Witness J Testimony

Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2453 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Monday, 10m April 2000 2 [Open session] 3 [The witness entered court] 4 Upon com encing at 9.35 a.m. 5 [The accused entered court] 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, 8 technicians; good morning, interpreters. I can see 9 that they are there. Good morning to our assistants, 10 representatives of the Registrar. Good morning, 11 counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence. Good 12 morning, General Krstic. 13 Good morning, Witness J. Have you had a good 14 rest? 15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, 16 Your Honour. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you 18 have a nice weekend here in The Hague? 19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was 20 good. Thank you. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me just 22 remind you, Witness, that you are still under oath, and 23 you will continue answering questions that will be put 24 to you by Mr. Cayley, whom you know already. 25 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2453 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Monday, 10m April 2000 2 [Open session] 3 [The witness entered court] 4 Upon com encing at 9.35 a.m. 5 [The accused entered court] 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, 8 technicians; good morning, interpreters. I can see 9 that they are there. Good morning to our assistants, 10 representatives of the Registrar. Good morning, 11 counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence. Good 12 morning, General Krstic. 13 Good morning, Witness J. Have you had a good 14 rest? 15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, 16 Your Honour. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you 18 have a nice weekend here in The Hague? 19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was 20 good. Thank you. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me just 22 remind you, Witness, that you are still under oath, and 23 you will continue answering questions that will be put 24 to you by Mr. Cayley, whom you know already. 25 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2454 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President, 2 Your Honours, counsel. 3 WITNESS: WITNESS [Resumed] 4 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd] 5 Q. Good morning, Witness J. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. Now, Witness J, I'm just going to refresh 8 your memory as to where we were on Friday and what you 9 said to the Judges -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- so that I can give you the point in time 12 which we reached in your testimony. 13 Now, you explained to the Judges that on the 14 12th of July of 1995 you found yourself in a meadow, in 15 a place called Lolici. Do you recall that? 16 A. No, we were not there on the 12th, we were in 17 Lolici on the 13th. And on the 12th we were still in 18 Jaglici. 19 Q. Yes, you're quite right, Witness. Thank you 20 for correcting me. And I think you explained to the 21 Judges that the Bosnian Serb soldiers searched you for 22 money; do you recall that? 23 A. Yes, they did. 24 Q. And I think you also said to the Judges that 25 you heard someone whisper in front of you that there Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2454 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President, 2 Your Honours, counsel. 3 WITNESS: WITNESS [Resumed] 4 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd] 5 Q. Good morning, Witness J. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. Now, Witness J, I'm just going to refresh 8 your memory as to where we were on Friday and what you 9 said to the Judges -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- so that I can give you the point in time 12 which we reached in your testimony. 13 Now, you explained to the Judges that on the 14 12th of July of 1995 you found yourself in a meadow, in 15 a place called Lolici. Do you recall that? 16 A. No, we were not there on the 12th, we were in 17 Lolici on the 13th. And on the 12th we were still in 18 Jaglici. 19 Q. Yes, you're quite right, Witness. Thank you 20 for correcting me. And I think you explained to the 21 Judges that the Bosnian Serb soldiers searched you for 22 money; do you recall that? 23 A. Yes, they did. 24 Q. And I think you also said to the Judges that 25 you heard someone whisper in front of you that there Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2455 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 were about 2.000 Muslim men on the meadow; do you 2 recall that? 3 A. Yes. Yes, I do. 4 Q. I think we got to a point in time when you 5 explained that water was brought front of you complained that he had not had any water, 7 and then a soldier beat him and then shot him. 8 A. Yes, and he killed him. The soldier killed 9 the civilian who had asked for water. He said that 10 somebody had had water two times already and that he 11 hadn't had any water so far, so two soldiers kicked 12 him; one kicked him on the left side of his head, the 13 other on the right side, and he started bleeding from 14 his mouth. So one of them then grabbed him by the neck 15 and the other took him as well, and they dragged him 16 away some six metres and they shot him, and he remained 17 there, lying dead. 18 Q. Now, I think the next thing that happened to 19 you is some Bosnian Serb soldiers recognised a Muslim 20 police officer amongst you; do you recall that? 21 A. Yes, I recall that. They recognised a 22 policeman who was a neighbour of mine, who used to work 23 in Vlasenica during peacetime. So they pointed their 24 finger at him and one of them called him out. He 25 addressed him by his last name and he told him, "Come Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2455 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 were about 2.000 Muslim men on the meadow; do you 2 recall that? 3 A. Yes. Yes, I do. 4 Q. I think we got to a point in time when you 5 explained that water was brought front of you complained that he had not had any water, 7 and then a soldier beat him and then shot him. 8 A. Yes, and he killed him. The soldier killed 9 the civilian who had asked for water. He said that 10 somebody had had water two times already and that he 11 hadn't had any water so far, so two soldiers kicked 12 him; one kicked him on the left side of his head, the 13 other on the right side, and he started bleeding from 14 his mouth. So one of them then grabbed him by the neck 15 and the other took him as well, and they dragged him 16 away some six metres and they shot him, and he remained 17 there, lying dead. 18 Q. Now, I think the next thing that happened to 19 you is some Bosnian Serb soldiers recognised a Muslim 20 police officer amongst you; do you recall that? 21 A. Yes, I recall that. They recognised a 22 policeman who was a neighbour of mine, who used to work 23 in Vlasenica during peacetime. So they pointed their 24 finger at him and one of them called him out. He 25 addressed him by his last name and he told him, "Come Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2456 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 here." So he came up and five or six soldiers gathered 2 around him, they said hello to him, all of them, and I 3 was glad to see that because I thought, well, here's 4 someone who knows us, so they might help us. 5 But they took him away to a house that was 6 situated on the left-hand side, and they stayed there 7 for about one hour, one hour and a half, and after 8 that, three of them came back with him. And they stood 9 next to us, on the left side, and he called his brother 10 and he said, "Give me your jacket," so he did and they 11 asked him, "Who is this guy here?" and he said, "This 12 is my brother." And then he turned around and he 13 called his second brother. So they left again, they 14 went in the right direction, towards the house where 15 the wounded were, and I don't know what happened to 16 them. I didn't hear shots but I never saw them again. 17 Q. Now, Witness, these three men, they were 18 taken away by Bosnian Serb soldiers. 19 A. Yes, the soldiers, and ever since then we 20 haven't heard of them. 21 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were 22 taken to the house where the wounded were. Who was 23 wounded? 24 A. Above the house, behind the house where the 25 wounded were. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2456 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 here." So he came up and five or six soldiers gathered 2 around him, they said hello to him, all of them, and I 3 was glad to see that because I thought, well, here's 4 someone who knows us, so they might help us. 5 But they took him away to a house that was 6 situated on the left-hand side, and they stayed there 7 for about one hour, one hour and a half, and after 8 that, three of them came back with him. And they stood 9 next to us, on the left side, and he called his brother 10 and he said, "Give me your jacket," so he did and they 11 asked him, "Who is this guy here?" and he said, "This 12 is my brother." And then he turned around and he 13 called his second brother. So they left again, they 14 went in the right direction, towards the house where 15 the wounded were, and I don't know what happened to 16 them. I didn't hear shots but I never saw them again. 17 Q. Now, Witness, these three men, they were 18 taken away by Bosnian Serb soldiers. 19 A. Yes, the soldiers, and ever since then we 20 haven't heard of them. 21 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were 22 taken to the house where the wounded were. Who was 23 wounded? 24 A. Above the house, behind the house where the 25 wounded were. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2457 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 JUDGE RIAD: There were wounded people behind 2 the house? 3 A. The wounded were in the house, and the three 4 brothers were taken above the house, to the right-hand 5 side, and I haven't heard of them ever since. 6 MR. CAYLEY: 7 Q. Witness, were there Muslim wounded in the 8 house to which the three brothers were taken? 9 A. Yes, there were wounded in the house. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour Judge Riad, does 11 that answer your question? 12 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Thank you very much. 13 MR. CAYLEY: 14 Q. Now, Witness, there was a road that ran in 15 front of the meadow where you were sitting. Do you 16 recall -- 17 A. Yes, an asphalt road. 18 Q. Do you recall at any time seeing buses or 19 trucks on that road? 20 A. Both buses and trucks were passing and they 21 were travelling from Potocari towards Milici. They 22 were transporting civilians from Potocari. 23 Q. Did you see the people on those buses and 24 trucks? 25 A. Yes, there were people, including women and Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2457 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 JUDGE RIAD: There were wounded people behind 2 the house? 3 A. The wounded were in the house, and the three 4 brothers were taken above the house, to the right-hand 5 side, and I haven't heard of them ever since. 6 MR. CAYLEY: 7 Q. Witness, were there Muslim wounded in the 8 house to which the three brothers were taken? 9 A. Yes, there were wounded in the house. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour Judge Riad, does 11 that answer your question? 12 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Thank you very much. 13 MR. CAYLEY: 14 Q. Now, Witness, there was a road that ran in 15 front of the meadow where you were sitting. Do you 16 recall -- 17 A. Yes, an asphalt road. 18 Q. Do you recall at any time seeing buses or 19 trucks on that road? 20 A. Both buses and trucks were passing and they 21 were travelling from Potocari towards Milici. They 22 were transporting civilians from Potocari. 23 Q. Did you see the people on those buses and 24 trucks? 25 A. Yes, there were people, including women and Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2458 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 children. 2 Q. Did you recognise them as your people? 3 A. I couldn't recognise anyone. I wasn't really 4 watching. I kept my head down because I kept thinking 5 only about my fate. 6 Q. Now, while you were in Lolici, I think the 7 Bosnian Serb soldiers asked for 30 volunteers from the 8 men. Do you recall that? 9 A. Yes, I recall that. They came to us and they 10 said that they needed about 30 young men, aged 11 approximately 25. So 30 of them came out and they 12 boarded a truck. They gave them some shovels and the 13 truck left. I don't know what happened to them. I 14 don't know where they were taken, but any trace of them 15 was lost. 16 Q. I think there came a time when a VRS officer 17 came to the meadow, do you remember that, and gave 18 assurances that everything would be all right. 19 A. First they searched us, looking for money, 20 asking for money. And there was one person whom they 21 addressed as Madzarevic, and Madzarevic -- people were 22 from Visnjica. One of them had blonde hair and a 23 ponytail, and he had some kind of black bandanna on his 24 head. So they searched us and they took six marks from 25 me and -- 600 marks and some necklaces that belonged to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2458 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 children. 2 Q. Did you recognise them as your people? 3 A. I couldn't recognise anyone. I wasn't really 4 watching. I kept my head down because I kept thinking 5 only about my fate. 6 Q. Now, while you were in Lolici, I think the 7 Bosnian Serb soldiers asked for 30 volunteers from the 8 men. Do you recall that? 9 A. Yes, I recall that. They came to us and they 10 said that they needed about 30 young men, aged 11 approximately 25. So 30 of them came out and they 12 boarded a truck. They gave them some shovels and the 13 truck left. I don't know what happened to them. I 14 don't know where they were taken, but any trace of them 15 was lost. 16 Q. I think there came a time when a VRS officer 17 came to the meadow, do you remember that, and gave 18 assurances that everything would be all right. 19 A. First they searched us, looking for money, 20 asking for money. And there was one person whom they 21 addressed as Madzarevic, and Madzarevic -- people were 22 from Visnjica. One of them had blonde hair and a 23 ponytail, and he had some kind of black bandanna on his 24 head. So they searched us and they took six marks from 25 me and -- 600 marks and some necklaces that belonged to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2459 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 my daughter. 2 And then Mladic came and he spoke to us. The 3 first thing he said was, "Isn't this better than to get 4 killed? Naser has abandoned you. He fled to Tuzla. 5 It is not a very good idea to wage war with Serbs. We 6 have almost evacuated all of our families and they have 7 been put up in Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice, and most 8 probably within a day or two you will be exchanged as 9 well. Everyone will find his family. Nobody is going 10 to beat you. Nobody is going to provoke you. You will 11 be given food and you're very hot here so we will find 12 you some shade." 13 So everybody applauded, saying "Thank you, 14 sir. Thank you, General." He kind of encouraged us. 15 But I wanted to speak to him and he said, "What's the 16 problem?" I said, "General, you see I'm barefoot, I've 17 lost my boots. I have a pair of shoes in my backpack. 18 Can I go and get them?" And then he told me, "You will 19 get a pair of shoes." And then I said, "Thank you, 20 General." And then he left. 21 Then 15 -- 20 minutes later, the one who was 22 wearing a civilian uniform, without any insignia, he 23 said -- he told us to make a column by four. So the 24 one who had given this order was a few metres away from 25 us. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2459 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 my daughter. 2 And then Mladic came and he spoke to us. The 3 first thing he said was, "Isn't this better than to get 4 killed? Naser has abandoned you. He fled to Tuzla. 5 It is not a very good idea to wage war with Serbs. We 6 have almost evacuated all of our families and they have 7 been put up in Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice, and most 8 probably within a day or two you will be exchanged as 9 well. Everyone will find his family. Nobody is going 10 to beat you. Nobody is going to provoke you. You will 11 be given food and you're very hot here so we will find 12 you some shade." 13 So everybody applauded, saying "Thank you, 14 sir. Thank you, General." He kind of encouraged us. 15 But I wanted to speak to him and he said, "What's the 16 problem?" I said, "General, you see I'm barefoot, I've 17 lost my boots. I have a pair of shoes in my backpack. 18 Can I go and get them?" And then he told me, "You will 19 get a pair of shoes." And then I said, "Thank you, 20 General." And then he left. 21 Then 15 -- 20 minutes later, the one who was 22 wearing a civilian uniform, without any insignia, he 23 said -- he told us to make a column by four. So the 24 one who had given this order was a few metres away from 25 us. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2460 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. If I could interrupt you just to clarify one 2 thing. Did Mladic say to you that your families had 3 been evacuated to Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Thank you. Now, you then said 30 minutes 6 later you were instructed to -- 7 A. Between 20 and 30 minutes later. 8 Q. -- you were instructed to make a column for 4 9 by 4. Can you tell the Judges once you formed that 10 column where you went? 11 A. I didn't know the area. When I -- after I 12 had come out with the person who had been with me in 13 the warehouse, he told me that we were somewhere near 14 Kravica. They brought us to a warehouse and both sides 15 of the column, there would be a Serb soldiers every six 16 metres armed with automatic rifles. They had 17 ammunition belts across their chests, and they were 18 marching us a warehouse where a bus was parked just 19 outside the warehouse. And I entered the warehouse 20 through the second door, not the first one. 21 So the warehouse was completely full, and I 22 found a seat in one of the corners of the warehouse. 23 And the soldier who was standing at the right side of 24 the warehouse, he cursed at me and he told me to sit 25 down. And I told him that I wanted to stand, to lean Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2460 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. If I could interrupt you just to clarify one 2 thing. Did Mladic say to you that your families had 3 been evacuated to Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Thank you. Now, you then said 30 minutes 6 later you were instructed to -- 7 A. Between 20 and 30 minutes later. 8 Q. -- you were instructed to make a column for 4 9 by 4. Can you tell the Judges once you formed that 10 column where you went? 11 A. I didn't know the area. When I -- after I 12 had come out with the person who had been with me in 13 the warehouse, he told me that we were somewhere near 14 Kravica. They brought us to a warehouse and both sides 15 of the column, there would be a Serb soldiers every six 16 metres armed with automatic rifles. They had 17 ammunition belts across their chests, and they were 18 marching us a warehouse where a bus was parked just 19 outside the warehouse. And I entered the warehouse 20 through the second door, not the first one. 21 So the warehouse was completely full, and I 22 found a seat in one of the corners of the warehouse. 23 And the soldier who was standing at the right side of 24 the warehouse, he cursed at me and he told me to sit 25 down. And I told him that I wanted to stand, to lean Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2461 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 against the wall because I had back pain. And this is 2 how I sat down in that warehouse. 3 Q. Witness, before we move to the next part of 4 your testimony. 5 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. 7 Q. The column of men that you described to the 8 Judges, do you recall how long that column was? 9 A. According to my estimate, because I could see 10 it when we turned around the curve, I was somewhere in 11 the middle of the column. I think that the column was 12 between 400 and 500 metres long. I couldn't tell the 13 exact number, but this is according to my estimate. 14 Because we were all terrified. We didn't know what was 15 going to happen to us. 16 Q. I understand that, Witness. When you entered 17 the warehouse, how full was it with Muslim men. Do you 18 recall? 19 A. The warehouse was completely full. If you 20 had thrown a lighter or a match inside, it would have 21 stayed on somebody's shoulder or in somebody's lap, it 22 couldn't have fallen on the ground. 23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could first of 24 all put the photograph in front of the witness and let 25 the witness look at it. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2461 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 against the wall because I had back pain. And this is 2 how I sat down in that warehouse. 3 Q. Witness, before we move to the next part of 4 your testimony. 5 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. 7 Q. The column of men that you described to the 8 Judges, do you recall how long that column was? 9 A. According to my estimate, because I could see 10 it when we turned around the curve, I was somewhere in 11 the middle of the column. I think that the column was 12 between 400 and 500 metres long. I couldn't tell the 13 exact number, but this is according to my estimate. 14 Because we were all terrified. We didn't know what was 15 going to happen to us. 16 Q. I understand that, Witness. When you entered 17 the warehouse, how full was it with Muslim men. Do you 18 recall? 19 A. The warehouse was completely full. If you 20 had thrown a lighter or a match inside, it would have 21 stayed on somebody's shoulder or in somebody's lap, it 22 couldn't have fallen on the ground. 23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could first of 24 all put the photograph in front of the witness and let 25 the witness look at it. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2462 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. Now, Witness, I've shown you this photograph? 2 A. This is the first door, the first entrance 3 and this is the second one [indicates]. And this is 4 where I entered through the second one, and this is 5 where I got out, through this door. 6 The truck, the excavator was there when I got 7 out the night between Thursday and Friday. 8 Q. Witness, if you could stop for a moment. 9 MR. CAYLEY: And Mr. Usher, if you could 10 place the photograph on to the ELMO. 11 Q. Witness, what I want you to do now, I don't 12 want you to speak, I just want you to point to the door 13 in the warehouse through which you entered, and you can 14 use the pointer. 15 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could give the 16 witness the pointer. 17 A. It is through this door that I entered 18 [indicates]. 19 Q. Witness, you'll need to point on the 20 photograph. Can you see which door? 21 A. This door here [indicates]. 22 Q. If you could keep the pointer on that door. 23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could help 24 the witness. 25 Let the record show that the witness is Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2462 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. Now, Witness, I've shown you this photograph? 2 A. This is the first door, the first entrance 3 and this is the second one [indicates]. And this is 4 where I entered through the second one, and this is 5 where I got out, through this door. 6 The truck, the excavator was there when I got 7 out the night between Thursday and Friday. 8 Q. Witness, if you could stop for a moment. 9 MR. CAYLEY: And Mr. Usher, if you could 10 place the photograph on to the ELMO. 11 Q. Witness, what I want you to do now, I don't 12 want you to speak, I just want you to point to the door 13 in the warehouse through which you entered, and you can 14 use the pointer. 15 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could give the 16 witness the pointer. 17 A. It is through this door that I entered 18 [indicates]. 19 Q. Witness, you'll need to point on the 20 photograph. Can you see which door? 21 A. This door here [indicates]. 22 Q. If you could keep the pointer on that door. 23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could help 24 the witness. 25 Let the record show that the witness is Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2463 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 indicating a small door on the right-hand side of the 2 photograph. It's a small door with some writing above 3 it and it's the last door on the extreme right hand of 4 the photograph. 5 Q. And that's the warehouse, is it, Witness, 6 which you entered? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. Usher. 9 Q. Witness, if you could explain to the Judges 10 what you recall happened next? 11 A. In the warehouse, when we got in, when the 12 last person entered through the same door where I had 13 entered, he didn't have a place to sit down, so he 14 remained standing. And he was kicked by a Serb soldier 15 in the back. And the soldier told him -- he cursed at 16 him and he told him to sit down. And this man turned 17 around and he said, have no room to sit down." And 18 then there was a burst of gunfire that mowed him down. 19 And all of a sudden there was a lot of shooting in the 20 warehouse, and we didn't know where it was coming 21 from. 22 There were rifles, grenades, bursts of 23 gunfire and it was -- it got so dark in the warehouse 24 that we couldn't see anything. People started to 25 scream, to shout, crying for help. And then there Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2463 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 indicating a small door on the right-hand side of the 2 photograph. It's a small door with some writing above 3 it and it's the last door on the extreme right hand of 4 the photograph. 5 Q. And that's the warehouse, is it, Witness, 6 which you entered? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. Usher. 9 Q. Witness, if you could explain to the Judges 10 what you recall happened next? 11 A. In the warehouse, when we got in, when the 12 last person entered through the same door where I had 13 entered, he didn't have a place to sit down, so he 14 remained standing. And he was kicked by a Serb soldier 15 in the back. And the soldier told him -- he cursed at 16 him and he told him to sit down. And this man turned 17 around and he said, have no room to sit down." And 18 then there was a burst of gunfire that mowed him down. 19 And all of a sudden there was a lot of shooting in the 20 warehouse, and we didn't know where it was coming 21 from. 22 There were rifles, grenades, bursts of 23 gunfire and it was -- it got so dark in the warehouse 24 that we couldn't see anything. People started to 25 scream, to shout, crying for help. And then there Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2464 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 would be a lull, and then all of a sudden it would 2 start again. And they kept shooting like that until 3 nightfall in the warehouse. 4 I managed to reach an outside gate, a little 5 booth, and I found a neighbour of mine there, and he 6 told me to lie down. And I asked him if he was wounded 7 and he wasn't, and he asked me if I was wounded and I 8 wasn't either. And there was blood underneath and I 9 couldn't take it any longer. I pulled a dead body over 10 me, and this is how I remained for about 24 hours in 11 the warehouse. 12 In the next morning, one could tell that it 13 was dawning. This neighbour of mine stood up, and he 14 said that he needed to urinate because he was thirsty, 15 he couldn't take it anymore. So I grabbed him -- 16 pulled him by his coat and told him to lie down but 17 then there was a burst of gunfire and he fell down. 18 So I spent the whole day of the 14th of July 19 in the warehouse. I didn't know what time of day it 20 was. Somebody asked us at one point if there was 21 anyone healthy amongst us to join their army. So a 22 couple of people went out but I didn't watch. So I 23 don't know who left. 24 And there was a sound of a truck that left, 25 but I don't know in which direction it left. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2464 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 would be a lull, and then all of a sudden it would 2 start again. And they kept shooting like that until 3 nightfall in the warehouse. 4 I managed to reach an outside gate, a little 5 booth, and I found a neighbour of mine there, and he 6 told me to lie down. And I asked him if he was wounded 7 and he wasn't, and he asked me if I was wounded and I 8 wasn't either. And there was blood underneath and I 9 couldn't take it any longer. I pulled a dead body over 10 me, and this is how I remained for about 24 hours in 11 the warehouse. 12 In the next morning, one could tell that it 13 was dawning. This neighbour of mine stood up, and he 14 said that he needed to urinate because he was thirsty, 15 he couldn't take it anymore. So I grabbed him -- 16 pulled him by his coat and told him to lie down but 17 then there was a burst of gunfire and he fell down. 18 So I spent the whole day of the 14th of July 19 in the warehouse. I didn't know what time of day it 20 was. Somebody asked us at one point if there was 21 anyone healthy amongst us to join their army. So a 22 couple of people went out but I didn't watch. So I 23 don't know who left. 24 And there was a sound of a truck that left, 25 but I don't know in which direction it left. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2465 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 All of a sudden, I could hear a voice 2 crying, "Salko, Salko," for about 15 times. And then 3 somebody cursed us about our Turkish mothers. And then 4 we heard a voice, "Is there anybody alive amongst you?" 5 And then we heard a shoot and then everything went 6 quiet. After one hour, perhaps an hour and a half, 7 somebody started to shout, to cry, "Adila, Adila, get 8 me some water." 9 And then again, we could hear curses and 10 somebody asked if anyone was still alive. And then we 11 heard shots and everything went quiet again. Everybody 12 was silent. 13 I forgot to tell you that they had asked 14 about wounded. They wanted to know if anybody was 15 wounded, and they said that there would be an ambulance 16 that would take them to the hospital. So the wounded 17 people crawled out, and they were killed immediately 18 outside the warehouse. 19 When this guy who was crying for water was 20 killed, nobody spoke a word in the warehouse. 21 Then we heard a sound and I thought that the 22 vehicles were passing on the asphalt road and I could 23 tell that the sound was approaching but I didn't know 24 what was happening. When it became dark, we heard 25 voices, "Cover the asphalt with the hay," and that Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2465 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 All of a sudden, I could hear a voice 2 crying, "Salko, Salko," for about 15 times. And then 3 somebody cursed us about our Turkish mothers. And then 4 we heard a voice, "Is there anybody alive amongst you?" 5 And then we heard a shoot and then everything went 6 quiet. After one hour, perhaps an hour and a half, 7 somebody started to shout, to cry, "Adila, Adila, get 8 me some water." 9 And then again, we could hear curses and 10 somebody asked if anyone was still alive. And then we 11 heard shots and everything went quiet again. Everybody 12 was silent. 13 I forgot to tell you that they had asked 14 about wounded. They wanted to know if anybody was 15 wounded, and they said that there would be an ambulance 16 that would take them to the hospital. So the wounded 17 people crawled out, and they were killed immediately 18 outside the warehouse. 19 When this guy who was crying for water was 20 killed, nobody spoke a word in the warehouse. 21 Then we heard a sound and I thought that the 22 vehicles were passing on the asphalt road and I could 23 tell that the sound was approaching but I didn't know 24 what was happening. When it became dark, we heard 25 voices, "Cover the asphalt with the hay," and that Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2466 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 there was a truck that arrived and somebody said, "It's 2 enough for today." So they covered the whole area with 3 hay and I thought they wanted to set it on fire, but 4 they didn't. 5 When it became dark, I realised that nobody 6 was alive in the warehouse. I couldn't hear a single 7 voice, a single sound. So I began to crawl out, and I 8 sat down. But I was so weak and I couldn't -- couldn't 9 leave. I just sat there for about one hour, an hour 10 and a half. I was trying to stretch a little bit to 11 get my bearings. 12 But then at one point I had heard a whisper 13 and I didn't know whether it was coming from inside the 14 warehouse or outside the warehouse, because I was 15 sitting next to a door. 16 And I tried to walk across those dead bodies 17 towards the whisper and I found two persons in the 18 warehouse and I told them let's flee, let's get out of 19 here. One of them was very young, he was a tall guy 20 and he said we couldn't go together. I said, don't 21 know where to go. I don't know where I am." But he 22 said, "We couldn't go together." And I asked him where 23 he was from. He said he was from Lolici. And I wanted 24 to go with him, because he knew the area. But he kept 25 telling me that we couldn't go together. So I wanted Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2466 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 there was a truck that arrived and somebody said, "It's 2 enough for today." So they covered the whole area with 3 hay and I thought they wanted to set it on fire, but 4 they didn't. 5 When it became dark, I realised that nobody 6 was alive in the warehouse. I couldn't hear a single 7 voice, a single sound. So I began to crawl out, and I 8 sat down. But I was so weak and I couldn't -- couldn't 9 leave. I just sat there for about one hour, an hour 10 and a half. I was trying to stretch a little bit to 11 get my bearings. 12 But then at one point I had heard a whisper 13 and I didn't know whether it was coming from inside the 14 warehouse or outside the warehouse, because I was 15 sitting next to a door. 16 And I tried to walk across those dead bodies 17 towards the whisper and I found two persons in the 18 warehouse and I told them let's flee, let's get out of 19 here. One of them was very young, he was a tall guy 20 and he said we couldn't go together. I said, don't 21 know where to go. I don't know where I am." But he 22 said, "We couldn't go together." And I asked him where 23 he was from. He said he was from Lolici. And I wanted 24 to go with him, because he knew the area. But he kept 25 telling me that we couldn't go together. So I wanted Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2467 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 to know where the other guy was from and he addressed 2 him by his first name, but he told me that this other 3 person couldn't hear very well. 4 So I stood up, I wanted to go with them, but 5 they wouldn't let me. So I came out and I was standing 6 behind the excavator. It was a very bright night, and 7 the visibility was very good. 8 All of a sudden, somebody said 9 [indiscernible] and I heard a soldier and at one point, 10 I lied down. And the voice said, "Get up." But I kept 11 lying down. And he went on like that for about two or 12 three times and then he said, "Stand up." And all of a 13 sudden I jumped up, and I went -- I left the warehouse 14 which was on my left-hand side and I went towards the 15 river, towards the brook where I drank some water. 16 Q. Witness, at this point I want to ask you a 17 few questions about what happened in the warehouse. 18 I know that you're now talking about your 19 escape from the warehouse. So if you could just listen 20 to a few questions that I have about the warehouse. 21 Now, you said in your evidence that when the 22 shooting subsided, you went and hid. You reached an 23 outside gate, a reception booth. Do you recall that? 24 A. In the warehouse. 25 Q. In the warehouse. Do you recall that? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2467 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 to know where the other guy was from and he addressed 2 him by his first name, but he told me that this other 3 person couldn't hear very well. 4 So I stood up, I wanted to go with them, but 5 they wouldn't let me. So I came out and I was standing 6 behind the excavator. It was a very bright night, and 7 the visibility was very good. 8 All of a sudden, somebody said 9 [indiscernible] and I heard a soldier and at one point, 10 I lied down. And the voice said, "Get up." But I kept 11 lying down. And he went on like that for about two or 12 three times and then he said, "Stand up." And all of a 13 sudden I jumped up, and I went -- I left the warehouse 14 which was on my left-hand side and I went towards the 15 river, towards the brook where I drank some water. 16 Q. Witness, at this point I want to ask you a 17 few questions about what happened in the warehouse. 18 I know that you're now talking about your 19 escape from the warehouse. So if you could just listen 20 to a few questions that I have about the warehouse. 21 Now, you said in your evidence that when the 22 shooting subsided, you went and hid. You reached an 23 outside gate, a reception booth. Do you recall that? 24 A. In the warehouse. 25 Q. In the warehouse. Do you recall that? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2468 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. When I was getting out of the warehouse? 2 When I left it? 3 Q. No. I want you to think about when you were 4 actually in the warehouse, and I think you survived by 5 hiding in a reception booth. 6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 7 Q. You were in a sort of an office -- 8 A. It was a kind of reception booth, yes, rather 9 like that, a small hut. 10 Q. And it was inside the warehouse. 11 A. Yes, it was. Next to the warehouse, attached 12 to the warehouse. 13 Q. Was it inside the warehouse building or was 14 it outside, completely outside the warehouse? 15 A. From the warehouse I entered that reception 16 booth. It was all under one roof, but it was separate 17 from the warehouse where the dead were. But there were 18 some dead there too, inside the warehouse where I was. 19 Q. Now, in the reception booth, you covered 20 yourself with a dead body; is that right? 21 A. A body, yes. 22 Q. And do you recall how long you lay under that 23 dead body? 24 A. I lay there for 24 hours, in the warehouse, 25 under a dead body. I was brought to the warehouse on a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2468 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. When I was getting out of the warehouse? 2 When I left it? 3 Q. No. I want you to think about when you were 4 actually in the warehouse, and I think you survived by 5 hiding in a reception booth. 6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 7 Q. You were in a sort of an office -- 8 A. It was a kind of reception booth, yes, rather 9 like that, a small hut. 10 Q. And it was inside the warehouse. 11 A. Yes, it was. Next to the warehouse, attached 12 to the warehouse. 13 Q. Was it inside the warehouse building or was 14 it outside, completely outside the warehouse? 15 A. From the warehouse I entered that reception 16 booth. It was all under one roof, but it was separate 17 from the warehouse where the dead were. But there were 18 some dead there too, inside the warehouse where I was. 19 Q. Now, in the reception booth, you covered 20 yourself with a dead body; is that right? 21 A. A body, yes. 22 Q. And do you recall how long you lay under that 23 dead body? 24 A. I lay there for 24 hours, in the warehouse, 25 under a dead body. I was brought to the warehouse on a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2469 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Thursday, about 4.00, 4.30, and the next Friday, on the 2 14th, I left the warehouse. 3 Q. Could you see any of the concrete floor 4 around you, or were there bodies covering the whole 5 floor? 6 A. No where could you stand on the concrete 7 floor without stepping on a dead body. The dead bodies 8 had covered the entire concrete. 9 Q. And your clothes, did you have blood on your 10 clothes? 11 A. I brought my sweater to Zivinice, which was 12 bloodstained, when this Muskic from Cerska, when he was 13 killed at Baljkovica. And there were people who saw 14 how bloodstained my sweater was. I couldn't throw it 15 away because it was cold at night, but it stank to me, 16 never mind other people, but still again. And I reached Zepa with it, and from Zepa, with 18 that sweater, I got to Zivinice. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned that when you walked out 20 of the factory, you saw an excavator; do you recall 21 that? 22 A. I do. When we went out, I heard someone say 23 that they were collecting the dead and loading them 24 onto this truck. And when they were washing the 25 asphalt, it was covered in blood, so they brought the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2469 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Thursday, about 4.00, 4.30, and the next Friday, on the 2 14th, I left the warehouse. 3 Q. Could you see any of the concrete floor 4 around you, or were there bodies covering the whole 5 floor? 6 A. No where could you stand on the concrete 7 floor without stepping on a dead body. The dead bodies 8 had covered the entire concrete. 9 Q. And your clothes, did you have blood on your 10 clothes? 11 A. I brought my sweater to Zivinice, which was 12 bloodstained, when this Muskic from Cerska, when he was 13 killed at Baljkovica. And there were people who saw 14 how bloodstained my sweater was. I couldn't throw it 15 away because it was cold at night, but it stank to me, 16 never mind other people, but still again. And I reached Zepa with it, and from Zepa, with 18 that sweater, I got to Zivinice. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned that when you walked out 20 of the factory, you saw an excavator; do you recall 21 that? 22 A. I do. When we went out, I heard someone say 23 that they were collecting the dead and loading them 24 onto this truck. And when they were washing the 25 asphalt, it was covered in blood, so they brought the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2470 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 water tank to wash it. And what we heard was the 2 loading of the dead onto the truck. Where they took 3 them, I don't know. 4 Q. Was there a time when you feared that you 5 would be loaded alive onto a truck with all of these 6 bodies? 7 A. What normal person would not be afraid? I 8 kept thinking, why didn't I get killed, or I might get 9 loaded onto the truck alive. 10 Q. Did you hear the excavator loading bodies? 11 Did you hear the engines of the excavator loading 12 bodies? 13 A. Of course I heard it loading, only I didn't 14 know what it was until they said that the excavator 15 should park. 16 Q. Now, I think you've already explained to the 17 Judges that there came a time when you escaped from out 18 of the warehouse and a Serb soldier saw you as you were 19 crossing the road; do you recall that? 20 A. We weren't crossing the road. I reached the 21 road; he was to the right of the asphalt road, I was on 22 the left-hand side when he stopped me. I lay down. 23 The third time he yelled "Get up," I jumped up, I ran 24 towards the river, the warehouse was left behind me to 25 the left, and there wasn't a shot fired behind me. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2470 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 water tank to wash it. And what we heard was the 2 loading of the dead onto the truck. Where they took 3 them, I don't know. 4 Q. Was there a time when you feared that you 5 would be loaded alive onto a truck with all of these 6 bodies? 7 A. What normal person would not be afraid? I 8 kept thinking, why didn't I get killed, or I might get 9 loaded onto the truck alive. 10 Q. Did you hear the excavator loading bodies? 11 Did you hear the engines of the excavator loading 12 bodies? 13 A. Of course I heard it loading, only I didn't 14 know what it was until they said that the excavator 15 should park. 16 Q. Now, I think you've already explained to the 17 Judges that there came a time when you escaped from out 18 of the warehouse and a Serb soldier saw you as you were 19 crossing the road; do you recall that? 20 A. We weren't crossing the road. I reached the 21 road; he was to the right of the asphalt road, I was on 22 the left-hand side when he stopped me. I lay down. 23 The third time he yelled "Get up," I jumped up, I ran 24 towards the river, the warehouse was left behind me to 25 the left, and there wasn't a shot fired behind me. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2471 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 didn't hear him shout "Stop" again. I crossed the 2 river to some maize fields. 3 Q. Witness, when you say that "he" yelled at you 4 and "he" said get up, are you referring to the Bosnian 5 Serb soldier? 6 A. I imagine it was a soldier. Why he didn't 7 shoot, whether he thought it was one of them -- I 8 believe he must have thought it was one of them, 9 because they were 100 per cent sure that there was not 10 a living soul left in the warehouse. 11 Q. Now, the next part of your evidence you 12 simply need to answer my questions yes or no. 13 I think you eventually managed to get to the 14 town of Zepa on the 26th of July, with some of your 15 colleagues; is that right? 16 A. But for five days I was in and then 17 I reached Zepa. This person new well, the one 18 who escaped with me. For five days he led me around 19 If it hadn't been for him, I would have 20 never got out. He knew the ground; he knew every 21 village. And every night we tried to cross the asphalt 22 road but they were controlling it all night and all 23 day. 24 So during the night we would go into the 25 woods and they would cry out, "Come on, balija, come Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T til 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2471 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 didn't hear him shout "Stop" again. I crossed the 2 river to some maize fields. 3 Q. Witness, when you say that "he" yelled at you 4 and "he" said get up, are you referring to the Bosnian 5 Serb soldier? 6 A. I imagine it was a soldier. Why he didn't 7 shoot, whether he thought it was one of them -- I 8 believe he must have thought it was one of them, 9 because they were 100 per cent sure that there was not 10 a living soul left in the warehouse. 11 Q. Now, the next part of your evidence you 12 simply need to answer my questions yes or no. 13 I think you eventually managed to get to the 14 town of Zepa on the 26th of July, with some of your 15 colleagues; is that right? 16 A. But for five days I was in and then 17 I reached Zepa. This person new well, the one 18 who escaped with me. For five days he led me around 19 If it hadn't been for him, I would have 20 never got out. He knew the ground; he knew every 21 village. And every night we tried to cross the asphalt 22 road but they were controlling it all night and all 23 day. 24 So during the night we would go into the 25 woods and they would cry out, "Come on, balija, come Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T til 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2472 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 down." They swore at Alija. Then they would call out 2 Muslim names, "Zulfa," "Mustafa," "Alija, come on, come 3 down. Surrender. No one will hurt you." I thought 4 they must have noticed someone. So we couldn't cross 5 the road. I tried to persuade him to go to Zepa. He 6 wouldn't. He knew the road to Baljkovica. 7 We reached a place called Jela. We found 8 some more of our men there; I knew some of them. I 9 tried to persuade them to go to Zepa, that we should go 10 together. Then one of them answered, "My child is 11 hungry, he will die of hunger." "He will die anyway if 12 there is no food, I said." One man was wounded. A 13 bullet had entered here [indicates] and come out here 14 [indicates] but no real damage was done. He was a 15 relative. He told me that there was a forester who had 16 a transistor radio and that Zepa still hadn't fallen. 17 So I said, "Let's go to Zepa." This one from Cerska 18 wouldn't. He insisted on going to Cerska. 19 While we were sitting there in a garden, we 20 were looking for apples or pears or anything to eat, we 21 heard bursts of fire above the village of Jela. These 22 bursts of fire were heard, we hid, and then somebody 23 appeared in an olive-grey shirt, with a long beard. I 24 thought it was a Serb soldier. Then I pointed my 25 finger at him, to this one from Cerska, but he said, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2472 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 down." They swore at Alija. Then they would call out 2 Muslim names, "Zulfa," "Mustafa," "Alija, come on, come 3 down. Surrender. No one will hurt you." I thought 4 they must have noticed someone. So we couldn't cross 5 the road. I tried to persuade him to go to Zepa. He 6 wouldn't. He knew the road to Baljkovica. 7 We reached a place called Jela. We found 8 some more of our men there; I knew some of them. I 9 tried to persuade them to go to Zepa, that we should go 10 together. Then one of them answered, "My child is 11 hungry, he will die of hunger." "He will die anyway if 12 there is no food, I said." One man was wounded. A 13 bullet had entered here [indicates] and come out here 14 [indicates] but no real damage was done. He was a 15 relative. He told me that there was a forester who had 16 a transistor radio and that Zepa still hadn't fallen. 17 So I said, "Let's go to Zepa." This one from Cerska 18 wouldn't. He insisted on going to Cerska. 19 While we were sitting there in a garden, we 20 were looking for apples or pears or anything to eat, we 21 heard bursts of fire above the village of Jela. These 22 bursts of fire were heard, we hid, and then somebody 23 appeared in an olive-grey shirt, with a long beard. I 24 thought it was a Serb soldier. Then I pointed my 25 finger at him, to this one from Cerska, but he said, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2473 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 "No, no, he's one of us." 2 Then two came, both were deaf and dumb, and 3 they stayed on with this man from Cerska. And then me 4 and two others headed towards Zepa. They asked me, "Do 5 you know the way?" I said, don't. If only I could 6 see Rogac, then I would be able to find my way." And 7 so we went through the woods. 8 Up above Jela, on a hilltop, we saw eight 9 dead. Those dead were found when they went to collect 10 the bones. I told them where we had seen them. I 11 reached Rogac. I should have crossed Koprivne, which I 12 knew very well because I went hunting there. I had to 13 go around a house that had some very dangerous 14 watchdogs. I heard a voice. The three of us went to 15 the right. We sat down in a grass field, and after 16 four or five minutes, I saw two men appearing where we 17 had been. I didn't say anything to the others. Then 18 one of them noticed and said, "Look. Do you see 19 that?" And I said, do." "What are we going to 20 do?" "Well, they can't see us." And when the two of 21 them headed towards us, across the field -- the grass 22 hadn't been cut and they were heading towards us. So I 23 said, "Let's run," and then the other said, "Well, 24 let's see, maybe they are ours." And then I said, 25 "Well, how come we are here?" Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2473 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 "No, no, he's one of us." 2 Then two came, both were deaf and dumb, and 3 they stayed on with this man from Cerska. And then me 4 and two others headed towards Zepa. They asked me, "Do 5 you know the way?" I said, don't. If only I could 6 see Rogac, then I would be able to find my way." And 7 so we went through the woods. 8 Up above Jela, on a hilltop, we saw eight 9 dead. Those dead were found when they went to collect 10 the bones. I told them where we had seen them. I 11 reached Rogac. I should have crossed Koprivne, which I 12 knew very well because I went hunting there. I had to 13 go around a house that had some very dangerous 14 watchdogs. I heard a voice. The three of us went to 15 the right. We sat down in a grass field, and after 16 four or five minutes, I saw two men appearing where we 17 had been. I didn't say anything to the others. Then 18 one of them noticed and said, "Look. Do you see 19 that?" And I said, do." "What are we going to 20 do?" "Well, they can't see us." And when the two of 21 them headed towards us, across the field -- the grass 22 hadn't been cut and they were heading towards us. So I 23 said, "Let's run," and then the other said, "Well, 24 let's see, maybe they are ours." And then I said, 25 "Well, how come we are here?" Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2474 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 They came up close, then the last one slipped 2 and I saw that he had something on his back and I 3 realised he was one of ours. 4 Q. Witness, I realise that the trip that you 5 made to Zepa was very difficult and very frightening, 6 but I would just like you to simply confirm a number of 7 points to the Judges by simply answering yes or no. 8 Otherwise, I think we're going to be here a very long 9 time, and I know you want to go home to Bosnia 10 tomorrow. So simply answer yes or no. Do you 11 understand? 12 A. Why should I say yes or no to your 13 questions? 14 Q. Did you arrive in Zepa on the 26th of July. 15 A. On the 26th of July, I arrived in Zepa, about 16 3.00 in the afternoon. 17 Q. And then I think, on the 29th of July, Zepa 18 fell, you -- 19 A. On the 29th, Zepa fell. 20 Q. You left Zepa and you spent a long time -- 21 Witness, listen to my question and simply answer yes or 22 no to the question. 23 I think you left Zepa on the 29th of July and 24 you spent over 40 days wandering in Bosnian Serb 25 territory, and then you eventually made your way to the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2474 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 They came up close, then the last one slipped 2 and I saw that he had something on his back and I 3 realised he was one of ours. 4 Q. Witness, I realise that the trip that you 5 made to Zepa was very difficult and very frightening, 6 but I would just like you to simply confirm a number of 7 points to the Judges by simply answering yes or no. 8 Otherwise, I think we're going to be here a very long 9 time, and I know you want to go home to Bosnia 10 tomorrow. So simply answer yes or no. Do you 11 understand? 12 A. Why should I say yes or no to your 13 questions? 14 Q. Did you arrive in Zepa on the 26th of July. 15 A. On the 26th of July, I arrived in Zepa, about 16 3.00 in the afternoon. 17 Q. And then I think, on the 29th of July, Zepa 18 fell, you -- 19 A. On the 29th, Zepa fell. 20 Q. You left Zepa and you spent a long time -- 21 Witness, listen to my question and simply answer yes or 22 no to the question. 23 I think you left Zepa on the 29th of July and 24 you spent over 40 days wandering in Bosnian Serb 25 territory, and then you eventually made your way to the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2475 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 free territory on the 17th of September of 1995. Is 2 that right? Just yes or no. 3 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 4 Q. Thank you, Witness. 5 MR. GAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further 6 questions for the witness. 7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness J, 8 you are now going to answer questions that 9 Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel, is going to put to 10 you. 11 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. 12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and 13 good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends 14 opposite. 15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: 16 Q. Good morning, Witness. I shall do my best, 17 in the course of this examination, not to take you back 18 too much to your experiences, terrible experiences, and 19 as a wise man, I hope we will understand one another 20 and be able to cooperate well. 21 Before I begin with my questions, I should 22 like to raise a purely technical matter so as to 23 facilitate the work of the interpreters and all of us 24 here present, and that is that when I put a question to 25 you, as we speak the same language, could you wait a Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2475 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 free territory on the 17th of September of 1995. Is 2 that right? Just yes or no. 3 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 4 Q. Thank you, Witness. 5 MR. GAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further 6 questions for the witness. 7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness J, 8 you are now going to answer questions that 9 Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel, is going to put to 10 you. 11 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. 12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and 13 good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends 14 opposite. 15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: 16 Q. Good morning, Witness. I shall do my best, 17 in the course of this examination, not to take you back 18 too much to your experiences, terrible experiences, and 19 as a wise man, I hope we will understand one another 20 and be able to cooperate well. 21 Before I begin with my questions, I should 22 like to raise a purely technical matter so as to 23 facilitate the work of the interpreters and all of us 24 here present, and that is that when I put a question to 25 you, as we speak the same language, could you wait a Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2476 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 couple of seconds before giving your answer? 2 A. I will. 3 Q. Witness J, at the beginning of your 4 testimony, you said that the assembly of Muslim men was 5 held in Jaglici. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And only able-bodied men attended. 8 A. There were men; there were boys of 15 to 17 9 years of age. 10 Q. Did anyone of the military leaders of 11 Srebrenica give you an order to gather at Jaglici? 12 A. We were informed by couriers that Srebrenica 13 was to fall. On that day, I spent the day collecting 14 hay. The couriers came, "Srebrenica has fallen. The 15 old men, women, and children are going to Potocari and 16 the others to the woods." The assembly was held at 17 Jaglici, so we rallied there on the 11th, in the 18 evening. 19 Q. If we can call this an order to go into the 20 woods, was it accepted by all the men who had rallied 21 there? 22 A. Of course it was accepted to go towards Tuzla 23 and be what may. 24 Q. There were no opposite opinions? 25 A. I was not able to notice any. We were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2476 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 couple of seconds before giving your answer? 2 A. I will. 3 Q. Witness J, at the beginning of your 4 testimony, you said that the assembly of Muslim men was 5 held in Jaglici. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And only able-bodied men attended. 8 A. There were men; there were boys of 15 to 17 9 years of age. 10 Q. Did anyone of the military leaders of 11 Srebrenica give you an order to gather at Jaglici? 12 A. We were informed by couriers that Srebrenica 13 was to fall. On that day, I spent the day collecting 14 hay. The couriers came, "Srebrenica has fallen. The 15 old men, women, and children are going to Potocari and 16 the others to the woods." The assembly was held at 17 Jaglici, so we rallied there on the 11th, in the 18 evening. 19 Q. If we can call this an order to go into the 20 woods, was it accepted by all the men who had rallied 21 there? 22 A. Of course it was accepted to go towards Tuzla 23 and be what may. 24 Q. There were no opposite opinions? 25 A. I was not able to notice any. We were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2477 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 there. I went from Jaglici, on the 12th, at twenty to 2 one. 3 Q. Do you perhaps know, or did you perhaps hear 4 from men who went through all this with you that there 5 was a conflict in Jaglici between two different 6 currents of members of the 28th Division? 7 A. Between whom and whom, do you mean? 8 Q. That there were two groups. One group was in 9 favour of Potocari and the other was in favour of 10 making a breakthrough. 11 A. That was above Ravne Njive. Those who had to 12 go to Potocari went to Potocari, and those who went 13 into the woods went towards Jaglici. At Ravne Njive 14 they separated from their families, who went to 15 Potocari, and we went towards Jaglici. 16 Q. Yes, I understand that you separated from 17 your families. But when you rallied at Jaglici, were 18 there any incidents there, and even weapons being used 19 by various com anders? 20 A. At Jaglici there were no incidents while I 21 was there. 22 Q. Thank you, Witness J. Buljim Brdo was within 23 the enclave, wasn't it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And access to it was not open to Serb Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2477 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 there. I went from Jaglici, on the 12th, at twenty to 2 one. 3 Q. Do you perhaps know, or did you perhaps hear 4 from men who went through all this with you that there 5 was a conflict in Jaglici between two different 6 currents of members of the 28th Division? 7 A. Between whom and whom, do you mean? 8 Q. That there were two groups. One group was in 9 favour of Potocari and the other was in favour of 10 making a breakthrough. 11 A. That was above Ravne Njive. Those who had to 12 go to Potocari went to Potocari, and those who went 13 into the woods went towards Jaglici. At Ravne Njive 14 they separated from their families, who went to 15 Potocari, and we went towards Jaglici. 16 Q. Yes, I understand that you separated from 17 your families. But when you rallied at Jaglici, were 18 there any incidents there, and even weapons being used 19 by various com anders? 20 A. At Jaglici there were no incidents while I 21 was there. 22 Q. Thank you, Witness J. Buljim Brdo was within 23 the enclave, wasn't it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And access to it was not open to Serb Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2478 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 forces. 2 A. We crossed their lines. I didn't see anyone 3 there, on their lines. I saw their bunkers and 4 trenches very well, but I didn't see any soldiers, 5 until we reached a macadam road below Buljim. When we 6 got there, the column was stopped. Some asked, "What 7 are we waiting for?" And they said that the column had 8 been broken up and then the shooting started. 9 Q. So at Buljim, where their front line was, 10 there was no one. 11 A. Whether they had moved away and hid, I don't 12 know. But anyway, I didn't see anyone at Buljim. I 13 just saw the bunkers and the trenches but no soldiers, 14 no one alive. No persons. 15 Q. Witness J, at the beginning of your testimony 16 on Friday, if my memory serves me, you said that when 17 searching you, the Serb soldiers took 100 German 18 marks. 19 A. I gave 100 German marks involuntarily. When 20 I wandered to the asphalt, there were two of them 21 standing there, they searched our pockets, our belts. 22 They told us to put our hands behind our heads and 23 said, "Give us your money." I had 100 marks here in my 24 pocket and I gave them the 100 marks. But I had some 25 more in the lining of my jacket, and they found this, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2478 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 forces. 2 A. We crossed their lines. I didn't see anyone 3 there, on their lines. I saw their bunkers and 4 trenches very well, but I didn't see any soldiers, 5 until we reached a macadam road below Buljim. When we 6 got there, the column was stopped. Some asked, "What 7 are we waiting for?" And they said that the column had 8 been broken up and then the shooting started. 9 Q. So at Buljim, where their front line was, 10 there was no one. 11 A. Whether they had moved away and hid, I don't 12 know. But anyway, I didn't see anyone at Buljim. I 13 just saw the bunkers and the trenches but no soldiers, 14 no one alive. No persons. 15 Q. Witness J, at the beginning of your testimony 16 on Friday, if my memory serves me, you said that when 17 searching you, the Serb soldiers took 100 German 18 marks. 19 A. I gave 100 German marks involuntarily. When 20 I wandered to the asphalt, there were two of them 21 standing there, they searched our pockets, our belts. 22 They told us to put our hands behind our heads and 23 said, "Give us your money." I had 100 marks here in my 24 pocket and I gave them the 100 marks. But I had some 25 more in the lining of my jacket, and they found this, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2479 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 600 marks, two necklaces, and ten gold coins. 2 Q. You said that the column, when it was formed 3 four by four, that according to your estimate, it was 4 400 to 500 metres long. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who accompanied it? 7 A. It was accompanied or escorted by Serb 8 soldiers. 9 Q. Did you notice anything in particular about 10 the way it was escorted? 11 A. No, I didn't notice anything, except when we 12 got close to Kravica, I saw an UNPROFOR personnel 13 carrier. Who was on it, I don't know. Whether it was 14 the Serbs or UNPROFOR. But in any event they didn't do 15 anything. We passed by it. 16 Q. At the front of that column, was there a 17 soldier with a dog? 18 A. Yesrifle. I'm not sure because he was quite a way from 20 me. 21 Q. You mean a light machine-gun, don't you, an 22 M-53 or M-54 or 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 Q. Witness J, when you entered this warehouse, a 25 picture of which is on the ELMO, could you tell us the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2479 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 600 marks, two necklaces, and ten gold coins. 2 Q. You said that the column, when it was formed 3 four by four, that according to your estimate, it was 4 400 to 500 metres long. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who accompanied it? 7 A. It was accompanied or escorted by Serb 8 soldiers. 9 Q. Did you notice anything in particular about 10 the way it was escorted? 11 A. No, I didn't notice anything, except when we 12 got close to Kravica, I saw an UNPROFOR personnel 13 carrier. Who was on it, I don't know. Whether it was 14 the Serbs or UNPROFOR. But in any event they didn't do 15 anything. We passed by it. 16 Q. At the front of that column, was there a 17 soldier with a dog? 18 A. Yesrifle. I'm not sure because he was quite a way from 20 me. 21 Q. You mean a light machine-gun, don't you, an 22 M-53 or M-54 or 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 Q. Witness J, when you entered this warehouse, a 25 picture of which is on the ELMO, could you tell us the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2480 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 size of that warehouse? I know it is difficult to 2 think back and remember these things. 3 A. In my estimate, it seemed to me between 40 4 and 50 metres long and maybe 15 metres widemetres long? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You said that the Serb soldiers entered. As 8 far as I understood your testimony, they opened the 9 door and fired. 10 A. They fired through the door and they threw 11 grenades through the windows and used rifle grenades, 12 and all sorts of things. It was really a disaster. I 13 don't know what kind of a nation they can be to kill 14 people like that. Let everyone live as they will. 15 Q. Did you say they were using Zoljas? 16 A. They used anything at all, whatever they 17 could get hold of. 18 Q. Witness J, I assure you that it is not my 19 intention to revive those terrible memories for you, 20 but I have to, so could you explain. You were a 21 soldier? 22 A. I was. 23 Q. A Zolja is a deadly weapon or am unition that 24 destroys man, personnel and causes burning in a closed 25 area? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2480 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 size of that warehouse? I know it is difficult to 2 think back and remember these things. 3 A. In my estimate, it seemed to me between 40 4 and 50 metres long and maybe 15 metres widemetres long? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You said that the Serb soldiers entered. As 8 far as I understood your testimony, they opened the 9 door and fired. 10 A. They fired through the door and they threw 11 grenades through the windows and used rifle grenades, 12 and all sorts of things. It was really a disaster. I 13 don't know what kind of a nation they can be to kill 14 people like that. Let everyone live as they will. 15 Q. Did you say they were using Zoljas? 16 A. They used anything at all, whatever they 17 could get hold of. 18 Q. Witness J, I assure you that it is not my 19 intention to revive those terrible memories for you, 20 but I have to, so could you explain. You were a 21 soldier? 22 A. I was. 23 Q. A Zolja is a deadly weapon or am unition that 24 destroys man, personnel and causes burning in a closed 25 area? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2481 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. No one needs to ask me anything. There's 2 proof on the walls and the blood samples, and they have 3 proven everything. 4 Q. Yes, but I'm just asking you whether what I'm 5 saying is correct? 6 A. What I heard firing was not just automatic 7 weapons. 8 Q. Witness J, could you explain why, in fact, 9 you went into the woods? 10 A. I went into the woods. I had to go somewhere 11 to save my life, as anyone else would do to get a hold 12 of free territory. I already had occasion to see since 13 1992 what was done in the places that fell before 14 Srebrenica. There was burning and killing regardless 15 of whether people were young or old. They hit cows and 16 calves. 17 My daughter was watching the cattle. One of 18 them was wounded. Why is he shooting my daughter if I 19 am on the front line? She is innocent. 20 Q. Witness J, do you know that from the other -- 21 the Muslim side, the same things were done? 22 A. Yes. What did we have, and what did they 23 have? They were sitting on the -- on Rogac, like a 24 gentleman, whether he wants to shoot Zepa or I don't 25 know what he could do. What about us? We started Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2481 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. No one needs to ask me anything. There's 2 proof on the walls and the blood samples, and they have 3 proven everything. 4 Q. Yes, but I'm just asking you whether what I'm 5 saying is correct? 6 A. What I heard firing was not just automatic 7 weapons. 8 Q. Witness J, could you explain why, in fact, 9 you went into the woods? 10 A. I went into the woods. I had to go somewhere 11 to save my life, as anyone else would do to get a hold 12 of free territory. I already had occasion to see since 13 1992 what was done in the places that fell before 14 Srebrenica. There was burning and killing regardless 15 of whether people were young or old. They hit cows and 16 calves. 17 My daughter was watching the cattle. One of 18 them was wounded. Why is he shooting my daughter if I 19 am on the front line? She is innocent. 20 Q. Witness J, do you know that from the other -- 21 the Muslim side, the same things were done? 22 A. Yes. What did we have, and what did they 23 have? They were sitting on the -- on Rogac, like a 24 gentleman, whether he wants to shoot Zepa or I don't 25 know what he could do. What about us? We started Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2482 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 defending ourselves with hunting rifles, with homemade 2 devices. Everything went to the Serb army. We were 3 left without anything. You also know in that period -- 4 we didn't have a tank or a personnel carrier or a 5 mortar or a howitzer. They had everything. 6 Q. Do you know that in the period of spring, 7 sum er, autumn, winter of 1992 to 1993, that tens of 8 villages and dozens of villagers were killed of Serb 9 ethnicity? 10 A. We weren't the ones to start the war. We 11 were attacked. We had to defend ourselves. That has 12 been proven. They first attacked Slovenia and then 13 Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina and now they are 14 attacking Kosovo, and now they want Sandzak too. It is 15 an aggressor. 16 Q. Witness J, my question was focussed on the 17 municipality of Srebrenica and the spring, summer, 18 autumn of 1992 and the beginning of winter 1993 19 inclusive -- until the arrival of the UN mission or 20 rather the formation of a protected zone. 21 When it was protected, why did it let such a 22 disaster happen? That is my question. Do you know 23 that in that area and in that period, dozens of Serb 24 villages were burnt down and that hundreds of civilians 25 were killed? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2482 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 defending ourselves with hunting rifles, with homemade 2 devices. Everything went to the Serb army. We were 3 left without anything. You also know in that period -- 4 we didn't have a tank or a personnel carrier or a 5 mortar or a howitzer. They had everything. 6 Q. Do you know that in the period of spring, 7 sum er, autumn, winter of 1992 to 1993, that tens of 8 villages and dozens of villagers were killed of Serb 9 ethnicity? 10 A. We weren't the ones to start the war. We 11 were attacked. We had to defend ourselves. That has 12 been proven. They first attacked Slovenia and then 13 Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina and now they are 14 attacking Kosovo, and now they want Sandzak too. It is 15 an aggressor. 16 Q. Witness J, my question was focussed on the 17 municipality of Srebrenica and the spring, summer, 18 autumn of 1992 and the beginning of winter 1993 19 inclusive -- until the arrival of the UN mission or 20 rather the formation of a protected zone. 21 When it was protected, why did it let such a 22 disaster happen? That is my question. Do you know 23 that in that area and in that period, dozens of Serb 24 villages were burnt down and that hundreds of civilians 25 were killed? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2483 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. Understand what I'm saying. We had to defend 2 ourselves. How many people surrendered in Vlasenica? 3 Where are they today? It would have been the same with 4 Srebrenica and Zepa. All they wanted was to destroy us 5 so we wouldn't exist. 6 Q. And these acts that were com itted in that 7 time and the area that we are referring to, did they 8 have the same aim in mind? 9 A. What do you mean? 10 Q. If the Serbs wanted to destroy the Muslims. 11 A. Did we Muslims attack the Serbs or did the 12 Serbs attack Muslims? Who attacked whom? 13 Q. I don't want to take any more time. I'm just 14 asking this witness to answer my question. Did it 15 happen or did it not? 16 A. As they attacked us, we had to defend 17 ourselves. That is number one. Only if we had the 18 equipment they had, we wouldn't have acted in that 19 way. We defended ourselves with hunting rifles and 20 devices. 21 Q. Did you have infantry weapons? 22 A. I only had a hunting rifle throughout the 23 war, and I brought it to Jaglici. 24 Q. Did you have an armed army, military unit? 25 A. Who would arm them if somebody bought a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2483 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. Understand what I'm saying. We had to defend 2 ourselves. How many people surrendered in Vlasenica? 3 Where are they today? It would have been the same with 4 Srebrenica and Zepa. All they wanted was to destroy us 5 so we wouldn't exist. 6 Q. And these acts that were com itted in that 7 time and the area that we are referring to, did they 8 have the same aim in mind? 9 A. What do you mean? 10 Q. If the Serbs wanted to destroy the Muslims. 11 A. Did we Muslims attack the Serbs or did the 12 Serbs attack Muslims? Who attacked whom? 13 Q. I don't want to take any more time. I'm just 14 asking this witness to answer my question. Did it 15 happen or did it not? 16 A. As they attacked us, we had to defend 17 ourselves. That is number one. Only if we had the 18 equipment they had, we wouldn't have acted in that 19 way. We defended ourselves with hunting rifles and 20 devices. 21 Q. Did you have infantry weapons? 22 A. I only had a hunting rifle throughout the 23 war, and I brought it to Jaglici. 24 Q. Did you have an armed army, military unit? 25 A. Who would arm them if somebody bought a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2484 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 weapon or captured a weapon. That's what they had. 2 Q. So you are claiming that there were no 3 infantry weapons or automatic rifles or machine-guns 4 mortars? 5 A. In our local community, there wasn't a single 6 light machine-gun. We may have had eight carbines and 7 hunting rifles. And perhaps somebody prior to the war 8 may have purchased an automatic rifle. That's all we 9 had. 10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 11 Mr. President, Your Honours, I have no more questions. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 13 very much, Mr. Petrusic. 14 Mr. Cayley, any re-examination? 15 MR. CAYLEY: No. 16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Riad. 17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. 18 Questioned by the Court: 19 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness J. I'll 20 have to call you and not to call you by your name. 21 We do appreciate your coming here to testify, 22 and we fully realise how painful it is for you. 23 I'll not prolong your ordeal, but we would 24 like to see more clearly some of the events you 25 mentioned in a few questions. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2484 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 weapon or captured a weapon. That's what they had. 2 Q. So you are claiming that there were no 3 infantry weapons or automatic rifles or machine-guns 4 mortars? 5 A. In our local community, there wasn't a single 6 light machine-gun. We may have had eight carbines and 7 hunting rifles. And perhaps somebody prior to the war 8 may have purchased an automatic rifle. That's all we 9 had. 10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 11 Mr. President, Your Honours, I have no more questions. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 13 very much, Mr. Petrusic. 14 Mr. Cayley, any re-examination? 15 MR. CAYLEY: No. 16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Riad. 17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. 18 Questioned by the Court: 19 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness J. I'll 20 have to call you and not to call you by your name. 21 We do appreciate your coming here to testify, 22 and we fully realise how painful it is for you. 23 I'll not prolong your ordeal, but we would 24 like to see more clearly some of the events you 25 mentioned in a few questions. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2485 Questioned by the Court 1 I'll start by what you mentioned about your 2 being in the Bosnian army. How long did you stay in 3 the Bosnian army? 4 A. From the 17th of April, 1992 until 1996. 5 JUDGE RIAD: And what was your grade? 6 A. I didn't have any. I simply went to the 7 line, I was there. I was a member of the civil -- 8 before I was a member of the civil protection service, 9 I worked in the logistics department and it was like 10 that until 1996 when I was demobilised. 11 JUDGE RIAD: But you said that on the 11th of 12 July, 1995, you were a farmer in the village in this 13 Srebrenica enclave. Was that right? 14 A. Yes. I had been working on my land all my 15 life. This was my source of income. 16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, we go to the warehouse. 17 I'm sorry if I have to evoke your memory, and the 18 memory because there is some kind of -- it doesn't look 19 very clear to me what happened there. 20 You said the warehouse was so full that a 21 match would not fall on the ground, it would fall on 22 the head of people. And then during these events -- 23 A. Yes. 24 JUDGE RIAD: Apparently nobody was left alive 25 after they were killed, I mean how were they killed. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2485 Questioned by the Court 1 I'll start by what you mentioned about your 2 being in the Bosnian army. How long did you stay in 3 the Bosnian army? 4 A. From the 17th of April, 1992 until 1996. 5 JUDGE RIAD: And what was your grade? 6 A. I didn't have any. I simply went to the 7 line, I was there. I was a member of the civil -- 8 before I was a member of the civil protection service, 9 I worked in the logistics department and it was like 10 that until 1996 when I was demobilised. 11 JUDGE RIAD: But you said that on the 11th of 12 July, 1995, you were a farmer in the village in this 13 Srebrenica enclave. Was that right? 14 A. Yes. I had been working on my land all my 15 life. This was my source of income. 16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, we go to the warehouse. 17 I'm sorry if I have to evoke your memory, and the 18 memory because there is some kind of -- it doesn't look 19 very clear to me what happened there. 20 You said the warehouse was so full that a 21 match would not fall on the ground, it would fall on 22 the head of people. And then during these events -- 23 A. Yes. 24 JUDGE RIAD: Apparently nobody was left alive 25 after they were killed, I mean how were they killed. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2486 Questioned by the Court 1 mean killing people who were sticking to each otherthrough a bomb? How could you kill 3 a place and nobody was left? Can I just ask you this 4 very sad memory, how it happened? Was it by grenades, 5 was it by -- because you can't shoot people standing 6 almost totally stuck to each other. 7 A. Take the example of the men who left the 8 warehouse with me. He had been hit with shrapnel all 9 over his body, on his legs. I wasn't wounded at all. 10 So he managed to reach Baljkovica and he was killed, 11 that's where he died. But I had not been wounded. I 12 was just lucky. It was my fate, that I survived. 13 When we were going to Zepa there were four of 14 us in a column. Actually, there were nine of us. I 15 was the fourth one in the column, and the one behind 16 stepped on a mine. And the one who was the seventh in 17 the column also stepped on a mine and lost two legs. 18 Afterwards, when they went back to the area 19 to look for the bodies, look for the bones, they 20 managed to find those bodies as they were clearing up 21 the road. 22 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that -- when you 23 were answering the Defence counsel, you mentioned that 24 the Serbs shot people young and old as well as animals, 25 as well as the cat, I suppose, you mentioned -- Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2486 Questioned by the Court 1 mean killing people who were sticking to each otherthrough a bomb? How could you kill 3 a place and nobody was left? Can I just ask you this 4 very sad memory, how it happened? Was it by grenades, 5 was it by -- because you can't shoot people standing 6 almost totally stuck to each other. 7 A. Take the example of the men who left the 8 warehouse with me. He had been hit with shrapnel all 9 over his body, on his legs. I wasn't wounded at all. 10 So he managed to reach Baljkovica and he was killed, 11 that's where he died. But I had not been wounded. I 12 was just lucky. It was my fate, that I survived. 13 When we were going to Zepa there were four of 14 us in a column. Actually, there were nine of us. I 15 was the fourth one in the column, and the one behind 16 stepped on a mine. And the one who was the seventh in 17 the column also stepped on a mine and lost two legs. 18 Afterwards, when they went back to the area 19 to look for the bodies, look for the bones, they 20 managed to find those bodies as they were clearing up 21 the road. 22 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that -- when you 23 were answering the Defence counsel, you mentioned that 24 the Serbs shot people young and old as well as animals, 25 as well as the cat, I suppose, you mentioned -- Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2487 Questioned by the Court 1 A. The same. 2 JUDGE RIAD: -- why did they have to collect 3 people in the warehouse. They can shoot them 4 everywhere. Did they shoot people wherever they found 5 them, and whether they are; men, women? 6 A. While I was walking around in Pobude, I saw a 7 number of dead bodies in brooks and rivers. They just 8 wanted to get rid of people. They didn't pay attention 9 to whether somebody was young or old. They just wanted 10 to destroy them. 11 JUDGE RIAD: What happened to your daughter? 12 A. My daughter was watching after cattle in a 13 field. There was another girl with her from a 14 neighbouring village, and shelling took place and one 15 of my daughters was killed and the other one was 16 wounded. 17 The girl who was from the neighbouring 18 village was also wounded. She didn't manage to reach 19 Srebrenica alive, but the other one spent 17 days in 20 the hospital and she survived. 21 One of my oxen was killed, a cow was also 22 killed in that shelling. Everything was destroyed. I 23 have lost a number of relatives and cousins and people 24 who could have helped me, but today I have to help 25 their children, and it's very difficult for me to help Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2487 Questioned by the Court 1 A. The same. 2 JUDGE RIAD: -- why did they have to collect 3 people in the warehouse. They can shoot them 4 everywhere. Did they shoot people wherever they found 5 them, and whether they are; men, women? 6 A. While I was walking around in Pobude, I saw a 7 number of dead bodies in brooks and rivers. They just 8 wanted to get rid of people. They didn't pay attention 9 to whether somebody was young or old. They just wanted 10 to destroy them. 11 JUDGE RIAD: What happened to your daughter? 12 A. My daughter was watching after cattle in a 13 field. There was another girl with her from a 14 neighbouring village, and shelling took place and one 15 of my daughters was killed and the other one was 16 wounded. 17 The girl who was from the neighbouring 18 village was also wounded. She didn't manage to reach 19 Srebrenica alive, but the other one spent 17 days in 20 the hospital and she survived. 21 One of my oxen was killed, a cow was also 22 killed in that shelling. Everything was destroyed. I 23 have lost a number of relatives and cousins and people 24 who could have helped me, but today I have to help 25 their children, and it's very difficult for me to help Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2488 Questioned by the Court 1 anyone. I am barely surviving. 2 JUDGE RIAD: We are very happy that you have 3 survived. 4 A. Yes, I was lucky. Yes, that's what I keep 5 telling myself. But what's it worth now? My life has 6 been damaged, my health. When I have to sit for a long 7 time and then when I have to stand up, it's very 8 difficult for me to stand up on my right leg 9 from rheumatism. 10 JUDGE RIAD: Well, I think that will pass 11 with time. You're still a young man. 12 A. If I were allowed to go back to my land, yes, 13 but they wouldn't let me go back. And lots of 14 criminals are still at large and the world is simply 15 watching, and the world could have helped us. 16 JUDGE RIAD: The world is listening very 17 carefully to what you are saying, so be fully aware of 18 that. 19 Now, just my last question: Those people who 20 were in this warehouse, all of them, were they 21 soldiers, were they military people, or were they 22 civilians? 23 A. They were civilians, most of them. Most of 24 them were very young children, elderly people. There 25 were people of 60 years of age or more. They didn't Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2488 Questioned by the Court 1 anyone. I am barely surviving. 2 JUDGE RIAD: We are very happy that you have 3 survived. 4 A. Yes, I was lucky. Yes, that's what I keep 5 telling myself. But what's it worth now? My life has 6 been damaged, my health. When I have to sit for a long 7 time and then when I have to stand up, it's very 8 difficult for me to stand up on my right leg 9 from rheumatism. 10 JUDGE RIAD: Well, I think that will pass 11 with time. You're still a young man. 12 A. If I were allowed to go back to my land, yes, 13 but they wouldn't let me go back. And lots of 14 criminals are still at large and the world is simply 15 watching, and the world could have helped us. 16 JUDGE RIAD: The world is listening very 17 carefully to what you are saying, so be fully aware of 18 that. 19 Now, just my last question: Those people who 20 were in this warehouse, all of them, were they 21 soldiers, were they military people, or were they 22 civilians? 23 A. They were civilians, most of them. Most of 24 them were very young children, elderly people. There 25 were people of 60 years of age or more. They didn't Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2489 Questioned by the Court 1 dare go to Potocari. They thought it would be easier 2 for them to go through the woods. 3 JUDGE RIAD: You mean they collected them 4 from the woods? 5 A. Who collected them? They were capturing them 6 in the woods, and then they took them to Lolici, and 7 after they had been gathered in Lolici, from there they 8 were taken to Kravica. 9 JUDGE RIAD: That's the answer I wanted. 10 Thank you so much, and I wish you luck. 11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're 12 welcome. Thank you. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 14 Judge Riad. 15 Judge Wald. 16 JUDGE WALD: Witness J, you told us that when 17 Srebrenica fell, a courier came to tell people, and it 18 had been agreed upon that the men would go through the 19 woods, and the women and children and others would go 20 on to Potocari. 21 Now, had that kind of agreement been arrived 22 at by the leaders of the Muslim com unity in 23 Srebrenica, or was it, as the Defence counsel 24 suggested, an order from the members of the 28th 25 Brigade or the Muslim army? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2489 Questioned by the Court 1 dare go to Potocari. They thought it would be easier 2 for them to go through the woods. 3 JUDGE RIAD: You mean they collected them 4 from the woods? 5 A. Who collected them? They were capturing them 6 in the woods, and then they took them to Lolici, and 7 after they had been gathered in Lolici, from there they 8 were taken to Kravica. 9 JUDGE RIAD: That's the answer I wanted. 10 Thank you so much, and I wish you luck. 11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're 12 welcome. Thank you. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 14 Judge Riad. 15 Judge Wald. 16 JUDGE WALD: Witness J, you told us that when 17 Srebrenica fell, a courier came to tell people, and it 18 had been agreed upon that the men would go through the 19 woods, and the women and children and others would go 20 on to Potocari. 21 Now, had that kind of agreement been arrived 22 at by the leaders of the Muslim com unity in 23 Srebrenica, or was it, as the Defence counsel 24 suggested, an order from the members of the 28th 25 Brigade or the Muslim army? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2490 Questioned by the Court 1 A. They informed the civilians, the population 2 in the villages, that Srebrenica had fallen, and they 3 said that we should go to the woods or to Potocari. 4 There were two options and we could choose between the 5 two. 6 JUDGE WALD: Who is the "they" that told you 7 that? What do you mean by "they"? 8 A. Well, probably the United Nations who were 9 protecting Srebrenica, they probably said that 10 Srebrenica had fallen, that the enclave had fallen, and 11 then our people conveyed the message to us, our 12 superiors. 13 JUDGE WALD: "Superiors" meaning your 14 superiors in the Bosnian army or your leaders in the 15 com unity? 16 A. Probably those who represented the 17 municipality, the municipal authorities. They told the 18 military and the civilians that Srebrenica had fallen 19 and that we should leave. 20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the time that you 21 left, were you still a member of the Bosnian army? 22 Even though you were farming your land, you were still 23 in the Bosnian army when you left to go to the woods? 24 A. Yes, I was a member of the civilian defence 25 when I left, and then after about -- I spent about Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2490 Questioned by the Court 1 A. They informed the civilians, the population 2 in the villages, that Srebrenica had fallen, and they 3 said that we should go to the woods or to Potocari. 4 There were two options and we could choose between the 5 two. 6 JUDGE WALD: Who is the "they" that told you 7 that? What do you mean by "they"? 8 A. Well, probably the United Nations who were 9 protecting Srebrenica, they probably said that 10 Srebrenica had fallen, that the enclave had fallen, and 11 then our people conveyed the message to us, our 12 superiors. 13 JUDGE WALD: "Superiors" meaning your 14 superiors in the Bosnian army or your leaders in the 15 com unity? 16 A. Probably those who represented the 17 municipality, the municipal authorities. They told the 18 military and the civilians that Srebrenica had fallen 19 and that we should leave. 20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the time that you 21 left, were you still a member of the Bosnian army? 22 Even though you were farming your land, you were still 23 in the Bosnian army when you left to go to the woods? 24 A. Yes, I was a member of the civilian defence 25 when I left, and then after about -- I spent about Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2491 Questioned by the Court 1 three months in the civilian defence. 2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. When you were 3 going through the woods and you met your first and 4 second ambushes that you told us about, was the first 5 firing by the Serb armies, or did, in any case, the men 6 in the woods initiate the fire? 7 A. It mostly came from the left side of the 8 hill. We could hear someone shouting, "What are you 9 waiting for?" and then they cursed at us and at that 10 moment shooting started. Lots of people remained 11 there, lots of wounded and dead. But nobody paid 12 attention to anybody else. 13 JUDGE WALD: Did some of the people in the 14 column that was marching towards Tuzla, did they return 15 the fire? When they were shot at, did they shoot back? 16 A. Nobody returned fire. 17 JUDGE WALD: Nobody returned fired. 18 A. Nobody even thought of returning fire -- 19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. 20 A. -- because we were surrounded. 21 JUDGE WALD: Now, my next question deals with 22 when General Mladic came. I want to make sure I have 23 the dates right. General Mladic, I think you said, but 24 you can tell me if I'm wrong, he came on the 13th and 25 assured the people gathered there in the field that you Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2491 Questioned by the Court 1 three months in the civilian defence. 2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. When you were 3 going through the woods and you met your first and 4 second ambushes that you told us about, was the first 5 firing by the Serb armies, or did, in any case, the men 6 in the woods initiate the fire? 7 A. It mostly came from the left side of the 8 hill. We could hear someone shouting, "What are you 9 waiting for?" and then they cursed at us and at that 10 moment shooting started. Lots of people remained 11 there, lots of wounded and dead. But nobody paid 12 attention to anybody else. 13 JUDGE WALD: Did some of the people in the 14 column that was marching towards Tuzla, did they return 15 the fire? When they were shot at, did they shoot back? 16 A. Nobody returned fire. 17 JUDGE WALD: Nobody returned fired. 18 A. Nobody even thought of returning fire -- 19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. 20 A. -- because we were surrounded. 21 JUDGE WALD: Now, my next question deals with 22 when General Mladic came. I want to make sure I have 23 the dates right. General Mladic, I think you said, but 24 you can tell me if I'm wrong, he came on the 13th and 25 assured the people gathered there in the field that you Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2492 Questioned by the Court 1 would be taken care of and given shade and given food, 2 et cetera. Was that the 13th? And then on the 14th 3 was when the shooting -- 4 A. On the 13th. 5 JUDGE WALD: Right. And then on the 14th, 6 the shooting occurred in the warehouse; is that right? 7 A. On the 14th was the shooting. 8 JUDGE WALD: So that was the day after 9 General Mladic -- 10 A. General Mladic arrived on Thursday, in 11 Lolici, and on Thursday we were brought to the 12 warehouse. The shooting started on Thursday, around 13 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. And on Friday, that is, 14 on the 14th, I spent the whole day in the warehouse. 15 On the night between Friday and Saturday, I left the 16 warehouse. 17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in the warehouse, I 18 think you told Judge Riad, in answer to one of his 19 questions, that there were a lot of men collected from 20 the column, from the woods, who had either surrendered 21 or been captured. To the best of your knowledge -- to 22 the best of your -- could I -- 23 A. Columns of people were brought in from the 24 woods. We didn't get there altogether. People kept 25 arriving in groups, because we had surrendered up in Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2492 Questioned by the Court 1 would be taken care of and given shade and given food, 2 et cetera. Was that the 13th? And then on the 14th 3 was when the shooting -- 4 A. On the 13th. 5 JUDGE WALD: Right. And then on the 14th, 6 the shooting occurred in the warehouse; is that right? 7 A. On the 14th was the shooting. 8 JUDGE WALD: So that was the day after 9 General Mladic -- 10 A. General Mladic arrived on Thursday, in 11 Lolici, and on Thursday we were brought to the 12 warehouse. The shooting started on Thursday, around 13 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. And on Friday, that is, 14 on the 14th, I spent the whole day in the warehouse. 15 On the night between Friday and Saturday, I left the 16 warehouse. 17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in the warehouse, I 18 think you told Judge Riad, in answer to one of his 19 questions, that there were a lot of men collected from 20 the column, from the woods, who had either surrendered 21 or been captured. To the best of your knowledge -- to 22 the best of your -- could I -- 23 A. Columns of people were brought in from the 24 woods. We didn't get there altogether. People kept 25 arriving in groups, because we had surrendered up in Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2493 Questioned by the Court 1 the hills and people started brandishing white shirts 2 on sticks. 3 JUDGE WALD: But to your knowledge, to the 4 best of your knowledge, were all the people in the 5 warehouse people who had either been captured or 6 surrendered in the woods? None of them were people who 7 had stayed in Potocari and were bused out of Potocari. 8 Is that right? 9 A. No. Nobody from Potocari was there. Just 10 people who had gone to the woods, they were there in 11 the warehouse. 12 JUDGE WALD: All right. 13 A. What happened in other places, I don't know. 14 I just know what happened when we were surrounded at 15 Kamenica. I don't know what happened to other people. 16 Whether they had surrendered or whether they had been 17 captured, I don't know. I just know what happened 18 where I was. 19 JUDGE WALD: Now, my last question is: You 20 said that you got back to Zepa on September 26th. Now, 21 when you got back there, was Zepa still under siege? 22 That was before its surrender on the 29th. Was it 23 under assault and being besieged by the Serbian forces 24 when you got there? 25 A. Yes. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2493 Questioned by the Court 1 the hills and people started brandishing white shirts 2 on sticks. 3 JUDGE WALD: But to your knowledge, to the 4 best of your knowledge, were all the people in the 5 warehouse people who had either been captured or 6 surrendered in the woods? None of them were people who 7 had stayed in Potocari and were bused out of Potocari. 8 Is that right? 9 A. No. Nobody from Potocari was there. Just 10 people who had gone to the woods, they were there in 11 the warehouse. 12 JUDGE WALD: All right. 13 A. What happened in other places, I don't know. 14 I just know what happened when we were surrounded at 15 Kamenica. I don't know what happened to other people. 16 Whether they had surrendered or whether they had been 17 captured, I don't know. I just know what happened 18 where I was. 19 JUDGE WALD: Now, my last question is: You 20 said that you got back to Zepa on September 26th. Now, 21 when you got back there, was Zepa still under siege? 22 That was before its surrender on the 29th. Was it 23 under assault and being besieged by the Serbian forces 24 when you got there? 25 A. Yes. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2494 Questioned by the Court 1 JUDGE WALD: Do you have any knowledge of how 2 long it had been under siege before that? 3 A. It wasn't on the 29th. Zepa fell on the 29th 4 of July, not September. 5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I see. So Zepa had 6 fallen already in July. 7 A. Yes, in July, on the 29th of July. And it 8 was on the 26th that I reached Zepa. 9 JUDGE WALD: Of September. 10 A. In September I left for TuzlaSeptember that I left for Tuzla. 12 JUDGE WALD: Just to clarify it once and for 13 all, when did you get to Zepa? When did you reach 14 Zepa? 15 A. I reached Zepa on the 26th of July, around 16 3.00 in the afternoon. 17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So my question, then, 18 still is: Was Zepa under siege, or had it already 19 surrendered by the time you got there? 20 A. No. No, it had not surrendered yet on the 21 26th of the July. The last convoy left Zepa on the 22 26th. 23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So do you know how long 24 Zepa had been under military siege by the time you got 25 there? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2494 Questioned by the Court 1 JUDGE WALD: Do you have any knowledge of how 2 long it had been under siege before that? 3 A. It wasn't on the 29th. Zepa fell on the 29th 4 of July, not September. 5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I see. So Zepa had 6 fallen already in July. 7 A. Yes, in July, on the 29th of July. And it 8 was on the 26th that I reached Zepa. 9 JUDGE WALD: Of September. 10 A. In September I left for TuzlaSeptember that I left for Tuzla. 12 JUDGE WALD: Just to clarify it once and for 13 all, when did you get to Zepa? When did you reach 14 Zepa? 15 A. I reached Zepa on the 26th of July, around 16 3.00 in the afternoon. 17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So my question, then, 18 still is: Was Zepa under siege, or had it already 19 surrendered by the time you got there? 20 A. No. No, it had not surrendered yet on the 21 26th of the July. The last convoy left Zepa on the 22 26th. 23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So do you know how long 24 Zepa had been under military siege by the time you got 25 there? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2495 Questioned by the Court 1 A. Until the 29th. 2 JUDGE WALD: No, but when had it begun? Do 3 you know when the siege, the military siege, of Zepa 4 had begun? 5 A. It began, I mean the attack on Zepa, as soon 6 as Srebrenica fell. 7 JUDGE WALD: So that would have been around 8 July 10th or llth. Okay. Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're 10 welcome. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness J, 12 let me turn the situation a little bit. You said that 13 the fate had it so that you survived. Let me try to 14 tell you something. You are here with us, you have 15 told us a story, and you have a story to tell to the 16 world so that these terrible things could be avoided, 17 independent of who is responsible for them. 18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank 19 you, Your Honour, very much. I'm in favour of that as 20 well. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm 22 very glad to hear that we share the same opinion, 23 Witness J. Thank you very much for coming here to 24 testify. We hope that you will continue to be witness 25 of these terrible events, and I hope that by doing so Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2495 Questioned by the Court 1 A. Until the 29th. 2 JUDGE WALD: No, but when had it begun? Do 3 you know when the siege, the military siege, of Zepa 4 had begun? 5 A. It began, I mean the attack on Zepa, as soon 6 as Srebrenica fell. 7 JUDGE WALD: So that would have been around 8 July 10th or llth. Okay. Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're 10 welcome. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness J, 12 let me turn the situation a little bit. You said that 13 the fate had it so that you survived. Let me try to 14 tell you something. You are here with us, you have 15 told us a story, and you have a story to tell to the 16 world so that these terrible things could be avoided, 17 independent of who is responsible for them. 18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank 19 you, Your Honour, very much. I'm in favour of that as 20 well. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm 22 very glad to hear that we share the same opinion, 23 Witness J. Thank you very much for coming here to 24 testify. We hope that you will continue to be witness 25 of these terrible events, and I hope that by doing so Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2496 Questioned by the Court 1 you will do a great service to humanity. Thank you 2 very much once again. 3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, 4 Your Honour. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 6 I don't think we have any exhibits to take care of. 7 Mr. Petrusic, I don't think that there's 8 anything that we should settle in that respect. 9 Could the usher please show the witness out 10 of the courtroom. 11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer] 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, 13 what is next, or Mr. Cayley? 14 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry. You said "Mr. Harmon," 15 so I thought my colleague would answer. We do have 16 another witness, Mr. President, yes. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any 18 protective measures? 19 MR. CAYLEY: He will be known by a pseudonym, 20 and he will have the same protection as this last 21 witness. 22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the 23 conditions are the same as for this witness. 24 Mr. Petrusic. 25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We agree to Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2496 Questioned by the Court 1 you will do a great service to humanity. Thank you 2 very much once again. 3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, 4 Your Honour. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 6 I don't think we have any exhibits to take care of. 7 Mr. Petrusic, I don't think that there's 8 anything that we should settle in that respect. 9 Could the usher please show the witness out 10 of the courtroom. 11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer] 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, 13 what is next, or Mr. Cayley? 14 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry. You said "Mr. Harmon," 15 so I thought my colleague would answer. We do have 16 another witness, Mr. President, yes. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any 18 protective measures? 19 MR. CAYLEY: He will be known by a pseudonym, 20 and he will have the same protection as this last 21 witness. 22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the 23 conditions are the same as for this witness. 24 Mr. Petrusic. 25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We agree to Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2497 Questioned by the Court 1 that, Your Honour. 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 3 very much. 4 For the public, let me just say that it will 5 be a public session. 6 Mr. Cayley, you may sit down. 7 Witness J, please do not move. We will leave 8 the courtroom and you will leave the courtroom after 9 that. 10 For now, we will have a 20-minute break, 11 after which we will resume the hearing. 12 Recess taken at 10.54 a.m. 13 On resuming at 11.18 a.m. 14 [The witness entered court] 15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 16 morning. Can you hear me? 17 [Witness answered through interpreter] 18 THE WITNESS: Good morning. Yes, I can. 19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, 20 would you please read the solemn declaration that the 21 usher will give you. 22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will 23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth 25 WITNESS: WITNESS Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2497 Questioned by the Court 1 that, Your Honour. 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 3 very much. 4 For the public, let me just say that it will 5 be a public session. 6 Mr. Cayley, you may sit down. 7 Witness J, please do not move. We will leave 8 the courtroom and you will leave the courtroom after 9 that. 10 For now, we will have a 20-minute break, 11 after which we will resume the hearing. 12 Recess taken at 10.54 a.m. 13 On resuming at 11.18 a.m. 14 [The witness entered court] 15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 16 morning. Can you hear me? 17 [Witness answered through interpreter] 18 THE WITNESS: Good morning. Yes, I can. 19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, 20 would you please read the solemn declaration that the 21 usher will give you. 22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will 23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth 25 WITNESS: WITNESS Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2498 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 [Witness answered through interpreter] 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 3 you may be seated now. 4 Mr. Dubuisson. Mr. Dubuisson is going to 5 show you a piece of paper with your name written on 6 it. Could you please have a look at the piece of paper 7 and tell us by saying simply yes or no if this is, 8 indeed, your name. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this is 11 your name, Witness. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well 14 then, Witness, you will first answer questions that 15 will be put to you by Mr. Cayley who is on your 16 right-hand side. 17 Let me just thank you for coming to the 18 International Tribunal. 19 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. 20 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. 21 Examined by Mr. Cayley: 22 Q. Witness, for your protection, I will be 23 addressing you as Witness throughout your evidence. 24 Witness, you are Bosnian by nationality; is 25 that correct? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2498 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 [Witness answered through interpreter] 2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 3 you may be seated now. 4 Mr. Dubuisson. Mr. Dubuisson is going to 5 show you a piece of paper with your name written on 6 it. Could you please have a look at the piece of paper 7 and tell us by saying simply yes or no if this is, 8 indeed, your name. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this is 11 your name, Witness. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well 14 then, Witness, you will first answer questions that 15 will be put to you by Mr. Cayley who is on your 16 right-hand side. 17 Let me just thank you for coming to the 18 International Tribunal. 19 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. 20 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. 21 Examined by Mr. Cayley: 22 Q. Witness, for your protection, I will be 23 addressing you as Witness throughout your evidence. 24 Witness, you are Bosnian by nationality; is 25 that correct? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2499 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you were born a Muslim by faith; is that 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. In July of 1995, you were inside the 6 Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, in 1995, I was in Srebrenica. 8 Q. And at the time you were a member of the 9 Bosnian army inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. I was a member of the army of 12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. 13 Q. Inside the Srebrenica enclave, can you 14 describe to the Judges what kind of army the Bosnian 15 army was? 16 A. There was an army, but we didn't have much 17 weaponry. We started to defend ourselves in the war 18 with hunting rifles. And in doing so, we would seize 19 weapons from Bosnian Serbs from time to time, and we 20 would use those weapons to defend ourselves. 21 The soldiers that were in Srebrenica, I mean 22 the army that was in Srebrenica, was not a disciplined 23 army. The United Nations were there, and we were not 24 allowed to hold our lines because they had their 25 checkpoints. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2499 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you were born a Muslim by faith; is that 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. In July of 1995, you were inside the 6 Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, in 1995, I was in Srebrenica. 8 Q. And at the time you were a member of the 9 Bosnian army inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. I was a member of the army of 12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. 13 Q. Inside the Srebrenica enclave, can you 14 describe to the Judges what kind of army the Bosnian 15 army was? 16 A. There was an army, but we didn't have much 17 weaponry. We started to defend ourselves in the war 18 with hunting rifles. And in doing so, we would seize 19 weapons from Bosnian Serbs from time to time, and we 20 would use those weapons to defend ourselves. 21 The soldiers that were in Srebrenica, I mean 22 the army that was in Srebrenica, was not a disciplined 23 army. The United Nations were there, and we were not 24 allowed to hold our lines because they had their 25 checkpoints. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2500 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. Witness, did you have a uniform? 2 A. No. No. I never put on a uniform. I was 3 never issued with a uniform. 4 Q. What weapon were you armed with in July of 5 1995? 6 A. I didn't have any weapon. They were in 7 warehouses, what weapons there were. 8 Q. What was the name of the unit to which you 9 belonged, the name of the Bosnian army unit to which 10 you belonged? 11 A. 282nd Brigade. 12 Q. I want you now to think back to the of 13 July of 1995. And I think on that day, you set off 14 towards Jaglici; is that right? 15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. 16 Q. I think you then started to make your way in 17 a very large column towards Tuzla and the free 18 territory; is that right? 19 A. Yes, that's right. 20 Q. (redacted), 21 (redacted) 22 (redacted) 23 A. (redacted) 24 (redacted) 25 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2500 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Q. Witness, did you have a uniform? 2 A. No. No. I never put on a uniform. I was 3 never issued with a uniform. 4 Q. What weapon were you armed with in July of 5 1995? 6 A. I didn't have any weapon. They were in 7 warehouses, what weapons there were. 8 Q. What was the name of the unit to which you 9 belonged, the name of the Bosnian army unit to which 10 you belonged? 11 A. 282nd Brigade. 12 Q. I want you now to think back to the of 13 July of 1995. And I think on that day, you set off 14 towards Jaglici; is that right? 15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. 16 Q. I think you then started to make your way in 17 a very large column towards Tuzla and the free 18 territory; is that right? 19 A. Yes, that's right. 20 Q. (redacted), 21 (redacted) 22 (redacted) 23 A. (redacted) 24 (redacted) 25 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2501 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Prosecutor's Exhibit 2 Q. Now, Witness, I know that the journey through 3 the woods was a very difficult one and that there was 4 shooting and there was explosions, and a large number 5 of people were killed, but I would like you to move 6 forward in time to the point where you, and a large 7 group of other men, surrendered to the Bosnian Serbs. 8 MR. CAYLEY: But, first of all, if the 9 exhibit could be placed on the ELMO. 10 Q. And if you could indicate to the Judges what 11 is represented by the dotted line on that exhibit. 12 A. This is the village of Jaglici [indicates] 13 and this is where we crossed the line. There used to 14 be a UN checkpoint here, and to our right where we 15 crossed the line that was held by Bosnian Serbs. This 16 is where we crossed the line [indicates]. There were 17 many people in the column one by one. 18 We had set off through the woods in the 19 direction of Tuzla. I will show you the route we 20 took. This is the way where we went [indicates], and 21 this is just approximately. And we surrendered to the 22 Bosnian Serbs at Konjevic Polje at this place here. 23 This is where we crossed the asphalt road, and we were 24 assembled here on a meadow. 25 Q. And let the record show that the witness has Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2501 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Prosecutor's Exhibit 2 Q. Now, Witness, I know that the journey through 3 the woods was a very difficult one and that there was 4 shooting and there was explosions, and a large number 5 of people were killed, but I would like you to move 6 forward in time to the point where you, and a large 7 group of other men, surrendered to the Bosnian Serbs. 8 MR. CAYLEY: But, first of all, if the 9 exhibit could be placed on the ELMO. 10 Q. And if you could indicate to the Judges what 11 is represented by the dotted line on that exhibit. 12 A. This is the village of Jaglici [indicates] 13 and this is where we crossed the line. There used to 14 be a UN checkpoint here, and to our right where we 15 crossed the line that was held by Bosnian Serbs. This 16 is where we crossed the line [indicates]. There were 17 many people in the column one by one. 18 We had set off through the woods in the 19 direction of Tuzla. I will show you the route we 20 took. This is the way where we went [indicates], and 21 this is just approximately. And we surrendered to the 22 Bosnian Serbs at Konjevic Polje at this place here. 23 This is where we crossed the asphalt road, and we were 24 assembled here on a meadow. 25 Q. And let the record show that the witness has Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2502 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit that the dotted 2 line on that map represents the approximate route that 3 he took through the forest on the 12th and 13th of 4 July, and that where that dotted line bisects the road 5 between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, which runs through 6 Kravica, is the point at which he surrendered to the 7 Serbs on the 13th of July. 8 Now, Witness, if you could tell the Judges 9 what happened to you after you surrendered to the Serbs 10 on the 13th of July. And if you would speak for a 11 minute, minute and a half and then take a pause, I may 12 have a few questions to ask you to clarify your 13 testimony, or I may just ask you to proceed on with 14 your story. Can you do that? 15 A. Yes, I can. 16 After we crossed the asphalt road, they 17 searched us, and we were moving in a column one by 18 one. They were taking away our money, our gold, 19 watches; everything we had that was of any value. 20 We had backpacks with food, but none of us 21 had any weapons. Those who had weapons had thrown them 22 away in the woods. We didn't dare surrender with 23 weapons. 24 So we gathered in a meadow, and there were 25 quite the first column, and I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2502 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit that the dotted 2 line on that map represents the approximate route that 3 he took through the forest on the 12th and 13th of 4 July, and that where that dotted line bisects the road 5 between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, which runs through 6 Kravica, is the point at which he surrendered to the 7 Serbs on the 13th of July. 8 Now, Witness, if you could tell the Judges 9 what happened to you after you surrendered to the Serbs 10 on the 13th of July. And if you would speak for a 11 minute, minute and a half and then take a pause, I may 12 have a few questions to ask you to clarify your 13 testimony, or I may just ask you to proceed on with 14 your story. Can you do that? 15 A. Yes, I can. 16 After we crossed the asphalt road, they 17 searched us, and we were moving in a column one by 18 one. They were taking away our money, our gold, 19 watches; everything we had that was of any value. 20 We had backpacks with food, but none of us 21 had any weapons. Those who had weapons had thrown them 22 away in the woods. We didn't dare surrender with 23 weapons. 24 So we gathered in a meadow, and there were 25 quite the first column, and I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2503 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 think that we were about 1.000 in that column, 2 approximately. I cannot tell you the exact number of 3 people in the column at that moment, so this is just an 4 estimate. 5 They were standing around us, and we sat 6 down, one next to the other, and we were facing the 7 asphalt road. On my right-hand side, in a corner where 8 people were sitting, there was a tank, and on the right 9 side of the tank there was a Praga, which would, from 10 time to time, open fire and shell in the direction of 11 the woods. They were firing mortars but I couldn't see 12 them. They must have been near the houses that were to 13 my left side. 14 There were many wounded amongst us. There 15 were also children of maybe 14 or 15 years of age. 16 They selected younger people, and they also stopped 17 buses that were coming from the area of Potocari, 18 towards Kladanj, evacuating people. Those young boys 19 would be then put onto buses and sent towards Kladanj. 20 There were lots of wounded amongst us, and 21 they were being taken away to some houses that were 22 situated some 50 metres away from us, on our right-hand 23 side, maybe more, to protect them from the heat. It 24 was very hot on that day. 25 Then at one point they would sprinkle us with Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2503 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 think that we were about 1.000 in that column, 2 approximately. I cannot tell you the exact number of 3 people in the column at that moment, so this is just an 4 estimate. 5 They were standing around us, and we sat 6 down, one next to the other, and we were facing the 7 asphalt road. On my right-hand side, in a corner where 8 people were sitting, there was a tank, and on the right 9 side of the tank there was a Praga, which would, from 10 time to time, open fire and shell in the direction of 11 the woods. They were firing mortars but I couldn't see 12 them. They must have been near the houses that were to 13 my left side. 14 There were many wounded amongst us. There 15 were also children of maybe 14 or 15 years of age. 16 They selected younger people, and they also stopped 17 buses that were coming from the area of Potocari, 18 towards Kladanj, evacuating people. Those young boys 19 would be then put onto buses and sent towards Kladanj. 20 There were lots of wounded amongst us, and 21 they were being taken away to some houses that were 22 situated some 50 metres away from us, on our right-hand 23 side, maybe more, to protect them from the heat. It 24 was very hot on that day. 25 Then at one point they would sprinkle us with Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2504 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 water from a water tank; I remember they did that on 2 three occasions. From time to time somebody would go 3 to fetch water. Mostly it was younger boys who would 4 go to get water because they didn't allow older people 5 to leave the group. 6 We spent a couple of hours sitting in the 7 meadow, and then the second column arrived, the Bosnian 8 Serbs brought the second column of people. Some had 9 helmets, some had some kind of caps, multicoloured 10 uniforms, and they were armed with automatic weapons, ll automatic rifles. 12 On our left side, next to the houses, there 13 was an anti-aircraft gun, a three-barrelled 14 anti-aircraft gun, which was also firing in the 15 direction of the woods, where we had come from. 16 After that, after the second column had 17 arrived, I recognised two men who were from Skelani, 18 from my neighbourhood. They were two brothers, Ahmed 19 and Dzemo, and they were put away -- they were 20 separated and put next to the tank. I knew them 21 because they were my -- they knew them because they 22 were their neighbours. And the others were placed in 23 the same meadow where we were. 24 One man tried to escapeaccompanied a wounded man towards the house, which was Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2504 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 water from a water tank; I remember they did that on 2 three occasions. From time to time somebody would go 3 to fetch water. Mostly it was younger boys who would 4 go to get water because they didn't allow older people 5 to leave the group. 6 We spent a couple of hours sitting in the 7 meadow, and then the second column arrived, the Bosnian 8 Serbs brought the second column of people. Some had 9 helmets, some had some kind of caps, multicoloured 10 uniforms, and they were armed with automatic weapons, ll automatic rifles. 12 On our left side, next to the houses, there 13 was an anti-aircraft gun, a three-barrelled 14 anti-aircraft gun, which was also firing in the 15 direction of the woods, where we had come from. 16 After that, after the second column had 17 arrived, I recognised two men who were from Skelani, 18 from my neighbourhood. They were two brothers, Ahmed 19 and Dzemo, and they were put away -- they were 20 separated and put next to the tank. I knew them 21 because they were my -- they knew them because they 22 were their neighbours. And the others were placed in 23 the same meadow where we were. 24 One man tried to escapeaccompanied a wounded man towards the house, which was Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2505 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 on our right side, but they managed to catch him. They 2 captured him and they brought him to the tank, and the 3 one who was driving the tank came with his fist. The man fell down and fainted. 5 The other group, the people who had arrived 6 in the meantime, I don't know who they were, maybe some 7 members of the special forces from the Serbian armycould tell, they were respected by 9 others. I could tell by the attitude of other soldiers 10 that they were respected. They had kind of black 11 T-shirts with short sleeves; they had brand new boots, 12 uniforms. 13 Their commander, who was ahead of us, who was 14 standing in front of us, kept brandishing his knife and 15 he said that he would take revenge upon us for his 16 brother who had lost his life in the war. He didn't 17 touch anyone; he just played with his knife. But when 18 people would bring water, we were very thirsty, he 19 would fire a bullet or two from his automatic rifle to 20 calm us down because at that moment we would run 21 towards the water because we were thirsty. 22 The one who was wearing a black T-shirt, at 23 one point, took an automatic rifle, with a round clip 24 which can hold much more am unition, I don't know how 25 much exactly, he approached the soldier who had been Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2505 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 on our right side, but they managed to catch him. They 2 captured him and they brought him to the tank, and the 3 one who was driving the tank came with his fist. The man fell down and fainted. 5 The other group, the people who had arrived 6 in the meantime, I don't know who they were, maybe some 7 members of the special forces from the Serbian armycould tell, they were respected by 9 others. I could tell by the attitude of other soldiers 10 that they were respected. They had kind of black 11 T-shirts with short sleeves; they had brand new boots, 12 uniforms. 13 Their commander, who was ahead of us, who was 14 standing in front of us, kept brandishing his knife and 15 he said that he would take revenge upon us for his 16 brother who had lost his life in the war. He didn't 17 touch anyone; he just played with his knife. But when 18 people would bring water, we were very thirsty, he 19 would fire a bullet or two from his automatic rifle to 20 calm us down because at that moment we would run 21 towards the water because we were thirsty. 22 The one who was wearing a black T-shirt, at 23 one point, took an automatic rifle, with a round clip 24 which can hold much more am unition, I don't know how 25 much exactly, he approached the soldier who had been Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2506 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 hit near the tank and he stood above him and he simply 2 fired several bursts of gunfire in his chest. And then 3 he ordered two men from my group who were there in the 4 meadow, two Muslims, to come out and to throw him away 5 some 20 or 30 metres away from us in the meadow. 6 Q. Witness, that's a good point for you to 7 pause. I just have a number of questions to ask you, 8 to clarify what you've already said. 9 Now, you said in your evidence that when you 10 arrived at the meadow that "they searched us" and "they 11 were standing around". You mean by that Bosnian Serb 12 soldiers? 13 A. Yes, I mean the Bosnian Serb soldiers. They 14 searched us. They took everything of value, money, 15 gold, watches, valuables, and backpacks, and they threw 16 them all into a pile. They would search each of the 17 soldiers to make sure there were no weaponsthe meadow; we were surrounded to make 19 sure that we wouldn't disperse. 20 Q. Now, these Bosnian Serb soldiers, how were 21 they dressed? 22 A. They had camouflage uniforms on. Some of 23 them had helmets, some had caps, some had nothing on 24 their heads, like me, for instance. They had 25 bulletproof jackets; some were camouflage and some were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2506 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 hit near the tank and he stood above him and he simply 2 fired several bursts of gunfire in his chest. And then 3 he ordered two men from my group who were there in the 4 meadow, two Muslims, to come out and to throw him away 5 some 20 or 30 metres away from us in the meadow. 6 Q. Witness, that's a good point for you to 7 pause. I just have a number of questions to ask you, 8 to clarify what you've already said. 9 Now, you said in your evidence that when you 10 arrived at the meadow that "they searched us" and "they 11 were standing around". You mean by that Bosnian Serb 12 soldiers? 13 A. Yes, I mean the Bosnian Serb soldiers. They 14 searched us. They took everything of value, money, 15 gold, watches, valuables, and backpacks, and they threw 16 them all into a pile. They would search each of the 17 soldiers to make sure there were no weaponsthe meadow; we were surrounded to make 19 sure that we wouldn't disperse. 20 Q. Now, these Bosnian Serb soldiers, how were 21 they dressed? 22 A. They had camouflage uniforms on. Some of 23 them had helmets, some had caps, some had nothing on 24 their heads, like me, for instance. They had 25 bulletproof jackets; some were camouflage and some were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2507 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 SMB or olive-grey. 2 Q. Then you described another unit that were 3 wearing black uniforms and you said that that unit was 4 respected by the other soldiers. How long after you 5 arrived in the meadow did the soldiers that were 6 dressed in black arrive? 7 A. A couple of hours later, something like 8 that. That's my impression, very approximately. 9 Q. Now, the soldier who shot the man next to the 10 tank, how was he dressed? 11 A. As I said, he took an automatic rifle from 12 the man who was playing around with the knife and he 13 killed this man of ours, a Muslim. He had a black, 14 short-sleeved T-shirt on him and the trousers were 15 camouflage; he had new boots. So that as far as I 16 could have noticed, their own soldiers held them in 17 high esteem. They were valued more than ordinary 18 soldiers. 19 Q. How, to the best of your memory, were all of 20 the Muslim men who were sitting in that meadow dressed? 21 A. They were all in civilian clothes. I didn't 22 notice anyone wearing a camouflage uniform or a part of 23 a military uniform. They were all in civilian 24 clothes. 25 Q. Were there people amongst you that were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2507 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 SMB or olive-grey. 2 Q. Then you described another unit that were 3 wearing black uniforms and you said that that unit was 4 respected by the other soldiers. How long after you 5 arrived in the meadow did the soldiers that were 6 dressed in black arrive? 7 A. A couple of hours later, something like 8 that. That's my impression, very approximately. 9 Q. Now, the soldier who shot the man next to the 10 tank, how was he dressed? 11 A. As I said, he took an automatic rifle from 12 the man who was playing around with the knife and he 13 killed this man of ours, a Muslim. He had a black, 14 short-sleeved T-shirt on him and the trousers were 15 camouflage; he had new boots. So that as far as I 16 could have noticed, their own soldiers held them in 17 high esteem. They were valued more than ordinary 18 soldiers. 19 Q. How, to the best of your memory, were all of 20 the Muslim men who were sitting in that meadow dressed? 21 A. They were all in civilian clothes. I didn't 22 notice anyone wearing a camouflage uniform or a part of 23 a military uniform. They were all in civilian 24 clothes. 25 Q. Were there people amongst you that were Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2508 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 wounded? 2 A. There were. There were wounded. 3 Q. After a couple of hours, what was the state 4 of these wounded? 5 A. Some of those wounded, because it was 6 extremely hot, as I just said, they sprayed us with 7 water from a tank on three occasions, they cooled us 8 off so we wouldn't faint, and these wounded men, I saw 9 quite a number of them faint. And whoever was next to 10 them would pour water over them. 11 Q. Now, after the arrival of the second group of 12 Muslim men, can you estimate how many men there were in 13 the meadow? 14 A. You mean in all? 15 Q. Approximately how many men there were in the 16 meadow. 17 A. Perhaps around 3.500 to 4.000, that's my 18 estimate, maybe 3.000, 3.500, 4.000. I don't know 19 exactly. I didn't count them. 20 Q. After the men in the black uniform, the 21 Bosnian Serb soldiers in the black uniforms had 22 arrived, what is the next significant event that you 23 remember? 24 A. We were all facing the road in the meadow and 25 watching to see what would happen to us. We were all Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2508 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 wounded? 2 A. There were. There were wounded. 3 Q. After a couple of hours, what was the state 4 of these wounded? 5 A. Some of those wounded, because it was 6 extremely hot, as I just said, they sprayed us with 7 water from a tank on three occasions, they cooled us 8 off so we wouldn't faint, and these wounded men, I saw 9 quite a number of them faint. And whoever was next to 10 them would pour water over them. 11 Q. Now, after the arrival of the second group of 12 Muslim men, can you estimate how many men there were in 13 the meadow? 14 A. You mean in all? 15 Q. Approximately how many men there were in the 16 meadow. 17 A. Perhaps around 3.500 to 4.000, that's my 18 estimate, maybe 3.000, 3.500, 4.000. I don't know 19 exactly. I didn't count them. 20 Q. After the men in the black uniform, the 21 Bosnian Serb soldiers in the black uniforms had 22 arrived, what is the next significant event that you 23 remember? 24 A. We were all facing the road in the meadow and 25 watching to see what would happen to us. We were all Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2509 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 in great fear and panic. The tank driver climbed the 2 anti-aircraft gun and pointed towards us as if he would 3 shoot, but he didn't. He would merely intimidate us. 4 And then buses from Srebrenica arrived with 5 the women, children, and the elderly, heading towards 6 Kladanj, and I recognised a number of women in the 7 buses as they went by. And the younger persons, there 8 were some girls in the meadows too. The buses would be 9 halted and they would be boarded onto the buses, and 10 they left towards Kladanj. 11 After that, after a while, I don't know how 12 long, General Mladic arrived with his bodyguards, maybe 13 five or six men, and he stayed there for maybe 10 or 15 14 minutes in the meadow, roughly. 15 Q. Did General Mladic say anything to you while 16 he was in the meadow? 17 A. He addressed us. I cannot remember the exact 18 words he used. He addressed us, saying that nothing 19 wrong would happen, not to be afraid, that they were 20 good, that not a hair on a head would be hurt, that we 21 would all be exchanged for their Serbs, that we would 22 be evacuated to Tuzla or Kladanj, that we would all 23 rejoin our families in safety, and that we should not 24 worry at all. 25 Q. After General Mladic left, do you recall what Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2509 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 in great fear and panic. The tank driver climbed the 2 anti-aircraft gun and pointed towards us as if he would 3 shoot, but he didn't. He would merely intimidate us. 4 And then buses from Srebrenica arrived with 5 the women, children, and the elderly, heading towards 6 Kladanj, and I recognised a number of women in the 7 buses as they went by. And the younger persons, there 8 were some girls in the meadows too. The buses would be 9 halted and they would be boarded onto the buses, and 10 they left towards Kladanj. 11 After that, after a while, I don't know how 12 long, General Mladic arrived with his bodyguards, maybe 13 five or six men, and he stayed there for maybe 10 or 15 14 minutes in the meadow, roughly. 15 Q. Did General Mladic say anything to you while 16 he was in the meadow? 17 A. He addressed us. I cannot remember the exact 18 words he used. He addressed us, saying that nothing 19 wrong would happen, not to be afraid, that they were 20 good, that not a hair on a head would be hurt, that we 21 would all be exchanged for their Serbs, that we would 22 be evacuated to Tuzla or Kladanj, that we would all 23 rejoin our families in safety, and that we should not 24 worry at all. 25 Q. After General Mladic left, do you recall what Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2510 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 happened to you next? 2 A. After that, I don't know after how long 3 exactly, this com ander who was standing in front of us 4 all that time with a knife in his hand, he would select 5 us, the more able-bodied amongst us, and he would say, 6 "You, you, and you," pointing a finger at us, and we 7 would go out and he would say that we would be 8 exchanged for their Serbs, "who was imprisoned by your 9 Muslims," as he said. "we're exchanging you for our 10 Serbs," that's what he said to us. 11 And then we got to the road. Buses were 12 waiting for us, two to three buses. I was among those 13 who were in the bus. We were loaded, very many of us. 14 It was so hot, it was stifling, and I noticed 15 im ediately that the bus wasn't taking us towards 16 Konjevic Polje or Kladanj, but rather that we were 17 going in the direction of Bratunac. And then after I 18 don't know how many minutes, it wasn't a long ride, the 19 bus took a turning to the right and they drove us in 20 front of a warehouse of some sort. That was Kravica. 21 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/3. If that could be placed on 23 the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher. 24 Q. Witness, do you recognise this place? Can 25 you just identify the location? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2510 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 happened to you next? 2 A. After that, I don't know after how long 3 exactly, this com ander who was standing in front of us 4 all that time with a knife in his hand, he would select 5 us, the more able-bodied amongst us, and he would say, 6 "You, you, and you," pointing a finger at us, and we 7 would go out and he would say that we would be 8 exchanged for their Serbs, "who was imprisoned by your 9 Muslims," as he said. "we're exchanging you for our 10 Serbs," that's what he said to us. 11 And then we got to the road. Buses were 12 waiting for us, two to three buses. I was among those 13 who were in the bus. We were loaded, very many of us. 14 It was so hot, it was stifling, and I noticed 15 im ediately that the bus wasn't taking us towards 16 Konjevic Polje or Kladanj, but rather that we were 17 going in the direction of Bratunac. And then after I 18 don't know how many minutes, it wasn't a long ride, the 19 bus took a turning to the right and they drove us in 20 front of a warehouse of some sort. That was Kravica. 21 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/3. If that could be placed on 23 the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher. 24 Q. Witness, do you recognise this place? Can 25 you just identify the location? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2511 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. I know this place very well. I'll show you 2 now where they took us and where we got off. 3 Q. If you could just wait one moment, Witness. 4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness -- 5 Q. Could you tell the Judges the name of this 6 place, if you know? 7 A. This place is called Kravica. Before the 8 war, in peacetime, I would pass by here often, but I 9 never noticed those warehouses then. I know that I was 10 close to Kravica. Maybe this was not the centre of 11 Kravica that I was familiar with. I think this place 12 is called Sandici or Kravica, between Konjevic Polje 13 and Sandici. And so we were driven there to Kravica, 14 to these warehouses. 15 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be 16 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 17 Q. Now, you said, Witness, in your evidence, 18 that you thought that you were being taken to the free 19 territory, you were taken to be exchanged. But then 20 you realised that the buses turned in the wrong 21 direction and went to Bratunac. Could you indicate to 22 the Judges in which direction you drove when the buses 23 left on the map that you see in front of you? 24 A. From here towards Bratunac [indicates]. That 25 was the direction we took. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2511 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. I know this place very well. I'll show you 2 now where they took us and where we got off. 3 Q. If you could just wait one moment, Witness. 4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness -- 5 Q. Could you tell the Judges the name of this 6 place, if you know? 7 A. This place is called Kravica. Before the 8 war, in peacetime, I would pass by here often, but I 9 never noticed those warehouses then. I know that I was 10 close to Kravica. Maybe this was not the centre of 11 Kravica that I was familiar with. I think this place 12 is called Sandici or Kravica, between Konjevic Polje 13 and Sandici. And so we were driven there to Kravica, 14 to these warehouses. 15 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be 16 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 17 Q. Now, you said, Witness, in your evidence, 18 that you thought that you were being taken to the free 19 territory, you were taken to be exchanged. But then 20 you realised that the buses turned in the wrong 21 direction and went to Bratunac. Could you indicate to 22 the Judges in which direction you drove when the buses 23 left on the map that you see in front of you? 24 A. From here towards Bratunac [indicates]. That 25 was the direction we took. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2512 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that on 2 Prosecutor's Exhibit that the witness travelled 3 from the dotted line that crosses the road between 4 Konjevic Polje and Bratunac to Kravica. 5 Q. And after you'd been told that you were to be 6 exchanged, where did you think that you should have 7 been going? Where should the Serbs have taken you if 8 they were to exchange you? 9 A. Towards Kladanj [indicates]. In this 10 direction. 11 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on 12 Prosecutor's Exhibit that the witness is 13 indicating from where the dotted line bisects the road 14 at Konjevic Polje towards Konjevic Polje. And, in 15 fact, the direction is indicated by an arrow pointing 16 towards Konjevic Polje. 17 If the witness could now be shown a new 18 exhibit which is 1/19. 19 Mr. Registrar, on this exhibit, the witness 20 has placed his name and signed it because it was 21 attached to a statement. So if the redacted copy to be 22 placed on the ELMO and the copy with the signature and 23 the name of the witness can be placed in front of the 24 witness, that way the witness will remain protected. 25 Q. Now, Witness, this, I believe, is a diagram Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2512 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that on 2 Prosecutor's Exhibit that the witness travelled 3 from the dotted line that crosses the road between 4 Konjevic Polje and Bratunac to Kravica. 5 Q. And after you'd been told that you were to be 6 exchanged, where did you think that you should have 7 been going? Where should the Serbs have taken you if 8 they were to exchange you? 9 A. Towards Kladanj [indicates]. In this 10 direction. 11 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on 12 Prosecutor's Exhibit that the witness is 13 indicating from where the dotted line bisects the road 14 at Konjevic Polje towards Konjevic Polje. And, in 15 fact, the direction is indicated by an arrow pointing 16 towards Konjevic Polje. 17 If the witness could now be shown a new 18 exhibit which is 1/19. 19 Mr. Registrar, on this exhibit, the witness 20 has placed his name and signed it because it was 21 attached to a statement. So if the redacted copy to be 22 placed on the ELMO and the copy with the signature and 23 the name of the witness can be placed in front of the 24 witness, that way the witness will remain protected. 25 Q. Now, Witness, this, I believe, is a diagram Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2513 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 that you drew for the investigators from the Office of 2 the Prosecutor in 1998 showing the approximate 3 locations of buildings at the Kravica warehouse 4 complex; is that right? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. Could you indicate, first of all, to the 7 Judges, the building that you were taken into by just 8 pointing to that building? 9 A. I can [indicates]. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on 11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19 that the witness pointed to 12 the large rectangle nearest the road between Konjevic 13 Polje and Bratunac which is parallel to that road and 14 has two smaller boxes beneath it. 15 Q. The two smaller boxes, Witness, one with the 16 cross in it, could you inform the Judges what they are 17 below the building to which you were taken? 18 A. What do you mean below the building? Above 19 the building? 20 Q. There's a box which indicates the factory 21 into which you were taken. Below that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. There are two small boxes, and one has a 24 cross inside it. Can you explain to the Judges what 25 they represent? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2513 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 that you drew for the investigators from the Office of 2 the Prosecutor in 1998 showing the approximate 3 locations of buildings at the Kravica warehouse 4 complex; is that right? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. Could you indicate, first of all, to the 7 Judges, the building that you were taken into by just 8 pointing to that building? 9 A. I can [indicates]. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on 11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19 that the witness pointed to 12 the large rectangle nearest the road between Konjevic 13 Polje and Bratunac which is parallel to that road and 14 has two smaller boxes beneath it. 15 Q. The two smaller boxes, Witness, one with the 16 cross in it, could you inform the Judges what they are 17 below the building to which you were taken? 18 A. What do you mean below the building? Above 19 the building? 20 Q. There's a box which indicates the factory 21 into which you were taken. Below that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. There are two small boxes, and one has a 24 cross inside it. Can you explain to the Judges what 25 they represent? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2514 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. These are buses [indicates] that drove us 2 there. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 4 three small rectangular boxes on this diagram, on 5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19, that the witness has 6 indicated are buses. 7 Q. Now, the box with the cross inside it, what 8 does the cross represent? 9 A. This is the bus [indicates] that I was in. 10 And when they quickly ordered us to get off as quickly 11 as we could and enter the warehouse, there's an opening 12 here, and that is the one I went through. So they 13 unloaded us there, and we were told to get inside as 14 quickly as we possibly could. 15 MR. CAYLEY: And finally if the witness could 16 be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/1. And if that could 17 be placed on the ELMO. 18 Q. Now, do you remember, Witness, yesterday I 19 showed you this photograph, and I indicated to you that 20 it was aerial imagery that had been taken on the 13th 21 of July of 1995 at the Kravica warehouse at the time 22 that you were there. 23 The two white boxes below the warehouse, can 24 you tell the Judges what you told me they were 25 yesterday when you saw this photograph? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2514 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. These are buses [indicates] that drove us 2 there. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 4 three small rectangular boxes on this diagram, on 5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19, that the witness has 6 indicated are buses. 7 Q. Now, the box with the cross inside it, what 8 does the cross represent? 9 A. This is the bus [indicates] that I was in. 10 And when they quickly ordered us to get off as quickly 11 as we could and enter the warehouse, there's an opening 12 here, and that is the one I went through. So they 13 unloaded us there, and we were told to get inside as 14 quickly as we possibly could. 15 MR. CAYLEY: And finally if the witness could 16 be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/1. And if that could 17 be placed on the ELMO. 18 Q. Now, do you remember, Witness, yesterday I 19 showed you this photograph, and I indicated to you that 20 it was aerial imagery that had been taken on the 13th 21 of July of 1995 at the Kravica warehouse at the time 22 that you were there. 23 The two white boxes below the warehouse, can 24 you tell the Judges what you told me they were 25 yesterday when you saw this photograph? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2515 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. There are two buses here [indicates], and we 2 came from this direction [indicates]. Then we turned 3 right and we passed this warehouse [indicates], then 4 another right turn and then a left turn. When I got 5 off, I saw some warehouses were there. We were 6 unloaded from the buses and we went inside, and I 7 confirm, personally, that that is the exact spot where 8 I was. I was in that warehouse here just in front of 9 this first bus I got off and went in. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 11 witness, although I think it's quite clear from the 12 transcript, identified that the two rectangular white 13 boxes im ediately in front of the warehouse are the 14 buses which he drew on the diagram which he provided to 15 the Office of the Prosecutor. And that he confirmed 16 that the bus on the right-hand side of the photograph 17 is the bus from which he alighted and that is where he 18 entered into the warehouse. 19 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now have, I think, 20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. 21 Q. Now, Witness, what is this a photograph of? 22 A. It's the warehouse that I was in. 23 Q. Can you indicate the door through which you 24 entered the warehouse? 25 A. I can [indicates]. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2515 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. There are two buses here [indicates], and we 2 came from this direction [indicates]. Then we turned 3 right and we passed this warehouse [indicates], then 4 another right turn and then a left turn. When I got 5 off, I saw some warehouses were there. We were 6 unloaded from the buses and we went inside, and I 7 confirm, personally, that that is the exact spot where 8 I was. I was in that warehouse here just in front of 9 this first bus I got off and went in. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 11 witness, although I think it's quite clear from the 12 transcript, identified that the two rectangular white 13 boxes im ediately in front of the warehouse are the 14 buses which he drew on the diagram which he provided to 15 the Office of the Prosecutor. And that he confirmed 16 that the bus on the right-hand side of the photograph 17 is the bus from which he alighted and that is where he 18 entered into the warehouse. 19 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now have, I think, 20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. 21 Q. Now, Witness, what is this a photograph of? 22 A. It's the warehouse that I was in. 23 Q. Can you indicate the door through which you 24 entered the warehouse? 25 A. I can [indicates]. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2516 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 2 witness is indicating the entrance on the extreme left 3 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, it's on the extreme left 4 of one of three entrances that are joined together. 5 Q. Witness, were there any? 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, 7 Mr. Cayley, for interrupting you. I have a small point 8 of clarification. Can we go back to Exhibit 8/l? I 9 think that the usher has that exhibit. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, that's the aerial 11 photograph. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could it be 13 possible to ask the witness where was the door of the 14 bus through which he got on and got off the bus. On 15 what side was it? 16 MR. CAYLEY: 17 Q. Witness, if you understood that question, 18 could you do as the President asked and indicate the 19 door on the bus from which you alighted into the 20 factory? 21 A. It was on the right-hand side. I can show 22 you on the photograph. 23 Q. Please. 24 A. [Indicates] 25 MR. CAYLEY: Although I think the point is a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2516 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 2 witness is indicating the entrance on the extreme left 3 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, it's on the extreme left 4 of one of three entrances that are joined together. 5 Q. Witness, were there any? 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, 7 Mr. Cayley, for interrupting you. I have a small point 8 of clarification. Can we go back to Exhibit 8/l? I 9 think that the usher has that exhibit. 10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, that's the aerial 11 photograph. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could it be 13 possible to ask the witness where was the door of the 14 bus through which he got on and got off the bus. On 15 what side was it? 16 MR. CAYLEY: 17 Q. Witness, if you understood that question, 18 could you do as the President asked and indicate the 19 door on the bus from which you alighted into the 20 factory? 21 A. It was on the right-hand side. I can show 22 you on the photograph. 23 Q. Please. 24 A. [Indicates] 25 MR. CAYLEY: Although I think the point is a Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2517 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 little large, the witness is indicating that the door 2 and, indeed, said the door right-hand side of the bus. That's on Prosecutor's 4 Exhibit 8/1. 5 MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4 6 could be placed on the ELMO again. 7 Q. Now, Witness, you've just explained to the 8 Judges that you went into the warehouse on the 9 left-hand side. And now I have a question for you: 10 Were there Bosnian Serb soldiers in and around the 11 warehouse? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could you explain to the Judges how those 14 soldiers were dressed? 15 A. I didn't know. When I entered the hangar, I 16 didn't know that there were Bosnian Serb soldiers on 17 guard duty around there. But when I escaped from the 18 hangar, I jumped out of the window of the hangar, then 19 I saw that there were guards. And I jumped out during 20 the night, and I didn't see how they were dressed. I 21 just saw those who were in front entering the warehouse 22 during the daytime. They had camouflage uniforms, but 23 one of them had a blue UN helmet on his head and they 24 had flak jackets on. 25 Q. So these were Bosnian Serb soldiers that you Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case N0. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2517 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 little large, the witness is indicating that the door 2 and, indeed, said the door right-hand side of the bus. That's on Prosecutor's 4 Exhibit 8/1. 5 MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4 6 could be placed on the ELMO again. 7 Q. Now, Witness, you've just explained to the 8 Judges that you went into the warehouse on the 9 left-hand side. And now I have a question for you: 10 Were there Bosnian Serb soldiers in and around the 11 warehouse? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could you explain to the Judges how those 14 soldiers were dressed? 15 A. I didn't know. When I entered the hangar, I 16 didn't know that there were Bosnian Serb soldiers on 17 guard duty around there. But when I escaped from the 18 hangar, I jumped out of the window of the hangar, then 19 I saw that there were guards. And I jumped out during 20 the night, and I didn't see how they were dressed. I 21 just saw those who were in front entering the warehouse 22 during the daytime. They had camouflage uniforms, but 23 one of them had a blue UN helmet on his head and they 24 had flak jackets on. 25 Q. So these were Bosnian Serb soldiers that you Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case N0. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2518 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 could see as you were looking outwards from the inside 2 of the factory? 3 A. Yes. And who would enter inside while we 4 could see, it was still daylight. 5 Q. Now, after you entered the factory, what did 6 you do? 7 A. They shoved us into this warehouse. Where I 8 was, it was full of men so that I was somewhere in the 9 middle. I don't know exactly, as far as I could 10 notice. They ordered us to sit down. We sat down as 11 we could, one next to another. 12 After that, I could see two younger men. 13 They provoked us. They demanded that they make a 14 confession they didn't know. 15 After that, they brought them back to where 16 they were. Then they took watches off people; gold, 17 money, whatever people had, and they threatened us. 18 If somebody failed to give up his money and 19 money was found on him, he would be killed. And people 20 who had anything, one by one, they went up and handed 21 it over. I, too, personally, had little change, 22 although they had taken my ring in the meadow, not my 23 wedding ring, though, I had that too. I said it was a 24 souvenir from my girlfriend, because it wasn't a 25 wedding ring, it was a gold band. And I gave them my Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2518 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 could see as you were looking outwards from the inside 2 of the factory? 3 A. Yes. And who would enter inside while we 4 could see, it was still daylight. 5 Q. Now, after you entered the factory, what did 6 you do? 7 A. They shoved us into this warehouse. Where I 8 was, it was full of men so that I was somewhere in the 9 middle. I don't know exactly, as far as I could 10 notice. They ordered us to sit down. We sat down as 11 we could, one next to another. 12 After that, I could see two younger men. 13 They provoked us. They demanded that they make a 14 confession they didn't know. 15 After that, they brought them back to where 16 they were. Then they took watches off people; gold, 17 money, whatever people had, and they threatened us. 18 If somebody failed to give up his money and 19 money was found on him, he would be killed. And people 20 who had anything, one by one, they went up and handed 21 it over. I, too, personally, had little change, 22 although they had taken my ring in the meadow, not my 23 wedding ring, though, I had that too. I said it was a 24 souvenir from my girlfriend, because it wasn't a 25 wedding ring, it was a gold band. And I gave them my Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2519 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 watch and the chain and this gold band, everything I 2 had; I didn't have any money on me. And this applied 3 to everyone. Whoever had anything, they handed it 4 over. And they wrote it down on small bits of paper. 5 When I went up and handed over these 6 valuables, they would take down my name and surname, as 7 if they would be so nice as to return those things to 8 us one day, and then we would go back to the place 9 where we had been before. 10 Q. Now, you said in your evidence that "they 11 provoked us" and "they demanded that they make a 12 confession they didn't know". Now, are you saying that 13 Bosnian Serb soldiers demanded that Muslim men amongst 14 you make confessions? 15 A. Yes. They interrogated people, not many of 16 them. I saw two young men being taken out. They were 17 told to stand up against a wall. They shouted at 18 them. They asked them about some places, I don't know 19 which ones; I don't remember what we were interested 20 in. But these two young men, of course, didn't know 21 anything about that. They were not beaten; they were 22 brought back to their places. 23 From time to time they would bring water in 24 buckets, in white buckets, with Jupol letters written 25 on it, and we would then fight amongst ourselves for Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2519 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 watch and the chain and this gold band, everything I 2 had; I didn't have any money on me. And this applied 3 to everyone. Whoever had anything, they handed it 4 over. And they wrote it down on small bits of paper. 5 When I went up and handed over these 6 valuables, they would take down my name and surname, as 7 if they would be so nice as to return those things to 8 us one day, and then we would go back to the place 9 where we had been before. 10 Q. Now, you said in your evidence that "they 11 provoked us" and "they demanded that they make a 12 confession they didn't know". Now, are you saying that 13 Bosnian Serb soldiers demanded that Muslim men amongst 14 you make confessions? 15 A. Yes. They interrogated people, not many of 16 them. I saw two young men being taken out. They were 17 told to stand up against a wall. They shouted at 18 them. They asked them about some places, I don't know 19 which ones; I don't remember what we were interested 20 in. But these two young men, of course, didn't know 21 anything about that. They were not beaten; they were 22 brought back to their places. 23 From time to time they would bring water in 24 buckets, in white buckets, with Jupol letters written 25 on it, and we would then fight amongst ourselves for Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2520 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 this water. (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) because we were sitting behind and we 7 could never get any water. People would shout. We 8 were all very thirsty. We had not been drinking or 9 eating for quite some time. 10 Q. Witness, how full of men, how packed was the 11 section of the warehouse that you were in? 12 A. In my estimate, there were approximately 13 1.000, between 1.000 and 1.500 people, roughly. I'm 14 not sure either. Maybe less, maybe more. This is just 15 my rough estimate. This is how it seemed to me while I 16 was there, inside, but I was in fear. 17 Q. I understand that. How close was each man to 18 the other inside the warehouse? 19 A. One next to the other, shoulder by shoulder. 20 Q. So each man was touching the other inside the 21 factory building. There was no -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. There was no space between all of the men 24 inside the factory at all. 25 A. No, not at all. There was no space Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2520 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 this water. (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) because we were sitting behind and we 7 could never get any water. People would shout. We 8 were all very thirsty. We had not been drinking or 9 eating for quite some time. 10 Q. Witness, how full of men, how packed was the 11 section of the warehouse that you were in? 12 A. In my estimate, there were approximately 13 1.000, between 1.000 and 1.500 people, roughly. I'm 14 not sure either. Maybe less, maybe more. This is just 15 my rough estimate. This is how it seemed to me while I 16 was there, inside, but I was in fear. 17 Q. I understand that. How close was each man to 18 the other inside the warehouse? 19 A. One next to the other, shoulder by shoulder. 20 Q. So each man was touching the other inside the 21 factory building. There was no -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. There was no space between all of the men 24 inside the factory at all. 25 A. No, not at all. There was no space Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2521 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 whatsoever. People were touching each other, they were 2 sitting next to each other, so that nobody could walk 3 between two people. Only if you lean on one side, one 4 could perhaps walk slowly. 5 Q. What was the atmosphere like in the factory 6 at this time? How did you all feel? 7 A. Terrible is all that I can say. We were in 8 great panic, all of us. I was fearful. 9 When we were brought there, I knew what was 10 in store for us, I knew it already. I mean, as soon as 11 we were crowded into those buses and when I realised 12 that we were not going towards Tuzla but Bratunac, I 13 knew what was happening, what would happen, especially 14 when we were brought to the warehouse. 15 Q. Now, you've explained to the Judges that the 16 Bosnian Serb soldiers took your belongings, that some 17 interrogations took place. Can you recall what 18 happened after that? 19 A. Yes, I remember that very well. After that 20 the night fell, it was in the evening. When we came 21 there, it was still daylight. I don't know what time 22 it was but it was getting dark. 23 After it became dark, some shelling started. 24 I heard shots and I realised that shells were falling 25 around, and I heard a sizzling noise of shell Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2521 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 whatsoever. People were touching each other, they were 2 sitting next to each other, so that nobody could walk 3 between two people. Only if you lean on one side, one 4 could perhaps walk slowly. 5 Q. What was the atmosphere like in the factory 6 at this time? How did you all feel? 7 A. Terrible is all that I can say. We were in 8 great panic, all of us. I was fearful. 9 When we were brought there, I knew what was 10 in store for us, I knew it already. I mean, as soon as 11 we were crowded into those buses and when I realised 12 that we were not going towards Tuzla but Bratunac, I 13 knew what was happening, what would happen, especially 14 when we were brought to the warehouse. 15 Q. Now, you've explained to the Judges that the 16 Bosnian Serb soldiers took your belongings, that some 17 interrogations took place. Can you recall what 18 happened after that? 19 A. Yes, I remember that very well. After that 20 the night fell, it was in the evening. When we came 21 there, it was still daylight. I don't know what time 22 it was but it was getting dark. 23 After it became dark, some shelling started. 24 I heard shots and I realised that shells were falling 25 around, and I heard a sizzling noise of shell Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2522 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 fragment. And then they told us, "See how we're 2 guarding you? We're not hitting you, we're not beating 3 you. We're good to you. We'll let you go peacefully 4 towards Tuzla, and your people are now shooting at us 5 and they will not let you through peacefully." But I 6 cannot believe, and I still don't believe, that our 7 people were shooting at us. They didn't have any 8 mortars. While we were going through the woods, I 9 didn't see any mortar, any shells. We didn't have such 10 things. 11 So this created even greater panic, but after 12 a while everything became quiet. They would take out 13 two of our people, as if to -- they were saying that 14 they needed them to pick up their wounded members 15 because they didn't dare, they were afraid of being 16 shot. I didn't see those people, I didn't see the 17 people who were supposedly being brought by our people, 18 by Muslims. They were simply being taken out two by 19 two, and then they would be brought back. 20 So after a while, after everything went 21 quiet, they became very angry, the Bosnian Serbs. Four 22 or five of them would enter the warehouse, yelling at 23 us, shouting, cursing us, and this lasted for a while 24 and then they became quiet. Some of them wanted to 25 open fire on us, but there was one guy there who was Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2522 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 fragment. And then they told us, "See how we're 2 guarding you? We're not hitting you, we're not beating 3 you. We're good to you. We'll let you go peacefully 4 towards Tuzla, and your people are now shooting at us 5 and they will not let you through peacefully." But I 6 cannot believe, and I still don't believe, that our 7 people were shooting at us. They didn't have any 8 mortars. While we were going through the woods, I 9 didn't see any mortar, any shells. We didn't have such 10 things. 11 So this created even greater panic, but after 12 a while everything became quiet. They would take out 13 two of our people, as if to -- they were saying that 14 they needed them to pick up their wounded members 15 because they didn't dare, they were afraid of being 16 shot. I didn't see those people, I didn't see the 17 people who were supposedly being brought by our people, 18 by Muslims. They were simply being taken out two by 19 two, and then they would be brought back. 20 So after a while, after everything went 21 quiet, they became very angry, the Bosnian Serbs. Four 22 or five of them would enter the warehouse, yelling at 23 us, shouting, cursing us, and this lasted for a while 24 and then they became quiet. Some of them wanted to 25 open fire on us, but there was one guy there who was Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2523 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 wearing a multicoloured uniform and he had an automatic 2 rifle in his hands, and he said, "Do not touch these 3 people. It's not their fault. They're not guilty of 4 anything." 5 So this lasted for a while and then it became 6 dark. At one point, while I was still in the 7 warehouse, while it was still daylight -- I forgot to 8 mention this -- buses were passing by, from Potocari, 9 travelling in the direction of Kladanj, carrying women, 10 children, and elderly, people who were being ll evacuated. So while buses were passing by, everything 12 would be quiet. They didn't shout at us at that 13 moment, but after a bus had gone by they would start 14 yelling at us again. 15 And then as I told you, after it became dark, 16 one of them came in. He had a very long beard, dark 17 sunglasses, he had very long curly hair, and he was the 18 first one who opened fire from his automatic rifle on 19 us, and I think that maybe three or four of us fell 20 down immediately. The one wearing dark glasses was the 21 first one to have opened fire. As soon as that 22 happened, I threw myself on the ground and I fell down, 23 and im ediately after that chaos ensued. 24 Q. Now, Witness, I know that this was a terrible 25 scene, but as best you can, if you can explain to the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2523 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 wearing a multicoloured uniform and he had an automatic 2 rifle in his hands, and he said, "Do not touch these 3 people. It's not their fault. They're not guilty of 4 anything." 5 So this lasted for a while and then it became 6 dark. At one point, while I was still in the 7 warehouse, while it was still daylight -- I forgot to 8 mention this -- buses were passing by, from Potocari, 9 travelling in the direction of Kladanj, carrying women, 10 children, and elderly, people who were being ll evacuated. So while buses were passing by, everything 12 would be quiet. They didn't shout at us at that 13 moment, but after a bus had gone by they would start 14 yelling at us again. 15 And then as I told you, after it became dark, 16 one of them came in. He had a very long beard, dark 17 sunglasses, he had very long curly hair, and he was the 18 first one who opened fire from his automatic rifle on 19 us, and I think that maybe three or four of us fell 20 down immediately. The one wearing dark glasses was the 21 first one to have opened fire. As soon as that 22 happened, I threw myself on the ground and I fell down, 23 and im ediately after that chaos ensued. 24 Q. Now, Witness, I know that this was a terrible 25 scene, but as best you can, if you can explain to the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2524 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Judges what, if anything, you could see going on around 2 you and for how long the shooting continued inside the 3 warehouse. 4 A. While I was inside the warehouse, they fired 5 from all kinds of weapons. They first fired infantry 6 weapons, automatic rifles. Then they would stop doing 7 that. They would shoot for about half an hour, then 8 take a little rest, and then there would be a new 9 series of shooting. They would throw hand grenades 10 through the windows, and grenades fell some two or 11 three metres away from me. I could just feel the 12 explosion, the detonation, and as a result of that I 13 was injured by small shrapnel coming from those 14 shells. So I got wounded, I was injured, but I felt 15 well. I wasn't seriously injured. 16 People started screaming, and it was 17 terrible. It is hard for me to describe it. I haven't 18 seen anything like it in any of the horror movies that 19 I saw. This was far worse than any film. And this 20 lasted all night long, with short breaks. Bosnian 21 Serbs would take some rest, make a short break, and 22 then they would resume. 23 They opened fire from anti-aircraft weapons 24 that were positioned on the asphalt road, with Zoljas 25 as well. All I saw was some kind of lightning coming Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2524 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Judges what, if anything, you could see going on around 2 you and for how long the shooting continued inside the 3 warehouse. 4 A. While I was inside the warehouse, they fired 5 from all kinds of weapons. They first fired infantry 6 weapons, automatic rifles. Then they would stop doing 7 that. They would shoot for about half an hour, then 8 take a little rest, and then there would be a new 9 series of shooting. They would throw hand grenades 10 through the windows, and grenades fell some two or 11 three metres away from me. I could just feel the 12 explosion, the detonation, and as a result of that I 13 was injured by small shrapnel coming from those 14 shells. So I got wounded, I was injured, but I felt 15 well. I wasn't seriously injured. 16 People started screaming, and it was 17 terrible. It is hard for me to describe it. I haven't 18 seen anything like it in any of the horror movies that 19 I saw. This was far worse than any film. And this 20 lasted all night long, with short breaks. Bosnian 21 Serbs would take some rest, make a short break, and 22 then they would resume. 23 They opened fire from anti-aircraft weapons 24 that were positioned on the asphalt road, with Zoljas 25 as well. All I saw was some kind of lightning coming Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2525 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 from weapons. A bullet hit me which came from, I 2 believe, an infantry weapon, but I'm not sure. I was 3 hit above my right knee. It was a gunshot wound but I 4 didn't feel any pain. I was only concerned about 5 losing my limb. I was worried that it might be a 6 fragmentation bullet. 7 After one of such breaks, when things became 8 quiet, when they stopped shooting, I grabbed myself by 9 my heel. I just wanted to make sure that my heel was 10 there because for a while I couldn't feel it at all. 11 And probably, it turned out later on, when I had some 12 medical examination by medical specialists, that a 13 tendon had been cut, and this is why I couldn't feel my 14 heel for a while. But at the moment I grabbed it, I 15 realised it was still there. I was glad it was there. 16 I didn't feel any pain. It was just a slight burning 17 feeling, as if from a cigarette. 18 I don't know what time it was, but it was 19 past midnight, things went quiet, and at that moment I 20 tried to escape, I tried to leave the warehouse. There 21 was a kind of container to my left, a kind of container 22 that is part of a truck. It was not a big container. 23 It was on the lower part of the wall. And above the 24 container there was a window which was open, so I 25 climbed onto the window and I jumped through the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2525 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 from weapons. A bullet hit me which came from, I 2 believe, an infantry weapon, but I'm not sure. I was 3 hit above my right knee. It was a gunshot wound but I 4 didn't feel any pain. I was only concerned about 5 losing my limb. I was worried that it might be a 6 fragmentation bullet. 7 After one of such breaks, when things became 8 quiet, when they stopped shooting, I grabbed myself by 9 my heel. I just wanted to make sure that my heel was 10 there because for a while I couldn't feel it at all. 11 And probably, it turned out later on, when I had some 12 medical examination by medical specialists, that a 13 tendon had been cut, and this is why I couldn't feel my 14 heel for a while. But at the moment I grabbed it, I 15 realised it was still there. I was glad it was there. 16 I didn't feel any pain. It was just a slight burning 17 feeling, as if from a cigarette. 18 I don't know what time it was, but it was 19 past midnight, things went quiet, and at that moment I 20 tried to escape, I tried to leave the warehouse. There 21 was a kind of container to my left, a kind of container 22 that is part of a truck. It was not a big container. 23 It was on the lower part of the wall. And above the 24 container there was a window which was open, so I 25 climbed onto the window and I jumped through the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2526 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 window. 2 Q. Witness, can you describe the scene around 3 you as you made your way to the window? Can you 4 describe to the Judges what was on the floor all around 5 you? 6 A. (redacted) 7 (redacted) 8 (redacted) 9 (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted) 12 After the shooting, I felt a strange kind of 13 heat, warmth, which was actually coming from the blood 14 that covered the concrete floor, and I was stepping on 15 the dead people who were lying around. But there were 16 even people who were still alive, who were only 17 wounded, and as soon as I would step on him, I would 18 hear him cry, moan, because I was trying to move as 19 fast as I could. I could tell that people had been 20 completely disembodied, and I could feel bones of the 21 people that had been hit by those bursts of gunfire or 22 shells, I could feel their ribs crushing. And then I 23 would get up again and I would continue towards the 24 container. 25 So I first made a few attempts, trying to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2526 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 window. 2 Q. Witness, can you describe the scene around 3 you as you made your way to the window? Can you 4 describe to the Judges what was on the floor all around 5 you? 6 A. (redacted) 7 (redacted) 8 (redacted) 9 (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted) 12 After the shooting, I felt a strange kind of 13 heat, warmth, which was actually coming from the blood 14 that covered the concrete floor, and I was stepping on 15 the dead people who were lying around. But there were 16 even people who were still alive, who were only 17 wounded, and as soon as I would step on him, I would 18 hear him cry, moan, because I was trying to move as 19 fast as I could. I could tell that people had been 20 completely disembodied, and I could feel bones of the 21 people that had been hit by those bursts of gunfire or 22 shells, I could feel their ribs crushing. And then I 23 would get up again and I would continue towards the 24 container. 25 So I first made a few attempts, trying to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2527 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 figure out where exactly I could get out. 2 Q. Witness, if you could pause there. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would it be an 4 appropriate time to take a break? 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 6 Mr. Cayley. Thank you very much for your attention. 7 We will have a 20-minute break now -- I'm 8 sorry, half an hour break, a 30-minute break, so that 9 the witness can have some rest. 10 Recess taken at 12.22 p.m. 11 On resuming at 12.56 p.m. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 13 Mr. Cayley. You may continue. 14 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. 15 Q. Witness, before the breakpoint in time where you were trying to make your escape 17 from the factory, and I just want to ask one question 18 about a point in time before that. 19 Do you recall when you were taken from the 20 meadow to the factory at Kravica in a bus? 21 A. In the afternoon? 22 Q. Yes. Do you recall that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On the bus, were there any guards? Were 25 there any Bosnian Serb soldiers? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2527 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 figure out where exactly I could get out. 2 Q. Witness, if you could pause there. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would it be an 4 appropriate time to take a break? 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 6 Mr. Cayley. Thank you very much for your attention. 7 We will have a 20-minute break now -- I'm 8 sorry, half an hour break, a 30-minute break, so that 9 the witness can have some rest. 10 Recess taken at 12.22 p.m. 11 On resuming at 12.56 p.m. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 13 Mr. Cayley. You may continue. 14 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. 15 Q. Witness, before the breakpoint in time where you were trying to make your escape 17 from the factory, and I just want to ask one question 18 about a point in time before that. 19 Do you recall when you were taken from the 20 meadow to the factory at Kravica in a bus? 21 A. In the afternoon? 22 Q. Yes. Do you recall that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On the bus, were there any guards? Were 25 there any Bosnian Serb soldiers? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2528 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you describe how they were dressed? 3 A. In camouflage uniforms, camouflage. 4 Q. Now, you said, prior to the break, that there 5 was a container in the warehouse which you were going 6 to use to make good your escape. Can you explain to 7 the Judges whereabouts this container was located 8 inside the warehouse? 9 A. What do you mean? In relation to me, where I 10 was inside, or when you're looking inside from the 11 entrance? 12 Q. If you could explain where the container was 13 in relation to the back wall of the factory. 14 A. I was roughly in the middle, and if I were to 15 face the entrance that I passed through when I entered, 16 the container was to my left, diagonally. Above the 17 container were the windows, separated. 18 Q. Can you explain to the Judges how you used 19 this container to make your escape? 20 A. When everything was quiet againtried to save myself, to escape. So that I was 22 treading on dead people, on the wounded. I reached the 23 container. I looked to my right from where I had 24 entered the warehouse. I saw outside that they were -- 25 that there was some cigarettes lighted. All I could Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2528 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you describe how they were dressed? 3 A. In camouflage uniforms, camouflage. 4 Q. Now, you said, prior to the break, that there 5 was a container in the warehouse which you were going 6 to use to make good your escape. Can you explain to 7 the Judges whereabouts this container was located 8 inside the warehouse? 9 A. What do you mean? In relation to me, where I 10 was inside, or when you're looking inside from the 11 entrance? 12 Q. If you could explain where the container was 13 in relation to the back wall of the factory. 14 A. I was roughly in the middle, and if I were to 15 face the entrance that I passed through when I entered, 16 the container was to my left, diagonally. Above the 17 container were the windows, separated. 18 Q. Can you explain to the Judges how you used 19 this container to make your escape? 20 A. When everything was quiet againtried to save myself, to escape. So that I was 22 treading on dead people, on the wounded. I reached the 23 container. I looked to my right from where I had 24 entered the warehouse. I saw outside that they were -- 25 that there was some cigarettes lighted. All I could Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2529 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 see was the cigarettes alight. They were Bosnian Serbs 2 that were smoking cigarettes. 3 I jumped because the container wasn't very 4 high, so I was able to climb onto it. And then I 5 stepped on to the window and jumped outside to the 6 ground. 7 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, please. 9 Q. Was there anything covering the window that 10 you jumped through? 11 A. No, it was open. It wasn't covered with 12 anything. There were -- there was no glass in the 13 window. It was open. 14 MR. CAYLEY: If the exhibit could be placed 15 on the ELMO. 16 Q. If you can recall, could you indicate to the 17 Judges which window it was that you jumped through? 18 A. I don't know exactly which window now. I can 19 roughly show you. 20 Q. As best you can remember, Witness. 21 A. It may have been one of these two 22 [indicates], or maybe this one, the third one. One of 23 these. One of these three or four. I don't know 24 exactly which one it was because I wasn't looking when 25 I jumped. I didn't remember. I didn't turn around to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2529 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 see was the cigarettes alight. They were Bosnian Serbs 2 that were smoking cigarettes. 3 I jumped because the container wasn't very 4 high, so I was able to climb onto it. And then I 5 stepped on to the window and jumped outside to the 6 ground. 7 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, please. 9 Q. Was there anything covering the window that 10 you jumped through? 11 A. No, it was open. It wasn't covered with 12 anything. There were -- there was no glass in the 13 window. It was open. 14 MR. CAYLEY: If the exhibit could be placed 15 on the ELMO. 16 Q. If you can recall, could you indicate to the 17 Judges which window it was that you jumped through? 18 A. I don't know exactly which window now. I can 19 roughly show you. 20 Q. As best you can remember, Witness. 21 A. It may have been one of these two 22 [indicates], or maybe this one, the third one. One of 23 these. One of these three or four. I don't know 24 exactly which one it was because I wasn't looking when 25 I jumped. I didn't remember. I didn't turn around to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2530 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 look at the windows. 2 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show on 3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that the witness indicated 4 that the window that he jumped through was one -- I 5 think he was most certain about the three small windows 6 on the back of this building, so -- this is actually 7 the rear of the warehouse, but as this photograph 8 appears, the witness indicated that he jumped from one 9 of three or four small windows that can clearly be seen 10 on this photograph in the centre of the building. 11 Q. Now, Witness, can you describe to the Judges 12 what you could see around you at this point, if 13 anything at all? 14 A. When I jumped from the window and fell to the 15 ground, I just heard a voice from the corn field. I 16 didn't know that there were guards around, and that 17 there were guards. If I had known, I wouldn't have 18 dared jump. I wouldn't have had the courage, because 19 they would have killed me. 20 So when I jumped and fell to the ground, I 21 just heard a voice saying, "There's one that just 22 jumped." And then when I fell to the ground, I saw in 23 front of me, to my right, there were two dead men lying 24 on the ground. Most probably, they had also tried to 25 save their lives and escape and, unfortunately, they Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2530 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 look at the windows. 2 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show on 3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that the witness indicated 4 that the window that he jumped through was one -- I 5 think he was most certain about the three small windows 6 on the back of this building, so -- this is actually 7 the rear of the warehouse, but as this photograph 8 appears, the witness indicated that he jumped from one 9 of three or four small windows that can clearly be seen 10 on this photograph in the centre of the building. 11 Q. Now, Witness, can you describe to the Judges 12 what you could see around you at this point, if 13 anything at all? 14 A. When I jumped from the window and fell to the 15 ground, I just heard a voice from the corn field. I 16 didn't know that there were guards around, and that 17 there were guards. If I had known, I wouldn't have 18 dared jump. I wouldn't have had the courage, because 19 they would have killed me. 20 So when I jumped and fell to the ground, I 21 just heard a voice saying, "There's one that just 22 jumped." And then when I fell to the ground, I saw in 23 front of me, to my right, there were two dead men lying 24 on the ground. Most probably, they had also tried to 25 save their lives and escape and, unfortunately, they Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2531 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 failed. 2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you heard a voice, 3 let me get this right, coming from the corn field. 4 Can you indicate to the Judges on this 5 photograph, the corn field that you're referring to? 6 A. Yes, I can [indicates]. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 8 witness is identifying on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that 9 the piece of ground covered in snow which is 10 im ediately in front of the building and which has some 11 plants growing on it, corn, old corn growing on it is 12 the corn field to which the witness is referring. 13 Q. Now, it was summertime when you were there, 14 it was July. Was the corn higher than is shown in this 15 photograph? 16 A. Yes, of course it was much higher. And it 17 was still green, it hadn't ripened yet, but it was very 18 high. So if I were to stand up straight, though I 19 didn't stand up straight, if I were to stand up 20 straight, it would be higher than me, the maize. 21 Q. Now, you said today that you saw that there 22 were two dead men lying on the ground and that they had 23 tried to save their lives, and you stated 24 unfortunately, they failed. Can you recall what 25 happened to you next? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2531 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 failed. 2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you heard a voice, 3 let me get this right, coming from the corn field. 4 Can you indicate to the Judges on this 5 photograph, the corn field that you're referring to? 6 A. Yes, I can [indicates]. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 8 witness is identifying on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that 9 the piece of ground covered in snow which is 10 im ediately in front of the building and which has some 11 plants growing on it, corn, old corn growing on it is 12 the corn field to which the witness is referring. 13 Q. Now, it was summertime when you were there, 14 it was July. Was the corn higher than is shown in this 15 photograph? 16 A. Yes, of course it was much higher. And it 17 was still green, it hadn't ripened yet, but it was very 18 high. So if I were to stand up straight, though I 19 didn't stand up straight, if I were to stand up 20 straight, it would be higher than me, the maize. 21 Q. Now, you said today that you saw that there 22 were two dead men lying on the ground and that they had 23 tried to save their lives, and you stated 24 unfortunately, they failed. Can you recall what 25 happened to you next? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2532 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes, of course I remember. When I heard this 2 voice from the maize, "There's one that's just jumped 3 out," im ediately a man headed towards me through the 4 maize. And the searchlights went on, and the person 5 who passed by me, I could feel. I wasn't looking at 6 him. I was facing the wall from which I had just 7 jumped, the window, rather. He was carrying this 8 searchlight which had been switched on and, of course, 9 he carried a rifle, but I didn't see that. 10 But I could feel the flash of the light 11 against the wall. And this Serb soldier was 12 approaching me. I knew that was my end. I didn't try 13 to run, though I could have tried, but I didn't want 14 to. I waited for him to kill me. So that if I had 15 tried to run, he would have certainly killed me. There 16 were several of them. I waited for him to kill me. He 17 approached two metres from me and he shot a single 18 bullet at me, so that he hit me in the back, my right 19 shoulder blade. It was an entry and exit wound. I 20 kept quiet; I didn't speak or say anything. He asked 21 me, "Do you want more?" I remained silent, without 22 uttering a sound, to try and persuade him that I was 23 dead. I pretended to be dead, and of course I 24 succeeded, he really thought I was dead, but luckily I 25 was alive. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2532 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Yes, of course I remember. When I heard this 2 voice from the maize, "There's one that's just jumped 3 out," im ediately a man headed towards me through the 4 maize. And the searchlights went on, and the person 5 who passed by me, I could feel. I wasn't looking at 6 him. I was facing the wall from which I had just 7 jumped, the window, rather. He was carrying this 8 searchlight which had been switched on and, of course, 9 he carried a rifle, but I didn't see that. 10 But I could feel the flash of the light 11 against the wall. And this Serb soldier was 12 approaching me. I knew that was my end. I didn't try 13 to run, though I could have tried, but I didn't want 14 to. I waited for him to kill me. So that if I had 15 tried to run, he would have certainly killed me. There 16 were several of them. I waited for him to kill me. He 17 approached two metres from me and he shot a single 18 bullet at me, so that he hit me in the back, my right 19 shoulder blade. It was an entry and exit wound. I 20 kept quiet; I didn't speak or say anything. He asked 21 me, "Do you want more?" I remained silent, without 22 uttering a sound, to try and persuade him that I was 23 dead. I pretended to be dead, and of course I 24 succeeded, he really thought I was dead, but luckily I 25 was alive. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2533 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Then he cried out that his clip had fallen 2 out, so that a second man approached him and they found 3 the clip. And they left me, they went back into the 4 maize. 5 After that I continued to hear bursts of fire 6 and shots being fired at people in the warehouse where 7 I was, I heard them killing people there, so that I 8 remained there all night, until morning. 9 Q. Witness, if you could just pause there for a 10 moment. 11 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, which is the one I think that 13 was on the ELMO. 14 Q. If you could indicate to the Judges on this 15 photograph where you lay that night, approximately. 16 A. Here [indicates]. Here [indicates], perhaps 17 half a metre from the wall, here [indicates], on the 18 grass. To my left was the maize field. My head was 19 turned towards the river, or rather towards Kladanj, 20 and my legs towards Bratunac, shall I put it that way. 21 Q. That's very clear, Witness. 22 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 23 witness has indicated, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, 24 that he was lying on some grass between the factory 25 building and the cornfield, with his head facing Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2533 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Then he cried out that his clip had fallen 2 out, so that a second man approached him and they found 3 the clip. And they left me, they went back into the 4 maize. 5 After that I continued to hear bursts of fire 6 and shots being fired at people in the warehouse where 7 I was, I heard them killing people there, so that I 8 remained there all night, until morning. 9 Q. Witness, if you could just pause there for a 10 moment. 11 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, which is the one I think that 13 was on the ELMO. 14 Q. If you could indicate to the Judges on this 15 photograph where you lay that night, approximately. 16 A. Here [indicates]. Here [indicates], perhaps 17 half a metre from the wall, here [indicates], on the 18 grass. To my left was the maize field. My head was 19 turned towards the river, or rather towards Kladanj, 20 and my legs towards Bratunac, shall I put it that way. 21 Q. That's very clear, Witness. 22 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 23 witness has indicated, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, 24 that he was lying on some grass between the factory 25 building and the cornfield, with his head facing Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2534 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 towards the left-hand side of the photograph and his 2 legs to the right-hand side of the photograph. 3 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you stayed there 4 all night. Did anybody come and check your body during 5 the night? 6 A. No, no one came. 7 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you recall from 8 the next day, from the next morning, what happened to 9 you? 10 A. When it dawned? 11 Q. When it dawned, Witness, yes. 12 A. I was still lying there. I didn't dare move 13 because I was thinking and I was afraid that someone 14 might come to check whether I was still on that spot or 15 whether I had escaped. So when the sun rose, I heard 16 yells and a noise. People were yelling and asking 17 whether anyone inside was left alive, in the 18 warehouse. Of course there were some people who were 19 alive. So they promised them, I heard a voice saying, 20 the Bosnian Serbs promising and saying that the Red 21 Cross had come and that the first aid people had come 22 to take them to the hospital to treat them. And 23 whoever could walk and crawl out of the warehouse, they 24 came out. I didn't see them coming out. I didn't see 25 them taking them out. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2534 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 towards the left-hand side of the photograph and his 2 legs to the right-hand side of the photograph. 3 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you stayed there 4 all night. Did anybody come and check your body during 5 the night? 6 A. No, no one came. 7 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you recall from 8 the next day, from the next morning, what happened to 9 you? 10 A. When it dawned? 11 Q. When it dawned, Witness, yes. 12 A. I was still lying there. I didn't dare move 13 because I was thinking and I was afraid that someone 14 might come to check whether I was still on that spot or 15 whether I had escaped. So when the sun rose, I heard 16 yells and a noise. People were yelling and asking 17 whether anyone inside was left alive, in the 18 warehouse. Of course there were some people who were 19 alive. So they promised them, I heard a voice saying, 20 the Bosnian Serbs promising and saying that the Red 21 Cross had come and that the first aid people had come 22 to take them to the hospital to treat them. And 23 whoever could walk and crawl out of the warehouse, they 24 came out. I didn't see them coming out. I didn't see 25 them taking them out. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2535 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 And probably they sat down there somewhere; I 2 don't know because I couldn't see it. And then this 3 one man, of course I assume it was the leader who was 4 giving the orders, who was in com and, he ordered them 5 to sing songs, Serb songs, Chetnik songs, rather. As 6 far as I could hear, I remember well that they sang the 7 song "From Topolje to Ravne Gora, there are all our 8 guards of General Draza," and many other songs that I 9 had remembered but I've forgotten in the meantime. 10 After that, they went on singing for about 11 half an hour or an hour, I'm not sure, then I heard 12 bursts of fire. The fire went on for some time, I 13 don't know for how long, a certain amount of time. 14 They killed those wounded, and later I didn't hear 15 anything anymore, I never heard them singing those 16 songs. But they were dragging them inside, into the 17 warehouse. 18 After that I heard a voice, one of those 19 Bosnian Serbs said, "There are some dead around the 20 building. They need to be collected." So I was even 21 more afraid there. I panicked because I thought they 22 would collect me and they would see I was alive and 23 then they would kill me. Then another one said, "Well, 24 they are not a problem. We'll collect them later. 25 Let's deal with those who are inside." Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2535 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 And probably they sat down there somewhere; I 2 don't know because I couldn't see it. And then this 3 one man, of course I assume it was the leader who was 4 giving the orders, who was in com and, he ordered them 5 to sing songs, Serb songs, Chetnik songs, rather. As 6 far as I could hear, I remember well that they sang the 7 song "From Topolje to Ravne Gora, there are all our 8 guards of General Draza," and many other songs that I 9 had remembered but I've forgotten in the meantime. 10 After that, they went on singing for about 11 half an hour or an hour, I'm not sure, then I heard 12 bursts of fire. The fire went on for some time, I 13 don't know for how long, a certain amount of time. 14 They killed those wounded, and later I didn't hear 15 anything anymore, I never heard them singing those 16 songs. But they were dragging them inside, into the 17 warehouse. 18 After that I heard a voice, one of those 19 Bosnian Serbs said, "There are some dead around the 20 building. They need to be collected." So I was even 21 more afraid there. I panicked because I thought they 22 would collect me and they would see I was alive and 23 then they would kill me. Then another one said, "Well, 24 they are not a problem. We'll collect them later. 25 Let's deal with those who are inside." Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2536 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Then they were shooting them in their heads. 2 I heard them inside, they were saying something like, 3 think this one is still alive. Shoot him in the 4 head," and then you would hear a bullet, one, two, or 5 several, shooting at those they thought were still 6 alive. 7 After that I heard a loud noise inside, in 8 the hangar. The excavator, the dredger, was collecting 9 the dead, and in my view they were probably loading 10 them onto a truck and driving them to graves. I could ll not see the direction they took. So that I still 12 remained in the same spot, lying there. 13 After a while I heard somebody walking 14 through the maize field toward me. It was a Bosnian 15 Serb soldier. I realised immediately that it was the 16 soldier who had shot me the previous night. He came to 17 a metre from me, perhaps. Judging by the sound, he 18 stopped very close to me. 19 I was stinking like a corpse, covered in 20 blood. There were flies all over me. As I said, the 21 sun was high and it was hot. And when he approached 22 me, the flies flew off me, they flew away. And he was 23 there for maybe half a minute or a minute; I don't know 24 exactly, anyway, very briefly. So he didn't say 25 anything, he didn't touch me, he just broke off a leaf Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2536 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Then they were shooting them in their heads. 2 I heard them inside, they were saying something like, 3 think this one is still alive. Shoot him in the 4 head," and then you would hear a bullet, one, two, or 5 several, shooting at those they thought were still 6 alive. 7 After that I heard a loud noise inside, in 8 the hangar. The excavator, the dredger, was collecting 9 the dead, and in my view they were probably loading 10 them onto a truck and driving them to graves. I could ll not see the direction they took. So that I still 12 remained in the same spot, lying there. 13 After a while I heard somebody walking 14 through the maize field toward me. It was a Bosnian 15 Serb soldier. I realised immediately that it was the 16 soldier who had shot me the previous night. He came to 17 a metre from me, perhaps. Judging by the sound, he 18 stopped very close to me. 19 I was stinking like a corpse, covered in 20 blood. There were flies all over me. As I said, the 21 sun was high and it was hot. And when he approached 22 me, the flies flew off me, they flew away. And he was 23 there for maybe half a minute or a minute; I don't know 24 exactly, anyway, very briefly. So he didn't say 25 anything, he didn't touch me, he just broke off a leaf Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2537 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 from the maize plant and he sounded as if he had a 2 cold, he was sniffing. And then he went back again 3 through the maize field. While he was approaching me, 4 I held my breath so that he couldn't notice that I was 5 breathing, so in that way I managed to make him believe 6 that I was dead. When he left, no other person came 7 close. 8 After that I raised my head a little and I 9 looked in front of me. I was all stiff because I 10 didn't dare budge all night. Then I stretched my arms 11 and legs a little, and I saw that everything was all 12 right, that I could walk, it wasn't too painful. Then 13 I turned to look around behind me, and I saw the hangar 14 behind me and I saw Bosnian Serbs entering, entering 15 the other hangar. 16 On that hangar they were entering, I saw some 17 red letters but I don't remember what was written on 18 that hangar. The letters were written in a straight 19 line, vertically, in red. 20 Q. Witness, if you could wait there for a 21 moment. 22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 116. 24 Q. Now, Witness, you and I viewed a video 25 yesterday afternoon, which I think is Prosecutor's Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2537 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 from the maize plant and he sounded as if he had a 2 cold, he was sniffing. And then he went back again 3 through the maize field. While he was approaching me, 4 I held my breath so that he couldn't notice that I was 5 breathing, so in that way I managed to make him believe 6 that I was dead. When he left, no other person came 7 close. 8 After that I raised my head a little and I 9 looked in front of me. I was all stiff because I 10 didn't dare budge all night. Then I stretched my arms 11 and legs a little, and I saw that everything was all 12 right, that I could walk, it wasn't too painful. Then 13 I turned to look around behind me, and I saw the hangar 14 behind me and I saw Bosnian Serbs entering, entering 15 the other hangar. 16 On that hangar they were entering, I saw some 17 red letters but I don't remember what was written on 18 that hangar. The letters were written in a straight 19 line, vertically, in red. 20 Q. Witness, if you could wait there for a 21 moment. 22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 116. 24 Q. Now, Witness, you and I viewed a video 25 yesterday afternoon, which I think is Prosecutor's Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2538 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Exhibit 8/9. 2 MR. CAYLEY: It's a video that's in 3 evidence. I'll give the Court a number in a moment. 4 It's actually Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/13, the video that 5 Your Honours saw of the Kravica warehouse. 6 Q. In fact, you noticed on this video that the 7 lettering that you saw on the building is -- if the 8 photograph could be put centrally. 9 Could you point to the lettering, the 10 vertical lettering, that you saw when you got up on 11 that day, in July, on the other building? 12 A. Yes, of course I'll show it. They are these 13 letters [indicates]. 14 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 15 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 116, a 16 series of seven letters that are set vertically on a 17 white building, a part of the factory complex in 18 Kravica, and they are located just above and to the 19 right of the door, which is just off centre in the 20 photograph. 21 If the witness could then be shown 22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2. 23 Q. If you could just indicate on this photograph 24 the building on which those letters were written from 25 which you saw Bosnian Serb soldiers entering. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case N0. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2538 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 Exhibit 8/9. 2 MR. CAYLEY: It's a video that's in 3 evidence. I'll give the Court a number in a moment. 4 It's actually Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/13, the video that 5 Your Honours saw of the Kravica warehouse. 6 Q. In fact, you noticed on this video that the 7 lettering that you saw on the building is -- if the 8 photograph could be put centrally. 9 Could you point to the lettering, the 10 vertical lettering, that you saw when you got up on 11 that day, in July, on the other building? 12 A. Yes, of course I'll show it. They are these 13 letters [indicates]. 14 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 15 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 116, a 16 series of seven letters that are set vertically on a 17 white building, a part of the factory complex in 18 Kravica, and they are located just above and to the 19 right of the door, which is just off centre in the 20 photograph. 21 If the witness could then be shown 22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2. 23 Q. If you could just indicate on this photograph 24 the building on which those letters were written from 25 which you saw Bosnian Serb soldiers entering. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case N0. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2539 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Of course I'll show you. It's this building 2 here [indicates]. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 4 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2, to 5 the part of the factory complex, the warehouse 6 building, which is furthest to the left. It's above 7 the road and it's the building furthest to the left, 8 and it's perpendicular to the road that runs from the 9 left to the right of the photograph. 10 Q. Now, after you'd got up, after you'd seen 11 this lettering, what did you do next? 12 A. I sort of stretched out a little while I was 13 still lying down. 14 Q. Sorry, Witness, it's just we need that 15 photograph again, and rather than have the usher bring 16 it back. 17 MR. CAYLEY: It's Exhibit 8/2. You can just 18 leave that Mr. Usher. 19 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Witness, you said 20 that you stretched out a little. You were still lying 21 down. What happened to you next? 22 A. Yes. As I was saying, I stretched my legs 23 and arms. I looked to the left through the maize. I 24 saw them entering again, Bosnian Serbs. It was a 25 little way away from me. They were entering the lower Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2539 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. Of course I'll show you. It's this building 2 here [indicates]. 3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 4 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2, to 5 the part of the factory complex, the warehouse 6 building, which is furthest to the left. It's above 7 the road and it's the building furthest to the left, 8 and it's perpendicular to the road that runs from the 9 left to the right of the photograph. 10 Q. Now, after you'd got up, after you'd seen 11 this lettering, what did you do next? 12 A. I sort of stretched out a little while I was 13 still lying down. 14 Q. Sorry, Witness, it's just we need that 15 photograph again, and rather than have the usher bring 16 it back. 17 MR. CAYLEY: It's Exhibit 8/2. You can just 18 leave that Mr. Usher. 19 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Witness, you said 20 that you stretched out a little. You were still lying 21 down. What happened to you next? 22 A. Yes. As I was saying, I stretched my legs 23 and arms. I looked to the left through the maize. I 24 saw them entering again, Bosnian Serbs. It was a 25 little way away from me. They were entering the lower Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2540 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 hangar and to my left. I'll show it to you on the 2 picture [indicates]. They were entering this hangar. 3 This one. 4 Q. If you could just wait there, Witness. 5 A. By this hangar, next to this hangar. 6 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 7 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 the 8 white rectangular building which is furthest in the 9 background of the photograph and has a striped effected 10 front, the front of the building has -- appears to have 11 black and white stripes. 12 Q. Please continue, Witness. 13 A. In the course of the night, in this building, 14 I will show you now [indicates], in this building, I 15 heard to my left, I think it was in this building, that 16 there must have been cows screaming, something was 17 squealing like pigs. I don't know what it was. To me, 18 it sounded like cows. There were some cries anyway and 19 screams. 20 And, as I have just said, I saw those Bosnian 21 Serbs, two or three of them I saw. Once when I had 22 decided to run from the place I was lying, I saw them 23 entering this hangar to my left. 24 And then, I crawled to the left through the 25 maize for a distance of some two or three metres, maybe Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2540 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 hangar and to my left. I'll show it to you on the 2 picture [indicates]. They were entering this hangar. 3 This one. 4 Q. If you could just wait there, Witness. 5 A. By this hangar, next to this hangar. 6 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 7 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 the 8 white rectangular building which is furthest in the 9 background of the photograph and has a striped effected 10 front, the front of the building has -- appears to have 11 black and white stripes. 12 Q. Please continue, Witness. 13 A. In the course of the night, in this building, 14 I will show you now [indicates], in this building, I 15 heard to my left, I think it was in this building, that 16 there must have been cows screaming, something was 17 squealing like pigs. I don't know what it was. To me, 18 it sounded like cows. There were some cries anyway and 19 screams. 20 And, as I have just said, I saw those Bosnian 21 Serbs, two or three of them I saw. Once when I had 22 decided to run from the place I was lying, I saw them 23 entering this hangar to my left. 24 And then, I crawled to the left through the 25 maize for a distance of some two or three metres, maybe Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2541 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 more. So I entered a line of the maize and I headed -- 2 if I'm looking at the picture, as I am now, towards the 3 river. I'll show you now. And I crawled as far as the 4 river. From here to the right [indicates]. 5 I reached this corner here [indicates]. I 6 looked to the right to make sure there were no Bosnian 7 Serbs to see me there. And while I was crawling 8 through the maize, I was going very slowly so that no 9 one would notice any movement. I saw two or three 10 bodies here [indicates]. The soil was clay near the 11 river, and the maize couldn't grow from the clay soil, 12 it was very small, very short, maybe only half a metre 13 from the ground, maybe even smaller. 14 And I saw three Muslim men dead there. One 15 of them had a shot wound in his head. 16 Q. Witness, if you could just indicate again, 17 without speaking, the route that you took from behind 18 the warehouse, and I'll describe it so that it's on our 19 transcript. So if you can just indicate, with the 20 pointer, the route that you took from behind the 21 warehouse? 22 A. What do you mean? While I was crawling or 23 while we were on the bus? 24 Q. While you were crawling. 25 A. I see. I'll show you. This is where I was Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2541 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 more. So I entered a line of the maize and I headed -- 2 if I'm looking at the picture, as I am now, towards the 3 river. I'll show you now. And I crawled as far as the 4 river. From here to the right [indicates]. 5 I reached this corner here [indicates]. I 6 looked to the right to make sure there were no Bosnian 7 Serbs to see me there. And while I was crawling 8 through the maize, I was going very slowly so that no 9 one would notice any movement. I saw two or three 10 bodies here [indicates]. The soil was clay near the 11 river, and the maize couldn't grow from the clay soil, 12 it was very small, very short, maybe only half a metre 13 from the ground, maybe even smaller. 14 And I saw three Muslim men dead there. One 15 of them had a shot wound in his head. 16 Q. Witness, if you could just indicate again, 17 without speaking, the route that you took from behind 18 the warehouse, and I'll describe it so that it's on our 19 transcript. So if you can just indicate, with the 20 pointer, the route that you took from behind the 21 warehouse? 22 A. What do you mean? While I was crawling or 23 while we were on the bus? 24 Q. While you were crawling. 25 A. I see. I'll show you. This is where I was Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2542 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 [indicates], and this is the distance that I covered 2 crawling to my right side in the direction of the 3 river, if you're looking at the picture the way I am 4 now. So this is the way I took, and this is the spot 5 where I actually entered [indicates] the brook, the 6 creek. I stayed five minutes -- for about five minutes 7 there. I drank some water. I washed myself a little. 8 And I saw another dead body here [indicates] who also 9 had a gunshot wound in his head. It must have been a 10 Muslim who had tried to save his life, but didn't 11 manage to. So I crossed the river -- 12 Q. Witness, if you could wait. 13 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 14 route that the witness took on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 15 is a route that he indicated immediately behind the 16 main factory building which is in the centre of the 17 photograph, im ediately behind that building to its 18 extreme right end, and then up diagonally into an area 19 that appears to have bushes and trees where he 20 indicated there was a brook. 21 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you went into a 22 brook where you washed yourself and you drank some 23 water. Do you recall that? 24 A. Yes, of course I recall that. 25 Q. How long did you spend in that small river? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2542 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 [indicates], and this is the distance that I covered 2 crawling to my right side in the direction of the 3 river, if you're looking at the picture the way I am 4 now. So this is the way I took, and this is the spot 5 where I actually entered [indicates] the brook, the 6 creek. I stayed five minutes -- for about five minutes 7 there. I drank some water. I washed myself a little. 8 And I saw another dead body here [indicates] who also 9 had a gunshot wound in his head. It must have been a 10 Muslim who had tried to save his life, but didn't 11 manage to. So I crossed the river -- 12 Q. Witness, if you could wait. 13 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the 14 route that the witness took on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 15 is a route that he indicated immediately behind the 16 main factory building which is in the centre of the 17 photograph, im ediately behind that building to its 18 extreme right end, and then up diagonally into an area 19 that appears to have bushes and trees where he 20 indicated there was a brook. 21 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you went into a 22 brook where you washed yourself and you drank some 23 water. Do you recall that? 24 A. Yes, of course I recall that. 25 Q. How long did you spend in that small river? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2543 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. About five minutes, at least I think it was 2 five. I didn't have a watch. 3 Q. And after you left that little brook, where 4 did you go after that? 5 A. I'll show you on the picture. At this corner 6 here [indicates], this is where I drank some water, 7 where I washed myself at the brook. 8 So I moved maybe five or ten metres upwards 9 and then I turned back. And then I turned towards the 10 warehouse and I could still hear the sound of the 11 excavator collecting dead bodies from the warehouse. 12 I was looking for a bottle or a container of 13 some kind so that I could take some water for me for 14 later on to refresh myself, but I couldn't find 15 anything. 16 So I crossed the brook and I entered another 17 cornfield. This is the other cornfield [indicates]. 18 And I walked through the cornfield, through one line of 19 the corns, and I reached a small path which cannot be 20 seen on the picture, and this is where I entered the 21 woods. 22 Again, I felt very weak. I was about to 23 faint. And this is where I found an empty can. I 24 continued for about 20 to 30 metres along that path and 25 I came up to a brook again. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2543 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 A. About five minutes, at least I think it was 2 five. I didn't have a watch. 3 Q. And after you left that little brook, where 4 did you go after that? 5 A. I'll show you on the picture. At this corner 6 here [indicates], this is where I drank some water, 7 where I washed myself at the brook. 8 So I moved maybe five or ten metres upwards 9 and then I turned back. And then I turned towards the 10 warehouse and I could still hear the sound of the 11 excavator collecting dead bodies from the warehouse. 12 I was looking for a bottle or a container of 13 some kind so that I could take some water for me for 14 later on to refresh myself, but I couldn't find 15 anything. 16 So I crossed the brook and I entered another 17 cornfield. This is the other cornfield [indicates]. 18 And I walked through the cornfield, through one line of 19 the corns, and I reached a small path which cannot be 20 seen on the picture, and this is where I entered the 21 woods. 22 Again, I felt very weak. I was about to 23 faint. And this is where I found an empty can. I 24 continued for about 20 to 30 metres along that path and 25 I came up to a brook again. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2544 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: If the record could just show 2 that the route that the witness indicated was a 3 cornfield in the top right-hand corner of the 4 photograph and that he left through the cornfield and 5 then followed a path which is not shown on this 6 photograph. 7 Q. Witness, you said you found an empty can and 8 you continued for 20 to 30 metres along a path and you 9 came to a brook again. 10 Now, I know from you and I having spoken that 11 you had quite a difficult journey after this, but I 12 want to cut matters short. I think I'm right in saying 13 that you eventually found yourself in the town of Zepa 14 on, I think, the 26th of July of 1995; is that correct? 15 A. I don't know exactly what date it was. I 16 know only that I was in Zepa, that's true. But it was 17 before the fall of Zepa at any rate. 18 Q. Do you know when Zepa fell? 19 A. I don't know, because I had left before the 20 town fell, and the Bosnian Serbs had already entered 21 the area. Maybe it was two, three, four, maybe five 22 days later, and I stayed a while in the hospital in 23 Zepa. 24 So when we went down to Zepa, the 12 of us 25 who were wounded, we decided to join a convoy with the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2544 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 MR. CAYLEY: If the record could just show 2 that the route that the witness indicated was a 3 cornfield in the top right-hand corner of the 4 photograph and that he left through the cornfield and 5 then followed a path which is not shown on this 6 photograph. 7 Q. Witness, you said you found an empty can and 8 you continued for 20 to 30 metres along a path and you 9 came to a brook again. 10 Now, I know from you and I having spoken that 11 you had quite a difficult journey after this, but I 12 want to cut matters short. I think I'm right in saying 13 that you eventually found yourself in the town of Zepa 14 on, I think, the 26th of July of 1995; is that correct? 15 A. I don't know exactly what date it was. I 16 know only that I was in Zepa, that's true. But it was 17 before the fall of Zepa at any rate. 18 Q. Do you know when Zepa fell? 19 A. I don't know, because I had left before the 20 town fell, and the Bosnian Serbs had already entered 21 the area. Maybe it was two, three, four, maybe five 22 days later, and I stayed a while in the hospital in 23 Zepa. 24 So when we went down to Zepa, the 12 of us 25 who were wounded, we decided to join a convoy with the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2545 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 civilian population; women, children, and elderly 2 people towards Kladanj. 3 Q. While you were in Zepa, were you registered 4 by the Red Cross? 5 A. Yes. When I came to Zepa, together with a 6 colleague of mine, a friend of mine whose name was 7 Senad. I forgot his last name. He's from Voljavica. 8 MR. CAYLEY: I want to show you your Red 9 Cross certificate which is Exhibit 118. 10 Mr. Usher don't put this on the ELMO because 11 it has the witness' name on it, but if copies of it 12 could be given to the witness and Judges. 13 Q. Witness, don't read anything from this 14 certificate, but can you just confirm that this is the 15 Red Cross certificate confirming that you were 16 originally registered in Zepa and then subsequently 17 visited at the Rogatica military camp? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. I was registered 19 together with everybody else. There were, I believe, 20 12 of us who had been wounded. 21 We entered the UN Compound where the Ukranian 22 Battalion was stationed, and this is where the Red 23 Cross people came and registered us. 24 The Bosnian Serbs, the military, had already 25 entered the town of Zepa, and they were walking around Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2545 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 civilian population; women, children, and elderly 2 people towards Kladanj. 3 Q. While you were in Zepa, were you registered 4 by the Red Cross? 5 A. Yes. When I came to Zepa, together with a 6 colleague of mine, a friend of mine whose name was 7 Senad. I forgot his last name. He's from Voljavica. 8 MR. CAYLEY: I want to show you your Red 9 Cross certificate which is Exhibit 118. 10 Mr. Usher don't put this on the ELMO because 11 it has the witness' name on it, but if copies of it 12 could be given to the witness and Judges. 13 Q. Witness, don't read anything from this 14 certificate, but can you just confirm that this is the 15 Red Cross certificate confirming that you were 16 originally registered in Zepa and then subsequently 17 visited at the Rogatica military camp? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. I was registered 19 together with everybody else. There were, I believe, 20 12 of us who had been wounded. 21 We entered the UN Compound where the Ukranian 22 Battalion was stationed, and this is where the Red 23 Cross people came and registered us. 24 The Bosnian Serbs, the military, had already 25 entered the town of Zepa, and they were walking around Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2546 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 the area. They were together there while the 2 evacuation of civilians was taking place towards 3 Kladanj. 4 Then French doctors came and examined us 5 together with a Serb doctor. This doctor examined me 6 as well, and then they were selecting wounded people. 7 They wouldn't let them do it. They let some of them 8 go. There were quite a few elderly people there; 9 people who could not walk, could not move, and they 10 were evacuated by the French military in their APCs. 11 Some of the wounded were put on buseswho remained, they didn't let us go -- 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 14 I'm sorry to interrupt you at this point because the 15 text has already disappeared from the screen. The 16 exhibit that we saw was 5/18 and the transcript on page 17 91 which is no longer here stated 6/18. I would just 18 like to make sure that it was 5/18. 19 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I 20 know that after the proceedings, the stenographers 21 actually go through the recorded -- the record and 22 actually correct all of these numbers. So it will be 23 done. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, 25 then, because I didn't say 5/18 or 6/18. I said -- Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2546 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 the area. They were together there while the 2 evacuation of civilians was taking place towards 3 Kladanj. 4 Then French doctors came and examined us 5 together with a Serb doctor. This doctor examined me 6 as well, and then they were selecting wounded people. 7 They wouldn't let them do it. They let some of them 8 go. There were quite a few elderly people there; 9 people who could not walk, could not move, and they 10 were evacuated by the French military in their APCs. 11 Some of the wounded were put on buseswho remained, they didn't let us go -- 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 14 I'm sorry to interrupt you at this point because the 15 text has already disappeared from the screen. The 16 exhibit that we saw was 5/18 and the transcript on page 17 91 which is no longer here stated 6/18. I would just 18 like to make sure that it was 5/18. 19 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I 20 know that after the proceedings, the stenographers 21 actually go through the recorded -- the record and 22 actually correct all of these numbers. So it will be 23 done. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, 25 then, because I didn't say 5/18 or 6/18. I said -- Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2547 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 well, if a correction is going to be made, then it will 2 be corrected, because I wanted to say that it was not 3 Exhibit 1/18, yes, but the exhibit number 5/18. 4 I'm sorry, I see 5/18 once again. As far as 5 I can see, it's 5/18 and I wanted to say 118. That is 6 118. I'm sorry. It's my mistake. I'm sorry. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Well, Mr. President, you have 8 success at the end. You have 118 on the transcript. 9 Q. Witness, in summary, and if you could just 10 answer yes or no, the Defence may have some more 11 detailed questions than this, but am I right in saying 12 that you were promised that you would be taken to free 13 territory and, in fact, you found yourself in the 14 Bosnian Serb prison camp at Rogatica. That's where the 15 Bosnian Serbs actually took you? 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 Q. And I think you stayed in that camp until the 18 15th of January, 1996, and you were then taken to Kula 19 prison and exchanged at Sarajevo airport on the 19th of 20 January of 1996; is that right? 21 A. Yes, that is correct. 22 Q. If I could just briefly show you Prosecutor's 23 Exhibit 117, which, again, Mr. Usher, is a document 24 that's not to go on the ELMO. 25 (redacted) Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2547 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 well, if a correction is going to be made, then it will 2 be corrected, because I wanted to say that it was not 3 Exhibit 1/18, yes, but the exhibit number 5/18. 4 I'm sorry, I see 5/18 once again. As far as 5 I can see, it's 5/18 and I wanted to say 118. That is 6 118. I'm sorry. It's my mistake. I'm sorry. 7 MR. CAYLEY: Well, Mr. President, you have 8 success at the end. You have 118 on the transcript. 9 Q. Witness, in summary, and if you could just 10 answer yes or no, the Defence may have some more 11 detailed questions than this, but am I right in saying 12 that you were promised that you would be taken to free 13 territory and, in fact, you found yourself in the 14 Bosnian Serb prison camp at Rogatica. That's where the 15 Bosnian Serbs actually took you? 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 Q. And I think you stayed in that camp until the 18 15th of January, 1996, and you were then taken to Kula 19 prison and exchanged at Sarajevo airport on the 19th of 20 January of 1996; is that right? 21 A. Yes, that is correct. 22 Q. If I could just briefly show you Prosecutor's 23 Exhibit 117, which, again, Mr. Usher, is a document 24 that's not to go on the ELMO. 25 (redacted) Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2548 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted). I'm not going to go through them all, but 3 if you could just confirm that these are your medical 4 records which you provided to the Office of the 5 Prosecutor a number of years ago, I think two years 6 ago. 7 Are these your medical records? 8 A. Yes, these are my medical records. 9 Q. (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted)? 12 A. Yes, that's right. 13 Q. (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 A. (redacted). 16 Q. Now, I know you suffered some trauma as a 17 result of these events, and that's shown in your 18 medical records. How do you feel now? 19 A. I don't feel very well. That's all I can 20 tell you. But all in all it's okay. I cannot 21 complain. 22 Q. Do you still have any night-time recollection 23 of the events at Kravica? Do you still have dreams or 24 nightmares about these events? 25 A. Yes, of course I do. I have dreams. I wake Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2548 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted). I'm not going to go through them all, but 3 if you could just confirm that these are your medical 4 records which you provided to the Office of the 5 Prosecutor a number of years ago, I think two years 6 ago. 7 Are these your medical records? 8 A. Yes, these are my medical records. 9 Q. (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted)? 12 A. Yes, that's right. 13 Q. (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 A. (redacted). 16 Q. Now, I know you suffered some trauma as a 17 result of these events, and that's shown in your 18 medical records. How do you feel now? 19 A. I don't feel very well. That's all I can 20 tell you. But all in all it's okay. I cannot 21 complain. 22 Q. Do you still have any night-time recollection 23 of the events at Kravica? Do you still have dreams or 24 nightmares about these events? 25 A. Yes, of course I do. I have dreams. I wake Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2549 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 up in the middle of the night and I shiver. I become 2 anxious, I start trembling, and everything comes back 3 to my mind, my journey from Srebrenica to Tuzla. 4 Everything sort of passes through me once again and it 5 makes me fearful again. It's difficult to describe how 6 I feel. 7 Q. Witness, thank you very much, indeed, for 8 your patience. I have no further questions for you. 9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I can now offer 10 the witness for cross-examination. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Cayley. 13 I think we should have a break now because 14 one member of the Chamber has an urgent obligation. 15 I don't know how much time you will need, 16 Mr. Petrusic, for your cross-examination. Could you 17 tell us that now? 18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 19 of course it will depend on the answers given by the 20 witness, but we hope to finish before the end of the 21 day. However, this is not a 100 per cent reliable 22 estimate, but we will do our best to complete the 23 cross-examination today. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But in any 25 case we have to have a break. We will have a 15-minute Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2549 Examined by Mr. Cayley 1 up in the middle of the night and I shiver. I become 2 anxious, I start trembling, and everything comes back 3 to my mind, my journey from Srebrenica to Tuzla. 4 Everything sort of passes through me once again and it 5 makes me fearful again. It's difficult to describe how 6 I feel. 7 Q. Witness, thank you very much, indeed, for 8 your patience. I have no further questions for you. 9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I can now offer 10 the witness for cross-examination. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Cayley. 13 I think we should have a break now because 14 one member of the Chamber has an urgent obligation. 15 I don't know how much time you will need, 16 Mr. Petrusic, for your cross-examination. Could you 17 tell us that now? 18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 19 of course it will depend on the answers given by the 20 witness, but we hope to finish before the end of the 21 day. However, this is not a 100 per cent reliable 22 estimate, but we will do our best to complete the 23 cross-examination today. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But in any 25 case we have to have a break. We will have a 15-minute Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2550 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 break, and after that we will continue. 2 Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. 3 A 15-minute break now. 4 Recess taken at 1.47 p.m. 5 On resuming at 2.03 p.m. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you can 7 see, Judge Fouad Riad was unable to rejoin us, and in 8 line with Rule 15 bis we're going to continue with the 9 testimony of this witness. 10 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. 11 Witness, you are now going to answer 12 questions put to you by Counsel Petrusic. 13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: 16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness K. 17 A. Good afternoon. 18 Q. At the very beginning, I should like to ask 19 you, where did you start out from in the direction of 20 Jaglici, on the 11th of July, I think it was? 21 A. We headed towards Tuzla. 22 Q. But where from? You yourself. 23 A. From Srebrenica. 24 Q. A group of able-bodied men rallied in 25 Jaglici, did they not? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2550 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 break, and after that we will continue. 2 Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. 3 A 15-minute break now. 4 Recess taken at 1.47 p.m. 5 On resuming at 2.03 p.m. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you can 7 see, Judge Fouad Riad was unable to rejoin us, and in 8 line with Rule 15 bis we're going to continue with the 9 testimony of this witness. 10 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. 11 Witness, you are now going to answer 12 questions put to you by Counsel Petrusic. 13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: 16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness K. 17 A. Good afternoon. 18 Q. At the very beginning, I should like to ask 19 you, where did you start out from in the direction of 20 Jaglici, on the 11th of July, I think it was? 21 A. We headed towards Tuzla. 22 Q. But where from? You yourself. 23 A. From Srebrenica. 24 Q. A group of able-bodied men rallied in 25 Jaglici, did they not? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2551 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So could you please wait a couple of seconds 3 after my question, since we speak the same language, 4 for the benefit of the interpreters. Just three 5 seconds or so. 6 So this group went on along which road? 7 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your 8 question. 9 Q. When you got together in Jaglici, you headed 10 towards which position, along which path, which route? 11 A. We headed towards Tuzla, through the woods. 12 Q. You said in the course of your testimony 13 today that you were not armed. 14 A. I beg your pardon? 15 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said 16 that you were unarmed. 17 A. When? Where? 18 Q. I mean Jaglici and on from there. 19 A. Yes. The majority were not armed, of the 20 men, of course. 21 Q. In your statement to the Agency for 22 Investigation and Documentation, AID, on the 16th of 23 February, 1996, you said, on page 2 -- 24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask 25 the usher for his assistance, please. Could the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2551 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So could you please wait a couple of seconds 3 after my question, since we speak the same language, 4 for the benefit of the interpreters. Just three 5 seconds or so. 6 So this group went on along which road? 7 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your 8 question. 9 Q. When you got together in Jaglici, you headed 10 towards which position, along which path, which route? 11 A. We headed towards Tuzla, through the woods. 12 Q. You said in the course of your testimony 13 today that you were not armed. 14 A. I beg your pardon? 15 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said 16 that you were unarmed. 17 A. When? Where? 18 Q. I mean Jaglici and on from there. 19 A. Yes. The majority were not armed, of the 20 men, of course. 21 Q. In your statement to the Agency for 22 Investigation and Documentation, AID, on the 16th of 23 February, 1996, you said, on page 2 -- 24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask 25 the usher for his assistance, please. Could the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2552 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 statement be given to the Chamber, the Prosecution, and 2 the witness. 3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be 4 Exhibit D14. 5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 6 Q. So on page 2, the first sentence: "After a 7 short lull, the Chetniks opened fire at us again, 8 demanding that we surrender our weapons, which we did 9 not agree to." 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Therefore, this was an armed group. 12 A. No, they didn't see that. But they called on 13 all of us, whoever had any weapons, to surrender them, 14 or if they had any, to surrender them. They thought 15 that we were all armed and we were not. Very few men 16 had rifles. 17 Q. Witness K, you said that you didn't agree to 18 surrender your weapons, so my question is: Was yours 19 an armed group of men or not? 20 A. I don't understand. Do you mean a small 21 group or all the men who were heading towards Tuzla? 22 Q. The group that you were in. 23 A. The group I was in? They called on all of us 24 to surrender, anyone who had any weapons. All men who 25 were armed were called on by them to throw down their Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2552 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 statement be given to the Chamber, the Prosecution, and 2 the witness. 3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be 4 Exhibit D14. 5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 6 Q. So on page 2, the first sentence: "After a 7 short lull, the Chetniks opened fire at us again, 8 demanding that we surrender our weapons, which we did 9 not agree to." 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Therefore, this was an armed group. 12 A. No, they didn't see that. But they called on 13 all of us, whoever had any weapons, to surrender them, 14 or if they had any, to surrender them. They thought 15 that we were all armed and we were not. Very few men 16 had rifles. 17 Q. Witness K, you said that you didn't agree to 18 surrender your weapons, so my question is: Was yours 19 an armed group of men or not? 20 A. I don't understand. Do you mean a small 21 group or all the men who were heading towards Tuzla? 22 Q. The group that you were in. 23 A. The group I was in? They called on all of us 24 to surrender, anyone who had any weapons. All men who 25 were armed were called on by them to throw down their Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2553 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 weapons, or to surrender. Of course, when the 2 surrender occurred, no one reached them with their 3 weapons on them. They wouldn't give themselves up 4 armed. 5 Q. You're talking about the group you were in, 6 and you said that you didn't accept their offer, shall 7 we call it that. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Therefore, that group did have weapons. 10 A. We did, but we didn't surrender together with 11 our weapons. The moment that I decided to go and 12 surrender, together with a group of men, none of us had 13 any weapons because people threw away their weapons in 14 the woods. They didn't dare surrender with their 15 weapons on them, of course. 16 Q. So let us make this quite clear. The moment 17 that you were called upon, did you and your group have 18 weapons on you? 19 A. The moment they called on us, I did not have 20 a weapon just then. 21 Q. So you are claiming that the statement you 22 made to AID is not correct. 23 A. What do you mean? 24 Q. Regarding this part that we're referring to. 25 A. I don't understand that. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2553 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 weapons, or to surrender. Of course, when the 2 surrender occurred, no one reached them with their 3 weapons on them. They wouldn't give themselves up 4 armed. 5 Q. You're talking about the group you were in, 6 and you said that you didn't accept their offer, shall 7 we call it that. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Therefore, that group did have weapons. 10 A. We did, but we didn't surrender together with 11 our weapons. The moment that I decided to go and 12 surrender, together with a group of men, none of us had 13 any weapons because people threw away their weapons in 14 the woods. They didn't dare surrender with their 15 weapons on them, of course. 16 Q. So let us make this quite clear. The moment 17 that you were called upon, did you and your group have 18 weapons on you? 19 A. The moment they called on us, I did not have 20 a weapon just then. 21 Q. So you are claiming that the statement you 22 made to AID is not correct. 23 A. What do you mean? 24 Q. Regarding this part that we're referring to. 25 A. I don't understand that. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2554 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 MR. CAYLEY: Objection. Your Honour, I think 2 it should actually be made very clear what the witness 3 said in his statement, and I think there is a slight 4 degree of misrepresentation that is taking place by 5 Mr. Petrusic. 6 The witness did not state in his statement 7 that he refused to do anything, and Mr. Petrusic has 8 actually offered it to the witness in that fashion, 9 "You refused to lay down your arms." If I read from 10 the English version, it states: "After a short 11 silence, the Chetniks opened fire on us again, 12 demanding that we surrender our weapons to them, which 13 we refused to do." 14 The witness has been asked on a number of 15 occasions whether or not there were armed persons in 16 the column. He's acknowledged that. He said that 17 there were a number of people that were armed in the 18 column. Mr. Petrusic is asking essentially the same 19 question over and over again, to which he's getting the 20 same response. So I think he should be asked to move 21 on with his cross-examination, and I think that the 22 witness has satisfactorily answered the question. 23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 24 Mr. Petrusic, what is your response? What is your 25 reaction to this? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2554 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 MR. CAYLEY: Objection. Your Honour, I think 2 it should actually be made very clear what the witness 3 said in his statement, and I think there is a slight 4 degree of misrepresentation that is taking place by 5 Mr. Petrusic. 6 The witness did not state in his statement 7 that he refused to do anything, and Mr. Petrusic has 8 actually offered it to the witness in that fashion, 9 "You refused to lay down your arms." If I read from 10 the English version, it states: "After a short 11 silence, the Chetniks opened fire on us again, 12 demanding that we surrender our weapons to them, which 13 we refused to do." 14 The witness has been asked on a number of 15 occasions whether or not there were armed persons in 16 the column. He's acknowledged that. He said that 17 there were a number of people that were armed in the 18 column. Mr. Petrusic is asking essentially the same 19 question over and over again, to which he's getting the 20 same response. So I think he should be asked to move 21 on with his cross-examination, and I think that the 22 witness has satisfactorily answered the question. 23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 24 Mr. Petrusic, what is your response? What is your 25 reaction to this? Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2555 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My response, 2 Mr. President, is that I am not misrepresenting what 3 the witness said, I'm just asking him whether what he 4 said was correct or not. Maybe we can put the question 5 in that way. 6 The sentence that has been quoted from his 7 statement, does it reflect the real state of affairs at 8 that point in time, on the 11th of July, and at that 9 spot where he was? 10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 11 Mr. Petrusic, but I think that the witness has already 12 explained, in a way. But if the witness has answered, 13 maybe you should move forward and go on to another 14 question. 15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well, 16 Mr. President. 17 Q. Thank you, Witness K. 18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I should like 19 to ask the usher to be kind enough to put on the ELMO 20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4. Could you please move it to 21 the right a little, the photograph to the right, to the 22 right. Thank you. 23 Q. In relation to the left part of the 24 photograph, where we see these two pillars, below the 25 sign saying "Kravica", can the witness tell us where Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2555 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My response, 2 Mr. President, is that I am not misrepresenting what 3 the witness said, I'm just asking him whether what he 4 said was correct or not. Maybe we can put the question 5 in that way. 6 The sentence that has been quoted from his 7 statement, does it reflect the real state of affairs at 8 that point in time, on the 11th of July, and at that 9 spot where he was? 10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 11 Mr. Petrusic, but I think that the witness has already 12 explained, in a way. But if the witness has answered, 13 maybe you should move forward and go on to another 14 question. 15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well, 16 Mr. President. 17 Q. Thank you, Witness K. 18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I should like 19 to ask the usher to be kind enough to put on the ELMO 20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4. Could you please move it to 21 the right a little, the photograph to the right, to the 22 right. Thank you. 23 Q. In relation to the left part of the 24 photograph, where we see these two pillars, below the 25 sign saying "Kravica", can the witness tell us where Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2556 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 the buses stopped? 2 A. Yes, I'll show you on the photograph. 3 Q. The front part of the bus, where did it stop? 4 A. Here [indicates], further to the left, off 5 the photograph. 6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So for the 7 record, it can be noted that it is to the left of the 8 area shown on the photograph, underneath the first 9 window. 10 Q. You disembarked from the bus, and can you 11 then explain where you went to? 12 A. On the photograph? You want me to show you 13 on the photograph? 14 Q. Describe it, and then we'll see for the 15 record. 16 A. I got off the bus. I entered the first 17 entrance there. Just in front of this pillar where it 18 says "Kravica". To the left of the first pillar. 19 Q. Did you pass in front of the bus? 20 A. What do you mean in front? How? 21 Q. The bus, the bus was at a standstill. It was 22 stopped. You got off the bus. Did you have to pass in 23 front of the bus, the driver's side? 24 A. Yes, I did. I passed around the front of the 25 bus, and we were quickly pushed into the warehouse. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2556 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 the buses stopped? 2 A. Yes, I'll show you on the photograph. 3 Q. The front part of the bus, where did it stop? 4 A. Here [indicates], further to the left, off 5 the photograph. 6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So for the 7 record, it can be noted that it is to the left of the 8 area shown on the photograph, underneath the first 9 window. 10 Q. You disembarked from the bus, and can you 11 then explain where you went to? 12 A. On the photograph? You want me to show you 13 on the photograph? 14 Q. Describe it, and then we'll see for the 15 record. 16 A. I got off the bus. I entered the first 17 entrance there. Just in front of this pillar where it 18 says "Kravica". To the left of the first pillar. 19 Q. Did you pass in front of the bus? 20 A. What do you mean in front? How? 21 Q. The bus, the bus was at a standstill. It was 22 stopped. You got off the bus. Did you have to pass in 23 front of the bus, the driver's side? 24 A. Yes, I did. I passed around the front of the 25 bus, and we were quickly pushed into the warehouse. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2557 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. This part of the warehouse which has these 2 two supporting pillars, is it partitioned in relation 3 to the left closed part of the warehouse? 4 A. What do you mean left, which side? 5 Q. On the left of the photograph. You see the 6 part of the warehouse which is closed in. 7 A. I can't see it being closed in. I can only 8 see the outside wall. 9 Q. In relation to the outside wall that you can 10 see, and in relation to the front part with the two 11 supporting pillars, is there any partition between 12 these two premises? 13 A. Between the two pillars? I don't 14 understand. 15 Q. Between the open part of the warehouse and 16 the part where we can only see the outside wall that is 17 walled in; is there a partition there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And is there a door on that partitioning 20 partition? 21 A. I didn't see it. There was some kind of a 22 fence, like a fence that was broken or something, as 23 far as I could see. 24 Q. Did that go the whole length of the 25 building? That fence, did it go along the whole Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2557 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. This part of the warehouse which has these 2 two supporting pillars, is it partitioned in relation 3 to the left closed part of the warehouse? 4 A. What do you mean left, which side? 5 Q. On the left of the photograph. You see the 6 part of the warehouse which is closed in. 7 A. I can't see it being closed in. I can only 8 see the outside wall. 9 Q. In relation to the outside wall that you can 10 see, and in relation to the front part with the two 11 supporting pillars, is there any partition between 12 these two premises? 13 A. Between the two pillars? I don't 14 understand. 15 Q. Between the open part of the warehouse and 16 the part where we can only see the outside wall that is 17 walled in; is there a partition there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And is there a door on that partitioning 20 partition? 21 A. I didn't see it. There was some kind of a 22 fence, like a fence that was broken or something, as 23 far as I could see. 24 Q. Did that go the whole length of the 25 building? That fence, did it go along the whole Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2558 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 breadth of the building, rather? 2 A. I didn't notice that. I don't know. I was 3 unable to register whether it did or not. 4 Q. Could you tell us how long, how high that 5 fence was? 6 A. How could I know? I didn't measure it. 7 Q. Did it look like a doorfence, like any fence. Like 9 this external fence that is shown on the photograph, 10 rather like that, something like that. Now how high it 11 was, I don't know. 12 Q. Were you placed behind that fence to the 13 left? 14 A. What do you mean? 15 Q. I mean the part of the building that we only 16 see the outside wall of? 17 A. Yes, to the left. When we went inside and 18 sat down, I was looking in front. To my right was the 19 entrance where I went through, and in front of me was 20 the fence and the wall, the partition, some kind of a 21 partition. 22 Q. Perhaps it will be easier if we look at 23 Exhibit 8/9. 24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So as not to 25 waste time, Mr. President, I can give the usher a copy Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2558 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 breadth of the building, rather? 2 A. I didn't notice that. I don't know. I was 3 unable to register whether it did or not. 4 Q. Could you tell us how long, how high that 5 fence was? 6 A. How could I know? I didn't measure it. 7 Q. Did it look like a doorfence, like any fence. Like 9 this external fence that is shown on the photograph, 10 rather like that, something like that. Now how high it 11 was, I don't know. 12 Q. Were you placed behind that fence to the 13 left? 14 A. What do you mean? 15 Q. I mean the part of the building that we only 16 see the outside wall of? 17 A. Yes, to the left. When we went inside and 18 sat down, I was looking in front. To my right was the 19 entrance where I went through, and in front of me was 20 the fence and the wall, the partition, some kind of a 21 partition. 22 Q. Perhaps it will be easier if we look at 23 Exhibit 8/9. 24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So as not to 25 waste time, Mr. President, I can give the usher a copy Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2559 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 myself. 2 Q. Witness K, in relation to these two windows 3 through which we can see the panorama behind the 4 warehouse, were you in this right-hand wing of this 5 warehouse? 6 A. Yes, I'll show it to you [indicates]. In 7 this area, in this part [indicates]. 8 Q. Does this include the part where you 9 encircled two open windows, those that you can see 10 through? 11 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. Was your whole group in that part of the 13 building? 14 A. What do you mean the "whole group"? 15 Q. All of you who came from Lolici. And 16 according to your estimate, there were 1.000 to 1.500. 17 Were they all accommodated there? 18 A. All the people who came in the buses, as far 19 as I saw, were unloaded and placed in those hangars. 20 When I entered the warehouse, I didn't see outside 21 whether others may have, perhaps, been taken to another 22 warehouse because we were very much afraid. 23 Q. You said that there was a fence, Witness 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were you all on one side of that fence? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2559 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 myself. 2 Q. Witness K, in relation to these two windows 3 through which we can see the panorama behind the 4 warehouse, were you in this right-hand wing of this 5 warehouse? 6 A. Yes, I'll show it to you [indicates]. In 7 this area, in this part [indicates]. 8 Q. Does this include the part where you 9 encircled two open windows, those that you can see 10 through? 11 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. Was your whole group in that part of the 13 building? 14 A. What do you mean the "whole group"? 15 Q. All of you who came from Lolici. And 16 according to your estimate, there were 1.000 to 1.500. 17 Were they all accommodated there? 18 A. All the people who came in the buses, as far 19 as I saw, were unloaded and placed in those hangars. 20 When I entered the warehouse, I didn't see outside 21 whether others may have, perhaps, been taken to another 22 warehouse because we were very much afraid. 23 Q. You said that there was a fence, Witness 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were you all on one side of that fence? Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2560 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. All of us who were there with me, yes, who 2 were with me. As far as I was able to see, we were all 3 there on one side of the fence. 4 Q. Let me -- delete that, please. 5 I know that you were fearful, that you 6 probably didn't notice many details, but could you 7 roughly tell us the size of the premise that you were 8 in? 9 A. Roughly, let me try. It would be, perhaps, 10 the length of the warehouse where I was, it seemed to 11 me to be maybe about 30 metres long, 40, maybe less. 12 That's how it looked to me. And the width was maybe 15 13 metres, I don't know, maybe less, maybe more. That is 14 very roughly my estimation. I don't know exactly. 15 Q. These two young men who were taken out of the 16 warehouse allegedly to assist in collecting the 17 wounded, did they come back to the warehouse? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. Did you ask them where they went, in fact? 20 A. No, it never occurred those from your group? 22 A. No, I didn't hear them. 23 Q. Did they, themselves, say anything? 24 A. No, we just kept quiet to see what was going 25 to happen. We were all in a panic and great fear. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2560 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 A. All of us who were there with me, yes, who 2 were with me. As far as I was able to see, we were all 3 there on one side of the fence. 4 Q. Let me -- delete that, please. 5 I know that you were fearful, that you 6 probably didn't notice many details, but could you 7 roughly tell us the size of the premise that you were 8 in? 9 A. Roughly, let me try. It would be, perhaps, 10 the length of the warehouse where I was, it seemed to 11 me to be maybe about 30 metres long, 40, maybe less. 12 That's how it looked to me. And the width was maybe 15 13 metres, I don't know, maybe less, maybe more. That is 14 very roughly my estimation. I don't know exactly. 15 Q. These two young men who were taken out of the 16 warehouse allegedly to assist in collecting the 17 wounded, did they come back to the warehouse? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. Did you ask them where they went, in fact? 20 A. No, it never occurred those from your group? 22 A. No, I didn't hear them. 23 Q. Did they, themselves, say anything? 24 A. No, we just kept quiet to see what was going 25 to happen. We were all in a panic and great fear. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2561 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. Were there any injuries on them? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Witness K, as you said, you were cram ed into 4 that warehouse very close to one another so that, as 5 you put it, you couldn't move left or right an inch? 6 A. Not quite like that. You misunderstood me, 7 sir. It's not true that we really couldn't budge. But 8 I said, and I am saying, that we were cram ed full so 9 if you would try to get up and go out, you couldn't 10 stand on the ground, on the concrete. You'd have to 11 lean against someone else for a person to try and 12 get -- walk out, if somebody wanted to get out. 13 Q. It was obviously very crowded there, but when 14 the Serb soldiers entered and started shooting, you 15 said that you threw yourself on the ground? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you explain to me where did you throw 18 yourself to in view of the fact that you were so 19 crowded? 20 A. I threw myself on the ground. The Serb 21 soldier who opened fire lay on -- I lay on my stomach, 22 and I remained lying like that on the ground. 23 Q. So when the soldier opened fire. So in view 24 of the fact that it was so crowded, as you said a 25 moment ago, now, suddenly, you have enough space to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2561 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. Were there any injuries on them? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Witness K, as you said, you were cram ed into 4 that warehouse very close to one another so that, as 5 you put it, you couldn't move left or right an inch? 6 A. Not quite like that. You misunderstood me, 7 sir. It's not true that we really couldn't budge. But 8 I said, and I am saying, that we were cram ed full so 9 if you would try to get up and go out, you couldn't 10 stand on the ground, on the concrete. You'd have to 11 lean against someone else for a person to try and 12 get -- walk out, if somebody wanted to get out. 13 Q. It was obviously very crowded there, but when 14 the Serb soldiers entered and started shooting, you 15 said that you threw yourself on the ground? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you explain to me where did you throw 18 yourself to in view of the fact that you were so 19 crowded? 20 A. I threw myself on the ground. The Serb 21 soldier who opened fire lay on -- I lay on my stomach, 22 and I remained lying like that on the ground. 23 Q. So when the soldier opened fire. So in view 24 of the fact that it was so crowded, as you said a 25 moment ago, now, suddenly, you have enough space to Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2562 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 throw yourself face down on the ground? 2 A. Let me explain in greater detail, sir. I see 3 that it is not clear to you, so I want to make sure you 4 understand me properly. 5 The Serb soldier, when he opened fire, after 6 that, a couple of others, maybe five or six of them, I 7 don't know how many, I don't know exactly. When they 8 opened fire, there was panic, and people jumped to 9 their feet, one on top of another. We saw what was 10 happening and they were going to kill all of us. 11 So when the people jumped up off the ground, 12 in view of the terrible fear that was widespread, I 13 threw myself on the ground, though there wasn't too 14 much space, but I sort of stuck to the ground without 15 getting up. And after that, people started falling on 16 top of me; dead, wounded. 17 Q. Witness K, before you climbed the container 18 to get to the window and jump out, did you cross this 19 fence? 20 A. No, I didn't cross the fence. The container 21 was below the window to my left or, ratherthe photograph. It was to the left of me. So I 23 went diagonally towards the window and towards that 24 container. I climbed on the container so that I 25 stepped on to the window sill and then I jumped out. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2562 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 throw yourself face down on the ground? 2 A. Let me explain in greater detail, sir. I see 3 that it is not clear to you, so I want to make sure you 4 understand me properly. 5 The Serb soldier, when he opened fire, after 6 that, a couple of others, maybe five or six of them, I 7 don't know how many, I don't know exactly. When they 8 opened fire, there was panic, and people jumped to 9 their feet, one on top of another. We saw what was 10 happening and they were going to kill all of us. 11 So when the people jumped up off the ground, 12 in view of the terrible fear that was widespread, I 13 threw myself on the ground, though there wasn't too 14 much space, but I sort of stuck to the ground without 15 getting up. And after that, people started falling on 16 top of me; dead, wounded. 17 Q. Witness K, before you climbed the container 18 to get to the window and jump out, did you cross this 19 fence? 20 A. No, I didn't cross the fence. The container 21 was below the window to my left or, ratherthe photograph. It was to the left of me. So I 23 went diagonally towards the window and towards that 24 container. I climbed on the container so that I 25 stepped on to the window sill and then I jumped out. I Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2563 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 fell to the ground. 2 Q. How long did you remain beneath this window, 3 below the window? 4 A. For the whole night. 5 Q. And after that, as you have already 6 explained, you went to the creek, to the small river, 7 rivulet. And there were Serb soldiers everywhere 8 around you? 9 A. What do you mean "everywhere"? 10 Q. Well, in the immediate vicinity, in relation 11 to this small river. 12 A. Of course I didn't know that they were 13 there. If I had known that they were there, that they 14 had surrounded the warehouse, I wouldn't have dared 15 jump out because they would have killed me. I thought 16 they weren't there. I thought that only those outside 17 the entrance of the hangar were there next to the 18 road. When I jumped out and fell to the ground, I 19 heard a voice from the maize saying, "There's one 20 jumping out," and then I realised that there were 21 guards there, Serb army guards. 22 Q. The machine that you describe as a dredger or 23 excavator which was collecting the bodies, you didndidn't. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2563 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 fell to the ground. 2 Q. How long did you remain beneath this window, 3 below the window? 4 A. For the whole night. 5 Q. And after that, as you have already 6 explained, you went to the creek, to the small river, 7 rivulet. And there were Serb soldiers everywhere 8 around you? 9 A. What do you mean "everywhere"? 10 Q. Well, in the immediate vicinity, in relation 11 to this small river. 12 A. Of course I didn't know that they were 13 there. If I had known that they were there, that they 14 had surrounded the warehouse, I wouldn't have dared 15 jump out because they would have killed me. I thought 16 they weren't there. I thought that only those outside 17 the entrance of the hangar were there next to the 18 road. When I jumped out and fell to the ground, I 19 heard a voice from the maize saying, "There's one 20 jumping out," and then I realised that there were 21 guards there, Serb army guards. 22 Q. The machine that you describe as a dredger or 23 excavator which was collecting the bodies, you didndidn't. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2564 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. And in which part of the warehouse was this 2 machine? 3 A. You mean -- I didn't see it, but I heard the 4 noise. This was in the same direction that I jumped. 5 Q. In relation to this photograph? 6 A. Well, that was my impression. 7 Q. Could you show us on this photograph on the 8 ELMO. 9 A. Yes, I can. You want me to show you where 10 this excavator was? Is that what you mean? 11 Q. Yes. Exactly. 12 A. Here [indicates]. 13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the 14 record, the witness is showing the back part of the 15 warehouse, viewed from the direction of Bratunac, 16 Kravica. Yes, Bratunac, Kravica. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 18 Mr. Petrusic, you mean the right part of the 19 photograph, right-hand side of the photograph? 20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I was 21 trying to describe the direction of the road, but I 22 quite agree with you that it is the right-hand side of 23 the photograph. 24 Q. After that you reached Zepa. 25 A. Yes. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2564 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. And in which part of the warehouse was this 2 machine? 3 A. You mean -- I didn't see it, but I heard the 4 noise. This was in the same direction that I jumped. 5 Q. In relation to this photograph? 6 A. Well, that was my impression. 7 Q. Could you show us on this photograph on the 8 ELMO. 9 A. Yes, I can. You want me to show you where 10 this excavator was? Is that what you mean? 11 Q. Yes. Exactly. 12 A. Here [indicates]. 13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the 14 record, the witness is showing the back part of the 15 warehouse, viewed from the direction of Bratunac, 16 Kravica. Yes, Bratunac, Kravica. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 18 Mr. Petrusic, you mean the right part of the 19 photograph, right-hand side of the photograph? 20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I was 21 trying to describe the direction of the road, but I 22 quite agree with you that it is the right-hand side of 23 the photograph. 24 Q. After that you reached Zepa. 25 A. Yes. Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2565 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. On the 26th of July. 2 A. I don't know the exact date when I arrived. 3 Q. Im ediately after your arrival in Zepa, did 4 representatives of the International Red Cross give you 5 an ID card? 6 A. No, not straight away. I was in hospital for 7 four or five days. 8 Q. You were promised evacuation. 9 A. Yes, we were promised that by the Bosnian 10 Serbs, and the Red Cross made this promise. 11 Q. And then you went to prison in Rogatica. 12 A. No. Together with 12 wounded and some 13 elderly men and women and children from Zepa, we headed 14 towards Kladanj. We had a rest at Boksanica. There 15 was the Ukrainian checkpoint. Night fell while we were 16 there. And I heard there that Ratko Mladic had come, 17 General of the Bosnian Serb army, with a helicopter. I 18 saw the helicopter. And the com ander of Rogatica came 19 with an escort, asking where we came from, but they 20 didn't hurt anyone. 21 After that we continued towards Kladanj. I 22 don't know the places but I heard them mention the name 23 Luka. We got close to Kladanj and then the army of 24 Republika stopped the buses. Of course, they 25 had lists from the Red Cross that had registered us, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2565 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 Q. On the 26th of July. 2 A. I don't know the exact date when I arrived. 3 Q. Im ediately after your arrival in Zepa, did 4 representatives of the International Red Cross give you 5 an ID card? 6 A. No, not straight away. I was in hospital for 7 four or five days. 8 Q. You were promised evacuation. 9 A. Yes, we were promised that by the Bosnian 10 Serbs, and the Red Cross made this promise. 11 Q. And then you went to prison in Rogatica. 12 A. No. Together with 12 wounded and some 13 elderly men and women and children from Zepa, we headed 14 towards Kladanj. We had a rest at Boksanica. There 15 was the Ukrainian checkpoint. Night fell while we were 16 there. And I heard there that Ratko Mladic had come, 17 General of the Bosnian Serb army, with a helicopter. I 18 saw the helicopter. And the com ander of Rogatica came 19 with an escort, asking where we came from, but they 20 didn't hurt anyone. 21 After that we continued towards Kladanj. I 22 don't know the places but I heard them mention the name 23 Luka. We got close to Kladanj and then the army of 24 Republika stopped the buses. Of course, they 25 had lists from the Red Cross that had registered us, Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2566 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 they had listed all of us and the wounded, and they 2 read out from the lists and ordered board other buses. There were quite a number of old 4 men too there; they probably needed them for labour, as 5 this proved to be later. And then they drove us 6 towards Rogatica, the camp there. That's where we 7 ended up. 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 9 Mr. Petrusic, excuse me for interrupting you, but I 10 would like to know whether you intend to finish today 11 or whether we should leave the cross-examination for 12 tomorrow. Let's try and finish with the witness so as 13 not to make him come tomorrow. But I would like to 14 know whether you need a lot more time or not. 15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I will bear in 16 mind your suggestion, Mr. President. I'm almost done. 17 A couple of minutes more. 18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that 19 case, Mr. Petrusic, would you make your questions 20 precise and concrete? Then the witness will answer in 21 a similar fashion. Thank you. 22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 23 Q. Witness K, in your statement given to an 24 investigator of this Tribunal, on the 26th of November, 25 1998, you stated that you had been taken off the bus Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2566 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 they had listed all of us and the wounded, and they 2 read out from the lists and ordered board other buses. There were quite a number of old 4 men too there; they probably needed them for labour, as 5 this proved to be later. And then they drove us 6 towards Rogatica, the camp there. That's where we 7 ended up. 8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 9 Mr. Petrusic, excuse me for interrupting you, but I 10 would like to know whether you intend to finish today 11 or whether we should leave the cross-examination for 12 tomorrow. Let's try and finish with the witness so as 13 not to make him come tomorrow. But I would like to 14 know whether you need a lot more time or not. 15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I will bear in 16 mind your suggestion, Mr. President. I'm almost done. 17 A couple of minutes more. 18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that 19 case, Mr. Petrusic, would you make your questions 20 precise and concrete? Then the witness will answer in 21 a similar fashion. Thank you. 22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 23 Q. Witness K, in your statement given to an 24 investigator of this Tribunal, on the 26th of November, 25 1998, you stated that you had been taken off the bus Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2567 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 because you had a pair of military trousers on. 2 A. That I was taken off the bus? 3 Q. assume that I had been taken off the bus 4 and that I was not evacuated because I was wearing 5 military trousers." 6 A. Which location do you have in mind? Where? 7 Q. I'm reading from your statement, the 8 statement that you gave on the 26th of November, 1998. 9 A. Sir, I asked you about the location where I 10 was taken off, where I was separated, whether it was in 11 Zepa or at Luka. 12 Q. If we disregard the exact location, because 13 you're not referring to it in your statement, I should 14 like to know whether this is, indeed, what you stated. 15 A. While I was in hospital in Zepa, while I was 16 wounded, I found a pair of multicoloured trousers of 17 Russian make, and that was the only clothing that I 18 could get hold of. It was the bottom part of the 19 clothing. I couldn't walk around naked. I also had a 20 pair of cowboy boots on. This is what I had found 21 somewhere in the forest after I had fled the execution 22 site in Kravica. Because I was barefoot, I had to 23 throw away my shoes at one point, and then in one 24 discarded backpack, I found a pair of cowboy boots, and 25 this is how I reached Zepa, wearing those boots. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2567 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic 1 because you had a pair of military trousers on. 2 A. That I was taken off the bus? 3 Q. assume that I had been taken off the bus 4 and that I was not evacuated because I was wearing 5 military trousers." 6 A. Which location do you have in mind? Where? 7 Q. I'm reading from your statement, the 8 statement that you gave on the 26th of November, 1998. 9 A. Sir, I asked you about the location where I 10 was taken off, where I was separated, whether it was in 11 Zepa or at Luka. 12 Q. If we disregard the exact location, because 13 you're not referring to it in your statement, I should 14 like to know whether this is, indeed, what you stated. 15 A. While I was in hospital in Zepa, while I was 16 wounded, I found a pair of multicoloured trousers of 17 Russian make, and that was the only clothing that I 18 could get hold of. It was the bottom part of the 19 clothing. I couldn't walk around naked. I also had a 20 pair of cowboy boots on. This is what I had found 21 somewhere in the forest after I had fled the execution 22 site in Kravica. Because I was barefoot, I had to 23 throw away my shoes at one point, and then in one 24 discarded backpack, I found a pair of cowboy boots, and 25 this is how I reached Zepa, wearing those boots. Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2568 Questioned by the Court 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 2 I have no further questions. 3 Witness K, thank you very much. 4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 6 Mr. Petrusic. 7 Do you have any further questions, 8 Mr. Cayley? No. Thank you. 9 Judge Wald. 10 Questioned by the Court: 11 JUDGE WALD: Just a very few questions, 12 Witness K. 13 You say you were a member of the Bosnian army 14 at the time that you joined the column moving towards 15 Tuzla. Were all the men in that column members of the 16 Bosnian army, and if not, what proportion would you say 17 were not? 18 A. I couldn't give you the exact number. Of 19 course, I was a member of the army. 20 JUDGE WALD: Would you say the majority of 21 people in the column were members of the Bosnian army 22 or the majority were not and were just civilians? 23 A. The majority were civilians. 24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is: 25 Why did you surrender? I mean, what were the Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2568 Questioned by the Court 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 2 I have no further questions. 3 Witness K, thank you very much. 4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 6 Mr. Petrusic. 7 Do you have any further questions, 8 Mr. Cayley? No. Thank you. 9 Judge Wald. 10 Questioned by the Court: 11 JUDGE WALD: Just a very few questions, 12 Witness K. 13 You say you were a member of the Bosnian army 14 at the time that you joined the column moving towards 15 Tuzla. Were all the men in that column members of the 16 Bosnian army, and if not, what proportion would you say 17 were not? 18 A. I couldn't give you the exact number. Of 19 course, I was a member of the army. 20 JUDGE WALD: Would you say the majority of 21 people in the column were members of the Bosnian army 22 or the majority were not and were just civilians? 23 A. The majority were civilians. 24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is: 25 Why did you surrender? I mean, what were the Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2569 Questioned by the Court 1 circumstances when you had started on the march that 2 made you and your fellow marchers surrender? 3 A. Bosnian Serbs had encircled us from all 4 sides. I had already spent one night there, and when 5 it dawned, we reached a meadow just above Konjevic 6 Polje -- I don't know the name of the place but it was 7 near the wood -- and I continued like that for about 8 100 metres, in the direction of the asphalt road, and 9 this is where I found a large group of people who were 10 unarmed, had no weapons. They were simply standing 11 there. They were confused; they didn't know where to 12 go, what to do, whether to surrender or not. And the 13 Bosnian Serb army had completely surrounded us, we had 14 no where to go, and this is how we decided to 15 surrender. 16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the point that you 17 escaped from the Kravica warehouse by jumping out of 18 the window, you told us that you didn't know that there 19 were soldiers on the outside or you might not have 20 jumped. But were there soldiers guarding the prisoners 21 on the inside of the warehouse, and if so, roughly how 22 many? 23 A. Yes, occasionally they would enter the 24 warehouse. Five or six of them would always be 25 inside. Sometimes only three would remain; sometimes Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2569 Questioned by the Court 1 circumstances when you had started on the march that 2 made you and your fellow marchers surrender? 3 A. Bosnian Serbs had encircled us from all 4 sides. I had already spent one night there, and when 5 it dawned, we reached a meadow just above Konjevic 6 Polje -- I don't know the name of the place but it was 7 near the wood -- and I continued like that for about 8 100 metres, in the direction of the asphalt road, and 9 this is where I found a large group of people who were 10 unarmed, had no weapons. They were simply standing 11 there. They were confused; they didn't know where to 12 go, what to do, whether to surrender or not. And the 13 Bosnian Serb army had completely surrounded us, we had 14 no where to go, and this is how we decided to 15 surrender. 16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the point that you 17 escaped from the Kravica warehouse by jumping out of 18 the window, you told us that you didn't know that there 19 were soldiers on the outside or you might not have 20 jumped. But were there soldiers guarding the prisoners 21 on the inside of the warehouse, and if so, roughly how 22 many? 23 A. Yes, occasionally they would enter the 24 warehouse. Five or six of them would always be 25 inside. Sometimes only three would remain; sometimes Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2570 Questioned by the Court 1 there would be five of them. They would watch us, walk 2 around, and then leave. 3 JUDGE WALD: How, then, do you think you were 4 able to get over to the containercontainer and jump out without one of them seeing you? 6 A. Well, they were inside before they opened 7 fire on us. This was before. But after that, when 8 everything became quiet and the smoke dispersed, then 9 one by one they would enter and throw in hand grenades, 10 or they would finish off those who had remained alive, 11 wounded. So when they thought that everybody had been 12 killed, there was a longer lull in shooting, and at 13 that point I decided to jump through the window to save 14 myself. 15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: 16 When you were in Zepa, you mentioned that they were 17 beginning to evacuate, or they were evacuating not only 18 the wounded but some women and children and others. 19 Were you in a position to see some of that evacuation 20 taking place? I mean, were you in a position so that 21 you saw some of the civilians in Zepa being evacuated? 22 A. Yes, of course, I was there. 23 JUDGE WALD: So if that's right, are you able 24 to tell us whether or not, in that evacuation, the men 25 were separated from the women and children, and the Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2570 Questioned by the Court 1 there would be five of them. They would watch us, walk 2 around, and then leave. 3 JUDGE WALD: How, then, do you think you were 4 able to get over to the containercontainer and jump out without one of them seeing you? 6 A. Well, they were inside before they opened 7 fire on us. This was before. But after that, when 8 everything became quiet and the smoke dispersed, then 9 one by one they would enter and throw in hand grenades, 10 or they would finish off those who had remained alive, 11 wounded. So when they thought that everybody had been 12 killed, there was a longer lull in shooting, and at 13 that point I decided to jump through the window to save 14 myself. 15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: 16 When you were in Zepa, you mentioned that they were 17 beginning to evacuate, or they were evacuating not only 18 the wounded but some women and children and others. 19 Were you in a position to see some of that evacuation 20 taking place? I mean, were you in a position so that 21 you saw some of the civilians in Zepa being evacuated? 22 A. Yes, of course, I was there. 23 JUDGE WALD: So if that's right, are you able 24 to tell us whether or not, in that evacuation, the men 25 were separated from the women and children, and the Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2571 Questioned by the Court 1 women and children were put on vehicles and evacuated 2 but the men were not? 3 A. I didn't see men being separated. The 4 able-bodied men had gone to the mountain, those who had 5 weapons, and only civilians remained together with us, 6 the wounded. The wounded were separated and taken to 7 the Ukrainian Battalion compound. But I could observe 8 the evacuation of people from Zepa, and they included 9 women, children, and the elderly. 10 JUDGE WALD: But there was no formal process 11 that you observed of separating the men out from the 12 women and children for evacuation, of those that were 13 there? 14 A. No, I didn't observe that. 15 JUDGE WALD: And the Red Cross was observing 16 the evacuation; right? 17 A. Yes. 18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, Witness K. 19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your 20 Honour. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley 22 and Mr. Petrusic, what is the status of our exhibits? 23 I can see that there are several of them. 24 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. If I could 25 apply for admission into evidence of the following: Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2571 Questioned by the Court 1 women and children were put on vehicles and evacuated 2 but the men were not? 3 A. I didn't see men being separated. The 4 able-bodied men had gone to the mountain, those who had 5 weapons, and only civilians remained together with us, 6 the wounded. The wounded were separated and taken to 7 the Ukrainian Battalion compound. But I could observe 8 the evacuation of people from Zepa, and they included 9 women, children, and the elderly. 10 JUDGE WALD: But there was no formal process 11 that you observed of separating the men out from the 12 women and children for evacuation, of those that were 13 there? 14 A. No, I didn't observe that. 15 JUDGE WALD: And the Red Cross was observing 16 the evacuation; right? 17 A. Yes. 18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, Witness K. 19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your 20 Honour. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley 22 and Mr. Petrusic, what is the status of our exhibits? 23 I can see that there are several of them. 24 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. If I could 25 apply for admission into evidence of the following: Monday, 10 April 2000 Case No. Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2572 Questioned by the Court 1 The first exhibit is Prosecutor's Exhibit 2 which is a map which the witness used to 3 demonstrate to the Judges the route that he took. 4 Exhibit 118, which is the witness' 5 registration by the Red Cross. That certificate should 6 remain under seal because it has the witness' name and 7 date of birth upon it. 8 The next exhibit is Exhibit 119, which is a 9 sketch which the witness produced when he was 10 originally interviewed by the OTP. That document 11 should remain under seal because it has upon it the 12 signature of the witness and his name. There's also 13 119 bis, which is a public document, which is the 14 redacted version. It has the signature and name of the 15 witness removed. 16 Exhibit 117, which are the medical records of 17 the witness concerning the injuries he suffered at 18 Kravica, that document should remain under seal because 19 it has identifying features. 20 And then the last exhibit is Exhibit 116, 21 which is the still taken from a video, showing letters 22 in a perpendicular fashion on one of the factory 23 buildings. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. 25 Mr. Petrusic, any objections as regards the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2572 Questioned by the Court 1 The first exhibit is Prosecutor's Exhibit 2 which is a map which the witness used to 3 demonstrate to the Judges the route that he took. 4 Exhibit 118, which is the witness' 5 registration by the Red Cross. That certificate should 6 remain under seal because it has the witness' name and 7 date of birth upon it. 8 The next exhibit is Exhibit 119, which is a 9 sketch which the witness produced when he was 10 originally interviewed by the OTP. That document 11 should remain under seal because it has upon it the 12 signature of the witness and his name. There's also 13 119 bis, which is a public document, which is the 14 redacted version. It has the signature and name of the 15 witness removed. 16 Exhibit 117, which are the medical records of 17 the witness concerning the injuries he suffered at 18 Kravica, that document should remain under seal because 19 it has identifying features. 20 And then the last exhibit is Exhibit 116, 21 which is the still taken from a video, showing letters 22 in a perpendicular fashion on one of the factory 23 buildings. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. 25 Mr. Petrusic, any objections as regards the Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2573 Questioned by the Court 1 exhibits tendered under seal? 2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, we do not 3 object to the exhibits tendered by the Prosecutor. We 4 would also like to tender D14 into evidence. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 6 any objection to this one, No. Thank you very 7 much. 8 Therefore, Exhibit D14, Prosecutor's 9 118, 119, and 117 will be admitted into evidence, 10 including two exhibits admitted under seal. 11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, 12 Mr. President. These exhibits have been admitted. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank 14 you, Mr. Dubuisson. 15 Mr. Cayley, any remarks? 16 MR. CAYLEY: It's my fault, actually, 17 Mr. President, because I gave you the exhibits out of 18 order. There's also Exhibit 116, which I actually 19 mentioned last on the list but which you didn't mention 20 when you were admitting these exhibits into evidence. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe 22 you didn't get the interpretation, but I remember 23 mentioning it. Exhibit 116, is that the one? Yes. 24 Very well, then. Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. 25 Before we adjourn for the day, I should like Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness (Open Session) Page 2573 Questioned by the Court 1 exhibits tendered under seal? 2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, we do not 3 object to the exhibits tendered by the Prosecutor. We 4 would also like to tender D14 into evidence. 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, 6 any objection to this one, No. Thank you very 7 much. 8 Therefore, Exhibit D14, Prosecutor's 9 118, 119, and 117 will be admitted into evidence, 10 including two exhibits admitted under seal. 11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, 12 Mr. President. These exhibits have been admitted. 13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank 14 you, Mr. Dubuisson. 15 Mr. Cayley, any remarks? 16 MR. CAYLEY: It's my fault, actually, 17 Mr. President, because I gave you the exhibits out of 18 order. There's also Exhibit 116, which I actually 19 mentioned last on the list but which you didn't mention 20 when you were admitting these exhibits into evidence. 21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe 22 you didn't get the interpretation, but I remember 23 mentioning it. Exhibit 116, is that the one? Yes. 24 Very well, then. Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. 25 Before we adjourn for the day, I should like Monday, 10 Aptil 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Pmcedm-a1 Matters (Open Session) Page 2574 1 to tell the parties that we would like to have a short 2 Status Conference on the 13th of this month, this week 3 therefore. We will have to finish the session at ten 4 minutes past two and we will try to have a 5 20-minute-long Status Conference. 6 The reason for this Status Conference is that 7 I should like to see where we are in relation to the 8 plan that was established at the beginning, that is, 9 how can we save even more time and speed up things a 10 little bit. So I should like to hear the Prosecutor as 11 regards the possibility of finishing his case, the 12 Prosecution case, before the sum er recess, and also I 13 should like to hear the Defence and the plans as 14 regarding their case, because we have to bear in mind 15 the schedule. 16 We will after that try to set up a calendar, 17 after this Status Conference, taking into account all 18 the possibilities that remain open. So this was all 19 that I wanted to tell you for the time being. 20 I should also like to address the witness 21 before he leaves. Witness K, you have finished your 22 testimony before the International Criminal Tribunal. 23 Thank you very much for coming to testify here. We do 24 hope that you will have a long life and that you will 25 be able to change your opinion, what you mentioned Monday, 10 April 2000 Case N0. Pmcedm-a1 Matters (Open Session) Page 2574 1 to tell the parties that we would like to have a short 2 Status Conference on the 13th of this month, this week 3 therefore. We will have to finish the session at ten 4 minutes past two and we will try to have a 5 20-minute-long Status Conference. 6 The reason for this Status Conference is that 7 I should like to see where we are in relation to the 8 plan that was established at the beginning, that is, 9 how can we save even more time and speed up things a 10 little bit. So I should like to hear the Prosecutor as 11 regards the possibility of finishing his case, the 12 Prosecution case, before the sum er recess, and also I 13 should like to hear the Defence and the plans as 14 regarding their case, because we have to bear in mind 15 the schedule. 16 We will after that try to set up a calendar, 17 after this Status Conference, taking into account all 18 the possibilities that remain open. So this was all 19 that I wanted to tell you for the time being. 20 I should also like to address the witness 21 before he leaves. Witness K, you have finished your 22 testimony before the International Criminal Tribunal. 23 Thank you very much for coming to testify here. We do 24 hope that you will have a long life and that you will 25 be able to change your opinion, what you mentioned Monday, 10 April 2000 Case N0. Procedm-al Matters (Open Session) Page 2575 1 here. You said that you had seen a number of horror 2 films and that which you experienced was much worse. 3 We do agree with you, but we also hope that you will be 4 able to find courage to change that perspective in 5 life. Thank you. 6 So tomorrow at 9.30 we will gather here 7 again. Thank you very much. 8 Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9 2.53 to be reconvened on Tuesday, 10 the day of April, 2000, at 11 9.30 a.Monday, 10 Apdl 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Procedm-al Matters (Open Session) Page 2575 1 here. You said that you had seen a number of horror 2 films and that which you experienced was much worse. 3 We do agree with you, but we also hope that you will be 4 able to find courage to change that perspective in 5 life. Thank you. 6 So tomorrow at 9.30 we will gather here 7 again. Thank you very much. 8 Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9 2.53 to be reconvened on Tuesday, 10 the day of April, 2000, at 11 9.30 a.Monday, 10 Apdl 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T