From: Ben Goertzel

From: Ben Goertzel To: "jeffrey E." <[email protected]>, Joscha Bach Subject: Re: quick question -- AGI-16 snacks and reception spinsorsq.II IMIMI Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:36:59 +0000 Awesome! I am free anytime on the 21st... Joscha, can you stay around the 21 as well? On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 4:34 AM, Jeffrey E. leevacation®gmail.com> wrote: > i can do the 21 anytime as well I with as many people as you like up to 10 > On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Ben Goertzel Milla wrote: » Hi Jeffrey, >> It will be great to meet up and talk! >> However, on the 20th I am co-organizing (and serving at emcee at) this >> event at the New School... ("Future of Mind" workshop ...) » https://futureofmind.wordpress.com/ >> It ends at 6:15PM on the 20th ... >> We can meet in the evening on the 20th if you like (6:45PM would >> work), or else maybe the 21st if you're available? >> With more advance notice I could have put this Future of Mind event on >> the 21 so as to meet with you on the 20 ... but now we have 110 people >> signed up for the event on the 20th ... » thanks » Ben >> On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 3:17 AM, Jeffrey E. leevacation®gmail.com> wrote: >> > i can do the afternoon of the 20th for anyone you guys think i should >» meet. >> > and will stay around. if necessary i can pick up any aaddditonal >> > expenses incurred in doing so » > >>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Ben Goertzel wrote: All good, thanks so much for the help! On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 8:42 PM, jeffrey E. <[email protected]> wrote: »>» no jeffrey epstein . is enough »»> PROT0 »>» On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:36 AM, Ben Goertzel »>» wrote: »»» About the sponsorship -- should I list one of your organizations on »»» the conference materials as a sponsor? If so which one? Enhanced »»» Education again? »»» thx... >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 10:36 AM, jeffrey E. [email protected]> »»» wrote: >> >> >> > first paper is silly, it does not include rythm, only notes. »»>» points >> >> >> > but no temporal shape. sorry >> >> >> > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Ben Goertzel »»»> wrote: »»»» Hmmm... I have been thinking a lot about music too, but from a different »»»» perspective... >> >> >> >> Do you know this paper on Combinatorial Music Theory? »»»» paper: >> >> >> » http://andrewduncan.net/cmt/ »»>> » video: »»»» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMDtp89Xqlw >> >> >> » It's extremely good, it clarifies some basics of music theory in >> >> >> » mathematical way without the confusing archaic terminology of >> >> >> » standard >> >> >> >> music theory... and suggests various interesting new >> >> >> » directions... >> >> >> >> This paper is also related and somewhat worthwhile »»»» https://www.math.washington.eduk-morrow/336_09/papers/Ada.pdf >> >> >> >> though neither as easy-to-read nor as interesting... >> >> >> >> What these papers are getting as are the hidden >> >> >> » abstract-algebraic »»»» and >> >> >> >> information-theoretic structures underlying melody and harmony... >> >> >> » What you're talking about regarding symphonies is sort of like »»»» "narrative structure" in stories it seems like -- or "discourse »»»» planning" in dialogue -- i.e. it's higher-level >> >> >> >> That level is important, for sure. But what the papers I've PROT1 >> >> >> » linked >> >> >> » above are getting at is a bit lower-level --- more analogous to >> >> >> » the >> >> >> >> syntax and phrase/sentence level semantics of language, I would »»»» say. >> >> >> >> The algebra and information theory of melody and harmony have to »»»» work >> >> >> >> out at the level of individual chords and melodic passages, for >> >> >> » the >> >> >> » higher-level development of a symphony or other complex work to »»»» make »»»» sense... >> >> >> »About >> >> >> >> > I mashed all of the four symphonies together , playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on »»»» > each >> >> >> >> > other, I have done stuff like that before, but not with classical »»»» music... >> >> >> >> with my own recordings ;) .... Do you have a sound file of your >> >> >> » experiment? I'd be curious to hear... >> >> >> » Interestingly, the "plumbing" work we've been doing to connect »»»» OpenCog >> >> >> » to the Hanson robots would also enable us to use OpenCog for »»»» music >> >> >> » composition / improvisation experimentation ... (i.e. we've been >> >> >> » dealing with real-time input and output, which we hadn't been >> >> >> » doing >> >> >> » before) >> >> >> » But at the moment (this opinion is of course subject to revision) I >> >> >> » somewhat feel that the basic problem of "what makes a melody »>> >> » /harmony >> >> >> >> / rhythm pattern sound emotionally and cognitively appealing" has to >> >> >> >> be solved before one moves on to issues of symphonic >> >> >> » structure.... I.e., we probably gotta solve folk music before we can solve >> >> >> » Beethoven >> >> >> » or Bartok ... >> >> >> » Meyer's old theory of "surprising fulfillment of expectations" >> >> >> >> http://rhythmcoglab.coursepress.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/10/Emotion-and- Meaning-in-Music.pdf PROT2 >> >> >> >> is basically correct IMO (if you don't know that book check it >> >> >> >> out, »»»» you'll love his classical music examples) ... but the subtle »»»» point » » » » is >> >> >> >> that the expectations and the surprise we experience are a subtle »»»» mix » » » » of -- basic mathematical music-structure factors, as in the vein of » » » » the >> >> >> » two papers I linked above -- human psychology factors as modeled e.g. in Joscha's work and » » » » in »»»» the Component Process Model ( >> >> >> >> http://boccignone.di.unimi.it/CompAff2015_files/Phil.%20Trans.%20R.%20Soc.%20B-2009- Scherer-3459-74.pdf) >> >> >> >> which we have introduced into the OpenCog / Hanson Robot codebase » » » » to fill in certain gaps in Psi >> >> >> >> -- human body-rhythm patterns, to do with the way the rhythms of >> >> >> >> different subsystems of our physical bodies overlay on each >> >> >> >> other, >> >> >> » which we perceive all the time sub and semi consciously and which >> >> >> » influence our perception of music; obviously even classical music >> >> >> » without a drumbeat is highly rhythmic... -- more abstract cognitive pattern recognition >> >> >> >> So a good melody packs up "surprising fulfillment of >> >> >> » expectations" >> >> >> >> where the expectation and fulfillment are assessed according to a >> >> >> >> combination of the above 4 factors ... and if you leave any of >> >> >> » the >> >> >> >> above 4 factors out you're going to get lots of "false positives" >> >> >> »All of the above factors are there in Chinese, African etc. music » » » » as >> >> >> » well as Western music, but manifested in different ways... >> >> >> >> I can pretty clearly see how to seriously investigate the above >> >> >> » but >> >> >> » can't at the moment see a "quick and dirty" way to make huge »»»» progress »»»» quickly ... while seemingly simple, the question of "what makes a PROT3 >> >> >> >> melody appealing" actually wraps up a lot of issues ... BODY, >> >> >> » EMOTION, COGNITION ... plus MATH-OF-MUSIC ... >> >> >> » Fascinating stuff though ;) »»»» If you want to design a research programme in this direction I'd » » » » be »»»» game to participate; I don't want to drop my other OpenCog R&D >> >> >> » obviously but music just fascinates me at a heart as well as head >> >> >> » level, so I'd be willing to put some time into this in parallel »»»» with >> >> >> » making the Hanson robots work... I do have a feeling that to »»»» really >> >> >> » crack the problem of what makes a melody sound good, one has to »»»» crack >> >> >> » the problem of how feeling and body and cognition work together, »>> >> » which >> >> >> » is a key problem for AGI generally speaking... »»»» Ben »»»» P. S. >> >> >> >> Of course, complex development of themes and counter and sub »>> >> » themes >> >> >> >> and so forth is not exclusive to Western classical music.... For >> >> >> » instance this 30 minute instrumental-rock song composed by »>> >> » Buckethead >> >> >> » in memoriam for his mother has incredible subtlety of development »»»» https://www.youtube.com/watch?våPXYehriYY ... so many themes introduced in the first half and then >> >> >> >> complexly, >> >> >> » genetically crossed over and synergized in the second half.. It » » » » is » » » » my >> >> >> >> firm conviction that Buckethead will be remembered as the >> >> >> » Beethoven » » » » of >> >> >> >> the early 21st century ;) >> >> >> » For me the ultimate is Prometheus, by Scriabin, though... »»»» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GEwho6Dbnc >> >> >> » do you know it? Wow.... This is cognitive and emotional »>> >> » development >> >> >> » beyond the ordinary human level, such as only a true genius »>> >> » madman >> >> >> » could produce. I had an amazing mental experience in San »»>> » Francisco >> >> >> » in 2012 listening to Prometheus 10 times in succession ... try it >> >> >> » sometime... PROT4 jo ««««< llnsaJ amtpne atp aq Amu atsnui att11ett1 asodoid • idtuane ««««< smt2lopsniti < <<««« isoui se `2uptj s! uomau qattim psoaaa o1 atsnui ol &gum!! ««««< 01 < « « « « pasoddo ««««< sy • sidaauco mllews ski jo dn aputu` amqm e " aaatd < « « « « alp ««««< jo ««««< eumuauaqd < « « « « " e suuoj amjaq awoa sett imp pe jo uopeputtdeaai ««««< alp ««««< ULTOJ < << << << << otuoyduds atp jo uotsupuoa atp tit • amp Isom alp sane; ««««< 92MS ««««< watudownap ««««< alp pm' aw paionnsuooai pawrumuoaap tauanut GIE ««««< sawn; ««««< asotp ««««< 9.19IVIA 'a2eis mauzdownap xaiduma alp si uuoj oluotichua jo ««««< ued ««««< puoaas alp " iaXel 1sJg atp ut aumtp auo ump atom aq itf8ttu ««««< antp < « « « « wej ti! •auzatp e" Jahl " mill nag; *Dim maaq samoyduds < « « « « 'ammilus ««««< will ow! mopulm poison e aq 1y8lw atsniu wip awinmod I<«««« • sapads lad waiajnp &gag ««««< ia<e! ««««< qoea < « « « « jo ««««< wawdolanap ay1 .10.1 Outing alp • utem atp w padopnap &gag < « « « « siaN ««««< uo ««««< pasnooj < « « « « eqatisof • •eyosoCol sammaim papmap pue amssat532e < «« « « paupsof ««««< Xlloqm speoN pagemoaua watutiadxa ue pawnpuoa IAepoi ««««< &pout ««««< sittl Xnsuotp 01 aiaim t wqm • •aaueuosslp pue •saluotunq ««««< walnut <«« « « aJe antp "atup pue saiou gip& uotiewi mug se Ham se < « « « « Jam < « « « « tie < « « « « St < « « « « loarqo a2ziens e st Apopui •atsnui pue ly Joi 2uppoi ««««< <uxoalteuigäuopeounaar> «« « « '3 409Jar 'NV 6£:6 W 910Z inf `uoysi up « « « « PROT5 those >> >> >> >> > neurons firing, made possible by a select few who would »>> >> >> > attempt » » » » > to >> >> >> >> > notate >> >> >> >> > those neuronal firings. Beethoven for example. >> >> >> >> > The experiment . I mashed all of the four symphonies >> >> >> >» together >> >> >> >> > playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on »»»» > each >> >> >> >> > other, >> >> >> >> > playing at the same time. - the way a brain might develop. I >> >> >> >> > expected » » » » > an >> >> >> >> > ordered noise but to the surprising contrary , IT WAS » » » >» AMAZING. >> >> >> >> > you can hear new "concepts " forming, >> >> >> >> > iI wonder whether in the mind of a blind child , the " music" >> >> >> >> > would » » » » > be >> >> >> >> > created even without the visual referencial. but created none the »»»» > less. >> >> >> >> > later when the visual can be tied to concepts , the anatomy may » » » » > be »>> >> >» hijacked >> >> >> >> > to produce sounds . that somehow relate to the concepts.. >> >> >> >> > I tried to mix music from different cultures- it didn't work. »>> >> >> >African >> >> >> >> > does not work with western europe,- chinese works with neither >>>>» » > of >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > other >> >> >> >> > two. but within the same cultural music ( the brain of the »»»» > local >> >> >> >» species >> >> >> >> > ) the mash ups are beautiful. >> >> >> >> > I would note that computers engage in "parallel processing" »»»» > only » » » » > in >> >> >> >> > order >> >> >> >» to take a hard problem and break it into its component parts , >> >> >> >> > working » » » » > on >> >> >> >> > each component separately, here each problem Interacts »»» » > and »»» » > the PROT6 >> >> >> >» their >> >> >> >> > resolutions interact in remarkable ways. >> >> >> >» On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ben Goertzel >> >> >> >» wrote: >> >> >> >> » (i.e. being a "fiscal sponsor" for the HLAI/AGI conference is >> >> >> >> » within >> >> >> >> >> Humanity+'s mandate as a 501(c)3, so there's no problem »»» » » here...) »»» » » >> >> >> >> » On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Ben Goertzel >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: We can route the donation through Humanity+, which is a 501(c)3 as >> >> >> >> >> > we have done with some of your previous donations for my »»» » » > research... >> >> >> >> >> > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:33 AM, jeffrey E. >> >> >> >> >> > <[email protected]> > wrote: »»»» » » is it a 501 c 3 »»»» » » >> >> >> >> >> » On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Ben Goertzel »»»» » » wrote: Hey there, >> >> >> >> >> >» Hope you're well... >> >> >> >> >> >>> I'll send you another email about connecting this summer »»» » » >» while »»» » » >» I'm >» in >> >> >> >> >> >>> the US if you'll be around... >> >> >> >> >> >» This email pertains to the AGI-16 / Human-Level AI >> >> >> >> >> >>> conference >» which >> >> >> >> >> >» occurs upcoming week in New York (July 16-19).... at the >» New >> >> >> >> >> >>> School. >> >> >> >> >> >» We are doing the last-minute nitty-gritty conference planning >» and >» find >> >> >> >> >> >>> ourselves short on cash for snacks and for drinks at the PROT7 >> >> >> >> >> >» conference >> >> >> >> >> >>> reception / poster-session ... (the New School venue >» proved »> more >> >> >> >> >> >>> costly than planned... we chose New School as an old »»» » » »> college »»» » » »> friend »»»» » >>> of >> >> >> >> >> >» mine is a prof and administrator there...) >> >> >> >> >> >» So Pm wondering if you might be willing to do a US$3000 >> >> » >> >> >>> sponsorship >> >> >> >> >> >» (we have two other sponsors at the US$3000 level: >> >> >> >> >> >» Vicarious >» Systems, >> >> >> >> >> >>> and Demiurge Technologies).... (We don't actually need >» the >» wired >> >> >> >> >> >» immediately, a commitment is enough)... >> >> >> >> >> >>> We can then serve everyone "drinks and snacks courtesy of »»» » » >» Jeffrey >> >> >> >> >> >>> Epstein Foundation", or whatever foundation name you »> prefer (or »> just >> >> >> >> >> >» keep it quiet if you prefer) >> >> >> >> >> >» This is not insanely critical, but it would be a help... I >> >> >» believe >> >> >> >> >> >>> these conferences are still quite valuable in terms of keeping >» free >> >> >> >> >> >>> and open dialogue about AGI going in the research >> >> >> >> >> >>> community, »»» » » >» as >> >> >> >> >> >>> opposed to having AGI work entirely sucked into the »»» » » >» proprietary »> halls >> >> >> >>> of big companies... »> thanks »> Ben >> >> >> >> >> >» Ben Goertzel, PhD »»>> >> >> >» http://goertzel.org >> >> >> >> >> >>> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the >> >> >> >> >> >>> Global >» Brain PROT8 >> >> >> >> >> >>> currently struggling to form... »»» » » » please note >> >> >> >> >> » The information contained in this communication is >> >> >> >> >> » confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> >> >> >> >> constitute inside information, and is intended only for >> >> >> >> >> » the use of the addressee. It is the property of » » » » » » JEE >> >> >> >> >> >> Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> >> >> >> >> » communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> >> >> >> >> » and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> >> >> >> >> communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> >> >> >> >> return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >> >> >> >> >> >> destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> >> >> >> >> » including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >> >> >> >> >» Ben Goertzel, PhD »>> >> >> >» http://goertzel.org >> >> >> >> >> > Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the >> >> >> >> >> > Global »»»» » > Brain » » » » >» is >> >> >> >> >> > currently struggling to form... >> >> >> >> » Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >> >> >> » http://goertzel.org >> >> >> >> >> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global »»» » » Brain » » » » » is >> >> >> >> » currently struggling to form... please note >> >> >> >> > The information contained in this communication is >> >> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> >> >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >> >> >> >» the use of the addressee. It is the property of »»» » > JEE »»»» > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this PROT9 >> >> >> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> >> >>» > and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> >>» > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> >>» > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and »»»» > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> >> >> >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >> >> >>» Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >> >>» http://goertzel.org >> >> >>» Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global >> >> >>» Brain » » » » is >> >> >> >> currently struggling to form... »»>» please note >> >> >> > The information contained in this communication is >> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> >» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >> >> >> > the use of the addressee. It is the property of » » » > JEE >> >> >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> >> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited »»>» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and »»>» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, »»>» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved »»» Ben Goertzel, PhD »»» http://goertzel.org >> >> >> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain »»» is >> >> >> currently struggling to form... »>» please note >> >> > The information contained in this communication is >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for PROT10 »>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of »»> JEE > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited »»> and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >> >> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> >> > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is currently struggling to form... » > [repeated 4 times] >» please note >> > The information contained in this communication is >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >» JEE >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved » -- » Ben Goertzel, PhD » http://goertzel.org >> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is >> currently struggling to form... > please note > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for PROT11 > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > JEE > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is currently struggling to form... PROT12