Witness P Testimony - Nova Kasaba soccer field

Witness {Upon Session) I'agc Z'?Mll Iikuminud hy Mr. llurmun 1 Friday, 14* April ECOC 2 [Open session] 3 [The witness entered court] Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m. [The accused entered court] 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [interpretation] Good 7 morning, ladies and gentlemen: qood morning to the 8 interpreters. I can hear you too. Thank you. The 9 technical booth, the legal assistants, the Prosecution, 10 the Defence, the court reporters, General Krstic. Good 11 morning to you all. I also wish the public good I 12 morning. 13 We already have a witness in the courtroom. 14 I think it is Witness P. You're now going Lo read the 15 solemn declaration that the usher is going to give 16 you. Please go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] solemnly IH declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, 19 and nothing but the truth. 20 THE WITNESS: WITNESS 21 [Witness answered through interpreter] 22 JUDGE RDDRIGUES: |Tnterpretation] Please be 23 seated- Are you comfortable, Witness 24 THE WITNESS: I'm fine, thank you. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you ?as;NurTsxa1n' wines; wma l- (Open Scssiml Fasatninud by Mr. 1 had a good rest? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 JUDGE RODRTGUES: [Interpretation] So please 4 be at ease. I think iL is Mr. Harmon who is going to puL questions to you, so for the moment you will be 6 answering quesLions put to you by the Prosecutor. 7 Mr. Harmon, you have the Floor. 8 Excuse me. Yes, there is a minor matter that 9 we have to attend Lo. Witness P, Lhe registrar is 10 going to show you a piece of paper with your name 11 written on it. Look at it, please, and tell us, simply 12 by saying yes or ne, whether that is indeed your name. 13 THE WLTNESS: Yes. 14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [lnterpretationl So it is 15 your name indeed. 16 THE WTTNESH: Yes. l? JUDGE HGDRIGUES: [TntetpreLaLionQ Fine. So, 19 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor now. 19 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, 20 Your Honours; good morning, eounsel; good morning, 21 Witness P. 22 Mr. President, before I begin my examination 23 of WiLneos P, I just want Lo inform Your Honours LhaL 24 after Witness we have one additional witness Lo eall 25 for today, and aL the end ot the testimony of the Friday. 14 April 2000 Case Nu. IT-9B-33-T wine 1'(0pcn sagem; 10*2 Flnmincd by Mr. Harmnn 1 second witness we would like Lo introduce some 2 documents. The introduction of those documents will 3 not take more than lb minuLes. So we can schedule the 4 day accordingly. brinq that to Your Honours' atLenLion and will now commence my examination of 6 Witness F. JUDGE [Interpretation] Yes. Allow me to say to you that all the witnesses are very 9 Special. l0 MR. HARMON: Thank you. ll Examined hy Mr. Harmon: 12 Q. Witness P, could you tell us how old you areMuslim by Leith? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Before the creation of the UN sate area of TT Srebrenica, were you a member of the TerriLorial 18 Defence? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were you wounded? 21 A. I was wounded on the 16th of June, 1992, by 22 orders of the army command, or rather Lhe Territorial 23 Defence. was appointed to workinq on the collection 24 of humanitarian aid in the local community. 25 Q. So tollowinq your injury you were released Friday. 14 Avril 2000 cm No. wames; wimm (Open samnl l'?as= 2943 mu muh hhinmmn 1 from the Territorial Defence? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. At the time of the tall of the enclave in 4 July of 199h, were you a member of the Bosnian Muslim army? 6 A. I was not. 7 Q. Now, T'd like to focus your attention on 8 fall of the enclave in July of 1995, specifically on 9 11th of duly, 199b. AL Lhat point in time were you 10 marries and did you nave children? 11 A. Yes. was married and had four children. 12 O. And could you tell the Judges wrat happened 13 on the of July that caused you and your family to 14 go in different directions? 15 A. We simply received orders from the civilian 16 sLructures that enclave of Srebrenica. Our assignment was thaL all of 18 us should go towards especially Lhe men, 19 whereas the men [sic] and women went Lo UNPROFOR, to 20 Uotocari. We goL to a hill called Lehovici, where we 21 split up. So all the women and children went to Lhe 22- battalion compound in DoLecari and the men Lowards 23 Susnjari. 24 O. Why was there a distincLicn between wdere the 25 women went and where the men went? Fridnv. I4 Apuil zum cm No. Hxamincnl by Mr. Ilammn 1 A. Simply we didn't dare. We didn't dare go to 2 Potoeari_ We eou1dn't trust them. So only the women 3 and chi dren dared gc to Potoeari. 4 Q. When you say "we eouldn't trust then," who are you referring Lo as "them"? 6 A. The Serbs, because when they captured the 7 enclave, they controlled the UN. They took their vehicles. They occupied the enclave. Ho we didn't 9 dare go to Potooari. 10 G. Now, Susnjari, how many men gathered -- men 11 and boys gathered at that location, approximately? 12 A. The figure ranqed between thirteen and 13 fifteen thousand, auoording to the municipal 14 authorities. The figure cculd not be established, but 15 I think it was between thirteen and fifteen thousand. T6 Q. De you know the range of ages of those males 17 who had gathered at Susnjari? 18 A. From 16 to 50 or 60 maybe. Though there were 19 Some women, or rather girls, who followed their RU boyfriends there, men. A smaller number of women, 21 maybe some RUG or 300. 22 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of men P3 amongst that group who were armed? 24 A. Well, about one third had weapons in that 25 group. Friday. 14 2000 Cuz sa wma; (Open Session) Pm 29*5 Examined by Mr. Ilnmum 0. witness P, did you have a weapon? 2 A. Ne, I did not- 3 Q- Now, 1 understand that the people in that 4 qroup of approximately 15.000 people left the`enclave 5 in a column; is that correct? 5 A. Yes. The column was formed- The order was 7 that we had to pass through Serb lines. So it was 8 about 7.200 kilometers te free territory, to Tuzla, so we had to break through the lines. And the column was 10 formed at the very entrance to the place Bulfim, so 11 this column was some ten kilometers long. 12 O. And in which direction did the column 13 advance? 14 A. It advanced towards Konjevie Polje. We lb passed Nova Kasaha and then on towards Tuzla. 16 O. Now, Witness P, T'm not going to ask you 17 questions about your experiences in the woods 10 perhaps the Judges would like to inquire about that, 19 perhaps counsel will inquire ahout that but want 20 to fast-forward Lhe experiences Lhat you had to Lhe 21 13th of duly, when there was a decision taaen by you 22 and by others to surrender to the Bosnian Serb army. 23 Can you tell the Judqes, did you surrender, and can you 24 tell the Judges why you did? 25 A. Yes. My group -- a relative ot mine was Friday. I4 April 2000 cm Nu. wamsm (ope sammy Pm Examined by Mr. Harmon seriously wounded, my cousin, and there was a small 2 group left of some 30 men. The night between the 12Lh 3 and the 13th we were cut off from Lhe big column. We 4 were in a stream. It was foggy. We dion't know where 5 we were. 8 In the morning there was heavy shelling. Shells were falling around us. There was an ultimatum. They were calling us out on the loudspeaker 9 that we had Lo surrender, that we should carry Lhe 10 wounded, that we should be exchanged, according to the 11 Geneva Conventions, Lhat no one would be heard. There l2 was a lot of hesitation amongst us whether we should 13 try to pull out or to surrender to the Serh soldiers at 14 Kravica. And after a time they said they would begin lh the countdown, and the order was to collect the 16 wounded. A number of people were killing themselves, 17 committing suicide. They didn't want to surrender. 1H When we carried down the wounded to Kravica, a Column 19 was formed towards Konjevic Polje. ZG Q. Now, you said a numoer oI people committed 2l suicide. Did you see people commit suicide, and do you 22 know why they did commiL suicide? 23 A. Yes. Yes, I did see it. don't know. 24 There were poisons that were being thrown, poisonous 25 gases, and people lost control. They knew more or less 14 April 2000 Cas: No. IT-98-33-T wauleg; 1* (Open Session) FW 29*7 Exnmimd by Mr. Harmon 1 what lay in store for them, that they would he killed 2 or put into camps. And I saw two brothers. i don't 3 know their names. First they embraced each other. 4 They had an automatic rifle. There was a scream. They opened a burst of [ire to one another. Then there was 6 another group oi people that threw a bomb into the 7 group, and then four or tive of them were wounded. 8 Q. Now, Witness P, I'm going to ask you to talk 9 just a little bit slower, because the interpreters need 10 to follow your testimony. ll A. Yes, I'll do that. 12 JUDGE RTAD: Excuse me new the group of 13 people who threw the bomb they were from the group of 14 Muslims or the group of Serbs? 1 5 MLK . HARMON: 16 Q. Did the people that throw the bomb that you 17 Qust testified ahout, were they Muslims committing 18 suicide or were they Serbs killing Muslims? 19 A. 1 think it was Muslims who were killing 20 themselves. I heard that they may have been Serhs 21 too. At that moment, 1 eouldn't distinguish one from 22 the other. They were all mixed together. 23 JUDGE RIAD: And the poisonous gases, they 2d were thrown by the Muslims to commit suicide? Zh A- No, it was the shells with poisonous gases. Fridry. I4 April 2000 cm Nu. 1? (Open P?s? 2948 1 could feel it myself, my eyes were stinginq and one 2 was very thirsty and one could feel it on one's own 3 skin. 4 MR. PARMUN: Q. Now, Witness P, how many people alonq with 6 you went down to surrerder on the 13th of duly? A. I said that there may have been some 3G men in my group; didn't count them. We had four or five 9 wounded. And on the asphalt road, we came across a 10 large group that had surrendered at Konjevie Polje, 11 there were 300 or so people and they had some 2C T2 wounded. 13 THE LNTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to 14 move away from the microphone, please. 15 MR. HARMON: 16 Q. I've been asked by the interpreters if you 11 can move a 1iLt1e bit away from the microphone. 1E New, Witness P, when you surrendered Lo Lhe 19 Bosnian Serb soldiers. Can you describe their 20 appearance, how they were dressed? 21 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms in dark bLue, dark blue camouflaqe uniforms. 23 Q, Did you see any people in dark qreen 24 camouflage uniforms? 25 A. het me see. At that moment, I didn'f really Friday, I4 April 2000 ers: Nrr. wume; wamm (up;-n seem) P?a= 10**0 Examined by Mr. Harmon 1 distinquish. We were all frightened. I know Lhet they 2 all had eamouflaqe uniforms. Whether they were lighter 3 in colour or darker in nolour, I really oou1dn't tell. 4 Q. Now, do you knew the difference between 5 police eamouflage uniforms and army camouflage uniforms? A. AL Lhe time, didn't, but later saw on television that there was difference, but at that 9 moment, I really ean'L remember whether there was any 1C difference. 11 Q. All right. Tell Lhe Judges what happened 12 after you surrendered; where did you go? 13 A. When we carried down the group of wounded to 14 Konjovie Pnlje, Lhis group of mine, between 250 and 300 15 men. ih The order was to lay down the wounded at the 17 cross roads at Konjevie Polje. One of the Serbs told 18 us that they would take over Lhe eare of the wounded. 19 They put us up in a hanqar which used to be a kind of 20 shopping area and some people started brinqing water, 21 but it wasn't enouqh. There were only two or three 22 husket fulls of water. 23 We stayed there for some 20 minuLes and then 24 the order came to uet on to trucks. 1 ran out and 25 saw three or four trucks. don'L remember exactly Avril 2000 cm wp. rr-rm-in-?l? wimm: wimss (cpm swam) P?e? 2950 by Mr. HIIHIUII 1 whether there were three or four. They were parked at 2 the very cressreans aL Kenjevic Pelje. 3 The trucks were facing Miliei and Neva 4 Kasaba. The trucks were covered with canvas. I 5 c?uldn't see, and den'; remember Lhe licence plates 6 nor whom they helonoed to but i Lhink they were civilian trucks. They had canvas cevers, and I think Lhey belonged te the Beksii company, i Lhink. I'm not 9 sure. And we had tn climb on te the Lrueks and the 10 truck i was in started towards Neva Kasaba. 11 Then we passed a sports field that used to he 12 used hefere the war, and Lhe order was Le get off the 13 hue, the truck, T'm sorry. when we sLarted getting off 14 te our right-hand side, I saw a qreup ef Serh soldiers 15 whe were weitinq for us there. 15 The order was thaL all the equipment that we IT had on us, except tor meney and gold, which they had 18 Laken fren us aL Lhe very beginning in Kravica, Lhat we 19 had tn threw these things on te a big pile. And there 20 was a biq pile cf bags and backpacks and there were 21 some poplar trees there, and we got off the truck in a 22 line and entered Lhis stadium. 23 The stadium was full ef men. According to my 24 estimaLe, there were between 2.500 tn 3.000 men and 25 Lhey were all sittinq there in a - wiLhin the Fridny. Anri12000 cu: nn. n`-on-as-T 1 compound. And my group that got ott the trucks, we 2 formed a new row there in the playground, sports field. 3 MR. HARMON: Now, let me have Proseoutor's 4 Exhibit 12/4 and place this on the ELMO. 5 Q. witness P, I'm going to ask you if you ean identify this location thaL's depicted in this image. Do you recognise that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. This is the stadium at Nova Kasaba. This is 11 the goal [indicates]. And we stopped here somewhere 12 next to the trees- This is the road to Konjevio Pelle 13 to Nova Kasaba, and this is where I entered the stadium 14 [iudieatesj, the sports field. 15 MR. HARMON: Indicating for Lhe record that 15 the entry into the stadium was midway along the line of 17 trees that boarders the road that goes from the top of 1H the image to the bottom of the image. 19 Q. Now, this stadium, this football field, is 20 the location where you said there were thousands ot men 21 on it; is that correct? 22 A. Yes, yes, yes. 23 H3. HARMON: I'm finished with that image. 24 Thank you very much. Ph Q. Can you tell the Judges, was the toothall Friday, I4 April 2000 Casa Nc. wines; (Opcn Scssiuul 2952 Examined by Mr. Hannon 1 pitch - how many men were on the pitch and how much of 2 the area of the football field was covered by those 3 men? 4 A. didn't quite understand your question. You 5 mean the Bosniaksaqain. Did the Bosnian Muslim men cover the entire football pitch, half of the pitch, 8 a quarter of the pitch? 9 A. think that the whole pitch was severed. 10 Q. New, did you see Bosnian Serb soldiers in and 11 around the Muslim men who were detained at the football 12 pitch? 13 A. Bosnian Serb soldiers, about 15 to 2U of them 14 were waitinq for us at the very entrance gates armed 15 with rifles and they gave us orders. They swore at us 16 and ordered us to enter the pitch. Within the pitch 17 itself, around ns who were sitting there, there were 18 Serb soldiers with their guns pointed at us. They were 19 swearing and qiving us orders. 2U Q. Can you estimate the number of soldiers that 21 you saw around you and the other men at the football 22 pitch? 23 A. 1 can't give you an exact estimate because, 24 after ali, i: was a long time aqc, but there were 15 tc 2h 20 at the very entrance. As for the total, in any Frida. l4 Avril 2000 Cam: Nu. rr-98-ss-1* wma; 1- (Open seam) 2953 1 there were many in the field, at least 100 or 2 so. But that may not he the correct figure. 3 Q. Do you remember how they were dressed? 4 A. Also they had camoutlage uniforms on. On one soldier, I cou1dn'L notice any rank. He may have had 5 insignia, but they all had camouflage uniforms. 7 Q. Now, continue with your -- describing your experiences at the football field, please. 9 A. So when my group entered and when we sat 10 down, after some 15 or 2U minutes behind my hack I saw 11 an APC of olive-green colour arriving, and 1 saw 12 several soldiers around the personnel carrier. And 13 then a big man came out of the APC, some 30 to AU 14 metres away from me. And when he passed by me, he 15 turned around and asked whether we recognised him. I 16 knew him from the media and he introduced himself. He 17 said that he was the commander ot the Serb army, that 18 he was General Ratko Mladic. 19 He was a heavy man with a short cut, RU well-shaved with some receding hairlines in a 21 short--sleeved shirt. And when he stood in front of us, 22 I don't remember whether it was a podium or a couple of 23 steps, - don't know. 24 He started insulting and cursing us. "Wherc 2h is your state? What are you dying tor? Where is Your Friday, I4 April case No. wines; (Own sesamn I Examined by Mr. Harmon 1 Alija? Where is Haris Silajdzie? Where are your 2 leading commanders? Naser Urie and Zulfe Tursunovin. 3 You are laying down your lives and you've left your 4 women and children for us to care for them." 5 And there were other sueh insulting words and 5 then the -- at Lhe end he said, "Your authorities in 7 Tuzla don'L want you. So we will put you up. Our troops will give you water and feed, and Lhen we'1l see 9 wheLher we'11 send you te Krajina, Le Fikret Abdie or 10 Lo the Bijeijina camp to the BaLkovici camp in 11 Bijeljina." 12 Then orders came for Lhe trucks. I was towards the end ef the field, and 14 we headed towards Lhe trucks- 1 also saw the trucks 15 waiting on Lhe read, three er [our trucks, and 1 Lhink 16 there was a bus belonging to Beksit Trans from Miliei. 17 They were waiting en the read in fronL ef the exit from 18 the playing field. 19 My group of men who -- the group that was 20 moving with me, when we were going through the gates, 21 sumeeno said that we should pick up the baqs. And Serb 22 soldiers were guarding the gates and the bags. One of 23 the group ef Serb soldiers said te us, "You won'; need 26 thaL any 1enger." Probably they were thinking of what 25 Lhey were going Lhe trunks Friday. I4 April 2000 cu: Nu. wma; (open Session} 29*5 I?umm 1 again. 2 Q. Let me stop you right there for a moment, 3 Witness P, and ask you two questions. 4 Do you remember approximately what time of 5 the day it was when you and others started to board the 6 trucks? 1 A. think it was about 1700 hours or 5.00 in the afternoon. Somewhere around b,00, between 5.00 and 9 6.00 in the afternoon. 10 Q. Was the statement made by the Bosnian Serb 11 soldier that you wou1dn't need your bags anymore made 12 at about that same time? 13 A. Yes. As we were leaving the football pitch 14 and about to climb on to the trucks, I heard one of the Jb Serb soldiers saying when one of our men wanted to piek 16 up his bag. I heard him telling him, "You won't need 17 that oaq anymere." 10 Q. My last question about this part of your 19 experience: Did you receive any food and any water 20 while you were at the football pitch? 21 A. Never. Far from it. I don't know whether 22 anyone asked For any water, but none was distributed 23 anyway. 24 Q. 1 interrupted you, Witness P, when you were 25 reoountinq your story about getting on to the truck. Friday, 14 April 2000 Case: Nu wma; wines (opal scum; 2956 1 Would you please carry on from that poinL in time. 2 A. Yes. So we climbed on to the truck. I don'L 3 know how many trucks Lhcre were thaL became full at 4 Lhat point- My Lruck started ouL right away- There 5 was an order for the trucks Lo move. So we went in the 6 direeLion of Konfevio Polje, that ls along the same 7 road we had used Lo come there, to get there. when we reached the junction with Konjevic 9 Polje, Lhe Lruck turned righL aqain in the direeLion of 1G BraLunac. And then we arrived in Kravica. 1 knew 11 Kravica very well because I had passed Lhreugh Kraviea 12 on a number of occasions hetore Lhe war. And we 13 stopped ncar a supermarkeL. 14 My truck -- well in my truck, we happened to 15 count ourselves, and there were 119 people on my 16 truck. we were sitting on each oLher's laps on the 11 floor, on the bed or the Lruck with our legs crossed. 18 I was towards the rear part of the trunk which was 19 covered by canvas. Those were very large canvases, and 2U at the back of the truck, you could see through because 21 Lherc was a half a meLre opening at that point. 22 So 1 told you I was sitting in Lhe back of 23 the truck. And as the truck was turning right, I saw 21 thaL Lhcre were two trucks behind us. All o* them were 25 facing the direction oI Bratunae. Friday. I4 April 2000 Cac Nu. l'1'-98-33-T wa. wsmaiv com Pm 1 lt was getting dark at that point, and people 2 were getting nervous. The Serb soldiers who were 3 guarding the trucks, who were standing guaro around the 4 trucks started mistreating people, hitting them with 5 rifle butts through the canvas of the trucks. They 6 would hit people who sat next to the side of the truck and they went on torturing them. 8 Then they asked about people from specific 9 villages from around the area of Srebrenica, the 10 villages of Glogova, Osmac and other villages. I don't 11 know why they asked for people from those villages. 12 If anyone stood up, they would take him out. 13 We spent the whole night on the trucks and we could 14 hear screams, moaning, cries for help. Screams again. 15 People shouting, "Please, don't beat me- Don't kill 16 me. Don't butcher me." Tt was so terribleeouldn't take it anymore. know that five 18 people were taken off my truck during that night. 19 didn't see them being killed there on the spot, but 20 they didn'L come back to the truck. I don't know their 21 names. And bursts of qunfire could be heard throughout 22 the night, coming from around the trucks, and the 23 screams of people, and this lasted all night long. 24 Q. Witness P, were there two other trucks 25 parked -- Friday, I4 April 2000 Nu. wanna 1- {cpm Session) Pm 2958 Lixuminad by Mr. llarmun 1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Sorry to 2 interrupt you, Mr. Harmon, but think there is a 3 problem with tne transcript. 4 [Technical diffieultyl 5 Break taken at a.m. On resuming at 10.21 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: |Tntercretation' We shall resume, Mr. Harmon. You may continue, please. 9 MR. HARMON: EG Q. Witness U, the technical problem has been 11 resolved and we'1l continue with your testimony. 12 Now -- 13 A. Thank you. 14 O. have placed on the ELMU, to your right, a L5 map, and 1'd like you to take a look at that map. And 16 if you could use the pointer, first of all, could you 17 point to the Location where you were detained at the 18 football field. 19 A. At the football field, this was here, between 23 Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje [ind'cates]. 21 Q. And you were taken in a truck to a different 22 location, where you spent the night, and you've just 23 been describing your experiences at that location. 24 Could you point to that location for the Judqes, 25 please. Friday. I4 April 1000 can No. IT-98-33-T (cpm seam) 2959 Hnminsd hy Mr. 1 A. So we went baek towards Konjevio Polje, and 2 then Lowards Sandici and Kravica [indicates]. And this 3 was all along Lhe road towards Bratunao. And this is 4 where we spent the night, on the trucks. 5 MR. HARMON: Indioatinq, for the reoord, Lhe 5 pointer is on the village of Kravica. 7 Thank you, Witness P. Thank you, Mr. Usher. T'm finished with that 9 exhibit. 1C O. Now Witness P, toousinq your attention on Lhe 11 night of Lhe 13th and the early morning hours of the 12 14Lh, while you were in the truck, did you receive any 13 water? Did you receive any tood? l4 A. While we were in the Lruek, during the 15 morning we go: only one bucket of water. don'L know 16 who iL was who brought Lhe water, but it was hardly a 17 drop for all of us. You oan image. It was only one 18 jerrycan of water, and we were 119. We didn't qeL any 19 food either. 20 O. Now, do 1 understand your tesLim?ny correctly 21 that in addition to your trunk LhaL was at that 22 location in Kravioa, there were two other trucks 23 nearby? 24 A. could see behind my truck Lwo additional 25 trucks. Whether there were any other trucks, don't Friday. I4 April 2000 Cm: Nu. IT-98-33-T wanna; 10pm smiunl PW 296** Examined hy Mr. 1 know. I couldn't guarantee. know that there were 2 two more trucks, so in total there would have been 3 Lhree trucks, including mine. I don't know whether 4 there were any trucks ahead of us. That I couldn't see 5 because of the canvases. 6 O. Can you describe the Lype of uniform beinq worn by Lhe Bosnian Serb soldiers who were in and 8 around your truck on Lhe night of the 13Lh and the 9 early morning hours of the 14th? 10 A. 1 said that they all had a camouflage ll uniform. To be perfectly honest. I eouLdn't Lell the T2 difference. wasn'L familiar with :haL. And then we 13 were in greaL fear. We had been beaten and we didn'L 14 dere look outside. People were cursing at us all Lhe Th time. They were misrreating us. And 1 know Lhat there 16 was one young man who did not cross over. A Serb 17 soldier out a gun, the barrel of his gun, in his TH mouth. And the situaLion was terrible. it was so 19 hot. Tt was sLuffy. Eeople didn't have any water, any 20 food. And somebody tried and asked for water. Tt was 21 toLal chaos. 22 And aL one point we could hear screams. It 23 was compleLe madness. We could hear curses, and this 24 soldier cursed his balija moLher and he put a barrel of 25 his gun into his mouLh. I don't know this man. And he Friday. 14 Avril 1000 cm Nu. warms; r? (Open sammy 2961 lmaumu hmnhummr 1 did not reach the free Lerritory. But the soldier told 2 me, "1 will kill you and ten other people if 1 hear 3 anoLher word oeinq uttered in Lhe truek." 4 And then everything went si1enL, and then 5 perhaps after 20 minuLee or half an hour, people 6 starLed screaming again, asking for water, for help, and I could see people their own urine, trying to molsten Lheir lips with Lheir own urine. Se you can 9 image how it was, and 1L was all in terrible heat under l0 Lhe canvas . 11 Q. Can you estimate how hot it was? 12 A. The eutside temperature must have been around 13 28 or 30 degrees, so 1 don't know how hot it would have 14 been under a canvas. I don't know what the temperalure 15 would he. 15 Q. How long did you remain at that Loeation in 17 Kravica before you were transported Lo a different 18 location? 19 A. At Kraviea, on Lhe 14th of July, when it 90 dawned, mistreatment sLarted again, and we spent the 21 whole day in the Lruck again. And sometime in the 22 afternoon -- nobody had a waleh. It had all been Lakcn 23 away from us on the firsL day when we surrendered. 24 Nobody had any wateh, therefore. But 1 know that it 25 must have been in the afternoon, belween 2.00 ard 3.00 Fri?w. 1* Avril 2000 cme No rr-on-as-T wma; wma; (cpm sammy Pao 2962 Enminodby Mr. Harmon 1 in the afLernoon. 2 Q. Where did you qo? 3 A. At that point I heard somebody say that we 4 were going to Bazkovic, that Lhe trucks were leaving 5 for the BaLkovie camp. And the trucks thaL had been 6 facing Bratunac turned around and starLed back towards 7 Konjevic Polje. 8 Q. And after the trucks reached Konjevic Polje, 9 in which direction did they Lravcl? 1C A. So my truck conLinued right, in Lhe direction ll of Zvornik, and i could see, driving right behind us, 12 maybe some 1G motors away from us, started moving as 13 well. This truck was esoorLed by two Serb soldiers E4 wiLh rifles, who -- one of them was sitting next to the 15 driver and the other one was also in the cabin of the 16 truck and he was holding his rifle out through the ll window. It was pointing out. And we had been Lold QB earlier on in Kravioa Lhat should anyone try Lo jump 19 out of the truck, that they would kill Len people. So 20 I know thaL my truck was moving in Lho direction of 21 Zvornik. 22 We reached Zvornik. I knew the place very 23 well. But we passed through and continued after P4 Zvornik, and this is where women and children started Eh throwing rocks and stones on Lhe buses. I4 April Casa No. wma; 1= (Open sammy P?z? 2963 1 We continued then Lowards Karakaj, Lowards 2 the aluminum factory in Karakaj. That area was no 3 longer familiar to me, but we didn't Lravcl for very 4 long, and at one point the truck Lurnod 1eft.` It was 5 already evening. We didn't Lravcl for very lonq, maybe 6 only for about 15 minutes after Karakaj, a?Lcr the facLory. The Lruck therefore turned right, and we 9 could see Lhe trucks stopping, coming to a halt. I 10 could see that there was a schoolyard in the area, like 11 a small playground. 12 Q. Witness P, let me sLop you there for a l3 minuLe? 14 MR. HARMON: And if we could have again 15 placed on the ELMO, the small map. 16 Q. And I'd just like you to indicate on this 17 small map the direction of traval that you Look from 18 Kravica up Lo area past Zvornik. And I think the 19 map will have to he opened up. And just use the 20 pointer, please. 21 A. Kravica [indicates], Konjevic Poljc 22 LindicaLes], then we go down Lhe rivcr to the right of 23 Konjovic Polje, we come to Zvornik, Karakaj, and 24 somewhere there, to the left from Karaka]. wc came to 25 the school. Between the Dam and Karakaj, that js where Friduy. I4 April 2000 Nn. IT-98-33-T wma {Om Scsiml 2964 Examined by Mr. Harman 1 the school was. 2 Q. Thank you vary much. 3 MR. HARMON: And for the record, think it's 4 fairly clear from his description the rouLe he took 5 between Konievic Polje and the Drina River. He crossed 6 the Drinjaca River. The resL 1 think is very clear. He progressed up along Lhe Drina River, past Zvornik, to Karakaj, and lefL to an area near Petkovci. 9 Q. Thank you very much, Witness D. 10 MR. HARMON: And l'm finished with the 11 exhibit, Mr. Usher. 12 Q. Now, how long did it take you Lo travel from T3 Kravica Lo the school that you've just described? 14 A. Well, Tet me see. When we travelled by 15 public transport, iL Look about an hour, an hour and a 15 halt to reach Zvornik. So this was a little biL 1T further, so about an hour and a half. 1B Q. Will you Leli Lhe Judges what happened to you 19 and to the oLher men once you arrived at the playground 2U at Lhe school? 21 A. When we arrived at the playground of the 22 school, heard sporadic shooting. Then there was 23 noise, cursing, yelling. And suddenly my truck 24 stopped, and when it stopped I saw Lwo oLher trucks in 25 addition to mine, racing forward at the school Friday. 14 April 2000 Case Nu. Wimcn: (Open seam; Fw 2965 Examined by Mr. Harmon 1 playground. 2 The order was that we jump off the trucks, 3 one by one, and as we jumped off, the order was to put 4 our hands up behind our heads and to ehant aloud, "Lonq 5 live the Serb Republie" and "Srenreniea is Serh," and 6 maybe a few other words that 1 haven't remembered. And 1 as we were jumping out of the trucks and running, Serb 8 soldiers, in my estimate, some 2U or so, between the 9 truck and the school, formed two lines. And as we ran 10 between them, i said that we had to run and chant those 11 words. And usually everyone got hit, some with a rifle 12 butt on the back. Some were kicked, some were 13 slapped. And then we ran towards the school. 14 Towards the sehool there were some steps, 15 five or six steps going down, so that the rirst level 16 was lower than the yard itself. There was a double 17 door, and we ran inte the school, into a corridor. 18 There was a short hall. And aqain there were soldiers 19 there who were hitting us and beating us, and they 23 directed us to the right, up some steps leading 21 upstairs. There were several steps and then there's a 22 kind of landing and then the steps turned left to the 23 second floor. When 1 reached the second floor, as I 24 was running 1 eould see that there was an iron railing 25 in the corridor, and the classrooms were lined one next Friday. Ami! 2000 cm Nn. rms-sz-1? Witness; wana. {opal semi; 2966 Euniinnd by Mr. Hannon 1 to another. 2 I know that 1 entered classroom number 3. 1, 3 2, 3. Whether there was another classroom further on, 4 I'm not sure, but I think there was some other rooms 5 further down. When we entered the classroom, saw 6 that it was a scnool, and on the Iett-hand side of this 7 classroom there was a blackboard, and on the floor were some vinyl tiles, those that are glued on. There were 9 no school desks. All the windows were olosed. And it 10 was stuffy, we had travelled under the canvas 11 in the trucks. And as soon as entered I saw two men 12 who had been badly beaten up and covered in blood. At 13 first glance thought they were dead. knew one of 14 them in person. He's Munib Admovio, who was very badly 15 beaten. I could describe himjacket. I thought he was dead. 17 So we all sat down in rows. We had to form 1U those rows from the windows forward. The windows could 19 not be opened. There were two soldiers standing at the 20 doorway all the Lime, and they told us that we musn't 21 open the windows, that we must sit there, that we would 22 be given food and water. And so it went on until the 23 classroom was full. 24 As soon as it was filled np, other soldiers 2h started barging in, demanding money. They gavc us 15 Frirhv. April 2000 cm Nu. IT-98-33-T Wimus; Witness [Opal Session) Fw 2*7 or 20 minuLcs, otherwise 20 would be killed, it we 2 didn't collect a cerLain sum of money. I don't know 3 how much they said. They would close the door and go 4 out, and say, "Not a word." The men were tired as a 3 resulL of high temperatures. They didn't have any 6 water, and they sLarted yelling again, and again Lhey would come Lhrough the door, take people out, and one 8 could hear bursts of fire and shooting around the 9 school. No one dared look through Lhe window to see LU what was happening outside. ll Suddenly a young man tried to look out, and 12 someone shot him, and he was wounded in that l3 classroom. They said, "If anyone had money Jett in 14 Srebrenica, that they had hidden, let him tell us and lh we would take a car and go to Srebrenica, and that mar 16 would be saved and transported to Tuzla." However, l? said they had any money, because this was Lhe 1B third time they were searching us thoroughly and taking l9 everything away. 20 Suddenly, a relative, a neighbour of mine, 21 asked for water. However, he was turneo hack. A 22 second time when he went to look for waLer, he walked 23 out the door and he never came back. We could hear 24 [ire all the time. Darkness was beginning to fall. I 25 personally d1dn'L [eel well. I was having problems. I Friday, 14 Aprril 1000 Case Nu. IT-98-33-T 1 was feeling dizzy. somehow got Close to the window 2 to get some air, and Ln my estimate, there were abouL 3 200 men Ln that classroom. 4 And what happened, don'L really know 5 myself. Suddenly when came to a little, I could see 6 that there were only a few men left in the elassroomcould see on those tiles blood and 8 water, or rather urine, and then saw Munib Admovic, 9 who was trying to qeL up, and I asked him, "What has 10 happened?" And he eouldn't give me an answer. 11 Shortly after that two came in from the 12 outside, two soldiers, and gave orders, "Ihe next four 13 now." And saw Lhat I had to get up. I and Kadrija L4 Beoirevie, who was with me, and two other men, don'L 15 know. We went out together. When we reaohed Lhe 16 corridor in front of LhaL elassroom, next to the iron Q7 rallinq, there were four to five Serb soldiers in 18 uniforms as well, and they ordered us to take off 19 everything, to strip. And saw a whole pile of 20 elothinq and footwear and documents, ID cards, medical 21 ID eards, driving licences and that sort of thing. 22 took off my shoes, my socks. only had my vesL on, 23 and they leL me keep Lhat on. We had to turn out the 24 pockets of our trousers, every Little piece of paper, 25 so make sure there was nothing left. What was the Friday, I4 April 2000 Case Nn. wma (opal Session) Pas 2969 Liauunimd by Mr. IISHHUII 1 reason For this, I don't knowstand against this iron 3 railing and the order was to put our hands behind our 4 backs which is what I did. And 1 saw next to`Lhose 5 soldiers a ball of string or rather rope. And I saw 6 him cutting pieces of that rope ans tyinq my hands 7 Lwiee around. There may be pictures somewhere how Lhey tied me up. And he was a hig man. He was fair. I 9 don't know him. He just asked me where I was from. 10 when I told him where I came from, he slapped me, he 11 cursed my balija mother, and he pushed me opposite -- 12 classroom number two. 13 Classroom number two was open, the door was 14 open then, and Lhere was no light on. When I fell, 1 15 teil en a friend of mine. He hasn't come either. They T6 were all tied up in thaL classroom. couldn't say 17 much, just asked him, "What is happening?" He 18 nouLdn'L give me an answer. 1 knew then that the end 19 was approaching. 20 Some 15 or 20 minutes later unLil all these 21 men had come uuL and were tied up, 1 heard the order, 22 somebody yelling, "Send me Lendoer said, "Get ouL, Len of 24 And I was near the door, and as a group we Rh ran out with our hands tied down the steps. And when I Friday, 14 Ap1?il20(N) Cm No. (Open Scuixm) Pm 1 started down the steps, I saw in that corridor or I 2 could feel under my bare feet that there was blood. 3 And in the hallway at the bottom of the steps, three to 4 four men lying dead in the hallway of the school. 5 In front of the school there was a truck. Tt 5 was already night-time, don': know what time it was, 7 but I think it was after midnight. And the truck was standing there, the back part facinq the entrance to 9 the school. The back side was down. EU And so with our hands tied, harefooted, naked 11 to the waist had to climb into the truck which was 12 covered with a canvas. What type of truck it was, I 13 dun't know, whether it was a military or a civilian 14 vehicle oecause it was dark. 15 The truck was filled quickly, they would say, 16 "Ten of you," then, of you." Then this one 17 down there would call to the one upstairs. And when we 18 climbed into the truck, it was packed tull. The order 19 was that we shouid sit down. We cou1dn't sit down when 20 it was packed. 21 Aqain, they cursed us, our ba ija mothers. 22 They said, "Haris Siladzic and Aljja would receive you 23 dead and wounded." They were probably implying some 24 sort ef exchanqe. 25 And again, a burst of fire at nur feet and Fridw. *4 April zum Cm wu. wimm; wanna; (ops. samm) 297* Examinnd by Mr. Hannan 1 then this relative, Kadrija Heoirovic, said to me. 2 "T've been hit." And only know that he dropped down 3 amongst us. I know nothing more about him. And then 4 the truck started. It was dark. 5 Q. Let me interrupt you before we go on to the 5 next part of your testimony. MR. HARMUN: If I could show the witness five 8 exhibits; 21/l, 21/3, 21/4, and 21/7. 9 Q. I'm going to show you a series of pictures 1U that you've seen before in my office. Let me ask you ll this, Witness P, did you return to the location of that 12 school with investigators from the Office of the 13 Prosecutor? 14 A- Yes- 15 Q- And you identified that school as being the 16 location where you were detained; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. T'm going to show you some pictures, a series 19 ot pictures starting with 21fi. T'm going to ask you 20 if you can identify the buildings that are in that 2l particular exhibit. Can you identify the buildings in 22 that exhibit? 23 First of all, do you see a large parking lot 24 on the left side of the image? Now, your pointer is on 25 a building. Can you identify that particular Friday. I4 Avril 2000 cm sq. IT-as-as-T Wimm: {epa sammy Pm 2972 Examined by Mr. Ilamwn building? if not we'lj go to Lhe next exhibit. 2 MR. HARMON: LeL's go to Prosecutor's Exhibit 3 21/3, please. 4 A. really Can't find my way, somehow. 5 Q. All right. go Lo the next exhibit. 6 MR. HARMON: Can we go to 21/3, please. 7 Q. Now, does this clarify the locaLion for you? A. This is the p1ayground. Yes. The school, 9 the enLrancc to the school. And this is the route we 10 Look. 11 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for Lhe record, 12 there is a flat area where the wiLness new has his 13 poinLer which is the playqround. 14 A. Tnat is where the trucks were [indicates]. 15 MR. HARMON: The buildinq in front of a 16 playqruund is the school where he was detained. 17 A. This is the entrance [indicates]. 18 HR. HARMON: Can we now turn Lo Drosecut0r's 19 ExhiblL 21/4. 20 Q. Do you recoqnise this picture? 21 A. Yes. P2 Q. What is it? 23 A. The steps that i mentioned going down the 24 five or six that lead to the entrance to the school. 25 Q. All right. Fridny. I4 April 2000 cm Nu. wines; (cpm sammy Examined by Mr. Harmon 1 A. The double door that menLi?ncd a moment 2 age. 3 MR. HARMON: The pointed to the 4 double donrs to Lhe right side of the buildinq. Thank 5 you. Could we turn to Elfb, please. 6 Q. Do you recognise this picture, Witness 7 A. Yes. The steps, as I said, the Iandinq and 8 then the -- go u?sLairs and the iron rails. This is 9 where we were; onc, two, three. 10 Q. Let me turn to the last picture in 11 Prosecutnr's ExhibiL 21identify Lhis location? 13 A. Yes. As said, the vinyl tilcs that I 14 mcntioned that are glued on, and to the left, a 15 blackboard. This is Lhe classroom, the entrance 16 [indioaLes], and in the door, the chimney snack for a 17 stove with a hole in it. 18 Q. This is Lhe location where you were detained 19 prior Lo being taken out and put hack on Lhe Lruck? 2C A. Yes, yes. I was here somewhere near 21 blackboard Iindicates]. Later, I movcd closer to the 22 window. You oau'L see window in this picture. Sc 23 was somewhere findicatesl. 24 MR. WARMON: When the wiLness indicates 25 "here", he's referrinq LO a place directly under the Friday_ I4 April 2000 Case No l'l'--98-33-T waves; (opal Scuiun) P?z= 2974 Exlmimd by Mr. Hammn 1 blackboard. Thank you very much, Mr. Usher. 2 Q. Now, we'll continue with your testimony, 3 Witness P. You said you and other men had boarded a 4 truck. Can you recall approximately how many men were in your truck? You said it was packed? 5 A. After all, it was night-time, nor could 7 anyone count, ao I don't know the figure. But imagine, 1UU or so men at least. Tt was a big truck 1 think. 9 Q. Would you continue, please, with your 10 testimony, describing the events once the truck started 11 on its next leg of the journey. 12 A. We had climbed onto the truck after the 13 shooting, and the truek's engine started. As soon as 14 it started moving from the school, i saw immediately 15 that it was a bumpy road, and we were swaying left and 16 right and hitting each other because our hands were 17 tied. We were standing up. 18 The truck didn't travel [or long, maybe lh or 19 15 minutes. I don't know what time it was. know it 20 was after midnight. And then suddenly the truck 21 stopped somewhere. At first glarce, 1 could just see 22 that there was a little light, that there was some sort 23 of light reaching us. 24 And so as soon as we stopped there, we heard 25 heavy bursts of fire, noise, yells. 1 just heard Friduy. Anil 2000 cm Nu. lwu-J3-?l? waulas; {open sammy P?s= 2975 by Mr. Harmon 1 someone say, "Come down Len. Come on five." And we 2 had Lo run off the truck. How got off, I don't know 3 myself. Whether there was any assistance, some way Lo 4 get off, but we were jumping off and we were all terrified. 6 Ano when we got there and iL was lighted, 7 saw a very big field of men lying dead who had previously been killed. They were all facing -- their 9 faces were on the ground and they were all Lied up. So 1C I and this group of mine were told LU form a new row, ll somebody was giving us the command, the orders. 12 And so we went to the area where we were shot 13 at with our hands tied and haretooted. I saw that the ld path was rocky. I was harefooted, I didn't really know 15 where we were. oidn't know location. 16 So we formed a new row. We went Lo Lhe end. ll And as we were passing at great speed, of course, saw 18 a group te my right of Serb soldiers in uniform, they 19 were. And on their heads, they had something black, 2H whether iL was socks or something so you couldn't see El their faces. They were pointing their guns at us and 1 22 just heard one say, "Fall to the ground." That was Lhe P3 order. 24 After that, really don't know what 25 happened. Behind my backs, I just heard strong nursts Friday. 14 1000 Cac Nu. winmx wamavmpm swim 1 of fire. They were shooting at our baeks, at our 2 reads. From a distance of seven to ten metres, there 3 was this group of soldiers sheeting. 4 fell over bodies of those who had been 5 ewecuted before me. As tell, i had some kind of a 6 premonition that might be saved. I tried to Luek my 7 head between the legs of those who had been killed before me. I don't know, myself, how I managed to do 9 that. I could hear fragments and shrapnel and stones 10 hitting me at my arms and legs, but I rea ised hadn't 11 been wounded yet. 12 But then suddenly, something hot seemed to i3 have been poured on my face. And as my hands were tied 14 behind my hacx, i cou1dn't do anything. kept digging 15 my head down among the dead. How long this lasted, I lh can'L remember. The shooting, the bursts of fire, I 17 was probably unconscious again. 1B And suddenly, I heard some voices, individual T9 shots being fired and they were calling each other by 2U name. One said, "Simo and Dragan, come here." And 21 open brief bursts of fire into their heads. There must 22 have been some men alive and indeed there were. And so 23 they opened fire at them. 24 He came close Lo me. I heard them searching 25 the rows. And Lhen, again, they cursed balija mothers Friday, I4 April 2000 Can: Nn. IT-98-33-T wsu; wma (Open sallam) Puls 2977 Examined by Mr. Harman 1 and one said, "You should see what he looks like. He's 2 like a skeleton." He was probably implyinq the chest 3 of Lhis man. And he said, "If I had seen him in broad 4 daylight 1 would have been afraid of him." 5 And I heard Lhese Serb soldiers exchanqing 6 these words amongsL themselves. I was lying down among 7 the dead with my hands tied behind my hack. I heard the steps. He kicked me here with his hoot, with his 9 leg and he said, "He's dead." 10 After :haL, what happened with me, these were 11 moments after which I suddenly oame to. really l2 didn't know what had happened. I felt was 13 I was lyinq with my race down, with my 16 hands behind my back. And as those men were falling, lh someone had fallen on my neck. And I didn't have any i5 air to breathe. I tried to pull myself out, pull my 17 head 0uL from among the bodies. could hear moans and JU movements, so someone was still alive. And somehow -- 19 as I said, my hands were tied. 1 eouldn't pull free 20 with my fingers. 21 I heard a voice, a man saying the following 22 words, he was whispering, "My friends, let's move 23 down. They'll kill us. I am alive Loo." I plucked up 24 some courage, and I said to him, "If you can, come on, 25 let's try and eseape." T'fi??Y? I4 Ami] 2000 can No. wma; wma:. (opal sam.) 2*-*78 Euinimd by Mr. Harmon 1 And then he somehow managed to get seme five 2 or six metres behind me in another row. he Lricd to 3 reach me. He said, "You have double ropes around your 4 hands and can'L untie you." was whispering to him, 5 "Can untie you?" 6 So he crawled up to me and managed Lo pull 7 his hands free. And he said, "Let's run." You could hear a machine approaching. We could sec the lights of 9 the machine and the sound of this vehicle movirg and he 10 said, "Thcy'll kill us all here." ll And was sLill tied up, he helped me get up 12 and harefooLed, covered in hlood, sLripped to the 13 waist. I still didn't know where he had been wounded. 14 We are treading over Lhose dead bodies. 15 And down there we saw a kind of Lhieket, some 16 woods, and we Lhought we could reach iL Lhough the TT grass was high and they would be able to see us 1B moving. But we had no choice. And only oid we manage 19 the reach the wood when we caught sighL of a big 20 concrete diLch that was leading somewhere. We didn't 21 know Lhe area. 22 At the bo;Lum of the ditch we saw a biL of 23 water. This was water with a muddy sediment. We Lried 24 to reach Lhat water to freshen and untie me. Friday. I4 April 2000 Case Nn. IT-98-33-T wma; wma; {ope swim) Parc 2979 by Mr. Humnuu 1 And as we were going Lowards Lhis ditch to 2 our right, or rather Lo our left, a vchiclo was 3 approaching. We didn't know what kind of vehicle. 4 ]usL concluded that it was a tractor with a traiier. 5 Wo hoard it humping over the macadam and as we reached 6 the ditch, said to this person, Lake Stones. And 7 he found Lwo rocks to try and out the rope. 8 So I leaned my hands against the rock and 9 with those two rocks, he out through the ropes. when 10 he did that, my hands were freed. I saw LhaL I had ll been soraLohed on Lhe head. I was bloody. This other 12 person was wounded more seriously than me. I had this 13 vest on me. took it off and handaged his wound. 14 We found a biL of water so we washed up a 15 liLLle. And we dccidcd wc would stay thorc until dawn 16 camo. This must have been just before dawn, the TT moments hetore night ano day. 1B And behind us, on Lhe field where we had been 19 shot at, wo could hcar strong firo again, noiso and tho 20 noise made by tre machine. We heard the thuds as they 21 were unloading. We oouldn't see from the ditch what 22 was actually happening. 23 As soon as daylight camo, we docidod to leave 24 the area, thougr we didn't know where we were. We 2a passed through a small wood. We found some mushrooms, Friday, I4 April 2000 Nu. IT-98-33-T wines; wamss (cpm sammy M0 1 some leaves, something to eat. 2 And we saw a quard house, a small hut above 3 ns. And in that hut, a machine was parked. Tt was a 4 bulldozer, a large bulldozer, that pushes the material 5 in fren: of it with a shovel and there was a man with a rifle near that hut. whether he had a uniform, I don': I know, but he was probably a guard working for that 8 company loft over from before. 9 So we didn't dare go ahead in that direction, JU so we retraced our steps, went back to the same ditch 11 where we had been in the morning. We continued to hear 12 explosions, the work of the machine, but we didn't know 13 what was happening, so we were hack in the ditch, and 14 to the left of that ditch we saw a Bosniak village that i5 had been burned down. We saw the walls sti11 16 remaining, the chimneys that had been toppled and we 11 cecided we would qo to that villaqe to try and find 1H some fruit aud water to freshen up. We were barefooted 19 and wounded. 2G So after we had crossed the ditch, we came up 21 on a macadam road which was passiuq alonq Lhe Dam. So 22 we crossed that macadam road. I was the first one to 23 cross it, and then motioned to him to cross it as 24 well, because there were no vehicles. And this is Eh where we refreshed ourselves a little hit. We found 14 April 2000 Cu: No. IT-98-33-T wmew; 1- (Open sammy Pm 2981 1 some water and we found some fruit. 2 We must have been some 1h0 or 200 meters from 3 the area where they were loading machines. So we stoed 4 there watchinq. We didn't dare move. We were simply 5 lying in semc brambles. We didn't know what to do. 6 The loader arrived that morning, the one wiLh a bucket, and iL was leading dead bodies onto a tractor. i know that it was a Lraetor. Tt was a large 9 type of Lracter with very biq wheels on the back and 10 smaller wheels on the front, and it had a trailer as ll well. So we could see it scoop up between 10 and 15 12 bodies with its bucket, and Lhen it threw the bodies 13 onLe the tractor. 14 The tracLor that was transporting the bodies 15 would leave in a direction, but we couldn't follow it 16 for very long, because at one point it turned ofi. All 11 we could observe was Lhat it was coming back very 1B soon. The journey would probably last about 20 19 minutes, and after 20 minutes it would come back. So 20 meanwhile the loader wiLh the bucket, with the shovel, 21 would be waiting for the truck to come back. 22 We could hear shots durinq that time. We 23 didn'L knew whether they were still killing people, 24 finishing them off, buL shots could be heard, at any 25 rate. And we could hear them yell aL each other, shout Ffidny. I4 April 2000 Cas: No. IT-98-33-T wma: Wim; 1- {Upcn Snssinnl P?a? 29*2 Hxuminud by Mr. Harmon 1 aL each other. And this is where we stayed throughout 2 day. Tt was 15th of duly. 3 LL was getting dark and we knew thaL we could 4 no longer stay tnere, so wc -- from where we wcre 5 sLanding, we could some water. We didn't know 6 where we were. But once we were in this village, we 7 could a very large lakc. At first I thouqht it was 8 Lhe Drina River, buL latcr on I found out that it was 9 an artificial lake that belonged Lo the aluminum 10 factory, would discharge waters. 11 So there was a ditch leading to the Dam 12 wc had been. i'm not sure that they Lhrew bodies into 13 the lake, but I think that they Lhrew somewhere in 14 the vicinity of the Dam. We couldn't see the tractor. 15 iL would turn otf behind Dam and disappear from 16 sight. But it would como back very soon. 17 So wc spent the whole day waiting, and 18 aL onc point we saw the TV relay at Majevica, which was 19 in the direction of Tuzla. So I told this young man 20 that we should lcave, that we should go in that 21 direcLion, and we actually sLarLed out in the direction 22 of the industrial area of Karakaj. The area was 23 inhabited, so we didn't dare come out. we didn't darc 24 cross Lhe arca. We were just tryinq Lo follow the 25 relay, the TV transmitter. Friday, I4 Alifil 2000 Cas: Nu. IT-98-33-T l-Lxumincd byMr. Harmon Q. Let me interrupt you there for just a moment 2 and let nm ask you just a couple of questions to 3 clarify your testimony. When you looked hack [rc your 4 position away from the killing field, can you estimate 5 how many bodies were laying on that field? . 6 A. Well, 1 didn't make any estimates at the 7 time, but judging by the features of the terrain and 8 the number of people in the school, it must have been 9 hetween 1.500 and 2.000 people. 10 Q. Now, you also said that you observed some 11 heavy construction--type equipment. One was a bulldozer 12 with a scoop. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Are you familiar with construction equipment? 15 A. Yes, very much so. I knew these types of 16 construction machines. I had worked with them. There 17 was a bulldozer with "Caterpillar" which had a kind of 18 blade at the front. Tt was not moving, that machine, 19 the bulldozer, whereas a loader that was standing next 20 to the bodies was. And there was a third machine, a 21 tractor which had a trailer and which transported the 22 bodies. 23 G. Can you identify more specifically the 24 bulldozer with the scoop, the type of vehicle that was? 25 A. Well, there are several types: number H, 9, Friday. 14 April 2000 Cu: Nu. IT-98-33-T Witness: Wimcss (Open Sasaki!} - PUB: Hxaminvd by Mr. 7. I believe it was Lhe type number 7, wiLh 2 Caterpillar, wiLh tracks. As regards the leader, this 3 type of machine, I believe iL was the ULT machine. 1 4 used Lo work with the same type of machines. And Lhey 5 were produced - Lhey were manufactured in Kragujevac 6 before the war. Now they're imporLinq them. They are ot various types: THU and ZOO. I believe that that one was ULT 160. It was orange in colour and iL had a 9 scoop in front of it. 10 Q. Now, you also were Laken to the location nr ll the killing field with investigators from the Office of 12 the Prosecutor and confirmed that heing the location 13 where you and others had been taken [or the execution; ld is Lhat correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. ;eL me show you four exhibiLs and ask you if ET you can confirm that the imaqes depict the location -- 18 A. I'm sorry. There's one thing that Torgot 19 to mention. when we got out, when we reached Lhe 20 viILage, from my vantage point 1 could see the Dam and 21 1 could see two very hiqh pillars with floodlights 22 which were on during the night. They were Lhrowinq 23 light onto Lhe area, onto the plateau where we had been ZA shoL aL. 25 Q. Thank you for Lhat addition. I'm going tn Friday. 14 April Casa Nu. wamas; wma; {cpm Session) pus 2985 Examinnd by Mr. llaminn 1 show you four exhibits, and what I'd Jlke you Lo do is 2 confirm whether this is the location where the 3 executions Look placc. 4 MR. HARMON: If 1 oolld start first of all, 5 Mr. Usher, with a panorama, which is ProsecuLor's 6 Exhibit 22/3, and if that could be shown Lo witness first and Lhon placed on the ELMO. A. This is easier for me, this one. This is the 9 road. 10 Q. You to place that on the ELMO so -- now, 11 using pointer, could you EusL -- first of all, is 12 this the location where Lhe killings took place, 13 Witness 14 A. Ycs. Yes, it is. So Lhis is road 15 [indicates] and this is where ditch was, the Dam 16 [indicates;. This is a kind of protection wall 11 [indiuaLes]. And this is the location. 18 Q. Would you point Lo the actual location where 19 the killings took place in this particular exhibit, 20 which is 22/3. 21 A. [Indicates} 22 MR. HARMUN: Indicating, for the record, an 23 area Lhat is bclow the number 100 and to the riqht of 24 Lhe aroa 50, and further to the riqht, beyond 25 actual rectang e. Friday. I4 April 2000 Cas: Nu. mm) Examined by Mr. Hurmun 1 A. know this pile of rocks in the shape of a 2 pyramid- This is where I was that night. And later 3 on, when we came with the investigators, I saw it 4 again. This js the pile of rocks [indicates]. And 5 this is the area where we were [indicates]. And it was 6 from there that we went down into the ditch. MR. HARMON: There is a pile oF rocks 8 indicated -- or shown on the diagram -- 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. HARMON: to the right of the large red 11 rectangle -- 12 Q. Mr. Witness 13 A- And this is the wall [indicates]. 14 G. I need to describe where you're pointing, so 15 if you would just remain silent while have an lh opportunity Lo describe the area. Then if you have 17 additional comments, I'll permit you to make them. 18 MR. HARMON: The witness pointed tc a pile of 19 rocks which is located to the right of the red 20 rectangle, and it's eviden: in the upper part of the 21 flat surtace area. 22 Q. Du you have anything else to inform the 23 Judges about this particular exhibit, Witness 24 A. recognise this wall. I remember it very 25 well. It is a kind of support wall made of rocks. I: many. mm Case mn. rr-was-T wiuies {bpm semi) 2987 Examined by Mr. 1 is designed to support the Dam, the embankment. 2 MR. HARMON: Indicating the pile of rocks 3 that's in the lower right-hand corner of that ProsecuLer's Exhibit. New we'll turn te the next Exhibit, 6 Mr. Usher, which is 22/4. 7 Q. And I'm going to ask you, very quickly, is 8 this the cement culvert Lhet you described in your 9 testimony? 10 A. Yes. This is the concrete ditch. This is ll where we climbed down and this is where we took 12 shelter, hid ourselves. 13 Q. What is the building in the upper right-hand 14 corner of Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/4? 15 A. This is the which we sew, and 16 another structure next Le it. The bulldozer was here, l? and these are the pillars where the floodliqhts wcrc. 10 MR. HARMDN: Tndicetinq the bulldozer was l9 between the house and the floedlights, which are 20 indicated with circle on the upper right--hsnd corner 21 or the exhibit. 22 Q. New we will turn Lo the next exhibit very 23 quickly, ls this also a picture of the cement 24 culvert through which you and your companion found Rb shelter? Friday, I4 April 2000 Casa Nu. IT-DS-33-T wma: (open Session) Pam 2988 Examined by Mr. llarmtm A. Yes. 2 O. A11 riqhL. Now if we could turn L0 3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/7. Do you what's 4 depicted in Pr?se?utor's ExhibiL 5 A. Yes, I dn. This is the road, the path 5 leading to the Dam, and this is where we had been sheL 7 at MR. HARMON: Tndieatinq Lhe red oval on the 9 aide of the image. LU O. Now, you said at some point in rime, Witness 11 P, that you left the killing field and you teok shelter 12 in an area near some buildings that were nearby. 13 A. Yes. This would have been here, in this area 14 [indicates]. There was a village there. 1h MR. HARMON: Indieating to the left-hand side 16 ef Lhe read, the perpendicular road LhaL eomes frem the 17 top ef the image down tuward Lhe Dam, te the left or 1B that. 19 Q. Now, Let me -- 20 MR. HARFON: T'm finished w1Lh Lhese exhibits 21 new, Mr. Usher. 2P Q. And W1Lne5s P, thank you very much for 23 idenLi[y1ng them. 24 Lastly, my last question 25 A. Thank you tee. Friday. 14 April 2000 Ousc N0. IT-98-33-T wma: (Open swam) Pre 2**89 1 Q. -- did you and did your companion ultimately 2 arrive on Lhe Bosnian-held territory, 3 Hosniao--Muslim-held terriLory, on the 1Bth of July? 4 A. Yes, in the afternoon of the 18Lh of July. 5 Q. Witness P, I've concluded my examination. 6 Thank you very much. 1 A. Thank you. 8 MR. HARMUN: Mr. President, I've concluded. 9 JUDGE RDDRIGUES: [TnterpreLaLion] Thank you 10 very muoh, Mr. Harmon. think LhaL it would be a good 11 idea Lo have a short break, perhaps a 10-minute break, 12 and later there would be a longer break, around half 13 past 12.00. AL this point we will have a only a 1A 10 minune break. I should like Lo ask the Defence to 15 Lry and ask very direct and precise questions tor the 16 eross-examination. A 10-minute break. 17 Break taken at 11.23 a.m. 1B On resuming eL 11.34 a.m. 19 JUDGE RODR1GUHS: [Interpretatior' Witness P, 20 you're now going LO answer questions that will be puL 21 to you by Mr. Petrusic who is rep1eseuLinq the Defence 22 here. 23 Mr. PeLrusie, you have the floor. 24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good moruinq Rh Your Honours, good mornirg counsel. Ffidny, I4 Ami! 2000 Nu. I'l'-98-33-'1` wium; wanna; 1- (ope. sammy Pm 2*190 1 Cross-examined by Mr.Petrusic: 2 O. Good morninq Witness P. 3 MR. PETRUSIC: [InterpreLaLion] In accordance 4 wiLh your suggestion, Mr. President, I wil1 try and ask 5 my questions in a specific manner. 6 Q. Witness P, on the 11th of July, when you went to Susniari, did you know that the members ef the VRS had confiscated personnel carriers from the Uniteo 9 Nations? 13 A. Yes, I did. I did know. 11 Q. I believe the witness has answered. We do 12 not need any +nr:her clarification in respect of this. 13 So when you started out from towards 14 Konjevic Uolje towards the territory of Tusle, you said 15 Lhat at one point the Serb soldiers mixed with you. 16 A. Yes. Q. The Serb soldiers threw hand grenades which, 1B as far as I understand, contained some poisonous 19 gases. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Could you tell us, briefly, what kind of 22 consequences did those poisonous cases have? 23 A. Well, we became very thirsty and my eyes were 24 smarting and Lhere were tears in our eyes. 25 Q. The fact that the Serb soldiers mixed wiLh Fridny. 14 Ami 1000 Cm Nu. xt-sms-T \Nmmu:VWmewP$3 nSuduu Crass-mraminnd by Mr. Pctrusis: 1 you and that those grenades were thrown, can we 2 therefore conclude that the Serb soldiers were at the 3 same territory the same night? 4 A. No, when they threw grenades it was on the 5 first night it was only on the following day that the 6 Serb soldiers mixed with the Bosnian soldiers and civilians who remained in the forest. 8 Q. Tt was on the 12th of July thenthe 13th. The ambush was on 10 the 12;h of July in the evening and -- 11 Q. I apologise. were there any opposing views 12 amongst the representatives of the Muslim population as 13 regards the situation in whinn you had found 14 yourselves, whether you should surrender or continue 15 with the break-through? 16 A. Could you please repeat your question? I 1T don't guitc understand what you mean by "opposing 18 views". 19 Q. Well, were there any different views as to what should be done? 21 A. You mean amongst the Bosnian population? 22 Q. Yes. P3 A. well, yes, people were trying to reach the 24 right decision. Some people wanted to surrender, some 25 were in favour of continuing. Fridvy. I4 Ann zmu cu Nu. IT-on-sa-T wamm; 1* t0p?? Session} Pm 2992 L,Tusw-cauuninad by Mr Patrusic 1 Q. In vicw of that, were there any conflicts? 2 A. Wall, most probably Lhara conflicts 3 somowhora. 4 Q. At Kasaba at the football field, Ganaral Mladlu spokc to you? 6 A. Yes. Q. Did General Mladic mention at that point Lhat the units with dogs were at that Iooation? 9 A. Yos, ha did. He said LhaL Lharc wcro soma 10 spcoial units there with doqs and dog handlers, and 11 that every inch of forest would be covered by Lham 12 and nobody would be able to oross tha asphalt road. 13 Q. After that, you laft for Kravica by trucks? 14 A. Yes. lb Q. Tha Serb soldiers called out people from 15 Gloqova, Kravioa? 17 A. Not from Kravioa. 18 Q. No, from Kamonica, I'm sorry, Oamao? 19 A- Yoo. 20 G. And Zeoanako? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And thoso people would actually come out? 23 A. Well, yes, if they were from those villaqas. 24 But people oidn't dare speak up. But thosc who did 2n were taken out. Friday. Avril 2000 case No. Witness: Witness {Open Snssinn) Page 1993 Cross-cxnmincd by Mr. Pctrusic 1 Q. Do you know what was the reason for Lhat, why 2 did they call people from those specific villages? 3 A. I don't know. Maybe they were their 4 neighbours, they were perhaps looking for their 5 neighbours, people from their area. I don': know. Q. Did they mention Kravica, did Lhey look for 7 people from Kravica? A. No, not from Kravica. It wou1dn't have been 9 possiole. i don'L understand what you mean. 1U Q. While they were calling people out, while ll they were looking for specific people, people from 12 specific villages, did they also mention Kravica? And 13 my guesLien to you is: Did they ask who had 14 participated in the take--over in Kraviea? 15 A. dicn't hear LhaL. 16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 17 Mr. President, I should like to show Lhe witness, very 18 briefly again, the statemenL Lhat he gave to the 19 investigators of the Tribunal on the ldth, the 15Lh, 20 Lhe 16Lh of August of 1995. 21 TEE REGISTRAR [TnterpreLaLion] Exhibit 22 D-1B. 23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 24 G. On page five ot the statement given on the 25 of August, 1995, second passage, the second Friday. Anril 2000 cu: Nu. rms-za-T Wilmss: Witness [Open Session) 2994 Cl'?il?cXImin?d by Mr. Pelrusic I 1 passage from the bottom, there is a portion of 2 hiqhlighted text. The last sentence of the Passage 3 reads as toilows, "The Serbs asked who had participated 4 in the take over of Kravica when it fell under BH 5 control." 6 A. don't remember. don't know how this was 7 translated. Q. You signed this statement. Did you sign this 9 statement? 10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I interrupt? 11 0-18 is a rcdacted statement so the signature of this 12 witness has been removed. We're prepared to stipulate 13 that the witness did, in fact, sign this statement. lj JUDGE RODRIGUES: [interpretation] Thank you 15 very much for your remark, Mr. Harmon. T, myself, have 16 realised that the witness is having some difficulties 17 as to his signature. *8 Petrusic, could you ask your question in 19 a different way? Could you ask him whether he signed 20 the statement, not whether he can see the signature on 21 the statement. 22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 23 Q. Witness P, your signature has been redaeted 24 from the statement so we cannot see it. So my question 25 to you is whether this is, indeed, your statement, the Friday. I4 April 20w rm kn. Wimcxs (Open ??:siun) Pagc 2995 Cross-cxuminad by Mr. Pdmsin 1 one that you gave to the Tribunal's investigator on the 2 14th, the 15th and the 16th of August, l99b? 3 A. I believe it is. I cannot tell you the exact 4 date the statement was given but I think this is my 5 statement. 6 Q. When you arrived in the school, the sohool 7 was a two-storey building, was it not? A. Yes. 9 Q. Was only the tirst floor filled with people? 10 A. believe that it was the first floor and the 11 ground floor. This is what could tell judging from 12 the voices of the peopte, believe it was ful]. 13 Q. How many Lruoks arrived in your group? 14 A. said that there had been three trucks. Two Th that were at the football field plus my Lruek. I don't 15 know if there were any truoks later on or before. 17 Q. Let us go back to Kraviea and then 1 will T8 finish with my cross-examination. was there any reason 19 why the Bosnian Serb soldiers would be interested for 20 that plane, in oartioular? 21 A. don't know. 22 MR. PETRUSTC: LTnterpreta;ion] 23 Mr. President, I have no other questions to ask of this 24 witness. 25 Q. Witness P, thank you very much. Friday. I4 Awil 2000 Case Nu. rr-as-ss-*1* Witness: Wimcss (Open Session) Pleb 2996 by 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 2 Mr. Petrusio, thank you very much. 3 Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional 4 questions? 5 NR. UARMON: I do not, Mr. President. Thank 6 you. 7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [InterpreLation1 Thank you, 8 Mr. Harmon. 9 Judge Riad. IO JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I 11 have a few questions. 12 Good morning, Witness P. 13 A. Good morning. 14 JUDGE RIAD: Let me jusL Lry Lo elarify some 15 points you mentioned from the beginning. You spoke nt 16 the column of almost ten kilometres when you were 1T fleeing away and before you surrendered. And you said 15 zhat one-third had weapons; is that right? One-third 19 of you in the column had weapons. 20 Jid you use these weapons, these weapons? 21 had they been used against the Serbs while you were 22 fleeing? Was there exchange of fire, some kind ot 23 fighting or were you just running away? 24 A. There were no oomhats until Lhe ambush. The E5 people who had weapons were aL Lhe front of the column Friday, I4 April 2000 Case Nu. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open WSU 2997 Qucsticnud by thu Court 1 and I was somewhere in the middle of Lhe column. And 2 know Lhat there had been no fighting before the ambush, 3 but then after had been captured, I don't know whaL 4 happened. JUDGE RIAD: And when you were captured, you 6 were captured because they announced, as you said, they 7 asked you to surrender and that you will be exchanged: is Lhat right, that you will be safe? 9 But in spite of thaL, in spite of their 10 reassurance, some oommiLLed suicide. What promoted 11 this reacLion lf they knew that they would be 12 exchanged? Did the Serbs give Lhem Lhis assurance? 13 A. Well, Lhink Lhat they simply didn't T4 believe. They didn't dare to believe in their 15 guarantees, that is, that they would be exchanged, 16 because they were killing people. They didn't pay any 17 attention Lo Lhe age, regardless of whether child. 19 JUDGE RTAD: So Lhere was killing before that 20 and you could not trust them. That was the tee-ing you 2l had, that already there was no reason there was 22 their precedents ot killing? 23 A. Yes. 24 JUDGE RIAD: And when was that, with your E5 group? Friduy. I4 Ami! 2000 Cm Nu. wimes; waunes (opal sam.) Fw 2998 hy lh: Coun A. Yes. 2 JUDGE READ: But your group had started. 3 There was no killing before that. What gave them this 4 conviction that they would not -- thaL Lhey be killed, beforehand? 6 A. said Lhat there had been an ambush, and a 7 lot of dead bodies were scattered around the torest and people simply couIdn't believe that. They were afraid 9 of ending up in their hands. Thousands of people must 10 have remained in the forest, so they cou1dn't trust 11 them anymore when it comes to the surrender. 12 JUDGFI RTAD: It was the ambush. Before LhaL, 13 was Lhere any media announcing or Lbreatening, in the 14 media anything which gave them this conviction? 15 A. Yes. Throughout the war people were gettirg 16 killed, and there was an order, a com and, that we 17 should go through the woods. Somebody had issued an L8 order to that effect. People didn't dare. I don't 19 know. They just didn't trust them. They went to the Z0 woods. A lot of people got killed in the woods and a 2l lot of people killed themselves in the woods, because 22 they were afraid of ending up in their hands. I 23 JUDGE RTAD: You were living in Srebrenica 24 before Lhe of July? 25 A. Yes. Friday. April 2000 cm Nu. 1T-as-sz-?r wma; 1- [Open susan) P?s= 2999 Questioned by th: Coun JUDGE RIAD: And could you listen, could you 2 hear Serb radio and Serb television? 3 A. No. No. We didn'L have electricity at all. JUDGE RLAD: Now, at a certain stage, and 1 5 follow Lhe question the Defence counsel asked you, 5 Certain people were called because Lhey belonged to 7 certain places. You had people co ing from Osmac, they were asked to come ouL and so on. And as you said, 9 a[Ler Lhat you heard screams and gunfire. At a later 10 stage, the order came by numbers. They would say, 11 "Rring four people now," "Bring ten people now." Also 12 aL Lhis second stage were these ten people or four 13 people, were they more or less coming from a certain 14 place or they would he without disoriminaLiou? lb A. You haven'L understood me, Your Honour. I 16 said LhaL they were taken out individually, one by 17 one. During the night, while I was in tha; Lruok, [ive lU people were taken off my Lruek. I don't know where the 19 Serbs had come from. The trucks had canvases and they EC stood guard around the trucks all the time. They were 21 working in shifts. So there would always be between 1D 22 or 15 Serb soldiers near Lhe Lrucks, and they were 23 Laking people out. And during that night, five people 24 were taken off my truck. 25 JUDGE RTAD: All right. I then, I repeat my Fri??Y. 14 April img Casa Nu. wines; P?s=3000 1 question more precisely. When you were in classroom 2 and classroom 2, you would hear an order, somebody 3 saying, "Send me Len." Would he say: Send me ten from 4 Lhis village or that village? Or he would say: Send 5 me ten just from the whole group, wiLhouL 5 discriminationclassroom number 3. And after 8 my hands had been tied up, was transferred to 9 classroom number P, that is, the nexL-door classroom. 10 And they were no: saying anything to that effect, ll anyLhing involving a village. I could only hear a 12 voice coming from outside the school, or from Lhe 13 entrance would hear words, "Send me Len of them" or 14 "Send me 20 of Lhem." This is while I was already on 15 the truck. 16 JUDGE RIAD: Ten of them, without saying ten TT of which village, or anyplace; ]usL Len? 18 A. Yes. Yes. 19 JUDGE RTAD: Now, when you were asked how 20 many people had been lying in the killing field, you 2l said Lhere would be between 1.500 and 2.000. Was there 22 enough 1ight for you at your escape to see the extent 23 cf the lying bodies, or was it too dark? mean, or 24 what did you base your esLimaLion? 25 A. could make an estimate on the basis of the I4 Avril 2000 cm Nu. wana; rope Swim} Pm 3001 (M?mmuHyumCmm 1 number of people who had been in the school. There 2 were three classrooms on that floor, so there must have 3 heen up to 600 people there. So 1 believe Lhe sanw 4 number of people would have been on the ground floor. 5 And I believe that there were other classrooms as 6 wall. 7 As Lo Lhe area iLse1?, I was able Lo observe 3 it on the next morning, when we came out of the ditch. 9 and also wher we reached the vil age, because we were 1U abeuL 150 or ZOO meLers away from Lhe s?oL. So 1 could 11 see the whole area, and the whole area, the whole 12 location was filled with dead bodies. 13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. 14 A. Thank you Loo, Your Honour. 15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 1h Judge Riad. 17 Judqe Wald. 18 JUDGE WALD: Witness P, you told us in Lhe 19 beginning of your testimony that the reason that the 2D men decided to go or were given orders to go in the 21 woods toward Tuzla rather Lhan Lu Jutouari was because 22 they didn't trust the Serbs not to kill them. They 23 thought they wouldn't get any protection from the UN. 24 When your group surrendered Lo Lhe Serbs, what changed 25 their mind? Why did they feel Lhey would be able to Friduy. I4 April Cass No. wammz {open semi) Parc 3002 by thu Cuun 1 survive if they surrendered to the Serbs, when earlier 2 they thought they wouldn'L survive if they went to 3 HoLoearl? 4 A. It was very simple. The groups had been cut 5 off from the rest of the column, and they had a larqe 6 number of wounded. And Lhe order was Lhat the wounded 7 should be brought down and that we should all come down 8 to the road. A11 the while there was a white personnel 9 carrier travelling alonq Lhe aspha1L road, coming from 10 Lhe direction of Konjevie Polje -- this is what I ll forgot to mention -- moving towards Kravica. And it 12 passed our group and they threw out two bottles of 13 waLer. And 1 Lhink LhaL half of the people surrendered 14 and came out onto the asphalt road because they 1h believed it was a UN personnel carrier. And think 16 Lha; it actually carried Serb soldiers, because Lhey 17 didn't say anything to us: they simply threw out two 18 bottles of water when they passed by us. And again 19 they went back in the direction of Konjevic Polje. 2C JUDGE WALD: You Said you had a larqe qrcup 21 of wounded that you carried down at the time of 22 surrender. Had most of those wounded been wounded in 23 erossfire of an ambush, or had Lhev been wounded just 24 by the shelling from the Serbs? I mean, had Lhev been 2h wourded it an actual crossfire between the armed people Fridw. I4 Avril 2000 Cm Nu. Witness: Wim?sP(Dp?n Session] Pag:3003 Qw?muwdby?mCu?t 1 in the column and the Serbs, or just as they were 2 trying to walk along and just got shelled? 3 A. Part of the group was exposed to a shelling 4 and part of the qroup -- people from Lhe group were 5 wounded in the ambush that took place on that night. 6 JUDGE WALD: During che ambush there was 7 orossfire, right, beLween Lhe Muslims who were armed in 8 the column and the Serbian soldiers. Okay. 9 Now, you mentioned about this incident with TC the poisonous gas that made the throat get thirsty and 11 Lhe eyes sLing. Are you familiar wiLh whaL's known as 12 tear gas? I mean, sometimes police use it to break up 13 crowds in demonstrations. Tt brings Tears to your 14 eyes, but iL doesn'L have -- so far as we know, i: 15 doesn't immediately blind anybody or anything like 16 that. Was this something like tear gas, or was it 17 anyLhinq you were fandliar with before? 18 A. I couldn't tell you, Your Honour. I don'L 19 know. just heard someone saying at one point that 20 poisonous gases had been thrown at us. wasn't very 21 familiar with it. And I Lried proLecL myself, to 22 protect my face, and I was looking for a shelLer. 23 JUDGE WALD: Did this happen only once? Was 24 this just one incidenL of poisonous gas or did it Rb happen other times, or did you hear other people say A?ri12000 Can: Ns. IT-98-33-T {opal sammy Page 3004 Quusliuuad by the Coun 1 that it happened to them, even if you weren't thare? 2 A. heard it from a number of people who were 3 zhere, who were ambushed. I don'r know what happened 4 elsewhere or later on. I'm referring to the ambush that took plaue on the niqht between the 12th and the 6 13th of July. The ambush was at the location called 7 Kamenicko, called Rrdo. JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: You 9 said that from the burnt-out Bosniak village you were 10 able to see this artificial lake near the killing ll tields, the one where the aluminum company dumped its 12 refuse. Could you estimate the time it would take to 13 drive from the killing fields to that lake? What would ld you guess or think it would take? How long to make the 15 drive from the killinq fields to that lake? 16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness 9, l? just a second. I'm sorry to interrupt. 18 Mr. Visnjie, you were about to say something, 19 probably in relation to "Tihomir Blaskie." I myself 20 didn't get that as a translation or interpretation. 21 were you qoinq to point to that? 22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 23 Mr. President, you're right. 24 JUDGE ROURLGUES: [interpretation] Well, 25 didn't hear it in the French interpretation, but on the Friday. |4N>ri| 2000 Can: Nn. Witneusz Witness 1* (Open Session] Page 3005 Quesliuncd by the Cnun 1 transcript I can see that there is a kind of poisonous 2 gas that is called Tihomir Blaskic, apparenLiy. 3 Judge Wald, maybe you will have to repeat 4 your question so that we can hear the answer.' Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. 6 JUDGE WALD: i'm sorry. i don'L know whaL -- 7 on my transcript, I don't see what question JUDGE RODRTGUES: |Tnterpretation| T'm afraid 9 iL has already disappeared from Lhe screen. 1 don'L 10 know whether it has something to do with the method 11 used hy the court reporters. Maybe we should pay 12 aLLen;ion Lo Lhis aspect, we should be mindful of this 13 particular feature of the transeripL. IL had someLhinq 14 to do with a question that you asked of the witness 15 reqardinq Lear qas which the police sometimes uses and 16 the poisonous gas LhaL Lhe wLLness was Lrying to 11 describe. 18 Mr. Harmon, you might heip us, perhaps. 19 MR. HARMON: I saw Lhe name "Tihomir Blaskic" 20 and thought it was the wrong easepoinL in the transcript at 20.02.12 and it was in 22 response this witness gave an answer, and what 1 23 wrote down was: just heard at one point LhaL 24 poisonous gases Tihomir Rlaskic and it went on. 25 Se that's Lhe poinL LhaL Mr. Visnjic stood up. Friday. 14 Ami! 2000 me No. rr-as-33.1 1 JUDGE WALU: Shall we ask the witness -- let 2 me ask the question to the witness aqain, and Lhe 3 question was that whether the witness had any idea 4 whether this poisonous gas was Zike the tear gas. 5 A. I Lhink i; was sumeLhinq like that, heeause 6 the rumour spread among the people that something had 7 been Lhrown. JUDGE WALD: All riqhL. We'll take that as 9 your answer to the question. Now, I think we're sLill 10 in Lhe middle of the last -- well, okay. 11 JUDGE ROUBIGUES: [lnterpretationl 12 Mr. Visnjic. 13 MR. VISNJIC: [Tnterpretation] Mr. President, 14 I think it would be sufficient to hear the transcript. ln The witness didn't mention Tihomir Blaskiu. He used a 16 word in Serho--Croatian that sounded like this. 17 JUDGE WALD: Ukay. That's helpful to know 1U that. But we have his answer later on Lo Lhe straight 19 question anyway. 20 So jusL Lo answer my last question which I 2' had asked you about, how long you would have estimated 22 iL Look to drive from the killing field to the Dam, Lhe 23 lake? 24 A. We could only see from Lhe village where our 25 men were. We could see that lake and the field where Friday. 1M1?ri12?0? cm Nu. IT-98-33-T wiumsv; Witness (Open Session] Page 3007 Qucsdoncd by mc Court 1 we were executed. We eouldn'L qeL close. 1L is behind 2 the hill, around a bend. You have an access road to the Dam so we oonIdn't really see the access to that 4 lake. -n my esLimaLe, it would take lb or 20 minutes 5 to get there and back. 5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. 7 JUDGE [interpretation} Thank you, 8 Judge Wald. I think the question of Lransuript will be 9 resolved as usual. The court reporters have heard Lhe 10 answer and will make the necessary corrections so there 11 is no point in wasting too mueh Lime. But i: nas heen E2 registered in the transcript that there was a problem. 13 WiLness P, also have some questions for 14 you. The 13th of July, the Call for surrender by Serb lb soldiers. In that call, they mentioned Geneva 15 Conventions [Realtime transcript read in error "general 17 Eva"] could you remind is in whaL context they 1H mentioned the Geneva Conventions? 19 A. Lhink tha: they were guaranteeing the 20 safety of our lives and an exehanqe. That was at least 21 my opinion beoause I had a wounded relative, and when 22 Lhey menLioned the Geneva Conventions that nobody could 23 be hurt, that we would all be exchanged. So my opinion 24 was that they would guarantee our safety, our transter 25 Lo [ree territory either by exchange with their Friday, I4 April 2000 Cue Nu. Wim -- s: Witness (Open Session] Page 3008 LmuwmuHw?eCmm 1 vehiules or wiLh Lhe help ot UNPROFOR. 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [interpretationl So we have 3 another type of convention. The Geneva Conventions, 4 think all these things have to be reviewed. We are 5 Lalkinq abouL Lhe Geneva Conventions and not the 6 "general Eva eonventions". I Another question, did they expressly use the words Geneva Conventions? 9 A. Yes, 1 personally heard tnem over the loud 10 speakers saying that we would all be exchanged in 11 aecoroance with the Geneva Conventions. 12 JLUGE RUURIGUES: [Interpretation] My second 13 question. Nova Kasaba, the ?ooLball pitch, the whole T4 pitch was covered. My question, were the people 15 sitting or standing or both? 15 A. when 1 arrived, everybody was sitting down. 17 My group and those who eame after me, we all sat down 1B on the grass field of the pitch. 19 JUDGE RUDRIGUES: [interpretationl General 2C Mladie arrived. Did he co alone or in the company of 21 others? 22 A. 1 iust saw the APC ooming and I saw eertain 23 soldiers who were sLandinq riqhL next to the APC. At 24 that moment, I didn't see whether anyone else came out 25 wiLh him, I don't remember. Of course there were ohe Friday, 14 Apn12000 Cm Nn. Whmae Whm?sFKh?Hkukm] Quauinnad hy th: Court soldiers next to him, but I do know LhaL he, himself, 2 and alone spoke to the people there. 3 JUDGE ROURLGUES: [interpretation} When you 4 left the football pitch, you were boarded on trucks. 5 Those trucks, were they already there when you arrived 6 or did Lhey eeme after you? A. I didn't see Lhem having come there before us because trucks were passing by all the Lime. They were 9 driving women and ehildren from Potocari so trucks and 10 buses were passing by. Some were going towards ll Konjevic Folje, and the others were passing towards 12 Kasaba. So i don't know whether those trucks had come 13 there from Kasaha and were waiting for us or did they ld come from some other place specially. I just know that 15 Lhey were empty when we came off the field and started 15 boarding Lhem. l? JUDGE RUDRIGUES: [lnLerpretation| While you 18 were at the Football pitch, did you see buses passing 19 in Lhe direction of Dratunac--Konjevie Polje wiLh Lhe 20 women and other people? 21 A. Yes, yes, we did see Lruoks and buses passing 22 from Konievio Polie towards Kasaba. And in Lhe P3 opposite direction, Lhere were empty buses going 24 towards Konjevic Polje probably Lo Potoeari again to 25 ?eLoh some more women and children. Friday, I4 April 2000 Page Nu. Witness; Wimcss {Opcn Sassiam) Peg: 3010 Quminned by the Umm 1 JUDGE RODRZGUES: [Interpretation] Witness P, 2 have no 'urther questions. You have answered a large 3 number of questions put to you. 4 Is there s0meLh1nq LhaL you would like to say and rhat you didn't have an opportunity to say? 6 A. First or all, should like to thank the 7 International Community and Lhis Tribunal that the truth, at least about Srebrenica, should be proven and 9 LhaL some kind or justice is served although that is 10 difficult to do and LhaL everybody should be punished ll For this preconceived genocide in Srebrenica. 12 Let us take into account merely the fact that 13 each family in Srebrenica has lost two or more family 14 members. I lost 20 family members. My brother, their 15 wives, aunts, cousins and so on. 16 So 1 wish once again to thank the ll Tnternational Community and, if it can, to resolve this 15 problem of genocide and for all the perpeLraLors Lo be 19 punished. RU JUDGE RODRIGUES: [-nterpretation| Thank you 21 very much, Witness P, for coming. 22 You have many years before you to live. I 23 think you have a very good reason to live, and that is 24 through your actions and words, you should contribute 25 Lo a world avoiding a catastrophe of this kind, and I Friday. I4 Anil 1000 cm Nu. Wiuuss; Wiun (Open Session) Pug: 301 I Qm?mm bym?Omn 1 say that regardless of who is responsible. 2 whoever committed these acts regardless of 3 the ethnic group Lhey may belong to is horrific for all 4 human beings and the human raee. 5 Witness, don't move for the moment. 1 Lhink 6 that we have some exhibits to deal with. We have 7 Defence exhibit D-18. Mr. Harmon, I think you don'L have any 9 exhibits Lc Lender now. 1U MR. HARMON: I dcn't have any exhibits. ll JUDGE RODRIGUES: [InterpreLaLion] 12 Mr. Petrusie, Lhen. 13 MR. PETRUSIC: [InLerpretation] 14 Mr. President, the Defence would like Lo Lender into 15 evidence Exhibit D-1H, but it seems to me LheL Lhe -- 16 some rcdaetions need Lo be made in the Serbian version 17 which the witness has, but the English version has 18 already been redacted to remove all names LhaL might 19 reveal the identity of Lhe witness or other protected 20 persons. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [InterpreLaLion] Thank you, 22 Mr. Petrusie. 23 Mr. Harmon. 24 MR. HARMON: I only have a couple comments 25 about this exhibiL, but need to go into private Friday. 14 April 2000 Cm Nn. rr-csrsir Witness: Witness [Privnu: Session) Pg: 30IZ Quminnad Coun 1 session te do so. It will only Lake a couple of 2 rulnutze . 3 JUDGE ROURLGUES: [Tnterpretsti0n] Mr. Dubuisscn, shall we qc 1nLu pcivate session now, 5 please. 6 Please be seated, Mr. Petrusic. 7 [Private Session] [redected) 9 (redaeted) 10 ircdactcdi 11 (redacted) 12 (redauLed) 13 14 [xedacted) 15 lxedactedl 16 [:edacLed) ZT (redacted) 18 (redacLed} 19 (xcdacted} 20 (xedactcd) 21 [redected] 22 (rcda?Led) 23 (tedactedi 24 (redacted) 25 (redacLed) Friday. April 2000 Cas: Na massa-?1? Witness: Witness (Private Session] pag, gg]; Qu?Huwdby?nCunt 1 [:eduuLud) 2 3 {redactad) 4 {:eda?Lud) 5 6 (redacted) 7 {:udauLad) ircdactcd) 9 {rndacted) 10 (:udauLed} 11 ixcdactcd} 12 (radactedl 13 (Ledauted) 14 fxcdactad) 1h {redacted) 16 (xudacted} 17 1H (radacted) 19 [:edauLad) 20 (xcdactad) 21 [redactedi 22 [:edacLed) 23 {xedactcd) 24 [redactad) 25 14 2111111 cm mn. 11?-on-as-T Witness: Witness (Open Session] Page 3014 1 [redacted) 2 (rcdacted) 3 (redacted) 4 [Open session] 5 JUDGE ROURIGUES: [interpretationopen session now. 7 think, Mr. Harmon, that it would be bcttor 8 to have the break, which we had planned berore, to have 9 it now, give tho opportunity to Witness Lu leave, and 10 when the Chamner comes back, the other witness will bc 11 in the cvurLrcom. 12 Will ho have same protective measures as 13 this one, Mr. Harmon? 14 MR. HARMON: He will. 15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [InLerpreLaticn] Very well. 16 Witness P, good-bye. We wish you a safo journey home. 17 We're quinq Lo have a half hour hreak now and we will 18 resume work by hearinq the nexL witness. 19 A. Thank you too, Your Honours. 20 [The witness withdrew] 21 Recess taken at 12.20 p.m. 22 On resuming at 12.56 p.m. 23 [The witness entered court] 24 JUDGE HODRLGUES: [Interpretation] Good Eh afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Gan you hear Wider. I4 Avril 2000 can Nu.