EFTA02726638

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA Case No. 09-062943 (07) RAZORBACK FUNDING, LLC, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al., Defendants. DAY 9 - MORNING SESSION DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN DATE TAKEN: TIME: PLACE: December 22, 2011 8:37 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. James Lawrence King Federal Justice Building 99 N.E. Fourth Street Courtroom 11-3 Miami, Florida 33128 Examination of the witness taken before: Michele L. Savoy, Registered Professional Reporter United Reporting, Inc. 1218 S.E. Third Avenue Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33316 (954) 525-2221 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726638 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2346 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA Case No. 10-24110 CACE(19) EDWARD J. MORSE and CAROL A. MORSE, and MORSE OPERATIONS, INC. Plaintiffs, vs. SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al., Defendants. AMY ADAMS, et. al, Plaintiffs, vs. Case No. 11-CV-61688-JIC/LSS SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, TD BANK, N.A. and GIBRALTAR PRIVATE BANK AND TRUST COMPANY, Defendants. 10-03767-RBR Stettin v. Gibraltar Private Bank & Trust Co. 10-03802-RBR Stettin v. Centurion Structured Growth, LLC, et al 11-02368-RBR Stettin v. TD Bank, N.A. 11-02288-RBR Stettin v. Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund 11-02473-RBR Stettin v. Regent Capital Partners, LLC, et al 11-02604-RBR Stettin v. Maple Leaf Drilling Partners, et al 11-02605-RBR Stettin v. Don King Productions, Inc. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726639 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2347 (Counsel appearing on the foregoing appearance pages reflect counsel that attended at least one day during the deposition. It does not reflect their appearance each and every session.) APPEARANCES FOR SCOTT ROTHSTEIN: LAW OFFICE OF MARC S. NURIK 1 East Broward Boulevard Suite 700 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: MARC S. NURIK, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR THE CHAPTER 11 TRUSTEE, HERBERT STETTIN: BERGER SINGERMAN 350 East Las Olas Boulevard Suite 1000 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: CHARLES H. LICHTMAN, ESQUIRE and GENOVESE, JOBLOVE & BATTISTA, P.A. 100 S.E. 2nd Street Suite 4400 Miami, Florida 33131 By: JOHN. H. GENOVESE, ESQUIRE DAVID C. CIMO, ESQUIRE THERESA M.B. VAN VLIET, ESQUIRE JESUS SUAREZ, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR RAZORBACK: CONRAD & SCHERER, LLP 633 South Federal Highway Eighth Floor Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33302 By: WILLIAM R. SCHERER, ESQUIRE ERIC RAYMAN, ESQUIRE IVAN J. KOPAS, ESQUIRE and KOZYAK, TROPIN & THROCKMORTON, P.A. 2525 Ponce de Leon Boulevard Ninth Floor Coral Gables, Florida 33134 By: HARLEY S. TROPIN, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726640 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2348 APPEARANCES FOR PLATINUM PARTNERS VALUE ARBITRAGE CENTURION STRUCTURED GROWTH, LLC: GOLDSTEIN, TANEN & TRENCH, P.A. One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3700 Two South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 By: SUSAN E. TRENCH, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR THE COMMITTEE OF UNSECURED CREDITORS: AKERMAN, SENTERFITT One Southeast Third Avenue 25th Floor Miami, Florida 33131-1704 By: MICHAEL GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE JONATHAN S. ROBBINS, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR TD BANK: GREENBERG TRAURIG, P.A. 401 E Las Olas Blvd Ste 2000 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: HOLLY SKOLNICK, ESQUIRE DONNA EVANS, ESQUIRE MARK SCHNAPP, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR RLI ZURICH INSURANCE COMPANY, COLUMBIA INC. & ZURICH INSURANCE: CLAUSIN MILLER One Chase Manhattan Plaza 39th Floor New York, New York 10005 BY: SCOTT L. SCHMOOKLER, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726641 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2349 APPEARANCES FOR FEDERAL INSURANCE COMPANY: ALEX HOFRICHTER, P.A 1430 South Dixie Highway Suite 204 Coral Gables, Florida 331463127 By: ALEX HOFRICHTER, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR MORSES: TRIPP SCOTT, P.A. 110 S.E. Sixth Street,15th Floor Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: GEORGE WALKER, ESQUIRE JOHN M. MULLIN, ESQUIRE and LAW OFFICES OF ROBERTA DEUTSCH 2499 Glades Road Suite 110 Boca Raton, Florida 33431 By: ROBERTA M. DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR EMESS CAPITAL, LLC: KLUGER KAPLAN SILVERMAN, KATZEN & LEVINE, PL 201 S Biscayne Blvd Fl 17 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: CASEY H. CUSICK, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR ST. PAUL FIRE & MARINE: MILLS PASKERT DIVERS P.A. 100 N Tampa St Ste 2010 Tampa, Florida 33602 BY: JOHN A. BLACK, JR., ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR ROSANNE CARETSKY: BILLING COCHRAN LYLES 515 E Las Olas Blvd Floor Six Fort Lauderdale, Florida 333012296 By: DAN GELBER, ESQUIRE TUCKER CRAIG, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726642 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2350 APPEARANCES FOR PLATINUM & CENTURION: CURTIS, MALLET-PREVOST, COLT & MOSLE, LLP 101 Park Avenue New York, NY 10178-0061 By: GABRIEL HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE ELIOT LAUER, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR MURRAY HUBERFELD, DAVID BODNER & MARK NORDLICHT: By: HARVEY WERBLOWSKY, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR FEPICT, MS GROUP: NYSTROM, BECKMAN & PARIS One Marina Park Dr., 15th Flr. Boston, MA 02210 By: JACK SEIGAL, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR MICHAEL SZAFRANKSI: LYDECKER, DIAZ 1221 Brickell Avenue Floor 19 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: CHRISTOPHER G. BERGA, ESQUIRE MIGUEL J. CHAMORRO, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR GIBRALTAR: STEARNS WEAVER MILLER, et al. 150 W Flagler St Ste 2200 Miami, Florida 331301545 BY: MARY BARZEE-FLORES, ESQ. MATTHEW DATES, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR FRANK PREVE: PODHURST ORSEK 25 W Flagler St Ste 800 Miami, Florida 331301720 BY: RAMON A. RASCO, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726643 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2351 APPEARANCES FOR LEVINSON PEARSON & ASSOCIATES, WATCH U-WANT, INC.: KOPELOWITZ OSTROW 200 SW 1st Ave Ste 1200 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: BART A. HOUSTON, ESQUIRE JAN ATLAS, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR THE US GOVERNMENT: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE 500 E. Broward Blvd., Ste. 700 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida 33394 BY: CYNTHIA STONE, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR FRANK SPINOSA: SCHLESINGER AND COTZEN, P.L. 799 Brickell Plz Ste 700 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: MICHAEL J. SCHLESINGER, ESQUIRE and MICHAEL COTZEN, ESQUIRE and SAMUEL J. RABIN, ESQUIRE 799 Brickell Plaza Suite 606 Miami, Florida 33131 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2352 INDEX CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. DIRECT ROTHSTEIN FURTHER DIRECT Mr. Rasco 2356 Ms. Barzee-Flores 2393 Mr. Rabin 2458 Mr. Rasco 2510 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 2516 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2517 PREVE'S EXHIBIT INDEX NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO 272 FP112310-0143388/1 2368 273 FP112310-0134610/1 2393 274 FP112310-0145380/1 2393 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726645 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2353 Thereupon, the following proceedings were had: MR. RASCO: Ready to go? THE WITNESS: I'm ready. You represent who again? MR. RASCO: I represent Frank Preve. MR. CUSICK: Counsel, before you begin, I'm just going to put an objection on the record. On behalf of Emess Capital, as to not being permitted time in this deposition to depose Mr. Rothstein, I object to the counsel for the trustee's violation of the protocol orders, an order permitting Emess to depose Mr. Rothstein at this deposition by trying to shut us out of the deposition. THE COURT REPORTER: I'm having trouble hearing you, sir. Maybe you move closer. MR. CUSICK: We object to counsel for the trustee's violation of the various protocol orders in trying to shut us out of the deposition by refusing us time to depose Mr. Rothstein, by failing to timely send over his exhibits, in accordance with the protocol orders. On the same basis, we move to strike the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726646 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2354 testimony taken by the Trustee and also the testimony taken by TD Bank, based upon the inability to cross-examine Mr. Rothstein as to that testimony, also the failure to abide by the court order by sending over exhibits timely. We reserve the right to depose Mr. Rothstein at a future date, and we reserve all rights against the Trustee and TD Bank. We further object on behalf of all other entities which are represented by the Law Firm of Kluger Kaplan to the extent that the Trustee served notices of taking deposition that were filed in those cases prior to those entities being served with the complaint; and we move to strike those notices of taking deposition. Thank you very much. Sorry to eat into your time. MR. LICHTMAN: Let the record reflect in the underlying Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler case pending before Judge Cohn, as well as in the protocol orders, neither of them afforded Emess Capital any entitlement whatsoever to take or participate in the questioning of United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726647 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2355 Mr. Rothstein. It was a tightly negotiated order; and, indeed, Emess came late to the table, and as we have told Emess, and numerous other parties, we are hopeful that there will be another round of discrete depositions that don't focus on what we call "the big case" or the other two limited depositions that are commencing today. So I think that the objections are all completely frivolous and baseless and in bad faith. MR. CUSICK: Also let the record reflect that prior to the first date of the deposition, the Court entered an order permitting Emess to depose Mr. Rothstein and that we were not privy to any discussions concerning the protocols that the depositions and -- COURT REPORTER: I can't hear you, sir. MR. SCHLESIGNER: Guys, we can do all this during lunch time. MR. LICHTMAN: We can put this on the record later. Let's get going. Whereupon, SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, acknowledged having been duly sworn to tell the truth United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726648 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2356 and testified upon his oath as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. MR. NURIK: Counsel, did you send me the documents? MR. RASCO: No. I only have very limited exhibits. I'll bring them up to you -- well, actually, you know what, I'll bring them to you right now. I only have a few, and I'm probably not going to use them. I apologize, Mr. Nurik. Here you go. MR. NURIK: Thank you. MR. RASCO: And I'm not going to even get into those just yet. FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RASCO: Q Mr. Rothstein, my name is Ray Rasco. I represent Frank Preve. I, again, state for the record that we don't feel that this is sufficient time to fully depose you based on the amount of contact between you and Frank Preve by email, 7,000 emails, and the seriousness of the statements you have been making in your testimony regarding Mr. Preve over the past eight days. I just want to try and, with the limited time that I have, clarify some of the issues that we United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726649 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2357 discussed on Monday when I first spoke with you about Mr. Preve. The first thing that I want to ask is, you said yesterday in your testimony that one of the things that you learned in this massive crime was that you would keep your co-conspirators in the dark as to who the other co-conspirators were. Does that apply to Mr. Preve? A To a certain extent. Q Can you explain that a little bit more? A People on the -- what I'll call "outer circle," people who were doing very specific things, were isolated from other co-conspirators. I'll give you an example. Frank Preve had a very limited purpose for me. I didn't explain to do him what we were doing; I told him what needed to be done. He did it. I did not ever sit down with Frank and tell him Deb knows what's going on. I did not sit down with Frank and tell him David Boden knows what's going on. That's not the way it worked. Okay. With other people, a guy like Mr. Preve, okay, there was need for him to know about certain people; but there was also need, because I knew he was also having conversations with other people and I didn't now -- you United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726650 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2358 know, it's not like I knew this man for two decade, okay, I tried to limit, as best as I could, given all the vagaries of a crime of this size, people's knowledge to what they needed to know. I didn't always succeed. Q Well, would that apply to Mr. Preve? You tried to limit his knowledge; is that fair to say? A On certain issues, yes; and the unique thing about Mr. Preve is, is his knowledge grew over time. You can tell by his emails. If read his email traffic, you know it's clear that there was a point in time where he really didn't know what was going on; and there's a point in time where he is clearly committing fraud after fraud after fraud. Q And that's based on some of the indicators that you discussed with me on Monday, from his email traffic, as well as certain conversations, for example, that you had with Frank Preve? A You'd have to be more specific with me. I can't remember every word I said on Monday. I'd have to sit and read the transcript. Q Okay. Well, let me ask you this, then: The point at which he began to commit fraud, in your words just this morning, when was that? A You'd have to lay all the email traffic out in front of me, and I would be able to give you an estimate United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726651 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2359 of the date. Q Would it go back to December of 2008 or would it be later, if you recall? A By December of 2008, he was involved. Q By December of 2008 he was involved in what way? A I don't recall. Again, I'd have to see all the email traffic. Q Okay. What was his role? You said yesterday that you tried to limit each co-conspirator's role in the crime; can you explain what you limited Frank's role to be? A I'll have to look at all the email traffic. Q Okay. Okay. A He was in command of a major feeder fund. Q Okay. Was he aware of any other co-conspirators? A To a limited extent, yes. Would you like me to explain? Q Yes, please. A Okay. Let's use -- let's use Jack Simony, as an example. Okay. Jack's involvement was simply, whether he knew there was a fraud going on or not, to lie to our upcoming investor. Frank knew we needed Jack to lie. I United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726652 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2360 knew we needed Jack to lie, and Jack knew he had to lie. That's all Jack, to my knowledge, knew. He may have had other conversations with Frank about what was really going on; I don't know. That's what he was limited to. If you read emails about -- between me and Frank about John Harris, you'll see there are multiple emails from Frank telling me to get control of John, that he was creating problems. So Frank knew that John was doing things for me that were illegal. We had discussed it. The extent of it, I didn't get into it anymore than I needed to. The auditor, Tracy Weintraub, is probably one of the best examples. Frank knew that Tracy was in my pocket. Frank, knowing that, prepared phony balance-sheet audit statements for me, instructed me to scribble on them to make them look like they were real -- and this is all documented in email, okay -- and then to forward them to Tracy. There were other times when Tracy sent in questions. Frank would tell me, in email traffic, that we can't answer these questions, that I needed to rein Tracy in, that I needed to get control of him. Those are examples of control of certain people, control of the flow of information. Q Well, just going to John Harris, I don't United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726653 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2361 recall seeing any emails with respect to Mr. Preve asking to you rein John Harris in; but I do recall the email that we discussed on Monday, which is the email where he discussed where there was a $20-million trust balance in -- for Banyan at Gibraltar Bank. Do you recall that discussion? A Who indicated there was a $20-million trust balance? Q Mr. Preve emailed John Harris stating -- asking for a line of credit requests, enclosing documents, and saying that this was based on a $21-million trust account that they had, trust account, or trust proceeds that they had at Gibraltar that -- A I recall something -- I didn't mean to cut you off. Sorry. Q -- that they were seeking a line of credit? A I remember them seeking a line of credit. I remember there being an issue about the trust balance. I remember Frank being aware, through Mr. Harris, that the money was not there. I don't recall the other specifics of it. You'd have to show me the email traffic around that event. Q Do you recall emailing Mr. Preve and asking him not to further seek a line of credit at Gibraltar United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726654 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2362 because John Harris was asking you for settlement documentation? A It's certainly possible. I don't have a specific recollection of it, but it sounds like something I would do. Q Okay. Moving to Tracy Weintraub, there is the packet of emails that I just handed Mr. Nurik. There is one that's dated January 15th, 2009, 11:05 a.m., and it's Bate number FP 112310-0143388/1. Your email to him -- it begins with your email to him stating: Why is Tracy Weintraub asking for banking data from me, re: Banyan, for your audit. I cannot give him anything from my records, nada, zero, zippo. My law firm's records have nothing to do Banyan and audited financials, other than causing a massive explosion that might -- et cetera, et cetera. And that is -- A That's not bad. It says "burn my wee-wee." It's -- actually, it's not only funny, but it's also clear that Frank and I know that: Okay, we want to have as little information floating around as possible because the more information that floats, the more information that is passed between parties, the more likely we will have a detection. Q If Frank knew that, then why does he have over United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726655 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2363 7,000 emails between you and him? I mean, if Frank knew that, there is -- he is -- A Well, I understand what you're asking me. MR. SCHERER: Object to form. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? MR. SCHERER: I just put an objection to form. A You really have to ask your client, because if you recall my earlier testimony over the last eight days, I was amazed at the level of inculpatory things that Frank would write to me on a regular basis, I mean, right down to the end where he said to me, if he doesn't hear from me, we're going to assume we're on our own. Do you expect us to just sit around and wait to be incarcerated, talking about money missing, talking about the fact that he's given me $25 million without any paper; I mean, one illegal activity after another. You are going to have to ask him why there is so much email traffic. Q Well, I mean, why would he put so much into email and seek so much information from you and seek so much information from third parties, if he was in on the fraud? A You would have to ask him that question; I would be guessing. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726656 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2364 Q And if he knew how much money you were making and if he was in on the fraud, why didn't he make so much money? Why didn't he have the same financial results that you had? A I was always -- MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A I was under the impression, and this just my opinion, that he was making plenty of money. BY MR. RASCO: Q Making plenty of money through Banyan, you mean? A Him, George, other deals, yes, he seemed, to me, to be very well financially situated, and he benefited from our crime. Q Okay. Going back to the email that we were just discussing about Tracy Weintraub, the -- Frank responds to that email to January 15th, 2009, at 11:00 a.m.: The only thing he should be asking is for you to confirm our outstanding receivables, just like last year. A Yes. Q And is that what you did? A Do you want me to explain that? Q Yes, I would like you to explain that, please. A Okay. The year before, Berenfeld Spritzer, United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726657 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2365 through Tracy, tried to get a real significant amount of detailed data from us. Frank knew and I knew that that was a big no-no. I went ahead and met with Tracy, explained to him what I needed to explain to him relative to the fact that we're not turning over these documents; that if he wants to be in this game, he needs to go ahead and simply do as little as possible, okay, and get what we needed out; that if he couldn't do the Banyan audit, we would find someone else to do it. He agreed to do it. So when Frank is here saying, "just like last year," okay, he's telling me: Tracy should be adhering to the deal we established previously, which is a simple confirmation, in letter form, just like last year. That's it, nothing more. Q And was that a conversation that you had only with Tracy or that you later indicated to Frank that you had that conversation with Tracy or entered into that deal with Tracy? A I had conversations with both Frank and Tracy about it. Q Separately? A Never together. Q And you indicated that if he did not -- if he United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726658 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2366 sought too much information, he was not going to have the job next year; is that accurate? A I told him that on more than one occasion: my law firm's business, personal business and the Banyan business, yes. Q Okay. And are you suggesting that Frank at any time submitted false financials to Tracy? A He did. Q Can you explain that? A You'd have to show me all the records. Q Are you saying that they audited -- the -- any of Frank's financial information that he sent to Tracy, some of that was fraudulent? A To my knowledge, yes. Q With Frank's awareness? A To my knowledge, yes. Q And what do you base that knowledge on? A You'd have to show me all the financial data, and I could show it to you. I can give you a good example: He knew there wasn't money in a lot of those accounts, and he was saying that the money existed, and he wanted Tracy to say the money existed. Tracy knew the money didn't exist because he was my accountant. Q He knew in January of 2009 there wasn't money United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726659 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2367 in the trust accounts? A Certain accounts, correct. Q Based on those emails that we discussed on Monday where there were certain mistakes? A Emails and many conversations with him. Q Okay. If you turn further, there's another email on that subject that I handed you, or to Mr. Nurik. It's dated January 26, 2009, the subject is "Level 3 verification." It's an emailed, on the bottom, from Michael Szafranski to Ari Glass, indicating that he had met with you, and then indicating that trust account 5104 contained $178,857. Frank responds to that email saying, Mike, is it 187,000, or 17,000,800 or 178 million. Do you see that? A I do. MR. RABIN: If I could just ask, for the record, are you making these exhibits part of the record and identifying MR. RASCO: Yes. I'm sorry. This will be -- we had one just now. What number are we at? MR. RABIN: The next exhibit is 272. MR. RASCO: Thanks. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726660 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2368 (Thereupon, the document was marked as Preve's Exhibit 272 for Identification.) MR. SCHLESIGNER: Sam, just read it out so everybody knows. MR. RABIN: All right. 272 is an email from Preve to Rothstein dated January 15th, 2009, at 11:05 a.m. BY MR. RASCO: Q You see the response from Mr. Szafranski stating, I'm sorry, the numbers aren't thousands of dollars, indicating that the proper balance is 178 million? A And this will be Exhibit 273. Q Yes. A Okay. I do see that, yes, sir. Q Okay. And are you indicating -- are you saying that that was an indicator that Mr. Preve believed that the money was not in the trust accounts? A Without seeing email traffic on either side of this, I can't tell you for certain. I don't know if Mike wrote that. On occasion Mike would write dollars in thousands, dollars in millions. At this point in time, in January 26, 2009, I don't know what Frank was thinking by reading that. I United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726661 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2369 would really have to see the email traffic going before that; and for some reason, the email traffic that would have been directed to me right around this time is not here. So without that, I really can't tell you. Q Okay. But you agree that Frank's financial statements, to the extent that he produced financial statements to you, were accurate, generally? A I can't say one way or the other. Q Did you rely on him for accurate financial information? A No. I relied on him to tell me what we were supposed to have in the accounts, minimum. You'll see he sends me a lot of emails, in fact you handed me one, where he's telling me what the minimum balance is. There is no investment that I've ever heard of -- maybe you have and you can tell me what it was -- where the investor tells the person handling all the money how much money he should have. Generally you ask me what the balance is. I tell what the balance is, and if I'm wrong, you pull your investment. That's not how we worked. Q If there are occasions where the trust balances were not reflecting what Mr. Preve thought they were -- well, first of all, he was telling you what he thought they were based on the deals that you were United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726662 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2370 entering into the bank, correct? A Based on the amount of money he was sending me -- you have got to remember, there came a long period of time where there really was no deal paperwork at all; he was simply relying on that little deal blurb and how much money he was sending me and how much, based upon that little blurb, I was sending him back. So there was a lot of confusion. There was also confusion because he would regularly send me money. I would send him payments, and then he would send me half back. Then he would say, just tell me where you apply. Then he would come back and say, tell me what old deals we're going to apply this to or should I have great example: Should I have Centurion fund this again, or is that just going to create too much of a headache trying to reverify the plaintiff receiving the money? Q Are you referring to a specific email there? A No, not -- that email is in the prior emails • Okay. Not in the ones that I handed you this morning? A No, I didn't see it here. Q Okay. Didn't you indicate to Mr. Preve that -- well, first of all, he was accounting for, on United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726663 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2371 his end, what he thought the deals were that Banyan had entered into, whether they were funding them specifically or somebody else was funding them? A You'd have to ask him what he was doing. He would send me what he thought needed to be in the accounts, and I would instruct Irene to correct it. On many occasions he would actually write directly to Irene and say these balances are off, fix it. Q If there were instances where there were balances that were less than the minimum requirement, do you recall if you indicated to Mr. Preve that that was as a result of you not having -- that was as a result of you putting the money in the wrong Banyan trust account? A I did that once or twice. I remember that. Q And if the balances sometimes weren't accurate, did you indicate to Mr. Preve that could be because you had not paid experts or you had not taken your attorney's fees out? A On certain occasions I did. You have to look at the timing. You have to look at specific emails, look at the timing, and then look at the emails around it to determine the full extent of Mr. Preve's knowledge at the time because at a point in time when he's fully aware of what's going on. There's a lot of Ponzi-speak United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726664 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2372 there. We are talking about "transferring money," for example. We're not transferring money; we're just changing balances. Okay. We talk about me "putting money someplace." "Putting money someplace," is simply putting the number someplace. Q I understand. The email that I just showed you regarding the 178 million, you testified on Monday about an email that indicated that there was a mistake of a billion dollars or about a billion dollars; do you recall that email? A I recall those emails. Q This is not that email, correct? A No. Q The second email in the packet that I just gave you is dated November 18th, 2008, 11:06 a.m. It's from -- the bottom is from Frank to you, and it's subject matter is "stuff." A Okay. Q The third point on that email, it states: Need Commerce balance numbers. And you respond above: See below. And you indicate the responses to the question is right after. Do you agree that those responses behind the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726665 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2373 questions are your writing? A Yes. Q Okay. You indicate that you're going to provide him the balances in Commerce Bank when you get back to the office this afternoon? A Yes, the fake balance numbers, correct. Q And on number four, it says, do I get to sign in, quote, unquote, online like milk toast does? And you respond: Nope, I should not be showing him; but if you want to stand over his shoulder while he and I hold hands -- COURT REPORTER: I need you to slow down: "If you want to stand over his shoulder while he and I hold hands... BY MR. RASCO: Q "-- and sign on, be my guest." Is that your writing there, as well? A Yes. Would you like me to explain that? Q Yes, I would. A Look at the way he writes this: Do I get to sign, and the word "online" is in quotes. The word "online" is in quotes because he knows we're not going online. What Frank was pushing me to do was have United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726666 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2374 Curtis and Bill sets up a fake website for him so that he could use it with investors over at his office. It's my, also, humorous response to him. Q Well, you're indicating, now, that Frank knew that there was a fake website and that he wanted you to create a fake website for him? A I'll answer that with a question: Can you think of any reason why he would put the word "online" in quotes if we were really going online? Q I'm not sure why he wrote "online" in quotes, but I do know that he was seeking verification of trust balances from you, not just through this email, but through hundreds of emails. My question is: Was he aware that this -- that TD Bank/Commerce Bank website was a fake website? A Yes. Q How do you know? A I told him. Q You told him in a conversation or by email? A In a conversation. Q Was anybody else present? A Never. Q Do you know if he ever discussed that fact with Szafranski? A I have no idea one way or the other. I doubt United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726667 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2375 it. Q Okay. And you're indicating that by -- certainly by this time, November of 2008, he would have known that the trust balances either were nonexistent or not -- were certainly inaccurate? A Yes. Q And he knew that from this time, through the end of the Ponzi in October of 2009, right? A Yes. Q Okay. And we talked about an email on Monday relating to a $300-million shortage. It was October 30th or 31st. He was asking you exactly the amount that was in the trust balances. You had already left for Morocco. Do you recall that discussion? A I don't. You'd have to show me the email traffic. THE WITNESS: And just -- I don't mean to interrupt you, but just for your own record-keeping and since there is so many days and so many exhibits, you need to mark these. MR. RASCO: Can we mark them on break and in sequential order? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes. THE WITNESS: It's okay with me. I just United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726668 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2376 don't want you to get documents -- because we have a lot of documents floating around here without stickers. MR. LICHTMAN: Does the record clearly indicate what the document is so it can be matched and there's clarity in the record? MR. RASCO: I specifically stated the dates in the emails and the subject each time I've asked about them. COURT REPORTER: Are you going to be marking more documents? MR. RASCO: Maybe one or two. COURT REPORTER: Okay. Because if it gets too far afield, that's how exhibits get out of order. MR. RASCO: I'm almost done with the exhibits. Can you read where I left off? (Whereupon, the requested portion of the record was read back by the court reporter as recorded above.) MR. RASCO: Okay. Thank you. BY MR. RASCO: Q And there was an email -- and I'm not going to go into it now, but I marked it as an exhibit in the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726669 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2377 composite exhibit binder that I handed you on Monday -- stating that Frank was asking you, you know, what's the -- what's the amount -- he had asked you to authorize Debra to give him an account balances. You said you already did. And then you asked -- and then he said, she has, it she doesn't have the authority. He then asked you, what's the shortage, is it 300 million, something to that effect. And you said, that's not the shortage. That's the amount of money to repay the investors. Do you recall that? A I do. Q Okay. My question: What do you think he's referring to as the shortage? Do you have an idea? A Without seeing the email, I don't want to render a guess. I would be completely guessing. Q Okay. Do you think it might be shortage in funding; in other words, funding from sources like the Von Allmen Group or the hedge funds? A No. I think the shortage -- and I'm speculating, but I think the shortage he's referring to is, is how much money do we need to put into the trust accounts so that we could pay out everything we were supposed to pay out, had this all been real. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726670 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2378 Q Did you often indicate -- A But I'm guessing. Q Okay. MR. NURIK: Excuse me, Counsel. If you have it there, why don't you show it to him? MR. RASCO: I -- I'm happy to show it, but give me a second. I'm going from memory on this. BY MR. RASCO: Q I'm sorry, I have don't have it in front of me. I don't want to take anymore time, but I'm just asking you, specifically: If you had used the word "shortage" in the past, during the Bar issue, indicating that the hedge funds weren't funding at the same levels that they were before? A I actually -- and I would have to see the email traffic; but I actually don't recall using the word "shortage" to describe money that hadn't been funded by the hedge funds. Normally I would just say "they haven't funded." I wouldn't say there's a shortage in funding. "Shortage," the way Frank is writing it to me is: what is the shortage in the accounts, how much have you stolen, what's missing. But, again, I'm just guessing. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726671 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2379 Q Okay. You used, on various occasions, with Frank and other parties, starting with the April 2009 Bar issue, the fact that the hedge funds weren't funding at previous levels -- A Correct. Q -- you used that as an excuse to not pay out to Banyan or to other investors; is that fair? A Correct. Q Okay. And you used that again with the Von Allmen group and Barry Bekkedam's group? A I don't recall that. You'd have to show me that email traffic. Q Okay. I will show you this email. This is the Composite Exhibit 206, which I marked on Monday. A All right. Are you talking about the October 31st, 2009, email Q Yes. A -- from me to George? Q Correct, from you to George. A Yes. We have talked about this extensively. Q We have. I have a few more questions about it. You indicated that email was a false exculpation of Frank, not of George, right? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726672 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2380 A Well, I've testified over and over that I'm not sure what George knew. As I sit here today, I still don't know what he knew. So -- Q Well, you did indicate. A Hang on. It would clearly be an exculpation of Frank -- Q It -- A -- and George, if he needed it. Q Okay. It would clearly be a false exculpation? A Yes, a false exculpation. Q Okay. You testified on Monday the latter part of the time about being a liar, thief and scum bag; that was true, in your mind at the time? A Yes. Q Okay. And the part about you either going to jail or dying, that was true or accurate in your mind at the time, as well, right? A Yes. Q Okay. And the -- that email was written, if you recall, in response to an email or various emails from George Levin trying to, quote, unquote, bail you out, trying to help you resolve the issues that you were in, without him fully understanding what was going on? A In part, yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726673 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2381 Q And so the part about him asking you -- about you telling him, don't try to bail me out of this, that was accurate in your mind, as well, wasn't it? You already knew that it would be impossible for him to bail you? A I don't how what was possible or not possible. You'd have to define "bail" me out. If he could get access to a lot of money, he could bail out the financial part; but he certainly wasn't going to bail me out of the fact that I had committed a giant crime. Q So the only part of that email that is untrue is the part about the exculpation; you and George did nothing wrong? A The only part in here that I know for certain that is false is: Frank did nothing wrong. That is false. It is all together possible that to a great extent, George did, in fact, do nothing wrong. Q You've testified that this was the first time in your life that -- or at least the several past years, that you were coming clean, that you were being honest with yourself; is that fair, in this time period? A At this moment? I don't think at this moment I was coming clean with myself. I think I was trying United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726674 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2382 to. Until I made the decision to step foot on a plane and leave a non-extradition country, knowing that I was coming back to go to prison, I don't think until I made that ultimate decision that I had fully reconciled with myself that it was time to completely change the person that I am, to change my life and to do the right thing. Q And this was the only email that you recall that you were falsely exculpating Frank; is that right? A I don't recall. You'd have to show me the email traffic. I have sent so many emails, I need to see the traffic to tell you one way or the other. Q Did you -- do you recall falsely exculpating anybody else? A We looked at emails the other day. I don't want to speculate when we have definitive email traffic to establish one way or the other. So I would like to see the emails and answer based upon emails, instead of guessing. Q Just your independent recollection, anybody else that you were trying to falsely exonerate? A I don't recall. I believe there were, but the names are escaping me right at this moment. Q Okay. And to your recollection now, as you United Reporting. Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726675 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2383 sit here, was there anything else that you may have done to falsely exculpate Frank or anybody else? A Oh, wait. I tried -- I falsely exculpated Stu. Q Was that through email? A I'm -- yes, I think there was -- there was an email. Q Okay. A I think -- again, it makes no sense to me to try to have me guess when we have email traffic that establishes definitively one way or the other. Q I'm only asking you because I haven't seen any email traffic that establishes you sending any other emails that would falsely exculpate anybody else. A On, no, I did. Q Okay. And in doing so, when you did do so, do you recall if it was a simple statement like this one with respect to Frank, or was it more detailed? A I would be guessing. Q Okay. And you were aware, by that time, that there were thousands of emails between you and Mr. Preve that indicated that he may have known something was amiss? A You're asking me my opinion? Q Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726676 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2384 A At that point in time I believed that there were thousands of emails proving clearly that Frank was involved in a major fraud. Q Then why would you think that such a simple statement would be any help to Frank? A Fortunately for you, you've never had to be in a situation where your mind is as mine was. When a multi-billion-dollar Ponzi scheme is collapsing around you,you're picturing destroying your family and all the people that you love. And coming back to potentially dying in prison. The emotional and actually physical stress that your body goes through at the time is not something that I can describe in words. Why I was doing exactly what I was doing in those final days, I would have to sit and really read all these emails again, carefully. I was trying to do something good -- Q Okay. A -- that I perceived as good. The truth is, now, as I sit here today, after having made the decision to come clean and admit everything I've done wrong, I don't think that trying to falsely exculpate those people was the right thing. What I should have done was picked up the phone called them, called Mr. Preve and the others that United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab4911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726677 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2385 I knew was involved and said, I'm doing the right thing. You need to do the right thing. Turn yourself in. Let's tell everybody what we did. Let's do the right thing. That's what I should have done. Q Do you remember that both Frank and George were calling you and texting you or emailing you repeatedly? A Yes. Yes. Q And you indicated on Monday that you did not want to speak with them? A Correct. Q And why was it that you didn't want to speak with them? A I was very emotionally attached to them. I was very emotional at the time, okay, and I did not want to speak to them. I -- I just -- I couldn't bring myself to do it. I spoke to very limited people while I was away. Q Are you suggesting that Frank in any way created fake documents in the Ponzi scheme? A Yes. Q Can you explain that? A You'd have to show me the documents. I could tell you then whether they were fake or not. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726678 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2386 Q Can you give me a time frame? A From -- I would be guessing. Throughout 2009 we created false documents together. Q You actually sat with Mr. Preve to create false documents together? A No. He created fake things and sent them to me, and I created fake things and sent them to him. Sometimes we were on the phone together. Q Do you mean agreements or trust balances? A Trust balances is a good example, but to me that's not creating it, you know. Again, you'd have to define the word "created" for me. If I create the document through Debra or Irene and then I send it to him and he doesn't like the balances and he wants me to change them to a different, false number, by your definition, is that him creating the document? He's giving me false input to help me create the false document, which is what he did; but you've got to be more precise with me. Q Okay. Well, just to be specific, are you talking about only deal documents here? We're not talking about anything outside of the deals that you were entering into with Banyan? A Well, sure. Sure I am, because Frank helped United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726679 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2387 me create, at length, fake opinion letters that I then had other lawyers put on their letterhead. People who knew nothing, like Ken Padowitz knew nothing about this type of law, knows nothing about this type of business; he is a criminal defense lawyer. He took a fake opinion letter that we put together -- me, Boden, Preve. We put all this crazy stuff in there, okay, that we needed to perpetrate this scheme and to keep it going and to get people to invest more dollars in the fraud. And then, he knows -- he knows Ken Padowitz is a criminal defense lawyer. I put this thing on -- had Padowitz put it on his letterhead, have Padowitz sign it and then we take it and I give it to Frank. And Frank starts handing it out, and I handed it out. Q So Frank handed it out, but in addition to handing it out, you're saying he actually helped you create that document? A Absolutely. Yes. Q How did he do so? A He gave me language that went in there. I -- I wasn't an expert in those areas. I had people who knew banking, people who knew that area of the corporate finance, helping me prepare that letter. Q What was the letter opining on? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726680 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2388 A You'd have to show me the letter. It was on the legal nature of the settlement structure. It was that he had reviewed all these documents, which he hadn't. It was a fake opinion letter. All of the people that gave input into that letter, including Mr. Preve, had never reviewed anything in order to come to the, quote, unquote, legal conclusions that the strategy was legal. Q Did he provide input verbally or in writing? A I don't recall whether he did some in writing. You'd have to take a look through the email traffic, but definitely verbally and definitely on paper in some format. Q Whether it was handwritten or by email or on the document itself, you're not clear? A There were times when Frank and I would sit down and scribble on documents that we had, notes, that type of thing. We were sitting together. If I was sitting in the office and we were doing something nefarious, I don't think he needed to send me an email to confirm what we just discussed. We could do it on paper there; but, again, I would need to see the documents. Q Any other documents, outside of just the settlement funding, that Frank would have been involved United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726681 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2389 in falsely creating? A I just said the opinion letters. Q Just the opinion, I'm asking beyond the opinion letters. A I have to see all the documents, and then I could tell you one by one whether he had input into it. Q Were you aware that Banyan -- A Wait a second. He helped put -- with Tracy, he helped put together that audit letter. He had direct input into the contents of the audit letter. As a matter of fact, if you look at the email traffic, one of the things that is completely off the charts with regard to a, quote, unquote, independent audit of books and records, is that Tracy, pursuant to my request, forwarded a copy -- provided a copy of the audit letter to Frank Preve for his comments before completing it, which is a big no-no as I understand it in the financial audit world. Q But what did Frank do that was wrong, as far as providing Tracy comments? A He had added false information, corrected information that would have led potential investors to believe that there was a fraud, cleaned it up so that we wouldn't get in trouble and gave it back to Tracy. Tracy then corrected the document and put it in final United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726682 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2390 form. Q Can you point to specifically anything that he added that was false? A Sure. Show me the letter. Q I don't have it with me today. I'll save that for another day. Are you aware that Banyan was obtaining opinion letters from legal -- from their own legal counsel? A Sure. I helped them formulate certain information that they provided that was false to Greenspoon Marder so that they could get them to write an opinion letter. Q And you're aware they also obtained opinion letters from Hutchinson Steffen? A I remember at least one or two other firms that they went to, but you have got to remember something: Look at those opinion letters. They, for starters, contain nothing about the payment irregularities that were going on. So just from that small spot of illegality, okay, he was providing false information, because there was all kinds of problems with trust balances not being right and payments being missed and payments being late and documents not being prepared; and then we get these United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726683 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2391 audit letters and opinion letters saying everything is just hunky-dory, everything is beautiful, there is no problems, everything is paid on time, everything is properly papered. That's all based upon false information. Q You indicated that -- on Monday that one of the indicators that you knew Frank was aware of the fraud was the fact that he was using money from the deals to pay certain bills of Levin's? A Yes. Q You're not aware that he was using it for his own purposes, other than that? A I don't know one way or the other what he was doing. I do not know. I just know that he was taking money that was supposed to be investor money and paying Levin's personal bills with it. As a matter of fact, I think there is an email that we looked at yesterday where he says he needs $10 million out of all the money we have to pay George's personal bills. Q After 2009, essentially, the hedge funds were cut off and Banyan was cut off getting the payments that they were supposed to receive, at least the scheduled payments they were supposed to receive, right? A April of '09? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726684 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2392 Q Yes. A Yes. Q And you were indicated that the trust accounts were blocked, right? A Yes. Q Did you tell Frank that because that was occurring and because certain bills were due for Banyan and the Levins, that you were going to bring your own money from New York and pay them out of that money? Yes. I told him I would borrow the money or bring my own money in, which should have been a giant red flag; but money was money to us at that point in time. MR. RASCO: Okay. I'm going to reserve some time and take a break, but I'm done for now. MR. SCHLESIGNER: Can we make sure the record is clear when he mentioned "Frank," it's not Mr. Spinosa? THE WITNESS: On, no, it's not Mr. Spinosa. All the times during the questioning by Mr. Preve's counsel of me, every time I said "Frank," it was Frank Preve. MR. SCHLESIGNER: Thank you. MR. NURIK: And also for the record, the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726685 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2393 only exhibit that we have marked is 272. So we have no identification for any of those other emails. MR. RASCO: Let me -- MR. NURIK: Excuse me. We don't know what his answers related to. MR. RASCO: Well, I specifically stated what the dates and subjects were of each of the emails. I can mark them in -- they're all in chronological order. (Thereupon, documents were marked as Preve's Exhibits 273 and 274, respectively, for identification.) DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Scott Rothstein, you sure fooled a lot of people, didn't you? A Yes. Q You conned lawyers, right? A Yes. Q Greenspoon Warder, correct? A Well, that con was actually by Mr. Preve, with my assistance. Q Clifford Chance? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726686 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2394 A Yes. Q Morgan Lewis? A Yes. Q In fact, no firm that did a due diligence investigation of you, discovered what you were up to and advised their clients not to invest in you? A I would be guessing as to what they advised their client. Q Didn't you say on December 12th, in the afternoon session, that no firm that did due diligence, as far as you knew, discovered what you were up to and advised the client not to invest in you? A That's the key to your question: As far as I knew, yes. Q You conned innocent lawyers at your firm who didn't know what you were up to? A I did. Q You conned innocent investors, didn't you? A Some, yes, I did. Q You conned politicians, as well, right? MR. LAVECCHIO: You can answer the question without specifics. A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You fooled Senator John McCain? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726687 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2395 A Yes. Q You fooled United States Senator Mel Martinez? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You fooled United States Senator Joe Lieberman? A Yes. Q You fooled Florida Governor Charlie Crist? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You fooled California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger? A Yes. Q You fooled presidential candidate Sarah Palin? A Yes. Q You fooled the president, George W. Bush? A Yes. Q You conned the Florida Bar, didn't you? A No, I never got them involved in anything. I utilized the name of the Florida Bar to further my fraud. Q You were on the Florida Bar Grievance Committee, weren't you? A Oh, you mean I fooled them into thinking I was an ethical lawyer? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726688 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2396 Q Well, tell me: Were you on the Florida Bar Grievance Committee? A I certainly was. We discussed that. Q And what were you supposed to be doing on that committee? A Hearing grievances. Q And what does that mean for the jury? Explain what you were supposed to be doing on that committee. A Judging the ethics of other lawyers. Q You conned the Broward Judicial Nominating Commission, didn't you? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Did you corrupt that process, sir? MR. LAVECCHIO: Without specifics. A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Did people pay you to get on the bench? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q What were you supposed to be doing on that commission, Scott Rothstein? A Vetting candidates for the 4th District Court of Appeal to send to the government. Q Who appointed you to that position? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726689 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2397 A The governor, then-governor, Charlie Crist. Q You conned your own friends, didn't you? A Yes. Q You had a close circle of friends that you often socialized with, right? A Yes, ma'am. Q Some of them knew you were a criminal? A Some did, yes, sir -- yes, yes, ma'am. Q Some of them didn't? A Some didn't, many didn't. Q You conned "your own girl Friday," didn't you? A "Girl Friday," who? Q How do you describe Debra Villegas? A One of my closest friends and confidantes. Q And an employee? A Yes, ma'am. Q Who worked right alongside you? A Yes, ma'am. Q Who learned that you were a criminal? A Yes, ma'am. Q Who participated in your criminal conduct with you? A Yes, ma'am. Q Who you could ask to do just about anything and she would, for you? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726690 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2398 A Yes, ma'am. Q You conned your own best friend, didn't you? A To some extent. Q You convinced Ted Morse that you had Judge Seltzer in your pocket? A That's true. Q And by the way, when you conned Ted Morse, you were a conning a con, weren't you? ALL PRESENT: Object. A If you mean to say that Ted knew I was committing crimes and participated in some of those crimes, that's correct; and that I also conned him as to certain things, that's correct. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You conned the people closest to you in the world? A That's true. I hurt a lot of very innocent, good, decent people. Q You conned your own mother? A I certainly did. I hurt my family terribly. Q She worked at the firm with you, didn't she? A Yes, from time to time my mom worked there. My dad worked there, my sister. Q And she had no idea what her son had become? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726691 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2399 A No, she didn't. Q You conned your wife? A I certainly did. I hurt a very good person a lot. Q You did the things you did and then crawled into bed with that woman? A That's correct. Q At your sentencing you tried to con the judge, didn't you? A Absolutely not. Q Sir, you wrote him a 12-page letter, typewritten, right? A I hand wrote it and then someone else typed it, yes, ma'am. Q It started off talking about the tough financial times you had growing up, right? A You have to show me the letter, ma'am. I know that I talked about difficult financial times, that kind of thing, yes, ma'am. Q It ended talking about how, very, very sorry you were for all of your crimes? A Yes, ma'am. I am. That's why I turned myself in. Q That letter didn't work, did it, Mr. Rothstein? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726692 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2400 A It wasn't meant to work. It was meant to be an honest appraisal of myself and my criminality to the judge. Q What sentence did your lawyer ask the judge to impose on you, sir? A Forty years. Q What sentence -- A I'm sorry, no, that was the government asked for 40 years; my lawyer asked for 30. Q And what sentence did the judge impose on you? A Fifty years. Q You're good at the con, aren't you? A I was, yes. Q You're not anymore? A No, ma'am. Q Why don't we let the jury be the judge of that. ALL PRESENT: Object to form. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Let's talk about the psychological tools that you used to fool people, to con them. First, you're a good salesman, right? A I was. Q You know how to get a sense from people before you do business with them? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726693 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2401 A That is one of the tools I used to operate, yes, ma'am. Q Some people you wouldn't do business with because you sensed you couldn't trust them? A That's correct. Q You know how to create a perception of power? A That's correct. Q And you know that the perception of power yields actual power? A It does. Q You know how to convince people that you're legit, right? A That's one of the tools I used, yes, ma'am. Q You convinced people that you were legitimate by associating with politicians, right? A I convinced people that I was legitimate by associating with certain legitimate politicians and by corrupting and engaging in corruption with some corrupt politicians. Q You knew how to convince people that you were legit by associating with law enforcement? A I utilized law enforcement to convince people I was legitimate both by associating with legitimate law enforcement and by engaging in corruption with corrupt law enforcement. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726694 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2402 Q You knew how to convince people you were legitimate by associating with judges? A I convinced people I was legitimate by associating with good and decent legitimate members of the judiciary, and I convinced people I was legitimate by engaging in corruption with corrupt members of the judiciary. Q You knew it was crucial to the success of your criminal scheme to keep an air of legitimacy around you? A Yes, ma'am. Q And you worked hard to make people feel secure in their relationship with you, right? A Yes, ma'am. Q You used the trappings of wealth to give people the impression of your success? A I did. Q And you worked to convince people that there would be real returns, real returns on their investments? A Certain people, yes, ma'am. Q You made large and very public donations to worthy causes, right? A I did. Q And you pretended to be devout in your religion? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726695 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2403 A I am not going to justify that comment with a response. Q In 2000 -- A I was -- excuse me. Q Go ahead. A Excuse me. Excuse me. MR. NURIK: Hold on. We're not going it to allow any questions concerning his religious beliefs, period. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You made public statements regarding your religiosity, haven't you? A My religion has nothing to do with the fact that I was a very bad person. Q You manipulated people, didn't you? A I did. Q You're good at manipulating them, aren't you? A I was. Q You were? A Yes. I don't need to do that anymore. When you tell the truth, it's very, very simple. Q You're the tiger who changed his stripes? ALL PRESENT: Objection to form. A If you're asking me if I am a good example of a changed person and how much you can change, the answer United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726696 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2404 is absolutely yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q On a scale of one to ten, you're a ten at manipulating people? A I was. I have no need manipulate anyone anymore. When you're telling the truth, you don't need to worry about manipulating people. Q You've said that you can spend time with someone and get a feel for what they might be susceptible to? A That's something that I was capable of doing, yes, ma'am. Q And that you could spend time with someone and get a feel for how malleable a person he or she is? A That was something I was capable of doing as well, yes, ma'am. Q You're not capable of getting that sense now? A No, I'm not. Q That -- A I don't care. Q You lost your sense to -- to see if somebody is susceptible to BS? A No. I shut it down. I decided it was no longer something that I wanted to be. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726697 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2405 Do you not believe that people can change? Q You are able to turn off like a switch your ability to determine after meeting with a person how malleable they are? A I have no need to do it anymore. When you're telling the truth, you don't need to do any of those things. Q If you had a need, could you do it, sir? A My body, my psyche, my mind, my beliefs would never allow me to do that again. Ever. That's why I came back and turned myself in knowing I was going to prison. Q That's your pitch? ALL PRESENT: Objection. Form. A That's the truth. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q During the days of your con, when people questioned you about these deals, you would give them whatever information you thought you needed to give them? A Depending upon whether they were involved in the crime or not. Q All right. Sometimes you lied to them? A Sometimes I lied to them and sometimes I told them the truth. It just depended upon whether they were United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726698 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2406 involved in the crime or not. Q Sometimes you told them half-truths? A It's the same answer. Depending upon what level involvement they had in the crime. Q To some people, you gave as little information as possible? A Depending upon their level of involvement in the crime. Q And to other folks, you exaggerated? A Again, it's the same answer. It depended upon the level of the individual's involvement in the fraud. Q Sometimes you played the attorney-client confidentiality card? A Yes, my co-conspirators and I used that regularly to create a transparency block during the course of the fraud. Q And you played the confidential settlement card? A The same answer. Q Meaning yes? A No. Meaning that my co-conspirators and I used the confidentiality -- all of those things to create a transparency block so people would not be able to detect the fact that we were committing a crime. Q Sometimes when you were pressed, you played United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726699 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2407 offense in defense, right? A I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. Q Well, for example, when Ed and Carol Morse would start pressing you and asking too many questions, wasn't it the case that you would respond with what you testified on December 12th was, quote/unquote, the standard, where you rant about: How dare you, you've embarrassed me, I'm making you money, I've done everything right. A Now I understand. Yes. What I would do is, when someone was pushing me on a matter of illegality, if the person was -- if it suited my needs, I would play their emotions to try to get them to stop. Q And you also referred to this technique of yours as using a person's pressure point, right? A Yes. Q Of course, you agreed you don't need to apply pressure to people who are criminals, right? A That's right. Sometimes -- well, that's not true. Sometimes when you have someone who is a -- well, let me give specific examples. When I had people that were co-conspirators of my crime that I needed them to do something outside of the criminality they were currently involved in, I might use pressure points or United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726700 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2408 inducements. I did that frequently with the bankers. It just depended upon what I required for the crime at the time. Some people needed more inducement, some people needed less. Q So, for example, when the innocent fund investors started asking too many questions about payments being late, you cooked up a story about having a Florida Bar grievance? A Correct. MR. SCHERER: Objection to form. BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q You used law enforcement to throw people off, you said? A I used legitimate law enforcement to do legitimate things and I used corrupt law enforcement to do corrupt things. Q You've rewarded the people who were in on your scheme, didn't you? A Very well. Q You rewarded them with houses, right? Right? A Yes. Q Cars? A Yes. Q Trips? A Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726701 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2409 Q Women? A Yes. Q Cigars? A Yes. Q Concerts? A Yes. Q Sporting events? A Yes. Q You emailed them a lot? A Some I emailed a lot. Some I emailed a little. Q You gave them nicknames? A Both, people that were involved in the crime and not involved in the crime. Everyone in my world had nicknames. Q And you also gave money and gifts to people who were not in on your schemes? A That's correct. Q You told folks the gospel according Scott? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A I don't know what -- I'm sorry, I don't know what that means, the gospel according Scott. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q On December 14th, in the afternoon session, page 886 of the transcript, you didn't testify that you United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726702 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2410 told people, quote/unquote, the gospel according Scott? MR. NURIK: Actually, what was the question before that answer? BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q My question is -- MR. NURIK: No. What was the question before? Why don't you say -- ask him what his answer was in response to a particular question so we can identify the record. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Have you ever said that, sir? A My recollection is, is I was joking around with some people in here when I said "the gospel according to Scott." You'd have to give me the context of it so it's not taken out of context. Q You used that phrase, sir? A Yes. Q On the record? A Yes. Q You used other tools, tangible tools to ply your trade too, didn't you? A I don't understand the question. Q You masterminded the use of phony lawsuits? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726703 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2411 A I masterminded -- the way you're asking it, yes, I utilized phony lawsuits to continue to perpetrate the fraud. Q Phony court orders? A Yes, ma'am. Q Phony settlement agreements? A Yes, ma'am. Q Phony promissory notes? A Yes, ma'am. Q Forged emails? A Yes, ma'am. Q Phony case file documents? A Yes, ma'am. Q Phony flight manifests? A No, we didn't phony up flight manifests. We used -- Q You didn't phony up a flight manifest where you added Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew and young girls' names to a Jeffrey Epstein flight manifest for purposes of showing perspective investors how the settlement system worked and why important people might want confidentiality in exchange for large sums of money to be paid to the plaintiff? A My best recollection is, is we used -- I think I testified to this yesterday or the day before -- we United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726704 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2412 used real flight manifests during that meeting with the -- Mr. Scherer's clients. And I told them about fake flight manifests. I don't recall that we created one. If you have one, you can show it to me, that would refresh my recollection, but I actually don't recall that being a document that I created. Q Phony bank websites? A Yes. Q Phony bank statements? A Yes. Screen shots. Q Phony opinion letters? A Yes. Q Phony audit letters? A Yes. Q Fake legal bills? A Yes. Q Phony court case bonds? A Yes. Q Fake law enforcement investigations? A Yes. Q Phony attorney's fees statements? A Yes. Q Fictitious loans? A Yes. Q And, of course, being a successful con means United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726705 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2413 you have to be a pretty good actor, right? A I was. Q Let's talk about you and your co-conspirators' acting skills. You orchestrated phony telephonic court hearings, didn't you? A I did. Q Now, a real telephonic court hearing is where a judge allows the participants to participate by telephone, right? A Yes. Q But in your phony telephonic hearings, you would have your firm's lawyers or other lawyers fake like they were the participants in a real hearing, right? A I had Scott Goldstein pretend to be Judge Marra. Q And who, for example, would be attending a fake hearing with a fake Judge Marra? A In this case, one of my co-conspirators, Ted Morse, and his father, who was an innocent, Edward Morse. Q And what part did you play? A The lawyer. Q Other times you used people to play the part United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726706 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2414 of plaintiffs, right? A That's correct. Q Steve Caputi played the plaintiff? A Steve Caputi played the plaintiff, and one of the firm's secretaries played another plaintiff. Q I assume you played the part of an honest attorney? A Yes, ma'am. Q You were acting, of course? A I was. Q Caputi also played the part of a reporter to harass one of your victims, right? A He did. Q Another time Caputi played the banker? A Several times, yes, ma'am. Q And he had to dress up for that part? A I asked him to put on a shirt and tie because he usually dressed in jeans and a t-shirt. Q And you played the honest attorney again? A I did. Q Another time you had Caputi pretend to be the owner of 800 numbers that had sent your firm lots of business? A I did. Q And you had a woman in your office play the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726707 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2415 part of a Florida Bar official, right? A I did. Q You had other lawyers play the part of a case and client referral sources, right? A Yes. Q And you would participate -- A A series of lawyers. Q And you would participate in these little scenarios with them? A You mean the fake due diligence with the lawyers? Q Yes. A Yes. I took them there. Q So you were acting quite a bit during this time? A Myself and my co-conspirators, yes, ma'am. Q And then there were the shows, what you call "the shows," right? A Yes, ma'am. Q Where everybody had a role? A Yes, ma'am. Q And you had lines? A It was a lot of ad lib but, yes, some specific things that needed to be said and done, yes, ma'am. Q These shows were coordinated? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726708 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2416 A Yes, ma'am. Q And thought out? A Correct. Q You were a master of fraud, weren't you, Mr. Rothstein? A Unfortunately, I was very good at what I was doing, yes, ma'am. Q By the way, before you got caught up in all of this, had you read up on con-artists and the tricks of their trade? A I'm certain that somewhere along the line I had read about cons but if you're asking me if I did research for the role, no, I did not. Q It came naturally? A It's not that it came naturally. It's just I developed, unfortunately, an ability to fool people. That's what I was doing. That's what all my co-conspirators were doing. That's what a fraud is based upon. Q Judge Cohn, after sentencing, described your fraud. Do you remember that? A I certainly do. Q I'm going to read you some of the things Judge Cohn said and ask you if the judge was right. You understand? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726709 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2417 A I can tell you right now he was right on everything he said. Every single word that he said he was 100 percent correct. Q Judge Cohn said that your case was about selling fake financial products. True? A Yes. Q He said, "The marketing, however, was anything but simple. It was sophisticated, rivaling that of Madison Avenue's advertising elite." A Correct. Q "It was all about image, wealth, power, and influence." A Correct. Q WPI. Is that all true? A I told you two questions ago that every single thing that Judge Cohn said about me and my crimes was 100 percent correct. Q Judge Cohn, "The marketing component of the fraud focused on attracting investors with deep pockets." Is that what you did? A Yes, ma'am. That's -- I just testified to that now three questions ago. Q You displayed all the trappings of success: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726710 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2418 The multi-million dollar homes, the expensive cars, and boats, restaurants and jewelry and a 70-lawyer law firm that appeared to be thriving? A Yes, ma'am. Q You maintained political connections stretching from the Broward Sheriff's office on one end of Broward Boulevard, all the way down to the Fort Lauderdale Police Department on the other end of Broward Boulevard, correct? A Yes, and all the way out to Plantation. Q To the governor's mansion in Tallahassee and all the way to the United States Congress in Washington and down Pennsylvania Avenue to the White House? A I did. Q "The local society page," Judge Cohn, "was constantly adorned with photographs of you and your wife arm-in-arm with sports celebrities, politicians, community leaders, and socialites." Is that right? A That's correct. Q The political contributions, which were funneled through your law firm's attorneys, their wife's and other employees, placed the Rothstein brand in much demand? A That's correct. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726711 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2419 Q The philanthropy, which included donations to hospitals, religious and charitable organizations endeared you as one of Broward County's most prolific benefactors? A That's correct. Q And the police security details, the dinners with law enforcement, and the trips to sporting events with BSO brass created an appearance of legitimacy? A That's correct. Q Judge Cohn, "But we now know it was all a fraud." A That's correct. Q Let's talk about your various schemes and crimes. Besides the Ponzi scheme, you and Albert Peters embezzled from his employer, Silversea, right? A Correct. Q How much in total did you-all embezzle? A I don't know. I don't recall. Q More than 10 million? A I don't recall. Q More than ten bucks? A Yes. Q You and Ted Morse embezzled from Morse Operations, didn't you? A We did. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726712 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2420 Q How much? A In excess of $59 million. Q You laundered money through your law firm? A I did. Q You laundered money for Albert Peters? A I did. Q You laundered money for Ted Morse? A I did. Q You laundered money for the mob? A I did. Q You committed tax fraud? A I committed the wrong kind of tax fraud. I increased my taxes instead of decreasing it. I don't know what you actually call that. It's tax evasion one way. I guess I was tax invasion. Q You lied under penalty of perjury under tax forms, right? A Yes, I did. Q Friends -- your friends called you Robin Hood? A Certain of them, yes. Q And Robin Hood usually means a steal -- stealing from the rich to give to the poor, right? A That's normally what it means. I was stealing from the rich to give to the richer. Q Including yourself? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726713 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2421 A Yes. Q And back to the tax fraud, your participation in tax fraud was not necessarily only, if at all, for your benefit but it was also for other folks' benefits, right? A Right. Q You helped other people commit tax fraud, right? A Yes. My tax fraud was unique to me. I helped other people avoid taxes. Q Evade them? A Avoid, evade, not pay. Q You engaged in public corruption with politicians? A Yes. Q You engage in public corruption with law enforcement? A Yes. Q You participated in the purchase of political positions? A Yes. Q You bribed judges? A Yes. Q You were involved in the -- ALL PRESENT: Object. Form. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726714 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2422 BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q -- manipulation, you say, of the judicial -- THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You were involved in the manipulation of the judiciary? A Yes. Q You engaged in mob crime? A I don't know what you mean. MR. LAVECCHIO: Could I have a point of clarification by what you mean by "mob crimes"? BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q Sure. You've already said you laundered money for the mob, right? A Yes. Q Were you involved in extortion? MR. SCHERER: I'm sorry. Would you repeat that? I didn't hear the question. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Were you involved in extortion? MR. SCHERER: Thank you. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: You're welcome. MR. LAVECCHIO: As a general crime? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726715 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2423 A I was involved in extortion as a general crime, yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Did you extort anybody? You're pausing, Mr. Rothstein. I'm not going to ask you who if Mr. Lavecchio doesn't want me to know that. MR. NURIK: Let -- hold on. Hold on. MR. SCHERER: Objection to form. MR. NURIK: Let the record reflect that the reason he's pausing is because there is the anticipation of a possible objection based on law enforcement privilege, so he's giving the government the opportunity to decide whether or not to interpose that objection. No other reason. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: So noted. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And I know that, which is what I meant to suggest to you when I said I'm not going to ask you who you extorted, if Mr. Lavecchio has an objection to that question. But I'm asking you, not who you extorted, but just admit that you did. A I'm waiting to make sure there's no -- United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726716 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2424 Q Okay. A -- objection. MR. LAVECCHIO: My objection is just point of clarification. You said he participated in extortion. As that is somehow differentiated from extorting people, I don't understand and I don't think he understands it. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Did you threaten somebody that if they didn't give you money, you would do something? THE WITNESS: Go ahead? MR. LAVECCHIO: Yes. A Through other people, yes. BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q Did you order the people who did it to do it? A Did I order them? Q Did you ask them nicely? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form. A The way that particular -- without getting into any details, the people that I was involved with were happy to do these things, and they did them. I didn't need to order anyone to do anything. I asked. I paid. They did. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726717 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2425 BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And the "did" that they did, was it in exchange for the money with the threat for physical violence or the threat that some crime would be exposed, or what? MR. LAVECCHIO: That's where I have to object. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You were involved in making physical threats, though, were you not? MR. LAVECCHIO: Again, point of clarification, he's previously testified that he was involved in acts that concerned certain acts of violence, but as to his personally participating in those, you can ask that. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q What did you do to involve yourself in activities including the making of physical threats? MR. LAVECCHIO: I have to object. BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q Did you threaten anybody with physical harm? MR. LAVECCHIO: Personally? THE WITNESS: Personally? BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Yeah. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726718 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2426 A I may have said I was going to beat the crap out of someone when they aggravated me but that's not related to the criminality. That's like someone sitting in a bar saying, I would like to sleep with your wife, and me saying, I'll beat the crap out of you if you go near her. It's not the same thing. Q Right. And certainly -- A The criminality that I was involved in was through other people. I did not actually get involved in that. Q Sir, as you can understand, I'm really not interested in your bar banter. ALL PRESENT: Objection to form. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q I'm asking you -- MR. SCHERER: Mary, we can't hear you. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Did you ever threaten to break anybody's kneecaps, for example? A In conversations with certain people that I was committing crimes with, there was discussion of physical violence. Q What type of violence? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726719 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2427 BY MS. SPEAKER?: Q How many contacts in the mob did you have? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Let me ask you about Melissa Lewis. Melissa Lewis was a lawyer in your firm, right? A Yes, ma'am. Q And at some point you were sleeping with her? A When she was a student of mine, yes. Q She was Debra Villegas' best friend, right? A She was. Q The same Debra Villegas that would do just about anything for you if you asked her? A Yes. We already discussed that. Q The same Debra Villegas that knew about your crimes or some of them and who participated in them with you? A That's correct. Q At some point Debra Villegas' best friend and then your former lover was murdered? A That's correct. She was. Q She was murdered because she knew too much, right? A Excuse me? Are you attempting to insinuate that I had something to do with that poor girl's death? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726720 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2428 Have you lost your mind? Q You would deny that? A I would deny it? You're disgusting. Everyone knows that I wasn't involved in it. That's disgusting. Q How about Julie Timmerman? A No. No. That is disgusting. Okay. I was a criminal involved in white-collar crime, involved in fraud and the like, involved with the mob and corrupt politicians and corrupt law enforcement. I'm paying for that. Melissa Lewis was a good person. She didn't know too much. She was killed by a psychopath. And you're disgusting for doing that. Q You gave Debra Villegas a house, right? A Why drag her family through that? They're going to have to read this, for your purposes, to defend John Harris, who's guilty. Q You gave Debra Villegas a house -- A You should be ashamed. Q -- right? THE WITNESS: I want five minutes. You should be ashamed of yourself. You think I should be in jail. You should be ashamed. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: We'll talk about United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726721 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2429 Julie Timmerman when you come back. THE WITNESS: You're a disgusting human being. You're the only one out of this entire group of lawyers. You are truly, truly a disgusting human being. MR. NURIK: Scott, relax. (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) THE WITNESS: Whenever you're ready. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q When did you say you had stopped manipulating people? A I made a conscious decision to stop being the person that I was during the course of all these crimes on my return from Morocco. Q But you agree that even after you returned from Morocco, you manipulated people? A That is a very vague question that may impinge on the government's privilege. I'm going to need to defer to them. MR. LAVECCHIO: Point of clarification. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You acted in an undercover capacity? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: I believe that was -- was that not discussed at the sentencing? I United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726722 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2430 believe it was. MR. RABIN: Absolutely, it was. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: I have the sentencing transcript. Let me just hand it to you, and then I can come back. MR. LAVECCHIO: Is that the end of your question? MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Yes. MR. LAVECCHIO: That's the only question? MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Yeah. MR. LAVECCHIO: Did you participated in undercover -- Okay. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And I believe it was in your letter, Mr. Rothstein. MR. NURIK: We defer to the government on this. A I'm more than happy to answer it, if the government allows me. MR. LAVECCHIO: We don't have to spend a lot of time on this. You can answer the question yes or no. THE WITNESS: Can you reask the question, please? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726723 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2431 BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You acted in an undercover capacity after you came back from Morocco? A Yes. Q Let me ask you about Julie Timmerman. A Yes, ma'am. Q She was your law clerk? A She was. Q And she had been a hostess at a -- or some type of employee at Bova, also? A I believe she was. I don't recall whether she specifically was or not. I think at one point in time she did work at Bova. Q And in the last year -- A Yeah, she did. She did. Q And in the last year of the Ponzi scheme, you gave her four $15,000 payments. A I don't remember specifically whether it was the last year, but there was a point in time when she needed funds to complete law school and we gave her what we had called "student loans" through the firm. It was a decision that Stu Rosenfeldt and I made. Q You were sleeping with her, though, right? A There was a point in time when she and I had a physical relationship. It was prior to her working for United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726724 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2432 me. It didn't continue. Q And Ms. Timmerman, after the Ponzi scheme imploded, is alleged to have committed suicide; is that correct? A It's my understanding that she did commit suicide, yes. Q Your bodyguard was pretty close to you, right? A I believed him to be, yes. Are you talking about Mr. Scandiffio? Q Yes. Big Bob Scandiffio, he was close to you? A That's what I just said, yes, ma'am. Q And he also allegedly committed suicide after the Ponzi imploded, right? A My understanding from conversations with law enforcement was that he did, in fact, commit suicide. Q What did he know about you before he allegedly shot himself in the head? A Specifically, I don't recall everything he knew. He was a confidante of mine who was with me constantly. So I suspect he knew that I was -- well, he did, in fact, know that I was committing crimes. He did know that I was an adulterer. Q You deny having much to do with any one of those three deaths, right? A I didn't have anything to do with those United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726725 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2433 deaths. Q Every day you've been deposed, the morning has started with a discussion of the oath you're taking, right? A A discussion? I'm put under oath each morning. Q Put under oath or somebody asks you are you still under oath, there's always something about the oath before we start questioning you, right? A I think that's standard in a deposition, to make my testimony be sworn testimony. Q And you took an oath to tell the truth, right? A Every day that I've been deposed. Q And the lawyers -- when I mentioned discussion before, the lawyers questioning you over these days have often made a point that you're under oath or reminding you that you're under oath, right? A They made the point, and I made the point. Remember this morning, I asked to be put under oath? Q And you do that because you want folks to believe that since you're taking an oath, you're saying the truth, right? A No, actually. I really want to not have to repeat all this testimony again, and if I'm not under oath, the deposition testimony can't be used. I am United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726726 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2434 telling the truth. And yes, I do want people very much to understand that I am, in fact, telling the truth. Q You've violated oaths before, though, haven't you, sir? A In my prior incarnation, I certainly did. Q You violated your oath as an attorney? A I did. Q You lied to judges? A I did. Q You put money, filthy lucre, ahead of your clients' interests? A Filthy lucre? Q Yes. Money? A Yes. I know what "lucre" is. I've just never heard anyone use that in a question before. Q It's in the oath, sir. A I know it is. I remember the oath. I just -- "for lucre or malice," I remember that. Yes, I violated that oath. Q Your law firm's motto was passion, integrity and commitment, right? A That's correct. Q That was a lie? A Actually, when -- if you say that like that, United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726727 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2435 you're actually offending a tremendous number of really good decent lawyers because the bulk of the lawyers at RRA believed in passion, integrity and commitment. They were really good and decent people. Q Not you, though? A No. I was a very, very bad person. I think we've established that, and I think I've clearly admitted that. Q You violated the oath of your marriage? A I definitely did, yes. I already told you that. Q How many times did you do that? A Too many to count. Q You have perjured yourself? A Prior to returning from Morocco, I certainly did. Q You have been known as the "Prince of Darkness." A Yes. That was a name given to me back when I was a young lawyer. Q Mr. Rothstein, during the time of your criminal enterprise, you would agree you've been charming? A I think some would say I was charming; I think some would say I was a flaming A-hole. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726728 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2436 Q How about narcissistic? A I definitely had a narcissistic personality, yes. Q You repeatedly committed criminal acts? A Yes. I'm confident that that's clearly established. Q Repeatedly lied or conned people? A I did. Q You rationalized your having stolen from some people? A I did, along with my co-conspirators, absolutely. Q And you know, sir, that these are the classic clinical symptoms of sociopathy? A I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. Q Have you heard of the word "sociopathy"? A I certainly have. Q You've heard people use the word "sociopath"? A I certainly have. Q And you know that these symptoms that I just went over with you, charming, narcissistic, repeatedly committing criminal acts, repeatedly lying or conning people and rationalizing -- A You're asking me to diagnosis myself? Q Well, you're seeing -- you have seen a United Reporting. Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726729 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2437 psychiatrist, have you not, sir? A For acute anxiety disorder. Q You've had this discussion with your psychiatrist, have you not? A I have not. Q You've been prescribed sertraline? A For acute anxiety disorder. Q Do you know it is prescribed for sociopathy, sir? that. A No, actually, I didn't, until you just told me Q How do you know the prison doctor isn't just telling you it's an anxiety disorder to put that in your prison file so the government can use you as a witness? A I've actually never -- ALL PRESENT: Objection. A No, no -- MR. NURIK: Hold on. First of all, there is a privilege with his doctors. A Without waving any medical privilege, I have never -- the entire time I've been incarcerated -- ever seen a prison psychologist or psychiatrist or an outside psychologist or psychiatrist, ever. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You have -- United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726730 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2438 A The sertraline was prescribed to me by a medical doctor. Q For anxiety? A That's what it's used for, yes. It was actually the only drug, other than Paxil, that ever worked for it. Q You have no intention of dying in prison? A I certainly hope not to. Q You've always had a "plan El," haven't you? A The only plan that I had is the plan I would suggest your clients and the other people in here who are guilty use, and that is come clean, talk to the government, tell them what you did, pay for your crime, hope that you get out while you still have a life to live and go and be a productive member of society. That's the suggestion I have for all the people that are sticking their heads in the sand, including your clients. Q Southern Grant -- I'm sorry. Southern Grout and Mortar, do you remember that? A I do. Q And I think we've heard the story about you had a lawyer in your firm that botched some aspect of a lawsuit on behalf of the owner of that company. A Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726731 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2439 Q And having had the problem of the botched lawsuit, you had a "plan B," right? A Well, I don't now if I had a "plan B." Q You paid off the yacht, right? MR. NURIK: Well, let him finish. A Let me finish the answer. My "plan B" was the fact that the owner of the company is a criminal, okay, and it was very easy to fix what we needed to fix. I paid money to him so that his ex-wife wouldn't know what was going on and so that his daughter and his CFO would not know what was going on. It's not a "plan B." When you're doing business with criminals, you don't need to have a "plan B"; you just do. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Well, how about in the Morse cases, when Ed and Carol Morse had a lawsuit and there was some problem going down with that, didn't you have a "plan B" where you had to create fake court orders to get out of it? A You're misstating all of my prior testimony. It's not a "plan B." I had Ed Morse's son, who is the CEO and president of the company, Ted Morse, involved in criminal acts was me, including assisting me in stealing from his father. I didn't need to have a "plan B." I United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726732 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2440 needed to talk to Ted and figure out what -- for lack of a better phrase, what crime we were going to commit next and do what it was. You call it "plan B"; I call it a continuation of a criminal enterprise. Q In late 2009, when you were afraid that your Ponzi was going to implode without a big infusion of cash, wasn't "plan B" to threaten the doctrine of mutual destruction? A Yes, along with other criminals, that's correct. If you want to call it a "plan B" -- you're trying to say that I -- if one thing wasn't working, I tried something else, the answer is yes. Q All right. And when the Ponzi scheme did finally implode, your "plan B," rather than face the failure, was to either flee to Morocco or kill yourself? A It's not a "plan B." I don't think you're listening to my testimony. At some point in time, all these crimes were going to be exposed. I made a conscious decision to find a nonextradition country and flee to it. While I was in the nonextradition country sitting with plenty of money, as well as things that could be sold for plenty of money, I made the then-conscious decision -- maybe one of the only decisions in my life I am truly, truly proud of, I made United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726733 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2441 the decision to return to the United States, despite the fact that I was in a nonextradition country, to turn myself in, knowing that I was going to go to prison. Q Once you were in Morocco -- A Something I suggest your clients and the other guilty people do before it's too late. Q Once you were in Morocco, you talked to your lawyer, Mr. Nurik, right? A I'm sorry? Q Once you were in Morocco, you talked to your lawyer, Mr. Nurik? A I think we established on the 30th or the 31st, just prior to me deciding to come back, I spoke to Mr. Nurik. Q And you communicated with some of your co-conspirators? A I did. Q By email, correct? A Some by email, some by text. Q What -- A Some by phone. Q What email addresses were you using? A I don't recall. Q You had more than the Scott Rothstein law firm email address? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726734 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2442 A No. You're saying what email addresses I was using. That would mean email addresses I was writing to, as well. I used [email protected]. Q You did not write from any other email address? A I don't think I had any other email addresses. Q While you were there, your plan became to come back to the United States, right? A My plan? It was a conscious decision I made to turn myself in. Q But it wasn't just to turn yourself in and do your time, right? A I made a decision to come back, turn myself in, go to prison and tell the government everything I knew about everyone else that had committed crimes. Q Right. So you did -- A And everything about my crimes. Q So you didn't just decide to come back and, like a Bernie Medoff, take your sentence and spend the rest of your life in jail -- A Are you -- Q -- that wasn't your plan? A Whoa, whoa, are you suggesting that Bernie Madoff, who worked to help other people that were in the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726735 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2443 know get away with his crime, that I'm the same? You're not even close. You're not even close. Mr. Madoff should have taken me, and I'm proud to say this, as an example as to what you do when you want to do the right thing. He did the wrong thing. Because if you think he did that by himself, then you don't know anything about how these crimes work. Q The point is, Mr. Madoff came back -- I mean, Mr. Madoff got his sentence and is serving it; but that's not what your plan was, right? Your plan was to get a sentence and hopefully reduce it, right? A At the time that I decided to come back, I had no idea what was going to happen to me. The discussions I had with my wife and other people that I was talking to who were counselling me, revolved around the fact that when I stepped back on U.S. soil, I could very likely die in prison. Despite the fact that I knew that it was a very real possibility, I came back. Q Before you got on that plane in Morocco to return to the United States, you had decided that you were going to begin cooperating with the government in the hopes of reducing your sentence? A I had made a decision to come back and tell the truth about everything I was involved in. I had already been -- without getting into United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726736 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2444 anything that would waive attorney-client privilege, okay, and my spousal privilege, okay, I was under the belief that I could die in prison, regardless of what I told anybody. So I made a decision to leave what I believed was a safe haven to come back to this. Okay. Do I now hope that I will get a reduction? Of course I do. Every single person in prison hopes they will get out someday. Q What sentence did you think you were facing? A 100 years. Q Before, before you left Morocco. A Before I left Morocco? Q Yes. A Life. Q But you believed at that point that you would have enough information on other people that your sentence might be reduced to a point where you would be able to get out of jail? A I didn't have any conscious decision about that one way or the other. I hoped that my cooperation would yield a reduction in my sentence -- Q At what point did you decide -- A -- but -- but -- Q Oh, go ahead. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726737 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2445 A -- but -- Q I apologize. A -- given the fact that I had practiced law for some time, I also knew that it was a possibility, as I do know sitting here right now, that I could end up dying in prison. That is the fact of the matter. Q And you don't want that to happen? A No, ma'am. I do not wish to die in prison. Q At what point did you decide to start assisting the trustee and Mr. Scherer in this case? A In order to answer that question, I would have to give you attorney-client-privileged information, and I'm going to -- THE WITNESS: Do you want to make this objection? MR. NURIK: You already did for me, but that's okay. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q At what time -- MR. NURIK: That's your privilege. THE WITNESS: I'm invoking attorney-client privilege. That's your answer. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q I'm not asking you what your lawyer told you; United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726738 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2446 I wouldn't ask you that. I'm asking at what point did you decide to start helping the Trustee and Mr. Scherer? Was it before you left to Morocco? A No. Q It was after that, right? A Well, it would have to be after that because -- Q Was it before your sentence -- A Hang on. Wait. I'm answering. When I left to Morocco, there was no Trustee; and even when I came back, I didn't know there was going to be a trustee. I had no idea what was going to happen on the civil side of this. It was not something I was thinking about. I had -- I had one goal: come back, tell the government everything I know, make sure the innocent investors got their money back. That was it. Q But then, at some point, you believed or came to believe that if you helped the Trustee and Mr. Scherer, you might get some credit for that for a sentence reduction. A Actually, you're 100 percent wrong. My understanding is that while they're certainly allowed to talk about anything that I've United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726739 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2447 helped happen, that my cooperation is evaluated based upon my cooperation in criminal investigations and criminal prosecutions. I don't think the Rule 35 statute says anything about civil anything. My purpose in cooperating with Mr. Scherer and Ms. Van Vliet and Mr. Lichtman and everyone else representing innocent parties, is to make sure that, my wish, that the innocent investors get all their money back, actually comes to fruition. Q You talked about Ponzi-speak. Let's talk about prison-speak, since you're talking about Rule 35. A Q Now, you know that the government is the one that files the Rule 35 motion, right? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And, in fact, it did, right? A Yes. Q And the Rule 35, as you just suggested, is a motion that is filed when the government, in its own estimation, has determined that you have provided substantial assistance, right? A I understand that's what the rule says. Q Right. And that's what you were just trying United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726740 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2448 to cite to me a minute ago, right, what the rule or the statute says, right? A Cite to you? I was telling you what my -- you asked me what my understanding was. I gave you my understanding. Q Okay. But you know, sir, that once the government has filed the Rule 35 and you get back in front of a judge, anybody can get up and talk about how wonderful you are in the hopes that that might get the judge to reduce your sentence, right? A I believe it's up to the judge. Q Right. And it's up to the judge, just like it was up to the judge the last time you were before him, right? A It is completely in his hands. Q Right. And the last time you were before him, although it was totally in the judge's hands, you had somebody get up and speak on your behalf, did you not? A I'm sorry, who spoke on my behalf, other than me? Q Mr. Nurik spoke on your behalf, did he not? A He's my lawyer. Q Okay. And he was there and he spoke on your behalf, right? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726741 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2449 MR. NURIK: I would hope so. A If he got up and said things that were not on my behalf, that would have been a little problematic, right? He's my lawyer. His job -- BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And the -- A Hang on. I'm answering questions, and I know you want to stay on your roll, but I want to make sure the record is clear. He got up representing me. Okay. And make no mistake about it, Mr. Nurik was furious with me. Q And the reason he got up and argued on your behalf was to attempt to convince the judge that what you deserved was a sentence of 30 years not 40 years like Mr. Lavecchio was asking? A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Okay. And you had a letter from Herb Stettin that was presented to the judge, right? A I don't recall. Q Do you know who Herb Stettin is? A I do. Q And you don't recall him having written Judge Cohn a letter for you? A It's kind of a blur. I remember my mom wrote United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726742 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2450 a letter. My sister wrote a letter. I remember now, because we talked about it earlier in testimony, Mr. Scherer wrote a letter. Q And the point -- A I remember that there was a really -- now, because I hadn't seen it before -- nasty letter written by Coquina. Q The point of all those letters, the good and the nasty, were to influence the judge in the judge's sentencing determination, right? A I believe the purpose is to properly educate the judge so he can make as informed decision as possible, yes. Q So, now that the government has filed a Rule 35, you'll have another sentencing hearing before Judge Cohn, right? A I don't know. I don't know if there's going to be a hearing or not. I understand it could be done by the Court; it could be done without me there. I don't know what will happen. Q Do you hope to have a hearing? A I hope to get a Rule 35 reduction for my substantial assistance -- Q You want somebody to tell the judge what you United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726743 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2451 did? A Why are you cutting me off? Just let me finish, please. I hope to have a Rule 35 substantial assistance reduction. How we get there, that's up to the judge and the government; it's not up to me. Q Don't you hope that there's a hearing that Mr. Lavecchio gets up, asks and tells the judge about how much you've done? A If that is going to help educate the Court, then yes, I hope there's a hearing. If the Court doesn't require that information or to hear from me or to hear from other people, then that's what will happen. Q And you hope that at such a hearing, your lawyer will have an opportunity to tell the judge what you've done and how you deserve to have your sentence reduced? A I hope that all the information about everything that I've done since my return from Morocco is presented in full to the Court; and I hope that he's fair with me, that he considers everything that I've done before and after and comes to a fair determination for me. That's my hope. Q And you hope Herb Stettin provides the judge with information that the judge might find favorable to United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726744 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2452 you? A I think I've answered this over and over. I hope that every single person that has something to offer about anything positive that I have done since my return from Morocco is heard so that the judge can make a fair decision based upon everything that he should consider to determine whether or not I'm entitled to a reduction. Q And you believe that the more the judge hears that's favorable about you, the more likely it will be that the judge will reduce your sentence? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A I don't know that it's like a "more" thing. I think it's the -- an examination of my cooperation. I don't know that it's like you stack all the cooperation up. It's based upon the quality of my cooperation. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Let's talk about that, Mr. Rothstein. When you talk about the quality of your cooperation and the quantity of your cooperation, certainly, if your cooperation entails nothing more than advising the government about somebody who had passed a fake check once at a bank, you could not expect a sentence reduction as large as you might expect if you provided information that led to the indictment of five United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726745 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2453 people, including a politician or a judge, including a lawyer or a doctor, correct? A Or a banker. ALL PRESENT: Object to form. A I believe that that is a fair statement, that the judge -- that the government, first, will evaluate; and then the judge will evaluate it, based upon the quantity, but more importantly, the quality of my cooperation. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And certainly, if Judge Stettin (sic) and Mr. Scherer and Mr. Lichtman come in and say to the judge, not only did he help the government, but he helped us, and he helped our clients, who deserve to be helped, that that may help you get your sentence reduced further? A Assuming that the Court wishes to consider that, that would be helpful; but I can't guess as to what he's going to consider or not consider. Q But you can tell us -- A The only thing I know about -- Q -- what you hope. A Yes, I hope he considers everything that I've done, sure. MR. SCHERER: Object to form. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726746 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2454 BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Who bought the clothes you've been wearing these last two weeks? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Object to fashion. A I bought the sneakers. My wife bought me the watch. I bought my underwear. Mr. Nurik loaned me my belt, and he brought me a pair of jeans and this shirt. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You've had more than one shirt -- MR. NURIK: Which, for the Court, I will add to my bill. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You've had more than one shirt; Mr. Nurik bought you the shirts you've been wearing? A Three. MR. NURIK: Target. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You said you bought your sneakers; is that with money out of your commissary account? A It's money I earned, actually, in prison, teaching. Q Does anybody put money in your commissary account? A Yes. Q Who? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726747 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2455 A My wife. My parents. My sister. Q How old are you? A 49. Q And you've been in for a couple of years, right? A Two years this past December 1st. Q Assuming you have the opportunity to get up before Judge Cohn for a resentencing, what do you hope for? A Say this again? I lost you. Q Assuming you have the opportunity to get up before Judge Cohn for resentencing, what do you hope to get? A I don't -- I don't know what a resentencing is. Are you talking about -- Q A second sentencing, sir; you've been sentenced once, have you not? A Yeah, but I don't think it works that way. I think that there's a Rule 35 hearing, and then he enters an order on the Rule 35. I don't think -- I've read some of the case law. I don't think you actually go through a resentencing. Q What do you hope the sentence is -- A As a matter of fact, I think there's case law United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726748 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2456 that says it's not a resentencing because that would trigger certain other things that they don't want to trigger. Q What do you hope your sentence is? A Whatever is fair. I mean, I would love to get out as soon as possible. Prison is a very bad place. Okay. I know there's a lot of talk about where I am and stuff, and I can't talk about that; but make no mistake about it, I'm in prison, okay. It's a very bad place, and I can tell you with 100 percent certainty there is nobody in there that does not want to go home today. I would like to go home today. That is wholly unrealistic. Okay. I would like to go home today. Q Before your incarceration, you lied for money, right? MR. SCHERER: Object, form. A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q And you used a pitch to get what you wanted? ALL PRESENT: Object, form. A Yes. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q Your hope to get out of prison today is a reason for you to lie, isn't it? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726749 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2457 A You apparently are not paying attention to what Judge Cohn is all about, the magnitude of my crime and what I'm facing. You're -- you've got to pay attention to what's going on. Okay. My hope to get out is solely, solely based upon my telling the truth about everything I know. MR. SCHERER: Withdraw my objection. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You have -- MR. LICHTMAN: We object to that question. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q You have at least 50 reasons to lie, don't you? ALL PRESENT: Object to form. A In prison we actually count it by days. BY MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Q How many days have you got? A I don't know. A lot. A lot. Over 10,000, I think. Q So over 10,000 reasons to lie? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A No. You, again -- MR. NURIK: Just answer. A The answer is no. I have the opposite of what United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726750 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2458 you're saying. Okay. I have every reason, 10,000-something reasons, okay, to tell the truth. MS. BARZEE-FLORES: Nothing further. THE WITNESS: Sam, do you mind if we take five minutes? MR. RABIN: No, that's fine. (Whereupon, a recess was had.) MR. SCHERER: This record closes at 12:00. MR. NURIK: Let's go. I'm going to ask a few questions at the end just to clarify some points so -- but we -- go ahead. FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RABIN: Q Okay. Good morning again, Mr. Rothstein. A Good morning, Mr. Rabin. Q All right. First I just want to pick up on a few points. Then I want to go into a completely new area. You said in response to questions this morning that you were amazed that people would write so many incriminating things in emails, correct? A Yes. Q All right. Was it your conscious desire to try to avoid writing incriminating things in emails? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726751 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2459 A It was and it wasn't. There were times when I was very careful not to put incriminating things in emails, and looking back on it, there were times when I wrote things I probably shouldn't have written. Q Would it be fair to say that you were conscious of the fact you were trying to leave as few trails as possible of your illegal acts? A At times I was and at times I wasn't. Q The subject of tax fraud has come up at least two or three times in the course of this deposition; and each time, you've said that you committed fraud the wrong way because, I guess, you're suggesting that you paid more taxes than you should have? A I did. Q Okay. Did you include in your taxes all of the cash that you were pulling out in cash and using in your various assorted and sundry matters? A Not by listing it as cash, but I more than accounted for it in the income that I -- that I declared. Q Okay. So you didn't specifically indicate the amount of cash on your tax return that you were -- that you were using or that you had? A I didn't say it was cash. I -- it was more United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726752 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2460 than included. What I did was, so you know, Mr. Rabin, was, I wanted to avoid an audit; or if I got an audit, I wanted them to, as they were going through it, determine that, wait a second, this guy doesn't owe any taxes, if anything we owe him money. So I instructed Tracy Weintraub to inflate my income by tens of millions of dollars, which he did. Q So, essentially, what you're saying is you paid more taxes, but you lied about the manner in which you did it? A Yeah. I'm not -- by no means, Mr. Rabin, I'm not trying to excuse my conduct. I'm not saying I didn't commit fraud on the IRS. I'm just pointing out the fact that I kind of did it in a backwards fashion. Q Another theme that you've developed through the course of this deposition in your answers is that you told the people that were involved in your Ponzi scheme just what you needed to tell them in order to get them to do the things that you needed them to do; is that fair to say? MR. SCHERER: Objection. Form. A Certain people, I told them just what they needed to know. Certain people, I probably told them too little; and certain people I told too much. It just United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726753 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2461 varied. BY MR. RABIN: Q Okay. I want to break these down into groups and try and get your best recollection as to what you told different people in order to engage them in your scheme. And I want to start first with the people in your law firm. Okay? A Sure. Q All right. Russell Adler, you generally described the fact that he helped you round up other lawyers to provide false verifications that they were either sending business or cases to your firm, correct? A That is one of the things that he did, yes. Q And what was the -- what was it that you told him was the reason why you needed those lawyers? First of all, was it honest or a lie and what was the -- A No, it was honest. Q Okay. And what -- it was honest, what you told him? A I told Mr. Adler -- to the best of my recollection, I told him that we had the hedge funds coming in town and that in order to convince them to continue to do business with us, that I needed these people to lie about the number of cases we had. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726754 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2462 Q So, essentially, what you're saying is, you honestly told him aspects of the scheme or he already knew aspects of the scheme and you told him the honest purpose for which you were lining up these lawyers? Is that what you're saying? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A I don't understand the question but you have -- BY MR. RABIN: Q Let me rephrase it. MR. SCHERER: Objection to form. BY MR. RABIN: Q I don't want you to answer a question you don't understand. Is your -- what you just summarized or just testified to is that you told Adler that you needed these lawyers to provide false information? A I told Adler -- yes, I told Adler I needed these lawyers to lie. Q Okay. David Roden, generally what was David Boden's role? A He was my general counsel, and he ran a sub-Ponzi scheme, as we've come to call it. Q All right. And what was the lie that you told or the honest information that you gave David Boden in United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726755 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2463 order to let him get involved in your scheme? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A I would have to see all the email traffic with him to break that down for you, Mr. Rabin. There were things that I told him that were true about the scheme. There were things that I told him that were false about the scheme. There were things he told me that were true about his scheme and things that he told me that were false about his scheme. There was -- David and I were engaged in so much lying back and forth that without seeing that email traffic, there's just no way I can pinpoint that for you. Q So -- A It's impossible. Q Well, you wouldn't put lies in an email, though, would you? A Of course I did. Q You did? A I think I've been saying that for now eight days and a couple of hours. Q So without looking at the emails, is it your testimony that you have no independent recollection of anything that you told David Boden regarding what you needed to say to get him to help you? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726756 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2464 A It's not that I don't have -- I mean, I can sit here and start -- try to think about it, but giving me the emails would refresh my recollection and make it a lot easier on all of us. Q And that also has been a common theme throughout the course of the eight days or nine days; but what I'm asking you for today is your best recollection. Because, as you can appreciate, there may not be email trails as to what you told people in your conversations with them. So I'm asking you what was your best recollection or what is your best recollection regarding what you told Boden. MR. NURIK: Are we talking about in emails or in conversations? BY MR. RABIN: Q No. Conversations. A In conversations, I -- let me do it by way of giving you some examples, and maybe you can ask me questions as follow-up that will get you to where you're trying to go. At one point in time I had to explain to David Boden how to use the fake TD website. I took him in, and I showed him how to utilize it, how to log in, how to avoid going to the wrong places that would actually take him to a real TD website. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726757 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2465 BY MR. RABIN: Q Did you -- A Prior to that a -- Q Just let me ask a follow-up question, and then you can continue. A Sure, sure. Q Can you tell him what the purpose of the fake TD Bank website was when you showed him that? A I -- he knew what it was. That's why he wanted to use the fake TD website; he was going to use it to induce his investors. Q Okay. Go ahead. A By the same token, early on, before he knew there was a Ponzi scheme, I told him that these were legitimate investments, so he had heard both. It was much like that with many people who originally thought that what we were doing was legitimate; and as they came to detect red flags, realized that there were crimes going on, and they, themselves, made the decision to get involved, based upon requests that I made of for them to do various things. I told him in conversations to be very careful what he wrote to me, that I didn't know whether Curtis or Bill Corte -- and this is a specific conversation, because I remember thinking at some point in time that United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726758 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2466 someone was reading my emails because certain things looked open. And I remember telling him, be careful what you write to me -- this was towards the end, let's say from June, July, until the implosion -- be very careful when he was writing to me because I was afraid that someone might be reading my emails. I was going to try to increase the security level on our email system and the encryption. I told him to be very careful what he told Pearson, Richard Pearson. He told me that I didn't need to worry about Pearson. Do you want to give me some other topics with him and I can give you some additional information, because there's a lot more. I mean, I had a lot of conversations. I consulted at length with him the fraud I was committing with Tracy Weintraub, because David was a very, very bright corporate-paper man. And there was a time -- actually, I had detailed conversations with him on an opinion letter that he was having to prepare. I think it was for Barry Florescu. It might have been for one of his other investors. I had detailed conversations with him -- this was about the fraud -- about how Frank Preve and I and United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726759 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2467 the other people that were involved in putting together prior opinion letters, had placed the false information in there. I had conversations with him about what to show people and what not to show people and how best to sell the product. I gave him extensive one-on-one--- let's call them primers on how to sell product. I mean, David was a confidant. There's a lot that I told him. Q Okay. Let me move on to yesterday, I believe it was, you identified Adelita Cabello as a Stuart Rosenfeldt's paralegal and the person that you had act the part of a Florida Bar lawyer? A Correct. Q How many times did she do that? A Once. Q Okay. And was that the only time you had somebody pose as a Florida Bar lawyer? A To the best of my recollection. Q Okay. And what was it you told Ms. Cabello in order to get her to do that? A I gave her some specific questions that they were going to ask. I briefed her on how to answer them, and I told her that if they asked anything that she United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726760 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2468 couldn't answer or was uncomfortable answering, to simply say that that's Bar privilege or something to that effect, that she couldn't get into that. Q Mr. Rothstein, that wasn't the question I asked you. My question was: What did you tell her was the reason for her -- A I'm sorry. Q -- to do that? A I misheard you. Q Okay. A I didn't tell her the reason. Q And you're saying that she didn't ask why she needed to do that? A She may have, but a lot of my people were extremely loyal, and they were, unfortunately, used to being asked to do things that were not appropriate. My opinion is, is that that's the way she perceived this and she wanted to be a good, quote, unquote, soldier, and she just did it. Q Was she given any cash? A She was not. Q Okay. Marybeth Feiss was somebody that was involved in drafting fake documents? A That's correct. Q All right. You have already said that with United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726761 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2469 Debra Villages, that the lie that you told her was that the Mafia was after you and that's why you needed these fake documents, right? A Yeah. Sometimes in the middle of the scheme, when Debra was getting very concerned about continuing it -- this was in 2009 sometime -- I told Debra that I had to continue it, that the mob was involved. That was a lie. Q Okay. What was the lie that you told her in order for her to start doing it, then? A I didn't tell her any lie to start doing it. Q She just -- did she just basically, willingly engage in a crime with you without any preconceived misconceptions? A Actually, one of the things you're going to see through -- in the entire thing, this applies to Debra and many others, is that there is a very slow, apparently smooth glide into the criminal activity. It starts with little things and it grows. So, yes, there is nobody that I can think of off the top of my head that was involved in any -- even the tentacles of this massive crime, that I said, hey, we're going to commit a crime or said, I'm going to commit a fraud or even anything of that nature. We just started doing things. You ask people to do things, and United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726762 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2470 you see whether they're going to do it or not. You gauge their response. That's what would happen. That's -- Q Okay. Mr. Rothstein, I'm going to try -- and if you can, just focus on my questions, rather than the speeches. It's very narrow. I'm just trying to find out with each of these people, what you told them to get them to work with you. Okay? A All right. Q Thank you. All right. We left off at Marybeth Feiss. What did you tell Marybeth Feiss? A I don't recall telling her anything. I think Deb filled her in. Q So you don't recall any specific conversations with her before she started preparing fake documents? A Other than asking her to hand me documents or make sure I get documents on time, no. I think Deb filled her in on all that. Q Did she leave your firm? A For a period of time, yes. Q Before everything blew up? A Yes. And then she came back, I think. Q When she left your firm, do you know where she went? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726763 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2471 A I don't. She had told me that she was leaving to go take care of her children, but Debra told me that she was leaving because she was concerned about what was going on with all these documents. Q Were you concerned when she left that she might go to the authorities with the information that she had? A Yes. Q Same question for Melissa Lewis, she left for a period of time, correct? A Melissa had no idea what was going on. Q Okay. You don't -- you know she was best friends with Villegas, right? A Yes. Q And Villegas knew everything that was going on, pretty much? A Debra knew a lot, yes. Q You really can't sit here and say what Villegas told Lewis, could you? A No, but I was never under the impression, in my opinion, that Melissa knew anything. Q Okay. And with respect to Debra Villegas, you said that she started out just doing illegal things; but at some point in time, she kind of like was -- became reluctant. And then you told her, in order to keep her United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726764 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2472 going, about the mob, correct? A She became very concerned. Sometime in 2009 she became concerned, and I made up the story about my life being in danger. Q Did you know that her -- at Ms. Villegas' sentencing, that she told the judge that the reason she got involved in this from start to finish was because of your story about the mob? A That would actually be incorrect. Q So she would have lied, then, if she said that? A That would be a false statement, sir. Yes. Q Okay. Steve Goldstein, you identified him as the lawyer who posed as a Judge Marra? A Scott Goldstein. Q I'm sorry. Scott Goldstein. I know Steve Goldstein. A Be careful, you could hurt another lawyer. Q Scott Goldstein. Change that. I'm sorry. He was the lawyer that posed as Judge Marra? A Yes. Q Did he pose as any other judges? A He posed as a circuit court judge once or twice. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726765 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2473 Q Well, the circuit court judge whose name you forged on the order was a female, wasn't it? A I don't recall. Q Susan Black? A No. Susan Black was an appellate court judge. Q Right. A I'm sorry, Mr. Rabin, state circuit court. Q Okay. So this Scott Goldstein posed as Judge Marra. Do you know who else he posed as? A Whoever the real male judge was in one of the Morse cases. Q Okay. And what -- what did you -- A Sorry. Q Did you tell Scott -- is something funny? A Actually, yes. I just remembered Ted Morse saying to me when I said he posed as this other judge, Ted actually said to me at the time that he played -- he had played the circuit judge first; and when he played Judge Marra, Ted actually said to me, you need to get someone else to play one of the other judges because their voices sound the same and my father said something to me about it. That is what was funny. Q Were both of the roles he played, both of the judges he played, interacted with Mr. Morse, the elder? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726766 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2474 A Yes. Q Is that what you're saying? A Yes, that was the purpose. Q And what did you tell Scott Goldstein in order to get him to do that? A I told Scott Goldstein that Ted did not want his father involved in anymore litigation and that Ted was going to ultimately fund settlements to get -- he was going to funnel money through us and get back to Ed to make Ed think he won these things so this could all be done with, and this was part and parcel of that plan and we were assisting Ted to do this. Q So you essentially fabricated an entire story for Scott Goldstein in order to get him to play the role -- A Yes. Q -- fair enough? A Ted and I did, yes. Q I know you're saying, well, Ted did it. I understand, but I am just asking about what you did. Okay. A I understand that, but what I did was with somebody. So if you're asking me what I did, I'm going to tell you what I did and with whom. Q Okay. Howard Kusnick, he was a lawyer who -- United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726767 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2475 was he with your firm at one point and then left? A Ted and I -- not Ted and I. Howard and I were partners many years before that. Then we split up, and then he joined my firm. Q And then he ultimately participated by writing fake letters and saying that he sent cases to you, a lot of cases to your firm? A I don't think he was a referral. I don't think he faked the referral thing. He wrote fake letters. Q Okay. What did you tell him to get him to write fake letters? A I didn't tell him anything. Q You had to tell him something to get him to write a letter. What did you tell him? A Write this letter. Q So just it was a command from the head of the firm -- write a letter -- with no explanation? A No. Howard was a criminal from way back; it was not complicated to get him to do that. Q Okay. Steve Lippman was a lawyer in your firm? A Yes. Q What generally did he do? A Commercial litigation. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726768 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2476 Q What type of -- what was his involvement in your criminal activities? A Massive check kiting, money laundering, lying to clients -- Q Okay. And what did you have to tell him to get him to play along? A -- bank fraud. Q What did you have to tell him to get him to play along? A Nothing. Q Nothing? He just was a criminal from way back, as well? A I don't know. He appeared to me to have a -- to be what's called loosey-goosey when I first met with him to join in my firm because he wanted me to engage in income tax evasion as part of his compensation package. Q Okay. You mentioned this lawyer, Ken Padowitz, several times during the course of this deposition as somebody who you had, I guess, write a letter? A Opinion letter, yes. Q Okay. And you indicated the opinion letter was about things that you and Preve drafted that you believe Padowitz had absolutely no knowledge about? A To the best of my knowledge, he had no idea United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726769 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2477 what that letter was about, as far as the contents of it. He didn't know the -- understand the intricacies of that area of the law. Q What was it that you told Mr. Padowitz in order to get him to write that letter? A To best of my recollection, I simply told him, I need this letter, put it on your letterhead, and I paid him for it. Q How much did you pay him? A I think five grand. Maybe 2,500, maybe five grand. Q Check or cash? A Cash. Q And I assume there is no witnesses to the payment, right? A No. Adler is a witness to me asking him to do it. Q That wasn't my question. Were there any witnesses to the payment? A I think I was just thinking out loud, Mr. Rabin. I'm sorry. Q That's all right. A I don't believe there were any witnesses to the payment. There may have been. Q Well, there may have been, that's not -- United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726770 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2478 doesn't make an absolute answer. Who may have been a witness, then? A I can't give you an absolute answer. There may have been a witness, because I handed him the money -- here's the problem. Where his office was situated, there was a lot of foot traffic, and I simply walked into his office and gave him the money. Q And did you give him any reason at all why you needed the letter? A I did not tell him why I needed the letter. Mr. Padowitz, I had known, had engaged in substantial amounts of fraud previously. He was -- he's one of those guys that you know, you pay him, he'll put it on a letter, anything for a buck. Q What other fraud did you know he had engaged in? A Fraud involving his judicial campaign, and he had lied during the course of various cases that he was handling when he was a partner of Russ Adler's. Q All right. Stuart Rosenfeldt, you talked about him a lot during the course of the deposition. What is it that you had to tell him in order to get him involved in your scheme? A Nothing. Q So he knew from the beginning that it was United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726771 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2479 criminal and willingly engaged in it? A At the time he discovered what was going on, which was simply by looking in the accounts and asking me where the money was coming from, yes, he knew I was involved in criminal activity and then he knew he was involved in criminal activity. Q Irene Stay was your chief financial officer? A Yes. Q And she was moving money between and among your various accounts, actually doing the transactional side of it? A Yes. Q Did you ever explain to her what you were doing with the movement of money? A I didn't need to. Q Why not? A Because Irene was a -- involved in fraud way back when I first met her when she was the bookkeeper for a law firm called Phillips, Eisinger Koss. It later became Phillips, Eisinger, Koss, Rothstein & Rosenfeldt. She was regularly engaged in fraud with the senior partners of that firm, Gary Phillips and with Dennis Eisinger, involving accounting and tax evasion and the like. Q How did you know that? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726772 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2480 A Because I was part of this. Q You were part of that fraud? A I received money from it. Q Okay. Did you have an intimate relationship with Irene Stay? A I'm sorry? Q Did you have an intimate relationship -- I'm trying to be delicate. A No. I didn't realize when your said "intimate." Nevermind what I thought you said. No, I did not. Q How about Debra Villegas? A No. Q Okay. And Debra Villegas, you said that -- about halfway through, that you mentioned that the mob story to her, correct? A I don't remember if it was halfway. My recollection is it was 2009 some time, when the things were getting really crazy in the office. Q Well, 2009 is more than halfway through, actually, would it be? A That's why I said I don't know that it would be halfway. Q All right. And now I want to talk about TD Bank. I think you identified three different people at United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726773 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2481 the bank who you had interaction with, if I'm not mistaken, Spinosa, Caretsky and Kerstetter, correct? A You are going to have to define "interaction." Q Well, in terms of helping you with any aspects of your scheme, that you were aware of? A Ms. Kerstetter, all she did was hand me an envelope. I do not know anything else about the extent of her knowledge. You'd have to talk to Mr. Boockvor or Ms. Caretsky or Mr. Spinosa. Q Did you have any conversations with Ms. Kerstetter about what she was doing in terms of helping you? A To my recollection, no. Q Okay. With respect to Ms. Caretsky, you testified previously that she was given money and helped you with the switches of statements. What did you tell her to get her involved? A I told her, as I testified previously, that I needed to convince clients of mine that I had more money in the bank than I did in order to get them to give me a substantial increase in my business. Q Okay. And do you recall when you told her that? A I do not. Q Okay. With Mr. Spinosa, you -- he prepared a United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726774 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2482 series of letters that have come to be known as lock letters at your request, correct? A Yes. Q The first one was August 17th; do you recall that? A I don't. Q Well, let's just -- let me ask the question differently, then. A Sure. Q What was it you told Mr. Spinosa in order when you requested the first letter? A I don't recall, specifically. Q So as you sit here today, you don't recall what explanation you gave him for requesting the letter? A I would have to really sit down and read the email traffic to see what I said and how I said it. I don't recall what reason I gave him for the letters, except to tell him that I needed them. Q You would not have told him some illegal or improper reason; is that fair to say? A I don't know what I told him. I don't know what I told him. I would have to look at the email traffic and see if it refreshes my recollection. Q Is there anybody else at TD Bank that you can recall that you had any interaction with? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726775 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2483 A Illegal interaction? Q Yes. A No. Q Okay. Gibraltar Bank, the other bank that you testified about, I think you mentioned two different names, Mr. Harris and Mr. Hayworth? A And Ms. Ellis. Q And Ms. Ellis. Okay. Ms. Ellis, generally, what was her role? A She was a bank manager. Q What did she do to help you, if anything? A She kept us apprised of problems with our accounts, helped us move money around. I never had any discussions with her, so the record is clear about criminal activity. Q So you never spoke to her at all? A Oh, I spoke to her a lot. Q About anything related to either criminal activity or reasons to ask her for favors, anything? A The only things that I said to Lisa would be contained in emails, and I don't recall, other than giving her carte blanche to move money around in a manner that was certainly, by my way of thinking, suspicious, I didn't have any conversations about illegality with Ms. Ellis. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726776 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2484 Q All right. Steve Hayworth, he was president of the bank? A Q Q Q Yes. All right. You -- CEO. Sorry? CEO. CEO. You ultimately invested in that bank? A I did. Q Did you ever have any conversations with him about what you were doing? A About what I was doing? Q Yes. A No. Q All right. A Only about the BSA. Q I'm sorry? A Only about the BSA AML issue. Q And that conversation, there was one of those? A One or a couple. It was the same conversation, though, very brief. Q And ultimately you invested in the bank, correct? A I did. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726777 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2485 Q You never told him the source of the funds regarding your investment, did you? A No. He could see the source of funds. Q Which were? A I took it from somebody who had sent money to one of my trust accounts. Q Essentially you concealed from him any illegal activity that you were conducting, correct? A No, no, no, the whole purpose of my investment was based upon his illegal statement -- what I believe was an illegality, telling me that they don't investigate shareholders of the bank. Q Okay. A That was the triggering event. Q And based upon that claimed conversation, you invested in the bank? A It's not a claimed conversation. It happened. That's why I invested in the bank. Q When you say that, there is no witnesses to it but Scott Rothstein, correct? A And John Harris. Q Okay. John Harris, what did he do? A What did he do in real life or -- MR. NURIK: Hold on one second. I'm just a little confused. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726778 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2486 MR. RABIN: Okay. MR. NURIK: We have been going on, this is the ninth day. We have had multiple parties asking questions concerning Gibraltar. It's my understanding that you represent Mr. Spinosa -- MR. RABIN: Correct. MR. NURIK: -- who works for TD Bank. MR. RABIN: Correct. MR. NURIK: We are going over ground that we have gone over before several times. I don't understand why you're asking these questions now concerning Gibraltar officials. MR. RABIN: Actually, really, I'm asking questions about what lies he told to the various people that he was -- that he engaged in his scheme, and that's the context of it, Mr. Nurik; and I appreciate your objection. MR. SCHERER: I am going to object to the form, also. MR. RABIN: Okay. MR. SCHERER: I mean, all of this is really over-the-top repetitive, Sam. I wish you would finish, so there would be a little bit of time left. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726779 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2487 MR. RABIN: Well, okay, none of these questions have been covered, because I have read the transcripts, as well as sat here; and nobody has asked him any questions about what he specifically told people to get them involved. And if you could point me to the answers in any transcript, then I would be happy to stand down on these questions. BY MR. RABIN: Q Mr. Rothstein? A Yes, sir. Q Regarding Mr. Harris, he was -- what was his position at the bank? A He was a senior or executive vice president, and he was in charge of Fort Lauderdale market. I don't recall what his title was. Q Did you lie to him at all? A Yes. Q About what? A A whole variety of things. If you show me the email traffic, I can point them out to you. Q I want your best independent recollection of the things you lied to him about. MR. SCHERER: Object to the form. A I lied to him from time to time about where I United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726780 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2488 was. I lied to him about where certain money was coming for certain business investments I had. I really have to look at the email traffic. I just -- I told John Harris a lot of lies, and I told him a lot of truths. And he and I were involved in a lot of criminal activity together. And I can't do it without the email traffic, because I'm just sitting here guessing because I'm poking in the dark. Q I don't want you to guess. I just want your best recollection. If you don't recall, that's a fair answer: I don't recall. A I just don't recall at this moment. Q Okay. Michael Szafranski is a name that has come up throughout the course of the deposition. He was hired as a, quote, unquote, independent verifier? A Yes. Q All right. What lies did you tell him in order to get him to falsely verify information to his investors? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A To falsely -- at the time that he became involved in the Ponzi scheme, there were very few lies that I needed to tell him because he was all in. Early on I had told him -- he believed that this whole thing was real. Once he discovered it wasn't United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726781 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2489 real, there was no real reason to lie to him; but I'm certain if you give me the email traffic, I can tell you. Independent recollection, at this moment, I don't recall, and I don't want to guess. Q So, essentially, what you're saying is when he first got involved, he was, what he believed to be, verifying what he thought were legitimate transactions; is that right? ALL PRESENT: Object to form. A You're asking me to get inside his head. It's my opinion that early on he believed that, but after a short period of time, it became clear to him, because I think it would to anyone really looking at stuff, that it was not real. But that's my opinion. BY MR. RABIN: Q Okay. Richard Pearson, Mr. Pearson was who? A He was part of the Boden/Pearson sub-Ponzi scheme. Q Okay. Did you ever meet with him? A I did. Q And did you lie to him? A In the beginning, I did, yes, sir. Q And what lies did you tell him? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726782 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2490 A I told him whatever was necessary to make him believe that the investment was real. Q So it was along the lines of just telling him things to deceive him into believing it was a legitimate investment when it was not? ALL PRESENT: Objection, form. A Correct. BY MR. RABIN: Q Do you have any specific recollection of lies that you told him, other than that general umbrella of "the investment is legitimate"? A Without seeing the email traffic, I would just be guessing, and I do not want to guess. Q Okay. Frank Preve, when Frank Preve first started investing, did you have to lie to him? MR. SCHERER: Object, form. A Early on, I'm certain that I did lie to him early on and then less and less, depending upon the level of his knowledge. But, again, you know, I want to be precise. If I see the email traffic, I'm certain I could be precise about what lies I told him and what were truths, what lies we concocted together and the like; but without that, I would be guessing, and I don't want to muddy the record. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726783 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2491 BY MR. RABIN: Q Wasn't Szafranski the guy that you called a "mushroom"? A No, milk toast. Q Well, milk toast and also, I thought, mushroom. A A couple of times we called him a mushroom. MR. SCHERER: Objection. BY MR. RABIN: Q That's what I thought. And when you called him "mushroom," I think you testified it was because, for lack of a more delicate term, you shit on him and kept him in the dark. MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A It was a conversation between either Frank Preve and I or David Boden and I about him. We said that we kept him in the dark and put shit on him, like a mushroom. BY MR. RABIN: Q And that would be -- I assume that's -- the lay way to express it, is that you lied to him and misled him, right? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A At various points in time I lied to him, and he lied to me. That's what happens in a crime. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726784 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2492 BY MR. RABIN: Q No honor among thieves, is that what you are saying? ALL PRESENT: Objection. A I have got to tell you, even now more so than ever. I knew there was no honor among thieves when I was in the middle of this horrific thing. But in going back and looking at all this over the last two years, I can assure you that there is no honor among thieves at all. BY MR. RABIN: Q Andrew Barnett, he recruited investors for you? A He did. Q And did you lie and mislead him? A I don't think that he was -- that he knew what was going on. Q What do you mean by that? A I don't think that he was involved in the crime. Q Okay. So -- but did you lie and mislead him? A I did to a limited extent. Most of that, he was really recruited by David Boden, and I don't know what Boden told him; but I was always of the impression that he believed things were real. I don't think that United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726785 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2493 Mr. Barnett was involved in the crime. Q Did you ever have any conversations with him? A I talked to him all the time. He was the son of a very dear friend of mine. Q Did you ever have conversations where you pitched the legitimacy of the investment? A I think only as follow-up questions that he had based upon David Boden's pitch to him. Q So, what you're essentially describing is David Boden did most of the lying to him, and you might have just, you know, played clean up? A I think that's a fair statement. MR. RABIN: There was no objection to form on that one? These guys are sleeping. (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the record.) MR. LICHTMAN: Objection to form. BY MR. RABIN: Q Doug Bates, Doug Bates was an attorney who lied to investors, potential investors about referring business to you? A Doug Bates was a lawyer who was involved in a significant amount of illegal activity with me. Q Okay. I'm sorry? A Some of which I can't get into. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726786 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2494 Q Okay. Well -- A You're about to find out. Q -- for what you can get into, though, you described how he lied to investors in order to lead them to believe he was referring you business, correct? A Him and Wayne Koppel, yes. Q Okay. With regard to Mr. Bates, what did you tell him in order to get him to make those misrepresentations? A I just told him I was bringing people in that I needed him to say this to. I didn't -- again, Doug Bates is one of those people that, for lack of a better word -- do you need me to give you a moment? MR. LICHTMAN: I'm going to board your one question. To be sure, the Doug Bates that you're alluding to is a lawyer in Fort Lauderdale, correct? THE WITNESS: A lawyer in Plantation. MR. LICHTMAN: Plantation. Not a Doug Bates that works at Berger Singerman in Miami, right? THE WITNESS: Sorry, Chuck, no, it is not your Doug Bates. MR. SCHERER: I didn't see that on your conflict waiver. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726787 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2495 BY MR. RABIN: Q So Doug Bates, you just essentially said, listen, I need you to lie to these people and tell them that you send me a lot of business; is that it? A Because of things that I cannot discuss that the government will object to, there was no need to get into much deception with Doug Bates to get him to do anything illegal. Q What else was he doing? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection. MR. RABIN: Okay. Just making sure you're aware. BY MR. RABIN: Q Steve Caputi, we talked a lot about Steve Caputi. Ms. Barzee did an excellent job summarizing a lot of the illegal roles he played for you. What was the first thing that he did for you? Do you remember the first thing? A I don't know. I go way back with Steve. Q What kind of story do you have to tell somebody to have them play a fake banker or a fake plaintiff? What did you tell him? A None. You have to understand Steve's history to understand who you were dealing with. It would be like talking to -- knowing you're United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726788 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2496 talking to a member of organized crime -- he wasn't a member of organized crime -- but knowing you're talking to a member of organized crime and knowing you don't have to preface anything with any kind of nonsense to get them to engage in criminal activity or to lessen their knowledge. With Steve, you could let him know everything that was going on. Q With respect to Caputi, is it your testimony, then, that you don't recall having to lie to him in order to get him to play any of those roles? A I certainly may have, but I didn't need to tell Steve much. Steve is the kind of guy, and my friendship with him was such, I could pick up the phone and say, Steve, I need you to play a banker. He wouldn't even ask me why. He would just do it -- Q Okay. A -- you know. All I really needed to say to him, Mr. Rabin was, I'll pay you for it; and he was all good. Q William Cort. A Corte. Q Corte, was one of the -- your computer people, correct? A Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726789 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2497 Q Okay. He set up a fake TD website? A Yes. Q All right. What did you tell him was the reason you needed a fake TD website? A I didn't need to tell him anything. Q So you just said, I need a fake TD website. I need it to look exactly like the real one; and, boom, he did it? A Yes. Q Same thing for the other computer gentleman, Curtis Renie? A Same answer. Q Okay. And you never gave him any reason? A I gave him money. Q Okay. How much did you give each one of them? A I don't recall. Q Was it in cash? A Yes. Q All right. Any witnesses to the payments? A They were actually witnesses to each other's payments, but other than that, I don't think so. Q All right. Wayne Koppel was another lawyer who falsely claimed to -- according to you, had falsely claimed to refer cases to your firm, correct? A My recollection is vague as to whether or not United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726790 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2498 he was the one who sat in the meetings. I seem to believe that he was the one who actually attended the meetings with the hedge fund guys, so yes. Q All right. And what did you tell him in order to get him to play that role? A I didn't have to lie to him at all. I believe that Doug Bates and Russ Adler handled all that. Q So you never made any false statements to him in order to get him to play that role in your scheme? A As I sit here today, other than telling him what I needed him to say, I recall very little about talking to him about anything having to do with this. Russ Adler and Doug Bates handled that. Q All right. Howard Herskowitz was another lawyer that referred -- according to you, falsely claimed to refer significant cases to you? A Not just according to me, it was according to the people that he made the statements to. Q What did you say to him in order to get him to do that? A I didn't say a word to him. I never talked to the man until I got there and he started lying for me. Q All right. And what you -- are you saying you had to tell him nothing in order to get him to do that? A I had Russ Adler handle it. Russ Adler told United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726791 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2499 him exactly what lies he needed to tell, and when he showed up there, he told all the lies. Q So you had no conversations with him in terms of what he was supposed to do; is that your testimony? A I think, if you recall my prior testimony, when I first walked in there, Mr. Herskowitz is the one who said, it's nice to finally meet you, almost giving me a coronary. So, no, I had no prior conversations with him about what he needed to do. That was handled by, to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Adler. Q All right. Steve Rossi was another lawyer that falsely claimed to refer cases, according your testimony, correct? A Yes. Q All right. Did you have the relationship with him or somebody else? A Mr. Adler. Q Okay. So did you have any conversations with him about why he was to falsely verify that he sent cases to your firm? A Through Mr. Adler. Q Were you witness to the conversations? A One of them. Q Tell me about that one conversation. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726792 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2500 A I told Mr. Adler to call Steve Rossi and let him know that I would do whatever I could to help him with his political aspirations in exchange for assisting us, and I was present during that conversation. Q All right. Tracy Weintraub, you have talked about him a number of times as preparing -- you talked about him on a number of cases preparing false financial statements? A Yes. Q What is it that you told him why you need the false financial statements? A I told him here's 575,000; this is what I need. Q And I assume that was cash? A It was. Q I assume there are no witnesses to it, other than you and Mr. Weintraub? A The only person that may be able to verify that was a gentleman who brought me that cash. My recollection is he brought me that cash when I was ready to take it up to him. And I don't know if the government wants me to say the name. MR. LAVECCHIO: Can I have a moment? MR. RABIN: Sure. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726793 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2501 MR. SCHERER: While we have a break, I would like to -- MR. RABIN: We don't have a break. What's going on -- MR. SCHERER: Well, I mean, they're just talking, so -- MR. RABIN: Don't you want to wait until the lawyers are involved can hear what you're saying. MR. SCHERER: I mean, this is administrative. This is administrative. I understand that the Pearson adversary is going -- I don't know -- next, this afternoon or tomorrow? MR. LICHTMAN: No. Levinson starts immediately after lunch. We'll go the rest of the day. And Pearson starts first thing tomorrow and goes until the conclusion, when we stop at 1:00, and then we don't see Scott again. MR. SCHERER: Is it your -- THE WITNESS: Hopefully not ever, not see me again. What kind of comment is that? MR. LICHTMAN: Well, in terms of this United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726794 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2502 deposition. MR. RABIN: We'll see you again. MR. LICHTMAN: In the deposition. MR. SCHERER: Here's my issue: I just now have realized that we're anticipating closing this record for my case; and then you're going to start with Pearson, and it will a separate record. MR. LICHTMAN: When we start with Levinson. MR. SCHERER: When you start with Pearson, you intend to have that as a separate record in your adversary? MR. LICHTMAN: Correct. MR. SCHERER: I'm going to request that when you get to Pearson, that this transcript -- my record stays open, because he's a defendant in this my case so that I'm going to urge the Court that whatever you do in that case is a part of my record. MR. LICHTMAN: I don't have any problem with that, but I will not have time for anybody to be questioning on the time allotted that we have, except for me and for Mr. Pearson's counsel. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726795 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2503 MR. SCHERER: Well -- MR. NURIK: I'm going to ask for five minutes at some time, and the basis for that is because people have not complied with the Court's order, as I articulated yesterday, in providing their exhibits to the parties in advance of this deposition in whole, being that Mr. Rothstein is a party and I represent him, and counsel was supposed to receive it, I was denied the opportunity to have it and Mr. Rothstein was denied the opportunity to see it, and as such, I may have some clean-up questions. I will be brief, and in the process Mr. Rothstein may be reviewing some of the documents that were supposed to have been previously provided to him. And as such, I'm going to ask that the record stay open and I have the opportunity for five minutes. MR. RABIN: I'm going to give it to you if we stop -- MR. NURIK: The problem, Sam, is I'm not in the position to do that because he's still reviewing them. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726796 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2504 I got a load last night of things that my secretary was there very late just putting on a disk, which I have now. So, unfortunately, I'm going to ask that at some point, since the record will remain open, that I find five minutes to do that, and I will be brief. MR. RABIN: Well, you know, again, I don't know. The agreement is the agreement. I don't know about keeping the record open past the time limit set by the judge. Mr. Lichtman may be able to speak to that better than I can. MR. LICHTMAN: When do you think you would be best suited to ask those question? MR. NURIK: Ideally, by the end of the day today, but certainly tomorrow morning, no later than tomorrow morning. I'm not going to have much of a chance beyond that. So I'll try -- endeavor to try to do it by the end of the day. MR. LICHTMAN: I'm going to guess -- I don't know -- that most people don't have an interest in hearing the Levinson testimony. Many people may have some interest in hearing United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726797 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2505 the Pearson testimony. If that's the case, I'm happy to yield five minutes when we begin tomorrow at 8:30 so you can start and ask those questions and I can go into Pearson. MR. NURIK: Okay. MR. RABIN: Thank you. Okay. All right. MR. HERTZBERG: On behalf of Platinum and Centurion, this is Gabriel Hertzberg. We have no objection to what Mr. Lichtman just proposed, that Mr. Nurik borrow five minutes from Mr. Lichtman's time tomorrow. There is a Court order that says that this deposition is closed as of noon today. MR. RASCO: 1:00 today. MR. HERTZBERG: 1:00 today. We have staffed this accordingly. We have set travel plans accordingly. We object to any examination of Mr. Rothstein by anyone, other Mr. Nurik for the five minutes just discussed, tomorrow or at any time after 1:00. MR. SCHLESINGER: We join in that objection. MR. SCHNAPP: On behalf of TD Bank, we United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726798 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2506 also join. MR. MULLIN: Likewise on behalf of the Morses. MR. NURIK: That is other than Mr. Nurik? MR. RABIN: Other than Mr. Nurik. MR. HERTZBERG: Other than Mr. Nurik for the five minutes just discussed, we'd do understand up Mr. Nurik and Mr. Scherer have a common-interest relationship, or so they purport; we would object to any examination of Mr. Rothstein by Mr. Nurik as surrogate for Mr. Scherer or for Mr. Lichtman or for anyone else. MR. NURIK: Well, I can assure you -- I can assure you he's not paying my fees. MR. RABIN: All right. Come on. THE WITNESS: Go ahead, Mr. Rabin. I'll just ignore anybody else. You go ahead and ask me questions. MR. RABIN: Thank you. I appreciate that. BY MR. RABIN: Q Okay. The last -- the question that was pending before the government conferred with you and all, can you get back to it? I don't remember. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726799 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2507 A I can tell you. You were asking me about witnesses -- Q Tracy Weintraub? A -- to money going to Weintraub. Q Well, the last question I recall: Did anybody witness any of the payment of the 75,000? A And my answer is someone witnessed me receiving the money and taking it up to Mr. Weintraub. Q Did anybody witness the payment? A I don't believe this person was standing there when I -- we only got as far as the door. Q Other -- A So no. Q Other than the money that you claim that you gave Mr. Weintraub, was there any other conversation about what you wanted him to do or why? A As to what I wanted him to do? Q Yes. A Extensive conversation. Q Okay. And the why? A The only why that I recall giving him, without seeing the email traffic, is so that he could keep my business and keep the business of Banyan and continue to live well, a nice life. MR. RABIN: All right. If I could have a United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2508 moment, please. I think -- MR. SCHERER: I'm going to object to the question, Sam, unless you can ask the witness to identify who saw him get the cash so he can have a complete answer, since I can't have any more examination. MR. RABIN: I'm happy to ask that question. MR. SCHERER: Thank you. BY MR. RABIN: Q Did you hear Mr. Scherer's question? A I'm sorry, no. Q Who was the person that witnessed you obtain the cash that you claim that you gave to Mr. Weintraub? MR. LAVECCHIO: Objection -- MR. RABIN: So much for your question. MR. SCHERER: Take all the joy out of this. MR. LICHTMAN: That seemed like a perfect way to end the transcript. BY MR. RABIN: Q One other area, just real fast, two questions. You remember the Kroll project you discussed with Ken Jenne? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726801 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2509 A I don't. Q All right. Did Ken Jenne ever propose to you starting a business similar to Kroll's? A Yes. Q And what he -- what -- explain that to us, what he was purposing in that. A We were hiring a lot of retired law enforcement at the time, former ABT agents, FBI agents, IRS agents, and he wanted to put together something to rival Kroll. Q And did that go beyond any discussions? A Other than him and I hiring people to kind of get it started up, no. Q And did Ken Jenne have any role in your illegal activities? A No, sir. Q Other than, perhaps, that one occasion where he carried boxes -- the Epstein boxes into your office that people are claiming that he did? A No, sir. He had no involvement. MR. RABIN: I'm going to cede the balance of my time to Mr. Rasco. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726802 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2510 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RASCO: Q I have three or five minutes, Mr. Rothstein. Is it your opinion or belief that Mr. Preve was aware of the fraud, or do you know it for a fact? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. A Based upon everything that I've seen and know, it is a fact. MR. SCHERER: Withdraw my objection. BY MR. RASCO: Q Based on any witnesses that you can point to that are aware that Mr. Preve knew of the fraud? A Mr. Szafranski. Q Beyond Mr. Szafranski? A Mr. Roden, Mr. Rosenfeldt. Q Is that it? A And me. Q Okay. Do you remember the email we discussed on Monday where you indicated that, Frank, you were ending it; and he suggested that that was not the solution and he urged you to come back and told you not to run. He told you that he had been through something, like, analogous before and asked you to come back. Do you remember that? A Yes, I do. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726803 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2511 Q If he was criminally involved, why would he do that? A You'd have to ask him. Q Okay. And you indicated earlier today that there were literally hundreds of incriminating emails between -- written by Frank; is that right? A I think there were thousands. Q Okay. A I haven't stopped to count them, but there seemed to be an awful lot. Q If he was aware and involved in the crime, why would he write so many emails that were incriminating? ALL PRESENT: Objection to form. A I told Frank on more than one occasion that I thought he was going a little crazy with certain things he was putting in the emails. It never stopped him. You'd have to ask him why he was doing it. It seemed to me like he had some sort of self-destructive mechanism because he put a lot of very bad stuff in emails. BY MR. RASCO: Q Earlier in your testimony you thought Frank was a very smart person. A Extremely. Q If he was so smart, why would he be writing so United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726804 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2512 many incriminating emails? MR. LICHTMAN: Object to form. A I don't know. One thing I have learned over the course of this crime, and since coming back, is that I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with a lot of extremely, extremely bright people who did some very, very stupid things during the commission of a lot of very bad crimes. BY MR. RASCO: Q You met Frank in August of 2007, approximately, right? A I don't recall when I met him. Q Was it mid to late 2007, let's say? A Again, I don't recall the date I met him. All you have got to do is look and see when I started to doing my very first business with George Levin and go back 30 to 60 days. I would have met him in that time frame. We can establish it. It makes no sense to have me guess to it. Q Are you aware that he had known George for 30 years? A I knew that he worked for George many years before. I knew that he left and came back to work for George, yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726805 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2513 Q And are you aware that he was friends with George, not just working with George? A You know, I have, unfortunately, learned that the word "friend" has a very interesting meaning in criminal circles. So, yeah, I believed that he was truly a friend of George's; but the more I examine everything, the more I come to realize he probably took tremendous advantage of George. Q And are you aware that he, himself, invested his own money and his family's money, not just his immediate family's money? A Yes. Q And you knew that he knew that George stood to lose hundreds of millions of dollars if this was a fraud? A Yes, but his ultimate role was the same as all of ours, just the like Morses and other people, that we all hoped to get our money out. The criminals, the people that are involved, always hope to be able to be the ones recouping and, in fact, gaining by the crime. You don't -- even though you know it could explode, you don't necessarily plan on it. MR. RASCO: Okay. Thank you. No further United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726806 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2514 questions. MR. LICHTMAN: Why don't we then consider the transcript closed, except for Mr. Nurik's. examination? MR. SCHERER: And except for my request to keep it open for the Pearson part of your examination and the cross because I may need it in my case. MR. LICHTMAN: Agreed. MR. HERTZBERG: I just want to note on the record that the funds are relying on the Court's order that the deposition -- (Court reporter interruption.) MR. HERTZBERG: The funds are relying on the Court's ordered that the deposition is concluded as of 1:00 p.m. today. The funds will not have representation for any further examination of Mr. Rothstein in reliance on that order. We object to the form of all questions asked by Mr. Nurik and reserve them as such. That's all. Thank you. (Thereupon, at 12:00 a.m., the proceedings were adjourned.) United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726807 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2515 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab4911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726808 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2516 CERTIFICATE THE STATE OF FLORIDA, ) COUNTY OF BROWARD. I, Michele L. Savoy, Shorthand Reporter do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a true record. Dated this 22nd day of December, 2011. Michele L. Savoy, RPR Notary Public - State of Florida My Commission No. EE 113173 Expires August 6, 2015 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726809 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2517 CERTIFICATE THE STATE OF FLORIDA, ) COUNTY OF BROWARD. I, Michele L. Savoy, Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report said deposition in stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from 2345 to 2517, inclusive, are a true and correct transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition. I further certify that I am not an attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel or party connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under the direct control and/or direction of the certifying reporter. Dated this 22nd day of December, 2011. Michele L. Savoy, RPR Notary Public - State of Florida My Commission No. EE 113173 Expires August 6, 2015 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 21a897ab-1911-49aa-8308-21d465585ba5 EFTA02726810