Witness N Testimony

Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2693 Examined by Mr. McCloskey 1 wednesday, 12th April 2000 2 [Open session] 3 [The witness entered court] 4 [The accused entered court] 5 Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 7 morning, ladies and gentlemen. Are the interpreters here? Yes. I am glad that you are still well and 9 kicking. Good morning to the Prosecution and the 10 Defence, Mr. Krstic, the Court reporters, and the 11 witness, who is here too. Good morning. Have you had 12 a good rest, Witness? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. Good morning. 14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And are you 15 feeling well? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're 18 going to resume our hearing with your testimony, and it 19 is Mr. McCloskey who is going to continue with the 20 questions. You have the floor, sir. 21 MR. Thank you, Mr. President. 22 WITNESS: WITNESS [Resumed] 23 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Cont'd] 24 Q. Witness L, yesterday we left off where you 25 came to the execution area with a small group of fellow Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T 2694 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Pag Examined by Mr. McCloskey Muslim men and were shot down and you were lying in the 2 field listening to things. Can you tell us, as you lay 3 there after your fellows had been shot, what you heard 4 happening around you as the time went on? 5 6 getting together who called each other by A. When the men had been killed, I heard a group name, and 7 they were talking. I then recognised one of them 8 called Gojko Simic, who used to work with me in the 9 same company for at least l5 years. lO Q. Now, let me ask you about thatyou say, excuse me, you heard men speaking. l2 Were those -- how do you know they weren't Muslim men l3 that had survived? l4 A. I know because they called each other by l5 name l6 Q. And what names did you hear them call each l7 other? l8 A. I heard Gojko, Vojo, Risto, and they called l9 another one by nickname, but I haven't remembered that 20 nickname. 2l Q. And how long did you have a chance to hear 22 these men speaking to each other? 23 A. For about five minutes. 24 Q. And were you able to hear the voice of the 25 person -- of the various people clearly? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2695 Examined by Mr. McCloskey A. Yes. I heard this one in particular, the one 2 I knew. He said that he should kiss those of us who 3 had been killed because he thought we were all dead. 4 Q. How was it that you were able to recognise 5 Gojko's voice? 6 A. Because I knew him for many years, and his 7 voice was typical. He didn't have a very clear way of 8 expressing himself. There was a lisp in his voice. 9 Q. How did you know him from? lO A. I knew him because we worked in the same ll company and we also come from the same municipality. l2 Q. Do you know where he was from, what village? l3 A. The village of Orahovac, Zvornik l4 municipality, and Grbovci and Orahovac belong to the l5 same local community, I think. l6 Q. Do you know how many years ago you worked l7 with him in the company in Belgrade? I8 A. I think from l977 until l992. l9 Q. What was your connection with him at the 20 company? Were you equal workers or what? 2l A. We were both of the same occupation. We 22 never argued. We were always on good terms with one 23 another. 24 Q. And were you friends? Did you see each other 25 socially? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2696 Examined by Mr. McCloskey A. We did. We were acquaintances at work, but 2 we never visited one another, because we lived quite a 3 way away from one another. 4 Q. When was the last time you had actually seen 5 him before the war? 6 A. In l992, on the 3rd of April, when I left 7 Belgrade. 8 Q. Could you describe Gojko Simic for us? What 9 did he look like? lO A. Gojko Simic was rather like me by height, ll perhaps a little lower. He had more hair than me. He l2 had two golden teeth. He was fair. l3 MR. Can we show the witness I4 Exhibit And could we put it on the ELMO so we can l5 point it out? I6 THE REGISTRAR: It is a protected witness, so l7 there could be a problem if you place the photograph on l8 the ELMO. l9 MR. The people in the photographs 20 are not protected, but thank you for your -- 2l Q. All right. And let me ask you the question. 22 Can you -- I've shown you this photograph within the 23 last day or two and asked you to point out Gojko 24 Simic. Were you able to do that when I asked you to do 25 it? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2697 Examined by Mr. McCloskey A. Yes. 2 Q. Again, could you point out the person that 3 you recognise as Gojko Simic? 4 A. [Indicates] 5 Q. Okay. Thank you. 6 MR. MCCLOSKEY: For the record, that was the 7 middle person in the bottom row. Thank you. 8 Q. And prior to hearing the soldiers speaking, 9 referring to themselves -- or referring to each other lO as Gojko, Vojo, and Risto, did you hear the sounds of ll any equipment or anything besides the trucks that were l2 dropping off victims? l3 A. Yes. To the left there was a dredger, we l4 used to call it, excavating machine, that was digging a l5 hole. l6 Q. Okay. Now, as you're listening to Gojko and l7 the others talk, could you get an idea of how many were l8 in the group? l9 A. According to my judgement, because three of 20 them were left behind when they went off to another 2l place to kill some more, there were several of them. 22 Q. Can you tell us what else you heard this 23 small group of soldiers talking about as you were lying 24 nearby? 25 A. When they got together, close to this Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T 2698 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Pag Examined by Mr. McCloskey I earth-moving machine, all of them wanted to go to the 2 meadow to kill people. That is what they said. Then 3 the person driving the machine said, "If you turn off 4 the machine, I will go with you. I don't want to go on 5 working." And then Gojko Simic said, "Collect your 6 ammunition and let's go to the meadow to kill the men," 7 the meadow from which the hay had been collected. When 8 he left, three Serb soldiers stayed behind. 9 Q. Now, were you able to see any of this, or IO were you just hearing this? II A. I could only discern them in the dark. I I2 couldn't really see them, it was dark. I3 Q. I4 voice you I5 A. I6 cent sure I7 Q. I8 heard who I9 soldiersthere any doubt in your mind that the heard was that of Gojko Simic? There is no doubt in my mind. I am IOO per Could you tell from the discussions that you was in charge of this small group of According to what he said, the order was to collect the ammunition and to go to the meadow. So judging by that, I conclude that he was the leader. That Gojko Simic was the leader? Yes, yes. Now, I want to direct to you a time that you Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2699 Examined by Mr. McCloskey provided a statement to Jean-Rene Ruez. And I notice 2 in your statement it says that, saw a group of seven 3 or eight men who obviously did the shooting. They were 4 standing not far away from the backhoe and were dressed 5 in camouflage uniforms." 6 Can you tell us, did you actually see them or 7 did you just hear them? Can you explain that? 8 A. I only heard them, I didn't see them. 9 Q. Okay. And then after that there's a lO statement that says, "Among them, I'm absolutely sure ll that I recognised a Serb who used to work with me. His l2 name is Gojko Simic." Now, the term "recognised" -- l3 A. I told you, I recognised him by his voice and l4 by the name I heard called out. l5 Q. What happened after the discussions that the l6 soldiers had among themselves where they talked about l7 going over to another field? What's the next thing you l8 recall happening? l9 A. When they left, the loader came with the 20 lights on. The excavator had the lights on too, but 2l they were turned in the opposite direction. When this 22 loader came, it stopped next to the backhoe and the two 23 of them talked. I didn't hear what they said. Then 24 the person who was probably closest to the loader and 25 who was still alive, he jumped off and ran into the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2700 Examined by Mr. Mecleekey woods. 2 They shot after him and the person on the 3 loader turned the lights around towards the woods, 4 probably to light him up, and at that moment, I moved. 5 He cried out, "Here's another man who's escaping." I 6 looked around a little bit but they weren't going 7 towards me. 8 So crawling, I reached the embankment next to 9 the rail track. I looked around, no one was following lO me. When I jumped to my feet, I had to run up hill. ll It was like going up to the first floor, but it could l2 have been the embankment along the rail track. l3 I know that they fired some shots, but I I4 didn't feel any bullets close to me, nor was I hit, l5 luckily. I6 I ran across the rails, I fell over the other l7 side, then I got up again. There was a cornfield l8 therecouple of questions if I 20 could. Can you tell me when you were first able to 2l actually see anything? 22 AJ When I took the blindfold off. 23 Q. When was that in relation to the events that 24 you've described? 25 A. It could have been two or three hours after Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2701 Examined by Mr. McCloskey this tragedy. When it was really dark and they had 2 moved away from me, I took off the blindfold and I 3 crawled from under the bodies that were on top of me. 4 Q. And were you able to actually see these 5 machines that you've talked about with their lights on? 6 A. The machine that came with the lights on, it 7 arrived just before I was -- I got up and ran away 8 whereas the excavator was probably there before I had 9 arrived, and its lights were turned in the opposite lO direction so that the back side of the machine was ll facing us. l2 Q. But were you actually able to see those l3 machines without your blindfold on when you crawled out l4 from under the bodies? l5 A. Yes, yes. l6 Q. The excavator you're talking about or l7 backhoe, did that have tracks on it or wheels or what? l8 A. Wheels. l9 Q. Okay. Can you describe it, as best you can, 20 this thing you are calling an excavator? 21 A. You mean the loader? It was yellow; because 22 building machinery in our country were, as a rule, 23 yellow in colour the trademark was KU l5O. 24 Q. Okay. Now you've described something that 25 was called an excavator and you've described something Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2702 Examined by Mr. McCloskey that you called a loader. Those were the two machines 2 that you've talked about; is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So what did the loader look like besides 5 being yellow? 6 A. In front, it had the actual loader to collect 7 the material. 8 Q. That's like a big bucket that can scoop up 9 material and load it in the back of a truck; is that l0 right? ll A. Yes. l2 Q. The excavator, can you describe what the l3 excavator looked like, how it was different from the l4 loader? l5 A. The excavator has a longer fork and it is l6 used for digging big holes in the ground. l7 Q. It has a big, long arm that can bend and has l8 a bucket in the bottom of it and usually digs by l9 pulling it backwards; is that right? 20 AJ Yes. It goes like this and then it turns 2l backwards towards itself again. 22 Q. You had described your narrow escape from 23 this immediate spot. Can you go on and continue to 24 tell us where you went? 25 A. When ran into the corn half way, went Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2703 Examined by Mr. Mecleekey upright and then I fell down to the ground, afraid of 2 rifle fire. So on all fours, I went through the corn 3 and then I arrived in an area where I could hear water, 4 but I couldn't see it. 5 Serb soldiers that were left behind, they 6 fired a few shots into the maize and I heard a few 7 words exchanged. 8 Further down, I only heard the shooting. 9 When silence fell, I started thinking where I should go lO because I didn't know where I was as I was brought ll there blindfolded. l2 I got up and started walking. When I came l3 out of the corn, I was terribly afraid I might come l4 across them somewhere. So I climbed on to the rail l5 track and started walking along it slowly. l6 I reached a railway station. There was an l7 office that was open there. There was nothing inside. l8 So I concluded I was going in the wrong direction. I l9 could see a village down there. Then I went back 20 again. I retraced my steps and I kept thinking where I 2l should go. 22 I came across a road where I saw that other 23 location where men had been executed in the meadow. It 24 seemed to me that one of them showed signs of life, but 25 there was no hope. He was squealing like an animal, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2704 Examined by Mr. McCloskey and he was removed from the others. I still 2 didn't know where I was. So I thought I should go into 3 the woods. 4 Q. Let me ask you some questions, excuse me. 5 Now, when you left that railway station, you 6 started walking back in the original direction had you 7 come from; is that right? 8 A. No, I was going the other way because I know 9 if I went along the rail track to the right, I would be lO going to the same place and if I go left, I would be ll going in the opposite direction. l2 Q. But you were generally heading in a similar l3 direction as to where you came from but not precisely l4 back to where you had been shot at; is that right? l5 A. Yes. Yes, yes. I was going back in the l6 direction from which they had brought us. But if you l7 cross to the other side, if you take the left tracks, l8 you go towards Grbovci, and if you take the right-hand l9 tracks you were going to the opposite direction. 20 Q. Now, when you came back to the area where 2l this man was still dying, was it still dark out? 22 A. It was. It was still dark. 23 Q. Did you see any soldiers or any equipment 24 around this one spot? 25 A. No, I didn't see any equipment. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2705 Examined by Mr. McCloskey Q. Were you able to make out anything in the 2 darkness about how many people were on this field? 3 A. There were a lot of bodies and clothes. 4 There was moonlight so I could see them, but I didn't 5 get closer than 20 metres away so I couldn't tell you 6 how many there were. 7 Q. Could you tell where this field was in 8 relation to the field where you had been shot at and 9 shot down with the others? l0 A. It wasn't very far, maybe l00 or 200 metres ll only. It was on one side of the track. l2 Q. This second site that -- l3 A. There was a stream nearby. I4 Q. So this second site that you saw was on the l5 other side of the railroad tracks from the area that I6 you had been shot down? l7 A. Yes, yes. On the other side, yes. l8 Q. This summer, did you have a chance to go l9 back to this area with Mr. Ruez and the investigative 20 team? 2l A. I did. 22 Q. And the place that -- Mr. Ruez first took you 23 to the school, didn't he? 24 A. Yes, he did. 25 Q. The school that he took you to, did you Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2706 Examined by Mr. McCloskey recognise it? 2 A. I did recognise it. 3 Q. Did you have a chance to go in it, into the 4 gym? 5 A. I entered the gym, yes. 6 Q. Was that the place Mr. Ruez took you, the 7 school in the gym, the same place that the Serb 8 soldiers had taken you back in July of l995? 9 A. Yes, it is the same and the same school. lO Everything was the same. ll Q. Okay. Now, after Mr. Ruez took you to the l2 school, did he take you out to some fields nearby? I3 A. He did. l4 Q. Did you recognise those fields that l5 Mr. Ruez took you to? l6 A. Well, I did, because there's the field and l7 the maize, and the maize was still there. Maybe this l8 autumn somebody cut it, but the old maize is still l9 there. 20 Q. What other distinctive features did you 2l notice this summer when you went back with Mr. Ruez, 22 that you recognised from your experience? 23 A. As I said, my assessment was that there was 24 this slope I had to climb to reach the rail tracks, and 25 I recognised that too. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2707 Examined by Mr. McCloskey Q. Did you see railroad tracks at this site this 2 summer? 3 A. Yes, I did see the railway tracks. 4 Q. And the site where you were shot down, was 5 that closer to the asphalt road or farther away than 6 the other site? 7 A. Further aside from the road, on the other 8 side of the tracks. They were on the other location, 9 on the mown meadow, which was closer to the road. lO Q. And after -- let me take you back now to July ll of l995. It's still dark out. You've just come across l2 this other field of bodies. Were you able to escape l3 into the night and later escape to the free territory? l4 A. No, I didn't escape to the free territory on l5 that night. l6 Q. How many days did it take you wandering l7 through the woods until you were able to escape to the l8 free territory? l9 A. I could have reached the area within two 20 hours, if I had known, if I had known it, if I had 2l known my way, but I kept wandering for at least ten 22 days. 23 Q. And then did you finally make it? 24 A. Yes, thank God. 25 Q. Were you by yourself the whole time or did Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2708 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic you have any -- run into any company, any friendly 2 company, that is? 3 A. I was by myself all the time. 4 MR. MCCLOSKEY: Thank you very much. I have 5 no further questions. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 7 Mr. McCloskey. 8 Witness L, now you are going to answer 9 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Petrusic, who lO is representing the Defence in this case. ll Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. l2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, l3 Your Honours; good morning, my Colleagues. l4 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: l5 Q. Good morning, Witness L. Witness L, while l6 you were living in Srebrenica, you were not engaged in l7 the military in any way? l8 A. No, I wasn't. l9 Q. Were you living together with your brother? 20 AJ Yes, we lived together; not before the war, 2l but after the war, yes. 22 Q. Your brother was in the military; he was 23 there as a cook? 24 A. Yes, he was. 25 Q. Witness L, if you could please pause before Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2709 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic you answer my question, because there are interpreters 2 who have to interpret everything we say here. 3 A. Yes, l'll do that. 4 Q. Did you ever hear from your brother about a 5 possible fall of Srebrenica? 6 A. No, I didn't hear anything from him. Nobody 7 knew five or six days before it happened that it would 8 fallJuly the shelling started. Did lO people at that moment start to talk about the fall of ll Srebrenica? l2 A. No, they did notJuly you reached Susnjari? l4 A. Yes. l5 Q. You said in evidence that the commanders had l6 decided that you should go through the woods. l7 A. Yes. lS Q. Could you tell us whether they were military l9 commanders? 20 A. There were both military commanders and 2l personnel who was working at the Srebrenica 22 municipality. They were also some kind of commanders. 23 Q. So would that include both political and 24 military leaders of the municipality? 25 A. Yes, it would. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness; Witness (open session) Page 2710 cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Q. Did they say anything about the population, 2 the people who were supposed to go to Potocari and the 3 people who were supposed to go to the woods? 4 A. No, they didn't say anything about that, but 5 we knew that Srebrenica had over 40.000 inhabitants, 6 and therefore I think that there were about l5.000 7 able-bodied men, including young men, who didn't dare 8 go to Potocari. 9 Q. After you had spent the night between the l0 l2th and the l3th of July somewhere in the woods around ll the area of Buljim you surrendered on the l3th of July, l2 around 3.00 in the afternoon, to the VRS soldiers? l3 A. Yes, I did. l4 Q. Your column, according to what you have said, l5 had about 200 people? l6 A. According to my estimate, my column had about l7 400 people, but not everybody came with me; some people l8 had arrived even before, and they kept coming l9 afterwards as well. 20 Q. In the evening, after General Mladic had 2l spoken to you, and before the buses and trucks had 22 arrived, the buses that you later on boarded to go in 23 the direction of Bratunac, how many people could have 24 been on that meadow at that time? 25 A. At least 2.000 people. The meadow was Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2711 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic crowded with people. People were sitting next to each 2 other. There were between 30 and 40 rows -- the rows 3 were between 30 and 40 meters long. 4 Q. According to your knowledge, did everybody go 5 in the direction of Bratunac? 6 A. No, not everybody did. 7 Q. You were in the trailer of one of the 8 trucks. Could you tell us how many people were put on 9 the buses and trucks at that point in time, when you l0 sat out? ll A. No, I couldn't tell you anything about that. l2 I didn't know how many people there were. I don't l3 remember the figures. The moment I entered the truck, l4 I didn't know what was happening with other people. My l5 brother had stayed behind, and I never saw him after I6 that. l7 Q. Witness L, as you were coming down the hill, l8 going towards the road where you eventually l9 surrendered, did you notice any vehicles? 20 A, We saw several artillery vehicles, two or 21 three of them, when we reached the road. There was an 22 APC near the place where we were, and that's all, aside 23 from the buses and trucks that kept passing by carrying 24 women and children to Tuzla. 25 Q. Let me go back to the meadow for a second. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2712 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Could you observe any other groups of people from the 2 spot where you were? 3 A. No. I could only see that one group of 4 people. 5 Q. You saw some insignia, some patches with 6 Republika Army letters written on it? 7 A. Well, we saw one person wearing a kind of 8 black scarf. He seemed to be in charge, and he was the 9 one who told us that we would be exchanged. And he had l0 a white patch on his sleeve, with letters VRS, ll Republika Army, on it. l2 Q. In addition to the letters, Armija Republika l3 was there anything else on that patch? l4 A. I think that they had the four letters S, but l5 it was difficult for me to observe that. And also l6 their patches seemed to be damaged. l7 Q. Witness L, you testified that there were four lS young boys in the gymnasium. l9 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know what happened to them? 21 A. Those children were set free, because after I 22 had reached the free territory I inquired about the 23 release of the four young boys, and they told me that 24 they had been released. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2713 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to interrupt youthe transcript that the witness has mentioned four 3 letters S. In the French interpretation I was told 4 that the letters were written in Cyrillic alphabet, 5 which I cannot see in the English transcript. Yes, but 6 I still think it's very important. Perhaps, 7 Mr. Petrusic, you could ask the witness if the letters 8 were written in Cyrillic alphabet or in Latin 9 alphabet. I think it is important, so if you could lO please do that, Mr. Petrusic. ll MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, l2 Mr. President. I will heed your advice and I will ask l3 the witness about it. l4 Q. Witness L, you mentioned four letters S. l5 Were they written in Cyrillic or Latin alphabet? l6 A. Serbs always used Cyrillic alphabet. Even l7 their registration plates were in Cyrillic letters. l8 And it was actually the first time that I saw l9 registration plates in Cyrillic alphabet, which had not 20 been the case before the war. 21 Q. You mentioned a vehicle that you referred to 22 as tamic. It was the vehicle that was near the 23 gymnasium. You were put on that vehicle and taken to 24 the execution site. You said that it had had civilian 25 registration plates. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2714 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic A. No, I didn't say anything about civilian 2 registration plates. Whether they were police or 3 military, I don't know. I'm not sure about the 4 letter. I don't know whether it was the letter P. 5 Because the Zvornik registration plates started with 6 letters or V, so that was not a registration plate 7 from Zvornik. So it must have been a police or a 8 military vehicle. But it was a tamic vehicle with the 9 green canvas on it. lO Q. So according to your observation, the plates ll started with Cyrillic letters l2 A. No. It was something like a letter or a l3 similar letter to that one. At any rate, it did not l4 have ZV letters on it. This is what I had observed l5 prior to that. And this time I could only see Cyrillic l6 letters SC, the Serbian Sarajevo. But that was the l7 vehicle which I had seen before that. But this one did lS not have a civilian licence plate. It could only have l9 been a military or a police vehicle. 20 Q. I'm sorry. My intention was not to confuse 21 you. I just wanted to ascertain that the letter Yes, but I'm telling you that I'm not sure. 24 All I know is that the letters were not ZV. 25 Q. When you were brought to the execution site, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2715 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic the group of soldiers that was there waiting for you, 2 was that the same group of soldiers who later executed 3 people? 4 A. Probably not, because they were not 5 rotating. I could only hear shots, and I'm not sure 6 whether those were the same soldiers. 7 Q. Did they talk amongst each other? 8 A. No, at that time they didn't. 9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, lO if I may, I should like to go back to a particular ll issue. l2 Q. I should like to ask the witness whether at l3 that time he could distinguish between police and l4 military licence plates. l5 A. At that time I wasn't familiar with the l6 plates that were used by the Serbian police, but I l7 think that they were not just either police or l8 military. I still don't know what kind of licence l9 plates the police had in the Federation or in Serbia, 20 and in the Federation today we have a uniform type of 21 licence plate, and so I don't know the difference. 22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 23 Mr. President, I have concluded my cross-examination, 24 thank you very much. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2716 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey Mr. Petrusic. 2 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any additional 3 questions? 4 MR. MCCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could ask 5 two questions back at the that I failed to ask the 6 first time. 7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, if 8 you forgot to ask those questions, then later on I will 9 have to give Mr. Petrusic the opportunity to lO cross-examine again. Yes, please, do ask your ll questions, Mr. McCloskey. l2 MR. MCCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. l3 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey: I4 Q. While you were at the that was crowded l5 with people, did you see any of the Muslims pass out in I6 any way? l7 A. Yes, there were people passing out, mostly l8 because they were thirsty. l9 Q. And did you see what happened to those 20 people? 21 A. No, nothing. Nobody helped us. But one of 22 our people would usually go to get some water and we 23 would ask that person to then give him some water to 24 refresh him. 25 Q. Did the Serbs provide any sort of medical Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2717 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic help at the at all? 2 A. No, none, whatsoever. No help at all. 3 MR. Thank you, Mr. President. 4 That's all. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 6 Mr. Petrusic, do you have anything in relation to 7 this? 8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I should just 9 like to check whether I understand the witness lO correctly. ll Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: l2 Q. When these people fainted, was it -- were l3 they allowed to get some water? l4 A. Yes, but because everybody -- the place was l5 so crowded, and the water sometimes couldn't reach them l6 and everybody asked for more water than there actually l7 was. l8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you l9 very much, Mr. Petrusic. 20 Judge Riad. 21 Questioned by the Court: 22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. 23 Good morning Witness L. I'll just try to 24 understand more clearly certain things you mentioned. 25 You mentioned that you were captured with your Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2718 Questioned by the Court brother. Did you hear anything about your brother 2 since you were captured? 3 A. No, I haven't heard anything. He went one 4 way and I went the other and I don't know anything 5 about what happened to him. 6 JUDGE RIAD: Since the of July, l995Since the l3th of July, l995, I haven't heard 9 of him. Since that -- from the time when we were lO sitting together in the meadow. He was maybe lO to l5 ll rows behind me sitting on that meadow. l2 JUDGE RIAD: Did you try to make any search l3 to find out? Did you get any news? l4 A. Well, we searched for him through the Red l5 Cross. He has a wife and children, but they were l6 unable to locate him. l7 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you left Srebrenica to lS Susnjari, you said you had with you something like 200 l9 armed men. Was there any exchange of fire between 20 these men and between the Bosnian Serbs? 21 A. At that time, no. I don't know what happened 22 further on along the way. It was only later on that we 23 learned that there had been an ambush, so they had 24 remained behind and we left. 25 JUDGE RIAD: An ambush, who made the ambush Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2719 Questioned by the Court for the other? Was it the Serbs who ambushed the 2 Muslims? 3 A. The Serbs. 4 JUDGE RIAD: And then, I'm just following 5 your testimony, apparently some -- when Arkan's men 6 came and they were -- you were asked to shout or to 7 sing, "Long live the king." Who was that king? 8 A. Well, most probably the Serbian king. We 9 don't have a king at all. And the Serbs have a king. lO I mean, they don't have him now, but they used to. ll JUDGE RIAD: You don't know what they were l2 referring to? l3 A. I beg your pardon. I4 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know which king they l5 are referring to; last century, last -- I6 A. No, I don't know. Most probably -- now they l7 don't have a king in Serbia, and there is no king in I8 Bosnia either. l9 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know. And when you 20 were boarding the bus, you said you asked -- you 21 answered the Defence counsel that the badges were 22 damaged, you could not see their badges of the soldiers 23 but you could hear their voice. You being a man living 24 in that area, was it the Bosnian accent? Was it the 25 Serb accent? What was the -- Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2720 Questioned by the Court A. Well, they probably spoke with a Serbian 2 accent which is even more pronounced now, but before 3 they used to speak like us. 4 JUDGE RIAD: The soldiers spoke like you or 5 like the Serbs in Serbia? 6 A. They spoke like us, but they have a 7 different accent. They pronounce -- they don't use the 8 letter every time they should, for example. 9 JUDGE RIAD: Who doesn't use the letter l0 A. Well Serbs, for example. We say "hljeb" and ll they say "ljeb", especially people from the l2 But those living in cities, they speak l3 like us. l4 JUDGE RIAD: Those living in cities like l5 Belgrade, for instance? l6 A. Yes, yes, yes. There was no difference l7 between Belgrade and places in Bosnian, but it also l8 depended on the education. Educated people do l9 pronounce this letter uneducated people don't. 20 JUDGE RIAD: And these soldiers were educated 2l people? 22 AJ Well, I don't know them. I know only this 23 one who used to work with me as concrete reinforcer; he 24 was a semi-skilled worker. 25 JUDGE RIAD: I'm speaking of soldiers. At a Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2721 Questioned by the Court certain stage they are saying, "We are not soldiers, we 2 are Karadzic's young Chetniks." Where did these young 3 Chetniks come from? 4 A. They were standing at the door of the 5 where we were. They were sort of guarding us. They 6 would shoot from time to time in the air. They were 7 very young people. 8 JUDGE RIAD: They were Bosniaks? 9 A. Yes, they were most probably Bosniaks, l0 Bosnian Serbs. ll JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you surrendered on the l2 July l3th, you heard somebody saying, "These guys are l3 ours." That was the translation. What was the meaning l4 of that? l5 A. Well, according to my opinion, those elderly l6 people most probably thought that if we were to be l7 incarcerated, that then they could beat us because they l8 didn't have any weapons in their hands. l9 JUDGE RIAD: I mean you are their victims, 20 "These guys are ours," means they want you to be their 21 victims. Is that what you understood? 22 A. Yes, most probably. Yes. Yes, this is what 23 understood them to mean that they beat us physically 24 because they didn't have any rifles. 25 JUDGE RIAD: And also at a certain stage you Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2722 Questioned by the Court mentioned that Gojko Simic had said he would kiss all 2 those who had been killed. What was the meaning -- 3 what was the meaning of that? 4 A. No. He said that he would kiss the person 5 who will speak. He wanted actually to discover whether 6 anyone was alive. 7 JUDGE RIAD: And when he kisses them, what 8 will happen? 9 A. No, no, no. You haven't understood me. He l0 wanted to see whether anyone was alive and, of course, ll he would kill that person. He wouldn't kiss him. l2 JUDGE RIAD: Because there is something, you l3 know, called the "kiss of death" if you want to save l4 someone. So he wanted to kill them all. It was to l5 kill them completely? l6 A. Yes, and they didn't want to let a single l7 soul living. lS JUDGE RIAD: Did he kiss you? l9 A. God forbid, he didn't. 20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, it was interesting you 2l mentioned that a woman, a Serb woman was in camouflage 22 and gave you water. Were there women among the Serb 23 soldiers killing you? 24 A. That was the only woman. She was in the 25 gymnasium from where we were taken, and I didn't see Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2723 Questioned by the Court any woman over there and I didn't hear a female voice 2 either. 3 JUDGE RIAD: But she was not killing, she was 4 giving water? 5 A. Yes, she was giving water. I don't know what 6 her intentions were though. 7 JUDGE RIAD: My last guestion: You were 8 mentioning that the registration on vehicles was in 9 Cyrillic and it was not familiar in Bosnia. Did I l0 understand ll A. No. Before the war, the plates used to be in l2 Latin alphabet, and everybody had the same kind of l3 plates regardless of the nationality. But when the war l4 broke out and until l995, until I was captured at l5 Grbovci, I didn't see that the Serbs had different l6 plates, but at that moment I saw that they actually had l7 different licence plates with Cyrillic letters on them l8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness L. l9 A. Thank you, Your Honour. 20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 2l Judge Riad. 22 Judge Wald. 23 JUDGE WALD: Witness L, at the time that you 24 were discussing the different kinds of uniforms and 25 camouflage uniforms that the people around, I think it Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT 98 33 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2724 Questioned by the oem was the Grbovci school were wearing, I think that you 2 were mentioning that some were wearing a grey 3 camouflage that you thought were either Serbian Bosnian 4 police or military. 5 My guestion is: Did the people wearing those 6 kind of uniforms do anything different? Were they 7 performing different functions from the soldiers or 8 were they doing the same thing as the soldiers in the 9 regular army camouflage uniforms? Did they seem to be lO having a different function or were they intermixed ll with the army performing the same kind of guarding and l2 transporting functions? l3 A. They were just there in the compound. They l4 were mixed together, the Serb police and the army. But l5 at the door were only soldiers, very young boys under l6 20 years of age, I think. l7 JUDGE WALD: But the ones who were in the l8 yard with the greyish uniforms were basically doing the l9 same thing as the other soldiers, right? They were not 20 at the door, I understand they were in the yard. 2l A. They were in the yard when we arrived, but 22 those in grey uniforms didn't come to the door because 23 their police wear such uniforms. 24 JUDGE WALD: Could you tell what they were 25 doing there? Were they just standing around? Were Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2725 Questioned by the oem they doing anything special, the ones in the grey 2 uniform? 3 A. They were just giving us orders to run 4 towards the school, and we don't know what they did 5 afterwards outside. 6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, did some of the 7 vehicles that you were discussing whether they had 8 military or other kinds of police identification on it, 9 were any of those kinds of military police vehicles l0 used for transporting the prisoners? ll A. No, the vehicles were not like that. l2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You did speak of there l3 being -- when you were being transported to the school, l4 30, approximately 30 large vehicles of all different l5 types, you said. Could you tell whether all of those l6 vehicles looked like they were local vehicles or did l7 any of them have markings which would suggest they had l8 come from farther away since there were so many large l9 vehicles in that small place? 20 AJ All the vehicles were civilian. None of them 2l came from the outside. We would only see the vehicle 22 that would be unloaded in front of us, then they would 23 go back to pick up some more. 24 JUDGE WALD: But you couldn't tell whether 25 some of these vehicles had markings of, you know, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2726 Questioned by the Court private companies on them or military markings or 2 what? 3 A. They didn't have private or military 4 markings. They were mostly vehicles from the former 5 Yugoslavia, the socialist republic of 6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was a company from Sarajevo, 7 they had the same markings. The only difference being 8 that the licence plates were in Cyrillic with a double 9 standing for Sarajevo, Serbian Sarajevo. l0 JUDGE WALD: So some of them did come at ll least from towns and cities that were away from Grbovci l2 and from where they were. They had to come a distance l3 obviously if they came from Sarajevo, right? l4 A. I don't know whether they used those buses in l5 Zvornik or Bratunac or Sarajevo, I don't know. I just l6 know that those were the registration plates and that l7 they were Centrotrans buses, belonging to the lS Centrotrans Company. l9 JUDGE WALD: And the Centrotrans Company, do 20 you know whether it operates; all of Bosnia or just 2l certain regions? 22 AJ All of Bosnia and Herzegovina, everywhere. 23 JUDGE WALD: My next guestion is: In the 24 Grbovci school when you went into the gym, could you 25 tell whether or not that school looked like it had Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2727 Questioned by the Court recently been used as a school, I mean, or was it an 2 abandoned kind of school, a derelict school so that it 3 didn't look as if it had been used as a school 4 recently? Were things pretty well cleaned up so that 5 it looked like it had been a regular school recently? 6 A. Until before the war, it was a regular 7 school. But then afterwards when the war came, it was 8 allowed to go into disuse so the wasn't up to 9 something, either. l0 JUDGE WALD: So it didn't look as though that ll school had been used as a school in recent months or in l2 the recent year; is that right? l3 A. Of course it probably hadn't been used for l4 the past two years prior to that. l5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. l6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness L, l7 I have two questions for you. The first is the l8 following: While you were under the control of l9 soldiers or the Serb army, how many days did you go 20 without food? 2l A. We were there around 22 hours. No one gave 22 us anything to eat. I'm not counting the time when we 23 went to be executed; I'm just counting the time that we 24 were sitting there. Nobody offered us any bread or 25 anything. Nobody asked for anything either, but nobody Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2728 Questioned by the Court gave us anything either. 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second 3 question is the following. When you arrived at the 4 school, that is, the gym, you saw a pile of clothing. 5 I'd like to ask you: When you entered the school 6 itself, when you got inside, was the school already 7 full or was it still empty? 8 A. It was half full, more than half full. 9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] More than l0 half of the school was full? ll A. Yes, when I entered. l2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you l3 very much for answering all our questions. You l4 answered questions from the Prosecution, the Defence, l5 the Judges. Is there anything that you would like to l6 say and that hasn't been covered by the answers to the l7 questions? If you wish to add anything, you may do so l8 now. l9 THE WITNESS: I could just put a question to 20 counsel, but one that is not linked to this indictment. 2l JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I'm 22 afraid not. You can leave the question in the air, but 23 the attorney is not obliged to answer that question. 24 You may put the question just like that, to the 25 courtroom. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2729 Questioned by the Court THE WITNESS: My question would he just for 2 this courtroom. 3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Go 4 ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: Mr. lawyer, you are defending a 6 man who left 50.000 children orphaned, without one or 7 both parents. Don't you feel guilty for those orphans, 8 and what right do you have to defend him? That is my 9 question. l0 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going ll to answer that, Witness L. The Defence attorneys are l2 doing their job here, and they're doing their job l3 properly. All the accused have the right to a Defence, l4 and that is why we are here. We are here to hear the l5 Prosecution and the Defence, and it is always important l6 that the Prosecution does its job well, and the Defence l7 also do their job well, and the Judges are there to l8 judge. Thank you very much for coming here and for the l9 spontaneous manner in which you answered our 20 guestions. I hope I will help you understand that all 2l the attorneys are doing their job, which doesn't mean 22 that they share any responsibility. 23 THE WITNESS: I know that. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And 25 regardless of the responsibility of the -- Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2730 Questioned by the Court THE WITNESS: I know that. I understand 2 that. 3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- and 4 regardless of the perpetrators of acts, and those acts 5 are certainly horrible acts, and you are alive to tell 6 the world that such acts must not be repeated. 7 Don't move for the moment, Witness L. I 8 think Mr. McCloskey has at least one exhibit to tender, 9 Exhibit IOO. lO MR. Yes, Mr. President, we would ll offer that as evidence. l2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] l3 Mr. Petrusic? l4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No objection l5 from the Defence, Your Honour. l6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that l7 case, Exhibit will be tendered into evidence. l8 Witness L, you have completed your l9 testimony. Thank you very much for coming. And as I 20 have told you, you must tell the world, you, who have 2l lived through these experiences, that we should do 22 everything to prevent a repetition of such acts. And 23 please remember that all the accused are presumed to be 24 innocent until proven guilty. That is the spirit of 25 justice, and we are rendering justice here in the best Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2731 Questioned by the Court 1 way we can. So don't move yet, because you are a 2 protected witness. 3 We're going to have a 15-minute break now. 4 And I think the next witness has more or less the same 5 protective measures, so we will work in open session. 6 So don't move, Witness, please. Good-bye, 7 and we'll have a 15-minute break now. [The witness withdrew] 9 Recess taken at 10.44 a.m. 10 On resuming at 11.02 a.m. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 12 morning, Witness. Can you hear me? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. 14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, 15 then. Could you please stand up, because you have to 16 read the solemn declaration first, which is written on 17 the piece of paper that the usher will give you. 18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will 19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 20 truth. 2l WITNESS: WITNESS 1\/1 22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. 23 You may be seated now. Are you comfortable, Witness? 24 THE WITNESS: It's okay, thank you. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will be Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2732 Examined by Mr. Cayley I treated well here. You are testifying before the 2 International Tribunal and you will first answer 3 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley. 4 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. 5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. 7 There is something that we have to take care of first. 8 The representative of the Registry will show you a 9 piece of paper with your name written on it, Witness. I0 Could you please tell us by saying only yes or no if II this is really your name. I2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. I3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I4 Now you will be answering questions. I5 I'm sorry, Mr. Cayley. Please proceed. I6 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I7 Examined by Mr. Cayley: I8 Q. Witness, throughout your testimony I shall I9 refer to you as Witness in order to ensure that your 20 identity is not disclosed. And if I could ask you to 2I try to remember to speak as slowly as you can -- I know 22 it's your manner to speak quite quickly -- because we 23 have interpreters between us who are interpreting 24 everything into English and Erench. 25 You're a Bosnian; is that correct? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2733 Examined by Mr. Cayley I A. Yes, it's correctMuslim by faith? 3 A. Yes, I am. 4 Q. I think until I993 you lived in the area of 5 Cerska; is that correct? 6 A. Yesthink in March of I993, when Cerska 8 fell, you moved to a village inside what became the 9 Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? IO A. Yes, it's correct. II Q. I want to now move forward in time, and I I2 want you to think about the IIth of July, I995. And I I3 think at that time you and the other men from the I4 Srebrenica enclave gathered at Susnjari; is that right? I5 A. Yes, that's right. I6 Q. Now, Witness, where did the women and I7 children go? I8 A. The women and children went to Potocari, I9 together with the elderlyPotocari? 2I A. The men, the able-bodied men, didn't go to 22 Potocari; they went to the woods, because they didn't 23 dare to go into their hands. 24 Q. I may ask you questions the answers to which 25 appear perfectly obvious, but nevertheless the Judges Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2734 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 need to know. Why didn't you dare go to Potocari? Why 2 did the men not dare go to Potocari? 3 A. I didn't dare go to Potocari, for example, 4 because they had already surrounded us. They had 5 surrounded Srebrenica and they were entering Potocari, 6 and I didn't go there, didn't dare go there. 7 Q. When you refer to "they" -- you said that 8 "they" had surrounded. Are you referring to the 9 Bosnian Serbs? 10 A. They had attacked us, and on the 11th they 11 entered the town of Srebrenica. And when that 12 happened, I went to the woods, because I didn't dare go 13 to Potocari. But I had sent my wife, my mother, and my 14 chi1dren and a cousin of mine who was 14 years of age; 15 he went to Potocari. They a11 went to Potocari. But 16 he didn't survive. And we went to the woods. And my 17 father was a1so sent to Potocari, but he preferred to 18 go with us. He said, "Sons, I wi11 go to you and then 19 be what may." 20 Q. Was it the Bosnian Serb army that had 21 entered Srebrenica and surrounded the enclave? 22 A, As they were entering the town of Srebrenica, 23 I had already started towards the woods, together with 24 the mi1itary. The command of the army ordered the 25 able-bodied men to go through the woods; and those who Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2735 Examined by Mr. Cayley were weak, they were supposed to go to Potocari. 2 Q. Were you in the army at the time yourself? 3 A. No, I wasn't in the army. 4 Q. Did you carry weapons with you on the of 5 July? 6 A. No. We didn't have weapons. 7 Q. Now, can you remember approximately what time 8 you left Jaglici on the of July? 9 A. In the evening of the of July, around lO l0.00 and this is where we lined up. This is ll where we assembled in Susnjari, and then we went in the l2 direction of Jaglici, Pobudze, and Cerska, on onwards l3 towards Tuzla. I4 Q. Now, I want to move ahead in time to the l3th l5 of July of l995, when I think you found yourself on a I6 hill called Dolina, which is between the hamlets or l7 villages of Jelah and Krke. Do you recall that? I8 A. I do. l9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 20 Prosecutor's Exhibit l2O. If it could be placed in 2l front of the witness and then placed on the ELMO, 22 please. 23 Q. Now, Witness, do you recall yesterday, you 24 and I drew a sketch map of this area together and then 25 this map that you see in front of you is generated on a Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2736 Examined by Mr. Cayley computer today. Does this accurately reflect the 2 sketches that you made for me yesterday? 3 A. This is a correct drawing, correct 4 representation of the location where I was. 5 MR. CAYLEY: Can you place a copy on the 6 ELMO, please. Thank you. 7 Q. Now, Witness, could you indicate on the ELMO, 8 the location of Dolina? 9 A. This is Jelah here [indicates]. Krke and l0 Dolina is here and this is where was on a hill. ll MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the l2 witness has indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit l20 that l3 the pyramid, the triangle, the black triangle is Dolina l4 and that hill is in between two villages called Jelah l5 and Krke. l6 Q. Now, Witness, how far were you from the road l7 that goes between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje? As l8 the crow flies, how far were you from that road? l9 A. This is Konjevic Polje [indicates]. Nova 20 Kasaba is here and I was here near the asphalt road; 2l 500 metres as the crow flies, maybe not even 500. So 22 could observe from the hill, the area of Konjevic Polje 23 and Kasaba, could see the road. 24 Q. Now, from the hill at Dolina, can you tell 25 the Judges what you recall seeing on the l3th of July, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2737 Examined by Mr. Cayley I 2 A. On the I3th of July, it was a Thursday, I 3 remember very well. It was about 2.00 in the afternoon 4 and I noticed trucks and buses passing by moving from 5 Konjevic Polje towards Nova Kasaba. 6 I was there together with eight other people 7 and people started to shout. They were saying, 8 "They're probably taking our women and children. To 9 the free territory." I0 There were two or three buses there at that II point and they turned right off the asphalt road and I2 they went into the -- in the direction of Cerska across I3 the bridge and I was watching them. I4 There was a little path towards Skurici, but I5 then they went directly to Cerska and they turned I6 around the curve and this is where I lost them. There I7 was an APC following them and two other trek vehicles. I8 Maybe five or ten minutes after that, a I9 yellow backhoe started out in the same direction and I 20 could watch it travel as well and at that point, we 2I could only hear fire of small firearms. 22 Q. Witness, if you could pause there for a 23 moment. 24 Now, you said in your evidence that you saw 25 two or three buses which turned right off the asphalt Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2738 Examined by Mr. Cayley road and they went in the direction of Cerska across 2 the bridge. Can you indicate to the Judges, on the map 3 on the ELMO next to you, the road that those three 4 buses took? 5 A. The buses left Konjevic Polje and they turned 6 towards Kamenica. There was a bridge here [indicates], 7 you can see it here, across the Jadar river. And they 8 moved up hill from there towards Cerska. 9 There is a little road which turns left to lO Skurici they went towards Cerska and I could still see ll them. They turned right towards Cerska. l2 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the l3 witness has indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit l2O that l4 the three buses turned onto a road that goes towards l5 the village of Cerska over a bridge that is indicated l6 by a bridge symbol on that road, past -- turning to l7 another small village called Skurici and on the way to l8 Cerska. l9 Q. Now, Witness, you also stated that you saw 20 other vehicles following. Can you describe the APC 2l that you saw to the Judges? 22 AJ Yes, can describe the APC. I noticed also 23 a trek vehicle that was green in colour. There was 24 some soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms on that 25 vehicle, but I couldn't tell which uniform it was. I Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2739 Examined by Mr. Cayley didn't distinguish between various colours, but the 2 soldiers were on the APC. 3 Q. Now, you also said, Witness, that you saw a 4 yellow backhoe vehicle following these buses and the 5 APC. ls that a vehicle which has a shovel on the front 6 of it? Is that the kind of vehicle that you saw? 7 A. Yes, that kind of vehicle. It was yellow. 8 lt had wheels and it had a bucket or a shovel. 9 Q. Now, you then said in your evidence that you lO heard infantry weapons firing. Now, prior to that, did ll you lose sight? l2 A. Yes, first of all, we heard small arms fire l3 and then later on, we heard echo of other weapons that l4 were being fired in the valley. l5 And after the shooting stopped, this lasted l6 for about half an hour, the three buses came back and l7 took the same road in the direction of Konjevic Polje. l8 And the APC followed them, but the excavator remained l9 there longer, longer than half an hour. But it came 20 back the same -- along the same road and it went also 2l in the direction of Konjevic Polje following the APC. 22 Q. I want you to think back to when you first 23 saw the vehicles going towards Cerska. Was there a 24 time when you lost sight of the vehicles because the 25 road goes into woods? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2740 Examined by Mr. Cayley A. Yes, towards the woods, there was a wood 2 there and I couldn't see them because they had turned 3 around the curve and they went in the direction of 4 Cerska. I could follow them for a while while they 5 were passing through the valley, but I couldn't tell 6 exactly what kind of bus it was, what company it 7 belonged to. There were some letters but I couldn't 8 make them out. I was on the hill, I was far away from 9 the buses. lO Q. In terms of the period of time that passed ll between you losing sight of the vehicles and the l2 shooting starting, can you estimate now, looking back, l3 how much time passed between those two events? l4 A. The buses went away and after about lO or l5 l5 minutes, we saw the personnel carrier and then the l6 excavator. And then they came back, one after the l7 other. The personnel carrier followed the buses, but l8 the excavator remained there a little longer. It l9 lagged behind. 20 Q. You misunderstood my question. Do you recall 2l that you stated that there came a time when the buses 22 and the excavator and the APC disappeared from your 23 sight into the woods? 24 A. They didn't go into the woods, they followed 25 the buses along the same road and I could see them. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2741 Examined by Mr. Cayley First, the buses went, then the personnel carrier, then 2 the yellow loader. They all followed the same road, 3 and I could observe them until they turned. 4 Q. After the time that you couldn't see them 5 anymore, how long after that time did the shooting 6 start? 7 A. The shooting started lO minutes after that. 8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. If the witness could 9 be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit ll/3. And if that map lO actually could be left there because we need that ll again. l2 Q. Now, Witness, this is a photograph that I l3 showed you this morning. And what I'd like you to do l4 is to show it to the Judges? l5 MR. CAYLEY: Could the photograph be moved to l6 your left, please. No, other direction and down a l7 little. Actually, the other way And if you l8 could just followed up there is a bit that's pressed l9 down at the top of the photograph. 20 Q. Now, Witness, can you show to the Judges the 2l hill at Dolina where you were watching these events 22 from? 23 A. Let me show you. This is Konjevic Polje, 24 this is Nova Kasaba and this is where I was, at this 25 hill, here, [indicates] this is where I was near the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2742 Examined by Mr. Cayley woods, the Krke woods. And from my vantage point, 2 could see the road leading to Nova Kasaba and the field 3 beyond the road. This is the Krke wood. 4 Q. Could you just put your pointer on the 5 location on the hill and leave it there. 6 A. This is the spot [indicates]. 7 Q. Can you show me the road to Cerska? 8 A. This is the road [indicates]. This is the 9 bridge across the Jadar river and the road goes on l0 towards Cerska. ll MR. CAYLEY: I'm going to attempt to put this l2 into the transcript. On a large panoramic photograph, l3 Prosecutor's Exhibit ll/3, the witness has identified l4 that he was about halfway up the most prominent hill in l5 the middle of that photograph, and that he also l6 indicated on the same exhibit, the road which runs in a l7 vertical, near vertical fashion, from that hill and the l8 main, think, landmark is a bridge which he identified l9 as a bridge across the river Jadar. 20 Q. Witness, what was your view like from the 2l hill at Dolina? 22 AJ I had a very good view. 23 Q. Did you grow up in this area? 24 A. Yes, I did. I'm familiar enough with the 25 area. If I didn't know the area, I probably wouldn't Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2743 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 go there, but I had known the area from before the war. 2 MR. CAYLEY: That's fine, thank you. 3 Q. Now, I think 16 days after Srebrenica fell, 4 you managed to cross the asphalt road between Konjevic 5 Polje and Nova Kasaba; is that right? 6 A. Yes, that's right. 7 Q. Where did you go after that? 8 A. The Serb army withdrew on the 14th day. The 9 asphalt road was cleared and it was on the 16th day 10 that we managed to pull through towards Macesi. That 11 is the area between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba, not 12 far from the turning towards Cerska, and this is where 13 I crossed the asphalt road and I reached the woods near 14 the area of Macesi. And this is where I found several 15 other people. It was already dark. It was at 16 nightfall, and it was drizzling and we spent the night 17 there and after that, we went towards the Udrc 18 mountain. 19 Q. Witness if you just wait for a moment. 20 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be 21 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 120 again. 22 Q. Witness, and if you could just show the 23 Judges the village of Macesi and where you spent the 24 night that night? 25 A. This is Konjevic Polje and this is the road Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2744 Examined by Mr. Cayley I to Cerska and this is where I crossed the road between 2 Konjevic Polje and Cerska halfway through and I went to 3 cross the field and I went to the Macesi woods and this 4 is where I spent the night. And after that I set out 5 towards the Udrc mountain. 6 Q. Thank you, Witness. I just have to record in 7 our record what you pointed to. 8 MR. CAYLEY: So the witness indicated that he 9 crossed the tar macadam road and then turning off IO towards Cerska and then he proceeded towards a village II which is marked as Macesi, spelled M-a-c-e-s-i on I2 Prosecutor's Exhibit I2O. I3 Q. Now, Witness, you then said that you set out I4 towards the Udrc mountain and I wonder if you could I5 just point out for the benefit of the Judges so that we I6 don't all get lost in the forest the location of that I7 mountain? I8 A. This is Udrc. I9 MR. CAYLEY: And let the record show that the 20 witness is indicating to a black triangle underneath 2I which is the word "Udrc." The location is Udrc, just 22 below the Drinjaca river. 23 Q. Now, Witness, when you got to the Udrc 24 Mountain, who did you find there, and what happened to 25 you? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2745 Examined by Mr. Cayley I A. I found there guite a number of men, and I 2 and my friends joined them. I came across a man with a 3 nickname. He wrote down everything: what had happened 4 along the way and what he saw. He put it all down in a 5 notebook. And he listed all our names there on this 6 mountain, our names and surnames, and said, "I'm going 7 to cross into free territory, or at least my notebook 8 will, and you stay here," and he took down everything. 9 He wrote down the names. IO At that moment three men, two of whom were II deaf and dumb, and we asked them how they had managed I2 to escape from Susnjari and Jaglici. We approached I3 them. And the man who was writing down everything, he I4 approached them and asked them how had they managed. I5 And then this man said, "You know where I'm coming I6 from." And he said, "I'm coming from an execution I7 site." I couldn't believe him. Surely it isn't true. I8 And he said, "It is," and he showed me his trousers -- I9 he lifted his trousers and he showed me his wounds. 20 And then he pointed to his ears, saying that he could 2I no longer hear from the explosions. He said he was 22 coming from a hangar. Whether it was Kravica or 23 another place, I'm not sure, but I managed to save my 24 life and to escape. And he came to Udrc. 25 And this man who went to free territory, who Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2746 Examined by Mr. Cayley was going to free territory, he said, "Stay here and 2 someone will come for you." We waited for him for 25 3 days. He didn't come. It started raining. We got off 4 the mountain to a village. We lit a fire. There were 5 just the ruins of a house and stables. We lit a fire 6 to dry ourselves. There was some fruit: apples and 7 plums, and pears, whatever we could find. It was 8 August, I remember well, and -- 9 Q. Witness, if I could just interrupt you. Now, lO you've told the Judges about an account that was told ll by an old man, about how he and two disabled people l2 managed to escape from Jaglici. Do you recall any l3 other accounts that were given by people who had I4 escaped from Jaglici, anything else that the man with l5 the nickname wrote down in his diary? I6 A. I remember the eight men who also spoke about l7 the mass grave. That night, on the l3th, they came I8 along the road. They followed the same road as the l9 APC. They followed that road, the macadam road, 20 towards Kasaba. They said, "We took that road." And 2l when we reached the crossroads we came across a pool of 22 blood. When we saw that pool of blood, we didn't dare 23 go on towards Cerska, so they turned towards Macesi. 24 And the man who wrote this down asked them, "Where 25 could this spot be?" They said, don't know." And I Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2747 Examined by Mr. Cayley said, "If you can't remember the name, then say it was 2 by the Uvalic house." And he wrote all this down. 3 After that, maybe a month later, in 4 September, I was looking for salt, me and my three 5 friends -- 6 Q. Witness, if we could just -- I just have a 7 few questions about what you just said. Now, you said 8 that these men who told the man with the nickname about 9 the pool of blood, that they had crossed the road on lO the l3th. Would that be the l3th of July of l995? ll A. The l3th of July, l995, when the shooting was l2 heard, that night they managed to cross the road and l3 went along the road to Cerska, and that is when they I4 came across this pool of blood. l5 Q. And the road to Cerska, if you could just I6 indicate to the Judges again -- I know you've done it l7 previously -- the road, just the road, on which they I8 found this pool of blood. l9 A. This is the road to Cerska, here 20 [indicates]. There's a turnoff for Macesi and these 2l are the Uvalic houses, and it must have been here. 22 There were some tree stumps there. This is the road to 23 Cerska. And a month later I found this mass grave. 24 Q. Witness, if you could just wait there. 25 MR. CAYLEY: Now, the Witness has indicated Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Cayley Page 2748 I on Prosecutor's Exhibit I2O that the individuals 2 informed the man with the nickname that the pool of 3 blood was 4 after the 5 Q. Now, Witness, I think 6 the Serbs 7 Mountain; is that right? on the road which goes towards Cerska, just turning to the village of Macesi. there came a time when actually noticed all of you men on the Udrc 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And when that happened, what did you do? IO A. He noticed us on Udrc in August. I remember II well. It was a Saturday when we came down from Udrc. I2 Me and my friends who were with me came down to these I3 villages of Babici and others. They were all burned I4 down. There were some houses still standing. We lit a I5 fire. Just then I lit a fire. I found a pot, a I6 bucket, to get some water to wash myself. I started I7 washing myself in a stable. At that moment the people IS from the houses started fleeing into the mountains. I9 They were saying, "Here are the Serbs. The Chetniks 20 are coming." 2I I ran out through the door and I could hear 22 firing at the village. And the troops were coming from 23 the right and from the left to capture us. I just 24 managed to put on shorts. I was barefoot, and I 25 climbed up the mountain. The men who went left or Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98 33 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2749 Examined by Mr. Cayley I right I think were captured, but I managed to escape to 2 Udrc. I spent a day or two there, not long. Then they 3 withdrew from there and I continued along the road to 4 Kladanj. 5 When I got to Huberi I found some more men 6 there. This is towards Sandici. I came across more 7 people and I asked: How were things? And they said, 8 "We can't pass. There was shooting from all sides and 9 we got frightened. We didn't dare go on." IO We spent the night there and went back along II the same road we had taken. And we came back to the I2 place at Suljici, Babici, where I had washed myselfcame across two dead people. One was I4 my relative and the other I couldn't recognise. We I5 were in Babici, and these friends asked me, "Are you I6 going with me to Srebrenica?" I said, "I'm not going I7 back to Srebrenica for the life of me. I want to go to IS free territory." Then these friends separated from I9 me. They went towards Srebrenica to look for food. 20 And then I went from this village of 2I Turmadzici and Babici and I came across a small river 22 between Hakalasi and Hasanovici. I came across eight 23 comrades that I knew, and I joined them and stayed 24 there all the time until I crossed into free territory 25 I3O days later; I think I3O. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2750 Examined by Mr. Cayley I Q. Now, Witness, you say that you tried to -- 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, 3 Mr. Cayley. I think the witness should be asked to 4 speak a little bit more slowly. At least the French 5 interpreters are having difficulty in following him. 6 MR. CAYLEY: 7 Q. Witness, I know it's your manner to speak 8 very quickly, but if you could try and slow down, 9 because, as I said to you, we have interpreters between IO us. So if you'd just take a breath while you're II talking, then that will make your evidence much clearer I2 for everybody. I3 Now, Witness, you said that you returned from I4 Huberi back to the Cerska area, and that you met some I5 friends and you came across, I think, eight comrades, I6 and you joined them and stayed near a small river. Can I7 you indicate on the map where it was that you were I8 staying at this time with your eight comrades? Just I9 approximately. 20 A, Approximately. This is Cerska [indicates]. 2I There's a road going to Hasanici and there's another 22 road to the left, and I followed the river. And 23 halfway between Hasanovici and Hakalasi I was there, 24 between Hakalasi and Hasanovici, in the river. It's 25 about I5 minutes from Cerska, from the school in Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2751 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Cerska, to this part where 1 was. 2 MR. CAYLEY: I'm not going to try to explain 3 that into the transcript, but 1 think it would be 4 accurate to say on Prosecutor's Exhibit 120, that the 5 witness indicated that he stayed near a stream about 15 6 minutes from Cerska, which is marked on the map. 7 Q. Now, Witness, there came a time, I think, 8 when you ran out of salt, and you and your comrades 9 decided to try and go and search for food and for 10 salt. Do you recall thatSeptember, but 1 don't know 12 the exact date. When we ran out of salt, we wondered 13 what we should do. We had a little salt. We ate 14 whatever we could: mushrooms, plants. So then we 15 decided to go down to Pobudze, where we saw a lot of 16 dead and a lot of backpacks. We thought we'd find some 17 salt there. So the four of us set off from the mill 18 and we reached the school at Cerska. 19 From the school -- it was an eight-year 20 elementary school. The four of us agreed at the school 21 the two would look to the right, two to the left, to 22 see where that grave could possibly be. And so from 23 Cerska we went to Konjevic Polje, Kasaba, along the 24 road. We followed the road and we were looking to the 25 left and to the right. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2752 Examined by Mr. Cayley Q. Witness, can you indicate to the Judges the 2 road you're talking about that you took from Cerska? 3 A. This is Cerska [indicates]. This is where 4 the school is. And we went along this road. We went 5 along this road towards Konjevic Polje and Kasaba, 6 asphalt road. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 8 witness is indicating the road that goes from Cerska to 9 the junction of the road between Nova Kasaba and l0 Konjevic Polje. ll Q. Witness, if you could continue with your l2 account of what happened. l3 A. When we left Cerska, the school, when we l4 reached a crossroads called Talusa Luka, we found a l5 pile in the grass, and the two of them said, "This is l6 where the grave must be." We saw it wasn't a grave; it l7 was somebody who had started building before the war. l8 Then we went on and we got to this place, l9 Masuska [phoen]. And then the two of them said, "Here 20 is the grave." And we found it, right here 2l [indicates]. When you go from Cerska, the tomb was on 22 the left -- no, on the right. On the right-hand side 23 was where the excavator had dug the earth. We saw the 24 tomb with freshly dug earth over it. We were sorry. 25 We cried. It could have been my son, my brother. They Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2753 Examined by Mr. Cayley I must be ours. Then he counted 25 steps long. The 2 crater was about 25 steps long and I0 steps wide. I 3 noticed the traces of a caterpillar, of the loader. 4 From that grave, about 5.200 metres, is a road, a 5 crossroads, going towards Macesi, and these houses had 6 been mined, Uvalic's houses. I couldn't see any traces 7 of blood, because there had been rain in the meantime. 8 After that we went along this same road and 9 we reached the bridge across the Jadar. And we didn't I0 dare go towards Konjevic Polje or Nova Kasaba, so we II went between Jelah and Krke, and I reached this hill I2 called Dolina. I3 Q. Witness, if I could just take you back. I4 Could you point to the spot -- and I know this map is I5 only approximate -- where the mass grave is located, I6 where you found the grave? I7 A. Here it is [indicates]. I8 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the I9 witness is pointing to a rectangle just below and to 20 the right of Cerska. 2I Q. Now, Witness, you also said that you could 22 see where an excavator had dug earth. Can you point on 23 this map to where you saw the excavator digging earth? 24 A. Right across the way, across the road from 25 that grave, here [indicates]. We noticed the traces of Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2754 Examined by Mr. Cayley the wheels. We saw the traces there, here, on the 2 right-hand side of the road if you're going to Cerska. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 4 witness is pointing to a Chevron sign immediately above 5 the black rectangle indicating the site of the mass 6 graveyou said that there were two 8 houses down from there that belonged to the Uvalics. 9 Can you just point to those? lO A. Those were the Uvalics' houses, the two ll houses. l2 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the l3 witness is pointing to two house-shaped objects marked l4 "Uvalic," immediately to the right of the spot marking l5 the mass grave. l6 Q. Witness, when you discovered this grave, did l7 you smell anything there? l8 A. I could tell by the smell, the stench. One l9 could feel the stench. 20 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now show 2l Prosecutor's Exhibit l6/5, which is a video. And this, 22 Your Honours, is the video that you've seen already of 23 the Cerska Valley region. lt's a heavily wooded area, 24 it's very rugged, but I think it will give you a better 25 idea of the area we're talking about. l've taken some Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2755 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 video stills which the witness can identify. But it's 2 about 1 minute 30 seconds, 1 minute 45, so it will 3 remind you of the area that we're talking about. 4 If the video could be played, please. 5 [Videotape played] 6 THE WITNESS: This is where I was. That is 7 where saw the buses. 8 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 9 witness has just indicated on the video which shows the 10 road to Cerska, that that is where he saw the buses 11 which he referred to earlier. 12 THE WITNESS: There are the houses 13 [indicates]. 14 MR. CAYLEY: 15 Q. Are those the houses that belonged to the 16 Uvalic brothers? 17 A. Yes, yes, the two houses of the Uvalic 18 brothers. And here's the tomb. This is where the tomb 19 is [indicates]. 20 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 121, and this is a series of 22 stills, Your Honour, that were taken from the video 23 that we've just seen. 24 Q. Now, you pointed out the houses of the Uvalic 25 brothers, and they're just ruins. Why are those houses Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2756 Examined by Mr. Cayley in ruins, Witness? 2 A. Those houses were all right while we were in 3 Cerska. When Cerska fell, they went to mine and 4 destroy one house after another, all our homes. 5 Q. The Bosnian Serbs, you're talking about? 6 A. The Bosnian Serbs, yes, I'm talking about 7 them. They destroyed, torched and mined our houses. 8 Q. Can you point out on these photographs, first 9 of all, the location of the houses of the Uvalic lO brothers? ll A. Those are the houses of the two Uvalic l2 brothers. l3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the l4 witness is indicating on the panoramic View in the l5 frame that is to the furthest right in the series and l6 you can see in the middle of that two grey-white areas l7 which I think can be clearly seen on the clip below the l8 remaining foundations of a house. l9 Q. Can you show the house, the road to Macesi, 20 the intersection? 2l A. This is the road to Cerska, and this is the 22 road that goes to Macesi. You can see it here that's 23 where it is. That's the road to Macesi from here. 24 MR. CAYLEY: My colleague has just informed 25 me that I've misdescribed the photograph. In fact, the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2757 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Uva1ic brothers houses were on the extreme 1eft in the 2 frame, on the extreme 1eft of the panoramic view, and 3 you can see the two sort of grey-white areas which 4 indicate the foundation of those houses. 5 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, can you point out the 6 road again to Macesi? 7 A. The road to Macesi, here it is, this is the 8 crossroad and it turns off here. 9 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness has indicated in 10 the panorama and it can be c1ear1y seen that it goes 11 out to the right and disappears out of the bottom 12 right-hand corner of the panorama. 13 Q. And fina11y, Witness, can you indicate the 14 1ocation to the Judges of the tomb or the mass grave. 15 A. Here it was, here. This is where it was here 16 [indicates]. There was a meadow here, the grave, the 17 river, and this is where the earth was dug up. So the 18 grave was here. 19 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is indicating on 20 the frame on the right of the panorama and it is an 21 area which is on the 1eft-hand side of the road going 22 towards Cerska as the road disappears out of the 23 photograph. 24 Q. Witness, if you cou1d 1ook at the photograph 25 below which is a c1earer View of that fina1 frame. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2758 Examined by Mr. Cayley A. Yes, it can be seen here. This is the mass 2 grave on the left when going to Cerska and this is 3 where the excavator dug the earth. 4 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 5 witness is indicating in the single frame photograph on 6 the lower right side of the exhibit a white-grey area 7 in the centre of the photograph just above where the 8 road curves down and goes off to the left is the grave, 9 and that below that where there's a hedgeline is an lO area, think he said, where the earth was dug, where ll the excavator dug the earth. l2 Q. Thank you, Witness. l3 MR. CAYLEY: Finally, if we could have l4 Prosecutor's Exhibit l6/3. l5 A. This is it [indicates]. l6 MR. CAYLEY: Could the booth perhaps pan out l7 somewhat. That's fine. l8 Q. Witness, can you first of all indicate to the l9 judges the site of the grave that you discovered? 20 AJ The site of the grave, this is where the 2l grave was on this side [indicates]. 22 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 23 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit l6/3 to 24 the right of the yellow distance markers which run down 25 the centre of the road. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2759 Examined by Mr. Cayley A. This is the road here. 2 Q. Can you indicate to the Judges where you saw 3 where the excavator had been at work? 4 A. The excavator had been working on the 5 right-hand side, the left -- no, the right-hand side. 6 Q. Could you indicate with your pointer. 7 A. Across the way from the grave here 8 [indicates] here, here somewhere. There was the slope 9 up there [indicates]. This is the road [indicates], lO and this is the road to Macesi, this is -- to the right ll is the grave, and this is where they dug the earth. l2 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the l3 witness is showing that the excavator had been working l4 on the side of the road which is essentially where the l5 vehicles are parked, so directly opposite the mass l6 grave and it is, in fact, on the left-hand side of the l7 photograph as you look at the photograph. l8 Q. Witness, thank you. Can you tell the Judges l9 who were the male members of your family that you lost 20 during the war? 21 A. After l3O days, I reached free territory. It 22 was the l8th of November when reached Kladanj. I 23 learned that I lost my father, my brother, cousins, my 24 neighbours; and my father who I loved most. 25 I have my mother, my wife, and children, no Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2760 Examined by Mr. Cayley brother, no father, no l4-year-old nephew. They have 2 disappeared. 3 Q. And they -- all of these members of your 4 family disappeared at the time of the fall of 5 Srebrenica in July of l995? 6 A. Yes, the fall of Srebrenica. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you Mr. President. I 8 don't have any further questions for the witness. 9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you l0 very much, Mr. Cayley. ll Mr. Visnjic, how much time do you think you l2 will need for the cross-examination of the witness, l3 approximately? l4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, l5 maybe 20 minutes, and I was about to suggest a break at I6 this point. l7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We l8 will have a l5-minute break now -- no, perhaps we l9 should have half an hour break at this point. 20 Recess taken at l2.00 p.m. 2l On resuming at l2.33 p.m. 22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness M, 23 have you had some rest during the break? 24 A. Yes, I have. Thank you. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, you're Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2761 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic going to answer questions that will be put to you by 2 Mr. Visnjic who is representing the Defence in this 3 case. 4 Let me just remind you, once again, that we 5 speak two different languages and we risk having 6 problems here. And the two of you, Mr. Visnjic and 7 yourself, you speak the same language which can make 8 things even more difficult. 9 So I should kindly ask you to try and make lO breaks, make pauses between questions and answers so ll that the rest of us can hear you and understand you. l2 Thank you very much. l3 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. l4 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic: l5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, l6 Mr. President. l7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness M. l8 A. Good afternoon. l9 Q. Witness M, let me go back to the beginning of 20 your story. You said you had lived in Srebrenica? 21 A. Yes, and I was in Srebrenica until the fall. 22 Q. In the town itself? 23 A. I lived in the outskirts of the town. 24 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you said at 25 one point that on the of July, when Srebrenica Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2762 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic fell into Serb hands, that the population split in two 2 groups; that one group went to Potocari and the other 3 to Susnjari? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. Women and children, 5 civilian population, went to Potocari, and the 6 able-bodied men went to Susnjari in order to save their 7 lives; some managed to do that, some didn't. I was 8 lucky enough to survive. 9 Q. This division of the population was carried l0 out according to whose orders? ll A. Well, our soldiers, our military men were l2 shouting, giving orders. They were telling us -- they l3 told us that the women and children should go to l4 Potocari, and those who felt healthy and well enough, l5 that they should go to the woods. This is what our l6 commanders told us. l7 Q. How did you personally learn about that? Was l8 there a messenger who conveyed the order or were there l9 just rumours? 20 AJ We gathered in the village of Kazani near the 2l cemetery in Srebrenica, and this is where they were 22 told what had happened. They said that women and 23 children and the elderly should go to Potocari, and 24 those who were able-bodied, that they should go to the 25 woods and try to save their lives in this manner. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic Page 2763 Q. You said somebody had told you; was that 2 somebody specific or were there just rumours? 3 A. This is what we heard. They were shouting 4 and they were telling that the weak ones should go to 5 Potocari and that the others should go to the woods, to 6 Susnjari. And those were the orders, and some people 7 survived, some didn't. I managed to survive. 8 And so let me tell you once again, it was 9 very difficult for us. I have not come here to argue IO ll what we have been through. And l2 about the l3O days that I spent I3 l4 about what has happened to me. l5 And I feel very sorry l6 this gentleman sitting here, if l7 Tribunal, he wouldn't have come l8 lived -- stayed there and lived l9 before the war. 20 2l I'm sorry to interrupt you, but 22 23 24 give us a direct answer. 25 Wednesday, 12 April 2000 with you. I have come here to tell the truth about I have come to tell you in the woods and how I managed to survive. I've come here to tell the truth for the people. And he had known for this here, would have with us as he did JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness M, could you please try and answer Mr. Visnjic's guestions in a direct manner. If a question is a direct one, please try to We are here to do justice and there are two Case No. IT-98 33 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2764 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic parties here in this case. There is the Prosecution 2 and the Defence. Everybody has the right to defence. 3 Imagine if something should happen to you, 4 you would also need somebody to represent you. 5 We do understand the suffering you've been 6 through, but please try to answer the questions of 7 Mr. Visnjic directly, please. 8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 9 Q. Witness M, in one of your previous l0 statements, you said that the column had left Susnjari ll around l0.00 is that correct? l2 A. Yes, it is. l3 Q. You also said that you were walking from the l4 l2th of July until l3th, that you reached the village l5 of Kamenica? l6 A. Yes, that is true this is where we spent the l7 day resting, it was the place of Kamenica. And this is l8 actually where the tragedy happened later on, the l9 terrible thing. 20 Q. Please, if we can let the interpreters 2l translate. This is why I stopped. 22 You also said that you left Kamenica around 23 6.00 p.m. and that around l900 you ran into an ambush; 24 is that correct? 25 A. Yes. We were surrounded and they opened fire Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2765 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic and the shooting lasted for about half an hour, and a 2 disaster happened and people were in great fear. 3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, 4 please, for the interpreters. 5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 6 Q. You also said that on the l3th of July you 7 arrived in the village of Burnice; is that correct? 8 A. Yes, that's correct, in the morning hours of 9 the l3th. lO Q. Also on the l3th, that is, on the same day, ll you left the village of Burnice and went to village of l2 Rahonjici. l3 A. Yes. We went across the field and we reached l4 the village of Rahonjici. l5 Q. You said that on the same day you left the l6 village of Rahonjici and went to the village of l7 Mranice, which is near the village of Rahonjici? l8 A. Yes, this is what I did, and this is where I l9 reached the junction where I found three or four dead 20 bodies. The junction was the one for the village of 2l Mranice and the village of Krke. And I heard 22 somebody -- I heard noises, I heard people calling me, 23 but I didn't dare move. 24 Q. What day was it, if you can remember that? 25 A. It was on the l3th, on Thursday morning. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2766 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic Q. So you -- this all happened on Thursday 2 morning; is that correct? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 Q. You also stated that a part of the people 5 from your group surrendered on that day. 6 A. Yes. There were maybe 50 of us in the group, 7 and there were some people whom I knew, whom I 8 recognised. People were inquiring about their family 9 members. And while I was there in that group, a lO personnel carrier came from Konjevic Polje, from the ll direction of Konjevic Polje. I couldn't recognise the l2 soldiers who were on the personnel carrier, but I l3 noticed that they were wearing camouflage uniforms. l4 And they went in the direction of Nova Kasaba, but they l5 only got as far as Dzugum, as far as a cafe which was l6 situated there. And people started shouting, telling l7 us to surrender. They were telling us that the Red l8 Cross was there, that UNPROFOR people were there, and l9 they told us to come down to the asphalt road and to 20 surrender. 2l I was there together with other people, but 22 whoever had any wits about him didn't even think of 23 surrendering. And some l3O of us remained in that 24 river, in that little brook. And this is -- and then 25 afterwards I went in the direction of Jelah and the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2767 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic I Krke woods. 2 Q. What time of the day was it when several 3 members of your group surrendered? 4 A. It was on the same day, on the I3th of July, 5 around I0.00 or maybe half past 9.00 in the morning. 6 And I was watching them while I was at the village of 7 Krke, as they were climbing down the hill and going 8 towards the asphalt road. I noticed several groups of 9 Serb soldiers and I could see people Coming out on the I0 asphalt road. I could hear Serb soldiers asking them II if they had any weapons, and they said they didn't, and I2 at that point they would raise their hands. But then I3 one would hear a voice of someone who was giving I4 commands, and then they told people to halt, to stop, I5 and to raise their hands. I6 Q. How far were you from the asphalt road at I7 that moment? I8 A. There was a brook there and there was a I9 little forest, the Krke wood, and maybe I was some 500 20 meters away from them. I'm not quite sure. This is an 2I approximate distance. But I could see everything. I 22 could see the asphalt road, I could see people coming 23 down to the asphalt road, I could see them surrender, 24 being captured. And the Serb soldiers also came down 25 to the asphalt road and they were pointing their rifles Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2768 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic at them, trying to prevent them from escaping, and I 2 was observing all that. I wanted to see whether they 3 would be taken to Kasaba or to Konjevic Polje. But I 4 didn't follow them as far as Nova Kasaba. I lost them 5 at one point. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 7 Mr. Visnjic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I should like 8 to ask you to ask very specific and short questions so 9 that we don't lose too much time, waste too much time. lO The question was what distance it wascontrol the witness, please, Mr. Visnjic. You can l2 interrupt the witness. That's okay with me. If you l3 don't do that, I will have to intervene every time. l4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, l5 Mr. President. I didn't want to interrupt the witness, l6 but otherwise I would have intervened. l7 Q. Let us clarify something, Witness M. You l8 were observing the asphalt road at the moment some l9 people surrendered. You were at the same spot as when 20 you saw the buses and the excavator. 2l A. No. I was closer to the location. I was in 22 Mranice and I was between the Krke wood and the brook. 23 Q. So this is another location; this is a 24 different location? 25 A. Yes. I was watching people coming down to Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2769 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic the asphalt road and surrender from that wood, and I 2 saw them leave in the direction of Konjevic Polje. And 3 afterwards I left the Krke wood and I went in the 4 direction of Jelah, and this is where I stopped, on a 5 hill. 6 Q. Let us pause a little for the interpretation, 7 and then I will ask my question. 8 So this is where you were on the l3th of 9 July, in the afternoon? l0 A. Yes. In the morning. It was in the morning ll when I was at the Krke woods. And after that I left l2 the Krke wood and I went to the area called Dolina. l3 Q. What time was it when you reached this other l4 location? l5 A. It could have been l.00, half past l.00 in l6 the afternoon. l7 Q. How far from you were the Serb soldiers, from l8 the second location? l9 A. Well, maybe 500 meters away from me. They 20 were on the asphalt road and I was in the forest, and I 2l was watching from my vantage point. I didn't want to 22 move, because I was afraid. I wanted to stay near the 23 brook. And I was actually running from wood to wood. 24 I was hiding all the time. 25 Q. If I understand you correctly, in the morning Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2770 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic you were on a location which was some 500 meters away 2 from the asphalt road, and you were afraid that you 3 would be found by Serb soldiers, so you moved to 4 another location, which was also 500 meters away from 5 the asphalt road. 6 A. Yes, and it was between Krke and Jelah. 7 Q. Thank you very much. My next question 8 concerns the second location. You could see Serb 9 soldiers from that location; is that right? l0 A. From the second location where I was between ll Krke and Jelah, in the area of Dolina? No, I could not l2 see soldiers from there, going towards Cerska. l3 Q. Did you see Serb soldiers on the asphalt road l4 from that point? l5 A. Yes, because the road was completely l6 blocked. People were coming down from the area of l7 Mranice and Krke and going towards Konjevic Polje. l8 That whole area was completely sealed off. Nobody l9 could get through. And they had posted their guards 20 every ten -- there were bunkers everywhere, every ten 2l to fifteen -- 22 Q. Tell me: You saw three buses on that day? 23 A. Yes, on the llth, in the afternoon, around 24 l400 hours, yes. 25 Q. Were there Serb soldiers in those buses? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2771 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic A. I couldn't notice whether Serb soldiers were 2 in the buses or not, whether there were civilians or 3 ordinary people. I don't know. I just saw three 4 buses. 5 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down because of 6 the interpretation. 7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 8 Q. So you couldn't see whether there was anyone 9 in the buses? lO A. Because I was far away, I couldn't see. It ll was a large distance. l2 Q. How do you know that those buses were full of l3 people, or is it your assumption? l4 A. It is my assumption, because later on I heard l5 the shooting. I'm not sure, but I think that those l6 were the people who had surrendered. I assumed that l7 those were those people who went to Konjevic Polje, in l8 the direction of Cerska. That is what me and my l9 comrades thought, that they must be those people. 20 Q. Witness M, you made a statement previously to 21 the Tribunal and the Ministry of the Interior after you 22 crossed into free territory? 23 A. Yes. I told the truth everywhere. I made a 24 statement, telling the truth, and I have come here to 25 tell the truth, to tell everything I saw and Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2772 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic experienced. 2 Q. I know that some time has passed by since 3 then and that perhaps your memories are not too 4 precise, but I would like to show you the statement you 5 gave to the Ministry of the Interior on the 22nd of 6 November, l995. 7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit Dl5. 8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 9 Q. On page I have highlighted in yellow, to l0 make it easier for you to find the place. There's a ll sentence which says: "On the l2th day, after I left l2 Srebrenica, so that is on the 22nd of July, l995, in l3 the afternoon, from the direction of Konjevic Polje l4 three white buses arrived, followed by an armoured l5 personnel carrier on wheels, with an anti-aircraft gun l6 on the turret and a yellow excavator loader." l7 My guestion is as follows: During your stay l8 in the area of Pobudze did you see three buses driving l9 in the direction of Cerska on a number of occasions or 20 only once? 2l A. Only once, on the l3th of July, around 2.00 22 in the afternoon. I'm sure of that. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the 25 usher for his assistance, please, with the next Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2773 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic exhibit. It is a statement given on the l7th of 2 January, l996, to the investigator of the Tribunal. 3 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit DI6. 4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 5 Q. On page 4 -- 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 7 Mr. Visnjic, excuse me for interrupting you. It's 8 simply to tell you that the method that you used for 9 the other exhibit is a very good onethe future as well. I'm just telling you that we ll appreciate that very much, so please do that in the l2 future as well. So you can continue, Mr. Visnjic. l3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, l4 Mr. President. I'm afraid on this exhibit I failed to l5 mark the sentence, and I accept your criticism. l6 Q. On page 4, fourth paragraph, it starts: "At l7 hours Have you found the place? l8 A. Yes. l9 Q. "At hours we saw three white buses full 20 of people coming from the direction of Konjevic Polje, 2l going in the direction of Nova Kasaba. I could not see 22 if the passengers were only men, but I assume that they 23 were transporting prisoners who had surrendered." 24 A. Yes, I remember that. That is correct. 25 Fine. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2774 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic Q. Yes, but in the previous paragraph it says, 2 "The l4th of July, buses and trucks packed with people 3 were passing along the road." So can you explain the 4 difference between these two events? 5 A. Yes. The people were going from Konjevic 6 Polje to Kasaba in trucks and buses; in the morning too 7 they were passing by, and I followed all this and I saw 8 all this. When in the afternoon they went towards 9 Cerska, I thought that they were also civilians that lO they were taking. But when I saw them turn towards ll Cerska, I said, "Something is wrong." No, but the l2 other one said, "They're taking them to free l3 territory," and I said no, and I proved to be right. l4 Q. You said a moment ago that you didn't see l5 whether they were full of people so you just assumed I6 that? l7 A. Yes, I assumed that. l8 Q. Thank you. Witness M, you stayed in the l9 area, if I understood you correctly, until around the 20 25th of July for some ll or l2 days in all? 2l A. After that, I couldn't pass. The Serbian 22 army had withdrawn from the bunkers and freed the road, 23 and I was able to pass. The first night I passed, they 24 didn't fire. But we were all afraid, of course, all of 25 us. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness; Witness (open session) Page 2775 cross-examined by Mr. visnjic Q. Yes, but let's answer the question, please. 2 I assume that you were watching the road on a daily 3 basis? 4 A. Yes, I was watching the road. Then I went 5 back to the villages and hid in the woods. Another day 6 the infantry started after us from Jaglici. 7 Q. Finally, you crossed to the other side and 8 reached Udrc? 9 A. Yes. After that, I did. On the l6th or l7th lO day, I reached the Udrc mountain. ll Q. During your stay on Udrc mountain, did you l2 have any indications or did you hear that the Serb army l3 was searching the area and following you? l4 A. Of course they were following us and l5 monitoring us. I noticed them all, yes, everything l6 Q. How long did this last while you were on l7 Mount Udrc? l8 A. When I crossed the asphalt road, that was the l9 l8th day. I spent 25 days there on Udrc. This was in 20 August when the army arrived and the APC. That was a 2l Saturday at the beginning of August. 22 Q. For how long were they searching the area 23 for one month, two months, or did you have the feeling 24 that they were there all the time? 25 I'm not asking you about that specific Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2776 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic event. I'm asking you, roughly, can you tell us an 2 indication of the time they spent searching the area? 3 Was it throughout the time you were there? 4 A. For a short time, no, only for about a few 5 days, a short time. A short time, only two days. They 6 were chasing people and those they managed to catch 7 alive, and when they withdrew, then we came down and 8 went through the woods. And later on I joined this 9 group. lO Q. Later you didn't come across Serb troops? ll A. No, never again. And I was able to move l2 around freely in Cerska, my place. We were safe l3 there. It was better in Cerska and on Udrc mountain l4 than in Pobudze because I was encircled on all sides l5 thereback? l7 A. Yes, of course I did to Pobudze. I was l8 looking for salt, we needed salt. There were dead l9 people, our people, in the streams in the fields. And 20 we searched their knapsacks to find some salt. 2l Q. This was at least a month later? 22 A, Yes, this was about mid-September. 23 Q. Let us go back to the incident when you 24 discovered the mass grave. As far as I understood from 25 your testimony, you moved around quite freely in that Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2777 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic area? 2 A. Yes. After the last search in August, we 3 moved around freely in the woods and along the road. 4 There were no searches, there was nothing, so we were 5 free to move around in Cerska. 6 Q. When you found that grave, did you just find 7 a pile of earth? 8 A. Yes, fresh earth on the left-hand side of the 9 road. And on the right-hand side, I saw where the lO excavator had dug up the earth and traces of the wheels ll and I felt the stench of corpses. l2 Q. But you didn't see any corpses, you just felt l3 the stench and the traces on the ground? l4 A. No, I just had this smell, and we noticed l5 those traces of the excavator. l6 Q. Was there any grass covering that earth l7 already or any weeds? l8 A. No, no. There was no grass, it was fresh. l9 There was no grass on that earth, it was freshly moved 20 earth. 2l MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, 22 Mr. President. I have no further questions. 23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 24 Mr. Visnjic. 25 Mr. Cayley, do you have any additional Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2778 Questioned by the Court questions. 2 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no 3 questions for the witness in re-examination. Thank 4 you. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Cayley. Judge Riad 7 Questioned by the Court: 8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, do I have a number of 9 questions. lO Good morning, Witness M. I would just like ll to start to ask you just a very few questions from l2 where the Defence counsel stopped concerning the grave l3 you found. l4 You found the grave in September when you had l5 left Cerska and it was freshly dug earth, but you felt l6 the stench and you assumed there were dead people l7 inside. l8 A. Yes. l9 JUDGE RIAD: Could these be the people who 20 were killed in July, would they smell if they are still 2l entered in September, or you assume that they would be 22 freshly killed people? 23 A. I assume they were the people who surrendered 24 who went to Konjevic Polje, and I think they were 25 there. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2779 Questioned by the Court JUDGE RIAD: But there were no signs of dead 2 bodies on the ground, it was all under the ground. 3 A. I didn't notice any bones or anything like 4 that, only the smell. 5 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that the 6 houses were mined, the Uvalic brothers', and other 7 houses were torched and so on, you saw them around. 8 Did you understand or know anything about the people 9 inside? Were they mined with the people inside, some lO of them, or were they empty houses? ll A. Those houses of the Uvalic brothers, they l2 were mined after Cerska fell and the people were l3 evicted. It was after Cerska fell that the houses were l4 mined. When I had left Cerska, they were still l5 standing; not just those two houses but the entire l6 village of Cerska. It was later that the houses were l7 mined and the people chased out and the burning was l8 done. l9 JUDGE RIAD: I'm trying to understand more 20 about the buses you saw when you were going towards 2l Cerska. I think both your testimony today as well as 22 your statement indicates that you saw buses. You said 23 there were three white buses with an excavator and APC, 24 and you just counted almost the minutes you said they 25 disappeared into the woods, and then the shooting Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2780 Questioned by the Court started a few minutes later. And that they were full. 2 You saw that they were full, but you did not see what 3 kind of people were inside. Was that right? 4 A. I didn't see whether the buses were full or 5 empty, but I assume that there were people inside. 6 JUDGE RIAD: But for sure they were empty 7 when they came back? 8 A. I'm sure they were empty when they came 9 back. When the buses came back from up there, and the lO APC, and the excavator, the loader, I assumed that they ll had been full when I heard the shooting. l2 JUDGE RIAD: So when you were on this spot, l3 what was exactly the scenario that you saw in your l4 mind? l5 A. When I followed those three buses along the l6 road from Konjevic Polje, crossing the bridge and going l7 up there, I assumed that there were people inside and l8 that they were taking them to be executed, and that is l9 what happened and we heard the shooting. And when the 20 shooting stopped, the buses came back along the same 2l route, and the excavator/loader stayed behind a little 22 longer for about half an hour after the buses and the 23 APC. 24 JUDGE RIAD: All right. As far as the 25 shooting was concerned, was it the shooting that was Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2781 Questioned by the Court heard in a battle or was it shooting you would hear in 2 some kind of systematic way which indicates execution? 3 A. I heard very strong, heavy fire. It was very 4 loud. It was -- there was a lot of noise, very heavy 5 shell fire could be heard. 6 JUDGE RIAD: You mean it was guns or 7 cannons? What do you call "heavy fire"? What do you 8 think? 9 A. I think there were light arms and also lO machine-guns, bursts of fire from a machine-gun. One ll could hear it echoing along the valley. It was very l2 loud. l3 JUDGE RIAD: But how long did it last l4 approximately? l5 A. 15 minutes, half an hour, something like l6 that. l7 JUDGE RIAD: And after the buses went back, l8 there was no fire again, no bursts of fire? l9 A. No, because probably the APC came after the 20 buses, only the excavators stayed there a little 21 longer. 22 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned a man whom you met 23 who was noting all that happened and he was coming from 24 an execution site, he was a survivor of an execution. 25 Was that right? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2782 Questioned by the Court A. That man at Udrc, yes. 2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, did he tell any details 3 about the execution he lived out of, the number of 4 executed, who did the execution? 5 A. He told us then, and this man took everything 6 down in a notebook, he said that he had escaped from an 7 execution site. We didn't believe him. He showed us 8 the wounds. It was either Lolici or Kravica in a 9 hangar. That's what he said. l0 He recognised a relative of his from Cerska ll and he gave his name, but he didn't know the others. l2 That is what he told us. And he managed to escape the l3 execution. And I didn't see him again. I don't know l4 what his destiny was, whether he's alive or not. l5 JUDGE RIAD: And the number of executed, he l6 did not give you an indication? l7 A. No, he didn't mention numbers because he l8 couldn't hear too well. Anyway, he was going deaf. He l9 was showing with his fingers that he had gone deaf. 20 That man was there with us until Udrc fell. I didn't 2l see him again. Whether he crossed into free territory, 22 whether he survived or not, I don't know. But he came 23 to Udrc and he told me that he had come from this 24 execution site. I can't remember exactly whether he 25 said Lolici or Kravica, he didn't know exactly anyway, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2783 Questioned by the Court but he did say he had come from an execution site. 2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. My last guestion, 3 and you can answer it if you know anything. You 4 mentioned on the of July when the Serbs entered 5 Srebrenica, the men preferred to go to the woods so not 6 to be massacred, but the women and children went to 7 Potocari. What happened to the women and children? 8 Were they safe? 9 A. The women and children went to Potocari and lO we, who were able-bodied went into the woods. ll I told my wife and mother, "Go to Potocari l2 and look after the child, and I'm going into the l3 woods. If I survive, fine. If not, who knows." I l4 didn't know whether I would manage to cross into free l5 territory. My father was there. He was born in l932. l6 And I and my brothers were telling him to go to l7 Potocari, to go with the women, but the old man said, l8 won't, I daren't, they may kill me. If you survive l9 I will too. If you get killed, I get killed too. I'm 20 not sure about going to Potocari." 2l My nephew who was l4 or l5, he just said, 22 "I'm going to Potocari with the women." But he didn't 23 reach free territory. 24 JUDGE RIAD: And why didn't he reach it? 25 A. Because I heard that there was a disaster Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2784 Questioned by the Court 1 there. They separated the young boys and they took 2 them away and executed them as -- at their free will. 3 JUDGE RIAD: He was 14 years old? 4 A. Yes, my nephew was 14. 5 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry to evoke these 6 memories, but we have to know the truth. 7 Thank you very much, Witness M. 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. 9 A. Thank you. I thank Your Honours and 10 everybody working on this. I have come just to tell 11 the truth. And whoever is on the list of war crimes 12 regardless of what ethnic group they belong to, they 13 need to be arrested and tried and brought to court, to 14 justice. If they had been good and if all those Serb 15 soldiers had known about The Hague, they wouldn't have 16 done what they did. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness M, 18 you still haven't finished your testimony. Judge Wald 19 has questions for you so will you please answer them. 20 Judge Wald. 21 JUDGE WALD: Witness M, you told us this 22 morning that on July 13th, you said July 13th was the 23 day that you saw the buses, the three buses; is that 24 right? 25 A. Yes. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2785 Questioned by the Court JUDGE WALD: You said that when you first saw 2 them, "some of the people", and I assume you mean some 3 of the other men that you were with began shouting that 4 these must be our women and children, that they're 5 taking to Tuzla. Had you seen any buses that same day, 6 that is July l3th, of women and children going on the 7 road to Tuzla so that these people around you would 8 assume this was another set of those buses. Had you 9 already seen some buses on the road with women and lO children going in the direction of Tuzla on Kladanj? ll A. On the l3th, I was watching everything and I l2 saw everything; the buses and trucks going from l3 Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba. We assumed that the l4 people were going to Potocari, were being transported. l5 JUDGE WALD: But had you seen, previously, l6 some other buses which you were sure, from your sight, l7 did contain women and children either that day or -- I l8 guess, that day? l9 A. We assumed when those buses and trucks were 20 going to Kasaba, we assumed that the people were being 2l carried but the other three -- 22 JUDGE WALD: I understand that but referring 23 to the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor, you 24 had said you had a different date then. But leaving 25 that aside, you said, "Buses and trucks packed with Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Wltness (Open Session) Page 2786 Questloned by the Court people were passing along the road. We could see that women and children were on board." So I was asking you although you didn't say that in your testimony today whether the reason the men around you assumed that these were women and children because they had actually seen prior buses of women and children such as you mentioned in your statement to the Prosecutor. A. Those buses and trucks that were going towards Kasaba and the people who were with me, they were all saying that they were transporting women to free territory. But at l2.00 when they turned towards Cerska, I said, "They're driving them to execution." But I -- they said, "No, to free territory," but I said, "to execution." JUDGE WALD: No, I understand that very well. I was trying to reconcile what you said previously in your statement that you had earlier seen buses and trucks, actually seen them with women and children on board and that's why people might well have assumed, to begin with, that these buses had women and children. But you don't remember that right now, right, whether you had earlier seen, actually seen buses with women and children. I know these were not Wednesday 12 Apr1l2000 Case No. IT-98 33 Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2787 Questioned by the oem 1 the same. 2 A. Those three buses that went to Cerska, I said 3 that they were men being taken to execution whereas the 4 others were taking the women. 5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. When those three buses 6 returned, when you saw them come back, returned, and 7 you were sure that they were empty, where did they go? 8 mean when they passed by coming back empty, where did 9 they go? What direction did they go? 10 A. They went in the direction of Konjevic 11 Polje. They came from that spot in Cerska towards 12 Konjevic Polje. 13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, 1et me ask you about 14 the statement that Defence counse1 mentioned that you 15 gave to the Ministry of the Interior. I notice that 16 that was given on November 22nd. I be1ieve that wou1d 17 be just four days after you came into the free 18 territory since you said in your testimony you had been 19 wandering and you had been in flight and didn't get 20 over to the free territory unti1 November 18th. 21 So this statement in which you said that this 22 a11 happened on Ju1y 22nd, not Ju1y 13th, was given 23 on1y four days after you got back into the free 24 territory after wandering around for months; is that 25 right? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2788 Questioned by the Court A. Let me tell you. I arrived on the l8th of 2 November. 3 JUDGE WALD: Right. 4 A. That is true. And when I gave that 5 statement, I was in Tuzla, on free territory. 6 JUDGE WALD: Right, four days later. I was 7 only bringing it up to see if you thought that might be 8 the explanation for why, since you had just been into 9 free territory for four days after wandering around for lO months, your sense of the time might not have been as ll accurate as your later memory. l2 A. I remember giving that statement. That's I3 all. l4 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. l5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you l6 very much, Judge Wald. l7 Witness, I think that was your final l8 statement in a sense. I should like to tell you that l9 we agree with you that regardless of ethnic origin, all 20 people responsible of crimes should be judged, we agree 2l with you. Because the acts committed do not change 22 their horrible nature depending on the ethnicity of the 23 perpetrators. They are always horrendous. 24 Therefore, Witness M, thank you very much for 25 coming and we wish you a safe journey home. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2789 Questioned by the oem 1 A. I wish to thank you too, Your Honours. 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Don't move 3 now because we are going to have a 15-minute break, but 4 before that, I should like to check whether we are 5 having a witness with the same protective measures 6 which means an open hearing, and there are some 7 exhibits to regulate. Exhibit 120 and 121 of the 8 Prosecution and Exhibit D-15 and D-16 of the Defence. 9 Mr. Cayley, perhaps you could cover all the 10 exhibits together, both of the Prosecution and the 11 Defence. I think regarding the Defence exhibits, we 12 have to bear in mind the need to protect the witness. 13 So we would perhaps tender them under seal and have a 14 redacted version open to the public. 15 Mr. Cayley. 16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I agree entirely 17 with you in respect to the Defence exhibits. That's 18 what I would have suggested what you've stated and I 19 would simply apply for admission into evidence Exhibits 20 120 and 121, the exhibits of the Office of the 21 Prosecutor. 22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be 23 seated, Mr. Cayley. 24 Mr. Visnjic, in relation to all these 25 exhibits, please. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2790 Questioned by the Court MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 2 we have no objections regarding the exhibits of the 3 Prosecution. We would just like to observe, to look 4 through the statements. But I see that the name of the 5 witness is indicated in handwriting on the top of the 6 page, so it would be a good idea to scratch those names 7 too. 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So 9 exhibits are admitted bearing in mind the lO confidentiality of the exhibits. That is D-l5 and ll D-l6. We will have a version under seal and another l2 after redaction open to the public. l3 You will bear that in mind, Mr. Dubuisson. l4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. l5 President. l6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And l7 perhaps you could bring the next witness into the l8 courtroom during the break. So we're going to have a l9 l5-minute break now. 20 [The witness withdrew] 2l Recess taken at l.28 22 On resuming at l.46 p.m. 23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 24 afternoon, Witness N. Can you hear me? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2791 Examined by Mr. Harmon JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. 2 Could you please stand up. You will first read the 3 solemn declaration that the usher will give you. 4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly 5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, 6 and nothing but the truth. 7 WITNESS: WITNESS JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be 9 seated now. The representative of the Registry will lO now show you a piece of paper with something written on ll it. It is your name. You will have a look at it and l2 tell us, by saying simply "yes" or if it is l3 indeed your name. I4 THE WITNESS: Yes. l5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it is l6 your name that is written on this piece of paper. I7 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. lS JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope l9 you're comfortable here, Witness. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope 22 you've been well treated by the staff here at the 23 Tribunal. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2792 Examined by Mr. Harmon try to do the same, Witness N. We will be referring to 2 you as Witness during your testimony in order to 3 protect you. You will first answer questions that will 4 be put to you by Mr. Harmon. Thank you for coming to 5 the Tribunal. 6 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor. 7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good 8 a afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon to my 9 colleagues. l0 Examined by Mr. Harmon: ll Q. Witness N, good afternoon. l2 A. Good afternoon. l3 Q. How old are youHave you lived in the municipality of l6 Srebrenica all your life? l7 A. Yes, I have. l8 Q. Are you a Muslim by faith? l9 A. Yes, am. 20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the next two or 2l three questions T'm going to ask the witness could in 22 some way identify him, so if I could go into private 23 session for two or three guestions only. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 25 Mr. Harmon. We will go into private session. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Wltness (Prwate Session) Exammed by Mr Harmon (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) Wednesday 12 Apr1l2000 [Private session] Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2794 Examined by Mr. Harmon 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) 7 [Open session] 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in 9 open session. Mr. Harmon, you may continue. 10 MR. HARMON: Thank you. 11 Q. Witness N, after the Srebrenica enclave -- 12 after Srebrenica became -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- a UN safe area, did you remain in the 15 Bosnian Muslim army or were you released from the army? 16 A. I was released. 1 didn't remain. 17 Q. All right. Now, at the time of the takeover 18 of the enclave by the Bosnian Serb army, were you 19 living -- 20 A. I cannot remember the date. 21 Q. Witness N, let me finish asking my question 22 before you answer, and we will progress very nicely. 23 At the time the enclave was taken over by the Bosnian 24 Serb army, with whom were you living? 25 A. With my wife, my son, my daughter-in-law, a Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2795 Examined by Mr. Harmon child, and a daughter. 2 Q. And did you live approximately l5 kilometers 3 from the town of Srebrenica? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Now, Witness N, I'd like to focus your 6 attention on the of July and ask you to remember 7 back to the of July, and could you tell the Judges 8 what you were doing at the time you learned of the 9 attack on the enclave? lO A. On the of July I was collecting hay, ll together with members of my family. l2 Q. Tell the Judges, if you would, Witness N, how l3 you learned about the attack and what you did in I4 response to that information. l5 A. When I got home, I saw that my neighbours had I6 gathered at one point, that they had taken their l7 belongings, whatever they could carry, and I asked, I8 "What is going on?" And they told me that somebody l9 from the civil defence had come and told them to leave 20 the village. Women, children and the elderly were 2l supposed to go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari, and 22 the able-bodied men were supposed to go wherever they 23 could. 24 Q. Witness N, did you then go to Potocari? 25 A. Yes, I did. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2796 Examined by Mr. Harmon Q. And who accompanied you to Potocari? 2 A. My wife went with me, my daughter, my 3 daughter-in-law, and my grandchild. 4 Q. And how long did it take you to get from your 5 village to Potocari on foot? 6 A. It took us around three hours, over the hills 7 to Potocari. 8 Q. Did you arrive in Potocari in the night-time 9 or in the daytime? lO A. In the night-time I arrived in Potocari. ll Q. Do you remember where you and your family l2 took refuge in Potocari? l3 A. Yes, I do. We took shelter at the Sacmara l4 factory, the bauxite factory, within the compound of l5 the factory. l6 Q. All right, Witness N. Now I'd like to turn l7 your attention to the next day, the l2th of July. And l8 at some point of time on that day did you and did l9 members of your family attempt to board a bus? 20 A. Yes, I did. 2l Q. When you were attempting to board a bus, what 22 happened to you, Witness 23 A. Serb soldiers were standing next to our 24 column, and they grabbed me by the shoulder and they 25 told me, "Come here, old man. Get out of there." Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2797 Examined by Mr. Harmon Q. And what happened to your family? 2 A. My family went in the direction of the buses. 3 Q. Did they, in fact, board a bus and did they, 4 in fact, arrive safely in the free territory? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. Now, where did you go? 7 A. To the left side of the road, and I remained 8 standing there. 9 Q. Were you taken to a particular building after lO you had been separated? ll A. After they had gathered a group of people, l5 l2 to 20 people, Serb soldiers told us that we could no l3 longer stand there, and they told us to go up the hill l4 to a partly finished house. And this is where we l5 went. We entered the ground floor of that unfinished l6 house and sat down, and they stood guard around us. l7 Q. Can you describe how the soldiers who l8 separated you and how the soldiers who guarded you at l9 this location were dressed? 20 A, They were dressed in green camouflage 2l uniform. 22 Q. Witness N, while you were in the building, 23 were there other Muslim men also detained along with 24 you? 25 A. Yes, there were. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2798 Examined by Mr. Harmon Q. Approximately how many were located in the 2 building, in the part of the building where you were 3 being detained? 4 A. About 200. 5 Q. At some point during the period of your 6 detention in that building, did you see General Mladic? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. Tell the Judges about that particular 9 encounter with General Mladic. lO A. One of the Serb soldiers, after quite a few ll of us had gathered there and after we had asked him why l2 we had been separated, told us, don't know. General l3 Mladic is coming now, so you can ask him." I4 I5 I6 l7 by three or lS door of the l9 neighbours, 20 us said yes 2l said, "Well 22 opportunity 23 question: 24 25 And then an officer appeared. He wasn't wearing any hat, any cap. He had balding, receding hair. He emerged from the road and he was accompanied four other Serb soldiers and he came to the house where we were. And he said, "Hello, and he asked us some of us said those who don't to see me." And General, why are if we knew him. Some of no. And then Ratko Mladic know me now have an then I asked him a you separating us from our families?" And he said, have l8O Serbs captured in Tuzla. Your people do not want to release them, so I Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2799 Examined by Mr. Harmon have to have l80 of you so that I could exchange you 2 for them." And then he went back along the same way 3 and we remained sitting there. 4 When night fell, we were ordered by the Serb 5 soldiers who were standing guard around us to take our 6 belongings and to move ahead in front of their 7 soldiers. Those who were sitting outside the house 8 stood up first, and they then went in the direction of 9 Bratunac, across the fields. Those of us who were l0 inside the house followed them, and we covered about ll 200 meters and after that we turned right, to the l2 right, and went along the road leading from Potocari to l3 Bratunac. l4 We got to the road leading to the battery l5 factory, which was in the vicinity of the UNPROFOR l6 base, and two buses stood parked there. And the men l7 who arrived first boarded the last bus, and those who l8 came afterwards boarded the first bus. I got on the l9 first bus, and at that time it was already crowded, and 20 I could see on the right-hand side, on the right side 2l of the bus, I could see General Mladic and several 22 other soldiers around him. 23 When I got on the bus, I saw a red car ahead 24 of the bus, and after everybody had got on the bus, a 25 Serb soldier entered the bus and he went to the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2800 Examined by Mr. Harmon driver. And he was standing there and carrying an 2 automatic rifle. General Mladic approached the bus and 3 he told the driver to shut the door and to follow the 4 red car. The driver shut the door of the busfollowed it. And this is how we 6 reached Bratunac. After that we went in the direction 7 of Kravica. 8 Q. Let me interrupt you there for a minute, 9 Witness N. How many men were in the bus along with l0 you? ll A. As many as they could put on the bus, because l2 we were being told to move backwards to the bus, and l3 this is how we got in. We were all cramped in that l4 bus. l5 Q. Was there a guard on the bus that accompanied l6 you in the direction of Bratunac? l7 A. Yes. There was a soldier who was armed with l8 an automatic rifle. It was a Serb soldier. l9 Q. Do you remember how that soldier was dressed? 20 A. In camouflage uniform. 2l Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform? 22 A. Green and dark green. 23 Q. Now, where did you go in that bus? 24 A. We went to Bratunac. 25 Q. And do you know -- did you stop in Bratunac? Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2801 Examined by Mr. Harmon A. Yes, we did. 2 Q. Did you recognise the location where you had 3 stopped? 4 A. I recognised the location after we had passed 5 by a school building. After that we stopped in front 6 of an abandoned warehouse. 7 Q. What happened when you stopped in front of 8 that abandoned warehouse? 9 A. We found a group of Serb soldiers there, and lO one of them approached the bus, the driver opened the ll door of the bus, and he ordered told us to march in front of the Serb soldiers. l3 They had made a column, and we were marching in front l4 of them, and this is how we entered the warehouse. l5 Q. Approximately how many Serb soldiers were l6 waiting for the arrival of your bus? l7 A. Between lO and 15. l8 Q. Do you have any recollection as to how those l9 soldiers were dressed? 20 AJ They were dressed in camouflage uniforms as 21 well. 22 Q. Do you remember the colour, or were you able 23 to distinguish the colour of those uniforms? 24 A. Again, green and dark green camouflage 25 uniforms. This is how we called them: camouflage Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2802 Examined by Mr. Harmon uniformsthe men who were on 3 the bus in which you travelled get off the bus and go 4 into the warehouse? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. And what did you do when you got inside the 7 warehouse building? 8 A. We sat down. 9 Q. What kind of a room was it that you sat down l0 in? ll A. It was off-white in colour. It had not been l2 properly maintained, that warehouse. l3 Q. Do you remember the approximate dimensions of l4 the room where you and the other men sat down? l5 A. I think that it was about l5 meters long and l6 7 to 8 meters wide. l7 Q. Now, after you and the men from your bus l8 entered that room in the warehouse, did other Muslim l9 men continue to arrive and fill the room? 20 AJ Yes, they did. 2l Q. Can you describe eventually how full that 22 room was with Muslim men? 23 A. After the last group had been brought in, we 24 were ordered to stand up and to move to the back, so 25 that the last group who was outside could also get in. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness; Witness (Open Session) Page 2803 Examined by Mr. Harmon So we moved to the back as far as we could, and then 2 the last group entered the warehouse and then we were 3 ordered to sit down. But there was no longer enough 4 room for everyone to sit down, so somebody -- some 5 people sat down and others sat on their laps. 6 Q. Witness N, do you remember approximately what 7 time of the evening it was when you arrived at this 8 particular warehouse on the l2th of July? 9 A. It could have been about l0.00 at night. lO Q. Now, could you tell the Judges your ll experiences that you had and what you observed l2 happening to the other Muslim men who were in that room l3 that particular night and the early morning hours that l4 followed? l5 A. When we entered, there wasn't enough room, l6 and we complained that we would suffocate. And then l7 the Serb soldiers shot over our heads and shouted, l8 "Keep silent or we'll kill you all," and then we fell l9 silent. Then someone in the area where we had entered 20 said, "You l2 have to carry out the assignment given to 2l you. Do you understand that?" And he was speaking in 22 a sharp tone. And then a group said, "Yes, sir," as 23 one. And then Serb soldiers came with flashlights and 24 they lighted us up. And then they asked where people 25 were from, the people from Glogova, people from Cerska, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness; Witness (Open Session) Page 2304 Examined by Mr. Harmon people from Bratunac, and people answered. And then 2 they said, "The people from Glogova get up." One man 3 got up. The Serb soldiers said, "Come out here." He 4 left the warehouse to the left, the direction through 5 which we had entered the warehouse. We could hear 6 blunt blows and his screams and moans. When all this 7 stopped, again they came back with their flashlights, 8 calling out people from various places. Nobody 9 admitted to being from those places, so then the lO flashlight was pointed at anyone at random, and that ll person had to get up and go out. That is how they l2 continued to kill people. l3 Sometimes they would bring somebody back, l4 badly beaten up, carrying them by the arms. They l5 brought them to the doorway, and then a third one would l6 push him into the room, and then the people were l7 carrying -- that would carry this person from one hand l8 to another. And this went on until the morning. l9 In the morning they stopped taking people 20 out. The people holding the dead complained that they 2l couldn't stand it any longer, and they wanted to have 22 them carried out. And so they allowed it and they let 23 the people take out the dead bodies. Two people would 24 take out the body and carry it outside the hall, behind 25 the warehouse. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2805 Examined by Mr. Harmon Q. Witness, let me stop you right there and ask 2 you some questions, some additional questions about 3 that particular night in the early morning hours. Were 4 you able to hear the soldiers who were guarding you 5 talk amongst themselves? 6 A. I was. They introduced themselves. They 7 asked us, "Do you know who we are, whose soldiers we 8 are?" We kept quiet; we didn't reply. And then they 9 would hit each other on the soldier and say, "This one lO is an Arkanovac," and he would say yes. And then ll another one would say he belonged to the wolves, Drina l2 Wolves, and he would say yes. l3 Q. Now, during the night, in the early morning l4 hours of the following morning, were you given any l5 food? Were you given any water? l6 A. When they carried out the dead, we heard two l7 trucks approaching the warehouse. We thought that they l8 would be transporting us somewhere; however, a Serb l9 soldier came to the doorway and said, need lO 20 volunteers, hard-working ones and younger ones, to do 2l something for us." We knew immediately that they would 22 be loading the bodies. 23 Q. Now, Witness N, let me just ask you to answer 24 the question that I ask, and that is: Did you receive 25 any water or did you receive any food the night of the Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2806 Examined by Mr. Harmon l2th and the morning hours of the l3th? 2 A. We didn't receive anything until the 3 morning. 4 Q. Now, interrupted you, and you were telling 5 us about ten men who had been taken out. Would you 6 please continue with your observations and what you 7 recall about that incident. 8 A. Then they picked ten men, pointing them out 9 with their fingers. Ten of them went out. There was lO silence for a while. While we could hear those motor ll vehicles departing from the warehouse, these ten men of l2 ours never reappeared amongst us again. l3 Q. Were toilet facilities available to you and l4 the other men who were being detained in the warehouse? l5 A. Then they allowed us to go to the toilet and l6 they showed us, as you go out of the warehouse, on the l7 right-hand side, there was a room to be used as a l8 toilet. So we went out, and I went out too. l9 As I was coming from the toilet, I saw them 20 taking one out of the line of men and taking him to the 2l left. I saw two men standing on the left-hand side. 22 There were Serb soldiers, two on the left, three on the 23 right, and there was one facing the warehouse with an 24 automatic rifle in his hand and shouting, "Come to me." 25 And as he went toward him, he had stopped for a Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2807 Examined by Mr. Harmon while, and this one kept saying, "Come here." 2 And then on the left hand, the soldier 3 standing to the left hit him with an iron rod on the 4 head. And the Serb soldier standing on the right had 5 hatchet, and hit him on the back with the blade of the 6 hatchet. 7 I entered the big room, but they continued 8 taking men out and killing them. And this went on 9 until the afternoon. l0 Q. Now, when you say "they took men out" and ll continued killing them, to whom are you referring? l2 A. Serb soldiers. I mean Serb soldiers. l3 Q. Were they dressed in the same fashion that l4 you've described earlier or were they dressed in a l5 different fashion? l6 A. They were dressed in the same fashion. l7 Q. Now, what time in the afternoon of the l3th lS did the killing stop? l9 A. About 4.00 in the afternoon, about l600 20 hours. 2l Q. What happened then? 22 AJ Then, again, we heard two motor vehicles 23 approaching the warehouse. Again, one of the Serb 24 soldiers asked for ten men to go out to do something 25 for them. Nobody volunteered, so he selected ten men, 8. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness; Witness (Open Session) Page 2308 Examined by Mr. Harmon who went out. 2 There was silence for a while, and then again 3 we heard the engines being turned on and the vehicles 4 going away. Those ten men never returned to the 5 warehouse either. 6 Q. What happened then, Witness 7 A. Then they stopped killing and they said 8 General Mladic is coming now. And he appeared in the 9 doorway, a general of the Serb army, Ratko Mladic. We lO asked him, "Why are you keeping us here? Why are you ll choking us here? Why don't you take us some place?" l2 He said, haven't managed to negotiate your l3 exchange earlier. We have agreed now, and you will all l4 be exchanged and you're going to Kalesija to be l5 exchanged. But let one of your men count how many you l6 are so that can determine how many buses I need." l7 One of our men got up, and when he counted l8 us, he said to Ratko Mladic that there were 296 of us. l9 He said, "Sit down and vehicles will be 20 coming to transport you to Kalesija." 2l Q. Now there were 296 men reported to be in the 22 room, in the warehouse where you were located? 23 A. Yes, yes. 24 Q. To your knowledge, were there other Muslim 25 men located in other parts of the warehouse, if you Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2809 Examined by Mr. Harmon know? 2 A. When they came back, those of them who had 3 taken the dead out of the warehouse, they came back in 4 tears. We asked them, "What's wrong?" And they said, 5 "It's not only that they're killing here, but they're 6 killing somewhere else. They're bringing our men; our 7 men are bringing them and putting them on the same 8 pile." 9 I heard this from the man who had taken out lO the dead bodies from our warehouse. ll Q. And when you say the men who had taken out l2 the dead bodies from your warehouse room, you're l3 talking about the five dead Muslims who had been -- l4 A. Yes, yes, the five dead Muslims that ten of l5 our men carried out. l6 Q. And so what is your conclusion, Witness N, l7 based on the Conversations that you had with the men l8 who had taken out the dead and returned? ls it your l9 conclusion that there were other Muslim men being 20 detained in the same warehouse but at different parts 2l of the warehouse? 22 AJ That was our conclusion, that somewhere in 23 the immediate vicinity there must have been other 24 Muslim men that were being killed. 25 Q. Now, at some point in time on the l3th, did Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2810 Examined by Mr. Harmon some buses and trucks arrive at the warehouse to 2 transport you and other Muslim men to another location? 3 A. Yes. Six buses arrived and then the Serb 4 soldiers gave orders that we should get up and form a 5 line one by one, because vehicles had come to transport 6 us. We got up. 7 When I got out, I saw six buses standing in 8 the immediate vicinity. I could recognise Bauxite 9 Milici and Centrotrans Sarajevo; those were the lO markings on the buses. I didn't recognise the other ll markings. l2 Q. Now, you say Bauxite Milici. Is Milici down l3 in the Srebrenica municipality or in a different l4 municipality? l5 A. It is a small town within the territory of l6 Vlasenica municipality. l7 Q. And I believe you also said there was another l8 location, another mark on the bus that you noticed. l9 What was the other mark that you noticed? 20 AJ Centrotrans, from Sarajevo. 21 Q. All right. Now, do you know the approximate 22 time that these buses arrived on the l3th? 23 A. It was an hour before nightfallthose buses? 25 A. I did. I got on to a bus with Centrotrans Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2811 Examined by Mr. Harmon Sarajevo written on it. 2 Q. How many men besides yourself got on this 3 Centrotrans bus? 4 A. There were quite a number standing who didn't 5 have enough seats to sit down, but I didn't count them. 6 Q. So all the seats were filled on the bus and 7 there were people standing in the aisle; is that 8 correct? 9 A. Yes, yes. l0 Q. Now, of the 296 men who were in the room of ll the warehouse where you were located, were you able to l2 estimate the ages, the range of ages of the men who l3 were in that room? l4 A. They were up to 60 and some were over 60. l5 There was some who could hardly move with a stick. l6 Q. Do you have an estimate as to the youngest l7 person in the room, in your room? l8 A. When we were coming out of the room into the l9 bus, I didn't see any young people. 20 Q. Now, did you leave Bratunac? 21 A. We did. 22 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have 23 Prosecutor's Exhibit l/E/l placed on the ELMO. 24 Q. I'm going to ask you to indicate on this map, 25 Witness N, for the benefit of the Judges, the direction Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2812 Examined by Mr. Harmon that you travelled after you left Bratunac. There is a 2 pointer -- there should be a pointer in front of you. 3 Do you see the town of Bratunac? 4 A. Yes, I do. I do. I see it. Here it is 5 [indicates]. 6 Q. Could you use your pointer and show the 7 Judges your route of travel after you left Bratunac. 8 A. From Bratunac, we went towards Serbia 9 [indicates]. We reached the Drina River. There's a l0 bridge leading to Serbia. We didn't cross that ll bridge. So we went to the left, towards Zvornik l2 [indicates]. We reached Zvornik, and then we went on l3 to Karakaj. When we got to Karakaj, we turned left, l4 when we got to a school and a large hall attached to l5 the school. I6 Q. Now, let me stop you there for just a minute, l7 Witness N. l8 MR. HARMON: For the record, on Prosecutor's l9 Exhibit l/E/l, the witness pointed to a road that goes 20 from Bratunac toward the Drina River, in a direction to 21 the right side of the exhibit, and then follows the 22 course of the river up through Zvornik to a town which 23 is marked on the map, called Karakaj. Then the witness 24 indicated that the bus turned left on a road that is 25 marked, and there's a town on that which I, Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2813 Examined by Mr. Harmon unfortunately, can't read off of the ELMO, but it looks 2 to me like it begins with the letter 3 Q. Witness looks like 4 Petkovci, so that is -- 5 A. Petkovei. 6 Q. -- the route that the witness travelled. 7 Thank you, Witness N. 8 MR. HARMON: l'm finished with that 9 exhibit. lO Q. How long did it take you from the time you ll left Bratunac to the time you got to this destination l2 up near Petkovci, near this school? l3 A. Five hours. l4 Q. Were there interruptions along the journey, l5 along the route? l6 A. Yes, there were several breaks. l7 Q. Do you know -- strike that. Were you able to l8 look around in your bus and see how many vehicles in l9 your convoy were going north towards Zvornik? 20 A, No, I could only see the bus in front of me. 21 Q. Now, on your bus, was there a guard or more 22 than one guard? 23 A. There were; one, only one guard, armed with 24 an automatic rifle, wearing a camouflage uniform. 25 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Did you see any Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2814 Examined by Mr. Harmon other buses that -- strike that. The vehicle that you 2 saw in front of youtruck? 3 A. A bus. 4 Q. Were you able to see whether that bus was -- 5 how many people were in that bus? 6 A. One could see through the windows that there 7 was a whole line of people standing in the aisle, that 8 there wasn't enough room for everyone to sit down. 9 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have that Exhibit lO l/E/l placed back on the ELMO, please, because I may ll have indicated incorrectly the direction. l2 Q. What I'd like you to do, please, Witness N, l3 again take that pointer and -- take your pointer and l4 could you tell me when you got to the town of Karakaj. l5 There appear on that diagram to be two roads; one below l6 the town of Karakaj and one directly above the town of l7 Karakaj. l8 Do you know which of those two roads you took l9 or do you merely recall turning left near the town of 20 Karakaj? 21 A. I just remember that we turned left. It was 22 night-time, and the windows of the buses were not very 23 clean, so one couldn't know, and I'm not very familiar 24 with the area either. 25 MR. HARMON: Thank you, very much. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2815 Examined by Mr. Harmon Mr. President, we normally break at this time. I'm 2 prepared to continue or to take a break at this time. 3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I 4 think we need to adjourn. It is time. Shall we 5 adjourn. 6 Yes, Mr. Visnjic, you have something to say? 7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 8 it is not linked to this witness, but if you have 9 decided that we should adjourn -- but reviewing the lO transcript on page 94 line 7, the last answer given by ll the previous witness, Witness M, and his last answer to l2 Judge Wald's question. l3 I think during the translation, and I must l4 say that we all found the witness rather hard to l5 follow, I think that during the translation, an error l6 was made, so that the answer of that witness differs l7 from the meaning in the transcript. l8 I intervened with the interpreters, and they l9 will probably be correcting the transcript. So I wish 20 to make this formal objection so that it shall be 21 registered. 22 [Trial Chamber confers] 23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 24 Mr. Visnjic, thank you very much for drawing our 25 attention to this problem. What we are going to do is Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2816 Examined by Mr. Harmon that we are going to send the audio and visual tape to 2 the translation section. The translation section will 3 check, and if the translation is not correct, doesn't 4 correspond to the original, then the transcript will be 5 corrected. 6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very 7 much, Your Honour. 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 9 too. lO Before adjourning, Mr. Harmon, in order to ll see how we are going to work until the end of the week, l2 where do we stand in relation to the witnesses here l3 present in The Hague. Are we going to have a chance to I4 hear them? Are we running the risk of leaving a l5 witness from the end of the week until I don't know I6 when we meet again. So could you give us some l7 information, Mr. Harmon? I8 MR. HARMON: We anticipate completing the l9 testimonies of the witnesses, of all of the witnesses 20 who are here at The Hague, by Friday. In fact, we may 21 end up short of time in which case, we are prepared to 22 present different types of evidence to the Chamber to 23 complete the trial day. 24 We have three witnesses remaining. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2817 Examined by Mr. Harmon What I would like to avoid is to have witnesses whom we 2 have to send back because we can't hear them or to have 3 a witness who would have to be half finished. 4 As it is 2.30, if you have other evidence in 5 addition to witnesses, it would be a good idea to 6 present that evidence to make use of the time. 7 As you know, we have a Status Conference 8 tomorrow at quarter past two. Perhaps I need to warn 9 the interpreters that we may be working a quarter of an l0 hour longer tomorrow. That's enough for today. ll Witness N, you will stay here. We will be l2 continuing your testimony tomorrow. I hope you will l3 have a restful evening. l4 A. Thank you Your Honour. l5 Whereupon the hearing adjourned l6 at 2.33 to be reconvened on l7 Thursday, the l3w day of April, 2000, l8 at 9.30 a.Wednesday, 12 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T