EFTA02459148

From: Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 4:37 AM To: Jeffrey E. Subject: Re: quick question -- AGI-16 snacks and reception sponsorship? About the sponsorship -- should I list one of your organizations on the conference materials as a sponsor? If so which one? Enhanced Education again? thx... On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey E. <[email protected]> wrote: > first paper is silly, it does not include rythm, only notes. points > but no temporal shape. sorry > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote: » Hmmm... » I have been thinking a lot about music too, but from a different » perspective... » Do you know this paper on Combinatorial Music Theory? » paper: » http://andrewduncan.net/cmt/ » video: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMDtp89Xqlw >> » It's extremely good, it clarifies some basics of music theory in a » mathematical way without the confusing archaic terminology of » standard music theory... and suggests various interesting new directions... » This paper is also related and somewhat worthwhile >> » https://www.math.washington.edu/morrow/336_09/papers/Ada.pdf » though neither as easy-to-read nor as interesting... » What these papers are getting as are the hidden abstract-algebraic » and information-theoretic structures underlying melody and harmony... » What you're talking about regarding symphonies is sort of like » "narrative structure" in stories it seems like -- or "discourse » planning" in dialogue -- i.e. it's higher-level » That level is important, for sure. But what the papers I've linked » above are getting at is a bit lower-level --- more analogous to the EFTA_R1_01563924 EFTA02459148 » syntax and phrase/sentence level semantics of language, I would say. » The algebra and information theory of melody and harmony have to work » out at the level of individual chords and melodic passages, for the » higher-level development of a symphony or other complex work to make » sense... » About >» I mashed all of the four symphonies together , >» playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on >» each other, » I have done stuff like that before, but not with classical music... » with my own recordings ;) .... Do you have a sound file of your » experiment? I'd be curious to hear... » Interestingly, the "plumbing" work we've been doing to connect » OpenCog to the Hanson robots would also enable us to use OpenCog for » music composition / improvisation experimentation ... (i.e. we've » been dealing with real-time input and output, which we hadn't been » doing » before) » But at the moment (this opinion is of course subject to revision) I » somewhat feel that the basic problem of "what makes a melody » /harmony / rhythm pattern sound emotionally and cognitively » appealing" has to be solved before one moves on to issues of symphonic structure.... » I.e., we probably gotta solve folk music before we can solve » Beethoven or Bartok ... » Meyer's old theory of "surprising fulfillment of expectations" » http://rhythmcoglab.coursepress.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2 » 014/10/Emotion-and-Meaning-in-Music.pdf » is basically correct IMO (if you don't know that book check it out, » you'll love his classical music examples) ... but the subtle point is » that the expectations and the surprise we experience are a subtle mix » of » -- basic mathematical music-structure factors, as in the vein of the » two papers I linked above » -- human psychology factors as modeled e.g. in Joscha's work and in » the Component Process Model >> » http://boccignone.di.unimi.it/CompAff2015_files/Phil.%20Trans.%20R.%2 » 0Soc.%208-2009-Scherer-3459-74.pdf) » which we have introduced into the OpenCog / Hanson Robot codebase to » fill in certain gaps in Psi >> 2 EFTA_R1_01563925 EFTA02459149 » -- human body-rhythm patterns, to do with the way the rhythms of » different subsystems of our physical bodies overlay on each other, » which we perceive all the time sub and semi consciously and which » influence our perception of music; obviously even classical music » without a drumbeat is highly rhythmic... » -- more abstract cognitive pattern recognition » So a good melody packs up "surprising fulfillment of expectations" » where the expectation and fulfillment are assessed according to a » combination of the above 4 factors ... and if you leave any of the » above 4 factors out you're going to get lots of "false positives" ... » All of the above factors are there in Chinese, African etc. music as » well as Western music, but manifested in different ways... » I can pretty clearly see how to seriously investigate the above but I » can't at the moment see a "quick and dirty" way to make huge progress » quickly ... while seemingly simple, the question of "what makes a » melody appealing" actually wraps up a lot of issues ... BODY, » EMOTION, COGNITION ... plus MATH-OF-MUSIC ... » Fascinating stuff though ;) » If you want to design a research programme in this direction I'd be » game to participate; I don't want to drop my other OpenCog R&D » obviously but music just fascinates me at a heart as well as head » level, so I'd be willing to put some time into this in parallel with » making the Hanson robots work... I do have a feeling that to really » crack the problem of what makes a melody sound good, one has to crack » the problem of how feeling and body and cognition work together, » which is a key problem for AGI generally speaking... >> » -- Ben » P. S. » Of course, complex development of themes and counter and sub themes » and so forth is not exclusive to Western classical music.... For » instance this 30 minute instrumental-rock song composed by Buckethead » in memoriam for his mother has incredible subtlety of development >> » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESPXYehriYY >> » ... so many themes introduced in the first half and then complexly, » genetically crossed over and synergized in the second half.. It is » my firm conviction that Buckethead will be remembered as the » Beethoven of the early 21st century ;) » For me the ultimate is Prometheus, by Scriabin, though... » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGEwho6Dbnc 3 EFTA_R1_01563926 EFTA02459150 » do you know it? Wow.... This is cognitive and emotional development » beyond the ordinary human level, such as only a true genius madman » could produce. I had an amazing mental experience in San Francisco » in 2012 listening to Prometheus 10 times in succession ... try it » sometime... >> » On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Jeffrey E. <[email protected]> wrote: >» looking for Al and music. . a melody is a strange object, it is an >» inter >» as well as intra relation with notes and time. . there are inherent >» harmonies. and dissonance.. what i wrote to chonsky this moring » > >» today I conducted an experiment encouraged by Noam's wholly justified >» aggressive and detailed directives to joscha.. joshcha focused on >» layers >» being developed in the brain . the timing for the development of >» each layer being different per species . >» I postulate that music might be a frosted window into that structure. >» symphonies begin with their first " layer " a theme. in fact , there >» might be more than one theme in the first layer „ the second part of >» symphonic form is the complex development stage. where those themes >» are inverted, deconstructed , reconstructed etc ,and the development >» stage >» takes the most time . in the conclusion of the symphonic form the >» recapitulation of all that has come before it forms a " phenenoma >» of the >» piece " a whole ,made up of its smaller concepts . As opposed to >» listening to music to record which neuron is firing, as most >» musciolgists >» attempt . I propose that the music may be the audible result of those >» neurons firing, made possible by a select few who would attempt to >» notate >» those neuronal firings. Beethoven for example. »> >» The experiment . I mashed all of the four symphonies together , >» playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on >» each other, playing at the same time. - the way a brain might >» develop. I expected an >» ordered noise but to the surprising contrary , IT WAS AMAZING. . >» you can hear new "concepts " forming, »> >» it wonder whether in the mind of a blind child , the " music" >» would be created even without the visual referencial. but created >» none the less. >» later when the visual can be tied to concepts , the anatomy may be >» hijacked to produce sounds . that somehow relate to the concepts. » > . »> >» I tried to mix music from different cultures- it didn't work. African >» does not work with western europe,- chinese works with neither of 4 EFTA_R1_01563927 EFTA02459151 >» the other two. but within the same cultural music ( the brain of >» the local species >» ) the mash ups are beautiful. »> >» I would note that computers engage in "parallel processing" only >» in order to take a hard problem and break it into its component >» parts , working on each component separately, here each problem >» Interacts and the their resolutions interact in remarkable ways. >> > » > >» On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ben Goertzel - wrote: » » »» (i.e. being a "fiscal sponsor" for the HLAI/AGI conference is »» within »» Humanity+'s mandate as a 501(c)3, so there's no problem here...) » » »» On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Ben Goertzel < wrote: »»> We can route the donation through Humanity+, which is a 501(c)3 » >» as » >» we have done with some of your previous donations for my research... » » > » >» On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Jeffrey E. » >» <[email protected]> » >» wrote: » » » is it a 501 c 3 » » » » » » On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Ben Goertzel » <=EM > » » » wrote: » » >» » » >» Hey there, » » >» » » >» Hope you're well... » » >» »» >» I'll send you another email about connecting this summer while »» >» I'm in the US if you'll be around... » » >» »» >» This email pertains to the AGI-16 / Human-Level Al conference »» >» which occurs upcoming week in New York (July 16-19).... at » » >» the New School. » » >» » » >» We are doing the last-minute nitty-gritty conference planning » » >» and find ourselves short on cash for snacks and for drinks at » » >» the conference reception / poster-session ... (the New School » » >» venue proved more costly than planned... we chose New School » » >» as an old college friend of mine is a prof and administrator »» >» there...) » » >» »» >» So I'm wondering if you might be willing to do a US$3000 » » >» sponsorship (we have two other sponsors at the US$3000 level: » » >» Vicarious Systems, » » >» and Demiurge Technologies).... (We don't actually need the $$ 5 EFTA_R1_01563928 EFTA02459152 » » >» wired » » >» immediately, a commitment is enough)... » » >» » » >» We can then serve everyone "drinks and snacks courtesy of » » >» Jeffrey Epstein Foundation", or whatever foundation name you » » >» prefer (or just keep it quiet if you prefer) » » >» » » >» This is not insanely critical, but it would be a help... I » » >» believe these conferences are still quite valuable in terms of » » >» keeping free and open dialogue about AGI going in the research »» >» community, as opposed to having AGI work entirely sucked into »» >» the proprietary halls of big companies... » » >» »» >» thanks » » >» Ben » » >» » » >» » » >» -- » » >» Ben Goertzel, PhD » » >» http://goertzel.org » » >» »» >» Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global »» >» Brain is currently struggling to form... » » » » » » » » » » » » »»»-- »»» please note » » » The information contained in this communication is » » » confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may » » » constitute inside information, and is intended only for » »» the use of the addressee. It is the property of » » » JEE »»» Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this » » » communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited » » » and may be unlawful. If you have received this » » » communication in error, please notify us immediately by » » » return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and » »» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, » »» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >> >> > >> >> > » » > » » > -- » >» Ben Goertzel, PhD » >» http://goertzel.org » » > »»> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain » >» is » >» currently struggling to form... >> >> 6 EFTA_R1_01563929 EFTA02459153 » » »» » » -- » » Ben Goertzel, PhD » » http://goertzel.org » » » » Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is » » currently struggling to form... »> »> »> »> » > -- » > please note >» The information contained in this communication is >» confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >» JEE >» Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >» communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >» communication in error, please notify us immediately by >» return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved » -- » Ben Goertzel, PhD » http://goertzel.org » Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is » currently struggling to form... > please note > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > JEE > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, 7 EFTA_R1_01563930 EFTA02459154 > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is currently struggling to form... <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/Propertylist-1.0.dtd"> <plist version="1.0"> <dict> <key>conversation-id</key> <integer>75384</integer> <key>date-last-viewed</key> <integer>0</integer> <key>date-received</key> <integer>1468211804</integer> <key>flags</key> <integer>8590195717</integer> <key>gmail-label-ids</key> <array> <integer>6</integer> <integer>2</integer> </array> <key>remote-id</key> <string>626936</string> </dict> </plist> 8 EFTA_R1_01563931 EFTA02459155