pointed out that -- that our analysis of lung tissue samples of people whose only known exposure was to smoking -- or only known exposure was through Kent cigarettes did not support that. Q. Do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 up there, sir? A. I don't see it. What is it? Q. It's -- I believe it's a 2008 article. A. No, I don't have it. Q. PX-006. It was only marked for identification, I believe during Dr. Moline. Let me show it to you. Is that the -- well, this is the Cancer Research article. Correct? A. Yeah, this is Dr. Longo's original 1995 article. Q. All right. I thought I had the 2008 article which you just referenced. MR. BERGER: It hasn't been marked yet. MR. CEDILLO: It has not been marked yet. Okay. I apologize, your Honor. (LTC-11, Marked for Identification.) Q. Let me hand you what we've marked as 33 (Pages 4923 - 4926) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4927 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Lorillard Tobacco Company Exhibit 11, marked for identification as 11. Can you tell us what this is, sir? A. Yeah, this is the article we published in Ultrastructural Pathology in 2008 called "Crocidolite and Mesothelioma" which I was referring to. Q. And you're one of the authors here, sir? A. Yes, I am the senior author, the third author. Q. And this is where you pointed out your criticism of Dr. Longo's Cancer Research study? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Yes. Q. How does this treat -- or what reference do you make regarding Dr. Longo in Lorillard Exhibit 11, sir? A. Well, since we were -- since we were studying crocidolite and mesothelioma, and since the Kent cigarette issue had come up a number of times, that's one possible source of crocidolite we were finding. So we addressed that and pointed out that one source of possible crocidolite exposure with crocidolite-containing filters of Kent Micronite Page 4929 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4928 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cigarettes produced in the 1950s, and we cite the 1 Longo article. And then we pointed out, "During the 2 four years these filter cigarettes were on the 3 market, of the 15 patients with crocidolite as the 4 only commercial amphibole fiber, only three had a 5 documented history of smoking and were of sufficient 6 age for exposure during the relevant years. All the 7 others were either lifetime nonsmokers or 13 years of 8 age or younger. In the past, though, we have not 9 identified crocidolite fibers in lung tissue samples 10 from four individuals who described exposure to 11 crocidolite from Micronite filter cigarettes." 12 MR. MAIMON: Can we approach? 13 THE COURT: Yes, sidebar. 14 (At sidebar.) 15 MR. MAIMON: I'm going to ask for an 16 instruction to the jury, your Honor. Mr. Cedillo 17 asked a leading question: "This is the article where 18 you voice your criticisms of Dr. Longo." There's not 19 a single criticism of Dr. Longo, not only in the 20 section that he read, but in the entire article. And 21 yet he's representing to this jury, and Dr. Roggli 22 answered yes, not only to this cite. No. 26 is a 23 citation to -- to Longo, but there's not a single 24 criticism in here. It's improper. 25 MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, he can argue that and he can cross him all he wants. The paper says, here's what Longo said about it, and then he says, I've done all these studies and haven't found anything. That's a criticism. THE COURT: He's already testified to it. He's read it and it is a criticism. If you don't consider it a criticism, you can cross-examine him. The Court considers it a criticism and finds it is an appropriate question. Thank you. (End of sidebar.) Q. And, sir, that was in 2008. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Did anyone at Lorillard Tobacco Company know about your work in 2008 leading to what you published at that time, sir? MR. MAIMON: Objection. How does this witness -THE COURT: Rephrase, please. Q. Did Lorillard ever approach you and ask you to write this, or did you ever make them aware that you were doing this work that led to this publication, sir? That's my question. A. No, they never approached me. And if we Page 4930 were working on this crocidolite/mesothelioma article at a time that a case was active, I may have mentioned it to them. I have no recollection. Q. All right, sir. Now, this has all been part of the subject area of your involvement in asbestos-related litigation, Doctor. That was the topic that introduced all of these subtopics we've been discussing. Let's wrap up that part of it by my asking you whether you were compensated for the work that you do in asbestos-related litigation. A. Yes, sir. Q. And what is your rate of compensation? A. For testifying in court it's $600 an hour, with a 36-hour -- with a 24-hour cap of $3,600. Q. Okay. And so you never -- $600 an hour, and you said 3,600 cap? A. For 24 hours, yes. Q. So what you're doing is you're getting paid $600 for six hours, six times six is 36. A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. So your travel time, your being here, reviewing, being in court, traveling back and forth, if that takes you 24 hours portal to portal, you only charge for six. 34 (Pages 4927 - 4930) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4931 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Correct. Q. And you do that for every engagement, or is that a special rate you're giving some people? A. No, that's the same for -- for all cases that I testify in. Q. All right, sir. And I think we covered this. You testify for both plaintiffs and defendants, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you charge the same fee, the same rate whether it's for a plaintiff case or a defense case? A. That's correct. Q. All right, sir. Let's talk about a few subjects that I hope to cover quickly with you. I would like to talk to you about fiber size for a moment. Okay? A. Sure. Q. And we'll come back to Dr. Longo, but we're going to save the best for last. Okay? A. Sure. Q. On fiber size. What needs to happen for asbestos fibers to contribute to cause mesothelioma, Doctor? A. Well, the fibers have to be deposited in Page 4933 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4932 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the lower respiratory tract. They have to migrate to 1 the pleura, and they have to stay there, I believe, 2 for long periods of time. 3 Q. And do they need to be a certain size 4 and shape to do this migration? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And what is that generally, if 7 you know? 8 A. The fibers that are pathogenic, able to 9 cause disease, are the ones that are more than 10 5 microns, and the Berman and Crump study show it's 11 probably ones over 10 microns in length that cause 12 disease. So that length is an important factor in 13 disease causation. The main important thing about 14 diameter is that the fiber is thin enough that it can 15 penetrate deep into the lungs. For example, you 16 could have a fiber that's 50 microns long, but if 17 it's 5 microns in diameter, it won't get deep into 18 the lungs. 19 Q. You're going to cough it up, spit it 20 out, do something with it. 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. All right, sir. So in asbestos 23 exposure, not every fiber that you're exposed to gets 24 actually inhaled, does it, sir? 25 A. Correct. Q. And we talked about this clearance, so that if it does get in, it doesn't mean it stays in the lung, does it, sir? A. That's correct. Q. And you've talked about the certain ways that the body has to protect itself from asbestos fibers getting into the lung. What are macrophages, sir? A. Macrophage is what I call the Pac-Man cell of the lung, or the garbage collector of the lung. Its job is anything that's a foreign material that lands on the lung surface where those delicate alveoli are that are involved in gas exchange, whether it's a bacteria, a virus, a coal particle, coal dust particle, or an asbestos fiber, a macrophage's job is to react to that and try to eat it and digest it. Some things it's very good at eating and digesting, some things not so good at doing it. Q. What does it do with it after it's eaten and digested? Where does it go? A. Well, the macrophage can stay right there in the lung at that spot, and it has contained the particle. The particle is not going anywhere. Page 4934 The macrophage can die and release the particles, and then another macrophage would come to get the particles again. Or the macrophage can get into the lymphatics and actually make its way into the lymph nodes. Or it can get on what we call the mucociliary escalator, the blanket of mucus that's lining your bronchial tubes, and can ride upwards and outwards from the lung and then be coughed up. Q. All right, sir. And we talk about the aerodynamic diameter that we discussed already. And you mentioned this a little bit. But if a fiber ends up being coated with something like tar, how would that affect the aerodynamic diameter of that fiber? A. Yeah, it can -- actually, the effect is the diameter would be increased, because instead of lining it up along the air flow and penetrating deep, then it moves more erratically and will tend to impact higher up in the respiratory tract. Q. All right. Dr. Roggli, this jury has heard about the different types of asbestos. I sometimes have called it the different flavors that it comes in. You're familiar with the different fiber types that 35 (Pages 4931 - 4934) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4935 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 make up asbestos. Correct, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, my question to you is, can all asbestos fibers, asbestos fiber types, can they all cause mesothelioma in humans, Doctor? A. Yeah, the ones that are used commercially, certainly amosite and crocidolite can cause disease. For chrysotile, it's not clear whether it's the chrysotile, itself, or its contaminant, another type of asbestos contaminant that can cause the disease. But chrysotile dust from Canada in sufficient doses can cause mesothelioma, yes. Q. Okay. Is there any type of asbestos that is known not to cause mesothelioma in people, sir? A. That's a good question. I'm not aware of one, though. Q. Okay. In your lab, sir, do you have a group of what you call control patients for your mesothelioma studies? A. Yes. Q. And why do you have control patients? A. Well, as I mentioned earlier, everybody has some amount of asbestos in their lung, so it's Page 4937 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4936 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not sufficient just to do an analysis and say, hey, there's asbestos present. You have to quantify the amount and then compare it to a population that has no known exposure to asbestos and no evidence of any asbestos-related disease. And that's our control group. Q. All right, sir. And what's the purpose of having the control group? A. To compare your cases with to see if they have an elevated or increased amount of asbestos in their lungs. Q. Now, the jury has heard, and I think you've mentioned the term "amphibole asbestos." A. Yes, sir. Q. What are we talking about there? A. Yeah, I think there's fine minerals that are a member of the amphibole group. The ones used to any extent in this country were amosite and crocidolite. And then there's three noncommercial amphiboles, and those are tremolite, actinolite, and anthophyllite. Q. And what's the most common amphibole asbestos fiber type that you found in lung tissue from the control patients in your lab, the ones that don't have meso? A. Tremolite is the most common fiber type that we find in our control group. Q. Now, we talked a little bit earlier about the 1,445 cases from your lab that went into your publication, sir. I'm calling that the 1,445 case study. Okay? A. Yes. Q. Does this article on the 1,445 cases, does it state which asbestos fiber type was most commonly found in people with mesothelioma? A. Yes. Q. And what was that, sir? A. Yes, we found that -- our finding from 1993 that amosite was the main type of asbestos that I was worried about being that we found it because we had so many insulators and shipyard workers in that regional study. But now when we have 268 cases of the 1,445 where we actually had done fiber analysis on them, that amosite was still the predominant fiber type across all the occupations that we studied. (LTC-12, Marked for Identification.) Q. Doctor, let me hand you Lorillard Tobacco Company Exhibit 12 that I ask that you identify, please. A. Yes, this is a copy of our studies Page 4938 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 published in Ultrastructural Pathology in 2002 called "Malignant Mesothelioma and Occupational Exposure to Asbestos: A Clinicopathological Correlation of 1,445 Cases." Q. And in there we would find, for example, your conclusion about amosite being the most common? A. I believe so, in the discussion, yes. Q. And this is -- this is now, what, about ten years old or so? A. It was 2002, so it's 14 years old. Q. Fourteen years old. Has amosite continued to predominate in the results of your lung fiber burden analyses, sir? A. Yes. Q. What's been your experience with finding crocidolite? A. We found that it's increasing in the number -- in the percentage of cases that have it. In other words, crocidolite was found two to three times as often in the second half of the study as in the first half of the cases that we looked at and examined. It didn't matter which disease you were looking at, it was true for all of the disease we studied, lung cancer, asbestosis, and mesothelioma. Q. And, Doctor, is that strange or unusual 36 (Pages 4935 - 4938) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4939 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4941 that you would be finding an increase in crocidolite? 1 A. Yeah. And let me clarify. The 2 crocidolite level was not necessarily increased, 3 itself, concentration, but we were finding it in more 4 patients. So it was two to three times as many 5 patients in each category that we were finding 6 crocidolite as before. 7 And, no, when we did that analysis, we 8 were -- I was aware that crocidolite was used in 9 asbestos cement pipe in this country up until the 10 mid-1990s; whereas, amosite was forbidden to be put 11 in new insulation products that were sold after 1972. 12 Q. Doctor, in the exhibit that we marked, 13 the "Crocidolite and Mesothelioma," it's Lorillard 14 11, that we talked about earlier. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You published on the crocidolite 17 increasingly being identified in asbestos-related 18 mesotheliomas in your lab, do you not, sir? 19 A. Yes. We actually published an article 20 before that which goes into detail called "25 Years 21 of Fiber Analysis, What Have We Learned." And that 22 was the first time we made the observation that, hey, 23 we're seeing crocidolite more often in these days 24 than we did earlier. 25 Page 4940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And when you find crocidolite in lung tissue that you examined, and these fiber burdens that you talked to us about, sir, does it appear by itself, alone? A. Well, the interesting thing we found in this study which is Exhibit 11 is that crocidolite most often correlated with finding amosite in the tissues. In fact, it was a very statistically significant correlation between finding amosite and finding crocidolite in the tissues. Q. And do you have an explanation, sir, for that correlation between amosite and crocidolite? A. Yes. Q. What is that, sir? A. Two basic explanations is that Dr. Chris Wagner had published decades ago, when asbestos was being shipped from South Africa, if somebody ordered amosite, for example, to be put in insulation products, if crocidolite was what they had available, that's what they would ship. It got mixed up. People didn't care so much back in those days what type of fiber type it was. The other was there were some insulation products that went on buildings, for skyscrapers. There was a spray stuff called Limpet spray that was sprayed on the girders of the high-rise buildings, and that contained both amosite and crocidolite, and that was a source of insulation products that had both in it. Q. And these studies that you published on, you have done the fiber burden analysis for -- to support the findings and the conclusions that you publish on. Is that correct, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are fiber burdens done to determine the cumulative exposure that you might find in a person whose lung tissue you're studying? A. They are. Q. And what would you consider, Doctor, the most objective evidence of past significant exposures to asbestos? A. Finding an elevated level of the fiber type in the lung tissue samples. Q. By conducting the burden analysis. A. Correct. Q. Okay. And how long have lung tissue fiber burden studies been done, Doctor? A. The people who were really the pioneers of this work were publishing their initial studies in the early '70s, 1970s. Page 4942 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And, Doctor, what are pathology reports? A. Well, a pathology report would be an analysis by a pathologist of the individual case where they are describing the results of findings and examination of tissues for some other individual that they're sending the report to. Q. And, Dr. Roggli, did you review the pathology reports for Mr. Argento's diagnosis in this case? A. I did. Q. And did you review the pathology slides in this case? A. I did. Q. What are pathology slides, please? A. Well, what happens is the surgeon, as in this case, would go in and take a biopsy sample of the tumor, then send it to the laboratory. And then the laboratory, a pathologist or somebody, a trainee who is being supervised by a pathologist, will take that sample and cut it into pieces and put it in -- in different containers that they've carefully labeled to say where each piece came from. If the surgeon sends multiple samples, then each one of those would be treated as a separate sample. And then those are made into what we call paraffin 37 (Pages 4939 - 4942) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4943 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 blocks, which is just the tissue which is embedded in 1 wax. And then the technicians use a very sharp razor 2 to cut very thin sections. They're typically about 3 5 microns thick, and puts those on a glass slide, 4 stains them, and then that's what the pathologist 5 looks at under the microscope as a slide. 6 Q. All right. Then, if Mr. Argento -- if 7 the pathology on Mr. Argento had slides for you to 8 look at, why didn't you do a burden analysis on -- on 9 what was on the slides? 10 A. Because in this case all they -- all 11 they obtained was tumor tissue. And we believe, and 12 I have published about this, is you really need to 13 have lung tissue samples to analyze to determine what 14 the asbestos content is. And that you don't learn 15 anything by analyzing tumor tissue, nothing useful. 16 Q. Was there sufficient lung tissue 17 preserved to enable you to do a fiber burden analysis 18 if you had wanted to in this case? 19 A. There was not. 20 Q. And to your knowledge, I think I've 21 asked you, you don't know of any fiber burden 22 analysis that's ever been performed on Mr. Argento's 23 lung tissue. Correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Page 4944 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right, sir. Let's talk quickly about asbestos uses, 1 2 sir. 3 As part of your work and your research 4 on asbestos and asbestos-related diseases, have you 5 studied the historical uses of the different asbestos 6 fiber types in the United States? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And have you studied the uses of amosite 9 in the United States? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how long has amosite been used in 12 the U.S., sir? 13 A. Well, it was in insulation products 14 since -- since at least the '50s. And I think it 15 went back well before that, as well. 16 Q. And how long was it used? When did it 17 peak? 18 A. The peak for using -- of importing 19 asbestos of any type in the United States was 1973. 20 Q. And quickly, how was the amosite used in 21 the United States? 22 A. Mainly in insulation products. Most of 23 the amosite that was imported in the U.S. went into 24 what they call the half-rounds, which they would take 25 Page 4945 two half-rounds and put them around a pipe. That would be the pipe insulation. And then blocks, blocks of insulation that would go around these huge boilers that were -- that were producing steam in an industrial setting. So that was the main place. Then there were a few other products that amosite went into. But that was the main -- main uses of amosite. Q. What does it mean, Doctor, when you talk about asbestos being friable? A. Friable is a term that I think that the -- that the government, OSHA, NIOSH, EPA, used. It has to do with whether it is easily crumbled. And if it's easily crumbled, the material, that means it can easily be dispersed into the air upon use. Friable versus nonfriable, in which not so much is released. Q. Thank you, sir. Now, this use that you've described of amosite for insulation and use on pipes, and so forth, sir, did that produce a use that was friable or nonfriable? A. That's friable. That's a friable product. Q. Okay. Now, have you studied the use of Page 4946 crocidolite in the United States? A. Yes. Q. How long was crocidolite used in products in the U.S.? A. Again, I think that at least to the 1950s, and probably well before that it was used. And then as late as the mid-1990s was still used in asbestos in the pipe. Q. The 1990s? A. Yes. Q. All right. Was crocidolite used in insulation material, as well? A. The insulation material I mentioned, the Limpet spray, that actually intentionally had amosite and crocidolite in it. And then there was contamination of -- of -- of crocidolite into amosite products when they shipped something other than what was ordered. Q. All right. I next want to discuss with you Mr. Argento's diagnosis. A. Sure. Q. Okay? What information did you review regarding Mr. Argento's medical history, sir? A. Well, I looked at the pathology 38 (Pages 4943 - 4946) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4947 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 materials that I received, of course. I looked at 1 the pathology report that went along with 2 that -- those pathology materials. I looked at the 3 histories and physicals, discharge summaries, 4 consultation reports, the surgical report. The 5 report of the surgeon when he took the biopsy sample. 6 And the radiology reports. 7 Q. And what information did you review 8 regarding Mr. Argento's work history? 9 A. The -- of course, I had subsequently 10 received deposition transcripts, I think that we've 11 discussed. But, also, there was some information 12 that was present actually in the medical records. 13 Q. And based on your review of these 14 materials, do you have a diagnosis regarding 15 Mr. Argento? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is it, sir? 18 A. I believe he had a malignant pleural 19 mesothelioma. 20 Q. Now, let's talk about Mr. Argento's work 21 history for a moment. Okay? What's your 22 understanding of Mr. Argento's work history? 23 A. Well, his work history, I think it 24 included years at -- at different institutions, 25 Page 4948 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 years at one institution, and then 15 years with 1 Hoffmann-LaRoche. And at that latter institution, he 2 was involved with -- with insulation materials that 3 included removing insulation and -- and that he 4 actually had been trained and approved to work with 5 insulation. He had gotten a certificate to do that. 6 He also had some exposure, I think that 7 was claimed, from working with lawn products. 8 And he had some exposure that was claimed 9 through talc exposure, that first 15 years that I 10 mentioned, at a -- at a job site that I've forgotten 11 the name of now, that he worked for. It starts with 12 an "S," I think. 13 Then he had the claim from smoking Kent 14 cigarettes. 15 Q. All right, sir. I believe you do have 16 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2 in front of you there. 17 A. Exhibit 2. I do. 18 Q. And I believe that is some records that 19 indicate part of his work history, including the 20 occupation with the Hoffmann-LaRoche Company for 21 15 years. Is that correct, sir? 22 A. It does, yes. 23 Q. All right. Now, Doctor, have you as 24 part of your research, have you conducted studies on 25 Page 4949 the types of occupations and the types of industries where mesothelioma occurs most often in the United States? A. Yes. That's the -- one of the main topics of our study on the 1,445 cases, which is LTC Exhibit 12. Q. All right. In that study, what did you do in terms of grouping the members of that study into occupations or industries, sir? A. Yeah. We found that there were 12 industries that the cases fit into or six occupations that 90 percent of the cases fit into. And then we also had a significant group that were what we call household contacts of asbestos workers. That is, for example, somebody who, say a housewife who lived in a house where a ship worker was and washed his clothes. So we had those groups, and that's how we categorized the cases. Q. Why, sir, did you go to the trouble of grouping the 1,445 patients, why did you go to the trouble of grouping them by occupation or by industry? A. Well, one is to see what is the most common circumstances where we're actually seeing mesothelioma. And two is to see what sort of -- what Page 4950 sort of categories or -- or job descriptions were accounting for most of the cases we were seeing. Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you've got the study in your hand, and we're not going to go through it page by page, or anything like that, close to that, sir, but can you tell the men and women of the jury whether the information that you used in this study came from that database of the mesothelioma patients that we discussed earlier? A. Yes. The information was stored there. Again, it was my experience with the cases, and it's a convenient way to store the information, so I used that, yes. Q. And the 12 industries with the highest incidence of mesothelioma, you put them in a table in that study, did you not, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And what is your understanding of the work that Mr. Argento did when he was at Hoffmann-LaRoche in the 1970s and 1980s? What's your understanding of what work he did, and where would he fit in that industry chart? A. Well, he did maintenance work at that institution, and that would be what I would call a 39 (Pages 4947 - 4950) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4951 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chemical company. Q. Okay. And from your study of his work history, did you see that he did pipe insulation repair, removal, and maintenance? A. I did. Q. Okay. And you looked at his medical records as well, did you not? A. I did. Q. And in the medical records, did you see references to him telling his doctors about his occupation and where he worked and where he was exposed to asbestos? A. I did. Q. And did that inform your opinion, as well, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. For example, in Lorillard Exhibit No. 2, the record of Dr. Vachani. I believe that's in evidence. MR. CEDILLO: Roman, can we put that up, please. Q. Dr. Vachani, the report states on January 11 of 2012, "Mr. Argento also wanted to clarify his prior asbestos exposures. He believes he was exposed to asbestos during his employment at Page 4953 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4952 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hoffmann-LaRoche where he was employed for 16 years and was a supervisor of various sections, including the insulation department." And, Doctor, with that in mind, what is your understanding of the type of insulation products that Mr. Argento worked with at Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. That would be pipe covering insulation. Q. Do you recall Mr. Argento describing cement and half-moon pipe insulation? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall him mentioning a powdered product that was used and mixed? A. I think I would call that the cement, same as the cement. Q. And for that pipe insulation that he worked on, did Mr. Argento describe what was running through those pipes? A. Yes. Q. And what did -- what do you recall he was describing, sir? A. It was typically hot materials, such as, he mentioned the steam, I think it was alcohol and at least one other material that ran through the pipes that was hot. MR. CEDILLO: Okay. You can take that down, Roman. Q. Dr. Roggli, what type of asbestos fibers are known to have been used for insulation products in the 1950 to 1970 time period when you were dealing with hot liquids and chemicals in the pipes that were involved? A. Well, I think that after 1956, a great majority of the insulation out there contained amosite and chrysotile asbestos. And that, for some of the types of insulation out there, they were only amosite. Q. And Dr. Roggli, based on your review of the case materials that you examined, did Mr. Argento work directly with pipe insulation at Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. Yes. Q. And based on the review of his testimony from his deposition, was Mr. Argento also around people who worked on the pipe insulation -A. Yes. Q. -- at Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. Yes, sir. Q. And by referencing your table with the industries and occupations and your 1,445 article, you mentioned to us that the industry he would have Page 4954 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been working on was the oil and chemical? A. Yes. Q. And what number is that on your list of 12, sir? A. On our list of 12, we have them listed in decreasing numbers of mesotheliomas that we saw, and so the fifth highest numbers of mesotheliomas were in the oil and chemical. We've had 88 of our cases were in the oil and chemical industry. Q. Now, can a worker be in more than one of the 12 categories, Doctor? A. Yeah, they can. And we try to put them in the predominant category in that circumstance. Q. Okay. And where is maintenance on that list? A. Well, that's in Table 2 under occupations. And under occupations there was a maintenance listed that accounted for 90 cases of mesothelioma. It was the third most common occupation that we saw in mesothelioma cases. Q. All right. Let's break that down. You just gave -- did you give a percentage as part of that answer? A. No. Q. Let me ask you about the percentage. If 40 (Pages 4951 - 4954) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 oil and chemical is the number five out of 12 in the industry on that list that you have, from your study, what percent of those type of workers had pleural plaques? A. Yeah. That's in a separate table we looked at. And in oil and chemicals, I believe it was 78 percent of them had pleural plaques. Q. And on Table 2 that you mentioned, what was the occupation with the highest incidence of mesothelioma? A. The pipefitter was number one, followed by boilermaker, and then maintenance worker. Q. Now, based on Table 2, what occupation would Mr. Argento have been in during the years he worked at Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. Maintenance. Q. And maintenance is number three on that list? A. Yes, sir. Q. And what percentage of those patients in that case study that were on the maintenance, number three on the list, what percentage of those patients had pleural plaques? A. Eighty percent. Q. Maybe I've got ahead of myself. Can you Page 4957 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4956 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tell us, again, please, what the pleural plaque is? A. That is the most common marker that we see in asbestos exposure. What it is is the scarring of the pleura. Mainly a localized area of thickening and scarring of the pleura. The vast majority of the cases are caused by asbestos, especially when they're bilateral, both sides of the chest, are caused by asbestos. And if they had been there for 30 years or more, then you often see calcification in them which makes them more dense and makes it easier for the radiologist to see. Q. Okay. Now, from your review of the medical records of Mr. Argento, did he have calcified pleural plaques? A. He did. There was a CT scan that showed it was a small amount, but the radiologist believed it was a definite amount of pleural thickening with calcification bilaterally, which he suggested was caused by asbestos. Q. And, Doctor, in your opinion, is there a correlation between heavy exposure in an occupational setting and the presence of pleural plaques? A. Yeah. The more that you're exposed, the more likely you are to get plaques. But plaques occur with probably the lowest level of occupational exposure of any disease we see from being exposed to asbestos. Q. Okay. And, Doctor, do you know of any case report of a person with mesothelioma whose only exposure was to Kent cigarettes that had pleural plaques? A. No. Q. Have you ever found pleural plaques in any of your cases of mesothelioma when people said that the only exposure they had to asbestos was the Kent cigarette? A. Never. Q. In your opinion, Doctor, what was the cause of Mr. Argento's mesothelioma? A. I believe it was caused by asbestos exposure. Q. And where -- do you have an opinion on where that exposure would have taken place? A. Yes. I think that most likely, based on the information that I had of deposition, what he told his doctors, that most likely it was from exposure to insulation products when he worked for Hoffmann-LaRoche for those 15 years. Q. Now, you understand that Mr. Argento is also claiming that he had a talc exposure that had Page 4958 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asbestos contamination and that that is claimed by Mr. Argento to be a cause of his mesothelioma. You understand that's in this case. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have any opinion, whatsoever, on whether or not the talc was contaminated and could have been a contributing cause? A. In this case I don't have the information about the contamination of the talc, no. Q. And the basis for your opinion that Mr. Argento's mesothelioma was caused by occupational exposure at Hoffmann-LaRoche, give me again, please, the basis for that opinion? A. The fact that he had bilateral pleural plaques. The fact that he was a maintenance worker. The fact that he fit into the industry of oil and chemical refineries, both of which have accounted for long-term release. Fiber analysis we have done in those cases show increased amounts of amosite which correlates with exposure to insulation products. His own deposition testimony and what he told his doctors about being exposed to insulation. That makes it most likely that that was the most important exposure causing his disease. Q. All right, sir. Now, you also 41 (Pages 4955 - 4958) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4959 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understand, do you not, Doctor, that there's a claim before this jury that Mr. Argento smoked the original Kent and that that exposure to that filter contributed to cause his mesothelioma? You understand that that's a position. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have an opinion, sir, on that issue of the Kent being a contributing factor? A. I do. Q. And what is that opinion, please? A. I think it's unlikely. Q. And why do you think it unlikely, sir? A. Based on our own experience in analyzing lung tissue in individuals who have smoked Kent cigarettes as their only known exposure, and also based on my reconsideration of the information from the Longo study published in 1995. Q. Now, sir, based on your reconsideration of the Longo study, we've already talked about that the reconsideration was the basis of your change of position on that, have you formed an opinion on the reliability or validity of the Longo study in the Cancer Research paper that was published? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sidebar. Page 4961 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (At sidebar.) MR. MAIMON: Your Honor, I have the expert report served by the defendants in this case for Dr. Roggli specific to the Kent exposure. And he does not in here give any criticism of what Dr. Longo talked about the reliability. The most that he says is that "Although some studies have suggested fiber release from smoking Kent cigarettes, analyses of lung tissue samples from four individuals allegedly exposed to asbestos from Kent Micronite filters showed no detectable crocidolite fibers," and then citing to his own work on that. So he doesn't talk about the reliability of that testing at all in his expert report. And there's absolutely nothing in here which would hint -- he would not qualify as an expert in that. So it's beyond the scope of the proffer and it's beyond the disclosure. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, I think -- I think this is an expert witness. He's already criticized Dr. Longo. And as a scientist, as a medical researcher, I think he is entitled to give his opinion on whether or not Dr. Longo's work actually contributes to the scientific literature, or if he has -- whatever his opinion is on that, I think that it would inform the jury on what weight to give the competing experts. That's a function of experts that come in to give competing opinions. THE COURT: This exceeds the scope of this witness' area of expertise. His critique of Longo is based upon the EPA articles -MR. MAIMON: Berman and Crumb. THE COURT: Thank you, I couldn't remember Berman. And so to ask him this ultimate question, again, based upon someone who is not coming in here to testify, I think it's also a James v. Ruiz situation, so you cannot ask him that question. MR. CEDILLO: All right. THE COURT: All right. The objection is sustained. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: The objection is sustained. Please do not answer that question. MR. CEDILLO: May I proceed, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. Q. In your 1,445 study, sir, that's a peer-reviewed article, is it not? A. Yes. Q. And you did address whether smoking Page 4962 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 original Kent cigarettes is a likely cause mesothelioma, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And, Doctor, if the original Kent had caused or contributed to cause these mesotheliomas, would you expect to find crocidolite in the lung tissue? A. Yes. Q. And did you? A. No. Q. Have you ever found crocidolite in the lung tissue in your lab when people had other sources of crocidolite exposure? A. You mean other, like, occupational exposures? Q. Yes. A. Sure, yes. Q. The fact that you're not finding crocidolite in people who claim to have smoked Kent doesn't mean that you can't find crocidolite for some reason. When it's there, you can find it, can't you? A. Yes, we found crocidolite in quite a number of cases. In that article "Crocidolite and Mesothelioma," in 15 cases it was the only commercial amphibole present in increased levels. 42 (Pages 4959 - 4962) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4963 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You're familiar with the case report by Dodson and Hammar that was published in 2006. I believe you have that as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7? A. I'm not sure if I have it up here. I don't have it up here. Q. Let me hand it to you, sir, a copy of it. A. Thank you. Q. And my question to you on this, if you take a moment to review it, it was admitted as Exhibit 7. THE COURT: No, it was not offered for admission. MR. CEDILLO: Oh, it was only ID'd. I'm sorry. THE COURT: Correct. Q. Well, here's my question, sir: Would you characterize this article as an epidemiological study? A. No. Q. What is it? A. It's a case report. Q. And do you have any information regarding the subject of this Dodson and Hammar article? Page 4965 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4964 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And what is your assessment of the work and asbestos exposure histories that the authors provided in that article? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) THE COURT: Someone bring that article. Yes. The basis for your objection? MR. MAIMON: The basis for my objection, your Honor, is that the way that the question is phrased -- I know that earlier on Mr. Cedillo had asked Dr. Roggli if he had also analyzed lung tissue. And I know that he has. I don't object to him testifying about his own analysis of what he's done. But to be the conduit for hearsay testimony, hearsay evidence about what was told to whom, and all sorts of things like that, I think is improper for an expert to do. So I just wanted to have my concerns raised at sidebar. I don't know what he's going to say. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, I'll establish that he worked on this case. The question is did he form an assessment of the work and occupational histories that the authors here related in the article. And he did. And he's going to, if you'll permit me, tell this jury that they had it all wrong, that her only exposure wasn't Kent cigarettes. In fact, her husband worked at that Exxon plant and brought home all kinds of flavors of asbestos, and he found it in the lung tissue. MR. MAIMON: I don't know about flavors, your Honor, but I do know that Dodson and Hammar documented all asbestos fiber types in their article. So they didn't get it wrong, either. But that's the problem with these type of questions. What Mr. Cedillo is doing, he's testifying, and not Dr. Roggli. If Dr. Roggli wants to testify about what he analyzed from this case and actually did an analysis on what he found, what he concluded to that, I have no objection. But I do have an objection of him starting to talk about whether or not the husband worked at Exxon, because that's not in. THE COURT: Actually, it is. It says -MR. MAIMON: I didn't get it wrong, either. THE COURT: It says for the record on page 683, "The husband of the individual reported herein was reported as working as an engineer in an Page 4966 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 industry where asbestos was most likely in place." MR. MAIMON: Does it say Exxon? THE COURT: Not where I read. MR. MAIMON: Again, so that's my -- my objection is to have this witness be a conduit for hearsay testimony, which other Courts have said is improper. If he wants to talk about what he analyzed and compare it to what the article says, I'm prepared to cross-examine. THE COURT: The authors do say, too, Dr. Roggli in here and in their references, Roggli and Benning, 1990, "Asbestos Bodies in Pulmonary Hilar Lymph Nodes," published in Modern Pathology. Remind me again because it's been a while. This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 7. We have progressed since then. How did you utilize this in connection with -MR. MAIMON: When we had Dr. Moline on the stand, Dr. Moline referenced this as a learned treatise to support the proposition that crocidolite asbestos has been found in the lungs of mesothelioma patients. She did not say -- and Mr. Cedillo is wrong. Every time he says her only known exposure to asbestos was Kent cigarettes, that's not what it says. It says only documented, historically 43 (Pages 4963 - 4966) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4967 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 documented exposure to asbestos. But the authors here acknowledge that she had other exposures because they found it in her lung tissue. So no one is hiding the ball. Nothing is nefarious here as suggested by the questioning. Dr. Roggli looked at the slides, looked at the lung tissue, did his own analysis, and came to a different conclusion. That's fair game. What's not fair is to start talking about the hearsay statements that are contained in pleadings in that case, and depositions in that case, and all sorts of things in that case, which I'm assuming that they want to start having this witness testify to, and that's what I object to. MR. CEDILLO: The section, your Honor, begins with the title where they say that the woman's documented exposure was to asbestos from smoking the Kent cigarette. He came on board and he clarified. THE COURT: Are you planning on going into pleadings and -MR. CEDILLO: No. THE COURT: Okay. You're going to stick to this article? MR. CEDILLO: The article, itself. THE COURT: Go. MR. CEDILLO: Okay. Page 4969 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4968 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Okay. (End of sidebar.) Q. The question is simply do you have an assessment of the work and asbestos exposure history that the authors provided in this article, sir? A. Yes. Q. And the title of the article was, "Pleural Mesothelioma in a Woman Whose Documented Past Exposure to Asbestos Was From Smoking Asbestos-Containing Filtered Cigarettes." Correct? A. Yes. Q. And we know that can only be the Kent? A. Yes. Q. It was between '52 to '56. Correct? A. That's my understanding. Q. Did you do a fiber-burden analysis or an analysis of any kind on the patient who was the subject of this study, sir? A. I did. Q. Okay. And in that fiber burden, what did you find? A. As did Dr. Dodson, I found amosite to be present. Q. To your knowledge, was amosite ever used as the asbestos in the filtering agent of the original Kent cigarette? A. It was not. Q. Doctor, are there any epidemiological studies of mesothelioma in people whose only exposure to asbestos was from smoking original Kent cigarettes? A. No. Q. Are there any epidemiological studies of pleural plaques in people whose only exposure to asbestos was from smoking original Kent cigarettes? A. Not epidemiological studies, nor even case reports. Q. And if someone had a bilateral calcified pleural plaque, what does that indicate to you as to the level of asbestos exposure that he had? A. Most of the time, it indicates occupational level of exposure. In fact, we've published a study recently that shows what's called the positive predictive value of finding plaques in patients with mesotheliomas is 99 percent. That means 99 percent of the time you'll find elevated asbestos content when you do fiber analysis. Q. All right, sir. And then you've given us opinions Page 4970 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 regarding Dr. Longo's tests that he conducted for his Cancer Research article, have you not, sir? A. Yes. Q. And did Dr. Longo have controls in the testing that he conducted, sir, if you recall? A. Not that I recall. Q. Would you need a control from the -- the time period that you're testing the cigarette to make the testing more reliable, in your opinion? MR. MAIMON: Objection. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. MAIMON: I thought we dealt with this, your Honor. The reliability of the testing. Dr. Roggli's -- he didn't even remember whether or not there were controls or not, but now to start eliciting expert testimony on how to reliably do cigarette filter release testing is beyond the scope of his, number one, expertise, and number two, disclosure. So we object. MR. CEDILLO: It's a general question for a scientist that does these kinds of studies whether or not you should have a control. Is that a good thing to have? THE COURT: Well, he's a scientist that 44 (Pages 4967 - 4970) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - direct Page 4971 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 does fiber burden, pathology-related studies as opposed to smoking filter studies. MR. CEDILLO: Okay. THE COURT: So the objection is sustained. Before you go, how much further do you anticipate? MR. CEDILLO: I anticipate finishing before 12:30. THE COURT: Okay. Do you have any further direct? MR. BERGER: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Then we'll take the break after your direct. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: That objection is sustained. Please don't answer that question. Q. Dr. Roggli, are all of your publications peer-reviewed, sir? A. The ones that I have listed as peer-reviewed publications are, yes. Q. There are publications that you have that are not peer-reviewed, and therefore you don't list them. That's a better question. A. Well, no, I mean, chapters in books Page 4973 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4972 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 typically are not peer-reviewed. They're invited. The textbooks I've written, those typically are not peer-reviewed. Some publishers will send out a textbook and ask somebody to review it, but most times they're not. And letters to the editor, editorials, there are a number of those I've written. I'm not sure to what degree those are peer-reviewed either. Q. Now, it's a big deal to have something peer-reviewed, isn't it, sir? A. It's considered to be important in terms of what it adds to our scientific understanding and to the medical literature, yes. Q. So if you get something in a journal, it typically can be used by people to say that it informs their opinions. Correct? A. Sure. Q. And when something is supported by a plaintiff's group so that it can get published, sir, as a medical researcher and scientist, does that affect the weight that you would give it? A. Well, yeah. These days, we expect there to be disclosure in the -- in the text. Most journals will require that. If there is funding, for example, somebody has done research that's funded by a plaintiff group, you expect to see that in part of the disclosure that goes along with the published article. Q. So let's say an article gets disclosed that it was -- that it was funded by a plaintiff's group, after it's published with the support of the plaintiff's group, it's now available for people to use and point to to support opinions, isn't it? A. Yes. MR. CEDILLO: Thank you, Dr. Roggli. That's all I have for you right now, sir. THE COURT: Any further direct, Mr. Berger? MR. BERGER: No, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. We're going to take the lunch break now and then we'll come back and go to the cross-examination of Dr. Roggli. So leave your notebooks here. Remember to wear your juror badges. Remember all the discussions I've had with you with regard to doing any research or any discussions about this case. Thank you very much. And a member of my staff will pick you up downstairs at 1:30. Thank you. Page 4974 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (The jury leaves the courtroom.) THE COURT: Thank you, and we are off the record. (A lunch recess is taken.) (The jury enters the courtroom. The following takes place in the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Please be seated. Make sure your cell phones are turned off. If you are bringing back a beverage for the first time, why don't you open it now so we can all hear it and not later on. Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Maimon. MR. MAIMON: Thank you, your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MAIMON: Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Roggli. How are you? A. Good. Q. This is not the first time you and I have met. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. Both in depositions. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you are under oath and giving sworn testimony when you give depositions. Right? A. Sure. 45 (Pages 4971 - 4974) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4975 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. As well as trials before. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. All right. You introduced yourself to the members of the jury this morning. You told them that you are an expert in the field of pathology. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And you mentioned a little bit about some of your education and training and talked about being board certified in the field of pathology. Do you recall that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Board certification is not something that is peculiar or particular to the field of pathology, but all fields of medicine or all specialties within medicine have their respective boards. Correct? A. Specialties, yes, they do. Q. And those board certifications, whether you're a pulmonologist or an oncologist or a pathologist or an expert in occupational and environmental medicine, that testing for the level of competence that you spoke about earlier this morning for the Board of Pathology, that would be the same Page 4977 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4976 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for any board certification. Correct? A. I believe so. Q. Okay. And I think one of the things that you talked about that you are involved from -- as a pathologist in the diagnosis of mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And I think you mentioned that part of the numbers of cases of mesothelioma that you've seen have been people who happen to come to the hospital at Duke or at the VA who had mesothelioma; and in the course of looking to treat those patients, their slides, their pathology, their biopsies would come to your laboratory to confirm or question the diagnosis of mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. When in the hospital setting, when you are -- somebody has a biopsy taken, whether it's at surgery or at autopsy, and you're called upon to look at that, that diagnosis does not call for a determination of which product or products they may have been exposed to 30, 40 years prior contributed to their mesothelioma. Correct? A. That's true. Q. So within the role of pathologist, primarily you're called upon to confirm or call into question the diagnosis of the patient. Right? A. Well, partly. But we are also involved with causation. Any time that a surgeon takes a biopsy that's potentially a mesothelioma, we're always looking to see if the surgeon also obtained pleural plaques. If he did, we mention that in our report. If the surgeon happens to get lung tissue for some reason at the biopsy, we always look for asbestos bodies, and if we find them we report that. But we are involved with some degree to causation, but not specific products. Q. Okay. So that, generally speaking, the question of whether or not asbestos caused this disease or not, in general, that's something you might be involved with at the hospital level. Right? A. Correct. Q. But the question of this product or that product or looking into the occupational history of this patient, that's not something that you get involved in with the hospital. Right? A. True. Q. In fact, within the context of your practice, as a matter of routine, it's not your routine to sit down with patients and get an Page 4978 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 occupational history. Correct? A. Not my routine. I've done it before, but not my routine. Q. I understand. You may have done it on a few occasions. Right? A. Yes. Q. All right. So for instance -- and you've been chosen to be members of -- a member of various panels that look at the diagnosis of mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. One of those is the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel. Right? A. Yes, sir. Q. That, again, is dealing with the question of diagnosis of mesothelioma in the patient whose sample you're looking at. Right? A. Almost exclusively, yes. Q. And the question of what particular exposure might have caused that mesothelioma, that's not something that the U.S./Canadian Mesothelioma Panel is involved in. Correct? A. Yeah. It comes up, and I can remember an occasion in recent time it has. Q. And you're aware of other specialties, 46 (Pages 4975 - 4978) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4979 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 such as -- the jury heard Dr. Jacqueline Moline who is an expert in occupational and environmental medicine, you are not board certified in that area. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. You rendered a report August 27, 2013, in this case confirming that Mr. Argento suffered and died from malignant mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And that is a -- mesothelioma is a -- is a painful disease, is not? A. It tends to be, yes, sir. Q. And you would have expected from looking at Mr. Argento's medical records that he would have suffered significant pain from his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, and one of the things that you noted in Mr. Argento's medical records is the presence of bilateral calcified plaques. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And based on that and that alone, the diagnosis of mesothelioma and the presence of bilateral calcified plaques, you're able to determine that, more likely than not, his mesothelioma was Page 4981 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4980 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 caused by prior exposure to asbestos. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned some other potential causes of mesothelioma this morning. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. I think I recalled you talking about radiation therapy. Right? A. Yes. Q. And that's when somebody has a type of a cancer and they specifically radiate that tumor, there are some cases of mesothelioma that have developed in later years. Right? A. Yes. Q. You have no evidence that that played any role in Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. You mentioned some other non-asbestos type of materials. Erionite from Turkey, fluoro-edenite from Greece, you have no evidence that those materials played any role, whatsoever, in Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. Correct? A. That's correct. But I believe I said before the fluoro-edenite was from Sicily. Q. You're right. Okay. And anything other than asbestos exposure, you have no evidence caused or contributed to Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, in addition to the report that you issued on August 27, 2013 -MR. MAIMON: May I approach, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. That's P-130? MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. (P-130, Marked for Identification.) Q. I'm going to hand you what we've marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 130 for identification. And if you take a look at that, that's a report that you authored on October 2, 2013. Is that correct? A. It says October 3. Close enough. Q. October -- no, look at the second page. A. It says October 3, too. THE COURT: Do you want to check these, Counsel? Mine says October 3. MR. CEDILLO: Mine says October 3. MR. MAIMON: Okay. Okay. Can I borrow one of those? MR. CEDILLO: Sure. I'm okay, Judge. Q. And in that you indicated, you start off that letter by saying, "You have requested my further Page 4982 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 opinion concerning the etiology of the mesothelioma in the case of Michael C. -- Mr. Michael C. Argento as diagnosed in my prior report dated August 27, 2013." Correct? A. Yes. Q. And aside from putting the word "the" twice there, I quoted that correctly, did I not? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when you use the term "etiology," what you're talking about is what caused his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, in order to give an opinion on this subject, you were provided with -- by the lawyers who retained you, with material such as Mr. Argento's deposition. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you are testifying here on behalf of Lorillard Tobacco Company. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you're testifying here on behalf of Hollingsworth & Vose. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you see in Mr. Argento's 47 (Pages 4979 - 4982) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4983 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testimony his discussion of using joint compound on various home renovation projects? A. Yeah. I forgot to mention that when I described his exposures. Q. Right. And did you see his testimony about using various lawn products? A. Yes. Q. And did you see his testimony about working at Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. Yes. Q. Did you see his testimony about working at the "S" company, the Shulton Company, if I can jog your memory? A. Yes, sure. Q. And then did you see his testimony about smoking Kent cigarettes? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And let's take a look at these. And so this would be the potential contributory asbestos exposures in this case. Those five. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, the jury has already seen Mr. Argento's testimony in this case. And I'm going to give you sections of it, and if it's okay with you, ask you some questions. Okay? Page 4985 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4984 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Sure. (P-131, Marked for Identification.) Q. Okay. And this is Exhibit 131 for identification, which is the section of Mr. Argento's deposition testimony where he talks about the joint compound work that he did. And did you have an opportunity before you wrote your report to read Mr. Argento's testimony about this? A. I believe so. Q. Okay. Now, it's true, is it not, Dr. Roggli, that you reject any potential contribution to Mr. Argento's mesothelioma from his use of the joint compound? A. No. Q. So do you believe -A. We published two cases of -- of individuals with mesothelioma that we believe was related to exposure to joint compound. Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is whether or not in Mr. Argento's case, given the history that he gave there, whether or not you reject that exposure as contributing to his mesothelioma? A. No, I don't have enough information to tell one way or another. Q. So you can't say one way or another? A. Correct. Q. Okay. How many times did Mr. Argento use the joint compound? A. Let's see. I don't recall that, but I'm sure it probably says in here, in his testimony. I don't recall it specifically? I think he's saying, "You did this work? "The 15 years I was there. I don't know. Three times, twice." Is that what you're referring to? Q. Yes. A. In my opinion, that would not be a contributing factor. Q. Okay. So if that testimony was accurate and that's the extent to which he used the joint compound, you would reject that as a cause of his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And with regard to the Scotts Turf Builder, you understand that at various times Scotts Turf Builder products had -- withdrawn. One minute. Let's stick with the joint compound. Mr. Argento had malignant pleural mesothelioma. Correct? Page 4986 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And that's mesothelioma that arises in the lining of his lung, in the pleura. Right? A. Yes, sir. Q. There's another type of mesothelioma that arises in the peritoneum, the lining of the abdomen. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that's called peritoneal mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. It's true, is it not, that in the past you have testified that exposure to chrysotile-containing products can cause peritoneal mesothelioma? A. I may have, but not since 1997, I don't believe. Q. Okay. And you changed your mind about that. Right? A. Yeah, we did a study, actually, that was published this year, finally published this year. It was originally written by Dr. Oury in 1997, but sat around for all those years until we finally published it. Yeah, but from that study we did in 1997 48 (Pages 4983 - 4986) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4987 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was sort of an eye opener saying, oh my gosh, we don't have any cases of mesothelioma in which only chrysotile or tremolite were identified. Q. Okay. And that was based, again, on your lung digestion studies. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Scotts Turf Builder, you rejected that as a potential contributing cause to Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So that if the lawyers here were to have asked you prior to you coming in to give testimony, or prior to you writing the report, in this case, was the joint compound or the Turf Builder a cause of Mr. Argento's mesothelioma, you would have told them it was not. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. The next discussion there is asbestos insulation at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Now, earlier today, or right before we broke, you were talking about your article of the 1,445 cases that you had reviewed up until that time. Right? Page 4989 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4988 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And those cases primarily came from your files. Right? A. Yeah, they're all from my files. Q. Even though you had coauthors, the cases came from your files. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What percentage of those cases were -- came to you through your work as a consultant in litigation? A. Well, somewhere -- well, 80 to 85 percent, I would say. Q. Okay. And you mentioned that you categorized the different cases of mesothelioma first by industry and then by trade. Right? A. Yes. Q. And for Mr. Argento, you put his industry in, I think you said, chemical and oil for Hoffmann-LaRoche? A. What we did is when we did those, we put oil and chemical plants together, oil and chemical refineries together. Q. Okay. And you categorized Mr. Argento under the industry oil and chemicals. Right? A. The oil and chemical part of that, yes. Q. Okay. Are you aware that Hoffmann-LaRoche was a pharmaceutical company? A. I may have been. I don't recall. Q. And is it your testimony that that business here in New Jersey, Hoffmann-LaRoche, is equivalent to a chemical plant, a chemical refinery? A. In a lot of ways in the sense that the chemical refineries chemically had lots of insulation. There was lots of pipes that were insulated. And to the extent he had lots of pipes in the 141 buildings that were insulated that he was responsible for, I think it was similar in that respect. Q. Well, there were a lot of industries in that article that you talk about that have a lot of pipes. Right? A. Sure. Q. And I misplaced it, but I'll find it in a bit. In any event, you -- you were not aware that Hoffmann-LaRoche was a pharmaceutical -- do you recall Mr. Argento testifying that -- that Hoffmann-LaRoche was purely a pharmaceutical company when he worked there? A. I may have at the time that I reviewed Page 4990 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the deposition. I just didn't recall it. Q. Okay. You accepted Hoffmann-LaRoche as a potential contributory asbestos exposure towards his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then you noted, also, that Mr. Argento worked at Shulton Company. Correct? A. Yes. MR. DUNST: I'm going to object to this. May we approach? THE COURT: Sure. (At sidebar.) THE COURT: Yes. MR. DUNST: Your Honor, in Dr. Roggli's report -THE COURT: Which one? MR. DUNST: Well, as to they're both the same day and they both say essentially the same thing. MR. MAIMON: No, one was a diagnostic report, August 27th. MR. DUNST: Well, there's two of these reports both October 3rd. MR. MAIMON: This is the only one I'm using. 49 (Pages 4987 - 4990) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4991 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. DUNST: Okay. There's another one. Let's say it's this October 3rd report. THE COURT: Okay. MR. DUNST: On the very last page, Dr. Roggli says, "Exposure to asbestos from tremolite-containing talc may also have been a contributing factor." I respectfully suggest to the Court that this is insufficient for Dr. Roggli to render any opinions regarding that my client's talc being a substantial contributing factor. He, in fact, did say that he didn't have enough information on direct examination, but certainly here this "may" is the same thing as "possible." And he would not have been able to testify to that on direct examination; and for Mr. Maimon to cross-examine him about something that he wouldn't have been able to testify to on direct, I think is wrong. I don't know what Dr. Roggli is going to say, but certainly he's never disclosed anything regarding my client's product, and to go into it at all I think is improper. THE COURT: You had this report prior to today. Correct? Page 4993 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4992 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. DUNST: Of course. THE COURT: Okay. I just wanted to make 1 2 sure. 3 And on direct examination, you did 4 inquire with regard to -5 MR. CEDILLO: To elicit the response 6 that he had no opinion one way or the other. But he 7 didn't have enough information and I let it go. I 8 didn't go there at all. 9 THE COURT: Okay. And -10 MR. MAIMON: So this is within the scope 11 of the examination. It's in the scope of -- he 12 didn't say that the pipe insulation at 13 Hoffmann-LaRoche was a cause, either, in his report. 14 He says, "Exposure to asbestos by applying and 15 removing pipe insulation is a well-recognized cause 16 of mesothelioma in the United States." 17 There's a next step here which is 18 proper, and in certain circumstances it can and in 19 certain circumstances it may not. I'm going to 20 explore what he put in his report, the basis for it. 21 The fact that he told this jury he had no information 22 at all is belied by his report, it goes to not only 23 his credibility, but His whole task here was the 24 etiology of Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. I think it's 25 fair cross-examination. MR. DUNST: No, but I'm basing it, your Honor, from a disclosure point of view. He says "may." "May" is insufficient in order to be able to have an opinion for the jury, and therefore I think exploring it on cross-examination may be equally improper. MR. CEDILLO: Judge, I'm not a party in the fight except timing. I'm always the last one, and they're always telling me to hurry up. THE COURT: I don't tell you that. MR. CEDILLO: All of us want to hurry up. Except you. THE COURT: Well, that would be improper. Get to your point. MR. CEDILLO: It's exceeding the scope. I mean, I don't open up the area for discussion I get from him that he has no opinion on it. THE COURT: Well, okay. Your opinions with regard to this. So it does not exceed the scope. It did come up, and so it's proper cross. And it also goes to credibility that the witness testified he did not have enough information, so it goes to those two issues. All right. Continue. Page 4994 (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Maimon. Q. And so, Dr. Roggli, in your report you did address asbestos-containing talc at Shulton. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you accepted this as a potential contributory asbestos exposure for Mr. Argento. Correct? A. Assuming it was asbestos-containing talc, yes. Q. Okay. But in the last -- well, let's get -- let's get there in a minute. Ah-ha. Okay. The talc can be contaminated with tremolite asbestos. Correct? A. That's my understanding. Q. Okay. And you've written about that in the past, have you not? A. I have. Q. Okay. And with regard to -- you were shown some medical records from Mr. Argento, LTC-1 and 2, where he talked about asbestos exposure at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Do you recall those? A. Yes. 50 (Pages 4991 - 4994) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4995 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Now, there's nothing that you know about Kent cigarettes which would reveal to the person who was smoking them in the 1950s that they contained asbestos. Correct? Do you understand my question? A. You mean just by looking at the scientific literature? Q. Sure. The person who was smoking Kent cigarettes with the Micronite filter containing asbestos between 1952 and 1956, to the best of your knowledge -- and you shared with us some of your knowledge about what was in there -- was there anything about that that would alert the smoker to the fact that it contained asbestos? A. No. Q. And similarly, somebody working with the product that they called talc, if it had some tremolite contamination in it, there's no way that the user just by looking at it would know that it's contaminated with asbestos. Right? A. Well, you said two different things. You said tremolite, then you said asbestos. Q. Let me be clear. A. Okay. Q. If Mr. Argento was working near an Page 4997 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4996 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asbestos-contaminated talc at Shulton, there was no way a person working with such a product would know that it has asbestos in it if it's not labeled that way. Right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So that the fact that Mr. Argento told his doctors that he was exposed to asbestos or was working with asbestos at Hoffmann-LaRoche doesn't mean he wasn't exposed to asbestos in other ways, as well. Correct? A. True. Q. In fact, one of the things that you have found is that some people can be exposed to asbestos and not even know it. Right? A. Yes. Q. Because you could take a look at their lungs and find the asbestos in there when they don't even know that they were exposed. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And, in fact, there could be people who had exposures that they knew about which are revealed when you look at their lung tissue, and asbestos exposures that they didn't know about it which are revealed on lung digestion. Correct? A. That's also true, yes. Q. Okay. So we have that. And then for the Kent cigarettes, you rejected the potential contributory asbestos exposure towards his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, we talked a little bit about that, or you talked to counsel for Lorillard about that before, but it's true, is it not, Dr. Roggli, that if the only asbestos exposure that Mr. Argento had that anybody could find out about no matter how much they investigated -- and we'll talk about lung digestion in a minute -- but just by talking to him and everybody he knew, was to Kent cigarettes, you would still reject it as a contributory cause of his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And it's your understanding that he smoked approximately a pack and a half a day of those Kents. Correct? A. Yes. I think one place in the medical records mentioned two packs a day, but I don't know if that goes back to that period in time. Q. In your report you put a pack and a half a day. Right? A. That's correct. Page 4998 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And even if he were smoking two packs a day of Kent cigarettes during that period of time and that were his only asbestos exposure, you would say it played no role and his mesothelioma was just spontaneous. Just happened. Right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And if he smoked four packs of cigarettes a day, Kent cigarettes with the asbestos filter in it, you still would say didn't cause it, just spontaneous. Right? A. I've never seen anybody who did that. But if there were such a case, probably. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that you have a database where all this information is there. Correct? A. The information that I indicated, yes. Q. Okay. And one of the fields that you put in your database is whether or not who sent you the case to review. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And this would have been a defense lawyer who sent you the case. Right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And you were asked before whether or not you testified both for plaintiffs and 51 (Pages 4995 - 4998) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 4999 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 defendants. It's true, is it not, first of all, you never worked for my firm Levy Konigsberg. Right? A. That's correct. Q. And it's true, is it not, that within the last several years the vast majority of your consultation work has been for the defense. Correct? A. Yes. Q. In the database, so it's reflected who sent you the case, a defense attorney or a plaintiff's attorney. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then it says whether or not the result that you reached was positive for the person who sent it to you. Correct? A. Or negative or neutral. Q. Or neutral. Right. Then you talk about the different exposures there. Right? A. Yes. Q. Within the database -- first of all, do you have the entry of the database for Mr. Argento here with you? A. No. Q. Okay. Within the database entry, did you include the asbestos-containing talc at Shulton? A. I think so. Page 5001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5000 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You think so? A. I didn't write it down as being talc, but I think I included that 15 years at Shulton as part of the exposure, yes. Q. Okay. And as far as you know, the only possible asbestos-containing product that Mr. Argento was disposed to at Shulton was potentially asbestos-containing talc. Correct? A. The only one I heard about. Q. And that's the one in your report. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, let's talk a little bit about Mr. Argento's time at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Okay? A. Sure. (P-132, Marked for Identification.) Q. I'm handing you what I marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 132, and those are the portions of Mr. Argento's testimony which the jury has seen which discussed his work at Hoffmann-LaRoche. And you reviewed this material. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And if you could take a look at the end of the transcript here, pages 397 and 398. Just let me know when you're there. Okay? A. Okay. Q. Okay. First of all, in your report, you mention that from 1970 to 1985 he worked for Hoffmann-LaRoche in the maintenance department, paint shop division, where he painted all pipe insulation located in 141 buildings. He also removed and replaced insulation. Did I read that correctly? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. So first of all, one of the things Mr. Argento talked about was when he joined Hoffmann-LaRoche in 1970 he went into the paint department and was painting everything, including insulation. Right? A. Yes. Q. It's your understanding that he wasn't designated as the pipe painter, he was painting all sorts of things which included pipe insulation. Right? A. Yeah, it was part of his maintenance work. Q. Okay. And he was specifically within the paint shop division of the maintenance department. Correct? A. Yes. Page 5002 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Are painters part of your industries that are at risk for mesothelioma in your 1,445 article? A. I think. I have -- I think I've got the article here. I think the painters are under construction industry. I have to look back at it to be sure. Q. Take a look at Table 1, if you could. A. Yeah. So you can see there under C, "Construction includes construction worker, laborer, carpenter, painter, drywall/plasterer." Q. Okay. And so even though this is the types of workers there, what determines whether or not they get mesothelioma is their exposure to asbestos. Right? A. Yes. Q. You could have a construction worker who never touches asbestos and you wouldn't expect him to get mesothelioma. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Now, the -- when you take a look at a history -- so let's go on. The pipe painting, do you believe that Mr. Argento was exposed to a significant dose of asbestos in painting pipe insulation? Just painting 52 (Pages 4999 - 5002) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? A. Just doing the painting part? Q. Just doing the painting. A. I doubt it. Q. Okay. What you believe potentially exposed him to significant asbestos was removing and replacing insulation. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, one of the things -- there are a couple of things that you look at as an expert when you're evaluating causation from an exposure. One is the dose. Right? A. Yes. Q. And the dose is how much asbestos is in the air and how long the person is breathing that -- that air. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then one of the things that you look at is fiber type. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Because, as you noted earlier today, certain types of asbestos are more potent at causing mesothelioma than other types. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And so let's take a look at what Page 5005 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5004 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Argento said about his work removing and replacing mesothelioma -- I mean, asbestos pipe covering at -- at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Okay? A. Sure. Q. The first thing, did you notice that he talked about the fact that they set up clean rooms or pure rooms? Right? A. Yes. Q. And do you notice that he talked about it being almost like a cocoon where there would be plastic all around? Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall him testifying about wetting down the insulation before it was ever cut? Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall him testifying that anything that was cut off would be placed in an enclosed plastic bag? Right? A. Yes. Q. And that's important to you because if it's not enclosed, later on it has the potential to release more asbestos later on. Right? A. Sure. Q. And do you recall him testifying about wearing a respirator when doing this work? A. A mask. Q. Okay. And do you recall him testifying that he was certified? Right? A. Yes. Q. And OSHA certification requires wearing of respirators. Correct? A. Not familiar with all the details of OSHA certification for that sort of work. Q. Is it your understanding that people who are OSHA certified to remove asbestos from in place wear respirators? A. I would be surprised if they weren't. But, again, I haven't read the details of that, that litigation -- that legislation. Q. Given your expertise, you would expect it to be a respirator. Correct? A. Yes. Some form of protection of some type. Q. Now, one of the things we want to talk about when we're talking about a period like 1970 to 1985, is, for instance, when did all this happen. Correct? That would be important to know. Right? A. Yes. Q. All right. And do you see on page 397 Page 5006 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and 398 that Mr. Argento testified that he was only in charge of removing insulation into the 1980s when he became part of the insulation department? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, it's true, is it not, that the decrease -- that asbestos was banned from use in insulation products starting in 1972? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So that whatever was being replaced and put back on to those pipes after 1972 should not have been asbestos at all. Right? A. Depends. Q. Okay. Asbestos -- there was pipe covering that was put back on those pipes the way that Mr. Argento described it that would not have been asbestos in the 1980s. Correct? A. It depends. Q. Depends on what? A. It depends on -- my understanding is that whatever companies have in their inventory was not forbidden. They did not totally have to throw it away. I was never told that was the case. So if some companies had old insulation in inventory, they could have used it even if it had asbestos in it even in the 1980s. They couldn't buy insulation 53 (Pages 5003 - 5006) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5007 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 after '72, my understanding, that had asbestos in it, but if they had it in their inventory they could use it. Q. So in order for the new insulation that Mr. Argento put on in the 1980s that contained asbestos, it would have had to have lasted from 1972 into the 1980s, not been used up, and then he would have had to put that on. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall his testimony that whenever he would do that he would be in a clean room and he would be wearing the suit that he talked about, the protective clothing, and the respirator? Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And so it would be important for you when assessing what contribution, if any, his exposures at Hoffmann-LaRoche had to his mesothelioma to know whether or not the products that he was putting on contained asbestos. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And, now, you talked a little bit about that amosite was used in insulation products. Correct? A. Yes. Page 5009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5008 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And the fiber type that he might have been exposed to at Hoffmann-LaRoche would be an important consideration for you. Correct? A. Sure. Q. Okay. Now, it's true, is it not, Dr. Roggli, that you have no evidence of what type of fiber was in any of the insulation material that Mr. Argento came in contact with at Hoffmann-LaRoche? Correct? A. No direct evidence. That's true. Q. Okay. And you know that he was taking out asbestos. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Another word for taking out asbestos is abatement. Right? A. Yes. Q. You know that records are maintained of abatements pursuant to regulations? A. They are currently. I'm not sure about how far back that goes. Q. Okay. Do you know that when contractors go in and do abatements, they analyze bulk samples? They take sampling and determine whether or not what I'm taking out is asbestos; and if it is, there are special regulations to take it out. Right? A. Currently they do that, yes. Q. And part of that analysis is able to determine what fiber type of asbestos might be in the insulation material that's going to be removed. Correct? A. Sure. Q. Okay. Have you looked into any abatement records from Hoffmann-LaRoche during the time period that Mr. Argento worked there? A. I have not seen such records, no, sir. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that there are some types of insulation that are exclusively amosite. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you have no evidence in this case to support the contention that the type of insulation used at Hoffmann-LaRoche was that pure amosite. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. There were types of insulation materials including pipe coverings that had chrysotile. Right? A. As part of the composition, yes. And prior to 1956, I think there were some in which chrysotile was the only component. Page 5010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And, again, you don't know what type of asbestos fiber was in the -- in the insulation that Mr. Argento came into contact with Hoffmann-LaRoche. Correct? A. From his description of what he did and what the company did and what the plant was doing, it almost certainly was in that time period it would have to be amosite-containing insulation. Q. Okay. And the fact that it was hot applications. Is that right? A. That's part of it, yes. Q. How hot was it? A. I do not know. Q. Well, wasn't that one of the factors in whether or not to use an amosite-containing covering as opposed to a chrysotile-containing pipe covering, the temperature range that you're applying? A. I'm not familiar with that. I'm more familiar with the chemical corrosion of chrysotile for the Navy, for example, and shipbuilding you had to use amosite. Q. Okay. So that, for instance, there was some type -- there were types of materials that would be going through some of the piping, such as acids or caustic fluids that would require an amphibole. 54 (Pages 5007 - 5010) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5011 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Are you aware of whether or not any of those caustic fluids or acids were going through the piping of a pharmaceutical company in the 1970s and '80s? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. (P-133, Marked for Identification.) Q. I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 133 for identification. You're familiar with this article. Correct? A. Um-hum. Q. And you're familiar with it, it's an article in the American Review of Respiratory Disease from 1976. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And this is exactly around the time period that Mr. Argento started working over at -- or was working at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Right? A. Yes. Q. And this is published by an individual by the name of Dr. Margaret Becklake. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you have recognized Dr. Becklake as Page 5013 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5012 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 an expert in asbestos-related diseases. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And if you take a look on page 191 of the article, there is a table, Table 2. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And that talks about the varieties of asbestos properties, sources, and usage. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it talks about the different fiber types of asbestos, the same ones you talked about earlier today. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And under -- there's one section that's called "Serpentine." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And serpentine, the type of asbestos that that has is chrysotile. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And Dr. Becklake in this article in 1976 talks about insulation being the type -- being under the "Chrysotile" column. Right? A. That's what she says. Q. And she says that at this time, 1976, she drops two asterisks there that it's being phased out. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. In addition, she talks about cement products being chrysotile. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And for tremolite, she has "Used in the chemical industry as fillers and filters." Correct? A. Yes. Q. And "talc fillers." Do you see that? Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Or is that "filters"? I can't tell. Q. Maybe "filters." I don't know. A. Okay. Q. There's "fillers and filters." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell what the talc is? A. No. It's -- I'm not sure if it says "filters" or "fillers." Q. Okay. And for crocidolite, it lists "Textiles." Do you see that? A. For crocidolite. "Textiles." Yeah, I see it, yes. Page 5014 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. "Pressure pipes." Right? A. Yes. Q. "Cement products"? A. Yes. Q. That would be that asbestos cement pipe. Right? And those are pipes that are used as -- for sewage and for water to go through underground. Right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And then it talks about felts for plastics. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, that fiber type -- oh, another issue that you look at is dose. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you cannot say here with medical certainty or scientific certainty what Mr. Argento's dose of asbestos was from working at Hoffmann-LaRoche, can you? A. Correct. Q. And you don't -- you had no air monitoring data. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And if he was wearing a respirator and was wetting down the insulation and working in the 55 (Pages 5011 - 5014) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5015 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pure rooms and bagging the pipe covering as he -- as he described in the 1980s, you can't say that he had a dose that would cause mesothelioma, can you? A. I think in consideration of all the information available in this case, I think I would say yes. Q. One of the things that you have testified to before is that wetting down a pipe before you cut it can decrease the likelihood of breathing in significant fibers of respirable asbestos. Correct? A. It certainly reduces the amount of exposure, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And so you don't -- you cannot tell the jury how much asbestos Mr. Argento was exposed to at Hoffmann-LaRoche, can you? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. You've also testified in the past, have you not, that wearing a respirator mask further reduces the likelihood of breathing in significant amounts of fibers? Correct? A. It reduces the amount, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And if Mr. Argento was wearing a mask, is it still your testimony that he was exposed to enough asbestos -- you see here that he's talked Page 5017 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5016 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about always wearing protective clothing? 1 A. I remember him discussing about 2 protective clothing, yes. 3 Q. Okay. Take a look at page 399, starting 4 on line 12. "And did you -- every time that you went 5 into one of these plastic cocoons to supervise the 6 removal of any insulation, did you follow that 7 procedure every time?" 8 And he says, "That's the only thing you 9 could do." 10 "QUESTION: And did you wear the 11 protective clothing every time? 12 "ANSWER: Paper suit. Paper suit every 13 time. 14 "QUESTION: And did you get vacuumed off 15 every time?" 16 And he says, "Every time." 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So not only did Mr. Argento have the 20 paper suit on and the mask on, but he would get 21 vacuumed off. Is that your recollection? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. If the asbestos used at Hoffmann-LaRoche 24 was chrysotile, that would not have caused his 25 mesothelioma. Correct? A. If it were only chrysotile, then I would not have enough information to say that more likely than not it would cause it. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier today that there's a possibility that some insulation by mistake would have crocidolite where it was meant to have amosite. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You have no proof or no evidence that that was ever the case of anything that happened at Hoffmann-LaRoche, do you? A. No. Q. Okay. If that was the case and there was some crocidolite in some insulation there, it would be true that all you could say is that he -- if he also smoked Kent cigarettes and was exposed to crocidolite also in the workplace, that both would contribute to the crocidolite content of his lung and it would not be possible to say the relative contribution between the two. Is that fair? A. I would agree with the first part of that; but the latter part I don't think more likely than not would result in enough in the lung to be a contributing factor. Page 5018 Q. I'm talking about when you breathe in asbestos, it gets into your lung. Right? A. Yes. Q. And the more asbestos you breathe in, the more is there. Right? A. Yes. Q. And you can't tell by looking under your microscope which fiber came from which product, can you, aside from knowing if they're both the same fiber type in the products? Right? A. Well, that's true. But we've analyzed cases in which their only known exposure was through smoking Kents and found no crocidolite. But we found people who smoked Kents and worked in a working environment where they're exposed to crocidolite and we did find crocidolite. Q. Do you recall testifying as follows: "All one could say is that if the individual smoked Kent cigarettes" -MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, I object. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. CEDILLO: That's improper impeachment, your Honor. He's confronting him with something. There is the question that was asked. 56 (Pages 5015 - 5018) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5019 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Where is he reading from? MR. MAIMON: I'll show him the transcript. MR. CEDILLO: He just puts it up on the screen. I don't know where it comes from. THE COURT: You are going to provide counsel -MR. MAIMON: Of course. (End of sidebar.) (P-134, Marked for Identification.). Q. Dr. Roggli, I'm going to hand you up what we marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 134. And do you recognize that as the sworn deposition testimony that you gave on January 30th, 1996? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And this was a case in which you appeared as an expert for the plaintiff where the claim was that smoking Kent cigarettes caused that gentleman's mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And turn to page 15. A. Fifteen? Q. I'm sorry. At the end of 14. A. Okay. Q. You were asked in that case about the Page 5021 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5020 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 first case that you testified about Kent cigarettes causing mesothelioma. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And you were asked, "If that person was occupationally exposed to crocidolite asbestos or worked with products in the workplace that contained crocidolite asbestos, then the fact that crocidolite asbestos can be demonstrated in his tumor doesn't lead you to conclude that it had to have come from the cigarette. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is if you assume that that person worked with crocidolite asbestos products in the workplace, then you can't conclude with reasonable certainty that any crocidolite in his lung came from the cigarette as opposed to the workplace. Isn't that right?" Do you see that question? A. Yes. Q. And your answer was, "Well, I think that there's two answers to that. First of all, regarding that assumption, I have not been provided any information by anybody to corroborate that assumption that he was exposed to any crocidolite in the workplace. But to answer your question directly, all one could say is that if the individual smoked Kent cigarettes and was exposed to crocidolite in the workplace, that, in my opinion, both will contribute to his crocidolite content of his lung, but it would not be possible to say the relative contribution between the two." Did you testify that way? A. Yes. In 1996, I believe, which I've testified earlier this morning that that was the last case I testified for plaintiffs. Q. Okay. And that is exactly -A. That case. MR. MAIMON: Can I have the screen up. Q. That is exactly the quote that I have there that you gave testimony in 1996. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to move on in your report to the testimony that you gave about -- withdrawn. I'd like to move on in your report to the subject of Mr. Argento's work in the Shulton Company. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And that is the second paragraph of your October 3, 2013, report. Correct? October 2, I'm sorry. No, October 3. A. October 3 is the copy I have. Q. All right. The second paragraph. Do Page 5022 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you see that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And there you state, "It is my understanding that Mr. Argento was employed by Shulton Company and American Cyanamid in Clifton, New Jersey, from 1955 to 1970 as a machine operator, material handler, and mechanic on the production floor." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. You then go on to say, "His job responsibilities included working with and working around others using asbestos-containing talc." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. And those were your words, were they not? A. Well, that's what I was asked to assume. Q. It doesn't say that. It says your understanding. Correct? "It is my understanding." That's what you wrote. Right? A. Yes, but usually in the third paragraph it says, "assuming this information is correct" then. For some reason I don't have that statement "assuming information is correct" in this report. 57 (Pages 5019 - 5022) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5023 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, let's see what you wrote in this report. Okay? A. Sure. Q. You say, "It is my understanding" -that's the first three words of the second paragraph. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then you give the years of Mr. Argento's work at Shulton and his positions. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then you say, "His job responsibilities included working with and around -- working with and working around others using asbestos-containing talc." Did you write that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then, if you take a look at the last sentence of your report, you state, do you not, "Exposure to asbestiform tremolite contaminating talc may also have been a contributing factor." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Now, to be fair, the sentence before that you address his work at Hoffmann-LaRoche. Right? Page 5025 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5024 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And you say, "Exposure to asbestos from applying and removing pipe insulation is a well-recognized cause of mesothelioma in the United States." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Now, in this report, nowhere in this report do you say that working around or with insulation at Hoffmann-LaRoche caused Mr. Argento's mesothelioma. Correct? A. I probably don't say it directly in this report. That's correct. Q. Okay. And with regard to the talc, you say, "Exposure to asbestiform tremolite-contaminating talc may also have been a contributing factor." Correct? A. Yes. Q. And then you cite to an article titled "Tremolite and Mesothelioma" that you and Drs. Volmer, Butnor and Sporn published in 2002. Correct? A. Yes. (P-135, Marked for Identification.) Q. Okay. This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 135. That is exactly the article that you cite to. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that's your article. Right? A. It is. Q. Okay. And in that article you talk about cases from your database where commercial amphiboles, amosite or crocidolite, were not found, but tremolite was found in elevated levels. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you looked at two possible sources of where that tremolite came from. One was chrysotile and the other was talc. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you concluded that the tremolite that you found in the lungs of those mesothelioma patients correlated to both coming from chrysotile and also coming from talc. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier that -- that tremolite can contaminate chrysotile that comes from Canada. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's true, is it not, Dr. Roggli, that when tremolite contaminates chrysotile that comes from Canada, the level of contamination Page 5026 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is -- is less than 1 percent. Right? A. It's estimated between a tenth and 1 percent, yes. Q. So from .01 to .1. Right? One-tenth of 1 percent up to 1 percent, correct, contamination? A. Yes. Q. And despite being at such a low level of contamination, it's your conclusion that that tremolite at levels of one-tenth of 1 percent to 1 percent of contamination of chrysotile can cause mesothelioma in patients exposed to those products. Right? A. If they're exposed to a high enough dose, yes. Q. Okay. And the same thing would be true with talc, would it not, that if you have levels of contamination, the same levels of contamination, a very low asbestiform content, that contamination can cause mesothelioma in people exposed to enough of the product. Right? A. It could. And I think we reported one such case. It's Case 10 in Table 3. Q. Okay. Now, one of the things that you talk about when you talk about finding elevated levels of 58 (Pages 5023 - 5026) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5027 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asbestos in the lung tissues of mesothelioma patients 1 is comparing it to controls. Do you recall that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And counsel for Lorillard, when 4 he asked you questions, talked about control patients 5 that are not actual patients, are they? They're not 6 patients of yours, are they? 7 A. They were individuals who died at the 8 Durham VA hospital and were autopsied there. 9 Q. Okay. But they're not ongoing people 10 that you take lung tissue out of. They're cases that 11 you have access to their lung pathology and you use 12 that lung pathology as a control group. Right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, 15 Doctor, that it is important that the control group 16 not have people occupationally exposed to asbestos in 17 it in order to be an adequate control group? 18 A. As much as you can do that, yes. 19 Q. Okay. It's true, is it not, that some 20 of the cases in your control group, you don't know 21 what potential exposures to asbestos they had in the 22 past. Correct? 23 A. True. 24 Q. One of the people who you use as a 25 Page 5028 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 control was a gentleman, unfortunately, who suffered 1 from Alzheimer's and wasn't able to give an 2 occupational history. Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And to the extent that that person might 5 have had a significant occupational exposure to 6 asbestos, that would bring your control numbers up. 7 Right? 8 A. It has a potential to do that, but I 9 don't think it did. 10 Q. I understand that. And you also have 11 someone in your control group who served in the U.S. 12 Navy. Correct? 13 A. I have to look back at the study. I 14 don't recall that one. 15 Q. Okay. Let's leave that. 16 All right. In any event, you would 17 agree with me, would you not, Dr. Roggli, that 18 somebody exposed sufficiently to talc contaminated 19 with tremolite asbestos could develop a mesothelioma 20 as a result of that? Correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that would be at the levels that you 23 found applicable for exposure to chrysotile 24 contaminated with tremolite. Correct? 25 Page 5029 A. I have no idea what the level of contamination was in that one case we reported. Q. Okay. I'm not talking about the one case. I'm talking about chrysotile, chrysotile contaminated, as far as you know, with tremolite at about a tenth to 1 percent. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that level of contamination is not too small to contribute to somebody's mesothelioma, is it? A. If they have sufficient doses of exposure to chrysotile, that's correct. Q. Okay. (P-136, Marked for Identification.) Q. I'm also going to hand up to you what I marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 136, and this is another article that you authored. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And the title of this article is Asbestos-related diseases -- "Asbestos-Related Disease Associated With Exposure to Asbestiform Tremolite." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you published this in 1994. Page 5030 Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you see on the bottom there's an exhibit tab, Roggli 7. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that indicates that that was marked at one of your depositions. Right? A. I think it's been marked at several depositions, but this was from one of them, yes. Q. Okay. And if we can take a look at this, on page 2 -- or at the bottom of page 1, it says, "Although tremolite is not mined commercially, it is a common contaminant of other mineral deposits, such as chrysotile asbestos, vermiculite, and talc." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. It then goes on to say a sentence later, "Additionally, some end products contain these minerals, such as cosmetic talc or spackling compound which contains chrysotile and may present a potential source of tremolite exposure." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. It was your understanding that Mr. Argento was working in a facility at Shulton that was 59 (Pages 5027 - 5030) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 making cosmetic talc products. Correct? A. That's my understanding, yes. Q. Okay. Go down to the first full paragraph, where it says "Collectively." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. It says, "Collectively, these studies suggest that tremolite asbestos exposure represents a potential health risk, not only to miners and manufacturers of tremolite-contaminated mineral products, but also to those exposed to tremolite-contaminated end products." Right? A. Yes. Q. And that's the same subject that you addressed in the 2002 article, "Tremolite and Mesothelioma," that the tremolite asbestos coming from the end products, whether they be chrysotile or talc can cause mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Turn to page 817 of the article. The second full paragraph that starts "Women." Do you see that? A. 817? Q. 817. A. Okay. Page 5033 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5032 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Are you there? 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. It says, "Women represent 43 percent, 3 3 out of 7, of the cases in this study versus only 8 4 percent of the 153 mesothelioma cases with tissue 5 asbestos analysis in one of the author's consultation 6 files." 7 Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that gives "VLR." That's Victor 10 L. Roggli. Right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. It says, "A potential source of 13 exposure for these three cases was cosmetic talc 14 which may be contaminated with tremolite asbestos." 15 Did I read that correctly? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then at the bottom sentence of 18 the -- of the page says, "Furthermore, the finding of 19 relatively modest elevations of tremolite content in 20 some of our mesothelioma cases suggests to us that at 21 least for some susceptible individuals moderate 22 exposures to tremolite-contaminated dust can produce 23 malignant pleural mesothelioma." 24 Did I read that correctly? 25 A. Yes. Q. And, in fact, it's true, is it not, Dr. Roggli, that you have written urging doctors not to use talc for pleurodesis -- for a pleurodesis in patients with nonmalignant pleural effusions. Right? A. Correct. (P-137, Marked for Identification.) Q. And 137, Plaintiff's P-137 is exactly that letter to the editor that you wrote. Correct? A. Yes. Q. You wrote it together with Dr. Andrew Ghio, is it? A. Yes. Q. From the United States Environmental Protection Agency. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And you urged here that talc should not be used for pleurodesis in patients with nonmalignant pleural effusions. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And you'll agree I put a good picture of you on the screen there? A. It's not bad. Q. Not bad. Okay. And you say that on the bottom of the left-hand side, "Talc is not a uniform Page 5034 substance and varies significantly in size and chemical composition with the latter depending on geologic origin." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. You go on to say, "This sheet silicate can be contaminated by asbestos." Correct? A. Yes. Q. "And an association between carcinogenesis and exposure to asbestos included in talc appears credible." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And, in fact, later on in this letter to the editor you indicate here that even if a product is, quote unquote, asbestos free, it still shouldn't be used to put in people's bodies because the mechanism of cancer induced by asbestos is similarly pertinent to talc. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's true, is it not, that in addition to asbestos causing pleural plaques, talc can cause pleural plaques. A. Well, in that regard we talk about that 60 (Pages 5031 - 5034) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5035 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in Chapter 6 of my textbook, that some of the first cases of pleural plaques were found in talc miners, but we believe that was from contaminated tremolite. Q. Okay. Good enough. Now, again, if -- and let's go back to your report in this case. The information that you had when you wrote your report, you had -- withdrawn. The information that you had about Mr. Argento's work at Shulton is contained in your report. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you accepted exposure to asbestiform tremolite contaminating talc as a potential contributing factor to his mesothelioma. Correct? A. For the purposes of this report and assuming that it was correct that the talc he was exposed to was contaminated by asbestos, then yes. Q. And that is what you stated your understanding was at the time. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And if it was contaminated with asbestos, that talc that he was working with on the levels that you published upon in "Tremolite and Mesothelioma" and he was exposed to it as he described, then it would be your opinion, more likely than not, that that was a contributing factor to his Page 5037 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5036 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mesothelioma. MR. DUNST: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Don't answer. Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. DUNST: Your Honor, this goes back to my initial objection. My initial objection is that nowhere in Dr. Roggli's report does he indicate that based upon a reasonable degree of medical probability that my talc was a substantial contributing factor to the mesothelioma. He doesn't say it in his report. He didn't say it in the one question that was asked by Mr. Cedillo. To now be able to go into this when it's not disclosed in the report ever, I think it's inappropriate. And this is the reason I objected before because I knew that we were going to get to this point, and I don't think any of this should have been permitted for the reasons I've indicated. Because I know that we're going in this direction. He never said that it was a substantial contributing factor. He said it "may." That's like a possibility. It shouldn't have been allowed, and this shouldn't be allowed, either. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. MAIMON: I think this is appropriate cross-examination. He was called as the expert for the defense by Lorillard and H&V to discuss the causation in this case. He mentioned one product that he says that he believes was a cause. He mentioned one that he believes wasn't a cause. And he said, "I don't have enough information. I don't have any information about the others." We now know that he really does. He said it in his report. And so if the information that he had is correct, then that was also a contributing cause and that is perfectly appropriate cross-examination. The issue was raised by counsel for Lorillard on direct examination. And even if it wasn't, your Honor, I've been sitting at counsel table many a times when a defendant wants to go through all of Dr. Moline's causation opinions with regard to every product. And it's in her report, and it's in his report, and it may -- so that means there are circumstances in which it would be and circumstances where it might not be, and that's what I'm exploring with him. MR. DUNST: Your Honor, there's a significant difference in Dr. Moline's report. Dr. Moline indicated that those were, in fact, Page 5038 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 substantial contributing factors. She said they were substantial contributing factors based upon a reasonable degree of medical certainty. Nowhere did Dr. Roggli ever say that in the report. It has not been disclosed. And for Mr. Maimon to be able to go into it now I think is inappropriate because it's not been disclosed in his report. If this was all -- if what is contained in the report is all that Dr. Roggli said, that would not be permitted to come in if Mr. Cedillo wanted to put it in because I would have objected to it at that point because it's not based upon probabilities. He says it "may." Anything may. Anything is possible. That's not sufficient under the standards of New Jersey law. Now -- now Mr. Maimon is trying to do the same thing which couldn't be done if Mr. Cedillo tried to do it because it's not -- it's not adequately worded. It doesn't go to the standard that we have in New Jersey. And -- and I think it's important to stress the difference between Dr. Moline, because Dr. Moline in her report, she did say that each of those were substantial contributing factors, and she said that that was based upon 61 (Pages 5035 - 5038) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5039 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reasonable medical probability. There's a big difference. And we're now getting to the point, which is why I objected before because I knew that we were going to get here, and none of this should be permitted. THE COURT: Thank you. As I indicated previously, The Court's ruling, this did come up by way of direct, and the cross-examination goes into that, as well as issues of credibility. So I'm still allowing it, and you can cross-examine on it. Thank you. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: You can answer that question. The objection is overruled. Q. You don't remember the question, do you? A. No, if you could repeat it or read it back. Q. Okay. Let me try it again. If the talc that Mr. Argento was working with and around in Shulton was, as your understanding was in your report, contaminated with asbestos, and if it was contaminated with asbestos at a level that you assumed in your "Tremolite and Mesothelioma" article that chrysotile can be contaminated with Page 5041 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5040 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tremolite and cause mesothelioma, then that, on a more-likely-than-not basis, would have significantly contributed to his mesothelioma. Correct? A. I thought you were going to ask would be a potential exposure, which I would have said yes; but when you said now more likely than not, I'm trying to think if I have enough information to say so, because I haven't really been asked to look closely at his talc exposures. Q. Well, take a look at the last quote on the screen: "Exposure to asbestiform tremolite containing talc may also have been a contributing factor." A. Yes, I agree with that. Q. You acknowledge that you don't even have to think about it being a potential exposure. Right? A. Right. Q. Because you put that in your report. Right? A. Right. Q. And if he was exposed in the way that he described that you talked about in your report and that you reviewed in his deposition, and if the level of contamination was on the level of contamination that you have found tremolite asbestos to contaminate chrysotile and cause mesothelioma, then that was -- would have been, more likely than not, a significant contributing cause of his mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yeah. Typically, I would add to that, and would result in a level of tremolite in the lungs above background since that's what my reports that we're talking about have focused upon, it would be, yes. Q. All right. And as we said, when the surgeons operated on Mr. Argento, they didn't take lung tissue. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And taking lung tissue was not necessary or important for his care and treatment, was it? A. That's my understanding. Q. Okay. And so that there was no reason from a medical point of view to take any lung tissue from Mr. Argento. Correct? A. Not that I'm aware of. Q. Okay. Let's talk about Kent cigarettes. You testified at trial once that a gentleman's mesothelioma was caused by his smoking of Page 5042 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kent cigarettes. Correct? A. The last time I testified to that was in 1996 or 1997, yes. Q. At trial. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that was the case of Mr. Roth. Correct? A. No. That was the case of Mr. Lesnick in Philadelphia was the last one. Roth was prior to Lesnick. Q. Okay. So the first trial was Mr. Roth. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And it's true, is it not, that at that time you listed six reasons why you believe that his mesothelioma was caused by his smoking of Kent cigarettes. And I've listed those on the board. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So some of these you spoke about with Mr. Cedillo, but I'd like to talk about all of them. The first is the diagnostic findings of mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. 62 (Pages 5039 - 5042) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5043 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And then pleural plaque formation. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then amphiboles found on tissue analysis. Correct? A. Yes. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, can we approach? THE COURT: Sure. (At sidebar.) MR. CEDILLO: Number 6, your Honor, is the Talcott study. THE COURT: I didn't even read that far. MR. CEDILLO: Yeah, that's why I objected before we got there. You've ruled that the Talcott is out, and I certainly didn't go into any of that. I stayed away from the things that are out so that I wouldn't be opening them up here, and now he's going into them. MR. MAIMON: Well, I absolutely intend on going into it. THE COURT: What did you say? You absolutely intend? MR. MAIMON: Intend on going into it. THE COURT: After I ruled it out? Page 5045 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5044 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MAIMON: No. Because I want your Honor to hear his testimony about it. And then I think that your Honor will hear that this expert has testified in the past under oath, and he's testified since he's been working for Kent that his opinions haven't changed in this regard, and your Honor didn't hear that his opinions changed in this regard. THE COURT: Why didn't you bring it out when we argued the motion on Talcott? So his testimony for plaintiffs on Kent cigarettes was in 1997. The issue of the Talcott studies was out there. He has said that he testified since consistently now for the defendant. Why didn't you bring that out when we argued the Talcott motion? MR. MAIMON: I think I did, and it was a different issue with regard to talc. It was an issue about whether or not we could argue that -- about the Talcott study for purposes of opening statements about whether or not the H&V -- let me make my proffer, your Honor. This expert has testified both for plaintiffs, but then when he's testified for Lorillard and Kent he hasn't changed his opinion on the significance of it. That the -- that the mesothelioma experienced in both H&V and Lorillard is an important factor in his opinion about the ability to cause mesothelioma. In fact, he has said, and I have his testimony, that when you have mesothelioma in a manufacturing setting, exposure to that product, assuming that there's respirable asbestos, he accepts that that is a cause -- that that is supportive of his opinion that that product causes mesothelioma. THE COURT: Because we are not in a manufacturing setting, is why it's not in this case. So take number six out. I didn't let them get into it. I mean, we've already had this motion. MR. MAIMON: The other aspect of it, your Honor, is as follows: He testified on direct examination that crocidolite is more potent than other forms of asbestos. He uses the Talcott study and the other information to say that the crocidolite asbestos that went into the Lorillard cigarettes was the most -- even more potent than regular crocidolite asbestos, and he uses all these statistics. So I think that it's absolutely important and vital that we be able to explore this witness' testimony. It's not only regular crocidolite, but the crocidolite that went into their product according to Dr. Roggli is even more potent based on that data. Page 5046 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And if I'm not able to explore his opinions on that, your Honor, how can I adequately argue to the jury what the basis of that, you know, changing this assumption here versus that assumption there is important when I'm not able to explore all of the bases for his opinion, especially ones that haven't changed? His opinion up through a year or two ago when he made a presentation -- I have a slide on this -- his presentation about the experience in the filter setting shows that this crocidolite is more potent than any other. MR. CEDILLO: For a factory worker working with the product in the manufacturing stage. Mr. Argento didn't ever do any of that, your Honor. That's all the same reasons why it got taken out. And I mean -- and your Honor, I mean, I object to the way that this is being done. THE COURT: So do I. MR. CEDILLO: I certainly wanted you to hear that the reason he thinks Longo is junk science is because he knows that he published -- I'm sorry -- that he conducted testing that got 1/20th of the result that he published. THE COURT: Um-hum, yeah. MR. CEDILLO: And he had it and he chose 63 (Pages 5043 - 5046) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5047 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not to put it in there. THE COURT: I understand. MR. CEDILLO: And I certainly would want that to be heard. THE COURT: Thank you. Anything further? MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. He testified on direct examination that there were maybe three bases for his opinion about Kents when he was pro plaintiff. That's not true. There's a lot more. And it wasn't a factor for him to say that the potency of this crocidolite was because it was in the manufacturing setting. He believes that this particular type of crocidolite is more potent than normal crocidolite. It has nothing to do with whether it's in a manufacturing facility. THE COURT: Okay. All right. I'm ready to rule. So I previously heard a motion with regard to the Talcott studies. At that point in time I ruled that we are not going to get into it because it dealt with exposure in the workplace. Having ruled that, you had the information then with regard to the entirety of his testimony since switching sides on the Kent issue Page 5049 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5048 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 from the plaintiff to the defense. Now while he's on 2 the witness stand, putting up a slide, frankly, is 3 inappropriate. I should have been put on notice. 4 Certainly, counsel should have been put on notice. 5 This is not the time. So take number six out or take 6 the entire slide down. 7 MR. MAIMON: Okay. Could I have just a 8 couple minutes to do that, Judge? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 (End of sidebar.) 11 MR. MAIMON: May I, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. MAIMON: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Put it back on. 15 Q. Okay. Dr. Roggli, in the Roth case you 16 testified that you confirmed the diagnosis of 17 mesothelioma. Correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It was also important to you that there 20 was pleural plaques formation in the Roth case. 21 Correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It was also important to you that the analysis had been done on some of Mr. Roth's biopsy 24 25 tissue and found amphiboles. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it was important to you and a basis for your opinion that Kent contained crocidolite when Mr. Roth smoked them. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it was also important to you that scientific studies showed crocidolite released from Kents during smoking. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, with regard to Mr. Argento, it's true, is it not, that you confirmed the diagnosis of mesothelioma? Correct? A. Yes. Q. It's true, is it not, that Mr. Argento had pleural plaque formation? Correct? A. Yes. Q. And nobody looked for any amphiboles in his tissue. Correct? A. Yes, no analysis was done. Q. Okay. Now, the tissue that was looked at in the Roth case was not lung tissue like you've been talking to this jury about, but it was his pleural tumor tissue. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you found it significant that Page 5050 there was crocidolite asbestos found in his tumor tissue, did you not? A. Yeah. I'm not sure whether it was tumor tissue or just pleural tissue, but I think it was Dr. Longo's lab that did the analysis and I assumed that it was correct. Q. And you relied on that. Correct? A. Yes. Q. We'll talk about Dr. Longo in a bit. You, yourself, have analyzed pleural tissue in mesothelioma patients in the past. Correct? A. Well, one occasion I think I was asked to do so by a physician. Q. David Kern. Does that ring a bell? A. Yeah, I think it was Dr. Kern. And we did it because we were asked to do so, and we determined it was not -- I could not determine it was. Q. And you found asbestos in the pleural tissue that you looked at. Correct? A. Yes. Q. You found chrysotile asbestos in the tissue that you looked at. Right? A. Yes. Q. You could have looked at Mr. Argento's 64 (Pages 5047 - 5050) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5051 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pleural tissue. Correct? A. I could have. Q. Now, you assumed in your -- withdrawn. Back to your report. The second paragraph. Are you there? The last sentence. A. Yes. Q. It says, "Finally, Mr. Argento claims to have smoked Kent cigarettes with the Micronite filter at the rate of at least a pack and a half per day from 1953 to 1956." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And that would be at a time when those filters contain asbestos. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you are aware, are you not, of scientific studies showing the release of crocidolite from Kents during smoking? Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that this was in the Roth case and that there was a subsequent case to Roth. It was called Lesnick. Right? A. Lesnick. Yes. Q. And you have the transcript of your deposition in front of you. Right? A. Do I? Yes. Page 5053 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5052 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And look at pages 7 through 10. Do you there describe the reasons why you believe that Mr. Lesnick's mesothelioma was caused by him smoking Kent cigarettes? A. Yes. Q. You mention there that crocidolite is the most potent form of asbestos in causing mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. One of the things that is important is the thinness of the fiber. Correct? A. That's part of it. It's the overall aspect ratio and durability that's important. Q. Okay. And crocidolite is -- when you say aspect ratio, you mean how long it is comparing to how thin it is. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And crocidolite asbestos is a long, thin fiber. Correct? A. Typically, yes. Q. Okay. Sometimes it can be so thin that it can escape detection in the microscope that you use in your laboratory. Correct? A. Sometimes. Q. Okay. And when you -- so crocidolite is the most potent form of asbestos in causing mesothelioma. Correct? A. Most potent, yes. Q. Okay. And there are different types of crocidolite from different parts of the world. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And is it your opinion that the crocidolite that was used in the Kent cigarettes was a particularly potent type of crocidolite? A. I think so. Q. Okay. So that on the -- on the grades of crocidolite, there are some that are more potent and some that are less potent, even within crocidolite, itself. Right? A. Yes. Q. And it's your opinion that the crocidolite used in Kent cigarettes was a particularly potent type of crocidolite. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you're aware, are you not, that one of the reasons that the crocidolite asbestos was put into the Kent cigarette filters was because of the thinness of it? Were you aware of that? A. I was aware because of its Page 5054 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 absorbability, its ability to absorb to its surface and makes it more act as a filtering agent. Q. If Lorillard put up an expert that said that it was the very, very thinness of those fibers that made it a good filtering material, you'd accept that, wouldn't you? A. I have no reason to disagree with it. Q. Okay. And you testified at that time that there were scientific studies that have demonstrated the release of fibers from smoking Kent cigarettes. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And in that case you made an estimate, like you told the jury earlier, about the amount of crocidolite asbestos that would be in the lung tissue of a Kent smoker. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you talked about in that case animal studies demonstrating the propensity of crocidolite to reach the pleura. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you also talked about having relied on the identification of crocidolite fibers in tissue samples of Kent smokers with mesothelioma. Correct? A. Where is that? 65 (Pages 5051 - 5054) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5055 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Page 9, lines 10 through 15. A. Okay. Q. You see that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you also relied on the fact that in your opinion the background or ambient level of crocidolite in the air is zero. Right? A. Essentially, yes. Q. Okay. And then your own -- you relied on your own semiquantitative epidemiologic study of women with mesothelioma related to the percentage of women with mesothelioma who smoked Kents compared to Kent's market share for the relative years. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So I've put on the board all of those that we just talked about. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let's talk about them one by one. Crocidolite is the most potent form of asbestos in causing mesothelioma. Right? A. Yes. Q. And when you have talked about that in the past, you referred to the Hodgson and Darnton article which says that crocidolite is 500 times more potent than chrysotile. Correct? Page 5057 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5056 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And Berman and Crump, who you talked about earlier, have given estimates that crocidolite may be a thousand times more potent than chrysotile. Correct? A. Yeah, I think that their numbers are 700 to 800 times, yes. Q. Okay. We'll fix that. The crocidolite that was used in the Kent cigarettes, would those be more towards the 7 or 800 times or would those be more towards the 500 times? A. Well, I don't think you can use the 7 or 800 times from Berman and Crump because they're based on electron microscopy and based on fibers that are 10 microns or greater in length. And so there's no data on that. So what we have is basically the Hodgson and Darnton phase contrast microscopy, so that's what we have to rely upon. Q. Okay. So that dealt with a whole host of people exposed to crocidolite asbestos and given an average of relative potency. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So that average would have some lower and some higher. Right? A. Yes. Q. And the crocidolite in the Kents, how much more potent relative to chrysotile would they be? A. I would use the 500 times potency number for that. Q. Okay. Now, scientific studies demonstrating the release of fibers from smoking Kents. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And at that time you relied on various studies that had been done, the Fullam studies, the Revere studies, something you called the OCF test, the Pauley article, and the Longo article. Right? A. Yes. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. The only thing I covered -- sorry. THE COURT: Sidebar. (At sidebar.) MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, it exceeds the scope, except for Longo. I didn't ask him about any of the others. I could have. I did it on purpose because I wanted to cut it down completely. It exceeds the scope. Page 5058 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MAIMON: The scope of cross-examination is in the subject area. The fact that he chose not to talk about tests that showed the release of asbestos fibers that this expert has relied upon in the past was his choice. It doesn't limit me from going into the fact that he has testified in the past that they were reliable and on the basis of him saying that asbestos can cause mesothelioma. MR. CEDILLO: I will redirect him on those topics. Okay? THE COURT: Absolutely. MR. CEDILLO: Okay. THE COURT: All right. Let's continue. After you finish this slide, we're going to take the break. MR. MAIMON: Do you want to take it now? Because this subject area will take a little bit. THE COURT: Okay. That's fine. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: Members of the jury, we're going to take our 15-minute break now so I don't interrupt this line of testimony later on. So remember to leave your notebooks here. Wear your juror badges. Remember my instructions. A 66 (Pages 5055 - 5058) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5059 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 member of my staff will be down shortly before 3:30 to pick you up. (The jury leaves the courtroom.) THE COURT: And we are off the record. (A recess is taken.) (The jury enters the courtroom. The following takes place in the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Please be seated. Make sure your cell phones are shut off. Mr. Maimon, you may continue. Get the screen back up. MR. MAIMON: Thank you. Q. Doctor, we are at number 3 with regard to scientific studies that you testified in the Lesnick case had demonstrated release of fibers from smoking Kents. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And the first mention up there is the Fullam studies. Do you recall those? A. Yes. Q. And, in fact, in 1996 and 1997, when you were testifying that Kents caused mesothelioma, you were aware of those studies, were you not? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And one of the things that you Page 5061 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5060 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had actually seen is you had actually seen the photomicrographs of the crocidolite fibers that were released from the Kent cigarettes taken in Dr. Fullam's laboratory. Correct? A. The electron micrographs. Q. The electron micrographs. And you relied on that finding as part of the bases for your opinion at the time. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you saw large numbers of electron micrographs with those fibers. Correct? A. There were several, yes. Q. Okay. You also made reference at that time to the studies of Althea Revere which showed asbestos released from smoking Kent cigarettes. Correct? A. Maybe. I don't recall that. Q. Okay. There's something -- they are called OCF. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And at that time you relied on a test that had been done where the filter of a Kent cigarette or a Kent cigarette was tapped on some glass, and crocidolite fibers were released; and it was your opinion that what that tells you is that the fibers aren't packed all that tight into the filter which means that fibers might be released if you smoke the cigarettes which you would have to demonstrate such as the case that was done by Fullam, Revere, and Dr. Longo's laboratory. Do you recall giving that testimony? A. Yes. Q. In addition, there was the article by Dr. Pauley. Dr. Cummings was here earlier in the trial and he gave some testimony about that. But that was study that you had reviewed, a published study, that showed that filtered cigarettes are capable of disintegrating during smoking and releasing fibers of various types. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And you relied on that in those cases. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And it was your testimony at that time, wasn't it, that you can't look at -- even though Pauley wasn't looking at Kent cigarettes or cigarettes that had asbestos filters, you can't look at Pauley in isolation, that you have to look at Fullam, you have to look at Revere, and you have to Page 5062 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 look at the OCF study, and you have to look at what Dr. Longo did. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then you also take into consideration Dr. Longo's published article in 1995 in Cancer Research titled, "Crocidolite Asbestos Fibers in Smoke From Original Kent Cigarettes." And you have that up there with you. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. If you can get that out. You know Dr. Longo. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you two have published together, have you not? A. We have. Q. In fact, the jury has seen me hold this book up before, The Third Wave of Asbestos Disease, Exposure to Asbestos in Place. And there's an article in here, "Mineral Fiber Content of Lung Tissue in Patients With Environmental Exposures, Household Context Versus Building Occupants," by Victor L. Roggli and William E. Longo. Right? A. Yes. Q. And this is one of the things that the two of you have published together. Correct? 67 (Pages 5059 - 5062) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5063 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. You consider Dr. Roggli an expert in material analysis. Correct? Or Dr. Longo. What did I say? THE COURT: Longo. Q. Do you consider Dr. Roggli an expert in material analysis? Correct? THE COURT: You said it again. MR. MAIMON: Did I say it again? I'm not going to ask whether or not I should sit down. Q. Dr. Longo is an expert in material analysis. Correct? MR. CEDILLO: May we approach, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. (At sidebar.) MR. CEDILLO: I wasn't allowed to get into his assessment of Dr. Longo on whether he's a junk scientist or not, or anything else. He's now going into building up Longo because you guys know each other and you've done this and done that. I want to make it very clear that I consider this opening the door, and I'm going to go in and ask him what he thinks of Dr. Longo because he is bringing out that Longo is an expert in material Page 5065 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5064 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sciences. I wasn't allowed to go into that at all, and now counsel is opening that door. THE COURT: I didn't allow you to go into the unpublished studies of Longo. That's what I didn't allow you to do. Certainly now that plaintiff's counsel has said you consider him an expert in -MR. CEDILLO: Material scientist. THE COURT: -- material scientist, on redirect, if you have anything with regard to him not being an expert in that area, that's fine. MR. CEDILLO: Thank you. I'll go into that. All right. It's open. THE COURT: And any other areas -MR. MAIMON: I don't know that counsel's idea of what door has been opened is the same as the Court's. THE COURT: If there's any information out there that counsel wishes to use that would go into the issue of whether or not Dr. Longo is not an expert in that area -MR. MAIMON: I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. THE COURT: -- or any other areas. MR. MAIMON: I was just concerned, your Honor, with Mr. Cedillo proclaiming that the door is open to do -- how he wants to do whatever he wants. THE COURT: Hey, let's not do that. All right? It's late in the day and it's a Monday. Can we just like get to it already? All right. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: Don't ask Dr. Longo that question again. MR. MAIMON: I won't ask Dr. Longo again. Q. You consider Dr. Longo to be a qualified analyst. Correct? A. A materials analysis scientist, yes. Q. And careful scientist. Correct? A. Most of the time. Q. Okay. You're familiar with his 1995 article. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And in previous testimony you've relied upon it in offering opinions. Correct? A. Yes. Q. In fact, you were asked this particular question in 19 -- I think it was -- yes, 1996, at the Roth trial. "Dr. Roggli, in fact, what conclusions did you rely upon from" -- I'm sorry. Page 5066 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "Dr. Roggli, in fact, what conclusions do you rely upon from Dr. Longo in regard the ability of the Kent cigarettes to release asbestos fibers?" And you say, "Well, Dr. Longo's quantitative studies and the earlier qualitative studies indicates that the third point, crocidolite fibers are released from Kent cigarettes during the smoking process." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. And when you're talking about the earlier qualitative studies, you were talking about Fullam, Revere, and OCF. Correct? A. Let's go back to that statement. Q. Qualitative studies. Right? A. Yes. Q. Now, you have the article with you? A. Yes. Q. Dr. Roggli here talks about the testing that he did. Do you see that under "Treatments and Smoking"? A. Dr. Longo? Q. I'm sorry. Dr. Longo -- this article talks about the testing that was done. Right? A. Yes. 68 (Pages 5063 - 5066) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5067 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. It says, "Two puffs were taken from each of nine cigarettes." Right? A. Trying to check what sentence you're reading there. Oh, yeah, I got it. Q. Okay? It says, "Before insertion into the smoker, three of the cigarette filters were rolled and three were pinched and then the remaining three were not manipulated prior to insertion into the apparatus." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. He then says one sentence down, "After lighting, the plunger was pulled to 30 plus or minus milliliters within one to two seconds, and the cigarette was extinguished by capping with a preformed aluminum foil snuffer." And did I read that correctly. A. Yes. Q. And milliliter, ml, is the same as a cc. Right? A. Yes. Q. And so to simulate one puff he pulled 30 cc's. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, the next paragraph talks Page 5069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I think it dealt with that issue, yes. Q. And this does not say anything about sonication, this talks about shaking the vial of liquid. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. By the way, the tissue digestion and analysis of asbestos fibers from the lung tissue that you do is also an indirect preparation method. Correct? A. In what sense? Q. Well, the tissues -- the asbestos fibers aren't directly onto a filter. You -- you soak them in bleach in order to get rid of the organic material. Right? A. Yes. Q. And then you take a solution of that and put it onto your grids. Right? A. We actually dissolve the tissue in bleach and then all that bleach goes through onto the filter. Q. Okay. So that's not originally -- my point is it's not originally on the filter. Right? A. What's not originally on the filter? Q. The tissue. A. You can't put the tissue directly onto a Page 5068 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about what he did after he got the puff out. "The puff residue inside the smoker was prepared and examined as follows: The plunger was reinserted. The syringe assembly was filled with 20 millimeters of deionized distilled H2O, capped with paraffin, hand shaken, and allowed to stand for 30 minutes." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. Okay. "And then after standing, the syringes were hand shaken, filled with 30 millimeters with deionized distilled H2O, and then the contents were pulled through a 30-millimeter filter." Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And that is that consistent with what you testified earlier that the smoking was not directly onto a filter, but it was washed out and then put onto a filter which would indicate an indirect preparation method. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, you're aware, are you not, that the writings by Berman and Crump about the indirect prep method were dealing with high-intensity sonication, wherein you're sonicating materials that might be in clusters of asbestos? Right? Page 5070 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 filter. Q. A. Q. I understand that. Yeah. Okay. Good. Dr. Longo did use controls and blanks, did he not? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And Dr. Longo, in the last page of the article, left-hand side, first full paragraph says, "Our data probably underestimate the amount of crocidolite released in an actual smoking situation for three reasons." Do you see that? A. Which page is that? Q. 2235. A. Yeah, I see that. Q. Okay. And then he gives the three reasons as A, B, and C. Correct? A. Yes. Q. A was These tests only smoke -- "These tests examined only smoke from the first two puffs, and there was still substantial release of asbestos during the second puff." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. 69 (Pages 5067 - 5070) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5071 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. In fact, Dr. Roggli estimated -- I'm sorry. "Dr. Longo estimated that the asbestos from the first two puffs of the cigarette represented less than .001 percent of the crocidolite that was in the filter." Correct? I'm reading on 2234, top of the right-hand side. A. Yes. Q. Okay. In any event, this was only from two puffs, correct, his data? A. Yes. Q. Go to 2235, B, "The numbers given in conformance with EPA counting rules reflect structures and not fibers." Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that's those aggregates that you talked about earlier this morning. Right? A. Yes. Q. And now he says here that overall 18.7 percent of the structures were aggregates rather than individual fibers. Right? A. Yes. Q. You have no idea, do you, what percentage of those -- withdrawn. What is the maximum diameter that would be able to be inhaled and get to the outermost area Page 5073 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And these are the -- that's the crocidolite that he found. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And there are fibers and there are clusters there. Right? A. Well, I mean, that's pretty much stuck together. You would have to say the whole thing is a cluster. Q. So you're saying that all of this is stuck together? A. That's what it looks like from the picture. All the fibers are touching each other. I don't see any fiber sitting out free from the rest of the group. Q. Do you know how they are together? This is on a -- magnified 3000 times. Right? A. Yes. Q. And this is a picture on the filter. Right? A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether or not these are one fiber or fibers laid one over the other or whether or not they're actually stuck together? A. They look like they're stuck together. Page 5072 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of the lungs? A. About 5 microns. Q. Okay. You have no idea what percentage of that 18.7 percent were larger than 5 microns in diameter, do you? A. True. Q. Okay. Here he talks about those aggregates being sometimes three, and oftentimes hundreds of fibers. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And so out of -- so we know that for 81.3 percent of what he found, those were fibers and not structures. Correct? By doing reverse math. A. Yes, by his indirect method, that's correct. Q. Okay. And out of that 18.7 percent, you have no idea how many of them would be above or below 5 microns in diameter. Correct? A. Yeah. Again, certainly, he can say from Figure 4 above there that there is a 10-micron bar, and that cluster there is hugely bigger than 5 microns in diameter. Q. Do you know what -- can I have the Elmo, please? That's the picture you're referring to. Right? Page 5074 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. But you don't know, do you? I can't say with 100 percent certainty. MR. MAIMON: Let's go back to the desk, please. Q. Now, you also talked about making estimates of crocidolite burdens in the lung tissue. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And what you did back then is you started with Dr. Longo's numbers of 132 million fibers for one pack per day for a year. You applied the 65 percent. You applied a half-life. And then you used the dry weight of the lung as an average. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, when you do your lung digestions, I just want to make sure we're clear, you're not looking at the whole lung, are you? A. No. Q. In fact, when you do a lung burden study and you're looking at someone's lungs, you're not looking at 99.95 percent of the person's total lung tissue, are you? A. 99.95? Q. 99.95. 70 (Pages 5071 - 5074) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5075 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I'm not sure how you get to that number. (P-138, Marked for Identification.) Q. 138 is your trial testimony on September 21, 2015. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And this was in a case in Pennsylvania. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And if you take a look at page 127. A. I'm there. Q. Line 22. "QUESTION: So when you do a lung burden study and you're not -- your look at someone's lung tissue, you're not looking at 99.95 percent of that person's total lung tissue. Correct?" And your answer was, "Correct." Right? A. Yeah, based on the line before I said it's about .5 percent, and that would be true, yes. Q. Okay. And so when you take a look at -- and you told us you bleach it and then you count the asbestos fibers there. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. You count a certain number of fibers on a grid. Right? A. Certain number of fields or certain Page 5077 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5076 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 number of fibers, whichever comes first. Q. Okay. And the numbers that you count aren't the total number of asbestos fibers in the lung. Right? A. Correct. Q. You extrapolate in order to get what you consider to be the total number of asbestos fibers in the lung. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, you also have testified in the past, haven't you, Doctor, that there's a difference -- or there was a difference in your mind between looking at, like, an occupational setting where somebody is in an atmosphere that might have some asbestos in it and somebody actually putting a Kent cigarette, filtered cigarette to their mouth and breathing it in directly as far as the ability to deposit particles and asbestos in the lung. Right? A. Yes. I think I agreed there might be some differences there. Q. And you've stated that, "All that I can say is that as opposed to breathing asbestos in a workplace situation where a number of people are sharing the same air and some of the fibers are breathed by different individuals, some of the fibers fall onto the floor, some of the fibers remain unbreathed in the air, that any fibers that would be released from a filter in a smoking product would be deposited directly into the lungs." That was your testimony at the time. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you said, "And clearance, that would probably follow the same clearance pattern that you see for crocidolite once it's deposited from any other source." Right? A. Yes. Q. And you have the same testimony. You haven't changed your mind about that, have you? Crocidolite clears from the lung at the same rate and in the same way no matter whether or not it comes from a Kent cigarette or from an asbestos in a pipe. Right? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Now, you said that the -- the change in your opinion about depositing and clearing came from a Berman and Crump publication? Right? A. I believe so. Q. Now, you know, don't you, that Berman Page 5078 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and Crump, their work for the EPA has been rejected by the EPA. Correct? A. A bin model based upon their analysis, which was not -- actually, the bin model was not made by Berman and Crump, but by someone else, was rejected by the EPA, yes. Q. Okay. And Berman and Crump have consulted for the asbestos industry, especially Kenny Crump, over many decades. Is that correct? A. I don't know about his consultation history. Q. Are you aware that he testified in front of OSHA on behalf of the Asbestos Information Association, a trade group that was opposing OSHA regulations in 1972? A. I may have heard that one time. I don't recall, as I sit here today. Q. Okay. Their numbers -- and they're talking about depositing of asbestos in the lungs -- was not dealing with a situation where you're breathing it directly from a filtered cigarette. That was occupational settings. Correct? A. Yeah. I don't think -- I don't recall them dealing with the issue of breathing straight from a cigarette, no. 71 (Pages 5075 - 5078) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5079 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. You have relied in the past of animal studies that show that within ten days after initial exposure crocidolite reaches the pleural space in animal studies. Correct? A. Yes. That was -- I think we had a three-week exposure, and then within ten days after the end of that exposure we identified crocidolite in the pleural space, yes. Q. Okay. And that was one of the bases for your opinion when you testified that exposure to Kent -- crocidolite asbestos from Kents could cause mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then you relied on identification of crocidolite fibers in tissue samples of people who had smoked Kents with mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yeah. There's -- there were three cases, apparently, that I don't -- that -- the Brown case, I think, was one that I analyzed and did not find any crocidolite. Q. Right. A. The Roth case was one that Dr. -Q. Longo. A. Dr. Longo, yes. Page 5081 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5080 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I got it right. 1 A. -- Dr. Longo analyzed and found 2 crocidolite, a crocidolite fiber, at least a 3 crocidolite fiber in the pleural tissues. 4 And then the Szymczak case, I think, one 5 that Dr. Churg analyzed, and I don't know if that was 6 smoking only or if there was also occupational 7 exposure in that case. 8 Q. In any event, you were 9 asked by -- talked about the cross-examination by the 10 lawyers for Lorillard. Do you recall that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you were asked by them in deposition 13 that even if you, yourself, did digestion on five 14 former Kent smokers with mesothelioma and failed to 15 find elevated crocidolite levels, whether you could 16 exclude Kents as a causative factor in the next case 17 that came to you. Do you recall that? 18 A. In 1996? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I don't recall that specific question, 21 no. 22 Q. Okay. 23 (P-139, Marked for Identification.) 24 Q. I'm giving you your deposition testimony 25 from the Roth case. Do you recognize that? A. Yes. Q. And if you take a look at page 249. Actually, it starts -- yes, 249. You were asked, "How many cases would you need to see, how many cases of individuals, how many individuals would you need to see in which it was claimed that they smoked this cigarette and in which it was claimed that it released asbestos and which it was claimed that it caused or contributed to causing the disease before you would be reasonably certain that the cigarette did, in fact, play a causal role in the development of the disease?" And then that was interrupted, and then you were asked, "Doctor, you told us, I think, that you would need to see more than five to conclude it didn't. I want to know how many you'd need to see to conclude it?" And your answer was: "If you had -- and let's just throw out mesothelioma. I don't care whether the individual has mesothelioma or not. But if you have 40 or 50 patients who smoked Kent cigarettes, as much as a pack a day, from 1952 to 1956, and you show that there is no detectable crocidolite in the lungs of any of those individuals, Page 5082 then I would say the issue was laid to rest." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Dr. Longo, in the Roth case, did find crocidolite in the pleural tissue. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you considered that to be important and a basis upon which to rely that his mesothelioma was caused by his smoking Kent cigarettes. Correct? A. At that time, yes, sir. Q. Okay. And you indicated at that time that if that tissue was tumor tissue, then that would actually understate the amount of crocidolite because the tumor grows and it would be dilute the number, the dilution process would understate whatever asbestos you found. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you had pleural -- there was pleural tissue and tumor tissue for Mr. Argento. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Crocidolite is rarely, if ever, found in the background population. Is that correct? A. In our studies, that's correct. Q. Okay. You were asked some questions 72 (Pages 5079 - 5082) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5083 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about the Dodson and Hammar study? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have that article with you? A. I do. Q. This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 7. Do you have that? A. I think so. Q. Okay. It indicated that you actually looked at the same lung tissue that Drs. Dodson and Hammar looked at? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, they found different types of asbestos in the lung tissue. Correct? A. Yes. Q. They found amosite, tremolite, crocidolite, and anthophyllite and chrysotile. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And even if the only documented history of exposure to asbestos was Kent cigarettes, we know that this person was exposed to other types of asbestos because they're finding other types of asbestos here -- and we'll get to your analysis in a minute. Okay? We agree on that? A. Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And they noted that in the article. Correct? A. What are you talking about? Q. On the results, page 681. Second paragraph, "Transmission electron microscopic evaluation." A. Yes. Q. Okay. And they counted five asbestos fibers and they said that's equivalent to over 20,000 asbestos fibers per gram of wet tissue. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Third sentence. A. Yes. Q. Which would mean how many asbestos fibers in the total lung, approximately? A. You have to multiply that by roughly 60. Q. So you're talking about 1.2 million, around? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, you looked at the lung tissue and you found amosite. A. Yes. Q. Did you find any of the other types of asbestos that they found? A. Don't recall. Page 5085 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5084 Q. You don't recall? A. I did not find crocidolite, but I don't recall if I found any other fibers. Q. All you remember is you found amosite. Right? A. Yes. Q. They also looked at not only at lung tissue, they looked at lymph node tissue. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you mentioned earlier that the lymph nodes are one of the ways in which asbestos can get out of the lung. Right? A. Yes. Q. Did you look at that lymph node tissue? A. In this case? Q. No, in the case that we're talking about, P-7. A. I did not. Q. Okay. They found crocidolite -- most of the fibers that they found in the lymph nodes were crocidolite. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you did not look at that lymph node tissue. Correct? A. Correct. Page 5086 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You can't say whether or not there was crocidolite in the lymph node tissue, could you? A. Well, they found it. They reported it. Q. You believe them. Right? A. Sure. Q. Okay. And lymph nodes is one of the ways in which asbestos can get from the lung or the lymph tissue -- the lymphatics is one of the ways that asbestos can get from the lungs to the pleura. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And when asbestos gets -A. Wait. Q. From the lungs to the pleura. A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when asbestos gets from the lungs to the pleura via the lymphatics, that asbestos can still cause mesothelioma. Correct? A. If it's of the proper dimensions, yes. Q. The fact that it got there through the lymphatics doesn't mean that it's gone and not causing harm. Right? A. That's true. But the ones they found were in lymph nodes so they had already gotten to the lymph nodes. They're not going to get back to the 73 (Pages 5083 - 5086) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lungs or the pleura. Q. No, I understand that. What you find in the lymph nodes is out of the lung. Right? A. Yes. Q. It's been cleared out of the lung. Right? A. Yes. Q. So asbestos that gets cleared out of the lung via the lymphatics can end up in the lymph nodes. Right? A. Yes. Q. It can also end up in the pleura. Right? A. Yes. Q. And if it ends up in the pleura, it can contribute to the causation of mesothelioma. Right? A. Potentially, Yes. Q. Okay. You mentioned that it's your opinion that fibers shorter than 5 microns do not cause mesothelioma. Did I hear that correctly? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You're aware that there are authors who have published on this subject that take a different point of view than you do. Correct? A. Yes, I think all the ones I'm familiar Page 5089 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5088 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with I had criticized for their opinions in my 2015 review article on the topic. Q. Okay. Let's just take a look at a couple. (P-140, Marked for Identification.) (P-141, Marked for Identification.) Q. 140 is an article by Tomatis and the other is Boulanger. Right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And both of these, the Tomatis article, 140, was published in 2007; and the Boulanger article, 2014. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And both of these articles take a position contrary to yours that short asbestos fibers are not toxic or don't cause disease. Correct? A. It's been a while since I've seen these. Q. Take a look at Exhibit 140. Let's go to the conclusion on page 67. Last paragraph. "With regard to the former" -- and that's talking about somebody else's argument -- "several studies provide evidence that fibers of all lengths and diameters play a role in the induction of mesothelioma." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. All right. Take a look at the Boulanger article, 2014. "Quantification of short and long asbestos fibers to asbestos -- to assess asbestos exposure: A review of fiber size toxicity." Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Q. And if you look all the way at the end where they have their conclusion, it says, "In view of the experimental and epidemiological studies, the toxicity of SAF, short asbestos fibers, cannot be dismissed." Do you see that? A. And this is on page? Q. Page 14 of 18. A. Fourteen of 18. And where does it say this, now? Q. "Conclusions." A. Okay. Yes. Q. They note the debate in the scientific community. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And then it says two sentences later, "Based on literature data determining the role of fiber size and biological effects of asbestos fibers and our present knowledge on their mechanism of Page 5090 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 action, it appears that the measurement of airborne asbestos concentrations limited to fibers with a length greater than 5 microns leaves out other types of fibers that may also have adverse health effects." Did I read that correctly? A. It says, "health adverse effects." It's an error in the print, not in what you said. Q. Okay. And even Dr. Dodson, who we looked at his paper before with Dr. Hammar, he has published on short asbestos fibers causing mesothelioma. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, you said that you have published on the subject of short fiber -- short asbestos fibers. Right? A. Yes. Q. You also presented on that subject at groups. Correct? A. I have. Q. One of the groups that you've made that type of a presentation to is a group called the Defense Research Institute. Correct? A. It is. Q. It's known as the "Voice of the Defense Bar." Correct? 74 (Pages 5087 - 5090) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Roggli - cross Page 5091 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That's what they call themselves, yes. Q. And you have presented on the subject of short asbestos fibers at the DRI, the Defense Research Institute. Correct? A. Yes. Q. In fact, you actually submitted a manuscript to the people attending the DRI before you submitted it to publication for publishing. Is that right? A. I may have. I don't remember exactly the order. What actually happened was I prepared -- I was asked to give a topic at DRI. Because of an article I had read, I thought that the short fiber issue would be a good one. Once I wrote my manuscript for the DRI publication, I thought this is so good I need to publish it in the regular scientific literature, and then I submitted it to the Archives of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, which was actually accepted for publication prior to my presentation at DRI. Q. One of the types of things that you testify about short asbestos fibers are when you appear on behalf of brake companies or companies who made cars where brake mechanics might have been exposed to asbestos from changing brakes and Page 5093 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5092 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 clutches. Right? A. It is an issue there, yes. Q. And you have testified in the past long ago that -- not Longo, but long ago -- that asbestos from brakes are capable of causing mesothelioma. Do you recall that? A. I think there was one case in 1988, and I have not testified that way since. Q. Okay. You changed your mind about that. Right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And in any event, you have come together with lawyers representing brake companies nationally and helped them put together presentations for use in courtrooms. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, you mentioned earlier -- let's do this now. You mentioned earlier that you charge for your time. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And when you're actually away from home and giving testimony, you charge at $600 an hour with a cap of $3,600. Right? A. Yes. Q. Another way in which you charge is you charge a flat fee if somebody wants to just retain you and have you do no work at all. Right? A. Well, if I -- if they retain me, I do charge for a retention fee. Whether I do no work at all is up to the person who sends the retainer. Q. Right. But in other words, they can have you do absolutely no work and you still earn a retention fee. Correct? A. They send me a retainer fee; and if they don't pay me anything else, then that would be what happens. Q. And that retention fee is $700 a case. Right? A. Yes. Q. And overtime it averages about 500 a case? A. Yes. Q. And you've accepted about 13,000 retentions. Correct? A. Yes, a little more than that. Q. It's about $6.5 to $7 million just from the retention fees. Right? A. Yes. Q. In addition, when you do do work, you charge at $700 an hour. Correct? Page 5094 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And would it be fair to say, Dr. Roggli, that over the last several years you've averaged about $150,000 from your consulting work in asbestos litigation? A. Yes. THE COURT: May I see counsel at sidebar? (At sidebar.) THE COURT: How much further? MR. MAIMON: I do believe I will be done by 4:30, Judge. THE COURT: We're still bringing him back tomorrow? Is he available to come back tomorrow? MR. CEDILLO: He'll come back tomorrow, your Honor. MR. MAIMON: I don't mind breaking now. I don't mind either way. THE COURT: Yeah, becaause I need to speak to the jurors, one juror. MR. MAIMON: Sure. THE COURT: All right. Stay here. Get off of sidebar for the moment. (End of sidebar.) 75 (Pages 5091 - 5094) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5095 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: So members of the jury, we are going to conclude today; but before we do, just stay in your seats. So, Dr. Roggli -- I want to make sure I didn't say "Longo" -- we'll see you tomorrow morning. MR. MAIMON: That's my line. THE COURT: Yes, that's your line. Thank you very much. You can leave that there and we'll pick it up later. (The witness is excused.) THE COURT: So let's go back on sidebar. MR. CEDILLO: The witness is excused, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, I've excused the witness. Mr. Augello, can we see you, please. (At sidebar with Juror No. 8.) THE COURT: So, Mr. Augello, earlier you had indicated to me you wanted to speak to me. And you know I can't speak to you alone, that's why we're here with everyone else. JUROR: That's awesome. THE COURT: Okay. But we are on sidebar, so no one else in the courtroom can hear you. Page 5097 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5096 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JUROR NO. 8: Okay. It's a question -- well, the jury has a question. We want to know are we going to end this Wednesday? THE COURT: That's what I was going to talk to all of you about. Today, I just wanted to know, I'm bringing you here because I thought you had a specific personal issue. JUROR: No, It's for all of us. THE COURT: Okay. Well, thank you. JUROR: All right. I'll go back and sit down. THE COURT: Okay. Let's get off the sidebar. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: So members of the jury, your spokesperson has brought to my attention an issue that I was actually going to speak to you about today. So remember when we all convened back in June, I provided all of you a calendar and I told you that we expected this case to take no longer than the 24 days. And we had to take a number of days off due to my personal emergencies -- again, not the attorneys or the parties. Well, after -- I expected that we're going to complete the testimony of Dr. Roggli tomorrow. And then there is one more live witness who will expected hopefully to start tomorrow, but may go into Wednesday. So we are not going to finish by the time that I told you that we would. However, I have worked with the attorneys and we earlier had a discussion about when we are going to be able to get this case to you. Based upon what I see now, what the attorneys see now, we expect that -- we anticipate that we're going to get to closing statements on Thursday, the 11th. There is a possibility of Wednesday, but I think more likely Thursday. And then submit the case to you. And I realize it's not what I promised to you when we met in June. And, certainly, if that affects any one of you personally in some fashion, I have to consider that. And we would need to discuss that. Okay? So I do know and I promised you, Mr. Juror No. 1, Mr. Ciriello, that you were going to be going on vacation, and I thought you were going to be leaving on -JUROR: Next Saturday. THE COURT: Next Saturday. We are not Page 5098 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to be here next Friday, never mind next Saturday. Okay? JUROR NO. 1: But the week after I will be gone. THE COURT: Yes, I would never ever do that to you. I mean, you told us and you even came back and said my vacation. Do not worry about that. Okay? But if any of you have any particular concerns that you want to discuss with me, we can discuss them today or any time tomorrow. I don't want you to feel embarrassed about it or intimidated by it, because I did present you a schedule and there was just unforeseen issues that came up -- again, due to me, not the attorneys or the parties. So if any one of you want to stay after I release everyone or sometime tomorrow, we can talk about it. At any point in time please don't feel intimidated by the situation. Okay? So why don't we put your notebooks and pens back in the envelopes and tomorrow we'll reconvene at 9 a.m. If anyone wants to stay to discuss any matters with me today, again, with the attorneys present, you can stay. If there's a concern you have 76 (Pages 5095 - 5098) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5099 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with our schedule or if you want to stay and talk to me -- talk to us about it tomorrow, that's fine, too. Okay. So we have everything packed? People are smiling and you're laughing so you all know what's going on over there and I don't. And if you want to think about it, think about it, but if you want to stay, please stay. I'm going to open the door now. Just leave the notebooks on that chair and I'll make sure they get into chambers overnight. Okay? Thank you for your patience. And we'll see you tomorrow morning at 9 a.m., a member of my staff will meet you. (The jury leaves the courtroom except for Juror No. 6.) THE COURT: And then there was one. Why don't you join us at sidebar. (At sidebar.) THE COURT: All right. So for the record, this is Juror No. 6, Amanda Bowsky. And you have not been here in a while, in at least 24 days, and so no one in the back can hear you, okay, but I do need to create a record. Can you tell us what your concern is. JUROR NO. 6: On Thursday I have an Page 5101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 actuarial exam that I've been preparing for a very long time. And then I leave for vacation on Friday. THE COURT: Okay. So when you say Thursday -JUROR NO. 6: This Thursday. THE COURT: Thursday the 11th. And you leave for vacation on Friday the 12th. JUROR NO. 6: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. Where are you going on vacation? JUROR NO. 6: We're going to Vegas for the weekend and then we're going to California. THE COURT: Oh, good for you. And this is actuarial exam is on the 11th? JUROR: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. And what time is that at? JUROR: It's at 6:30 at night. THE COURT: Okay. And you've been studying throughout this trial? JUROR NO. 6: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. Could you excuse us for a moment. I need to discuss with counsel. (Juror leaves sidebar.) THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: Can we point out to her how much money she would save if she didn't go to Vegas? THE COURT: Well, I don't know. She might have a lucky streak. MR. DUNST: That's why she's taking the actuarial exam. MR. MAIMON: What time did she say the test was? MR. CEDILLO: 6:30. MR. MAIMON: At night. THE COURT: She has been studying for it. The question is if we do summations -- it doesn't sound like we're doing summations on Wednesday. It's more likely on Thursday. MR. CEDILLO: Right. And they would be deliberating on Friday. THE COURT: On Friday. MS. LONG: If we can finish half the day on Wednesday -THE COURT: Oh, my, you're so optimistic. MR. CEDILLO: She's not doing cross. THE COURT: Oh, just laugh. MR. MAIMON: Yes. Page 5102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Okay. MR. MAIMON: Says that I laugh. What I was going to suggest, Judge, I mean, obviously she told us about the vacation ahead of time. And I would make the same commitment to her that you made to Juror No. 1 is that we won't make you lose your vacation. I wouldn't dismiss her yet. I don't see a reason to. THE COURT: Anything can happen. Right? MR. MAIMON: Anything could happen. And I mean, she's put in this much time to it. THE COURT: All right. MR. MAIMON: I mean, if it turns out that she's -- I mean, we have nine. THE COURT: I have a feeling that we have one more that's going to come up that didn't want to come up today because they were sharing glances back and forth. And that is Juror No. 2, Miss Lockhart, so we may be talking to her. All right. Is there any objection to my not releasing her now? MR. DUNST: I think we should leave it up to her, because I think that we know -- we know that we're not going to get done until at least Thursday. So theoretically she's going to be here. 77 (Pages 5099 - 5102) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 She is not going to be able to deliberate no matter what happens. And, plus, you know, I mean, if she could deliberate, then it would be a different story; but if she can't deliberate, then I would give her the choice because she may want to spend the rest of the day Thursday since she's not going to deliberate in a case she's been here for two months already spending more time studying for her actuarial exam. THE COURT: Okay. MR. MAIMON: That's reasonable. MR. DUNST: That would be my -THE COURT: Any objection? MR. CEDILLO: Not a strong objection, your Honor. My instinct was to not do it yet. Let's see what happens. Tomorrow is only Tuesday. We could pull the trigger, you know, tomorrow or Wednesday. For now keep her. She may -- she may make the call closer in time to just stay. MR. DUNST: I agree. MR. CEDILLO: As opposed to release her now. It may come down to her call anyway. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: But if you tell her okay, now you can stay, she may find that better than Vegas. Let's give her the chance. Page 5105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: All right. Miss Bowsky, could you join us again. (Juror returns to sidebar.) THE COURT: Tell me, where is your actuarial test being given? JUROR: Clark, New Jersey. THE COURT: Okay. And it starts at 6:30 p.m.? JUROR: Yes. THE COURT: I want you to know we appreciate all the time that you've invested in this trial because it has been a significant investment. I assure you I will do nothing to interfere with your vacation or your test; but if it's okay with you, because we just never know what may happen. Perhaps the testimony coming in will go quicker than I anticipate right now because these are all projections, would you mind staying with us a little bit longer? Again, realizing I'm not going to do anything to impact your taking that test and getting out of here in enough time to take that test and your vacation. Is that okay with you? JUROR NO. 6: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. You're comfortable with that for now? JUROR NO. 6: Yes. THE COURT: All right. We'll see you tomorrow morning. Thank you. Let me let you out. (End of sidebar.) THE COURT: All right. We're off of sidebar and back live. Were we going to work on that issue now about reading in and there was going to be an objection? Something with regard to -MR. MAIMON: Mr. Orcutt. THE COURT: Did we finish the Orcutt testimony? MR. CEDILLO: No, your Honor. MR. MAIMON: We have cross. We finished direct. MR. CEDILLO: It's about halfway done. THE COURT: Okay. Let me get my Orcutt binder. I will be right back. MR. MAIMON: You ruled completely, Judge. MR. BERGER: We misunderstood. We thought you meant how much time was left on the Orcutt video we started already. THE COURT: No. MR. BERGER: I misunderstand your Page 5106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. THE COURT: I apologize. We finished page and line designations of Orcutt. MR. CEDILLO: No, your Honor. May I explain? THE COURT: Yes, because I think Mr. Berger is telling me something else. MR. CEDILLO: There is another segment of Mr. Orcutt from the Quirin case, but we've worked with this, the deposition that we took here. The deposition that we took here centered on the Longo and Millette studies and photographs, and so forth that are not in play. So we'd like some very short passages from Mr. Orcutt where he addressed the Longo pictures that are part of his 1995 report. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: We have exchanged those with counsel. When we finished the playing of the deposition, because I was concerned about scope issues, and so forth, I said, "Heads up, there's another segment of Mr. Orcutt that I want read as part of my direct." And then we exchanged that portion with counsel. They have not agreed and they have 78 (Pages 5103 - 5106) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 objections to it. It's very short, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. So I need to see that. Okay. MS. LONG: We have an objection to the entire transcript, your Honor, and I would just like to give you some background on this issue. THE COURT: Sure. MS. LONG: In early May, Mr. Berger called me and said, "We want to present Mr. Orcutt by his prior testimony in the Quirin case." And he sent me the Quirin deposition. And he said, "If you don't agree to that, then we want to do a trial preservation deposition down in North Carolina." I read the Quirin transcript and I replied to Mr. Berger and I told him, "We don't agree to that. We want to do the trial preservation." The week before trial, I went down to North Carolina and took a discovery dep, and then we did the trial preservation of Mr. Orcutt. And now that we've shown his whole transcript, they could have asked him what they want to ask him here at that video deposition where I would have had an opportunity to cross-examine him on the matter. They did not do that. They chose to ask about certain photos and not the published articles. That was Page 5109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 their choice. They chose to do a trial preservation instead of bringing Mr. Orcutt up here. There was no indication in the discovery deposition or the video deposition that he's not able to travel to New York from North Carolina. You saw on the video. He's a healthy man. He's in his 80s, but he can come here. They haven't given any proffer that he's unavailable to come here. Again, before trial, I made the trip to North Carolina, took the time, prepared to do a cross-examination. Did all that. And so this would be testimony that we haven't had the opportunity to cross-examine on, that they chose how to -- Mr. Cedillo chose how to conduct his direct examination. And as he's pointed out many times throughout this trial, he knows these cases, he's tried these cases before. He certainly could have asked about the Longo article in that trial preservation testimony when I had the opportunity to cross-examine on the matter. And this is not just an unavailable witness that they're now trying to present via prior testimony. When they made that offer prior to the trial, we said we don't agree to that. And now in the middle of trial they're trying to do something that we could have done before trial. So we have an objection to using any of this witness' transcript. This isn't the way it's done, your Honor. You put a witness on once and that's your shot. You don't get to go, oh, I don't like his testimony so now I want to put in his prior depositions where the other party had no opportunity to cross-examine. And, again, not an unavailable witness. He was willing to come and do a deposition for them. He was willing to come and do trial testimony for them. As we saw in the video, he's very thankful and loyal to Lorillard. I'm sure he would if they asked make the trip for them. And regardless of whether he would or not, they had their shot. And if Mr. Cedillo didn't ask the questions he wanted to ask, that was a decision he made. I would have conducted the cross different if it was in the middle of trial, too, but we live with what we did, what we agreed to before trial. And we didn't give them a hard time before trial about him being available or unavailable. We did them the courtesy of going down to North Carolina and doing the dep. And now they're trying to present the testimony that we wouldn't have agreed to anyway. So that's our objection MR. CEDILLO: Okay. And you heard Page 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 everything about five different times, your Honor, the same objection over and over again. It doesn't change the fact -THE COURT: It doesn't give it more weight. Okay. Let's just get to the heart of it. MR. CEDILLO: It doesn't change that under the rules we can bring him in if it is someone that was examined by people who had the opportunity and the same level of interest. Secondly, what counsel is not telling you is that they made the strategic decision not to use the Millette and the Longo 2010 and 2012 materials at the trial. That was always in the case. THE COURT: You mean the unpublished studies? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, the studies that they did for litigation and the photographs. And quite frankly, your Honor, that has been the focus -because I do know these cases. That has been the focus that they're going on because they understand the -- the junk science that the Cancer Research amounts to. He redid it. He resaid it and came up with all these pictures. And that was what was in play at the time that we took the deposition. The availability or not availability, 79 (Pages 5107 - 5110) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your Honor, is very reciprocal. Mrs. Rose Argento, they chose to bring her by deposition. She lives around here somewhere, and I didn't ask them for any showing of unavailability. I extended them the courtesy that they want to bring her by deposition, they don't want to bring her live. Fine. I didn't give them a hard time with it at all. And they were asked -- Mr. Orcutt was asked by Ms. Long, the case is going to be tried in New Jersey, why can't you make it to trial. He said, "Age and recovering from surgery." And she said, "Oh, and I hope you're recovering well." So the unavailability rationale was given by the witness. And, yes, we're very grateful that counsel extended us that courtesy, just as we were extending them the courtesy as well for witnesses that wouldn't have to travel as far. So I think that under the rule we're allowed to do it, your Honor. I'll -- I'll also point out to the Court that when they wanted to do some numbers, calculations that were within the range of what Dr. Longo had done in the '95 article, because they were Page 5113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 within the range even though they weren't part of the article, the Court allowed it. These are the photographs that are Dr. Longo used. Certainly, I mean, if within the range is a criterion, we certainly fit within the range. And, your Honor, we're talking about six pages of Q and A from the Quirin deposition that go through a couple of the photographs that are used by Longo in the published article. So we're not talking about extending -THE COURT: You said in the published article? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. We're not talking about, you know, extending this with a whole other transcript and go over anything in a way of rehashing. MS. LONG: Well, your Honor, that testimony about recovering from surgery was taken two months ago, so if he's -- I don't think that makes the unavailability proffer is all I'm saying. THE COURT: How old is he? MS. LONG: He's in his 80s. MR. BERGER: 85 or 86. MS. LONG: That's why we went down and took the dep. I didn't object to going. I didn't say, no, bring him to New Jersey. THE COURT: What kind of surgery did he have? MR. BERGER: I don't think he ever told us. MR. CEDILLO: I think it was the private kind of -THE COURT: Okay. Let's keep it that way. MS. LONG: None of this changes the fact that Mr. Cedillo had a chance to do his direct. He chose not to ask about the Longo article. And now -- and robbing me now by putting it in via this deposition of the chance to cross-examine on it. But he made a strategic decision to do a video dep before trial. He made a strategic decision about which studies to question about. They were the parties who moved to exclude the unpublished studies, all of them. We prevailed on the published Longo study, but they moved to exclude all of the studies. That wasn't us, your Honor. We didn't fight on the unpublished studies. We didn't oppose a motion on the unpublished studies. But that was their motion, not ours. So to say we tried to keep them out because we know the Cancer Research article is junk Page 5114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 science is not an appropriate representation of the record. What it boils down to is you don't put a witness on twice, your Honor, and that's essentially what they're trying to do. THE COURT: How is that, Dr. Reinert, you wanted him in your case-in-chief. We sat through -MS. LONG: But that's one party putting him on once and then the other party putting him on second. And we needed to put him on in our case. We chose to do it by prior video. If they want to bring him live to say whatever he's going to say that wasn't in the video, that's one thing, but this is the same party calling the same witness twice, and the second time via prior transcript where we haven't had the opportunity to cross-examine. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, he hasn't even gone on once. He's gone on half. And I brought it up at the end of the week when we were last here because I want him to be part of the once. And, your Honor, if -- if the thrust of the attack is that Cedillo messed up and should have done something, then that's my fault and I should be held accountable for it, but you shouldn't hold my 80 (Pages 5111 - 5114) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 client accountable for something. The issue of the challenge to the Millette and Longo studies because it's junk science and it was an expert challenge, and what they were doing was driven by litigation and we had good grounds to ask the Court to consider it. And counsel withdrew that and said, no, we're not going to use him at all so you never had to rule. THE COURT: Okay. So, again, and I realize I may have asked this more than once. This testimony that you're seeking to have played to the jury is with regard to pictures that were in the published study. Is that correct? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. MS. LONG: I don't believe they're in the article, themselves, your Honor. MR. BERGER: They are from Dr. Longo's study that was the subject -- the subject of the published article. They are photographs of the filter tips and the packs. THE COURT: How do we know that? Is that an issue, whether or not they were a part -MR. BERGER: It's not. MS. LONG: It hasn't been proven to us, your Honor. Page 5117 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right. We accept it. MR. MAIMON: We've accepted that representation, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: And one of the pictures is in the -- in the published article, your Honor. There is a picture in there. But there are others. MR. BERGER: Yeah. And in addition to the filter tip pictured in the article, we have -- he has pictures of the packages that the cigarettes he tested came out of, as well as from the opened pack you see the tips of the filters. THE COURT: Okay. MR. BERGER: From the published -- the cigarettes that were involved in the published study. THE COURT: Okay. You have indicated that one was included in the published study. MR. CEDILLO: Yeah, that I'm certain of. THE COURT: Okay. Are the other ones referenced in the published study or just any old picture? MR. BERGER: Yes. No, the published study -- if you remember, in the article he says the cigarettes that I've tested came from two packs, a 1952 pack with the Vermont tax stamp and a 1955 pack with a Pennsylvania tax stamp. And that's what these pictures are that Mr. Orcutt is talking about, that's where they come from. MR. CEDILLO: They are identified in words in the article. MR. MAIMON: We don't dispute, your Honor, Dr. Longo did a study that eventually was published. We do not dispute. We've accepted the representation of counsel that the photographs that Mr. Orcutt was asked about in the other deposition, not the de bene esse for this case -- were from the initial study that Dr. Longo did which resulted in the published study. We don't dispute that. Our complaint is that we've been denied cross-examination of it. THE COURT: So motion to bar the unpublished studies of Dr. Longo came from the defendants. MR. MAIMON: Yeah, those are the pictures that Mr. Cedillo showed Mr. Orcutt in his de bene esse testimony. MR. CEDILLO: Because there was an attempt in the discovery not only were they the pictures of Dr. Longo published -- not published but prepared for litigation, but also Dr. Millette who Page 5118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 also used Dr. Longo and had a separate set of tests. And those were the subject of motions that were part of expert challenges, moving to exclude. You never ruled on that because they withdrew it and said we're not going to go there. THE COURT: But that was after the deposition. MR. CEDILLO: That happened while we were here. THE COURT: That happened after the deposition took place. MR. CEDILLO: Yes. MR. BERGER: At the time of the deposition, the state of the record was the plaintiffs had their two experts, Dr. Moline and Dr. Cummings, both had the unpublished 2010 Millette study and the unpublished 2012 Longo study in their reliance materials. They were at issue in the case at the time the de bene esse was done. MS. LONG: And they had the published article in their reliance materials. They were -THE COURT: No question. So you went down and you took a discovery dep first. Right? MS. LONG: Yes. MR. MAIMON: And during that time frame, 81 (Pages 5115 - 5118) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 did anybody get into these issues of the photographs? MS. LONG: Not of the Longo published article. They did get into the issue of the unpublished. MR. CEDILLO: Not here in the discovery deposition, your Honor. That was all her. I didn't ask questions in the discovery deposition. MS. LONG: Right. I asked about it because I read his prior transcripts where he talked about the same photo. I probed it in the discovery dep. And then on direct, in the video in the trial transcript, Mr. Cedillo spent a lot of time on the pictures. But he didn't do the Longo published article, so I didn't ask about that. MR. CEDILLO: Obviously because -(A discussion off the record.) THE COURT: So could I ask why his de bene esse, which he was ill, age, recovering from surgery, why you didn't ask about these then? MR. CEDILLO: Because, your Honor, that was -- that was my judgment call. The emphasis was on the 2010 and 2012 photographs. They were studies that were designed to address all the infirmities that we had challenged Dr. Longo directly on as recently as the Couscouris case. And the entire Page 5121 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 focus in the last two trials in this case have been on this new work that Dr. Millette did on Longo materials and that Dr. Longo himself redid to try to address it. That was -- that was where the emphasis has always been in these cases. MS. LONG: Your Honor, those were not our trials and they were not Dr. Cummings or Dr. Moline, so there's no reason they would have thought that Dr. Cummings and Dr. Moline would put any emphasis on those articles that they didn't put on the published article. So regardless of what Mr. Cedillo's prior experience is, that has nothing to do with this case because our experts did not at all focus on those articles more than they did the published article. MR. CEDILLO: Well, your Honor, their experts focus on what they strategically make decisions that they don't have to address because they're going to go in another direction. THE COURT: All right. I just want an opportunity to look at this real quickly. We'll go off the record. (A discussion is held off the record.) THE COURT: Go back on the record. MR. MAIMON: The only thing I would add, your Honor, is that this testimony would be cumulative. In the Block videotape that they've offered, they showed Mr. Block these exact photos that they now want Mr. Orcutt to testify about and asked him do those represent what Kent cigarette would -- would have looked like. And your Honor ruled about the admissibility of that testimony. Albeit, we weren't at those depositions, but under the rules your Honor allows -- you know, that unavailability, Mr. Block is deceased, and we're stuck with that cross-examination. So they do have these photographs being questioned and somebody, unfortunately, did a cross-examination, maybe not to our liking, but Mr. Block was produced for trial testimony -- Mr. Orcutt was produced for trial testimony. THE COURT: Remind me again -- anything further? MR. MAIMON: No. And so it would even -- even assuming they had done it, it would have been cumulative of what somebody else said the same thing. And now to deny the cross-examination on somebody they already have the testimony on from somebody else we believe even compounds the Page 5122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prejudice. THE COURT: Remind me again, Mr. Orcutt is who in connection with -MR. MAIMON: Sales. MR. CEDILLO: He was a salesman that would go and rotate the stock and was in charge of making sure that what was on the shelf was sellable. And if it was damaged he would remove them and send them back. And I think there's either already or there's going to be testimony that they would be sent back because the tag -- the tax tag had value, and they take them back and be able to take them off and get a refund for it. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: So that he was involved in making sure that the product was high quality and sellable. And he says that the things that Dr. Longo was working with is not anything approximating what the consumer would be selling. And that's a very major point in our criticism of Dr. Longo's work. MS. LONG: If it's such a key point, I don't know why he didn't they bring it out in the direct exam. And, also, they did get out the testimony from Mr. Orcutt about how it was important to bring 82 (Pages 5119 - 5122) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the cigarettes back, and all the stuff about the freshness, and the odors, and the heat, and the sun and the damp. That all came in and he can argue about that in closing so he did have Mr. Orcutt on that subject. And, again, if it's such a key part of their case, why didn't they do it so we could cross-examine on it? MR. CEDILLO: And we did do it on the photographs of the subsequent Longo and Millette studies that were prepared for litigation. We did go into all these topics. We also did it in the Quirin case on the Longo. Did not do it in the deposition of Mr. Orcutt for here as it relates to Longo. THE COURT: I understand. MR. CEDILLO: And that's why I want to use the Quirin. THE COURT: And tell me, with regard to Mr. Block, so Mr. Block is already going through these photographs in his testimony which the jury will see? MR. BERGER: Yes. THE COURT: There's a yes? MR. CEDILLO: Yes, your Honor. MR. BERGER: Yes. Page 5125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: And Mr. Block's role with Lorillard? MR. CEDILLO: He was the guy that made the machine. MR. BERGER: The chief engineer. THE COURT: That's right. So you're getting that testimony in from your chief engineer who, as I recall the testimony was there, and they did the product runs and whatever. So now he was asked to look at the pictures that were either part of or referred in the Longo published studies and give testimony with regard to that. MR. CEDILLO: That's correct, your Honor. THE COURT: And he's unavailable. MR. CEDILLO: He's dead. THE COURT: And the plaintiffs have accepted that or they placed their objections on the record. So why do you need this in where, you know, I'm really having difficulty struggling with you had the opportunity to ask him, and here are the plaintiffs who would have cross-examined on them, and so now we're going to have additional testimony with regard to photographs that we already have in by a witness who is unavailable who was there and actually produced or was the engineer behind the production of the machine that created the filters and would know best, you know, what they looked like. And now this testimony of a salesperson that you could have. I mean, the question does not allowing this testimony in prejudice to your client to the point that it overrides the prejudice to the plaintiff who would have been prepared to cross-examine this witness who may not be able to travel here. And I accept an 86-year-old had surgery, might take more than two months to recover, Ms. Long. MS. LONG: He looks good, your Honor. THE COURT: But I mean, if this is that important to you, why can't we produce him by video, like live? MR. CEDILLO: Well, your Honor, you've heard all my argument. It's certainly within the range of what was -- everybody was on notice of. There isn't anything -- and if you look at the six pages, there isn't anything that they didn't do with the Millette or Longo later pictures. THE COURT: Except those are unpublished studies and that's out of this case. Page 5126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor -THE COURT: Unless they were the same pictures that they looked at and there was testimony with regard to that that, you know, may have been recycled in the unpublished data. MR. CEDILLO: Your Honor, the whole unpublished criteria that we've been getting whipsawed with. You're considering unpublished. Work that he did in connection with the '95 test that he chose not to publish because it showed that he got 1/20th of the results when he did it with the syringe. That is unpublished, and so it's not fair game? That is exactly why witnesses like Dr. Moline and Dr. Cummings, if I had been able to confront them with that, they would have said, yeah, if it's not reproducible, you call it into question. I know exactly what Dr. Roggli would say about that. That's one of the main reasons he changed his mind when he found out that Dr. Longo had the information and chose not to publish it when it was so diametrically opposed to the results that he did chose to publish. He's got very strong views on that for that reason. And the reason or the rationale is that it isn't published? Yeah, he chose not to publish it because it showed what a piece of junk his work was. 83 (Pages 5123 - 5126) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: I don't -- I don't want to take up time relitigating anew several times over this motion that I've already decided. What I'm asking you is were any of the pictures that he testified to in relation to the unpublished studies, were they the same pictures that we're talking about here? MR. CEDILLO: I do not believe so, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Can you make -MR. CEDILLO: They were from -- they were from -THE COURT: Okay. MR. CEDILLO: -- other packs. THE COURT: I accept that you did not ask him. Is there any way that you can make him available to get this last piece of testimony in live with the pictures obviously in his hands in North Carolina so that counsel can cross-examine him? MR. CEDILLO: I don't know the answer to that, your Honor. THE COURT: Why don't you look into that. MR. CEDILLO: Fine. I'll look into that. Given the time constraints that we're all Page 5129 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 under, understandably under, I don't know that I 1 could pull that off this week. I don't know where he 2 is. I don't know how he's doing. 3 THE COURT: Well, and you don't know 4 unless you try. And in the meantime I'll reserve on 5 that and I'll look at this testimony. 6 Okay? 7 MR. CEDILLO: All right. 8 THE COURT: So why don't we pick up from 9 here tomorrow. We'll stay and do the charges 10 tomorrow. If you're able to get a response this 11 evening, you'll let us know; otherwise we'll start 12 with the charges at 8:30 tomorrow morning. 13 MR. MAIMON: Okay. 14 THE COURT: There's nothing else I have 15 to do? 16 MR. MAIMON: Just charges. 17 MR. CEDILLO: The only other issue, your 18 Honor, we have the exhibits that we want to admit 19 into evidence. And the issue was whether we're going 20 to get to publish them or not. But we have never 21 heard from counsel as to what objections they have. 22 MR. MAIMON: We'll let them know tonight 23 what our objections are. 24 THE COURT: We're talking about the 25 exhibits previously identified but you have not sought admission. All right. You are trying to get agreement on all the exhibits, like everybody? MR. MAIMON: Yes, your Honor. MR. CEDILLO: There's others we haven't even offered, yet, Judge, for example, the ones under the ancient document exception. But we've provided them to counsel. And if I hear counsel correctly, they may or may not have objection but they do have objection about taking time to publish them is what I heard. If we can at least hear from them as to whether they're objecting to the admission or not, then we know whether you've got work to do with us or not. THE COURT: Do you have an understanding of that or do you need clarification? MR. MAIMON: We just have to know which exhibits we agree to admission and which ones we object to. THE COURT: But I think it went beyond that. You have other documents that have not yet been identified? MR. CEDILLO: No, in open court here. We've given them everything to consider. The question I'm talking about is what Mr. Maimon raised Page 5130 earlier today, that if they agree or if they have no objection to admit them over their objection, he doesn't want us taking time to publish them to the jury without a sponsoring witness, which I believe I'm entitled to do at least under the ancient document exception. And so that is something that you would have to take up. THE COURT: Okay. No problem. I'll see everyone at 8:30 tomorrow morning. MR. DUNST: Your Honor, there's one other thing. We had moved WCD-17, 18 and 19, which were the 309. And you said we would hold off because Mr. Maimon said there were certain things within that. THE COURT: Right. MR. DUNST: Well, I have not heard what's in there. MR. MAIMON: I have them with me. I can go over them with Mr. Dunst. THE COURT: Why don't you do that. MR. MAIMON: I will. THE COURT: Okay, great. All right. So you're going to check with -MR. CEDILLO: Mr. Orcutt. 84 (Pages 5127 - 5130) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Colloquy Page 5131 1 THE COURT: Yes. I'll see everyone 8:30 2 tomorrow morning. Thank you. 3 (The trial adjourned at 4:52 p.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 5132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 CERTIFICATION I, LINDA M. JORRITSMA, a Certified Court Reporter of the State of New Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the within proceeding as reported by me stenographically at the place and on the date hereinbefore set forth. <%Signature%> LINDA M. JORRITSMA, C.C.R. License No. XI00995 12 13 14 Dated: August 8, 2016 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 (Pages 5131 - 5132) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [& - 1990s] Page 1 & & 4799:8,13,16,17 4799:20 4800:3,7 4802:21,23,25 4803:3 4838:4,7,10 4838:13,22 4889:10 4982:23 0 001 5071:4 006 4926:12 01 5026:4 08108 4799:19 08903 4800:5 1 1 4809:2,4 4994:22 5002:8 5026:1,2,4,5 5026:5,9,9 5029:6 5030:11 5097:21 5098:3 5102:6 1,300 4859:8 1,445 4879:1,5 4880:2 4903:6 4937:4,5,8,18 4938:4 4949:5,20 4953:24 4961:22 4987:24 5002:3 1.2 5084:17 1/20th 5046:22 5126:11 10 4807:11 4824:19 4824:24 4825:3 4829:17 4868:15 4893:22 4908:5 4915:20,21 4920:18 4932:12 5026:22 5052:1 5055:1 5056:16 5072:20 100 4872:17 4876:15 4893:25 4908:5 4914:1 4915:5,13 5074:2 10022 4799:5 107 4825:14,17,20 108 4826:5 109 4825:21 4827:3 109-15 4825:23 4829:14 10:30 4886:22 11 4801:9 4868:18 4926:24 4927:1,2 4927:18 4939:15 4940:6 4951:23 110 4829:17 115 4829:24 116 4821:17 4829:24,25 117 4832:24 11th 5097:12 5100:6 5100:14 12 4801:9 4804:24 4807:2 4850:14 4851:10,13,18 4852:7 4854:1 4879:23 4937:21,23 4949:6,10 4950:15 4954:4,5,11 4955:1 5016:5 120 4833:5,13 120-19 4833:14 121 4833:6 121-24 4833:14 127 5075:9 12:30 4971:9 12th 5100:7 13 4928:8 13,000 5093:18 130 4801:10 4981:8 4981:10,12 131 4801:10 4984:2 4984:3 132 4801:11 5000:16,18 5074:10 133 4801:11 5011:9 5011:11 134 4801:12 5019:10,12 135 4801:12 5024:23,24 136 4801:13 5029:14,16 137 4801:13 5033:7 5033:8,8 138 4801:14 5075:2 5075:3 139 4801:14 5080:24 14 4824:20 4825:1,3 4883:11 4938:10 5019:23 5089:14 140 4801:15 5088:5 5088:7,11,18 141 4801:15 4989:11 5001:6 5088:6 15 4825:2,5 4853:5 4886:25 4928:4 4948:1,1,10,22 4957:23 4962:24 4985:8 5000:3 5019:21 5055:1 5058:22 150,000 5094:4 153 5032:5 16 4824:25 4825:5 4825:19,20 4883:12 4952:1 17 5130:11 18 4818:12 4819:14 5089:14,15 5130:11 18.7 5071:18 5072:4 5072:16 19 4803:21 4816:2 4817:19 4833:5 4871:17,25 4872:5 5065:23 5130:11 191 5012:4 1950 4953:4 1950s 4830:4 4928:1 4946:6 4995:3 1952 4827:23 4892:23 4995:10 5081:23 5116:25 1953 5051:10 1955 5022:6 5116:25 1956 4805:24 4892:23 4920:22 4953:7 4995:10 5009:24 5051:10 5081:24 1957 4806:13 1958 4806:13 4826:6,9 4828:18 1960 4806:13 4826:14 1964 4826:15 1968 4857:5 1970 4953:4 5001:3 5001:12 5005:21 5022:6 1970s 4941:25 4950:21 5011:6 1972 4857:5 4939:12 5006:7,10 5007:6 5078:15 1973 4840:2,21 4944:20 1976 4841:2,14 4860:1 4865:15 5011:16 5012:21,24 1979 4865:13 1980 4841:14 4865:13,16 4876:20 1980s 4950:21 5006:2,16,25 5007:5,7 5015:2 1981 4862:18 4888:1 4902:12 1985 4888:5 5001:3 5005:22 1987 4866:3 1988 5092:7 1990 4862:20,23 4966:12 1990s 4900:7 4901:1 4904:13 4939:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [1990s - 52] Page 2 4946:7,9 1992 4866:11 4901:19 4902:1,15 1993 4877:15 4937:14 1994 5029:25 1995 4851:2 4891:2 4909:16 4925:24 4926:17 4959:17 5062:5 5065:16 5106:16 1996 4867:12 4894:12 4920:22 5019:14 5021:6,13 5042:3 5059:21 5065:23 5080:19 1997 4867:13 4871:17 4873:3 4889:25 4890:2 4894:11 4895:11 4899:19 4907:2 4925:10 4986:16,22 4986:25 5042:3 5044:11 5059:21 1998 4805:1,24 4806:14,19 4807:6 4810:23 1:30 4973:24 2 2 4808:18,20 4809:2 4809:7,10 4948:17 4948:18 4951:17 4954:16 4955:8,13 4981:14 4994:23 5012:4 5021:22 5030:11 5102:18 2,600 4859:6 20 4816:2 4881:14 4914:1 4915:9,20 4915:22 4920:19 4921:1 5068:4 20,000 5084:9 200 4865:3 4876:15 2000 4863:3 4878:21 2000s 4901:2 2001 4878:22 4907:3 4908:1 4912:11 4922:15 4923:14 2002 4878:23,24 4903:5 4938:1,10 5024:21 5031:15 2004 4866:13 2006 4876:20 4963:2 2007 4901:22 5088:11 2008 4912:9 4913:6 4926:10,19 4927:5 4929:13,16 2009 4903:11 4925:23 2010 5110:12 5118:16 5119:22 2012 4951:23 5110:12 5118:17 5119:22 2013 4979:6 4981:6 4981:14 4982:4 5021:22 2014 4866:14 4873:7,12 5088:12 5089:2 2015 5075:4 5088:1 2016 4798:21 4802:4 5132:14 21 4822:11 5075:4 210-822-6666 4799:11 212-605-6200 4799:5 22 4819:15,18,24,25 4822:11,13 5075:11 2234 5071:5 2235 5070:15 5071:11 2345 4799:14 24 4833:6 4901:20 4930:15,18,24 5096:22 5099:22 249 5081:3,4 25 4821:8 4825:19 4825:20 4939:21 26 4928:23 268 4937:17 27 4979:6 4981:6 4982:3 27th 4990:21 29 4817:17,19 3 3 4808:18,20 4809:2 4809:10 4817:22 4981:15,17,19,20 5021:22,23,24 5026:22 5032:3 5059:13 3,600 4930:15,17 5092:23 30 4881:14 4914:1 4921:4 4956:8 4976:22 5067:13,22 5068:6,10,12 3000 5073:17 309 5130:12 30th 5019:14 32 4817:22 35 4876:16 36 4930:15,20 360 4799:18 397 5000:24 5005:25 398 5000:24 5006:1 399 5016:4 3rd 4990:23 4991:2 4 4 4809:2,7,11 4811:8 4823:18 5072:20 4,000 4876:8,25 40 4800:4 4808:9 4876:2,6 4906:23 4909:14,16 4918:4 4920:22 4921:4 4976:22 5081:22 41 4803:20 43 5032:3 44-6 4803:22 44-7 4804:24 46-18 4807:16 48-7 4807:17 480 4800:5 4839 4801:4 4926 4801:9 4937 4801:9 4974 4801:4 4981 4801:10 4984 4801:10 4:30 5094:12 4:52 5131:3 5 5 4809:3,13 4913:21 4914:5 4932:11,18 4943:4 5072:2,4,18 5072:21 5075:18 5087:19 5090:3 50 4932:17 5081:22 500 4799:9 4854:5 4915:23 5055:24 5056:11 5057:6 5093:15 5000 4801:11 5011 4801:11 5019 4801:12 5024 4801:12 5029 4801:13 5033 4801:13 5075 4801:14 5080 4801:14 5088 4801:15,15 50s 4944:15 52 4819:14,17,23 4826:7,10 4896:3 4898:17 4968:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [53-16 - action] Page 3 53-16 4819:19 5418-12 4798:2 4802:8 4837:16 55 4808:18 56 4798:19 4811:8 4826:8,10 4896:3 4898:17 4968:15 56-2 4809:16,18 57 4810:2 4811:16 58-6 4809:17,18 6 6 4868:4 4926:7 5035:1 5043:11 5099:15,20,25 5100:5,8,11,21 5104:23 5105:1 6.5 5093:21 60 4819:7,9 4832:24 4894:13 5084:16 60-18 4812:15,17 600 4854:6 4930:14 4930:16,20 5092:22 61 4819:10 4821:8 61-11 4812:15 61-25 4820:4 62 4820:21 4894:14 62-25 4820:8 64108-2663 4799:15 65 4821:21 4822:9 4822:10 4893:25 4915:5 5074:12 67 4823:18 5088:19 681 5084:4 683 4965:24 69 4824:14 6:30 5100:18 5101:10 5104:8 7 7 4807:1 4817:22 4835:12 4868:7 4963:3,11 4966:15 5030:4 5032:4 5052:1 5056:10,13 5083:5 5085:17 5093:21 700 5056:6 5093:12 5093:25 70s 4941:25 72 5007:1 732-545-4717 4800:6 74 4824:16,17 755 4799:10 76 4824:18 4841:13 78 4955:7 78212-3135 4799:10 8 8 4798:21 4802:4 4809:22 4811:8,8 4829:17 4835:11 4868:8 5032:4 5095:17 5096:1 5132:14 80 4988:11 800 4799:4 5056:7 5056:11,14 80s 4888:7 5011:6 5108:6 5112:22 81.3 5072:12 817 5031:20,23,24 82 4888:3 83 4888:3 85 4988:12 5112:23 86 4880:19 5112:23 5125:11 88 4954:8 8:37 4798:21 9 9 4807:10 4820:19 4820:21,23 4822:3 4823:18 4868:10 5055:1 5098:22 5099:12 90 4879:22 4949:12 4954:18 90s 4873:16 4878:20 4890:16 4891:20 4893:7,17 4894:7 4894:25 4911:9,18 4914:12 4919:15 4923:4 925 4835:3,11 928 4835:12 94 4877:19 95 4811:5,10 4854:16 5111:25 5126:9 99 4969:21,22 99.95 5074:22,24 5075:14 99.95. 5074:25 a a.m. 4798:21 5098:22 5099:12 abatement 5008:15 5009:8 abatements 5008:18 5008:22 abdomen 4986:7 abide 4830:5 ability 4861:2 4908:3 5045:1 5054:1 5066:2 5076:17 able 4808:6 4850:5 4860:22 4878:14 4901:15 4902:7 4932:9 4979:24 4991:15,18 4993:4 5009:2 5028:2 5036:13 5038:6 5045:22 5046:1,5 5071:25 5097:8 5103:1 5108:4 5122:12 5125:10 5126:14 5128:11 abnormal 4880:20 absence 4830:18,18 absolutely 4960:15 5043:20,23 5045:21 5058:12 5093:7 absorb 5054:1 absorbability 5054:1 academic 4853:21 academy 4853:17 accept 5054:5 5116:1 5125:11 5127:15 accepted 4865:4 4990:2 4994:8 5035:11 5091:19 5093:18 5116:2 5117:8 5124:18 accepts 5045:6 access 4878:2 5027:12 accessory 4879:10 accommodate 4838:20 accomplish 4872:12 account 4830:22 4831:5 4915:19 4919:17 accountable 5114:25 5115:1 accounted 4899:11 4954:18 4958:17 accounting 4880:1 4950:2 accurate 4818:19,20 4818:23 4847:9 4916:10 4985:14 5132:5 accurately 4813:11 4846:22 4850:5 ace 4878:3 acids 5010:24 5011:4 acknowledge 4967:2 5040:15 act 4850:15 4908:21 5054:2 actinolite 4936:20 action 5090:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [active - 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caused] cancel 4883:3 cancer 4811:10 4831:18,21 4832:3 4832:9 4833:16,21 4833:24,25 4844:25 4845:1 4847:12,12 4849:25 4854:18 4868:7 4871:15 4881:11 4883:2 4891:8 4906:13 4907:16 4918:1 4926:15 4927:12 4938:24 4959:23 4970:2 4980:11 5034:18 5062:6 5110:21 5113:25 cancerous 4844:21 4844:23 cancers 4846:20,22 4848:4 4850:2,3 4868:8 4897:1 cap 4930:15,17 5092:23 capable 4864:22 5061:13 5092:5 capped 5068:5 capping 5067:15 carburetor 4902:4 carcinogenesis 5034:10 care 4824:14,17,22 4825:6 4940:21 5041:15 5081:20 career 4846:8 4848:19 4859:4 4864:8 careful 4849:22 5065:14 carefully 4857:17 4942:21 carload 4833:24 carolina 4839:13 4841:18,24,25 5107:13,18 5108:5 5108:10 5109:22 Page 10 5127:19 5092:7 5093:12,16 carpenter 5002:11 5096:21 5097:8,14 cars 5091:24 5103:7 5106:9 case 4810:23,23 5107:10 5110:13 4826:3 4834:7,24 5111:9 5114:7,11 4835:25 4852:11,11 5117:11 5118:18 4852:14,15,16,17,20 5119:25 5120:1,13 4854:3,23 4855:1 5123:7,13 5125:25 4855:11,18,21,25 cases 4823:20 4856:2,5,8 4863:10 4850:17 4853:16,24 4863:22 4866:23 4855:12 4856:20 4876:8 4879:1 4859:8 4861:12 4885:19 4887:25 4862:16,17,19,22,25 4888:1,2 4889:3,25 4863:6,19,19 4895:11,12,16 4866:5 4868:22 4896:1,4,5,5 4876:5,11,13,22,25 4899:19 4903:25 4877:5 4878:8,9 4907:25 4930:2 4879:8,23 4882:1 4931:11,12 4937:6 4882:10 4888:5,22 4942:3,9,12,16 4894:13,14 4896:25 4943:11,19 4953:13 4899:9,21,23 4955:21 4957:4 4900:1,22 4901:24 4958:3,8 4960:3 4903:6,7,15,17 4963:1,22 4964:23 4904:2 4931:4 4965:14 4967:10,11 4936:9 4937:4,8,17 4967:11 4969:13 4938:4,18,21 4973:22 4979:7 4949:5,11,12,18 4982:2 4983:20,23 4950:2,12 4954:9 4984:20 4987:14 4954:18,20 4956:6 4998:12,19,22 4957:9 4958:19 4999:9 5006:22 4962:23,24 4976:9 5009:16 5015:5 4980:12 4984:16 5017:11,14 5019:16 4987:2,24 4988:2,5 5019:25 5020:1 4988:8,14 5018:12 5021:8,10 5026:22 5025:6 5027:11,21 5026:22 5029:2,4 5032:4,5,14,21 5035:6 5037:3 5035:2 5061:17 5042:6,8 5045:10 5079:19 5081:5,5 5048:15,20 5049:21 5108:16,17 5110:19 5051:20,20 5054:13 5120:5 5054:18 5059:15 cast 4904:3 5061:4 5075:6 categories 4827:2 5079:20,23 5080:5 4849:9 4879:8 5080:8,17 5081:1 4884:21 4908:17 5082:4 5085:15,16 4950:1 4954:11 categorized 4949:17 4988:14,23 category 4846:12 4878:12 4909:19 4939:6 4954:13 caught 4863:1 causal 4893:8 5081:12 causation 4834:5 4848:11,20 4868:3 4900:14,15 4921:9 4932:14 4977:4,11 5003:11 5037:3,17 5087:16 causative 4900:18 5080:17 cause 4845:21,25 4846:1,3,5 4871:24 4878:10 4879:14 4881:9,16 4882:3 4882:14,23 4883:6 4890:25 4891:21 4895:1 4903:23 4904:5 4910:22 4911:10 4922:19 4931:23 4932:10,12 4935:5,8,11,12,15 4957:14 4958:2,7 4959:4 4962:1,5 4985:16 4986:14 4987:8,15 4992:14 4992:16 4997:14 4998:9 5015:3 5017:4 5024:4 5026:10,19 5031:18 5034:24 5037:4,5 5037:11 5040:1 5041:1,3 5045:2,7 5058:8 5079:11 5086:18 5087:20 5088:16 caused 4831:18,21 4845:12 4846:11,20 4879:18 4880:16 4904:12 4956:6,7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [caused - chapters] 4956:19 4957:15 4958:11 4962:5 4977:14 4978:20 4980:1 4981:2 4982:11 5016:25 5019:18 5024:10 5041:25 5042:16 5052:3 5059:22 5081:10 5082:9 causes 4832:2 4880:25 4881:5,23 4882:22 4883:5 4885:3 4980:4 5045:8 causing 4856:11 4892:17 4899:7 4922:25 4958:24 5003:23 5020:2 5034:23 5052:7 5053:1 5055:20 5081:10 5086:22 5090:10 5092:5 caustic 5010:25 5011:4 cc 5067:19 cc's 5067:23 cedillo 4799:8,9 4801:4 4802:16,17 4803:7,10 4804:3 4805:7 4806:1,7 4807:10,13,21 4808:24 4809:2,6,9 4809:13,15 4810:7 4810:9,13 4811:1,4 4811:10,13 4812:5 4812:17,23 4813:13 4813:18 4814:5,21 4816:18,23,25 4817:4 4819:22,25 4820:17,21 4821:18 4821:21,25 4822:8 4822:10 4823:10,15 4823:17 4824:3,13 4824:16 4825:1,5,8 4825:10,14,19,22,25 Page 11 4827:1 4828:23 4829:16,21,23 4830:6,9,12,17 4832:6,13,21 4833:1,4,10,14,23 4834:4,12,15,17,21 4835:2,7,12,16,19 4835:22,24 4836:19 4837:4,23,25 4838:24 4839:5 4840:8,16 4886:5 4886:15 4887:4,5,6 4898:2 4904:25 4905:6,14,16,22 4906:1 4917:4,9,22 4926:22 4928:17 4929:1 4951:20 4952:25 4960:20 4961:14,20 4963:14 4964:12,22 4965:12 4966:22 4967:14,20 4967:23,25 4970:21 4971:3,8 4973:10 4981:20,23 4992:6 4993:8,12,16 5018:20,23 5019:4 5036:12 5038:11,18 5042:21 5043:7,11 5043:14 5046:12,19 5046:25 5047:3 5057:17,21 5058:10 5058:13 5063:13,17 5064:8,12 5065:1 5094:16 5095:12 5101:1,10,16,23 5103:13,20,23 5105:13,16 5106:4 5106:8,18 5108:14 5109:15,25 5110:6 5110:16 5112:13 5113:6,11 5114:18 5114:23 5115:14 5116:5,18 5117:4 5117:20,22 5118:8 5118:12 5119:5,12 5119:15,20 5120:16 5122:5,15 5123:9 5123:16,24 5124:3 5124:13,16 5125:18 5126:1,6 5127:8,11 5127:14,20,24 5128:8,18 5129:5 5129:23 5130:25 cedillo's 5120:12 cell 4837:10 4933:11 4974:8 5059:9 cellophane 4808:7 cells 4844:17 4849:20 4850:10 4868:12 4921:23 cement 4939:10 4952:9,13,14 5013:4 5014:3,5 center 4901:19 centered 5106:11 certain 4803:15 4842:8,9,16 4843:4 4844:23 4846:17 4848:8 4860:25 4873:7 4890:4,5 4891:3 4904:22 4915:17 4918:2 4925:2 4932:4 4933:6 4992:19,20 5003:22 5075:23,25 5075:25 5081:11 5107:24 5116:18 5130:13 certainly 4818:23 4822:23 4845:24 4906:2 4935:7 4991:13,21 5010:7 5015:12 5043:16 5046:19 5047:3 5048:4 5064:5 5072:19 5097:16 5108:17 5112:3,5 5125:19 certainty 4884:1 5014:17,17 5020:13 5038:3 5074:2 certificate 4948:6 certification 4842:3 4975:14 4976:1 5005:6,9 5132:1 certifications 4841:4 4975:20 certified 4798:17 4975:11 4979:3 5005:4,11 5132:3 certify 5132:4 cetera 4816:10 chair 5099:9 chairman 4852:10 4871:6 challenge 5115:2,4 challenged 5119:24 challenges 5118:3 chambers 5099:10 chance 5103:25 5113:11,14 change 4863:11 4895:5,7 4904:8,12 4918:8 4923:12 4925:2,7,19 4959:20 5077:21 5110:3,6 changed 4888:13 4890:11,14 4902:10 4914:25 4917:1 4922:23 4986:18 5044:6,7,23 5046:7 5077:14 5092:9 5126:18 changes 4849:18 4925:1 5113:10 changing 5046:4 5091:25 chapter 4867:17,19 4867:21,24 4868:1 4868:4,7,8,10,15,18 4887:12,14 4893:22 4894:20 5035:1 chapters 4854:15 4868:19,24 4869:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [chapters - clorox] 4872:18 4971:25 characteristic 4805:5,16 characteristics 4806:4 4811:21 4880:4 4884:17 characterize 4963:18 charge 4810:10 4930:25 4931:10 5006:2 5092:18,22 5092:25 5093:1,4 5093:25 5122:6 charges 5128:10,13 5128:17 charles 4798:8 4802:7 4837:15 chart 4950:23 cheaper 4804:9 check 4981:18 5067:3 5130:23 chemical 4951:1 4954:1,8,9 4955:1 4958:17 4988:18,21 4988:21,25 4989:6 4989:6,8 5010:19 5013:7 5034:2 chemically 4989:8 chemicals 4953:5 4955:6 4988:24 chest 4874:19,22 4880:13 4956:7 chief 4810:17 4841:10 5114:7 5124:5,7 childhood 4881:11 chip 4803:16 choice 5058:5 5103:5 5108:1 chose 4807:23 5046:25 5058:3 5107:24 5108:1,14 5108:14 5111:2 5113:12 5114:12 5126:10,20,21,24 Page 12 chosen 4978:8 chris 4940:15 chronic 4882:2,3,9 chrysotile 4935:8,9 4935:11 4953:9 4986:14 4987:3 5009:22,25 5010:16 5010:19 5012:18,22 5013:4 5016:25 5017:2 5025:12,16 5025:20,24 5026:10 5028:24 5029:4,4 5029:12 5030:14,20 5031:17 5039:25 5041:1 5050:22 5055:25 5056:4 5057:4 5083:16 chrystal 4798:8 4802:7 4837:15 churg 4854:3 5080:6 cigarette 4806:8 4832:2 4836:1 4882:13,19,21 4888:21 4889:14,17 4889:22 4890:17 4891:24 4894:9 4896:2,11 4899:16 4903:21,23 4908:21 4909:8 4922:24 4927:21 4957:11 4967:17 4969:2 4970:8,18 5020:10 5020:14 5053:23 5060:23,23 5067:6 5067:15 5071:3 5076:16,16 5077:17 5078:22,25 5081:8 5081:11 5121:5 cigarettes 4803:24 4808:10 4810:12 4830:4 4831:17 4832:5 4833:25 4835:13,25 4886:3 4888:19 4889:12 4894:16 4895:13 4898:13 4900:3 4903:8,16 4906:21 4906:23,24 4909:13 4918:5,14 4920:21 4926:2,5 4928:1,3 4928:12 4948:15 4957:5 4959:15 4960:8 4962:1 4965:3 4966:24 4968:10 4969:7,11 4983:16 4995:2,9 4997:2,13 4998:2,8 4998:8 5017:17 5018:19 5019:18 5020:1,25 5041:23 5042:1,17 5044:11 5045:18 5051:8 5052:4 5053:9,18 5054:11 5056:10 5060:3,15 5061:3 5061:12,22,23 5062:7 5066:3,7 5067:2 5081:23 5082:9 5083:20 5116:10,15,24 5123:1 cilia 4921:24 circles 4827:23 circumstance 4897:4 4954:13 circumstances 4842:24 4844:20 4949:24 4992:19,20 5037:20,21 ciriello 5097:21 citation 4928:24 cite 4928:1,23 5024:19,25 citing 4960:12 city 4799:15 claim 4903:20 4948:14 4959:1 4962:19 5019:18 claimed 4896:1,10 4898:11,12 4899:15 4899:24 4900:2 4948:8,9 4958:1 5081:7,8,9 claiming 4957:25 claims 5051:7 clarification 5129:16 clarified 4916:21 4917:2 4967:17 clarify 4939:2 4951:24 clark 4800:7 4802:25 4803:3 4838:10,13 5104:6 class 4846:4 classified 4878:8 4881:19 clean 5004:6 5007:11 clear 4892:7,24 4917:5,6,10 4935:8 4995:23 5063:22 5074:17 clearance 4882:20 4915:2,16,20 4916:2 4917:14,18 4918:23 4920:8,18 4921:11,12,19 4922:1,4,8,16,18,19 4933:2 5077:8,9 cleared 4916:10 4920:16 4921:9 5087:5,8 clearing 4921:7 5077:22 clears 5077:15 client 5115:1 5125:7 client's 4991:10,22 clifton 5022:5 clinicopathological 4938:3 clorox 4857:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [close - concerns] close 4851:14 4883:4 4886:17 4950:6 4981:15 closely 5040:9 closer 5103:18 closing 5097:11 5123:4 clothes 4949:16 clothing 5007:13 5016:1,3,12 cluster 4914:4 4923:18,23 5072:21 5073:9 clusters 4892:2,2 4908:9,13 4910:22 4913:12,16 4918:21 4923:14 4924:3 5068:25 5073:6 clutches 5092:1 coal 4845:25 4933:15,16 coated 4858:9 4934:13 coauthors 4988:5 cocoon 5004:10 cocoons 5016:6 cohorts 4855:16 collapses 4813:22 colleagues 4870:12 4877:16 collect 4858:20 4860:13 collected 4862:16 collectively 5031:4,7 collector 4933:11 college 4841:1,8 4842:11 4874:19,21 colloquy 4824:18 column 4878:17 5012:22 columns 4862:12 come 4809:3 4813:21 4815:4 4819:5 4822:13 4823:21 4825:4 Page 13 4834:24,24 4837:3 4844:14 4845:1 4853:13 4855:24 4857:17 4863:17,18 4871:22 4902:18 4914:17 4927:21 4931:19 4934:2 4961:4 4973:17 4976:10,13 4993:21 5020:9 5038:11 5039:9 5092:12 5094:14,16 5102:16 5102:17 5103:21 5108:6,8 5109:9,10 5117:3 comes 4812:13 4850:12 4861:21 4934:24 4978:23 5019:5 5025:21,25 5076:1 5077:16 comfortable 4850:19 4870:4 5104:24 coming 4807:25 4813:25 4816:19 4821:2 4822:25 4824:25 4829:9,10 4961:11 4987:12 5025:16,17 5031:16 5104:16 commencing 4798:21 comment 4813:9 comments 4904:23 commercial 4893:25 4928:5 4962:24 5025:6 commercially 4935:7 5030:12 commitment 5102:5 common 4846:4 4848:6 4880:14 4881:11 4936:22 4937:1 4938:6 4949:24 4954:19 4956:2 5030:13 commonly 4884:24 4937:10 community 5089:20 comp 4888:5 companies 5006:20 5006:23 5091:23,23 5092:13 company 4798:8 4802:7 4837:16 4838:1 4889:9 4901:4 4927:1 4929:15 4937:23 4948:21 4951:1 4982:20 4983:12,12 4989:2,23 4990:7 5010:6 5011:5 5021:19 5022:5 compare 4857:9 4936:3,9 4966:8 compared 4894:17 5055:12 comparing 5027:2 5052:15 comparison 4909:1 compartment 4922:1 compartments 4921:13,13 4922:16 compatible 4863:5 compensated 4854:7 4930:10 compensation 4930:13 competence 4975:24 competency 4820:12 competent 4842:7 4842:18 4864:21 competing 4961:3,4 compiled 4861:11 compiling 4861:14 4862:15 complaint 5117:14 complete 4842:12 5097:1 completed 4894:12 completely 5057:24 5105:19 component 4915:17 4915:18,19 4916:1 4916:3 4921:19 5009:25 components 4810:1 4915:16 composition 4860:14 4870:16 5009:23 5034:2 compound 4983:1 4984:6,13,18 4985:3,16,23 4987:14 5030:19 compounds 5121:25 compressed 4819:2 compression 4813:12 4815:21,22 4816:3,5,10,13,16 4818:14 comprise 4851:19 compulsive 4861:4 4875:13 computer 4813:4 4862:20 4878:3 concentrate 4857:25 4861:3 concentration 4939:4 concentrations 4919:22 5090:2 concern 4827:7 4904:25 4905:5 5098:25 5099:24 concerned 4877:22 4905:17 5064:25 5106:20 concerning 4982:1 concerns 4827:23 4831:16 4964:19 5098:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [conclude - contributes] conclude 4887:17 4920:14 5020:9,13 5081:16,18 5095:2 concluded 4803:19 4892:25 4965:15 5025:14 conclusion 4891:4 4891:19 4916:15 4917:12 4919:1 4922:5,11 4938:6 4967:8 5026:8 5088:19 5089:8 conclusions 4892:9 4893:17 4900:7 4908:23 4914:17 4919:14,16 4941:7 5065:24 5066:1 5089:17 condition 4807:22 4808:2 4809:22 4813:11 conditions 4879:10 conduct 4898:8 4899:14 5108:14 conducted 4859:13 4879:17 4897:12,18 4899:13 4902:24 4906:12 4948:25 4970:1,5 5046:22 5109:16 conducting 4858:25 4907:15 4941:19 conduit 4964:16 4966:5 conference 4840:17 confident 4879:13 confirm 4830:18 4856:6 4976:14 4977:1 confirmed 5048:16 5049:11 confirming 4979:7 conformance 5071:12 Page 14 confront 5126:14 confronted 4827:20 confronting 5018:24 confused 4848:4 confusion 4850:9 conjunction 4884:9 connection 4821:3 4966:17 5122:3 5126:9 connery 4799:17 consensus 4871:22 consider 4864:21 4889:6 4900:18 4920:24 4922:10 4929:8 4941:14 5063:2,6,23 5064:6 5065:11 5076:7 5097:18 5115:6 5129:24 considerable 4904:4 4907:20 consideration 4904:8 5008:3 5015:4 5062:5 considered 4893:11 4919:20 4921:1 4972:11 5082:7 considering 4918:20 5126:8 considers 4929:9 consistency 4820:23 consistent 4812:7 5068:15 consistently 4821:2 5044:13 constraints 5127:25 construction 5002:6 5002:10,10,17 consultant 4828:8 4828:12 4829:9 4988:9 consultant's 4827:21 consultation 4843:15 4876:7,9 4947:5 4999:6 5032:6 5078:10 consultations 4876:14 consulted 5078:8 consulting 5094:4 consumer 5122:19 consuming 4861:2,8 contact 5008:8 5010:3 contacts 4949:14 contain 5030:18 5051:13 contained 4831:2 4933:24 4941:2 4953:8 4967:10 4995:4,14 5007:5 5007:20 5020:6 5035:9 5038:9 5049:3 containers 4942:21 containing 4869:20 4888:20 4927:25 4968:10 4986:14 4991:6 4994:5,11 4995:9 4999:24 5000:6,8 5010:8,15 5010:16 5022:13 5023:14 5040:12 contains 4850:22 5030:20 contaminant 4935:10,10 5030:13 contaminate 5025:20 5040:25 contaminated 4958:6 4994:15 4995:20 4996:1 5028:19,25 5029:5 5031:10,12 5032:15 5032:23 5034:7 5035:3,16,20 5039:22,23,25 contaminates 5025:24 contaminating 5023:19 5024:15 5035:12 contamination 4946:17 4958:1,9 4995:18 5025:25 5026:5,8,10,17,17 5026:18 5029:2,8 5040:24,24 content 4880:21 4893:1 4943:15 4969:23 5017:19 5021:2 5026:18 5032:20 5062:19 contention 5009:16 contents 4883:13 5068:11 context 4977:23 5062:21 continue 4822:13 4840:23 4900:12 4993:25 4994:2 5058:14 5059:10 continued 4800:1 4802:5 4837:13 4863:6 4938:12 continues 4878:10 continuing 4803:14 contractors 5008:21 contrary 5088:15 contrast 4808:1 5056:19 contribute 4891:21 4899:8 4903:23 4922:19,25 4931:23 5017:19 5021:1 5029:9 5087:16 contributed 4959:4 4962:5 4976:22 4981:2 5040:3 5081:10 contributes 4960:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [contributing - counting] contributing 4890:7 4892:16 4893:18 4894:8 4895:1 4899:6 4900:21 4958:7 4959:8 4984:22 4985:13 4987:8 4991:7,11 5017:25 5023:20 5024:16 5035:13,25 5036:10,20 5037:10 5038:1,2,24 5040:12 5041:3 contribution 4871:8 4984:11 5007:17 5017:21 5021:3 contributory 4983:19 4990:3 4994:9 4997:3,14 control 4810:21 4812:6 4820:25 4857:9 4883:14 4935:20,23 4936:5 4936:8,24 4937:2 4970:7,23 5027:5 5027:13,16,18,21 5028:1,7,12 controls 4970:4,16 5027:2 5070:5 convened 5096:19 convenience 4863:25 4864:4 convenient 4950:13 converted 4863:3 conveyor 4816:9,12 copies 4867:6 copy 4812:18 4937:25 4963:6 5021:24 corners 4906:12 correct 4807:12 4809:8,11,12 4810:24 4812:1 4814:24 4828:15,19 4829:15 4839:10 4840:19,20 4847:14 Page 15 4848:1 4859:19,20 4860:20 4872:10 4873:20 4876:3 4883:20 4887:15 4889:17 4891:16 4898:9,10,13,17 4908:21 4909:17 4918:5 4926:16 4929:13 4931:1,13 4932:22 4933:1,5 4935:1 4941:8,20 4943:24,25 4948:22 4958:3 4959:5 4963:16 4968:11,15 4972:16 4974:19,20 4974:21 4975:2,7 4975:18 4976:1,6 4976:15,23 4977:17 4978:1,10,22 4979:4,5,8,16,20 4980:1,2,16,17,22 4980:23 4981:3,4 4981:14 4982:4,12 4982:17,20,23 4985:1,17,18,25 4986:7,10 4987:5,6 4987:9,10,16,17 4990:4,7 4991:25 4994:6,10,16 4995:4 4996:5,10 4996:18,24 4997:4 4997:15,19,25 4998:6,15,19 4999:3,6,14 5000:8 5000:11,21 5001:24 5002:19,20 5005:7 5005:17,23 5006:16 5007:8,24 5008:3,9 5008:12 5009:5,18 5009:19 5010:4 5011:12,16,23 5012:1,8,12 5013:4 5013:8 5014:9,11 5014:14,20,22 5015:11,17,21 5017:1 5019:19 5021:13,22 5022:20 5022:23,25 5024:11 5024:13,17,21 5025:1,8,12,17,21 5026:5 5027:23 5028:3,4,13,21,25 5029:6,12,17 5030:1,4 5031:1,18 5033:6,9,15,16 5034:7,20 5035:9 5035:13,15,18 5037:10 5040:3 5041:4,12,13,20 5042:1,4,7,24 5043:5 5048:17,21 5048:25 5049:4,8 5049:12,15,18,23 5050:6,7,11,20 5051:1,13,17 5052:8,11,19,23 5053:2,6,19 5054:11,16,20,24 5055:13,25 5056:5 5056:23 5060:4,8 5060:11,16 5061:18 5062:2,8,11,25 5063:3,7,12 5065:12,14,17,20 5066:13 5068:13,19 5068:20 5069:9 5070:18 5071:5,9 5071:13 5072:9,13 5072:15,18 5075:4 5075:7,15,16 5076:5 5077:6,19 5078:2,9,22 5079:4 5079:12,17 5082:5 5082:9,16,20,23,24 5083:13 5084:2,10 5085:8,21,24,25 5086:10,18 5087:24 5088:12,16 5089:20 5090:11,18,22,25 5091:4 5092:15,19 5093:8,19,25 5115:13 5124:13 corrections 4829:2 correctly 4982:7 5001:8 5013:11 5022:9,14 5032:16 5032:25 5066:9 5067:10,17 5068:7 5070:24 5087:20 5088:24 5089:5 5090:5 5129:8 correlated 4940:7 5025:16 correlates 4958:20 correlation 4938:3 4940:9,12 4956:21 corroborate 5020:21 corrosion 5010:19 cosmetic 5030:19 5031:1 5032:14 cough 4932:20 coughed 4934:9 counsel 4819:21 4824:18 4832:14 4981:19 4997:7 5019:7 5027:4 5037:13,15 5048:4 5064:2,6,19 5094:7 5100:23 5106:19,24 5110:10 5111:17 5115:6 5117:9 5127:19 5128:22 5129:8,8 counsel's 5064:15 count 4858:7,12 4910:9 4913:12 4916:8 5075:21,23 5076:2 counted 4851:16 4859:7 4893:4 4913:13 5084:8 counting 4893:15 4908:8 4909:20 4911:2 4918:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [counting - crocidolite] 5071:12 country 4824:1 4845:25 4872:8 4881:24,25 4936:18 4939:10 counts 4859:8 4914:24 county 4798:1,19 couple 4843:18 4866:13 4877:16 5003:10 5048:8 5088:4 5112:8 course 4861:22 4886:21 4919:22 4947:1,10 4976:12 4992:1 5019:8 court 4798:1,18 4802:3,14,19,24 4803:4,8,13 4804:15 4805:6,11 4805:13 4806:9,16 4806:21 4807:4,12 4807:14 4808:11,14 4808:19 4809:4,7 4809:12,14,18 4810:5,8,11,22 4811:2,7,12,14,24 4812:8,20,25 4813:5,14,16 4814:1,3 4815:16 4816:1,17,22,24 4817:3,7,10 4818:8 4818:11 4819:9,13 4819:17,20,24 4820:2,5,7,9,16,20 4821:4,23 4822:2,8 4822:21 4823:9,11 4823:12,16 4824:2 4824:4,11,15,21 4825:7,9,13,16,20 4825:24 4826:25 4827:25 4828:25 4829:13,15,20 4830:1,8,11,16 4831:15 4832:12,15 Page 16 4832:19,22 4833:3 4833:7,11 4834:9 4834:14,16,18,23 4835:4,9,14,17,20 4836:3,17,25 4837:5,8,21 4838:2 4838:8 4839:1,4 4840:4,6,14 4886:9 4886:12,16,24 4887:5 4889:4,8 4892:13 4897:14 4898:1,4 4901:10 4904:15 4905:2,13 4905:24 4906:2 4909:4 4916:18 4917:6,20,23,25 4927:14 4928:14 4929:6,9,20 4930:14,23 4959:25 4960:19 4961:5,9 4961:15,18,21 4963:12,16 4964:6 4964:8 4965:19,23 4966:3,10 4967:18 4967:21,24 4968:1 4970:11,25 4971:4 4971:10,13,16 4973:12,15 4974:2 4974:7 4981:8,18 4990:11,13,16 4991:3,8,24 4992:2 4992:10 4993:11,14 4993:19 4994:2 5018:21 5019:6 5036:3,24 5039:7 5039:14 5043:9,13 5043:22,25 5044:8 5045:9 5046:18,24 5047:2,5,17 5048:9 5048:12,14 5057:19 5058:12,14,19,21 5059:4,8 5063:5,8 5063:15 5064:3,9 5064:14,18,24 5065:3,7 5094:7,10 5094:13,20,23 5095:1,7,11,14,18 5095:23 5096:4,9 5096:12,15 5097:25 5098:5 5099:16,19 5100:3,6,9,13,16,19 5100:22,25 5101:4 5101:12,18,21,24 5102:1,9,12,15 5103:9,12,22 5104:1,4,7,10,24 5105:2,5,11,17,24 5106:2,6,17 5107:2 5107:7 5110:4,14 5111:22 5112:2,11 5112:21 5113:2,8 5114:6 5115:6,9,21 5116:4,13,16,19 5117:16 5118:6,10 5118:22 5119:17 5120:20,24 5121:18 5122:2,14 5123:15 5123:18,23 5124:1 5124:6,15,17 5125:15,24 5126:2 5127:1,10,13,15,22 5128:4,9,15,25 5129:15,20,23 5130:8,15,20,22 5131:1 5132:3 court's 4904:20 4905:7,15 5039:8 5064:17 courtesy 5109:21 5111:5,17,18 courthouse 4798:19 courtroom 4837:6 4886:23 4887:2 4919:6 4974:1,5 5059:3,6 5095:24 5099:14 courtrooms 5092:15 courts 4966:6 couscouris 5119:25 cover 4867:16 4873:11 4931:16 covered 4867:14 4869:25 4920:2 4921:21 4931:7 5057:18 covering 4952:7 5004:3 5006:14 5010:15,16 5015:1 coverings 5009:21 crazy 4924:13 create 4804:11 4813:23 4861:14 5099:23 created 4805:8 4810:9 4811:25 4813:8,24 5125:3 creating 4812:11 4817:25 credibility 4823:24 4824:7 4992:24 4993:22 5039:11 credible 5034:11 criteria 4872:23 4900:15 5126:7 criterion 5112:4 critical 4819:4 criticism 4902:6 4927:12 4928:20,25 4929:5,7,8,9 4960:5 5122:20 criticisms 4904:22 4928:19 criticized 4960:22 5088:1 critique 4961:6 crocidolite 4890:6 4890:23 4894:1 4895:14 4898:20 4899:1 4900:3 4901:23,25 4903:8 4903:12,14,17 4904:3 4919:21,25 4920:23 4925:15,24 4926:1 4927:6,20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [crocidolite - deep] 4927:22,24,25 4928:4,10,12 4930:1 4935:7 4936:19 4938:16,19 4939:1,3,7,9,14,17 4939:24 4940:1,6 4940:10,12,19 4941:2 4946:1,3,12 4946:16,17 4960:11 4962:6,11,13,19,20 4962:22,23 4966:20 5013:22,24 5017:7 5017:15,18,19 5018:13,15,16 5020:5,7,7,11,14,22 5020:25 5021:2 5025:7 5045:15,17 5045:19,23,23 5046:10 5047:12,14 5047:15 5049:3,7 5050:1 5051:16 5052:6,14,18,25 5053:5,9,10,13,15 5053:18,19,22 5054:15,19,23 5055:7,19,24 5056:3,9,22 5057:3 5060:2,24 5062:6 5066:6 5070:11 5071:4 5073:3 5074:6 5077:10,15 5079:3,7,11,15,21 5080:3,3,4,16 5081:25 5082:5,13 5082:22 5083:16 5085:2,19,21 5086:2 cross 4801:4 4821:24 4822:16,19 4822:19,20,25 4823:5,7,8 4856:19 4906:21 4907:18 4929:2,8 4966:9 4973:18 4974:12,14 4991:17 4993:1,6 Page 17 4993:21 5037:1,12 5039:10,12 5058:2 5064:22 5080:10 5101:23 5105:14 5107:23 5108:11,13 5108:20 5109:7,17 5113:14 5114:17 5117:15 5121:12,14 5121:23 5123:8 5124:23 5125:10 5127:19 crossed 4828:5,11 4829:8 crumb 4961:8 crumbled 4945:13 4945:14 crump 4908:13 4912:21,21,22,25 4915:8,15 4922:14 4923:13 4932:11 5056:2,14 5068:22 5077:23 5078:1,5,7 5078:9 crump's 4908:1 4911:23 ct 4956:15 cummings 5061:9 5118:16 5120:7,9 5126:14 cumulative 4941:11 5121:2,22 cures 4881:13 current 4841:22 4843:8 4867:15 4903:22 currently 4859:11 5008:19 5009:1 cut 4942:20 4943:3 5004:14,18 5015:9 5057:24 cutting 4816:9 cv 4865:3 cyanamid 5022:5 cytopathology 4868:11 d d 4801:1 daily 4861:25 damaged 5122:8 damaging 4909:11 damp 5123:3 danger 4804:5 dangerous 4804:12 4832:2 4833:20 daniel 4800:4 4803:2 4838:13 daniels 4800:7 4802:25 4803:3 4838:10,14 darnton 5055:23 5056:19 data 4904:24 4917:16 4919:17 5014:22 5045:25 5056:17 5070:10 5071:9 5089:23 5126:5 database 4859:12 4861:11,14,24 4862:15,21 4863:4 4863:8,9,11,13,24 4876:24 4877:3,4,6 4877:9,13 4878:4 4878:13 4879:17 4883:10,10 4950:9 4998:14,18 4999:8 4999:19,20,23 5025:6 date 5132:7 dated 4828:18 4982:3 5132:14 david 5050:14 davis 4799:8 day 4842:15 4863:2 4892:22 4990:18 4997:18,21,24 4998:2,8 5051:9 5065:4 5074:11 5081:23 5101:19 5103:6 days 4854:3 4871:21 4939:24 4940:21 4972:22 5079:2,6 5096:22,22 5099:22 de 5117:11,21 5118:19 5119:18 dead 5124:16 deal 4851:24 4854:16 4870:11 4972:9 dealing 4810:20 4848:7 4849:25 4850:6 4866:23 4953:4 4978:15 5068:23 5078:20,24 deals 4826:1 4850:9 4868:4,7,8,10 4870:17 dealt 4813:19 4814:2,15 4815:2 4970:13 5047:22 5056:21 5069:1 death 4842:25 4897:10 debate 5089:19 decades 4880:24 4882:7,12 4887:20 4940:16 5078:9 deceased 5121:11 decide 4844:25 4849:15 decided 5127:3 decision 4848:9 5109:16 5110:11 5113:15,16 decisions 5120:18 declare 4842:18 decrease 5006:6 5015:9 decreasing 4954:6 dedicated 4848:19 4849:4 4867:21 deep 4914:3 4923:23 4924:5,18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [deep - developing] 4932:16,18 4934:18 defect 4836:6 4837:1 defendant 4799:12 4799:16 4800:7 4802:15,20,25 4808:15 4831:24 4837:22 4838:3,9 4887:14 5037:16 5044:13 defendant's 4822:24 4833:8 defendants 4798:9 4799:20 4838:22 4913:1 4931:8 4960:3 4999:1 5117:18 defense 4804:19 4817:12 4861:18 4868:21 4888:10,25 4889:2 4931:11 4998:21 4999:6,9 5037:2 5048:1 5090:22,24 5091:3 defeo 4799:18 4802:17,18,23 4837:25 4838:6 4840:5 4905:20 deficiency 4827:9 definite 4956:17 degradation 4808:9 degree 4840:1,7 4841:2,13 4865:14 4865:15 4869:13 4883:25 4899:8 4972:7 4977:11 5036:8 5038:3 deionized 5068:5,11 delay 4898:4 delete 4829:17 deliberate 5103:1,3 5103:4,6 deliberating 5101:17 Page 18 delicate 4933:13 delve 4848:21 demonstrate 5061:4 demonstrated 5020:8 5054:10 5059:15 demonstrating 5054:19 5057:9 demonstrative 4814:22 4815:13 denied 5117:14 dense 4956:10 deny 5121:23 dep 5107:18 5109:22 5112:25 5113:16 5118:23 5119:11 department 4952:3 5001:4,13,24 5006:3 depending 5034:2 depends 4844:19 5006:12,17,18,19 depiction 4814:24 depictions 4817:15 depicts 4813:11 deposed 4888:2 deposit 4922:12 5076:18 deposited 4892:1,6 4892:21 4893:13 4894:2,3 4908:14 4911:12 4912:1 4913:18 4914:6 4915:1,6,13 4919:9 4920:21 4931:25 5077:4,10 depositing 5077:22 5078:19 deposition 4885:21 4915:4 4917:13,18 4918:22 4919:4,7 4947:11 4953:18 4957:20 4958:21 4982:17 4984:5 4990:1 5019:13 5040:23 5051:24 5080:13,25 5106:10 5106:11,20 5107:11 5107:13,22 5108:3 5108:4 5109:9 5110:24 5111:2,5 5112:7 5113:14 5117:10 5118:7,11 5118:14 5119:6,7 5123:13 depositions 4888:4 4889:6,7 4967:10 4974:21,24 5030:7 5030:9 5109:6 5121:9 deposits 5030:13 describe 4880:3 4885:22 4893:20 4952:16 5052:2 described 4814:17 4864:9 4876:23 4892:10 4902:22 4928:11 4945:19 4983:4 5006:15 5015:2 5035:24 5040:22 describes 4815:20 describing 4815:21 4817:6 4827:2 4873:24 4942:4 4952:8,20 description 4801:8 4807:24 4815:9 4818:19 4847:9 5010:5 descriptions 4950:1 descriptive 4849:5 4856:21 design 4836:6 4837:1 designated 4812:17 4816:2 4824:19 4829:18 4835:17 4836:20 5001:17 designation 4835:14 designations 4803:15 4821:24 4822:24,25 4833:8 5106:3 designed 5119:23 desk 5074:3 despite 4818:21 5026:7 destroy 4857:18 detail 4839:18 4849:1 4871:10 4879:9 4925:22 4939:21 details 4872:17 5005:8,14 detect 4901:16 detectable 4960:11 5081:24 detecting 4908:4 detection 5052:22 determination 4976:21 determine 4846:22 4848:20,23 4857:2 4858:17 4859:10 4860:22 4871:24 4872:15,19 4896:18 4918:8 4941:10 4943:14 4979:24 5008:23 5009:3 5050:17 determined 4857:4 4893:15 4910:17 5050:17 determines 4897:9 5002:13 determining 4848:11 5089:23 develop 4810:16 4862:21 4882:8 5028:20 developed 4980:13 developing 4881:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [development - disproportionate] development 4810:19 4821:13 4869:10 5081:12 diagnose 4846:21 4871:23 diagnosed 4875:13 4878:15 4982:3 diagnoses 4843:22 4843:25 diagnosing 4872:15 diagnosis 4843:24 4844:15 4848:1,14 4849:11 4850:10,15 4850:19 4851:6 4854:18 4862:1,2 4868:3 4942:8 4946:21 4947:15 4976:5,14,20 4977:2 4978:9,16 4979:23 5048:16 5049:12 diagnostic 4849:2 4849:13 4850:7 4853:12 4873:23 4875:11 4990:20 5042:23 diagrams 4817:14 4818:4,7 diameter 4908:13 4913:24 4932:15,18 4934:11,15,17 5071:24 5072:5,18 5072:22 diameters 4923:15 5088:22 diametrically 5126:20 dickens 4831:24 4832:7 die 4934:1 died 4979:8 5027:8 dies 4897:6 difference 4827:1 4827:15,16 4847:11 4910:2,17 4915:11 5037:24 5038:22 5039:2 5076:12,12 differences 4804:7 5076:20 different 4804:6 4806:3 4846:14,15 4853:15 4855:12 4864:10,14 4866:6 4867:4 4875:9 4883:13 4884:20,21 4884:24 4900:16 4902:13 4921:12 4923:18 4934:23,24 4934:25 4942:21 4944:6 4947:25 4967:7 4988:14 4995:21 4999:17 5012:10 5044:16 5053:4,5 5076:25 5083:12 5087:24 5103:3 5109:17 5110:1 difficult 4806:4 4849:17 4850:17 4852:14 4861:8 difficulty 5124:21 digest 4833:24 4933:18 digested 4858:3 4933:22 digesting 4933:19 digestion 4849:8,12 4856:23 4987:5 4996:24 4997:12 5069:6 5080:14 digestions 5074:17 dilute 5082:14 dilution 5082:15 dimensions 5086:19 direct 4801:4 4836:20 4839:5 4886:17 4909:22,25 4910:6 4971:11,14 4973:12 4991:12,16 4991:18 4992:4 Page 19 5008:10 5037:14 5039:9 5045:14 5047:8 5105:15 5106:23 5108:15 5113:11 5119:11 5122:23 direction 4817:24 4901:6 4913:24 4921:24 4923:21 5036:19 5120:19 directions 4918:24 directly 4910:9 4953:14 5020:23 5024:12 5068:17 5069:12,25 5076:17 5077:4 5078:21 5119:24 disagree 4848:15 5054:7 discharge 4947:4 disclosed 4973:4 4991:21 5036:13 5038:5,7 disclosure 4960:18 4970:20 4972:23 4973:2 4993:3 discovery 5107:18 5108:3 5117:23 5118:23 5119:5,7 5119:10 discuss 4814:23 4840:14 4853:18 4946:20 5037:2 5097:18 5098:10,11 5098:23 5100:23 discussed 4874:14 4894:23 4934:11 4947:12 4950:10 5000:20 discussing 4826:8 4840:7 4870:4 4930:9 5016:2 discussion 4814:14 4814:15 4822:7 4835:13 4840:13 4903:10 4938:7 4983:1 4987:18 4993:17 5097:7 5119:16 5120:23 discussions 4869:14 4973:21,22 disease 4843:21 4845:22 4846:20 4847:18 4850:18 4851:3,7 4853:19 4862:8,9 4865:12 4866:24 4867:25 4868:2,3 4872:20 4882:3 4884:13 4885:13 4886:8,14 4888:13 4900:14 4921:10 4922:20 4932:10,13,14 4935:8,11 4936:5 4938:22,23 4957:1 4958:24 4977:15 4979:11 5011:15 5029:21 5062:17 5081:10,13 5088:16 diseases 4845:11,13 4846:1,2,3,5,7,10,25 4848:4 4865:7,10 4865:22,25 4867:3 4868:5,14 4870:8 4871:23 4872:16,24 4874:22 4876:1 4877:14 4879:9 4880:5 4900:11 4944:5 5012:1 5029:20 disintegrating 5061:13 dismiss 5102:7 dismissed 5089:11 disorder 4861:4 dispersed 4945:15 disposed 5000:7 disproportionate 4894:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [dispute - dunst] dispute 5117:6,8,13 dissolve 4857:14,23 4910:13 5069:18 dissolving 4896:16 distilled 5068:5,11 distributed 4911:15 division 4798:1 5001:5,23 dkuszmerski 4800:7 docket 4798:2 4802:8 4837:16 4888:9 doctor 4840:6,18 4841:15 4842:21 4845:5 4846:7 4849:14 4852:5,19 4854:8 4855:8,19 4856:13 4857:1 4858:23 4859:11 4861:18 4862:15 4863:13 4864:6 4865:12,22 4866:22 4867:8 4869:12 4871:13 4873:18 4876:6 4883:17,22 4884:1,10 4885:4 4887:7,18,24 4888:7,14,22 4893:2,16 4895:5 4900:23 4907:6 4921:10 4922:25 4924:21 4925:16 4930:7 4931:24 4935:5 4937:22 4938:25 4939:13 4941:14,22 4942:1 4945:9 4948:24 4952:4 4954:11 4956:20 4957:3,13 4959:1 4962:4 4969:4 5027:16 5059:13 5076:11 5081:15 doctors 4844:13 4850:16 4851:25 Page 20 4853:12 4874:25 downstairs 4886:22 4887:10 4951:10 4973:24 4957:21 4958:21 dr 4803:6 4807:23 4996:7 5033:3 4808:2,6,10 document 4826:5,23 4811:18 4825:11 4828:14,17,20 4826:16,21 4830:2 4829:6 5129:7 4830:3,13,20,23 5130:6 4831:1,17 4832:1 documented 4928:6 4833:18 4834:6 4965:9 4966:25 4838:25 4839:1,11 4967:1,16 4968:8 4840:7 4854:3 5083:19 4866:2,3 4867:12 documents 4827:10 4886:3,6 4891:3,8 4831:11,11,19 4892:18 4893:2 4863:6 5129:21 4904:10,11 4906:3 dodson 4963:2,24 4906:4,11 4907:4 4965:8 4968:23 4914:16 4916:15,22 5083:1,9 5090:8 4916:23,25 4918:1 doing 4848:1 4860:1 4918:2,9 4919:16 4861:5 4874:8 4919:23 4922:17 4896:15 4901:4,7 4924:20 4926:13,17 4902:11 4911:7 4927:12,17 4928:19 4912:25 4913:8 4928:20,22 4931:19 4916:15 4929:23 4934:22 4940:15 4930:19 4933:20 4942:7 4951:18,22 4965:12 4973:21 4953:2,12 4960:4,5 5003:2,3 5005:1 4960:22,24 4964:13 5010:6 5072:13 4965:12,13 4966:10 5101:14,23 5109:22 4966:18,19 4967:5 5115:5 5128:3 4968:23 4970:1,4 door 4905:15,17 4970:15 4971:18 5063:23 5064:2,16 4973:10,18 4974:15 5065:1 5099:8 4979:1 4984:10 doors 4905:21 4986:22 4990:14 dose 5002:24 4991:4,9,20 4994:4 5003:12,14 5014:14 4997:8 5008:5 5014:18 5015:3 5011:23,25 5012:20 5026:14 5019:11 5025:23 doses 4935:12 5028:18 5033:2,11 5029:11 5036:7 5037:17,24 doubt 4904:4 5037:25 5038:4,10 5003:4 5038:23,23 5045:24 doubts 4907:20 5048:15 5050:4,9 doukas 4800:3 5050:15 5060:4 5061:5,9,9 5062:2,5 5062:11 5063:2,4,6 5063:11,18,24 5064:20 5065:7,9 5065:11,24 5066:1 5066:2,4,19,22,23 5070:5,8 5071:1,2 5074:10 5079:23,25 5080:2,6 5082:4 5090:8,9 5094:2 5095:4 5097:1 5111:24 5112:3 5114:6 5115:17 5117:7,12,17,24,25 5118:1,15,16 5119:24 5120:2,3,7 5120:8,9,9 5122:17 5122:20 5126:13,14 5126:17,19 draw 4806:2,3,4 4814:22 4909:6 drawing 4817:20 dri 5091:3,7,12,15 5091:20 driven 4892:10 5115:5 drops 5012:25 drs 5024:20 5083:9 dry 5074:13 drywall 5002:11 due 5096:22 5098:14 duh 4911:24 duke 4843:9 4861:19 4862:18 4873:19,22 4874:9 4876:17,18 4877:1 4877:1 4901:21,22 4976:11 duly 4839:2 dunst 4800:3,3 4803:1,2 4838:11 4838:12 4886:11 4990:9,14,17,22 4991:1,4 4992:1 4993:2 5036:2,5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [dunst - equivalent] 5037:23 5101:6 5102:22 5103:11,19 5130:10,16,19 durability 5052:13 durham 4839:13 4876:19 4901:18 5027:9 dust 4845:25 4933:16 4935:11 5032:23 dusts 4845:12,12 4846:19 duties 4873:22 e e 4798:12,12 4799:1 4799:1,14 4800:1,1 4801:1,7 4832:24 5062:22 eagleman 4803:9 earlier 4817:15 4867:23 4873:25 4875:19 4911:3 4935:24 4937:3 4939:15,25 4950:10 4964:12 4975:24 4987:22 5003:21 5012:12 5017:5 5021:7 5025:19 5054:14 5056:3 5061:9 5066:5,12 5068:16 5071:16 5085:10 5092:17,18 5095:18 5097:7 5130:1 early 4901:2 4941:25 5107:8 earn 5093:7 ears 4912:3 easier 4804:9 4956:10 easily 4945:13,14,15 east 4799:10 easy 4852:11 4860:21 4861:9 Page 21 eat 4933:17 eaten 4933:21 eating 4933:19 economical 4804:10 edenite 4881:22,25 4980:20,24 edit 4808:22 edition 4866:11,12 4866:14,17 4867:8 4867:10,11,15 4870:20 4887:8 editions 4870:12 editor 4972:5 5033:9 5034:15 editorials 4972:6 education 4840:24 4975:10 educational 4839:21 effect 4873:4 4882:18 4921:8 4934:16 effects 4869:24 4883:1 5089:24 5090:4,6 efficiency 4805:5,17 effusions 5033:5,19 eighteen 4819:18,24 4819:25 eighty 4955:24 either 4820:14 4843:22 4850:17 4856:5 4865:4 4898:6 4914:5 4922:18 4928:8 4965:10,22 4972:8 4992:14 5036:23 5094:19 5122:9 5124:10 electron 4858:13,19 4859:9 4860:12,13 4864:18 4896:18 4902:11,14 4910:9 4910:15 5056:15 5060:5,6,10 5084:5 elemental 4858:21 4870:16 elevated 4880:20 4893:1 4900:16 4901:25 4919:21,25 4936:10 4941:17 4969:22 5025:8 5026:25 5080:16 elevations 5032:20 elias 4822:6 elicit 4992:6 eliciting 4970:17 elmo 5072:23 eloquent 4826:13 else's 5088:21 embarrassed 5098:12 embedded 4857:16 4943:1 emblem 4840:9 emergencies 5096:23 emphasis 5119:21 5120:4,10 employed 4906:5,5 4918:4 4952:1 5022:4 employment 4843:9 4951:25 enable 4943:18 enclosed 5004:19,22 ended 4841:8 4905:18 ends 4816:12 4916:7 4921:9 4934:13 5087:15 engagement 4931:2 engineer 4805:8 4810:6,18 4811:24 4820:13 4965:25 5124:5,7 5125:2 engineering 4840:1 4840:23 enlarged 4849:22 ensure 4842:6 entail 4906:18 enter 4869:23 entered 4826:15 4878:17 enters 4837:6 4887:2 4974:5 5059:6 entire 4814:11 4816:8 4864:1 4928:21 5048:6 5107:5 5119:25 entirely 4921:18 entirety 5047:24 entitled 4798:16 4960:23 5130:5 entry 4999:20,23 envelopes 5098:21 environment 4911:13 5018:15 environmental 4840:1,22 4908:2 4912:12 4975:23 4979:2 5033:14 5062:20 environments 4884:25 epa 4910:4,17 4945:12 4961:7 5071:12 5078:1,2,6 epidemiologic 5055:10 epidemiological 4855:19 4856:1,6 4856:14,17,21 4883:1 4894:22 4963:18 4969:4,9 4969:12 5089:9 equally 4826:19 4993:6 equipment 4807:17 4810:17 4901:13,15 4902:2,7 equivalent 4989:6 5084:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [ercilyn - expert] ercilyn 4822:3 erionite 4881:21,23 4980:19 erratically 4924:17 4934:19 error 4922:14 5090:7 es 4829:4 escalator 4934:7 escape 5052:22 especially 4842:22 4845:11 4846:24 4870:19 4874:22 4956:6 5046:6 5078:8 esq 4799:3,4,9,14 4800:3,4 esquire 4799:18 esse 5117:11,21 5118:19 5119:18 essentially 4915:12 4990:18 5055:8 5114:4 establish 4884:6 4964:22 established 4910:4 estate 4798:5 4802:6 4837:15 estimate 4859:4 4876:5 5054:13 estimated 5026:2 5071:1,2 estimates 5056:3 5074:6 estron 4832:25 et 4798:8 4802:8 4816:10 4837:16 etiology 4982:1,11 4992:25 evaluating 5003:11 evaluation 5084:6 evening 5128:12 event 4989:20 5028:17 5071:8 5080:9 5092:12 Page 22 eventually 4895:18 4895:19 4912:18 4913:5 5117:7 everybody 4832:8 4838:6 4857:5 4935:24 4997:13 5125:20 5129:3 evidence 4826:15 4831:19 4883:14 4936:4 4941:15 4951:19 4964:17 4980:15,20 4981:2 5008:6,10 5009:15 5017:10 5088:22 5128:20 exact 5121:3 exactly 4844:16 5011:18 5021:9,12 5024:25 5033:8 5091:10 5126:13,17 exam 4842:17 5100:1,14 5101:7 5103:8 5122:23 examination 4822:16,19,20,25 4823:5 4836:20 4839:5 4842:13,15 4843:1 4906:21 4907:18 4942:5 4973:18 4974:12,14 4991:13,16 4992:4 4992:12 4993:1,6 5037:1,12,14 5039:10 5045:15 5047:8 5058:2 5080:10 5108:11,15 5117:15 5121:12,14 5121:23 examine 4822:19 4929:8 4966:9 4991:17 5039:12 5107:23 5108:13,20 5109:7 5113:14 5114:17 5123:8 5125:10 5127:19 examined 4859:25 4860:18 4861:13 4938:22 4940:2 4953:13 5068:3 5070:21 5110:8 5124:23 examiner 4842:25 examining 4844:4 example 4817:17 4843:1,23 4852:4 4854:24 4869:5 4910:23 4924:7 4932:16 4938:5 4940:18 4949:15 4951:17 4972:25 5010:20 5129:6 examples 4818:2 exceed 4993:20 exceeding 4993:16 exceeds 4961:5 5057:21,25 exception 5129:7 5130:6 exchange 4913:20 4933:14 exchanged 5106:18 5106:23 exclude 5080:17 5113:18,20 5118:3 exclusively 4978:18 5009:12 excuse 5100:22 excused 5095:10,12 5095:14 executrix 4798:4,4 exhibit 4811:8 4816:3 4825:2 4926:7 4927:1,18 4937:23 4939:13 4940:6 4948:17,18 4949:6 4951:17 4963:3,11 4966:15 4981:12 4984:3 5000:18 5011:11 5019:12 5024:24 5029:16 5030:4 5083:5 5088:18 exhibits 4816:5,17 4818:13 5128:19 5129:1,3,18 exist 4881:3 expand 4852:22 expect 4813:3 4860:5,5 4900:17 4920:23 4962:6 4972:22 4973:1 5002:18 5005:16 5097:10 expected 4979:13 5096:21,25 5097:3 experience 4863:18 4879:16 4884:16 4885:3,7 4938:15 4950:12 4959:13 5046:9 5120:13 experienced 5044:25 experiment 4891:15 4891:19,22 4899:4 4908:20 experimental 4868:15 4893:23 5089:9 expert 4803:5 4805:2 4808:6 4809:20 4810:3,4 4810:24 4811:17 4812:12 4823:21 4824:6 4825:9 4826:20 4827:11 4855:24 4884:7 4886:6,13 4960:3 4960:14,16,21 4964:19 4970:17 4975:6,22 4979:2 5003:10 5012:1 5019:17 5037:1 5044:3,21 5054:3 5058:4 5063:2,6,11 5063:25 5064:7,11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [expert - feathers] 5064:21 5115:4 5118:3 expert's 4834:1 expertise 4843:4 4852:2 4961:6 4970:19 5005:16 experts 4826:14 4832:8,8 4848:15 4961:3,3 5118:15 5120:14,17 explain 4883:6 5106:5 explaining 4813:24 explains 4804:7 explanation 4816:16 4940:11 explanations 4940:15 explore 4845:19 4889:19 4890:9,13 4890:15 4992:21 5045:22 5046:1,5 exploring 4993:6 5037:22 exposed 4846:5 4862:4 4867:20 4869:18 4932:24 4951:12,25 4956:23 4957:1 4958:22 4960:10 4976:22 4996:7,9,13,18 5002:24 5003:6 5008:2 5015:16,24 5017:17 5018:15 5020:5,22,25 5026:11,13,19 5027:17 5028:19 5031:11 5035:16,23 5040:21 5056:22 5083:21 5091:25 exposure 4804:18 4846:2,18 4862:4 4878:16,17 4879:6 4880:10,17,22 4885:24 4895:12 Page 23 4896:2,11 4898:13 4899:9,10,16,24 4900:2 4903:7,16 4903:20 4904:1,5 4911:16 4926:4,5 4927:24 4928:7,11 4932:24 4936:4 4938:2 4941:11 4948:7,9,10 4956:3 4956:21 4957:1,5 4957:10,16,18,22,25 4958:12,20,23 4959:3,15 4960:4 4962:13 4964:3 4965:3 4966:23 4967:1,16 4968:4,9 4969:5,10,16,18 4978:20 4980:1 4981:2 4984:18,21 4986:13 4990:3 4991:5 4992:15 4994:9,23 4997:3,9 4998:3 5000:4 5002:14 5003:11 5015:13 5018:12 5023:19 5024:2,15 5028:6,24 5029:12 5029:21 5030:21 5031:8 5032:14 5034:10 5035:11 5040:5,11,16 5045:5 5047:22 5062:18 5079:3,6,7 5079:10 5080:8 5083:20 5089:4 exposures 4845:12 4846:1 4855:2 4880:1 4885:8,13 4941:15 4951:24 4962:15 4967:3 4983:4,20 4996:21 4996:23 4999:17 5007:18 5027:22 5032:23 5040:9 5062:20 extended 5111:4,17 extending 5111:18 5112:10,14 extent 4904:18 4936:18 4985:15 4989:10 5028:5 extinguished 5067:15 extracting 4910:19 extrapolate 5076:6 exxon 4965:4,18 4966:2 eye 4987:1 eyewitness 4830:22 4831:4 f f 4798:12 facility 5030:25 5047:16 fact 4805:15 4810:24 4811:20,23 4818:19,25 4824:5 4826:19,21 4831:3 4856:10 4877:23 4909:13 4940:8 4958:14,15,16 4962:18 4965:4 4969:18 4977:23 4991:11 4992:22 4995:14 4996:6,12 4996:20 5004:6 5010:9 5020:7 5033:2 5034:14 5037:25 5045:3 5055:5 5058:2,6 5059:21 5062:16 5065:22,24 5066:1 5071:1 5074:20 5081:12 5086:20 5091:6 5110:3 5113:10 factor 4890:7 4892:16 4893:16,18 4894:8 4899:6 4900:21 4908:5 4913:25 4932:13 4959:8 4985:13 4991:7,11 5017:25 5023:20 5024:16 5035:13,25 5036:10 5036:20 5040:13 5045:1 5047:11 5080:17 factors 4883:2 4894:24 5010:14 5038:1,2,25 factory 5046:12 factual 4812:12 failed 5080:15 fair 4822:18 4823:1 4830:24 4831:6 4967:8,8 4993:1 5017:21 5023:23 5094:2 5126:12 fairly 4813:10 fall 5077:1 familiar 4884:16,19 4884:23 4885:11,15 4891:11,14 4897:15 4898:15 4934:25 4963:1 5005:8 5010:18,19 5011:12 5011:14 5065:16 5087:25 far 4831:24 4880:13 4880:14 4902:2 4905:2 5000:5 5008:20 5029:5 5043:13 5076:17 5111:19 fashion 5097:17 fast 4921:19 4922:1 faster 4804:9 fault 4896:7 5114:24 feasibility 4836:9 feathers 4924:8,10 4924:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [features - 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frame] Page 25 5018:16 5079:21 5080:16 5082:5 5084:23 5085:2 5087:2 5103:24 finding 4863:25 4919:24 4927:23 4937:13 4938:15 4939:1,4,6 4940:7,9 4940:10 4941:17 4962:18 4969:20 5026:25 5032:19 5060:7 5083:22 findings 4901:23 4913:5 4925:13 4941:7 4942:4 5042:23 finds 4929:9 fine 4819:23 4936:16 5058:19 5064:11 5099:2 5111:6 5127:24 fingerprint 4843:4 4858:22 4860:5 4870:17 finish 5058:15 5097:4 5101:19 5105:11 finished 4838:19 4841:12 4865:16,17 4878:22 5105:14 5106:2,19 finishing 4971:8 finland 4871:17 firm 4999:2 first 4805:19 4806:17,22 4807:5 4815:6,8 4821:8 4831:9 4844:21 4849:11,15 4850:12 4860:3 4862:17 4865:11 4866:1,11 4867:8,12,17 4869:5,6,7 4873:2 4873:16 4880:6 4887:25 4888:4,5 4890:18 4895:10 4901:1 4903:4 4908:19 4913:14,16 4915:3 4918:12 4920:3 4938:21 4939:23 4948:10 4974:9,18 4988:14 4999:1,19 5001:2 5001:10 5004:5 5017:22 5020:1,19 5023:5 5031:3 5035:1 5042:11,23 5059:18 5070:9,21 5071:3 5076:1 5118:23 first's 4826:21 firsthand 4805:10 4831:4 fit 4879:23 4909:10 4949:11,12 4950:23 4958:16 5112:5 five 4820:6,7 4866:9 4876:11 4918:23 4955:1 4983:20 5080:14 5081:16 5084:8 5110:1 fix 5056:8 flat 5093:1 flavors 4934:24 4965:5,7 floor 5022:8 5077:1 flow 4913:24 4923:22 4934:18 fluid 4843:25 4844:1 fluids 4911:13 5010:25 5011:4 fluoro 4881:22,25 4980:20,24 focus 4830:18 4858:18 4860:12 5110:18,20 5120:1 5120:14,17 focused 4846:6 4871:10 4922:6 5041:8 foil 5067:16 folded 4819:2 follow 4835:3,5 4861:1,10 4924:22 4925:6 5016:7 5077:9 followed 4812:5 4955:11 following 4802:1 4815:11 4837:7 4887:3 4925:9 4974:6 5059:7 follows 4839:3 5018:17 5045:14 5068:3 forbidden 4939:11 5006:21 foregoing 5132:5 foreign 4933:12 forensic 4842:21 4875:9 forgot 4983:3 forgotten 4948:11 form 4852:17 4858:13 4878:5 4906:10 4964:24 5005:18 5052:7 5053:1 5055:19 formal 4856:16 formation 5043:1 5048:20 5049:15 formed 4811:22 4851:2 4899:5 4959:21 former 5080:15 5088:20 forms 5045:16 forth 4831:16 4841:5 4879:18 4901:14 4930:24 4945:21 5102:18 5106:13,21 5132:7 forward 4922:7 fought 4831:24 found 4862:13 4879:9,22 4880:6 4880:18 4884:24 4895:12,13 4901:24 4903:8 4904:23 4929:4 4936:23 4937:10,13,15 4938:17,19 4940:5 4949:10 4957:8 4962:11,22 4965:6 4965:15 4966:21 4967:3 4968:23 4996:13 5018:13,13 5025:7,8,15 5028:24 5035:2 5040:25 5043:4 5048:25 5049:25 5050:1,19,22 5072:12 5073:3 5080:2 5082:16,23 5083:12,15 5084:21 5084:24 5085:3,4 5085:19,20 5086:3 5086:23 5126:19 foundation 4813:10 4814:19 4826:11 foundational 4808:5 4817:13 4818:16 four 4813:14 4842:10 4872:7,8 4880:24 4887:20 4892:22 4900:1,25 4903:7,15 4906:12 4918:23 4920:25 4928:3,11 4960:9 4998:7 fourteen 4938:11 5089:15 fourth 4867:24 fraction 4915:5 4916:1 4922:2 frame 4807:6 4812:2 4889:22 4890:2 5118:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [frankly - 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look] Page 33 license 4841:21 5132:12 licensed 4841:15 licenses 4841:4,17 life 4915:22 4920:9 4920:18,25 4921:7 4922:7,18 5074:12 lifetime 4900:12 4928:8 light 4858:7,11,11 4858:15,16 4859:7 4896:17 lighting 5067:13 likelihood 5015:9,20 liking 5121:14 limb 4851:12 limit 5058:6 limited 4871:10 4879:25 5090:2 limpet 4940:25 4946:15 linda 4798:17 5132:3,11 line 4803:20 4807:10 4808:1 4811:8 4816:2 4817:19 4818:12 4819:17 4820:21,23 4821:8 4822:13 4823:18 4825:19,20 4833:5,6 4835:11 4835:12 4913:23 4923:21 4924:9 5016:5 5058:23 5075:11,17 5095:6 5095:7 5106:3 lines 4808:18,19,20 4816:2 4817:22 4819:14 4822:11 4823:18 4824:19,24 4829:17 4854:22 4914:2 5055:1 lining 4847:7,13,19 4849:20 4921:22 4934:7,18 4986:3,6 liquid 5069:4 liquids 4953:5 list 4954:3,5,15 4955:2,18,22 4971:24 listed 4868:24 4954:5,18 4971:20 5042:15,17 lists 5013:22 literally 4843:20 literature 4865:2,5 4869:7 4877:9 4879:1 4884:12 4895:17 4902:23 4903:2 4913:4,6 4924:25 4925:17 4960:25 4972:13 4995:7 5089:23 5091:17 litigation 4887:19 4887:24 4888:1,9 4930:7,11 4988:10 5005:15 5094:5 5110:17 5115:5 5117:25 5123:11 little 4839:18 4845:14 4851:9 4853:15 4861:4,6 4865:8 4875:18 4895:23 4910:1 4934:12 4937:3 4975:9 4997:6 5000:13 5007:22 5058:18 5093:20 5104:18 live 4822:17 4838:21 4839:11,13 4881:14 5097:2 5105:6 5109:18 5111:6 5114:13 5125:17 5127:17 lived 4949:15 lives 4921:1,2 5111:2 living 4839:14 4863:9 llp 4799:3,13,17 4800:3 loaded 4877:20 localized 4956:4 located 5001:6 lockhart 5102:19 long 4799:4 4802:11 4802:12 4837:18,19 4862:4,18 4872:17 4874:8 4882:2,4,12 4892:6,23 4914:1 4916:2 4932:3,17 4941:21 4944:12,17 4946:3 4958:18 5003:15 5052:15,19 5089:2 5092:3,4 5100:2 5101:19 5107:4,8 5111:9 5112:17,22,24 5113:10 5114:9 5115:15,24 5118:20 5118:24 5119:2,8 5120:6 5122:21 5125:13,14 longer 5096:21 5104:19 longitudinal 4856:18 longo 4800:3 4807:23 4808:2,10 4811:5,9 4886:3 4891:3,8 4892:10 4892:18 4893:2 4904:10,11 4906:4 4917:10,16 4918:2 4919:16,23 4925:18 4925:23,25 4927:17 4928:2,19,20,24 4929:3 4931:19 4959:17,19,22 4960:5,22 4961:7 4970:4 5046:20 5050:9 5057:15,22 5062:2,11,22 5063:4,5,11,18,20 5063:24,25 5064:4 5064:20 5065:7,9 5065:11 5066:2,22 5066:23 5070:5,8 5071:2 5079:24,25 5080:2 5082:4 5092:4 5095:5 5106:12,15 5108:18 5110:12 5111:25 5112:3,9 5113:12 5113:19 5115:3 5117:7,12,17,24 5118:1,17 5119:2 5119:13,24 5120:2 5120:3 5122:17 5123:10,13,14 5124:11 5125:23 5126:19 longo's 4906:11 4907:4 4914:16 4916:15,22,23,25 4917:19 4918:9 4926:17 4927:12 4960:24 4970:1 5050:5 5061:5 5062:5 5066:4 5074:10 5115:17 5122:20 look 4811:2 4827:10 4844:11 4847:2 4848:21,22 4853:15 4854:12 4857:12,16 4857:17 4858:5,6 4858:14 4860:11,22 4863:21 4864:3 4878:6,8 4879:8 4910:8,15 4912:14 4943:9 4976:19 4977:9 4978:9 4981:13,16 4983:18 4996:16,22 5000:23 5002:6,8,21 5003:10,18,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [look - macrophage's] 5012:3 5014:14 5016:4 5023:17 5028:14 5030:10 5040:8,10 5052:1 5061:21,23,24,25 5062:1,1 5073:25 5075:9,13,19 5081:3 5085:14,23 5088:3,18 5089:1,7 5120:21 5124:10 5125:21 5127:22,24 5128:6 looked 4807:24 4856:20 4859:9 4860:19 4919:25 4938:21 4946:25 4947:1,3 4951:6 4955:6 4967:6,6 5009:7 5025:10 5049:17,20 5050:20 5050:23,25 5083:9 5083:10 5084:20 5085:7,8 5090:9 5121:6 5125:4 5126:3 looking 4811:9 4826:7 4843:22 4844:17,20 4846:15 4846:21 4848:2 4849:21 4852:6 4858:24 4859:23 4863:19 4881:10,19 4896:17 4897:8 4910:4 4912:18 4920:22 4938:23 4976:12 4977:6,19 4978:17 4979:13 4995:6,19 5018:7 5061:22 5074:18,21 5074:22 5075:14 5076:13 looks 4852:11 4868:12 4943:6 5073:12 5125:14 Page 34 lorillard 4799:12,20 4802:15,17 4803:6 4809:24 4810:15,18 4822:14 4823:25 4824:5 4826:14 4827:6,17,18 4828:2,7 4831:11 4831:14,17,20 4832:1 4837:22,25 4838:23 4889:9,13 4901:3,7,11 4913:1 4927:1,17 4929:15 4929:21 4937:22 4939:14 4951:17 4982:20 4997:7 5027:4 5037:2,14 5044:23,25 5045:18 5054:3 5080:11 5109:12 5124:2 lose 5102:7 lot 4807:22 4842:24 4848:5,25 4881:20 4925:11 4989:7,14 4989:15 5047:11 5119:12 lots 4867:4 4877:24 4877:24 4989:8,9 4989:10 louis 4839:8 low 5026:7,18 lower 4908:15 4912:1 4913:18 4915:1,6,13 4932:1 5057:1 lowest 4956:25 loyal 4820:15,22 4823:25 4827:17 5109:12 loyalty 4820:13,24 ltc 4801:9,9 4926:24 4937:21 4949:5 4994:22 lucky 5101:5 lunch 4973:16 4974:4 lung 4831:21 4832:2 4832:9 4845:10,21 4846:1,1,5,7,10 4847:7,12,13,19 4848:12,22 4854:16 4854:17,18 4857:3 4857:12,13,15,23 4859:2 4867:2 4868:7 4870:19 4880:18 4882:21,24 4883:2 4886:7,13 4892:1 4893:13 4895:25 4896:16,20 4896:25 4897:1,1,2 4897:3,10,19 4900:13,16,17,18 4901:25 4908:10,11 4911:12,12,13,15 4913:13,15,19 4914:3 4915:24 4916:8 4918:19 4919:9,21 4920:1 4922:1 4923:5 4924:6,19 4925:14 4926:3 4928:10 4933:4,8,11,12,13 4933:24 4934:9 4935:25 4936:23 4938:12,24 4940:1 4941:12,18,21 4943:14,17,24 4959:14 4960:9 4962:6,12 4964:13 4965:6 4967:3,6 4977:8 4986:3 4987:5 4996:22,24 4997:11 5017:19,24 5018:2 5020:14 5021:2 5027:1,11 5027:12,13 5041:12 5041:14,19 5049:21 5054:15 5062:19 5069:7 5074:6,13 5074:16,18,20,22 5075:12,13,15 5076:4,8,18 5077:15 5083:9,13 5084:15,20 5085:7 5085:12 5086:7 5087:3,5,9 lungs 4846:13 4857:6 4859:3 4862:9 4891:6 4892:6,7,24 4894:3 4895:14 4903:9 4915:3 4918:25 4920:24 4921:14,18 4922:3 4923:23 4932:16,19 4936:11 4966:21 4996:17 5025:15 5041:6 5072:1 5074:21 5077:4 5078:20 5081:25 5086:9,14 5086:17 5087:1 lymph 4921:15 4934:5 4966:13 5085:8,10,14,20,23 5086:2,6,8,24,25 5087:3,9 lymphatics 4921:15 4934:5 5086:8,17 5086:21 5087:9 m m 4798:17 5132:3 5132:11 m.d. 4841:2,13 m.d.s 4843:3 m.s. 4803:16 machine 4805:9 4810:9,11,16 4811:25 4812:11 4813:24 5022:6 5124:4 5125:3 macrophage 4933:10,23 4934:1 4934:2,4 macrophage's 4933:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [macrophages - mean] macrophages 4933:8 magnified 5073:17 magnitude 4908:4 maimon 4799:3 4801:4 4802:12 4803:20 4804:24 4805:12,15 4806:6 4806:12,20 4807:3 4807:16 4808:13,18 4808:20 4809:1,16 4809:20 4812:15 4813:2,6,20 4814:1 4814:8,11,14 4815:3,6 4817:9 4818:6,10 4819:7 4819:11,14,18 4820:4,6,8,11 4821:17,20 4822:15 4823:3,23 4824:10 4824:22 4825:4,6 4825:16,18 4826:12 4827:16 4829:12,14 4829:19,25 4831:9 4833:13,17 4834:4 4835:23 4836:5,22 4837:19 4838:15 4886:10 4892:12 4897:13,24 4901:9 4904:14,17 4905:4 4905:12,16 4909:3 4916:17,20 4917:15 4927:13 4928:13,16 4929:18 4959:24 4960:2 4961:8 4964:5,10 4965:7 4965:21 4966:2,4 4966:18 4970:10,13 4974:12,13,14 4981:7,9,21 4990:20,24 4991:17 4992:11 4994:3 5019:2,8 5021:11 5036:25 5038:6,17 5043:20,24 5044:1 Page 35 5044:15 5045:13 5047:7 5048:7,11 5048:13 5058:1,17 5059:10,12 5063:9 5064:15,22,25 5065:9 5074:3 5094:11,18,22 5095:6 5101:8,11 5101:25 5102:2,10 5102:13 5103:10 5105:10,14,19 5116:2 5117:6,19 5118:25 5120:25 5121:20 5122:4 5128:14,17,23 5129:4,17,25 5130:13,18,21 main 4877:17,21 4878:10 4890:25 4932:14 4937:14 4945:6,8,8 4949:4 5126:18 maintained 4879:18 5008:17 maintenance 4902:17,17 4950:24 4951:4 4954:14,18 4955:12,16,17,21 4958:15 5001:4,20 5001:23 major 5122:20 majority 4880:7,11 4880:21 4953:8 4956:5 4999:5 making 4810:17 4826:13 4827:22 4836:9,13,14 4847:25 4850:19 4890:4 4891:1,3 5031:1 5074:5 5122:7,16 malignancy 4849:23 malignant 4849:16 4870:25 4871:2 4894:10 4938:2 4947:19 4979:8 4985:24 5032:24 man 4813:23 4820:12 4828:3 4933:10 5108:6 managed 4805:4,21 4806:23 manipulated 5067:8 manner 4809:24 manufacture 4820:23 manufactured 4807:25 4811:21 manufacturers 4810:16 5031:10 manufacturing 4810:20 4814:5,12 4815:25 4816:8 4817:15 4820:25 4836:8 5045:5,10 5046:13 5047:13,16 manuscript 5091:7 5091:15 march 4901:22 marching 4840:11 margaret 5011:23 marked 4801:9,9,10 4801:10,11,11,12,12 4801:13,13,14,14,15 4801:15 4835:9 4926:12,21,22,24,25 4927:1 4937:21 4939:13 4981:10,11 4984:2 5000:16,17 5011:9,10 5019:10 5019:12 5024:23 5029:14,16 5030:6 5030:8 5033:7 5075:2 5080:24 5088:5,6 marker 4956:2 market 4836:7 4894:17 4928:4 5055:13 marketing 4820:14 mask 5005:2 5015:19,24 5016:21 mass 4812:6 master 4817:18,25 match 4860:17 material 4810:15 4816:12 4819:1 4858:10 4888:20 4910:13 4924:16 4933:12 4945:14 4946:13,14 4952:23 4982:16 5000:21 5008:7 5009:4 5022:7 5054:5 5063:3,7,11,25 5064:8,9 5069:14 materials 4885:22 4886:1 4947:1,3,15 4948:3 4952:21 4953:13 4980:19,21 5009:21 5010:23 5065:13 5068:24 5110:13 5118:18,21 5120:3 math 5072:13 matrix 4857:15 matter 4798:16 4802:5 4803:16 4820:14 4824:6 4855:21 4938:22 4977:24 4997:10 5077:16 5103:1 5107:23 5108:20 matters 5098:24 maximum 5071:24 mccombs 4799:9 mean 4806:17 4814:9 4857:8 4900:10 4902:2,3,5 4902:9 4905:8 4907:2 4919:7 4924:22 4933:3 4945:9 4962:14,20 4971:25 4993:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [mean - mesotheliomas] 4995:6 4996:9 5004:2 5020:10 5045:12 5046:16,16 5052:15 5073:7 5084:14 5086:21 5098:6 5102:4,11 5102:13,14 5103:2 5110:14 5112:4 5125:6,15 means 4820:15 4821:10,11 4839:19 4843:20 4900:15 4915:20 4919:8 4924:23 4945:14 4969:22 5037:19 5061:2 meant 5017:7 5105:22 measurement 5090:1 mechanic 5022:7 mechanics 5091:24 mechanism 4922:4 5034:18 5089:25 mechanisms 4856:11 4882:20 medical 4841:12 4842:25 4843:13 4855:22 4863:15 4865:14,15 4869:11 4874:1,6 4877:8 4879:1 4884:1,11 4885:18 4897:15 4901:19 4902:23 4913:3 4925:17 4946:24 4947:13 4951:6,9 4956:13 4960:23 4972:13,20 4979:14,19 4994:22 4997:20 5014:17 5036:8 5038:3 5039:1 5041:19 medicine 4841:1 4842:11,21 4870:13 4874:25 4975:16,17 Page 36 4975:23 4979:3 5091:19 medicolegal 4866:5 meet 4828:3 4853:16 4872:13,14 5099:13 meeting 4853:18 4871:19 member 4841:3 4843:6 4850:25 4852:23 4853:25 4854:4 4875:2,21 4886:21 4936:17 4973:23 4978:8 5059:1 5099:12 members 4838:16 4850:22 4851:10 4852:16 4853:4,5 4871:4 4874:23,24 4874:25,25 4949:8 4975:5 4978:8 5058:21 5095:1 5096:15 memo 4826:2,6 4827:5 4829:3 memory 4983:13 men 4880:7,8,15,19 4883:11 4950:7 mendoza 4799:8 mention 4903:5 4977:7 4983:3 5001:3 5052:6 5059:18 mentioned 4843:18 4850:1 4852:23 4853:1 4854:20 4861:25 4864:17 4867:22 4868:5 4871:5 4873:25 4874:16 4876:10 4887:7,12 4899:20 4902:14 4903:6,24 4918:12 4930:3 4934:12 4935:24 4936:13 4946:14 4948:11 4952:22 4953:25 4955:8 4975:9 4976:8 4980:3,18 4988:13 4997:21 4998:13 5009:11 5017:5 5025:19 5037:3,5 5051:19 5085:10 5087:18 5092:17,18 mentioning 4952:11 mentors 4866:2,10 4867:9 meso 4936:25 mesothelioma 4832:10 4834:2 4847:19,23 4848:3 4848:6,8,11,16 4849:14,17 4850:3 4850:13,15,17,22 4851:4,5 4852:7 4853:13,14,20 4854:11 4856:14 4868:2 4870:25 4871:2,4 4874:13 4874:17 4875:18 4876:5,12 4877:6 4877:18 4878:7,15 4879:5,14 4880:16 4880:20 4881:1,9 4881:16,24 4882:8 4882:13,14,18 4883:5 4885:4,9 4890:7,25 4891:21 4892:17 4893:8,18 4894:6,8,11,14 4895:2 4897:1 4899:7 4900:19 4903:12,14,23 4904:6 4911:10 4921:4 4922:25 4925:24 4927:6,20 4930:1 4931:23 4935:5,12,15,21 4937:10 4938:2,24 4939:14 4947:20 4949:2,25 4950:9 4950:16 4954:19,20 4955:10 4957:4,9 4957:14 4958:2,11 4959:4 4962:2,24 4966:21 4968:8 4969:5 4976:6,9,11 4976:15,23 4977:5 4978:10,13,16,20,21 4979:8,10,15,23,25 4980:4,12,16,22 4981:3 4982:1,12 4984:12,17,22 4985:17,25 4986:2 4986:5,10,15 4987:2,9,15 4988:14 4990:4 4992:17,25 4997:4 4997:15 4998:4 5002:2,14,19 5003:23 5004:2 5007:18 5015:3 5017:1 5019:19 5020:2 5024:4,11 5024:20 5025:15 5026:11,19 5027:1 5028:20 5029:9 5031:16,18 5032:5 5032:21,24 5035:13 5035:23 5036:1,10 5039:24 5040:1,3 5041:1,3,25 5042:16,24 5044:25 5045:2,4,8 5048:17 5049:12 5050:11 5052:3,8 5053:2 5054:24 5055:11,12 5055:20 5058:9 5059:22 5079:12,17 5080:15 5081:20,21 5082:8 5086:18 5087:16,20 5088:23 5090:11 5092:5 mesotheliomas 4854:6 4876:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [mesotheliomas - motion] 4879:19 4880:2,12 4880:14 4883:11,12 4883:16 4939:19 4954:6,7 4962:5 4969:21 messed 5114:23 met 4862:19 4871:6 4871:16,21 4873:6 4873:16 4974:19 5097:16 metastasize 4848:5 method 4907:14,19 4907:21,23 4909:23 4909:23,25 4910:6 4910:11 4911:1,2 4918:20 5068:19,23 5069:8 5072:14 methodology 4906:4 4906:9,11,16 4907:7,8,23 4908:9 4908:18 4909:9,20 4910:3 4913:11 4914:16 4918:4,20 4919:15 michael 4798:5 4802:7 4837:15 4982:2,2 micrographs 5060:5 5060:6,11 micron 5072:20 micronite 4810:21 4927:25 4928:12 4960:10 4995:9 5051:8 microns 4913:21 4914:1,5 4932:11 4932:12,17,18 4943:4 5056:16 5072:2,4,18,22 5087:19 5090:3 microprobe 4870:13 4870:21 microscope 4843:24 4844:12,18 4858:7 4858:11,12,15,16,25 4859:7,9 4860:12 4870:15 4881:20 4896:17,18,22 4898:23 4901:17,20 4902:11,13,14,16 4910:9,16 4943:6 5018:8 5052:22 microscopes 4901:14 microscopic 4875:8 5084:5 microscopy 4858:14 4864:18 4875:5 5056:15,19 microsoft 4863:5 mid 4798:2 4901:1 4914:12 4939:11 4946:7 middle 5108:24 5109:17 middlesex 4798:1 4798:19 migrate 4932:1 migration 4932:5 millette 5106:12 5110:12 5115:3 5117:25 5118:16 5120:2 5123:10 5125:23 milliliter 5067:19 milliliters 5067:14 millimeter 5068:12 millimeters 5068:4 5068:10 million 5074:10 5084:17 5093:21 mimic 4850:3 mind 4837:11 4850:12 4890:11,14 4952:4 4986:18 5076:12 5077:14 5092:9 5094:18,19 5098:1 5104:18 5126:18 Page 37 mine 4981:19,20 mined 5030:12 mineral 4845:12,13 4846:7 4857:23,24 4858:14 4860:22 4881:18 4898:23 4913:23 5030:13 5031:10 5062:19 minerals 4845:21 4846:4,11,15 4858:5 4859:22,25 4936:16 5030:19 miners 5031:9 5035:2 minimal 4842:16 minor 4829:16 minus 5067:13 minute 4849:1 4985:22 4994:14 4997:12 5058:22 5083:24 minutes 4886:19,25 5048:8 5068:6 miscomprehension 4916:24 misleading 4916:25 misplaced 4989:18 misremembering 4813:14 missed 4809:15 4819:11 missouri 4799:15 mistake 5017:7 misunderstand 5105:25 misunderstood 5105:21 mixed 4940:20 4952:12 mixing 4834:4 ml 5067:19 mmaimon 4799:6 model 5078:3,4 moderate 5032:22 modern 4966:13 modest 5032:20 moline 4926:13 4966:18,19 4979:1 5037:25 5038:23,23 5118:15 5120:8,9 5126:13 moline's 5037:17,24 moment 4806:9 4826:20 4829:7 4840:4 4911:24 4931:17 4947:22 4963:10 5094:24 5100:23 momentarily 4822:5 moments 4812:9 monday 4798:21 5065:4 money 5101:2 monitoring 5014:22 monograph 4853:22 4871:3,9 4872:17 4872:18 4873:9,10 month 4854:1,4 months 5103:7 5112:19 5125:12 moon 4952:9 moran 4800:3 morning 4802:3,11 4802:16,18,19,22 4803:1,4 4837:18 4837:19,23,24 4838:6,11,12 4839:1,6 4886:18 4975:5,24 4980:4 5021:7 5071:16 5095:5 5099:12 5105:3 5128:13 5130:9 5131:2 moshe 4799:3 4802:12 4837:19 motion 4924:13 5044:9,14 5045:12 5047:19 5113:22,23 5117:16 5127:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [motions - objection] motions 5118:2 mouth 5076:16 move 4864:6 4923:24 4924:17 5021:15,17 moved 4901:20 5113:18,20 5130:11 moves 4934:19 moving 5118:3 msa 4875:6 mucociliary 4934:6 mucus 4882:23 4921:21,25 4922:2 4934:7 mulberry 4799:10 multiple 4942:23 multiply 5084:16 multitude 4829:2 n n 4799:1 4800:1 4801:1 name 4803:9 4828:3 4839:7 4912:15 4948:12 5011:23 narrower 4882:22 nationally 5092:14 nature 4809:19 4812:25 4814:25 4858:21 4925:3 navy 5010:20 5028:13 near 4923:8 4995:25 necessarily 4939:3 necessary 4823:11 4856:5 5041:15 need 4825:5 4850:4 4856:9 4932:4 4943:13 4970:7 5081:5,6,16,17 5091:16 5094:20 5097:18 5099:23 5100:23 5107:2 5124:20 5129:16 Page 38 needed 5114:11 needs 4894:21 4931:22 nefarious 4967:5 negative 4999:15 neither 4888:2 neoplastic 4844:22 neutral 4999:15,16 never 4806:5 4833:19 4913:13 4929:25 4930:16 4957:12 4991:21 4998:11 4999:2 5002:18 5006:22 5036:19 5098:1,5 5104:15 5115:8 5118:3 5128:21 new 4798:1,18,20,20 4799:5,5,19 4800:5 4800:5 4804:8 4828:23,25 4862:24 4863:9,12 4871:13 4902:18 4910:15 4913:8 4914:17 4917:11 4919:1,16 4939:12 4989:5 5007:4 5022:5 5038:15,21 5104:6 5108:4 5111:10 5113:1 5120:2 5132:4 nice 4837:8,9 4840:9 4866:7 night 5100:18 5101:11 nine 5067:2 5102:14 niosh 4945:12 nj2334756 4798:25 node 5085:8,14,23 5086:2 nodes 4921:15 4934:6 4966:13 5085:11,20 5086:6 5086:24,25 5087:3 5087:10 non 4980:18 noncancerous 4844:22 noncommercial 4936:19 nonfriable 4945:16 4945:22 nonmalignant 5033:5,18 nonoccupational 4879:24 nonsmokers 4928:8 normal 4882:20 4922:4 5047:15 north 4839:13 4841:18,24,25 5107:13,18 5108:5 5108:10 5109:22 5127:18 nose 4914:6,6 notary 4798:18 note 4815:17 5089:19 notebooks 4837:10 4886:19 4973:19 5058:24 5098:20 5099:9 noted 4979:19 4990:6 5003:21 5084:1 notes 4798:15 notice 4829:2 4834:9,14,15 4836:11 5004:5,9 5048:3,4 5125:20 number 4842:9 4845:23 4849:6,23 4854:22 4855:12 4861:19,20,20,23,23 4872:18 4876:8 4879:25 4881:15 4888:16 4894:18 4901:24 4910:18 4918:19,21,22 4927:21 4938:18 4954:3 4955:1,11 4955:17,21 4962:23 4970:19,19 4972:6 5043:11 5045:11 5048:5 5057:6 5059:13 5075:1,23 5075:25 5076:1,3,7 5076:23 5082:14 5096:22 numbers 4856:20 4892:3,18,19 4910:22 4916:15,23 4917:16 4954:6,7 4976:9 5028:7 5056:6 5060:10 5071:11 5074:10 5076:2 5078:18 5111:23 o o 4798:12 4839:9 o'clock 4822:3 oath 4974:23 5044:4 object 4804:2 4806:15 4807:19 4818:6 4904:17 4964:14 4967:13 4970:20 4990:9 5018:20 5046:16 5057:18 5112:25 5129:19 objected 4812:22,23 4814:12 5036:15 5038:12 5039:4 5043:15 objecting 4815:18 5129:12 objection 4803:22 4804:22,25 4805:22 4806:25 4807:1 4808:16 4809:19 4813:1,3,19 4814:13,16 4815:1 4815:8,8,10 4820:10 4824:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [objection - okay] 4827:2,12 4829:17 4833:12 4835:21 4886:9,10,11 4892:12,13 4897:13 4897:24 4898:2,5 4901:9 4904:14 4909:3 4916:17,20 4927:13 4929:18 4959:24 4961:15,18 4964:5,9,10 4965:16,16 4966:5 4970:10 4971:4,16 5036:2,6,6 5039:15 5102:20 5103:12,13 5105:9 5107:4 5109:1,24 5110:2 5129:9,10 5130:2,2 objections 4803:15 4821:25 4833:8 5107:1 5124:18 5128:22,24 objective 4872:13 4941:15 observation 4939:23 observations 4903:13 4925:1 obsessive 4861:4 4875:13 obtained 4943:12 4977:6 obviously 4804:6 4830:19 4890:9,10 5102:4 5119:15 5127:18 occasion 4899:14 4978:24 5050:12 occasions 4978:5 occupants 5062:21 occupation 4948:21 4949:21 4951:11 4954:20 4955:9,13 occupational 4874:25 4878:6,11 4938:2 4956:21,25 4958:11 4962:14 Page 39 4964:24 4969:18 4975:22 4977:19 4978:1 4979:2 5028:3,6 5076:13 5078:22 5080:7 occupationally 5020:5 5027:17 occupations 4869:19 4879:24 4880:9 4937:20 4949:1,9,11 4953:24 4954:17,17 occur 4849:18 4879:19 4880:13 4883:9 4956:25 occurs 4847:12,13 4949:2 ocd 4861:6 ocf 5057:14 5060:19 5062:1 5066:13 october 4981:14,15 4981:16,17,19,20 4990:23 4991:2 5021:22,22,23,24 odors 5123:2 offer 4883:24 4886:6 5108:23 offered 4821:7 4826:21 4836:4 4963:12 5121:3 5129:6 offering 4822:18 4884:7 5065:20 office 4828:4 oftentimes 5072:8 oh 4812:23 4813:16 4828:25 4835:4 4910:17 4919:8 4963:14 4987:1 5014:13 5067:4 5100:13 5101:21,24 5109:4 5111:13 ohlemeyer 4817:12 4817:19 oil 4954:1,8,9 4955:1,6 4958:16 4988:18,21,21,24,25 okay 4803:12,18 4806:21 4807:4 4810:5 4811:7,14 4811:24 4816:17 4817:7 4818:11 4819:20 4820:2 4821:6,10,23 4823:15 4824:15,16 4825:7,24 4829:20 4833:7 4835:11,14 4836:3 4838:16 4839:11,19 4841:24 4843:8 4847:18,21 4848:14,18,25 4855:1,7 4859:2,18 4859:21 4860:21 4864:13,24 4865:21 4865:24 4868:23 4869:14,18 4870:7 4870:24 4878:6,24 4884:7 4886:12 4887:22 4888:7 4889:19 4890:13,18 4892:14 4893:6 4895:15 4896:20 4898:21 4899:4 4901:3,12 4905:13 4905:24 4906:7,13 4907:11 4914:20 4916:13 4920:12 4923:11 4926:23 4930:16 4931:17,20 4932:7 4935:14,19 4937:6 4941:21 4945:25 4946:23 4947:22 4950:19 4951:2,6 4952:25 4954:14 4956:12 4957:3 4960:19 4967:21,25 4968:1 4968:21 4971:3,10 4971:13 4975:9,14 4976:3 4977:13 4978:12 4979:10,18 4979:22 4980:3,25 4981:5,21,21,23 4982:10,14,25 4983:18,22,24,25 4984:3,10 4985:2 4985:14,19 4986:12 4986:18 4987:4,7 4987:11,18 4988:2 4988:8,13,23 4989:1 4990:2,6 4991:1,3 4992:2,10 4993:19 4994:13,14 4994:18,21 4995:1 4995:24 4996:6 4997:1,6,17 4998:1 4998:7,13,17,24 4999:23 5000:5,13 5000:14,23,25 5001:1,2,10,22 5002:1,12,21 5003:5,9,21,25 5004:3 5005:3 5006:5,9,13 5007:16,22 5008:1 5008:5,11,21 5009:7,11,15,20 5010:1,9,22 5011:3 5011:8 5012:3,14 5012:20 5013:3,6 5013:15,22 5014:10 5014:13,16 5015:14 5015:18,23 5016:4 5017:5,10,14 5019:16,21,24 5021:9,15 5022:3 5023:2,17 5024:14 5024:24 5025:5,10 5025:19 5026:15,23 5027:4,10,20 5028:16 5029:3,13 5029:25 5030:3,10 5031:3,25 5032:13 5033:24 5034:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [okay - outside] Page 40 5035:4,20 5039:19 5041:14,18,22 5042:11,14,20 5047:17 5048:7,15 5049:10,20,25 5051:19 5052:14,18 5052:21,25 5053:4 5053:12 5054:8 5055:2,5,9,15,18 5056:8,21,25 5057:8 5058:11,13 5058:19 5059:18,25 5060:13,18 5061:20 5062:4,10 5065:16 5067:1,5,25 5068:9 5068:15 5069:6,21 5070:4,8,17 5071:8 5072:3,7,11,16 5073:5 5074:16 5075:19 5076:2,10 5077:20 5078:7,18 5079:1,9,14 5080:23 5082:4,11 5082:18,22,25 5083:8,12,19,24 5084:8,20 5085:19 5086:6,16 5087:18 5087:22 5088:3,10 5089:18 5090:8 5092:9,12 5095:23 5096:1,9,12 5097:19 5098:2,8 5098:19 5099:3,11 5099:23 5100:3,9 5100:16,19,22,25 5102:1 5103:9,22 5103:23 5104:7,14 5104:22,24 5105:17 5106:17 5107:2,3 5109:25 5110:5 5113:8 5115:9 5116:4,13,16,19 5122:14 5127:10,13 5128:7,14 5130:8 5130:22 old 4807:19 4835:7 4835:13,24 4863:1 4878:4 4906:23 4909:15,16 4918:4 4938:9,10,11 5006:23 5112:21 5116:20 5125:11 once 4842:12 4856:4 4858:3 4860:9 4893:12 4919:1 4923:6 5041:24 5077:10 5091:15 5109:3 5114:10,19 5114:21 5115:10 oncologist 4975:21 ones 4856:18 4880:8 4880:13,13 4932:10 4932:12 4935:6 4936:17,24 4971:20 5012:11 5046:6 5086:23 5087:25 5116:19 5129:6,18 ongoing 5027:10 open 4905:18 4974:10 4993:17 5064:13 5065:2 5099:8 5129:23 opened 5064:16 5116:11 opener 4987:1 opening 5043:18 5044:18 5063:23 5064:2 operated 5041:11 operating 4902:18 operator 5022:6 opinion 4810:4 4823:22 4883:19 4893:6 4894:7,25 4895:5 4899:5 4900:6 4903:22 4904:8,12 4906:10 4911:3 4913:8 4914:11 4918:8 4919:23 4923:12 4925:7,19 4951:14 4956:20 4957:13,17 4958:5,10,13 4959:7,10,21 4960:24 4961:1 4970:9 4982:1,14 4985:12 4992:7 4993:5,18 5021:1 5035:24 5044:23 5045:1,8 5046:6,7 5047:9 5049:3 5053:8,17 5055:6 5060:8,25 5077:22 5079:10 5087:19 opinions 4827:11 4850:16 4852:19 4883:23 4888:12 4890:1,21 4925:1 4961:4 4969:25 4972:16 4973:8 4991:10 4993:19 5037:17 5044:5,7 5046:2 5065:20 5088:1 opportunity 4804:16 4984:7 5107:23 5108:13,19 5109:6 5110:8 5114:17 5120:21 5124:22 oppose 5113:22 opposed 4823:6 4849:3 4971:2 5010:16 5020:15 5076:22 5103:20 5126:21 opposing 5078:14 optimistic 5101:22 oranges 4827:12 4834:5 orcutt 4838:18 5105:10,11,17,23 5106:3,9,14,22 5107:9,19 5108:2 5111:8 5117:2,10 5117:20 5121:4,16 5122:2,25 5123:4 5123:14 5130:25 orcutt's 4816:19 order 4838:20 4861:1 4982:14 4993:4 5007:4 5027:18 5069:13 5076:6 5091:11 ordered 4940:17 4946:19 orders 4908:4 organic 4857:15 5069:13 organization 4842:6 4850:8 4853:21 4874:12 4875:3,7 organizations 4852:22 4875:22 organs 4845:7 origin 5034:3 original 4806:8 4886:2 4888:21,22 4889:3,14,17,22 4890:3,17 4891:20 4893:7 4894:8,25 4899:25 4903:21,22 4910:20 4922:24 4925:7 4926:17 4959:2 4962:1,4 4969:2,6,11 5062:7 originally 4986:22 5069:21,22,23 osha 4945:12 5005:6 5005:9,11 5078:13 5078:14 oury 4867:12 4986:22 outdated 4902:3 outermost 5071:25 outside 4802:8 4804:17 4825:12 4828:8,11 4829:9 4835:22,23 4836:19 4919:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [outwards - paterson] outwards 4921:25 4934:8 overall 5052:12 5071:18 overestimated 4917:13,17 overestimation 4916:7,14 4918:22 4919:4 4920:6 overlap 4876:13 overlaps 4836:2 overnight 4895:8 5099:10 overrides 5125:8 overruled 4804:22 4808:16 4814:13 4898:1,5 4901:10 4909:4 4927:14 5039:15 oversight 4829:18 overtime 5093:15 owls 4840:10 p p 4799:1,1 4800:1,1 4801:10,10,11,11,12 4801:12,13,13,14,14 4801:15,15 4981:8 4981:10 4984:2 5000:16 5011:9 5019:10 5024:23 5029:14 5033:7,8 5075:2 5080:24 5085:17 5088:5,6 p.m. 5104:8 5131:3 p.o. 4800:5 pac 4933:10 pack 4892:22 4997:18,23 5051:9 5074:11 5081:23 5116:11,25,25 package 4807:17 packaged 4808:8 packages 4807:23 5116:10 Page 41 packaging 4807:18 4807:18,22 4808:7 4808:9 packed 5061:1 5099:3 packs 4997:21 4998:2,7 5115:20 5116:24 5127:14 page 4801:2,8 4803:20 4809:16 4811:8,16 4817:11 4817:17,17,18,22 4819:7,14 4820:19 4820:20,21 4821:8 4821:21 4822:9,10 4823:18 4824:16 4826:5 4827:3 4835:3 4950:5,5 4965:24 4981:16 4991:4 5005:25 5012:3 5016:4 5019:21 5030:11,11 5031:20 5032:19 5055:1 5070:8,14 5075:9 5081:3 5084:4 5088:19 5089:13,14 5106:3 pages 4803:21 4815:10 4872:17 5000:24 5052:1 5112:7 5125:22 paid 4930:20 pain 4979:15 painful 4979:11 paint 5001:4,12,23 painted 5001:5 painter 5001:17 5002:11 painters 5002:1,5 painting 5001:13,17 5002:23,25,25 5003:2,3 panel 4850:13,16,22 4850:23,23,24,24,24 4850:25 4851:6,9 4851:15,25 4852:11 4852:13,16 4853:8 4853:15,20 4854:5 4871:4,5,7 4874:13 4874:17 4875:18 4876:12 4877:6 4978:13,22 panels 4854:1 4978:9 panzarella 4798:3 4802:6 4837:14 paper 4877:15 4903:11 4929:2 4959:23 5016:13,13 5016:21 5090:9 papers 4865:1,3 paraffin 4942:25 5068:5 paragraph 4903:9 5021:21,25 5022:22 5023:5 5031:4,21 5051:4 5067:25 5070:9 5084:5 5088:19 paragraphs 4815:10 park 4902:12 parmele 4830:2,3,13 4830:20,23 4831:1 4831:17 4832:1,15 parmele's 4833:18 4834:6 part 4804:19 4805:7 4806:4 4808:2 4814:6 4816:14,19 4827:19 4830:19 4832:20 4833:2 4849:3 4851:16 4853:25 4855:4 4874:11 4887:19 4894:4 4896:25 4897:2 4908:9 4911:8 4930:5,9 4944:4 4948:20,25 4954:23 4973:1 4976:8 4988:25 5000:4 5001:20 5002:1 5003:2 5006:3 5009:2,23 5010:11 5017:22,23 5052:12 5060:7 5106:15,23 5112:1 5114:21 5115:22 5118:2 5123:6 5124:10 participate 4871:18 participated 4871:20 4872:9 particle 4858:19 4870:15 4933:15,16 4933:25,25 particles 4857:24 4859:22,24 4860:22 4885:16 4896:21 4898:23 4910:14 4913:17 4934:1,3 5076:18 particular 4810:23 4817:11 4845:6,7 4879:19,24 4894:6 4899:13 4975:15 4978:19 5047:14 5065:22 5098:9 particularly 4811:16 4846:6 5053:10,19 particulate 4924:16 parties 5096:24 5098:15 5113:18 partly 4977:3 parts 4826:21 5053:5 party 4993:8 5109:6 5114:9,10,15 pass 4852:19 passages 4811:3 5106:14 passing 4837:11 paterson 4798:20 4800:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [pathogenic - 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put] Page 45 4815:25 4816:8,14 4817:1,15,18,24,25 4836:16 4844:21,22 4844:23 4849:16,25 4856:7 4858:23 4859:23 4860:21 4863:23 4896:14 4910:19 4916:6 4922:8,11 5066:8 5082:15 processes 4836:14 4885:16 proclaiming 5065:1 produce 4945:21 5032:23 5125:16 produced 4812:2 4928:1 5121:15,16 5125:2 producing 4945:5 product 4812:3 4820:24 4821:13 4831:20 4834:7 4945:24 4952:12 4976:21 4977:18,19 4991:22 4995:17 4996:2 5000:6 5018:8 5026:20 5034:16 5037:3,18 5045:5,8,24 5046:13 5077:3 5122:16 5124:9 production 4812:7 5022:7 5125:2 products 4804:1 4864:11 4869:20 4884:21 4939:12 4940:19,24 4941:3 4944:14,23 4945:7 4946:4,18 4948:8 4952:5 4953:3 4957:22 4958:20 4976:21 4977:12 4983:6 4985:21 4986:14 5006:7 5007:19,23 5013:4 5014:3 5018:10 5020:6,12 5026:11 5030:18 5031:1,11 5031:12,17 professional 4841:4 4842:3 4850:7 4874:12 professor 4843:12 proffer 4905:9 4960:17 5044:20 5108:7 5112:20 program 4874:3 progressed 4966:16 progression 4885:12 project 4878:2 projections 5104:18 projects 4983:2 promised 5097:15 5097:20 promote 4820:24 pronunciation 4912:3,4 proof 5017:10 propensity 5054:19 proper 4857:9 4992:19 4993:21 5086:19 properties 5012:8 proposition 4966:20 prosequendum 4798:4 protect 4933:7 protection 4908:2 4912:13 5005:18 5033:15 protective 5007:13 5016:1,3,12 protein 4858:9 proven 5115:24 provide 5019:6 5088:21 provided 4886:20 4964:4 4968:5 4982:15 5020:20 5096:20 5129:7 public 4798:18 4828:9 publication 4865:4 4870:25 4891:9 4907:16 4929:24 4937:5 5077:23 5091:8,16,20 publications 4853:23 4864:25 4865:6 4869:6 4971:18,21,22 publicity 4845:24 publish 4853:21 4877:14 4878:24 4902:22 4925:21 4941:8 5091:17 5126:10,20,21,24 5128:21 5129:10 5130:3 published 4811:12 4853:22 4854:21 4864:25 4865:4,11 4865:21 4866:11,13 4870:9,10,12 4872:23 4873:2,8 4877:8 4878:23 4881:9 4891:2 4894:11 4895:17 4901:22 4903:3 4905:3 4912:4,9,19 4913:5 4924:24 4925:16 4927:4 4929:17 4938:1 4939:17,20 4940:16 4941:5 4943:13 4959:17,23 4963:2 4966:13 4969:19 4972:19 4973:2,6 4984:16 4986:21,21 4986:23 5011:22 5024:21 5029:25 5035:22 5046:21,23 5061:11 5062:5,13 5062:25 5087:23 5088:11 5090:10,13 5107:25 5112:9,11 5113:19 5115:13,19 5116:6,14,15,17,20 5116:22 5117:8,13 5117:24,24 5118:20 5119:2,13 5120:11 5120:15 5124:11 5126:24 publishers 4972:3 publishes 4854:3 publishing 4865:18 4884:10 4941:24 5091:8 puff 5067:22 5068:1 5068:2 5070:23 puffing 4909:7 puffs 5067:1 5070:21 5071:3,9 pull 5103:16 5128:2 pulled 5067:13,22 5068:12 pulling 4909:6 pulmonary 4851:1 4966:12 pulmonologist 4975:21 pulmonologists 4867:3 4874:24 purchased 4901:18 pure 5004:7 5009:17 5015:1 purely 4989:23 purpose 4804:21 4808:14 4821:6,14 4824:21 4837:2 4936:7 5057:23 purposes 4875:9,9 4875:10,11 5035:14 5044:18 pursuant 5008:18 push 4909:9 put 4855:13 4862:22 4866:1,5,8,17 4871:3 4898:22 4910:14 4912:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [put - realize] Page 46 4917:11 4919:16 4939:11 4940:18 4942:20 4945:1 4950:16 4951:20 4954:12 4988:17,20 4992:21 4997:23 4998:18 5006:10,14 5007:5,8 5033:21 5034:17 5038:12 5040:18 5047:1 5048:3,4,14 5053:22 5054:3 5055:15 5068:18 5069:17,25 5092:14 5098:20 5102:11 5109:3,5 5114:3,11 5120:9,10 puts 4807:5 4943:4 5019:4 putting 4863:11 4866:9 4871:7 4896:21 4982:6 5007:20 5048:2 5076:15 5113:13 5114:9,10 px 4926:12 q qualification 4813:7 qualified 4810:3 4815:14 4826:23 4886:13 5065:11 qualify 4815:12,13 4960:16 qualitative 5066:5 5066:12,15 quality 4810:20 4812:6 4820:25 5122:16 quantification 5089:2 quantify 4857:8 4858:1 4936:2 quantitative 5066:5 quartz 4846:2 question 4805:16 4808:21,24 4817:13 4819:15,19 4820:18 4820:22,22 4821:7 4821:12 4822:13 4827:4 4828:1 4832:23 4835:5,7 4878:6,13 4882:12 4896:8 4905:4,10 4905:19 4914:22 4916:24 4917:2 4928:18 4929:10,24 4935:3,17 4961:11 4961:13,19 4963:9 4963:17 4964:11,23 4968:3 4970:21 4971:17,24 4976:14 4977:2,14,18 4978:16,19 4995:5 5016:11,15 5018:25 5020:16,23 5036:12 5039:15,16 5065:8 5065:23 5075:12 5080:21 5096:2,2 5101:13 5106:1 5113:17 5118:22 5125:6 5126:16 5129:25 questioned 5121:13 questioning 4967:5 questions 4824:9 4863:16 4870:5 4883:19 4884:6 4906:4 4907:17 4919:5 4965:11 4983:25 5027:5 5082:25 5109:15 5119:7 quicker 5104:16 quickly 4814:23 4877:13 4931:16 4944:2,21 5120:21 quincy 4842:25 quirin 5106:9 5107:10,11,14 5112:7 5123:12,17 quit 4862:6,6 quite 4804:6 4962:22 5110:17 quote 5021:12 5034:16 5040:10 quoted 4925:24 4982:7 r r 4798:12 4799:1,4 4800:1,4 4839:9 radiate 4980:11 radiation 4881:8,8,8 4881:12,17 4980:8 radiographically 4847:3 radiologist 4956:11 4956:16 radiologists 4867:2 4874:24 radiology 4947:7 raise 4814:9 raised 4964:20 5037:13 5129:25 ran 4952:23 range 5010:17 5111:24 5112:1,4,5 5125:20 rapid 4915:16,25 4922:8,10,18 rapidly 4863:25 rare 4850:18 4855:10 rarely 5082:22 rate 4917:13 4930:13 4931:3,11 5051:9 5077:15 rates 4883:2 4917:18 ratio 4815:22 5052:13,15 rationale 4890:15 5111:15 5126:23 rats 4894:3 4915:4 4915:10 rays 4847:4 4858:20 razor 4943:2 rcedillo 4799:11 reach 4908:23 5054:20 reached 4916:14 4917:12 4919:15 4922:11 4999:13 reaches 5079:3 react 4849:20 4933:17 reactive 4849:25 read 4811:15 4815:19 4821:4 4826:24 4928:21 4929:7 4966:3 4984:7 5001:8 5005:14 5013:11 5022:9,14 5032:16 5032:25 5039:17 5043:13 5066:9 5067:10,17 5068:7 5070:24 5088:24 5089:5 5090:5 5091:13 5106:22 5107:14 5119:9 readers 4833:23 reading 4815:19 4818:17,23 4831:10 4911:22 4922:14 5019:1 5067:4 5071:5 5105:8 ready 4837:3 4839:4 4840:14 5047:17 real 4907:10 5120:21 realistic 4909:1 realization 4908:12 realize 4906:21 4907:3,18 4908:8 5097:15 5115:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [realized - related] realized 4911:23 4922:13 4925:11 realizing 5104:19 really 4815:2 4860:24 4879:25 4899:6 4906:25 4919:24 4941:23 4943:13 5037:8 5040:8 5124:21 reanalysis 4908:17 reask 4917:4 reasked 4808:25 reason 4831:22 4855:23 4920:3 4922:22 4962:21 4977:9 5022:24 5036:15 5041:18 5046:20 5054:7 5102:8 5120:8 5126:22,23 reasonable 4883:25 4891:23 4921:4 5020:13 5036:8 5038:3 5039:1 5103:10 reasonably 5081:11 reasons 4890:15,20 4890:25 5036:18 5042:15 5046:15 5052:2 5053:22 5070:12,18 5126:18 reassess 4906:15 4911:3 reassessing 4914:11 reassessment 4906:6 recall 4814:8 4838:17 4893:2 4894:20 4912:17 4952:8,11,19 4970:5,6 4975:12 4980:5 4985:4,6 4989:3,22 4990:1 4994:24 5004:11,13 5004:15,17,25 Page 47 5005:3 5007:10 5017:8 5018:17 5027:2 5028:15 5059:16,19 5060:17 5061:5,14 5074:7 5075:21 5078:17,23 5080:11,18,21 5084:25 5085:1,3 5092:6 5124:8 recalled 4980:7 receive 4839:22 received 4839:25 4841:2 4845:24 4947:1,11 recess 4887:1 4974:4 5059:5 recipe 4861:9 reciprocal 5111:1 recognize 5019:13 5081:1 recognized 4852:2 4881:7,16 4882:5 4992:16 5011:25 5024:4 recollection 4930:3 5016:22 reconsideration 4959:16,18,20 reconvene 5098:22 record 4822:5,7 4839:7 4886:25 4951:18 4965:23 4974:3 5059:4 5099:20,23 5114:2 5118:14 5119:16 5120:22,23,24 5124:19 records 4885:19 4897:16 4947:13 4948:19 4951:7,9 4956:13 4979:14,19 4994:22 4997:21 5008:17 5009:8,10 recover 5125:12 recovering 5111:11 5111:14 5112:18 5119:18 recycled 5126:5 redid 5110:22 5120:3 redirect 5058:10 5064:10 reduce 4918:18 reduces 5015:12,20 5015:22 reducing 4918:24 reed 4799:13 refer 4817:10 4866:17,22 4867:1 reference 4927:16 5060:13 referenced 4926:20 4966:19 5116:20 references 4828:21 4866:6 4951:10 4966:11 referencing 4953:23 referral 4850:15 referred 4852:20 4877:2 4878:25 5055:23 5124:11 referring 4816:15 4912:4 4927:6 4985:10 5072:24 refined 4888:15 refineries 4958:17 4988:22 4989:8 refinery 4989:6 reflect 5071:12 reflected 4999:8 refund 5122:13 regard 4802:5 4803:15 4804:25 4836:11 4837:14 4915:3 4917:7 4973:21 4985:19 4992:5 4993:20 4994:21 5024:14 5034:25 5037:18 5044:6,7,16 5047:20,24 5049:10 5059:13 5064:10 5066:2 5088:20 5105:9 5115:12 5123:18 5124:12,25 5126:4 regarding 4847:22 4886:2 4888:19 4893:7 4906:10 4914:17 4918:3 4922:6 4923:3 4925:7,18 4927:17 4946:24 4947:9,15 4963:24 4970:1 4991:10,22 5020:19 regardless 4878:11 5109:13 5120:12 regional 4937:17 regular 4858:7,10 4858:11 5045:19,23 5091:17 regulations 5008:18 5008:25 5078:15 rehashing 5112:16 reinert 4808:6 5114:6 reinserted 5068:3 reinventing 4864:2 reject 4925:5 4984:11,21 4985:16 4997:14 rejected 4987:7 4997:2 5078:1,6 relate 4846:17 related 4842:24 4846:23 4855:12 4865:7,10,12,22 4866:24 4867:17 4868:13 4870:8 4871:23 4872:16,20 4872:24 4882:1 4883:15 4884:12 4886:14 4887:19,24 4900:11,19 4930:6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [related - research] 4930:11 4936:5 4939:18 4944:5 4964:25 4971:1 4984:18 5012:1 5029:20,20 5055:11 relates 4922:1 5123:14 relation 4828:7 4921:9 5127:5 relations 4828:9 relationship 4893:8 relative 5017:20 5021:3 5055:13 5056:23 5057:4 relatively 4850:18 5032:20 release 4810:1 4811:19 4892:19 4918:3 4934:1 4958:18 4960:8 4970:18 5004:23 5051:16 5054:10 5057:9 5058:4 5059:15 5066:3 5070:22 5098:17 5103:20 released 4892:20 4909:12 4926:1 4945:17 5049:7 5060:3,15,24 5061:2 5066:7 5070:11 5077:3 5081:9 releasing 4909:11 5061:14 5102:21 relevance 4804:2,3 4805:1 4806:1 4815:18 4820:11 4825:25 4833:15 4834:3 relevancy 4807:19 4808:3 relevant 4803:24 4804:14 4806:12 4812:2 4826:9,16 Page 48 4826:18,19 4831:5 4832:25 4836:6 4919:24 4928:7 reliability 4959:22 4960:6,13 4970:14 reliable 4970:9 5058:7 reliably 4970:17 reliance 5118:18,21 relied 5050:7 5054:22 5055:5,9 5057:12 5058:5 5060:7,21 5061:17 5065:19 5079:1,14 relitigating 5127:2 rely 5056:20 5065:25 5066:2 5082:8 remain 5077:1 remaining 5067:7 remains 4804:22 remember 4803:9 4813:19 4815:3 4816:22 4886:20 4961:10 4970:15 4973:19,20 4978:23 5016:2 5039:16 5058:24,25 5085:4 5091:10 5096:19 5116:23 remind 4810:5 4966:14 5121:18 5122:2 reminded 4922:15 removal 4922:11 4951:4 5016:7 remove 4807:10 4831:15 4896:25 5005:11 5122:8 removed 4921:14,18 4922:3,17 5001:6 5009:4 removing 4921:25 4948:4 4992:16 5003:6 5004:1 5006:2 5024:3 render 4991:9 rendered 4979:6 renovation 4983:2 repair 4951:4 repeat 5039:17 repeated 4903:15 repetition 4812:6 rephrase 4897:14 4917:22,25 4929:20 replaced 5001:7 5006:10 replacement 4833:1 replacing 5003:7 5004:2 replied 5107:15 report 4811:6 4852:12 4855:10,11 4855:19,21,25 4856:8 4861:16,25 4942:2,6 4947:2,5,6 4951:22 4957:4 4960:3,14 4963:1 4963:22 4977:8,10 4979:6 4981:5,13 4982:3 4984:7 4987:13 4990:15,21 4991:2,24 4992:14 4992:21,23 4994:4 4997:23 5000:10 5001:2 5021:16,18 5021:22 5022:25 5023:2,18 5024:8,9 5024:13 5035:6,7,9 5035:14 5036:7,11 5036:14 5037:9,18 5037:19,24 5038:5 5038:8,10,23 5039:22 5040:18,22 5051:4 5106:16 reported 4903:13 4965:24,25 5026:21 5029:2 5086:3 5132:6 reporter 4798:18 5132:4 reporting 4901:6 reports 4854:23 4855:1 4856:2,5 4866:5 4942:1,8 4947:5,7 4969:13 4990:23 5041:7 represent 4905:6 5032:3 5121:5 representation 5114:1 5116:3 5117:9 representative 4815:24 4918:14 represented 5071:3 representing 4822:12 4928:22 5092:13 represents 5031:8 reproducible 5126:16 requested 4981:25 require 4972:24 5010:25 required 4814:20 requirements 4842:9 requires 5005:6 resaid 5110:22 research 4811:11 4843:14 4854:10 4855:4 4863:14,16 4864:9 4866:25 4869:25 4871:5 4874:4 4879:17 4884:10,12,15 4885:2,6 4891:8 4902:12 4906:13 4907:16 4916:14 4918:1 4925:8 4926:16 4927:12 4944:4 4948:25 4959:23 4970:2 4972:25 4973:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [research - right] 5062:6 5090:22 5091:4 5110:21 5113:25 researcher 4854:13 4855:23 4924:21 4960:23 4972:20 reserve 5128:5 reserved 4830:1,7 4832:20 residency 4865:16 4865:18 4874:2 resident 4841:10 4860:2 residents 4843:14 4874:2 residue 5068:2 resins 4924:2 resolution 4858:16 resolve 4823:2 resource 4851:25 4877:10 respect 4989:13 respectfully 4991:8 respective 4975:17 respirable 4915:5 5015:10 5045:6 respirator 5005:1 5005:17 5007:13 5014:24 5015:19 respirators 5005:7 5005:12 respiratory 4908:15 4912:1 4913:19 4914:7 4915:1,6,14 4932:1 4934:20 5011:15 responding 4905:18 response 4917:21 4992:6 5128:11 responsibilities 5022:12 5023:12 responsible 4989:12 rest 4807:6 4824:8 5073:14 5082:1 5103:5 Page 49 restated 4819:19 result 4833:21 4864:8 4882:20 4893:14 4904:5 4908:11 4919:19 4999:13 5017:24 5028:21 5041:6 5046:23 resulted 4920:6 5117:12 resulting 4908:10 results 4859:12 4899:22 4903:13 4938:12 4942:4 5084:4 5126:11,21 resuspend 4910:13 retain 5093:1,3 retained 4982:16 retainer 5093:5,9 retention 5093:4,8 5093:12,22 retentions 5093:19 rethink 4911:21 rethinking 4900:6 retired 4822:14 4901:21 returns 5104:3 reveal 4995:2 revealed 4996:21,24 revere 5057:14 5060:14 5061:5,25 5066:13 reverse 5072:13 review 4804:16 4904:11 4942:7,11 4946:23 4947:8,14 4953:12,17 4956:12 4963:10 4972:4 4998:19 5011:15 5088:2 5089:4 reviewed 4818:12 4865:2 4876:6 4885:18,21 4886:1 4904:21 4961:23 4971:19,21,23 4972:1,3,7,10 4987:24 4989:25 5000:21 5040:23 5061:11 reviewing 4930:23 rhythmically 4921:24 ricardo 4799:9 4802:17 4837:24 rice 4839:24 4840:10,10,18 rid 4805:22 4806:24 4807:5 4857:14 4915:17 4916:1 5069:13 ride 4934:8 right 4807:8 4812:8 4816:24 4819:8,9 4820:16 4824:4,11 4825:8 4832:12 4833:3 4837:11 4839:17 4841:3,21 4843:16 4844:3 4845:5,19 4849:10 4850:10 4851:8,18 4852:21 4856:22 4858:3 4865:17 4866:16 4871:12 4872:11 4873:18 4874:5 4875:17,21 4875:24 4876:4,21 4877:7 4878:19,21 4880:23 4883:17 4886:24 4890:1,8 4891:7 4894:5,23 4895:4,15 4898:6 4899:12,22 4901:15 4902:7,20 4903:18 4904:9 4906:15 4908:6 4909:18 4910:25 4911:5,17 4914:3,9,14 4916:4 4917:9 4918:7 4919:3,14 4920:2,5 4923:2 4926:19 4930:4,22 4931:6 4931:14 4932:23 4933:23 4934:10,21 4936:7 4943:7 4944:1 4946:11,20 4948:16,24 4949:7 4954:21 4958:25 4961:14,15 4969:24 4973:11 4974:24 4975:4 4977:2,16 4977:21 4978:5,7 4978:13,17 4980:8 4980:13,25 4983:5 4983:20 4986:3,19 4987:22,25 4988:3 4988:6,15,24 4989:16 4993:25 4995:20 4996:4,14 4997:24 4998:5,10 4998:22 4999:2,10 4999:16,17 5001:14 5001:19 5002:15 5003:7,12,16,19,23 5004:7,19,23 5005:4,23,25 5006:11 5007:14,20 5008:15,25 5009:13 5009:22 5010:10 5011:1,20 5012:18 5012:22 5014:1,6,8 5018:2,5,10 5020:15 5021:25 5022:21 5023:6,9 5023:25 5025:3 5026:1,4,12,20 5027:13 5028:8,17 5030:7 5031:12 5032:11 5033:5 5040:16,17,19,20 5041:10 5042:12,18 5043:2 5047:17 5050:23 5051:21,24 5052:16 5053:15 5055:7,16,20 5057:1,15 5058:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [right - says] Page 50 5062:22 5064:13 5065:4,5 5066:15 5066:24 5067:2,20 5067:23 5068:25 5069:4,14,17,22 5071:6,16,20 5072:25 5073:3,6 5073:17,20 5074:14 5075:16,24 5076:4 5076:8,18 5077:11 5077:18,23 5079:22 5080:1 5083:17 5085:5,12 5086:4 5086:22 5087:3,6 5087:10,13,16 5088:8 5089:1 5090:15 5091:9 5092:1,10,23 5093:2,6,13,22 5094:23 5096:10 5099:19 5101:16 5102:9,12,20 5104:1,17 5105:2,5 5105:18 5116:1 5118:23 5119:8 5120:20 5124:6 5128:8 5129:2 5130:15,23 ring 5050:14 rise 4941:1 risk 5002:2 5031:9 robbing 5113:13 rocket 4860:24 roggli 4801:3 4803:7 4825:11 4838:25 4839:1,2,8 4839:11 4886:6 4906:3 4918:1 4922:17 4924:20 4928:22 4934:22 4942:7 4953:2,12 4960:4 4964:13 4965:13,13 4966:11 4966:11 4967:6 4971:18 4973:10,18 4974:15 4984:11 4991:5,9,20 4994:4 4997:8 5008:6 5019:11 5025:23 5028:18 5030:4 5032:11 5033:3 5038:4,10 5045:24 5048:15 5062:22 5063:2,6 5065:24 5066:1,19 5071:1 5094:2 5095:4 5097:1 5126:17 roggli's 4840:7 4970:15 4990:14 5036:7 role 4810:8 4812:10 4863:13 4976:25 4980:16,21 4998:4 5081:12 5088:23 5089:23 5124:1 roll 4813:22 4817:18,25 rolled 4817:4 5067:7 rolling 4817:3 roman 4951:20 4953:1 room 5007:11 rooms 5004:6,7 5015:1 rose 5111:1 rosenzweig 4810:23 rotate 5122:6 roth 5042:6,9,11 5048:15,20 5049:4 5049:21 5051:20,21 5065:24 5079:23 5081:1 5082:4 roth's 5048:24 roughly 5084:16 rounds 4944:25 4945:1 routine 4902:17 4977:24,25 4978:2 4978:3 ruiz 4961:12 rule 5047:18 5111:20 5115:8 ruled 4813:25 4814:6 4826:17 4830:9 5043:15,25 5047:21,23 5105:19 5118:4 5121:7 rules 4814:20 4815:12 5071:12 5110:7 5121:9 ruling 4824:13 4830:5 4834:13 4905:15 5039:9 rulings 4904:21 4905:7 running 4810:19 4952:16 runs 4812:1 5124:9 rushing 4804:13 s s 4799:1 4800:1 4801:7 4948:13 4983:12 saf 5089:10 safely 4887:17 sales 4820:14 5122:4 salesman 5122:5 salesperson 5125:5 sample 4843:22 4844:2 4860:16 4942:16,20,24 4947:6 4978:17 samples 4843:25 4844:8,9 4848:22 4857:4,13 4860:3,7 4860:7 4880:19 4910:4,5 4925:14 4926:3 4928:10 4941:18 4942:23 4943:14 4960:9 5008:22 5054:24 5079:16 sampling 5008:23 san 4799:10 sandblasting 4846:3 sat 4986:22 5114:7 satisfied 4842:11 saturday 5097:24 5097:25 5098:2 save 4931:20 5101:2 saved 4862:19 savvy 4862:20 saw 4825:11 4828:4 4828:10 4830:3 4888:1 4954:6,20 5060:10 5108:5 5109:11 saying 4813:20 4815:3 4822:9 4877:16 4981:25 4985:6 4987:1 5020:10 5058:8 5073:10 5112:20 says 4805:15,18 4814:24 4816:2 4818:25 4821:9,9 4827:8 4828:10,20 4829:4 4830:15 4856:9 4873:10 4898:2 4917:17 4929:3,4 4960:6 4965:20,23 4966:8 4966:23,25,25 4981:15,17,19,20 4985:5 4991:5 4992:15 4993:3 4999:12 5012:23,24 5013:20 5016:9,17 5022:19,23 5030:12 5031:4,7 5032:3,13 5032:19 5037:4 5038:14 5051:7 5055:24 5067:1,5 5067:12 5070:10 5071:18 5089:8,22 5090:6 5102:2 5116:23 5122:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [scan - seven] Page 51 scan 4956:15 scanning 4902:14 scarring 4846:13,14 4846:25 4862:8 4956:3,5 scars 4846:16 schedule 5098:13 5099:1 science 4860:25 4885:12 4924:22 4925:3,4,6,10 5046:20 5110:21 5114:1 5115:3 sciences 5064:1 scientific 4863:15 4864:25 4865:5 4869:11 4877:8 4878:25 4883:25 4884:11 4902:23 4913:4,6 4924:24 4924:25 4925:17 4960:25 4972:12 4995:7 5014:17 5049:7 5051:16 5054:9 5057:8 5059:14 5089:19 5091:17 scientist 4855:22 4924:21 4960:22 4970:22,25 4972:20 5063:19 5064:8,9 5065:13,14 scope 4835:22,23 4836:19 4960:17 4961:5 4970:18 4992:11,12 4993:16 4993:21 5057:22,25 5058:1 5106:20 score 4842:17 scotts 4985:19,21 4987:7 screen 4816:21 4840:5 5019:5 5021:11 5033:22 5040:11 5059:11 sdefeo 4799:19 seated 4834:25 4837:9 4974:7 5059:8 seats 5095:3 second 4806:16,21 4849:3 4850:16 4866:12 4867:13,19 4870:20 4909:19 4938:20 4981:16 5021:21,25 5023:5 5031:21 5051:4 5070:23 5084:4 5114:11,16 secondarily 4850:2 secondly 4831:14 4880:11 4915:15 4918:16 5110:10 seconds 5067:14 section 4832:24 4869:3 4897:10 4903:19 4928:21 4967:14 4984:4 5012:14 sectional 4856:19 sections 4870:22 4943:3 4952:2 4983:24 see 4811:16 4816:4 4816:11 4818:14 4819:1,20,21 4822:6 4826:5 4837:8 4846:14,15 4846:21 4850:20 4856:10 4858:10 4860:4,18 4863:22 4868:21 4878:7,9 4879:7 4886:25 4904:25 4910:5,18 4912:10 4926:9 4936:9 4949:23,25 4951:3,9 4956:3,9 4956:11 4957:1 4973:1 4977:6 4982:25 4983:5,8 4983:11,15 4985:4 4987:19 5002:9 5005:25 5012:5,15 5013:1,10,17,23,25 5015:25 5016:18 5020:2,16 5021:19 5022:1 5023:1,21 5024:6 5029:23 5030:3,15,22 5031:4,22 5032:8 5033:19 5034:4,12 5051:10 5055:3 5057:10 5060:19 5066:20 5070:13,16 5073:14 5077:10 5081:5,7,16,17 5082:2 5089:12 5094:7 5095:5,16 5097:9,10 5099:11 5102:8 5103:15 5105:2 5107:2 5116:12 5123:21 5130:8 5131:1 seeing 4863:21 4925:14 4939:24 4949:24 4950:2 seeking 5115:11 seeks 4808:15 seen 4811:18 4813:5 4816:16,18 4854:5 4858:15 4876:9,11 4876:16 4895:21 4976:9 4983:22 4998:11 5000:19 5009:10 5060:1,1 5062:16 5088:17 segment 4815:24 5106:8,22 seldom 4828:5,11 4829:8 selikoff 4826:16 sellable 5122:7,17 selling 5122:19 semiquantitative 5055:10 send 4844:9 4850:19 4852:7,13,15,18 4859:18 4942:17 4972:3 5093:9 5122:8 sending 4942:6 sends 4942:23 5093:5 senior 4927:9 sense 4989:7 5069:10 sent 4829:3 4843:25 4844:6 4861:16 4898:7 4998:18,22 4999:9,14 5107:10 5122:10 sentence 4806:16,17 4806:22 4807:5 5023:18,23 5030:17 5032:18 5051:5 5067:3,12 5084:12 sentences 5089:22 separate 4848:3 4849:17 4859:8 4942:24 4955:5 5118:1 september 4876:20 5075:4 series 4884:5 serpentine 5012:15 5012:17 served 4812:11 4960:3 5028:12 serves 4863:24 service 4843:15 set 5004:6 5118:1 5132:7 setting 4824:8 4945:6 4956:22 4976:17 5045:5,10 5046:10 5047:13 5076:13 settings 5078:22 seven 4817:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [sewage - 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