Grand Jury Volume 15 (Witness 40 testimony)

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Transcript of: Grand Jury, Volume XV Date: October 23, 2014 This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper 515 Olive Street, Suite 300 St. Louis, MO 63101 (314) 241-6750 1-800-878?6750 Fax: (314) 241-5070 Email: [email protected] Internet: State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 1 STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON GRAND JURY October 23, 2014 VOLUME XV Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY STATE OF MISSOURI STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON The following is a hearing before the Grand Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100 South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State of Missouri, on the 23th day of October, 2014, before FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 3 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: FOR THE STATE: Ms. Kathi Alizadeh Ms. Sheila Whirley Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis County 100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor Clayton, MO 63105 (314) 615-2600 FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 5 GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XV 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Good morning. 3 (Everyone says good morning.) 4 MS. ALIZADEH: It is Thursday, 5 October 23rd at 9:06 a.m. This is Kathi Alizadeh, 6 Sheila Whirley is also present, all l2 grand jurors 7 are present as well as the court reporter, 8 and we need to take up a few matters before we begin 9 with witnesses today. 10 Um, I would imagine all of you, I mean, ll most of you, if not all of you, have been aware that 12 there have been media reports out there that seem to 13 indicate that there are leaks in the investigation 14 and that reports have been leaked and testimony has 15 been leaked and so forth. 16 And first off, as I've said from the very 17 beginning, you all have to be guided by what occurs 18 in this room. We all know sometimes the media 19 doesn't get things right, but you know, if you do 20 read those things, you need to make sure you take 2l that with a grain of salt. You all have heard all 22 the evidence together, so you know what you have 23 heard and seen. 24 But I do want to say, and Sheila and I 25 have had a conference, we've had a conference with Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 6 Mr. McCulloch, we've had conferences with a lot of 2 others, with the County Police Department and 3 everything, and I can assure you that we know that 4 the leak, that the leaks are not coming from the 5 grand jury. There is no doubt in our minds that 6 none of you are the source of that. 7 And to tell you the truth, one of the 8 reasons that I know that is the medical examiner's 9 report is out there and I've looked at what's out 10 there, what was leaked by the Post?Dispatch, it was ll put out there by the Post?Dispatch and I can tell 12 you it is not the copy that you have. It is the 13 medical examiner's report, but every medical l4 examiner's report that we get has a stamp on it. It 15 says not for secondary release. 16 And the report that is out there that was 17 published by the Post?Dispatch does have that stamp 18 on there, but it is not the same stamp that I have, 19 and I know it is not the same stamp that is on your 20 copy. 2l So it says the same thing, but their's is 22 in a straight line and it is different looking than 23 our stamp, the stamp that we have on our copies. 24 And the same thing with the County Police, 25 it is different than the stamp that they have from Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 7 their copies. So wherever this came from, it did not come from our office, it did not come from you guys. You don't have a copy that looks like that, it did not come from the County Police. And the other reason why we're fairly, not fairly, we're 100 percent confident that this is not coming from the grand jurors or from the County Police is that in the very beginning when there was a supposed leak, this was a story that was broken by the New York Times, but it was their Washington Bureau that published the story and they cited their source as a government official who had been briefed on the civil rights investigation. We are sharing our information with the federal government because they are conducting their own independent investigation and so they have all the same reports and the same things that we have. And so we are confident that the leak is someone in probably the Department of Justice and is not coming from St. Louis County Police, not from our office, and not from this grand jury. I know you all maybe were concerned about that, but we are 100 percent confident that we're all good. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 8 The other reason being you all don't take 2 your things home with you. We collect your 3 materials before you leave so that being said, I 4 just want everybody to know that we still have 5 complete confidence in the grand jury and the 6 judicial system and we know that you're going to do 7 your duty and you're going to be guided by the 8 evidence that you've heard during your 9 investigation. 10 So that's the first thing. Anything else ll that we discussed that needs to be said? 12 The other thing that we have talked about 13 at the very beginning of this process we kind of had 14 set a goal for ourselves that we were going to try 15 to complete this by mid November. 16 If you recall that was originally the idea 17 that we could extend the grand jury or that it could 18 be a six month term and that would put you at like 19 mid November. It was then again extended to 20 January, that was done just out of an abundance of 2l caution in case we didn't get done by mid November. 22 We still would like to finish by mid 23 November. I can tell you that the light is at the 24 end of the tunnel so to speak. We have discussed 25 what we have left to put on and I will tell you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 9 1 there are approximately 15 eyewitnesses or lay 2 witnesses who we believe would have valuable 3 testimony to give. However, I will tell you that I 4 don't know, we are making our best efforts to get 5 everyone in, but I can tell you that you some of 6 these witnesses are resisting. 7 Some of them have frankly said there is no 8 way I'm coming in, no way I'm going to testify. 9 We're trying to get witnesses under subpoena, but if 10 you knock on the door and nobody answers, we have no 11 right to, you know, kick in the door and serve them 12 with a subpoena. 13 We can only do so much. So even though we 14 have potentially 15 lay witnesses that we may still 15 call, I expect we are not going to be able to call 16 all of those witnesses. We are going to do our 17 best. 18 But in the event that we want to wrap this 19 up, if we try our best to wrap this up in mid 20 November, we talked about possibly going to again a 21 three day a week schedule. That would, you know, 22 again, we're trying to get this completed and by all 23 means, there is no deadline so you all don't feel 24 that you have the time, there is no magic date, 25 there is no reason this hasn't to be done on a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 10 certain date. With that in mind, if you can talk during your lunch break today about your November schedule because we don't have any dates yet for November and think about including an additional day. I know you've been very generous to give us two days a week, and keep in mind as well that from the very beginning we've said if you all need to meet in the evening or Saturday or Sunday, even if it is a half day on Saturday or Sunday, we will be there, we will do it. The other thing that we talked about is that there was a question early on about possibly getting the police vehicle for you all to see for yourself, which I've already investigated that and we can't. It's been repaired, so it has a window in it now and I haven't seen it myself whether or not the demarcation where the bullet hole was, I don't know if that's still there. But I know that you are interested in how big the vehicle is, how tall it is, what it might be like to stand next to it and so forth. We can have that done a number of ways. We can have that done a number of ways. We can FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 ?Hymagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page ll bring that here and made available for you in the 2 parking garage for you all to get in, examine, get 3 around. However, if we do it here, it would be wise 4 not to do it during business hours, because there's 5 really no place in the parking garage where we can 6 do this where people won't see you up and around a 7 Ferguson Police car. 8 We have construction workers in the 9 parking garage, there are county employees, we have 10 just members of the public that can park in the ll parking garage. 12 If you would like to see the vehicle here 13 in this location, I would suggest that maybe if we 14 do that on an evening or weekend where nobody will 15 be down here, no construction workers, very few 16 county employees. 17 The other possibility is that we could 18 bring the vehicle to the St. Louis County Police 19 Academy, which is in Wellston, it is maybe a l5 20 minute drive from heretake you out there. 22 They've got a secure garage and you could 23 exit there. If you recall Detective talked 24 about it, they had towed it to their garage which is 25 a secure facility here in Clayton. I can Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 12 investigate whether or not that garage might be available. The problem with that is, it contains other evidence, there might be things in there the County Police may say, yeah, we can't let these people in here, we have other evidence in other cases and it would be compromised, the integrity of other investigations. So, plus I'm not 100 percent sure that that garage is even still there. They're in the process of demolishing buildings, that might not even be available, but those are a couple options bringing it here and seeing it on a weekend or evening or taking a field trip to the police academy to exit there. So you guys can talk about that as well. Sheila has a better recollection than me, so I have to always ask her did I forget everything. MS. WHIRLEY: She has the gift of grab. MS. ALIZADEH: I do. I'm the mouth and she's the brains. So you all had asked for a topographical map at some point, I have one that I will pass out today. Don't know how helpful it is going to be for you. I looked at it, I don't know. It is the only one that we can come up with without actually, you know, I guess hiring a company to go FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page l3 out there and do that. 2 And then also you had asked for the floor 3 plans of the apartments in the complex, I've got 4 that as well. 5 Also, there was a question about whether 6 or not we were going to call Dr. the 7 pathologist who was hired by the family of Michael 8 Brown to perform an independent autopsy. It was 9 actually the second autopsy on the remains. 10 There was then later a third autopsy that ll was done by the Department of Defense medical l2 examiners, which I expect we'll call one of them to 13 tell you what their findings were. 14 We have contacted the attorney who 15 represents the family of Michael Brown and asked 16 that they contact Dr. and invite him to 17 testify. 18 So we haven't heard back if he's going to 19 be available to do that, or if he's willing to do 20 that, but we're going to make those efforts to try 2l to get him here because I know that there was a 22 question about that. 23 What would I do without Sheila. Now, as I 24 said, we have potentially l5 more eyewitnesses who 25 may be testifying. And it's been our habit and our Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page l4 process during this time to play for you every 2 recorded statement that a witness has made. 3 We initially were, our goal and plan was 4 to do that before the witness testified, sometimes 5 that didn't work out, but we've always gotten around 6 to playing it eventually for you. 7 As you know, sometimes these witnesses 8 make two or three recorded statements, sometimes 9 you've got, you know, statements that are in excess 10 of an hour, hour and a half, hour and 40 minutes, ll two hours. 12 And so our question to you is we can 13 proceed in that manner as we've done in the past or 14 we're wondering if you find it helpful to listen to 15 those statements if those statements are consistent 16 with what the witness testifies to. 17 So if the witness testifies, like if we 18 put a witness on and they testify, and Sheila and I 19 who have listened to these tapes feel that there's 20 really no inconsistency in what they already said. 2l I mean, obviously, any statement there could be, you 22 know, minor inconsistencies, and that will be 23 something that she and I will discuss together about 24 whether we think that there are inconsistencies. 25 And if we feel that there are not, it Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 15 would be possible if you feel that that doesn't help you to hear this tape statement again, that we then just forgo playing that taped statement. Obviously, it takes up a lot of time and I know it is tiring for you all to sit here and listen and read transcripts. So maybe you can discuss that during your lunch as well. If you think that that would speed through this. I don't mean speed through it in a way that's not efficient. I don't want to say we're rushing through anything, but if you are finding that it is not really that helpful and you don't need to hear it, then we don't have to play it. We have it, we have all of them and, of course, if at any time you would have some issue with, you know what, maybe we should hear that witness' statement that they made before, at any time we can play it for you, okay. So that's something for you to consider. All right. Is there anything, you know, that anybody has an issue or question about? You can discuss this during your lunch and then we'll ask questions during the lunch break, especially if we are talking about scheduling issues and things of that nature. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorspen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 16 Don't necessarily need to afford those kind of things, but let me know after lunch and we have, I think, two people here right now, and going to have to give me a second to get somewhat organized. MS. ALIZADEH: Yes. Officer Wilson, he only had one recorded statement? I know we only heard one, if I'm not mistaken. MS. ALIZADEH: If I'm not mistaken, Officer Wilson's statement was not recorded prior to him testifying. Check your folders to see if you have a transcript of the testimony of Darren Wilson? We have one. There was supposed to have been one with Detective MS. WHIRLEY: Detective did one that wasn't recorded and then there was one that was recorded, you have a transcript of that? We have one that is recorded. MS. ALIZADEH: My recollection is, we can certainly go back and look at the transcripts, but that Sergeant testified about statements that he made right at the scene when he first got there, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 17 and none of that was recorded. And then was the detective who went to the police station and did a cursory interview and that was not recorded. And then, you have one? That must have been done on the 9th at 10:00 in the morning? August 10th. The 9th is the MS. ALIZADEH: 10th, okay. day of. I knew it was the next morning. All right. And then there was Agent who came in and testified that she had interviewed him, but that their interview was not recorded, I believe. MS. WHIRLEY: Right. Ms. ALIZADEH: All right. I forgot about that. Again, if there is a need to bring any witness back that you have already heard from because now you have additional questions, you just need to let us know. We put on things in a way that we think was easier for you to understand the case, but, you know, just the sake of when we put on a witness early on in the process and then now later in the process you might think well, I didn't know that when I heard from that witness before, so now I have a couple of additional questions. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page l8 1 So if anyone of you feel the need to have 2 any witness who has testified previously return and 3 answer some questions, we will get them here. And 4 obviously, Officer Wilson, I cannot compel him to 5 appear before you, but he appeared previously and I 6 would reach out to his representatives to invite him 7 back if you felt that you would want to hear from 8 him again. 9 Any other questions? 10 Is there any ll recorded testimony with Officer Darren Wilson and 12 the FBI or the civil rights investigation? 13 MS. ALIZADEH: My understanding is, no, 14 that they did not record that. If you recall it was 15 the brunette female FBI agent 16 who came in and testified that she was present and I7 interviewed him that they did not record that. 18 I know, now this is 19 reported in the newspaper or whatever, there was a 20 statement that was supposedly made by him about the 2l first two shots. In our transcripts he didn't think 22 he hit him on the second shot because he saw some 23 dirt fly up. But then it was reported later on that 24 he said he thought he did hit him with the second 25 shot. I just wondered if there was any recorded Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 19 1 evidence of him saying that? 2 MS. ALTZADEH: Not that I'm aware of. And 3 I will tell you that, you know, as you can probably 4 imagine, any news agency is not going to reveal to 5 me who the source of their information is. They 6 have this First Amendment thing, freedom of the 7 press. 8 And so while it might be make sense for 9 me to call them and say, hey, where did you get that 10 because we're interested and if you've heard that 11 from another source, we'd like to hear who told you 12 that, but they're not going to tell me. 13 And that might be something that if you 14 would care to have another witness back to testify 15 to ask that question, but I don't know where that 16 information came from for that particular news 17 article. 18 Two quick 19 things. One, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 2 is the map 20 that we use almost daily. I notice also it still 21 says not to scale. Do you know if you would ever 22 get one to scale or even if it is that much of a 23 difference? 24 MS. ALIZADEH: That's another thing. That 25 brings up something else. There was a question Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 20 1 awhile back about getting a transparency that maybe 2 would have the diagram images that we could lay on 3 top of the map. I did look into that and the 4 problem that I learned with doing that is that map 5 is not to scale and so just because on the map I'm 6 holding my fingers out, if the map says this is 7 137 feet, I'm just making up a number, of course. 8 There might be another place on the map that says 9 this is 150 feet. And the actual measurement was 10 accurately done, but the map might not be to scale, 11 you know, the entrance, the driveway, you know, to 12 some of these parking entrances might not be as wide 13 in real life as it appears on the diagram. The size 14 of the police vehicle is not necessarily on the 15 diagram the exact size of what it is in the street. 16 I would suggest that, you know, I have all 17 of those crime scene photos and if you ever are 18 curious about, you know, the real size of things, 19 you can sift through those photos to see if they can 20 help you determine or answer some of those 21 questions, but I can ask about the possibility of 22 having a diagram to scale. 23 It is my, this is strictly my belief based 24 upon my experience that when the police officers do 25 these diagrams, they use a computer program that, I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 21 1 don't think they are done freehand, I think they use 2 a computer program to do these diagramsscale would require someone, actually, a 4 draftsman type of person, I think, to actually make 5 sure that the diagram is to scale. 6 So that would probably have to be done by 7 not the police department, we probably would have to 8 look into whether or not there could be some 9 draftsman that could do that, but I mean, I can 10 investigate that as well if you think it would be 11 helpful. 12 But as far as the transparency goes, I'm 13 afraid it might even be misleading if we had a 14 transparency and you laid it on top of the aerial 15 photograph, it might appear that oh, look, this is 16 actually not where it is in the picture because on 17 the transparency it is past the fire hydrant. Well, 18 that just might be because it is not to scale. So I 19 wouldn't want you to rely on something and be misled 20 by that. 21 Yes. 22 Prior to knowing 23 I was on this case, I remember vaguely hearing in 24 the news there was a gentleman on some sort of audio 25 phone that recorded the succession of gunshots and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 22 didn't know, again, I didn't pay much attention to it, I kept it in my memory. I didn't know if that was something even credible or something we will get to. MS. ALIZADEH: Yes. That is something that the police have the custody of that recording and we will be putting that on for you as well. And there was a question quite some time ago about surveillance cameras in the complex and I, believe me, before you guys even got this assignment, that was one of the first questions out of my mouth. Are their surveillance cameras? I was told no. Now, before you complete your investigation, probably the very last witness that I will call for you to hear from is going to be Detective because as the primary case agent, he knows more about this case than any other person. So there are some things that he's going to testify about that he did himself and whatnot, but he would be the person to ask a lot of these questions to because he was in charge of the investigation. What was done, what did you do about this, did you ever try to get ahold of this person, he can FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepenqnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 23 answer a lot of those questions with firsthand knowledge. Me, all my knowledge about this comes from other sources because I was not out there investigating the case. So I don't want to be the person to actually have you rely on what I'm telling you, I'm just telling you that it is my understanding that there were not, but that would be a question better put to Detective about that, all right? Anyone else? Okay. We have a witness here, the first witness we are going to call and I'm not organized this morning. I know that had asked sometime ago would it be possible for us to see where this happened. And I know we had discussed it before and that probably wouldn't be in our best interest to go there. I think somebody had talked I think it was About getting pictures of the distance and things like that? MS. ALIZADEH: That's one of the things FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 24 we've had that done. I think that Detective when I put him on last we're going to have him show you those pictures because he'll be able to point out for you in the picture this apartment building right here or this window right here, this balcony right here, that's where witness so and so was. And if you see right here, that's where witness so and so was because he's the one that knows that information and in very intimate detail. So we do have pictures that we have the police and Detective went out with them to take those pictures to make sure we got the vantage points. We weren't able to take vantage point pictures from where the witness was that would require going into people's apartments and they felt that that wasn't going to be safe or welcomed. So the pictures that they took are from the location of where the vehicle was, the location of where Michael Brown's body laying in the street and then the location of the corner near a light post. And those pictures are done in 360, so you might be able to see from here can you see that witness' balcony who says they can see this. That's the best we can do as far as getting vantage point pictures. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 25 I guess I do have a question. I know that some of these media reports they're saying that he had marijuana in his system. And I guess that's another way of knowing it didn't come from us because we were never told that he had marijuana in his system. So is there still like evidence out there that we haven't heard like that? MS. ALIZADEH: Yes. The DNA on the gun? MS. ALIZADEH: Yes, there's going to be, you know, our plan was to try to get through the eyewitnesses and then at the end put on some of the scientific evidence because frankly those witnesses are there at my fingertips and are going to come in whenever I tell them to come in. And so I just knew that when it came time to try to wrap things up, we would be able to get them through in and out fairly quickly. So I do anticipate that you are going to hear additional evidence from experts who have tested various things, all right? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 26 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: EXAMINATION BY MS. ALIZADEH: Do you remember the second part of the oath talks about what happens here, okay? A Okay. All right. Have a seat, thank you. You're sure you don't want a glass of water. A No. Can you introduce yourself to the grand jurors? A My name is And, ma'am, I'm going to stand back here because the microphone that is up there is not, it is not going to amplify your voice. A Okay. And so you just need to keep your voice up so that I can hear you back here and then if I can hear you, I know that everybody back here can hear you, okay? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 27 1 A Okay. 2 And, ma'am, back in August of this year, 3 were you living in the Canfield Green Apartment 4 Complex? 5 A Yes. 6 And were you home on Saturday, August 9th? 7 A Yes. 8 Now, and I told you when I talked to you 9 that I was not going to ask you to give your 10 address, but there is a laser pointer that is 11 sitting right in front of you there. 12 A Uh?huh. 13 And if you press this gray button here, it 14 makes a laser pointer. Can you show the grand 15 jurors on the map, which is marked Grand Jury 16 Exhibit Number 25, do you recognize these streets, 17 it says Canfield Drive, and for your reference over 18 here is West Florissant, okay? 19 A Uh?huh. 20 And then over here is the Northwinds 21 Apartments. So that does help orient you to 22 understand the buildings that are shown on the map? 23 A Yes. 24 Can you put the laser pointer on the 25 building that you were living in back in August? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 28 A (Indicating) Okay. This building right here? (indicating) A Yes. And can you, now, we've heard testimony already how these buildings are, that there's three floors to every building, correct? A Yes. What floor were you living on? A Third. So that's the top floor? A Right. And so this particular building has entrances for units that would be, actually those units would face the west if this is west. And then there's also some entrances to the building that face the east. Was your apartment facing the west or facing the east? A I'm kind of confused because the building sits like this and I can see out and see Canfield Court. Okay. Do you know your apartment number back then? A Yeah. Does it help you to look up here? Can you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 29 see the number? 2 A Yeah. 3 And so I'm going to point, I'm not going 4 to say it out loud, but is that your apartment 5 number? 6 A Uh?huh. 7 This one right here? (indicating) 8 A Yes. 9 So you're, this little out jet right here, 10 that's like a little covered stairwell, staircase; ll is that right? You take some exterior steps up to 12 the third floor; is that right? Is that how you get 13 in your apartment? 14 A Right. 15 So the front door of your apartment is 16 actually right there where that stairwell is, 17 correct? 18 A Right. 19 And so you have a window, you have a 20 sliding glass door that's on the front of your 2l apartment? 22 A Yes. 23 And then there's a window that's also on 24 the front? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 30 1 And is there also a window that would be 2 around the corner? 3 A No. 4 No, okay. So you have a sliding glass 5 door and a window, is that like a bedroom window? 6 A Ri . 7 Okay. So when you are looking out of the 8 front of your apartment, can you see down to 9 Canfield Drive? 10 A Yes. 11 All right. So do you recall on the 12 morning of August 9th, was there anything special 13 about that day, that morning that you recall oh, it 14 was, I remember it because it was, had these plans 15 to do something or was it an ordinary day? 16 A It was an ordinary day. 1 was just kind 17 of looking out the window. 18 And do you recall that this was a 19 Saturday? 20 A Yes. 21 Sunny day? 22 A Yes. 23 And does your apartment, did your 24 apartment back then have air conditioning? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 31 And this was August 9th, and I know that it got warmer in the day, but do you recall if you had your windows opened or closed? A Closed. Do you normally run the air conditioning in the month of August? A Yes. Okay. And so you said that you were looking out the window, was there a reason you looked out the window? Was there anything that drew your attention outside or were you just happening to be working out the window? A I just happen to be looking out. All right. And then once you were looking out, did you see something unusual? A Not unusual at first. Why don't you describe what you saw? A Um, these two boys or two guys walking down the street. They were kind of out in the street, but not all the way out. They weren't quite to the yellow line. Then I kind of stepped back a little bit. Then for some reason I looked again and I saw the police car pull up, and he said something to the said something back because boys. They, obviously, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 32 you could see the motion of their hands, but I couldn't hear anything because my window was closed. Then the boys kind of went on, walked on and then he backed up, the cop backed up, the policeman backed up. Then, I guess, I'm not sure what else happened after that, but I could see the one boy, the shorter one, he kind of stepped a little bit past the window of the police car. It was actually an SUV, it wasn't just a regular car, but the bigger guy was standing at the window, near the window of the car. And I could see the top of his head and I could see their hands moving. And so it seemed like they were kind of, I guess, tussling through the window of the car. Then the boy, the guy broke loose and began to go down the street and that's when the policeman got out of the car. Then he proceeded, the boy was ahead of him and that's all I could see. Okay. A Because they were past, they were past my building. See, like my building is here, well, I couldn't see, I could only see the police car and him going so far. I could not see after it passed. They I said, um, in a few seconds I heard a shot. I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 33 don't know whether it was three or four because I really did not necessarily count them, but I knew it was more than two. Oh, my God. I don't guess, you know, they were shooting. This had anything to do with it and I just went on back and started to put my clothes on. By that time the crowd of people had started, people had started to come, not a lot of them but, you know, I knew something had happened. So by the time I got out, it was all over. The boy was in the street and the police was beginning to put some cones out. Okay. So let's, you know, we're going to need to go back. We're going to go through step by step and ask some more detailed questions, okay? A That's fine. So when you say you were looking out the window. A Uh?huh. First off, was anybody home with you at that time? A No, I was there by myself. And so when you said you happen to look out the window, was it the sliding glass door or was it a bedroom window? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 window, was just, look out to see what's going onbedroom window. Are there any window coverings on that blinds, shades? Blinds. Are they horizontal blinds? Yes. And were they, NO, you know, looking out. So did you have to move the blinds in order for you to see out the window? being up high, you're on the third floor of this building, a little rise, somewhat, this, walk up to your building, all? A A A NO. Okay. Because they were high enough and by me I can see on the street, And so, a small hill? The street? Does the ground, like if you are driving up here and if you were the blinds down? I had it pulled up so high because I Sometimes I just you know. and that's a good point. is this a little bit on a hill You mean my building? is there any elevation to are you walking uphill at Page 34 so. When is there FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 bedroom window, you were seeing the police car? A Right. Okay. And so when you look down you said you first saw two boys walking in the street? A Right. Did you know either boy? A No. Hadn't seen them before? A No. What about them do you recall. Can you tell me anything about them? A One was short, he had dreads, he was darker skin. The other one was a big guy, over 6 feet. basically. only thing big guy and that he was a lighter skin than the smaller one and that the smaller one had dreads. that I wasn't that close, You know, Page 35 NO. Okay. So it is pretty level at this Uh?huh. And from the third floor, from your you could see down to the area that he was just a big guy that's I couldn't say whether he was the Because of the fact I couldn't give you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 36 details of what they look like. Okay. You refer to them as boys. I want to ask you if you have an opinion as to how old they were? A Well, I knew they were all under 25. Okay. A One of them seemed like he might have been close to l8, 19 years old, the bigger one. He was a big guy, he didn't really look that old. The other one he looked, I don't know, maybe he could have been just a year or so older than the other one. As far as the size and the way they were dressed, and what have you. Did you, at this point now do you recall any time when you have seen either of them in the apartment complex before that day? A Not to my knowledge I haven't seen them. And so how about how they were dressed or what they were wearing, do you have any memory of what either one of them had on? A Not specific. I really didn't pay that much attention to it. All I know is that they were, let's see, I really didn't pay that much attention to them. Just had normal clothes on. Okay. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 37 A I wasn't specifically looking for anything. Sure. A As far as they were concerned they were just people walking down, two guys walking down the street. And was that unusual that there would be two older teenagers walking down the street? A No, no. It's an apartment complex and there is apartments on each side. There are families, there are a lot of youngsters living in the apartment complex at this point. When I first moved in, there wasn't quite as many males, younger males in the apartment. So you see them all day. You just see them when I'm home, you know. Hanging out, walking around? A Hanging out, they're walking around, what is it, they are interacting with each other. Sometimes they have cars parked, they are sitting on cars. I don't really pay a whole lot of attention. Sure. A It is just that particular morning, which I do every morning, I just look out. It is really more of a safety thing. If I'm going to leave out FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 38 1 of my house, out of my apartment, I want to know 2 what is surrounding me. 3 Okay. 4 A So I don't really always look at features 5 and clothing they have on, this kind of thing. I 6 know this little guy with the dreads, he was so much 7 shorter than the bigger guy. 8 Okay. And when you saw them, can you use 9 that laser pointer and show me where on the map here 10 the boys were when you first saw them. Were they on 11 Canfield Drive? 12 A Yes. 13 Can you use that and show me where you 14 first saw them? 15 A They were on this, let me see. They were 16 kind of, this map is really confusing me because 17 they were on this side of the street. 18 Okay. I don't know if that's, that might 19 be pointing up to high? 20 A I'm just saying they were on this side of 21 the street. 22 So on 23 A They were on this side of the street. 24 On the south side of the street? 25 A They were on this side of the street. My Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 39 1 apartment, wait a minute, I'm getting confused. My 2 apartment is over there. 3 Uh?huh. Over here? (indicating) 4 A Yeah, they were on this side of the 5 Over here? (indicating) 6 A That's too far over. You have Canfield 7 Drive and Coppercreek and all of this over there. 8 They were on the opposite side of the street from my 9 apartment. 10 Okay. 11 A There is a fire hydrant on my side of the 12 street. They were like the fire hydrant was right 13 here and they were kind of just a little bit, I'm 14 trying to think now. They were a little bit, not 15 quite even with the fire hydrant. 16 But the opposite side of the street? 17 A Okay. So that is kind of confusing me 18 because I'm looking at it from my side. 19 Sure, yeah. This is an aerial view. 20 A They were on the opposite side of my 21 apartment. 22 Okay. 23 A Which means that when they were coming, 24 they were coming like walking kind of like, not 25 straight, they were kind of walking at an angle and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 40 they were like not all the way in the middle of the 2 street, but they were still in the street. 3 Okay. 4 A And when the policeman pulled up to them, 5 it kind of like blocked my view of what was going on 6 because of the size of the vehicle that the cop was 7 in. 8 Okay. Let's back up then. 9 A Uh?huh. 10 So the boys were walking on Canfield? ll A Right. 12 Were they walking in that direction toward 13 Northwinds or were they walking towards 14 A No, they were walking toward Northwinds. 15 The policeman was going toward West Florissant. 16 Okay. So the policeman's vehicle is 17 moving toward them and they are walking to the 18 police vehicle. They're facing each other, the 19 vehicle and the boys as the boys are walking? 20 A Yes, the police were going this way and 2l the boys were running this way. 22 Could you tell this was a police vehicle? 23 A Sure, it had the emblems and everything on 24 it. 25 Okay. Had how about the lights, you know, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 41 1 police cars have the red lights? 2 A He didn't have any lights on. 3 All right. 4 A It seems likes he was coming from 5 Northwinds from that way, that is the way he was 6 coming. 7 He had no signal light on and then he 8 just stopped. He didn't stop all the way because he 9 still had, his car was still running, he just had, 10 like you just know how you pull up to somebody and 11 you switch to put on your brake and he was talking 12 to them. 13 Okay. So you observed the vehicle come up 14 to the boys and you said it looked like they're 15 talking. You could see their hands moving and 16 stuff? 17 A Yeah, that's all I could see was movement. 18 I knew that there was some kind of verbal 19 conversation going on between the three people. 20 So the car is between you and the boys, 21 correct? 22 A Right. 23 And so does that mean that the boys would 24 have been on the driver's side of the vehicle? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 42 It looked like they were near the driver's door? A At that time the first beginning of it they were kind of a little ways away from him because he was talking to them through the window. Okay. And so about how long do you think this part of it last? A A_couple of seconds, not really long. Could you see the officer inside the vehicle? A I could see him inside the vehicle, but, you know, just the shadow of him because, you know, his window on my side was up, so I could only see the shadow of him. So could you tell if he was white or black, or male or female, or anything about the officer? A You mean when he was in the car? Yeah. A Not really. What about, could you tell if there was anyone else inside the vehicle? A There was only one person. All right. And so you said that this part of it where they appear to be talking to each other FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 43 last just a couple of seconds and so what happens next? A The boys walked away. Okay. And then at this point are the boys just still walking casually or they running? A They still in the street, they still just walking casually. They're not running? A No. Okay. So then what happens? A The cop backs up, he backs up a just a little bit and stops and gets out. He backs up to catch up with them. Okay. A He catches up with them, by then the boys, the little one, he's kind of away from, he was not at the window, he's kind of walking away. The bigger guy was having some kind of interaction with the cop. Okay. I think you described, initially you described that you could see their hands going back and forth? A Yeah, it was like. It was like, if I'm talking to you in the car and we're having a discussion and something happens and you're like FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 44 wrestling with each other, not wrestling, you know, the hands are going, you can see the hands going. Okay. A I could not see what was actually happening, all I could see was the moves. Was the police vehicle moving? A No, the vehicle was stopped. Was it rocking or anything like that? A No, it didn't look like it was rocking to me. And just from your, just from what you could see, could you tell or did you have an impression as to might have initiated the physical part of it, could you tell? Could you see the officer reach his hand out of the vehicle to grab the boy or you saw the boy stick his hand in the vehicle first, could you tell who started it? A No. Okay. And so could you tell whether any punches were exchanged? A Not from where I could see because, I never saw anything other than the top of the kid's head and the fact that they were tussling with each other. I never seen him bend or I never seen any movement where there was punching or anything. All FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 45 I could see was like they were wrestling through the 2 window. 3 I want you to think and if you need to 4 close your eyes and picture it in your head, did you 5 ever see the boy that's wrestling at the officer's 6 vehicle with the officer, did you ever see, you can 7 see his head, he's taller than the car then, right? 8 A Yes. 9 Did you ever see his head disappear? 10 A No. II All right. And you couldn't see what was 12 going on inside of the car? 13 A No. 14 All right. And then how long did that 15 wrestling part last? 16 A I don't know, maybe, not long, it wasn't a 17 long confrontation. Maybe about ten seconds or 18 something, I'm not sure, that's just a guess. 19 And then what happened next? 20 A The boy broke away and started to leave. 2l Okay. Now, at this point had you heard 22 any gunshots? 23 A No. 24 So when you say the boy broke away, you 25 mean the taller, bigger boy? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 46 A Yeah. 2 And I know you said that the smaller boy 3 kind of was not right at the driver's window, but 4 was kind of off to the side? 5 A Well, he was out of my sight. 6 Okay. 7 A I don't know where he wentsight, which means he could have just went 9 further down the street and would have been out of 10 my view. ll Okay. So you don't know what happened to 12 him? 13 A What happened to the other boy? l4 Right. 15 A No. All I know is he's walking away. 16 And at this point did you notice any other 17 cars that were on Canfield Drive? 18 A I didn't see any other cars. 19 And so you say that the boy broke away and 20 then what happened, what did he do? 2l A He just walked away and he walked out of 22 my view. 23 When he broke awayboy and this is the police vehicle. And, obviously, 25 they were close enough that they were touching each Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 47 1 other at the point where they were wrestling? 2 A At the window, yeah. 3 Okay. So when you said the boy broke 4 away, did he step backwards or did he turn back from 5 the vehicle and walk away that? 7 A Um, all I saw was whatever they were 8 engaged in, obviously, must have been over or 9 somebody was able to get their hand off of each 10 other and the boy walked away. 11 Okay. 12 A He kind of walked away not real slow, but 13 not real fast. 14 Okay. 15 A And that's when the policeman got out of 16 the car. 17 Okay. So now at this point, when you say 18 the boy broke away and started walking not real 19 fast, but not slow, which direction was he going? 20 A Toward what is the name of those 21 apartments? 22 Northwinds. 23 A Northwinds. 24 Okay. 25 A He just proceeded in the direction he was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom going before the incident with the policeman. officer get out of the patrol car? A at that point enough to tell woman, IO lO policeman's uniform? A gun? A A vehicle immediately after the bigger boy started to walk away or was there any because before he was out of the vehicle? A white or black? Page 48 Okay. So at this point you see the Uh?huh. Or the patrol vehicle. Could you see him Yeah. Was it a man? Yes. White or black? White. Could you tell if he's wearing a Yes. At this point could you see that he had a I don't remember. Okay. Seeing him with a gun, I'm not sure. Did the police officer get out of his It took him, he had to like open the door FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 49 and get out. Okay. A So I'm saying whatever time it took him to get, because if you are sitting in a vehicle you have to step out, get out, and he come out kind of almost at a run. He come out kind of fast. And at the time that the officer came out of the vehicle, did he then move in the direction that you saw the boy moving in? A Uh?huh, that same direction. At the time that officer got out of the vehicle and you said started, you said kind of started to go kind of fast, kind of run? A Uh?huh. Could you still see the big boy? A No. When the officer began running in that direction on Canfield, could you see if he had a gun? A I could see his left side and I don't know, I'm not sure if he had anything, but he held his hand like he had something in his hand and I could not see it. You are motioning with your right hand. So did it appear to you that he might of had FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 50 something? A He might have had somethingyou get out you have something in your hand, you carry in your hand a little bit differently, so I don't really see it then. Okay. Did the police officer then move quickly or return out of your sight? A Out of my sight. And then how long after you lost sight of police officer did you hear some gunshots? A A couple seconds. You said it was more than two, could have been four? A It could have been. It was kind of shocking to hear it because it was such a minor, thought minor thing that I saw before the gunshots. Okay. A And so I know I heard pow, pow, pow, and then I just said, you know, how you say it, I don't believe this, can't be a shooting back here. So at this point everything that you see at this point are you still looking out the same window? A No, I left the window. From the time you first looked out the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 51 window and you saw the officer and the bag boy out of your the window? A I moved away from the window. When did you move away from the window? A After the policeman went down and when I heard the shot. Okay. But before then had you been at the window the whole time, from the time when you first saw the boys talking to the time you moved away, or did you like step away and get your cell phone and then come back to the window? A No. You were at the window the whole time that you said you were watching this. Do you understand my question? A Yeah, I understand your question. What I'm trying to say was, when I saw the boys, I kind of backed away from the window a little. When I kind of just look back, I didn't really go back, I kind of look back and that's when I saw the police car. That's the only time I'm at the window until the cop moved. Okay. And now you said after you heard the shots, you didn't see the shooting, you said you got dressed? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 52 A Yeah. I just had on some shorts and things in the house, so I couldn't go out like that. I just put on my pants and went out. You went outside? A Yes. I'm hearing the shots and then I'm seeing people, you kind of could hear too, you know. I heard the shots and then I said, I saw people, you could hear people by then, people were kind of screaming. So I could hear them through the window. So that's when I put my clothes on to go out. Okay. So other than the shots, you couldn't hear anything that was going on between the boys and the officer? A No. You didn't hear anybody yelling or say anything that maybe you couldn't make out? A No. And so when you left your apartment, did you go down to Canfield Drive, did you see the boys? A I had just come out of my apartment, still in the apartment lot. I had never left the parking lot where I could see. I wasn't going to get too close to that, so I stayed back. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 53 Could you see someone lying in the street? A Yeah. And did it look like the same big boy that you had seen? A Same one. Could you tell? I could tell. A Yeah, It was the same one. Okay. Did you, when you got down there. Already officers at the scene down there or the police hadn't gotten there yet? A That's kind of questionable. I saw this one white cop, blond hair, he looked like the same one that was in the confrontation. He was putting out some cones, put some cones down to make sure that traffic gets, you know, doesn't get through there. And then after that I saw another policeman coming. Okay. Was it in a police car? A Yes. Did he come from the direction of West Florissant or from the northbound direction? A Uh, looked like to me the car was, I'm not sure. I didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to thatthem standing on the side, the one was like here, my apartment was FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 54 over here and they was on the other side of the street because they were further down. From further down from where was. Okay. How long did you stay out in that area in the parking lot area that day? A About an hour or so. Could you hear people talking, people that gathered, people were coming out of their apartments, right? A Coming out of their apartments. There was too many for them. After a while they were coming from other apartments on the other side. Did it appear to you that the people that were beginning to gather, were they becoming angry or agitated? A They were more, more like in shock. You just don't see a body laying in the street every day, you know. There were some people there that I think must have been family members that were real upset. I didn't see anybody who was actually violent. Did anyone that was out there ask you if you had seen anything? A No. Did you hear anybody saying anything about FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Iwa don't talk to the police? A officer knocked on your door? A officer? A A A Saturday? A my door. lO 10 Found out my daughter called him to let him know. I told him I saw that, involved in it. Page 55 NO. Was it later that day that a police NO. Where is it that you saw the police Never. No one ever knocked on your door? NO. Anybody leave a card for you? Later on, much later on. And would that have been like the next I saw them, but they never put a card on But you talked to the No. You didn't talk to the NO. Who did you talk to? I have a son who is in law enforcement. but I really didn't want to be And we went downtown to see and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 56 talk to the FBI. The never came to my house, ma'am. 2 The police nor the County Cops, Ferguson Police 3 never asked me any questions. 4 Okay. So you did talk to the FBI and talk 5 to them about what you saw? 6 A Yes. 7 Was there any other law enforcement 8 officers that you talked about what you saw? 9 A No. 10 Any other people besides that came and ll talk to you about what you saw? 12 A No. 13 Do you know any Ferguson police officers? 14 A No. 15 Do you know any members of Michael Brown, 16 you know, Michael Brown was the boy that was killed? 17 A Right. 18 Do you know any members of his family? 19 A No. 20 Anybody in his family or representing his 2l family, ever try to come and talk to you? 22 A No. 23 Is there anything else, let me ask you, 24 ma'am. You are wearing glasses today? 25 A Uh?huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Iwa read. distance without your glasses? A if you had your glasses on? A A A problems with your hearing? A asked you so far that you think is important for the grand jurors to know about what you saw that day or what happened after that? A kind of living in fear. stay where I am because it wasn't a good place to Page 57 Do you need those glasses to see? No, ma'am. I'm not going to test you. The only thing these are for is for me to Yeah, I got the same so. So you can see Without my glasses. And what about that day, do you remember NO. You don't remember or you didn't? I didn't have it on. You didn't? No. How about your hearing, do you have any No. Is there anything that maybe I haven't Not really, except for the fact that I'm I don't know whether to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 58 stay. It wasn't the best in the first place, but now it's like you get all kind of elements, people are always there, it is just bad. Have you, do you think that people in that area know that you've seen this, do you talk to your neighbors about it? A No, and the reason for that was that's the only reason why I agreed to make a statement was, and thatsaid it was the safest way. He didn't want to put me in harms way was for me to go to the FBI rather than, I told him I wasn't going to talk to Ferguson. And why is that? Did you have any prior experiences with the Ferguson Police Department that would make you feel that way? A No, but I seen things. Okay. A And, um. You've seen things that make you leery of talking to Ferguson? A Yes. And is that, let me ask you this. The thing that you saw, do you know if it had to do with that same police officer? A I really did not know the police officer FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 59 that was involved in the shooting. I have to kind 2 of give you a background on me. I don't have a lot 3 of interaction with policemen. 4 I think I've gotten a ticket twice 5 and they were completely out of my area. Anything 6 else, I just don't get involved with them. I do 7 what I'm supposed to do, try to follow what I'm 8 supposed to do. I work, I work most of the time, 9 I'm gone five days a week, most of the time working. 10 And when I'm home, when I'm there in that apartment, II I stay in my apartment, I mind my own business. 12 I know of maybe one or two of the 13 neighbors that's in the apartments. I speak to them 14 and I keep goingapartment, I see the 16 police coming down the streets. I have a problem 17 with them doing 50, 60 miles an hour coming down the 18 complex where you've got children and people walking 19 all the time and it is five, six, seven, eight cops 20 and they're all speeding down the street. Less than 2l five minutes later you see them coming back. You 22 see them, they all pull up into the parking lot and 23 there will be, oh, I don't know in these funny 24 looking suits and playing cards. 25 They surround the parking lot to go Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 60 in, and they go into some apartment, and I don't know which one, and then they come back out. I mean, it is just a lot of things that go on. Frankly, I'm really not use to this. This is my first experience with an apartment. I've always lived in a house and never lived in an apartment before. And the things that go on, you know, make me kind of leery of the police because they, when they come in, if you come to go get in your car, get back in your apartment, get back in your apartment. When there is really nothing going on. If you got a warrant for somebody to go in or something, you know, it is for you to talk to people. The little bit that I did do interaction that I did see with them, the tone, the way they talk to you, the way they approach you. I had a couple of them knock on my door because they was looking for somebody. You knock on my door and you want me to give some information, there is certain way you talk to me. I'm not violating anybody. You feel that the police officers A Sometimes I think they're bullies. And disrespectful? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 61 A Disrespectful, very disrespectful. And so I understand, is that some of the reasons why you didn't feel comfortable talking to Ferguson. Is it Ferguson Police Department that you have that feeling about or is it all police officers? A Not all, Ferguson. And, again, just to clarify, did you ever witness the officer involved in the shooting? A No. Ever see him behave in that manner? A No, I never saw him. To know him, I never seen him. MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have any questions. Sheila? MS. WHIRLEY: Yeah, hi. A Hi. (By Ms. Whirley) When you were interviewed by the FBI, that would have been August the 12th, a couple days after this occurred; is that right? A Right. A few days, I guess. When you talked with them, I've read your statement, it indicates that you thought, it appeared to you that Michael Brown was trying to get away from the officer when you saw FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 62 what was going on in the car. Do you still have that opinion? A Yeah, they were, I mean, they were just like, you know, I mean, it is like tussling with each other. And he was like, I guess, he was trying to get away and he finally was able to break away and that's when he walked away. Okay. It appeared to you that the police officer was actually holding onto Brown as he was trying to get away? A Yeah, he was holding, I mean, they was tussling. They were just tussling. And it was like one was trying to hold the other, you know what I'm saying? I do. And at the time that you were talking to the FBI, you thought it was the officer that was trying to hold onto Brown? A Yes. And Brown was trying to get away, that's what it appeared to you? A Uh?huh. When you saw the officer, once Brown did get away, you said he was kind of, the first you said running, but more walking fast? A Walking fast. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 63 Okay. A He was a big guy and when he broke loose, he just like went at a fast pace, but not in a total run. I understand. And he was going in the opposite direction of the officer? A Right. Same direction he was going when the policeman approached him. Approached him, okay. And then you saw the officer get out of the car and I think in your statement you said it appeared that he was running after Brown and his gun was drawn, does that sound familiar that his gun was drawn? A I'm trying to mentally see. Sure, that's what we want you to do. A Because it has been a while. I don't really want to deal with it. I understand. A When he got out of the car, he jumped out, I could see him when he was getting out of the car, okay. When he got out of the car, wherever his gun was, he must of had to reach for it because when he got out, I could see his hand on this side and then when he got so far, I could see the beginning of the gun, like he had something in his hand. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Iwa Page 64 Okay. And it looked like a gun? A Yeah. In his right hand? A Yeah. You are motioning with your right hand. A Yeah, with his right hand because it was all on that side. That is why nothing is really totally just say clear because he was on the opposite side of me and I'm looking at him from this side. Okay. A From this side. From the passenger side? A Yeah, because he was on the passenger side of the car. Who is on the passenger side of the car? A The cop when he got out, he got out of the passenger side of the car. Okay. He didn't get out of the driver's door? A I mean, I'm sorry, the driver's side of the car. I'm saying on the passenger side of the car. So your window is facing the passenger side of the car? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 65 A Passenger side of the car and he's on the driver's side. Driver's side? A That's what I meant to say. Okay. But you could see the tussle from where you were looking? A I can see movement. Okay. A That's why I say it is not clear to me who was doing what. OkayMichael Brown's head and then I can see figures or Can you see their hands? A You can, yeah, because I can see them tussling through the car, it is like movement. Okay. Can you see A You can see Michael's arms and things up here and you can see him moving. Did you ever see Michael Brown's hands go for the officer's weapon? A All the way inside the car? Yes. A No, I didn't see that. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I did not see that. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 66 Okay. And the other guy that was with him who has identified as Dorian Johnson, where did you see him once Michael Brown walked fast away from the car? A I didn't see him. You didn't see him any more? A Huh?uh. He had already went past my View. Before Michael Brown left? A Before he broke loose. Before he broke loose, okay. Did you hear any shots while the tussling was going on? A No. So at what point did you hear, I think you heard two shots; is that right? A I say I counted two and then after that I just didn't count any more. Okay. At what point did you count two shots, what was going on when you counted hearing two shots? A I started hearing two shots, the policeman had already gotten out of my View and next thing I heard was shot. Okay. So Michael Brown was walking fast away from the officer? A Uh?huh. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 67 The officer get out with his gun drawn and was following him, is that when you heard two shots? A Right, I heard the shots after that. Okay. And then after that did you hear some additional shots? Like was there a pause between the first shot you heard and then more shots were fired? A I'm trying to think if it was a pause. It was a very little pause between the shots that I heard. Okay. You heard a certain amount of shots, a very little pause and then some more shots? A Uh?huh. And then I think I read that you heard someone yelling after you heard the last shots? A Yeah, there was somebody yelling, but I don't know who it was. Okay. I think you just said you couldn't make out A I heard some yelling and then I guess that's when whoever heard the shots that was Closer to him must have started to come out of their apartments. But you didn't see any of that? A I didn't see anything, but I could hear. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 68 By then you could hear some sounds from people hollering because then it was over with. Okay. A So you hear the aftereffect of people realizing something has happened they are coming out screaming and hollering, and there was a lot of screaming and hollering. How did you know that it was over with, like what happened to let you know it was over with? A You didn't hear any more shots. Okay. So when you heard those last shots, then you heard someone yelling? A Uh?huh. And no more shots? A No more shots. No more shots, okay. When you got dressed and went back out or went out, where did you go when you went out. Did you go like on your porch, did you go down to the street, where did you go? A I come down into the parking lot. Can you show us here on the map if it is visible or if you can figure out where you were? A There's a parking lot, see this parking lot here? Use the laser pen. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 69 A This really confuses me. And if you can't do it, it's okay. A When you come out of my apartment, there's a parking lot and a parking lot there and there's a parking on the side, which is like they got there looks like that's the parking on the side, but there is also parking in between. Okay. A I just come down and walked out of my apartment and walked over toward. Canfield Drive, this is Canfield Drive. A But I didn't leave the parking lot, I stayed back on the parking lot because they were already, by the time I got down they were putting out cones. Okay. A So I just stayed back. I was able to see even with me standing backthe street. All I had to do was walk so far and then I could see down the street. Okay. So they were putting cones out by the time you came? A Uh?huh. So you saw other police officers and police cars by the time you came downstairs? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 70 1 A Well, when I first came downstairs I only 2 saw one policeman and then another one showed up and 3 then another one showed up. 4 Shortly thereafter? 5 A Uh?huh. 6 But at the time of the altercation, the 7 shooting occurred, you only saw one officer? 8 A I saw only one police car. 9 One police car. Were the people, you said 10 they started coming out, when you came out when they 11 were putting out cones, is that when you saw a lot 12 more people coming out? 13 A People started coming out. Boy's laying 14 here, on the side I am, you could see them flowing 15 from back here. And then they started from that 16 side, and then all of the sudden they were coming 17 out, because see, there is apartments back there. 18 So they were coming out, they were coming around 19 into where, where my apartment is into that parking 20 lot. 21 And then there wasn't, I'm trying to 22 think how long after all this happened that I saw 23 his mother come out. She was easy to recognize, she 24 had the blond hair. 25 Did you know his mother? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 71 A No. Never met her before? A I heard, the people were saying she kept hollering, my baby, my baby, you know she was the mother. Right. A And they were trying to hold her. There was just a lot of people, a lot of people and a lot of screaming. Can you show us on the map where you saw his body fall? You didn't see it fall, but where it was when you came out? If you can. Can you tell on this map where his body rested, Michael Brown's body? A It is kind of hard for me to say because. Can you hit that little button. If you cannot A Canfield Drive, why is Canfield Drive up there. Copperfield, should be, I thought that was Coppercreek? A I thought that was on the other side of where I am, but anyway, he was like my apartment is right there, I'm right here, he was down from me somewhere in here. (indicating) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 72 Okay, all right. A Cause see right here, right here on this end is the dividing line where my View gets, but not there, but you know what I'm saying? I do. A As you come out of my apartment you come there, right there, I can't see after that. Okay. A That's the end of, like the apartment ends there and then I can't see any more from there. I have to come out of my apartment and come to the end of the parking lot and look down the street. One thing you mentioned that it was such a minor incident to end up, I think, in somebody being dead? A Right, it was. Tell me what you mean by that? A Here is two guys walking down the street. They're in the street. The policeman pulls up and says something to them. They say something back, they start to walk away. Then the police backs up and then there is a confrontation between him and one of the guys. Then the next thing you hear is shots. I mean, it was such a small incident FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 73 1 if they were in the streets, he didn't want them in 2 the streets and he told them get on the sidewalk. 3 That should have been it. 4 And if they didn't obey and get on the 5 sidewalk, then what are your thoughts? 6 A What are my thoughts? 7 Yes. 8 A I don't think he should have died from it, 9 he could have arrested him. 10 Okay. 11 A Jaywalking, and that's basically what it 12 was if that's what it was. It just seemed to me it 13 was just such a, 1 mean, that's just my point of 14 View that it was such a minor incident, the boys 15 didn't have a gun, there was no big deal on just 16 jaywalking and just to me it seems a waste of life 17 to me, that's just me. 18 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. Questions? 19 MS. ALIZADEH: I just want to clarify some 20 things. 21 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Ma'am, I totally 22 understand and agree that as we sit here now some 23 several weeks later and we have learned a lot about 24 what happened that day, it does seem like a waste, 25 it seems terrible that this happened. A couple of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 74 questions I have for you though is that when you were looking out your window, you said you could see the hands going back and forth? A Right. Do you remember telling the FBI agents that you could see Michael Brown's hands in the police vehicle? A In the window of the vehicle. Right. Inside the vehicle, past the window. If the window were up, the hands were inside, correct? A Yeah, if they're wrestling, there's confrontation, I'm in your window, my hands are in your window. Okay. From your vantage point, because when Sheila asked you if you could see Michael Brown going for or trying to grab the officer's gun and you said no. A I didn't see that. So what I want to clarify is, are you saying that didn't happen because you could see what was happening, or are you saying, you know, I can't tell what was going on in the car so I didndon't know what happened? A That's what I'm trying to tell you. All I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 75 could see was their hands going back and forth. Okay. A I never saw anybody reaching for a gun or reaching into the car to try to get his gun. In that case from what I could seereached into the car, he would of had to have been in some kind of way, no way he could have stood up straight and reach in the car without me seeing it. Okay. A And all I ever saw was the top of his head and them wrestling through the thing. I never saw him bend to reach in the car, I never saw the policeman reaching in his gun holster to get his gun, all I saw was them wrestling at the thing. Okay. A Now, but that don't mean that I didn't, there's something I could have missed something, but I did not see anything beyond that. Okay. When you first saw the boys, and you just said today you really don't recall what they were wearing in particular. You could see their hands when they were walking, right? A Uh?huh. Did you see anything in their hands? I don't remember seeing anything in their FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 76 1 hands, no. I don't recall seeing anything in their 2 hands. 3 And now, I mean, we know today, we know, 4 and nobody is disputing that Michael Brown, we know 5 he did not have a weapon, okay. I'm not trying to 6 imply that he did when I ask you these questions, 7 but when you saw him, you couldn't tell if he could 8 of had a weapon in a pocket, in a waistband, from 9 your vantage point you wouldn't be able to tell 10 that, would you? 11 A No. 12 And once he ran out of your sight, and if 13 you're here and this building right here, this one 14 right here, once they run past a certain point, you 15 can't see beyond that building to what happens, 16 rightwhatever happened after they ran 19 out of your sight, you can't say one way or another 20 what happened; is that right, is that fair to say? 21 A Fair to say. 22 Okay. So at the time, and today I know we 23 know a lot more today than, obviously, people knew 24 as it was going on. But at you sit here today, I 25 know you said it just seemed like such a minor Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 77 incident, the officer should have arrested him for jaywalking? A No, no, that's what I'm saying. I was just saying in the real world or in a good scenario what I saw just seemed like such a minor thing for did. Okay. A That's all I'm saying. Okay. A Just seemed such a waste. I'm not saying what happened when it got past me because I can't testify to that, I don't know anything about that. And exactly what was happening inside that car, you really couldn't tell? A No, and when I made the statement to the FBI I told them that. I could not see inside the car. Okay. A All I could see was them wrestling at the window. And from your vantage point, you did not see him, Michael Brown, I mean the big guy, it didn't look to you like he was reaching far enough in the car to where he would be reaching for a weapon? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 78 1 A No, but then if I'm looking at you, there 2 might be some things that I don't see. 3 Uh-huh. 4 A Some things that my memory don't record. 5 I'm not going to say what did or did not happen. I 6 can only tell you what I saw. 7 If, I'm not saying this is true or not, 8 I'm just asking you to think about this. If the 9 officer had drawn his weapon and he was holding his 10 weapon closer to his, the door. In other words, if 11 he has a right handed holster, and then if he had 12 removed a weapon and had it closer to the door, 13 would Michael Brown have been able to, given what 14 you were judging from his height and from what you 15 saw where his head was and everything, could he have 16 touched or reached the weapon if that were the case? 17 A Well, I guess if the policeman had the gun 18 up in his, up high enough where he didn't have to 19 bend to get it or to move his body to get it, I'm 20 assuming that could have happened, that could 21 happen. I don't know that. 22 And I think that, I don't want to imply 23 that you are saying it did or did not happen because 24 I think it is clear that you don't know. 25 A No, I don't. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 79 And that's fair, but when you said you 2 didn't see him, it couldn't have been like he was 3 reaching for his gun, are you basing that assumption 4 on if the officer still had the weapon in his 5 holster on his right hip, you never saw Michael 6 Brown go far enough in the vehicle to actually 7 removehis right hip, 8 would that be fair to say? 9 A Yeah, that would be fair to say. I can 10 say that, that I didn't see that. ll Okay. But if the gun were already out of 12 the holster and maybe being held across the 13 officer's body, is it possible then from where 14 Michael Brown was, that he could reach the gun 15 without having to lean in the way you would of 16 thought he would have to lean? 17 A Could be. If I was in the same position 18 and you could see me and he put it up high enough 19 for me to do it within arms reach, I guess I could 20 do it to. 2l And, again, I'm not saying one way or 22 another, I'm just asking you because I think you 23 made certain assumptions when you were saying he 24 couldn't reach the gun and that's based upon you 25 believing that the officer's gun was still in his Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 80 holster that he couldn't reach it? 2 A Yeah. 3 Okay. 4 MS. ALIZADEH: I know you all have a lot 5 of questions. 6 MS. WHIRLEY: Just one thing. My question 7 wasn't could he reach the gunMichael Brown struggling with the officer over the 9 gun? 10 A No. II MS. WHIRLEY: That's my question. 12 MS. ALIZADEH: I understand, Sheila. 13 MS. WHIRLEY: I was making it clear. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: I didn't know if she meant 15 that didn't happen because I saw, I could see it and 16 it didn't happen, or if her answer was I didn't see 17 that. 18 A Well, see what I was saying when I say 19 that I didn't see him reaching in the car, I did not 20 see that. All I saw was them tussling at the 2l window, I never saw him reach in, or anything like 22 that. 23 Now, that's not saying that what you 24 said about the gun as far as the policeman was 25 concerned that it was in a different position, but Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 81 1 when the question was asked of me was, did he reach 2 in to try to take the cop's gun. And I said, no, I 3 did not see that. 4 MS . ALIZADEH: Okay . I think that and 5 these are all just points we are trying to clarify. 6 A Uh-huh. 7 MS. ALTZADEH: I'm absolutely not trying 8 to imply one thing or the other. So questions? 9 Did 10 you ever at any time see him stick his head inside 11 the police car? 12 A No. 13 When you, 14 the first time you saw the two guys walking and the 15 police approaching them and you say you saw the 16 police drive away and proceeded on or the young man 17 proceeded on. When the police came back, could you 18 tell if he came back in a speedy way or did he just 19 back up normally? 20 A What happened was, he said something to 21 the boys. The boys said something to him. The boys 22 proceeded to walk away. The policeman must have 23 thought for a second, he backed up to go back to 24 where they were. 25 That's what happened. I mean, he Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 82 didn't speed up any because they only had gotten a few feet from him when he decided, when I guess he wanted to have some more to say to them, he just backed up. Okay, thank you. A Uh?huh. When you saw Michael Brown's head on the top of the SUV, do you know if he was wearing anything on his head? A I think whatever, you know. Thank you. MS. ALIZADEH: Ma'am, I'm just asking you if you recall when you talked to the FBI agents, and these were two women agents, right? A Right. MS. ALIZADEH: Do you remember telling them that you saw, and I'm talking about when the vehicle backed up, that you saw the vehicle jerk and back up a short distance? A Yeah, he did. Cause when he backed up he jerked, like he put his foot on the brake or something. MS. ALIZADEH: I was trying to clarify when you were asking about and I wanted to know what FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 83 you meant about that. A If the policeman probably wanted to say something, he didn't want them to get away. So what he did when he put it, just when he backed it up, he just put on his brakes real hard, real fast and the car kind of jerked. MS. ALIZADEH: From your position, did it look like he came close to hitting the boys or did his vehicle contact either boy when he backed up? A I didn't see that. MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. You said you don't know if you want to continue to live there any more. Do you feel it is because of the police or because of the residents and the danger or everything? A I'm going to move anyway. Okay. A I've got a lease and I can't move right now. I mean, my family's having major problems. Yeah. A There's a lot of things that make me want to move. Too many young people, too much riffraff, there is shooting, they get out at night, on weekends and shoot up in the air and all that stuff. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 84 The police has been called several 2 times for it. The apartment managers or owners, or 3 whoever they are, does nothing about it and all of 4 that is violations. They should have been gone, but 5 they do it. 6 I'm getting too old to be putting up 7 with the riffraff. They are a bunch of youngsters. 8 Youngsters are in a learning phase, they do all 9 kinds of crazy stuff. And I just want to live 10 somewhere where I don't have to live with all of ll that, okay. 12 Has nothing to do with the cop 13 shooting the kid or the kid causing the shooting, 14 whatever it was, had nothing to do with that. But 15 the aftermath of this is what I'm talking about. 16 I don't want to live years, all of 17 the sudden somebody come and either take my life or 18 shoot me up or beat me up, and I'm abiding by all 19 the rules or as many of them as can. I'm not 20 going to say I'm perfect. We all do things that we 2l shouldn't do, all right. 22 MS. ALTZADEH: Any other questions? Okay. 23 This will conclude the testimony of this witness. 24 (End of the testimony of 25 MS. ALTZADEH: This is Kathi Alizadeh on Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 85 October 23rd, 11:07 a.m. Present in the grand jury is Sheila Whirley and all l2 grand jurors and the court reporter. The next thing we're going to do is play a statement for you. The statement is from a witness named I believe it's, l'll verify that. She had previously talked to the County Police, but this is a statement you're going to hear is a statement that was done yesterday, I believe, at FBI headquarters. I can't be sure, but the statement is being taken by, the questioning is being done by who is the attorney for the Department of Justice. You have heard her voice on several statements. You will also hear the voice of who is the assistant United States attorney who you probably heard his voice on several statements. And there is also an FBI agent who is a female who is a female who pipes in a couple of times during the statement. I'm not sure as I sit here today because I listened to this last night because I got it last night because it happened yesterday afternoon. I can't recall if they identified who the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 86 1 FBI officer, but this was a statement done 2 yesterday. 3 The statement lasts an hour, and hour 40 4 minutes, 38 minutes. So it might be that we break 5 after hearing the first hour of it. Since it is a 6 little after a 11 now, and then you guys can have 7 your lunch, then we would resume and let you listen 8 to the last part of it and then have the witness 9 testify in the afternoon, all right. 10 With that being said, because we 11 don't have a transcript, I would like you to 12 transcribe the interview. But we can pause the 13 recording since we've marked this disc that contains 14 the interview as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50. 15 (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50 16 marked for identification.) 17 I don't know street names, 18 but I can give you detail directions that I went. 19 MS. Oh, that's fine, I'm just 20 going to go ahead and just kind of do a little 21 introduction, okay. 22 It is October 22nd, 2014. It is 23 approximately 2:14 p.m. This is special agent 24 at the FBI field office, 2222 Market 25 Street, St. Louis, Missouri. I am here with USA Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom are interviewing? MS. is it, MS. MS. MS. number? MS. number for you? MS. MS. MS. MS. your name for me? Page 87 DOJ prosecuting attorney And, can you spell, It's capital Do you have a middle name? What's your date of birth? And your social security What is the best contact That's area code Is that your cell phone? Yes, I'm straight cell. What's that? I'm straight cell. Oh. No landline. What's your address. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 88 2 3 4 MS. Okay. All right. 5 MS. So before we begin, you 6 introduced as is that okay if I call you 7 that? 8 Yes. 9 MS. Okay. I want to let you know 10 we talked a little bit when you came in. We're just ll trying to figure out what the truth is and so we 12 don't want to talk about what you may have heard 13 from other people or what you have seen on TV or 14 read or anything like that, just what you know, 15 okay. This investigation, like any other, where we 16 are just trying to get at the truth. 17 We have to let you know that, we tell this 18 to everybody, if you lie to a federal agent, and 19 you, (inaudible) it is a crime. You are better off 20 not saying a word and just not talking to us if you 2l plan on lying and sitting in here and telling us 22 lies. 23 With that in mind, we just ask you, we are 24 going to ask you to tell us what you remember. If 25 you don't know something, or don't remember, that's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 89 perfectly fine. Just, you know, as I said, our goal 2 is to figure out what happened, okay? 3 Right. 4 MS. We don't want you to think if 5 one way or the other (inaudible) of what you have to 6 say, you are just a piece of the puzzle, okay? 7 Okay. 8 MS. Can you just tell us, we know 9 what you originally said in your first statement, 10 but we as prosecutors wanted to get to meet you. So II can you just rundown what you saw and experienced on 12 August 9th? 13 Um, okay. You want me to 14 start from where I started at 15 MS. Well, yes, I know you stopped 16 at the QT, but you were on your way somewhere to 17 begin withvisit a 19 friend from high school that I thought lived off 20 Florissant, but turned out lived in Florissant. 2l MS. Okay. 22 I ended up in Florissant 23 or on Florissant Road. 24 MS. Okay. 25 Once I realized that I was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 90 lost, this is before I had my GPS. I stopped at the QT. 270 is up here and I stopped at the QT and I asked for directions. And I didn't follow them very well, instead of making a right out of QT, I made a left. And I realized I went the wrong way, so I made another immediate left. But then I seen the apartments, my friend lived in an apartment. I thought, well, maybe I was in the right spot after all. And I went down that street and I passed two streets and then a parking lot and went into the second parking lot, which is technically the same one because it loops around a building. And I pulled in there and I made a left and I parked there and then I walked back out in front of that building to ask for directions. MS. Okay. And then that's when I seen the officer's SUV for the first time, it is a bigger vehicle, for the first time. And he was talking to two African?American gentlemen. And then he started to leave and then he put the car in reverse and said something, and I did not hear what was said. And then the next thing I know, the heavier set African?American was in the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 91 car from approximately the waist up. And then I heard the gun go off, I didn't hear any kind of conversation. I heard noises, but not what was being said. I heard the gun go off, I only remember one gunshot. The skinnier African?American took off running and the heavier set one that they call Mike Brown stood up, and I seen him pull his shorts up and take off running. The officer got out of the car and had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun in his right hand. And his right hand was shaking and he was stumbling from one foot to the other, and I don't know what he said. All I heard was, or I'll shoot. And then that's when Michael Brown, the heavier set, turned around and face?to?face with the officer and he had his hands out extended like this, or whatever, kind of like, you know, what are you going to do. MS. Okay. He wasn't saying anything at that time that I heard. And then the officer had his gun, was drawn and pointed at him, and that's when Brown started to charge, you know, kind of like FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 92 a football, like this, with his hands out. MS. And your hands are clenched. Right, his hands were clenched at this time. He was bent, but not much. It was kind of like a football charge not, you know, and then that's when the gunshots started. I don't remember the sequence or the order. I know that the gun went off a couple of times and then stopped and then went off again. And then when the last gunshot went off, which was in the head, that's when I started to get freaked out and left. As I was leaving, I couldn't go out the same parking lot I had come in, they had, that was all blocked. So I zigzagged through the parking lot and I popped out the third one over here, and I made a right and went through the neighborhood. I got lost in there for about 20 minutes, but I ended up on a street that goes in a complete circle and then I made a right and popped out on a side road next to QT, which is where I asked the person at QT again where the nearest highway was. MS. So let me go back and ask you some questions I have. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 93 Okay. MS. Starting with the QT. When you went and asked for directions, did you go inside or did you ask somebody in the parking lot? I asked somebody at the gas pump. MS. Both times or first time? Both times. MS. And did you go inside at all. NO. If we got surveillance video from the gas pump, you would be on it? Yes. MS. Okay. And so when you drove, you said you ended up by an apartment complex. You thought it was your friend's apartment complex, what made you think that? Because she had said she lived in apartments right off Florissant. And I thought she meant right off Florissant, she meant in Florissant. I never did find my friend. MS. Okay. Before you were describing it you said that you thought that you noticed these apartment complexes and you went in thinking that was where she lived and then you got FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 94 out and asked for directions again. At what point 2 did you still think you were at the apartment 3 complex? 4 No, once I got in there 5 because once I got past the first two streets and I 6 started to go around the bend, it didn't look like 7 the pictures that I had from her, and that's why I 8 was confused. 9 MS. What is your friend's name. 10 ll MS. Do you have a phone number for 12 herhome. She's, l4 we met when 15 16 MS. So you said in high school, 17 right? 18 We met my freshman year of 19 high school. 20 MS. OkayCorrect. 24 MS. What school did you go to? 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 95 1 It was early '80s I guess. 2 MR. you 3 went to? 4 Yes. 5 MR. is her name? 6 Yes. 7 MR. How do you spell her last 8 nameyou spell 11 with an I or a 12 13 MS. Have you spoken to her since 14 this? 15 Just a couple times. We 16 were really, really close when 17 And then 18 they had that situation 19 what do you callshe wouldn't have to deal with 23 it. We went through a lot together, so. 24 MS. You said you never made it to 25 her house that day, did you call her afterwards? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 96 I emailed her and told her. 2 MS. What did you tell her? 3 Just that I had gotten lost. 4 I didn't tell anybody anything except for my 5 ex?husband, which he 6 MS. Who is 7 He's being obnoxious. 8 MS. What do you mean? 9 Well, he told me not to come 10 in here at all. ll MS. Why? 12 Just because we have three 13 14 MS. Meaning what? 15 He doesn't, he has cable, I 16 don't. He hears about the death threats and I7 everything and just says that he doesn't want his 18 mixed up in it. 19 MS. So why did you decide to go 20 against his suggestion? 2l Because the one thing my 22 father taught me before he passed away regardless, 23 you always tell the truth and you always admit to 24 whatever, if it's the truth. 25 Unfortunately, I have been in trouble once Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen,Page 97 before by the law. MS. Okay. How did you get in trouble, what was that? I grabbed a black checkbook instead of a brown checkbook or blue checkbook. MS. Did you get convicted of anything? Yes, because my dad, even though it was an accident, it is still my signature and the adult thing to do would be to accept responsibility, so I pled guilty. MS. What did you plead guilty to, what was the charge? You know, I really am not 100 percent sure. I think it was check fraud is what it would have gone down. MS. How long ago was that? In '07, I believe. MS. Did you I didn't do any time. I explained the situation to the judge and the judge said since I was taking responsibility, he would give me just probation. MS. How long were you on probation for? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 98 Three years. MS. Was it a felony. It was considered two felonies, but they did an SIS. MS. Okay. So that as long as I didn't get in trouble throughout the three years that it wouldn't be on my record. MS. Okay. MR. Did you have any trouble during that three years? No. MR. Have you had any other kind type of problems at all like that? I haven't even got so much as a ticket so, before or after. MS. So when you pulled into the parking lot in this complex, you got out of your car to ask for directions, was there somebody that you were going over to ask directions or were you just looking for somebody? I walked up to the first gentleman I seen, he was kind of a heavy set guy with a green shirt, and had his hair in braids and it was real short. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 99 MS. Okay. Why did you park your car and walk up to him as opposed to just drive up to him? It's just what I do. MS. Okay. It is easier for me just to park, get out, and then I can sit and conversate and I was able to have a cigarette. MS. I guess, you know, if it is all good but I've always done it. MS. And that's fine. I'm talking about the reality of life is you are in a neighborhood that you don't know and you are getting out of your car and walking up to somebody you don't know, and I don't know, you are more trustful than the average person, or maybe I'm more skeptical than the average person, especially a woman in a neighborhood that you don't know. I just always have. I don't know, I could be down in the city or whatever and ask for directions, and I will get out. MS. Okay. So you get out I don't get lost any more, my mom bought me a GPS. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 100 MS. Okay. You get out of the car and you see this guy, and at what point did you notice the police car? I didn't notice him until they were talking the first time. And no, I didn't hear anything that was said the first time around. He was just kind of driving up next to him. MS. Did you get the opportunity to ask this guy for directions or was your attention diverted to the police car? I started to ask him, and then I lit a cigarette, and then my attention became drawn to the police car. That's why I had to ask directions again at QT. MS. Was the guy you are talking to, was he watching was going on also? Yes. MS. So you look over and you see the police car and you say that, when I say car, I mean SUV, and you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and who? The, well, I know it is Mike Brown now, at the time it was a heavy set African?American and a skinny African?American. MS. And did you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 101 1 Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean 2 to interrupt you, when, um, he backed up, when he 3 first tried to get out, the heavier set one did push 4 the door shut, but so did the skinnier one. And the 5 skinnier one lost a bracelet on the ground, it is a 6 gold bracelet. 7 MS. Okay. 8 I'm sorry. 9 MS. You're fine, totally fine, okay 10 I know in your last statement you said one of the 11 things you kept saying was I'm not a very good 12 witness. 13 I'm not. 14 MS. Let me tell you this as a 15 prosecutor. A good witness is somebody who is 16 truthful. And that's all it takes to be a good 17 witness, right, nobody should be a professional 18 witness, right. Because we just ask about what we 19 see going on in our daily lives. 20 I kind of want to get that out of your 21 head, just focus on the fact that all we want is the 22 truth, right, so and that's ultimately what we are 23 getting at. However, you characterize yourself good 24 or bad, that doesn't matter either as long as you 25 tell the truth, okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 102 Okay. MS. Back up to when you saw the SUV and you said you saw interaction and you can call him Mike Brown, you know their names now? I know their names now. MS. So then you can call them Mike or Dorian, whatever you feel comfortable. Okay. MS. You see the SUV and you see the interaction, who was interacting with whom? They both were interacting the second time. MS. So the initial thing that you see. The initial time I only seen the officer say something to Mike Brown. MS. Okay. How do you know the officer was talking to Mike Brown. He was closer and Mike was responding. And it was definitely conversation, I just have no idea what was said. MS. Okay. Was Mike Brown going in the same direction or opposite direction of the SUV. When I looked over there they were side by side. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 103 MS. Okay. Where was Dorian Johnson relative to the The first time? MS. Right, in this initial, when you initially see him. He was off about 3 feet. MS. Was he closer to the back of the SUV or the front of the SUV compared to Mike? Compared to Mike, I would say the back, but I don't really remember. MS. Okay. I don't, I honestly, I mean, I didn't give it a whole lot of thought until after Mike Brown went into the car. MS. We understand that. Our job is to push you and see how much detail we can get out of you. Right. MS. If you don't know, you don't know, that's why we are asking all of these questions. MR. When did you first see Mike and Dorian? From the first time that they were communicating. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 104 MR. Okay. I paid absolutely no attention, there was a ton of people there. MR. You didn't see them until they were actually, until the police car was actually beside them and they were communicating with the policeman? Correct. I'll stick with that because I might have seen them, I just didn't, it's not dawned, I can't say for sure or anything, you know, I didn't give them any of my attention. MS. How long were you there before you saw that? It was like instantly. MS. So you didn't notice when you were driving in, you didn't notice anything? No. I didn't pay, I mean, I was staring so much at the building addresses and where there were the most people that I could get out and ask for directions. MS. So if you saw anybody close to the road, you would have stopped and get out of the car. I would have stopped and get out of the car so I could have a cigarette, and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 105 actually get step by step instructions. I'm not good on directions. So I couldn't get ahold of anybody, I didn't have of my cell phone on me at the time so. MS. Okay. So you see, you are at the part where you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and Michael Brown, because your statement is based upon what you, You could tell there was some sort yourself, saw. of interaction, correct? Correct. I didn't realize that the officer was even an officer. When I first pulled in, or whatever, he was coming this way, I guess, and I never even acknowledged that he was an officer when I pulled in. MS. What sort of vehicle was he in? Looks like one of those like van or SUV type. MS. Okay. Big vehicles. MS. Was it marked? Yes, it had police and then underneath it said Ferguson. MS. So then what about when you say you didn't realize he was an officer? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 106 I wasn't paying any attention. I was so focused on staring at the building numbers that when I pulled in, or whatever, and I passed and there was a lot of people standing right here, I just pulled in right away. It wasn't until I got out and walked this way, or whatever, that I realized that, you know, that it was even an officer. I was going to wait and just get directions from the guy because the officer was already busy. MS. Okay. My next question was, did you consider getting directions from the officer. I didn't, no, because he was already occupied. MS. Okay. And he looked very occupied. MS. All right. So after you see this interaction between Michael Brown and the officer, then what's the next thing you see? After the first altercation? MS. We are just talking about step by step. Okay. MS. You're getting out of your car, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepengnconl Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 107 you see him before you spoke to the man about directions; is that right? Correct. MS. And then what? And then the officer goes up, you know, like he's going to drive away, he just a few rolls of the doesn't really go too far, tire, or whatever. And then he comes back, or whatever, you know, comes and backs up. And Dorian and Michael Brown, Brown walked up to the car and words were exchanged and then Brown entered into the vehicle from the waist up. MS. Let me ask you when you say words were exchanged, what do you mean by that? The officer's mouth was moving. I have no idea what was said. MS. I'm just asking why you chose that phrase. Right. MS. You use that phrase exchange, the officer's mouth was moving, was there any I did not hear Mike Brown. MS. Were you able to see Mike Brown's face at that point? No, he was facing, because I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 108 1 was here on the sidewalk and the officer's car was 2 kind of cockeyed or crooked, or whatever, and Brown 3 was right at the window. 4 MS. Your vantage point was of the 5 driver's side? 6 Correct. 7 MS. Based on what you are 8 describing now. Okay. And so you see words were 9 exchanged and then what happened? 10 The officer had words. 11 MS. Okay. l2 I seen him talking, but I 13 don't know what he had said. And then the next 14 thing I know, Mike Brown was lunging into the car, 15 like dived in and it was only from the waist up that 16 he was in the car. 17 MS. What was your reaction when you 18 saw this? 19 My honest reaction? 20 MS. Yeah, absolutely. 21 I was cussing. At the time 22 I was just like, I actually even said to the guy, is 23 he F?ing crazy. 24 MS. You can use the language, we 25 have heard worse, we've said worse. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 109 1 I said, is he fucking crazy. 2 MS. Okay. 3 And then it just starts 4 happening, I didn't say anything more than that. 5 After the gun went off, I did say damn and then I 6 said shit, and then I got really nervous. 7 MS. I don't need a litany of curse 8 words you used. I just kind of want to understand 9 your reaction to what is going on. So you see, you 10 said lunge in and from how far down his body? 11 To about his belt, naval. 12 MS. Okay. And that's when, and 13 your reaction was one of, I guess, surprise, right? 14 I had never seen anybody 15 treat an officer like that way before. 16 MS. What was Dorian doing at the 17 time? 18 At that time he punched the 19 car door shut because he punched it with his wrist 20 and he punched it with his wrist, something gold 21 fell off his hand out of his right wrist I think. 22 MS. Let me ask you this. At what 23 point did the door open to get punched shut by 24 Dorian? 25 When did it open? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 110 MS. Yeah. After I heard the gunshot. MS. Okay. So when you're saying, maybe I'm getting confused. When you are talking about Dorian punching the door shut, that's after the gunshot? Before the gunshot. MS. Okay. Once the gunshot went off, Dorian took off. MS. Okay. Let's back up a little bit. I'm sorry. MS. No, no, no, don't apologize. When you see the officer saying some sort of words to Michael Brown, Michael Brown is by the door, was the door open or closed? At that time the door was shut. MS. Okay. He attempted to open it, because it did open, it did unlatch. MS. He, meaning who? The officer unlatched the door. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 111 MS. How do you know it unlatched? It started to open, you could tell that it was definitely in the process of opening. MS. Okay. And then how did it close? With Michael Brown's hands. MS. You are showing The base of his hands, he shoved it shut the first time, and then the second time he, I can't, I don't know. I don't know if it was his fist or with his gut. MS. You are saying the officer tried to open the door twice in a row? Correct. MS. When did Dorian get involved with that? That was right after the second time he went up and punched the rear View mirror. MS. Punched, meaning what? With his wrist, with his right wrist. MS. So you are showing the side of his hand? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 112 The side of his wrist. MS. The side of his wrist? In a fist motion. MS. Okay. And then what did you say about something gold? Something gold fell off Dorian Johnson's wrist, the skinnier one. MS. Okay. And it fell on the ground. MS. And after that happened, is that when That's when the gun went off. MS. When did Brown 1unge into the car. Okay. I'm sorry, you are making me nervous. MS. I don't want to make you nervous. After the second time Brown shoved the door shut, the second time, I don't know if it was with his fist or with his, you know, with his gut. And Dorian Johnson was standing there at that time, he looked like he punched the rear View mirror, but he ended up knocking something off his FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 113 right wrist and it fell on the ground. He went to bend down to pick it up and that's when Mike Brown jumped into the car head first, but only went up to his naval into the window. MS. Were you able to see what the officer was doing when Mike Brown did that, when he went through the window? He was getting punched. MS. How can you tell? Because Mike Brown's fist kept going up and down. You knew he was getting hit, even though he was all the way back. MS. When you say he was getting hit all way back, you talking about who? The officer was being shoved back. MS. Okay. As Brown was laying on top of him from the waist up and Brown's fist was going up and down on the side. MS. How were you able to see this if when I asked you before you said Brown's body, a lot of it was blocking the doorway of the car? He was in the car from here FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxaan Page 114 up, bent over and the officer was laid back in the car and Dorian was almost completely on top of him. MS. Dorian was? No, the heavier set one. I'm going to stick with that if that's all right. MS. Whatever makes you feel I really don't know which one is which. MS. I want you to describe this to me in the way that is most comfortable for you. Okay. I don't want you to think we are trying to get any certain way out of you. I need to go with the heavier set and the skinnier one. MS. Okay. I don't want you to be nervous at all. If at any time you don't want to talk to us, we are not forcing you to. Right. MS. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable or we're making you nervous, we just want to know what happened, okay? Right. MS. And you tell us in the easiest way that you can, all right. All right. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 115 1 MS. If you want to use bigger one 2 and little one, that's fine. 3 Okay. 4 MS. The bigger one you said was in 5 the window and the officer you said was leaning 6 back? 7 Right. And there's about 8 this much of a gap between Brown, the heavier set 9 one's body and the thing of the car, the window. 10 MS. So there is a gap 11 There is just enough of a 12 gap that you could see the heavier set one's fist 13 going up and down into the officer's face. 14 MS. Okay. 15 Or into the officer's body, 16 put it that way because I didn't know where the 17 officer was getting hit until after the officer got 18 out. 19 MS. All right. And so while this 20 is going on, what's your reaction? 21 At this time I was really 22 scared, but I was just kind of standing there, it 23 almost seemed fake at some point or whatever, and 24 now and then just disbelief. 25 MS. Was the guy next to you, was he Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 116 saying anything to you? At that time, no. MS. Were you standing next to him? I was standing exactly next to him. MS. Do you know his name? NO. MS. Did you ask him his name? I didn't really care about names at that point. MS. Okay. Did you know anything else about him other than? Green T?shirt, heavy set, and braids. MS. Okay. Do you know, do you happen to know the address near where you were standing, did you look at the numbers? No, but when you pull into, down there and as soon as you go around the bend and you start to see the buildings, it is the very first building on the right. MS. Okay. All right. So let's go back. You see the bigger one, these punching motions and then what's the next thing that happened? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 117 That's when I heard the gun go off. MS. Okay. And Dorian Johnson, the skinnier one, took off towards the street that QT is on. MS. Okay. Heavier set one took off in the opposite direction down towards into the complex. MS. Okay. And then the officer opened the door, and he had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun was in his right hand, and he was wobbling from foot to foot and he looked confused, you know. He was kind of stumbling, or whatever, like he wasn't with it, does that make sense? MS. You're fine. He obviously had just got hit. MS. You said obviously got hit based on what? The way he was acting, it just looked like he was dizzy. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 118 1 MS. Okay. When you say his left 2 hand, was it above his ears on his face? 3 Get out of the car, right 4 hand was on the gun, so yeah. 5 MS. Where was his hand, on his 6 face? 7 Now, you got me confused. I 8 want to say the left side of his faceconfused. 10 MS. I don't want to confuse you. 11 It was like right up here. 12 (indicating) 13 MS. You showing his entire palm. 14 Yeah, he just had it up to 15 his head. 16 MS. Up to his head? 17 Yeah. 18 MS. Was his palm from his mouth all 19 the way up. 20 Correct. 21 MS. From what I can flap his head 22 from what you remember. 23 From what I remember. 24 MS. Okay. And then what happened? 25 And then he wobbled from Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 119 foot to foot, I don't know what he said. I remember hearing or I'll shoot, but that's all I remember hearing. And then that's when the heavier set one turned around and faced him. And they were still that distance away. MS. Had the officer, when the heavy set one turned around, had the officer run or pulled forward in his car or was he still by his war. He was still by his car. He didn't go towards, Dorian, I didn't see him head that way towards the heavier set one until after the heaver set one turned around and proceeded, you know, started to come this way. MS. Okay. So describe when the heavier set one turned around, describe what he was doing? He turned around and he put his hands out like this. (indicating) MS. That's, now, your hands are here, your hands are kind of out at your sides. It was like a football thing. MS. Okay. They weren't like this. (indicating) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 120 1 MS. Your hands are clenched? 2 Right. 3 MS. Out, but not up, is that fair 4 to say? 5 Correct. 6 MS. They are out, but a little bit 7 higher than waist high? 8 Correct. 9 MS. And did he put his hands out 10 like that before or after he turned around? 11 After he turned around. 12 MS. What were his hands doing? 13 That's the easier way around it. 14 He looked like he was having 15 an attitude, he looked like my 16 MS. How so? 17 What are you going to do. 18 MS. That expression or that motion 19 he as he turn around. 20 Correct. 21 MS. What was your vantage point, 22 was your vantage point on him when he turned around, 23 was he facing you? 24 At this time, yeah, when he 25 turned around, he was facing the officer, which Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 121 1 would have been facing this way. I was more in the 2 middle of the building and he was more at the 3 entrance of the parking lot. 4 MS. When he turned around to get a 5 View of Michael Brown's front. 6 Correct. Left side, partial 7 front like, you know, like the side View. 8 MS. Okay. As he was running away, 9 do you remember what he was doing with his hands? 10 Just running, I mean it was. 11 MS. You just demonstrated a 12 running. 13 Just running, yeah. 14 MS. And his arms are pumping back 15 and forth? 16 He pulled his pants up once, 17 I know that. 18 MS. Did his pants appear to be 19 falling to you? 20 Yes. 21 MS. How so, can you describe that? 22 He was half mast. 23 MS. Meaning what? 24 His rear end was hanging 25 out. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 122 MS. Okay. He pulled them up twice cause when he first got out of the car, when the altercation stopped at the vehicle before he took off running, he pulled them up as well. MS. Okay. Then he pulled them up again as he running away? And then he pulled them up again as he was running down the street and then he turned around and then after that he never pulled them up again. MS. You said his hands were in like a running position? Correct. MS. So then what happened? After he turned around, he was like that and then MS. When you say like that, that's the what you are going to do about it look? What are you going to do about it look. MR. When you do that, you've got your hand and fists and are leaning forward. He started with the attitude and then he immediately went down into like that FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 123 1 football with the fist. 2 MS. Okay. So what are you going to 3 do attitude his palms are open? 4 Correct. 5 MS. And then you said he shifted 6 into this like fist, like 7 Well, because at this time 8 the officer actually had the gun pointed right at 9 him. I mean, it was obvious that he was getting 10 ready to do something. 11 MS. Who was getting ready to? 12 The officer. I mean, when 13 the hand was on the gun, the hand was on the 14 trigger, he was ready to go. 15 MS. Okay. 16 And he was focused. He no 17 longer had that confused just got smacked look, I 18 mean, he was determined to, you know, not 19 MS. So when this is all happening, 20 you are watching it. So the officer is in one 21 position and Michael Brown, the big one, is in 22 another position. Where are you, who are you 23 looking as you are describing what Brown is doing 24 When Brown turned around 25 with the, what are you are going to do about it, or Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 124 1 whatever. And then I looked at the officer who had 2 his gun, and by this time he come to the back of the 3 SUVthere, when I turned back 4 to him he was already there. 5 And I looked back at the heavier set one, 6 and he had, by this time bent down in the football 7 position and had his fist made and he began to 8 charge at the officer. 9 Ms. Okay. 10 More of a head type first 11 thing. 12 MS. Can you describe anything about 13 the heavier set guy, what he looked like, what his 14 facial expression was? 15 At that time he just looked 16 like he was on something. 17 MS. What makes you say that? 18 The officer just started 19 shooting him and he didn't do anything. He didn't 2O flinch, he didn't wiggle anyway and he just didn't 21 stop, he just kept going. 22 MS. Okay. 23 And that is when I said to 24 the guy in the green shirt, I said, oh, my gosh, is 25 he ever go to F, you know, quit. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 125 1 MS. What did you say? 2 I said, is he ever going to 3 fucking stop. 4 MS. What did the man in the green 5 shirt say to you? 6 If he said anything, I don't 7 know. I mean, it was more of just talking his 8 direction. 9 MS. Okay. 10 I mean, he just kept going. 11 And then the gun stopped and he was still alive and 12 if he would have just laid down, and then there was 13 like 14 MS. What? 15 A lot of blood. 16 MS. Okay. So let's go back. The 17 guy starts charging at the officer and when did the 18 officer start firing the gun? 19 After he turned around and 20 started charging after him. 21 MS. Do you remember, did the 22 officer give any commands or say anything? 23 He did say something, but I 24 don't know what. 25 MS. How about the big guy, the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 126 1 heavy set guy? 2 The heavier guy sounded like 3 he was grunting. 4 MS. Okay. 5 Now, whether he was talking 6 and I wasn't understanding him, I don't know. To me 7 it sounded like grunts. 8 MS. Were there any pauses in the 9 shots? 10 Yes. 11 MS. What sorts of pauses? 12 I don't remember the 13 sequence, but I know that there was at least what 14 seemed like a lifetime, but it was probably just a 15 few seconds between up until the last two shots I 16 mean, the shots kind of went boom, boom, four almost 17 right in a row it seemed like, but then there was 18 just enough of a pause and it was just, he wouldn't 19 stop. 20 MS. What was he doing? 21 He was still going after 22 him, he was still charging, he was bent down more. 23 MS. And we're talking about the 24 heavy set guy? 25 Correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 127 MS. And what was the officer doing while the heavy set guy is charging at him? At that time he was, he was standing completely still and he was in focus mode. MS. At any point did the officer either come forward or come back? He actually came back it looked like, about two steps, there right before the last two shots. It looked like he went back a couple steps and then up one step and then it was just boom, boom. MS. Tell me about the last shot? That last shot, I didn't like the last shot. MS. Okay. What about it? Too much blood. And then he went down and he went down face first and I just wanted to leave, so I left. MS. Okay. Did you the guy go down right away after the last shot? After the last shot, it was like two shots, the first one he started to go down and the second shot he was down. MS. Do you see where either one of those shots hit? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorspen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 128 1 The final shot, you know, I 2 didn't actually see where it hit, I just seen all 3 the stuff that come out. 4 MS. Come out of where? 5 His head. 6 MS. Did you notice any other 7 injuries? 8 I'm not saying there wasn't, 9 I can honestly say 10 MS. Okay. 11 I didn't pay any attention 12 if there was. 13 MS. I understand you wanted to get 14 out of there, but you were at this point still 15 standing on the sidewalk, correct? 16 Correct. 17 MS. So what did you do, did you 18 turn to the guy in the green shirt and say anything? 19 No, I just left, but I was 20 stuck in that parking lot. 21 MS. Did you go right back to your 22 car. 23 No, I went directly back to 24 my car. Not the spots that were up against the 25 building, but the spots that were facing that way. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 129 1 MS. Okay. 2 I know you are probably 3 turned around. When you come down you have the 4 first building here, you miss that first parking lot 5 and you have that second entrance. When you pull in 6 to the right and I parked facing into the 7 neighborhood. 8 MS. Okay. Did you ever see that 9 other kid, again? 10 He went down towards the 11 street that QT is on. 12 MS. West Florissant. 13 Yeah, I don't know the 14 street name. 15 MS. The street that you came 16 from? 17 Correct. He took off his 18 shirt and he stripped down to a, my calls them 19 wife beaters. I don't know, the tank tops. 20 MS. Did you see him actually? 21 Yeah, he took that off right 22 away. 23 MS. When did he, I know you said he 24 ran away, when did he reappear, when did you see him 25 again? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 130 1 He reappeared real close to 2 that guy in the green as I was leaving the parking 3 lot because when I was in the parking lot, I backed 4 up this way with my rear end towards the heavier set 5 body and I started to go this way, and he was like 6 right there at that time, he had just reappeared. 7 MS. So how much time had passed 8 from the time of the final shot and to the time that 9 you saw this kid reappear? 10 15 seconds, 30 seconds. I 11 guess. I don't know. It is in 20, 30 feet for me 12 to get over to my car. 13 MS. Okay. Did you notice him 14 changing his shirt? 15 He had taken his shirt off 16 and he had drawn it over his left shoulder. 17 MS. You are positive it was him 18 or someone that looked like him? 19 No, I was positive. 20 MS. And then what you are saying. 21 Correct. 22 MS. At any point did you see any 23 other police officers around? 24 There were two officers that 25 arrived, but I won't want to swear to when they Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 131 arrived. I remember two showing up, I remember one having his gun drawn, but not firing his gun but I don't remember because I don't remember when they showed up. MS. What about the officer that fired the shot, after he fired that last shot, what did he do? He looked like he was going He didn't look good. to throw up. I mean, he just didn't look, um, I don't know. MS. Not how he looked, like what did he do, what were his actions? What was his actions? MS. He just fired the last shot and what did he do? I don't know, I was leaving. MS. He fired the last shot, you saw the big guy fall to the ground. Correct. MS. And then what do you remember about the officer? Nothing really. I mean, he just kind of, I mean, the shot went in and I left. I didn't focus on anything or anybody any more after that. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 132 MS. Okay. So you left, you went back to the OT and asked for directions, correct? But I had to go through the neighborhood. MS. When you asked for directions, what did you ask for directions to? To nearest highway, I wanted any highway. MS. Okay. And the guy told me to make a right here and just go till you get to 270. MS. And why didn't continue to go to your friend's. I just wanted to go home. I didn't want anything to do with anybody. MS. Okay. I get on 270 and actually went the wrong way and again, and then got off and went back the other way. MS. When you got home, what did you do? When I got home, what did I do. I locked myself in my house for like two weeks. MS. Why? Don't want to go outside. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 133 MS. Why? Just, that was just a lot of stuff. MS. Can you explain to us what you mean? There's just a lot of blood. MS. A lot on the roadway that day? Uh?huh. There was just, this was just a lot. MS. I know, I don't know whether I'm asking you a hard question or I'm asking a explain to us what question that should be obvious, you mean. You said you have kids, right? We have but I only have that still live in my home. MS. Okay. So when you say you locked yourself in your house for two weeks, did you literally not go out for two weeks? No, I didn't leave my complex for two weeks. I didn't have any communication with anybody or go out. I took my kids to and from school and took them to their activities right there in MS. Did anybody in your family or anybody that you know that you talked to anyone FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 134 about what you saw? I talked to my ex?husband, but he swears up and down he doesn't remember the So I don't know. conversation. But my ex?husband is heavily medicated, so I can fully understand him not. MS. Heavily medicated with what? He's and he's on like three or four different medications. MS. Okay. When did you tell him what happened? Almost immediately after because I gave him step by step instructions on how to get there and everything that happened. MS. What do you mean? I told him everything. And the first thing he said was, you know, better not tell nobody. MS. Why not? Because he doesn't want anybody to cause any problems for the MS. Why did you think your would have problems? By this time, I mean, this was because that happened Saturday, this would have FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 135 1 been Sunday, and by this time you already had death 2 threats on whoever did it, I guess, is what he says. 3 I don't know, we don't have cable. 4 MS. You don't have cable, but do 5 you have the internet? 6 Yes. 7 MS. Do you look at the news at all? 8 I did for about the first 9 week and then it drove me nuts and that's all there 10 is. 11 MS. Did you consider reporting what 12 you saw to either St. Louis County or the FBI, it 13 took you a while to come forward? 14 It's been a long time. I 15 didn't consider it, not really at first. 16 MS. Why? 17 Because I didn't want 18 anything to do with it. In my opinion, and this is 19 just my opinion, I felt like the officer does his 20 job and it just kept going onwas like. 22 MS. Yeah, well, I guess this is my 23 question. You said you were (inaudible) you know 24 where the attention was? 25 That is where I learned the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 136 1 name and which one was which. 2 MS. So not only was there a lot of 3 attention nationally and all of that, there was 4 actually riots going on and not far away from where 5 you live, right? 6 Yeah, I I knew, I heard 7 about them. 8 MS. My next question is right when 9 you came in earlier, you know, from your dad to come 10 in and do the right thing and that's why -- 11 There is a difference. 12 MS. All right. So explain what's right and 15 that's what ultimately made me come in. But at the 16 time I just, I mean, at the time I just didn't want 17 to be in the middle of it. I still don't want to be 18 in the middle of it. 19 MS. I don't think nobody ever does 20 no matter what the investigation, right, whether it 21 gets media attention or not. But so so giving 22 what you're saying where your dad, you know, tells 23 you and all of that and doing the right thing, but 24 you're saying it never even dawned on you to come in 25 and report it? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxtnusoom Page 137 I didn't say it didn't dawn on me, I mean, yeah, because it's, you don't get into the middle of an officer and his job. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? MS. I understand what you are saying, but yet That's what finally broke me was the fact that it just kept going and going and going. Every time you logged onto Facebook or any of the news websites, that's all there was. Nothing existed but Ferguson. MS. Okay. What prompted you to call St. Louis, that's what you did, right, you called St. Louis County too, right? Correct. MS. So what prompted you to call them? I actually called a few times before that and then I guess I made a comment that went too far. MS. What sort of comment? I have no idea. I called Clayton and made the comments, you know, about the situation. MS. Like what, like what sorts of FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 138 comments? You don't have to tell me like word for word. Just that the officer had done his job and that, you know, he had been hit. I don't know word for word, because this is back in August. MS. So you called Clayton, you called Clayton where? From my cell phone. MS. Okay. Did you call the police department? Clayton nonemergency police department. MS. Okay. You did this how soon after the shooting? Probably within the first day or two, well, Tuesday, so one, two, I believe the first three or four days. MS. This is why I'm confused. Because first you are saying you didn't really consider reporting it, but yet you were calling information out and then commenting. So tell me what's going on I did But when I commented, not give them my name. I did not want anything to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 139 1 do with it, it is a different type of violence, it 2 is a different type of people. 3 MS. What do you mean? 4 The situation is scarry. 5 MS. We are not judging you at all, 6 we just need to know. 7 It is not the environment 8 that I grew up in. 9 MS. What do you mean by that? 10 It is just not the 11 environment I grew up in. I grew up, you know, from 12 the day I got at five. I grew up right 13 there by and that's where 14 I spent my whole childhood, 15 It was just different, you know. 16 I remember the day I got stopped for 17 jaywalking when I was 13 and the officer threatened 18 to turn me over my knee and take a belt to my rear 19 end, and that was just the way times were back then. 20 And we didn't dare tell them no, it was yes, sir, or 21 we caught it, you knowtrouble outside the house, we got in trouble inside 23 the house for disrespecting our elders or something 24 else. 25 So to me up there it is just not Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 140 1 MS. You don't think there is any 2 repercussions for their actions, for anyone's 3 actions. 4 What do you mean? 5 MS. Well, you said an officer 6 stopped you for jaywalking and if you did something 7 wrong, you respected it. But if you got in trouble 8 there, you are getting in trouble at home. 9 Right. 10 MS. And you're saying that's 11 different because people in North County don't have 12 responsibilities for their actions? 13 It is not so much North 14 County as it is the times. 15 MS. For anyone? 16 The situation that I had 17 witnessed is not the same as what it was, is not the 18 environment that I live in. 19 MS. So you didn't want to tell us 20 21 I didn't want anything to do 22 with it, I still don't. I know it doesn't make any 23 sense. I want to tell you because it is the right 24 thing to do. I don't because I don't want to get in 25 the middle of it. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 141 1 MS. And you're not alone, that's a 2 common feeling, like I said, for anybody that ever 3 witness's something. You have to spend the time 4 talking to police officers as well as prosecutors. 5 You guys are nice, but you 6 make me nervous. 7 MS. I'm glad we are nice. Why do 8 we make your nervous? 9 Police make me nervous, and 10 you are higher than the police, that makes me a 11 little extra nervous. 12 MS. We are trying to find out what 13 your motivation might be. As prosecutors, 14 especially, we have to try to figure out what kind 15 of case we have, if we can put a case together. 16 When we speak to witnesses, everybody has a reason 17 why they say something whether they're telling the 18 truth or they have other motivation behind it. 19 So when we have somebody who is telling us 20 what you are, takes you five weeks to come forward, 21 we just want to understand what was going through 22 yon in those five weeks. That means you ultimately 23 say I am going to tell you who I am. 24 Honestly, this may sound 25 cornypraying. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 142 MS. Okay. Tell us about that. That's different from what you are saying now to us, I didn't think about it, if you were praying about it, you were thinking about itpraying, especially at night. And I had been staying up till 3, 4, or 5 in the morning. And then I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning. MS. What would you dream about, what was your issue? Just going over what I had seen step by step every night and just asking, you know, I did go in and tell them this or I could go in and tell them that, and not really have to get involved. And then the next day I would pray and I would go like, I can't do that. Cause if I go in there and tell them what I seen, you're going to want to know everything. MS. So what were you concerned about telling us? Just, you know, I don't want to tell you any of it. MS. Okay. I mean, it was just praying FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 143 do I tell them that I seen it, or did a friend see 2 it, or I don't know, I kept going back and forth. 3 But when I pray, I'm not one of these, my ex?husband 4 is Catholic. I'm not one of those, you know, the 5 rosary and the cross and the holy water. You knownight and stare at the ceiling and 7 just talk. 8 MS. Okay. What ultimately made you 9 decide it was actually time to come forward? 10 Just seeing my dad. Not ll seeing him physically, I mean, he's deceased. 12 MS. Okay. 13 Just remembering that he, 14 you know, you do what, you do respect. That's it, 15 end of the line. You can screw up in life, we're 16 human, but you are to respect the law, you respect 17 your elders, you were always to speak the truth and 18 if you know something, then you are to come forward. 19 And it is not tattling, it's, you know. 20 Did you say at the beginning 2l you talked to after this? 22 Correct. 23 What did you tell her? 24 I told her I got lost up in 25 the Ferguson area and that's all I said. She never Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 144 really asked and we agreed that we would get back together, but we never have, but she Does she know at all about this, about the shooting? I didn't tell anybody except for my ex?husband. Why did you tell him? I had already told my ex?husband and he told me not to tell anybody and then I never told anybody after that. I mean, I live right next door to several county officers and I never told them either so. And she went to high school with you? Not the earlier Correct. grades, it is whenever, I think they call them whenever they bring, you have no idea. So it would have been like 83, '84 when they started Okay. This is at Correct, that's where we met. is that FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?correct? in school? back year have back her number at home? also? email also after that? email about this? lost. in a few days. email, a year, younger. graduated when I was 17, in the first grade, Page 145 Correct. Was she the same year as you Yes, but I had been held so technically she would have been a The way my birthday fell, I should but because I was held I became 18. Okay. You mention you have Correct. You have her email address At home, yes. You said you sent her an Yes. Did you say anything in the I emailed her the day I got I got lost and I will get in touch with her Do you still have that do you know? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 146 1 Sure, I mean, somebody could 2 get it off of my computer. 3 Just like go into your sent 4 items or whatever? 5 No, everything is gone as 6 far as that goes. 7 Why is that? 8 I mean deleted. 9 Okay. 10 I don't do the fancy stuff 11 like wipe hard drives or anything. 12 It might still be on there 13 somewhere? 14 Right. 15 You think after we leave 16 here today, we're probably going to take a break 17 here and talk a little bit before we finish up, but 18 after we leave here today, do you think you could 19 get us her email address and phone number? 20 Uh?huh, yes. 21 Okay. You guys want to take 22 a break? 23 Give us a minute. We are going 24 to leave the recording on, if that's okay, I am 25 going to check. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 147 That way we don't have to 2 start it over and all that. 3 Okay. 4 (Break in the interview.) 5 MS. ALIZADEH: At this point they take a 6 break for a few minutes. It is l2zO6. said 7 your lunch was supposed to be here at noon. She's 8 not here, so I think she might have gone to go get 9 it. Do you want to fast forward past the break and lO keep listening until she gets here or you want to go ll to the bathroom and kind of 12 How much time is left? 13 MS. WHIRLEY: We got through 55 minutes. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: About another 40 minutes. 15 MS. WHIRLEY: Do you know where to pick up 16 at? 17 (Continue recorded interview of 18 19 When I get nervous I have a 20 tendency of cracking my knuckles, so I apologize in 2l advance. You are going to hear a lot of that later 22 on. 23 So we just have some more 24 questions to just help us understand some stuff. 25 Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 148 So can you describe again how you left the complex after the shooting? Yeah. When I left, I went first, second entrance, I went from here and went over this way. I don't know, I'd have to look at a map because I don't remember, you know, zigzag because I popped out in the third parking lot is how I popped out. You said something about a circle that you went around? Right, well, I went to the right and then I know I went to the left, and then I went down a bunch of different streets and I ended up on the street that went like this. Okay, a circle. But you can drive around it and if I remember correctly, it was a parking lot, like you can park, but you drive around it. And then there's some buildings right here and I turned that way and then I made a left and that street dropped me off on the side of QT. Here is the problem that we have. That's what I remember. You are saying you came into FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 149 1 the apartment complex from the direction that QT WAS 2 in, right? 3 Right. 4 And you pulled out of the 5 lot and then you saw all of this? 6 Well, I couldn't, I'm sorry, 7 whatthis that 9 we've talked about, right. You go back to your car 10 and then when you went to leave there, did you turn 11 the opposite way of the way you came in or did you 12 go back the way you came in? 13 I couldn't go the way I came 14 in. 15 Why is that? 16 It was blocked. 17 From the police incident, 18 the shooting incident? 19 Right. Here is the building 20 and the entrance and another, you know, you had the 21 parking lot here and here, or whatever, and building 22 right here. And the officer's car was here and the 23 heavier set Brown was like here, there was no 24 getting in and out of this parking lot. 25 Okay. So where you were in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 150 the parking lot was past where the body was and where the police car was, so you had to go the opposite direction of the way you came in? Right, I had to go out, I popped out over here in this third parking lot. Uh?huh. Or whatever.. Okay. Well, you couldn't go in or out. You couldn't go back the way that you came into the apartment complex; is that right? I couldn't go back to the street QT was on, no. Okay, that's what I'm asking. So you couldn't go back the way that you came. So you went the opposite direction I went into the You went further into the complex? Correct. And then back there you were able to find a way out onto the street where QT is. Right, correct. And that was around a circle drive? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 151 I remember the circle drive. I don't know all the different streets I took. Because I zigzagged through there for about 15 or 20 minutes going up and down streets. I remember a couple that dead end into parking lots and you go down it and just dead end into a building, and then I would turn around and go back. You never came back there, I'm sorry. you said dead end MS. I'm sorry, into a building, what kind of building? Apartment building. If you go down and you make MS. How many story apartment? I don't even know. I just turned around. MS. It was at least two or three stories? I just turned around. I went down to that stop and I made a left and then I know I made the first left and that's where I couldn't go. Because I had to turn around and I went back and I went, I don't know where I went. MS. Was it all Canfield Apartments, they all look pretty similar? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 152 At that point, yeah, they all look the same to me. I don't know, I just wanted out of there. But I didn't go back to the street that QT is on the same way I went. I ended up way over here. MS. I just want to explain to you a little bit, you understand that part of what we do here is we have to evaluate, you know, basically every statement a witness gives us, correct? Correct. MS. So part of us doing that is just why we are going through that with you is just saying, okay, you were here and turned around and we know you were here. Because sometimes people will say how does she know what happened she actually was never there, she doesn't live in the area. What we are trying to in fact, were establish right now is that you, there, okay? Okay. MS. That's just why we are asking. Okay. I can't give you step by step instructions. MS. That's not what we are FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 153 asking. I just know for a fact that it wasn't the same way I came in. Our job as prosecutors, you know, we're trying to decide, you know, we're among the people who would decide whether this case is charged or whether it is not or whether it would go to trial or not, okay? Okay. So we have to evaluate witness as we sit here. She's making me nervous like I told her the wrong way. Oh, no. I only know I went that way. We're not worried about the details when you turn left or right whatever. Okay. There are a few things that do concern us some, okay, and just to be upfront with you. Okay. We want to let you know that basically what you are telling us is that you went further down into the apartment complex and you were FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 154 able to get out that way without going back the way you came? Correct. There is no way out that way, that's the thing. We've got investigators who have been up there plenty and know all of those streets and Yeah, there is because when you go around that thing, there is buildings and buildings and you go right through that parking lot. Uh?huh. And it pops out on a street that goes along the QT. MS. Right now, here is kind of a map of the area. I think that's the circle you are talking about, here is Canfield Drive, here is the way you can't get, there is a blockade here and there is a blockade there. The only way to get out once you go down this street is to go all the way down here. And it has been that way a long time, long before August 9th and it is that way today. You cannot get out through that circle. I came out Okay. Well, right there because QT is right there. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 155 MS. Right, correct, but you cannot get there from these two streets, it is impossible. And there is around the corner I went somewhere because MS. The street, the QT goes here and you cannot get to those streets. There are blockades, because we've had investigators try to get out on Canfield and you just can't. I don't know, I know for a fact I popped out on the side of QT. MS. Okay. I can't change that because that's where I popped out at. How I got there, I don't know, but that is how I came out. MS. You have a tremendous level of detail in some respects, but then very little detail in very simple things that I'm not quite understanding. I don't know the area. I apologize if I'm screwing it up, I just remember I came out alongside QT. MS. Right. I know I didn't go the same way that I did. Did I zigzag and end up how I got FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 156 there, I really don't know. That's just an example, I mean, there are a few other things. I could go back up there, not that I want to, but I could. Let me ask you this, we talked about your computer and your emails earlier. You think after you leave here you can get us email address and phone number? Yes, sir. Would she tell us that you were coming to see her that day? Um, I don't know what she would tell you, but she definitely tell you that I had, we were going to, oh, yeah, okay. Did she know to expect you that day if we asked her to come in and we said to her, were you expecting your friend to come visit you on August 9th? I don't know. What would she say? She knows I was on my way. What were the two of you going to do that day? She has a the same FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 157 age as my and we really want the two kids to meet, but I wanted to get to see her, I haven't seen her since 1988. Why do you hesitate about what she'd answer, what would you expect to say? Were you expecting? I don't know if she'll remember if she was actually, because it was nothing, we had her address, I told her I was going to try to stop by. You know, did she really expect me at a given time on that day? I don't know. But she will be able to tell you that she knew that I was headed that way that day after the fact, does that make sense? She knew you were on your way? I don't know what she knows. So you didn't make a plan It wasn't an actual, I will be here at 2:00 I will be here at 1:00 p.m. Had you emailed her beforehand to say I might stop by? Yes. So that email should be on your computer too? Yes, ma'am. Would you give us permission to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 158 look on your computer? Yes. What if we looked at your search history, were you doing a lot of reading about the case and looking at articles about it? I was for about a week or whatever trying to find out as much information as I could as far as, you know, where was it going. What about like in the last few days or in the week or so? It would have been just this past week. Did you read about it in just this past week? As far as like what, are you asking if I what? Did you do internet searches about the Ferguson shooting, about Dorian Johnson, about Michael Brown? I did maybe one or two searches about Dorian Johnson, that's the skinnier one. Uh?huh. (Stopping the audio recording.) MS. ALIZADEH: This is Kathi Alizadeh. It FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 159 is 12:18 on October 23rd. We are going to go ahead and break for lunch because your lunch is here. We still have a good 20 some minutes maybe to finish this statement. So rather than let you get hungry, we are going to feed you. And go ahead enjoy your lunch and let us know when you are ready to resume and we will finish the playing of the statement and then we'll have testify, all right. (Lunch recess taken) MS. WHIRLEY: We're resuming at approximately 1:18 p.m. October 23rd, 2014. We're resuming the statement of . We stopped at 11237. And then it kind of skipped a little bit. I'm at 11241. I'm going to try to get back a couple seconds and see if that will be easy. Sometimes not too easy. It is 11229 is as close as I can get. (Resuming of the playing of the audio recording of after lunch recess.) I believe maybe one or two searches about Dorian Johnson, that's the skinnier one. And then when you do a search for any of that, the easiest way to do is just type in Mike Brown because everything comes up then. MS. You think you have done it in FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 160 the last few days? Yes. MS. You did some searching before you talked to the County detectives? Um, yeah, yes, I'm sorry. MS. Do you remember a specific articles that you read? No, I don't do well reading and this is why I told, that's why I was held back and that's why I told the officer that I didn't think I was the best witness. MS. All right. Can I ask you something about that? Because of the reading. MS. What do you mean about the reading, why you wouldn't be the best witness? Reading is not the easiest thing. MS. Okay. I mean, it's, it does not. And then when I start to read the words get jumbled and I get bored. MS. Okay. I don't know if that's or what, but I become frustrated with it and I just FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 161 won't read it. I'll skip and I'll get hit and miss stuff, and then I will just say forget it and I'll it out. MS. What about, do you take any sort of like, is there any reason that medication would affect your ability to remember things or recall things or receive things? I went to through the MS. Okay. You said somebody was born in MS. You said It was a head?on collision. MS. Did you have a traumatic injury from that? MS. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 162 I had and then the short term memory still is affected, and then the word thought process, like what's in my brain doesn't come out of my mouth properly. MS. Can you tell me about the short term memory, what kinds of stuff do you forget? I get lost really easy. MS. Okay. For a while it was really bad. Like I would go for a walk, I grew up in at the time of the accident. And I took a two block walk to and got lost and didn't know how to get home. MS. How does that affect your memory on a day?to?day basis? On a day?to?day basis, I will never remember your name, numbers are ridiculous. I will never remember numbers. Unless I deal with something day?to?day or it's a traumatic experience, 99 percent of the time I will forget. MS. Okay. And so is it possible FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 163 that there were things you forgot from this that you want to refresh your memory by looking at things to make sure that your memory stayed intact for that? You want me to look at things? MS. No, I want to know was your memory, does your memory problems affect My memory was affected by where I was standing because I remember standing in front of a building, with the parking lot and a parking lot and a fire hydrant across the street. But I kept, I remember being on the officer's driver's side. But I could not remember, you know, which parking lot or which way I went to get back to QT. MS. Do you take medication? Not any more. I used to have to take MS. Do you take any sort of medication now that would affect your ability to remember things or No, no, I'm not on any medication, no. MS. Okay. One of the questions I have was the guy that you spoke to that you were FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 164 going to ask directions for, what did you say he was wearing? Heavy set, green shirt with braids. MS. Okay. So you know before had mentioned there were things we were having trouble kind of putting the pieces together and in your previous statement when you spoke to the guy you described this guy as wearing a, the same color wife beater shirt. That's what Dorian Johnson had on. MS. Okay. You also said that the guy that you were talking to was wearing that wife beater shirt. Okay. I don't, I know he had a green shirt and he was heavy set. MS. Okay. I might have talked to somebody else. The searches online that you may have seen, does this look familiar to you at all? Would you have seen that if you were searching, does that look familiar to you? Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 nnvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 mansionPage 165 Okay. Because I was trying to figure out if that was the gold thing that I had seen. Okay. That's what I asked you before, right, that's what I was wondering if you used if you looked or used the article. I'm sorry. MS. Did you look online to remember things? Yes, yes, ma'am because I remember the gold thing and the officer's car. I remember it coming off, a gold thing coming off Dorian's right wrist and, yeah, I remember looking at this. Okay. So what did you search to get to that article? I have no idea, Mike Brown, Mike Brown shooting or Mike Brown shooting in Ferguson. I think I searched the name Darren Wilson a couple of times because I was trying really hard to figure out how You know, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 166 1 but other 2 than that, I've never searched. 3 Did you say earlier 4 the friend that you were going to go by her house, 5 you 6 7 Is that when you 8 9 10 Okay, all right. 11 How did you guys get in contact 12 initially? 13 Facebook. 14 Okay. 15 She's on my friends list. 16 Okay. So you know what, 17 (inaudible) you give us to look at? 18 Facebook, oh, yes, ma'am. 19 Okay. That's just an article 20 we're showing you. 21 Can we take one more quick 22 break, I don't want to take up a lot of your time. 23 If we just pause for a minute, we'll be right back, 24 okay. 25 Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 167 (The interview takes a break at this point.) (Resuming of the audio interview of we're going to wrap things up here in just a minute, thanks for your time. Okay. you know what, we have been through your account, obviously, especially the news article we just showed you. You know what, here is the thing, I know there's so much been going in the community around here and people that just want to help in either way. And so I just need to ask, what you told us sounds a lot like what we have read in the newspaper. I haven't read any of that, I swear to God on a stack of Bibles, I looked at pictures to try to figure out which way I left the neighborhood and where I was parked. We know that you looked at that article that we just showed you because we just showed I looked at the picture, I swear, I swear I did not read any articles. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 168 We know that you read articles, and that's fine. Well, no, like this, I know, yes, I looked at that, I looked at that multiple times because I was trying to figure out if that's the gold thing that I seen. What we are trying to determine here, and you're not in any kind of trouble. I swear I have not That's fine. You are not in any kind of trouble. What we need to be able to do out of fairness the witnesses to this, okay, is just to be able to tell you is what you are telling us doesn't add up in with some ways, okay. Okay. And that's our concern. Listen, I know this has been all over the media, it's been all over the internet. And you talked before about how you did go back, and you know, it is human nature to want to go back and look at what's going on about this thing, okay. Right. Our concern is that maybe FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 169 you were very much sort of emersed in going through this on the internet, or whatever. And you're hear and you think you are trying to help, but maybe that you didn't see everything that you said that you saw, okay. And it is important for us to be able to determine who is telling us exactly what they say and who might have just seen some things and sort of put those together. I'm not 100 percent sure where I was parked. That's fine, we're not concerned about where you were parked. Refresh my memory on where I was parked and the MapQuest that you showed me, when you do get down and get close, I used that to help me figure out how I got out of there. Right, that's our concern is because on a map it looks like you could get out the way that you've described. I don't know how I got out. Yeah, I understand that. Those are details, okay. The point is are you 100 percent sure that you were up there that day. That's our big question, okay. If you're not sure FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 170 1 about that, we just need to know that, all right? 2 I was there that day, I just 3 don't remember how I got in and how I got out. I 4 don't remember, you know, I didn't hear words that 5 were said or anything like that. I remember, can I 6 look at this? 7 MS. Yeah, go ahead. 8 I remember looking at this 9 because I was trying to figure out if that was the 10 gold thing, what it was. And then I remember 11 watching that a half dozen times. 12 Did you comment on this 13 article, did you send any comments? 14 When this first happened, I 15 made comments for the first few weeks. Some were 16 really obnoxious, some were pretty vulgar and then I 17 realized that that is not the Christian thing to do. 18 You talking about actually 19 typing comments? 20 On Facebook. 21 On Facebook, okay. 22 What sort of comments did you 23 make? 24 I used the word a few 25 times, a half a dozen times. I used the word a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 171 few times. I was not, I was having a hard time dealing with what I did see and trying to remember things that I knew I seen, but I couldn't remember. That's what we're worried about. It is understandable you said you have memory problems, if you are trying to fill in the gaps by using the internet and reading things, is that possible. That is possible. I know what I seen though, I know that I seen the altercation in the car and I know I seen the shot that killed him. But a lot of what you told us today you've actually had to fill in the blanks because your memory problems by looking at the internet. As far as where I park and I how I got in and out, yes. And where I was standing, I remember being in front of that building and the only thing I remember is there was a fire hydrant right across the street, that I do remember. MS. Did you notice any other cars in the area, any other people standing around? When I left over here, when I was over here, there was a really nice yellow car, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 172 really nice. MS. It the parking lot or in the street? Half and half. It was like it had pulled in this way, because I couldn't get out that way at first. MS. Out of the third parking lot? Correct. MS. I'm talking about in the area, a lots of people were in that area and you said you saw lots of people around, but other than that guy you were standing right next to as you are watching this scene unfold, did you see cars on either side of the street because it is noon, there's going to be cars there that want to come through. There was that and then over here there was a white car, I think it was a two?door and then there was that really nice yellow car. I remember thinking it was really sweet. MS. Right behind the white car, two?door car. No, I remember the yellow car being in the third parking lot. Like it just had pulled in. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 173 1 MS. So the white two?door car, 2 was that really close to where? 3 There was another car there 4 too because that entrance was blocked, I could not 5 go out right away. 6 MS. The third entrance? 7 Correct. The white car with 8 the two door 9 this is something 10 else I want to ask you about. These pictures here, 11 neither of those are your car, right? 12 No, I remember being it like 13 white. 14 I'm talking about your car, 15 would that be your car? 16 Oh, my car. What kind of 17 car is that? 18 What kind of car is yours?. 19 2O That's like a small sort of 21 station wagon? 22 Yeah says it's a 23 station wagon. 24 Okay. But neither of these 25 is your car; is that right? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 174 No, sir. Doesn't look like it, I don't have tinted windows. Okay. And these are two different cars here. I thought you were asking me what it looked like the car that I seen. Yeah, no, I'm talking about your car. Neither of these pictures is your car; is that right? No, sir. My car that was I in was there. It is actually out there today, right? Yes. It's a It is a And that's the thing is, we, you know, were aware of your previous statement and the investigators went back and pulled pictures of any cars that would have been going down the street when all of this happened that day. There doesn't appear to be any car that matches the description of your car. That was another concern FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 175 1 that we had as it appears that this car was not 2 there at the time that this happened. 3 Okay, well, I was there. 4 How do you explain that? 5 I don't know how I got in 6 and out. I don't know what cameras took pictures. 7 Okay. Is it fair to say at 8 least that at least some of your account you have 9 had to go back and find that information on the 10 internet in order to fill in the blanks; is that 11 right? 12 Yes, sir, because like here 13 I was trying to figure out if that was the gold 14 thing I seen. This one I remember looking at 15 because I was trying to figure out which hand it was 16 because I knew it was the hand that had nothing on 17 it. 18 Okay. But some of the 19 details in your account you have had to go back on 20 the internet to get those details? 21 Not what I seen, just 22 details as far as the way cars were positioned, yes, 23 and where I was located and how the parking lot. 25 Some of the other things Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 176 1 that you talked about, the bracelet and those 2 things? 3 Well, the bracelet I 4 remember. That I know that he had on and I watched 5 that come off and I don't know if that's it or not, 6 but that's what I was looking for, yes. I was 7 trying to figure out where (inaudible) and so forth. 8 I couldn't remember if it was the right or the left. 9 I couldn't remember actually where it landed, but I 10 do remember it fell off his wrist cause I remember 11 him trying to pick it up. 12 I remember looking at this, I'm sorry, 13 because I was trying to figure out what parking lot 14 I was in. 15 Okay. You are talking about 16 a picture that's in the article that we showed you? 17 In this one? 18 Yeah. 19 Is that the same article? I 20 was more into the pictures. 21 Okay. 22 Because I was trying to 23 figure out, you know, because there's the first 24 building parking lot, parking lot and there is a way 25 to get over to this third parking lot. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 177 1 All right. 2 So I don't know, I mean, I 3 don't know how I got out. I mean, I could have 4 ended up going in circles and I could have ended up 5 going over here, I don't know. 6 MS. Just kind of go onto after it 7 happened, you were making some comments, you were 8 really angry. You said you used the word, what 9 kind of comments would you make when you used it? 10 Word for word? 11 MS. Uh?huh. 12 They need to kill the 13 fucking niggers. It is like an ape fest, and then, 14 it just, it is just not right. It is just not 15 right. So I put my, focused my energy into with a 16 couple of Wilson supporters and we made 17 and we 18 have been collecting donations and we have schools 19 making homemade Christmas cards. 20 You are doing what you can 21 to help Darren Wilson? 22 Right, I quit posting on 23 any, you know. 24 MS. Okay. But when you did post, 25 can you give me that user name you used? Did you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 178 just use your Yeah, I don't Twitter, I 2 3 don't know how. 4 MS. Okay. 5 I think I have Twittered 6 three times in my entire life. 7 MS. And is your name Yeah, my is 13 the bluehave no 16 idea what my banner is. 17 MS. You said EIN number, what is 18 that? 19 MS. Social Security account 20 number for a business. 21 Right, you can apply through 22 the IRS and make it nonprofit. If you are going to 23 buy and sell and do things, then you need something 24 called that? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 179 1 I don't need a they said 2 because we're not doing that, all we're doing is 3 straight up collecting donations for, like we have 4 is making homemade Christmas cards. 5 MS. Okay. 6 is 7 decorating homemade Christmas box. 8 MS. How many people are in this 9 organization that you formed? 10 Three. There is myselfcell phone, and then 12 another girl that keeps saying she wants to be in 13 it. I have a ton of emails with her, but her 14 husband won't let her. Her name is 15 MS. what? 16 I don't know. 17 MS. Do you have position in this 18 organization, there is two of youMS. Okay. 22 And the ETN number things is 23 in my name. 24 MS. What's the 25 name? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 180 The page? 2 MS. Yeah. 3 4 and then it is nonprofit, and we label that it is 5 nonprofit. 6 MS. You just started this after the 7 shooting? 8 Correct. 9 MS. How long after the shooting did 10 you start it? II I don't know when the 12 was created in August. I don't know when the page 13 itself was created. I believe the was created 14 in August, or whatever. And then it got changed to 15 16 MS. Okay. 17 Actually, only been doing 18 with that name for what, a few weeks now. 19 Basically, you are doing 20 what you can to kind of help Darren Wilson with all 2l of these efforts, is that fair? 22 I think a lot of the 23 is kind of selfish. It was more for 24 myself being, because I do support law enforcement 25 and I felt bad with what I had Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 181 1 I can't 2 In coming in here and 3 talking to us, are you trying to help Darren Wilson 4 by talking to us here today? 5 I don't know if that helps 6 him or not. 7 Okay. You mention before 8 that your husband, 9 is that right? 10 Uh?huh. 11 Have you had any kind of 12 similar issues at all? 13 I was diagnosed as 14 when I was 15. 15 Okay. 16 I'm not medicated for that. 17 That is one of the things that they say later on in 18 life they said 19 Which also interferes with my ability to 20 focus on reading and so forth. 21 But as I got older and worked my way 22 through therapy. 23 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 182 Okay. Listen, it was good to meet you today and thank you for your time. I'm sorry if I wasted No, you didn't I know what I seen, I know you don't believe me. As far as being out there, I know I probably searched too much to try to refresh my memory. It is not a matter of believing you, it is difficult when you say to us that you are posting things online that people might consider racist. It is racist and that's why I turned to the other thing. So you are posting racist things online and you are telling us, you know, and you are telling us, you know, your account and then there are videos that doesn't show your car. And then there is a map that shows you couldn't left the way you left from. I don't know how I left. But, obviously, we find out what people's motivations are when you say you posted things online that are racist and you come in here and tell us an account that supports Darren FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 183 1 Wilson. We're not saying 2 Well, it is not for Darren 3 Wilson, it is all first responders. Because we do 4 fire department, we do EMS, or whatever, and local 5 law enforcement. We do not focus, we do not post on 6 Darren Wilson. 7 You raised money for Darren 8 Wilson. 9 No, we're doing it for the 10 local law enforcement that have been dealing with 11 the riots, not Wilson himself. 12 All right. But as you said 13 in your first statement, I meanbest witness because of your memory problems and the 15 other issues that you have. 16 Right, oh, I know that. 17 Okay. 18 And in part why I didn't 19 come forward. 20 Okay. I know you said that you 21 think we don't believe you, but do you think overall 22 we treated you fairly here today? 23 Oh, I do yes, ma'am. I have 24 no problems with, you all make me nervous as heck. 25 Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 184 I have no problems with law enforcement, even the officer that was forced to arrest me when I grabbed the wrong checkbook. Okay. Did we force you to say anything you didn't want to say? No, ma'am. MS. Okay. I'm going to end the recording. The time 3:52 p.m. MS. WHIRLEY: So that ends the recording of It is approximately 1:43 p.m. October 23rd, 2014. Let me go get that witness. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: EXAMINATION BY MS. ALIZADEH: Could you please introduce yourself to the grand jurors? My name is And do you go by Yes. 10 IO How old are you, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 185 A And whereabouts do you live? A Did you grow up in St. Louis? A Since the age of five, yes. Okay. And I'm going to stand back here. That's because the microphone that's there is not going to amplify your voice. If I can't hear you, then I know they can't hear you. So make sure you keep your voice up loud enough all the way back here, okay? A Okay. Now, you know why you are here today, correct? A Correctbrief discussion, well, earlier today and just now before you came in, right? A Yes. And you had originally made a statement with St. Louis County Police Department detectives; is that right? A Yes. That was when, do you recall? A No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 186 1 If I said September 11th, does that sound 2 about right? 3 A I have no idea. 4 Okay. And then just yesterday you met 5 with some FBI agents and assistant U.S. attorney and 6 an attorney from the Department of Justice and you 7 talked to them a little over an hour and a half; is 8 that about right? 9 A Yes, that's correct. 10 Okay. Now, when you and I met prior to 11 your testimony, I told you how this was going to 12 work in here. That you are going to be under oath 13 and I'm going to ask you questions and Sheila may 14 ask you questions, Miss Whirley, the attorney there 15 you had already met, and then the grand jurors get 16 to ask you questions, okay? 17 A Okay. 18 Did I stress outside to you how important 19 it is that you tell the truth? 20 A Yes. 21 And did I tell you that if you lie under 22 oath, if you intentionally lie under oath to this 23 grand jury, did I tell you what the consequences 24 would be? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 this year, I told you that that's a crime and considered perjury? Yes. Do you intend to tell the truth to the grand jury today? Yes. All right. So, 8 out by telling the grand jurors back on August 9th Yes. And when we say 13 are all thinking I guess. It is not Oh, no. County? Yes. The Yes. All right. 22 about that day, that morning, did you have any 23 particular plan or was there something going on? I went to go and I wanted to meet up with 25 an old friend of mine from high school. why don't you start were you still at that time living in Was there anything special Page 187 I assume we FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 188 1 And what's the name of this friend? 2 A Her name is 3 And how long have you known all 4 through high school or just at the end of high 5 school? 6 A We met in our freshman year of high 7 school. 8 Were you friends in high school? 9 A Yes. 10 Did you maintain your friendship after 11 high school? 12 A Not really. We went our separate ways 13 until we reconnected 14 How long ago was it that you reconnected 15 with 16 A Well, I got my in 2010, 17 so it would have been shortly thereafter. 18 So you've been communicating with 19 for about four years? 20 A Here and there, not on a good friend type 21 basis, no. I mean, quick messages, 22 you know, she sent me some pictures of her daughter. 23 All right. And did tell you where 24 she lives? 25 A She lives in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 189 1 In is the City of St. Louis 2 County? 3 A It's in yes. 4 Okay. So what made you decide to Visit 5 on the 9th? 6 A We had talked about getting together and 7 we kept postponing it and I decided I was going to 8 go meet up with her because I wanted to see her and 9 spend time with her before we let our children meet. 10 She has a the same age as my 11 And what age is thatthat you needed to meet 14 up with her before you would let her meet 15 your I mean, they're old? 16 A I hadn't seen actually hadn't 17 face?to?face seen her since 18 And so was there some concern that maybe 19 you didn't want your to be socializing with 20 21 A No, I'm just cautious over where my kids 22 go and there are other friends that I have from high 23 school that have drug addiction problems and so 24 forth. I just make sure that before I let my kids 25 go anywhere, I go first. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 190 Did you think that had a drug addiction? A No, no, but it's just the way I am. I have to go and I have to see the house, I have to visit and make sure that it is where I want to leave my child for a play date or whatever. So did you ever consider inviting to come down to your house? I mean, your house, you would know your house is a safe environment, right? A The last time I had spoken, actually spoken to her, she did not have a vehicle. All right. So did you then have your with you on that Saturday when you were going to go visit that you and had arranged for this get?together on Saturday? A I had told her I was going to pop in on Saturday and she said that was fine. And was there any other detail about this, like you get there around noon or it would be in the afternoon or? A We were going to have lunch together. Were you, did you go someplace for lunch or have lunch at her place? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 was never A old? heard, no. name? lO IO !0 close since school and then we went, separate ways, chat there. correct? Page 191 Have lunch at her place, I guess, but it discussed. All right. Now, is married? NO. Does she have other children besides her Not that I know of, not that I've ever So what is her old Yes. And do you know where she goes to school? No. What does do? I have no idea. Is she employed? I have no idea. We haven't been that We were really close through high like I said, we went our other than a quick chat here and quit You've seen her I guess, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 192 A Correct. Does she post things about herself on her A Here and there and her So you have seen, does she say anything where she's employed, how you can fill out your bio on your A I have no idea. I've never looked at the about part of it. What about a telephone conversation, have you had a telephone conversation with A Just one, two. When did that happen? A One happened towards the end of July and then again August 10th. What was the reason for those conversations? A The first one was I was going to come up and just pop in, we could have lunch and I got lost as all get out and I didn't make it. So the one in July was in order to plan for this, was it a vague plan that you made on the phone conversation in July, or did you say on Saturday the 9th I may pop in? A I just said around on that weekend I was FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 193 going to try to pop in, would she be around. And she said, yes. Because that was a scheduled weekend for my kids to go with their dad. So driving from all the way up north, I mean, that's not right around the corner, obviously? A Right. Did you call her before you left to make sure it was still on or that she was going to be home? A No. What about, when you guys made this plan, did she give you directions on how to get to your house? A I Googled it to a point and then got basic directions. But I misunderstood the directions and I misunderstood where she lived, so I had it all wrong. Had you used Google Maps before? A I have. You know when you put in an address of where you're starting, an address of where you're stopping, of where you're going to, it gives you not only a step?by?step, turn?by?turn direction, but it always gives you a map that shows you where you are FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 194 1 going, right? 2 A Correct, but I had put in the wrong 3 address. 4 How is it, did you have the wrong address? 5 A Yes. 6 Did give you the wrong address? 7 A No, I wrote it down wrong. It is 8 something I do. 9 So do you recall what the address was that 10 you had written down? 11 A The one I had written down at home I think 12 was but I'm not 100 percent sure. 13 So you put that address in Google, did you 14 print out directions or get directions? 15 A I got directions. No, I did not print it 16 out. 17 Why not? 18 A Because I don't have a printer. 19 Now, we've already heard that said that 20 you have problems with your memory, did you write 21 down the directions? 22 A I wrote down basic directions, not the 23 entire length, no. 24 Now, we know that you didn't get to your 25 friend that day, correct? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 195 A Correct. And you didn't have a cell phone with you when you drove up there, right? A Correct. So how is it that you know that you have the wrong address for A How do I know I had the wrong one? Yeah, you just said that you put the address in but it was the wrong address. A Because I never found it. And when I got up there I was told that they didn't know what I was talking about or that address wasn't around that area. So you assume that meant you wrote it down wrong? A Correct. It's common for me. So did you have a cell phone at this point? A I had an inexpensive phone that I had given my old that was using. So you set out on your own by yourself? A Yes. Drove up to North County? A Yes. From your home FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 196 1 A Yes. 2 Did you tell anybody that you were going 3 up there like, you know, your other children, a 4 friend or neighbor, hey, I'm going to go up to visit 5 my friend in this afternoon? 6 A I don't know that I told them I was going 7 to I said I was going to visit a friend. 8 Who did you tell that to? 9 A Everybody, that lives upstairs and a 10 woman named that lives in the complex. 11 So weren't you at all concerned, well, let 12 me ask you this, are you familiar with North County? 13 A No. 14 Do you know the streets and the places up 15 in North County? 16 A I know basic directions, but no, not 17 really. 18 So were you at all concerned that you were 19 going up to North County and to a place that you 20 were really not familiar with to visit a woman you 21 haven't seen in, I don't know, since 22 A I know it sounds sillyall the time. 24 And so when you got up there, when is it 25 that you first realized that you didn't know where Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 197 you were going? A I don't remember the name of the street. I think it was Florissant Road, I had gotten off the highway and I had gone all the way down that street. So which highway did you get off of? A I guess it is still called 270 up there. I get on at and follow it up. Do you remember what exit you got off at? A No. The name of the street? A No. So when is it that you realized that you didn't know where you were, right when you got off the exit? A About a block after the exit I decided I better stop and ask for directions. So did you? A I went down a ways and asked for directions at QT. About how far did you go down West Florissant before you stopped at the QuikTrip? A I don't know because I went right a couple times and then popped back out onto that other road. So I don't know how far down it was. So you stopped at QuikTrip and you talked FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I,Page 198 to somebody that worked there? A I talked to a gentleman that was pumping gas. When you pull into the QT, when you make a left into the parking lot, the guy was just right there. So just some stranger that you approached and said, what did you ask him? A I asked him if he knew where, well, then I asked him if he knew where that address was, which I believe is but I'm not sure. And what was his response? A He asked to see the address. I showed it to him. He said, are you sure, he asked if I was sure that that was where I was trying to go. He said he hadn't heard of it. And I asked him, told him I had done a couple of turns and asked him which way 270 was. So after you left there, did you go back to 270? A No, instead of making a right out of the gas station I made a left. Was that an error? A Yes. So you asked this guy for directions and you decide to go back to 270, but right out of FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 199 1 QuikTrip you take a left? 2 A Yes, that's my short term memory problems, 3 yes. 4 So then where did you go after you turned 5 left off of, onto West Florissant from the QuikTrip? 6 A Another immediate left. 7 All right. Where did you go after that? 8 A That's when I ended up in there. 9 When you turn, when you pulled out of the 10 QuikTrip, did you pull directly onto West 11 Florissant? 12 A It is not that side street, I turned onto 13 the busy road. I guess that was West Florissant. I 14 don't know the street names. 15 All right. And then you found yourself, 16 you turn left and you were, where were you when you 17 turned left, why is it that you turn left? 18 A Because I had felt like I went the wrong 19 way. 20 Okay. So you were going to turn around? 21 A Yes. 22 So what street did you turn onto, was it 23 the street that led you into the complex? 24 A Yes. 25 So when you first turn onto that street, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 200 when you are on West Florissant when you turned onto that street, did you turn right or left? A Left. All right. And so when you then, as soon as you turn onto Canfield Drive off of West Florissant, is that where the apartments are? A No, I went down past a few streets first. Are there apartment buildings or businesses or restaurants or do you recall? A I don't remember. I just remember I went down and went past a couple of streets on, I believe it was the right?hand side. Why would you go past those streets, why wouldn't you turn around, you turned onto Canfield so that you could turn around and go back to 270, didn't you? A Yes. You didn't turn around when you had an opportunity to turn around? A I don't yes, correct. I don't make turns in the middle of the street and I don't pull into people's driveways. When I realized the apartments were there, originally, I thought I was just going to turn around in the parking lot and decided to ask for directions again. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 201 1 So the map that is right here to your 2 right is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25. Do you 3 recognize this map, the streets, the buildings, does 4 that look familiar? 5 A I recognize the buildings, yes. 6 Okay. Do you see this street that kind of 7 snakes across the whole map, you see that is 8 Canfield Drive? 9 A Correct. 10 To reference and orient you, West 11 Florissant is over here. (indicating) 12 A Okay. 13 And that's to the left side of the map and 14 back here is 15 A The complex. 16 Well, you are driving further east at that 17 point, okay? 18 A Right. 19 So is it this street that you came onto 20 into the complex? 21 A Yes. 22 Can you use that laser pointer and tell me 23 how far you got before you stopped your car? 24 A Before I stopped it? 25 Where did you go? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 202 A I parked right there. Right where that car is. (indicating) Okay. So you drove east on Canfield, did you turn right then on Caddiefield Road? A Yes. You put the laser pointer right here? (indicating) A Right, I pulled into that one. There was a lot of vehicles, there was vehicles there that didn't look like, you know, they were busy and the parking lot was full, so came down to this one. So you took the second right? A Correct. Once you were in the complex? A That's what I believe, yes. I was lost by then and that's where I believe I was, yes. All right. And so when you first pull into the complex, you know, I know that you said that you first saw a police vehicle and there was some boys? A Correct. Well, I had already gotten out of my car. All right. So when you pulled in here and turned right, I have to go like this, right turn onto Caddiefield, at that point you hadn't seen the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 203 police vehicle or the boys? A I don't know if the boys were there or not, I wasn't paying any attention. I was paying attention to just parking and I had not seen the officer. As you drove down this way, if there was a couple of guys walking in the middle of the street you would have noticed them, wouldn't you? A No. In the middle of the street? A People do that all the time everywhere. You just watch out for them, you don't hit them and you don't pay attention to who they are. So if there were people walking in the middle of the street, you wouldn't have paid attention to it? A I would have paid attention, you know, making sure I didn't hit them. I would not have paid attention to who they were. Do you remember if there people, boys walking in the middle of the street? A There were people walking in the middle of the street down here and then there was people walking in the middle of the street up here. I don't remember if there was some right there or not. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 204 1 Okay. The people that were walking in the 2 middle of street up here. (indicating) 3 A Yes, they were young. 4 What does that mean? 5 A They looked young, under 18. And I won't 6 ask an under 18?year?old for directions, I won't 7 roll up on a child. 8 Were they boys, girls, ten of them, two of 9 them? 10 A Just two boys. 11 Two boys? 12 A They were just walking. 13 Which direction? 14 A Towards that way. (indicating) 15 They were walking west? 16 A Correct. 17 Toward West Florissant? 18 A Yes. 19 Were they in the street or on the 20 sidewalk? 21 A They were in the middle of the street at 22 that time. 23 Okay. 24 A But when I came down around the corner 25 they stepped off to the side. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 205 Those two boys that you saw, were those the two boys that you later describe at the police vehicle? A I don't know. They looked young to me, I don't know. You don't think it was the same? A They looked like teenagers. I don't know, I canwasn't. I just remember there were two boys there at that time. So you drove, continue to drive and turn right onto Caddiefield Road, you said you saw some people walking in the street around this area, which would be somewhere between Coppercreek Court and Canfield Court? A Correct. Were they boys, girls, how old, how many? A Two or three. I don't remember, I didn't really pay much attention and they look like girls. All right. So what did you do after you turned onto Caddiefield Road, did you park in a parking spot or did you stop your vehicle? A I parked in the parking spot right there. Okay. Show me again? A In these parking lot spots. Okay. So right around here? (indicating) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 Page 206 A Yes. So somewhat on the southeast side of Caddiefield Road? A Correct. And then you say you got out of your car? A Correct, because there was a whole lot of people right there and I walked up to the oneyour car? A Main reason was to ask for directions and then I decided to have a cigarette, so I got out. At this point you know you're lost, you know you turned off of West Florissant and drove straight down Canfield Drive. A Correct. You are trying to find 270, right? A Correct. Why would you just not turn around here and then go back up to West Florissant? A My memory on my directions does not work like other people. Well, you knew your friend was expecting you? A Right. You were going to have lunch with her. You had no way to call her and say, hey, I'm going FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 207 to be late because I'm stopped, I'm lost, and I'm stopping to have a cigarette, but you just decided to get out of your car and stop, ask directions and have a cigarette? A I stop to ask for directions and I went ahead and lit a cigarette, yes. At that time on that day I did not smoke in my vehicle. Who did you ask for directions? A I asked a gentleman that was standing under the tree. I'm guessing you didn't know him, you haven't seen him before? A No, ma'am. Was it a black man, a white man, Hispanic? A African black man, African?American. Teenager, older than me? A I remember him being older. Okay. What did you ask him? A I asked him if he knew how to get to the nearest highway. I figure if I can get to any highway, I'd be fine. What did he tell you? A He started to give me directions, but he was looking in the direction of that way as he was And that is when talking, so I did not hear him. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 208 I all of that other stuff 2 Have you lit your cigarette at this point? 3 A Yes, I have. 4 So you're standing there, he's giving you 5 directions, but he's not talking directly at you so 6 you can't hear what he's saying? 7 A Right, right, I could not get step?by?step 8 instructions when he was looking the other way. 9 Did you have a piece of paper and 10 something to write with? ll A No. 12 You were just going to try to remember 13 what he was going to tell you knowing that you have 14 a problem with directions and short term memory? 15 A Yes. 16 So what happened then when you were 17 standing there talking to this man? 18 A That's when the officer drove up, which 19 I'm not 100 percent sure, I want to say he was like 20 approximately right there when I seen him and he was 2l talking to the two boys. His mouth was moving and I 22 don't know what he said. Then he started to pull 23 forward and when he was about here, he started to 24 back up. 25 So you're standing about somewhere in this Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 209 area under a tree? A Correct, like right there. (indicating) Right at 2960; is that right? A Okay, yes. Does that say 2960, hang on? A I can't Hold, please, yes 2960. A Okay. So it was right in front of here? A Correct. And so where did the police officer come from? A From this way. (indicating) And what was he driving? A It is a big vehicle. I didn't know what kind of vehicle it was at the time. It is a marked police car. Is it a sedan, is it a van, is it a pickup truck? A I know now it is an SUV, at the time to me it was just a bigger vehicle. Okay. So when he drove up, where does he stop the vehicle? A I don't remember the first time. The first time he just drove up and like around this FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 2lO area and said something to the boys and then drove 2 on. 3 So where were these boys he stopped and 4 talked to? 5 A In the middle of the street. 6 Where did they come from? 7 A I was talking to that other guy, I have no 8 idea. 9 It wasn't these kids? 10 A It wasn't those because I believed that ll they were female. 12 It probably wasn't these guys since these 13 guys, they were walking that direction? 14 A I don't know. 15 So you don't know where those boys came 16 from? 17 A No, ma'am. 18 So when the officer pulled up on them, 19 were they on the side of his vehicle? 20 A I don't remember the first time, the 2l second time they were, they were on the driver's 22 side when he backed up. I didn't pay much attention 23 to anything until the second time around. 24 What do you mean the second time around? 25 A When the officer put the car in reverse. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 211 1 So the officer stopped, talked to the 2 boys. 3 A He said something, I don't know what he 4 said. 5 Did the boys look like they were talking 6 too or did they just keep walking? 7 A It wasn't paying any attention to them. 8 He rolled up on them, he slowed down or stopped, I 9 don't know. 10 And then what happened? 11 A His mouth moved and then he started to 12 pull forward and didn't go forward very far and then 13 he put it in reverse and came back. 14 All right. When he put it in reverse and 15 came back, did he do that quickly, slowly, 16 leisurely, did he spin his tires, did you hear the 17 screech of tires when he backed up? 18 A I don't remember. I just know I was 19 talking to that guy. I looked, the officer was 20 talking to him. I looked back to the guy and then 21 something caught my attention and I looked back over 22 there and he was coming in reverse. 23 So when he reversed, were the boys still 24 in the street? 25 A When I looked over there, when he came in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 212 reverse, it was like his car was like that and they were at his driver's side. So did they stop or were they still walking when he backed up on them? A When I looked back over there they were stopped. And how was the officer's car parked, I mean not parked, I know it wasn't parked. How was it when it came to stop? A Like not straight on the street, like he was backing into on the curb. So whereabout was the vehicle when it came to a stop? A I'm not 100 percent sure, but around this area right here. (indicating) So if the vehicle had been traveling that direction. A Correct. When it came to a stop. A It was pointed I want you to use this. Come up here and show me, I know this is way bigger than the vehicle, but if the vehicle is traveling like this when it came to a stop, how was it? A Just like that. Like it was backing up to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 213 the curb with the head of the car going that way. Was the front of the car still in the correct lane, the right side lane? A I don't remember, I believe so. What about the rear of the vehicle, was it in the other lane at this point? A I don't remember. I know it was like he was backing up to the curb area. So do you recall what, tell the jurors what happened then, after he backed up and the boys were at the side of the car? A He said something, I don't know what he said and then the next thing I remember the heavier set one was in the window from his naval up. His naval being his belly button? A His belly button. So his upper body was inside the police vehicle? A Correct. Do you see inside the police vehicle? A No. Before he, before the bigger guy put his upper body in the police vehicle, could you see inside the police vehicle? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 214 A Before? 2 Yes. 3 A Just the side View of the back, side View 4 of the officerwoman? 6 A It was a male. 7 White or black or Hispanic or something 8 else? 9 A White. 10 Uniform? 11 A Yes. 12 What color? 13 A Blue. 14 Did he have a tie on his uniform? 15 A I don't remember. 16 How about long sleeves or short sleeves? 17 A Don't remember. All I seen were the 18 shoulders. 19 Well, at some point you see him get out of 20 the car, right? 21 A Yes. I don't, I didn't look into the 22 detail of what they were wearing. 23 How about the officer, was he wearing a 24 hat, like his policeman's hat or a baseball cap? 25 A No. The other guy was wearing a baseball Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 215 1 cap. 2 Which other guy? 3 A The heavier set African?American. 4 What color was it? 5 A Red. 6 What color were his shorts? 7 A Khaki. 8 How about his shirt? 9 A I don't remember, I think it was white, 10 but I'm not 100 percent sure. 11 How about the officer, what color were 12 did he have shorts or long pants on? 13 A The officer? I don't know, I wasn't 14 focusing on him, I was focusing on the heavier set 15 African?American because of what he was doing. 16 How about were his pants darker than his 17 shirt, same color? 18 A Who? 19 Lighter than his shirt? 20 A I don't remember. 21 So after you saw him back up, you saw the 22 bigger guy put his upper body inside the vehicle, 23 what did you see happening then? 24 A I just seen his right hand moving up and 25 down. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 216 Whose right hand? The larger, the African?American, larger one. Could you tell what it was doing? A No. What about the other boy, what was he wearing, what did he look like? A At that time he had a black T?shirt on and he had, his hair was braided. Braided? A I believe, I mean. What about, what was he wearing? A I don't know what color shorts he had on. But you remember shorts? A No, I mean, I don't remember from the waist down, I don't remember the bottoms, I only remember the dark shirt. So what was the smaller kid doing? A When he first went in, when the officer tried to open the door, the heavier set one pushed it shut with his hand open. The second time I don't know if he punched it with his hands or with his stomach. And then by the time he punched it shut the second time, the skinnier one punched the rear view mirror or the mirror that's on the side of his FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 217 car with his wrist. So the skinnier one was up by that side mirror, are you talking about the side mirror? A Yes, right outside the door. Did it break the mirror? A Something fell off his wrist and I believe that the mirror broke, yes, but I can't remember now at this point 100 percent sure. Did you see glass on the ground? A No, I seen something gold fall off his wrist. Off of the skinnier guy's wrist? A Correct. And you remember it being gold? A Correct. And then what happened then? A He went to bend down to pick it up and that's when I heard the gunshot. The skinnier guy went to pick it up? A He went to pick up whatever fell. The gold thing? A Yes. Did he pick it up? A No, I don't think so. I don't remember if he did or not. I just remember he went down too as FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 218 1 he's picking it up. 2 So were there other cars at this point 3 behind the officer's car or in front of the 4 officer's car, you remember seeing other cars? 5 A I only remember seeing, really focusing on 6 two other cars. There were other cars there yes, 7 there were other people there yes, but the two that 8 caught my attention was a white two?door that was 9 catty?corner that was across like approximately 10 right there, in this stretch. And then there was 11 a at that time that was the only car I seen. And 12 then after it was all over I seen a really nice 13 yellow car, like a sports car. 14 That yellow car had nothing to do with 15 what's going on? 16 A No, those are the only two vehicles that 17 really, and the white one caught my attention 18 because it was in my eyesight the other one was 19 because of the type of car it was. 20 What about any vehicles in front of the 21 police officer's car, did you see a blue truck? 22 A (Shakes head.) 23 Minivan? 24 A (Shakes head.) 25 Don't remember? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 219 1 A Don't remember. 2 So what happened then if you get to the 3 point where after the gunshot went off, you said you 4 heard a gunshot? 5 A Correct. 6 What happens then? 7 A The skinnier one took off running in that 8 direction. 9 Toward West Florissant? 10 A Yes. And then the other one, he stood up 11 and pulled his shorts up and ran this way. 12 (indicating) 13 So he ran right past you? 14 A Correct. 15 Was he running in the middle of the 16 street, on the sidewalk, on the grass? 17 A He wasn't in the sidewalk or the grass, 18 but he wasn't really in the middle of street. He 19 was like coming, you know, he ended up in the middle 20 of the street, but he started over here and went 21 this way. (indicating) 22 When you first heard that gunshot ring 23 out, did you recognize it as a gunshot? 24 A No, I had never heard a gun before other 25 than on TV. Common sense told me it was. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 220 So after you saw the bigger guy running 2 away from the police vehicle, what did the officer had his left 5 hand on his face and the gun in his right hand and 6 when he stood up, he was wobbling from his left foot 7 to his right foot. He said something, I don't know 8 what he said. All I remember hearing is the word 9 shoot. I didn't hear any other words before that. 10 And he had his hand on his gun and he was pointing ll it right at the larger of the African?Americans. 12 And after he said the word shoot, that's when the 13 young man turned around. 14 The young man, the bigger guy? 15 A Yes. 16 And when he turned around, did he have his 17 hands up? 18 A When he first turned around, he turned 19 around with his hands swinging and they were more 20 down like this with his palms open in the form of an 2l attitude that you get from a teenager. Like, you 22 know, what are you going to do about it. 23 (indicating) 24 Okay. When he swung around then he, point 25 with the laser pointer where he was when he turned Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 owe-I?Page 221 around? A Approximately like right there. (indicating) So, again, that's like right in front of you? A Correct. I've more over here though, but yes. Did you see any bullet injuries on him at that point, blood on his shirt? A I was not looking. MS. WHIRLEY: Excuse me, 2:30. MS. ALIZADEH: You all want to ask questions now and then if we can't finish today, we'll see if she can come back on another day, is that all right? I'm going to let them ask you some questions, see if we can finish up today. Anybody have any questions? So we heard your recorded statement earlier, okay. Yes, ma'am. In that recorded statement you admitted to posting that stuff that was racist. Yes, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 222 Were you posting racist stuff before this incident? No, ma'am. So you have never made any kind of racist remarks? No, I've never posted on Facebook any racial remark. But you have made racist remarks? I don't like to Yes, ma'am. be considered racist. I try very hard. And I know for a fact my children are not, but does it sound with my language and my behavior that I am racist? Yes, ma'am, but it's not something I approve of, if that makes sense. Honestly, no, but that's okay. You were going to see an African?American friend, you said was a very good friend? Correct. The weeks following this incident, you didn't call her until the next day, but in your recorded statement you said that you called her that day to tell her that wouldn't be coming by. So which was it, you call her that day or the following day? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 223 Now that I don't know, I'd 2 have to have my phone records checked. 3 Okay. You said that you 4 have some short term memory problems? 5 Yes, ma'am. 6 In that you turned left 7 instead of right, did you get confused? Do you get 8 your left and your right confused because of your 9 short term memory problems or you not remembering 10 which way he told you to go? ll I wasn't remembering which 12 way he told me to go. 13 Okay. In the FBI 14 statement you said you saw an apartment complex, you 15 turned into the apartment complex because you 16 thought maybe this was where you miraculously found 17 out where your friend lived; is that right? 18 No, I turned into, I turned 19 left on that into there. 20 Okay. 2l When I seen the apartments, 22 they looked like the apartments that my friend had 23 posted. 24 Okay. Because today you 25 said you turned into the apartment complex to turn Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 224 1 around to get to 270. Did you think they were your 2 friend's apartments or were you intending to turn 3 around? 4 When I went in here, I was 5 attempting to go in there and turn around. 6 Okay. 7 And then I seen the 8 apartments and I thought that they looked like my 9 friend's apartment, but I still needed to ask for 10 directions. 11 Okay. I think we 12 established earlier that you passed up several 13 streets where you could have turned around? 14 Correct. I passed up two 15 that I remember. 16 You're lost. 17 Yes. 18 You admit you get 19 confused? 20 Yes. 21 You said you venture out 22 all the time not knowing where you're going? 23 Correct. 24 I'm just confused and I 25 find it hard to believe that you didn't take your Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 225 first opportunity to turn around. Can you help me understand why that is? Because I don't make turns in the middle of the street and I don't pull into people's driveway. Right, you said that, but you said there were several streets that you passed up. Could you not have turned around in some other streets? I only remember two. Okay. Two instead of three? Right. I only remember the two streets and then when I come around the corner, I was looking for a parking lot. I do have other questions, but I'll ask one more. You said you could not see inside the car very well? Correct. But then you said you could see the heavy set man's hands moving up and down and you could tell he was punching him, and this is according to what you said here and your recorded statement. right? Yes, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxo-Iusoom Page 226 So even though you can see in the car? I could not see the officer, no, because the larger of the two, the heavier set one was blocking the View of the officer. Okay. So how do you know he's being punched? The hand was going up and down. Okay. Going up and down help me or up and down like that. (indicating) No, it was going up and down with his fist clenched or with his, you know. MS. ALIZADEH: Let's do this, let's break. I'm sorry, we have to break at 2:30 today because of other obligations that the grand jurors have and I'm going to walk her out to a waiting room. Why don't you all discuss if you would like to have her come back on a day next week and we'll see about what we can do help get her back here. And then I'll come back, before know if you want to have her return. Can I ask one question or may 1? MS. ALIZADEH: Is it of them or me? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury, Volume XV State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 23, 2014 oxen?Page 227 Just a general question, I guess. MS. ALIZADEH: We can -- I guess for them too. On August 9th after this happened when I got home, I wrote everything down on a piece of paper, would that be easier if I brought that in? MS . ALIZADEH: Sure . Sure, why not. Because that's how I make sure I don't get things confused because then it will be word for word. MS. ALIZADEH: Sure. Okay. (End of the Grand Jury Hearing Volume 15.) State of Missouri SS. County of St. Louis I, a Licensed Certified Court Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and authorized to administer oaths and to certify to depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now pending and undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 228 1 Missouri. 2 The said witness, being of sound mind and being 3 by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly 4 cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the 5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 6 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 7 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 8 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 9 into typewriting, and that the foregoing page 10 correctly sets forth the testimony of the II aforementioned witness, together with the questions 12 propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and 13 is in all respects a full, true, correct and 14 complete transcript of the questions propounded to 15 and the answers given by said witness. I6 I further certify that the foregoing pages 17 contain a true and accurate reproduction of the 18 proceedings. 19 I further certify that I am not of counsel or 20 attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not 21 related to nor interested in any of parties or 22 their attorneys. 23 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 229 COURT MEMO MELON State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson mm 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 11 DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XV 12 13 10/23/2014 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 17 St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office 18 100 S. Central Ave. 19 Clayton, MO 63105 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Page 230 I ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: DUN St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office Mb 100 S. Central Ave. Clayton, MO 63105 mm TotalGore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury, Volume XV October 23, 2014 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above charges had not been paid. that all charges will be paid in the normal of business. GORE PERRY GATEWAY LIPA REPORTING COMPANY 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES my hand and seal on this day of It is anticipated Page 231 COUISE Commission expires Notary Public FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750