D.N.M._1_21-cr-00524-MLG_219_0

Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 1 0f 94 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO 3 | unITED states oF AMERICA, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs. CASE NO. 21-CR-524 KWR 6 | Luis warIscaL-LopEz, 7 Defendant . 8 9 10 1 TRANSCRIPT OF JAMES HEARING 12 BEFORE THE HONORABLE KEA W. RIGGS 13 TUESDAY, JANUARY 17, 2023; 9:00 A.M. 14 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 15 16 17 18 Proceedings reported by machine shorthand and transcript produced by Computer-Aided Transcription. 19 20 21 22 Reported By: Danna Schutte Everett, CRR, RPR, RMR, CCR 139 23 United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Boulevard, Northwest 24 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 Phone: (505) 348-2091 25 dannadawn@comcast . net Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 2 of 94 2 1 | FOR THE UNITED STATES: 2 MR. NICHOLAS JAMES MARSHALL MR, MARK CHRISTIAN PFIZENMAYER 3 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE District of New Mexico 4 201 Third Street, Northwest, Suite 900 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 5 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 6 MR. RYAN J. VILLA 7 THE LAW OFFICE OF RYAN J. VILLA 5501 Eagle Rock Avenue, Northeast, Suite C2 8 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87113 and 9 MS. SARAH M. GORMAN LAW OFFICES OF ROBERT D. GORMAN 10 1201 Lomas, Northwest, Suite A Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 1 Also Present: Ms. Dinorah Gutierrez, Interpreter 12 Ms. Melinda Gonzalez-Hibner Ms. Michelle Cobb 13 Mr. Byron Abeyta 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 3 of 94 3 1 rrr rt at rat aa aan 2 (In open court. Defendant present.) 3 THE COURT: Good morning. Please be seated. 4 Good morning. We are here for a James hearing in 5 |united states versus Luis Mariscal-Lopez, 21-CR-524. 6 Would counsel for the United States identify yourself 7 | for the record. 8 MR. MARSHALL: Good morning, Your Honor. Nicholas 9 | Marshall with Mark Pfizenmayer on behalf of the United States. 10 |Also at counsel table, we have FBI Agent Michelle Cobb and Task 11 [Force officer Byron Abeyta. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 Counsel for the defendant. 14 MR. VILLA: Good morning, Your Honor. Ryan Villa and 15 | sarah Gorman on behalf of the defendant, Luis Mariscal-Lopez, 16 |who is present, in custody, utilizing the assistances of an 17 | interpreter. 18 THE COURT: All right. Good morning. 19 We are here for the James hearing this month. 20 The Court has reviewed all of the pleadings in this 21 [matter. How would you like to start this morning on behalf of 22 [the United states? 23 MR. MARSHALL: And, Your Honor, this is the -- I'm 24 [sorry -- this is the first time I've done one of these 25 | hearings, and so I just -- I don't want to do the wrong format. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 4 of 94 A 1 |1 was anticipating that we were going to call Agent Cobb in an 2 |attempt to establish the conspiracy and the members of the 3 | conspiracy, and then I was not sure how the Court wanted to 4 | proceed with the statements, if you were going to go with the 5 |agent or if we were going to argue the statements, because the 6 | statements -- the body of the statements are in the 7 | supplements. 8 THE COURT: And I have reviewed all of those 9 | statements. 1'11 leave it up to you if you want to call 10 |anyone. I think we could probably argue them without a witness 11 [unless you-all want to put a witness on the stand. I'll leave 12 [that up to you. I'm not going to tell you how to present your 13 | case. 14 MR. VILLA: And I don't want to tell Mr. Marshall how 15 [to do it either, Judge. I know there was some question for 16 | some of the statements that we identified in the briefing about 17 | the timing, so there might need to be testimony about that as 18 [well as who's the speaker, who's the -- who's the declarant, 19 [who are they talking to. Some of that is clear, but not for 20 [all the statements. 21 THE COURT: All right. Well, let's start with the 22 | conspiracy portion, if we could. 23 MR. MARSHALL: Okay, Your Honor. Then the United 24 [states would call Agent Cobb to the stand. 25 THE COURT: All right. Watch your step up, if you Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS SRT LST Te 25 provided to him. He notified the FBI, and that's when we 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS SRT TL STE te i Jsvareot on tossne sossivet meron 2 Jin Sitters on po ot re sosesigpion sas tn dobmried 3 [io 390 seston. sine ome ry 82 2 [i ven van n seer orn 3 [i on shee serena shot. tos ots soseing 4 o [ios ot 10 commons us eh sin # nn i v0 % [ever on 50 sue aherset, 50 vere wens o she tottertente oe 3 | rerun the evi sho whee ek sssatent eetpEi 5 session ore sn vow sh atest 19 [an Toone snssvssusie woe Sorte Dmioguess session Tomar 15. | sob Stach rabee tegen 0 [or oe vie dt song id ok dune vg 58 Waving MS 8 [or og sescetiet so 3 stat she wit as ween Sends wich 18 [#10 ori 20a 310 ito van singed pave shins 4m 18 Jorons trom sraphen somo hey shen sd essen 29 resreins vo seach i do susston oc sire nee ost 18 |eheir none where thay prepares rom share shay ineanied to 19 |eersare vers share sve mes sbsotpentiy musdeses 20 | 5 sen to tees shu do « stve1e wt Tou senetenad he 2 [aener. 046 thay ever do anpenin so Hind of eotabiien whee 10. [rventon so mot etm my sem thus we rem eget 2 | sanest 24 a. They did. Crystal was contacted by her bank. Her debit 25 card had been taken and someone had taken money out of her TTR oppose BE HE I sarees 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS SRT TL STE Te 5 le. You also mentioned that there was communications over 24 a. Jazmerae Torrez. 25 Jo. And what were these communications over Facebook like? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS SRT TL STE te i [150 we sag rmmntsing sons 2 [a Ton semintasstnen reg sesensh on Sonny 0 98 80 3 [roesives wie saension sen 7ascte ot 4 Session ioe 2 [orstngesse she son the Tra seston om hres Te 3. [rin owe hey ween pin 2 on oe or sume sor #0 wt & Jeeertvmrer she som on Seti tee Suvi #2 24m sive The 3 | atenetonassttront she duruees 32e, whace 4043 toes 02 3 [toes vem ta ten hn ay #0 A303 wees stati Ane ie ME iy 10 oat tenses wate dete orks Dey a7 30498 10 Joes ove ve 430 series 2 92 Goes Guia you ear whe ebay 4 fox the is | owe ” —— I I 9 [in tes Seon av ston Soeene wea sorry Sees Ny i [a onar. ant an sare of your smestigunion: ais you sesen 2 [thar they vere avis vo pick up Sessa Hore and bring her hack 2 Joe coves sescare teu nn ve 2 Jor set sree van ones soe socsresn 28 [a Tome ves ov 302 nccacten sane 40 Soptota, wow Horie: 25 Jo. And who was there when they returned with Jessica Mora? TTR oppose BE HE I sarees 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS SRT TL STE Te 9 Je. What do you mean by "they had prepared a room"? 24 a. So part of those plans, most of it, from what we learned, 25 was directed by Crystal Ramos. Luis Lopez was part of the plan 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR ee so 4 | tosh, a/k/a Robert Abeyta. 24 Q. Now, and so that had been the plan. From the witness 25 statements, what did -- what did you learn occurred when 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS FT TL IR Te 24 frame that we've pieced together at this point. There were 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS FT TL SR ee 9 of acts were they committing that day? 24 in the home. At some point, does Johnny Black return? 25 |a. Yes. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 130194 4 Direct Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |o. 2nd had he done anything to the vehicle? Did they 2 | describe him having done anything to the vehicle he returned 3 [in 4 |a. so witnesses stated that Johnny left before Jessica Mora 5 | had gotten to the residence with Crystal and Jazmerae; that he 6 | took Jessica Romero's vehicle during that time frame, and when 7 | he came back, the back seats were laid down and there was 8 |plastic in the back of the vehicle. 9 |o. And as part of the messages, was there some sort of ruse, 10 |1ike that Johnny Black had broken up with Crystal Ramos or 11 | something to that effect? 12 |A. Yes, in the messages, they stated that Johnny had left, 13 [that also Jessica Romero [sic] was missing, and indicated that 14 | they had left together or there was some sort of romantic 15 | involvement between them. 16 |Q. And so what did they do with Jessica Mora's remains at 17 | that point? 18 |a. At that point, they put Jessica's remains in the back of 19 | Jessica Romero's vehicle and they departed. From what I know, 20 [that was Johnny Black. I don't recall who else was in the 21 |vehicle. I know Jessica Romero remained at the house. IT 22 [believe Jorge Dominguez also left. They drove the vehicle 23 [around for a couple days. That also included Crystal Ramos. 24 [They drove the vehicle around, came back to the house. They 25 [then decided they needed to dispose of her remains, and so they Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS FT TL STR ue 24 A. I believe it was 4:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. 25 Jo. And when they were burning things, were there -- was there 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS FT TL SR es 7 |a. One of the burn sites was Jessica Mora's body. The other 21 some point. What did you do with the remains once they were 24 truck that they had been using. They drove that back into 25 Espafiola. They then put that box -- They put some sort of 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR se 8 Q. And what was -- what information did you receive of how 9 they disposed of that toolbox? 24 a. Yes. 25 Jo. And what did they find? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS FT TL SR eT i [20 90 tumhene ton 4m 10 primes soto a8 sok ven 1 [assassin sum nase some Tom ed ess om ee 3 [portvmcy aoe 308 own tt snares atone 4 50 2 [sin aon drsste #50 site san # somes asst of sc and 3 ten sett seo Son ov #0 rie Biss i densest £ [roe vee 230m sme ot 58 $50 got or. webos 3 | eenpoonssesms 498 95 eo soessenton of 0st om, 48 van I 5 Jor swe © whine 20 vans of som ck o siztie nis. 1m vin 19 [sven vo vere wasting spo sin of sre pian of whos vee gning 11. ve warp. 448 you wave sn oppossunt so Soneevins — ox RA 15 Joos on sere pie. ot 10 dreeeston ese 3 san Mert A P—— is ar 16 Jar et whan att os va == wn tet be dusortn 2 aving WF 8 | soeren soserines the pion ss sensing = the week senting 19 Jun v0 shen he muster conser Shor Shey wens aisenes 4 2 [ers gor sncontorsavies and he movi Sone ox they wouis shop 2 [atecunsiog i5 in trons of hin. 70 wan the shen Shey vere 10. [restr sort sesston he so ome me soon ste vot Soverse 28. [wen sense sone teem te snot case te 43m me 2 [an unten ime be sete. 25 Jo. You mentioned, at some point, that there was some TTR oppose BE HE I sarees 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR ee se 19 |e. Did he also describe what they did with the body 24 pushed it off into the water to dispose of the box that 25 contained Jessica Mora's body. Again, at that time, he 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR ee ss 6 |e. And what was that? 9 Jessica Mora's body. 24 Q. And in that statement, he describes the remains -- what 25 does he describe as having happened to the remains at that 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR ee a 8 Q. Now, you had mentioned you interviewed Johnny Black. And 22 Q. Now, there's another individual by the name of Stephanie 25 A. Yes. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  NS FT TL SR Te 8 |e. And did she describe moving heavy boxes at some point, or 24 Q. And when did those start, again? 25 |a. Those began on January 13th of 2018. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oS FT TL SNR Pe 1 Q. And when were the communications for them to kind of meet 24 a. No. 25 Jo. You mentioned that Mr. Abeyta left. What did Ms. Romero 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  ne NS FT TL SR eT as 13 Approximately how long did they keep those remains at 25 THE COURT: You may. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Ce OS SRT TL SITE Te a 7 You said that you got involved when you were notified by Task 8 Force Abeyta that he might know the location of a body or a 24 Q. At that point in time, it was not known that Ms. Mora was 25 [missing or deceased? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 250194 5 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |a. at that time, she was a missing person, but it wasn't 2 | known to the FBI. 3 |o. so there was something in law enforcement database 4 | identifying her as a missing person? 5s |a. ves, sir. 6 |o. okay. and if I'm understanding it correctly, 7 |mr. Dominguez is interviewed. And then are the other 8 | interviews -- do they happen after that, Ms. Romero, Mr. Black, 9 |and ur. Abeyta? 10 |a. ves, sir. 11 |o. Okay. Was Jazmerae Torrez ever interviewed? 12 |a. ves, sir. 13 [o. Who interviewed her? 14 |a. 1 did. 15 |Q. crystal Ramos was not interviewed? 16 |a. No, sir. 17 |e. why not? 18 |a. she was deceased. 19 |e. Do you know when she died? 20 |A. 1 know it was within two to three months of when we 21 | 1earned about -- from April 11th. I don't recall the exact 22 | date. 23 0. so at least once the FBI gets notified and opens its 24 | investigation, which happens around April llth, 2018, after 25 [that point in time, Ms. Ramos was never interviewed because she Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 260194 4 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 | had already died? 2 |a. That's correct. 3 |o. Now, there is a discussion -- Or, excuse me. There is an 4 | interview of Ms. Ramos that occurs, I believe, in March of 2014 5 |by a Detective amber Marez. 6 |a. ves, sir. 7 |e. po you know why Detective Marez went to interview 8 |Ms. Ramos on that date? 9 |A. That was for the missing person's report that Detective 10 |marez was investigating. 11 [o. With what agency is Detective Marez? 12 |A. At the time, I believe she was with Santa Fe County 13 [sheriff's office. 14 |o. At that point in time, the FBI was not involved in the 15 [missing persons investigation? 16 |a. No, sir. 17 |Q. other than that interview of Detective -- by Detective 18 |Marez of Ms. Ramos, are you aware of any other interviews of 19 |Ms. Ramos by law enforcement that related to this case? 20 (a. 1 am not. 21 0. 1 want to ask you about the Facebook Messenger. When did 22 [the FBI obtain the Facebook messages? 23 |A. 1 don't know the exact date. It was in the months 24 | following us opening this investigation. 25 |o. And so generally when Facebook information is requested, Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST TL SCHR rT» 24 this torture and murder occurred on January the 15th, 2018? 25 |a. I believe it's January 14th leading into January 15th that 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe ONS ST SATE rem 22 Jo. How do you know they got her from the casino as opposed to 23 she jumped out of the car like Jazmerae Torrez said in her 24 messages to her? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 290194 54 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 | residence with the two individuals, with Crystal and Jazmerae. 2 |o. Now -- And I want to ask about that too. You said she got 3 | back with Crystal and Jazmerae. So do you believe it was 4 |crystal and Jazmerae that picked her up from Buffalo Thunder? s |a. 1a. 6 |o. so they picked her up in a car and drove her back to 7 | mekracken? 8 |a. ves. 9 |o. 1s there any other information to corroborate that besides 10 | the Facebook messages and the witness statements? 11 |A. Not that I can think of. 12 |o. okay. So, for instance, video from Buffalo Thunder or 13 [cell phone tower location information, anything like that? 14 |A. Not that I'm aware of. 15 [@. 1'11 get back to that in just a second, but let me ask you 16 | this before I go. You said Ms. Ramos had contacted her bank 17 | and viewed footage showing Ms. Mora stealing money -- or using 18 | her ATM card to withdraw money, correct? 19 |a. correct. 20 [o. That was the motive, that was why Ms. Ramos was angry with 21 [Jessica Mora and did the things she did to her? 22 a. ves, sir. 23 [o. At least that's what you believe? 24 [a ves, sir. 25 [o. How did you know Ms. Ramos had contacted her bank and Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 300194 5, Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 | viewed footage? 2 |a. witness statements, and we also have the photograph that 3 | she was provided by the bank of Jessica Mora at the ATM taking 4 | that money out of crystal's account. 5 |o. who were the witnesses that said Ms. Ramos did that? 6 |a. Jessica Romero was present with her, went to the bank with 7 | her when this photograph was shown. Because at the time 8 | crystal believed that Jessica Romero was the one who had taken 9 | the money from her, and so she had gone with her to view this 10 | photograph, and then they identified Jessica Mora. 11 [0.1 see. As far as you know, did anybody else go with 12 |Ms. Ramos to view the photograph at the bank? 13 |A. Not to my knowledge. 14 [o. And the photograph you obtained that Ms. Ramos looked at, 15 | who did you obtain that from? 16 |A. 1 don't know that information. I wasn't the agent that 17 | obtained that photograph. 18 |@. So the only one -- I guess the only folks that are living 19 | that would know Ms. Ramos did that would be Jessica Romero and 20 | perhaps someone at the bank. 21 |A. That were present that day? From my understanding, those 22 [are the only two people that went. 23 |o. okay. And Ms. Ramos may have told other people that they 24 [took that trip, but no one else was with them, as far as you 25 | know? Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Ce OS SRT TL SITE Ten 9 Q. It was other witnesses that told you that Mr. Black knew 25 A. Those individuals were Crystal Ramos, Jazmerae Torrez, 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST STE eT w 3 Je. You mean Jessica Romero? 24 Q. Now, Johnny Black was romantically involved with Crystal 25 Ramos, correct? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST TL STE eT 22 Q. Because she was present when they talked about the plans? 24 Q. And I think you said it was her room that was the room 25 used to put down the plastic. Correct? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Ce OS SRT TL SITE ew 9 Q. Who told you that? 24 a. It was a car. It belonged to Jessica Romero. 25 Jo. And the car had been prepared with the seats down and 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 350194 55 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |plastic in the -- in the car? 2 |a. ves, sir. 3 lo. To put Ms. Mora's body in it? 4 |a. 1 pelieve so. 5 |o. okay. so Mr. Black is aware of the plans, lives at the 6 | house, he's ostensibly there when they prepare the room for 7 |Ms. Mora. He didn't happen to be there when Ms. Mora is 8 |brought, but he comes back with a car prepared to take her body 9 |and then helps dispose of the body, as I understand it. 10 |a. ves, sir. 11 [Q. Now, are you aware that Mr. Black entered a Plea Agreement 12 [with respect to some of this information? 13 |a. ves, sir. 14 [o. In that Plea Agreement, he did not admit to any conspiracy 15 [to kidnap, murder, or torture Ms. Mora? 16 |A. That's my understanding. 17 [@. He only had admitted to being an accessory after the fact? 18 [a. ves, sir. 19 |e. so as far as you understand, with the prosecution of 20 [mr. Black, it was never proven or established that he was a 21 [part of any conspiracy prior to the murder? 22 a. That's correct. 23 [o. But the witnesses, the same witnesses you rely on for 24 [these other statements told you that Mr. Black was aware of the 25 | plans, was involved, lived in the house, knew what was going on Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 360194 54 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |with Jazmerae Torrez, correct? 2 |a. ves, sir. 3 |o. You testified about DNA found on a cigarette butt at the 4 |burn site for Mr. Lopez, correct? 5s |a. ves, sir. 6 |o. was there any DNA evidence found at McKracken establishing 7 | that mr. Lopez could have been there? 8 |a. wot to my knowledge. 9 |o. Any other forensic evidence that would establish that 10 |Mr. Lopez was there? Fingerprints? Something else? 11 |a. No, sir. 12 [o. other than witness statements, do you have any other 13 [evidence that Mr. Lopez was at McKracken when Ms. Mora was 14 | murdered? 15 |a. No, sir. 16 |. Where they lived at McKracken during that time period? 17 |a. No, sir. 18 |@. so the folks that told you about how it went down, as far 19 |as Ms. Mora arrives with Jazmerae Torrez and Crystal Ramos, 20 | comes in the house, she's attacked, stripped, tortured, killed, 21 [and put into the truck, the folks that actually witnessed that 22 part, it's Jorge Dominguez, right? 23 [a ves, sir. 24 [o. And he told you about what he saw or did? 25 a. ves, sir. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST TL SCHR rT» 1 Q. Jessica Romero? 9 Q. Anyone else? 24 Q. He didn't name anybody else that was involved? 25 A. No, sir. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe ONS ST TL SATE Tew 2 J 70 mig ori son omarion osha sorts, sip 2 [in Tote cesta 3 [0 So sites seostan ang ater sossemsont 2 [rn Tote core 3 [on tire vats yom son it vm sy ae sion ¢ [rr 3 Jan oe vow ster son som sont out seme on we ee 3 fan orien vate soon sow te shoves up srvomande wien i 5 fa oe 12 {o. or snything tha mppened sefore i. Hora accivat MR 1 [6 a0 tur as una mand at, veri sats 52 ene buen si, 19 sows ws vote vo wow Seas Deming, corset # [or soe for svten sonerer 18 [in ster Sores peosstopon topsmmaon, spoh 19 |Q. Did anybody else? 2 [on 1m aorese you mane sores — 2 [or sorte ant session Foner 2 [on 3 bettors shaves i. 25 [or ebony sisen dite seis you anthing bout. how shat vere 2 Jame 25 A. No, sir. TTR oppose BE HE I sarees 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe ONS ST TL STE re» 3 Je. But the two of them were both there? 8 |0Q. And that was it, right? 20 happened over a period of hours, a helicopter came, so they got 23 go? 25 residence at 302 McKracken and placed in the backyard next to 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST TL SATER reer w 24 a. Yes, sir. 25 Jo. Did she say who helped her move it? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Ce OS STL SITE Tew 4 Q. Was there cement in it at the time? 9 day. 10 (0. And none of the other witnesses ever interviewed told you 24 Q. And that -- that's based on what Johnny Black told you? 25 |a. That's based on information provided by Robert Abeyta. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 420194 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |o. okay. what did Mr. Abeyta tell you? 2 |a. Mr. Abeyta had had a conversation with Jazmerae Torrez, 3 |and she described to him that the box was still in the 4 |backyard, and Tosh said that was approximately three -- it had 5 | been back there approximately three months from when she was 6 | murdered to when this conversation took place. 7 |o. so as you understood it, Mr. Abeyta's having a 8 | conversation with Jazmerae approximately three months after the 9 | murder and she's saying the box is still here? 10 |A. whenever this conversation took place, he's saying it was 11 [there for about three months. I don't know if the conversation 12 [was three months, but they had this conversation. She said the 13 | box is back there, and he freaked out and told them they were 14 | not very smart for doing that, and then in his statement to us 15 | it was the box was back there for about three months. 16 |o. so what I want to try to understand is: Did you 17 | understand Mr. Abeyta to be saying that at the time he spoke to 18 | Jazmerae the box was still there, or she's telling him this 19 [after the fact? 20 [a. 1 believe the conversation was the box is still in the 21 | back of the house. 22 0. So as the conversation is happening, whenever it happened, 23 [the box is still there? 24 [a ves, sir. 25 [o. This isn't a conversation that took place after they'd Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe ONS ST TL SITE Tew 8 Q. As far as you know, he's still there during the time that 25 A. This is several years after this incident occurred. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Ce OS SRT TL SITE Tew 2 Jor swt stere i snp sont 2 [ir Snipers ssrssessen 3 [0 Servers vie dots reg vere $0 2 [5 sovisese snap sere sts en 2a Gorge 3 [i sotto on te orton be snikn 2 ee Gopen 44.8 300, £ Lassa in Fe ott dt ev dione Shin shirt sot Spend on ee wie 8 |e. So all of those statements are a couple of years after HE 0 a tem ote, 10 Jo oe sentenn tris save any sbves sooutetgn sot 140 10 Joson st who == i ust soe Giaronen eonprssnt NS 8 Jin ot desertion non 2 was depp oman 4h wan moc a 18 [itsonng sorae sont ants scingetis He dupes sh 4 do 18 [uses ve tre aretent, aim 20 strech when soe sane doe 7 | anor sine? i 5 [6 516 sou suvernine wha va shots reson sor setiouing hor 2 [orders or their navive ox what — you know why = shy sonia 2 [ther do thar tor sonsboss, fox i. men? 2 [nr 3 receis intormavion inticaring sore was trying to 25 [orotect senares his siriteiont ax the times from being inveives 24 or to protect her in some way. As far as Luis, I -- just my 25 understanding, that he resided there. I don't have any further TTR oppose BE HE I sarees 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 450194 45 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 | information on that. 2 |o. so the motive for Mr. Dominguez is to protect his 3 | then-girlfriend Jessica Romero? 4 la. ves. 5 |o. and Jessica Romero needed protection for what reason? 6 |a. crystal and Jessica were very close friends until this 7 | money was stolen, and Crystal had then accused Romero of 8 | stealing that money, and their relationship drastically 9 | changed. crystal stopped talking to her and accused her of 10 | doing this, took her to the bank, and they, you know, viewed 11 [that photo together, and so their relationship had just kind of 12 |broken down at that point, is my understanding. 13 [o. so is it correct, then, that Crystal wanted Jessica Romero 14 [to participate in the torture of Ms. Mora? 15 |a. ves, sir. 16 |o. sort of to clear this up, if you will, this accusation? 17 |A. The information I have is that she wanted her to 18 [participate and she didn't want to; that Jorge participated in 19 [order to protect Romero. You know, whether that's from 20 [physical harm herself, I don't know, but just to protect her. 21 0. So as best as you know, although while Jessica Romero was 22 [there at the house on McKracken, she did not participate with 23 [any of the things that took place with Ms. Mora? 24 |A. To my understanding, that's correct. 25 [o. she was also at the burn site, correct? Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 460194 44 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |a. ves. ves, sir. 2 |o. But other than being present, you don't believe she 3 | participated in any way with helping destroy evidence? 4 |a. wo, sir. 5 |o. Before she was interviewed, at some point after 6 |mr. Dominguez told you guys about what happened, had she tried 7 | to contact police or tell anybody what happened? 8 |a. wot to my knowledge. 9 |o. About how many times has Jorge Dominguez been interviewed? 10 |A. Three that I know of. 11 |@. Has he been consistent about the details in what happened 12 | in each of those interviews? 13 |A. His statements have changed over time. It may have been 14 [three or four interviews. I don't recall specifically. 15 | Initially, he was distancing himself, saying this happened, "I 16 | didn't participate.” Over the course of the next couple 17 | interviews, he then opened up about: "I participated. I did 18 [participate in the murder. I was at the burn site.” But 19 [initially he was trying to protect himself and wasn't saying he 20 [was actually involved in it. 21 [o. And his last interview was actually a debrief that took 22 |place, I think, here at the courthouse, right? 23 [a ves, sir. 24 [o. And you were present for that? 25 a. ves, sir. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe NS ST TL SCHR re» 24 Mr. Black's interview? 25 |a. Yes, sir. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 480194 44 Cross-Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |o. Because he provided directions on how to find it? 2 |a. ves, sir. 3 MR. VILLA: May I have just a moment, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5s |o. (By Mr. villa) Just one clarification. You said earlier 6 | in your cross-examination "they" put Black there before Mora 7 |arrives. who is "they? 8 |A. 1 recall that's information from Jorge Dominguez. I 9 |believe it was Jorge, Robert Abeyta, and Jessica Romero, but I 10 [can't remember specifically. It was all three of them. 11 |o. okay. 12 MR. VILLA: And, Judge, with the understanding that 13 | there may be more direct examination on some of the statements, 14 [that's all the cross I have for now. 15 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 16 Before I let you ask any questions, I just have one, 17 |and I may have missed it earlier. 18 Who, according to your statements that you received, 19 [who was involved in the attack in the living room when Mora 20 [arrived at the house? 21 THE WITNESS: That would be Jorge Dominguez, Luis 22 | Lopez, Crystal Ramos, Jazmerae Torrez. 23 THE COURT: All right. And who told you that 24 | information? 25 THE WITNESS: Jessica Romero, Jorge Dominguez. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  oe FORTUNE SEE TDA» 24 25 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG_Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 500194 Redirect Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 |BY MR. MARSHALL: 3 |o. on cross-examination, you were asked a few questions. I 4 | just want to kind of hone in on a couple of them. 5 You were asked some questions about Johnny Black. 6 |and is it your understanding that he has pled guilty to some 7 | charges? 8 |a. ves, sir. 9 |o. And are those charges accessory after the fact, to wit, 10 | kidnapping resulting in death? 11 [a ves, sir. 12 MR. MARSHALL: And, Your Honor, I would request that 13 | the Court take judicial notice of the Plea Agreement -- I can 14 [provide the Plea Agreement, if necessary, to the Court -- as 15 |well as the information and judgment that discussed those 16 | charges. 17 THE COURT: I will take judicial notice. No need to 18 [provide a copy. 19 |e. (By Mr. Marshall) At one point, defense counsel also 20 [asked you some questions regarding Jessica Romero and Jorge 21 |Dpominguez. Now, you mentioned that they had been in a 22 | relationship at some point. 23 [a ves. 24 [o. At some point, did that relationship end? 25 a. ves. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page510f94 5; Redirect Examination - Michelle Cobb 1 |o. By the time you were interviewing Jessica Romero, had the 2 | relationship ended with Mr. Dominguez? 3 la. Yes. 4 |o. what was -- How would you characterize their relationship 5 |at the point when you were interviewing Ms. Romero at that 6 |point, the nature of their relationship and the feelings that 7 | Ms. Romero had for Mr. Dominguez? 8 |A. Ms. —- she described they had a really volatile 9 | relationship. There was a lot of domestic violence between the 10 [two of them, and it didn't seem like it was on good terms at 11 | that time. 12 [@. Also on cross-examination, defense counsel brought up some 13 |of the inconsistencies from Mr. Dominguez in his statements. 14 | However, did the evidence that you recovered kind of support 15 | some of the statements that he made, such as were you able to 16 | recover plastic from the burn site? 17 |a. ves, sir. 18 |@. Were you even sort of -- What other findings did you 19 | recover at the burn site that were consistent with his prior 20 | statements to you? 21 A. 1 believe there was a part of a blanket, a 22 | black-and-white-striped blanket that had been described that 23 [was also potentially rolled up with the plastic. 24 [o. Did he also describe, like, a toolbox? 25 a. ves. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  A AI 24 Now, where would you like to go from here, United 25 States? 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  RL STE SARS 8 ready. 24 THE COURT: All right. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  A STE SS 24 MR. VILLA: So moving on to Subsection B, number 2, 25 the initial description of the plan to torture. 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 550194 gg 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. VILLA: So with the proviso that we're not a 3 | hundred percent sure if it was J.T. or Black, right, that -- 4 | who made the statement, but we know that Ramos was one of the 5 |declarants. We do agree that that is a statement in 6 | furtherance of the conspiracy. 7 THE COURT: So number 2 on page 4 —- 8 MR. VILLA: Correct. 9 THE COURT: -- under Jorge Dominguez? 10 All right. 1 MR. VILLA: And then skipping to number 4 under 12 | Dominguez, which starts on page 5 and goes to page 6 -- 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. VILLA: -- the description about the plan, we 15 | agree with that one. 16 THE COURT: ALL right. 17 MR. VILLA: Turning to page 10, now we're on 18 | statements by Mr. Abeyta, Cl, dealing with the plan -- 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. VILLA: -- we agreed to that one. 21 And then 3 and 4 for Mr. Abeyta, both on page 12. We 22 [agreed with those two. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. VILLA: Yeah, I think 6, with the proviso that -- 25 [1 think the Government agreed to this -- it's Ramos and Black Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 560194 4 1 |are the declarants that -- the brief says on page 14, "and 2 | possibly other co-conspirators.” 3 THE COURT: ALL right. 4 MR. VILLA: So I think we're dropping "the other 5 | co-conspirators” but agreeing that it was Ramos and Black. 6 Is that right Mr. Marshall? 7 MR. MARSHALL: Yes. If there was another 8 | co-conspirator, I'd have to -- we'd have to either approach or 9 | argue about that, but we're agreeing to Ramos and Black. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 1 MR. VILLA: Now turning to Jessica Romero on page 16, 12 |p2, just the first paragraph in the clipped portion. 13 THE COURT: On page 162 14 MR. VILLA: Correct. The rest of it, I think we've 15 |agreed. It's just a narrative description of what happened. 16 |But the first paragraph we agree to. 17 THE COURT: So the rest of it is on page 17, correct? 18 MR. VILLA: Well, the rest of what's in the box on 19 | 16. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. VILLA: So the box on 16 has -- one, two, three, 22 | four, five -- 23 THE COURT: So just the first paragraph only? 24 MR. VILLA: Yes. And then with respect to the rest 25 [of those, there's no agreement. There might be some argument Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 570194 1 |by the Government, I think. 2 THE COURT: ALL right. 3 MR. VILLA: So number 5 on page 18. 4 THE COURT: ALL right. 5 MR. VILLA: And then on page 20, number 7. 6 THE COURT: ALL right. 7 MR. VILLA: And with respect to the Facebook 8 | statements, for both of them, there are conversations in the 9 | sanuary time frames of January 15th and then backward, 13th, a 10 | few on the 9th and the 10th. So subject to foundation, which 11 | would be establishing these are these folks' Facebook accounts, 12 [we agree to those; however, there are some that are in the 13 |March time frame, later on, and we don't agree to the March 14 |time frame, just the January time frame. 15 And to be clear for the record, those are the 16 | conversations between Ms. Mora, Crystal -- Ramos is identified 17 |in this as Crystal Torrez, and Jazmerae Torrez in that January 18 [time frame. January 2018. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. VILLA: I think those were all the agreements. 21 MR. MARSHALL: I believe so. 22 THE COURT: All right. I have those marked. Thank 23 | you, counsel. 24 Now, you said there was one big argument that we 25 | needed to deal with, Mr. Marshall? Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 580194 4 1 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Your Honor. I believe the first 2 |kind of like big argument, and then there may still be some 3 | other arguments, but is determination of when the conspiracy 4 |ended. From the Government's perspective -- 5 And may I approach the podium, please. 6 THE COURT: Absolutely. 7 MR. MARSHALL: From the Government's perspective, 8 | Your Honor, this conspiracy did not end until Ms. Mora's 9 | remains were finally buried in the toolbox by the river. And 10 | you can see that part of the reason for that, Your Honor, is 11 [that this plan from the very beginning dealt with them planning 12 |on the disposal of the body. By them putting up the plastic in 13 | the room, they had showed kind of their intent that they were 14 | going to -- part of this plan was to conceal it, that they did 15 | not want blood left in their house, and to then use the plastic 16 | tarps or the plastic lining to then dispose of the body. And 17 | so that their intent from the very beginning included the 18 | concealment and the burial of the body. 19 Their discussions were always like, "We need to go 20 [get rid of the body," the evidence, and that they went out to 21 [the burn site, and then they brought it back, they brought the 22 [body back in the toolbox, and that the -- it's -- there's a -- 23 [there's a -- The only reason it appears that Mr. Dominguez 24 [continued to discuss things with Jazmerae Torrez was regarding 25 [the remains, and that it's at the end of when the remains are Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 590194 gq 1 | finally in the ground that the concealment is over and that 2 | this conspiracy ends. 3 They are still working when it comes to -- you see 4 | the discussion with Detective Marez to kind of conceal it and 5 |hide. You see the conversations that were included in -- that 6 | took place between Dominguez and Mr. Abeyta, that there was 7 | concern that the body had -- was not in the ground at that 8 |point, and further evidence that their intent to conceal from 9 | the very beginning was also that when Mr. Black arrived at the 10 | scene, he -- the back of the vehicle of Ms. Romero's vehicle 11 [also included that they had tarped up the back, and so that 12 [there was the -- that it wasn't just to prevent staining in the 13 | bedroom, but it also included the disposal of the remains and 14 | the disposal of Ms. Mora's body, and that was why they were 15 | going to be transporting it into the other vehicle and 16 | continuing with the whole disposal process. 17 Now, initially, their plan had been, I think, to -- 18 [that it would have ended at the burn site, but because the 19 | helicopters came and interrupted their plan to burn all of 20 |ms. Mora's remains and to kind of dispose of her body up there 21 [at the initial burn site location, because it was interrupted, 22 [the conspiracy continued onward until eventually they had 23 [buried the body in the toolbox out by the river and kind of 24 | near ojo caliente. 25 And so that the defense argument, I believe, is the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 600194 ¢, 1 | conspiracy was only to kidnap and/or kind of torture and murder 2 |Ms. Mora, but from the United States’ perspective it was clear 3 | that they had intended to do more than that, that this 4 | conspiracy was going beyond just the kidnapping and the torture 5 |and murder of Ms. Mora. It was also that it was to the 6 | disposal of her remains to kind of hide any sort of evidence of 7 | what they had done, which was why they also took pieces of the 8 | evidence that had this separate burn site up there where they 9 | were burning the other pieces of evidence. 10 And so, Your Honor, the argument is that the extent 11 [of the conspiracy went from the planning phases to 12 | approximately a week before January 15th, so starting early 13 | January up until the body was buried, as the time frame for 14 | the -- for this whole conspiracy. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 Defense. 17 MR. VILLA: Judge, before I forget, as a preliminary 18 |matter, we did argue that the pleadings that the Government 19 | filed in this case should be unsealed. The only basis they 20 | identified for sealing them was Jazmerae Torrez, because she 21 [was a minor at the time. I think we've all agreed today that 22 [that's no longer an issue. So I would ask the Court to order 23 [those to be unsealed. I can certainly let Mr. Marshall respond 24 [to that. 25 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Marshall? Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 610f94 ¢; 1 MR. MARSHALL: Yes. It was two-fold, and maybe we 2 | did not make a clear argument on the second part. The first is 3 |that Ms. Torrez was a minor at the time and that it -- so she 4 | does have some rights to protection. The other is that there 5 |were -- there are allegations that there's co-conspirator 6 | statements, and so that there's a need to kind of protect those 7 | individuals and their statements a little bit because if people 8 |are deemed to be considered a snitch, per se, that it could 9 | endanger them, and so that we'd ask that these also be kept 10 | under seal for those reasons, so as not to lead to the people 11 [that -- these other co-conspirator statements that may have 12 [cooperated with the Government, so that we don't endanger them 13 | in any sort of way. 14 THE COURT: Anything that you'd like to add to that? 15 MR. VILLA: Judge, I mean, we talked about it here in 16 | open court in this public proceeding who those folks were. I 17 | understand the need to protect them to a certain point, but now 18 [that we're at the place where things need to be admitted in 19 |evidence, I think it needs to be public. 20 THE COURT: I'll take it under advisement and issue a 21 | ruling on that issue. 22 If you'd like to move on. 23 MR. VILLA: Yes, Judge. So I certainly agree that 24 [the -- from Agent Cobb's testimony, there is people who at 25 |1east accuse Mr. Lopez of being involved in the burning of the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 620194 1 |body initially, which seemed to have occurred right after the 2 |torture and the murder, and so to that point, whenever that 3 |ended, which I think the testimony was about six or seven 4 | hours, when they then saw helicopters and Mr. Black shoveled 5 | everything that was left into the toolbox, you know, there's, 6 |arguably, a crime still occurring in which individuals accuse 7 |mr. Lopez. But after that point, there isn't any evidence that 8 |mr. Lopez is involved in putting cement in the toolbox, 9 | disposing of the toolbox by the river, or that he was even 10 [still living at the property. Agent Cobb didn't know, when I 11 | asked her, if he was still there. So I think with respect to 12 [Mr. Lopez, the conspiracy ends after they leave the burn site. 13 And, you know, just to be clear, the Court, before we 14 | took the recess, the Court ruled that you found a conspiracy to 15 | lure, torture, and murder Ms. Mora, but you hadn't ruled on 16 [anything else. 17 With respect to some of the arguments of specific 18 | statements, I think it really just matters what the context of 19 [the statement is, so we could probably just do that 20 | individually. So, for instance, there's a statement we don't 21 [agree with where Ms. Ramos is alleged to have said, "We had to 22 [get rid of the body, so we lit it," and the statement is 23 [written in past tense. So I don't think it matters whether the 24 [court finds the conspiracy's still continuing. The question 25 [there is, you know, did Ms. Ramos make that statement before or Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 630194 3 1 |after the fact. 2 With respect to things that happened with disposing 3 |of the toolbox by the river, that may make a difference for 4 |mr. Lopez, because there is a statement where Jazmerae 5 | supposedly says, "We buried it by the river." Again, that 6 | might be an after-the-fact statement, but when the conspiracy 7 | actually ended is another matter. 8 There's another statement for Ms. Ramos, assuming the 9 | court gets over some of the Sixth Amendment objections, where 10 | she says, you know, she went too easily, commenting that 11 |Ms. Mora died too quickly, she wanted her to suffer, that 12 | really doesn't matter when the conspiracy ends for the purposes 13 [of that. It's just was that a statement in furtherance of any 14 [of these conspiracies. So I do think the Court should find 15 [when the other -- when the conspiracy ended, if there were any 16 | other conspiracies, but with respect to these individual 17 | statements, it's probably less of an issue rather than when was 18 [the statement you made or was the statement furthering any of 19 [the conspiracies. 20 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 21 Did you have anything else? 22 MR. MARSHALL: Just briefly, Your Honor. I have not 23 [gone into the specific statements because I thought that was an 24 [argument just for the general arguments, so it's something that 25 |1 do. The specifics we can. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 64094 ¢, 1 The last thing I would like to argue, Your Honor, is 2 |that it does not -- the case law indicates that it doesn't 3 | matter when Mr. Lopez was a part of the conspiracy. If he was 4 | part of the conspiracy, he's subject to the co-conspirators’ 5 | statements that are made. And that would -- you can see that 6 | in the Government's brief on -- in document 63, we kind of 7 |outline that, and on page 7 and some of cases that talk about 8 |that, that the -- that it doesn't matter -- that he's not held 9 |accountable just for the parts when he was a member of the 10 | conspiracy, but the entirety of the conspiracy. 1 And so our argument was that he was still a part of 12 |it, but even if he had withdrawn from the conspiracy, he's 13 | still liable for the -- or he's still, yeah, liable for the 14 | statements that would have been made as part of the conspiracy 15 |at the time. 16 THE COURT: There's been no evidence presented -- you 17 | can go ahead and be seated -- that he had withdrawn. I'm going 18 [to agree with the United States’ theory in this case that the 19 | conspiracy ended with disposal of the body by burying of the 20 [toolbox at the river. So that's where I will find the 21 [conspiracy ends. I agree with that it started with the 22 [planning stages and ended with the burying of the toolbox at 23 [the river. 24 Now, does that -- does that change anything, or where 25 [do you want to go from here? Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 650194 5 1 MR. VILLA: I don't think it changes our agreements, 2 | Judge, but I do think it clarifies the record -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. VILLA: -- and how we might argue about some of 5 | these. 6 THE COURT: ALL right. So do we the want to just 7 | start with the statements that you haven't agreed to and hear 8 |argument? or do you want to do that in writing? 9 MR. VILLA: I mean, I'm happy to, Your Honor, if 10 |you'd like. I mean, it might make sense for me to go first, 11 [because we're not agreeing, and then the Government can 12 | respond, or I'm happy to do it a different way. 13 THE COURT: That sounds good to me. 14 Any objection to that format? 15 MR. MARSHALL: No, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Villa. 17 MR. VILLA: Yes, Judge. 18 And so, again, I'm working off of that document 190, 19 [the second supplemental -- 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. VILLA: So statements of Ms. Ramos, Al has been 22 [be withdrawn. A2. So we certainly will pursue our Sixth 23 | Amendment argument that any statements Ms. Ramos made to 24 | petective Marez are testimonial and, therefore, inadmissible 25 [because we don't have the chance to cross-examine her. As you Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 660194 ¢¢ 1 |heara from Agent Cobb, she's deceased. 2 If the Court were to overrule the objection with 3 | respect to 2, this is on March 14th, 2018. So it's not clear 4 |exactly when the body was buried by the river. Mr. Black says 5 |three months. This is right at three months. Well, excuse me. 6 | January 15th, February, March. So this is two months. So it 7 | is possible that the body is still there. Again, we're working 8 |off of Mr. Black's estimate of three months, that he makes in 9 | 2020, about things that happened in 2018. 10 However, even if the Court were to assume that the 11 [body is still there, these statements by Ms. Ramos to Detective 12 |Marez where she's essentially saying, "Do you know" -- I mean, 13 | the question is: Do you know anybody that I could talk to that 14 | still talks to her? 15 And she says, "You Know what -- When she was out 16 |here = I had heard she was out here, and I have no idea who 17 | she was out here with. 18 "... she had told me she was in Albuquerque, but she 19 | was here." 20 As we argued in the brief, this is Ms. Ramos 21 [admitting that Ms. Mora was there on the property. That is 22 [certainly not a statement in furtherance of any conspiracy to 23 | hide her body. At this point, you know, the murder's occurred, 24 [so it's not in furtherance of the kidnapping, it's not in 25 | furtherance of torturing or murdering. It can only be in Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 670194 1 | furtherance of disposing of the body. And this certainly 2 |doesn't further that in any way, simply denying that she knows 3 | anybody that could talk to her and admitting that she was 4 | there. 5 Do you want Mr. Marshall to respond? Do you want us 6 |to go one at a time like that or -- 7 THE COURT: Let's go through one person at a time. 8 MR. VILLA: Okay. Sure. 9 The next being number 4, the continued communications 10 | and misdirection. Ms. Ramos telling Detective Marez, I can 11 [message her and see if I can get a response back, or something 12 | like that, saying we haven't talked. I'd kick her in the mouth 13 |if 1 could. 14 These aren't in furtherance of hiding the body. It's 15 [simply -- I mean, in fact, some of these would be inculpatory, 16 | 1 think, if Ms. Ramos were still alive, but it certainly 17 | doesn't further anything. 18 I mean, the Government's argument is, essentially, if 19 |Ms. Ramos doesn't admit we have a body here now, that 20 [everything she says is in furtherance of hiding the body, and I 21 [think that's overbroad. 22 And that would conclude Ms. Ramos. 23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 24 Would you like to respond to Ms. Ramos? 25 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Your Honor. With regard to the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 680194 cg 1 | statements from Ms. Ramos to Detective Marez, our argument, 2 | Your Honor, is that they would be noncustodial and 3 |non-testimonial statements. These are -- Ms. Ramos is not in 4 | custody at the time. She's -- From the video from Detective 5 |Marez, you can see that she is from -- at her doorstep, and 6 | that these are also not statements that were clearly made to be 7 |used in a testimonial fashion, like made to be used in court. 8 Ramos had hoped that they probably would have never 9 |been to court, that she never would have been caught. And so 10 [as it states in the Alcorta case, the statements that are made 11 [to avoid detection from the law can come in as co-conspirator 12 | statements. Concealment is also part of a conspiracy. And 13 | those were in the Blakey and -- I'm not sure how to pronounce 14 |it -- Esacove from the Eleventh and the Fifth Circuit 15 | respectively. 16 So these co-conspirator statements are made to kind 17 |of conceal what they had done. She's misdirecting Detective 18 |Marez in the argument, making Detective Marez believe that 19 |Ms. Mora was still alive at this point. This misdirection kind 20 [of helps conceal that they -- what they had done, but also that 21 [the body was still on the property. 22 The statements that we have that the body was still 23 [on the property are from Johnny Black saying that it was around 24 [the same time of year, which was early April -- I think it was 25 | April 10th, but I may be off by a day or so, from when he was Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 690194 co 1 | interviewed, that it was this time of year. 2 Mr. Abeyta says that it was three -- that the body 3 | had been there for three months, and so that would have been 4 | from mid-January till mid-April. But also we know from -- I 5 |believe a statement from Mr. Dominguez was that the body had 6 | already been buried, to the statements to law enforcement, on 7 |either April 11th or April 16th, and that statement that he 8 | makes that the body had already been -- that he -- that's when 9 | he discusses the statement, which I think is one of the next 10 ones, regarding Jazmerae Torrez having told them that the body 11 [was buried by the river. And so that was a statement that 12 | Dominguez had told Task Force Officer Abeyta on April 1lth, 13 | 2018. 14 And so this concealment and this misdirection is 15 | still part of their plan to -- to kind of conceal and -- their 16 | actions and what they had done, and so that that's -- so that 17 |by her pretending like she's still alive, pretending like she's 18 | going to message her and that she would get back to Detective 19 |marez are all sort of misdirection statements. 20 Kind of as a secondary argument, Your Honor, these 21 [are also kind of nonhearsay statements, so that they could come 22 | in under another theory as well. Because none of these 23 | statements would be offered for the truth, because there's no 24 [way that she could make these statements to Ms. Mora at this 25 |point. These are all lies that she's perpetrating, and so Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 700194 4 1 |that -- so it did -- so other -- in addition to the 2 | co-conspiracy, they could come in as nonhearsay statements 3 | because they are lies and misdirection generally, and so they 4 | could be offered in a second context that would allow the 5 |united states to offer these statements, since they are 6 | nonhearsay statements, so that they -- they would be -- they 7 |wouldn't be subject to the -- to the hearsay rule. 8 So, Your Honor, from both of -- for those reasons, 9 | the United states would argue that we should be able to offer 10 [these as co-conspirator statements as part of the concealment 11 [or as nonhearsay statements, since they are lies and 12 |misdirection, that they wouldn't be offered for the truth of 13 | the matter asserted in those statements. 14 And I think that's it for those two statements. 15 | Thank you, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: ALL right. I will find that you have met 17 | your burden to show that they were non-testimonial and 18 | noncustodial and that the Sixth Amendment issue is not 19 | applicable here as to these statements for Ms. Ramos, Crystal 20 |Ramos. Also, in furtherance of the conspiracy, based on the 21 [testimony that I have I heard this morning, I am going to find 22 [that you have met your burden that these statements by 23 |Ms. Ramos were in furtherance of the conspiracy. So the 24 | objection is overruled by the defense. 25 That will take us to, I believe, Jorge Dominguez on Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 71094 1 |page 4 of document 190. 2 If you would like to begin, Mr. Villa. 3 MR. VILLA: Yes, Judge. Thank you. 4 So the first one is Bl, which is Jazmerae Torrez 5 | describing where they finally disposed of the remains. This 6 | appears to be a statement that she makes to Jorge Dominguez 7 |after the fact. The answer is was it -- "It was there in the 8 |backyard. It's not there no more. But to me, Jazz told me 9 |that -- that they buried it somewhere by the river, that it's 10 | really easy to find." So this is Dominguez describing what 11 | Jazmine Torrez told her -- told him after they had already 12 [buried the body, so the conspiracy ended and Jazmine Torrez's 13 [description of where they buried the body is after the fact and 14 [not in furtherance or during -- or in the scope of the 15 | conspiracy. 16 The next one for Mr. Dominguez is number 5, on 17 | page 7. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. VILLA: So a lot of what's cut out in this part 20 [is -- talks about the plan, which we've already agreed that the 21 [plan and that sort of stuff is admissible, but I think what 5 22 [primarily is concerned with is Boo Boo -- that is allegedly 23 |mr. Lopez -- saying that she took her last breath. So I think 24 [that's after the fact, although I think if Mr. Dominguez can 25 [testify in court that he heard Mr. Lopez say that, it's a party Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 720194 1 |admission, it's not really a co-conspirator statement. But if 2 | the United States wanted to pursue the co-conspirator theory, 3 | we would argue that that was not in furtherance of the plan to 4 |xidnap, torture, murder, or dispose of the body. 5 The next part is on page 8, the third paragraph. I 6 |think the rest of this that's in here is just descriptions of 7 | what happened and what they saw. But the third paragraph, it 8 | says, "DOMINGUEZ woke up, [and] Boo-Boo told him everything had 9 |been taken care of, but BLACK said they still had to take care 10 |of the body." 1 A little later down: "He was awoken by BLACK and 12 | RaMOS telling him and ROMERO they all needed to leave the house 13 | right away to dispose of MORA's body." 14 And so I think those were the ones that really needed 15 | the Court's ruling on the conspiracy. 16 THE COURT: Right. 17 MR. VILLA: I think the Court having ruled the way it 18 | did on the conspiracy, that's one that we would agree to. 19 THE COURT: All right. Specifically which parts are 20 [you objecting to, just so I'm clear? 21 MR. VILLA: So that page 8, paragraph 3, we aren't 22 [objecting anymore. We're withdrawing that one -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. VILLA: -- based on the Court's ruling of when 25 [the conspiracy ended. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 730194 3 1 THE COURT: But the rest of it, you are objecting to? 2 MR. VILLA: Well, the rest of it, I don't think the 3 | Government is pursuing, because it's just narrative 4 | descriptions of what happened. Mr. Marshall can correct me if 5 |1'm wrong. I think those are the two items I identified under 6 |5, where Boo Boo's saying she took her last breath, and then on 7 |page 8, that third paragraph, I think that's all that's in 8 | dispute with respect to number 5. 9 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 10 MR. VILLA: And, Judge, I may have done a poor job 11 [writing my notes, but for number 6, I think that we agreed to 12 [that one earlier, but I wrote down argue, and I may have just 13 | wrote down the wrong word. 14 THE COURT: I didn't mark that as one that you agreed 15 |to. 16 MR. VILLA: Okay. Because it appears like what 17 |Mr. Jorge Dominguez is saying, is Ms. Ramos was planning -- 18 [what she was planning to do with Ms. Mora, the torture part of 19 |it, and consistent with our other agreements, I think we agree 20 [to that one as being a co-conspirator statement. 21 THE COURT: All right. So you're agreeing to 67 22 MR. VILLA: Correct. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. VILLA: So what's really an issue, I think, for 25 |mr. Dominguez is that small, little part at 5 if the Government Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 74094 4, 1 |wants to prove -- pursue the co-conspirator theory, and then 1. 2 THE COURT: ALL right. Thank you. 3 MR. MARSHALL: May I argue from counsel table? Is 4 | that okay for this one? I've kind of spread out. 5 THE COURT: That's fine. 6 MR. MARSHALL: I apologize. 7 Now, for the —- for what's kind of characterized as 8 |B1, the statement between Jazmerae Torrez and Jorge Dominguez, 9 |under, kind of like, again, the theory of the end of when the 10 | conspiracy happened as well as from the Alcorta case, of 11 | keeping abreast of activities, this is Jazmerae Torrez's 12 [statement to Mr. Dominguez that the conspiracy is now over, 13 essentially. It is announcing the final, kind of, part of the 14 | conspiracy, because this is when Ms. Torrez -- and it tells 15 |Mr. Dominguez that the body is now buried, and so she's telling 16 | him that it's -- essentially that it's over with, and so that 17 |it was the final act. 18 But at that point Mr. Dominguez wouldn't have known 19 [that it was over, because the body hadn't been buried at that 20 [point and the conspiracy would have been ongoing. So this is, 21 |effectively, one of the final acts, if not the final act, of 22 [the conspiracy, is her telling the other co-conspirator that 23 [it's done, it's over, and then -- and so she's announcing the 24 [end of the conspiracy. And so by -- by -- under the theory 25 [under Alcorta and keeping abreast of activities, by marking the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 750194 5 1 |end of the conspiracy, that statement should be allowed in. 2 Now, for statement 5, the first paragraph that 3 |originally I thought that defense was going to argue, but that 4 | was going towards the plan from -- between Ms. -- but I'm not 5 | sure if they agreed to that now, but that Crystal Ramos had 6 |wanted to lure her back and everything, but I think those 7 | statements by Ms. Ramos are all part of the planning phase and 8 |then, therefore, would come in. 9 I think, if I'm understanding Mr. Villa's argument 10 | correctly, the concern is that the statement by Mr. Lopez that 11 | he appeared and said in Spanish to the effect that Ms. Mora had 12 [taken her last breath. 13 THE COURT: And where -- And that is in paragraph? 14 MR. MARSHALL: Page 7, the last paragraph, last full 15 | sentence. 16 THE COURT: ALL right. 17 MR. MARSHALL: And, Your Honor, that is an act in 18 | furtherance of the conspiracy and a further -- and so what was 19 | going on, because at that point they had still been in the 20 [midst of torturing Ms. Mora. And so if Mr. Dominguez had 21 | stepped out of the room for some reason and was no longer 22 [participating in the -- kind of the beatings and torture of 23 |ms. Mora, this is the signaling of -- by Mr. Lopez signaling 24 [that it's over, that the torture component has stopped because 25 |Ms. Mora had finally passed away and that she had taken her Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 760194 4 1 |1ast breath. So this is still a statement that would be done 2 |in furtherance of the conspiracy. 3 Additionally, we also argue that this statement would 4 |come in as a statement by a party opponent, and so it would 5 | come in -- should come in under both theories or either theory, 6 |that it could still come in -- that if Mr. Dominguez testifies, 7 | that he could also say that, because that would be a statement 8 |by a party opponent, that it was a statement by Mr. Lopez 9 |during the time in question. I mean, because this is -- this 10 [is the time during the middle of the conspiracy or -- when they 11 [were torturing -- torturing Ms. Mora. And so it should come in 12 | under both theories. 13 And then I believe that Mr. Villa was correct. It's 14 [the -- the problems, I think, that we had argued were for the 15 | third paragraph on page 8, where the statements were -- the 16 | remaining parts appear to mostly be narrative, that 17 | Mr. Dominguez should be allowed to testify to should he 18 testify, because those are all things that he witnessed, and 19 [now it appears that Mr. Villa and the defense is agreeing to 20 [those statements coming in. 21 So I think for part 5 it is just the statement by 22 |mr. Lopez about taking her last breath or that she took her 23 | 1ast breath. 24 THE COURT: Is that correct, Mr. Villa? 25 MR. VILLA: Yes, Judge. I want to clarify, when the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 770f94 1 |briefing was done, Mr. Dominguez was -- had not entered into 2 |the agreement to testify, and so if he was not available as a 3 |witness, I think the Court would have to make a lot of rulings. 4 | Because Mr. Dominguez has agreed to testify, all of this 5 | narrative information, he'll just testify about what he saw, 6 |what he observed, so it is correct that -- what Mr. Marshall 7 | said. 8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 9 As to -- I'm going to start with part 5 regarding 10 |Mr. Dominguez. I am going to find that the Government has met 11 [their burden and that the statement about -- should be 12 |admitted. It talks about the current status of the conspiracy 13 [and also admissible under Rule 801(d), party opponent 14 | statements. 15 As to Jorge Dominguez part 1, I'm going to take that 16 |under advisement and issue a ruling on that. 17 So that takes us to statements from Robert Abeyta, I 18 |believe, starting at number 2 on page 11, if I'm not mistaken. 19 Mr. villa. 20 MR. VILLA: I think that we agree to paragraph 2, 21 |again, just specifically the statements. A lot of it is 22 [narrative that we assume Mr. Abeyta will testify to. 23 But if my memory is clear, I think we agreed that 24 | first box on page 11, where it says Ramos talked about eating 25 | dinner around Mora's body, placed on the kitchen table, that Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 780194 4 1 |was part of her plan, so I think we agreed to that one as a 2 | co-conspirator statement. 3 THE COURT: ALL right. 4 MR. VILLA: Black participated in the planning of 5 |Mora's murder; was Black and Romero's idea to put the plastic 6 |down. I think the idea part, the planning, we've agreed to 7 | that. 8 The rest of it is narrative. Dominguez choked Mora, 9 | Boo Boo and Black cut Mora's body, Jazmerae was surprised that 10 | Black was not there when the murder occurred, I think those are 11 | just narratives and not statements. 12 I think we agree to 3 and 4. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. VILLA: With respect to number 5, we had not 15 | agreed, but given the Court's ruling on when the conspiracy 16 | ended, we agree with this one, that it was made in the course 17 [of the conspiracy -- 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. VILLA: -- because they're talking about Ms. Mora 20 [still being in the backyard in the box. 21 I think 6 was already agreed to. So there may not be 22 [anything left to argue with Mr. Abeyta, other than, I guess, 23 | just the United States agreeing that the majority of this is 24 [narrative and we're just focusing on the statements of the 25 | plans. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 790194 4 1 THE COURT: We're talking about under number 2 on 2 |page 112 3 MR. VILLA: Correct. I think the rest are really 4 | just statements. But I do believe Mr. Abeyta's going to 5 |testify, so I don't think there's any issue with -- I don't 6 | think we're going to have a witness coming in and repeating 7 |what mr. Abeyta said. So as far as his narratives, he can just 8 |testify to those. 9 THE COURT: All right. Anything from the United 10 [states? 1 MR. MARSHALL: We kind of agree that a large portion 12 [of that is narrative and Mr. Abeyta would need to testify to 13 |it. But it -- it sounds like, at this point, defense is 14 | agreeing with most of the other statements, so I think we're 15 | fine with kind of that caveat, that Mr. Abeyta needs to testify 16 | for the narrative portion. 17 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 18 I think that takes us to statements from Jessica 19 | Romero starting on -- Well, let's see. 20 MR. VILLA: 16. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. VILLA: So, yes, with respect to Ms. Romero, we 23 | previously agreed on D2, that first paragraph. I guess for a 24 [clean record, I would want the Government to agree to the rest 25 [of those paragraphs, 2, 3, 4, and 5, on page 16 are just Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 800194 go 1 | narrative and Ms. Romero, we anticipate her testifying about 2 | these things. 3 I think what's at issue for the Court now on page 17 4 |is that -- The first box I think is just narrative. The 5 | Government can correct me if I'm wrong. The second box on 6 |page 17 is: "That they yelled at Mora while assaulting her, 7 | velling, 'You took my money, how could you sit at our table.'™ 8 So we would argue that those are not statements in 9 | furtherance of the conspiracy or course and scope. It sounds 10 | just like Ms. Ramos or others taking out their anger on 11 |Ms. Mora while she's being attacked or assaulted. 12 And then the second statement in that box is: "RAMOS 13 | complained that she wanted MORA to 'suffer' and was upset that 14 | 'she was gone too easy." 15 So we interpret this, Your Honor, as Ramos commenting 16 |after the fact, after Ms. Mora died, that Ms. Mora didn't 17 | suffer enough and she was gone too easy. So that's not in 18 | furtherance of the kidnapping or murder, conspiracy, and it's 19 | not in furtherance of any conspiracy to dispose of the remains. 20 |1t's simply a comment by Ms. Ramos that would be inadmissible 21 | hearsay. 22 The third box I think is just narrative and not at 23 | issue. 24 The fourth box is: "RAMOS said they had to get rid 25 |of the body quick so they, 'lit it.'™ This is written in the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 81094 4; 1 |past tense. "RAMOS said they had to get rid of the body ... so 2 |they '1it it'* Lit," past tense. And again, this is 3 | Ms. Romero conveying what Ms. Ramos told her that's after the 4 |fact. 1t's much like the one you took under advisement for 5 |Ms. -- that Ms. Jazmerae Torrez made to Jorge Dominguez. And 6 |so I think the same argument applies. It's just a comment made 7 |after the fact. 8 3 and 4 for Ms. Romero are withdrawn. 9 We agreed on 5. 10 And then with respect to 6, 6 is, again, a statement 11 | from Ms. Romero about what Ms. Ramos told her. So if you look 12 [at line 6 there, it's "Crystal briefly told me that she 13 | strangled Jessica," and she goes on to describe, essentially, 14 [what Ramos told her, so this is also after-the-fact 15 | descriptions by Ramos to Romero, and, therefore, inadmissible 16 | hearsay. 17 6 was withdrawn, and 7 we agreed to. So I think that 18 | covers all of Ms. Romero. 19 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 20 Mr. Marshall. We're talking about number 2 and 21 [number 6. 22 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Your Honor. Starting on D2, the 23 | first part was agreed upon, so I believe we're looking at two 24 [statements that were on page 17. The first of those 25 | statements -- or the boxes that I think actually contains two Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 820194 g, 1 | statements, so it would be three statements. But it's the 2 | second box. and, Your Honor, again, I think this is still part 3 |of the conspiracy. It's describing their intent and why they 4 | were doing what they were doing, that "You took money, how 5 | could you sit at our table" for the description of what was 6 |being yelled at to Mora. 7 Additionally, these statements could come in as 8 |excited utterances, and so they would be nonhearsay statements 9 | for that reason, that they would be -- because these are 10 |yelling, kind of declarations, that they were being made, that 11 | they would come in -- they could come in under that theory as 12 |well. But they are also -- They're just -- They're still 13 | continuing to describe what was going on as part of their 14 | conspiracy. Their conspiracy began because Ms. Mora had stolen 15 | the money from them, and this is them acting it out, and so 16 [this is still in the middle and in furtherance of the 17 | conspiracy as a description of what was going on while they 18 [were in the midst of assaulting and torturing her. 19 The next part was that Ramos complained that she 20 [wanted her to suffer and was upset that she was gone too easy. 21 |Again, that was still in the middle of the conspiracy and 22 [describes the actual conspiracy, that their plan had been to 23 [torture Ms. Mora for an extended period of time. They had 24 [wanted her to suffer in a way that was kind of painful, and -- 25 [and then Ramos was seeking her vengeance for what had -- what Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 830194 3 1 | had been done, and that she was gone to too easy was -- that 2 |this was kind of a break from what their plan had been. It's a 3 | description that their plan had gone -- had meant to go further 4 | in the amount that they were going to torture Ms. Mora, and so 5 |that was still in the middle of and in furtherance of the 6 | conspiracy. 7 The fourth box down, that "Ramos said they had to get 8 | rid of the body quick so they, 'lit it.'" And I think it 9 | depends on how you look at that -- The statement itself could 10 |be that Ramos said they had to get rid of the body quick, 11 [meaning they still had the body at the time, and then -- and 12 [then Ms. Romero was describing their actions so that they then 13 |went and they lit it. This statement is still, again, in 14 | furtherance of the conspiracy as it was a description of what 15 | was going on at the time. 16 Jessica Romero was only living in that house 17 | during -- while this conspiracy was going on, and so any 18 | statements from Ms. Ramos to Jessica Romero would have been 19 |made still during the time period of the conspiracy and so it 20 [would have been made in furtherance of the conspiracy. 21 Should the Court have any questions about this one, I 22 [would ask that the Court hold it in abeyance and perhaps let 23 [the United states lay some groundwork with Ms. Romero about the 24 [time frame about what -- what would have been said. She was 25 [the one that would be able to describe when the statement was Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 840f94 4, 1 | coming from Ms. Ramos, if there are concerns about that. 2 But her time period when she was still living in the 3 | house was while the conspiracy was ongoing before the body 4 |was -- before the body -- while the body was still in the 5 | toolbox at house, and so the conspiracy was ongoing, and so I 6 |would ask that this be allowed in as a statement in furtherance 7 |of the conspiracy. 8 And -- 9 THE COURT: Let me ask you. Mr. Villa indicated that 10 |ne felt like the rest was narrative. Do you agree with that? 11 [And are you expecting Ms. Romero to testify? 12 MR. MARSHALL: Yes. For the other boxes, it does -- 13 [the -- it does appear to be narrative statements. Other than 14 | the statement by Ms. Mora saying that that's enough. But 15 | again, I think that would come in as an excited utterance 16 | should Ms. Romero testify, and so that those would all be 17 | statements and descriptions that she's making as an eyewitness, 18 [or earwitness, depending on whether she was still in the room 19 [or she was out of the room. But -- And so she would be able to 20 | describe her observations to things that she heard at the time. 21 [so 1 agree with that. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. MARSHALL: And I think that there was -- Was 24 [there still argument on number 6 or ... 25 THE COURT: Yes. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 850194 gg 1 MR. MARSHALL: Okay. And again, it's similar 2 |statements. I think these statements from Ms. Romero came in 3 |two different points, but I think this is similar to part of 4 | the argument about how they wanted to torture her, that she 5 |died too fast. These are all kind of descriptions that 6 |Ms. Ramos makes to Ms. Romero during the conspiracy. She's 7 | describing what she had done and what they -- and that things 8 | had happened quicker than Ms. Ramos had wanted, because her 9 | goal had been to torture her for an extended period of time, 10 |and so it was contrary to her plan. 1 And as you look -- As part of this description, this 12 | is shortly after -- it seems to have appeared shortly after 13 [they had killed her but before -- while the body was still 14 [wrapped up before they had even taken the body to be burned, 15 |and so that there -- this is still in the midst of the 16 | conspiracy. Ms. Romero is still part of the group that goes to 17 | the burn site, and so that there -- This is also a part of the 18 | conspiracy and in furtherance of the conspiracy about what they 19 [need to do and what needs to happen. And so that statement 20 [should come in for -- as part of -- as a co-conspirator 21 | statement in furtherance of the conspiracy. 22 THE COURT: All right. As to Jessica Romero's 23 [statements in issue, I will take those under advisement and 24 [issue a ruling, and we're talking about number 2 and number 6, 25 |as defined. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 860194 4 1 So I think that takes us to statements -- that takes 2 |us to Facebook, does it not, Mr. villa? 3 MR. VILLA: That's correct, Your Honor, just the 4 |march time frame. 5 THE COURT: ALL right. 6 MR. VILLA: As we previously agreed, we don't object 7 |to the January time frame. The March time frame, Judge, is on 8 |page 22 at the top. That long message is actually from a March 9 |time frame that the date was cut off. And then you have to 10 | skip over to page 24 where March picks up again. 1 And I think what the Government will argue is these 12 [are statements that Crystal Torrez, that being Crystal Ramos, 13 | was making to Jessica Mora to sort of make it look like she 14 | thought she was still alive or -- or what have you. But the 15 | statements themselves aren't in furtherance of a conspiracy or 16 | co-conspirator statements. 17 She's essentially talking about how she's angry at 18 |her, and in one of them talking about wanting to fight her, go 19 |to war with her. I would submit, those are not co-conspirator 20 | statements or in furtherance of the conspiracy. 21 It's also not clear when the body was buried with 22 | respect to this time frame. This is much closer to Mr. Black's 23 [general estimate of three months, because now we're at the end 24 [of March, and so I don't think there's sufficient evidence for 25 [the court to determine that they were during the course of the Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 870194 ¢, 1 | conspiracy. 2 THE COURT: ALL right. Thank you. 3 Mr. Marshall. 4 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Your Honor. We argue that these 5 |are part of the conspiracy, that these are still part of the 6 | misdirection that Ms. Ramos was employing to try to make it 7 | appear that she was not -- she did not have anything to do with 8 |the murder, when, in fact, she was the primary organizer of it 9 |a11, and so that this is sort of the misdirection that is done 10 |in furtherance of the conspiracy. As kind of a secondary 11 | argument, other than the misdirection argument that we've kind 12 |of dealt with earlier because it's a very similar argument to 13 [the argument -- the statements that were made to Detective 14 |Marez, the -- some of these statements would also come in as 15 | nonhearsay statements. These are not -- These statements would 16 | not be offered for the truth of the matter asserted. These 17 |are -- So that these -- many of the March statements that we're 18 | referring to would be just -- they are, again, misdirection 19 | statements, and so they could be offered by the United States 20 | for other nonhearsay purposes that -- because they're not 21 [offered for the truth. They're -- Again, there's sort of that 22 [misdirection component and the lies that Ms. Ramos was -- was 23 | making and putting out into the world about that misdirection 24 [towards -- towards whether or not Ms. Mora was still alive at 25 [that point, when, in fact, she had been dead for a little over Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 880194 go 1 | two months at that point. 2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 3 I'm also going to take the Facebook under advisement. 4 I think that's everything. Is it not, counsel? 5 MR. MARSHALL: I believe so, Your Honor. 6 MR. VILLA: I believe that is, Judge. 7 THE COURT: All right. The Court will take these 8 |under advisement and issue a ruling forthwith. 9 Anything else we need to take up today? 10 On behalf of the United States? Sorry. 1 MR. VILLA: No, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: On behalf of defense? 13 MR. MARSHALL: No, Your Honor. There -- We do have a 14 | Lafler/Frye motion and we would like a hearing but -- 15 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I couldn't understand 16 | you. 17 MR. MARSHALL: I'm sorry. 18 We have filed a Lafler/Frye motion, and defense has 19 | also agreed that we should have a hearing on it, but we -- we 20 |would just ask that if we could have that closer to our trial 21 |date, so it's not something that we want imminently, but 22 | something, perhaps, in April or May, to have that -- to have 23 | that hearing. 24 THE COURT: 1 usually do that at the pretrial 25 | conference. Would you like it before the pretrial conference? Danna Schutte Everett official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 890194 go 1 MR. MARSHALL: That's fine with me. I don't know if 2 | defense would prefer to have it sooner than that or not, but 3 |it's -- I believe the Court usually has a pretrial conference 4 |about a week or two before the trial. Is that correct? 5 MR. VILLA: Your Honor, I kind of was trying to 6 | remember if we have a plea deadline in our scheduling order and 7 |where that is in relationship to the pretrial conference. I 8 | know it's been submitted by email to Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: June 9th. 10 MR. VILLA: Yeah. So it seems to make sense to do it 11 [after that -- 12 THE COURT: ALL right. 13 MR. VILLA: ~-- in case there's any further plea 14 | negotiations. I know some courts like to have us do that with 15 |a magistrate, but we'd be happy to do it with Your Honor at the 16 |pretrial, if you want. 17 THE COURT: I don't mind if you do it with the 18 |magistrate. I also don't mind doing it at the pretrial. 19 [whatever is easier for you. It looks like we have a pretrial 20 [conference on June 12th, so that's three days after the 21 [deadline passes. 22 MR. VILLA: That makes the most sense to me, to do it 23 [after the deadline. 24 THE COURT: We can just do it at the pretrial 25 | conference. Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 900194 go 1 MR. MARSHALL: The only other thing was that we just 2 |wanted to notify the Court, the parties were going to work on 3 | narrowing down the witness list. The witness list -- I'm sure 4 |the court saw the list. I believe there's almost a hundred -- 5 |over 150 witnesses. We were going to work on narrowing it down 6 |because we would -- our plan is to try and make it less than 7 | the two-week trial that we have proposed, or the nine days that 8 |we have proposed. So we are working on that goal, and we 9 will —- once that's done, we'll offer an amended list for the 10 | court. 1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. And I do 12 | appreciate counsel working together very much, and your working 13 | together today, and we will get you a decision in this matter. 14 Anything else, Carol? 15 (a discussion was held between the Court and Ms. Bevel.) 16 THE COURT: She made a good point. I have started in 17 | my longer cases, and I'm sure you-all have seen, requiring that 18 | counsel confer and come up with a detailed trial schedule, and 19 | that has caused some confusion and great concern for the 20 |parties, and that's not why I'm trying to do it. I think it 21 [has proven, in the cases I've done it, very beneficial to both 22 [sides. I do want a very detailed -- We can send you an 23 [example -- 24 Did we put one in our new -- 25 MS. BEVEL: Not yet, Your Honor -- Danna Schutte Everett official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 910f94 4; 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MS. BEVEL: -- but I can send them an example. 3 THE COURT: -- a timeline through the day. And we 4 |may want to talk about it a little closer to trial, but we 5 | have -- The Court takes a -- We usually start at 8:30 or 9:00 6 | depending on how much we're trying to pack in. We usually take 7 |a midmorning break of 15 minutes; lunch an hour; and an 8 |afternoon hour break of an hour -- excuse me, an afternoon 9 |break of 15 minutes. 10 And so I like the day broken up by witnesses, who's 11 | going to testify, how long the United States is going to take, 12 | how long cross-examination is going to take, so direct, cross, 13 | and redirect is built into the direct. As far as I'm 14 | concerned, that's fine. We've kind of figured out that unless 15 [we're going past 5:00 -- and I want don't like to go real late 16 | unless we're trying to get it in, and I will if I have to, we 17 | usually are done by 5:30 on the day. Normally, it's about six 18 [hours of testimony a day, is what we're getting in, and that's 19 | pushing it hard. 20 So if you have any questions about that, it's not 21 | intended to stress you out, reach out. We can show you what 22 [we've received, and we're getting ready to put it in our 23 [pretrial information that we send out. So if you'd start 24 [thinking about that. 25 But I'm not trying to be difficult, but it really has Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 920194 1 |been helpful for everyone involved, so ... 2 MS. GORMAN: Your Honor, we have that in our 3 | scheduling order for January 9th. Is that an appropriate date 4 |to get it to the court? 5 THE COURT: Absolutely. 6 All right. If there's nothing else, thank you. Have 7 |a good lunch. we'll be in recess. 8 MR. VILLA: Thank you, Judge. 9 (Court stood in recess at 11:59 a.m.) 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Danna Schutte Everett official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuguerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 930194 o3 1 INDEX 2 | exaurnarron PAGE 3 | GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS MICHELLE COBB 4 Direct Examination by Mr. Marshall 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Villa 21 5 Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Villa 19 . Redirect Examination by Mr. Marshall 50 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091  Case 1:21-cr-00524-MLG Document 219 Filed 03/30/23 Page 940f94 4, 1 C-E~R-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-E 2 | UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3 |p1stRICT OF NEW MEXICO 4 I, Danna Schutte Everett, RPR, NM CCR, CRR, 5 |and official Court Reporter for the United States 6 |pistrict court, do HEREBY CERTIFY that I did report 7 | in stenographic shorthand to the best of my skill and 8 |ability the foregoing pages of the proceedings set 9 | forth herein, and that the foregoing pages constitute 10 |a true transcript of the proceedings had before the 11 | said Court held in the City of Albuquerque, County of 12 Bernalillo, New Mexico, in the matter therein stated. 13 14 In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set 15 |my hand on this 29th day of March 2023. 16 17 DANNA SCHUTTE EVERETT Official Federal Court Reporter 18 Registered Professional Reporter Registered Merit Reporter 19 Certified Realtime Reporter NM Certified Court Reporter #139 20 100 Church Street Las Cruces, New Mexico 88001 21 Phone: (575) 528-1656 Fax: (575) 528-1645 22 dannadawn@concast . net 23 January 17, 2023, USA vs. Mariscal-Lopez 24 25 Danna Schutte Everett Official United States Court Reporter 333 Lomas Blvd., NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 348-2091