Criminal trial testimony: Swami Anugiten

1098 Hereby stipulated and agreed stlpulatlon may be recelved 1D evldence and counsel for any party approval of the Court may publish lt to the jury durlng this trlal The stlpulatlon lS slgned by each of the partles and properly taken THE COURT Would you those' Your next wltness, please MR REARDON Your Honor, we are at that where we have a wltness that lS golng to be on dlrect sure at least an hour So lf lt please the Court and lf the Court lS golng to adjourn at quarter of, I don have somebody for 15 mlnutes I would be a good long time the next wltness THE COURT Well, let start the witness and get them and the over MR REARDON Very well Rlchard Langford RICHARD LANGFORD, Government's wltness, duly sworn THE CLERK Please state your name for the record and spell your last name THE WITNESS Sworn lH Rlchard Langford a I, R. Langford 1099 MR REARDON May I 1nqu1re? THE COURT Yes DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR REARDON Mr Langford, how are you employed, slr' I employed as a tree surgeon 1U Seattle, arborlst How long have you been so employed' The last year and a half, approxlmately Mr Langford, did you plead gullty ln this court to to murder then Attorney Turner ln l985? Was that as a result of a plea agreement the Unlted States' Yes, lt was Yes, lt was Do you recall ln return for your plea of gullty was that a plea of gullty 1D you gu1lt? Yes I admlt gullt In return for your plea of gullty, the United States make certaln promlses to you' Yes And was lt ln regard to conduct you Yes, I didR. Langford 1100 Yes, lt was And what conduct' I was 1U an arson, I an arson and I And as a result of plea you were not prosecuted for elther of those offenses" No, I wasn you go to pr1son? Yes, I What was your sentence' How long you serve? I recelved 33 months altogether Where? In Germany, 1D the Federal Republic of Germany, here ln the County Jall, and at Lompoc Prlson ln Callfornla, federal prlson And, slr, were you ever prosecuted ln or any other court for what you ln regard to an attempt on the llfe of Devaraj? No, I wasn I gorng to ask you, slr, also as a result of that plea agreement, you agree to answer truthfully any questlons propounded to you by law enforcement Four yearsR. Langf Yes, I ord 1101 And subsequently to that tlme did you? Yes I am golng to take you back a long tlme now to your youth Where were you ra1sed? I was born ln Syracuse, New York and ralsed ln North Syracuse you have brothers and s1sters? Yes, I did How many? Four brothers and two slsters MR WEATHERHEAD I object, Your Honor Relevance I don see the relevance MR REARDON Introductory I have done lt every wltness, Judge It won be MR WEATHERHEAD Sometimes these lntroductory I get foreclosed about them on cross seems lt lrrelevant MR REARDON I won he asks on cross THE COURT Make lt MR REARDON Thank By Mr Reardon) Do you have any objectlon to any short you recall your very earllest you recall there came a tlme when your mother d1edR. Langford 1102 How old were you? I was four When you learn she dled? I learned when I was 18, from my father From the time she dled and you were 18, what of memorles you have of her? MR WEATHERHEAD Your Honor, I object to the relevance of THE COURT I don see the relevance Sustaln the objectlon MR REARDON Thank you, Your Honor (By Mr Reardon) you learn how she d1ed? MR WEATHERHEAD Your Honor, objectlon again Irrelevant MR REARDON A mlnute and a half out of someone llfe, Your Honor THE COURT I understand Overrule objectlon Go ahead (By Mr Reardon) you learn how she d1ed? She sulclde Under what c1rcumstances? She ran off another man They put a hose ln the car and they dled together What happen to you, slr, during your teenage years' Do you recall what you dld, supported yourselfR. Langford 1103 Oh, yeah, I always supported myself since I was 12 going to school, at home but still What type of work you do' Then lt was a paper route and grocery store D1d you have any f1ghts? Not very many A few I golng to dlrect your attentlon to readlng ou recall whether you read much' Oh, yeah, I read qulte a lot when I was young What you read' And there come a tlme when you left home' Yes How old where you' I was 18 Why did you leave' Because my home life was so drsruptlve, I couldn stay there Was your famlly your brothers and slsters, were they together at that po1nt? Some were My older brother left, my younger brother had ran away from home at 16, and the rest were there Where you go' I went Into the clty and Adventure, mostly. Yeah, adventure storiesR. Langford 1104 Q. What city? A. Syracuse, and got an apartment and worked. Q. What did you do? A. Well, I worked in the grocery store for a while, I worked in a factory where my father had worked for a short time. And then I got a job truck driving, and that was my main job for a few years. Q. Did there come a time you left Syracuse? A. Yes. Q. When? A. When I was 22. Q. Why? A. I wanted to expand, I wanted to go to California and see what was there. A Q. Did you? A. Yes. Q. Where did you go? A. I went to Santa Barbara. I went all through California. I ended up in Santa Barbara. Q. Did you work? A. I worked there, yes. Q. What type of work? A A. I worked arbory, tree surgery there. Q. Where did you learn that? A. I learned it in upstate New York with a company R. Langford 1105 outslde of Rochester How long you stay lH Cal1forn1a? Three years you do any lnternatlonal travellng at that t1me? that tlme, yes I went to Mexlco, Costa Rlca, through Central Amerlca yourself or others? myself Why? Well, I went to, agaln, experlence another culture lH Indlans and the different Indlan people of Central America Were you attracted by nature 1tself? Oh, yes The sun and the warm and the beaches, too And there come a tlme when you returned to the Unlted States? Yes And you stay on the Contlnental Unlted States? Yes I stayed ln Santa Barbara when I returned from there And then I moved to H&Wal1 after that And what you do out there' Agaln I trees, tree work And how long did you stay there' I stayed two and a half years on Maul ln Hawall . there come a tlme that you learned about the . . . . . life. And I wanted to see the ruins of the Mackey (phR. Langford 1106 existence of the ashram or commune in India that interested you? A. That was Q. Just answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. How did you learn about it? 2 A. I learned from a friend who had been there, and through some tapes that I heard. Cassettes. Q. And who were the cassettes by? A. By Bhagwan. Q. Shree Rajneesh? A. Shree Rajneesh, yeah. Q. As a result of talking to your friend and listening to these tapes what, if anything, did you do? Tell these ladies and gentlemen. A. I packed up my stuff and sold everything and went to' Poona, to India. And Q. Why? A. Because I wanted to find out what was there. My friend had said she couldn't tell me what it was like, that I would have to experience it. And I did. Q. And how long did you stay? A. I stayed about a year and a half in Poona. Q. What year was this, do you recall, on or about? A. It was later 1979, and all through 1980 into 1981. R. Langford 1107 Q. And did you meet people there that you became friends with' Sure I met a lot of people, a lot of sannyaslns took sannyasin What does that mean' It means I became a disciple of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh Was there any requirements to becoming a disciple of the Bhagwan? Yes I surrendered myself to Bhagwan I was there because I loved him, came to love him and the ideas in the commune and the things that were happening there And what is it that you loved about him in the commune' young people going on there People my age and older and younger But and the building of spirit and inner self that was happening there And he was always giving discourses, talking about how to live life, and I listened to it all THE COURT All right We are going to stop for the day, ladies and gentlemen Remember all of my admonitions and we will reconvene at 9 00 in the morning Counsel, 8 45 And have a good night rest See you tomorrow Thank you Well, it was the all of the dynamic energy of the R. Langford 1119 RICHARD LANGFORD, Government's witness, prevlously duly sworn DIRECT EXAMINATION (Contlnulng) BY MR REARDON Mr Langford, you are here under subpoena' Yes, I am You want to be here? I don want to be here Do you know Sav1ta? Yes, I do Well, lS she ln the courtroom' MR WEATHERHEAD Stlpulated, Your Honor Yes Is she ln the courtroom' Yes, she you please Identify her' WAX Stlpulate REARDON Thank you (By Mr Reardon) Yesterday I belleve I dlrected your attention I we got as far as Poona, lf you recall Yes Where LS Poona(By Mr. Reardon) Do you know SuR. Langford 1120 A. Poona is in India. Q. When were you there first? A. Late 1970 and 1980. When you went to Poona ln 1980, what you do" I went to the ashram there and Keep your voice up I went to the ashram ln Poona and became a sannyasln And I lrved there and worked there What type of work you do' I began as a handyman fences, then I was guard, personal guard for Bhagwan And At house Don trall off Each tlme all the way through every sentence And what advantage, lf any, for yourself you belng there? What good did lt do you' It was an emotlonal one of the best tlmes lH my llfe there Explain that the ladles and gentlemen of the jury, why' At that tlme was llke a whole new me, a whole new being And lt was so all of these people, and I was part of new time And my master was personally did you serve at Poona? What was the benefit R. Langford there 1121 I a bunch of groups, people groups there before I after I came, before I became a sannyasln You do these groups so you can get lH touch your personal It a therapy session worked through all, past trauma of of my mother death, of like And so a real free tlme helng other people who were the same as I that tlme A lot of carlng, sharlng, Was there a partlcular process or lf I uSlHg the wrong word forglve me or program was most helpful to you lH regard' Well, the group, the therapy groups, one group was called was a having hyperventllatlng and medltatlon That was very helpful 1D my releaslng of tensions and things What would you do during the program group" A serles of steps of lead my would lt not so clear now I haven done years But lt go lnto deep breathing Maybe mlnutes of hyperventllatlng It llke lt you In a dlfferent state of And then you med1tate and lle on the floor Then at the end lt for 15 flve, ten would put would you would do a dance and free yourself At that tlme lt was very R. Langford 1122 good for me. Q. How long did you stay at Poona? I stay Yes, lH 1980 Most of 1980 As far as I remember, I was there untll Bhagwan left for America Then shortly after I also went to Amerlca, but lt was about a year's tlme, less than year And you sald your master was there Who was your master" Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh What that mean' Tell the ladles and gentlemen You sald your master What effect that have on your everyday 11fe? master, lt was llke you gave up famlly, frlends I mean, not frlends, but you gave up any concepts that you had of llke family friends Everything was new It was llke a change ln both tradltlonal concepts that we learn as growlng up That lS what you gave up What you get ln return? I got love, freedom, acceptance and a remarkable tlme as an experlment ln country cultures, you would say, or a new way of being or Now, you have Savlta and Su you meet was everything. When you surrendered to your I . A. . R. Langford 1123 either of them at Poona' I met Savita briefly I would see her there Under what c1rcumstances? She lived in Bhagwan house and she would come through the gate where I was a guard at the gate to screen them that would come in and out She lived there She was always very pleasant and said hello And like that What did you think of her? Oh, I liked her Very much then, she was very likable And what did she think of you, if you now' I don know Not clearly that I remember it in Poona She lived at Bhagwan house' Yes going to direct your attention to the time that you left Poona What was it that caused you to leave Poona' I left Poona under the directions that I was going to go to New Jersey to a castle At the time when Poona was closing down, Bhagwan had left, there was a lot of rumors flying around there was going to be a new commune For months rumors of a different commune in all parts of the world And they message that was said sent out to people in ashram, everyone should go home and wait until PIyou know what her position was at the timeR. Langford 1124 they hear, go back to wherever they need to go and walt untll they hear Some people stayed there I worked there and I stayed there And then at one polnt I got called Into the offlce and told me to pack my bag, I was going to New Jersey Who told you that, lf you remember' I don remember Okay When you were told to pack your bags and go to New Jersey, you do lt' Gladly At that time lt was llke an honor, one of the best honors to be going to where Bhagwan was And do you know how many others were glven that honor' When I got to New Jersey, there was roughly 50 people And how you get there? I flew a bunch of other sannyaslns at the tlme How you get the money' I had a tlcket provided Actually, no, I got the tlcket together from another sannyasln He gave me the money to fly there And you got ln New Jersey and you saw these 50 people, what did you do? I was I hugged and I sald, Wow, this lS really amazlng . there Langford 1125 Sorry I sald what you do I wasn clear Rather than how you felt What I do? I was golng to ask you that What did you do' I llved at the castle I again general llke mowed the lawn, some housecleanlng, was back ln Amerlca It was Green, lt was wonderful after belng ln Indra a country as far as people and and tragedy everywhere, but Amerlca was ln New Jersey Are you an American Yes, I am And how long you stay ln New Jersey' I stayed there approximately two weeks What I remember lS two weeks And do you recall whether you observed elther Savlta or Su ln New Jersey' I don recall there come a tlme when you left New Jersey' Yes Why? There was plenty of rumors ln New Jersey about where the new commune was Agaln one day we all would have lunch together There was like a publlc roomIt, beautiful. It was like paradise back in this green castle R. Langford 1126 everybody talked about everybody and gossip this and gossip that I mentioned to a group of people there that I could run heavy equipment I had run a backhoe and things before in a golf course where I worked And then I got called to the office and said, Well, you are going to go to a ranch in Oregon, and that where I went When you were first told the news, what was your reaction' I was excited and also stressed because in New Jersey it was beautiful there and Bhagwan was there And suddenly to leave again after being reunited, coming back from India, I didn know how I was shaky then I didn know at that time Was that part of your shakiness? Yes And when you left New Jersey, after you left New Jersey when did you arrive for the first time at the ranch here in Oregon' You mean day wise' To the best of your recollection What year was it' Let start with that 1981 You remember what part of the year it was' A. I Q. Did you know whether Bhagwan was going to go with youR. Langford 1127 No, I don remember exactly It wasn was sometlme lt was warm How you get to the ranch the first tlm9? I flew lnto Redmond alrport Agaln some other sannyaslns, we went together, and I don remember who they were And then one of the guys from the ranch plcked us up there and then we drove for hours to get back to the ranch I want you to tell the ladles and gentlemen what you saw when you got there What was your lmpresslon? Well, the that really always lmpressed me, I still see lt lh my mind today, lS that as I left the alrport we kept further and further and further We kept going lnto llke desert land I had just come from all of the greenery ln New Jersey and come out of Indra I was kind of shocked and dlsappolnted In my mind I seen ranch beautlful green trees and rivers And I don know, lt wasn't what I expected So I was llke dlsappolnted that I golng Into this desert country I had been ln before, but I wouldn have chosen to llve lH at that tlme How many people were there when you got there' About 20 people So among that group of 20, when you see elther Savlta R. Langford 1128 Savlta I saw How long had you been on the ranch' I don know that answer, but lt was short There wasn a lot of people when she first came All Tell the best of your recollectlon was lt that year, was lt a month or It was months of that tlme And what was your when you got to the ranch at flISt7 I was was I worked trees The first I was to plant an orchard No, myself, another fellow and a bunch of people, all worked together How you get your dlrectlon as to what to do' In the there was a man that was the ranch foreman there, Bob Harvey He was ln charge of lt, equipment and And he I not clear how I got dlrectlons to plant the orchard But he was 1H charge of the equlpment to do the and And there come a tlme when your vlew of the ranch changed from your vlew when you saw 1t? Oh, yeah, yes Explaln that, please, brlefly to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury that on your ownR. Langford 1129 As the months and years passed, I became to love this land I worked lt I bullt roads there, we bullt a dam We had of a clty It was the most beautiful lH the world started to unfold, were happenlng at such a pace that days would run lnto days, 12, 15 hours a day It was It was llke LH the wilderness a clty And more and more people started to come and lt was you fall lH love there' Yes, I When' End of July Savlta Was that love ln 1981, was lt reclprocal' you recelve that from her also' In the not no, she was comlng from another and she had a lot of paln around that But I was very taken by her And very And your pay off' Yes, lt And when did that bloom lnto a mutual love' In that year With whomR. Langford 1130 What year' 1981 lnto 82 And tell us when you met Su for the tlme That lS a unclear She was at the ranch and she became the mom of the heavy equipment, Bob Harvey was a different person to work with for a person who was who wash sannyasln, have these ldeas that we had how could he done and done He had more tradltlonal ldeas, plus he llved there and Su became boss of the heavy equlpment And when you say mom, would you explaln that concept to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury as you understood lt to be' name, Swaml I was Swami Anuglten And each female had name Ma Savlta or Ma Su And we addressed the term mom became at the ranch people kind of 1n charge, taking care of people as we were And that name mom, she was one of the moms Actually mom Not Ma, but mom that term affectlon as well as authorrty Oh, yes And so Su was your mom" Yes And when you were on what type of heavy machlnery you operateWell, "mom" was two things. Each male member had R. Langford 1131 I started a backhoe Spent most of my tlme the grader And how was lt lH your and day, how would you know what to do' Well, toward the end of 1981 we started to bulld a city The ranch was down lh the valley and we started to bulld a clty up ln the There needed to be roads put ln And I was chosen volunteered to be the person to put the roads ln because of my experlence on a backhoe I didn know It was on hands on slte We had outside people come ln, contractors that llved w1th us durlng varlous stages who gave us expert advlce on how to do things We had people at the ranch who were engineers and deslgners and surveyors and we would walk the and decide where the best parts, best areas and how the clty was golng to be lald out and just started to go for lt Tell us about the population at the ranch, what degree lt lncreased, lf at all' It lncreased New people every day I mean by 10, 20s And do you know where these people were comlng from' I don I mean, from wherever they were ln the world, they started to come They got the call to come A. . on A. learning as you wentR. Langford 1132 the ranch. Q. And did you have any part yourself in sort of the management structure or decision-making process with regard to the ranch, or-were you the executor of the duties. You understand my question? Did you manage the ranch? . A. No, I didn't. Q. Did you do what you were told to do? A. Yes. Q. Were you happy doing that? A. Yes. . Why? A. Again, it was my dream, my life, my master, my everything. Q. Tell us about the master. Did there come a time when the master came out there? A. Yes. That was the whole idea that the whole drive behind building this place was to get it ready for Bhagwan to come. And we worked seven days a week, 12, 14 hours a day, every day for that first year. I mean, that carried on for all of the years there. Q. And did your master come? A. Yes, he did. Q. When? A. You know, I don't know. I don't know a day. Q. A. R. Langford 1133 Do you know the year? Specifically, no. Approximately 1982. It was before l983' There lS no tlme reference 1D my At that tlme boom, ran together I understand Before 1984? Yes Before 1984 Okay You told us that you met Su She was your heavy equipment mom' Yes And what was her authorlty ln regard to heavy equipment, as you understood lt to be then? If we had a problem, we would or cholce to make to do about how to do or personal problem or another I would go her and say what the problem, conflict or not always problem, what the ldea was you was get And how you find pardon me What qualltles observe ln her that were lmportant to you as a worker? She was very understanding She would llsten She always and would say, I ll check lt out and back to you And she was dynamlc 1n that away How do you deflne dynamlc She was a person who was assertlve and she can she always lH what we were dolng R. Langford 1134 And Savlta, the qualltles you percelved ln regard to management lH Savlta as opposed to Su, or llke Su, how you find Savrta as a manager' Savlta was a very dedicated, person She worked hard What she was dedlcated to whom" To Bhagwan, the commune How dedlcated, lf you know' Well, lS my perception of her dedlcatlon She was she worked more than anybody She worked 18 hours day, non stop, hundreds of people needlng to see her all of the tlme In the flnanclal department Now let explore your vantage polnt ln each woman Was Su what was your 1n1t1al and how lt evolve, lf at all, over t1me? Well, I wasn so close to Su lh the things And as the years passed, I became close to her and felt great affectlon for Su, how she worked And as you here today, 1995 to these ladies and gentlemen, what lS the stage of your affectlon for Su today as you test1fy? I my affectlon lS very strong for her What was her expertise, if you knowR. Langford 1135 person. Q. Do you have any grudge against Su at all? A. No. None. Q. If you had your way, would you be anyplace else in the word rather than where you are today? A. Yes. Q. All right. Let's look at Savita and your relationship with her. You fell in love with her early, before she fell in love with you; is that correct? And it's your testimony sometime through your love and persistence that love was returned; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Did there come a time when you actually began to live with her? A. Yes, I did. Q. And to the best of your recollection, when was that? A. Again, that was probably the toward the end of 1981, '82, and throughout the ranch years. Q. And beyond the ranch years? A. And beyond the ranch years. Q. In 1987? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Tell us, if you would, please, when you say "lived together," what were the living arrangements there? R. Langford 1136 Where would you llve Savlta' I llved In the area call had Jesus Grove I live there Savlta llved there and I stayed there her What does mean' I had my own resldence, my own place, but I very rarely stayed there I shared we started to get these moblle unlts come ln, these double wldes that we put together and started to bulld these houses where people could llve and stay And Jesus Grove was one of the ones the one, I belleve, to go 1D And that lS where Sheela llved, and Savlta llved there and other people who had management posltlons at the ranch And lf you hadn been ln love Savlta and Savlta ln love you, what chance d1d you have of LH Jesus Grove? I wouldn have had any I wouldn have cared llve there What lf you had cared to, could you? Probably not, no Now I going to take you on a here to 1983 okay' And tell us about the growth of the ranch Again, lt was llke the dates are tough ln my mind, but we expanded lmmensely We had about at that tlme, I sure we had three complete areas that would hold R. Langford 1137 a lot of people. People were coming in constantly. And I'm sure we had a couple of celebrations. We celebrated Bhagwan's birthday and Master's Day and Enlightenment Day. And in the summer we had a big summer celebration that lasted for two weeks. Q. Now for clarity, these holidays Master's Day, I take it, means something different than some of us would understand it to be. What was Master's Day? A. Master's Day was celebration of what I understood to be all of the masters of the world, Bhagwan, Krishnamurti, and different people like that. He designated Bhagwan chose that day, to my knowledge, like Mother's Day, this will be Master's Day, in celebration of your master. Q. And was there a day that was supreme among your holidays? A. Master's Day was a very supreme holiday. Q. When was that held? A. July 6. Q. And by 1983, how many Master's Days had you had, if you recall? A. I'm not sure. Q. In 1983, do you recall Master's Day, how many people would come from outside to join the celebration? A. It got you have up to 15,000 people was the figure I knew. R. Langford 1138 And from the twenty that you had the honor to joln when you arrlved there, by 1983 and Into 1984, approxlmately how many people were on the ranch that were sannyas1n? I don know, 3 to 4,000 people, something llke that Now, at that polnt, you have any management authorlty yourself ln running the ranch' I never been on ran the ranch And what was your and love Savlta through l984? We llved together, and we shared our time and llfe yes What do you mean Not the tradltlonal sense 9 You loved her, you' Oh, yes She loved you' In that sense, yes I sorry Don apologlze I just the questlon What do you mean' that, please, slnce you sald lt' Okay What I mean lS because our schedules were so full we hardly had tlme to see each other Especlally her schedule was constant, nonstop, llterally 14 hours a day many off the ranch to varlous parts of the world Weeks gone at a tlme And my schedule was up early together there. I mean, not in the traditional senseR. Langford 1139 morning, full days out at construction sites, doing our getting to bed early. She would be off doing something, come I wouldn't see her basically for days even though we were together Well, let me ask you now about things that you would share, such as dinner How often would you have dinner together' Not so often because again schedules were her schedule was intense, and it might be maximum once a week or four times a month even, something like that What would be a good month? What would be your speculation, what would be a good month, oh, in getting together for d1nner? Maybe have a dozen times Did you want to marry her' concept 1n our in Bhagwan That was not my question Did you want to marry her? Yes, at one point All right Now, tell me about Bhagwan and marriages Bhagwan used to give discourses and he would blast blast he would denounce the traditional family values and how they program children and people They carry over all the old baggage of parent relationships They hurt children His vision was part of a new man Marriage was the time when she Bhagwan marriage was not Langford 1140 the old tradition, a bondage in the sense that so many people were unhappy in the marriage, so many people were trapped. And his idea was to free that, to free that, make that free. How did you handle that apparent conflict between Bhagwan teaching, your great love for hlm, and your love for Savlta and your desire to marry her" Well, Bhagwan came first There wasn any question He was the master Bhagwan was and the commune second and any kind of was Was that always the ru1e? Yes, that was always the rule For you' For me For others" Yes, for others For anyone that wanted to be at the So how you handle this conflict' It wasn a untll the marrlage the marrlage arose and Tell us about the marriage Yeah The marriage was that Savlta was not an Amerlcan Many of the people at our ranch were not Amerlcan And lH order for people to stay ln America, you elther have to you have to have a vlsaranch, that was the ruleR. Langford 1141 green card, that allows you to stay here, and the best and easiest way to do that would be to marry an American Are you an American Yes, I am That was golng to be easy, then She would marry you, r1ght? Yes Is that what happened' No, that lS not what happened Why not? There was a whole perlod at the ranch were these marriages were belng arranged, arranged marrlages there was a department there that would set you up someone of your status, of your bellefs lt off that you were married, and of course I was 1n love Savlta sald, I just want to marry Savlta be easy It true love I don have to lle or do that I don feel But because Savlta was so predomlnant ln the of the ranch, she needed someone I was not educated ln the sense of college educatlon or any She lS a very quallfled person The message that I recelved, lt would be better for her they felt you could fit together as a couple and pull I . 1 R. Langford 1142 marry someone who would be more suitable to her level of management so that the appearance would be, oh, would you the fit together And what was the department that you talked about just lH your last answer' What department arranged these things' It was the Legal Servlces The Legal Serv1ces? At Rajneeshpuram Who was the head of that? To my knowledge lt was Ma Vldya So you weren allowed to marry Sav1ta? you ask her about lt' I What she tell you? She sald lt no deal It just lt for the commune It for Bhagwan It for the commune It not a deal She loves me, and that what happened We don need to be married Well, so but You are the best man, You are a man 7 She told you that? A Yeah . fLangford 1143 Q. All right.. And did she get married? A. Yes, she did. Q. And whom did she marry? A. She married a man named Pragitam, a chiropractor at the ranch. Q. Did he happen to be an American? A. Yes, he was. Q. And did you know him? A. Yes, I knew him. Q. Nice guy? A. Yes, he was a nice man. Q. Did you go to the wedding? A. I did. Q. Were you in the bridal? A. I was the best man at the wedding. Q. And how about that night? Were you the best man that night? A. No, I wasn't. Q. Were you with her that night? A. No, I was not. Q. How about the next night? Where you the best man again? A. Yes. Q. And from then on until 1987? A. Yes. R. Langford 1144 Q. All right. How about Su? Do you know if she got married? She Do you know the nature of that marr1age? She married a man called Anutosh Do you know h1m? I knew hlm, yes What type of SltUatlOn was lt compared to the sltuatlon that you had, or that Savlta had with the Prag1tam? It was the same sltuatlon convenlence marrlage And was her hubby Amer1can? Yes Now, ln 1984, you into 1984, your posltlon at the ranch change as to what your were, what you dld, your respons1h1llt1es? You recall as you were to 1984, lnto the year of the commune, what type of were you doing, perform1ng? Well, I was dolng heavy equlpment, not so much And I was dolng a lot of securlty work at the time was I was a member of the Peace Force, reserve member I wasn a full member And through that And did they live togetherR. Langford 1145 Peace Force, I became a member of a private I've forgotten the name at the moment. Q. That's okay. A. A private protection force for Bhagwan and for the commune. Q. How about your heavy machinery, heavy equipment? Were you still doing that, too? A. Yes. Q. What was your relationship with Su? I mean, your relationship on the ranch in terms of the structure, not personally? A. Su was both the mom of the heavy equipment and of the God, I can't remember the name of it. The protection service, for lack of a better name. Q. And your own personal pardon me. I shouldn't say "personal." Your own relationship in terms of a marriage, did there come a time they put the finger on you to marry somebody? A. Yes. Q. When was that? A. About 1982 beginning of '82, actually. No, it was toward the end of 1981. Q. And who did you marry? A. I married a Dutch woman named Durga. Q. How well had you known her before you got married? R. Langford 1146 Not very well other than I knew her ln Poona as just an acqualntance I knew her at the ranch as I would know many people there, just causal friend and a fellow sannyasln And at your wedding there, do you recall who was attendance? At our my wedd1ng? Yes, Durga Yeah The whole ranch was there It was the ever performed at the ranch And wlthout being about your feeling about Savlta, what was your thought at was there and I lt I was doing lt for On a personal upon you your felt the tlme of this marr1age? sad I was sad It wasn Savlta but my master and my commune level, what was what was the lmpact marrlage to Durga? Personally, how you Personal level, I was always devastated I didn marry Savlta Now, on a level you llve your life and on you' It was commune allve and keep I should say of your falth and how phllosophy, what lmpact lt have To marry Durga was to keep the Bhagwan there and keep her there that point I surrendered to the whole facade laLangford 1147 It was 100 percent So you had no lack ln enthusiasm ln terms of the marr1age? You went lnto lt on the one level? On the one level, yes as a commune member and a sannyasln Now, there come a time when you and Durga ever llved together' We always llved together flguratlvely She had a room at the ranch and I kept there that a facade kept my clothes and some shoes and toothbrush there so that lf or anyone ever questioned, yes, I llved there know to do that' Agaln Legal Servlces We had suggestlons were always there what to do, what to keep and ln closets and how to make appear real Were you actually ln that regard with Rajneesh Legal Yes Tell the jury about that Perlodlcally we had to go to an INS lntervlew for Durga legal status to be able to stay ln the country Perlodlcally we would go to the Legal Services and they would questlon us on things that INS offlcers may ask, llke Okay. Now when you say, "figurativelyR. Langford 1148 what side of the bed does your wife sleep on. What is your toothbrush. We were supposed to in the meantime become totally comfortable and familiar with these things so we could answer truthfully these questions. Q. If you hadn't been to these drills, would you have known the correct answers to the questions about Durga? A. No. Q. What if they asked you about Savita? Would you have known that? A. Oh, sure. Q. Did you have any responsibility in regard to the management of the Rajneesh Legal Services, anything to do with the immigration strategy other than being a part of it? A. Not the management. But I was part of a lawsuit that was put against Durga and I were included in the lawsuit against the INS, U.S. Government. Q. And were you asked to consent to be in it or were you told you were going to be in it, if there is any difference? A. There wasn't a difference. Q. Explain that to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Why wasn't there any difference? A. I don't remember being asked to do it. My name came out in this our names came out in this lawsuit. And, I R. Langford 1149 mean, that me then, but lt agaln, lt always llke lS what the commune needs, lS what needs to keep Bhagwan here Okay Take the step and go through lt Was there ever any doubt ln your that you wouldn comply any request llke that or any request that would keep the ranch together? And why was that' It hard to say now why that was Back ln 1984 ln 1984, not 1995 It was my devotlon to love and surrender, 1D belng there was everything, totally deallng with at the ranch, you have any lH regard to any structures or you have knowledge of structures that were bullt ln that regard? Yes I worked on a shelter, an underground shelter for Bhagwan to be put lnto ln case the INS people showed up to take away what you sald 15 a shelter so the ladies and gentlemen understand more preclsely, lf you woul please All At Jesus Grove Jesus Grove, lt a complex a few rooms I meanNow, in regards to the immigration the way R. Langford 1150 the house And the slde backyard, we dug a large about the slze perhaps of almost the slze of this front of courtroom here roughly from about where Mr Reardon lS to me, and wall to wall maybe not qulte that That lS a little In lt we made concrete bunker and we put all the things that you need, running water, showers We class because Bhagwan as much you could ln an underground shelter, so Bhagwan would be very comfortable there lf he had to spend a day or week or whatever tlme lt was And then we closed the earth back on top of lt and made lt look like lawns and trees and I worked on that Through Jesus Grove In there was a I think lt was false wall You went through a false wall and then down set of stalrs lnto this bunker And how through false wall was one to get to underground bunker from the house 1tself? Through th1s wall What manner of access' He went ln you came lnto the entrance of Jesus Grove and went through Sheela bedroom In her bedroom was the false wall to get down lnto the bunker Was there a tunnel' Oh, yes. There was a tunnel from the bunker out . . . a$ . up Q. How was once again access to this areaR. Langford 1151 perhaps about 50 feet, thereabouts, ln length, was a pipe a culvert plpe that you would have to crawl through to get out ln lt It went out Into a creek area, of a wilderness area that was Jesus Grove All I golng to dlrect your attentlon into 1984 and throughout that fall and wlnter lnto 1985 Okay All Do you have any knowledge of an lnvestlgatlon lnvestlgatlon of the ranch that threatened uncover what was going on' When you galn that knowledge' Well, for sure when this lawsult came out because I was on lt And we were there was questlonlng about Bhagwan statusfew tlmes to Portland for vlsa for INS purpose And there were also, llke, these of ralds that we were always prepared for the INS to come swooplng down upon us and we would do these that would be ln for that Tell us, what were those dr11ls? Sometlmes there would he a man who I don really know who he was the name Tom Clancy comes to who would come out to the ranch as though he was some of offlcer the INS or somewhere Oh, yesR. Langford 1152 We had these outposts, securlty posts at the top of the ranch, which was about five mlles from the maln part of the ranch, and they would say, Oh, guy 1 coming And then we had Motorola radios We would make this general statement that the Motorola I mean, INS lS comlng Any people that were not legally there or questionable, they would just go walk off lnto the for the next few hours and then come back when lt was all clear, lt was okay was how you were to deal the people' Yes And your with Savlta lh 1984 all the way through just from the first tlme you started to llve together, that contlnue from l984? Yes And would there come a tlme when at when you were together you would dlscuss the sltuatlon and what was golnq on there? No, not so much I would discuss about how uncomfortable I felt so many tlmes to fake these Durga when I really wanted to be with her about INS Okay And when you would come to her these tlmes and ask her share her your anxlety about matters and LnLangford 1153 your own personal scruples what, If would she say to you? She would just say, It for the communlty, your master You are strong You can push through lt Was that to be sald about you a lot by her' Whenever I was ln doubt, yes She would say that you have occaslon to be lH doubt' Not yes Mainly the hardest part, the INS and later other We get to the other later Let me dlrect your attentlon to that tlme, though there come a time when you ln asking her questlons and you got a response that taught you how you should handle things from then on' Yes Yes or no? Yes What was lt' There was a tlme when I had been some questlons about what was golng on, and I I don remember the clrcumstances, flnanclally how were And she told me lt was none of my buslness and don be concerned So the followlng day I was at work and I hurt myself and out the end of my nose and that same I came home She sald, See what you get for belng nosy? So that R. Langford 1154 was Was that the end of that' Yeah That was the end of me to out or ask questlons about what was golng on ln any manner And restralnt of yours lasted from that date all through the ex1stence of the ranch, some exceptions? Certalnly, lt did 1984 I am golng to take you lnto 1984 and through lt, 1985 Do you recall ln 1985, the year of the Byron case what lt was llke on the ranch? What were you doing ln the winter and early of 19859 What were you doing on the ranch" What were your jobs that you what were your jobs on the ranch? At that polnt I was much more into securlty and actually lt was called the Rajneesh Security Force That was the name of the protection that what I said earller It was Rajneesh Security Force I was dolng a lot of work with the Rajneesh Security Force Were they armed" Yeah, they were armed Tell us about that or you were armed' Yes I became a weapons ln people I'm not sure what you meanR. Langford 1155 how to handle guns properly, primarily handguns but also rifles. And at one point we had about 50 or 60 people and every day we would go up and when I say, go up, would go to a range that was set up for practice, how to shoot, how to handle weapons safely And then there was the security team setup that would guard Bhagwan house and the electlon hall where he spoke And there would be rotatlng tlmes that we all worked ln area Okay What type of gun you have' We had a lot of guns We had revolvers, handguns, had SEURmlaUt0matlC Uzls, we had long range powered rlfles, and llke that And to your knowledge were all of these weapons legally purchased' Yes They were legally purchased serlal numbers And what role, lf any, Su have lH this sltuatlon' Su was the mom of the security force She was your mom there, too? Yeah How about Savlta' Savlta, she hardly had tlme for that But she also a ln about Rajneesh Why she hardly have tlme for the weaponsDid they have serial numbersR. Langford 1156 A. She was off doing the management level things. I don't know. Q. What, if any, relationship did Savita have to the finances at the ranch at that point? A. She was the person most knowledgeable about the finances at the ranch. Q. Incidentally, in terms of the very top of the ranch from Bhagwan, you put him number one, okay? Who was number two? A. Sheela was absolutely number two. Q. Who was number three? A. Number three, Savita would go to see Bhagwan if Sheela was not available. Q. Number four? A. It would be Vidya. Q. Number five? A. From there on down it was a mix, but Su was right there, too, at the head toward the end of the ranch, the upper echelon of the ashram. Q. And where were you? A. I was just middle management person who helped run the equipment and ran I wasn't in management. Q. Okay. Where was Yogini? A. Yogini was the same as I was. We were Q. Where was Ava? R. Langford 1157 Same as us Does the name Helen Byron mean to you' It does What' Helen Byron was a woman I belleve a sannyasln who had a lawsuit agalnst the commune because she sald that she had lent a large sum of money to the commune lS my and the commune sald no, she had not had There was a trlal here ln Portland over the circumstances that Now, ln terms of the legal process ln that case, you have to do lt? Where were you physically durlng that case' I was ln Portland And where was Ava' I was Ava ln Portland And where was YOglHl7 The three of us were together And where were you Were you actually here ln Portland or just We weren here, but we had an apartment here we could go to lf we needed to go undercover, so to speak assignments? A. No Langford 1158 We as sannyaslns, we always wore red clothing, malas, and we were very obvlous walking down the street So lf we wanted to be unobvlous for whatever reason, we had an apartment where we could change our clothes lnto tradltlonal and walk the streets lH I suppose as normal people When you say apartment," what apartment? Do you know where lt was, what lt was called' I don remember lt, I mean the name exactly now But lf I saw lt, I would know lt And how you pay for For Stuff of the ranch Do you know where that money came from' Yeah It came from Savlta Okay Now, the Byron case came to a concluslon, that correctgood one for the ranch, was lt' No, lt wasn there come a tlme at the concluslon of the Byron case when you were ordered to return to the ranch' Yes And yougot money when we went out to buy thingsYes R. Langford 1159 And, slr, did there come a tlme when you were called to a unlque meetlng on the ranch' MR WAX Your Honor, I golng to object to the leadlng at point you the MR REARDON I ll be glad to rephrase, thank (By Mr Reardon) Do you recall golng to a meeting at ranch' MR WEATHERHEAD leadlng, Your Honor (By Mr Reardon) What, lf did you do when you got back to the ranch" We can do any way Yes, there was I attended a meetlng Where was that meeting' That meetlng was ln Jesus Grove ln Sheela bedroom Thank you And who was there, to the best of your There were many people there There was maybe Don speak too quickly for Mr there There was the people that I remembered, there was myself, Sheela, Su, Jayanada, Patlpadma MR WAX Can we have that spelled, Your Honor' THE WITNESS a 1 a MR REARDON a 1 a THE WITNESS Patlpadma Padma was also there Langford 1160 woman name Padma And others, was there, Ava, Yoglnl, and and others that I not clear on who they were (By Mr Reardon) What lf any, role Savlta or Su play ln that meeting' MR WEATHERHEAD I object, our Honor foundatlon for the question (By Mr Reardon) Was Savlta there' I don remember lf Savlta was there Was Su there' Su was there I want you to tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury your recollectlons of that meetlng on the ranch after you were called to Do you understand the quest1on? remember Sheela comlng ln very angry about this case of loslng money And to my knowledge, she had been up to see Bhagwan and had returned She was qulte angry And she sald she there was group of people ln the room where she sald she gave a speech She sald this lS Sheela sald, We are golng to have to do some would lnclude perhaps murderlng some people and some enemles of the commune, was the term she used And lt was a very serious meetlng Everyone was llke murder people, lt wasn lt was heavy, very heavy What does heavy mean to youYes. It's all sometime a bit of a blur, but I .. Langford A. Serious, heavy all over your body in things Have you ever been to a meetlng like your l1fe' Were you about to attend a number of Yes, I was MR WAX Your Honor, object to ask that be stricken THE COURT Overruled 1161 hearing these that before them? the leadlng and (By Mr Reardon) Slr, durlng that meetlng, what was dlscussed spec1f1cally? And dlrect your attentlon only to Charles Turner And lH terms of that meetlng at the MR WEATHERHEAD I Object MR REARDON Can have lt both ways THE COURT I golng to overrule the objectlon Go ahead THE WITNESS Charles Turner was the Attorney ln charge of the lnvestlgatlon of I guess the INS lnvestlgatlon of the ranch of Bhagwan status, of all He was a threat The way Sheela that I remember lt, that he was a threat to Bhagwan belng deported, being arrested, belng deported and leavlng the commune And Sheela ln her very serlous, dramatlc way commune Langford 1162 sald he would have to be And that what this meetlng was about (By Mr Reardon) And what, lf Su say durlng this meet1ng? Well, no one responded at that tlme We were all shocked And Su at one point sald that you have to make a for your master and for the commune You have to be strong and get up and do what needs to be done paraphraslng, but lt was to effect, that stand up and be strong and make your declslon And after that there was an acknowledgment from some people 1U that room that they were ln lt and others were not observations, and who do you recall was not' I lt better to say who I recall was not lh lt, because the rest stayed for the meetlng I can start that Answer the questlon as best you can, Patlpadma and Padma were ln tears and shocked and were not ln lt, to the best of my knowledge Jayanada, who was Sheela husband, sald, She lS crazy I out of here And I belleve Bodhi, yes, who was Vldya husband was there and also couldn handle lt And the rest of us stayed And were there dlscusslon about the means to the was to occuryou recall as being in it, from your . . . Langford 1163 Yes And what was that I sorry How" What was that d1scuss1on? How the were to occur' Yes What were they to occur' Do you know what 1nstrumental1t1es? Turner And what was that After the meeting had sort of up a bit ln the sense of we had I had belng there, I suggested that Texas would be a place where guns could be acgulred because they needed to be they couldn he guns from the ranch Why' Because they were all reglstered weapons I don know Why Texas' Well, the way I remember lt, Sheela was just throwlng these out there, what could be done How could lt be done And there was a woman there, Rlkta, who was from Texas and I knew that. And I sald, "Rlkta lS from Texas. She can go there and get some guns And Sheela says, "OhGuns. Guns were discussed to he used to kill Charles R. Langford 1164 yeah, that lS a good ldea, and proceeded to jump on that And the plan evolved that Rlkta and Shanti Bhadra would go to Texas and look for guns And what type of guns' you have any dlscusslon or say anything yourself' Yes They asked me because I had been uslng guns for the last year and a half at that time or more, two years what of guns And I sald, Well, there lS 357 magnums, they have a lot of power There lS Rugers, they are another good name, a good gun I was just saylng these And when you referred, for preclslon sake here, abo Rlkta being there, you mean ln the commune or at the Rlkta was at the meeting Shantl Bhadra was at the meeting Now, to the best of your recollectlon was dlscusslon about Turner and about guns supplemented elther at that meetlng or other meetings by the conslderatlon of of Turner' Yes lt was There was Can you tell what whether that was also this meetlng, the best of your recollect1on? s, lt was, to the best of my recollection, the meetlng . . A. . I Q. ut meetingR. Langford 1165 And tell us what you remember about that, progressed lh meetlng so now we had people who were golng to acquire guns Now we needed a team that would go and see where Mr Turner llved and get some ldeas on how could he done And that team was Ava and Alma, and that lS all I remember Was Samadhl there' I am not 100 percent sure Samadhl was there Was she at a subsequent meeting' She was, yes She was part of the surveillance team some polnt Was there another type of team that was selected' Now, when you say so called team, who called that' Sheela called lt a team Who was on that' lt was Shantl Bhadra Su, and there was another person that I can remember How about you' What you volunteer to do, other than what you have already sald' My role was when the guns came, that I would check them out and make sure they functioned and were usable would make sllencers for them so they could be sllenced Yes. The so-called hit team was selected. "so Langford 1166 And yes that lS my role Now, there occur then a serles of that you attended ln furtherance of the agreement that you reached at meet1ng? Yes WAX to the leading EARDON I asked where WAX I asked the questlon THE COURT I golng to overrule the objectlon REARDON Whatever the Judge says that occurred (By Mr Reardon) And and what, lf any, role Savlta or Su play ln those The both attended many of those MR WAX Your Honor, objectlon and ask for as to date, tlme, place MR REARDON Cross examlnatlon, Your Honor THE COURT Go ahead (By Mr Reardon) And, there come a time when there was a series of meetings after the guns were purchased' Yes you attend' YesTHE COURT: Yes, there was a series of other Langford 1167 Savlta attend' Yes, she Su attend' Yes, she And what was the dlscusslon at those meet1ngs? There were varlous meetings, but the dlscusslon was one meeting occurred where the guns weren the correct guns for job There was a meetlng that occurred approxlmately a week later from the meetlng Where lt take place? In Sheela bedroom In Sheela bedroom ln Jesus Grove All And at meetlng, Rlkta and Shantl Bhadra had gone to Texas and had gotten guns I had gone to Portland and p1cked up Shantl Bhadra at the Greyhound bus station and drlven her back to the ranch these guns And I took them lnto Jesus Grove to Sheela bedroom and a meetlng was called to say that the guns were here And who was at that meeting' To the best of my knowledge, Shanti Bhadra and myself Su and Savlta and Yoglnl, Alma Sheela People that were at the prevlous meetlng Let me ask you about the guns themselves How many Where did all of these meetings take placeR. Langford 1168 them were there, if you recall? A. There were five guns. Q. Were they given a phrase to describe them? A. Yes. They were called the "five easy pieces," in reference to a movie. Q. What movie? A. I think it's a Jack Nicholson movie. Q. What was the title of the move? A. Five Easy Pieces. Q. Who gave it that characterization? A. Sheela did. Q. Now, let me my friend has good idea in terms of specificity. Tell the ladies and gentlemen these meetings in a sense you said many meetings. What happened over a period of time after the first meeting that these series of meetings occurred? A. It was about a six-week f- actually, it was a little longer. It was a two-month period of time when these meetings happened. Well, the meeting in this killer I mean in the Charles Turner killer murder case meetings occurred approximately in the six-week time. There was always constant meetings in other areas that were also ongoing or in these meetings through a two-month time right up to the period of time. Q. During this time were you living with Savita? R. Langford 1169 Yes When you would go home at night after these hard days, wouldn you dlscuss what happened at those No, we would not, not much Sometlmes we would dlscuss that were uncomfortable, but lH general o, we dlscuss these How about the themselves, how were these guns be bought' MR WEATHERHEAD Object on Your Honor MR REARDON How where the guns to be bought' THE COURT Overruled THE WITNESS The guns were to be purchased money supplled by the commune from funds that (By Mr Reardon) Then don say lt lf you don know By whom ln the commune' Savlta was to supply the money for the guns MR WEATHERHEAD Objectlon Foundatlon move strike No foundatlon for knowledge of that, Your Honor THE COURT Overruled THE WITNESS It sorry MR REARDON Not at all The Judge ruled By Mr Reardon) D1d there come a tlme when there well, wait, I don't know if the funds were illegal Langford 1170 were a serles of meetings after of Charles Turner occurred" Yes you attend those meetings' Yes Where were they held? sheela bedroom And who attended them" Agaln the same people that I mentioned prevlously You must mentlon them again to the best of your recollectlon That the best of my recollection There possibly could have been others And there come a tlme when there was a to New York as a result of these meet1ngs? Yes And who went there' Sheela, Rlkta and Shantl Bhadra Who else, lf you remember? That all I remember And why they go there' Well they had some ranch buslness, some technical buslness to do there from the ranch But at the meeting I sald where the guns could not be used and explalned why Sheela was there, Su and Savita were there, Alma, Ava Langford 1171 had to deal these were revolvers and they could not be used with sllencers because as much nolse came out of the slde and the back of the guns and they were no good I sald, You needed a dlfferent of a gun Then Sheela said, Flne, we get them ln New York What of guns, by your measure, was needed' It would be a closed chamber gun, meaning lt wouldn removable chamber, but lt would be closed How you know this' Were there any closed chamber guns on the ranch' Yes Why you use those' Agaln, they belonged to the Peace Forces the securlty force Did they have serlal numbers? Yes, they did Let talk about you and the guns themselves when they came back to the ranch you come lH possesslon of them at one point' Yes Llke I sald, I went to Portland and plcked Shantl Bhadra and the guns up, brought them back to the ranch, took them to Sheela bedroom and said that I would take care of them and put them ln a safe place Q. youThrough my training at the ranch Langford 1172 Yes I Where you put them" I put them ln a A frame ln an unused that was ln a resldentlal area that was back set back a ln an area called Alan Watts, of area How you transport them' In my truck 1U I put them ln a toolbox and wrapped some around them and carrled them lH my truck What were you glven ln regard to them' What, lf anything, were you to do them' ln order and make sllencers for them What about those serlal numbers' Oh yes And to take the serlal numbers off There are serial numbers on weapons and I had to take the serlal numbers off Had you ever done that before? How you think you were golng to do that' I know I was golng to experlment There was had some battery acld and a grinder I know how I was golng to do lt but I trled you trytest fire the weapons and make sure they were R. Langford 1173 Q. Were you successful? A. No. THE COURT: _All right. This is a good time to take our morning recess, so we will be in recess for 20 minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Counsel remain a moment. MR. REARDON: May the witness be excused? THE COURT: Yes. I'm going to meet with counsel and the defendants in the conference room right behind us. (Discussion in the conference room outside the presence of the juryz) THE Be seated. While we are waiting, let me kind of express to counsel where I think there is some perhaps disagreement. If I have been asking a series of questions about the weather and I suddenly say to a witness, "What time is it," that change in subject does not amount to a leading question. But it would become a leading question if I was to say, "It's 10:30, isn't it?" That is the leading question because it suggests the answer. What I think counsel is concerned about is suggestion of a topic or suggestion of a name so that Excuse me. We will get back to this in a moment. Mr. Turner, have a seat. Let the record show that over the course of 1174 yesterday and today I have become aware of the fact that there was some lssue of some nature relatlve to Mr Turner appearance as a wltness whom my lS he lS under subpoena MR REARDON That lS correct THE COURT I that Mr Turner was here yesterday, asked to see me and that was decllned, because do not feel that lt lS &ppIOPrlatEUR for the Judge to meet ex parte So I not meet Mr Turner and I don know what he came to see me about I by counsel that there 15 some LSSUE over appearance and when, and that that was not belng resolved, and therefore I thought rather than just out of control some way or another that lt would be approprlate for me to have a meetlng such as to see lf we could resolve and move on the trlal Mr Turner, I don lt lS not necessary that you make any response except that lt lS necessary that you respond to the subpoena to be here when dlrected And lf there are reasons why you cannot be or you feel that lS an abuse of the subpoena power, then there are certalnly ways ln to that to the Court attentlon so that I can conslder whether or not there lS any of abUSlVe use of the subpoena or unreasonable use 1175 subpoena So we can just back off to that of a sltuatlon, or we can try and work lt ought on a more causal basls, lf not lnformal here I really not aware of what the problem lS and what I should be MR REARDON I Judge, what we would llke to do lS to just have matter resolved completely and very clearly here, the obllgatlon that lS lmposed upon me ln case to proceed case The Court and counsel of course are aware of our tlmetable and also what lS happenlng thus far ln the case and how are gOlDg and our fervent deslre to try and accommodate nobody would know better than Charlle Turner hlmself from own vast experlence from the Unlted States Attorney lH a long and career as a trlal lawyer for the Justlce Department and here But how often we come up short, desplte our most fervent attentlon to try and accommodate from all over I recelved a from counsel from Seattle yesterday who sald he had been lh a lot of cases but ln th1S type of case of he never had lt so plnpolnted because of tlme and very busy schedule on both coasts was extremely to us to able to accommodate hour pSIl0d I took every credlt for that and Wlp1176 brow Only through a complete stroke of luck I was able accommodate We have been I guess that by analogy to try and accommodate Mr Turner very busy schedule THE COURT When do you need him' MR REARDON I would have put on had he been avallable And I had to put on another wltness that 15 going to be on for some tlme now because lH my ln leadrng case I saw to do that to start Anuglten currently on the stand Mr Turner would have been off and on had a tremendous clash He 1S a very busy man and a busy schedule I respect that I have a supersedlng obllgatlon by my oath and ln trial to call lt when I see lt So I have to ask I don even we need make mentlon of lt, but I would say we need Mr Turner certainly after lunch today as soon as they are as soon as I Mr Langford and my colleagues THE COURT How much more time do you have on your direct' MR REARDON Well, you can see where we are ln just the tlme I golng to up certalnly an hour, maybe less . 1177 THE COURT All And you have any better f1x? I don know who 15 golng to cross examlne wltness MR WAX Glven the fact that the dlrect lS golng longer than we heard earlier, that I would expand my potentlal cross examlnatlon I we are probably looklng at somewhere closer to two, three hours rather than one to two And Mr Weatherhead lS golng to be followlng questlons of own MR WEATHERHEAD I talk faster than elther these two gentlemen, Your Honor would be on the stand MR REARDON I would say my direct, half an hour, lf that And we have already dlscussed areas, of course, lH terms of my frlend Mr Wax would llke to go I don he lS golng to be able to If he lS not going to be able to, that might I don want to presume he would be to be to use up that they afternoon available It might the length adequate THE COURT It looks to me llke you are qolng most of the rest of thle on dlrect and are golng to use up a large segment of the on cross And do you have other wltnesses to you? . of THE COURT: Tell me how long you feel Mr. Turner . . 1178 MR REARDON Yes, we sure do I would take out of he lS out of order now, of course, but we don know ln cases there lS out of order and out of order THE COURT That all What I rather than We obvlously have extenslve further testlmony out of wltness It doesn't really glve me a feel of havlng a whole lot of time left, partlcularly lf we stop early today for the other purpose So my suggestlon Is that your schedule? MR TURNER Your Honor, could I be heard on th1s matter" THE COURT Yes That lS your option MR TURNER Well, Mr Reardon seen to recount my vast experlence ln terms, I going to call upon that experlence I want to say to the Court that over 31 years as a federal prosecutor I have dealt murderers and thleves and drug dealers, con men, tax evaders and so I have never treated anybody, anybody, the way I have been treated by Mr Reardon, who was supposed to have been a colleague of mine. Not lh 31 years have I ever treated anybody the way man treated me would be to Mr. Turner to be available to us Monday on. 1179 I tried to accommodate him from the very beginning of this case And I just want to recount this for the Court I let him in my house with Mr Glick for two and a half hours I gave him an opportunity to review notebooks with documents that I have collected over the years because they apparently couldn find those same documents in the files of the United States Attorney Office his request, I photocopied documents at my expense out of those notebooks and furnished those to Mr Reardon I told Mr Reardon and his assistant, Ms Murray, what my schedule was for this week and I could be here every day except two half days The half days being this afternoon and yesterday afternoon I had a hired somebody from California to come up here, an accountant I had to see that person Mr Reardon asked me to come down early on Monday morning to meet with him for another pretrial conference Three pretrial conferences He asked me to come down at quarter of 12 00 He said this is his quote I will pop out of the courtroom and talk to you He didn pop out of the courtroom He came out five after 12 00, I at a meter, I got a ticketlongstanding appointment with a client in which we had 1180 stay Mr Reardon, the pretrlal conference Then he asked me to come back at 1 00 clock I came back at 1 00 clock I walted ln Mr Hoevet offlce all day I wasn called I was ready to Tuesday, but there was no court I sald I was ready to testify Wednesday I came down I walted ln Mr Hoevet offlce was summoned to come over here I came over here There were people ln the wltness room to before me, one of whom had been flve days I have never done that to anybody Another one who had been three days So I knew I wasn going to get on Mr Reardon and I had, for want of a better term, a falrly heated dlscusslon ln the corridor about he was golng to call me ln the afternoon sald, I have an appolntment I lnformed you about lt sald, I can I have another appolntment Thursday afternoon and I rearranged my schedule Thursday I sald I would be avallable He saidclock I told hlm, I can be here I told you about lt I told Ms Murray about lt So I wasn avallable I called Ms Murray agaln last this. He told me he wasn't going to call 1181 told her I would be avallable to Would you please call me lf you need me' I got a call from her and I came down the ldea I going to be This afternoon, Your Honor, I have an appointment to help my wife She 15 an antlque dealer THE COURT Don worry about that MR TURNER I promlsed her I would do She has a truck load of furnlture and I have got to do some THE COURT That lS all We won call you afternoon He asked me, for example, to do some personal lnvestlgatlon for ln the case I that Lnvestlgatlon on my own tlme I had my wlfe go out and verlfy what lt lS that we did to out where the photographs were taken of my house I trled to accommodate man, I trled accommodate Mr I only ask and I asked Mr Reardon, I told I not as good as he 13 and I probably couldn carry jock on my best day But I told hlm, I have wltnesses from the stand and have called wltnesses out of order Any tlme you have a case of 25 or more wltnesses, the whole falls apart MR. TURNER: I tried to accommodate Mr. Reardon. to I 1182 because of schedullng problems I asked 1f he would do that He told me no, he lt golng to have a schedule and he adhere to lt That 15 and prerogative I only ask Your Honor for some conslderatlon I have obllgatlon I told I was ready to testify Frlday He sald there 15 not going to be court I know that and maybe Mr Reardon know that elther The fact of the matter lS I have obllgatlon I must adhere to THE COURT That flue can testify today It going to be short Apparently Mr Wax has a few, lf any, questlons I don want to down to no questlons He he doesn have very much or maybe none So I would ask the Court 1f I can THE COURT Rather than Monday' MR TURNER Well, Monday Your Honor, and I told Mr Reardon and I told Ms Murray too, a college classmate of mlne there aren too many of those, I have one and I promised I would take and his wlfe down the Deschutes Rlver They are golng to be at my house on Monday when we are leavlng to go down the Deschutes Rlver I could reschedule lt for a half day laterMR. TURNER: I respectfully ask the Court if I 1183 here the th1ng Monday It going to be lnconvenlent, but I can do lt Agaln, I have tried to accommodate Mr Reardon, but he has way of dolng and lt was dlfferent than the way I tried cases THE COURT All Well TURNER I say flnally, 1f I come down Monday, I do, Your Honor, lf I do that be the fourth tlme I have come down here THE COURT Okay You would rather between now and noon or whatever' MR TURNER I would like to do that If I could THE COURT I can assure you that your testlmony he done by noon It seems to me the more approprlate tlme would he Monday MR TURNER All THE COURT Then we make sure that lrrespectlve of whether there rs another wltness on the stand or not, you start 9 00 clock on Monday and we take your testlmony then MR TURNER All Thank you THE COURT All Thank you REARDON Thank you, Judge THE COURT All I think we have been about 15 minutes on the recess We will take another 1184 minutes. MR. WAX: Your Honor, with respect to the comments making about leading, I appreciate THE COURT: Excuse me. I would like to find that now and I do want your response. The issue that you are really dealing with in my experience and the way I was taught about leading questions is not a question that suggests an answer but that brings forth a topic. Now, that can be objected to as to the form of the question. I'm not sure it's ever a leading question. The objection or let's give an example. In this case is someone was testifying that this person, this person, and this person were at the meeting. And then as you properly objected, whenever an attempt was made, really hadn't been made to say, "Well, was Su there or was Savita there?" Now and I sustained those because those then are questions which and it depends on how the question is going, whether that is giving information to the witness from which the witness is then expected to respond. That is a different issue than leading. And so and I'm not denying your objections on the basis that you hadn't called the right objection, understand that. I do not feel they were leading questions. 1185 Was there a meetlng? That 1S not to me a leadlng questlon But lf the lS lost ln somewhere along the llne a questlon lS asked, Don you remember a meetlng ln the of June, bang Now we are feedlng lnformatlon to the wltness from counsel and that 15 lmproper 1HfOrmatlOH But to just ask, Was there a meetlng, was there a serles of and that sort of to me 15 not a leadlng questlon, nor lS lt lmproper or mlsformed Now, that lS the stance that I'm uslng to know what your feellng LS because I am to the fact you don llke to keep up and questlons or objectlons when perhaps we are really not communlcatlng the standard upon these questlons are belng presented MR WAX I appreclate that, Judge I don't that I objected to the questlon, was there a meetlng I was to, was there a serles of And I see that as a very dlfference ln case, because one of the Issues of fact, as we see lt, lS whether there was a meetlng, two three or And one of the that we percelve the Government lS dolng lS creatlng facts by questlon, was you. And I don't want you I know what I would like a 1186 there a serles of And we are seelng that ln case as to the beatlng your wlfe type of And that lS a and that 15 why we are so to that LSSUS MR REARDON I have a posltlon on too, lf you glve me a chance THE COURT I glve you a chance understand where you are C0mlng from Now, the way I heard that queStlOH and he corrected lt and you heard a serles and I heard a And I would have sustalned your to the of meetlng lt was He rephrased the questlon anyway, so we were both safe, so to speak But lf I had heard what you Sald, a serles of I would have SUStalH8d your He corrected that, so now ahead and respond MR REARDON Well, Judge, some of these questlons, I know they are bothersome to counsel because they strategy, that would seek to also would lf I were elther of these ladles, to and parse out and ask what you had for lunch I understand that That lS for cross examlnatlon The fact lS there were a serles of I wouldn be that And he asked when they were and I tracked lt to when 1187 happened Parse out, You sald on dlrect examlnatlon so and so, let's look at more That lS for them on cross and not me on dlrect THE COURT There lS a place ln between the two of you There really So my purpose of dlscusslon lS to aVOld ln the attorneys of where I am COmlHg from because I want you to know where I comlng from If that LS a mlstake, there 15 an easy way to correct that Not easy, but there lS a way to revlew that But I want you to know when you are of these objectlons that lS the standard I uslng Generally lt lS not a leadlng qU9StlOn But lt may be the beatlng type of questlons I sustaln the REARDON Your Honor, I do have dllemma, too We all have as we are You know, what happens ln a courtroom lS not what happened LH real llfe anyway lS a structure that we try to exerclse due process under our system, so what these people actually vlewed and what they heard and what they saw these ladles do and say has been truncated, lt been truncated as the documents It has deleted at been truncated support of rebuttal presumptlon, on how turn out at the trlal The Court was very clear and relterated durlng the process of brlef trlal motlons, and even the . . . . . . is1188 trlal that you were you described this lce that we are all on, we are all aware of I we have been honorlng everyone has been to honor lt to the letter and the And that has caused an obllgatlon on my part, for example, to and about Mr Turner when I wouldn dream ordlnarlly of dolng that sort of direct examlnatlon under ordlnary clrcumstances, would actually could be objectlonable can certarnly see So my frlend Mr Weatherhead, when objected and you overruled because I was saylng, Look, you talking about this THE COURT I just as soon you wouldn make that of comment Because that the jury doesn't know where you are comlng from that of comment can rule on these MR REARDON It was my reflex was unsuccessful and I apologlze for that, to cut out stuff back and forth between counsel on the record about speaklng objectlons THE COURT The same as you brought up the other day, let not have speaklng objectlons MR REARDON Yes THE Leave lt both ways . . I . he can't have it both ways," I'm trying when they are . I 1189 WEATHERHEAD May I my two cents 1H9 THE COURT Sure WEATHERHEAD One of the reasons that I get my back halrs up when I hear about a serles of as sort of generallty about who was at a serles of We have heard from several of the wltnesses about a whole lot of Some of them may be lnnocent some of them 404 some of them may be Turner meetings And I am concerned about the for confuslon where ln vlew of the rullnq that I sought and got, I can fully lnqulre In other words, to what extent I Savlta sald you were at a serles of between June 1 and June 14 I I have a lnqulre to a certaln degree to fix on whether Turner was the subject of those But I think lt lncumbent on the Government to try and focus he was dolng so when I objected, and the mlnute I I I sald to myself, Whoops, we are all lH the same boat on that one, rowlng the same boat That lS my problem when we get ln a serles we got off the focus what brought us here THE COURT That lS a good polnt, and I that wherever the confusion between that MR. 5 MR. 2 be able to say, "Wait a minute, there was a series of to 1 1190 have to do trlal, and so I you were doing better wltness ln saylng where Mr Turner was dlscussed, where Mr Turner, and I think lf you do that MR REARDON I ll contlnue that, of course I add for the record that ln fact these durlng tlme and the evidence has come out about relationships and what lS golng on here, that durlng these were They were 404(b) kept saylng now people discussing 404(b), we turned lt lnto the art form legally there were about other enough for people ten years later to say, By the way, when you get on there, don dlscuss It very and I know the Court LS aware of that That lS tough That lS our obllgatlon We bear lt and we are happy to In terms of prlorlty that ought to be put the record, people are sweating blood to tell the truth ten years ago Now, he can say this and that happy the word cult was ruled on by the Court, has never been an lssue, so lt has been a non lssue In terms of the mEURm0rleS of the people trying to relate to the jury the best they can truthfully what they observed, boy, 1t's tough I don't envy anyone belng on that dock. That's . . I people on the list and that is the really it's hard . do it . in . I'm R. Langford 1191 part of the reallty that we are deallng MR TURNER And those were comblnatlon they clumped everything That lS the way the was lH form, a form to we may, as we are keeplng our powder dry at this point, ask the Court to return to, on how the evldence what evldence has been lost at point and that which may be lost further THE COURT Okay (Recess) (Jury In open court THE COURT Mr Reardon By Mr Reardon) Slr, you yourself, other than that to you already what were you glven ln regard to matter, the matter of Mr Turner' I was ln charge of guns and maklng sllencer and maklng sure the weapons would all be ln order How you make s1lencers? Well, I couldn make a sllencer for these guns trled How d1d you try' The only I really trled I some readlng about sllencers and lt lnvolved qulte a lot of and that I had no knowledge or equlpment R. Langford 1192 to do lt with And I the only thing I was to take I read ln a book you can put potato would sllence I that one day at the range and put a potato on lt and flred lt and lt just made as much noise as anything So that was out What type of potato you use? that you try else? No, I Now, durlng all of tlme ln June when Savlta was there, were you staying her together' Yes, I was matters her at or any tlme, or would you try to' No I wouldn try to And other than one tlme I was feeling very anxious about the whole thing At that polnt she told me to go tell Sheela about my anxletles Before she sald that to you, what you say to her? I sald I was anxlous man, I was Why? scared about that was golng What she say to you? And she told me to go and tell Sheela that Slr, having seen what you saw and heard what you have heard ln June 1985, why you stay at the ranch at that it_ your testimony that you didn't discuss these R. Langford 1193 point? A. Well, that was my life. That was my absolute ideal dream. And I was committed to being there, to living and making this dream come true And in terms of Mr Turner, did you know him personally' No, I didn Did you know really what he did' No, I not Why in the world would you have agreed to kill him' Because I was told to do that He was an enemy of the commune And that was enough' That was enough, yes And the commitment to my master exhibits now Sir, I going to show you that which has been marked lnitially as Government Exhibit 3B for identification Now we have this MR REARDON It been shown to counsel of course, Judge May I approach the witness' THE COURT Yes MR REARDON Thank you May I inquire through the Court whether the jury can see the THE COURT Yes Mr. Langford, I'm going to show you a series of R. Langford 1194 (By Mr Reardon) Slr, would you please and the Court would you step from that stand momentarlly Keep your volce up now because you are not golng to have the microphone Go to 3B and tell us lf you can lt lS Sheela bedroom I have been lH there many times It an accurate drawlng of lt You would come down the hallway, corrldor here and through the door, chalr, bedroom, dresser, and bathroom, closet here And when you about the that took place ln Sheela bedroom, LS this the place they took place, the dlagram of that? lS lawyer talk I am golng to show you that 15 marked Government No 1 now In evldence I there from the stand Why don you try lt If you have troubles, as long as the jury can see lt we can ask you to stay there, please Can you Government No 1 That lS a map of the maln area of Rajneeshpuram Is that fairly and accurately depleted from your recollectlon from your own experlence on the ranch? Yes REARDON May I have a contlnulng request Please resume the stand sit down. That . MR. R. Langford 1195 terms of approaching the witness so I don't have to ask it each time? THE COURT: Yes . Q. (By Mr. Reardon) I'm going to show you now what is marked as GoVernment's Exhibit now in evidence lA and ask you, sir, from your vantage point there from the stand can you identify it? A. That is the main area of Rajneeshpuram. Q. And directing your attention I apologize for being out of order on this on Government's Exhibit No. 1, does that fairly depict the locations of the two lakes, Krishnamurti and Patanjali? A. Yes. Q. About which we will discuss in a moment. It says on Government's GA, "Six miles to Patanjali Lake." Is that your recollection? A. Yes, it is. Q. I'm going to show you now an exhibit which is in evidence, Governments Exhibit No. 2, and ask you, sir, if you can identify that. What does it appear to be? A. That is the main area of Rajneeshpuram. Q. And with the Court's permission, if you would step offer just from the stand, keep your Voice up, please, and point out to the ladies and gentlemen your knowledge of what is depicted in that aerial photograph. Do you R. Langford 1196 recognlze the structures, for example" You would approach from the county road here Louder Anyone that would approach the common here, from cross would be what was the part of the ranch, the downtown area MR WAX Excuse me Objectlon to as cumulatlve REARDON We haven at all THE COURT It has been dlscussed REARDON Sorry, 1U terms of wltness I placing lt ln context where he was see what we are repeating lt for MR REARDON Resume the stand Thank you, Your Honor (By Mr Reardon) Governments 3 now evldence Can you have lt, That lS the entrance to Jesus Grove Is that where Sheela's bedroom was' Sheela bedroom I ll show you that which has been marked as Government 3A and ask you, slr, can you Government 3A now ln evidence' Yes That lS the Jesus Grove house, the maln house MR. THE COURT: Let's move into new areas. I donR. Langford 1197 Slr, I now gOlHq to show you Government 20 and ask you, slr, lf you can Government No 20 now 1H evldence? That 15 a gray sultcase that was at the ranch that have seen Where you see lt at the ranch' I seen lt ln Sheela bedroom Openlng Government's No 20 now ln evldence, I QOLHQ to show you that lS marked as Government No 20A for purposes not presently lH and ask you lf you can that Yes, lf seen lt It a book on how to and number of books on how to and I have seen lt ln sultcase ln Sheela bedroom MR REARDON We would move Government 20A ln evldence at pOlHt and ask lt be to the jury THE COURT Any MR WEATHERHEAD NO, Your Honor THE COURT (Government MR REARDON 20B belng two books I record THE COURT (Government Recelved, 20A lS recelved 20A I to sake 20A and for the preclslon of the 20B lS recelved also 20B recelved . . . . R. Langford 1198 (By Mr Reardon) Okay On Government Exhibit 3A, you have testified about the underground place for Bhagwan lH the tunnel Can you approach Exhibit 3A and see whether that is accurately depicted in Just come over and look at the diagram Yeah, that lS correct You came in from here and into this area here where the underground MR REARDON My marker is not working, Your Honor Can I request one from the clerk' (By Mr Reardon) Sir, with the Court permission I would like to ask you please to circle number one on circle around it And your initials and the date 7 13 95 (Complies) And circle the underground tunnel with your initials and the date (Complies) Please resume the stand Sit down, I meant Good Now, during the summer of 1985, did you continue to live with Savita? Yes And toward the end of the summer of or let me direct your attention to August of 1985 what, if any, knowledge do you have about a photograph to be taken of Mr TurnerGovernment's Exhibit 3A, Sheela's bedroom, just put R. Langford 1199 A. I remember that K.D. was going over to get a photograph of Mr. Turner. Q. Is K.D. David Knapp? A. Yes, he is. No one even knew what Mr. Turner looked like. I didn't know what Mr. Turner looked like and many other people didn't even know who he was. Q. Did you have any particular part to play in that particular assignment? A. No, I didn't. Q. And during this time up to August lst, for example, of 1985 MR. REARDON: I will strike that, Your Honor. Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Reardon) Later on, sir, did there come a time when you reached a point that in fact you did follow Savita's advice and speak to Sheela? A. Yes. Q. And when did that occur, to the best of your knowledge? A. It occurred that first week in August. Q. And what occasioned it? What caused it, in your mind, to have to happen then as opposed to some other time? A. It was a catharsis by Vidya. She had a total breakdown about this whole killing of Mr. Turner and other people. And Shee1a's bedroom, there was she was crying, R. Langford 1200 all over the floor saylnganybody And I was there and Savlta and Su were there, Shanti Bhadra, and some other people And at that polnt many of us had Not many, you, you, what you I said to Sheela, I can do either It too crazy We can go through The fact was lt the fact lt was crazy or lt was wrong that bothered you most at that po1nt? Its was both crazy and wrong How about your allegiance to Bhagwan, the commune, and all others? It had come to a head where I couldn do lt and the other people that sald they couldn do lt ln room And Sheela sald, Okay She said, That lS fine And what you do then' Then I sald lt was like a rellef of tenslon What you do, lS my questlon Answer my questlon What you do? I said that I would get of the guns and Sheela sald to me, Oh, those are perfectly good guns Why throw them away? And I sald, Well, I ll get the numbers off of them and throw them away What you mean you would get the numbers off themR. Langford 1201 The serlal numbers you try again' I trled Were you successful? there come a tlme when you had conversations with Savlta, the home that you share the room that you shared, about the guns at that tlme' At that po1nt? Yes you to her what you were golng to do' Sheela, and later It was much later, on the day that I left Flne Do you recall when that was? That was September 15th, I belleve I sure around the 14th, 15th The 15th I left The from that tlme that In that meetlng In Sheela room untll the day that Sheela left, was the 14th, the guns just sat up In Alan Watts, In area that I put them ln, this room When you say Alan Watts, just for the record, the ladies and gentlemen not as as you are, you are not to Alan Watts as a person, but Alan Watts an area of the commune' It an area from the maps, lt an area downtown Yes. She was there at the meeting when I said this R. Langford 1202 THE COURT Ladles and gentlemen these books are ln evldence They be ln the jury room for you so that you will have a full opportunity to pay as much attent1on to them as you So what they are being passed to you at tlme for lS to just yourself with the toplc and what the book shows, but lt necessary that you read lt now because you have an opportunity, you to read lt, to do so later (By Mr Reardon) Slr, I golng to show you that has been marked as Government No 38, 38A, B, and 38 lS the envelope Thank you First showlng That lS Savlta at Pragltam How do you know that' I was there That Now from left to can you the people that photograph' Myself, Pragltam lS the groom, Sheela, Pragltam father, and Savlta 38B, ask you answer me yes or no Can you Yes How can you lt? Because I there . And from left to who lS depleted ln that if Q. . you Exhibit 38A, can you identify that photograph, sirR. Langford 1203 photograph' Durga, who lS my wife, Pragltam, myself, and Sheela For the record, the 38A and B, do they falrly and accurately deplct the occaslon you attended that wedd1ng? Yes 38C, slr, the same thing, please Can you lt first' Yes or Yes How, I know the people I attended the From left to please them Pragltam father, Pragltam, Savlta, and Sheela Flnally 38D, and 38D, yes? Agaln from the wedding Left to Left to Pragltam father, SaV1ta, and Pragltam MR REARDON These have already been Judge (By Mr Reardon) And what was your role at that wedd1ng? I was the best man All right I am now golng to show you I need gloves Government R. Langford 1204 marked exhibits now in evidence To move things along, I might, I going to show you Government Exhibit No 5 and ask you, slr, can you identify Government Exhibit Patanjali Lake on the ranch, one of the two lakes on the ranch MR REARDON With the Court permission, may Agent McCann approach the witness with Government Exhibit 9, 1 1 THE COURT Yes (By Mr Reardon) Sir, I going to show you now that ask you, sir, if you can identify it That is one of the weapons I threw ln the lake Government Exhibit No 9 Again, another gun that I through into the lake And Government Exhibit No 10, please? Same Well A gun that I threw in the lake One more that I threw into the lake Is that Government Exhibit No 11? Yes Finally Government Exhibit No 12? A Yes A gun that I threw in the lake which has been marked as Government's Exhibit NoR. Langford 1205 Now, let me ask you ln regard to those 5 guns that you just so we are belng preclse these ladles and gentlemen, how do you know those five? What can you say about those? What lS the reason for your I was the one who threw them LH the lake, and they are revolvers They are the same types that I was ln charge And I was one that showed the area on that lake where they could be found And Where and where they were found? And where they were subsequently found, yes Was there any between or among those weapons that stand out to you lH terms of their s1ze? sorry We don have a table May he examlne the to make to answer my question? THE COURT Ye (By Mr Reardon) You may step around, please, and examlne the One of them lS a long barreled revolver Keep your volce up And the rest of them are one lS a short barrel, and they are the guns that I threw ln the lake Now, let me ask you When you sald you showed to the FBI, what do you mean by that? Sorry You MR. REARDON: May the witness examine IR. Langford 1206 want to look at them again' What do you mean by that? Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury you showed the FBI what does that mean" I went out to this lake physically with Agent McCann over there, and others of the FBI, and showed them approximately at that time where I had put the guns into this lake I going to show you well, I going to ask you to take this marker, with the Court permission, to approach where, the best you can, lt was that you showed the FBI that you had thrown the guns In this area Put your initials and the date, please Is it he European way or the American way on the date' The seven 1S European That is a seven Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how it lS that you happened to put those guns at that place on that lake' In the last two days, everything was that Sheela and myself and others declded to leave the ranch, everything was in real chaos and a lot of anxiety, and again, people all freaked out Sheela had gone to Bhagwan Government's Exhibit No. 5 now in evidence, and indicate R. Langford 1207 and told she was leavlng She was from helng his secretary and was leavlng And at that tlme we all had I had to make a declslon If I was golng to leave the ranch too And my declslon was, yes, I would leave Savlta was leavlng and I was golng to leave her and others I went to Sheela and sald, Sheela, I haven dlsposed of these guns They are up ln that house She was lh her bedroom and there was all chaos, And she sald, Get of them I thought you got r1d of them a long tlme ago And I said, I had varlous thoughts, from outhouses to burying them ln the hills somewhere, and then I declded that I would just go out to lake and throw them In lake and be done them So Sheela left and I wasn planning to leave Rajneeshpuram lmmedlately I was leavlng and we had had to some lH order What does that mean' There was a lot of around there, That 15 all right there come a tlme when you leave" Yes The next I got up and Sheela had left the ranch Answer my questlon there come a tlme when you then I didn't know what to do with themR. Langford 1208 did leave? Yes or no Yes A11 Now, the day that you threw those guns lnto Patanjall, what, 1f any, conversatlons Savlta you have about that' In the that I got up to go there, the followlng Sheela left, I told her I was golng out there and throw the guns ln the lake And what was her response" She sald, Great MR REARDON No further guestlons break MR WAX There lS one area I can go ln ten mlnutes THE COURT All CROSS EXAMINATION MR WAX Mr Langford, good Steven Wax Hagan You have been lH courtroom before, have you not" once In fact, you were here April 25, 1991 You recall that'll THE COURT: It's a good time to take our noon .