EFTA01784888

From: Joscha Bach < Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:48 PM To: Jeffrey Epstein Subject: Re: > On Aug 24, 2016, at 06:09, jeffrey E. <[email protected]> wrote: > do you believe a bunch of chemicalls has a goal, ? It depends a bit on how we use the words; do you think that a bunch of =hemicals can do mathematics or be money? I think it makes sense to say =yes". A goal is part of a causal model that we use to describe a agent that =an commit to pursuing a world state. Outside of this model, the word =as no meaning. Within the model, it makes the behavior of some bunches =f chemicals somewhat predictable on a particular level. I think most chemical systems do not have goals, in the sense that we =annot meaningfully ascribe to them that they have agency. For that, =hey need - some kind of preference system, - a way to determine and represent world states, - a way to make decisions for world states based on the preferences, - a way to act on decisions so that the preferred world state becomes =ore likely. For instance, a corporation is an agent in this sense, and a cat is too. =erhaps George Church would say that cells can have goals, too. A Roomba cleaning robot is a particularly good example: when it cleans =he room, it has no goal, because it has no model of the cleanliness of =he room, and no preference to make it cleaner. We can test for this: if =ts dirt container is full, it will happily make a clean room more =irty, because it just moves randomly around while rotating its brushes. =he cleaning is an emergent result. On the other hand, when it runs low on battery, it will explicitly =earch for its power station and drive there to recharge, and after =hat, it will continue cleaning. It explicitly represents the charging =tate, and when starved for power, it commits to a goal that makes it =irect its actions on entering that state. Valentino Braitenberg, in his classical book "vehicles", looks at =ifferent kinds of cybernetic feedback systems, and at different kinds =f agency that can be implemented in them. My own thinking is mostly =haped by the ideas of social agency, by the Italian computer scientist =ristiano Castelfranchi, and by Aaron Sloman. > isnt that in your words just one of the stories we tell =urselves.? why is it not merely chemicals I would say that a goal is part of a "software specification". Nature =an get a bunch of chemicals to enact this specification. But it can =lso be done mechanically, electrically or socially. > . like in a magnetic field forced to line up with other chemcilas =n the vicinity, . more hike magnets lining up. Do you think there is a lowest level, and that it makes sense to =peculate what it is? EFTA_R1_00106576 EFTA01784888 Fundamental physics explores the idea of the lowest causally closed =eve'. I made an online survey during the FQXi conference, and got 49 =esponses from the participants. 18 believed that the universe is =undamentally just mathematics or information (8 of those think it is =ust information). 19 believe in a material universe (4 of those think =nly space or spacetime exists). 15 respondents hold that a conscious =bserver or God is necessary (some of them overlap with the =aterialists). For what its worth, the idea that only information is real does not seem =o be especially strange. What is your view/intuition? You are right when you say that my view is strongly influenced by being = computer scientist. Once I made the leap that our observations of the =orld are fundamentally not different from what a computer game player =an observer on his screen, and that we can produce every conceivable =equence of observations via a computer program, I saw no way out again, =specially after I got to see observers/minds as computer programs, too. =verything we know about ourselves, we know through sequences of =bservations, too, and observations are sets of discernible differences == bits of information). Cheers, Joscha <?xml version=.0" encoding=TF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/Propertylist-1.0.dtd"> <plist version=.0"> <dict> <key>date-last-viewed</key> <integer>0</integer> <key>date-received</key> <integer>1472057283</integer> <key>flags</key> <integer>8590195717</integer> <key>gmail-label-ids</key> <array> <integer>2</integer> <integer>22</integer> </array> <key>remote-id</key> <string>638544</string> </dict> </plist> 2 EFTA_R1_00106577 EFTA01784889