EFTA00009448

Page 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA IN RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR Federal Grand Jury, 07-103 West Palm Beach, Florida February 27, 2007 APPEARANCES: , ESQUIRE Assistant United States Attorney Foreperson TESTIMONY OF • ORIGINAL Cam I (9617 EFTA00009448 ( Page 2 The sworn testimony of 2 was taken before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm 3 Beach Division, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County, 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 State of Florida, on the 27th day of February, 2007. , Court Reporter, was authorized to and did report the sworn testimony. EFTA00009449 Page 3 1 (The witness entered the grand jury room.) 2 3 having been duly sworn by the grand jury foreperson, 4 was examined and testified on her oath as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 By 7 Q Good morning, special agent Could 8 you restate and spell your name for the record. 9 A It'S 10 11 Q Can you remind the grand jury who you are 12 employed by? 13 A The FBI. 14 Q I know that you testified here a few weeks ago. 15 Was there anything from that testimony that you wanted to 16 correct? 17 A I did. I was asked by one of you Mr. Epstein's 18 age, and I confused him with another individual in another 19 one of my cases. His birthdate is January 20, 1953. We 20 are looking at the time period of 2004 and 2005. So 21 Mr. Epstein would have been about 51 or 52-years-old, and 22 I believe I told you he was 45. So at the time we're 23 looking during this investigation, he is 51 or 52. 24 Q Agent how did this case first come 25 to the attention of the police? Co-h f01, 13 EFTA00009450 Page 4 1 A In March of 2005, our youngest 2 3 4 5 the town of Palm Beach. 6 7 A 8 9 identity, correct? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A lives in the 21 area here in Palm Beach County. 22 Q At the time, in 2005, what school was she 23 attending? 24 A 25 Q What year was she in school? identified victim -- her called the Palm Beach police department and reported that she believed that her stepdaughter had been molested by a male that resided in So today we are going to talk about IP Yes. And we are using her initial to protect her A Yes. Q Can you tell the grand jury III date of birth? A birthday is Q And you mentioned that the call came in from in March of 2005, correct? A Yes. Q So how old was at that time? A She was 14. Q Where does live? ( EFTA00009451 Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 1.1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A She was a ninth-grader there. Q You mentioned that her called the Palm Beach police department. What did the police department do in response to that call? A They wanted to interview the next day they went out to where school at that time, which I think was . I believe it was was attending . They interviewed at and wanted to get her side of what took place. Q Because we'll be referring to this throughout, what was the name of the detective who conducted that first interview? A Detective= So in March of 2005, detective talked with . Was ever interviewed at any other times? A Yes. She was interviewed -- they talked to her again. She placed some controlled calls for them later that month, we will talk about that later. As well as she was interviewed about a year later in July of 2006. Not interviewed, but she testified before the grand jury for the State of Florida. So she was interviewed by detective in March of 2005, and then about a year or three or four months later, in July of 2006, she testified before a grand jury with the State of Florida. 25 Q In preparation for your appearance today, did (Ertl (06(3 EFTA00009452 1 you have a chance to interview ? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q And when was that? 4 A Last night. s Q Back in March of 2005, you mentioned that 6 detective met with on or more than one 7 occasion? 8 A Yes. 9 Q If you could give us sort of an overview of what 10 reported during these interviews, and then if there 11 are specific discrepancies or differences, we will return 12 to those later. 13 A All right. On February 5, 2005, it was a 14 Saturday, and I. was at house, I. She 15 was there with her boyfriend, I. And because these 16 are minors, we'll refer to them without using their last 17 names, so I'll use those initials. 18 They were at residence, and I. is 19 boyfriend, which is also cousin. So they 20 were all at house, and was on the phone with 21 an individual that refers to as the assistant. 22 described the assistant as a tall blonde. 23 So throughout I'll refer to her as the blonde lady, if 24 that's okay. was unable to recall her name. So 25 is on the phone with the assistant for Jeffrey Page 61i EFTA00009453 1 Page 7 1 Epstein. 2 and overhear on the phone 3 describing describing to the lady on 4 the phone. So when gets off the phone, and 5 both want to know why was being described to 6 this lady on the phone. becomes upset when 7 asks if she would like to go to Palm Beach and give a 8 man a massage that she knows. agrees, and this 9 upsets , and an argument ensues where and 10 go into the bathroom and they argue outside the presence 11 of 12 Q Let me stop you there. Was supposed to be 13 paid for giving this massage? 14 A Yes. told that she would be paid 15 $200 or $300, I believe. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 have known what was doing for this man and the work 23 that did for Mr. Epstein, and that is why was 24 so upset. 25 0 So knew that this wasn't just a regular You mentioned that is , and is also correct? A Yes. Q What was idea about why they were arguing? A She has told us that she believed that must CArei ( (3 EFTA00009454 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 8 massage that was going to take place? A Yes. Q So and have this argument. What does decide to do? A decides to go. Q Because she wanted to make the $200 or $300? A Yes. Q So tell us then what happened after that meeting? A The next day, February 6 -- they discussed that evening about going the next day. We do have on phone records two calls that were placed. One was placed to cell phone, and the other was placed to Jeffrey Epstein's residence the night of February 5. The next day is contacted a couple of times before arrives. Each time prior to being contacted by a call is placed by to cell phone. , I should tell you, is Jeffrey's assistant. So on Sunday a call was placed to and then shortly after that a call was made to . That same series occurs again, but this time places a call to Mr. Epstein's residence, and then is called again. Eventually, comes to residence with EFTA00009455 Page 9 1 another girl in the car, I* So the two of them 2 arrive at residence, and they continue over to 3 Mr. Epstein's house. 4 Q is driving with and . Do you 5 know how they were sitting? 6 A You know, I'm not sure how they were sitting, 7 but I know that it was a pickup truck that drove, 8 and was the driver. I'm not sure exactly the 9 placement of the other two girls, but they were in the 10 truck. 11 Q And was able to describe how they travelled 12 to the island of Palm Beach? 13 A Yes. She gave directions -- you know, the best 14 that she could on how she was able to come to 15 Mr. Epstein's residence. 16 Q Once they arrived at the residence, what 17 happened? 18 A I should have mentioned that either the night 19 before or the day of, there were some things that 20 tells . One, she tells that she is to tell, if 21 asked, that she is 18-years-of-age, that she attends high 22 school, that she's in the 12th grade, and I believe it was 23 that she was to say that she went 24 to. 25 Talking to ■ last night, told us that Celt-) (l b 13 EFTA00009456 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 10 once she arrived at the residence tells her that she may possibly be asked to take her clothes off. She also tells her that she can stay in her bra, but she may be asked to take her clothes off. And told us last night that that's when she knew for the first time that she might have to possibly remove her clothes. At this point they proceed to enter the residence. describes him as a security person. He approached and asked what they were doing there, and said they were there to see Mr. Epstein, or see Jeffrey. He allowed them entry into the kitchen area by the pool, and describes that area. So now and are all sitting in the kitchen. A short time goes by and Mr. Epstein, as well as the assistant, enter the kitchen. Q And I know that you mentioned that did not know the name of the lady who was there in the kitchen, correct? A Right. Q She just described her as a blonde, tall lady? A Yes. Q Was also interviewed about what happened that day? A She was interviewed by the Palm Beach police department. EFTA00009457 Page 11 1 Q Did IM identify the person who was on the 2 phone with her as IIIII 3 A Yes, she did. So even though IIII doesn't know her name, IIIII 5 knew name? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So you mentioned that the three girls are in the 8 kitchen, along with Jeffrey and the person calls the 9 blonde lady? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What happened then? 12 A follows the blonde lady upstairs to 13 Mr. Epstein's bedroom. The blonde lady proceeds to take la out a massage table and set it up, prepare it. She also 15 takes out some lotions to be used during the massage. 16 told me last night that the blonde lady asked her to 17 remove her clothing, and then left the room and said that 18 Mr. Epstein would be in shortly. 19 Q What happened after she left the room? 20 A Shortly after that, Mr. Epstein does come into 21 the room and shakes hand. told us last night 22 that Mr. Epstein told her to remove her clothing. He 23 leaves the room and comes back in just a towel, and he 24 tells her again to -- she is at that point -- when he 25 walked in the first time she had on her bra and her pants. ct 3 EFTA00009458 Page 12 When he comes back in, he tells her that she needs to take 2 her pants off. So she took her pants off. So now she's 3 4 Q At some point did tell any of the people who interviewed her what was running through her mind? 6 A She stated at one point that she was upstairs 7 with him, with the man, and that was downstairs. I 8 guess she says, "What could do? She's downstairs, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 laying on the table, he has a towel covering his bottom, 24 and she is straddling him with her bottom touching the 25 towel and some skin touching his lower back. She was kind in her bra and underwear. I'm upstairs." So she did what she was asked to do. Q So now you mention that Mr. Epstein is here wearing just a towel, and has removed both her shirt and her pants, is that correct? A Yes. Q Tell us what happens then? A Mr. Epstein gets on the massage table lying on his stomach and instructs how to do the massage. He tells her to put some lotion on her hand and instructs her on how to actually perform the massage. At one point during the massage he tells that she would be more comfortable to get on top of him, so gets on top of him and straddles Mr. Epstein's back. The way describes it is Mr. Epstein is EFTA00009459 I 1 Page 13 of sitting -- it sounds like sitting on his rear end, but 2 with part of her skin touching him -- the front of him, 3 but he had a towel across his bottom. 4 Q What happens as she is providing the massage to 5 his back? 6 A The massage goes on. She said the entire 7 massage lasted anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes. At one 8 point Mr. Epstein excuses himself for a few minutes, one 9 or two minutes briefly. states that she can hear 10 Mr. Epstein , and states that she 11 believes he was, in her words, 12 She didn't say she said . 13 I am going to use that she believes he was 14 15 Then he returns. At this point he gets back on 16 the table lying on his back and asks her to start 17 massaging his chest. So she begins to massage his chest. 18 Q Does he keep the towel on? 19 A No, at this point the towel is removed. when he 20 comes back and he gets back on the table, the towel is 21 removed and she is massaging his chest. 22 Q What does he do as she is massaging his chest? 23 A He . So he 24 on the table. He asked , at 25 some point during this time, if she would like to make an EFTA00009460 Page 14 1 extra $100. He tells her that it would not involve doing 2 a massage. IM agrees. He asked her if he could 3 and she does agree. describes it as o a 5 said this goes on for about ten minutes. 6 At some point during that massage 8 9 10 11 and she describes hinIMMM Q What did she say happened when Mr. Epstein IMMMEB A The . At some point he does 12 . And these are her words. She 13 looks at him kind of funny, and he sarcastically -- which 14 is her word -- he sarcastically says, 'What's the matter?" 15 And she at that point just kind of looks away, and he 16 continues on with . In the last 17 three to four minutes of that, he 18 19 At the conclusion of the sexual activity, 20 Mr. Epstein was 21 asked if She 22 but saw him 23 Q Was able to provide a physical description 24 of Mr. Epstein? 25 A Yes. EFTA00009461 Page 15 1 Q Including of ? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Was she also able to provide a description of 4 her surroundings in that massage area? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was that description accurate? 7 A Yes. According to other testimony we have 8 gotten from other victims, yes. 9 Q And a search was performed on Mr. Epstein's 10 house? 11 A Yes. The Palm Beach police department did 12 perform a search, and several of the items that were 13 described were found in the house. 14 Q After Mr. Epstein what 15 happened? 16 A He told that she was getting the extra 17 hundred dollars because he was allowed 18 . The massage had been 19 concluded, the sexual activity had been concluded. He 20 gets up and leaves for a brief moment of time and comes 21 back with $300 and pays the $300. I believe he told 22 that she could see herself out. 23 Q Before we leave that room, when was either 24 being directed to the room or was inside that room where 25 the massage took place, was there anything in particular Ceerti, I 0-6 EFTA00009462 Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that she noted seeing? A She noted seeing several naked pictures of girls in the room, a mural or pictures of naked girls either exposing their breasts or completely naked. Q While the massage was going on, did Mr. Epstein talk to A Yes, he did. Q And did he talk about sexual conquests with girls? A Yes, he did. Q Once Mr. Epstein has provided with the $300, what did she do? A She went back downstairs and she, and leave the residence. In the car they ask how much money she has made, and she tells them $300. wants to see the money. She shows the money to , and asks what did she do. At that point tells her that he Q When they left the house, where did they go? A When they left the house, they were on their way to a mall to go shopping with the money that they had received from Mr. Epstein. had told the night before that she needed some shoes and wanted to go to the mall, and she was going to Mr. Epstein's to pick up some money. That was another reason that she had for going to EFTA00009463 Page 17 1 Mr. Epstein's house that day, and that they were going to 2 go shopping after she got her money, and that MI could 3 make some money. 4 Q During that ride, did realize that ME 5 received money from Mr. Epstein? 6 A Yes. At some point knows that 7 received $200, but is unsure that ever gave a 8 massage. So at that particular time did not know why 9 she had gotten the S200, because she didn't think that 3.0 had had time to give a massage. 11 interview, did she explain what:she 12 got the $200 for? 13 A told the Palm Beach police department in 14 her interview that she received her $200 for bringing 15 to the house. 16 Q You mentioned that there were these three 17 different time periods that was interviewed: Shortly 18 after the events, at the time of the state grand jury 19 proceedings, and when you met with her, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And there were some discrepancies between the 22 different interviews. Can you explain some of those to 23 the grand jury. 24 A Before we go and get to that, I want to make 25 sure that -- when we discussed what was told in the e.er-72-t, (rat -3 EFTA00009464 Page 18 1 car byllill, that we learned from ME interview with 2 the Palm Beach police department. So I don't know if I 3 said that, but I want to make sure you know that we first 4 learned that= by listening to the interview that was conducted between the Palm Beach police 6 department andillill, not fromilill. When I talk later, I just want to make sure you realize that that had not 8 initially come out in interview, but through the 9 interview with 10 So going back. I'm sorry, discrepancies? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I met with last night to discuss some of 13 the discrepancies when looking at what she had talked to 14 detective about in March of 2005 and what she had 15 testified to in the grand jury in July of 2006. Reading 16 the testimony and listening to the tapes, or reading the. 17 transcript, there were a few discrepancies. 18 One of the first ones we talked about was what 19 had told her about going to Mr. Epstein's house. 20 She tells detective that she was told about the 21 massage, told about getting $200, but that she was not 22 told that she would have to take her clothes off. She 23 didn't know she would have to perform the massage naked. 24 when I asked her last night that question, she 25 told me that when she got to the house prior to going into alaNCI2WINCII EFTA00009465 Page 19 1 Mr. Epstein's residence, that I= did tell her that she 2 may be asked to take off her clothes. She also did state 3 that told her she could stay in her bra. 4 So I wanted you to know that there was a 5 discrepancy in what she originally had told detective 6 MI and what she told me last night. That would be one. 7 The second discrepancy i wanted to touch on with 8 her was going upstairs and taking off her clothing. When 9 she is in that room, she states to detective that 10 asked her to remove her clothing, and she took off 11 her shirt. Then Mr. Epstein came in the room, shook her 12 hand and told her to take off her clothes. He leaves, he 13 comes back in a towel. He tells her again. tells 14 detective in a stern voice, 'Mr. Epstein told me to 15 take off my pants." Because she hadn't taken off her 16 pants from the first time that she met him. 17 In her testimony with the grand jury with the 18 state, she tells the grand jury that it was who 19 asked her to remove her clothing. So last night we went 20 over with her who told her to remove what. She had a very 21 hard time recalling exactly. She knew she had gotten down 22 to her bra and underwear. And then at some point, when 23 we're going through the sexual activity, she actually 24 tells me that her underwear was off when he was 25 &API") N't O EFTA00009466 1. Page 20 Later in the interview, we tell her about what 2 we have in her testimony to the grand jury and her 3 statements made to detective And she really is 4 having a difficult time trying to remember who told her to 5 take off her clothes and her pants. As we are walking 6 through the sexual activity, she does recall and states. 7 that it was Mr. Epstein who told. her to take off her 8 pants. 9 I guess I'll go to the third discrepancy. Is 10 there anything I left off with that? 11 Q Well, does she report that when the assistant 12 leads -- or the blonde lady leads her upstairs, that the 13 blonde lady also said, "Get undressed," but that 14 didn't get fully undressed? 15 A That's what she said in her statement to the 16 detective, when she gives her first statement. She tells 17 us again last night that that's what she recalled. 18 Q That the lady said first, "Get undressed," but 19 she doesn't get fully undressed. And when Jeffrey comes 20 back, he said, "Take your pants off."? 21 A Yes. And again, like I said, when we started 22 interviewing her and asking her about this, she did have a 23 hard time. But when we were walking through the sexual 24 activity, that's when she recalls who told her to take off 25 her pants. EFTA00009467 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 21 And I'll tell you, when we talked about the sexual activity, and it comes out that she wasn't wearing her underwear when , she does not recall how they came off. She cannot remember removing her underwear. She doesn't remember if Mr. Epstein removed her underwear. She knows her underwear was off, but she cannot tell you exactly at what point her underwear was removed. Q Let's talk about the third discrepancy. A The third is the sexual activity, when she was originally interviewed by detective about the When detective comes and sees her again a few weeks later, she does tell her at that time that She also says that to the grand jury, she talks about the Last night she told us about When we asked her about hiM and that had told the police department that she told us last night that she by Mr. Epstein, but that she thought only her and knew about this and that she did not want her father to know that She didn't want anybody to know, but she especially didn't 25 want her father to know, that that was her business. That C-c-yit? 66( 3 EFTA00009468 Page 22 she did not know that had told anybody, she thought 2 it was only her and that knew. She was embarrassed 3 and didn't want anybody to know that. 4 Q Did she become visually upset? 5 A Yes, she began crying when we asked her about 6 . when she realized that we 7 knew about that, she became very upset and concerned about 8 her father. She mentioned that her father has read a lot 9 of the reports in the State of Florida, and has followed 10 the state's case. She was concerned about even telling 11 us, afraid that he would be able to read in our reports 12 about this. 13 We explained to her that the FBI's reporting is 14 a little bit different than the way the state -- those are 15 public records, and ours is part of our case file. 16 Q In addition to the fact that she had these 17 concerns about her father and she was embarrassed, in your 18 experience of interviewing victims of sexual abuse, is it 19 typical for them to not disclose all of the sexual 20 activity? 21 A Yes, it's very typical. And young girls, they 22 don't want to talk about it. This is just another case of 23 her not wanting to tell exactly what took place. 24 Q After that first visit to Mr. Epstein's house, 25 and the interviews with detective , did detective EFTA00009469 Page 25 1 Q On April 1, the following day, did illilmake 2 calls to 3 A From the Palm Beach police department, they were 4 able to take voice mail messages left by Mon 5 phone stating that could come and work on Saturday 6 around 11:00. 7 Q I think you mentioned this 'last time, but in 8 case you didn't, did the Palm Beach police department do 9 trash pulls at Mr. Epstein's house? 10 A Yes, they did. 11 Q Was there anything of value related to this 12 series of calls that were recovered? 13 A Yes. There was a trash pull done in the 14 beginning of April, and in the trash there was a piece of 15 paper that on it had name, name, and I 16 believe it was 10:30 listed on the piece of paper. 17 Q It said with on Saturday at 10:30? 18 A Yes, it did. 19 Q In addition to the actual recordings of those 20 phone calls and voice mail messages, do you also have 21 telephone records from both cell phone and 22 cell phone that match up? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Just to go back to something that you mentioned. 25 Who actually gave the $300 cash to at the day she was („9-21 iqt) EFTA00009470 1 Page 26 1 at Mr. Epstein's house? 2 A Mr. Epstein. 3 Q You mentioned a girl named 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was also interviewed? 6 A Yes, she was. 7 Q Was she asked about going With to take 8 girls to Mr. Epstein's house? 9 A Yes. 10 0 Was she asked who the youngest-looking girl was? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What did she say? 13 A She discussed looking young in her 14 interview with the Palm Beach police department. 15 Those are all of my questions 16 for you now. If you could please step outside, I'll 17 see if the grand jurors have any. 18 (Witness excused, and then returned.) 19 BY■ 20 Q Agent , we have just a few questions. 21 One relates to the conversation between Mr. Epstein and 22 about his exploits with other girls. Did Mr. Epstein 23 say anything about the age of those girls? 24 A He said that -- in particular on one case he 25 talked about a young girl that he was in the back seat EFTA00009471 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 23 NM ask MI to make what are called controlled calls? A Yes. Q Can you explain to the grand jury what a controlled call is? A A controlled call is where we actually have a listening device, where we have an individual place a call to somebody and we are able to record the other person's voice and the conversation that takes place between the person that we're having make the call and the person that they are calling. Q Who did detective ask to call? A was asked to call on the phone. Q And did she do so? A Yes, she did. Q Can you tell the grand jury when the calls were? A I believe the first call was made towards the end of March, I believe it was March 30. called at the Olive Garden where works. was concerned that father had found out somehow and that they knew about it. And she refers to him as Jeffrey, but Mr. Epstein. told her that they did not know about Mr. Epstein. Later in the conversation tells her that Mr. Epstein would like her to come back and work for him, and that maybe she could work for him tomorrow. So koly3 EFTA00009472 Page 24 1 they agreed that there would be a call between and 2 tomorrow, that will call tomorrow. 3 Q were there calls also made on March 31 of 2006? 4 A There were two calls made on March 31. The 5 first one she doesn't connect to . The second call 6 that was made a short time later, answers the phone. 7 Again, there is a discussion about coming to work for 8 Mr. Epstein. tells -- one of the comments that 9 is made is, "The more you do, the more you make." is 10 asking her how much can I make. 11 Again, detective is there, and is 12 , how much can I make. asking is telling 13 that she'll have to ask Mr. Epstein that, that she is 14 going to see Mr. Epstein tomorrow and that she'll talk to 15 Mr. Epstein. There is conversation about and her 16 twin sister possibly coming to Mr. Epstein's house. There 17 is some discussion about her coming to work for 18 Mr. Epstein. 19 Q Just so it's clear, because there were a lot of 20 shes, is telling that is going to see 21 Epstein the following day? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that is going to set up a schedule 24 with Mr. Epstein for and her sister to work for him? 25 A Yes. EFTA00009473 Page 27 1 with, and her parents were in the front seat. He told 2 that they were having sex in the back seat were 3 doing sexual things in the back seat while he was carrying 4 on a conversation with the parents in the front seat. I 5 guess they were on their way home from a business party. 6 This was one of the stories that he had talked about. 7 Q But at no time did he provide any specific ages 8 about any of those girls? 9 A No. 10 Q what was age at the time she took 11 to Mr. Epstein's house? 12 A She was 18. 13 Q Did Mr. Epstein ask anything about her age? 14 A He did. He asked her how old she was, she said 15 she was 18. He asked her what grade she was in, she said 16 she was in the 12th grade. He asked her where she went to 17 school, and she said she went to 18 Q I know we will be doing a lot more discussion 19 about later. But could you tell us briefly how 20 was recruited to go to Mr. Epstein's house? 21 A was at the beach, and two individuals 22 approached her about making money and giving a massage to 23 Mr. Epstein. 24 Q How old was 25 Mr. Epstein's house? when she first went to EFTA00009474 Page 28 1 A Through phone records, we have contact between 2 and starting at age 17. 3 : Those are all the questions. 4 Thank you. (Witness excused, and then returned.) BY 7 Q The question was, was there any particular evidence to suggest that Mr. Epstein knew that was 9 under the age of 18? 10 A I would say through the interviews of the 11 multiple girls that went to Mr. Epstein's house -- the way 12 that having seen last night, and now she's 16 -- this 13 was two years ago -- that age and behavior -- and 14 again, is that more circumstantial evidence? As far as 15 concrete evidence, no. But just by her appearance and her 16. mannerisms and how I observed her last night at age 16. 17 Q And that's consistent with what said 18 during her statement; correct? 19 A Yes, it is. 20 MS. : Any other questions? 21 JUROR: Did she look 18? 22 THE WITNESS: Does look 18? Not in my 23 opinion, sir. 24 MS. : All right. Any other questions? 25 Okay, thank you, very much. EFTA00009475 Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Witness excused.) CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER I CERTIFY pages 1 to 28 is a true transcript of my shorthand notes of the testimony of before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm Beach, Florida, on the 27th day of February, 2007. Dated at West Palm Beach, Florida this 18th day of March, 2007. Philip W. May, Court Reporter Urriit9g(7 EFTA00009476 r ( ( EFTA00009477