trial testimony of Joshua Sutter

September 28, 2021 - 1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SEATTLE 3 4 ) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) CR20-032-JCC 5 ) Plaintiff, ) SEATTLE, WASHINGTON 6 ) v ) September 28, 2021 7 ) KALEB COLE, ) Trial testimony of 8 ) Joshua Sutter Defendant. ) 9 ol VERBATIM REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS 11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOHN C. COUGHENOUR UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE wel 13 14 | APPEARANCES: 15 16 17| For the Plaintiff: Thomas Woods Seth Wilkinson 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 700 Stewart Street 19 Suite 5220 Seattle, WA 98101 20 21| For the Defendant: Christopher Black Teymur Askerov 22 Black & Askerov PLLC 705 2nd Avenue 2 Suite 1111 Seattle, WA 98104 24 2 Stenographicaly reported Transcript produced with computer-aided technology  Septesber 28, 2021 - 2 1 JOSHUA SUTTER 2 Having been sworn under oath, testified as follows: 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. WILKINSON: 5 Q And you may remove your mask, sir 6 Good afternoon. 7| A Hello 8| Q Could you tell the jury your name, please? 9| A Joshua Sutter. 10| Q What city do you currently live in? 11| A Lexington 12| Q What state is that in? 13| A South Carolina. 14] Q Will you just give us a brief pause after I ask a 15| question, so we don't talk over each other? That will help 16| the court reporter 17 So, you live in Lexington, South Carolina? 18| A That's correct 19| @ Are you married? 20 A Yes 21| Q What do you currently do for a living? 22| A Publishing 23| a Publishing? 24| A Correct 25| Q Have you also worked as an FBI informant?  Septesber 28, 2021 - 3 1| A That's correct. 2| Q Is it true that you have been involved in white 3| supremacist groups in the past? 4| A That's correct. 5[ Q And which particular white supremacist group were you a 6| member of? 7| A several. But Aryan Nations, Church of the Sons of Yaweh 8| Q And over what time period were you a member of those 9| groups? 10| A Late '90s up to 2003. 11| @ And what happened in your life in 2003? 12| A I was arrested in 2003. 13| @ What charges were you arrested on? 14| A Possession of a Glock .40 caliber with an obliterated 15| serial number, and possession of a silencer unregistered to 16 | me personally. 17| @ Were you convicted? 18 A Twas 19| @ Did you serve time in jail? 20 A Idid 21 Q How long? 22 A Two years 23 Q Two years? 24| A Yes, sir. 25| Q During that period of time, were you approached by the  Septesber 28, 2021 - 4 1| FBI? 2| A Iwas. 3| Q Did they make a proposal to you? 4| A Yes. I was contacted through my lawyer, soon after my 5| arrest. 6| 0 Okay. And can you explain what the proposal was? 7| A According to my lawyer, after my release I would be -- it 8| was proposed that I could act in a deep-cover capacity. And 9| I was instructed to continue the relationships that I had in 10| the right wing 11] Q Is that another way of saying that you would work as an 12| informant? 13| A Correct 14| @ Okay. And did you agree to do that? 15| A Yes, sir. 16| @ Why did you agree to do that? 17| A I found it an interesting proposal. And at that point, 18 | since I had talked amicably with the FBI, I no longer had any 19 | invested reason not to, really. 20| Q Okay. Can you explain, just very generally, what types of 21 | things you did in your work as an informant for the FBI? 22| A Certainly. I've engaged in travel for person-to-person 23 | meetings with targeted individuals and target organizations 24 | Surveillance. Use of surveillance equipment. Things of 25 those natures  Septesber 28, 2021 - § 1| Q Okay. And did you say you were released from prison in 2| 2004? 3| A That's correct. 4| 0 And so how long after that did you start working as an 5| informant? 6| A Immediately thereafter. 7] @ okay. And did you work more or less continuously as an 8| informant since that time? 9| A That's correct. 10| @ Okay. How much money have you been paid over the period 11| 2004 through the present? 12| A Over $100,000. 13| Q Have you been charged with any other crimes since that 14 2003 conviction? 15| A I have not 16| @ Are you familiar with an organization called Atomwaffen? 17 A Iam 18| Q And how did you first come into contact with Atomwaffen? 19| A I was contacted by one of their members. 20 Q And do you know who the member was that contacted you? 21| A Yes. Cameron Denton 22| Q How did he contact you? 23| A By social media, a message 24| Q And did you have an understanding of why they were 25 interested in you?  Septesber 28, 2021 - 6 1| A I had a reputation in the right wing, and some ties to 2| cultism. So my name was out there. I was approachable. 3| Q And when you were contacted by Mr. Denton, did you report 4| that to the FBI? 5| A I did. 6| Q Did they give you any instructions on how you should 7| respond? 8| A They did 9| @ what did they tell you to do? 10| A Well, I informed them that I had been contacted. And then 11| soon thereafter the events in Tampa occurred. And then I was 12| formally -- I was formally invited to join. And I shot that 13| to my handler, and then was told to join 14| @ Okay. And by your "handler," that's the FBI agent who you 15 | directly worked with? 16| A That's correct. 17| @ So he instructed you that you should go ahead and join the| 18 | Atomwaffen group? 19| A That's correct. 20 Q Okay. How did you initially communicate with other 21 members of the Atomwaffen group? 22| A The initial -- I was vetted on a phone interview, and then 23 | thereafter utilizing Discord, which is an electronic 24 | communications means, and also Wire, which is an encrypted 25 | messaging service.  September 28, 2021 - 7 1| Q And when members of Atomwaffen communicated over Discord 2| or Wire, did they use their real names? 3[ A No, sir 4| 0 Okay. Did they use nicknames instead -- 5| A Correct 6 @ -- or an alias? 7 Did you have an alias? 8| A Correct 9| a what was your alias? 10 A Swissdiscipline 11| a Swissdiscipline? 12 A Correct 13| Q Did you develop an understanding of who the leaders of the| 14 | group were, through your participation in these 15 | communications? 16| A Yeah, that's correct. 17| Q And what were the nicknames of the primary leaders of the 18 | group? 19| A Primary leaders were Rape and Khimaere. 20| @ And you mentioned Khimaere. Did he send out regular 21| communications to the Automwaffen group? 22| A Yes, that's correct. 23| @ Could you describe the nature of the communications he 24| would send out, or what his role seemed to be in this? 25| A General nature of communications, propaganda development,  Septesber 28, 2021 - 8 1| recruitment, operational details 2| Q Okay. Did he post recordings online of himself speaking? 3| A Yes, that's correct. 4| Q I want to turn to 2018. Did you participate in an 5| in-person event in Death Valley, California? 6| A That's correct. 7| @ Was the person that you had come to know as Khimaere 8| present at that event? 9 A ves. 10| @ Do you see the person you had understood to be Khimaere in 11| court today? 12| A Yes, that's correct. 13| @ And can you describe him by what he's wearing? 14| A Individual to the right. White mask. 15 MR. WILKINSON: Could the record reflect he's 16 | identified the defendant? 17 THE COURT: Yes 18| @ What was the event in Death Valley, California? 19| A Death Valley hate camp. 20 Q What is a hate camp? 21| A It's usually a meeting in a rural area, consisting of 22| weapons training, ideological discussion, in-person 23 | discussions, that wouldn't be held otherwise. Propaganda 24 | development. 25| Q Was there, in fact, weapons training at this hate camp?  Septesber 28, 2021 - 9 1| A There were weapons, but no weapon training, per se. 2| Q Okay. What was Mr. Cole's role at the hate camp? 3| A He was the organizer of the camp. 4| 0 Did you also travel to an in-person meeting in Washington 5| state? 6| A That's correct. 7] @ And what event was that? 8| A That was an unnamed hate camp. 9| Q Another hate camp? 10| A Correct 11| @ Where, approximately, did that take place? 12| A Greenwater 13| @ Is that near Mount Rainier? 14| A That's correct. 15| Q Was the defendant present at that hate camp as well? 16| A That's correct. 17| @ What occurred at that hate camp, just generally? 18| A There was some weapons training, firearms, hand-to-hand 19| combat training. Propaganda videos. Still shots. 20| Q Okay. And, again, what was the defendant's role at the 21| hate camp in Washington State? 22| A Primary organizer. 23| Q Did you develop an understanding of where the defendant 24 | was from? 25| A That's correct.  September 28, 2021 - 10 1| Q Where was he from? 2| A Washington 3| 0 Okay. As you attended these various events, did you keep 4| the FBI updated on what you were doing? 5 A Absolutely. 6| Q Would you get permission before you would go? 7| A Yes 8| Q Did they pay your expenses? 9 A ves. 10| Q And did you provide them reports on what happened? 11| A That's correct 12| Q You mentioned a minute ago that you understood, when you 13| met Mr. Cole, that he was living in Washington State. Did 14| you understand later in time that he moved somewhere else? 15| A That's correct. 16| @ Where did he move to? 17| A Conroe, Texas. 18| @ And moving into 2019. Do you remember being contacted by 19 | a member of the group named Krokodil? 20| A That's correct 21 Q Who is Krokodil? And by that I mean, what was his role in 22 the organization? 23| A He was a recruiter 24| Q Okay. And did he make a proposal to you? 25| A That's correct.  September 28, 2021 - 11 1| Q What did he propose? 2| A He informed me that there was an operation called 3| Operation Erste Saule. The gist of it was to send 4| threatening communications to journalists, ADL personnel, 5| civil rights type personnel, in retaliation for media 6| coverage. 7| @ How did he contact you? 8| A Wire 9| a okay. Now, the jury has already seen these chats and 10 | we're not going to go back through them. But I do want to 11| ask you just a couple questions about how you captured them 12| I'm showing you Exhibit 100. Is this the communication where 13 | Krokodil reached out to you? 14| A That's correct. 15| Q And did you do anything to preserve this communication? 16| A That's correct. 17| @ What did you do? 18| A Photocopied -- not photocopied. Photographed 19| Q And did that involve literally just using another phone to 20 | take a picture -- 21 A Yes 22 Q -- of this? 23 And did you attempt to capture each message that you 24 | received in this chain of communications? 25| A That's correct.  September 28, 2021 - 12 1| Q And how frequently did you capture them? 2| A In this particular conversation? 3| a Yeah 4| A I mean, it would be ongoing. 5 Q As they came in? 6| A That's correct. 7| @ Then what would you do with them after you captured them? 8| A Forward them to the FBI. 9] @ So I think you mentioned this is a chat just between you 10 | and Krokodil? 11| A That's correct 12| Q And were you then added to a chat group that was used to 13| plan the operation? 14| A That's correct. 15| @ I'm showing you Exhibit 101 now, the second page. Is this 16 | image the picture of you being added to that group? 17| A That's correct. 18| Q And it says, "Another ranking gentleman added to the mix." 19| Do you have an understanding of what that meant? 20 A At that point I was a trusted upper-echelon member. 21| Q That was referring to you? 22| A Correct 23| Q And as you received these chat messages, under the 24 | Operation Erste Saule group, did you also capture those in 25 the same way that you captured Exhibit 100?  September 28, 2021 - 13 1| A Correct 2| Q Did you regularly capture them as they came in? 3| A That's correct. 4| 0 What did you do with those once you received them? 5| A Forwarded them to the FBI. 6| Q I want to show you exhibit -- actually, let me just ask 7| you. Did you review, before coming to court today, Exhibits 8| 102 through 110? 9 A ves, sir. 10| @ And are those accurate copies of the chats that you 11| collected and sent on to the FBI? 12| A Yes, sir. 13| Q Is the same also true of Exhibits 602, 603, 605 and 700? 14| A Correct 15| Q And those all accurately depict the chats that you 16 | received? 17| A Correct 18| @ Showing you Exhibit 111. This is an e-mail -- and we've 19 | redacted the sender and recipient information -- but is this 20 | an e-mail that you sent to your handler at the FBI? 21| A Correct 22| Q And there's a file there. Can you tell us what that file 23| is? 24| A The name of the file? 25 a Yeah  September 28, 2021 - 14 1| A Attachments-prop-stuff.zip 2| Q where did you get that zip file? 3| A That was sent to me by Khimaere. 4| Q And before Khimaere sent it to you, had you asked Khimaere| 5| for anything? Had you asked him to send you any literature? 6| A That's correct. 7| @ what did you ask him to send you? 8| A I asked him to send me the propaganda posters that were 9| designed for the operation 10| @ Okay. And after you asked him to send them, what 11| happened? What kind of notification did you receive? 12| A They were forwarded to me. 13| @ And just scrolling through Exhibit 111, are these the 14| posters that were contained in the file? 15| A Correct 16| @ After you got them, did you forward them on to the FBI? 17| A That's correct. 18| Q We mentioned -- you mentioned earlier that sometimes 19 | Knimaere would post recordings online in which he gave 20 | speeches or instructions to other members of Atomwaffen 21| A Correct 22| Q And did you review, before coming to court today, 23 | Exhibit 701, which is a recording of one of those? 24| A Yes, sir. 25| Q Was that an authentic recording that you received online?  September 28, 2021 - 15 1] A Yes, sir. 2| Q Did you recognize the voice on that recording? 3| A Yes, sir. 4| Q And who was it? 5| A Knimaere 6 MR. WILKINSON: No further questions. 7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honor 8 CROSS EXAMINATION 9| BY MR. BLACK: 10| @ Good afternoon, Mr. Sutter, I'm Chris Black. I'm one of 11| the lawyers representing Mr. Cole in this case. You 12| testified that you joined Atomwaffen at Cameron Denton's 13| invitation; is that correct? 14| A That's correct. 15| Q That was in 2017? 16| A That's correct. 17| @ Do you know how old Mr. Denton was at the time? 18| A I'm not aware. 19| a Approximately? 20 A Early twenties. 21| Q And you did all of that under FBI supervision, correct? 22| A That's correct. 23| Q You were reporting back to the FBI the whole time, from 24 then on, everything that you did in regard to Atomwaffen? 25| A That's correct.  September 28, 2021 - 16 1| Q Do you remember when you first met Mr. Cole? 2| A Yes. 3| Q When was that? 4| A It would have been in Las Vegas, in early 2018 5 Q@ Do you know how old Mr. Cole was at the time? 6| A Early-to-mid twenties. 7| Q And during the course of your participation in the 8| investigation into Atomwaffen, you provided all the 9| information that you got about Atomwaffen to the FBI, 10 | correct? 11| A That's correct 12| Q And who was your supervising agent? 13| A My handler, or my -- 14| @ Your handler? 16| @ Was that the entire time? The entire time that you were 17 | working for the FBI in the Atomwaffen -- 18| A There's been various special agents involved 19| @ Did you have a handler during the investigation into 20 | Atomwaffen, starting in 2017? 21| A Correct 22| Q Mas it one person, or more than one person? 23| A There were multiple people 24( Q Who were they? 25| A In the context of the Atomwaffen investigation  Septesber 28, 2021 - 17 1| specifically? 2| a correct 3| A I ny primary handler. [Jil -- 1 don't know 4| his last name 5 @ Okay. But to those two, then, you provided all the 6| information that you got? 7| A That's correct 8[ Q So you were involved with Atomwaffen over the next several 9| years, correct? 10| A That's correct 11] Q Until at least the arrest of Mr. Cole in this case, 12| correct? 13| A Correct 14| a In 20207 15| A Correct 16| @ And your participation in Atomwaffen included things 1ike 17| online chats, correct? 18| A That's correct 19| Q In-person meetings, some of which you've discussed? 20| A Correct 21 Q Anything else? 22| A Say again 23| Q Anything else? 24| A I think that's an appropriate summary 25| Q In the online chats and the meetings, the members of  Septesber 28, 2021 - 18 1| Atomwaffen discussed their philosophy, correct? 2| A Correct 3| Q And their ideologies? 4| A Correct 5| Q They discussed plans that they had? 6| A Correct 7| @ If they had been planning a violent operation, you would 8| have certainly reported that to the FBI, correct? 9| A certainly 10| Q You indicated that Mr. Cole's role in Atomwaffen was to 11| create propaganda; is that correct? 12| A Correct 13| Q And he was involved in planning what's been described as 14| hate camps? 15| A Correct 16| @ And at these camps -- well, these camps took place in the 17 | wilderness, basically, right? 18| A Correct 19| Q Over the course of a few days? 20 A Correct 21| Q And there were people shooting guns there? 22| A Correct 23| Q These were people who were legally permitted to possess 24 firearms, to your knowledge? 25| A I would assume.  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Debbie Zurn - RMR, CRR - Federal Reporter - 700 Stewart St. - Suite 17205 - Seattle WA 98101 - (206) 370-8504 September 28, 2021 - 19 Q Except for you, correct? A Correct. Q And there were ideological discussions at these camps? A That's right. Q And filmed -- propaganda videos were filmed there? A Correct. Q Were any plans for any violent attacks discussed at these camps? A If they were, I would have forwarded them to the FBI. Q So, no? A Not specifically, no. Q Briefly, you provided all of the chats that you were engaged in, in relation to Atomwaffen, to the FBI? A That's correct. Q That you ever received, correct? A That's correct. Q There were none that you kept to yourself and didn't provide? A Not to my knowledge. Q You were present at a meeting on January 9, 2020, at the home in Conroe, Texas, correct? A Yes, sir. Q And Mr. Cole and Mr. Denton were there, correct? A That's correct. Q You were there in an undercover capacity, correct? Septesber 28, 2021 - 20 1| A Correct 2| Q And you're aware that the meeting that you had at that 3| house that day was recorded? 4| A Yes, sir. 5| Q Have you ever reviewed those recordings? 6| A I have. 7| @ Do they appear to be an accurate representation of the 8| conversation that was had that day? 9| A correct 10| Q To your knowledge, are there any statements that Mr. Cole 11| made that day that weren't recorded? 12| A Not to my knowledge. 13| Q And if he would have said something relating to planning a 14| violent action, even if it weren't recorded, you would have 15| reported that, correct? 16| A That's correct. 17| @ And that didn't happen? 18| A Well, there was a discussion regarding the operation, 19 | which involved threatening actions against certain targets, 20 | so that's -- 21| Q The one that was recorded, correct? 22| A Correct 23| Q And that was the discussion about sending the posters, 24 | correct? 25| A That's correct.  September 28, 2021 - 21 1| Q Do you remember being involved in a discussion with 2| Mr. Cole that day, during that meeting, where you were 3| talking with him about not wanting to overshoot or undershoot 4| anything? 5) A sure 6| Q And that was about not wanting to take it too far, 7| correct? 8 A Well, I -- there were statements by me. I was asking them 9| to see -- to gain a litmus of what they were doing. In other 10 | words, I was saying: I don't want to undershoot or 11| overshoot, so explain to me what you're doing 12| @ And Mr. Cole did do that, correct? 13| A I believe so, yes. 14| Q And he said you don't want to overshoot it, correct? 15| A I think he said that we shouldn't overshoot it or 16 | undershoot it. 17| a Okay. Thank you, sir. 18 There was no indication to you, during that meeting 19| that day, that Mr. Cole had any idea that you were working 20 | with the FBI; is that correct? 21| A Correct 22| Q He had no indication -- there was no indication to you 23 that he was aware that an FBI agent was present? 24 A No, sir 25| Q No reason that you know of that he would have been careful  Septesber 28, 2021 - 22 1| with his true thoughts; is that correct? 2| A Correct 3| @ He thought that he was among friends? 4 A sure 5| Q And that you were all involved in planning this thing? 6 A sure 7| Q He didn't appear to be choosing his words carefully; is 8| that correct? 9| A say again. 10| Q He didn't appear to be choosing his words carefully? 11| A I mean, it was a serious conversation. So not any more 12| than usual, I would assume 13| Q He was drinking alcohol, correct? 14| A sure 15| Q You and the FBI agent brought that, correct? 16| A We brought some beer. 17| Q And you shared that with Mr. Cole? 18| A Sure 19| Q You indicated that you've been paid over $100,000 working 20 | with the FBI; is that correct? 21| A Correct 22| Q Have you paid taxes on that? 23 A No. 24| Q Did you tell the FBI that? 25 A No.  September 28, 2021 - 23 1] Q You didn't tell the FBI that you weren't paying taxes? 2| A No. 3| Q Did you tell them, at some point prior to this trial, in 4| the last few weeks, perhaps? 5 A Correct 6| a sir, is that a yes? 7| A Correct 8| Q Is there any indication that you're likely to be charged 9| with tax evasion for that? 0 A I-- 1 MR. WILKINSON: Objection, relevance 12 THE COURT: Sustained 13 MR. BLACK: Nothing further, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Redirect? 15 MR. WILKINSON: No redirect, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: You can step down. Put your mask back 17| on 18 (Witness excused.) 19 20 21 22 23 2 25