Officer Juan Martinez deposition transcript

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION MICHELLE CASTELLANOS, as Independent Executor of the Estate of ESAU CASTELLANOS, Plaintiff, vs. CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER SHAWN LAWRYN, CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER JUAN MARTINEZ, and CITY OF CHICAGO, a municipal corporation, Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 14 C 1841 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) The videotaped deposition of JUAN MARTINEZ, called by the Plaintiff for examination, taken pursuant to notice and pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for the United States District Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions, taken before Kathy A. O'Donnell, Certified Shorthand Reporter in the State of Illinois, at 120 North LaSalle Street, 35th Floor, Chicago, Illinois, commencing at 10:15 a.m. on January 29, 2015. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 APPEARANCES: O'CONNOR & NAKOS, LTD. 120 North LaSalle Street 35th Floor Chicago, Illinois 60602 Phone: (312) 546-8100 BY: MR. DANIEL V. O'CONNOR Appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff; CITY OF CHICAGO DEPARTMENT OF LAW 30 North LaSalle Street Suite 900 Chicago, Illinois 60602 Phone: (312) 744-5170 BY: MR. MATTHEW HURD Appeared on behalf of Defendants Officer Shawn Lawryn and Officer Juan Martinez; CITY OF CHICAGO DEPARTMENT OF LAW 30 North LaSalle Street Suite 900 Chicago, Illinois 60602 Phone: (312) 742-7030 [email protected] BY: MS. JILL RUSSELL Appeared on behalf of Defendants Officer Shawn Lawryn, Officer Juan Martinez, and the City of Chicago. ALSO PRESENT: 19 20 Officer Shawn Lawryn Brian Bruce, Videographer * * * * * * 21 22 23 24 Reported By: Kathy A. O'Donnell, CSR No. 084-004466 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 3 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS 3 JUAN MARTINEZ 4 PAGE Examination by Mr. O'Connor ......... 6 5 6 7 8 E X H I B I T S MARTINEZ DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE 9 No. 1. Photograph 81 10 No. 2. Juan Martinez's answers 82 11 No. 3. Shawn Lawryn's answers 86 12 No. 4. Photograph 130 13 No. 5. Photograph 130 14 No. 6. Photograph 130 15 No. 7. Photograph 130 16 No. 8. Depiction of street 298 17 No. 9. Depiction of street 298 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 4 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are 2 going on the video record at 10:15 a.m. Today's 3 date is January 29th, 2015. 4 the law offices of O'Connor & Nakos, located at 5 120 North LaSalle Street, 35th floor, in 6 Chicago, Illinois, for the purpose of taking the 7 videotaped deposition of Officer Juan Martinez 8 in the lawsuit captioned Michelle Castellanos, 9 as Independent Executor of the Estate of Esau We are present at 10 Castellanos, et al., vs. Chicago Police Officer 11 Shawn Lawryn, et al. 12 before the United States District Court for the 13 Northern District of Illinois in its Eastern 14 Division and bears Case No. 14 CV 1848. 15 My name is Brian P. Bruce, Sr. The matter is pending I am a legal 16 video specialist from LitiCorp, Incorporated, 17 located at 1919 North Milwaukee Avenue in 18 Chicago, Illinois. 19 officer of the proceeding is Kathy O'Donnell 20 from Buchanan Reporting, Incorporated, located 21 in Chicago, Illinois at 450 East Waterside 22 Drive. 23 24 The court reporter and the The party on whose behalf the deposition is being taken is the plaintiff, and the party at BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 5 1 whose deposition -- at who instance the 2 deposition is being recorded on an audiovisual 3 recording device is the plaintiff. 4 Will counsel present please introduce 5 yourselves, starting with the noticing counsel 6 first. 7 8 MR. O'CONNOR: I'm Dan O'Connor. I represent the plaintiff in this matter. 9 MR. HURD: I'm Matt Hurd, H-u-r-d. 10 represent the officers in this matter. 11 believe you got the court number wrong. 12 14 C 1841. 13 MS. RUSSELL: I I It's My name is Jill Russell. I 14 represent the defendant police officers as well 15 as the City of Chicago in this matter. 16 MR. O'CONNOR: 17 here. 18 record, please. 19 20 21 There's one other gentleman I'd like him to identify himself for the Officer LAWRYN: I'm Officer Lawryn. L-a-w-r-y-n. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Will our 22 officer please now administer the oath to 23 Officer Martinez? 24 That's (Witness sworn.) BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 6 1 WHEREUPON: 2 JUAN MARTINEZ, 3 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 6 7 8 9 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, would you please state your full name and spell your last name for the record? A. Yes. Officer Juan Martinez. Last name is spelled M-a-r-t-i-n-e-z. 11 MR. O'CONNOR: Let the record reflect that 12 this is the deposition of Juan Martinez, taken 13 pursuant to notice and at this time by agreement 14 of the parties. 15 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Evidence. 16 17 The deposition is taken BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, as I introduced myself, my name is Dan 18 O'Connor. I'm going to ask you some questions today. 19 You have a couple of attorneys here. 20 partner here who was with you on the night of this 21 occurrence. 22 and potentially one of your other attorneys. 23 going to give you some ground rules so that you know 24 what to expect. You have your You're going to be asked questions by me I'm BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 7 1 If you don't hear or understand a question, 2 you need to tell us that. If you do not indicate 3 that you cannot hear or understand a question, you're 4 going to be asked to answer it and I'm going to 5 assume that you gave your best answer; is that okay, 6 sir? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. You need to keep your voice up because our 9 court reporter has to take things down, as well as 10 the audio on your tie there. 11 break, I'll ask that you answer the last question on 12 the record before availing yourself of some type of a 13 break. 14 applicable as opposed to uh-huhs or uh-uhs, that's 15 helpful. 16 trying to give you a hard time. 17 what your intention is, yes or no. 18 If you -- if you need a If you can please use yes or no if it's If I ask you for a clarification, I'm not I just want to know Are these ground rules okay with you, sir? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The only thing I'll ask otherwise is you may 21 anticipate some of these questions coming at you, and 22 you'll want to jump in with an answer. 23 of our record today, it is easier if you wait until 24 it appears the question is complete before answering. For purposes BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 8 1 If I happen to interrupt your answer, I will be happy 2 to stop and let you finish your answer, okay, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you some 5 background information before we get underway. 6 guess before I ask you those questions, I'm going to 7 ask you this just so I'm clear. 8 you're here to testify under oath; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And I You understand that It's my understanding that you 11 have been advised by somebody that you have a right 12 to plead the fifth amendment should you choose to do 13 so, and you are not pleading the fifth amendment 14 today; is that correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. So you are aware that if the U.S. attorney 17 or the state's attorney decides to charge you in this 18 case in any way, shape, or form -- and I am not in 19 any way attempting to intimidate you, sir. 20 simply want to make sure that you're advised and that 21 I don't have any problems with anybody. 22 that if the U.S. attorney or the state's attorney 23 decides to charge you in this matter, that your 24 testimony can and may be used against you; is that I just You're aware BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 9 1 correct? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. And you are making the decision to testify 4 here today in light of that as well; is that correct? 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 6 Q. Thank you. 7 sir. I had need to have your address, please. 8 MR. HURD: 9 I'm going to object to his address. 10 MR. O'CONNOR: 11 It can be redacted if the judge decides it's necessary. 12 MR. HURD: 13 14 Your background information, I'm going to object to his home address and instruct him not to answer. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 15 Q. Where do you work, sir? 16 A. I work for the Chicago Police Department. 17 They're based at 3510 South Michigan Avenue, 18 headquarters. 19 Q. What -- what assignment are you currently 21 A. I'm a 17th district tactical officer. 22 Q. And are you currently working in the 20 23 24 on? 17th district? A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 10 1 Q. How long have you been in the 17th district? 2 A. I've been 17th district, I would say, for 3 the past -- it would be just a guesstimate. 4 trying to see. I'm I think since 2007. 5 Q. And prior to 2007, where were you assigned? 6 A. I was assigned to the training academy. 7 Q. And how long were you working at the 8 training academy? 9 A. For five years. 10 Q. What did you do there? 11 A. Trained recruits with different procedures, 12 13 14 also trained in-service police officers. Q. You trained recruits and in-service officers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So is that refreshers, basically? 17 A. There's some refreshers, some techniques to 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 clearing rooms, clearing houses. Q. And you did that for the five years that you were there or just a portion of that time? A. I did a portion of it, one year of being a homeroom instructor for incoming recruits. Q. All right. And how did you get trained to be a person allowed to train recruits? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 11 1 A. How did I get trained? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. There was a train-the-trainer segment that I 4 went through. 5 Q. All right. 6 A. I don't recall the exact time now. 7 Q. Was it one day? 8 month? And how long did that take? Was it a week? Was it a What was it? 9 A. I would say at least a week, possibly more. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 And the other four years at the training academy, what did you do there? A. I worked for a tactical training unit 13 training recruits and training in- service officers 14 on techniques of clearing rooms, clearing hallways, 15 clearing houses in a safe manner. 16 Q. And when you talk about clearing rooms and 17 hallways and houses, are you talking about clearing 18 that area with weapons drawn? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. The training of the recruits that you 21 did, what type of issues were you training them on 22 for that one-year period of time? 23 24 A. Oh, what kind of issues? Patrol procedures, crimes in progress, radio operations, crime scene BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 12 1 processing. 2 Q. Anything else? 3 A. I can't recall. 4 recall. 5 Q. Okay. Possibly more, I can't Among the issues that you trained 6 other officers and recruits on, were those issues 7 including when you can draw your gun from your 8 holster? 9 A. Can you repeat that question one more time? 10 Q. Sure. 11 me. 12 13 You tauch -- you traught -- excuse You taught recruits and in-service officers while at the academy; is that correct? 14 A. That's correct, yes. 15 Q. Among the issues that you taught them about, 16 did you teach them when it is okay to draw your gun 17 from your holster? 18 A. That's -- that's going to be based on their 19 perception of when they feel that their life is in 20 danger. 21 Q. 22 23 24 That's all -- that's all the guidance that you gave those guys? A. That's all the guidance? If they feel that there's a threat that they need to protect themselves BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 13 1 or someone else against, then they should be able to 2 use that tool, which is their weapon, to protect 3 themselves. 4 Q. Okay. What guidance did you train the 5 recruits and service officers specifically in regards 6 to when a weapon can be drawn from your holster as an 7 officer? 8 A. Again, if they're facing a threat where 9 they're in fear for their life or the life of someone 10 else, then they have a right to draw their weapon for 11 protection. 12 Q. Did you use any training materials to 13 instruct the recruits or service officers when it is 14 okay to draw a weapon from your holster as an 15 officer? 16 A. There is training materials, yes. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And did you train using those written materials? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What are they called? 21 A. They're training -- training guides. 22 Q. That's what it's called, a training guide? 23 A. It's been some time. 24 I don't know if the correct term is training guides or ... They're BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 14 1 training guides. 2 Q. Is that the title? 3 A. I don't know exact title, no. 4 Q. Okay. You used these written materials to 5 train officers for a period of five years; is that 6 right? 7 A. No. Those were training guides we used for 8 a -- for a period of one year, depending on -- on 9 recruits, where it'd be training for one year. 10 Q. Okay. Did you train the servicemen in those 11 other four years about when it's okay to draw a 12 weapon or not? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And the one year that you trained the recruits, what year was that? 16 A. I'm not sure, but I believe it was possibly 17 2003 to 2004. 18 Q. Okay. So you'd been at the academy for a 19 year or so before you started training the recruits; 20 is that right? 21 22 23 24 A. Sorry? No. I was at the academy -- when I entered the academy, I began teaching recruits. Q. Okay. Let me back up a little bit. You said that you'd been on tac in 17 since 2007. You BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 15 1 also told me that you were at the training academy 2 for five years prior to that. 3 that means that you got to the training academy in 4 2002. If my math is correct, Does that sound correct to you? 5 A. It may be 2003. 6 Q. In any event, when you first came to the 7 academy, you started training recruits; is that 8 correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. Aside from when it is okay to 11 draw a weapon, what other things were you training 12 the recruits regarding? 13 14 15 A. They were training crime scene processing, radio procedures. Q. Were you in any way instructing recruits 16 when it is okay, according to police procedure, to 17 discharge your weapon or fire a bullet at anything or 18 anyone? 19 A. Can you repeat that question again, please? 20 Q. While you were training the recruits, were 21 you in any way instructing them in the policy or 22 procedures of the police department as to when it is 23 okay to discharge your weapon or fire a bullet at 24 anything or anyone? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 16 1 A. I don't believe so. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Have you ever been trained on when it is okay to draw your weapon? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When were you so trained? 6 A. In the academy as a recruit. 7 Q. When was that? 8 A. That was '98, 1998. 9 Q. All right. Before we get too far into this, 10 I want to try and tie up the loose ends here. You 11 got to the academy to do some training in about 2003. 12 We've established that; is that right? 13 A. Around that -- yeah, around that time. 14 Q. Prior to 2003, what did you do? 15 16 17 your assignment? A. I was assigned to the 17th district as a patrol officer. 18 Q. For how long? 19 A. Went to the academy in '98. 20 out sometime in '99. 21 to 2003. 22 23 24 What was Q. I guess I got So I'm going to guess from 1999 So your assignment out of the academy was to go right to 17? A. That's correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 17 1 Q. And you went from 17 to the police academy 2 for about five years, and then you went back to 17 as 3 a tac officer; is that right? 4 A. No. I was a patrolman. 5 Q. Let me try and -- try and tie it up here. 6 Maybe I misspoke. You went to 17 as a patrol officer 7 in 1999, and you spent time there as a patrol officer 8 until 2003; is that correct? 9 A. Approximately. 10 Q. And then you went to the academy, correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. For about five years? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then you went back to 17. 15 16 17 Did you go back as a patrol officer initially? A. Yes, I went back initially as a patrol officer. 18 Q. For how long? 19 A. Patrol officer, about -- I'm going to say a 20 guess for maybe about a year, a little bit over a 21 year, maybe a year and a half. 22 23 24 Q. And then you went to the tac team or someplace else? A. Then I went to the tac- -- went to the tac BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 18 1 team. 2 Q. All right. Aside from your training at the 3 academy in 1998 or '99, were you ever instructed on 4 what the proper procedure is as to when you're 5 allowed to draw your weapon from your holster? 6 A. I believe I have, yes. 7 Q. Under what circumstances were you so 8 trained? 9 A. Probably as a refresher course. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I'm not sure of the dates. 12 Q. I note that you said "probably," and I just And -- 13 want to know specifically. 14 receiving any specific training after the academy 15 about when it's okay to draw your weapon or not? 16 17 18 A. Do you recall ever I can't tell you specific dates, no, I don't know. Q. Okay. Just for the purposes of our 19 testimony here today, I really only want to know what 20 you know. 21 be something, a probably is not really what I'm 22 looking for. 23 know, okay, sir? 24 A. If you don't know and you assume it should I'm just looking for what you actually Sure. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 19 1 Q. All right. The only thing you can tell me 2 for sure is the only training that you actually 3 received would have been at the academy, as to when 4 it's okay to draw your weapon. 5 today, is that true? 6 7 A. 10 I know I've had other training on the use of force, but I can't tell you the specific dates. 8 9 As you sit here Q. All right. Have you been trained on when it is okay to discharge your weapon or fire a bullet at anything or anyone? 11 A. Have I been trained on that subject? 12 Q. When were you so trained? 13 A. Again, I was trained in the academy. 14 Q. Were you trained anywhere else on that subject? 17 A. Yes. Again, I had training. I don't know 18 the specific dates or when, but I did have some 19 training on that topic again. 20 Q. On how many occasions, if you know? 21 A. I don't know the exact amount. 22 That was one of the topics that was covered. 15 16 Yes. I don't know. 23 Q. What's your best estimate? 24 A. Anywhere between maybe three to five times. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 20 1 Q. And were you trained those three to five 2 times after the academy as a result of some 3 occurrence that you were involved in or just regular 4 training procedures? 5 A. Regular training procedure. 6 Q. And what were you instructed as to when it 7 is okay to draw your weapon from your holster? 8 A. To draw my weapon from my holster? 9 Q. That's exactly what I said, sir, yes. 10 A. To draw my weapon, when I feel that my life 11 or my safety is in jeopardy. 12 be in danger of getting a serious injury or possibly 13 a fatal injury, I can draw my weapon. 14 Q. If I feel that I might Is there a distinction between whether 15 you're in fear of a serious injury versus a fatal 16 injury as to whether you can draw your weapon or not? 17 A. Is there a difference? 18 Q. Yeah, is there a distinction. In other 19 words, if you're in fear of a serious injury and not 20 in fear of a fatal injury, are you still okay to draw 21 your weapon or not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What instruction have you been given 24 I'm still able to draw my weapon, yes. regarding when it is okay to discharge your weapon or BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 21 1 2 fire a bullet at anyone or anything? A. I can use lethal force to stop myself from 3 becoming seriously injured or someone else from 4 becoming seriously injured or fatally injured, or 5 killed. 6 Q. Okay. And what do you have to analyze in 7 order to make a determination as to what lethal force 8 is required -- or whether lethal force is required? 9 Excuse me. 10 11 MR. HURD: Vague. Objection, vague. BY THE WITNESS: 12 A. Can you restate that, please? 13 Q. Yeah. What are the factors that go into 14 whether you decide whether it's okay to discharge 15 your weapon, as you've been trained? 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. HURD: hypothetical. Objection, incomplete Go ahead. BY THE WITNESS: A. I'm sorry. Repeat that one more time. I want to clarify this. Q. What are the factors that go into whether 22 you are able to discharge your weapon as according to 23 the training that you've received? 24 A. Again -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 22 1 2 3 4 MR. HURD: hypothetical. Objection, incomplete Go ahead. BY THE WITNESS: A. Again, it depends on the situation. I may 5 discharge my weapon to stop myself from becoming 6 seriously injured or fatally injured in a situation 7 or stopping someone else from becoming seriously 8 injured or fatally injured. 9 10 Q. Are there any details as to what factors go into make that determination per your training? 11 A. 12 perception. 13 danger of being injured or killed and if I can take 14 action to stop that from happening, then I do so. 15 Q. The factors is what I see at the moment, my If I feel that I or someone else is in So there's no checklist of things that can 16 occur that you have to go through before you can make 17 a determination as to whether you can fire your 18 weapon? 19 A. The checklist is my -- if I see the threat, 20 if I see the threat of someone -- you know, becoming 21 injured or killed, or someone else, then I can take 22 action. 23 Q. 24 But nothing more specific than that? There's no specific checklist of what has to occur? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 23 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that each and 3 every time you fire a gun at anyone that you are not 4 only endangering their life but there's a likelihood 5 that you could kill them? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you ever been instructed by the police 8 in any way, shape, or form that if you are going to 9 shoot at someone that you should attempt to injure or 10 incapacitate them rather than attempting to kill 11 them? 12 A. No. 13 Q. So every time that you draw your weapon, you 14 are prepared to fire a deadly shot; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And every time that you fire a bullet, you 17 are in fact intending to kill the person that you're 18 aiming at; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. This is the first time I shot someone. 22 Q. Have you shot anybody else since? 23 A. No. 24 Q. So you've shot one person; is that correct? How many people have you shot? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 24 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. 3 Did any of the bullets that you shot hit Mr. Castellanos? 4 A. I'm not sure. 5 Q. You shot how many bullets? 6 A. Four. 7 Q. And you don't know where any of them landed? 8 A. I know where the casings landing. 9 Q. Casings are the things that come out of your 10 gun and drop at your feet where you're firing from; 11 is that right? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Okay. 14 somebody end up on any of those four bullets? 15 A. 16 they landed. 17 Q. 18 Where did the actual part that hurts I couldn't give you an exact answer of where Can you give me any answer specifically where they landed? 19 A. They were directed at the threat. 20 Q. The "threat" being what? 21 A. Being the person in the vehicle. 22 Q. That person that you're talking about is 23 24 Mr. Castellanos; is that correct? A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 25 1 Q. So you discharged -- we're jumping ahead a 2 little bit, and we're going to talk about this 3 specifically. 4 Mr. Castellanos, you were intending to kill him when 5 you shot him; is that right? But the person that you shot at, 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. 8 And you don't know if you shot -- if you actually hit him or not, correct? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You don't know what you may have hit 11 truthfully, right? 12 A. I'm not sure, no. 13 Q. What were you looking at when you were 14 pulling the trigger four times? 15 A. I was looking at the threat. 16 Q. The "threat," again -- 17 A. Mr. -- 18 Q. -- being more specific, is Mr. Castellanos. 19 That's right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You've read all the police reports, to your 22 knowledge, regarding this occurrence at some point in 23 time, I'm assuming; is that right? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 26 1 2 Q. And do any of the police reports say whose bullets hit Mr. Castellanos? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. Did you put forth any effort to find out if 5 any of your bullets hit Mr. Castellanos? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. I don't think it's important. 9 Q. Did you put forth any effort to see if 10 Officer Lawryn's bullets hit Mr. Castellanos? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. I don't think it's relevant. 14 Q. It didn't matter to you? 15 A. No, it didn't matter to me, but we were 16 17 responding to a threat and we took action. Q. I didn't ask you that, sir. 18 19 20 (Short interruption.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Did you look at interrogatory answers that 21 were filed in this case on behalf of yourself and 22 your codefendant? 23 A. 24 I made? Did I look at interrogatory statements that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 27 1 Q. There were some questions that were issued 2 to you that are called interrogatories. 3 answers filed that are called answers to 4 interrogatories. 5 of those documents in this matter. 6 A. I'm asking if you had reviewed any I know some questions were given to me and I 7 answered them. 8 asking about, I did see them, yes. 9 There were Q. If those are the questions you're And I just want to grab those, and I'm not 10 sure if I put them aside here or left them on my 11 desk. 12 MR. HURD: There's a question that needs to 13 be made to one of them. 14 to Interrogatory No. 5. 15 MR. O'CONNOR: I believe it's answer Before we do that, let me 16 just find out what I have here for a moment. 17 Give me one second, please. 18 stay on or off, but I need to get those answers. 19 Give me ten seconds. 20 21 22 I can't care if we (A short break was had.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You may have some of this from memory, so 23 I'll just ask you in the meantime while we're waiting 24 for this. The interrogatory in answer to No. 4 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 28 1 stated that "words to the effect were stated to 2 Mr. Castellanos when you guys arrived at the" -- 3 well, let me just back up and go to the scene first. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 All right. When did this occurrence take place when Mr. Castellanos was shot and killed? A. I believe it was the 16th of March. It was, like, just before 3:00 a.m. Q. Okay. And where were you when you first became involved in any way, shape, or form with Mr. Castellanos that night? A. I was in a vehicle traveling eastbound on Wilson Avenue. Q. And were you driving or were you a passenger? 15 A. I was driving. 16 Q. So you were already on Wilson eastbound? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. I saw a police report that said 19 that you came off of some unknown street onto Wilson 20 to follow Mr. Castellanos. 21 A. That's inaccurate. 22 Q. All right. Is that inaccurate? 23 24 So how long had you been eastbound on Wilson? A. Probably since Pulaski. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 29 1 Q. Okay. So where did the information come 2 from in the police report that said that you'd come 3 off some other street on Wilson to follow 4 Mr. Castellanos? 5 6 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. All right. 9 You did talk to several officers after the occurrence and gave them your version of 10 what you understood happened that night; is that 11 right? 12 A. Not sev- -- no, not several officers, no. 13 Q. Did you speak to detectives? 14 A. I did speak to detectives. 15 Q. And were there reports drafted based upon 16 those statements, to your knowledge? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you did review those; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. 21 in those reports; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. 24 And there are some inaccuracies You came on Wilson eastbound from approximately Pulaski, and when did you first BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 30 1 2 encounter Mr. Castellanos? A. I can't say with certainty, but somewhere, I 3 think, around Monticello. 4 street that he turned onto -- that he turned onto 5 Wilson from. 6 Q. 7 It might have been the And Mr. Castellanos, when he came onto Wilson, was he coming from the north or the south? 8 A. He was coming from the south. 9 Q. So he was headed northbound on a street that 10 you believe to be Monticello, and he turned to the 11 right, which would put him eastbound on Wilson; is 12 that right? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were there any other vehicles between you 17 And that occurred ahead of you? and Mr. Castellanos's vehicle at that point in time? 18 A. No vehicles. 19 Q. All right. 20 traffic conditions? 21 A. No traffic. 22 Q. All right. 23 24 How would you describe the So basically there's two cars on the road that you see, yours and his? A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 31 1 Q. All right. And now if we jump ahead to the 2 final resting point of his vehicle, how far of a 3 distance is it from Monticello and Wilson where you 4 first encountered Mr. Castellanos's vehicle to the 5 point where he comes to a rest? 6 7 8 9 10 A. For sure over six blocks, anywhere between six to ten blocks. Q. Okay. And how far are you behind Mr. Castellanos's vehicle when he turns onto Wilson headed eastbound? 11 A. Possibly two to four streets. 12 Q. Two to four streets? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Okay. And when you see him turn onto Wilson 15 and head eastbound, what happens next that draws your 16 attention? 17 18 A. He was driving at an extremely high rate of speed. 19 Q. Do you have an estimate as to what that is? 20 A. I would say between 80 miles an hour to 21 22 close to a hundred. Q. Okay. And you base that on what? Were you 23 clocking him with your own vehicle, or are you just 24 ball-parking from experience? What do you base that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 32 1 on? 2 A. Based on our vehicle and experience. 3 Q. All right. Well, when Mr. Castellanos 4 turned from Monticello onto Wilson, at what speed did 5 he make that turn at? 6 A. It was a very high rate of speed. He did 7 fishtail, but he was managing to control that car 8 very well. 9 10 Q. Okay. Did it appear that that car was potentially out of control? 11 A. No, at no time. 12 Q. All right. He controlled that car. So you see a guy turn a corner 13 at a high rate of speed, and now he's going, in your 14 estimate, 80 to a hundred miles an hour. 15 do? 16 A. What do you At this point we're listening to the radio. 17 There's a possibility that this -- he may be fleeing 18 the scene. 19 For someone to be leaving or fleeing or driving at 20 that rate of speed, we're not sure if someone's been 21 shot or someone's attempting to get away, so ... A serious crime may have just occurred. 22 Q. The fact is, you don't know what is the 23 reason why -- 24 A. We don't know the reason why he's driving BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 33 1 2 that fast, no. Q. Okay. 3 been shot. 4 get away. 5 correct? You don't assume that someone's trying to You just don't know the reason; is that 6 A. 7 I'm not sure. 8 Q. 9 So you don't assume that someone's We're not sure why he's traveling that fast. All right. So when you -- when you notice that he's going on Wilson eastbound, how long does it 10 take him to get up to that rate of speed that you 11 mentioned? 12 A. I'm not sure, but not long. 13 Q. So between Monticello and reaching 80 to a 14 hundred miles an hour, what kind of distance does he 15 cover? 16 A. He covered a lot of distance. I mean, he 17 wasn't stopping at any stop signs. 18 through all the traffic controls, stop signs. 19 Actually, he stopped -- he actually flew through a 20 red stop sign -- I mean a red stoplight. 21 22 23 24 Q. He was flying I'm going to back you up and bring you back to my question, if you don't mind. From the point that he made the turn onto Wilson until he reached 80 to a hundred miles an BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 34 1 hour, how much distance did he travel before he 2 reached that rate of speed? 3 A. I'm not sure. 4 Q. Okay. Using blocks or half blocks as a 5 marker, what is your best estimate before he reached 6 that rate of speed that you mentioned? 7 8 9 A. Probably within a block, a block -- probably with a block, possibly two. Q. Would it be fair to state that you were 10 paying attention to Mr. Castellanos from the moment 11 that he came onto Wilson? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did you continue to follow and pay 14 15 16 attention to him until the time of his death? A. Well, there was a time where we did lose sight because he was traveling so fast. 17 Q. You're going eastbound on Wilson, and -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- so is he, right? 20 A. So is he, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 an hour. He goes up to 80 to a hundred miles You notice that. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You're listening to the radio. What do you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 35 1 actually do? 2 A. We try to get on the radio. My partner 3 actually tried to get on the radio to call out, but 4 the radio was being interrupted by other traffic. 5 was just trying to stay within range to keep an eye 6 of direction of the person's flight, the direction 7 they're going in, so in case there is a call I'd have 8 some information to give over the radio for other 9 officers. I Also, going in that direction, I'm not 10 sure if this person is going to have an accident or 11 cause someone to -- 12 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate. I just 13 simply asked you what did you do, that's all. 14 did you do? 15 A. What Well, I'm driving that direction, like I 16 said, in case there's call of, you know, a person 17 shot or a vehicle fleeing the scene at a high rate of 18 speed, and also going that direction in case this 19 vehicle gets involved in a serious -- a serious 20 accident. 21 Q. Okay. So did you speed up your vehicle? 22 A. I had to go a little faster, yes. 23 Q. What speed were you traveling? 24 A. I'm not sure. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 36 1 Q. What's your best estimate? You had 80 to a 2 hundred miles an hour on this guy. 3 know what your car is traveling with a speedometer 4 one foot in front of your face, right? 5 6 A. Certainly you'd I wasn't -- I can't tell you with certainty how fast it was going. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. I wasn't staring at my speedometer. 9 Q. Okay. Well, if you're able to estimate some 10 guy two to four blocks away traveling at 80 to a 11 hundred miles an hour, would it be fair that you 12 could give me a reasonable estimate as to what you 13 were traveling? 14 15 A. Sure. Maybe somewhere between 50 to -- 50 to 60 miles an hour. 16 Q. Did you have your lights on at that time? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Why not? 19 A. I didn't want to -- to cause the driver of 20 that vehicle to become alarmed and he'd go even 21 faster. 22 Q. Is it your understanding that generally 23 everybody in the public is kind of told and taught 24 from a kid's age that if the police turn on the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 37 1 lights that you're supposed to pull over? 2 3 MR. HURD: BY THE WITNESS: 4 5 Objection, foundation. A. We weren't trying to attempt to pull him over. 6 Q. You were not? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. So you were going to just let him 9 continue traveling on Wilson at that rate of speed 10 with no attempt to pull him over at that point in 11 time; is that right? 12 A. At that rate of speed, he was already 13 possibly four blocks ahead of us. I don't think he 14 was aware that we were even behind him. 15 Q. Well, you didn't have your lights on, right? 16 A. Well, he was -- like I said, he was almost 17 18 19 out of -- out of -- out of -- out of sight. Q. Okay. I asked you a simple question. You did not have your lights on; is that correct? 20 A. I didn't have my lights on at that time. 21 Q. Okay. So he would have no way of knowing 22 that you're following him, as far as you understand 23 it, right? 24 MR. HURD: Just to clarify, we're talking BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 38 1 emergency lights, right? 2 MR. O'CONNOR: 3 MR. HURD: 4 MR. O'CONNOR: 5 Blue lights. Right. Police lights. BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. No, I did not have my police lights. 7 Q. Okay. So you don't anticipate that this 8 individual traveling the same direction as you at a 9 high rate of speed would even know that you're there 10 as a police officer because you didn't have your 11 lights on to notify them; is that true? 12 13 MR. HURD: BY THE WITNESS: 14 15 Objection, compound question. A. Again, I didn't activate my lights because of the distance, that he was so far ahead of us. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. It was extremely ahead -- too far ahead of 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. We continued traveling eastbound, and we saw 18 us. So how far did you follow him now? 21 him go through numerous -- Mr. Castellanos go through 22 numerous stop signs without even touching the brakes. 23 He goes through a solid red light, missing striking a 24 vehicle that was traveling southbound on Kimball by BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 39 1 seconds. 2 Q. Okay. How many seconds? 3 A. I'm not sure. 4 Q. All right. 5 go through? 6 A. And how many stop signs did he Approximately -- I can't give you a direct 7 num- -- an exact number, but I can give you an 8 approximate number of stop signs. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. About six stop signs. 11 Q. Okay. So over that six to ten blocks 12 between Monticello to the final resting place, 13 there's about six stop signs -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- and a red light? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. 20 And he went through all of them? And you still didn't turn your blue lights on, correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. All right. You do recognize that blue 23 lights can not only warn somebody that you're there 24 and they have to slow down, but it can also serve BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 40 1 other effects, true? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. It can warn other people that there's 4 something going on and be careful, right? 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. All right. 7 And you chose not to put on your blue lights at all, true? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Did you continue at that same 50 to 10 60 miles an hour, or did you increase your speed with 11 each stop sign and red light that was gone through? 12 A. No, I would slow my -- slow down to get to 13 through the intersections, specifically the major 14 intersection of Kimball. 15 16 Q. When you got to Kimball, was the light still red for eastbound traffic? 17 A. I -- I don't recall. 18 Q. So as he continues to go eastbound, what 19 20 happened next of any significance? A. Well, he -- like I said, he went through 21 the -- Kimball Avenue. And again, we came across a 22 multiple-car car accident. 23 that had been sideswiped and damaged and came upon a 24 resting vehicle that was kind of pinned perpendicular We saw numerous vehicles BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 41 1 to parked vehicles. 2 the vehicle. 3 Q. That would be Mr. Castellanos in All right. So as you're going eastbound on 4 Wilson, did you see any other vehicles actually 5 collide with Mr. Castellanos's vehicle? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So you didn't notice that there was a car 8 coming the opposite direction, or westbound on 9 Wilson, that had collided at some point with 10 Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 11 A. That's correct, no. 12 Q. Okay. So if a police report said that you 13 told one of the detectives that you saw 14 Mr. Castellanos sideswipe a guy going westbound, that 15 would be a lie, right? 16 17 MR. HURD: Objection, argumentative. BY THE WITNESS: 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And did you see Mr. Castellanos's vehicle 20 I didn't state that. sideswipe any parked cars along the way? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So if any police report said that you had 23 indicated to any police officer or detective after 24 the occurrence that you saw Mr. Castellanos's vehicle BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 42 1 hit any parked cars, that again would be untrue or, 2 in plain terms, a lie, right? 3 A. 4 That'd be -MR. HURD: 5 ahead. 6 BY THE WITNESS: Objection, argumentative. Go 7 A. That would be incorrect. 8 Q. It would be an incorrect that you would have 9 10 seen that if somebody were to have written that down in a report, true? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. All right. So all you know is that there's 13 a guy going eastbound, gone through some stop signs 14 and a light, and now you come to the area where he's 15 at a rest after having a collision with a car at 16 basically a T intersection there, right? 17 A. Numerous cars. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Did you see any of those collisions at the place where the car had come to rest? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. How far were you behind 22 Mr. Castellanos at the point in time where his car 23 came to a rest? 24 A. You've got to be more specific with that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 43 1 2 question. Q. Sure, no problem. 3 eastbound. 4 it, right? Eventually his car stops where you find 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Okay. 7 Castellanos is going When his car comes to a rest, where is your car in relationship to that? 8 A. I'm not sure. 9 Q. No estimate as to how many blocks west you 10 are at that point? 11 A. I couldn't give you a -- no, I'm not sure. 12 Q. You can't tell me if you're more than one 13 block away? 14 A. Wilson Avenue at Kimball has a curve. 15 not a direct line. 16 street. 17 lose sight. 18 Q. It's not a straight -- straight So once he -- once Kimball was crossed, you Okay. But once you get past Kimball and 19 you're continuing on Wilson eastbound, had 20 Castellanos already come to a rest? 21 It's A. Yes. Once we got across Kimball and we were 22 able to get back on Wilson, the vehicle was already 23 at a rest. 24 Q. And "the vehicle," you mean BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 44 1 Mr. Castellanos's vehicle? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. All right. 4 Where did his car come to rest, on what streets? 5 A. Wilson. 6 Q. Wilson and what? 7 A. I can give you an address. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. 3317 West Wilson. 10 Q. And you got that from the police report, 11 right? 12 A. I got that from the building. 13 Q. Okay. 14 And do you know what the cross streets are that are near 3317 West Wilson? 15 A. I believe it's Christiana, Wilson. 16 Q. And this is within your police district that 17 you've been working in for a number of years, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 So you're familiar with this area, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So Castellanos's car is there, and it's 23 parked basically perpendicular to the parked cars, 24 right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 45 1 2 A. That's how it's resting, yes. It's not -- yeah. 3 Q. Okay. And describe for me what his car was 4 doing when you first came up to it before you even 5 got out of your vehicle? 6 A. The wheels of the vehicle were still turning 7 at a high rate, so I think he's still stepping on the 8 gas. 9 I see smoke coming from the vehicle. Q. So was Castellanos's car up against a parked 11 A. It was pinned, I believe, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 10 13 14 15 16 17 car? So the front end of Castellanos's car is pinned against the parked car, right? A. I believe the back end was the one that's actually more pinned in. Q. Okay. So when you say the wheels of Castellanos's car are turning -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. --- did it appear to you that they're 20 turning in a motion that would push him forward or 21 backward? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. But they're spinning? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 46 1 2 3 Q. And you know that when wheels spin it moves a car one direction or another, right? A. 4 Correct. 5 MR. HURD: evidence. 6 7 8 9 10 Objection, assumes facts not in MR. O'CONNOR: Well, we're going to establish that. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You've been driving a car for a long time, right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. All right. If you put the car in drive and 13 you step on the gas, the wheels turn and they make 14 you move forward, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And if you put it in reverse and you step on 17 the gas, the wheels move backwards and makes you move 18 backward, right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And you said the back end of Castellanos's 21 car is pinned against a parked car, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you told me the wheels are spinning, 24 correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 47 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That means, by definition, that the wheel's 3 spinning and he's not moving away from that car, they 4 must be going in reverse, right? 5 6 MR. HURD: Objection, assumes facts. BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. No, that's -- that's not correct. 8 Q. So is it possible in your mind that the 9 wheels were in forward motion? 10 A. Absolutely. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there was smoke coming -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. No. 17 Q. So it looks like the car may have some kind 18 And they were spinning, you said? But the car yet wasn't moving? of malfunction, right? 19 A. Extremely damaged. 20 Q. Okay. So the car is smoking, the wheels are 21 spinning; yet, if he goes forward or backward, he's 22 simply going to hit a parked car because there's 23 parked cars on both sides, right? 24 A. I don't know what the -- that car can still BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 48 1 2 be able to turn, I'm not sure. Q. Well, he's in the middle of the street with 3 cars in front and behind him, and he's basically 4 sideways in that street, right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. So if he's going to go forward or backward 7 with his wheels spinning at that high rate of speed, 8 you know he's going to hit a car if the car moves at 9 all, right? 10 A. Most likely, yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 So you pull up to his vehicle, and how far away from his vehicle do you stop yours? 13 A. Approximately? 14 Q. You tell me. If you can tell me 15 specifically, I'd like to know what actually 16 happened. 17 18 19 20 A. Our vehicle probably stops within 15 to 25 feet. Q. Okay. And where in relationship to Castellanos's vehicle did your vehicle stop? 21 A. Our vehicle was west of his vehicle. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 And you are headed facing eastbound on Wilson? A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 49 1 2 Q. And Castellanos's vehicle facing north or south? 3 A. Facing north. 4 Q. So the back of his vehicle, which is pinned 5 against a parked car, is on the south side of Wilson, 6 right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And there's oil all over the ground under 9 the car, right? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. The engine is revving, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 And it's still not going anywhere, right? 15 A. It's still not moving, no. 16 Q. Okay. When you first pulled up to the 17 scene, what did you see about Mr. Castellanos, the 18 driver, if anything? 19 20 A. I observed him still sitting in the driver's seat. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Facing north. 23 Q. So basically he's sitting in the driver's 24 Which direction was he facing? seat facing his steering wheel? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 50 1 A. Facing north, yes. 2 Q. And the steering wheel is between him and 3 north, so he's facing the steering wheel, a basically 4 regular driving position? 5 A. Facing north, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 Did you see which direction he was looking or which direction his face was? 8 A. Looking straight. 9 Q. Straight north? 10 A. Straight north. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Not moving. 13 Q. Did he have his head down on his steering 14 wheel at all? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Where were his hands? 17 A. Hands were down towards his lap. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Not moving at all? And he just looked like he was sitting there? 20 A. Just sitting there. 21 Q. Now, you know from having observed this 22 gentleman that he was going at a high rate of speed, 23 he clearly has had an impact at least with one 24 vehicle at the area where his car is stopped, and the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 51 1 car is racing, there's smoke coming out of the car, 2 and the guy is just sitting there facing forward, 3 right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. It looks like a guy who probably had a 6 pretty severe impact, right? 7 A. I'm not sure. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 Well, when you approach a scene as a detective -- on the tac team are you a detective, or are you just a tac officer? 11 A. Tac officer. 12 Q. So as a tac officer, are you trained to 13 basically observe your surroundings? 14 A. Yes, every officer is trained to observe his 15 surroundings. 16 Q. Okay. But as a tac officer, do you get any 17 extra training as to how to, you know, gather 18 information and get a look at your surroundings and 19 see what might be going on? 20 21 A. No. No, I don't believe so. Where there's different -- no. 22 Q. What's the definition of a tactical unit? 23 A. A tactical unit is using civilian-dressed 24 officers and civilian unmarked vehicles to answer BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 52 1 calls that might be in progress, situations where 2 possibly it's better to have a plain-clothes officer 3 to respond to maybe a narcotics-type event or an 4 in-progress event. 5 Q. So when you get out of your unmarked car in 6 plain clothes, anybody who sees you might think that 7 you're actually a civilian as opposed to an officer, 8 right? 9 A. I do have a police star on my uniform -- on 10 my vest. I do have a -- use a police belt that you 11 see officers in uniform wear. 12 Q. What does a police belt look like? 13 A. It would be a duty belt where you have your 14 holster, handcuffs, magazine holder, radio holder, 15 flashlight holder. 16 Q. Okay. And the star that you wear on your 17 vest, does it have a piece of material that can flap 18 over that star to cover it or not? 19 A. No. No, it's exposed. 20 Q. But if somebody sees you from a side or the 21 back, you might just look like a guy in some blue 22 jeans and carrying a gun on his waist, right? 23 24 A. If they seen me from behind? Yeah, they'd probably just think I'm someone in some blue jeans BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 53 1 2 3 possibly, yeah. Q. Also, they might see you from the side and think the same thing, right? 4 A. Yeah, possibly. 5 Q. And if it's dark enough, maybe from the 6 front they might think the same thing because you're 7 not wearing a typical blue Chicago police uniform, 8 right? 9 A. They may think that. 10 Q. Okay. Anyway, when you come up to the scene 11 and you see Mr. Castellanos's car stationary, 12 perpendicular to the parked cars, do you get out of 13 your vehicle? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 Did you call anybody on the radio before you got out of the vehicle? 17 A. I don't believe so. 18 Q. So for six to ten blocks that you guys are 19 following Mr. Castellanos down Wilson Avenue, you 20 didn't make one actual radio call where you said 21 words to somebody that would have made the tape? 22 23 24 A. We were attempting to. But again, the radio traffic was kind of caught up. Q. Okay. Did you actually talk to anybody, any BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 54 1 dispatcher of any kind or any other officer on the 2 radio, before you came upon Mr. Castellanos in his 3 stationary car? 4 A. I did not, no. 5 Q. Did your partner? 6 A. I don't believe so. 7 Q. Okay. 8 What was being attempted? being said, if anything, on the radio? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Okay. 11 What was Did you hear your partner say anything on the radio to anybody? 12 A. I don't believe so. 13 Q. Okay. And when you are following somebody 14 at a high rate of speed, is that something that you 15 do, is call out and say I'm following a car at this 16 rate of speed, does anybody have any information on 17 that? Is that typical? 18 A. Is that typical? 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. I mean, if you're -- if you're going to be 21 in a pursuit, you definitely want to go over the air 22 and let the people know that you're pursuing a 23 vehicle, but that wasn't the case. 24 Q. All right. Well, you're going 50 to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 55 1 60 miles an hour, you're not stopping at stop signs, 2 you're just slowing down, and you're following a guy 3 that you say is going 80 to a hundred miles an hour. 4 That sounds a lot like a pursuit to me. 5 pursuit? 6 7 8 9 A. That's not a pursuit. Is that a That vehicle is very, very far ahead of us. Q. So is it normal that you would travel at basically twice the speed limit down a residential 10 street blowing through stop signs if you're not 11 pursuing somebody? 12 13 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 14 Q. Go ahead. I can break it down if you want. 15 A. Sure, please. 16 Q. Sure. Is it normal to go 50, 60 miles an 17 hour down a residential street in Chicago if you're 18 not pursuing somebody? 19 A. No, it's not normal. 20 Q. Is it normal to go through stop signs 21 without stopping if you're not pursuing somebody? 22 A. That's not normal. 23 Q. In fact, you're required by law to drive a 24 car just like everybody else is unless you're BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 56 1 pursuing somebody, right? 2 3 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 4 A. Am I required by law? 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. Well, sure, I should follow the law as 7 8 9 10 equally as everyone else, yes. Q. Okay. So if you're not pursuing somebody, you're supposed to be going on Wilson at, what, 25, 30 miles an hour tops, right? 11 A. Possibly, yes. Yeah. 12 Q. Well, that is the speed limit in that 13 district where you've been working now for a number 14 of years, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. So if you're not pursuing this car 17 and you're going eastbound on Wilson, you should be 18 going the speed limit, which is either 25 or 30 miles 19 an hour tops on that residential street, right? 20 A. Well, there's situations where you must -- 21 have to follow a vehicle. I mean, there's -- you 22 have to use discretion at some point. 23 a big -- a big thing that we -- we are allowed as 24 officers to use. Discretion is BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 57 1 2 Q. You're either in pursuit or you're not; isn't that right? 3 A. I was not in pursuit, no. 4 Q. If you're not in pursuit, you're supposed to 5 follow the rules of the road, which means you're 6 supposed to travel the speed limit in that area, 7 true? Is that right? 8 A. In a normal situation, yes. 9 Q. Okay. And if you're not pursuing somebody 10 and you're traveling on a residential street, you're 11 not supposed to go through stop signs without 12 stopping; would you agree? 13 A. In a normal situation, yes. 14 Q. Okay. When you say "a normal situation," 15 you're either pursuing somebody or you're not; is 16 that correct, sir? 17 MR. HURD: Objection, assumes facts not in 18 evidence. 19 people in distress. 20 21 They go to calls. They respond to BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Let's talk about that a little bit. You 22 didn't get a call on the radio to go follow anybody 23 in this instance, did you? 24 A. That's correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 58 1 2 Q. You didn't get some distress call from anybody either, did you? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. So you are not pursuing a car, you've 5 not been directed to do anything, and you're still 6 speeding beyond the speed limit and you're blowing 7 through stop signs and you're not stopping, correct? 8 9 10 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. I'll be happy to break it down. You're not 11 pursuing anybody, you're not responding to a call, 12 and you're not going to respond to some kind of 13 person in distress, as you understand it, by a radio 14 call; is that true? 15 16 17 18 A. I don't know what the situation is in that vehicle. Q. I just asked you a pretty simple question. You haven't been directed to follow anybody? 19 A. No, that's correct. 20 Q. You've not responded to a radio call, right? 21 A. That's correct, yes. 22 Q. You're not pursuing him, because you already 23 24 told me that three times, right? A. Yes, that's correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 59 1 Q. Okay. So you're not -- you're not pursuing 2 him, and you have no intention of pursuing him at 3 this time because you're letting him get further 4 ahead of you, right? 5 A. Not at this time, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 So not doing any of those things, you should be traveling by the speed limit, right? 8 A. In a normal situation, yes. 9 Q. What do you mean "normal situation"? 10 A. I'm trying to see where this vehicle is 11 going traveling at a high rate of speed. 12 Q. So are you pursuing him or not, sir? 13 A. I'm not purs- -- pursuing is if I'm 14 attempting to stop this vehicle and I'm activating my 15 lights. 16 Q. I'm not pursuing him. Okay. So if you are going through a stop 17 sign and you're going at a higher rate of speed than 18 the traffic allows and you're not pursuing anybody, 19 what do you tell somebody who says you're speeding 20 and you're blowing through stop signs and you're 21 endangering anybody who might be in the area? 22 your response to that? 23 24 A. What's If I'm going to stop someone, I do activate my lights. We never -- I never got to the point we BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 60 1 were actually allowed to stop Mr. Castellanos. 2 pretty much stopped himself. 3 Q. Let me ask you this. He If you had turned on 4 your lights when you first came onto Wilson and you 5 noticed he was going fast, it's possible he might 6 have just saw the lights and stopped and pulled over, 7 right? 8 A. I -- I wouldn't -- I'm not sure. 9 Q. We'll never know now, right? 10 A. I'm not sure. 11 Q. Okay. Well, if you were suspicious that 12 somebody is traveling at a high rate of speed and 13 it's this time of day, or early morning, you have the 14 lights available to you to turn on, correct? 15 A. I do have lights, yes. 16 Q. And if you do turn on the lights and 17 somebody's going at a high rate of speed away from 18 you and they don't stop in response to those lights, 19 that is another indicator to you that perhaps that 20 person is either trying to get away or maybe there's 21 something wrong, right? 22 A. Possibly, yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 You didn't use that tool to give yourself any more information, like he might just BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 61 1 flat out stop. 2 3 4 5 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. From what distance can you see blue lights at nighttime in Chicago, the police blue lights? MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You see them all the time. How far can you see them from? A. I'm not sure, but a good distance at night you can probably see them. Q. Anybody who's traveled on Lake Shore Drive can see them miles ahead, right? 14 15 The distance he was in was too far for us to -- 6 7 You didn't do that, right? MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 16 A. Possibly, yeah. 17 Q. And they're designed to be visible, 18 especially at nighttime, right? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. Okay. There's nothing between you and 21 Mr. Castellanos on Wilson. 22 you're the only two cars out there at that time when 23 he turns onto Wilson, right? 24 A. You've already told us Correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 62 1 Q. So if you turn on those blue lights and he 2 has mirrors on his car, he should see your lights, 3 right? 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. I wouldn't know if he'd be able to see our lights or not. Q. All right. hypothetical here. Well, let me give you a You're following somebody from 10 four blocks behind, you turn on your blue lights at 11 nighttime, and there's no cars between you and that 12 person and you're still following him for a distance 13 of six to ten blocks. 14 and you have to pull him over, you would ask him, 15 didn't you see my lights on for the last six to ten 16 blocks, right? 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. HURD: If that guy doesn't pull over Objection, incomplete hypothetical. BY THE WITNESS: A. They would ask me if they -- repeat that question, please. Q. Sure. Could you cha- -- if you followed a 23 guy for six to ten blocks with your blue lights on 24 and he didn't pull over and you had to then pull him BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 63 1 over, you would ask the guy, you saw my lights on for 2 six to ten blocks, right? 3 didn't stop. 4 5 MR. HURD: You'd want to know why he Objection, calls for speculation. BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. I would possibly ask him, sure. 7 Q. Okay. Because you know that the lights are 8 designed to be seen and they're also designed for 9 people to pull over and stop when the lights are on, 10 right? 11 12 13 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: A. I'm not sure if they would have a reason. 14 mean, I don't know what their answer would be. 15 they -- maybe they believe they have a reason to 16 ignore the lights. 17 Q. Okay. Maybe My point is, if you turned on your 18 lights when Mr. Castellanos came onto Wilson, there 19 is a possibility that he simply would have pulled 20 over because you had blue lights on. 21 22 MR. HURD: Objection, speculation. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 23 Q. Correct? 24 A. I wouldn't know. I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 64 1 Q. Okay. Does he deserve the benefit of the 2 doubt in that regard; that if you see a guy going 3 fast, you've now seen him theoretically violate a 4 law, blowing the first stop sign, if you turn on the 5 blue lights, should he be given the benefit of the 6 doubt to have an opportunity to pull over if he can? 7 8 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 9 A. Can you restate that, please. 10 Q. Sure. Mr. Castellanos pulls onto Wilson. 11 You know he's speeding, 80 to a hundred miles an hour 12 in your estimate. 13 view, he's violating the speed laws, right? That would tell you that, in your 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. 16 Yes? That's reason enough to turn on the blue lights, right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Blows the first stop sign, another reason to 19 turn on the blue lights, right? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Continues to speed down that block, blows 22 another stop sign, and I think you said there were 23 about six of them, right? 24 A. Correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 65 1 Q. All of those items are a reason for you to 2 turn on your blue lights and have a right to pull him 3 over, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And he blows also through a red light, as 6 you've said, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that's another reason you could throw 9 the blue lights on, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That would not only give him an 12 understanding that he should pull over -- well, it 13 would. 14 Anyway, let me rephrase it. That would give Mr. Castellanos some 15 indication that you're there and he should pull over, 16 right? 17 A. Sure. 18 Q. Okay. It would also give warning to anybody 19 else in the area that there's a fast car coming 50 to 20 60 miles an hour -- and I'm talking about your car at 21 this point with the blue lights on -- get out of the 22 way and give you some room, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. So did you read at some point in time BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 66 1 that there was a car coming westbound that sideswiped 2 with Castellanos's car? 3 A. I became aware of that, yes. 4 Q. How did you become aware of that? 5 A. I saw the report. 6 Q. And where did that report seem to indicate 7 they got that information from? 8 A. 9 struck. 10 Q. From the driver of the vehicle that was Okay. Did any report that you saw indicate 11 that you or your partner told the detective that 12 there was a sideswipe event on Wilson? 13 A. I don't believe so, no. 14 Q. All right. If you had turned on your blue 15 light going eastbound at 50 to 60 miles an hour, that 16 gentleman that was involved in the sideswipe with 17 Castellanos would also have the benefit of your blue 18 lights to know there's a problem potentially, get out 19 of the way or pull over, right? 20 A. I'm not sure if that would be the case. 21 Q. Okay. Well, that would be the designed 22 intent, anybody coming in either direction is 23 supposed to pull to the right, and it's always to the 24 right so it frees up the middle for you, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 67 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the sideswipe occurred in the middle 3 between east and west, as you saw it in the report, 4 correct? 5 6 A. One vehicle is going east, one vehicle is going west, yes. 7 8 One eastbound car, one westbound car. Q. So they had to necessarily then, by definition, clip in the middle of the street, right? 9 A. I believe the driver of the vehicle that was 10 travelling westbound actually pulled over as far 11 right as you can go and still got clipped. 12 Q. Where did you see that? 13 A. I believe that was possibly in the report. 14 Q. Did you see it anywhere else? 15 A. No, not that I -- 16 Q. Did you hear it anywhere else? 17 A. No, not that I know of. 18 Q. Did you ever see that car pulled over as you 19 went past it? 20 A. I did see the vehicle in photographs, yes. 21 Q. Did you ever see that vehicle as you passed 23 A. Not that I recall, no. 24 Q. All right. 22 it? So you get to the scene now. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 68 1 You stop your vehicle. 2 blue lights on yet, true? 3 4 5 A. You still haven't got your When I get to the -- when I got to the vehicle? Q. When you got to Mr. Castellanos's stopped 6 car, you pull up, you said, 15 to 25 feet away. 7 You've still not put on your blue lights at that 8 point? 9 A. At that point I activated our emergency, 10 because there was a -- multiple cars that were 11 struck. 12 Q. 13 Okay. So once you stopped your vehicle, you turned on your blue lights, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. All right. So you pull 15 to 25 feet away 16 from Mr. Castellanos. 17 up, revving, smoking, oil coming out of the car. 18 at that point in time you decide I should put on my 19 blue lights, right? 20 MR. HURD: 21 You see that his car is banged And Objection to compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 22 A. At that point we see a -- multiple cars that 23 were struck. Definitely going to put our lights on. 24 Q. Any reason before that time that Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 69 1 would require you not to put on your blue lights? 2 A. That require me not to put on my lights? 3 Q. That's what I asked you. 4 A. No. 5 Q. All right. You see Mr. Castellanos sitting 6 in his car facing forward. 7 turned on your blue lights, right? 8 9 10 A. Yes. You saw that before you When we came to a stop, I put the car in park, and I activated the emergency lights, yes. Q. Okay. So before you activated your 11 emergency lights, you come up to 15 to 25 feet away. 12 That's when you first see Castellanos facing forward 13 sitting in the front seat, as you've described, 14 right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. All right. 17 At that point you then flip on your blue lights? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. So now you've got your headlights and your 20 blue lights, and your headlights are facing at 21 Castellanos's left side; is that correct? 22 A. His left side. 23 Q. Okay. 24 at all? Did you use your intercom in the car BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 70 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. A little handheld on my side, a spotlight. 4 Q. Okay. 5 We -- I activated my spotlights. Is that a handheld on the car? So now you've got headlights, you've got a spotlight out your left driver's-side window -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- and you've got your blue lights? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And your spotlight on the left side of the 10 vehicle outside the window, is that -- the handle 11 inside or the handle outside? 12 A. The handle's on the inside. 13 Q. Okay. And when you activated that 14 spotlight, did you shine it in any particular 15 direction? 16 A. Towards the direction of Mr. Castellanos. 17 Q. And did you point it at him, his car? 18 19 20 did you point it at? A. I was pointing it towards the interior of the vehicle, towards him. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 What And did it light him up? So you could see very clearly he's sitting there, he's not moving, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 71 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. How long did I sit in the car? 4 Q. Yeah, before you got out. 5 A. As soon as I put the emergency lights on, How long did you sit in the car? 6 I -- I -- and activated my lights, I stepped out of 7 the vehicle. 8 Q. 9 And you had to take time to turn on your spotlight, right? 10 A. That took not long. 11 Q. How long? 12 A. To turn on my spotlight? 13 Q. Yeah, and focus it and point it at him. 14 A. Click of a switch and adjust it. 15 Q. So how long does it take once you put the 16 car in park to get out of the vehicle? 17 18 A. 5 seconds. 19 20 Approximately maybe -- approximately Q. And your partner, what was he doing when you stopped the vehicle? 21 A. He was sitting in the passenger's seat. 22 Q. And what did he do next? 23 A. He -- I know he did activate his spotlight 24 also. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 72 1 2 Q. And that's the same type of design on the right side instead of the left? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. All right. 5 So it took him a few seconds to get that light going; is that right? 6 A. Possibly, yes. 7 Q. Was that light also directed at 8 Mr. Castellanos? 9 A. I believe so. 10 Q. Okay. 11 So you both get your light on. He's not moving, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. So you have a couple choices to make. One 14 is you can sit in the car and observe what's going 15 on, right? 16 A. I could have. 17 Q. Okay. And if you -- now looking at it, if 18 you sat in the car and you didn't get out, he never 19 would have been shot, correct? 20 A. I don't know that. 21 Q. All right. 22 Well, you're the two guys that shot him, you and Officer Lawryn; isn't that right? 23 MR. HURD: Shot at him. 24 MR. O'CONNOR: Well, let me -- let me object BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 73 1 to the form of the objection because that's 2 absolutely inappropriate. 3 4 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Your understanding is that the only people 5 that shot at Mr. Castellanos that night was you and 6 your partner, Officer Lawryn; isn't that right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Okay. 9 So you and/or Officer Lawryn shot and killed Mr. Castellanos, correct? 10 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 11 Q. Okay. If you sat in the car and did not get 12 out of the car, as one of your options were available 13 to you, you would have not shot him, true? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. You certainly wouldn't attempt to shoot 16 somebody through your windshield, would you? 17 A. If I had to, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Well, as Mr. Castellanos is sitting 19 there in the car facing forward doing nothing, there 20 is nothing that indicates to you that you have to 21 shoot him at that point in time; is that correct? 22 A. Not at that moment. 23 Q. And before you got out of the vehicle, 24 nothing changed, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 74 1 A. Before I got out of the vehicle? 2 Q. That's what I asked you. 3 A. No, nothing's changed. 4 Q. Okay. So if you sat in the vehicle and 5 nothing changed and it didn't change going forward, 6 you still wouldn't shoot the guy, right? 7 A. I don't know that. 8 Q. Wouldn't something have to happen before you 9 opened fire on this gentleman, sir? 10 A. Something would have to happen. 11 Q. Okay. And we've already established that 12 nothing happened before you got out of the vehicle in 13 terms of Mr. Castellanos changing anything about his 14 position, just simply sitting in his vehicle looking 15 forward after being in a bad car wreck, right? 16 17 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 18 Q. Right? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Okay. One of your options is you can stay 21 in the car, call an ambulance, and just observe, 22 right? 23 A. Possibly, yes. 24 Q. And as long as the guy who's in the car BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 75 1 accident is sitting there not doing anything, you 2 don't really have to engage him at that point, 3 correct? 4 A. It would be unsafe not to engage. 5 Q. Well, if this gentleman is a guy who just 6 got in a car accident and he's not doing anything at 7 that point in time, the vehicle is not even moving at 8 that point in time, at least at that point in time 9 he's not doing anything wrong or illegal, right? 10 A. I'm not sure. 11 Q. But the fact is you're not observing him do 12 anything that is wrong and you're not observing him 13 do anything illegal as he sits there in his vehicle 14 looking forward in a stopped car, right? 15 16 17 A. At that moment he's not responsive. He's not doing anything, any movement, no. Q. Okay. And if you called an ambulance and he 18 continued to sit exactly where he was sitting and do 19 nothing, then, as you understand the EMS system, the 20 ambulance would have come out, they could check the 21 guy out, see if he's all right, and potentially give 22 him medical care, right? 23 24 A. The paramedics wouldn't be too happy that we're letting them treat someone who hasn't been BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 76 1 2 checked out or searched. Q. Do you search every person that's involved 3 in an automobile accident before you -- excuse me. 4 Let me finish the question. 5 Do you search every person that's been 6 involved in an automobile accident before you allow 7 the paramedics to treat them? 8 A. No. 9 Q. That's not in anyway protocol, to search 10 somebody who's been involved in an automobile 11 accident before the paramedics treat them; is that 12 right? 13 14 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. Let me -- your question and my answer didn't 17 quite -- excuse me. 18 didn't quite match up, so I'm going to restate it so 19 that it's clear. 20 My question and your answer There is no protocol that you have to search 21 anybody who's been involved in an automobile accident 22 before allowing the paramedics to treat them; is that 23 correct, sir? 24 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 77 1 BY THE WITNESS: 2 A. I don't believe there's a protocol. 3 Q. All right. 4 your partner took from the time -- Well, strike that. 5 6 How long did you say you and How long did your partner take to get out of the vehicle once you put the car in park? 7 A. Seconds. 8 Q. How many? 9 A. I'm not sure. 10 Q. What's your best estimate? 11 A. Approximately 3 seconds. 12 Q. And when you get out of the car, do you draw 13 Not long. your weapon immediately? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you draw your weapon before you got out 16 of the car? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did your partner draw his weapon when he got 19 out of the car? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How do you know that? 22 A. Because I saw him draw his weapon. 23 Q. And how did you see him draw his weapon? 24 Where were you looking when you saw this? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 78 1 2 3 4 A. I was able to see him through my side view. I was able to see, not standing too far from me. Q. When you got out of the car, did you keep your door open or close your door? 5 A. I believe my door may have stayed open. 6 Q. Did you stand behind your door, in front of 7 your door, to the side of your door? Where were you? 8 A. Probably in front of my door. 9 Q. Okay. Have you ever been trained in any 10 police procedure training that when you are going to 11 draw your weapon after exiting a vehicle that it's 12 good to stand behind something? 13 A. In certain situations, yes. 14 Q. In this instance, would the closest thing 15 for you to stand behind be the door that you just 16 opened? 17 A. 18 19 20 If I had to find some cover, that door wouldn't really do much for me. Q. Okay. So the answer is no, you don't stand behind your door? 21 A. No, not really behind your door. 22 Q. Okay. You get out of the car. Now you 23 have -- if I'm not mistaken, you have not used your 24 loudspeaker to contact this person, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 79 1 A. I have not used the loudspeaker, no. 2 Q. The loudspeaker is a tool available to you 3 while you're in the car, or even after you get out of 4 the car, where you can get someone's attention with 5 an intercom on the vehicle; is that right? 6 A. It's a loudspeaker, yes. 7 Q. Okay. And that loudspeaker option can 8 inform someone who either can't hear you because 9 they've been injured or can't hear you because their 10 engine is revving out of control or can't hear you 11 because the wheels on the car are spinning, all of 12 those things can allow for someone to hear by using 13 the loudspeaker, right? 14 A. Possibly, yes. 15 Q. And you did not use the loudspeaker in this 16 17 18 19 20 21 instance at all; is that correct? A. I did not use -- I did not use the loudspeaker, no. MR. O'CONNOR: Do you want to stop this now and we'll start again with the next tape? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. 22 conclude Videotape No. 1. 23 record at 11:34 a.m. 24 This will now We're going off the (A short break was had.) BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 80 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 2 video record. 3 Videotape No. 2 of the deposition of Officer 4 Juan Martinez. 5 6 7 The time is 11:46 a.m. This is Counsel? MR. O'CONNOR: Thank you, sir. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. So we left off at Tape 1 where you have now 8 exited the vehicle, as your partner has also exited 9 the vehicle; is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. All right. And when you're exiting the 12 vehicle, you see Mr. Castellanos's car pinned up, the 13 back of the car against a parked car; is that true? 14 A. That's correct. 15 MR. O'CONNOR: Do you have an opinion on how 16 you want to do this Matt? 17 Bates-stamped 1010. We can just use the Bates 18 stamp if you want. There are a couple things I 19 might show him. 20 you? 21 22 23 24 MR. HURD: These are Does that work out okay for Why don't you mark them as exhibits. MR. O'CONNOR: Okay. Do you have exhibits sticker? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 81 1 All right. I'm going to mark this as 2 Exhibit No. 1 for today. 3 this is Martinez No. 1, January 29th, 2015. 4 It's also Bates-stamped FCRL 1010. 5 So BY MR. O'CONNOR: 6 7 Today is the 29th. Q. I'm going to show you, sir, a picture there. You've seen pictures in this case; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. And you know that there were 10 some crime scene or investigation scene photos, 11 whatever they might be called at the time, that were 12 taken by somebody at the Chicago Police Department, 13 right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. All right. The back of that blue car is 16 Castellanos's car basically in the position that you 17 saw it when you came up on the scene, right? 18 A. That's incorrect. 19 Q. Is that right? 20 A. This is seeing it from the opposite angle What's incorrect about it? 21 of -- this is looking at the vehicle from east to 22 west. 23 24 Q. Okay, fair enough. But what I'm getting at -- and I don't mean to split hairs -- is that's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 82 1 Castellanos's car. 2 car that is parked, and that's in the same position 3 as it was when you arrived at the scene. 4 simply looking at it from the opposite vantage point, 5 right? 6 7 A. Correct. The back of it is up against the You were This is not the view that I had, correct. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. That blue car to the -- yes, is the car. 10 Q. And it is in the position that it was at the 11 But it is the car? scene, up against the parked car, right? 12 A. As far as I know, yes. 13 Q. Okay, thank you. When you got out of the 14 car -- that's all I wanted to show you for the moment 15 for this. 16 17 18 19 20 When you got out of the car, what happened next? A. I got out of the car. I drew my weapon, and I began yelling verbal commands to Mr. Castellanos. Q. And the verbal commands you were asked about 21 in your interrogatory answers in answer to No. 4, 22 which I'm going to mark as Exhibit No. 2, I guess, 23 for today. 24 MR. O'CONNOR: I can make a clean photocopy BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 83 1 of these later, but it's just yellow 2 highlighter. 3 I don't think it matters. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 4 Q. So Exhibit No. 2, you were asked in 5 Interrogatory No. 4: 6 had with plaintiff's decedent, or Mr. Castellanos, if 7 any, and provide the date and time any such 8 conversations and/or dialogue took place. 9 Describe any conversations you And your answer was that Defendant Officer 10 Martinez states to the best of his knowledge he had 11 not had any conversations with plaintiff's decedent 12 prior to encounting -- encountering plaintiff's 13 decedent at approximately 2:55 a.m., March 16th, 14 2013. 15 encountered plaintiff's decedent after plaintiff's 16 decedent's vehicle had crashed into multiple 17 vehicles, he repeatedly stated the words to the 18 effect of, Chicago Police, let me see your hands. Officer Martinez further states that when he 19 Have I read that correctly, sir? 20 A. Yes, that's read correctly. 21 Q. When you say "to the effect," that means to 22 me that you don't specifically recall what words you 23 said to Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 24 A. I said, Chicago Police, let me see your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 84 1 2 hands. Q. Okay. Why did you, in your answers to 3 interrogatories, say "words to the effect of" 4 simply -- instead of simply saying you said, Chicago 5 Police, let me see your hands? 6 the effect of" mean? 7 A. That's what I meant. What's the words "to I said to that effect. 8 I'm not -- I'm not -- that's what I said, Chicago 9 Police, let me see your hands. 10 Q. My question is, why did you say in your 11 interrogatories "words to the effect of" instead of 12 simply saying the words? 13 A. I mean, I'm not sure 100 percent that I 14 said -- I mean, I could have said something slightly 15 different, but I -- it was to that effect. 16 17 Q. Okay. question. So that goes back to my original You may have said different words, true? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. So you don't specifically recall as you sit 20 here today what specific words you said to 21 Mr. Castellanos? 22 A. I can't tell you with a hundred percent 23 certainty that that was the exact things that I said, 24 but -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 85 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. -- it was to that effect, yes. 3 Q. So not saying with 100 percent certainty, is 4 it a true statement that you cannot tell the ladies 5 and gentlemen of this jury specifically what words 6 you said to Mr. Castellanos? 7 8 9 A. Yeah, I don't -- I can't say with a hundred percent certainty. Q. Thank you, sir. 10 MR. HURD: I appreciate that. I just want to amend answer to 11 No. 5 where it says Detective Hansson. 12 should say Detective Spain, not Hansson. 13 MR. O'CONNOR: 14 MR. HURD: 15 MR. O'CONNOR: It Can you spell that? S-p-a-i-n. Do you want me to just write 16 Spain instead of Hansson here so we don't forget 17 this? Is that -- 18 MR. HURD: 19 MR. O'CONNOR: 20 MR. HURD: 21 MR. O'CONNOR: 22 Sure. -- agreeable? Yeah. All right. So you're saying S-p-a-i-n? 23 MR. HURD: Yeah. 24 MR. O'CONNOR: And I'm just going to put in BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 86 1 parentheses Hansson, and now we have Spain 2 above. 3 4 Is that agreeable? MR. HURD: Yeah. It shouldn't be Hansson at all. 5 MR. O'CONNOR: Okay. I just want to know 6 what was previously there, and now we know that 7 there's a change, all right? 8 9 MR. HURD: during Lawryn's dep at the -- 10 11 And in Lawryn's -- we can do this MR. O'CONNOR: It's no problem. 12 MR. HURD: 13 MR. O'CONNOR: 14 But he's never seen Lawryn's. MR. HURD: 16 MR. O'CONNOR: MR. HURD: 22 So we'll do that right now. And we're going to attach the exhibits to the transcript. 20 21 Okay. So this is No. 3, Martinez. 18 19 I'm going to show him Lawryn's. 15 17 We'll do Lawryn's right now. MR. O'CONNOR: That's totally fine. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. So Exhibit No. 3 for today's purposes are 23 the answers to interrogatories of your codefendant, 24 Officer Martinez -- excuse me -- Officer Lawryn, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 87 1 which are here. 2 I've marked that, sir. 3 Lawryn's answers to plaintiff's interrogatories; is 4 that correct? 5 A. You can see that And these are the -- Officer That's what it states? Yes. 6 7 This is Exhibit 3. MR. O'CONNOR: Okay. Matt, I'm assuming you want to make that same change here? 8 MR. HURD: 9 Interrogatory No. 5. 10 to Detective Spain. 11 No, I want to make the change to MR. O'CONNOR: He doesn't recall speaking Okay. So in this particular 12 Exhibit No. 3, Item No. 2 in response to Answer 13 No. 5, it states for the record Detective Spain 14 at Illinois Masonic, and you want to eliminate 15 that? 16 17 18 MR. HURD: Yes. He doesn't recall speaking to anybody. MR. O'CONNOR: All right. Well, I'll -- 19 we've said that for the record. 20 in here just so I don't have to mark it up 21 because -- 22 MR. HURD: 23 MR. O'CONNOR: 24 I'll leave it Sure. -- I'm not sure how to. So we'll ask him about that at some point when we BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 88 1 2 talk to him. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 3 Q. However, I do want to direct your attention, 4 Mr. Martinez, to Interrogatory Answer No. 4, which is 5 the same one that I talked to you about in your own 6 answers. 7 before, and Officer Lawryn's response is: 8 Officer Lawryn states that to the best of his 9 knowledge he had not -- he had not had any And it's the same question that was stated Defendant 10 conversations with plaintiff's decedent prior to 11 encountering plaintiff's decedent at approximately 12 2:55 a.m. on March 16, 2013. 13 states that when he encountered plaintiff's decedent 14 after plaintiff's decedent's vehicle had crashed into 15 multiple vehicles, he repeatedly stated words to the 16 effect of, Chicago Police, let me see your hands. 17 18 Officer Lawryn further That is verbatim the same answer that you had in yours; is that right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. And you don't know exactly what you 21 said. I'm assuming you know even less about what 22 Officer Lawryn said, right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Okay. So whether or not somebody BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 89 1 specifically said let me see your hands, using those 2 specific words, you cannot say that with certainty as 3 you sit here today; is that true? 4 A. That's true. 5 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that from a 6 person's perspective who is not a police officer, 7 that if some police officer is yelling at them -- and 8 I'm assuming you were yelling, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. 11 Because the engine is revving, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. It's kind of loud, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Wheels are spinning, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. If you're yelling something at 18 somebody, that if you don't specifically tell them 19 what to do, it's difficult for them to follow a 20 command, especially when there's stuff going on 21 there, lights in their face and they just got in a 22 bad accident, right? 23 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 90 1 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 2 Q. Right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. So if you don't specifically recall telling 5 someone specifically to show me your hands or hear 6 anybody else say that, then if the guy who's sitting 7 in the car doesn't show you his hands, it may be 8 because he wasn't specifically instructed to do so, 9 right? 10 11 12 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation, calls for speculation. BY THE WITNESS: 13 A. He was given instructions. 14 Q. If the gentleman was not given a specific 15 instruction to show his hands, it's possibly that he 16 didn't because he wasn't given such an instruction, 17 right? 18 A. That's an if. 19 Q. That's what I'm asking you, sir. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Possibly, yes. And not knowing what specific 22 instructions were given to Mr. Castellanos, we don't 23 know if he didn't follow them because you don't 24 specifically recall what they were, true? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 91 1 2 3 A. I don't recall what they were specifically, Q. And not knowing what they were specifically, yes. 4 you can't tell us that he didn't follow an 5 instruction because you don't know what you told him 6 specifically, true? 7 MR. HURD: 8 Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 9 Q. Right? 10 A. Possibly, yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, we've talked about all the words 12 that you do remember, if any, which you don't 13 remember specifically any of them, up until the time 14 of the shooting, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. So basically you can't tell us anything that 17 you said to Mr. Castellanos or that he said to you or 18 anything that Officer Lawryn said to Castellanos or 19 he said to Lawryn as you sit here today, right? 20 A. Can you restate that question? 21 Q. Yeah. You can't tell us what dialogue 22 occurred between you and Officer Lawryn and 23 Mr. Castellanos as you sit here today. 24 established that, right? We've BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 92 1 A. Specifics, no. 2 Q. Okay. Now, you saw some of the reports that 3 indicated that -- I'm going to jump ahead for just a 4 moment -- that Officer Lawryn handcuffed 5 Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 6 A. I'm sorry. Did I -- 7 Q. You saw some reports -- you said you read 8 the reports in this case -- that indicated Officer 9 Lawryn ended up handcuffing Mr. Castellanos, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Okay. And you saw in those reports that 12 Mr. Lawryn indicated to a detective that 13 Mr. Castellanos was still alive at that time because 14 he could see and hear him breathing, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. So you would agree with me that while 17 Mr. Castellanos was sitting there being handcuffed, 18 that he would be in a considerable amount of pain and 19 experiencing suffering having three bullet holes in 20 him and still being able to breathe, right? 21 22 23 24 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. How would he know? BY THE WITNESS: A. I wouldn't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 93 1 2 Q. just a moment. 3 4 What efforts -- I'm going to jump ahead for What efforts were undertaken to provide Mr. Castellanos any first aid? 5 A. 6 an ambulance. 7 Q. 8 9 I immediately got on the radio and asked for That was after you shot him, right? MR. HURD: Objection, shot at him. BY THE WITNESS: 10 A. After there were shots fired, yes. 11 Q. Well, you did -- somebody shot him, that 12 somebody being you or Officer Lawryn, and hit him 13 with bullets and he ended up dying, right? 14 A. We were providing first aid, yes. 15 Q. What first aid did you provide? 16 A. We were calling for first aid. 17 We were calling for an ambulance. 18 Q. Okay. You provided no first aid -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- yourself? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Officer Lawryn provided no first aid? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Okay. Did you ever call for an ambulance on BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 94 1 the radio before you got out of the car? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. 4 ten blocks. 5 your partner to anybody at dispatch or any other 6 police in the area. Now, you followed this guy for six to There's no radio communication by you or Is that correct so far? 7 A. So far, yes. 8 Q. There's codes that you can use on the radio 9 to tell everybody else basically to be quiet for a 10 moment so that you can inquire or give information, 11 right? 12 A. I don't know what code you're referring to. 13 Q. Have you ever had anything on the radio 14 where you can say some phrase which -- basically hold 15 all radio traffic that's not necessary so that you 16 can provide information or request information that's 17 essential and immediate? 18 A. You can call for an emergency. 19 Q. Okay. Somebody going 80 to a hundred miles 20 an hour through a couple stop signs, through maybe as 21 many as six stop signs, through a red light, and 22 ultimately crashing into cars where the car stops 23 perpendicular to those cars, does that qualify as an 24 emergency? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 95 1 A. Depends. 2 Q. Tell me why it's not an emergency. 3 A. I'm not sure that -- the entire situation 4 5 6 7 that's going on in that vehicle. Q. crash, anyway? A. 8 9 10 Eventu- -MR. HURD: Objection. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. 11 12 Well, you know a guy got in a major car Pardon me? MR. HURD: Objection, argumentative. BY THE WITNESS: 13 A. Eventually he got into an accident. 14 Q. Okay. And you did not pick up the radio and 15 your partner did not pick up the radio to call for 16 ambulance assistance or backup at that point before 17 you got out of the car, right? 18 A. Like I mentioned earlier, the radio traffic 19 was on the air. 20 radio. It was hard for us to get on the 21 Q. What was going on on the radio? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 24 There was radio traffic at the time we were trying to get on the radio. Q. What did you hear? While you're listening BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 96 1 for six to ten blocks of that radio traffic, what did 2 you hear? 3 4 A. Radio traffic. I wasn't sure exactly of the specifics of the radio transmission. I wasn't sure. 5 Q. And this is about 5 to 3:00 in the morning? 6 A. 5 to 3:00 in the morning? 7 Q. 2:55 a.m., is that right? 8 A. Around that time, yes. 9 Q. That's 5 minutes before 3:00 in the morning. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And you're saying there was so much radio 12 traffic for that six to ten blocks that you guys 13 couldn't get a word in edgewise? 14 A. Not at the time that we attempted to. 15 Q. And it was only one occasion when it was 16 attempted, when he first came onto Wilson? 17 A. I'm not sure. 18 Q. All right. 19 You don't know of any other attempts that were made, correct? 20 A. I'm not sure, no. 21 Q. All right. And when you came to the area 22 where Mr. Castellanos's vehicle was stopped, did you 23 pick up the radio and attempt to make any 24 communication at that time? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 97 1 A. When we came upon the vehicle? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Did your partner pick up the radio at 5 that time and try to make a communication to EMS or 6 other police? 7 A. I'm not sure. 8 Q. If you come upon a car accident where the 9 cars have now come to rest and clearly it's been a 10 big accident and there's somebody sitting in the car, 11 you know from your training as a police officer that 12 odds are that person should be checked out at a 13 minimum with an ambulance, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. So you got a guy who's sitting in the 16 car doing nothing, facing forward, not making any 17 gestures, not attempting to get out of the car, had a 18 major accident, and before you get out of the car and 19 draw your weapons on him nobody attempts to call for 20 an ambulance that there's been an accident. 21 a correct statement? 22 A. That's a correct statement. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Is that Is it possible in your mind that this gentleman may have just been injured after having a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 98 1 big accident and been in need of medical attention? 2 A. I wouldn't know. 3 Q. And you wouldn't know because you didn't 4 inquire, do you need help, are you okay? 5 correct so far? 6 7 8 9 A. Is that We haven't had a chance to make communication. Q. Okay. Well, when you get out of the car, you can say, are you okay, sir? That's one of the 10 things that's available to you in your communication 11 toolbox, right? 12 A. We attempted to make communication. 13 Q. Well, we already know you don't know what 14 you said, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. But you can as a police officer 17 coming upon an accident say, are you okay, sir, or 18 ma'am or whoever is involved, right? 19 A. Possibly you can say that, yeah. 20 Q. By doing that you may find out that this 21 person is able to communicate. 22 look for, right? That's one thing you 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. You may find out that they're injured BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 99 1 because it's difficult for them to communicate, 2 right? 3 4 MR. HURD: Objection, speculation. BY THE WITNESS: 5 A. Possibly, yes. 6 Q. That's one of the things you're trained to 7 do, right, find out if somebody's injured, see if 8 they need help, because it's also to serve and 9 protect people, right? 10 A. Sure. 11 Q. Okay. 12 So part of your job is, when you see a citizen who hasn't done anything -- Strike that. 13 Part of your job is, when you see a person 14 who needs medical attention, as an officer you're 15 supposed to take some steps to get them medical 16 attention, see if they're okay, see what they might 17 need, and get an ambulance, right? 18 A. Well, we have to secure the situation. 19 don't know what we have here. 20 situation. 21 Q. 22 situation -- 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. -- right? We This can be a hostile It could be -- could be a nonhostile BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 100 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Okay. And all you have to do to find out 3 some of that information is ask, are you okay, sir, 4 right? 5 A. Try to communicate, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And if you asked Mr. Castellanos if 7 he was okay, there's a potential he could have said 8 I'm injured, right? 9 MR. HURD: 10 BY THE WITNESS: 11 A. Possibly. 12 Q. Okay. 13 Objection, speculation. But you didn't give him that opportunity, true? 14 A. We tried to communicate with no response. 15 Q. Okay. 16 You don't know what your communication was, as we've talked about, correct? 17 A. It was effectively let me see your hands. 18 Q. Your communication in talking to 19 Mr. Castellanos, you cannot tell me that you ever 20 asked him if he was okay or needed assistance; is 21 that a true statement? 22 A. Pretty much, yes. 23 Q. So anything else that you might have said to 24 him aside from that, it would be a nonresponsive BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 101 1 answer if he were to say I need help or I'm hurt, 2 because you don't remember asking him anything like 3 that, right? 4 A. 5 6 I would expect him to respond in some kind of manner if he was hurt. Q. Well, easy way to ask somebody when you're a 7 police officer and getting information is to ask a 8 direct question, right? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. You want a direct answer, right? 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. Okay. One of the easy questions is, are you 13 hurt, do you need an ambulance, right? 14 of your training actually too, isn't it? 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. Okay. 17 That's part And specifically that training is for motor vehicle accidents, among other things, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Having not asked Mr. Castellanos if 20 he was injured or needed an ambulance, as you sit 21 here today, you don't know if he was injured or if he 22 needed an ambulance as result of that impact, true? 23 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 102 1 BY THE WITNESS: 2 A. I'm not sure. 3 Q. Okay. If you ask somebody a question and 4 they give you an answer, you are also evaluating that 5 the person may be able to communicate in a passive 6 manner, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 And that's a good thing when you're a police officer, that somebody answers you in a passive manner, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You've also come up on accident scenes, I'm 13 assuming, in your experience where you might have 14 actually asked the question do you need help or do 15 you need an ambulance or are you injured, and 16 somebody just isn't able to answer because they're 17 that badly hurt; is that true? 18 A. Possibly. 19 Q. Okay. So for instance, if somebody is going 20 80 to a hundred miles an hour and they hit a car head 21 on, unless they got an air bag they're probably 22 getting a chestful or a face full of steering wheel, 23 right? 24 A. I wouldn't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 103 1 2 Q. Okay. In your experience have you come on car accidents before? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Have you seen people that have hit the 5 steering wheel when they get into a collision with 6 something, whether it's a car or a wall or some other 7 object? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And have you experienced in your many years 10 as a police officer that sometimes that causes 11 somebody a bruise on their chest, for instance? 12 A. Sometimes, yes. 13 Q. And in this instance you saw the photos of 14 Mr. Castellanos. He's got a big mark on his chest 15 like a steering wheel, right? 16 A. I don't recall seeing that. 17 Q. All right. Well, if Mr. Castellanos took a 18 steering wheel to the chest, that could affect his 19 ability to communicate; would you agree? 20 A. Possibly. 21 Q. Okay. So if he can't answer any question, 22 whatever that might be, that may not be his fault in 23 any way, shape, or form; would you agree? 24 A. Possibly, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 104 1 Q. And if Mr. Castellanos simply needs 2 assistance or medical attention, if you afford him 3 the opportunity to answer that question, you might 4 simply learn he's injured, he needs some help, 5 there's no other issue here, call an ambulance, 6 right? 7 A. It's a possibility. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And to your knowledge, he was not given that opportunity, true? 10 A. We gave an opportunity to respond. 11 Q. We already established that you didn't ask 12 him are you okay, do you need help, or anything like 13 that; isn't that true, sir? 14 A. That's true. 15 Q. All right. Officer Lawryn didn't say 16 anything else to Mr. Castellanos while you were at 17 the scene that you haven't already told us about; 18 isn't that right? 19 A. Not that I'm aware of. 20 Q. I'm going to jump ahead for just a moment 21 22 here. Maybe I'm not. All right. One second, please. Interrogatory Answer No. 5, the 23 one that your counsel just amended, it talks about 24 describing conversations you had with anybody besides BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 105 1 Mr. Castellanos, which you've told us you don't know 2 what you said, regarding the source of nature -- 3 source or nature of -- 4 5 MR. HURD: BY MR. O'CONNOR: 6 Q. 7 8 Objection, compound. -- Mr. Castellanos's -MR. HURD: Compound nature of the question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 9 Q. -- injuries or about the incident described 10 in the plaintiff's complaint, and please state with 11 whom the conversation was and where and at what time 12 and date such conversations took place. 13 You have answered that question, and it's in 14 response to No. 5. And there was one amendment that 15 you're making that takes out the one detective and 16 replaces it with Detective Spain; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Otherwise those are the people you talked 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you ever talk to an FOP or Fraternal 19 to? 22 Order of Police representative by the name of Pat 23 Camden about this occurrence? 24 A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 106 1 2 Q. Did you ever see the news items on TV about this occurrence? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever see any newspaper articles 5 about this occurrence? 6 A. No. 7 Q. All right. And I'm not trying to be a 8 wiseguy, but I want to make sure that I understand 9 you. You're involved in a fatal shooting, you said 10 it's the first time. You didn't watch the news or 11 read the newspapers about this occurrence; is that 12 what you're telling us? 13 A. Pretty much. 14 Q. Well, it's either yes or no or -- "pretty 15 much," I don't understand "pretty much." 16 have a real answer. 17 A. I need to I did see in the hospital the day of the -- 18 when we were treated in the hospital for our 19 injuries, they had a minor -- they had some 20 information on the TV. 21 extent of it. 22 Q. But that's pretty much the And did you see the Fraternal Order of 23 Police guy with the white hair who was out there on 24 the TV talking about you guys? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 107 1 A. I did not see it. 2 Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding where 3 the Fraternal Order of Police gets their information 4 before they put it on the media? 5 A. I do not. 6 Q. All right. 7 So do you know of Mr. Lawryn talking to Mr. Camden at the scene? 8 A. I have no knowledge. 9 Q. Do you know of Mr. Lawryn talking to 10 Mr. Camden about anything? 11 A. I have no knowledge about that. 12 Q. Detective Hansson being in this answer to 13 interrogatory, do you know how he got there? 14 A. How he got to ... 15 Q. How he got in the answers. 16 A. How he got the answers? 17 Q. How -- let me rephrase the question. 18 Your initial answer says Detective Hansson 19 was the guy that you spoke to at Illinois Masonic. 20 Do you know how that name got into these answers? 21 A. I have no idea. 22 Q. All right. 23 before? 24 A. Had you ever met Detective Spain Before this incident? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 108 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. 4 And what was your conversation with Detective Spain? 5 A. At what point? 6 Q. Well, how many times did you talk to him? 7 A. I don't know, maybe a few times. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I believe I first talked to him probably in 10 And when did you first talk to him? a vehicle coming back from the hospital, possibly. 11 Q. All right. Did you observe the vehicle when 12 you were putting the lights on the vehicle to see 13 what the condition of the vehicle was to see if it 14 was drivable? 15 A. Did I see the condition of the vehicle? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. I saw the vehicle was damaged, yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 you observed. 20 A. Describe for me what the damage was I saw that the tires were spinning at the 21 time. The back had damage. 22 saw smoke coming from the vehicle. 23 Q. 24 engine? The side had damage. I Did you see the oil on the street from the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 109 1 A. No, I did not see that. 2 Q. Okay. 3 You've seen that in the photographs anyway later, right? 4 A. I don't think I saw that. 5 Q. Okay. 6 7 8 Which wheels were spinning, front or back? A. I believe it was the back wheels were spinning. 9 Q. All four tires were in good shape otherwise? 10 A. I don't know for a fact. 11 Q. All right. I don't ... Well, if there was a flat tire, 12 for instance, that would be an indication to you 13 that, again, the car is not going anywhere, right? 14 15 16 A. If he had a flat fire? The car could still move on a flat tire. Q. All right. But it's not going to be getting 17 away from you in a hurry because you've got a car 18 with four good tires, right? 19 A. I wouldn't know. 20 Q. Okay. 21 You didn't make a determination whether there were any flat tires on the car? 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. Okay. 24 So now you're out of the car. You and Officer Lawryn are both out of the car with your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 110 1 weapons drawn. 2 happens? 3 4 5 6 7 A. What's the very next thing that I attempt to give Mr. Castellanos verbal commands. Q. Which we know you don't know at this point what they were? A. It was to the effect of, Chicago Police, 8 Chicago Police, let me see your hands, was most 9 likely what was being said. 10 11 Chicago Police, Chicago Police, let me see your hands. Q. Okay. And just so we -- so we can kind of 12 put this to rest. 13 talking about it now for a long time, you still just 14 said that's most likely what was being said. 15 want to ask you about that. 16 When you say this -- again, after So I You still don't know what you said to him, 17 because "most likely what was said" is not 18 specifically what was said; would you agree, sir? 19 A. That's correct, but it was to that effect. 20 Q. So what happens after? 21 A. I kept on repeating those commands, Chicago 22 23 24 Police, let me see your hands, let me see your hands. Q. Tell me something that happens after that part of the discussion so we can avoid -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 111 1 A. Sure. 2 Q. -- asking 12 questions -- 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. -- and getting the same 12 answers. 5 A. I can see Mr. Castellanos was -- was 6 conscious, had his eyes open. 7 looking straightforward. I can see he was 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And I could see that he had his hands down 10 towards the bottom of the steering wheel, down 11 towards his lap, and I kept on repeating for our 12 safety, let me see your hands, Chicago Police. 13 attempted to approach the vehicle, walked slightly 14 closer. 15 Q. And I At this point in time in the conversation 16 that you're telling me about, this occurrence, he 17 still hasn't moved? 18 A. He's still sitting looking forward. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Well, he's got his eyes open anyway, right? 21 A. Got his eyes open, correct. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 So do you know whether he's conscious even at that point? A. I can see the eyes were open and he's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 112 1 2 staring straightforward. Q. Okay. So eyes open and staring in one 3 direction, that can indicate being conscious or it 4 could indicate being out cold, right? 5 6 7 A. I couldn't tell you for a fact what his physical situation was at the moment. Q. But what it does indicate is he's not moving 8 and he's not doing anything at that point in time at 9 all, right? 10 A. Not at that moment, he wasn't moving. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Approximately somewhere between 15 to 13 And you now are how close to him? possibly 7 feet. 14 Q. 15 to 7 feet, you said? 15 A. Possibly 15 to 7 feet. 16 I can't -- I don't know for sure. 17 Q. And where is Officer Lawryn? 18 A. He's to my right. 19 Q. Which would be north, south, east, or west 20 of you? 21 A. He would be south of me. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. Approximately somewhere from 5 to maybe 24 Okay. How far south of you? 10 feet. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 113 1 2 3 Q. Okay. And now Castellanos hasn't moved yet. What happens next? A. As I attempt to get closer to 4 Mr. Castellanos, Mr. Castellanos suddenly does a 5 quick turn, turns towards me. 6 towards me, I see a gun being pointed at me. And as he's turning 7 Q. Okay. What type of gun? 8 A. It was a -- it was a revolver. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. What color? 12 A. Blue steel. 13 Q. Okay. What model? And do you know what kind of bullets 14 or anything it would hold, how many shots in that 15 type of a revolver? 16 17 A. I would have no idea of what kind of model or what caliber, no. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. All I saw was him turn, I saw the gun, and I 20 And what hand did he have it in? focused on the gun. 21 Q. So you took a good look at this gun? 22 A. I saw the gun pointed at my face. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. As I see the gun, I'm trying to get out of BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 114 1 the way of that bullet, and I'm diving to my right. 2 Q. What bullet was that? 3 A. I'm trying to get away of where he's aiming 4 the weapon, where the weapon is being aimed. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what did you land on? 8 A. I landed on the concrete pavement. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I had some lacerations to multiple locations 13 on the body. 14 Q. What happened next? 15 A. At the moment that I am diving for cover, I 16 17 So you dive out of the way? Did you injure yourself? And how did you injure yourself? hear two gunshots. Q. Okay. Let me back you up just a second. 18 You say that you're 7 to 15 away -- feet away from 19 Castellanos. 20 steel revolver. You take a good hard look at a blue Did you yell "gun" to your partner? 21 A. I'm not sure. 22 Q. Wouldn't that be the thing to do? 23 A. I'm not sure what I yelled. 24 had time. I don't think I I'm not sure. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 115 1 Q. Is it possible you yelled "gun," or is it 2 not possible? 3 A. It's possible. 4 Q. Okay. 5 to you? 6 A. I don't think so, no. 7 Q. Okay. Did your partner yell any gun warning So as you sit here today, 8 specifically, again, you don't know what you said 9 when you saw the gun, if anything, true? 10 A. True. 11 Q. All right. So all you know is that you dove 12 out of -- you dove to your right and hit the ground, 13 right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. All right. 16 17 18 What did Officer Lawryn do if you -- if you were aware of that, if anything? A. I believe he tried to get out of the way, tried to find cover also. 19 Q. What did you notice about him? 20 A. I think he was also diving for cover. 21 Q. Well, I want to make sure that I understand 22 clearly. When you say you think he was diving for 23 cover, you either remember seeing him dive for cover 24 or he -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 116 1 A. He was diving for cover. 2 Q. Excuse me. 3 (Continuing) -- or you do not. So was -- 4 A. I do remember him diving for cover. 5 Q. All right. 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. All right. In which direction did he dive? Did you -- did you hit each 8 other at all while you were diving, or were you able 9 to do it independent of each other? 10 11 A. We might have come into contact, but I'm not -- slight contact. 12 Q. Well, did you or didn't you? 13 A. Probably did. 14 Q. Again, I don't need a "probably." I have 15 to -- it's my job actually to find out what did 16 happen. 17 not when you were diving for cover? So did you contact Officer Lawryn or did you 18 A. I believe we made contact. 19 Q. How so, where, and when? 20 A. I'm not sure. 21 Q. All right. 22 Who moved towards the other person, if anybody? 23 A. I know which direction I moved. 24 Q. Okay. You moved to your right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 117 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Do you know if Officer Lawryn was also 3 moving? 4 A. I'm not sure. 5 Q. Do you know if he was stationary? 6 A. If he was stationary? 7 Q. Yeah, meaning not moving. 8 A. No, I know what's stationary. 9 moving also. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I'm not sure. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Well, he wasn't standing. 14 Q. Okay. 15 Which direction? How do you know he was moving then? I wasn't there. He dove. So you need to tell me which direction he dove, if you know. 16 A. I don't. 17 Q. Okay. 18 But he was So you don't know if he went forward, backward, left, or right? 19 A. I'm not sure. 20 Q. And you don't know if he went north, south, 21 east, or west? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Did you land on him? Did he land on you? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 118 1 A. I don't believe so, no. 2 Q. So what part of your body, if any, contacted 3 Officer Lawryn when you dove? 4 A. I'm not sure. Maybe -- 5 Q. Well, being not sure -- 6 A. Maybe our feet or something. 7 Q. All right. I'm not sure. Again, I apologize, but a 8 "maybe" doesn't work for me. 9 feet contacting him or not? So do you remember your 10 A. I -- I don't remember. 11 Q. Do you remember any part of your body 12 contacting Detective -- or excuse me -- Officer 13 Lawryn? 14 A. I don't remember a specific part, no. 15 Q. So as we sit here today after 15 questions 16 about this, the easy answer is you don't know if you 17 bumped into Lawryn or he bumped into you at all -- 18 19 20 MR. HURD: BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. 21 22 Object- -- -- is that right? MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 23 Q. Right? 24 A. I'm not sure, no. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 119 1 Q. And just so I have a specific question 2 that's responsive to -- a specific answer responsive 3 to the question, I'll rephrase it. 4 As you sit here today, after having talked 5 about this now for a few minutes, is it a correct 6 statement that you have no specific recollection of 7 whether or not you and Officer Lawryn contacted each 8 other while diving to your right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Okay. 11 the ground? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You say you scratch yourself up or injure 14 15 16 So you dive to the right. yourself in some way. A. How so? I had lacerations to my right head, my right hand, my right knee. 17 Q. Anything else? 18 A. There might have been some other. 19 You hit Maybe possibly my left hand also. 20 Q. Again, I apologize, but -- 21 A. I'm not sure. 22 Q. -- possiblys don't work. 23 A. I'm not sure. 24 I'm not sure. There might have been, but BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 120 1 Q. All right. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did they treat you for these injuries? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Did you go to the hospital? So you would assume if you had an injury, it's probably in the medical record? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Cut. 10 Q. Any stitches? 11 A. No stitches. 12 Q. Abrasion or a slice? 13 A. Kind of an abrasion. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did Officer Lawryn get hurt? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How so? 19 A. I know he had some injuries to a knee. 20 Q. Do you know what they were? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know what injur- -- what knee it was? 23 24 What do you mean by a laceration? Any other part of your body get hurt? Excuse me. A. I don't recall, no. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 121 1 Q. 2 of an injury? 3 A. Some type of abrasion. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Was it a cut, a twist, a sprain? So you guys were wearing jeans, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So did your jeans get cut? 8 A. My partner's jeans got cut. 9 Q. Did yours? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Okay. 12 What kind You said you may -- you may have had a knee injury? 13 A. I did have a knee injury. 14 Q. Okay. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Were your jeans torn in that knee? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. All right. 15 20 And that was an abrasion of some sort too? As far as Officer Lawryn's knee, do you know if his jeans were torn? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. I recall seeing it -- seeing it in a -- in a 24 photograph. How do you know that? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 122 1 Q. Okay. Do you know of any other injuries 2 that Officer Lawryn sustained besides the knee 3 injury? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. So these injuries occur as you're diving for 6 what you believe to be cover, right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Okay. 9 No bullet has been fired by anybody at this point in time, right? 10 A. I couldn't say that. 11 Q. All right. 12 training -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- right? 15 I heard two gunshots. Now, you have been to gun You've been around places where guns are fired, right? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. So you believe that you heard actual 18 gunshots? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Okay. 21 You do not specifically know where those gunshots originated from, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Okay. 24 You're diving at the time that you hear them, I'm assuming? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 123 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. So you're in the air kind of when these 3 gunshots go off? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So not knowing who fired those 6 gunshots, when you hit the ground, you, in your mind, 7 have heard two gunshots but you don't specifically 8 know who fired the weapon, true? 9 A. True. 10 Q. So it's possible your partner, Mr. Lawryn, 11 he may have fired off two shots while you're looking 12 at this gun that is not yet shooting at you, right? 13 A. It's a possibility. 14 Q. Okay. So it's possible in your mind that 15 Officer Lawryn could have fired off the two shots -- 16 the first two shots of that entire event, right? 17 A. It's possible. 18 Q. Okay. In any event, not knowing if this 19 gentleman had shot at you at all, when you hit the 20 ground, what do you do next? 21 that I mean Mr. Castellanos. 22 A. "This gentleman," by Hit the ground, I get up off the ground. 23 feel pain to my head. 24 head. I I feel blood coming down my At that moment I believe I've been shot in the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 124 1 head. 2 been hit. 3 here, I'm still conscious, and I'm trying to move to 4 safety, cover. 5 6 I yell out to my partner, I've been hit, I've Q. At that time I'm telling myself I'm still Okay. So when you hit your head, you hit it while you were rolling, right? 7 A. I didn't know that. 8 Q. You know that as you're sitting here today, 9 right? 10 A. 11 possibility. 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 That's a -- that could be a -- that can be a Well, you didn't get shot in the head, did you, sir? A. Well, at this -- at this moment I haven't been shot in the head, no. Q. Okay. So the only way you hurt your head 17 that day is you dove and you hit your head on the 18 ground, right? 19 A. Possibly, yes. 20 Q. So this wound to you head that's bleeding is 21 a self-inflicted injury by you diving on the ground 22 and hitting your head, right? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Okay. But yet, you get up and you yell to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 125 1 your partner that you've been hit, meaning you've 2 been shot, right? 3 4 5 MR. HURD: Objection to the compound nature of the question. BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Okay. So that is basically, in your mind, 8 you're trying to give Lawryn the green light to fire 9 away and shoot the guy, right? 10 11 12 13 A. No. I'm trying to make my partner away that I -- aware that I've been shot. Q. Okay. And did Lawryn say anything to you before or after you yelling that you've been hit? 14 A. Not at that moment, no. 15 Q. And you said, I think, when you were 16 answering the question, you yelled I've been hit, 17 I've been hit. You said it twice? 18 A. I believe so, yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I believe that was the extent. 21 Q. Okay. 22 your knees? 23 A. I get myself back on my feet. 24 Q. And where are you in relationship to What else did you say next? So now you've gotten up. Are you on your feet? Are you on Where are you? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 126 1 Mr. Castellanos's car? 2 3 A. of some parked vehicles. 4 5 I start moving southbound towards the safety Q. So Castellanos's vehicle, I believe you said, was facing north? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So you're trying to get to the back of his 9 A. Tried to move towards the south end, yes. 10 Q. As you were approaching him originally you 8 11 car? were approaching towards the driver's side, from -- 12 A. From the west. 13 Q. -- the side? 14 A. From the west, yes. 15 Q. Okay. Now, you dive to the right, which 16 means you're diving towards the back of his car to 17 begin with? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. You bang your head on the ground and cut 20 yourself, right? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. You get up and now you're going to continue 23 moving further to the back -- towards the back of his 24 car, towards the parked cars that he's pinned BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 127 1 against? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Are you going between them or next to them, 4 or where are you? 5 A. I'm going next to the vehicles. 6 Q. Okay. 7 So are you still basically next to his car too, Castellanos's car, by the back wheels? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When you say "next" to them, what do you 10 11 12 13 mean, on the curb side? A. Towards some vehicles that were parked on the side. Q. Use Exhibit No. 1 if you can. That's the 14 vehicle that Castellanos's car is pinned up against. 15 Where were you going? 16 A. I was probably going behind this gray 17 vehicle here. 18 Q. So there's a -- 19 A. Probably this vehicle has cover. 20 Q. I'm going to just come over here so we can 21 talk about this a little bit and at least have a 22 picture of what you're talking about. 23 24 All right. We have a photograph here that I'm going to attempt to hold up here. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 128 1 MR. O'CONNOR: 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 3 4 5 Are you able to see this? Yes. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Okay. This vehicle here, the blue one, that's Castellanos's vehicle, right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. That's the back of his vehicle, and it's 8 pinned up against the gray one? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you would have been on the other 11 side of this vehicle, the blue one that we're looking 12 at, and you would have been diving towards the back 13 of it, behind the vehicle as we're looking at it in 14 the picture; is that true? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. And now you said you're going towards 17 some parked cars. 18 are you going towards, if any? 19 A. There's two cars here. Which one Well, this is not -- this picture does not 20 show the entire scene. It's a very bad picture. 21 doesn't show the positioning of our squad car, of our 22 vehicle -- 23 Q. Yours is -- 24 A. -- which is over here. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 It 129 1 Q. Yours is over here, right? 2 A. Right. But this does not -- this picture 3 does not really show the entire scene. 4 a very small area. It just shows So -- 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. -- for me to kind of show you is very 7 8 9 difficult with this picture here. Q. No problem. others in a minute. We're going to get to some But we see two cars parked on 10 the parking spaces here. 11 pinned against, right? One of them is the car he's 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you're diving basically to your right, 16 17 18 19 which would be towards this gray car, right? A. I was diving towards the direction of -- yes, towards the direction of that vehicle. Q. Okay. And then when you got up, you said 20 that you were going towards some parked cars. 21 they shown in this photograph? 22 A. This is the parked car. Are Because my 23 diving -- again, this picture being very bad to show 24 our positioning, I pretty much ended up diving BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 130 1 towards on the middle of the street there. 2 vehicle -- if you can show me a better picture. 3 4 Q. I'd be happy to. Okay. MR. O'CONNOR: 6 MR. HURD: 7 MR. O'CONNOR: 8 MR. HURD: 9 MR. O'CONNOR: 10 have three photos here. 12 I'm going to mark a few of these, if I might. 5 11 My I'm sorry. Are we on -- Exhibit 4. Thank you. What are you going to? 6, I think. No, 7. I think I just Sorry. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Okay. Sir, I'm going to mark these in no 13 particular order so we can talk about a few of these. 14 There's a few different vantage points which I 15 believe will give you a look at what you're talking 16 about here. 17 All right. I'm going to show you Exhibit 18 No. 4 for starters. 19 have to hold a couple of these up, unfortunately, 20 just so we can have a little bit of a record. 21 going to make my way around you here just over your 22 shoulder. 23 I'll be happy to back away. 24 Exhibit No. 4 -- I'm going to So I'm So if I'm too close to you, let me know. Exhibit No. 4, as we're looking at it -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 131 1 MR. O'CONNOR: 2 thing? 3 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 4 Q. Are you able to see this Thank you. -- you can see Mr. Castellanos's vehicle. 5 And we know that because he's laying in there 6 basically slumped over, right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. The gray one behind him, you can see is a 9 parked car. 10 That's the one that his car is backed up against, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you would have approached him over here 13 towards the driver's side from your vehicle that was 14 facing him, as I've got my hand here, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And, now, you would have dove from somewhere 17 between 7 to 15 feet away to the right, right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Kind of where that shell casing is there in 20 the street, that would have been about where you 21 started diving? 22 A. Could be, possibly, yes. 23 Q. All right. 24 That shell casing, did that come from your gun? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 132 1 A. I don't -- I don't know. 2 Q. Okay. 3 So you dive towards this gray car or somewhere else? 4 A. I'm sorry. Did I dive ... 5 Q. Towards the gray car. 6 A. Yes, towards this gray car. 7 Q. Okay. And when you said you got up and you 8 moved towards some parked cars for cover, are they 9 shown there? 10 A. 11 I pretty much hit the ground in this area here where the cas- -- around the area of the casing. 12 Q. Around the yellow shell casing mark? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And that yellow shell casing, that is a And I moved to my -- to my right. 15 casing that would have been found by the people 16 looking for bullet casings, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So if, hypothetically, you and your partner 19 are the only guys who fired bullets, that would have 20 either come from your gun or your partner's gun? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And truthfully, you only know that you and 23 your partner were the only ones guys who fired actual 24 shots that night, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 133 1 A. I don't know that. 2 Q. Exhibit No. 5, just to stay in order, shows 3 another view of Mr. Castellanos here in the blue car 4 sitting in the car, again slumped over. 5 car in the background came afterwards, right? That police 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Now, this shot is basically taken from the 8 vantage point of you getting out of your vehicle when 9 you arrived there, right? 10 A. That's correct, yes. 11 Q. And his car is, again, pinned against the 12 gray car? Mr. Castellanos is pinned against it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. You can see all the oil under the 15 engine here in front of the car where it's all banged 16 up, right? 17 A. Yeah. I can see it in the picture, yes. 18 Q. Okay. And again, you would have dove to the 19 right as we're looking at this picture? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Okay. Picture No. 6, again, another view. 22 This is looking basically from the front or front-ish 23 of Mr. Castellanos's car. 24 gray car that he's pinned up against. We're looking at that same Your shell BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 134 1 casing here that we said is where you started your 2 drive to the right, you see that yellow mark; is that 3 right? 4 MR. HURD: 5 shell casing. 6 MR. O'CONNOR: 7 8 Well, just to clarify, you don't know whose shell casing it is. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 9 Q. 10 11 Just to clarify, it's not his So let me just -MR. HURD: Just to clarify, I do. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 12 Q. All right. The shell casing that you see on 13 the street here, that's about where you started your 14 dive? 15 16 A. No, that's incorrect. That's probably where I -- probably where I landed. 17 Q. It's where you landed? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. So you would have been more to the left 20 here, or the bottom of the photograph, before you 21 started diving? 22 A. I would have been more perpendicular to 23 where his positioning is, the driver's side. 24 have been more to the left, yeah. So it'd That's probably BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 135 1 2 more the area where I landed. Q. Okay. You can kind of see some lines on the 3 roadway that just happen to be by that front tire. 4 Is that about where you started your -- your dive, at 5 that line? 6 7 A. That's a good possibility, yeah. That's a good estimate, yes. 8 Q. About even with the yellow shell casing? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 That's a good estimate, yes. So you would have landed around where the shell casing is? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you fire any shots from where you 14 landed? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 You got up and you basically, what, ran towards the parked cars? A. Ran towards this vehicle here, and I believe I fired my first two rounds from this location. Q. So between the silver car and the black car behind it is where you first started shooting? A. I think more towards the actual curb, on -- towards the sidewalk, yeah. Q. There's couple yellow shell casings -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 136 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- there by the curb. 3 A. Possibly, yes. 4 Q. Okay. Those would be yours? Exhibit No. 7, another vantage point. 5 It shows from the passenger front of 6 Mr. Castellanos's car; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And does it show your headlights from your 9 vehicle up on the top right of this photo? 10 11 A. Q. 16 I Well, there wouldn't have been any other car parked on the street besides yours, right? 14 15 That might be our car. don't know for sure. 12 13 I believe so. A. Well, I'm going to say that may be our car, Q. Well, just so we have no mistake. yes. You're 17 the only car that drove on that side of the vehicle 18 and parked in the middle of the street because you 19 basically wanted to stop that car from moving, right? 20 A. That may be our car, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 23 24 You don't know of anybody else's car that it may be besides yours, do you? A. Right from that picture, it's very dark. It's hard for me to say with certainty that that's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 137 1 our vehicle. 2 Q. 3 You would never have let any other vehicle into the scene at that location, would you? 4 A. I had no control of that scene. 5 Q. Okay. All right. So you get up. You go 6 between the gray car and the black car, and you start 7 shooting, right? 8 9 A. I get up. I move towards my right towards the cover of that parked vehicle. I see 10 Mr. Castellanos continuing to turn towards me and my 11 partner, and at the same time I see an extended arm 12 with a weapon being pointed at us. 13 start -- and then I proceeded to fire two rounds. 14 15 16 Q. And then I And the weapon that you're describing, is it that same blue steel revolver? A. At that moment I was not able to say -- see 17 it as clearly as I did when I was up close to the 18 vehicle. 19 dark object, because it was a distance. 20 21 Q. I saw it -- at that moment I saw it to be a I want to make sure I understand this now. You come up by the car? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. You're telling me that you believe you 24 saw -- you're not telling me you believe. You're BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 138 1 telling me that you saw a blue steel revolver pointed 2 at you? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And you focused right at it? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Then you dove to the right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Nobody's fired any bullets as of that point 9 in time? 10 11 A. distinct gunshots. 12 13 As I'm diving to my right, I hear two Q. Okay. And you don't know where they came from? 14 A. I don't. 15 Q. You get up? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now you're looking towards Mr. Castellanos 18 19 20 again? A. I get up. I try to find cover. towards Mr. Castellanos again, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I don't know if it was his arm. 23 24 And I look And he's got his arm out the window? I see Mr. Castellanos turning. Q. Was it his arm out the window or not? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 139 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Are you telling me there was somebody else 3 in the car? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Is there any police report anywhere in this There may have been. 6 case where you told anyone that there was another 7 person in the car besides Mr. Castellanos? 8 A. Not that I know of. 9 Q. Wouldn't that be a hugely important piece of 10 information to tell someone, that there may have been 11 another individual in that car? 12 A. That would be big information, yes. But at 13 the moment all I see is Mr. Castellanos turning 14 towards me and I see a weapon being pointed at me. 15 Q. Okay. And now this, what you're telling me 16 is a weapon at this point in time -- you told me 17 after you've gotten up from your dive, you're looking 18 back towards Mr. Castellanos. 19 sticking out of the car? You see an arm 20 A. I don't see an arm sticking out of the car. 21 Q. I thought you said that. 22 23 24 Maybe I'm wrong. Please correct me. A. No, I never said I saw an arm sticking out of any vehicle. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 140 1 2 3 Q. I thought you said there was an arm pointing out of the vehicle? A. No. I said that Mr. Castellanos turned 4 towards me and my partner and I saw an extended arm 5 pointing a weapon in our direction. 6 Q. Is that different than what I asked you? 7 A. Well, you're saying that I saw a gun being 8 pointed out of the vehicle. That's what you're 9 saying. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And I did not see a gun being pointed out of 12 the vehicle. 13 Q. Well, you saw -- Okay, fair enough. You didn't see a gun 14 pointed out of the vehicle, yet you shot at the 15 vehicle, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You shot at Mr. Castellanos specifically 18 even though you did not see a gun pointed out of the 19 vehicle, correct? 20 A. I pointed -- I shot at the vehicle. 21 Q. Well, you weren't trying to hit the vehicle. 22 You were trying to hit Mr. Castellanos, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. So you aimed and shot at BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 141 1 Mr. Castellanos knowing that you did not see a gun 2 pointed out of the vehicle, true? 3 4 5 A. I saw a weapon being pointed from the interior of that vehicle. Q. All right. You said a couple things here. 6 I just want to know what happened, all right? 7 there a gun being pointed out of the vehicle with an 8 arm extended out of the vehicle, or not? 9 A. Not extended out of the vehicle, no. 10 Q. Okay. 11 So you say there's an arm extended in the vehicle -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- but not outside the vehicle yet? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. All right. 16 Is And Mr. Castellanos is sitting in the front driver's seat, right? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. So if he sticks his arm out, it's out the 19 window? 20 A. Not necessarily. 21 Q. If he used his left arm, would it be out the 22 window? 23 A. If he used his left arm, possibly, yes. 24 Q. If he used his right arm, would it be out BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 142 1 the window? 2 A. Possibly it could be. 3 Q. Do you even know if Mr. Castellanos had 4 either arm extended? 5 A. I'm not sure. 6 Q. Okay. If he didn't have an arm extended and 7 you did not see a gun attached to his arm extending 8 it, you shouldn't shoot him, right? 9 A. It depends on the situation. 10 Q. This is the situation. You've got a guy 11 sitting in a car. 12 He does not have his arm extended. 13 he does not -- it's not his arm and you see that his 14 arm is not extended and you don't see any gun. 15 shouldn't shoot that guy, should you. 16 A. He's not pointing a gun at you. And you see that You From the -- from my vantage point, I can't 17 tell you with certainty if Mr. Castellanos -- if his 18 arm -- I saw Mr. Castellanos turn towards me, and I 19 saw a weapon being pointed at me. 20 Q. I heard that part. 21 A. So my belief is this person, 22 23 24 Mr. Castellanos, is pointing a weapon at me. Q. Actually, what you told me was that from the point you looked up and looked at what you thought BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 143 1 was a weapon, you couldn't see it very clearly, and 2 you could not see if it was even a gun, right? 3 A. I saw a dark -- a dark weapon. To me, from 4 my vantage point, it would be the gun that I saw 5 earlier, yes. 6 Q. All right. Well, you told me that it wasn't 7 the blue steel weapon, the gun that you saw pointed 8 in your face. 9 was fuzzy -- 10 11 You told me that it was an object that MR. HURD: Objection -- BY MR. O'CONNOR: 12 Q. 13 -- and it was a dark object. MR. HURD: 14 -- misstates -- misstates testimony. 15 MR. O'CONNOR: 16 the testimony is. 17 question. 18 The record will state what I'm still entitled to ask the BY MR. O'CONNOR: 19 Q. You told me that it was not the blue steel 20 gun that you'd mentioned earlier that was pointed at 21 you. 22 A. I did not say that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 You told me that it was dark object that you could not specifically identify as a gun, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 144 1 right? 2 3 A. identify, correct. 4 5 A dark object that I cannot specifically Q. Okay. So you didn't know if it was a gun or not a gun? 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Mr. Castellanos had his arm pointed anywhere, right? 9 10 And you don't have any idea if A. I couldn't say with a hundred percent certainty, no. 11 Q. Okay. So you've got a guy sitting in a car. 12 He's the only guy that you've seen up until this 13 point in the car. 14 the car or at you, and you don't see a gun that you 15 can identify as a gun. 16 17 A. He's not pointing an arm out of Am I correct so far? At the -- I saw what to me was a weapon being pointed at me. 18 Q. I'm talking about Mr. Castellanos now. You 19 did not see his arms raised, and you did not see him 20 holding any kind of a gun, correct? 21 A. It's hard for me to give you an answer on 22 that. Because if I see a partial arm being -- coming 23 up from the driver's seat, I can do this and point a 24 weapon at you, and you don't know if that's my arm or BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 145 1 someone else in the vehicle's arm -- in the vehicle. 2 You can be sitting next to me and I could -- and I 3 can reach around you and point the weapon at someone. 4 Q. Okay. Now let's talk about specifics. 5 said there was an extended arm. 6 extended? 7 8 A. I saw a weapon. pointed at me. Show me. You How was it I saw a weapon being I saw a hand and a weapon. 9 Q. 10 showing here? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. It was not extended outside of the vehicle. 14 You saw a hand. Was it situated like you're And you were not able to identify -- Here's the window. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Okay? It was not outside the vehicle. I 17 see Mr. Castellanos turn, and I see a hand holding a 18 dark object. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. At this moment I don't know, I did not know. 21 Q. Okay. Which you do not know was a gun? Is it possible the guy could just be 22 saying, hey, here's my hands, I'm showing you my 23 hands? 24 A. It's possible. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 146 1 Q. Okay. And if the guy is holding his hands 2 up to show you here's my hands, you shouldn't shoot 3 him, right? 4 A. If that's the situation. 5 Q. Right? 6 A. It's possible, yeah. 7 Q. But you did shoot him, right? 8 A. I was responding to a threat, yes. 9 Q. But not know if there's a gun there and not 10 seeing what, if anything, is in anybody's hand there, 11 do you evaluate before you shoot somebody to death? 12 A. I saw a gun. 13 Q. What gun did you talk -- what gun are you 14 talking about now? 15 A. I saw a gun, and then I saw an object that I 16 perceived possibly to be a weapon, possibly the same 17 gun. t 23 24 Q. So at that point in time, you are not sure that anybody's pointing a gun at you or at anybody, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 147 1 right? 2 A. I saw a gun earlier, so ... 3 Q. I'm not talking about earlier. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. I'm talking about at the time before you 6 shot your weapon. You see somebody with their hands 7 out -- or at least one hand, and you don't know of 8 any gun specifically being pointing at anybody 9 attached to that arm, correct? 10 A. I saw a weapon attached to that arm. 11 Q. What kind of weapon was it? 12 A. I couldn't give you specifics, a 13 low-caliber -- 14 Q. Can you give me anything? 15 A. It was a dark object, which -- 16 17 18 MR. HURD: 21 22 Okay. BY THE WITNESS: A. 19 20 What is it? -- could have been -MR. HURD: Go ahead, finish your answer. BY THE WITNESS: A. It was a dark object that could have been the same revolver that I'd seen earlier. 23 MR. HURD: We're going to take a break now. 24 MR. O'CONNOR: Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 148 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 2 Videotape No. 2. 3 12:52 p.m. 4 This will now conclude We're going off the record at (A short break was had.) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 6 video record. 7 Videotape No. 3 of the deposition of Juan 8 Martinez, Officer Juan Martinez. 9 10 MR. O'CONNOR: 13 14 This is Counsel? Can I have just the last question back, if you don't mind? 11 12 The time is 1:03 p.m. (Record read as requested.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. So you see an extended arm within the parameters of the car, is what you're telling us? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You don't know who that arm was attached to? 17 A. I couldn't tell you -- I -- I don't know. 18 Q. All right. 19 20 21 22 Are you telling us that there was another person in the car or not? A. I'm saying that there's a possibility there could have been someone else in the vehicle. Q. Okay. Let's assume that you're at the scene 23 and you believe that someone else is in that vehicle 24 and you believe that that arm that you see extended BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 149 1 holding an object that you do not know is a gun 2 belongs to another person besides Mr. Castellanos, 3 right? 4 obligation as a police officer reporting what 5 happened in this occurrence with a fatal shooting 6 that you tell those detectives that you talked to 7 that there was another individual in the car and that 8 they may have had a weapon? Assume that for a moment. Would it be your 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You did not tell anybody that investigated 11 this occurrence that there was another individual in 12 the car or that they may have actually had a gun; is 13 that correct? 14 A. 15 in the car. 16 Q. I'm not sure if there was another individual There might have been. Did you tell anybody at the police 17 department that there might have been another 18 individual in the car with a gun? 19 A. I'm not sure. 20 Q. Wouldn't that be a pretty important piece of 21 information that stands out in your mind? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I don't recall if I did or not. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 150 1 Q. Well, if you reported that there was another 2 guy in the car, certainly the police would look to 3 interview that guy, right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. They interviewed other people that just live 6 in the neighborhood to hear what they might have 7 heard or observed, right? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. So if there was another person in the 10 vehicle, theoretically there could be another person 11 that would be walking around the streets today, 12 right? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And if that object was a gun, there might be 15 a person with a gun? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Yet you don't remember reporting that to 18 anybody, correct? 19 A. 20 recall. 21 Q. 22 At the moment I don't. Okay. I'm not -- I don't Well, it's been how long now since the occurrence? 23 A. Two years. 24 Q. You've read a lot of reports in two years? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 151 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You've talked to a lot of attorneys in two 3 years? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You've talked to a criminal attorney? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You've talked to the City's attorney? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You've talked to detectives? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You've talked to your bosses? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Yeah. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever tell any of those people that About this incident? 16 there may have been another individual in the -- let 17 me rephrase the question. 18 you told your lawyer. 19 told your lawyer, did you tell any detectives -- Aside from what you may have 20 MR. HURD: 21 MR. O'CONNOR: 22 23 24 I don't want to know what Lawyers. Fair enough. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Did you tell any detectives or others investigating this occurrence, aside from your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 152 1 criminal lawyer or your civil lawyer, that you saw 2 any other person in the car besides Mr. Castellanos? 3 4 A. I did not relate that I saw another person in the vehicle. 5 Q. Why not? 6 A. Because I don't know for certainty there was 7 another person. 8 head, I would say, yeah, there was another person. 9 The possibility of being another person is there 10 11 If I saw another person, another also. Q. So you don't know if you saw a gun being 12 pointed on an extended arm, and you don't know if 13 there was one person or two or more in the car? 14 A. 15 16 17 That's right. MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. When you fired your first bullet, were you 18 firing at Mr. Castellanos or at the hypothetical 19 person with the arm extended? 20 A. I was firing at Mr. Castellanos. 21 Q. Well, Mr. Castellanos, you already told us, 22 you didn't even know if that was his arm, right? 23 A. I didn't have the time to make the decision. 24 Q. So if there was someone else in the vehicle BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 153 1 who was pointing an object, you were going to kill 2 Mr. Castellanos even if it was some other person who 3 was pointing an object; is that right? 4 A. I wasn't sure if that was -- I couldn't tell 5 you with certainty if that was not or that was 6 Mr. Castellanos pointing the weapon. 7 been him. 8 Q. It could have It could have been someone else. Okay. Let's assume for a moment there's 9 someone else, there's somebody else pointing the gun. 10 The reason you believe that is you don't -- you don't 11 know that that was Castellanos's arm at all. 12 fact, you think it might be somebody else's arm, 13 right? 14 A. There's a possibility, yes. 15 Q. Okay. In So rather than aim a gun and shoot at 16 the person whose arm is extended, you decided you're 17 going to shoot and kill Castellanos even though you 18 know it may not be his arm and you don't know if it's 19 even a gun, right? 20 A. I didn't know that might not be his arm. 21 Q. Well, you knew it might be someone else's 22 arm -- 23 A. It could be, yeah. 24 Q. -- you already told us that. So if it's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 154 1 someone else's arm, by definition it's not his arm, 2 right? 3 A. I didn't know -- I didn't know with 4 certainty that that was not Mr. Castellanos's arm. 5 It could have or could have not been his arm. 6 Q. Okay. So if our court reporter were to 7 point a gun at you and I have an arm that happens to 8 be over here somewhere as well, could you shoot me or 9 would you just shoot the court reporter? 10 11 A. make a decision like you're giving to me now. 12 13 I don't have the clear and -- the time to Q. Well, you have more time now than you had then and you still can't make a decision, right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who do you shoot, me or the court reporter? 16 A. If you have the weapon, I'm going to shoot Q. Okay. 17 18 19 I can tell you that -- you. So if I don't have the weapon, you don't shoot me, right? 20 A. Possibly, yeah. Possibly. 21 Q. Well, you just don't shoot everybody up in 22 sight because you think someone might have an object 23 that you cannot identify as a gun, right? 24 A. Well, just because I don't see a weapon BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 155 1 doesn't -- doesn't say the person is not armed. 2 Q. 3 later, right? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So if you don't know the person is armed, 6 7 8 9 10 Okay. So you shoot first and ask questions where do you get off shooting them? A. Like I told you, I saw a handgun, and I saw a weapon being pointed at me. Q. You told me that you saw an object being pointed at you, and you also told -- 11 A. A dark object. 12 Q. -- me that you did not know if that was a 13 gun or not. 14 A. 15 I saw a dark -- a dark object which I perceived as a weapon. 16 Q. And you don't know who was holding? 17 A. I can't tell you with a hundred percent 18 19 20 21 22 certainty. Q. You can't tell me with any certainty; isn't that true? A. I can't tell you with a hundred percent certainty. 23 Q. Who was holding it? 24 A. From -- most likely? I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 156 1 Q. Okay. So not knowing who was holding a dark 2 object that you cannot identify as a gun, you 3 intentionally shot and killed Mr. Castellanos, right? 4 5 MR. HURD: shot him. 6 Objection. He doesn't know if he He only shot at him. MR. O'CONNOR: All right. Well, let's try 7 to limit the improper objections if we may, and 8 I'll ask the question again. 9 10 11 12 13 MR. HURD: him. Well, you keep saying he shot He doesn't know whether he shot him. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Well, you fired a bullet in his direction aiming to kill him, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Have you ever gone to marksman school or, 16 like, shooting school with the police? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Are you a good shot? 19 A. Pretty much. 20 Q. What's your average? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. How do you qualify that: 23 24 of 10, pass, fail? A. 8 out of 10, 9 out How do they do that? They pass, fail. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 157 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I believe passing, if a score -- a score, I 3 What's passing? believe, of 26 and higher, I believe. 4 Q. 26 meaning what? 5 A. 26 out of 30. 6 Q. From what distance? 7 A. Various distances. 8 Q. What's the ballpark range? 9 A. Anywhere from 5 feet to 25. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. 25 yards. 12 Q. -- where you're firing this weapon from on I don't know exact. Certainly -- 13 the night of this shooting, you're within the range 14 that you're tested, right? 15 A. Possibly. 16 Q. Well, you are or you're not. 17 you are. 18 many feet away from the guy? Tell me where You're standing behind the car. You're how 19 A. I'm not sure. 20 Q. What's your best estimate? 21 A. It could be 25 feet to 40 feet, I'm not 22 sure. 23 Q. It's no less than 25 feet away? 24 A. I would say an estimate around 25 feet. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 158 1 2 Q. Okay. And when you're tested, in order to pass you have to hit at least 26 out of 30 shots? 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And have you ever failed that shooting test? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Your partner shot how many? 10 A. I'm not sure. 11 12 You shot four bullets, right? Q. And you're guessing 15 because 29 minus your 4 is his 15, right? 14 MR. HURD: 29? BY THE WITNESS: 16 A. 29? 17 Q. I'm sorry. 18 19. I apologize. Let me rephrase the question. 19 You're guessing 15 because you know there 20 were 19 bullets fired. 21 means your partner fired 15, right? 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Okay. 24 I'm not -- 13 15 I'm guessing 15 or so. You fired 4 of them, which And the kind of gun that your partner used, you're generally familiar with that because BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 159 1 you've worked with him for a while, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What kind of weapon is it? 4 A. A Smith & Wesson. 5 Q. What kind of weapon do you have? 6 A. A Smith & Wesson. 7 Q. Did they have the same -- same make and 8 model basically? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Capacity? 12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. 13. 14 Q. How many do you carry typically? 15 A. I carry two magazines of 12 rounds in How many bullets in your gun? 16 my -- in my holster, one fully loaded magazine of 17 12 rounds in the gun, plus one in the chambers, 18 that's 13. 19 20 Q. Okay. weap- -- how many bullets does that carry? 21 A. I think his capacity is a little higher than 22 mine. 23 17 rounds. 24 And your partner's gun, how many The capacity might be -- it might be Q. Okay. You heard or read or saw -- and tell BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 160 1 me which it is, if you would -- that your partner 2 shot a bunch of bullets and actually pulled off the 3 clip and put a new clip on and continued firing, 4 right? 5 A. If I read that somewhere? 6 Q. Are you aware of that generally? 7 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. 8 Q. How are you aware of that? 9 A. I saw that, I believe, in a report 10 somewhere. 11 Q. So you know by definition that he would have 12 had to have at least fired into the second clip of 13 bullets. 14 fired 15, anyway, which is more than the capacity of 15 one load, right? He would have had to reload because he 16 A. I believe so, yes. 17 Q. So back to you. 18 shot, are you standing or kneeling? 19 20 Your first -- your first A. I believe I was -- I was not standing for sure. 21 Q. What were you doing? 22 A. I was probably -- 23 Q. I don't want to know what you were probably 24 doing. Please tell me what you remember. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 161 1 A. I think I was kneeling. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. In the area of the gray vehicle that I 4 5 6 And where? showed you in the photograph. Q. Okay. Is the area that you were kneeling shown in the photograph? Feel free to look at them. 7 A. This is not a good photograph. 8 Q. There's six of them there. 9 A. Probably just to the south of the back end 10 of this vehicle, the trunk area. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I was probably using the back end here as 13 shielding -- 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. -- and was kneeling. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. And I can see Mr. Castellanos turn. 18 Q. Okay. So I just asked you where you were 19 when you fired the weapon. 20 at the back of that vehicle? So you're saying you're 21 A. In this area here, yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 And I think you said "probably." Does that mean you specifically know you were there? A. Yeah. I was in this area, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 162 1 Q. And were you or were you not kneeling? 2 A. You know what? 3 recall. 4 Q. I don't recall. I don't Were you resting your hand on the gun -- on 5 the car for stability or no stability or free hand, 6 two hands? What were you doing? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Were you looking at where you were shooting? 11 A. I was looking in a direction, yes. 12 Q. Were you looking at a target for the bullet 13 to hit? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was the target? 16 A. The target was Mr. Castellanos. 17 Q. What part of his body were you aiming at? 18 A. The part of it that I could see. 19 Q. Which was what? 20 A. That was not shielded by steel. 21 Q. Which was what? 22 A. It was probably the head area. 23 Q. Again, you said "probably." 24 Your first shot, what did you hit? know what you were aiming at. I just want to What part of his body BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 163 1 were you aiming at? 2 A. 3 be his head. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I'm not sure. 6 Q. Did you see any reaction to his body when 7 I was aiming at the exposed area, that would you fired the weapon? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. 10 11 12 Did you hit him in the head? What did Mr. Castellanos do, if anything, after you fired the first bullet? A. Nothing. Continued -- continued turning towards myself and my partner. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I saw his body turn towards me. 15 16 17 18 Where were his arms? I'm not really sure about his arms. Q. Okay. So you didn't see his arms at that point? A. I saw an arm. I can't tell you with a 19 hundred percent certainty if that was his arm or 20 someone else's arm. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. That it continued pointing an object in my 23 24 What did you notice about that arm? direction and direction of my partner. Q. Could it have been just holding up whatever BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 164 1 he might have had in his hands saying, here's my 2 hands, don't shoot me? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Why not? 5 A. The hand was definitely holding an object. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Did not have his hands extended, no. 8 Q. You don't know what the object is that he 9 was holding? 10 A. I don't know with certainty, no. 11 Q. Okay. 12 afterwards? 13 A. Did you ever look in the car The only contact I had with the vehicle 14 afterwards was to -- with my partner to secure 15 Mr. Castellanos. 16 17 Q. Okay. You didn't look around the car to see what was in there? 18 A. No. 19 Q. All right. 20 point in time there was a weapon in there? 21 22 A. No, I didn't. I did not -- did not inspect the car. 23 24 Even though you thought at some Q. head. Okay. So you shoot at Mr. Castellanos's He continues to turn. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 165 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, is he turning to his left or right? 3 A. He's turning to his left. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. No, I'm not talking to him. 6 Q. Okay. 7 How long before you fire your second shot? 8 A. 9 first shot. 10 Q. 11 Are you talking to him? My second shot was immediately after my Okay. So you shoot the first time not being able to identify an object as a gun? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. You shoot a second bullet at him, again, 14 aimed at him not identifying that he has a gun? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And not even knowing if it's his arm that's 17 extended, right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 And what do you do next? You just fire a third bullet, or you do something else? A. No. I tried to move my location. I tried 22 to move -- move my location to see if I could get a 23 better view, move my location to the west slightly. 24 Q. So you fired two bullets, and then you moved BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 166 1 to your west? 2 A. I moved slightly to my west, southwest. 3 Q. Which is where in the picture or related to 4 5 the car? A. It's out of picture. 6 area of this light pole here. 7 MR. HURD: 8 9 Probably closer to the Marked being Exhibit 1. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. And we're holding up Exhibit No. 1, and 10 there's a light pole that is -- that is behind the 11 gray car that we see here; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you believe that you moved basically 14 further towards the grass area -- 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. -- and behind the car? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. 19 And why did you move behind the car and towards the grass? 20 A. I was trying to avoid him tracking me. 21 Q. Okay. 22 And had your partner fired any bullets at this point in time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How many? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 167 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. How many did you hear? 3 A. I couldn't tell you. 4 Q. Was it more than one? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. Where was your partner standing or sitting 7 or kneeling or otherwise when he fired? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. So you're out there -- 10 MR. HURD: The picture -- I'm just cleaning 11 up the record. The picture he showed -- he held 12 up before and to identify where he shot was 13 Exhibit No. 6. 14 15 16 17 MR. O'CONNOR: Thank you. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. The -- when you first shot your first bullet, where was your partner located? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Okay. How do you know your partner had fired his gun? 21 A. How do I know he fired his gun? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. Because I see all the casings that were 24 recovered and I know at one point I did see my BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 168 1 partner shooting. 2 Q. When did you see him, and where was he? 3 A. I don't know an exact time during the 4 shooting, but I believe I saw him in the area to my 5 right. 6 Q. To your right as you were standing where? 7 A. As I was standing -- 8 9 10 11 MR. HURD: Referring again to Exhibit 6. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You're referring to Exhibit 6, which is the gray car again. You were behind the car -- 12 A. Behind the car. 13 Q. -- when you took your first shot, right? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And you're saying your partner was to your 16 17 18 right. Does that put him on the grass? A. That puts him to the grass, maybe around the tree area. 19 Q. So he's behind the gray car? 20 A. Yes, he's behind that gray car. 21 Q. So he's shooting through the back window of 22 a car? 23 A. I don't know that. 24 Q. Well, if you drew a straight line between BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 169 1 him, where he was, and the car, where would the 2 bullet enter? 3 A. Well, I don't know if he's shooting over the 4 vehicle. 5 vehicle. 6 You're saying he's shooting through the Q. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be shooting 7 through the gray vehicle. I'm talking about 8 Castellanos's vehicle. 9 partner is shooting at Castellanos from where he was If he's shooting -- your 10 standing, how would a bullet get to Castellanos? 11 What path would it take? 12 13 A. the vehicle, of Castellanos's vehicle. 14 15 Oh, it would probably be through the rear of Q. Okay. All right. And you don't know how many bullets your partner fired from that location? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. Did you have any dialogue with your partner 18 after you said I'm hit, I'm hit? 19 A. He did come over to me and ask me if I was 20 okay. He said, Juan, are you okay? 21 okay? He asked me a few times. 22 23 24 Q. Juan, are you Is this after you fired your first two shots or before? A. It was after. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 170 1 Q. And was it before you fired a third shot? 2 A. No, I don't think so. 3 Q. So you fired again before your partner came 4 over to check on you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 How long was it between your second and your third shot? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. I would be just throwing a wild guess. Give me an estimate. 11 don't know exactly. 12 keep track of time during an incident like that. 13 Q. All right. I I lost -- it's hard for me to Well, you shot twice from behind 14 the car at the back. You moved to your west, which 15 is basically more behind the car, which is closer to 16 where Mr. Lawryn was standing, right? 17 A. I moved in his direction, yes. 18 Q. Okay. And then when you got to that point 19 where you're near Lawryn, do you start firing again 20 right away? 21 A. No. 22 Q. When you moved towards Mr. Lawryn to the Repeat that question, please, again. 23 west before you fired your third bullet, what did you 24 do then before firing that third bullet, if anything? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 171 1 2 A. I just moved, relocated myself, because I was being tracked by Mr. Castellanos. 3 Q. And then you started shooting? 4 A. To defeat the threat, yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Did you ever say anything else to Castellanos after you fired your second bullet? 7 A. No. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 You didn't say give up, throw your weapon out, show your hands, nothing; you just kept firing, right? 11 A. I did not give any more instruction, verbal 12 instruction. 13 Q. Okay. So you know now that you've shot at a 14 guy twice aiming for his head. You know that 15 there's -- you don't see whether there's his arms or 16 someone else's arms. 17 there's a gun. 18 him, you don't say anything like an instruction such 19 as give up, put your hands out the window, put your 20 hands on the steering wheel, throw your gun out of 21 the car? You can't identify specifically And before you fire a third bullet at You don't say anything like that, true? 22 A. There was no verbal instruction given, no. 23 Q. So that's a true statement that I just said; 24 is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 172 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. And your partner didn't say 3 anything like what I just said to Mr. Castellanos at 4 any time that evening, correct? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. That's a correct statement, he did not say 7 anything like that to Mr. Castellanos? 8 A. Did I say? 9 Q. Your partner, Mr. Lawryn, he did not say any 10 of those instructions to Mr. Castellanos that you 11 hear; is that correct? 12 A. To my belief, I don't believe so. 13 Q. So you fire your third shot. 14 15 16 17 18 What are you aiming at? A. I'm aiming at the exposed -- his exposed area, which is his head area. Q. Okay. So is Castellanos still sitting in the car in the front seat? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Does he got a seat belt on? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. At this point when you're behind the car 23 trying to shoot him, you're trying to shoot him in 24 the back of the head? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 173 1 A. No. 2 Q. Where are you trying to shoot him? 3 A. He's turning towards me and my partner. 4 Q. Well, actually, you're behind him now. 5 Because you're behind the gray car -- 6 A. He's turning. 7 Q. -- and he's turned to his left, which would 8 be looking out towards your vehicle, which is in the 9 street, right? 10 A. 11 at, turning. 12 Q. 13 He's turning his body towards where we're Okay. He can't turn his head all the way around, can he? 14 A. Well, if I'm in a vehicle here -- 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. -- and you're behind me, I can turn my body. 17 Q. Did he turn just like you did there? 18 A. He turned his body. Q. So you'd be looking out your driver's 19 20 21 I saw the body turn, yes. window, as you're showing us here, right? 22 A. I'd be looking out my driver's window? 23 Q. Right now as you're just demonstrating, 24 you're demonstrating -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 174 1 A. Well, if you're -- 2 Q. -- what Mr. Cast- -- 3 A. -- in a Smart -- 4 Q. Excuse me. 5 A. If you're -- 6 Q. Excuse me. 7 A. -- in a Smart car, I would say yes. 8 you're not. 9 probably not. 10 Q. 11 But If you're in an SUV or a bigger car, Okay. Mr. Castellanos, as you said, is looking out to his left -- 12 A. He's -- 13 Q. -- looking out the driver's side window, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 Turning, yes. And you're standing now behind him, behind the vehicle that he's pinned against, right? 18 A. I'm standing to the south of the vehicle, 20 Q. And you're aiming at his head? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So if you hit him, you're going to hit him 19 yes. 23 in the left temple because he's looking out the 24 window towards your vehicle that you got out of, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 175 1 right? 2 A. Possibly, yes. 3 Q. Okay. 4 5 6 Is that where you're aiming to hit him, in the head? A. I was aiming at -- at a target where I can hit, which was -- which was -- 7 Q. In English, it's his head, though, right? 8 A. It would be his head, yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Where did your third bullet go? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Were you looking at your target when you 14 Did you hit him in the head? pulled the trigger? 15 A. Was I looking at my target? 16 Q. Yeah, his head. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you see any reaction of any kind when 19 you pulled the trigger for the third time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What did you see? 22 A. He continued turning towards me and my 23 24 partner. Q. So he's continuing now to turn like an BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 176 1 exorcist, head all the way around, or how's -- 2 A. No. 3 Q. -- he doing it? 4 5 MR. HURD: Objection, argumentative. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 6 Q. How's he turning his head further back? 7 A. He's continuing to turn his body. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Whether it be -- the angles of the turning, 10 I couldn't tell you, you know, what the degree of the 11 turns were. 12 his turns, but he was continuing to turn his body 13 towards me and my partner. I couldn't give you the exact degrees of 14 Q. Was his engine still going loud? 15 A. Was the engine still going loud? 16 Q. Yeah. 17 A. I'm not sure. 18 Q. Were the wheels still spinning on his car? 19 A. At that moment I'm not sure. 20 Q. Okay. 21 you? Did he attempt to say anything to Do you hear him talking? 22 A. No, I didn't hear him talking. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And you fire the third bullet. don't see it visibly hit anything, right? You BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 177 1 A. To my knowledge, I don't know what I hit, 3 Q. Did you go through the back windshield? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Well, if you're aiming at his head and you 2 no. 6 wanted to hit his head, you'd have to go through the 7 rear windshield from where you fired that third shot, 8 right? 9 A. That's incorrect. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 How would you get to his head otherwise? A. As you can see in the pictures there, at 13 that angle there's really -- I'm not -- wouldn't be 14 aiming through the back of his vehicle. 15 Q. So were you to the side of his vehicle and 16 trying to hit him out of -- from outside his car 17 still, or were you shooting him through the back 18 window? 19 A. 20 I was shooting from this angle here, the light pole. 21 22 No. MR. HURD: On Exhibit 6. BY THE WITNESS: 23 A. I was not -- 24 Q. So on Exhibit 6, you went behind the gray BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 178 1 car and you went further behind it towards the light 2 pole? 3 4 MR. HURD: That's Exhibit 1. BY THE WITNESS: 5 A. This is Exhibit 1. 6 Q. All right. 7 pole? Does Exhibit 1 show the light Does it show the light pole? 8 A. This pole here? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is that the one you're talking about? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that the light pole you were near when 14 you fired your third shot? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. So you were trying to hit him in the 17 head. And at that point from that location, you 18 would not have had to go through the rear window, 19 true? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Okay. 22 And again, you didn't see any blood, you didn't see any reaction from that third shot? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Okay. What did you do next? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 179 1 A. I fired a fourth shot. 2 Q. Did you make any assessment before firing 3 the fourth shot as to whether he was alive, 4 breathing, compliant, anything? 5 6 7 A. My fourth shot immediately followed my third. Q. So the answer is you did not do any analysis 8 as to whether he was alive, breathing, compliant with 9 instructions, giving himself up, you didn't do any of 10 those things before you shot a fourth time, true? 11 A. No verbal instructions, no. 12 Q. Is that a true statement, what I just asked 13 you, that you didn't -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. In fact, from the point that you 16 started firing your weapon, one, two, three and four 17 bullets, you did not make any analysis as to whether 18 this gentleman was specifically attempting to give 19 himself up or whether he had been injured, true? 20 21 22 23 24 A. The only analysis I saw was that the movements were threatening to myself and my partner. Q. And the threat is basically that he turned his head to the side? A. Extending a dark object at me and my BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 180 1 partner, yes. 2 Q. 3 know if he was extending anything, right? 4 5 A. I'm not exactly sure what was being extended. 6 7 And we've already established that you don't Q. And you don't know who was extending it either, do you? 8 A. I'm not sure. 9 Q. Okay. 10 bullet. 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. You didn't fire a fifth bullet, did you? 13 A. Not -- no, I don't believe so. 14 Q. What made you stop shooting? 15 A. I believe at that time, noticed All right. You fired a fourth Where does it hit? 16 Mr. Castellanos not continuing to -- to -- to move, 17 to turns toward us. 18 at the moment, was neutralized. We felt the threat was stopped 19 Q. You said "we felt." 20 A. I felt. 21 way. My partner might have felt the same I'm not sure what he felt at the moment. 22 Q. You don't know what Mr. Lawryn felt, do you? 23 A. No, I don't know. 24 Q. All right. Did you talk to Mr. Lawryn after BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 181 1 your fourth bullet to say I'm going to stop shooting 2 or something like that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Had Mr. Lawryn continued to shoot while you shot your third and fourth bullet? 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Did you hear gunshots? 8 A. I -- I don't think so. 9 Q. So when did Mr. Lawryn get off 15 shots, I don't recall. 10 during what window? 11 bullet as the start and finish of that window, did he 12 shoot all 15 while you only shot four? 13 shoot before you did or after you did? 14 A. If we use your first and fourth Or did he I did have a pause between my shooting, so I 15 could not give you an estimate of the time lapse that 16 happened between those shots. 17 Q. I don't care how many seconds or minutes it 18 took you between bullets 1 -- I mean, between 2 and 19 3, because I know you told me there's a time lapse 20 there. 21 from the first bullet to the fourth bullet, did 22 Lawryn shoot before your first bullet? I'm just asking you, whatever that may be 23 A. Did Lawryn shoot before my first bullet? 24 Q. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 182 1 A. I'm not sure. 2 Q. Did Lawryn shoot between your first and 3 fourth bullet? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did he shoot after your fourth bullet? 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. So all you can tell me is that he -- you 8 know that he fired 15 bullets and that you're 9 specifically aware that he fired between your first 10 and fourth bullet, but you're not sure if he 11 continued to fire afterwards; is that a fair 12 statement? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. But in any event, you shot your 15 fourth bullet, and you decided the guy's not moving 16 so I'm not going to shoot him a fifth time, right? 17 A. I did not see the threat, yes. 18 Q. And when you say you did not see a threat, 19 that means that you saw Mr. Castellanos not moving? 20 A. He was not tracking us, yes. 21 Q. What was he doing? 22 A. Just sitting in the vehicle. 23 Q. Doing what? 24 A. Just not moving. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 183 1 Q. Where was he facing? 2 A. At this time I believe he was facing -- 3 facing north again. 4 Q. Facing forward? 5 A. Facing forward, yes. 6 Q. Same place as when it started? 7 A. I believe so. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 Is there anybody on the planet that you know of that saw Mr. Castellanos's head turn at all besides potentially you and your codefendant? 11 A. Not that I know of. 12 Q. Okay. So in order for anybody to believe 13 that Mr. Castellanos's head ever moved from looking 14 north, we would have to believe either you or your 15 codefendant only, as far as you know? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And as far as anybody on the planet who can 18 tell us that Mr. Castellanos had a gun at any point 19 in time, the only guys on the planet that we would 20 have to believe would be you and your codefendant 21 because no one else saw or found a gun, right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Did you look at any point in time in the car 24 to see where your bullets landed or your partner's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 184 1 bullets landed? 2 A. No. 3 Q. So you don't know how bad you shot up the 5 A. I don't know where my bullets landed. 6 Q. Did you ever look to see where 4 7 car? Mr. Castellanos was hit? 8 A. I did see some pictures, yes. 9 Q. Did you ever on the scene look to see where 10 Mr. Castellanos was hit? 11 A. No. 12 Q. All right. Well, after you shoot your 13 fourth bullet and you don't shoot any more, something 14 has to happen. 15 A. What did you guys do next? I got on the radio and I gave our location. 16 I said -- I said emergency. I gave our call sign. I 17 believe I said it a few times. 18 police. 19 said 1763, shots fired. 20 believe is what I said, and I gave a -- to the best I 21 could, I looked over and saw the address of where we 22 were at, and I gave the address. 23 cars over here, emergency. 24 the radio -- I don't know if it was cut out, but I Shots fired at the I believe I said -- I believe I said -- I 1763, shoots shots fired, I I said I need some I believe it went over BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 185 1 did say shots fired at the police and by the police. 2 At some point my partner did come over and ask me if 3 I was okay, if I was okay. 4 Q. Is this the one and only time or are there 5 more occasions that he asked you if you were okay? 6 Because you already told us about a time when he did 7 that. 8 9 10 11 A. That was the time that he asked me, that one time, if I was okay, if I was okay. Q. So your partner came up and asked you if you were okay after all the shooting had stopped? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. There was no occasion while the 14 shooting was ongoing, for instance between your 15 second and third bullet, where your partner came up 16 and asked you if you were okay; that didn't happen? 17 A. It didn't happen. 18 Q. Okay. Have you called for an ambulance by 19 this point in time for the guy that's been in the car 20 accident? 21 A. As soon as I had a chance on the radio when 22 I gave our location, I think my next -- my next 23 transmission after I told them where we were at, I 24 said we need an ambulance, send me an ambulance. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 186 1 2 3 4 5 Q. Was the ambulance for you and your partner who injured yourselves or somebody else? A. No. said yes. Q. They asked me, are you guys okay? I I go, we need an ambulance. Now, the shots fired at police, as you sit 6 here today, you don't even know if shots were ever 7 fired at the police; is that right? 8 9 10 11 A. I perceived -- I saw a gun. I saw the handgun and I heard two gunshots. Q. We already talked about the fact that you don't know who shot those gunshots, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. So you don't know if shots were ever fired 14 at the police, true? 15 A. Possibly, yes. 16 Q. All right. And you have come to the 17 understanding that there is no weapon ever been found 18 in the car or at the scene that is attributable to 19 Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Where did it go? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. The only guys that controlled this scene 24 Good question. I don't know. until the other police officers arrived were you and BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 187 1 your partner, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How long were you at the scene with your 4 partner after the shooting stopped before any other 5 officer arrived? 6 A. Not long. 7 Q. What does that mean? 8 A. Anywhere between -- I'm going to take a wild 9 10 11 guess. It could have been 30 seconds to 5 minutes. Q. I don't know. Okay. And during that time period after the 12 shots were fired, who first approached the vehicle 13 that Mr. Castellanos was in, you or your partner? 14 A. We approached it together. 15 Q. From which direction? 16 A. From the south. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And when you got to the vehicle, who got there first? 19 A. We approached together, side to side. 20 Q. Okay. 21 22 23 24 Who was on the left, and who was on the right? A. I was on the left, and my partner was on the right. Q. Okay. And you would have been closer to the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 188 1 front of the car, and he would be closer to the back 2 of the car, then, right? 3 A. Possibly, yes. 4 Q. Well, it is or it isn't. Is that true, that 5 you're towards the front and he's towards the back or 6 not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 Yes, that's correct. And when you get to the vehicle, what happens? A. At this point my partner tells me cover me, 11 cover me. 12 Mr. Castellanos. 13 and he proceeds to handcuff Mr. Castellanos. 14 15 Q. I still had my gun out, drawn, pointed at Okay. And my partner holsters his weapon, Mr. Castellanos was not moving at this time, right? 16 A. No. 17 Q. He was not moving? 18 A. He was not moving. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. We don't know -- we don't know if he's -- we And why handcuff him? 21 have to secure the situation. We don't know if he's 22 sitting on a weapon. 23 weapon at his -- at his hands or has a weapon in 24 his -- within reach. We don't know if he has a So for our safety and the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 189 1 safety of everybody approaching the scene, we need to 2 cuff him. 3 4 Q. Okay. And when his hands were cuffed, did you see that happen? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did Mr. Lawryn grab his hands and cuff A. I believe he grabbed his wrist area, I'm not 7 him? 8 9 10 11 sure. Q. Okay. Mr. Lawryn just fired 15 shots, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you know by your experience that that 14 means that Mr. Lawryn had gunpowder residue on his 15 hands, right? 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. I don't know. I'm not an expert on gunshot residue. Q. Okay. Well, you've been a policeman for how long now? 22 A. 16 years. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Yes. You've taken some shooting classes? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 190 1 2 Q. You've taken some police work classes, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Generally do you have the understanding that 5 when somebody fires a gun, they get gun residue on 6 their hands? 7 8 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you actually taught people how to 11 preserve a scene, I think you told me; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And preserving a scene in a shooting case 14 includes making sure that somebody that you think 15 might have been the shooter, that the hands are 16 tested to see if there's gunpowder residue on the 17 hands; you know that, right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And you've taught people that that are 20 actually police officers and perspective candidates, 21 right? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Okay. 24 So you know full well that your partner, shooting 15 bullets, is going to have BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 191 1 gunpowder residue all over his hands, right? 2 A. Possibly, yes. 3 Q. Well, it's not possible. 4 right? 5 6 7 It's a fact, MR. HURD: Objection, incomplete hypothetical. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 8 Q. Is your partner wearing gloves? 9 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 10 Q. Okay. 11 So if he's not wearing gloves, he's going to have gunpowder residue on his hands, right? 12 A. Possibly. 13 Q. Okay. 14 that evening? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you have gunpowder residue on your 17 It's not a hundred percent sure. Did you shoot your weapon four times hands? 18 A. I'm pretty sure possibly, yes. 19 Q. Well, were you tested for it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Why not? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Is it typical police protocol to test 24 anybody who's fired a weapon for gunpowder residue in BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 192 1 a shooting case? 2 A. I don't believe so. 3 Q. Well, when you teach it in school on how to 4 preserve the scene, isn't the next step that the 5 police get some swabs or tests done so that they can 6 preserve the gunpowder residue evidence? 7 A. If they're trying to find out if the person 8 fired a weapon, which I admitted to the investigators 9 that I did fire my weapon. 10 11 12 There's no need to do a gunshot residue. Q. Okay. So they didn't do any gunpowder residue on you? 13 A. There's no need. 14 Q. My question is simply they didn't do a test 15 on you. 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. All right. 18 Do you know if they tested your partner? 19 A. Not that I'm aware. 20 Q. All right. Is it possible that your 21 partner, while handcufting -- handcuffing 22 Mr. Castellanos transferred some gunpowder residue 23 onto the person of Mr. Castellanos while he was 24 handcuffing him? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 193 1 2 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 3 A. I wouldn't know. 4 Q. Okay. 5 In any event, you said that you saw the handcuffing occur, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. When your partner took the hands 8 of Mr. Castellanos, his hands were empty, 9 Mr. Castellanos's hands, right? 10 A. I'm not sure. 11 Q. Well, let me just get this straight. You're 12 involved in a shooting where at least 19 bullets are 13 fired. 14 wounded. 15 first time. 16 means you're pointing a gun at this guy to make sure 17 that he doesn't injure your partner, and you have 18 some thought that the guy might have a weapon? The person's been hit three times, fatally You're now approaching the car for the You're covering your partner, which 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Yet you don't know if his hands were empty 21 or not when your partner is grabbing for his hands to 22 handcuff him; is that your statement? 23 24 A. I can't tell for a fact if he was grasping something in his hands. My focus is Mr. Castellanos BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 194 1 at that moment. 2 Q. Well, he can't hurt Mr. Lawryn with his 3 eyes, can he? 4 right? He's got to hurt him with his hands, 5 A. I'm focusing, again, on Mr. Castellanos. 6 Q. I understand. Mr. Castellanos, if he was 7 going to hurt your partner while you're covering your 8 partner -- and you know what that means by your 9 police experience -- you know that his hands where 10 the things that you should be focused on to see if 11 Mr. Castellanos does anything with them, right? 12 A. Possibly, yes. 13 Q. Well, if you're not doing that, you're 14 certainly not covering your partner because you're 15 not watching the guy's hands, which is where he could 16 hurt somebody, right? 17 A. He could head-butt my partner. 18 Q. Okay. But if he's going to hurt him with a 19 gun or a weapon or some sort, he's going to do it 20 with his hands, right? 21 A. Most likely, yes. 22 Q. Okay. If you asked your partner to cover 23 you while you handcuffed somebody and there was any 24 thought of any kind that there was an object or a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 195 1 weapon or anything, you sure as heck would want your 2 partner to focus on that person's hands while they 3 were covering you; would you agree? 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. HURD: Objection, speculation, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. I would like -- yeah, I would like him just to take a look at the hands, sure. Q. Okay. And when you were covering Mr. Lawryn 10 while he handcuffed Mr. Castellanos, you can tell us 11 of nothing that Mr. Castellanos had in either one of 12 his hands at that time; is that correct? 13 14 15 A. I don't recall him having anything in his hands. Q. Thank you, sir. You also mentioned that 16 part of the reason that you handcuff someone like 17 that after a shooting is you want to make sure that 18 they don't have a weapon within reach, right? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. What did you do to determine whether there 21 was a weapon within reach, if anything? 22 A. Secure his hands. 23 Q. To each other? 24 A. To each other. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 196 1 2 Q. Beyond that, his hands were left at his waist hanging on his legs. They're handcuffed -- 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. -- as he bled to death, right? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Well, you do know that Mr. Castellanos's 7 hands were cuffed and they were left basically 8 sitting in his lap, right? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. And did Mr. Castellanos die at the scene? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. But he was alive when you guys handcuffed 13 him, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you get any medical attention for him 16 between the time that you handcuffed him and the time 17 that he died? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What happened in term of medical attention? 20 A. We had an ambulance on the scene almost 21 immediately. 22 Q. And did the ambulance -- you said it was 23 somewhere between 30 seconds and five minutes, and 24 now the ambulance comes immediately. What does BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 197 1 2 3 4 "immediately" mean in that context? A. Well, not soon after, that he was cuffed, the ambulance arrived. Q. All right. Well, I would assume -- maybe 5 I'm wrong -- but after you shot your fourth bullet, 6 you probably wanted to get over there and get him 7 handcuffed pretty quickly, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So did you go immediately over to the car, 10 the two of you, and handcuff him right away after you 11 shot your fourth shot? 12 13 A. I don't know the time span that passed from that fourth shot. 14 Q. Give me your best estimate. 15 A. It's very difficult to give you a time. 16 Q. Well, what were you doing between shooting 17 that we can track it by your movements? You shot 18 your fourth shot. 19 the two of you walking over and handcuffing him; is 20 that a correct statement? And the next thing you remember is 21 A. Could you repeat that question, please? 22 Q. Sure. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Somewhere down the line you and your partner You shot your fourth shot. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 198 1 walk over side by side and handcuff this gentleman 2 while you cover your partner, right? 3 A. That's correct, yes. 4 Q. What did you do between shooting your fourth 5 shot and walking over with your partner to handcuff 6 Mr. Castellanos? 7 A. Like I said, I -- my partner came over and 8 said, hey, are you okay. Got on the radio, called 9 emergency call sign, shots fired, did it a few times, 10 gave our address of our location. 11 that I requested an ambulance, and I made it clear -- 12 they asked us if we were okay. 13 an ambulance. 14 Q. 15 And shortly after I said yes, send me And you did all that before you guys handcuffed him? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So where did you get the radio from? 18 A. It's on my person. 19 Q. Okay. So you made all those radio calls 20 before you approached the vehicle to handcuff 21 Mr. Castellanos? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where were you standing? 24 A. Where was I standing? Probably by the curb, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 199 1 2 on the sidewalk, possibly. Q. All right. So all that time that you're 3 standing there making those radio calls before you 4 guys approach the vehicle, Mr. Castellanos is just 5 sitting in the car doing nothing but looking north, 6 right? 7 8 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 9 A. He was in the vehicle. 10 Q. And he's not doing anything. 11 He's sitting there looking north? 12 A. Sitting in the vehicle, yes. 13 Q. No communication with him during that time? 14 A. No communication. 15 Q. Okay. 16 After you make the radio calls, then you decide to go handcuff him? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Why not handcuff him first? 19 A. You want to let people know what's going on. 20 Q. I thought you told me that your job was to 21 22 secure the scene? A. You need to have -- at the moment I wanted 23 to let people know that shots were being fired at us, 24 and I wanted them to know where we were at. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 200 1 2 Q. Okay. Well, you told the people on the radio that you were okay -- excuse me. 3 You told the people you were okay and you 4 wanted some backup and you wanted an ambulance and 5 that shots were fired by you and at you, and you told 6 them all that before you secured the person that you 7 guys shot? 8 A. That's correct, yes. 9 Q. Okay. So during that time that you're on 10 the radio, this guy, Mr. Castellanos, is sitting in 11 the car and you have yet to approach him to see what 12 damage you have done to him with the bullets? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. Okay. When he's handcuffed and his hands 15 are handcuffed together in his lap, do you have to 16 cuff him to the wheel or to a fixed object to keep 17 him from being mobile? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Why not? 20 A. We did not -- my partner did not -- we just 21 cuffed him, his two hands together, not to any fixed 22 object, no. 23 Q. 24 Okay. If you truly thought there was a gun in the car at some point in time, would it be BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 201 1 important to prevent Mr. Castellanos from being 2 mobile enough to grab a weapon that might be within 3 reach? 4 A. Can you restate that question, please? 5 Q. If you truly thought there was a gun in the 6 car, wouldn't it be important for you guys to 7 immobilize Mr. Castellanos by handcuffing him to a 8 fixed object or getting him out of the vehicle so 9 that he might not reach that gun that you think was 10 there? 11 A. Not necessarily. 12 Q. Is it okay in your mind, then -- you shot 13 this guy a bunch of times. 14 has unloaded a clip and then gone on to a second one, 15 and now you've handcuffed this gentleman who's still 16 alive. 17 car, and you're going to let him sit there with his 18 hands cuffed together but not restrained to any other 19 object when there may be a weapon in the car; is 20 that -- 21 22 23 24 You both -- one of you You say that you saw a gun that was in the MR. HURD: Objection. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. -- the plan? MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 202 1 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 2 Q. Is that plan? 3 A. That was the situation. 4 That's the way it was handled at the moment, yes. 5 Q. Okay. So if you really thought there was a 6 gun in there, wouldn't you be concerned that he could 7 grab the gun and then continue to shoot you now that 8 you're standing 2 feet in front of him? 9 10 A. If there was a gun in the car, we'd be very concerned, yes. 11 Q. Okay. But you weren't concerned, were you? 12 A. I was concerned. 13 Q. You didn't look for a gun, did you? 14 A. I'm looking at his hands, yes. 15 Q. You didn't look -- you said that it's 16 dangerous if there's weapon within reach. 17 look and search the car, you've already told me that, 18 for a weapon; isn't that right? 19 20 A. You didn't I didn't look underneath the car seats. didn't look in the back seats, no. 21 Q. You didn't look in any of the seats, did 23 A. I did look into the vehicle, yes. 24 Q. Okay. 22 I you? Did you look in the passenger seat? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 203 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you look on the floor of car? 3 A. Quick glance, yes. 4 Q. Did you see a gun anywhere? 5 A. Not to my view, no. 6 Q. You're the only guy who's approaching that 7 car with your partner immediately after the gunshots. 8 There's nowhere else anybody could be that's related 9 to that car, right? 10 11 A. not too -- 12 13 We had other vehicles arrive on the scene Q. But they're not out of their cars yet, are they? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So it's just you, your partner, and a guy 16 who's dying that's handcuffed sitting in the car? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And you didn't see a gun that didn't belong 19 to you or your partner anywhere in sight? 20 A. I didn't see a gun, no. 21 Q. Where did this blue steel gun go? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Wasn't it important to you when you shoot a 24 guy and he dies on the scene, that if you really BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 204 1 believed he had a gun that you would look in the car 2 to find that gun until you found it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You didn't do that, did you? 5 A. We had other cars on the scene. 6 Q. What were they doing that was so important? 7 A. Probably looking in the car. 8 Q. You said "probably looking in the car"? 9 A. I'm sure securing the scene, securing the 11 Q. It's your scene, isn't it? 12 A. I was put into an ambulance along with my 10 13 car. partner shortly after the shooting. We were injured. 14 Q. You weren't dying, were you? 15 A. We were injured. 16 I was bleeding. I thought I had been shot in the head, yes. 17 Q. You had a couple of abrasions, right? 18 A. I was bleeding from the head. 19 my head, yes. 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 I had pain to You had a self-inflicted wound to the head from when you jumped on the ground, right? A. Again, I had pain and I was bleeding from the head, yes. Q. Okay. Is there anything that would have BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 205 1 prevented you from looking in the vehicle at that 2 point in time to search for a weapon? 3 A. I did manage to glimpse inside the vehicle. 4 Q. Okay. 5 6 7 8 9 Is there any reason you guys didn't take Mr. Castellanos out of the vehicle? A. Shortly afterwards the paramedics were -- were doing -- providing care. Q. When you teach recruits and police officers about securing a scene, if you were to teach a 10 recruit about a person involved in a shooting with 11 police that the recruit thought for some reason that 12 person had a weapon and you now have shot the person, 13 would you instruct that recruit to get that person 14 out of the car and put them down on the ground so 15 that you could monitor them and they would be away 16 from any potential object that could hurt you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Why not? 19 A. I would instruct them to secure that 20 possible threat, being the person. 21 Q. So handcuff him? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Leave him in the same seat that you believe 24 he may have had a gun in? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 206 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Not find the gun and let him continue to sit 3 there, right? 4 A. Possibly, yes. 5 Q. Is that safe? 6 A. In our situation, that was our decision. 7 Q. Is that police procedure, or is that 8 something you guys made up? 9 A. We did not make it up. 10 Q. So is that police procedure, that you would 11 leave somebody sitting in the same chair that 12 supposedly had some gun? 13 14 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. Every situation is different. 16 Q. I get it. I'm talking about this situation, 17 in saying that someone has a gun. 18 person. 19 to a particular object. 20 seat that you believe there was apparently a gun, and 21 you let them continue to sit there until the 22 ambulance comes, right? 23 24 A. You handcuff them. You come up to the You don't handcuff them You let them sit in the same We secured his hands, and we waited for the ambulance to show up. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 207 1 Q. And what did you do while you were waiting? 2 A. Just, you know, keep an eye on -- keep an 3 eye on Mr. Castellanos. 4 Q. Where were your hands? 5 A. My hands? 6 Q. Yeah, while you waited for the ambulance. 7 A. My hands were probably holstering my weapon. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. In any event, while you waited for the So where were your partner's hands? 11 ambulance, both of you put your guns back in your 12 holster and waited? 13 A. Most likely. 14 Q. Did you or didn't you? 15 A. I holstered my weapon. 16 Q. Did your partner holster his weapon? 17 A. I believe so. 18 Q. In fact, he holstered his weapon before he 19 handcuffed Mr. Castellanos, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So you guys are both standing, hands 22 swinging free, no gun in your hand while you got a 23 guy sitting in the front seat that believe had a gun 24 in that same front seat, and you just let him sit BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 208 1 there; is that your testimony? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that in compliance with police procedure? 4 5 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Okay. 8 You've been a police officer for how many years now? 9 A. 16 years. 10 Q. So this happened about, what, 14 years into 11 your career? 12 A. Approximately, yes. 13 Q. All right. You know as of 14 years into 14 your career that if you shoot somebody on the job, it 15 would be much better if that person actually had a 16 gun, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So having shot some guy 15 times with your 19 partner and four more times with you, it would occur 20 to you -- 21 22 23 24 MR. HURD: Shot at. Go ahead. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. It would occur to you that it would be important to know if there's actually a gun there, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 209 1 right? 2 A. It would be good to know, yes. 3 Q. And, in fact, if there was a gun there, you 4 probably wouldn't be sitting here, right? 5 A. Most likely, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 8 9 You didn't bother to look under the seats, around the car at all, right? A. I did not go underneath the seat. couldn't go into the backseat. I I glanced into the 10 vehicle passenger seat, looked inside at the floor. 11 That was the extent of my search. 12 Q. Where did you look in the passenger seat 13 from, outside the driver's door or outside the 14 passenger door? 15 A. Outside the driver's door. 16 Q. Okay. And how did you get your head into 17 the passenger's seat when Mr. Castellanos is sitting 18 in the front seat? 19 A. You can -- from a passenger's-side door you 20 can look inside and see the passenger's seat. 21 can see a little bit of the floor. 22 Q. You I don't know if you misspoke or if you're 23 giving me a new story. You said from the 24 passenger's-side door, and you told me -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 210 1 A. I'm sorry. From the driver's side. I 2 didn't -- from the driver's-side door I can look in 3 and see the passenger's-side seat, and I can also see 4 somewhat of the passenger's-side floor area. 5 Q. Okay. Well, you would agree with me that 6 the passenger's-side floor in this tiny car with a 7 stick shift is reachable by anybody who's driving 8 that car, right? 9 A. Possibly, yes. 10 Q. So if you can't see the passenger's-side 11 floor and you think there may be a gun in the car, 12 that's a pretty good place to put it because the guy 13 could actually reach it? 14 A. Could reach it possibly. 15 Q. But you didn't even look there? 16 A. I did look into the vehicle. 17 Q. You didn't look into the whole 18 passenger's-side floor because you could only see 19 some of it from outside the driver's-side door; is 20 that correct? 21 A. 22 23 24 I couldn't inspect the entire vehicle floor, that's correct. Q. Okay. And even not inspecting the entire vehicle floor, you decided it's okay to holster your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 211 1 weapon and wait around for the ambulance, right? 2 A. We secured his hands, and I felt -- I 3 felt -- I felt safe at the moment, yes, secured his 4 hands. 5 6 Q. Because you had a pretty good idea he wasn't going to have a weapon to shoot you with, right? 7 A. No. He was secure. We secured his hands. 8 He handcuffed his hands, so I felt that we disabled 9 the threat, which is his hands. 10 11 Q. Okay. I felt safe, yes. When you shoot a handgun, do you ever shoot with one hand holding the other? 12 A. Sometimes. 13 Q. And if you shoot with one hand holding the 14 other, just kind of as your hands are on the table 15 there, you can do that with handcuffs on, right? 16 A. Possibly, yes. 17 Q. Okay. So securing a guy's hands if you 18 really believe he's got a weapon, by simply 19 handcuffing him, doesn't really secure anything, does 20 it? 21 A. It does secure his hands from him being able 22 to maybe reach into a -- you know, maybe a pocket or 23 something, so ... 24 Q. It doesn't stop anybody from firing a gun if BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 212 1 2 3 4 5 they actually had one, right? A. If you're standing right next to the person, you can keep a good eye on that person. Q. Yeah, but you've got your gun in your holster now, right? 6 A. Well, you can always draw your weapon. 7 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to state that you 8 would be motivated in a police shooting case to know 9 that there was a gun in the car? 10 11 12 A. Would it be fair for me knowing there would be a gun in the car? Q. No. Would it be fair to state that you 13 would be motivated or you would like to know there 14 was a gun in the car in the event of an actual police 15 shooting rather than no gun in the car and you just 16 shot some guy who doesn't have a gun? 17 MR. HURD: I don't know what the question 18 means, but if you know. 19 MR. O'CONNOR: 20 You don't have to. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 21 Q. Go ahead. 22 A. The -- if you have an armed person in a car, 23 yes, it would be a better situation than having -- 24 not finding a weapon, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 213 1 Q. Because otherwise you just killed an unarmed 2 man, right? 3 A. Possibly, yes. 4 Q. Okay. Now, you know afterwards from seeing 5 these reports that detectives did an exhaustive 6 search, in their words, of this vehicle and the scene 7 for any weapon, and they found no weapon of any kind; 8 is that correct? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. All right. 11 Yet the reports all say that you told the detectives that there was a handgun, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. If there was no handgun found at 14 the scene, then there are two conclusions that can be 15 drawn from that. 16 you're not telling the truth about the existence of 17 the handgun. 18 from that scenario; is that correct? One, the handgun evaporated. Two, Those are two things that can be drawn 19 A. That's incorrect. 20 Q. What else could there be? 21 A. There was another -- possibly another gun. 22 I just don't know where that gun ended up. 23 Q. Another gun? 24 A. The gun that we're speaking of, the gun that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 214 1 2 I saw, I can't tell you what happened to that gun. Q. I know that. And my question is, if you -- 3 if you say there's a gun there and -- first of all, 4 people that investigate these kind of things, do you 5 believe they're experienced guys? 6 A. I believe so, yes. 7 Q. Do you believe they're trustworthy guys? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you believe that they would stick up for 10 a police officer, a fellow police officer, if in fact 11 they could legitimately and legally and they would do 12 their best job to find evidence that might free you 13 of any wrongdoing? 14 MR. HURD: 15 compound question. 16 17 BY THE WITNESS: A. 18 19 Can you restate that, please? MR. O'CONNOR: Can you read that back, please? 20 21 Objection, foundation and (Record read as requested.) BY THE WITNESS: 22 A. They just want to do their best job, period. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And their best job would be to investigate the scene and find a weapon if there's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 215 1 one there? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. All right. We're talking about a guy who's 4 sitting in his front seat from the time that you see 5 him, never leaves the front seat, never even attempts 6 to open the door. That's Mr. Castellanos, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. He's the guy that you claim that you saw 9 10 11 holding a gun, right? A. I saw Mr. Castellanos turn, and I saw a gun being pointed at me, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. No. 14 Q. He -- he's inside a contained vehicle, 15 And he never left the vehicle? right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So if there's a gun, it's going to be in 18 that car? 19 A. Possibly. 20 Q. Well, the only other option is, how far can 21 the guy throw it after you shot him with 19 bullets, 22 right? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. All right. But the police did a great job BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 216 1 of investigating, as you understand it, right? 2 A. To the best of my knowledge. 3 Q. And using their best skill and attention, 4 the police did not find a weapon anywhere around the 5 scene or in the vehicle after an exhaustive search, 6 in their words; is that true? 7 A. As far as I know, yes. 8 Q. So we can draw two conclusions from that: 9 10 There's no gun and you didn't see a gun or the gun evaporated into thin air, right? 11 A. No. I don't know -- 12 Q. What am I wrong about? 13 A. You're wrong about there was no gun and 14 you're wrong about the gun evaporate into thin air. 15 As far as the whereabouts of the gun, I don't know. 16 Q. Would it have been within your control and 17 authority, and your partner's, to look until you 18 found that gun before you left the scene? 19 20 A. We -- in our conditions that were due to our injuries, we were put in an ambulance right away. 21 Q. Did you have a life-threatening injury? 22 A. I was bleeding from the head. 23 Q. I understand that. 24 asking. But I mean, I'm just Was it life-threatening, or did you need a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 217 1 Band-Aid? 2 A. I thought I was just shot in the head. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. No, thank God. 5 Q. Okay. 6 injury? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you guys actually stand and take some 9 But you weren't? Was your partner a life-threatening photographs that night after the shooting? 10 A. Did I? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Anybody take any photos of you in your vest 14 and your clothes and stuff? 15 A. Evidence technicians. 16 Q. When did they do that? 17 A. At the area. 18 Q. How long after the shooting? 19 A. I'm not sure. 20 Q. Give me your best estimate. 21 A. It had to be hours after. 22 Q. Okay. So within hours afterwards, you 23 looked as good as you might have looked in those 24 photographs. That was your condition as photographed BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 at that time, right? A. and bandaged up and cleaned up, yes. Q. So after they give you a little bit of alcohol and a Band-Aid, right? A. After -- after being treated and cleaned up with gauze and stuff like that, yeah. Q. What did they do at the hospital for you? Tell me what treatment you got. 10 11 That's after being treated at the hospital MR. HURD: I'm going to object to -- he has a private interest in his medical treatment. 12 MR. O'CONNOR: I don't think asking if they 13 gave him alcohol and a Band-Aid violates 14 anybody's privacy. 15 let him answer it, just tell me and I'll -- 16 MR. HURD: 17 MR. O'CONNOR: 18 19 20 But if you're not going to I'm not going to let him answer. Okay. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. When you left the hospital, what medical devices were you wearing? 21 A. None. 22 Q. Not even a Band-Aid? 23 A. Oh, yeah. 24 I thought you meant like a cane or a neck brace or something like that. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 219 1 2 Q. No, nothing serious. Were you wearing a Band-Aid? 3 A. I had -- I had a bandage I believe, yes. 4 Q. Where? 5 A. I believe on my knee. 6 Q. Did you have a Band-Aid on your head? 7 A. I'm not sure. 8 Q. Okay. 9 I don't recall. Aside from you being so concerned about your health after the shooting, is there any 10 other reason why you got in the ambulance as opposed 11 to secure the scene and find the gun? 12 13 14 15 16 MR. HURD: Objection, compound nature of the question. BY THE WITNESS: A. I wanted to make sure I didn't have any additional holes in my body. 17 Q. Did you look around? 18 A. I patted myself down, but I also had 19 20 21 Did you feel anything? professionals, healthcare people, check me out. Q. You said you had about five minutes until the ambulance showed up at the scene, right? 22 A. I'm not exactly sure how much time passed. 23 Q. While you were at the scene, did you check 24 yourself out or ask your partner to look at you and BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 220 1 see if there was any holes in you somewhere? 2 A. I patted myself down. 3 Q. What did you find? 4 A. I found blood on my hands. 5 Q. Whose blood? 6 A. My blood. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. From my head. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Blood to my hand. Where did that come from? What else did you fund? I had a bloody knee. I 11 just felt a trickling of blood come down the side of 12 my head and pain to my head. 13 Q. What visible injuries did your partner have? 14 A. I know he had -- his knee was scraped, I 15 16 believe. Q. Okay. Did you or your partner tell any 17 detectives that you were in fact shot and hit by a 18 bullet? 19 A. I may have mentioned. 20 Q. Did you or didn't you mention it? 21 A. I told him I was shot at. 22 Q. There's a big difference if you told someone 23 you're shot at versus telling somebody that you were 24 actually shot, being hit by a bullet. Which did you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 221 1 tell the detectives? 2 A. I wasn't sure if I was shot. 3 Q. You told the detectives you weren't sure if 4 you were shot? 5 A. I told them I was shot at. 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. I don't believe so. 8 Q. So if there's a report that says that you Did you tell them you were hit? 9 told the detectives that you were hit by a bullet 10 that was shot at you, is the detective lying about 11 that or were you lying to the detective? 12 13 14 MR. HURD: BY THE WITNESS: A. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't know. 15 16 17 18 (Reporter clarifying.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You did tell your partner that you were hit, meaning that you were shot, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Objection, foundation. Did your partner tell anybody that he was shot and hit by a bullet? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did the police take photographs of you in 24 your outfits that you were wearing that night to see BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 222 1 if you had any bullet holes in your stuff? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And that was because you didn't have any 4 bullet holes in your -- in your gear that you were 5 wearing; is that right? 6 7 8 9 A. I don't know what the pictures were taken Q. Okay. for. Well, you've been a police officer at that time for 14 years? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. You're complying with an investigation at 12 the time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Anybody tell you why they're taking photos 15 of you? 16 A. To take pictures probably of my injuries. 17 Q. Okay. 18 19 20 21 Why did they need pictures of all your -- your bulletproof vest and all that stuff on? A. Maybe the vest to show that I was -- had a vest that displayed a Chicago Police badge on it. Q. Anybody ever tell you that it was to show 22 that you did not have any bullet holes in your 23 vest -- 24 A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 223 1 2 Q. -- when you were making a claim of being shot? 3 A. No, that was never said. 4 Q. The fact is, you never had any bullet holes 5 in any of your clothing or your person; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Not that I know of, no. 8 Q. You never had any bullet holes in your 9 10 partner's clothing or his person as a result of this occurrence; is that true? 11 A. Can you restate that question? 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 Q. Is he still your partner? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How long have you guys been partners? 17 A. I'm going to guess maybe four years. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Do you guys ever sit around in the car and 21 Did your partner get shot? So two years before, two years since? talk about what happened in this shooting? 22 A. Sometimes. 23 Q. You never asked him in four years' time -- 24 in two years since the occurrence specifically, hey, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 224 1 man, did you ever get shot when we were shooting up 2 Mr. Castellanos? 3 MR. HURD: Objection to the argument- -- 4 argumentative nature of the question and 5 compound. 6 BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. We don't know. 8 Q. "We don't know," what does that mean? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You don't know if you ever asked him if he 11 got shot? 12 13 A. Did you ever -- If I ever asked him if he's been shot? I have never asked him if he's been shot, no. 14 15 That's any question. Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you that he was shot? 16 A. No. 17 Q. After you telling your partner twice that 18 you had been shot at the scene, did you ever tell 19 your partner at any other time that you'd been shot? 20 A. No. 21 Q. The police reports indicate that you told 22 detectives that you heard two loud reports, is what 23 is reflected in the record. 24 those words? Do you remember saying BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 225 1 2 A. I don't recall saying those words. I don't remember. 3 Q. Do you know what a loud report is? 4 A. A loud report is usually used to -- would be 5 called a gunshot, by "report." 6 Q. So is that police language or police code 7 for gunshot? 8 A. Could be police language. 9 Q. All right. So just so we're clear, you are 10 specifically saying when you told these detectives in 11 the reports that you heard two loud reports, that you 12 heard two actual gunshots? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. But again, you don't know if that was your 15 partner shooting or somebody else? 16 A. I couldn't tell you. 17 Q. Okay. I don't know. Well, if your partner shot the first 18 two shots that you heard before you started shooting, 19 then the truth of the matter would be that 20 Mr. Castellanos did not shoot before you shot at him, 21 correct? 22 A. I wouldn't know. 23 Q. Well, there's only three people there. 24 Castellanos didn't shoot before you did and your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 226 1 partner shot the first two bullets, that would mean 2 that Castellanos didn't shoot before you shot at him? 3 MR. HURD: 4 facts, right? 5 6 You're asking him to assume those MR. O'CONNOR: Yeah. BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. An assumption, possibly, yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 Well, there's only three sources of bullets that you know of. 10 A. I understand. 11 Q. Okay. Actually, there might be four if you 12 believe your theory that there might be some other 13 car in the car that vanished with a gun. 14 Mr. Castellanos or this other hypothetical person 15 that you didn't report or see or chase or look for 16 didn't shoot first and your partner shot the first 17 two bullets, then Mr. Castellanos would never have 18 fired any bullets at you before you shot at him, 19 true? 20 A. Possibly, yeah. 21 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. So if When you go up 22 to the car, Mr. Lawryn handcuffs Mr. Castellanos. 23 You still think in your mind that you don't know if 24 you saw Castellanos pointing anything at you or BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 227 1 whether it was somebody else's arm and there may be 2 some other guy somewhere or other person somewhere. 3 That's all in your head, right? 4 A. That's all in my head? 5 Q. Yeah. 6 time, right? 7 A. 8 At the time? I don't recall what I was thinking at the time, no. 9 10 I think you're thinking that at the Q. Did you ever look for another person at any time? 11 A. At that moment, no. 12 Q. So is it possible in your mind that there 13 might have been some other person that was somewhere 14 else out of the car by that point in time or might 15 still have a gun that could shoot you or your 16 partner? 17 A. Not at the moment, no. 18 Q. It's not possible that there was such a 19 person? 20 A. It is possible there was such a person. 21 Q. What did you do about it? As a seasoned 22 14-year police officer on the tac unit in 17, which 23 is a busy district, what did you do about that? 24 A. At the moment my focus was Mr. Castellanos BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 228 1 because he's the threat. 2 have in front of us. 3 Q. Okay. I'm focusing on what we So if you thought there was any other 4 threat, some other hypothetical person and some other 5 hypothetical weapon, you could still be killed by 6 that person if they in fact existed, but you did 7 nothing to find that hypothetical person or that 8 hypothetical weapon; is that correct? 9 A. At the moment I dealt with the problem that 10 was at hand. 11 Q. Is it a correct statement that I just asked 12 you? You did nothing to find this hypothetical 13 person even though, if there was such a person, they 14 could be equally as much of a threat to you or more 15 so, right? 16 A. 17 person. 18 Q. At the moment I wasn't looking for another Did your partner look for any other 19 hypothetical person from the car or other 20 hypothetical weapon? 21 A. I'm not sure. 22 Q. Did you ever tell your partner, hey, I think 23 24 I might have seen another arm? A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 229 1 Q. Why not? Wouldn't that be valuable to save 2 both of your lives if there was some other 3 hypothetical person out there? 4 5 A. Like I said, I saw an arm. I don't know what was attached to it. 6 Q. So you know what an arm looks like, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. You saw a human arm? There's only two possibilities. 11 it's either Castellanos's arm, or there's someone 12 else, right? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 someone else? 16 A. Not at the moment. 17 Q. When did you come up with this? One, And you thought there might be If you 18 didn't think it at the moment, when did you come up 19 with that? 20 A. After becoming aware further down that the 21 passenger door was open and seeing distinct 22 bloodstains on the passenger seat at a time -- 23 further time down the line, the possibility of being 24 a person in that passenger side was a possibility. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 230 1 2 Q. And when did you discover all this blood in the passenger seat and the passenger door open? 3 A. After the fact, after. 4 Q. When? 5 A. Possibly when I -- when I started seeing 6 photographs of the scene. 7 Q. 8 afterwards? 9 A. 10 So you're talking weeks, months, years How long? No, not years. Possibly -- well, actually, yeah, more like years. 11 Q. So you just told us all about now for a 12 while that you're looking in the car before you're 13 about to shoot and try and kill somebody that you saw 14 an arm of another person. 15 A. At the moment I did not know if that arm was 16 attached to Mr. Castellanos or is that someone else's 17 arm. 18 Q. Okay. And now you're telling me that years 19 later, because you saw some photographs, it occurred 20 to you for the first time there may be some other 21 person? 22 A. It's a possibility, yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Well, which is it, sir? You either thought about it a couple years later, that there BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 231 1 might be another person, or you actually thought 2 about it as you testified here under oath that there 3 may have been another person in the car there because 4 you saw another arm. 5 6 7 8 MR. HURD: prior testimony. A. Can you restate the question, please? MR. O'CONNOR: (Record read as requested.) 12 14 15 Can I ask you to try and restate that? 11 13 Go ahead, you can answer. BY THE WITNESS: 9 10 Objection, compound, misstates MR. HURD: I'm going to repeat the objection, compound question. Go ahead. BY THE WITNESS: A. Okay. At the moment of the shooting, I 16 wasn't really searching for a secondary person. My 17 focus was Mr. Castellanos. 18 information, the probability of that happening, of 19 being a second person in the vehicle, was a great 20 possibility, and that's how I came to that 21 conclusion. 22 Q. After finding more But at the time of the occurrence when you 23 were shooting at Mr. Castellanos, as you told us, it 24 had occurred to you that was another arm in the car BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 232 1 that you thought may actually be another person? 2 A. I said I saw an arm. 3 Q. Right. 4 A. I couldn't tell you if the arm was attached 5 to Mr. Castellanos or if the arm was attached to a 6 different person, so I don't know. 7 8 Q. So at the time you thought there may have been another person in the vehicle? 9 A. At the time -- if you're asking me if I saw 10 Mr. Castellanos's arm attached to his body the day of 11 the shooting, I would have to tell you I didn't see 12 that. 13 turning. 14 I saw an arm, and I saw Mr. Castellanos Q. So you did not see Mr. Castellanos 15 specifically pointing an object out the window at you 16 because you did not see that as his arm, right? 17 A. 18 I saw an arm. 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 I saw Mr. Castellanos turning his body, and Please answer my question, okay? MR. HURD: He is answering your question. Let him finish. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Go right ahead. MR. O'CONNOR: It's nonresponsive, and I'll BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 233 1 2 be happy to address it afterwards. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 3 Q. But go ahead, sir. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. You saw an arm that you did not specifically Ask me the question again, please. 6 identify as being Mr. Castellanos's arm that was 7 extended holding an object that you did not 8 specifically identify as an actual weapon, true? 9 10 A. I saw Mr. Castellanos turn towards me, and I saw a handgun. 11 Q. Now you saw a handgun? 12 A. When Mr. Castellanos turned his body towards 13 14 me initially, I saw a weapon being pointed at me. Q. Okay. Now, you know that you've been 15 telling me for a while that there was another time 16 after you dove for cover and scratched yourself on 17 the ground and got up that Mr. Castellanos turned 18 towards you and that you saw an arm holding an 19 object? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. All right. 22 That's the arm that I'm talking about. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Okay. That arm you did not attribute BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 234 1 necessarily to Mr. Castellanos, and you could not 2 identify that as a gun. 3 object. 4 A. That's correct, yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 You identified that as an So there's two different time periods we're talking about here. 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. The second time period you thought there may 9 be another person in the car because there was 10 another arm that you did not attribute specifically 11 to Mr. Castellanos? 12 A. Not at the moment. 13 Q. If Castellanos did not have a gun in the 14 car, as was no gun found, then you would agree with 15 me that Castellanos could not have fired any bullets 16 at you or your partner, true? 17 18 A. If there was no gun found in the car does not mean that he did not fire any bullets at me, no. 19 Q. What would he have fired them with? 20 A. A gun is not -- has not been found. 21 Q. Did they find any bullets from any gun other 22 than yours -- your gun or your partners at the scene? 23 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Were there any shell casings found from BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 235 1 anybody's gun besides yours or your partner's at the 2 scene? 3 A. Not that I know of. 4 Q. When you fired your weapon, did the shell 5 casings fall to the ground? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. That's what they do, right? 8 9 Gravity takes over and it hits the ground, right? A. Depends on the type of gun. As I would 10 think you would know, a revolver doesn't really have 11 shell casings. 12 Q. Okay. In this instance, this blue steel gun 13 that you're talking about, is that the kind of gun 14 that would have shell casings? 15 A. Yes, but it depends on type of gun. 16 Q. Okay. 17 Were there any shell casings found in the car? 18 A. I'm not sure. 19 Q. You would expect if somebody was firing a 20 weapon in the car that there would be shell casings, 21 right? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. As a police officer, would you expect that 24 that's a good place to look for shell casings if BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 236 1 2 3 somebody fired a weapon from a car? A. It could be from any area within where the shots were fired, yes. 4 Q. Did you look? 5 A. Did I look? 6 Q. Yeah, did you look for shell casings? 7 A. I did not look for shell casings, no. 8 Q. Did your partner? 9 A. I don't believe so. 10 MR. O'CONNOR: 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 12 Videotape No. 3. 13 2:21 p.m. 14 Okay. We can switch tapes. This will now conclude We're going off the record at (A lunch break was had.) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 16 video record. 17 3:08 p.m. 18 deposition of Officer Juan Martinez. 19 20 The time is 3:07 -- that would be This is Videotape No. 4 of the Counsel? BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, when you looked in the vehicle, you 21 looked as you were covering your partner to handcuff 22 Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 23 A. As I looked into the vehicle? 24 Q. Yeah. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 237 1 2 A. At the moment that my partner was cuffing Mr. Castellanos, I was focusing on Mr. Castellanos. 3 Q. Okay. At what point in time did you look 4 around the vehicle, as you've previously described? 5 When did that occur? 6 7 A. being handcuffed. 8 9 Probably maybe -- possibly shortly after him Q. Okay. Again, I don't want to know what possibly happened. I just want to -- 10 A. I couldn't tell you a for sure answer, no. 11 Q. Would you have looked -- Strike that. 12 13 Did you look in the car before the ambulance came? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I took a quick glance inside the vehicle. 17 Q. Okay. Are you sure? And the quick glance you took, you 18 looked in towards the passenger's seat, you said, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. I did not. 23 Q. Okay. 24 You looked in the backseat? If you thought there may have been somebody else in the car, even potentially, or even BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 238 1 2 if you didn't, shouldn't you look in the backseat? A. There was other vehicles that were able to 3 do that. 4 on scene. 5 Q. Other units arrived -- other units arrived All right. Well, hang on a second now. 6 and your partner handcuffed Mr. Castellanos before 7 anybody else arrived on the scene, right? 8 A. I believe so. 9 Q. Okay. And if there was nobody else there on 10 the scene besides you and your partner, you're in 11 control of the scene, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. You So by being a police officer in a 14 situation where there's a shooting and you're 15 throwing out there the possibility of someone else 16 being in the car, you should look in the backseat to 17 see if there's anybody in there, right? 18 A. Possibly. 19 Q. You should possibly look or you should look? 20 A. Depending on the situation. 21 Q. This is the situation, what happened that 22 23 24 night. A. Should you look in the backseat or not? Shortly after Mr. Castellanos was handcuffed other units arrived on scene. Also the ambulance BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 239 1 arrived on the scene. 2 Q. Okay. I'm asking about you. Before any 3 other units arrived at the scene, should you look in 4 the backseat? 5 A. Should I? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Possibly, yes. 8 Q. What situation -- what else -- what else in 9 Depends on the situation. the situation would you have needed that would 10 warrant and require you to look in the backseat of 11 the vehicle? 12 A. 13 searching the backseat. 14 15 Q. A. 20 21 22 So the answer is that you did not That's correct. I did not look in the backseat, yes. 18 19 Okay. look in the backseat? 16 17 At the moment I wasn't thinking about Q. Did you look in the passenger's seat, if you know? A. Like I said earlier, I looked into the vehicle and I look at the passenger's seat, yes. Q. Okay. Were all the doors of the car still 23 closed; Castellanos is still inside the car with all 24 the doors closed? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 240 1 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 Q. What's not to your knowledge? 3 A. As far as I know, the passenger-side door 4 5 6 7 8 9 was ajar, was open. Q. You're saying the passenger's-side door was ajar at the scene before -A. Not at the scene. This is -- this is information I've become aware of after, afterwards. Q. How did you become aware after this 10 occurrence at sometime later that the passenger door 11 was ajar at any time? 12 A. Just looking at some reports and some 13 photographs. 14 Q. Okay. Were the photographs taken after the 15 police officers did an exhaustive search of the 16 vehicle for the gun that you said was there? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. So you don't know if they opened the door to 19 the car, right? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Okay. As far as you know, when you were at 22 the scene looking in the passenger's seat, was the 23 door open or closed on the passenger's side? 24 A. I did not notice the door. Again, I was BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 241 1 focusing on -- on our threat. 2 Q. So back to my question about five questions 3 ago. 4 open or closed because you didn't even look, right? 5 You don't know whether the passenger door was 6 7 A. I was not focusing on the door. No, I don't know. Q. Okay. You would agree with me that this is 8 not a new vehicle by any means that Mr. Castellanos 9 is sitting in? 10 A. It was not a new vehicle, no. 11 Q. Okay. So that front seat and that passenger 12 seat may have had all kinds of different people 13 sitting in them at one point or another, right? 14 A. I wouldn't know. 15 Q. Okay. 16 But it looked like it was a pretty used car? 17 A. Older car. 18 Q. Okay. So if -- that's the kind of car that 19 you would imagine, by looking at it, that had some 20 wear and tear on it, people in and out of it, right? 21 A. Possibly, yes. 22 Q. Okay. So if there was any kind of DNA in 23 this vehicle, it could be from anybody that was there 24 months or years ahead of time sitting in this car, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 242 1 right? 2 A. I wouldn't know. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever get any police courses or teach 6 Are you familiar with what DNA is? any police courses about the use of DNA? 7 A. I never taught any courses on DNA. 8 Q. Have you taken any courses on it? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 What do know? knowing anything about DNA? A. What's your basis for What do you know? DNA is -- from what I understand, is fluids 13 from a person that's used to possibly identify a 14 person at a scene. 15 Q. Can it be skin cells? 16 A. It could be skin cells, could be blood. 17 Q. Could it be sweat? 18 A. Could be sweat. 19 Q. Could be blood? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Could be the kind of thing that comes off a 22 person's body that may have been sitting in the 23 passenger seat of this vehicle months, weeks, or 24 years ahead of time? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 243 1 A. I don't know the answer to that question. 2 Q. All right. Certainly you can foresee the 3 fact that there may be DNA in this vehicle that does 4 not belong to Mr. Castellanos that has in no way any 5 bearing on who was in the vehicle the night that you 6 shot him, right? 7 A. I wouldn't know the answer to that question. 8 Q. Okay. As far as you understand it, there 9 were absolutely no weapons of any kind found in this 10 vehicle from all the reports that you read; is that 11 correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Mr. Castellanos didn't have so much as a 14 slingshot in the car; is that correct? 15 A. I don't have the answer to that question. 16 Q. Did you ever talk to Officer Lawryn about 17 what bullets he shot and where any of his bullets 18 landed in the two years since the occurrence that 19 you've been partners? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Any reason why you have not had any 22 conversation with him about that in the two years, 23 any specific reason for that? 24 A. I don't know where my bullets landed. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 I 244 1 2 don't know if he knows where his landed. Q. Okay. But in the course of the two years, 3 two guys that work together every day going through 4 something like this, it would seem to me that perhaps 5 you might have a conversation. 6 is, is there some specific reason why you've never 7 had a conversation with him in two years about what 8 happened? 9 A. 10 had landed. 11 was not your question now. What I'm asking about Your question was if I knew where my bullets That was your previous question. 12 Q. I know. 13 A. Okay. 14 please. 15 Q. That I've asked you a new one. Well, restate your new question, In the two years that you've worked with 16 Mr. Lawryn since the occurrence, have you had any 17 conversations with him about what happened the night 18 that Mr. Castellanos was shot by you guys? 19 20 MR. HURD: Objection, asked and answered. BY THE WITNESS: 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What have you talked about? 23 A. We talked about what transcribed [sic] that 24 night. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 245 1 2 Q. And what did you learn from Mr. Lawryn's from his perspective? 3 A. From his perspective? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. That he saw -- he heard the gunshots like I In other words, what did he tell you? 6 did, but he also saw the driver's-side window being 7 blown out. 8 but he told me he did. 9 Q. I did not see the driver's-side window, All right. When you first approached the 10 vehicle, you said that you were coming to the vehicle 11 from the driver's-side door of Mr. Castellanos 12 towards him; is that right? 13 A. From the driver's side, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And you were approaching him at that 15 time, and that's when you first saw this blue steel 16 gun pointed out the window in your face? 17 A. Not pointed out the window. 18 Q. You did not see it? 19 A. Pointed at me, yes. 20 Q. Okay. So are you telling me that 21 Mr. Castellanos pointed a blue steel gun at you 22 through a closed window? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. It was a partially opened window. How far was it opened? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 246 1 A. Approximately halfway, approximately. 2 Q. Okay. 3 outside the window? 4 5 A. The gun was not pointed outside of the -- it was in the interior of the vehicle. 6 7 And did Mr. Castellanos point the gun Q. Okay. Was it above or below the half window mark? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. You don't recall? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 I didn't have -- I didn't measure if it was above or below, no. 12 Q. All right. Well, let's try and make it 13 easier. 14 window, which is the bottom half, and you have no 15 glass above that place. 16 steel gun. You've got some glass there for half the And you say you saw a blue 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you got a good look at it, it was 19 pointed right at you. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you can't tell me if you were looking at 22 it through the glass or not through the glass; is 23 that right? 24 A. I'm not sure. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 247 1 2 Q. How long was this gun pointed at you while you got a good look at it? 3 A. 4 second. 5 Q. 6 Okay. I would say at least -- at least a good All right. What's the outside range on that, one second to what? 7 A. One second to possibly two seconds. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 11 And you said that Mr. Lawryn told you that he saw the driver's-side window blown out. What do you mean by that? A. At the time that the gunshots were heard, he 12 recalled seeing the glass to the driver's side of 13 that vehicle shattering outward. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. How did that come up? 16 Q. Yeah. 17 A. I don't -- I don't recall. 18 Q. And when he told you that, what did you -- 19 20 21 22 And how did that come up? How did that come up in conversation? what'd you learn? A. I learned that the glass to the driver's side was blown out. Q. Okay. Did Mr. Lawryn tell you anything 23 about how that happened or what else he saw in 24 connection with that? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 248 1 A. Not that I can recall. 2 Q. Okay. Did you fire any bullets through the 3 driver's-side window when you were shooting at 4 Mr. Castellanos? 5 A. Did I fire through his window? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. I never hit the window, no. 8 Q. All right. 9 No. You never hit his window? Even though you were shooting at him from the driver's side of the car and then behind 10 towards the rear but still on the driver's side of 11 the car, you never hit his driver's-side window when 12 you were aiming at his head? 13 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 14 Q. Okay. 15 without ever hitting the glass? 16 17 18 19 20 All your bullets went into the car A. To my -- not -- to my knowledge, I don't know. Q. Did Mr. Lawryn tell you anything other than he saw the driver's-side window blow out? A. He related -- well, he related he possibly 21 thought he was possibly shot because two holes were 22 found on his vest. 23 Q. So Mr. Lawryn told you that he was shot too? 24 A. It could have been possible. After the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 249 1 fact, we -- it was a possibility. 2 Q. When did he tell you this? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Well, did he tell you that he was possibly 5 shot, using your words, like moments after the 6 occurrence, or -- 7 A. No. 8 Q. -- did he tell you this years after the 9 occurrence or what? 10 A. This was afterwards, after we -- you know, 11 there was holes to the vest that were -- on his 12 ballistic vest that were found, there's a possibility 13 that he might have been struck by either bullet 14 fragments or some fragmentation from the vehicle. 15 Q. What vehicle? 16 A. From Mr. Castellanos, maybe some 17 fragmentation might have come back and struck Officer 18 Lawryn's vest. 19 Q. So in other words, you're telling me that 20 when you guys were shooting at this person, 21 Mr. Castellanos, if either of you had hit the car 22 rather than him, that there's a potential that metal 23 from the car would fly back and hit you guys in the 24 vest? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 250 1 A. It's a possibility. 2 Q. Okay. Did anybody test any fragments of any 3 kind on your vest or Mr. Lawryn's vest to see if 4 there were any fragments? 5 A. I'm not sure. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I did not. 8 Q. Did Mr. Lawryn have to turn in his vest? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Why? 11 A. I guess for as evidence or maybe testing, 12 I'm not sure. 13 Q. Did he ever get it back? 14 A. I'm not sure. 15 Q. You work with him every day. 16 Did you have to turn in your vest? Did he get a new vest? 17 A. I don't know if he bought a new vest. 18 Q. When he wears his vest yesterday or the day 19 before, when you last worked with him, was he wearing 20 an old vest or a new one? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. I know he was getting a loner vest, but I 24 don't know if he's purchased a new vest or he's got BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 251 1 2 3 his old vest back. Q. All right. Did Mr. Lawryn tell you what the results of the test were on his vest? 4 A. I don't know the answer to that, no. 5 Q. Did you ever ask that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You've not been made aware through reading 8 any reports or talking to anybody else that there 9 were any fragments of any kind found on Mr. Lawryn's 10 vest; is that correct? 11 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 Q. I know you anticipate the questions. It's 13 my fault for putting a "correct" at the end of it, so 14 I'm going to ask it again just so I have a clear 15 answer. 16 Has anybody told you or have you read 17 anything that indicated that there were any fragments 18 of any kind found on Mr. Lawryn's vest? 19 A. Not to my knowledge. 20 Q. So to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Lawryn 21 was not shot? 22 A. As far as I -- I don't know. 23 Q. You don't see anything of any kind that 24 tells you that Mr. Lawryn was shot; is that right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 252 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. I didn't inspect the vest. I couldn't give you an answer. Q. All right. Do you know of anything specifically that indicates that Mr. Lawryn was shot? A. The two -- two holes in his vest, there's a possibility he might have been shot. 7 Q. Did you see these holes? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where were they? 10 A. On the front part of his vest. 11 Q. What does the "front part" mean? 12 A. The front portion of his vest. Not the back 13 plate, but the front plate. 14 where, but I did see two -- two holes on the vest. 15 Q. I don't know exactly Do you have any knowledge as to whether 16 those holes were there before the time of the 17 shooting? 18 A. I -- I don't know. 19 Q. Okay. 20 So you don't know when those holes had taken place at all? 21 A. I couldn't give you a time, no. 22 Q. And you have no idea if those holes in the 23 vest that you're indicating occurred during this 24 event with Mr. Castellanos; is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 253 1 A. I don't know, that's correct. 2 Q. Did you ever read anything that showed where 3 the bullets that landed inside of Mr. Castellanos 4 came from? 5 A. Can you be more specific? 6 Q. Sure. 7 report? 8 A. Have I seen an autopsy report? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. I may have seen it, but I don't really 11 12 13 Did you see any kind of an autopsy recall what was on it. Q. Have you seen any ballistics reports from this occurrence? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you seen anything that indicated which 16 of you gentlemen were the guys or guy who effectively 17 shot and killed Mr. Castellanos? 18 A. No. 19 Q. But you do know that the only people out 20 there that had any gun casings or pieces of bullets 21 that were found attributed to them was you and your 22 partner, Mr. Lawryn; is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. So as far as you know, the only BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 254 1 bullets that landed inside of Mr. Castellanos would 2 have come from either your gun or Mr. Lawryn's gun or 3 both? 4 MR. HURD: 5 6 Objection, asked and answered. Go ahead. BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. Just interrogatory No. 17 from 9 your answers to interrogatories that were previously 10 marked as Exhibit No. 2 today, you do indicate that 11 no such gun was in fact recovered in relationship to 12 this occurrence; is that true, sir? 13 A. As far as I know, no gun was recovered. 14 Q. Interrogatory No. 18 asks: Did either of 15 the defendant police officers tell anyone that 16 plaintiff's decedent, which would be Mr. Castellanos, 17 shot a gun at them at either officer -- or that 18 either officer was struck by a bullet; if so, who 19 said this information and who was it said to? 20 It indicates in your answer that Officer 21 Martinez states that -- believes he told Officer 22 Lawryn shortly after plaintiff's decedent pointed a 23 weapon and two loud reports occurred that he had been 24 hit. To the best of his recollection, he also BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 255 1 believes that he told the ambulance personnel and 2 medical personnel as well as Deputy Chief Valez that 3 he believed that he had been shot. 4 We've talked a little bit about your telling 5 these folks that. Would you agree with me that if 6 Mr. Castellanos did not have a gun, that it would be 7 impossible for him to have shot you with a bullet? 8 A. If he did not have a gun? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. Then it would be hard for him to shoot me, Q. Do you know of any way that Mr. Castellanos 11 yes. 12 13 could have shot you with a bullet without having a 14 gun? 15 A. I don't know of any way. 16 Q. So knowing all the police stuff that you 17 know after being an officer now for 16 years, your 18 understanding is, if Castellanos didn't have a gun 19 that night, he couldn't have shot you, right? 20 21 22 A. Because a gun wasn't found doesn't mean there was not a gun. Q. That was not what my question was, sir. I 23 asked you a very specific question. If 24 Mr. Castellanos did not have a gun, then he could not BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 256 1 have shot you or even shot at you, true? 2 A. If he did not have a gun, yes. 3 Q. Okay. So when you told the detectives that 4 you had been shot, that was in fact not a true 5 statement; is that correct? 6 A. When I told the detectives? I may have told 7 them I thought I was shot. 8 detectives was after being treated at the hospital, 9 so that would not be ... 10 11 Q. When I spoke to the Did you ever tell the detectives that you were not shot? 12 A. I told them I believed I was shot. 13 Q. No, I understand that. 14 that by say, hey, guys, guess what, I wasn't shot? 15 16 Did you ever correct A. I'm not sure if I -- at the statement, if I told them that. 17 Q. Okay. Would it be important to give full 18 and complete and accurate information to detectives 19 when they investigate a shooting? 20 A. I believe they would be fully aware if I was 21 shot. 22 leaving the hospital. 23 if I was shot. 24 The investigating detective was with me Q. Okay. He would be definitely aware And he wouldn't have to hear that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 257 1 from you because he could see it at the hospital, 2 right? 3 4 5 A. Right, and also the report from the hospital. Q. Okay. So you knew that the detective could 6 get that information from the doctor showing that 7 there's no bullets in you anywhere, right? 8 A. That's a possibility, yes. 9 Q. But rather than do that, you told the 10 11 12 13 14 15 detective that you were shot? A. I probably -- I believe I might have said I believed I was shot at the moment. Q. Okay. And did you believe that you were shot when you got to the hospital? A. At the hospital, after being looked at by 16 the paramedics and them searching for extra holes in 17 my body, I felt that I wasn't shot. 18 Q. You felt that you were not shot? 19 A. At the moment I -- it was a possibility I 20 was not shot. 21 Q. Okay. Were you sure when you left the 22 hospital that you didn't have a bullet in you when 23 you were leaving? 24 A. When I left the hospital? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 258 1 Q. Yeah. 2 A. I -- I did not believe I had a bullet in my 3 4 body, no. Q. Okay. Did you ever tell anybody in the 5 course of this investigation that you were wrong and 6 you, in fact, were not shot? 7 A. Did I ever tell anybody? 8 Q. Yes, sir, to correct the record so that it 9 would get into a police report as accurate and full 10 disclosure. 11 A. No. I believe the -- that was simply a fact 12 that they could get from the doctors or the other 13 medical personnel. 14 Q. So you didn't think that it was important to 15 have it be specifically factual when you gave them 16 the information telling them that you were shot. 17 when you discovered that you were not shot 18 specifically, you didn't feel it important enough to 19 tell them that you were not shot to correct the 20 record; is that correct? 21 22 MR. HURD: And Objection, vague and compound. BY THE WITNESS: 23 A. No. 24 afterwards. I don't believe I was even asked They probably got the information from BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 259 1 2 the treating physician. Q. Did you ever see anything in any of the 3 reports that said you were not shot, or did you just 4 simply see in the reports that you reported that you 5 were shot? 6 7 A. I believe the reports read that -- reported that I believed that I was shot. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. After the fact, yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 When, in fact, you were not, true? You told your partner you were shot; is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Again, that was not true; is that true -- 14 Strike that. 15 16 Let me ask another question. You told your partner that you were shot. That, in fact, was not a true statement? 17 A. At the moment I believed I was shot. 18 Q. In fact, you were not; and therefore, you 19 gave him inaccurate statement. 20 the truth, right? You didn't tell him 21 A. At the moment I believed I was shot. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 The information that you gave to your partner about being shot was not true? A. At the moment that I stated the information, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 260 1 I believed I was shot. 2 3 Q. Did you ever tell your partner you weren't shot? 4 A. No, I don't think I did. 5 Q. Did your partner ever tell you that he 6 wasn't shot? 7 A. No, I don't think so. 8 Q. So both of you guys tell each other that you 9 10 11 think you were shot, and neither one of you tell each other that you weren't; is that right? A. I told my partner -- I related I've been 12 shot, I've been hit, I've been hit, and that was the 13 extent of what I told him. 14 15 Q. Whose bullet hit Mr. Castellanos in the forehead? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Whose bullet hit Mr. Castellanos in the 18 chest? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Was that bullet fired from in front of the 21 car that hit him in the chest? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. How could Mr. Castellanos have been hit in 24 the chest if both you and your partner were standing BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 261 1 behind or to the side of the vehicle, if you can tell 2 me? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Whose bullet hit Mr. Castellanos by shooting 5 him in the back? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Did you ever make any determination that one 8 bullet had hit Mr. Castellanos and that was enough to 9 incapacitate him? 10 A. I did not come to that determination, no. 11 Q. Did your partner tell you that he ever made 12 that determination? 13 A. No. 14 Q. If you actually draw your weapon and shoot 15 at somebody whether they have a gun or not and you 16 hit them with a bullet, don't you have to make 17 another determination as to whether one is enough, 18 that you don't have to actually go forward and kill 19 this person if in fact one was bullet was enough to 20 incapacitate them? 21 A. I used the necessary force to eliminate a 22 threat. So if I still feel my life or my partner's 23 life threatened, I proceed in using force. 24 Q. Okay. My question is, if you made a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 262 1 determination that someone was incapacitated, could 2 that eliminate the threat? 3 4 5 A. If I come to the conclusion the person is incapacitated, yes, that's eliminating a threat, yes. Q. Did you even attempt to discover whether 6 Mr. Castellanos was incapacitated before firing your 7 second, third, or fourth bullet? 8 9 10 A. I shot two -- my first shot was followed by an immediate second shot. Q. I know. I heard you tell me that. But I'm 11 asking between the second -- first and the second 12 shot, did you ever make any determination as to 13 whether the first shot incapacitated him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Why not? 16 A. I didn't have time. 17 Q. What was the rush? 18 A. The rush -- the rush was my life and the 19 20 life of my partner, that was the rush. Q. The only guys out there that actually had 21 any bullets leave their gun that you found casings of 22 or that were found, to your knowledge, are you and 23 your partner, right? 24 A. As far as I know, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 263 1 Q. So the truth of the matter is, if he doesn't 2 have a gun in the car and there are no bullet casings 3 anywhere and therefore Castellanos is not firing any 4 bullets at anybody, you didn't really have to be in a 5 rush -- 6 7 8 MR. HURD: Objection -- BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. -- is that true? 9 MR. HURD: 10 misstates evidence. 11 was a revolver. 12 casings. 13 14 -- compound, misstates fact, and A revolver does not have shell BY THE WITNESS: A. 15 Can you restate your question, please? MR. O'CONNOR: 16 17 18 There was testimony there Can you please read it back? (Record read as requested.) BY THE WITNESS: A. That's kind of a "what if" situation. I 19 don't know the answer to that. 20 just because there's not a gun found doesn't mean he 21 didn't have a gun. 22 23 24 Q. He doesn't have -- Did you see anybody take a gun from the scene? A. I did not. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 264 1 2 Q. guys took the gun from the scene, did you? 3 4 5 You and your partner, neither one of you MR. HURD: Objection, asked and answered about a thousand times. BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did either you or your partner read 8 Mr. Castellanos's rights? 9 A. Read him rights? 10 Q. Mm-hmm. 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you handcuffed Mr. Castellanos, you 13 told me that he was breathing and he was alive, 14 right? 15 A. He was gasping and alive, yeah. 16 Q. Okay. 17 18 19 20 21 22 And anytime you handcuff a person for any reason, are you placing them under arrest? A. At this point he was being placed, I guess, in custody, possibly arrest. Q. Okay. So Mr. Castellanos should have been read his rights, right? A. I guess it depends on the situation of when 23 to read him rights. 24 the very moment. It doesn't have to be done at Rights are usually going from when BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 265 1 we're questioning him, asking him questions. In that 2 regard, I wasn't asking him any questioning at this 3 moment. 4 Q. Well, isn't the rights that are read to a 5 person that is handcuffed read to them immediately so 6 that they don't say something that could be used 7 against them? 8 A. It doesn't have to be very immediate. 9 Q. Okay. What's the police protocol on that? 10 When you put the handcuffs on somebody, how long do 11 you have before you have to read them their rights? 12 13 MR. HURD: Foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. I'm not sure of that answer. 15 Q. After 16 years you're not sure of that 16 answer? 17 A. I don't believe there's a set time limit. 18 don't believe they say you've got -- you have ten 19 seconds to read this person their rights. 20 believe there's a set time. 21 Q. I don't Is there anything that says when you 22 handcuff somebody for any reason you have to read 23 them their rights? 24 that you're aware? Is there any documentation on BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 I 266 1 A. I think it comes in -- comes into effect if 2 you're going to be asking questions that might 3 incriminate them. 4 Q. Okay. If you could please answer my 5 question. I asked you a specific question. Is there 6 any document that you're aware of that says -- 7 A. Not that I'm -- that I'm aware of. 8 Q. I'll have to ask you a clear question now so 9 we can get a question and an answer. 10 Are you aware of any documentation that says 11 to the effect of when you put handcuffs on somebody 12 that you have to read them their rights when they're 13 handcuffed? 14 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 15 Q. Did Mr. Castellanos say anything at all when 16 he was sitting in the car? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How long did he live, as far as you know? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Were you there when he took his last breath? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. When you last saw him, was he still 23 24 breathing? A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 267 1 2 Q. Okay. And when did you last see him in relationship to the ambulance personnel arriving? 3 A. I couldn't tell you exact number of minutes. 4 I don't know. 5 Q. Okay. Did you look for any item in the car 6 that you were looking to see if it looked like blue 7 steel? 8 A. Not at the moment. 9 Q. Did you look in the car at any point in time 10 to see if you saw anything that looked like blue 11 steel? 12 A. Like I mentioned earlier, I just managed to 13 take a quick glimpse of the area that I could manage 14 to see from where I was standing, yes. 15 16 Q. And did you see anything that looked like blue steel in the car? 17 A. Not -- I did not. 18 Q. Did you see a police report that indicated 19 that Mr. Castellanos had a cell phone in his front 20 pocket when they were going through his personal 21 items? 22 A. No. 23 Q. All right. 24 Did Mr. Castellanos have any cell phones in the vehicle at the time? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 268 1 A. Not that I know of. 2 Q. And if there were, you didn't -- you didn't 3 look or -- look for or see them; is that right? 4 A. I didn't see it. 5 Q. You mentioned that Officer Lawryn was to the 6 south of you when you were approaching the vehicle; 7 is that true? 8 A. 9 10 To the south of me when I was approaching the vehicle, yes. Q. So that would mean if Mr. Lawryn moved to 11 his south, he would have gotten further away from 12 you; is that right? 13 A. If he would have moved to his south? 14 Q. Yeah. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And if he moves in a southward direction, He's already south of you. 17 he's going to be further away from you rather than 18 closer, right? 19 A. Correct, yeah. 20 Q. Did you have anything to do with creating 21 the actual crash reports in this case? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How long were you at the scene before you 24 were put in an ambulance? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 269 1 A. I'm not sure. 2 Q. Who put you in the ambulance? 3 A. I believe the paramedics. 4 Q. Did any of your commanding officers in 5 17 show up? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did any of them tell you what to do or ask 8 9 10 you what happened? A. I had to give a brief synopsis to my watch commander. 11 Q. And who was that? 12 A. Lieutenant Serb, S-e-r-b. 13 Q. And Lieutenant Serb, did you give him that 14 synopsis at the scene? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you walk him through the events? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You just gave him a verbal? 19 A. Gave him a verbal synopsis. 20 Q. Were you on the street, or were you in a car 21 when you did that? 22 A. I believe I was in an ambulance. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Did you at any time tell any detective or Lieutenant Serb that you saw, in fact, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 270 1 an object rather than a gun on the occasion before 2 you actually fired your weapon for the first time? 3 A. No. I related I saw a gun. 4 Q. So you never corrected your statement to 5 these individuals that before you actually fired the 6 weapon you saw an arm extended with an object rather 7 than a gun before you fired; is that true? 8 MR. HURD: 9 testimony. 10 BY THE WITNESS: Objection, vague, misstates his 11 A. I related that I saw a gun. 12 Q. I understand. But before you actually -- we 13 talked about this a little while. 14 actually fired your weapon, after you dove and 15 scratched your head and you get up and now you see 16 Castellanos, you said you saw an arm and you said you 17 saw an object. 18 anybody in the investigation of this that at that 19 point before you actually fired you simply saw an arm 20 with an object that you could not specifically 21 identify as being a gun? 22 23 Before you My question is, did you ever tell MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. ahead. 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 Go 271 1 BY THE WITNESS: 2 3 A. At the moment it was a weapon, and I perceived that weapon to be -- to be that firearm. 4 Q. So if you could please answer my question 5 now. Did you ever tell any of these people in the 6 investigation that you saw an object rather than 7 something that you could specifically identify as a 8 gun? 9 A. I'm not sure. 10 Q. This report that says aggravated assault on 11 a police officer with a handgun, if no such handgun 12 was found and no such handgun existed, then that 13 report would be untrue; would you agree? 14 15 A. At this point we don't know if no handgun existed. 16 Q. We do agree that no handgun was found? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And we do agree that nobody entered the 19 scene or left the scene that you know of that you can 20 point to at any time from the time that you pulled up 21 until the time that Mr. Castellanos took his last 22 breath, correct? 23 A. As far as I know, yes. 24 Q. Okay. So if there was a gun there, short of BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 272 1 it evaporating, it should be there, right? 2 A. It may or may not. 3 Q. What explanation do you have of how this gun 4 can go away shy of somebody taking it away? 5 A. You brought up a good example. You said 6 possibly Mr. Castellanos could have tossed it. 7 could be -- that could be one possibility. 8 know. 9 10 Q. It We don't Did you see Mr. Castellanos throw anything out -- 11 A. I did -- 12 Q. -- out of the car? 13 A. I did not see him. 14 Q. And if you did, you'd go look for it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you know the police looked around the 17 whole scene and around the whole car with an 18 exhaustive search until well into the next afternoon 19 of the next day? 20 21 22 A. I didn't watch the police do the search. I couldn't answer that question. Q. Well, if the news reports have reporters out 23 there, like, noon the next day with the tape still up 24 in the place where this occurred, that would still be BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 273 1 an active crime scene if you've still got the yellow 2 tape up, right? 3 A. Usually when the tape goes up, it's still a 4 scene, yes. 5 Q. Okay. And you understand that -- through 6 your police training, that if there's any indication 7 that there's a gun around, people are going to look 8 for it until they find it or they have an absolutely 9 exhaustive search to say it doesn't exist? 10 A. Most likely. 11 Q. All right. 12 13 14 And the determination that was made is that the gun doesn't exist at the scene? A. It wasn't -- a gun was not found at the scene. 15 Q. Which basically means there's no gun there? 16 A. I said a gun was not found at the scene. 17 Q. This is concrete around this area, right? 18 A. Concrete, there's grass, there's other -- 19 there's trees, there's bushes. 20 Q. Okay. All that would have been searched? 21 A. You would suppose, yes. 22 Q. I'm just going through some notes here. A 23 lot of this we've covered, so I'm just trying to save 24 a little bit of time. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 274 1 MR. HURD: I appreciate it, so by all means 2 take your time if it will make this thing go 3 quicker. 4 5 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. If Mr. Castellanos did not have a gun, did 6 he deserve the opportunity to go home to his family 7 that night? 8 A. 9 Did he deserve to go to his family if he did not have a gun? 10 Q. That's right. 11 A. If he did not have a gun? 12 Q. If Mr. Castellanos could be incapacitated if Absolutely, yes. 13 you weren't sure if he had a gun or not, does he 14 deserve to be incapacitated as opposed to shot until 15 he dies? 16 A. You want my opinion on that? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Does he deserve to be shot? 19 Q. No. 20 I said does he deserve to be simply incapacitated rather than being shot to death? 21 A. If he does not have a gun. 22 Q. Let me rephrase the question, sir. 23 24 If you're not sure if he has a gun or not -A. Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 275 1 Q. -- isn't there something short of killing 2 him that you can do and still give the guy a chance 3 to survive and live on? 4 5 A. gun. At the moment I feared for my life. I saw a I believed him to have a gun. 6 Q. Do you carry a taser weapon? 7 A. I did not have a taser, I believe, at that 8 time. 9 Q. Do you carry one today? 10 A. I don't. 11 Q. Have you ever carried one? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When? 14 A. On previous occasions. 15 16 I don't know when, but I've carried one. Q. What would require you to carry a taser gun 17 versus not carry one? 18 it with you? 19 A. What circumstance do you bring I guess it's -- depends if your 20 certification is up to date, depends on if you -- you 21 know, there's no set rule of having to carry a taser. 22 Q. Were your certifications up to date for 23 carrying a taser gun as of the time of this 24 occurrence? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 276 1 A. I'm not sure. 2 Q. Did you own a taser gun? 3 A. No, I don't own one. 4 Q. What occasion would you have carried one, 5 then? 6 A. What occasion? 7 Q. Yeah. 8 A. In the past maybe just taken one out of 9 the -- checking one out. 10 Q. "Checking one out" meaning what? 11 A. Same way where you get your radios issued to 12 13 14 you, you get maybe a taser issued to you. Q. So if you ask for a taser gun at the station, they're going to give you one? 15 A. If you ask for one, yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 And do you have to be certified in order to have that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And were you certified as of the time of 20 this occurrence to carry a taser gun or not? 21 A. I am not sure. 22 Q. Have you ever been certified? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And how often do you re-up that? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 277 1 A. Certification I believe is yearly. 2 Q. So are you required to keep that 3 certification active? 4 A. You're not required. 5 Q. Okay. 6 So is your certification active today? 7 A. Today, no. 8 Q. When did it expire? 9 A. I am not sure. 10 Q. Do you carry a card? 11 A. Do I carry a card? 12 Q. How do you prove that you're certified or 13 qualified? 14 15 A. You could check the computer. It tells you what certifications are up to date. 16 17 No. Q. Okay. Did your partner have a taser gun at the time of this occurrence? 18 A. I don't believe so. 19 Q. When did the car that Mr. Castellanos was in 20 stop smoking? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. When did the engine get turned off, if at A. I don't know. 23 24 all? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 278 1 Q. Did you turn the engine off? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Were the wheels still spinning when you 4 handcuffed him? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. When you see somebody who is traveling at a 7 high rate of speed that has a collision with a 8 vehicle that normally would not have occurred, does 9 that indicate to you that there's something 10 potentially wrong with that person, such as they're 11 sick or they're ill or even intoxicated? 12 13 14 A. I would not know what the situation is in that vehicle until I do further investigation. Q. Was there anything about that area that 15 would have made you think that somebody's going to 16 crash into a car there except for the vehicle being 17 out of control? 18 A. "Anything" being ... 19 Q. Traffic situation, anything. I mean, 20 what's -- what other reason would this car have 21 struck into a parked car other than potentially being 22 out of control? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did your partner ever go around to the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 279 1 passenger's side after or before he handcuffed 2 Mr. Castellanos? 3 A. I don't believe so. 4 Q. Did you guys both stand on the driver's side 5 6 7 8 9 of the car until the ambulance came? A. We were on that side of the vehicle, yes, passenger -- I mean the driver's side, yes. Q. So at any point in time did you come up on the passenger's side of the vehicle? 10 A. I don't think so, no. 11 Q. Do you know how the front tire got flat in 12 the car? 13 A. I do not. 14 Q. If you wanted to simply stop this vehicle 15 from getting anywhere, could you have simply driven 16 your car right up to the door of the vehicle and 17 therefore stopped it from being able to move? 18 A. Putting my car up against his car? 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't do that, for my 21 safety. 22 Q. 23 24 Could you have pulled up close to the car if you felt for some reason he was going to take off? A. No. Actually, I would probably create more BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 280 1 distance. 2 3 Q. Did you hear the 911 call that a gentleman -- Strike that. 4 Did you hear an audiotape of a gentleman who 5 called in and said that there was a man passed out 6 over his steering wheel? 7 A. Did I hear the tape? 8 Q. Did you have to give any kind of statement 9 No, I did not. to anybody prior to today about this occurrence? 10 A. 11 to anybody? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No, I did not have to give a statement to 14 anybody. 15 16 Did I have -- did I have to give a statement Q. Have you given any recorded statements to anybody since this day of occurrence? 17 A. I made some statements, yes. 18 Q. And please tell me who you gave statements A. I made a statement to Agent Jackson, the 22 Q. When did you do that? 23 A. I'm not sure of the exact date. 19 to. 20 21 24 FBI. I don't know the exact -- exact date of that. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 281 1 Q. Where did you make that statement? 2 A. It was at my home. 3 Q. Give me your best estimate as to when 4 approximately that occurred. 5 6 A. I know it was sometime in the summertime. I don't know exactly when. 7 Q. Summer of 2014 or '13? 8 A. Possibly '13, I believe. Q. Is that the only statement that you made to 9 10 11 I think it was '13. the FBI? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was it a recorded statement or a statement 14 where he was taking notes? 15 A. Just taking notes like you are now. 16 Q. So to your knowledge, that statement was not 17 recorded? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Any other statements that you gave about 20 this occurrence? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you have any understanding as to where 23 24 Agent Jackson was assigned from the FBI? A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 282 1 2 Q. Do you know if your partner gave any statements to anybody from the FBI or anybody else? 3 A. I -- not to my knowledge. 4 Q. What did the FBI ask you? 5 A. Pretty much asked me what happened that 6 night. 7 8 Q. Did you tell them anything differently than what you told me here today? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Your vehicle that you were driving on the 11 night of the occurrence, is it customarily equipped 12 with a video camera? 13 A. 14 camera. 15 Q. 16 Our vehicle was not equipped with a video Do you drive other tac cars depending on the night, different cars? 17 A. No, that's our regularly assigned vehicle. 18 Q. Have you seen other tac cars in 17 that have 19 video? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Any understanding as to why the tac cars 22 don't have video but the other cars do? 23 24 A. I don't have any knowledge of that. Don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 283 1 Q. Any understanding as to what was wrong with 2 the video camera on the car that came up to the scene 3 after you? 4 A. I have no knowledge of that. 5 Q. There's a witness that gave a statement of 6 some sort to an investigator or a detective in this 7 matter, and there's some police report indicating a 8 gentleman named William Bruckman (phonetic) saying 9 that he may have heard something about somebody 10 yelling "get down." 11 saying "get down" to anybody at the scene or hearing 12 anybody else say "get down"? 13 14 A. Do you have any recollection of I don't recall me saying -- saying "get down," but my -- 15 Q. Did you hear anybody else say get down? 16 A. Well, my partner related to me after the 17 18 fact that I was yelling to him to get down. Q. So from anybody else hearing you yell, 19 whether it's Castellanos or anybody else, all they're 20 hearing is "get down," right? 21 22 23 24 A. Well, that's the statement, that witness said that's what they heard. Q. I understand that. So your partner told you that he heard you say "get down"? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 284 1 A. He heard me relate to get down to him. 2 Q. Okay. So if you yelled "get down" and 3 Castellanos is in the same area as your partner as 4 you're yelling, both engaged in the same 5 circumstance, is it possible to you that Castellanos 6 may have heard you say "get down"? 7 8 9 10 11 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. As far as I know, I yelled "get down" after the gun was pointed at me and my partner. Q. Well, the fact is you don't know if you said 12 "get down" or not. 13 heard you say "get down," but you don't know if you 14 even said that. 15 A. 16 "get down." 17 Q. Your partner told you that he I don't recall. Okay. I don't remember saying So you don't know whether you ever 18 said it. Whether you said it before any first shot 19 was fired or afterwards, you don't know because you 20 don't remember anything about that, right? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. Certainly "get down" is a different command 23 24 than "show your hands," would you agree? A. It's a different command, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 285 1 Q. If Mr. Castellanos was overhearing somebody 2 say "get down," by not showing hands he would 3 certainly not be refusing a command if the command 4 was "get down." Would you agree? 5 A. I don't know what actions he would take. 6 Q. All right. But my point is, if you command 7 somebody to do something and they don't do something 8 different than that, they're still not in violation 9 of your command? 10 11 A. I don't know his state of mind. I don't know what he would do. 12 Q. All right. Well, if you were to say "show 13 me your hands" and somebody doesn't, in your mind are 14 they resisting your attempt to arrest them or 15 resisting your instruction? 16 that? 17 18 19 A. Or what would you call They would be resisting my verbal commands, yeah. Q. Okay. So if you told somebody "get down," 20 if they didn't show you hands, you never told them to 21 so they're not resisting anything, right? 22 23 24 A. If they perceive me yelling "get down," then that's what they hear, "get down." Q. Okay. So if you were to yell "get down" BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 286 1 hypothetically and Mr. Castellanos heard that and he 2 just stayed in his car and looked forward and didn't 3 put his hands out the window or up or anything else, 4 he would not be resisting your commands, true? 5 6 7 A. That's a hypothetical, but that would be true, yes. Q. Okay. How close was the closest shot fired 8 at Mr. Castellanos? 9 were you or your partner away from him at the closest 10 In other words, how far away point when a bullet was discharged? 11 A. I don't have a measurement. I don't know. 12 Q. Your closest shot was one of your first two 13 shots, right? 14 A. 15 shots, yes. 16 Q. My closest shot were -- one of my two first And the bullet casing that was in the area 17 where you first dove to the ground, do you have an 18 understanding that that bullet casing came from your 19 partner's gun or yours? 20 A. From my knowledge now, that was not my 21 casing. 22 Q. Who's casing was it? 23 A. If it was not mine, it was my partner's. 24 Q. Okay. So would it be a fair assessment that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 287 1 your partner fired a gun at least around that 2 location where the bullet casing was identified on 3 the ground near where you drove; that would mean one 4 of his bullet casings may in fact be the closest? 5 A. That may be in fact the closest, yes. 6 Q. Do you know when that bullet was fired? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Do you know where your partner was when he 9 fired the last bullet that you recall him firing? 10 A. I don't know for a certainty. 11 Q. Was he still to the south of you or 12 somewhere else? 13 A. He was to the east of me. 14 Q. So he was out more towards the driver's side 15 of the car again? 16 A. He was more towards the east, yes. 17 Q. So he's closer to Mr. Castellanos out in the 18 19 street north of the car, right? A. We were both pretty much on the curb at this 20 time, possibly the grassy area or closer to the 21 sidewalk, and he was south -- I'm sorry -- he was 22 east of me. 23 Q. And north or south of Castellanos's car? 24 A. South. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 288 1 Q. Was he firing a weapon at that time? 2 A. At what time? 3 Q. When you just described him, east of you and 4 5 6 7 south of the car? A. When he was firing his weapon, he was to the east of me and south of the vehicle, yes. Q. Okay. There's no question in your mind that 8 this item that you talked about being blue steel was 9 in fact the color of blue steel, right? 10 A. The item that I saw was blue steel -- the 11 item I saw was a dark object. 12 was blue steel. 13 14 15 Q. The handgun that I saw Are those two different things, the dark object and the blue steel handgun? A. Blue steel is a description of the type of 16 color for the handgun. The object that I saw a 17 little further away, to me was a dark object. 18 Q. And not blue steel? 19 A. I couldn't give you with certainty that it 20 21 was blue steel or not. Q. It was a dark object. Well, you certainly -- if you thought it was 22 actually the same blue steel gun, you would simply 23 have told me it was the blue steel gun, right? 24 A. If I would have seen it and I knew for a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 289 1 fact that I saw it, I would have told you, yes, it's 2 a blue steel gun. But when -- 3 Q. And you're not -- 4 A. -- I saw it the second time, it was further 5 6 away and it was a dark object at that time. Q. And you're not telling me that it was the 7 blue steel gun because you can't tell me that because 8 you don't know that it was? 9 10 11 A. The second time, I can't tell you for a fact it was the blue steel gun, no. Q. If Pat Camden from the FOP were to tell the 12 news media that you gentlemen were hit by any bullet 13 fired at you, that is not a true statement; is that 14 correct? 15 A. If he were to tell the news media that we 16 were hit? 17 from, no. 18 Q. I don't know where he got his information My question is, if Camden did tell the news 19 media that you or your partner were hit by a bullet, 20 he lied, it's not true, right? 21 MR. HURD: 22 23 24 Objection to the charac- -- mischaracterization of the testimony. BY THE WITNESS: A. At the moment I told my partner I believe I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 290 1 was shot. 2 information. 3 know if his statements were before or after. 4 after we were looked at by doctors, then I guess with 5 certainty I would say I wasn't shot. 6 Q. I don't know Mr. Camden got his After we left the hospital -- I don't But So did anybody tell Mr. Camden, who was 7 putting all this stuff out in the media, that you 8 were not shot? 9 A. I don't know who talked to Mr. Camden. 10 Q. In any event, the statement that Mr. Camden 11 made to the media about either of you gentlemen being 12 struck by a bullet was not a true statement; is that 13 true? 14 MR. HURD: Objection, assumes facts not in 15 evidence and assumes facts that he doesn't know 16 about. 17 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 18 Q. I want you to rephrase it -- I want you to 19 assume Mr. Camden told the media that either you or 20 your partner were struck by a bullet. 21 have said that, that would be an incorrect statement; 22 is that right? 23 A. 24 wasn't shot. If he were to After being examined by the doctors, I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 291 1 Q. 2 been correct? 3 A. 4 So Mr. Camden's statement would not have At the moment it might have been correct, but after the exam it's not. 5 Q. Well, it was never -- something can't be 6 correct and later not correct. 7 true? 8 9 A. As far as the doctor's concerned, they checked me out. 10 in my body. 11 Q. 12 You were never shot, Okay. I didn't have any extra bullet holes So to get a clear, easy, plain-to-understand answer, were you ever shot, sir? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Okay. So Mr. Camden gave -- if he gave the 15 media information that you were shot, that was not 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Have you ever heard of a police officer 19 drawing their weapon and accidentally firing bullets 20 when they immediately draw the weapon from the 21 holster before they actually get it up to the point 22 where they intended to aim it? 23 A. Have I heard of that? 24 Q. Yeah. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 292 1 A. I've heard of incidents, yeah. 2 Q. Kind of an excited thing where somebody 3 pulls a weapon out and they pull the trigger on -- by 4 mistake as they're drawing the weapon up; is that 5 right? 6 A. I've heard, yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Any idea if that's possibly what happened here? 9 A. Speculating? 10 Q. Okay. I don't know. So is it possible that when you drew 11 your weapon from your holster that you might have 12 fired something off when you first pulled the weapon 13 out? 14 A. Me, no. 15 Q. Is it possible that your partner who fired 16 15 bullets could have fired once or twice when he 17 first drew his weapon before he even got to aim it? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Did you ever ask your partner about that, if 20 that was a possibility? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. What did he say? 23 A. No. 24 Q. He said that did not happen? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 293 1 A. Did not happen. 2 Q. But the only guy we know besides you that 3 actually had the gun -- or had a gun at the scene for 4 certain that fired any bullets that we know for 5 certain is, in fact, your partner, Mr. Lawryn? 6 A. That we know for certain, yes. 7 Q. Okay. If your partner would have fired any 8 bullets as he drew his weapon from his holster, you 9 would have heard them as gunshots, not necessarily 10 knowing who fired them, right? 11 A. Possibly. 12 Q. So basically you hear two gunshots. 13 don't know where they came from. 14 have come from your partner? You They could easily 15 A. Possibly. 16 Q. And if that was the case, then you would 17 have been shooting at Mr. Castellanos after hearing 18 gunshots that may never have come from 19 Mr. Castellanos, right? 20 A. I saw a handgun. 21 Q. I didn't ask you that. If your partner had 22 fired off any bullets and Mr. Castellanos had not, 23 you would have heard some gunshots and you could have 24 actually been shooting at Mr. Castellanos who never BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 294 1 shot at you, right? 2 A. I perceived a threat. 3 Q. I'm sorry. 4 my question? 5 don't have -- if you have a problem understanding, 6 I'll be happy to rephrase it -- Is there something unclear about Because I asked you earlier on, if you 7 A. Can you rephrase it, please? 8 Q. -- but I'm trying to ask you a clear 9 10 questions. just tell me so. 11 12 Again, if you don't understand it, please MR. HURD: He's answering your questions the best as he knows how. 13 MR. O'CONNOR: You may think that. I'm 14 giving him an opportunity to have it clarified, 15 which I've offered, and now I'm going to clarify 16 it. 17 18 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. If Mr. Castellanos did not shoot any bullets 19 at you and your partner fired off a couple of rounds, 20 it is possible that you may have fired back at 21 Mr. Castellanos who never shot at you at all? 22 A. It's possible. 23 Q. You -- just to be clear, you did not pull 24 Mr. Castellanos over; is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 295 1 A. I did not pull him over. 2 Q. He crashed basically and came to a stop and 3 4 didn't move again from that position; is that right? A. Correct. 5 6 7 (Short interruption.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Have you in your experience seen occasions 8 where you come up to a scene and there is some 9 yelling; and because there's yelling, people turn to 10 see what the yelling is and what the source of the 11 yelling is? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. In this instance, when you came to the 14 scene, there may have been some yelling, right? 15 A. Possibly. 16 Q. So Mr. Castellanos turning his head towards 17 you could simply have been him looking towards the 18 source of somebody yelling at him that he hasn't 19 identified yet, right? 20 A. Speculation, yes. 21 Q. So if Castellanos turns his head to the left 22 towards the driver's-side window and looks back to 23 see who it is running around behind him with guns 24 drawn, that's not unreasonable for the guy to look BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 296 1 and see who's behind him yelling at him with weapons 2 drawn, right? 3 A. Well, we had our police lights on, so it'd 4 probably give him an idea, and also yelling "Chicago 5 Police" at Mr. Castellanos. 6 Q. It's still not unusual no matter what you 7 yelled at him -- I don't care what it might be. If 8 you've got weapons drawn, you pull up on somebody at 9 5 to 3:00 in the morning and you're yelling, that the 10 guy actually look out the window and look behind him 11 to see what's going on, maybe to see if he can ask 12 you a question; that's not unreasonable? 13 A. It's a possibility. 14 Q. So the fact that he turned and looked toward 15 you and, as you might have called it, tracking, all 16 that simply means is that he's turned his head and 17 he's looking to you. 18 side or diving or rolling, or whatever you're doing, 19 if he looks at you and continues to look at you, 20 that's not against the law, is it? And if you're running to the 21 A. Looking at me is not against the law, no. 22 Q. Okay. In other words, Mr. Castellanos would 23 have a right to look at you and to follow you as you 24 moved if he was to look at you, and he would be well BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 297 1 within his rights and not violating any law at that 2 time; is that correct? 3 A. Well, those actions followed the threat of 4 me looking down the barrel of a gun, so I perceived 5 those actions as a threat. 6 7 Q. Let's assume for a moment that there was no gun because they didn't find one. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. If Mr. Castellanos was looking at you and 10 turning to look at you as you moved behind him, that 11 act in and of itself, he has a right to do and he's 12 not violating any law, right? 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. But that act also came at the actions of an arm extended in my direction holding a dark object. Q. Did Mr. Castellanos have a right to stay in his car seated when you pulled up? A. Yes. MR. O'CONNOR: What number are we on, please? 20 MR. HURD: 8. If we're going to do this, 21 can we take a break? 22 MR. O'CONNOR: 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 24 Videotape No. 4. Of course. This will conclude We're going off the record at BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 298 1 4:15 p.m. 2 (A short break was had.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 4 video record. 5 Videotape No. 5 of the deposition of Officer 6 Juan Martinez. 7 10 Counsel? Q. Sir, I'm showing you Exhibits 8 and 9. reviewing the police reports in this matter? A. I have not seen these documents. 12 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen anything like that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. All right. 16 Have you seen those documents before in the course of 11 13 This is BY MR. O'CONNOR: 8 9 The time is 4:21 p.m. Does it appear to you that those are -- that's a drawing of sorts? 17 A. It's a drawing, yes, of sorts. 18 Q. Does it lay out streets? 19 A. It does lay out streets. 20 Q. Does it lay out Wilson? 21 A. It shows Wilson Avenue, yes. 22 Q. Does it show basically the intersection of 23 where this occurrence took place with some markings 24 of boxes that would equate to the positioning of the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 299 1 2 3 vehicles that are relevant in this matter? A. I wouldn't know with certainty if these are correct or not. 4 Q. Have you ever drafted a police officer? 5 A. Have I drafted a police report? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 Yes. You ever draft a police report from an accident, a car accident? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you ever do a drawing? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you ever draw vehicles on those drawings? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you use rectangles typically? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Sometimes you use a triangle to show the 16 direction -- 17 A. The front. 18 Q. -- that the vehicle was facing, right? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. That's basically what's on that drawing, 21 isn't it? 22 A. Could be. 23 Q. And the markings are also showing basically 24 where the bullet casings were found at the scene, and BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 300 1 on the latter pages it actually says that; is that 2 true? 3 A. It shows a listing of casings, yes. 4 Q. Okay. And looking at that document, does 5 that seem to reflect accurately the position of the 6 vehicles? 7 8 A. I would need time to look this document over. 9 Q. Help yourself. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. All right. I've looked it over. Does that document seem to lay 12 out the positioning of the vehicles involved in this 13 occurrence that we've been talking about here today 14 along with the bullet casings that you've seen 15 photographs of? 16 A. It seems to, to show that, yes. 17 Q. Okay. Do you see anything on that document 18 that appears to be incorrect or inaccurate given what 19 you've see in photographs and what you saw at the 20 scene? 21 22 23 24 A. Not at this time, I don't see any discrepancies. Q. When -- when the other police officers arrived to the scene, did they block off an area BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 301 1 around the occurrence? 2 A. I believe so. 3 Q. They basically set up a perimeter; is that 4 right? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. And the purpose of that is to not let 7 anybody in and not let anybody out? 8 A. Protect the scene. 9 Q. So that's correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Did anybody indicate to you in any way that 12 the scene that was protected by the perimeter that 13 was set up was in any way breached? 14 A. That was not related to me, no. 15 Q. What else -- you told me a little bit about 16 what your partner, Mr. Lawryn, had said to you about 17 what happened. 18 happened at this occurrence aside from what you've 19 already told me, if anything? 20 21 22 A. What else did he tell you about what I believe that's -- what I told you is pretty much what he told me. Q. At the scene of the occurrence after 23 Mr. Castellanos had been shot and after you covered 24 your partner while he handcuffed Mr. Castellanos, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 302 1 what did you say to your partner and what did he say 2 to you while you were waiting for the ambulance to 3 arrive? 4 A. 5 don't recall. 6 Q. 7 I Did either one of you guys say, let's find that gun? 8 9 I don't remember us saying anything. A. I was possibly checking my body for bullet holes. 10 Q. Okay. Again, I don't really want to know 11 what you possibly might have been doing. 12 you a specific question. 13 you or Mr. Lawryn, say anything to each other about 14 trying to find any gun? 15 16 A. Q. 21 22 23 24 We did not say anything to each other about Did you see Mr. Lawryn do anything that appeared to be in an effort to look for a gun? 19 20 Did either one of you guys, finding a gun. 17 18 I'm asking A. I did not see Officer Lawryn looking for a Q. Were you concerned at that point in time gun. that there may be a gun? A. I think at that time after he was handcuffed and we secured his hands, I was concerned if I was BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 303 1 shot. 2 3 Q. a gun? 4 5 6 So you were not concerned about there being A. I would be concerned also if there was a Q. Okay. gun. Well, if there's a gun, then there's 7 a possibility of having further damage if there's any 8 damage at all, right? 9 A. Well, I think you would check yourself if 10 you believe you were shot in the head. 11 probably check your body, and that's probably what I 12 was doing. 13 14 Q. All right. You'd Did you have to take any time off of work after this occurrence? 15 A. I was given a few days off. 16 Q. Aside from being given a few days off, did 17 you have to take any time off of work due to any 18 medical reason? 19 20 21 A. When I -- further down the road when I had an agent come to my house, I took some time off. Q. Okay. Did you take time off to talk to the 22 agent or you took some time off for some other 23 reason? 24 A. For other reason. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 304 1 Q. What was that? 2 A. Just looking for support. 3 Q. When you said you were given some time off 4 after the occurrence, who gave you time off and how 5 much time off were you given? 6 A. I had some -- a few days. 7 the number of days. 8 MR. HURD: 9 10 I'm not exact on It could have been -I think they typically give them three days. BY THE WITNESS: 11 A. Possibly three days. 12 Q. And was that for any particular reason that 13 14 was told to you? A. Usually it's a de-escalation, 15 depressurizing. 16 incident. 17 18 Q. I mean, it was a tragic, traumatic Was your partner given any time off after the occurrence? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. Do you know if -- if I asked you this, I 21 apologize, but do you know if Officer Lawryn talked 22 to any FBI agent? 23 A. I don't believe so. 24 Q. When you spoke to the FBI agent, was BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 305 1 Detective Lawryn with you? 2 A. Officer Lawryn was not with me. 3 Q. Excuse me, I meant officer. 4 5 Did you ever tell Officer Lawryn that you did talk to a FBI agent? 6 A. I mentioned -- yes, I did tell him. 7 Q. Did you ask him if he had to talk to the 9 A. If I -- if I asked him? 10 Q. Did you ask Officer Lawryn if Officer Lawryn 8 11 FBI? had to talk to the FBI? 12 A. I asked him if he talked to them, yes. 13 Q. And what did he tell you? 14 A. He said he told them that they could contact 15 16 his attorneys. Q. So to your knowledge, Officer Lawryn did not 17 talk to the FBI; he simply told the FBI to go through 18 his lawyers? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And the lawyers that he would be referring 21 to in that circumstance would be criminal lawyers as 22 opposed to Mr. Hurd, who's your civil lawyer; is that 23 correct? 24 A. I'm not sure which attorneys. It could be BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 306 1 our union attorneys, I'm not sure. 2 MR. O'CONNOR: I know that we've gotten a 3 lot of documents back and forth, and I don't 4 know if there's anything else out there we're 5 still chasing down that would be relevant to 6 this particular individual. 7 that at this time. 8 finished for the day. 9 10 MR. HURD: But shy of that, I think I'm Okay. MR. O'CONNOR: 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 13 today's testimony. 14 No. 5. 16 17 18 19 Thank you. We'll reserve signature. 11 15 I don't anticipate Okay. Thank you. This will now conclude This will conclude Videotape We are going off the record at 4:31 p.m. THE COURT REPORTER: And you said e-trans, right? MS. RUSSELL: Yeah, e-tran. (WHEREUPON, signature was reserved and the deponent was excused.) 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 307 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION MICHELLE CASTELLANOS, as Independent Executor of the Estate of ESAU CASTELLANOS, ) ) ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER SHAWN ) LAWRYN, CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER ) JUAN MARTINEZ, and CITY OF ) CHICAGO, a municipal corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) No. 14 C 1841 I, JUAN MARTINEZ, state that I have read the 12 foregoing transcript of the testimony given by me at 13 my deposition on the 29th day of January, 2015, and 14 that said transcript constitutes a true and correct 15 record of the testimony given by me at said 16 deposition except as I have so indicated on the 17 errata sheets provided herein. 18 ________________________ JUAN MARTINEZ 19 20 21 22 23 24 No corrections (Please initial) ____________________ Number of errata sheets submitted ____________(pgs.) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this ________ day of __________________, 2015. _________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 308 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 CASE NAME: Castellanos v. Lawryn, et al. 3 CASE NUMBER: 14 C 1841 4 WITNESS: OFFICER JUAN MARTINEZ 5 REPORTER: Kathy A. O'Donnell 6 I wish to make the following changes for the following reasons: 7 8 PAGE LINE 9 _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Signed:__________________________Date:______________ BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 309 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 CASE NAME: Castellanos v. Lawryn, et al. 3 CASE NUMBER: 14 C 1841 4 WITNESS: OFFICER JUAN MARTINEZ 5 REPORTER: Kathy A. O'Donnell 6 I wish to make the following changes for the following reasons: 7 8 PAGE LINE 9 _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Signed:__________________________Date:______________ BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 310 1 CERTIFICATE 2 OF 3 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 4 5 I, Kathy A. O'Donnell, a Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter of the State of Illinois, CSR License 7 No. 084-004466, do hereby certify; 8 9 That previous to the commencement of the examination of the aforesaid witness, the witness was 10 duly sworn by me to testify the whole truth 11 concerning the matters herein; 12 That the foregoing deposition transcript was 13 stenographically reported by me and was thereafter 14 reduced to typewriting under my personal direction 15 and constitutes a true and accurate record of the 16 testimony given and the proceedings had at the 17 aforesaid deposition; 18 19 That the said deposition was taken before me at the time and place specified; 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 311 1 That I am not a relative or employee or 2 attorney or counsel for any of the parties herein, 3 nor a relative or employee of such attorney or 4 counsel for any of the parties hereto, nor am I 5 interested directly or indirectly in the outcome of 6 this action. 7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my 8 hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 12th day of February, 9 2015. 10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________ KATHY A. O'DONNELL, CSR, RPR CSR License No. 084-004466 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900