DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 1, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00061431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00061432 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 : My name is 2 and I am a Senior Special Agent with 3 the Department of Justice Office of the 4 Inspector General, New York Field Office. And 5 these are my credentials. This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons Lieutenant 7 is being conducted as part of an 8 official U.S. Department of Justice Office of 9 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 10 date is September 1, 2021 and the time is 12:22 11 p.m. This interview is being conducted at the 12 Metropolitan Correctional Center located in New 13 York, New York. Also present is DOJ OIG 14 Special Agent This interview 15 will be recorded by me, SSA 16 Could everyone please identify themselves for 17 the record and spell your last name. To start, 18 again, I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 19 20 : This is DOJ OIG Special Agent 21 . And these are my 22 credentials. 23 : And then can you say your 24 last name, Ma'am? 25 EFTA00061433 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Thank you. This is an 3 official DOJ OIG investigation into the death 4 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 5 circumstances and you're being asked to 6 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 7 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 8 the DOJ OIG? 9 : Yes. 10 : Thank you. So we have 11 the Warnings and Assurances to Employee 12 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 13 Basis. Sorry. You are being asked to provide 14 information as part of an investigation being 15 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 16 General. This investigation is being conducted 17 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 18 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 19 performance failure and security failure. This 20 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 21 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 22 action will be taken against you if you choose 23 not to answer questions. Any statement you 24 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 25 criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary EFTA00061434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 proceeding or both. And there's a waiver 2 section. It says, I understand the Warnings 3 and Assurances stated above and I am willing to 4 make a statement and answer questions. No 5 promises or threats have been made to me and no 6 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 7 against me. This is the form if you want to 8 take a look and read it. If you agree, there's 9 a place where you can sign for employee 10 signature. 11 : You want employee you 12 said? 13 : Yeah, the employee 14 signature. 15 : Print your name below that. 16 : Thank you very much for 17 signing and printing your name. I appreciate 18 that. I'm going to put in the date. Again it 19 is September 1, 2021 and the time is now 12:25 20 p.m. And I am signing as the OIG Special Agent 21 and printing my name. 22 : This is Special Agent 23 I'm signing as a witness. 24 : And you just fill out the 25 rest and say place for MCC. Yeah. All right. EFTA00061435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 2 3 4 5 And did you understand the form that you were just provided? Yes. All right. Great. Thank you. Before starting the interview, I'd like to place you under oath. Lieutenant 7 , can you please raise your right hand. 8 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 9 the truth during this interview? 10 : Yes. 11 : Thank you. Okay. What is 12 your current position with the BOP? 13 : I'm a Lieutenant. 14 : Okay. Were you 15 previously interviewed on this investigation on 16 August 14, 2019, and again by myself and 17 Special Agent on June 14, 2021. 18 : I don't remember the 19 dates, but I have been previously interviewed. 20 : Okay. Great. Thank you. 21 And earlier this summer by the two of us, 22 correct? 23 : Yes. 24 : Great. When reviewing 25 your transcript from June 14, 2021, some of EFTA00061436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 your answers were a little unclear and we are 2 here today in hope that we can clear up some of 3 those answers. Is it correct that you worked 4 on August 10th, morning watch shift, at the MCC 5 starting on August 9, 2019 at 10:00 p.m. 6 through August 10, 2019 when you were relieved 7 by oncoming lieutenant at approximately 5:30 8 a.m.? Here's the Friday, August 9th and 9 Saturday August 10th are the daily assignment 10 rosters. And this is - the dates that we're 11 talking about is the day before Epstein was 12 discovered and the day Epstein was discovered. 13 So the Friday and Saturday. 14 : According to the 15 roster, I worked the morning watch shift on 16 Friday August 9th and Saturday August 10th. 17 : And at that time, is it 18 correct that the morning watch shift actually 19 started the night two hours prior to what the 20 schedule says. You would actually have started 21 at 10:00 p.m. instead of midnight. 22 : Those were the times 23 that we relieved each other. Yes. 24 : Okay. So in this case, 25 so it's specifically talking about your August EFTA00061437 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 10th shift. Would have you started on August 2 9th at 10:00 p.m. and that shift would have 3 ended a little before 6:00 a.m. on August 10th? 4 : Yes. It just depends 5 on what time we're relieved. 6 : Right. 7 : Yeah. 8 : Okay. Now you mentioned 9 to us, but is it true on August 10, 2019, you 10 stayed later than 5:30 a.m.? 11 : Yes. 12 : Okay. Do you recall when 13 you left the MCC on August 10, 2019? 14 : No, I don't. 15 : Okay. So in your 16 interview in June 2021, you noted that you had 17 heard about Epstein's medical emergency around 18 7:00 a.m. and went up to help with feeding. Do 19 you recall what you would have been doing from 20 approximately 5:30 a.m. until 7:00 a.m.? 21 : Yeah, I was finishing 22 up my paperwork. 23 : Paperwork? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. EFTA00061438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yep, from the 2 previous shift, yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : I was finishing up 5 paperwork. 6 : And what kind of 7 paperwork do you finish up before you leave? 8 : We have various 9 paperwork. I don't - I can't remember that 10 night if I had had an incident and was still 11 working on 583 packets. But we had like a 12 report that we had to do every night. I still 13 -. I don't remember exactly what I was doing, 14 but I don't know if I was doing the -. I 15 forgot what it's called now. But it's a - like 16 a report that we do of what happens throughout 17 the day -. 18 : The lieutenant log? 19 : That's the count and 20 stuff like that included. It's like a little 21 daily news type thing report. 22 : Is that the lieutenant 23 log? 24 : It's not the 25 lieutenant's log. But I could have been making EFTA00061439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 entries into the lieutenant's log as well. 2 : The daily activity 3 report? 4 : The daily activity 5 report. Yes. 6 : Okay. So it's the daily 7 activity report that - at least with ours, we 8 always get it - that goes along with the 9 lieutenant log. 10 : Yeah, the daily 11 activity report, the log. I might have been 12 still doing changes in the roster at the last 13 minute. Things to that effect. 14 : Okay. And do you recall 15 what time you were in the SHU helping with 16 feeding? Was this after Epstein's emergency? 17 : It was after. 18 : Right. Do you recall for 19 approximately for how long? You said you went 20 up there around 7:00 a.m. to help with the 21 feeding. Do you recall how long you were 22 there? 23 : I'm not sure how long 24 I was up there because there were no other 25 staff members there. And as other staff EFTA00061440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 members came, it was us - I said I'm going to 2 go because they had additional staff. The only 3 reason why I even stayed up there feeding was 4 to ensure everything was - the feeding was 5 taken care of. Because they didn't have any 6 additional staff up there. 7 : Okay. 8 : And I don't know what 9 time additional staff came. I wasn't even 10 really looking at the clock that day. Someone 11 needed to be up there. So I just stayed until 12 they got additional staff up there. 13 : Do you remember who was 14 there with you when you were feeding? 15 : I think was 16 the only person that was there at the time. 17 : Was there as well? 18 was there. B1 t- 19 wasn't feeding. 20 : Okay. 21 was feeding 22 because I want to say it was just them two 23 there. 24 : Okay. 25 : So was EFTA00061441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 downrange feeding by himself. So I went 2 downrange and assisted him with feeding. 3 : You say the two of you 4 were feeding together? 5 : Me and 6 : Uh-huh. 7 : Yes, I believe it was 8 9 : Okay. So it wasn't that 10 you fed on one range and he fed on another? 11 You were actually feeding together when you 12 were there? 13 : No, we was feeing 14 together because there's only - we only got the 15 two sets of keys. 16 : Okay. 17 : So yeah, we was just 18 - we was on the same range. 19 : Okay. And do you recall 20 what time you left the SHU though? When you 21 were getting relieved? 22 : I don't recall. I 23 don't know what time it was. 24 : Would have it been right 25 after feeding? Or do you remember if you EFTA00061442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 stayed there that long? 2 : I don't think it was 3 -. It wasn't right after. It wasn't 4 immediately after feeding because like I said, 5 there was nobody there. So and then 6 eventually - she eventually left. I think by 7 the time we were finishing up feedings there at 8 some point I think she left. And a couple of 9 staff came. And then some of them ended up 10 having other things to do because we were so 11 shorthanded. 12 : Sure. 13 : During that time that 14 there was just nobody. We didn't' have any 15 bodies. 16 : Sure. Do you remember 17 though, putting yourself back into that day, do 18 you remember what you would have done after the 19 feeding? 20 : I don't remember what 21 I did. If I wasn't finished with what I was 22 doing, I finished that up and I'm sure I went 23 home. 24 : No-no-no. I'm sorry. 25 When you were in the SHU. Do you remember -? EFTA00061443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 I'm talking specifically about the SHU right 2 now. After the feeding was done, you and 3 were done. Do you remember if you did 4 any other tasks or anything while you were in 5 the SHU? 6 : I don't remember if 7 . I don't remember. I don't remember doing 8 anything else because we fed and then you go 9 the grace point where you're waiting to see - 10 waiting for the inmates to finish so you can 11 get the things from them. But no. No. 12 Nothing in particular comes to mind from like 13 that. 14 : Okay. 15 : You mentioned you would have 16 finished up whatever you were - that you didn't 17 get a chance to complete. What was it that 18 you're talking about? You said that after the 19 feeding, you would have finished up whatever 20 else that you couldn't get a chance to 21 complete. You would have finished up -. 22 : Right. Like if I had 23 - if there was work that I still needed - 24 paperwork that I still needed to get done or do 25 or something like that for my shift. I would EFTA00061444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 have finished that up if that was still due. I 2 don't even know if I even -. I don't 3 don't know if I came and got my stuff and left 4 or if I finished doing the paperwork. I don't 5 know in what order I did that. 6 : Okay. So from our end, 7 we had to review like all the emails and stuff 8 you know for everybody. And see what was going 9 on especially with the daily activities - what 10 we just talked about - the daily activities 11 report and with the lieutenant's log. So this 12 is the email that you sent out. I guess this 13 is what you - maybe you were working on. The 14 daily activity report. 15 : Okay. 16 : As well as the 17 lieutenant's log that was attached. This was 18 sent out at 9:26 a.m. on August 10th. 19 : Okay. 20 : So do you believe that 21 may have been what you were working on? 22 : Like I said, like I 23 said previously, if I was - if I had additional 24 paperwork to do, it was the daily log and 25 probably my lieutenant log or something to that EFTA00061445 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 effect. I don't Because I can't remember 2 if I had a 583 packet that I was working on. 3 : Okay. And then what time 4 are these emails with the daily activity report 5 and lieutenant's log. What time are they 6 typically sent out in the mornings? 7 : Whenever we finish 8 them. I mean we try and have them done before 9 the end of our shift. But at that particular 10 time because we didn't have any bodies. And 11 everything took longer. There were times when 12 - sometimes you had things that you didn't 13 expect. Or rounds or something like that took 14 longer. Hiring overtime or something like that 15 took longer. That everything didn't get done. 16 : Okay. 17 : And plus, you know, 18 when you're making rounds -. We were so short 19 and officers were doing so many - officers were 20 being mandated every day during that time. And 21 they have been being mandated every day - five 22 days a week - for months by then. That the 23 officers, you know, they were so tired and 24 exhausted that you spent an additional amount 25 of time talking to them and making sure that EFTA00061446 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 they were okay. So everything just ran on. 2 : Okay. So the part - the 3 reason why we're asking is we have - we looked 4 at all the other lieutenant logs that were - 5 this is stapled - sorry. So here, we looked, 6 you know leading up to it. So here's the one 7 you sent from Tuesday, August 6th. It was sent 8 out at 5:16 a.m. And you sent one out of 9 Wednesday, August 7th at 5:03 a.m. You weren't 10 - we didn't' find Thursday's but then you sent 11 one out on Friday, August 9th at 5:11 a.m. So 12 this one is Saturday. This one was at 9:26 13 a.m. And then Sunday's was sent out at 6:15 14 a.m. And then Monday's August 12th, again at 15 6:30 a.m. So just does this help you recall 16 what could have possibly been happening? I 17 know you said you went up at 7:00 a.m. to help 18 with the feeding. So do you know what you 19 would have been doing up until that 7:00 a.m. 20 hour? Being that all these were sent out, you 21 know, anywhere from as early as 5:00 a.m. to as 22 late as, you know, 6:30, 6:30 something a.m. 23 : I'm sure I was still 24 working. 25 : Or 6:36 a.m. EFTA00061447 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 : Whatever I was doing, 2 it was pertaining to work. I wasn't sitting 3 here. When I got relieved, if all of my stuff 4 was done, I would have left the building. That 5 would have been no reason for me to be here. 6 : Sure. 7 : And I wouldn't' have 8 wanted to be here. 9 : Mm-hm. 10 : So I was working on 11 work that I needed to complete during that 12 time. 13 : So what other - other 14 than the activities log and lieutenant log, 15 what were the other things you said that you 16 would be doing? 17 : I mean I don't know 18 specifically what I would have been doing on 19 that day. Or I don't even recall everything 20 that happened during the course of that day. 21 You know to even sit here and try and - 22 : Sure. 23 : Conjure up an answer 24 for you to tell you, you know. 25 : But typically, at that - EFTA00061448 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 around that time though, what would you 2 typically be working on aside from the daily 3 activity report and lieutenant's log? 4 : It would be - I would 5 be filling overtime. I would be -. There were 6 a number of things that I could have been 7 doing. I could have been talking to staff or 8 somebody on the phone about something that was 9 going on. It could have been anything. It 10 could have been anything. 11 : Okay. This is the daily 12 activities report and lieutenant's log from 13 August 10th and August 11th. So these are the 14 ones that we just discussed that were in those 15 emails. If you can flip to the actual 16 lieutenant's log. Would you during your shift 17 be reviewing the lieutenant's log and be 18 constantly filling it out as well as the, you 19 know, what happened prior to your shift? 20 : I don't -. I 21 wouldn't necessarily -. I have to look at what 22 occurred prior to my shift unless -. Usually 23 . When I did that, in order to fill this out 24 the daily activity report. In order to do 25 this, sometimes I would reference the EFTA00061449 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 lieutenant report if I didn't get a pass down 2 or something like that just to make sure that 3 the information that I felt should be included 4 in this should be documented. But as far as to 5 just look at the lieutenant's log prior to me 6 arriving for - if I wasn't looking for 7 something. Yeah. 8 : So the only time you 9 really reviewed the lieutenant's log is if like 10 you need to go back and look for things? 11 : If I was -. Yeah. 12 If I wanted to look at the information to see 13 if there was something that they documented 14 that they didn't tell me prior to them leaving 15 and shift change or something like that. 16 : And did you - would you 17 typically, if you're going back and reviewing 18 the lieutenant's logs from the previous shifts, 19 would you modify those as well? 20 : No. 21 : You don't ever do that? 22 : No. 23 : All right. So you 24 wouldn't have gone back and modified like a, 25 you know, August 9th that night watch or the EFTA00061450 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 day watch. 2 : If there was 3 something that occurred between 10:00 and 4 12:00, since the shift officially ended at 5 12:00. Like the count or something like that. 6 I would put that in. But that never - I don't 7 even remember when that would have occurred. I 8 mean that was rare if any that that would 9 occur. 10 : Now would you be 11 authorized though to make changes to the 12 lieutenant's logs for the shift -? 13 : That's not making 14 changes. That's adding stuff to it. 15 : No, I'm saying prior to. 16 So you came on at 10:00 p.m., so going to the 17 4:10 p.m. are you allowed to -? And I'm asking 18 this as a genuine question. Are you allowed to 19 make modifications or changes to the 20 lieutenant's logs prior to when you came on 21 board? 22 : That wouldn't be 23 considered a modification or a change. That 24 would be additional information that occurred 25 during that time to the log. EFTA00061451 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. : Say the count. 3 : Right. 4 : They - if the officer 5 - if the lieutenant wasn't there by the time 6 the 10:00 count cleared. You know. There were 7 times when I would go in and put the time that 8 was the count cleared or something to that 9 effect. 10 : Okay. What about 11 changing like the count numbers or things like 12 that? 13 : If something 14 happened. If an inmate left or something like 15 that - there was a reason why they need to be 16 changed in order for the information to be 17 accurate. Yeah. I mean if something like that 18 would have occurred. But like I said, there 19 was really -. I don't remember offhand this 20 late in - at this time - of an instance when 21 would have to change that. 22 : Sure. So do you recall 23 when -? 24 : I would have to 25 change the count to cause that. EFTA00061452 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 : During your interview in 2 June of 2021, just a few months ago, you had 3 mentioned that you were the one that caught an 4 - a discrepancy -. 5 : The inmate that was 6 in R&D. 7 : Correct. 8 : Mm-hm. 9 : So that kind of changed 10 the counts to everything. 11 : Right. 12 : So that's what I'm 13 talking about. So for instance, where I'm 14 pointing to on this like Friday, August 9, 15 2019, all these different count numbers. Would 16 have you then gone back and revised all these 17 count numbers? 18 : It depends on what it 19 effected. 20 : Okay. 21 : People as - I think 22 on the roster, the only count that is on there 23 is the institution count and Ten South count. 24 So unless something changed to those. But the 25 inmate that was in R&D wouldn't have changed EFTA00061453 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the institution count. The count would have 2 remained the same. 3 : I'm sorry, can you say 4 that again? 5 : The count. The 6 inmate that was -. If you're referring to the 7 innate that was -- 8 : In R&D. 9 : -- in R&D. 10 : Correct. 11 : That wouldn't have 12 changed the institution count. The institution 13 count would still remain the same. 14 : The overall -. 15 : If the institution 16 count was 600, the changes that we have to make 17 to - make corrections to his assignment 18 wouldn't have changed -. 19 : Well it would have 20 changed with what I'm pointing to is the SHU 21 count. 22 : That is Ten South's 23 SHU count. Let me see. 24 : So the SHU count, where 25 it says 75 and then slash the 5 might be Ten EFTA00061454 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 South. 2 : Okay. Okay. 3 : But the SHU count. 4 : Okay. That would 5 have It would have changed the -. It would 6 have changed the SHU count if it hadn't have 7 been changed previously. 8 : So then would you recall 9 if you went in and actually made these changes 10 to make this accurate? 11 : I mean if it was 12 wrong. I probably did. Offhand, I can't tell 13 you if I actually went in there and changed it 14 from what it previously was. Because I don't 15 know - sitting here today, I couldn't tell you 16 what the count was on that day. 17 : Okay. Do you remember if 18 you went in here and there's a - a line in here 19 - let me see - earlier in the day. Let me just 20 highlight some things so you don't have to find 21 it. Okay. So we can just go through this. I 22 highlighted them so you don't have to be 23 searching. Do you know if you made this 24 addition or change with regard to being 25 pre-removed. So it was at 8:38 a.m. to EFTA00061455 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 pre-remove? 2 : Oh, no. I don't know 3 why I would be doing that. 4 : No, you wouldn't have 5 added that pre-remove? 6 : At 8:30 the 7 lieutenant - the day - the lieutenant for the 8 day would have still been there. 9 : So you believe 10 whoever the - would that be day watch - whoever 11 the day watch lieutenant was - that would be 12 the person that would add that? 13 : I can tell you who 14 did it. It's on the day watch roster. But I 15 couldn't sit here and give you an honest answer 16 as to who made that change. 17 : But it wasn't you? 18 You wouldn't have done that? 19 : There would have been 20 no reason for me to change an 8:30 entry on day 21 watch. 22 : Okay. And whose 23 responsibility would that have been? 24 : I don't even know who 25 was working that day. EFTA00061456 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 : Sure. I'm not saying. 2 I'm saying like what position would it have 3 been like the activities or the ops lieutenant? 4 : I can tell you who's 5 responsible for doing the roster. And it could 6 be either the operations or the activities. 7 : Okay. 8 : You would have to ask 9 the people who were assigned that day about 10 that because -- 11 : Sure. 12 : I would only be 13 guessing. So I don't know. 14 : So the person who put 15 that in there probably would have been the 16 activities or the operations lieutenant for the 17 day watch that would have been working when 18 this happened? Is that correct? 19 : I'm going -. Because 20 it's their roster. But quite honestly, I 21 couldn't tell you who did it. I really can't. 22 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 23 and I'm not asking - I'm asking you who would 24 be responsible. I was asking first if you did 25 it and you said you didn't. EFTA00061457 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I could tell. 2 watch is responsible for their rosters. 3 Evening watch is responsible for their 4 lieutenant rosters. And morning watch is 5 responsible for their -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- rosters. 8 : What about -? So 9 was the inmate that you discovered in 10 R&D that you told us about after midnight. So 11 are you the one then on this roster that put in 12 that information about saying, it 13 says, I/M. on dry cell with staff 14 watch in R&D. And then down here at 3:15 p.m. 15 same thing. I/M. placed on dry cell 16 from II. 17 : I don't know if I did 18 that. 19 : Because you said you were 20 the one who discovered him in R&D, right? 21 : I didn't discover him 22 in R&D. He was already in R&D. 23 : Right, but he was 24 : I was informed that 25 he was in R&D. I didn't discover him. It EFTA00061458 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 wasn't like he was in there unattended. 2 : Right. 3 : I mean he -- 4 : No-no-no. 5 : -- didn't get there 6 by himself. 7 : But he wasn't ever placed 8 in R&D. His - the count - he was still counted 9 in the SHU up until you made the change that 10 you told us about after midnight. 11 : The thing with the 12 innate in R&D was that the officers were 13 notifying me that there was an inmate in R&D. 14 : Who was telling you this? 15 : The officers up in 16 SHU. 17 : Okay. 18 : And they weren't sure 19 how the inmate was to be counted I think it 20 was. And I didn't know that the inmate was in 21 R&D. So I was like well let me get a little 22 bit more information on what's going on. You 23 know, before I determine what we're going to do 24 because I don't know the status. We have - as 25 far as I know, there could be - it could have EFTA00061459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 been a new commit in R&D or something to that 2 effect that was going back - that was being 3 placed in the unit or something like that. 4 : So this is going to be to 5 help you kind of recollect what we talked 6 about. Here's the daily log. And on the third 7 page it shows that -. 8 : He was changed from 9 SHU to R&D or something like that. 10 : This is actually 11 So here's the one. It shows that - 12 yeah, he was - this is when - and I believe 13 you're the one who told us that you did this. 14 But on 8/10/2019, he was moved from SHU and 15 placed in R&D. So here's the inmate history - 16 the quarters - for 17 : Okay. 18 : And you had mentioned 19 before that this is during the count, you 20 realized that the count was off, so you had to 21 make that change. 22 : We have to move him 23 from SHU and place him in R&D. Yes. 24 : Correct. So when you did 25 that, did you go back? Or at some point during EFTA00061460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 your shift did you - or after your shift - just 2 in general - did you make the additions to 3 with - up here - being on 4 dry cell and R&D. And then here 5 being placed on dry cell from II. 6 : I don't remember if I 7 did that. 8 : Is that something you 9 would have done? 10 : It depends on what 11 was already in the log. I don't -. I don't 12 know. I don't. I mean -. It would have 13 depended on what was in log. I don't even know 14 if I went back to the log to see what was 15 reflected in the log. Because as long as i 16 made the change on my shift, I don't know 17 mean I don't mess with people's logs. So as 18 long as I make the change on my shift and made 19 sure that it reflected correctly on my shift, I 20 can't see going beck looking at what somebody 21 else wrote on their sheet. 22 : Okay. So the reason why 23 we think maybe you did - and we're just asking 24 if it was you who may have did it - because if 25 you notice, when you came on the end of your EFTA00061461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 shift. You said 10:00 p.m. About 12:00 a.m. 2 when he was relieved the duties by it 3 says there are 72 inmates in the SHU. And then 4 on August 10th at the beginning of the shift, 5 it shows that there were 73 inmates in the SHU 6 being because was moved at 12:35. 7 One SHU correction, , dry cell, RA. 8 : Okay. So what are 9 you saying? 10 : So I'm asking if you made 11 the changes. 12 : No -. 13 to the August 9th. 14 : I don't - I don't 15 know. I don't know if I did or not. 16 : So you don't recall if 17 you made these changes or if you added -? 18 : Today from that day 19 to this one, no I don't recall. 20 : Because this - is it true 21 that this number right here 72 should it say 72 22 here? Why would this one say 72 but this say 23 73? 24 : What do you mean? 25 : So at the end -. EFTA00061462 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : What date is this? : This is August 9th at - 33 3 it's going into August 10th. So I guess at 4 11:59. But on this it says, "clear institution 5 count 10:43 p.m. - 72." 6 : Oh, because it - 7 because at 12:00 when I came in, that was the 8 count that was noted. 9 : Yeah, well -- 10 : 73. 11 : -- but these counts also 12 on the count slip in the El was 73, but someone 13 must have gone back and changed it to 72. 14 : Okay. I don't know if I 15 did that. 16 : Okay. Was that something 17 you would have done? We're just trying to 18 figure out why are these numbers not showing 19 what the institution count says. 20 : I can't tell you 21 that. Because like I said, I'm concerned about 22 what's on my roster. If my roster reflects 73 23 at 12:00, why would I in turn go back and 24 change the previous day's count to 72? That 25 doesn't make any sense. EFTA00061463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 : Well that's what we're 2 trying to figure out because -- 3 : Okay, well I -. 4 : -- these counts aren't 5 matching up with what the Els were saying or 6 what the counts slips were saying. 7 : Okay, well I can't 8 help you with that. 9 : So we're just - since 10 you're the one who figured out that 11 he was being counted in the SHU up until this 12 point. He was - according to this roster, this 13 lieutenant log, at 3:15, he was moved. Well he 14 was never moved on any of the count slips or 15 any of the Els or any of that. He was always 16 being counted in the SHU. Although, the 17 lieutenant's log is showing that he wasn't. So 18 the lieutenant logs are saying one thing but 19 the El and the count slips are saying something 20 different. So we're trying to figure out who 21 went back and changed these numbers? Who went 22 back and made these additions. The only 23 logical explanation would be since you're the 24 one who actually coded him from the SHU to R&D, 25 the thought is, oh you must have. You must EFTA00061464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 have went back and corrected everything. 2 : I don't know how you 3 came to that conclusion that it was me when -. 4 : Because he's completely - 5 Okay, sorry. I didn't want to interrupt 6 you. When what? 7 : When my beginning 8 counts say 73 and five, so why would I go back 9 to day watch or some other shift -- 10 : Well because you started 11 at -- 12 : -- and change their - 13 14 : -- 10:00 p.m. The 10:00 15 p.m. count shows 72. 16 : Okay. So maybe 17 somebody went back and changed what I said. 18 Maybe they changed something that I wrote. 19 mean -. 20 : Why would have they 21 changed what you wrote? You're the one who 22 discovered it. You have entered in one 23 correction, to dry cell, brings it 24 down to that 72 number down to 72. These 25 numbers never showed 73. It said 72. EFTA00061465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 : Because this is what 2 he had - 72. That is what he had. He had 72 3 and five before I came on duty. He had 72 and 4 five. 5 : Okay. Here's the 10:00 6 p.m. count - 73. And this was - you were there 7 for that, right? 8 : The 10:00 p.m. count 9 is already in progress by the time I get there. 10 : Right. 11 : A lot of the times. 12 : But it was at 10:30 p.m. 13 is when it was cleared. And on the 14 lieutenant's log, the 10:43 p.m. clear 15 institution count announced, it says 72. 16 : You said at -. Mind 17 you, I wasn't even aware that this dude was in 18 R&D until I was taking the 12:00 count. That's 19 when they notified me that there was an inmate 20 in R&D. That's when I started looking into all 21 of this stuff. 22 : Okay. So on that note, 23 you said that's when you started looking into 24 the stuff. We have - on this 10:00 p.m. count, 25 you notice on all the count slips, they're all EFTA00061466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 -. So it says there were 73 in • and zero in 2 RA. Right? So RA is R&D, correct? On the El. 3 : What is it? RA? 4 : It says RA - it's 5 actually R&D, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 : And there is zero in that 8 it says at this 10:00 p.m. count on August 9th. 9 : I can't see that from 10 way over there. 11 : Sorry. 12 : Yes, it's showing 13 that there were zero. 14 : So zero in R&D and it 15 says 73 in II, which is SHU, correct? So R&D 16 we've got a count slip. It shows R&D one. And 17 then we have a count slip that says 73 plus 18 one. So -. 19 : 73 plus one? 20 : It says 73 plus one. We 21 think it maybe was supposed to say 73 minus 22 one. And we're not sure. 23 : No. 24 : But we have a count slip 25 for R&D so if you notice, all of the other EFTA00061467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 count slips are crossed off. These count slips 2 are not. So the R&D count slip is not crossed 3 off. The SHU count slip is not crossed off. 4 When we talked to the , who says - was 5 doing the count slip, who was doing the count, 6 he said this -. It says 9S plus one. And this 7 73 plus one, would never have -. He would have 8 never written that without the approval of the 9 ops lieutenant if he actually wrote that. 10 : Okay. Well you 11 probably should ask him what ops lieutenant 12 gave him the approval to do that. 13 : Well you were the only 14 ops lieutenant on duty. 15 : I did not find out 16 anything about this inmate being in R&D until 17 the 12:00 count. 18 : Okay. So at 12:00, we've 19 talked to the people that were in the SHU. And 20 they said they never had such a conversation 21 with you. So the thought is maybe you had the 22 conversation at 10:00. 23 : No. Look, no. No. 24 : We're just trying to put 25 the pieces together because it doesn't make EFTA00061468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 sense -- 2 : Okay, well -. 3 : -- by looking at all this 4 stuff. 5 : Okay, well you're not 6 going to put the pieces together by speculating 7 because I didn't find out -. And to be honest 8 with you, I think it was was 9 the one who brought it to my attention. 10 said he never did. 11 : Okay. 12 : He never had a 13 conversation with you. 14 : Okay. Well. 15 may not remember. But I didn't talk to anyone 16 at 10:00 about this one plus inmate. That 17 When we was taking the 12:00 count, that's when 18 this came up about the inmate being in R&D or 19 whatever, which is why the changes occurred at 20 12:00. 21 : Okay. Because yeah, I 22 mean -- 23 : I don't even -- 24 : -- when we last talked 25 you said that you had - you know, you had to go EFTA00061469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 back and do a lot of things in order to make 2 the changes and make sure that he was in R&D. 3 Well this El was printed out at 00:35:17, 4 where's the MA Quarter History? There it is. 5 The change was made at 00:35. 6 : Right, after the 7 12:00 count. 8 : So 12:00 count, the El is 9 printed out the exact same minute that the 10 change was made. So if you had to verify these 11 things, how is the El printed out at 00:35 and 12 the quarter - the change made from him going 13 from the SHU to R&D also at 00:35. 14 : We have to do a new 15 El when the count changes. 16 : Okay. 17 : When the count is 18 effected, we have to run a new El. 19 : All right. So then you 20 would have -. 21 : To reflect the 22 change. 23 : So you were able to that 24 quickly during this count be able to like 25 figure all that out rather than -. And the EFTA00061470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 theory that we have is that - and I don't know 2 that there's anything wrong with this. We just 3 need to put the pieces together. 4 : I can't help you put 5 the pieces together because -- 6 : Do you know -? 7 : -- what I'm telling 8 you is that at 12:00, when I was taking the 9 12:00 count, that was the count that I always 10 took for the most part, because I was busy 11 doing overtime trying to fill overtime and 12 stuff like that when I first got in. So the 13 first count that I would have taken was the 14 12:00 count. That's when it came to my 15 attention. That's when I happened - after I 16 figured out what was going on - that's when we 17 did the change in the computer so that it would 18 reflect the accurate count. I would never have 19 someone turn in a count slip with seven plus 20 something on there. That's not even how the 21 count slip - that I'm accustomed to doing - is 22 done. 23 : Okay, so do you mean for 24 this 10:00 p.m. count, you know nothing about 25 this 9S plus one or this 73 plus one? EFTA00061471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. 2 : You've never seen those 3 before? 4 : No. 5 : No? Okay. So per 6 who said that he got the approval of the ops 7 lieutenant - yourself - to do that, he's lying 8 to us? 9 : I never gave anyone 10 the approval to do 70 something plus something 11 on a count slip. Because I didn't even know 12 that the inmate was in R&D before the 12:00 - 13 before I went into control -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- to take the 12:00 16 count. 17 : And are you sure you 18 talked to and not potentially 19 at 10:00 p.m.? 20 : I don't think it was 21 22 : Because was 23 working at 10:00 p.m. and is one of 24 the individuals who was listed on the 10:00 25 p.m. count. and didn't' EFTA00061472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 come in until 12:00 a.m. does not 2 recall ever having a conversation with you. 3 : Okay, well that 4 doesn't surprise me. I mean has 5 witnessed a traumatic event. I mean - and 6 you're talking about a timeframe that was 7 several years ago. I'm telling you what I just 8 said. Now if the pieces doesn't fit or if 9 you're speculating somehow that, you know, I 10 did all of this, then I don't know what I can 11 do to change your mind. 12 : No-no-no. 13 : I'm telling you. I'm 14 telling you. You asked me a question. I've 15 given you an answer. And I would prefer to 16 move on. 17 : Okay. So to wrap it up 18 then, what you are saying is you had no 19 involvement with the 10:00 p.m. count? 20 : I did not having 21 nothing to do with the 10:00 p.m. count as far 22 as the count slips and in reference to this 23 inmate being in R&D. Because I wasn't even 24 aware that we had an inmate in R&D. And most 25 especially to the point whereby he wasn't EFTA00061473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 already moved or whatever. Changes to his 2 status hadn't even been moved. 3 : And do you know if 4 or anyone else would have gone back to - after 5 you made the discovery - would they have gone 6 back and wrote in this 9S plus one? 7 : I don't -. 8 : And this -. 9 : I -. Why would I 10 even -? If I didn't know it was happening, why 11 would I have any reason to believe that? 12 : Well the reason why I'm 13 asking is obviously because like I showed you 14 before on the daily activities lieutenant - or 15 the daily log - the lieutenant's log - it shows 16 73 when you - your shift technically started on 17 paper at 12:00. But at 10:00 p.m. it showed 18 72. But again, at 10:00 p.m. we got a count 19 slip that says 73 and now plus one. And we 20 have an El that says 73. So someone made 21 changes. So someone made changes. We're just 22 trying to figure out who made these changes. 23 Because you're the only one that would have 24 access to the lieutenant's log. And you didn't 25 send out the lieutenant's log -- EFTA00061474 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I'm not the only 2 person -- 3 : -- and activities report 4 5 : -- who has access to 6 the lieutenant's log. 7 : But from -. 8 : Every -. Every -. 9 Every - there's a lot of people who have access 10 to the lieutenant's log. 11 : But that's what we 12 covered in the beginning. You said that you 13 were probably working on the activities report 14 and lieutenant's log. And you didn't send it 15 out this day until 9:26 a.m. 16 : Let me tell you 17 something. 18 : -- on August 10th. 19 : I could go to the - I 20 could go and access the lieutenant's log right 21 now and make changes to it. From however long 22 ago those lieutenant logs were in the computer. 23 : Yeah, well -- 24 : Okay? 25 : -- this one we have your EFTA00061475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 email where you sent it out. So we know the 2 exact lieutenant's logs that you sent out 3 because we have them. That's why I showed you 4 the emails. 5 : Okay. Between the 6 time that I sent those logs out and the next 7 day, so anybody who have access to those 8 lieutenant's log could have made changes to 9 them. 10 : Isn't it true they're on 11 a shared folder that only the lieutenants have 12 access to? 13 : Anyone who had - 14 everyone who has access to those lieutenant's 15 logs, at any point in time can go in there and 16 make changes to it. 17 : So on the morning watch, 18 who has access to the lieutenant's log? 19 : It depends on who is 20 in the building. 21 : So you're the highest 22 ranking official as the ops lieutenant in the 23 building, right? 24 : If I'm here, well we 25 all - I mean we all know that I have access to EFTA00061476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 the rosters. But I'm not the only person who 2 have access to the lieutenant's logs. There 3 are other people in this building who have 4 access to the lieutenant's account that has 5 access to the lieutenant's log. 6 : But the captain wasn't 7 here in the morning - on the morning watch. 8 : How do you know those 9 changes was even made on morning watch? 10 : You sent out the email at 11 9:26. 12 : Okay. You talking 13 about the day before the day watch and all of 14 this other stuff. So. 15 : No, I'm talking about on 16 August 10, 2019, at 9:26 a.m., where it was 17 always sent out at like almost closer to 5:00 18 a.m. the days before, and you even said, I was 19 probably working on the activities report and 20 the daily lieutenant's log. 21 : My lieutenant's log. 22 : Right. So the thing that 23 you sent out was - you sent out both of these. 24 : All the logs for that 25 day is sent out. That's something that they're EFTA00061477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the first day. 2 : Correct. But the big 3 thing that was discovered on your shift had to 4 do with was always - the 5 whole day on August 9th - including the 10:00 6 p.m. count - was still keyed into the SHU. He 7 was never keyed out of the SHU and placed into 8 R&D even though we have R&D count slips. 9 There's nothing on the Els that say anything 10 about R&D - about him being in R&D - it's only 11 that he's ever been in the SHU. So we're just 12 trying to figure out. You sent this out. Your 13 email - it was your email. You're the one who 14 sent this out. So the fact that you were 15 working on it and you sent it out, you're the 16 only one there that had access to it from 10:00 17 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. that we are aware of. Who 18 else could have made those changes? 19 : What changes - what 20 changes are you talking about? 21 : We're asking about, like 22 I said, this addition saying was on 23 dry cell at - you must have done this one at 24 12:35 a.m. -. 25 : Oh my God. EFTA00061478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : And the -. 2 : And you're 3 : Again, look. This is 4 : No, I'm not. No. 5 from August 10th. 6 : No, I'm done. No. 7 : This is from August 9th. 8 : I'm done looking at 9 it. 10 : This says 72 on August 11 9th. And then 12:00 a.m. - 12:00 a.m. This 12 one says 72. This one says 73. So someone 13 must have gone into this and made all the 14 changes here. And someone must have gone in 15 and - I mean, it's almost - like I was going to 16 say. Hey, that's -. It seems like you made 17 things accurate. Because you're -. I thought 18 you were the one that would have wanted to say 19 okay, I figured out that at 3:15 p.m., 20 was actually placed on dry cell from 21 the SHU. And you probably -- 22 : The shift - the shift 23 before me knew that he was on dry cell. He was 24 on dry cell when I got here. So what would 25 make you think that those entries weren't in EFTA00061479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the runs from previously? 2 : Because all the numbers 3 are wrong. 4 : Okay, what does that 5 have to do with me? 6 : The numbers are actually 7 right. They're wrong on the E2 and they're 8 wrong on the count slips. 9 : God. Come on now. 10 You don't going to check. 11 : So these are - these 12 numbers show how many were actually in SHU. 13 Although the El - institution count - and the 14 count slips show that he was in SHU. So these 15 aren't' adding up to these. So the only 16 logical explanation is the person who found out 17 that he was actually not in SHU and was in R&D 18 made the corrections. 19 : I didn't find out 20 that he was in -. I found out in SHU because I 21 didn't know. I didn't. He was in SHU already, 22 so somebody had to -. 23 : No, he wasn't in SHU. He 24 was in R&D. 25 : Okay. He was in SHU EFTA00061480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 before he was in R&D. So. How did he get to 2 R&D? I guess I put him in R&D too? And then I 3 had somebody call me and tell me he was in R&D? 4 : No, that's what -. The 5 question was going to be next, how did you 6 learn that he was actually placed in the SHU 7 from R&D. I mean you were included on an email 8 that was sent from the SHU OIC to the previous 9 ops lieutenant stating what happened. So that 10 would be - that was going to be a follow-up 11 question. Is this how you learned? So here is 12 an email. It's from and it's to 13 - you're one of the individuals - and it says, 14 subject - medical assessment for 15 Leonardo, Friday, August 9, 2019, at 3:11 p.m. 16 So this is the assumption was that you probably 17 went back to your emails when you were doing 18 the verification. And said oh, this must have 19 been when it happened. 20 : When what happened? 21 : When was moved. 22 : This is a - an all 23 lieutenant email. It has all of the 24 lieutenants on it. 25 : Yeah, but again, there's EFTA00061481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 only one lieutenant who found out and actually 2 made the - keyed him from SHU to R&D. That was 3 you. 4 : Because it was wrong. 5 He was in the wrong place. 6 : Right. And you corrected 7 it. We're not -. I don't know why we're - I 8 mean -. 9 : You're the one that 10 keeps dragging this out. Because you're trying 11 to find an answer to something that I can't 12 give you. 13 : Okay. So you don't - you 14 do not believe -. 15 : You're trying to make 16 - you have a scenario. Or and you're trying to 17 make it fit somehow into a conclusion that 18 somehow I was involved. So you can get the 19 answer to whatever it is you're inquiring 20 about. I have given you the information that i 21 have. 22 : Okay. So I'll ask it 23 then this simply. 24 : I'm done. I'm done. 25 : Did you go -? EFTA00061482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 : I'm done with that. 2 I'm done with that because I have given you -- 3 : But it's been -. 4 : -- more than enough 5 information. 6 : The reason why we're here 7 is because -- 8 : You're trying - 9 you're trying -. 10 : -- when we're looking at 11 you, the way you answer questions and you don't 12 answer them directly. So we're just asking the 13 direct question. Did you make any changes to 14 the numbers on this August 9, 2019 SHU count? 15 : I'm answering your 16 questions to the best of my ability pertaining 17 to anything and everything that I remember from 18 that day several years ago. 19 : So you can either say 20 "yes," "no" -- 21 : Do you -? 22 : -- or I don't know. 23 : Do you know how many 24 things were going on? How many -? Do you know 25 the stuff we was dealing with in this building EFTA00061483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 during that time? 2 : I get it. But your 3 answers -. 4 : I don't think you do. 5 I don't think you do. 6 : -- aren't clear. And the 7 reason why we're back here is because -. All 8 I'm saying Did you make any changes to the 9 August 9, 2019 lieutenant's log where the 10 numbers are right here where I'm pointing to on 11 the SHU? 12 : I've already answered 13 that. 14 : No, you did not. 15 : Yes I did. 16 : How did you answer it? 17 : What reason - what 18 reason would I have to -? 19 : That is not an answer. 20 : Okay. Well I don't 21 know what to tell you. 22 : That is not an answer, 23 Ma'am. 24 : Okay. 25 : The answerer is yes, no, EFTA00061484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 or I don't know. 2 : I don't know what to 3 tell you because you're sitting here trying to 4 get me to tell you something that I did 5 something. And give you a definite answer as 6 to whether or not I did it. And I can't do 7 that because -. 8 : Well I gave you an answer 9 of "I don't know." 10 : My roster - my roster 11 says 73 at the beginning of my shift. And 12 since it said 73 at the beginning of my shift - 13 14 : What time did your shift 15 start Ma'am? 16 : Why would I go -? 17 Why would I go back? 18 : Ma'am, what time -? 19 : And chase the 20 previous -. 21 : We already addressed 22 this. 23 : -- and change a 24 previous entry. 25 : Your shift started at EFTA00061485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 10:00 p.m. 2 : But no. I told you. 3 I just told you that it wasn't a good enough 4 answer to you. Remember? You told me it 5 wasn't an answer. So I don't know what answer 6 you want me to give you. 7 : I want you to -. 8 : Except for the one 9 that you want. 10 : No. A yes, a no, or an I 11 don't know. Not a "I already told you" and 12 then go into something that doesn't answer the 13 question. 14 : Because I have 15 already. You've asked -. We've been talking 16 this now for over 30 minutes. 17 : Because you have not 18 provided an answer, Ma'am. 19 : I've given you an 20 answer to the best of my ability based upon 21 what I remember during that time. 22 : So based upon what you 23 remember at that time, did you make changes to 24 the August 9, 2019 numbers that are listed here 25 on the SHU? Ma'am we can sit here all day. EFTA00061486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 : I'm not going to sit 2 here all day because I get off at 2:00. 3 : You have not provided an 4 answer to my question. 5 : I have provided you 6 with an answer. 7 : You have not. 8 : I have provided you 9 with -- 10 : You have spoken -. 11 : -- an answer and I 12 told you numerous -. 13 : You've spoken around the 14 answer. 15 : I told you numerous 16 times. 17 : You have not provided an 18 answer to my question. 19 : That if my roster say 20 73 at the beginning of my shift, which it does, 21 what reason would I have to go back and change 22 the previous day's roster way from the very 23 tippy top of their roster all the way down to 24 the bottom and change it to something else that 25 doesn't reflect what my roster say -. EFTA00061487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 : Ma'am, what time did you 2 start your shift on that date? 3 : To be -. I could 4 have relieved the guy at 9:30, 9:45, I don't 5 remember what - exactly what time I got in. 6 : Okay. So you started at 7 approximately 10:00 p.m. At 10:00 p.m., like 8 we covered, it shows 72. At 12:00 a.m. - and 9 then again at 12:00 a.m. on the - it says 72 10 and then it says 73. This all happened during 11 your shift. 12 : How do you know that 13 it happened during my shift? That's 14 : What I'm saying is you 15 saying that the beginning of your shift it says 16 73. No, it didn't. At the beginning of your 17 shift it said 72. 18 : At 12:00, when I 19 discovered that that inmate was in SHU, the 20 count at that time was 73. There were times at 21 the beginning of my shift I don't even start my 22 roster at the beginning of my shift - the 23 lieutenant's log. The lieutenant's log is 24 something that I do towards the end of my shift 25 - especially on morning watch because there's EFTA00061488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 not a whole lot going on but the count. So 2 there's not going to be a lot of - a whole lot 3 of entries going on during that time. So 4 simply because you seen an entry at a 5 particular time don't mean that I'm sitting 6 there looking at the clock at every hour doing 7 an entry into my log. 8 : No. The thought is - the 9 thought is that like you said you were working 10 from approximately 5:30 a.m. until 7:00 a.m. on 11 your paperwork and then again it sounds like 12 from probably about 8:00 a.m. until you sent 13 out the email at 9:26 a.m. on your paperwork. 14 And we talked about this is the paperwork that 15 you would have been working on. So for 16 approximately three plus hours you may have 17 been working on this. 18 : You asked me what 19 type of work do I normally do during the course 20 of my shift. And what paperwork would I have 21 been working on if I was late. And I told you 22 more than likely the daily log, the finishing 23 up my lieutenant's log or something to that 24 effect. I could have been doing the roster. I 25 could have been doing a bunch of things. I EFTA00061489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 don't recall everything that I did verbatim 2 during the course of that night. There was a 3 lot of things going on at that time. 4 : And that's why we covered 5 ahead of time that all of these emails that you 6 sent out previously, they were all sent out way 7 before the 6:30 timeframe with the daily 8 activities log and the lieutenant's log. 9 : I don't stay - I 10 don't stay late every day. I only stay late 11 when I don't have - when I haven't had the 12 opportunity to finish -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- all of my work 15 during my shift. 16 : So you told us previously 17 that you were relieved at approximately 5:30 18 a.m. that day. And we have confirmed that. 19 And at 7:00 a.m. you went up to help with 20 feeding. And then at approximately 8:00 a.m., 21 you went back to do other things. And then at 22 approximately 9:30 a.m., you sent this out. So 23 aside from the feeding, if you weren't working 24 on this, what else would you have been working 25 on? EFTA00061490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : I don't remember. : Okay, that's fine. You I 3 don't remember. That is an actual answer. Now 4 the next question is did you change on August 5 9th the numbers in the SHU to reflect what they 6 accurately were? 7 : I don't recall doing 8 that. 9 : You don't recall. Okay. 10 And do you recall if you made the additions to 11 the August 9th lieutenant's log with regard to 12 being placed on dry cell from II? 13 : What? 14 : Do you recall adding this 15 addition at 3:15 p.m. with regard to 16 being placed on dry cell from II? 17 : From that day to this 18 point, no, I don't remember doing that. 19 : Okay. So you don't 20 recall, so we can move on. 21 : What time is it? 22 : 1:20. So on this daily 23 log, we well as on the lieutenant's log, um 24 Yeah, you can just leave everything here just 25 so I can know what it is that she can't EFTA00061491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 remember. So on this August 9, 2019, on the 2 lieutenant's log it shows that at 8:38 a.m. 3 went from ■ to pre-remove. And then 4 here's the daily log which says again 5 pre-removed and it shows 8/9/2019 at 0838. 6 what does pre-remove mean? 7 : That is something 8 that's an R&D thing. You'll have to ask R&D 9 what that means. If the count change, that 10 meant that he was removed from this 11 institution. 12 : All right. So you're 13 saying that if you see something listed as pre- 14 remove on the lieutenant's log - it literally 15 says it on the lieutenant's log, so I would 16 think a lieutenant would know what that means. 17 And the count did change. But do you know what 18 pre-remove means being that it's on the 19 lieutenant's log? 20 : Just because it's on 21 the lieutenant's log and because it says pre- 22 remove, doesn't mean that we know the exact 23 meaning of pre-remove. That is an R&D term 24 that they use when they are changing the 25 inmate's status. EFTA00061492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. : In the system. 3 : Do you know that to mean 4 that he is removed from the institution? 5 : If it effected the 6 count, then we would note it on the roster. 7 Because when an inmate - when the count changes 8 on the roster for certain things - and that 9 inmate is not coming back - or he's at court 10 and he's coming back later, a lot of times we 11 will put those entries on the roster. 12 : So when they're listed as 13 pre-remove though, are they ever listed as pre- 14 remove if they're going to court? 15 : That's not a court 16 move. That's not a court move. It would say 17 court. 18 : Right. So pre-remove 19 means he left the institution. Correct? 20 : Pre-remove would be 21 that he left the institution. 22 : And not coming back, 23 correct? 24 : We don't know if he's 25 coming back. Because it could say pre-remove EFTA00061493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 and we check - and when we check the status - 2 the movements - he could be back on there. So 3 it's not definitive that when he leaves, that 4 he's definitely for certain not coming back. 5 : So a pre-remove actually 6 leaves the institution, to your understanding, 7 could actually come back? 8 : If something changes, 9 for some particular reason, he could come back. 10 You would have to get with R&D. 11 : So with getting with R&D, 12 we have these emails from the U.S. Marshals 13 Service on August 8, 2019. One at 10:33 a.m. 14 and the next one at 3:36 p.m. And they all 15 talk about a prisoner production. All the 16 lieutenants were sent the second one that was 17 sent at 3:36 p.m. The initial email that was 18 sent at 10:33 p.m. specifically says, "the 19 following prisoners are to be transferred." 20 The second name down says . And 21 the one that you had received for lieutenants 22 is a prisoner schedule report. It says, 23 , transfer within. It says Judge 24 MCC to GEO. Do you know what GEO is, G-E-O? 25 : I know GEO is a EFTA00061494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 private institution. 2 : Correct. So from these 3 documents if you want to take a look so that 4 I'm not showing you them from a few feet away. 5 Does that help you to see that he was 6 transferred - he was not coming back? 7 : No that's not because 8 this didn't even occur on my shift. 9 : No, that was the day 10 before. It said that that's where he was 11 going. You were on the email. And then on the 12 lieutenant's log for August 9th when you 13 started - you worked on August 9th in the 14 morning as well as August 9th in the evening. 15 You know up until 6:00 a.m. on August 9th, and 16 then started again at 10:00 p.m. on August 9th. 17 It shows that he was pre-remove - 18 Correct? 19 : What you all say he 20 was pre-remove? 21 : The lieutenant's log. 22 : He was pre-removed at 23 what time? 24 : At 8:38 a.m. 25 : Okay. That's - if EFTA00061495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 got off at 6:00, that period after I got off. 2 : Yes, it did. It happened 3 but then you came back on later that day. 4 : Okay. 5 : And was Epstein's 6 cellmate. 7 : Okay. 8 : And Epstein was required 9 to have a cellmate. So if the lieutenant's log 10 says he's pre-remove and you have emails 11 showing that he was transferred, how come - as 12 the ops lieutenant - you didn't have Epstein 13 assigned a new cellmate? 14 : First of all, I had 15 no knowledge of who Epstein's cellmate was. 16 And I had no knowledge that Epstein was even 17 supposed to have a cellie. So -. 18 : So those two things we 19 were told by everyone that that is not an 20 acceptable answer. You were involved in the 21 July 23, 2019 incident where he tried to kill 22 himself. And everyone - especially the 23 lieutenants - know that cellmates that try to 24 kill themselves have to have -. Inmates that 25 try to kill themselves have to have cellmates. EFTA00061496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : That's not true. : Who? That's not true? 3 : That's not true. 4 : So every person that 5 we've talked to said that that is absolutely 6 true and everybody knows it. It's reviewed in 7 training. It's reviewed in annual refresher 8 training. It's reviewed in quarterly SHU 9 training. It's institution knowledge. 10 Everybody knows - BOP inmate attempts to commit 11 suicide, when they come off, they're assigned a 12 cellmate unless they have some type of 13 restrictive order against them saying that they 14 cannot be assigned a cellmate. 15 : That is not true. 16 : And then can you -? 17 : They do not have an 18 order. There is no such thing as a restrictive 19 order saying that an inmate coming off of 20 suicide watch is not supposed to have a cellie. 21 That doesn't even exist. 22 : Okay. So what you're 23 saying is they all have cellmates. 24 : They -. Inmates. 25 There is nothing in writing. Nobody gives you EFTA00061497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 anything in writing saying inmate so-and-so is 2 coming off of suicide watch and he is not to 3 have a cellie. 4 : Well the last time we 5 spoke -- 6 : No one. 7 : -- we actually did have 8 that in writing. 9 : No one. 10 : You were provided the 11 email saying that he actually did - was 12 required to have a cellmate. 13 : Okay. And I never 14 read the email. I never saw the email. And -. 15 : But you just said that 16 that's never done in writing. 17 : You said that - you 18 said. 19 : But it was done in 20 writing. 21 : You said that they 22 say that an inmate - when an inmate is not 23 supposed to have a cellie. And it's put in 24 writing. 25 : No-no-no. Isn't there - EFTA00061498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 don't inmates have restrictive orders placed on 2 them if you go into like one of the BOP 3 databases saying this inmate needs to be celled 4 alone because they are a threat or something. 5 It prevents them from being able to have a 6 cellmate. 7 : I've never seen 8 anything like that. 9 : Okay. So you're not 10 aware of inmates that aren't allowed to have 11 other cellmates? 12 : I have never seen a 13 memo or email or something like that saying 14 inmates are not supposed to have a cellie or 15 anything like that. 16 : Okay. And that's fine. 17 : I mean -. 18 : But you must know, as a 19 lieutenant who has been, you know, here for a 20 long time, and worked for the BOP for a long 21 time, that inmates that attempt to commit 22 suicide - when they come off of suicide watch 23 they're supposed to have a cellmate. 24 : That is not 25 automatic. That has never been automatic. EFTA00061499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 Those - if an inmate is definitively supposed 2 to have a cellie, psychology would let us know 3 or someone would let us know. Who's aware of 4 that information. 5 : Psychology sent you an 6 email. 7 : That is - that is 8 never - like standard procedure. Inmates go 9 inmates that come off of suicide watch are 10 often - most especially here - put in a cell by 11 themselves. I mean that's not something - the 12 psychologists would - psychology services. 13 They would be the ones who determine whether or 14 not - based upon their interactions with that 15 inmate or what they diagnose as his - what you 16 know and dealing with that inmate and his 17 mental needs, whether or not that particular 18 inmate is supposed to have a cellie or not. 19 That is not something that's understood or 20 something that we should know automatically. 21 That's not true. That is not true. 22 : So two things to that. 23 One, psychology did send out an email saying 24 that he was required to have a cellmate. And 25 you did - you were a recipient of that email. EFTA00061500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 And two, everyone says that during annual 2 refresher training, psychology does a 3 presentation saying just that - that inmates 4 that come off suicide watch will be housed with 5 a cellmate. 6 : That is not true. 7 That's not true. 8 : That's not true? 9 : That's not true. 10 : So all the people that 11 requested these - you know we've interviewed a 12 number of people. A great number of people. 13 : Okay. So if that was 14 the case, if this is so widely known, and that 15 was the procedure, why didn't he have a cellie? 16 : That's my question to 17 you. You were the ops lieutenant. Why didn't 18 he have a cellie? 19 : I wasn't the ops 20 lieutenant when he left. 21 : What -? 22 : I wasn't the ops 23 lieutenant who entered the entry into the 24 roster. 25 : But you were - that we EFTA00061501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 know of - you were the ops lieutenant. 2 : Oh my God. 3 : You were the ops 4 lieutenant during -- 5 : So now everything - I 6 did everything. 7 : Well no. I just said 8 because you said you can't recall things. So 9 you were the ops lieutenant for a large chunk 10 of time that he was without a cellmate. For an 11 entire shift, that he was - it was less than 24 12 hours - for an entire shift, you were the ops 13 lieutenant when he did not have a cellmate. 14 : I wasn't the first 15 ops lieutenant or the SHU lieutenant or 16 anything else. 17 : You were the last ops 18 lieutenant. 19 : Okay. But I wasn't 20 the first. 21 : No you weren't. You were 22 the last. So more than likely, this happened 23 on your watch. 24 : More than likely what 25 happened on my watch? EFTA00061502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 : That if Epstein killed 2 himself, it happened on your watch. Correct? 3 : I don't know when 4 Epstein killed himself if it was on my watch or 5 after I got off. 6 : Right. So the question 7 to you is left the institution. It's 8 listed on the lieutenant's log that he's gone. 9 And you said that you did a round in the SHU. 10 Why wasn't Epstein placed with a new cellmate? 11 : Why wasn't Epstein 12 placed with a new cellmate as soon as the first 13 one - as soon as the cellmate left? 14 : We absolutely are asking 15 that question as well. 16 : Why when -? 17 : We asked the same 18 question to everybody that's been involved with 19 this. And we're asking you. 20 : Why -? Why would -? 21 Why would psychology send out an email about 22 something that's so critical. And if everybody 23 knew it, if this was standard procedure, why 24 would psychology have to send out an email 25 period? To let everybody know that he needed a EFTA00061503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 cellie if everybody knew it already. 2 : Everyone -. 3 : If it was standard 4 procedure, and there was policy, and everybody 5 knew it, then we shouldn't even be having this 6 - sitting here. Why was Jeffrey Epstein placed 7 in SHU? 8 : So you're the only person 9 that I know of that is saying that you didn't 10 know he was supposed to have a cellmate. 11 : Okay. Well if I'm 12 the only person that's saying that, then 13 Jeffrey Epstein - if having a cellie - which we 14 already know from his previous attempted 15 suicide - would not have prevented him from 16 trying to kill himself. 17 : Well that did prevent him 18 from killing himself. The - his cellmate is 19 the one who notified guards that he was 20 attempting to harm himself. 21 : But he still tried to 22 kill himself. That didn't stop him from doing 23 that. The fact that he had a cellie. Did that 24 stop him from trying to do it then. 25 : He tried but wasn't EFTA00061504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 successful because his had a cellmate, correct? 2 : If everybody knew 3 that Jeffrey Epstein was supposed to have a 4 cellie and it was understood, it was standard 5 procedure, there would have been no reason for 6 psychology to even send out an email because 7 everybody - according to you and what everybody 8 has told you - it was standard procedure. 9 Everybody knew it already. So he should -- 10 : Everyone knew -? 11 : -- so if that was the 12 case, then way before I got here, way before 13 came on duty, he should have had a cellie. 14 : I agree. 15 : If that was the case. 16 : I absolutely agree with 17 you. 18 : If that was the case. 19 : One hundred percent. 20 : If everybody knew - 21 if everybody knew all this stuff, then I don't 22 know why psychology would send out an email 23 telling everybody that he needed a cellie if 24 everybody already knew that. 25 : Well everyone knows it EFTA00061505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 from their training experience and everyone 2 knew it because psychology put the placement on 3 it. So the question to you is why didn't you 4 replace the cellmate? Why didn't you assign -? 5 : I wasn't aware that 6 Epstein did not have a cellie. I wasn't aware 7 that Epstein was supposed to have a cellie. 8 : Okay. So you didn't know 9 either that Epstein didn't have cellie or that 10 he was required to have a cellie. 11 : That's correct. 12 : And as a lieutenant who 13 has worked for the BOP for that long, you're 14 sticking - who actually responded to the July 15 23, 2019 incident where Epstein attempted harm 16 himself. You're sticking with you didn't know 17 he was required to have a cellmate? 18 : I did not know that 19 Jeffrey Epstein was required to have a cellie. 20 : Okay. 21 : That was nothing that 22 - no one said anything to me about that. I 23 didn't see the email from because if 24 sent out -. If she sent out an 25 email, she should have followed up. That's not EFTA00061506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 something that - something of that importance. 2 If you feel as though his life depended on it, 3 I don't know why you would be taking him off 4 suicide watch anyway. If he had to be guarded 5 around the clock by an inmate, then he should 6 have - he should have been - he should have 7 stayed on watch. Because apparently, that says 8 to me that you're not secure in the fact that 9 you don't feel that he's not capable of 10 committing suicide. So why would you take him 11 off of watch if he needs 24-hour watch? And if 12 that was the case, then why didn't they put him 13 on Ten South where he would have had cameras on 14 him all day and all night, 24 hours a day. A 15 staff member watching him 24 hours, 7 days a 16 week. I mean you had El Chapo here. El Chapo 17 didn't commit suicide. They had extra 18 lieutenants on him 24 hours. They had all 19 kinds of extra staff on him 24 hours a day, 20 seven days a week. So -. 21 : Sure. And you had 22 mentioned that before. 23 : So why wasn't -? 24 : You thought he -. 25 : So why wasn't Epstein EFTA00061507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 treated - why was he treated any differently. 2 : Because those are for 3 SAMS inmates. But that's a different - that's 4 a different story. So point being though, you 5 just answered you did not know that he was 6 required to have a cellmate and you also did 7 not know that he didn't have a cellmate, 8 correct? 9 : Jeffrey Epstein was 10 high profile. He was a rich inmate. So that 11 in a lot of ways made him victim to a lot of 12 things. So Ten South would have been the 13 perfect place for him to be. 14 : Okay. And I'm not going 15 to argue with that. That's a great opinion. 16 And that's duly noted. But the question to 17 this is you - or the answer I believe you 18 provided is you said you did not know that he 19 was required to have a cellmate, correct? 20 : I did not know 21 Jeffrey Epstein was required to have a cellie. 22 And I did not know that his cellie had left. 23 : Okay. 24 : I didn't even know 25 who his cellie was. EFTA00061508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 : And when you did a round 2 in the SHU on August 10th, 2019, did you 3 actually look into Jeffrey Epstein's cell to 4 see if there was anyone in there? 5 : No I did not. 6 : No. And why not? 7 : Because I didn't - 8 that was - what was the reason for me to do 9 that? And it wasn't just Epstein that was 10 here. We're responsible for every inmate in 11 this building. 12 : Right. So did you -? 13 : If I look in his 14 cell, I've got to look - you know? 15 : And weren't you supposed 16 to -? 17 : I'm just not going to 18 look in his cell without looking in everybody's 19 cell. 20 : When you certified that 21 you conducted a round in the SHU, weren't you 22 supposed to do a round of inmates? 23 : I was not required to 24 go into the ranges and check on the inmates in 25 the ranges. EFTA00061509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. So when you 2 certified on It says that you certify on 3 August 10th, 2019 at 5:21 that you conducted a 4 round in the SHU. What is your understanding - 5 ? So here's your -. I'm giving you this where 6 it says it's the Federal Bureau of Prisons of 7 Trulntel Supervisory Rounds. So the start date 8 8/9/2019 and the 8/10/2019. And this, if 9 you'll notice, the top here it shows your name. 10 It says there's two rounds here conducted. One 11 was on 8/9/2019 at 5:14 a.m. And the other one 12 was 8/10/2019 at 5:21 a.m. Are these entries 13 that you would have made? 14 : It's possible. 15 : If you hadn't made it who 16 would have made it? 17 : I don't know who 18 would have made it. 19 : Do you make entries of 20 rounds in Trulntel? 21 : I do make entries 22 into Trulntel concerning the rounds of inmates, 23 that's correct. 24 : Okay. And then here is 25 the actual 30-minute round sheets on 8/10. Is EFTA00061510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE r i 1 this your signature right there? 2 : Yes, that's my 3 signature. 4 : Saying that you conducted 5 a round in the SHU. 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. So what is your 8 understanding of these two certifications that 9 you made? What did those - what does that 10 round consist of to you? 11 : That meant that I 12 went and I visited SHU. 13 : So you visited SHU 14 instead of conducting a round in SHU? 15 : I don't - I don't - I 16 didn't - I don't conduct rounds in any unit. 17 mean I go, I visit with the officers, I sign - 18 I speak with them, make sure that they're okay. 19 And if something occurs that requires me to go 20 into the range and investigate it, yes, I do. 21 Sometimes if the count was announced. There 22 were random times when I would check the 23 officers' count. Or I would stand at the gate 24 and stand there while they counted or something 25 like that. But no, there was no - there was no EFTA00061511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 - nothing formal thing that we were required to 2 make - literally make rounds in SHU. 3 : Are you aware that -? 4 : As far as doing - as 5 far as the ranges and talking to the - talking 6 to the inmates or anything like that. 7 : So are you aware that 8 other lieutenants do rounds when the visit - 9 especially the SHU - but they actually conduct 10 a round in the SHU. 11 : And they can do that. 12 : But you do not believe 13 that you were required to do that? 14 : I said, at the time, 15 we weren't required to do that. 16 : Okay. So now you are but 17 then you weren't? 18 : We're talking about 19 then. 20 : No-no-no. I'm asking. 21 That's a genuine question. So you are required 22 to do a round now? 23 : I don't know what 24 they're required to do now. Because I'm not in 25 the lieutenant's office right now. EFTA00061512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 : Okay. What about after 2 the - since the Epstein incident on August 3 10th, 2019, at any time afterwards did they say 4 that you had to start doing rounds of the 5 inmates when you conducted rounds? 6 : No. 7 : So they've never told you 8 that? 9 : No. 10 : And prior to that, you've 11 never done rounds? With inmates? 12 : Like I just said. If 13 there was something - if there was a reason for 14 me to go around and make rounds or to go into a 15 particular range in SHU, sure. At night when 16 the inmates are sleeping. When the inmates - 17 when it's quiet and it's nice and quiet and 18 there's nothing going on or the officers aren't 19 indicating to me that they're having an issue 20 or a problem, no. There's no - there was no 21 reason for me to enter the range and go into 22 the ranges. I mean I'm confident that my 23 officers that are on the posts are doing their 24 jobs effectively. 25 : Now is that a confidence EFTA00061513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 that was misplaced then? Since people were not 2 doing rounds or counts during your - when you 3 were the ops lieutenant? 4 : I'm not going to say 5 that it was misplaced, but I know how tired the 6 staff members were at that time. So anything 7 could have happened. 8 : Okay. 9 : A staff member could 10 have died during that time. So I'm not going 11 to say it was misplaced. These were not crappy 12 officers. 13 : Okay. 14 : Officer was new, 15 but she was - she spent time with seasoned 16 staff and officers that she knew were good at 17 what they did to get trained. Officer 18 was a good officer. Officer stood by 19 Epstein's door the whole night. Stood there. 20 He didn't even take a seat. He had a seat 21 right there and could have observed him through 22 the window. He stayed in his cell the night 23 that he attempted suicide the whole night. 24 : You mean on July 23rd, 25 2019? EFTA00061514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 : On July 23rd that was 2 the date that he attempted suicide, yes. 3 : Okay, but you're not 4 talking about the day 5 : I have worked - 1 6 have worked numerous times with and I 7 worked numerous times with Officer They 8 weren't - they weren't neglectful. They 9 weren't the type of officers that just didn't 10 care. 11 : Okay. So your 12 understanding was you weren't supposed to do 13 rounds of the inmates. 14 : My understanding was 15 that there wasn't a requirement for me to go 16 around to each individual cell and check on the 17 - and check on the inmates -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- as far as 20 something being written in policy or a 21 procedure or something like that. Or being 22 told. 23 : Now this round sheet that 24 the staff members have to fill out and which 25 you said you had signed. Where is that EFTA00061515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 located? 2 : At the desk. 3 : So they kept it at the 4 desk instead of on the range? 5 : On the range. And at 6 other places it's in the range. When it's in 7 the range, you know you got to go up in the 8 range and physically sign it. So that 9 encourages you to make rounds in SHU. 10 : Is that - and also for 11 the lieutenants? 12 : And every place that 13 I have been, as a lieutenant, and even when I 14 was an officer. That round sheet is in the 15 range. And it's in the back of the range. So 16 that by the time you get there, you've already 17 walked past the cells. 18 : And that's the same for - 19 20 : So you have no 21 choice. 22 : That's the same for the 23 lieutenants though, correct? They also have to 24 sign them there so they can do the - sign the 25 round sheet? EFTA00061516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 : At the other places? 2 : Right. 3 : Yes. Because they 4 don't bring the count - those sheets aren't 5 even supposed to be removed out of the ranges. 6 So yes, it's a required - in order to sign it, 7 you have to go into the range. 8 : So why were - was this 9 round sheet kept on the desk and officers -? 10 : Because that's where 11 they were. They weren't posted in the ranges. 12 : But weren't they supposed 13 to be on the ranges though? 14 : No, they weren't 15 supposed to be in the ranges. No. No, they 16 were never in the ranges. They have never been 17 in the ranges to my recollection since I've 18 been here. 19 : So not even since the 20 Epstein matter? These -. 21 : Oh I don't -. The 22 times that I was up there before I was pulled 23 down from my post, I never saw them in the 24 range. 25 : You know you keep - EFTA00061517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 you've mentioned this a couple times. Are you 2 not working your regular duty? Have you been 3 pulled off of -? 4 : I have been - I was 5 pulled off my post by because I would 6 not let him yell at me and call me a liar. And 7 when I stepped out of the -. I told him I, you 8 know, I'm not. I'm not going to do this. And 9 he told me if I left - if I walked out - he was 10 going to put a case on me and pull me off my 11 post. And that's what he did. 12 : How long ago did that 13 happen? 14 : That happened I think 15 like April or something of last year. 16 : Of 2020? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. So from August 19 10th, 2019 to April of 2020, you were still 20 working, correct, as a -- 21 : That's correct. 22 : -- your normal duties. 23 So between that time, were these round sheets 24 ever changed to be located down range? 25 : I don't ever remember EFTA00061518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 being in the range. 2 : All right. So to your 3 recollection, those were always on the desk and 4 MCC is just different than all the other BOP 5 institutions? 6 : I mean you putting it 7 That's just the way that they did things 8 here. I mean you making it sound like, you 9 know, out of all places I have been this place 10 does things differently. It does. And it does 11 in a lot of ways which is why we're in the 12 predicament that we're in. Because there are a 13 lot of things that are done here. And if you 14 don't work here, I guess it's hard for you to 15 believe. But there are a lot of people here 16 who can attest to that, most especially people 17 who have been at other institutions and have 18 come here. There are a lot of things that they 19 do here that they don't do at other places. 20 : Okay. What's the 21 hotlist? 22 : The hotlist is like a 23 list of inmates that have like special 24 circumstances and stuff like that. I haven't 25 seen a hotlist in a while though. EFTA00061519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 : All right. As the ops 2 lieutenant on -. 3 : They have a poster 4 picture file here. 5 : On August 9th and 10th or 6 2019, would you have reviewed the hotlist in 7 the SHU as part of your duties? 8 : No. 9 : No? So that's not 10 something when you go in and check on the staff 11 members, you would talk to them about the 12 hotlist? 13 : No. 14 : No? Okay. Are you 15 required - are you aware that the hotlist would 16 list the people that were required to have 17 cellmates? 18 : No. 19 : You didn't - you don't 20 know that. Okay. All right. So since 21 Epstein's cellmate was listed as WAB and 22 pre-removed from the MCC at approximately 8:30 23 a.m. 24 : Oh there. If he was 25 WAB with all belongings, that's an indication EFTA00061520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that he's leaving. 2 : Yeah, I know. He was 3 WAS. He left in the morning of August 9, 2010 4 - sorry, August 9th, 2019 as WAB. And then he 5 was listed as pre-remove on all the 6 documentation. So they removed him from the 7 institution. What should have happened? If he 8 was required to have a cellmate? If the SHU 9 OIC brings him down to R&D as a WAB. So he's 10 got all of his belongings. What should have 11 happened if it is known that Epstein's 12 cellmate, , and everybody knows that 13 Epstein - and I'm not talking about you - 14 everybody that brings him down knows that 15 Epstein is required to have a cellmate. What 16 should have happened at the time that the OIC 17 of the SHU brought - Epstein cellmate - 18 down to R&D as a WAB? 19 : First, they should 20 have ensured that he was actually leaving and 21 never coming back. If they were aware of that 22 information. And they should have put forth 23 that action to notify someone that his cellmate 24 was leaving. If they knew that he was supposed 25 to have a cellie and they knew for a fact that EFTA00061521 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 this inmate was leaving and not coming back. 2 : Okay. So when you said 3 ensure that he's leaving and not coming back. 4 He's listed as WAS. Doesn't that indicate that 5 he's leaving and not coming back? 6 : That indicates that 7 he's leaving. He's scheduled to leave. You 8 can have - something can go wrong and the 9 inmate could come back. It doesn't happen 10 often but there are inmates who have been 11 placed on pre-remove and a lot of things that 12 somehow has ended up coming back - have shows 13 back up on the roster and placed back in the 14 housing unit or somewhere for whatever reason. 15 I don't question R&D as to why that happened. 16 If there's an inmate that shows -. 17 : Well R&D said he was 18 gone. R&D clearly says no, he was listed as 19 : Okay. 20 : pre-removed. He was 21 not coming back. 22 : Okay. 23 : So my question is the OIC 24 or SHU brings him down to R&D as a WAB. R&D is 25 already saying yeah, this guy's gone. He's EFTA00061522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 being transferred. You saw the documentation. 2 I already showed that to you. It shows he's 3 being transferred to a different institution. 4 : That don't mean that 5 they had that discussion with whoever brought 6 them down. 7 : Right. 8 : That doesn't even say 9 that whoever brought him down even knew what a 10 WAB was or pre-remove. 11 : The person who says they 12 absolutely know what a WAB was, they know he 13 was with all belongings. 14 : Okay. Well I guess 15 you should be asking them then. 16 : No-no-no. I'm just 17 asking as an ops lieutenant around that time 18 period. What should have that person done? 19 : It depends. 20 : This isn't reflected or. 21 you. I'm guessing you were one of the 22 supervisors. 23 : I mean I'm not - I'm 24 not - I'm not saying that it's reflected. I'm 25 not even thinking in that manner because it has EFTA00061523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 absolutely nothing to do with me. I don't know 2 what's in the guy's head. I don't know what 3 he's thinking. I don't know what he knows. 4 don't know what information he's aware of. I 5 mean you would have to pose that question to 6 him. Or her. And let - have them give you an 7 answer. I mean. 8 : Okay. We can move on. 9 So we already talked about the count slips. So 10 you only were involved with the 12:00 a.m. 11 count on August 10, 2019? 12 : Why you keep asking 13 me that? 14 : Just because it's - I'm 15 going in order now. I'm just saying you 16 weren't involved with any other counts? And 17 we're not going to get back into it. I just 18 want to make sure that I'm asking you that this 19 is the only count that you were actually 20 involved with. 21 : The 12:00 count is 22 the count that I took. 23 : Okay. And you weren't 24 involved with the other counts? 25 : I don't be -. No. EFTA00061524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 There's no reason. The control center takes 2 the other counts after that. 3 : Okay. 4 : We're only required 5 to take one count. We have to take one count 6 during our shift. And we get to select what 7 count that is. Because we never know what 8 we're going to be doing. 9 : And you were 10 : Especially on morning 11 watch. 12 : And you said you 13 specifically recall speaking with about 14 being on dry cell? 15 : I could say to you 16 today I'm certain it was 17 : You're certain you spoke 18 with 19 : I'm almost certain it 20 was 21 : All right. So -. 22 : So the last time, she 23 mentioned that it was a male first. You 24 mentioned it was a male but you weren't sure. 25 But you believed it was EFTA00061525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Exactly. : All right. So you're 3 almost certain it was but you're not 4 certain it was ? Is that what you're 5 saying? Could it have been 6 : I don't think it was 7 8 : So you think it was 9 . Because if -. 10 : I - I believe it was 11 - I want to say it was 12 : Okay. It was 13 And can you recall what that conversation 14 entailed? 15 : I remember the 16 conversation was about there being an inmate in 17 R&D and I think he mentioned how they were 18 listed on the count slip. How they number that 19 was on the count slip. Because - and then the 20 question arised as to - arose as to how many 21 inmates are, do you have in SHU - period. How 22 many inmates are supposed to be up there? 23 Because I wanted to make sure that we knew what 24 the base count was. And where is this other 25 guy? What is he doing there? Things to that EFTA00061526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 effect. But I also wanted to go check and make 2 sure myself so I could see what was actually 3 going on. So I would know what was - what the 4 situation and the circumstances were. 5 : So you physically went to 6 R&D and saw? 7 : At some point. 1 8 think after the - I think I went - after the 9 count, I think I called. I don't know. When I 10 made - because I know after the count I went up 11 to R&D and physical saw the guy up there, 12 talked to the officer, saw that he was on - 1 13 think he was on dry cell or something to that 14 effect. And but I think before that we made 15 phone calls to make sure that the inmate - 16 because I want to say one of the - somebody in 17 SHU knew. I mean somebody in control was aware 18 that the inmate was in R&D as well. So once we 19 verified that the inmate was in R&D, he was in 20 dry cell, then we can move forward and make the 21 change because if he was on dry cell in R&D, 22 then that's where he was. That was the 23 decision that somebody had made and because I 24 don't even think there was any room. There was 25 any room anywhere for him to go. I don't think EFTA00061527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 there was any room in SHU for him to be on dry 2 cell. And there wasn't any room on two. I 3 can't remember. 4 : All right. And then - 5 per your request, we're not going to go back 6 into it. I'm just going to ask you to look at 7 this to just let me know if this is actually 8 your handwriting. Any of it for what I'm 9 highlighting here for these count slips. These 10 are the 10:00 p.m. count slips. Are any of 11 that your handwriting? 12 : No. 13 : So nothing. Even the 14 plus one? 15 : None. 16 : None? Okay. 17 : You're just 18 determined -- 19 : Well, no - well -- 20 : -- to somehow make me 21 22 : -- the person who took 23 this count said you were the person that he 24 checked with to see about this. He said he 25 couldn't remember if the plus ones were his or EFTA00061528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 someone else's. But he said that the ops 2 lieutenant is the one that I would have gotten 3 the approval to do this with. He was confident 4 of that. 5 : Okay. Well that 6 don't mean that I was that ops lieutenant. 7 : You were the only ops 8 lieutenant on duty. 9 : Just because I was 10 the only ops lieutenant on duty, those counts 11 are verified prior to them being conducted. 12 : Well your name was 13 mentioned. 14 : Yeah, but I wasn't 15 the lieutenant that was here when the inmate 16 was placed in R&D. 17 : But you were the 18 lieutenant here when these counts slips were 19 collected and reviewed. 20 : Because the count is 21 going to go on irregardless [sic]. You know 22 unless something is going on in the institution 23 and we call control and say hey, hold off on 24 the count until I call you back or whatever. 25 Until we do some type of instruction to hold EFTA00061529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 off on the count. The count is going to 2 continue because those are the times in which 3 the count is supposed to be done. That's - 4 there is now way around that. 5 : I understand. 6 : Except for something 7 that's going on in the institution. 8 : But he - what he said was 9 ops lieutenant gave me her 10 approval to do this. 11 : I did not give nobody 12 no approval. If that was the case, why would I 13 even bother to mess with the count? Why would 14 I even bother to check - to move the inmate? 15 : This was all -- 16 : If -. 17 the questions we have. 18 : Okay. 19 : That's why we had to 20 follow-up with you. 21 : Okay. If that's the 22 way you was going it at 10:00, why would I go 23 through all the trouble of changing it at 24 12:00? 25 : Well that's why our EFTA00061530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 theory was that you actually figured it out at 2 10:00 and just forgot to make the change. And 3 that's why you were table to -- 4 : Wow. 5 : -- you were table to fix 6 it so quickly. 7 : Well your theory is 8 wrong because that's not even how -. Why would 9 I do that? Why would I? If that was - if that 10 was -. 11 : Well because 12 doesn't - says he never had a conversation with 13 you. So we're thinking, oh well on the 10:00 14 count, there's actually these plus one numbers. 15 Maybe she actually had the conversation with 16 . Does that logic make sense to you 17 where I'm going with that? 18 : No, that doesn't make 19 sense to me where you're going with that. 20 Because you're making an assumption. And 21 you're trying to put together a puzzle that's 22 not even fitting. If I went through the 23 trouble of finding out all this information on 24 this inmate so that I could adequately place 25 him right. Why would I forget - why would I EFTA00061531 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 wait until - why would I say okay I'm not going 2 to do this right now. The time of the count is 3 the time of the count. And whatever happens at 4 the time of that count is supposed to be 5 reflected. So why would I let - why would I 6 tell somebody to put 73 plus something. What 7 is that? What is that? 8 : Exactly. That's what 9 we're trying to figure out. 10 : Okay. Well you need 11 to call somebody else in. 12 : So go back to that person 13 say we spoke to and she said 14 absolutely not. She did not provide you that? 15 : I mean you can go 16 back to and talk to however and tell them 17 whatever. You know? What I'm telling you is 18 there would be no reason for me to wait for two 19 hours or three hours before making a change to 20 something and to have them void. Just say 21 okay, well you know, go ahead, and do that. 22 That to me -. 23 : Yeah, but like you said, 24 you get busy though. 25 : The ten -. EFTA00061532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 : If all it was that you 2 just got busy, just like you said the reason 3 why -- 4 : Okay, so what? 5 -- you didn't send out 6 the activities report and the lieutenant's log 7 until 9:30 a.m. on August 10th was because you 8 got busy you said. 9 : Okay, so why do - why 10 is everything on me? Why is - why are you - 11 you know you've just -. 12 : Not everything is on you. 13 You're just taking it that way. 14 : You've put 15 : We're asking these same 16 questions to -- 17 : No because you -. 18 a lot of people. 19 : No, because you're 20 asking me stuff that occurred on day watch, 21 stuff that occurred on evening watch. The 22 10:00 count is the responsibility of whatever 23 occurred on that shift. If it pertains to the 24 10:00 count, that would have been referenced 25 with the person who was there who was there at EFTA00061533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : That was you. 104 3 : -- who was there 4 until 10:00. 5 : You relieved the person. 6 You already said probably around 9:30 p.m. You 7 were the only ops lieutenant on duty from 10:00 8 p.m. on. 9 : I wasn't the person 10 who put the inmate in R&D. 11 : Right. 12 : So why would I be the 13 one making the determination -? 14 : But you were the one 15 involved with these counts. 16 : At 12:00. 17 : Yes, but you were the ops 18 lieutenant on duty at 10:00 p.m. 19 : If I wasn't aware 20 that the inmate was in R&D at 10:00, how could 21 I advise somebody -- 22 : You have answered our 23 question already. 24 : -- about the 10:00 25 count? EFTA00061534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 : Okay, you're saying you 2 didn't know it. So you did not learn this 3 until 12:35. And you did not authorize those 4 things on that 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? 5 : No I did not. Have 6 you talked to -? I mean you may want to talk 7 to some other people because -. 8 : No. 9 : You know you -. 10 : Can I ask a different line of 11 questioning on this