EFTA02569987

From: Jeffrey Epstein <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesda , Ma 28, 2013 11:06 AM To: Subject: Re: Thanks sorry, i posed a sloppy question. / From the v=ew of understanding music, more akin to thought, i think that you=need to careful that reductionism isn't taken to the absurd level, of =ooking at the string makeup and how it causes sympathetic vibrations, =might look like intent . there is a code that says , hit these strin=s and a melody develops. it has a temporal component , it has amp=itude, but unless it is looked at as a whole the music is not there. =AO I like aversive , as it appears hard wired, as anothe= out side idea, look at the mathematics of lightning, it descrive= well neural firings, with energy minimization. On Tue,=May 28, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Ed Boyden <-> wrot=: The piano itself isn't quite the analogy=to the brain, because it has no memory, independent of the human playing it. After the finger lifts, the strings quiets down. So I am assuming that we need to model the human playing the piano? Suppose, say, we want to understand what emotion is generating the music. If we could measure activity in the brain of the person playing the piano, and could predict what melody or sequence of notes the person would play, based on that activity, then we could infer that the internal brain activity was causing the melody. This inference might be convertible into proof, if we were to stimulate the brain and play back an activity pattern into the brain, seeing how that would alter the melody being played. And if we have a molecular map of the brain, simulation begin to see how the molecular interactions between cells, yield dynamics of the network, which then yield the sequence of finger commands that yield the music. Thus, the finger is the interface between two dynamical systems -- the brain and the piano. Each of those dynamical systems has a physical implementation that can be modeled, if we have three things: -- mechanistic maps (piano: string lengths, material properties, etc.) --dynamics (piano: the finger movements and temporal scuplting) -- control (piano: we can modulate the human and see how the music chang=s) Ed On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jeffrey Epstein <[email protected] <mailto:jeev=cation@gmail,com» wrote: > give me a piano music analogy, / watching the strings, ? afte= key > inputs,? interesting byt not dispositive of anything meaningful EFTA_R1_01737564 EFTA02569987 > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Ed Boyden < <mailto:esb@m=dia.mit.edu» wrote: » I agree we need a top-down! Two thoughts: » -- Yes, developing mapping circuit technology and then applying=it to » simple behaviors -- hard wired aversive stuff -- is indeed a way t= » go. As we plan out these mapping technologies, we're actual=y » beginning experiments to map out these aversive things too. We =re » collaborating with many groups along these lines. We need to fi=ish » the fundamental technology building so that we can obtain maps at =he » right level, and then we can acquire datasets that are compatible =ith » top-down theory, to be sure. » -- Another way to think top-down is to work our way inwards, fr=m the » observables. We know that behavior -- movement, speech, other a=tion » -- is observable; if a feeling or thought is prominent enough, it =ill » be manifest through these channels as an observable. Thus we ca= also » try to infer internal states by their effects on observables, and =hen » to associate neural activity with these internal states and » observables. In theory this should scale to arbitrarily complex=br> » internal states, not just simple aversive states. » Best, » Ed » On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jeffrey Epstein <[email protected]> » wrote: >» i think you need a top down as well as bottom up. as l=oking at my >» piano >» while being played, i can go string by string ( not str=ng theory >» strings). hammer by hammer, material of string , molecu=ar interaction >» naturalvibration, harmonics, sympathtice vibration =A0but i would not >» hear >» or understand the melody or music being played. I beli=ve that each >» individual has its own encrpytion algorithm, as t=e neural net >» grows >» it encrypts some input signals. some are hard wired. so=instead of >» emotion >» , movement, speech, etc, I think a proitable area of initail =nquiry >» should >» be the hard wired aversive stuff only. smell of de=d meat. >» reaction >» to fire. i tihnk that aesthectics will be the greatest ra=ion of >» output to >» input. . or the least energy to decode. . dissonanc=, cannot be >» easily >» resolved so the energy to decode the information, is too high=and >» becomes » > painful. Does a dream state come upon us, or do we=dream all the >» time >» and concious state relegates the dreams to behind the screen.= When » > sleep >» deprived the dreams begin to pop through the screen, as=br> >» hallucinations. 2 EFTA_R1_01737565 EFTA02569988 >» a breakdown of the screen , results in a form of schizphrenia= where >» they >» cann no longer distiguish between voices. dream produced w=ile awake or >» the >» awake state angel on the shoulder whispering. . I am =n avid funder >» of >» the bleeding edge in many fields. keep me up to date on w=at you are >» doing, and hope to see you in your own habitat. >> > »> >» On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Ed Boyden <-> wrote: » » » » Hi Jeffrey, » » »» Yes, it was great chatting about all the ways neuroengine=ring is »» going to go in the coming years, revealing both fundament=l »» mechanistic brain maps, and providing the control knobs f=r fixing » » brain disorders and understanding complex phenomena like<=r> » » consciousness. Would be great to talk about how then t= make » » mathematical sense of these maps and control knobs... =rguably the »» big stumbling block to date is the lack of good data, but=that's about »» to change, thanks to our current and future efforts! T=en we will »» have many things that require deep mathematics to underst=nd! » » » » Ed » » »» On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Joi Ito <[email protected]> wrote: » >» Hi Jeffrey. » » > » >» Thanks for a really enjoyable conversation and your =ospitality » >» tonight. » >» Look forward to connecting again and receiving you a= the Media Lab » >» on my » >» turf. ;-) » » > » >» Joi » » > » » » » » » » » -- » » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. » » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group » » Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute= » » Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cogni=ive Sciences » » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson In=estigator, »» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator »» MIT, Room E1S-421, 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 » » office - <tel:%28617%29%20324.3085> » » cell - <tel:%28650%29%20468-5625> » » email - » » fax - <tel:%28617%29%20253-6285> 3 EFTA_R1_01737566 EFTA02569989 » » skype - » » web - htt ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org » » twitter - tik• ** ********* ••• ********* * ********* *** ******** *•******* » > >» The information contained in this communication is >» confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >» Jeffrey Epstein >» Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >» communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >» communication in error, please notify us immediately by >» return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <mailto:jeevacation@g=ail.com> , and >» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group » Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, » Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Scie=ces » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigato=, » and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator » MIT, Room E15-421, 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 » office - <tel:%28617%29%20324.3085> » cell - <tel:%28650%29%20468-5625> » email - <mailto > =br> » fax - = <tel:%28617%29%20253-6285> » skype - » web - http://syntheticneurobiolo y.org » twitter - > -- > *it*** ******** *S.** ******* * ********* * ********* ********* ***** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > Jeffrey Epstein > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited 4 EFTA_R1_01737567 EFTA02569990 > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to <mailto:[email protected]> , and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator MIT, Room E15-421, 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 office - ( <tel:%28617%29%20324-3085> cell - ( <tel:%28650%29%20468-5625> email <mailto fax - ( <tel:%28617%29%20253-6285> skype - web - http:/=syntheticneurobiology.org <http://syntheticneurobiology.org> twitter - http:// The information contained in this c=mmunication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the a=dressee. It is the property of Jeffrey Epstein Unauthorized use, di=closure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictl= prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, p=ease notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], =nd destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachm=nts. copyright -all rights reserved 5 EFTA_R1_01737568 EFTA02569991