DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF MICHAEL THOMAS OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 17, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00063613 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: MICHAEL THOMAS OTHER APPEARANCES: EFTA00063614 3 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is . I'm a senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 7 employee Michael Thomas is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is June 17, 2021 and the time is 11 10:07 a.m. This interview is being conducted 12 at the Law Offices of located at 13 17 Academy Street, Suite 305, Newark, New 14 Jersey. Also present are DOJ OIG Special Agent 15 BOP employee Michael Thomas, Mr. 16 Thomas' attorney, from the Law 17 Offices of , and 18 , Union Representative and Officer 19 Specialist at the MCC. This interview will be 20 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 21 . Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 24 Special Agent 25 EFTA00063615 4 1 : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 2 3 : I am 4 attorney , Law Offices of 5 6 7 , President of Local 3148. 8 MR. THOMAS: Michael Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S. 9 : Thank you all. Mr. 10 Thomas, you are here today as a subject in this 11 DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation 12 concerns your alleged misconduct to include 13 allegations of false statements, job 14 performance failure, security failure, and 15 reporting false information. This is an 16 official DOJ OIG investigation and you are 17 being asked to voluntarily provide answers to 18 our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 19 interview with the DOJ OIG? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 21 : Thank you, sir. Now we 22 have a form here for our employees who provide 23 voluntary answers to our questions. It's the 24 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 25 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to EFTA00063616 5 1 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 2 Voluntary Basis. It says: You are being asked 3 to provide information as part of an 4 investigation being conducted by the Office of 5 the Inspector General. This investigation is 6 being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 7 General Act of 1978 as amended. This 8 investigation pertains to your alleged false 9 statements, job performance failure, security 10 failure, and reporting false information. This 11 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 12 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 13 action will be taken against you if you choose 14 not to answer questions. Any statement you 15 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 16 criminal proceedings or agency proceedings, 17 disciplinary proceedings, or both. And 18 obviously, we have the DPA. Then there's a 19 waiver section. I understand the Warnings and 20 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 21 make a statement and answer questions. No 22 promises or threats have been made to me and no 23 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 24 against me. Now if you want to take a look or 25 anybody - the attorney or anybody - wants to EFTA00063617 6 1 take a look. That was read verbatim. But if 2 you agree, there is a section that says 3 employee signature. And then you can just 4 print your name. 5 : Just print your name right 6 below it. 7 : Thank you, Mr. Thomas, 8 for signing. I am going to sign as the 9 signature of the Office of the Inspector 10 General Special Agent. Again, this is 11 and I'm going to print my name. 12 Special Agent , can you sign as the 13 signature of witness. 14 : This is Special Agent 15 I'm signing as signature of witness. 16 : Thank you, sir. Special 17 Agent , can you just fill in the date and 18 time and then write in the place. So the date 19 is again, 6/17/2021 and the time is 10:11 a.m. 20 Thank you. Okay. And since there's a union 21 representative present, I have a form for you 22 as well if you just want to take a look and 23 review that. I'm not going to read that out 24 loud for the record. 25 : I've read them many a EFTA00063618 7 1 times. 2 : You don't need to 3 (Indiscernible *00:05:09) all that. Thank you, 4 for signing where you said that 5 you certify that you appeared as an official 6 OIG investigative interview as a union 7 representative and was provided a copy of this 8 advisory and signing it and dating it. I am 9 going to sign where it says name of OIG special 10 agent. It actually doesn't ask for my 11 signature, so I will first print and then sign 12 next to it. I'm dating it 6/17/2021. 13 -: , is someone on 14 the line? 15 : Well I was just setting up 16 a conference so could dial in. No 17 one's there. 18 : Okay. 19 : Oh, okay. Is he going to 20 be dialing in? 21 : Yeah, he's going to join us 22 shortly. 23 24 25 : Okay. : Okay. : That's nothing. EFTA00063619 8 1 : So shortly, attorney 2 will be dialing in. Alright. 3 So did you understand the OIG form Mr. Thomas? 4 : Thomas. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes I did. 6 : Great. Thank you. 7 before starting, I would like to place you 8 under oath. Can you raise your right hand 9 please? Mr. Thomas, do you swear to tell the 10 truth and nothing but the truth during this 11 interview? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I do. 13 : Thank you, sir. If 14 there's anything that you don't understand or 15 any kind of questions, please just ask for me 16 to uh 17 MR. THOMAS: I surely will. 18 : Yeah. If you don't, I'll 19 rephrase it. 20 MR. THOMAS: The language where if I don't 21 understand, I will say something. 22 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 23 Alright. So what's your current home address? 24 MR. THOMAS: 25 EFTA00063620 9 1 : Thank you., sir. And 2 what's your date of birth? 3 MR. THOMAS: 4 : Do you happen to have any 5 kind of ID on you just so we 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : -- know we're talking to 8 the right person? Okay. I'm looking at a III 9 auto driver license and the name on it 10 is Michael A. Thomas and the picture does match 11 the person sitting in front of me. Okay. 12 What's your highest level of education? 13 MR. THOMAS: Some college. I completed 14 high school. 15 : Okay. How much college 16 did you have? 17 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't add to a little 18 bit. Correspondence courses when I was in the 19 military and everything like that. 20 : Okay. So was there like 21 a course of study that you -? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. 23 : No? Just required. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. Just like basic courses 25 and stuff like that. EFTA00063621 10 1 : And around when was that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 2002, 2001. I'm thinking 3 here and there. 4 : Sure. Was it all from 5 one institution? 6 MR. THOMAS: It was some online courses 7 and stuff like that that I took. 8 : Okay. Cool. While you 9 were with the military? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, while I was in the 11 military. It was all done while I was in the 12 military. 13 : Perfect. And what did 14 you do prior to working with the BOP? 15 MR. THOMAS: I was at a Target - back 16 room. 17 : Okay. And how long did 18 you do that? 19 MR. THOMAS: I did that for three months 20 before I got this job here. 21 : So it was primarily the 22 military previously? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I got out of the 24 military in '06 and then I started this in '07. 25 : Great. Thank you. EFTA00063622 11 1 MR. THOMAS: Started with the BOP. Sorry. 2 : Thank you for your 3 service. When were you in the military? 4 MR. THOMAS: I started - I went in '98 to 5 2006. 6 : And what branch? 7 MR. THOMAS: Army. 8 : Army? 9 MR. THOMAS: Active duty the whole time. 10 : And when you -. Sorry. 11 MR. THOMAS: 12 : Okay. So we're, uh - the 13 attorney is getting on the phone with Mr. 14 . And with the Army, when you got out 15 of the Army, what was your rank? 16 MR. THOMAS: E4. 17 : E4 sergeant? Is that a 18 sergeant? 19 MR. THOMAS: No, that's a specialist. 20 : That's a specialist? 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 : Okay. What was your -? 23 MR. THOMAS: Highest rank attainable E5 24 (Indiscernible *00:08:42) 25 : Okay. So you got to E5 EFTA00063623 12 1 and then came back down to E4. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 : Was it honorary 4 discharge? 5 MR. THOMAS: General discharge under 6 honorable conditions. 7 : Okay. Great. And when 8 you were in the Army, what was it that you were 9 -? 10 MR. THOMAS: My MOS? 11 : Yes. 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Sorry if I answered that but 15 -. 16 : No-no-no. Please. I was 17 trying to figure out the word to use. 18 MR. THOMAS: MOS. 19 : Perfect. And how long 20 have you served with the Federal Bureau of 21 Prisons? 22 MR. THOMAS: As of April 1, 14 years. 23 : Fourteen years? And what 24 was your enter on duty date? 25 MR. THOMAS: April 1, 2007. EFTA00063624 13 1 : Okay. And when did you 2 graduate from BOP training? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know the exact date. 4 : But you did attend? 5 MR. THOMAS: It's usually a year of 6 probationary or something like that. Oh, 7 you're talking about the training at FLETC? 8 : At FLETC. Correct. So 9 the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. 10 MR. THOMAS: November of '07. 11 : Okay. And that was for 12 correctional officer training? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 : Perfect, sir. And when 15 and where was your first assignment with the 16 BOP? 17 MR. THOMAS: My whole career has been at 18 the MCC. 19 : Okay. That makes it 20 easy. And what positions have you held while 21 you were there? Just briefly. 22 MR. THOMAS: Correctional officer and 23 material handler specialist. 24 : Just those two? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00063625 14 1 : Okay. And what does a 2 material handler specialist do? What does that 3 mean? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a -. 5 : What are your job duties 6 and responsibilities? 7 MR. THOMAS: It's the commissary trust 8 fund. It's the trust fund in the BOP. 9 : Okay. Does that mean 10 that you handle -? 11 MR. THOMAS: You deal with different 12 positions from laundry, commissary, back room 13 supply, and that's mainly - yeah, that's mainly 14 it. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 17 : And what was your grade 18 level? 19 MR. THOMAS: WS4 - WS4 Step 5 I guess. 20 : Okay. What's your 21 current cell phone number? 22 MR. THOMAS: 23 : Perfect. And we won't 24 contact you. We'll go through your attorney. 25 But it's just a question we ask. And your EFTA00063626 15 1 current email address? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 3 : Thank you, sir. And when 4 did you last work at the MCC? Physically 5 present? 6 MR. THOMAS: Um, August 10th. 7 : 2019? 8 MR. THOMAS: 2019. I'm sorry. 9 : And did you work both on 10 August 9th and August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 : Okay. And was that in 13 the SHU from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. on both 14 days? 15 MR. THOMAS: On both days? What do you 16 mean -? Yes. Yes. Yes. 17 : So on August 9th, 18 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 19 MR. THOMAS: The night to -. 20 : Then again August 10th 21 8:00 a.m. - or 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. And 22 that was in the special housing unit? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 : Also known as the SHU. 25 Who was your supervisor when you last worked at EFTA00063627 16 1 the MCC? Or did you have one in particular? 2 MR. THOMAS: My supervisor is 3 • • 4 MR. THOMAS: 5 : 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : Great. Thank you. So 8 just briefly, overall, what training would you 9 attend while -. So I know you said you did the 10 CO training down at FLETC. But what other 11 training would you conduct while you're with 12 the BOP? 13 MR. THOMAS: That I would conduct? 14 : Yeah. Like what training 15 were you provided when you were with the BOP? 16 Like annual training -. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, annual training. 18 Annual training that's usually done sometime - 19 well it last from January to sometimes March 20 from what I can remember. But that's annual 21 training. AART I think it's called. 22 : Annual Refresher 23 Training? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. There you go. 25 : Okay. Great. Is there EFTA00063628 17 1 any other training that they would provide? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 : Like did you ever attend 4 like SHU quarterly training or anything like 5 that? 6 MR. THOMAS: I have when I was off. So 7 yes, I've done SHU quarterly training. Yes. 8 : Okay. So would you do 9 the annual training every year? 10 MR. THOMAS: Annual training is every 11 year. Yes. 12 : And what would be the 13 last time you think you conducted SHU training? 14 SHU quarterly training? 15 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't remember. 16 : No, that's fine. 17 Alright. We have - this is actually your 18 training records. Do you want to just -? I'm 19 not going to ask you like to certify that these 20 things are you know - it's just to look at it 21 and say for the most part, does that look like 22 the training that you conducted. It shows from 23 the most recent to -. To the uh, through the 24 past. 25 MR. THOMAS: Are these annual refresher EFTA00063629 18 1 training courses or -? 2 : This is just like your 3 training record. We ask like hey, can we have 4 a BOP employee's training record. They print 5 something like this out which just shows that 6 like on these dates were the dates that you 7 completed training. So it looks like you 8 completed the last annual refresher training on 9 4/5, which is - this is the annual refresher 10 training course syllabus. This is the sign-in 11 sheet. So I believe that would be the last 12 time that you conducted your annual refresher 13 training. And like for instance I believe that 14 would be -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 16 : -- your name and would 17 that be your signature next to it? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 : Okay. Great. So just 20 point being, the last time you did conduct 21 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 23 : Awesome. Any time I 24 provide you something, I'm just going to ask 25 for you to initial and date it just so that EFTA00063630 19 1 there's no confusion of what actually was 2 provided to you. And what you actually looked 3 at. And it's not - not certifying to the 4 accuracy of this. It's just certifying that 5 this is what I showed you. 6 MR. THOMAS: Any particular place? 7 : Up top would be great. 8 MR. THOMAS: Sign or initial? 9 : Just initial and date. 10 So again, it's 6/17/21. So I'm going to take 11 that this is not supposed to be connected. I'm 12 going to take just your training records out of 13 this because they've got a lot of your daily 14 assignments in here and stuff. 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 16 : This was all supposed to 17 be attached to that. So what you'll see is 18 just so that we're on the same page is just all 19 the way from 2007 up to '08, '09, 2019. 20 : And when you say training, 21 these were actual classes? 22 : It's just what they have 23 in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a 24 training, they log it in so they can keep a 25 record of what training individuals conducted. EFTA00063631 20 1 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 2 : And for this, the main 3 point for this was that again, you did take the 4 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 5 Any questions on that? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 : Any concerns? 8 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 9 : Great. Thank you, sir. 10 Can you just kind of go through and find the 11 Daily Schedule? There we go. His roster would 12 be in there. Alright. And at that annual 13 refresher training, like just roughly what do 14 you recall that you had learned there? 15 MR. THOMAS: It's a bunch of different 16 classes. 17 : Like ethics. Correct? 18 MR. THOMAS: It goes from somebody 19 speaking to somebody putting something up on 20 the teleprompter and then you're reading off 21 it's a variety of classes depending on how the 22 instructor at that time would present the 23 class. 24 : Okay. Great. Let me 25 see. So just to bring us back to this. It EFTA00063632 21 1 looks like the way that the BOP system is - 2 this report that I just showed you. It looks 3 like on 4/5 there's a ton of different classes. 4 And that just looks like probably what the 5 annual refresher training covered. It would be 6 like ethics, infectious disease, international 7 security, key control, air spray, prison rape, 8 report writing, self-defense, Weapons of Mass 9 Destruction. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. But at different 11 times. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. THOMAS: They're a bunch of different 14 classes. 15 : Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. 16 And did they ever, at the MCC, did they ever 17 provide you with like post orders and things 18 like that? You know like -. 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Post orders. 20 : Post orders and their 21 guidance and polices and things. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 : Okay. Awesome. Is there 24 something that when they provided you did they 25 say that you had to review them or they just EFTA00063633 22 1 give them to you? How does that work? 2 MR. THOMAS: They're posted on every 3 housing unit. And -. 4 : They're all -. So when 5 you go to a housing unit, the orders are 6 actually in there? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. They're in a book. 8 : They're in a book? 9 MR. THOMAS: One of those books. 10 : Okay. And do they ask 11 you to like review them or how -? I'm just 12 wondering how MCC goes about it. What do they 13 do with making sure their correctional officers 14 know what the policies and procedures are in 15 their institution? 16 MR. THOMAS: You have to sign them when 17 you go to You're supposed to sign them when 18 you go to a post. 19 : Okay. So like if, for 20 instance -. 21 MR. THOMAS: It's on your own to review 22 them and everything like that. 23 : I got you. So have you 24 ever been provided, reviewed, and signed the 25 special housing unit order posts? EFTA00063634 23 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 : Okay. Do you remember - 3 would that be like every time you're in there 4 or would that be like initial time? Or how 5 does that work? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. It's If I'm not 7 mistaken, I think it's just to whenever you go 8 in there. The one time you go in there, it's - 9 10 : So like the first time? 11 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter you have to, if 12 I'm not mistaken, you have to sign it. 13 : Alright. 14 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter. So like if 15 you go in there between February to April. The 16 first initial time you go in there, you sign 17 it. And that was it. It's not something you 18 sign every day. 19 : Right. But like for 20 instance in 2019, would you have been provided 21 it and had to sign it? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 23 : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: It definitely had to be in 25 there somewhere. EFTA00063635 24 1 : And you did? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure - . I don't know. 3 : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 5 : But you have been 6 provided 7 MR. THOMAS: I have signed them before 8 yes. But I don't know if I (Indiscernible 9 *00:18:34). 10 : Sure. No problem. What 11 is the BOP of MCC policy on conducting counts 12 and rounds? Just broadly speaking. What you're 13 like sentence or two. 14 MR. THOMAS: My interpretation of it? I 15 don't. 16 : Your understanding of 17 let's start with rounds. What are you supposed 18 to do with rounds at the MCC? And we can even 19 move it directly to the special housing unit so 20 we don't get confused. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 : In the special housing 23 unit, how are you supposed to conduct a round? 24 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to conduct 25 the rounds every 30 minutes not at the same EFTA00063636 25 1 time but roughly about every 30 minutes. 2 : So it's every 30 minutes 3 like -. 4 MR. THOMAS: Not every 30 minutes on the 5 hour or anything like that. Try to -. 6 : So like a 30 to 40=minute 7 gap. There's like a 10-minute I guess window 8 that you're supposed to conduct it within every 9 30 minutes. Is that right? So it's not 10 exactly like -. 11 MR. THOMAS: It's not exactly -. 12 : 8:00, 8:30, 9:00. 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's not exactly 8:00, 14 8:30. Just every 30 minutes. So if you go at 15 1:22, then -- 16 : Sure. 17 MR. THOMAS: -- you should go at sometime 18 between 1:52 or whatever the case may be. It's 19 just every 30 minutes. 20 : And is that for a whole 21 24-hour day? Every 30 minutes? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. For every 24-hours. 23 Yes. 24 : Okay. So there's no like 25 you don't have to do it from this time to that EFTA00063637 26 I time. 2 MR. THOMAS: No. It's for a 24-hour day. 3 : And how do you conduct a 4 round? What are you supposed to do when you 5 conduct a round in the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: It depends on the time 7 period. 8 : Can you just explain to 9 that a little bit? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well if you're just walk 11 around. 12 : Do you -? 13 MR. THOMAS: And look in the glass. 14 : Are you supposed to be 15 able to see a person and make sure that they're 16 there? 17 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to see a 18 person and make sure they're there. 19 : And alive and well? 20 MR. THOMAS: Ugh, see human flesh and 21 everything like that. Yes. 22 : Okay. And that they're 23 not in distress or need anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: That they're not -? 25 : They're not in distress EFTA00063638 27 1 or need anything? 2 MR. THOMAS: Under distress and -. Yes. 3 : Okay. And what is a 4 count to your understanding? A cell count. Or 5 an inmate count. In the special housing unit. 6 MR. THOMAS: An institution count? 7 : No. What's the - so when 8 you're working in the special housing unit, do 9 you not have to do a count on the weekdays from 10 4:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 11 5:00 a.m. -- 12 MR. THOMAS: You're doing the institution 13 count. The standard - it's a BOP count. It's 14 an institution count - well I phrase it as an 15 institution count. 16 : So how do you - when 17 you're in the SHU, how do you conduct a count 18 though? 19 MR. THOMAS: Same way you do a round. 20 : Oh. 21 MR. THOMAS: So you just walk around, 22 verify live tissue and everything like that. 23 And you see a person. 24 : Are you supposed to count 25 the numbers this time though? So as opposed to EFTA00063639 28 1 just going - in a round, I'm assuming you don't 2 actually call out the numbers and certify a 3 certain number. You just go through and make 4 sure everybody's okay. With a count, is it - 5 you have to -? 6 MR. THOMAS: In a count, you call out the 7 numbers. And in a round you just verify. 8 : Okay. And then what do 9 you do after you get the numbers in the special 10 housing unit? 11 MR. THOMAS: Tally it up and put it on a 12 piece of paper. 13 : Okay. Like a count slip? 14 MR. THOMAS: The count slips get time on 15 the count slips. 16 : Okay. Great. And were 17 you provided training on conducting rounds and 18 counts at MCC? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 : Okay. When would have 21 you received that training? During the annual 22 refresher training? Annual SHU training? 23 MR. THOMAS: Annuals yes. Annual 24 refresher training. And SHU training. Either 25 or. EFTA00063640 29 1 : Okay. So any other 2 training they would provide on that or are they 3 the two primary times you would get that? 4 MR. THOMAS: That's the two primary times. 5 : Okay. During your time 6 at the MCC, how often would you be assigned to 7 the special housing unit? 8 MR. THOMAS: It depends if it was for 9 overtime. Well besides when, just, well, 10 assigned to be, just assigning for overtime. 11 : So whenever you would 12 conduct overtime you would be there? Or just - 13 ? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well if it was open and 15 that's what was open. Yeah. That's what it 16 would be. 17 : So in your - since 2007 18 through 2019, did you do it fairly regularly? 19 MR. THOMAS: Fairly regularly. I mean -. 20 : So you're pretty familiar 21 with -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm familiar with both from 23 2007 to 2000 I haven't been a correctional 24 officer that whole time. 25 : Sure. EFTA00063641 30 1 MR. THOMAS: I was if I'm not mistaken, I 2 got the material handler position in 2010 or 3 2012 - something in between that time frame? 4 : So I guess from 2007 from 5 the time that you -- 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : You would do it as like 8 as a quarterly posted bid? 9 MR. THOMAS: Oh I never did it as a - I 10 can't recall ever doing it as a 11 : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: I've done SHU more than a few 13 times. 14 : Yeah. 15 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 16 : So point being is you're 17 familiar with the way the SHU is operated? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I'm familiar with how 19 everything goes in the SHU. 20 : Alright. Awesome. So 21 aside from doing the counts and rounds, what 22 other training would they provide you in order 23 to make sure that you were prepared to work in 24 the SHU? Would they provide like suicide 25 prevention training? Things like that? EFTA00063642 31 1 MR. THOMAS: If I'm not mistaken, that's 2 on the ART. If I'm not mistaken, that's on the 3 ART. 4 : Suicide? Is on the ART? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's one of the 6 courses in ART. 7 : Okay. What is? The 8 course in ART? I'm sorry, I'm just trying to 9 10 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you 11 the exact name of the course or anything like 12 that. 13 : What you're saying is ART 14 has a SHU course? Is that what you're saying? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It has -. No. I'm 16 saying it has what you just said a suicide 17 prevention course. I'm sure it's something 18 like that in ART. 19 : Oh, okay. But I was 20 trying to use suicide prevention as like an 21 example of a training that you're received to 22 be able to work in the SHU. What I'm asking is 23 like -. To make sure I could say -. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think that's an 25 actual course to work on the SHU - to work EFTA00063643 32 1 specifically with the SHU. It's just an actual 2 course that they provide at ART. It's not 3 specific to just one housing unit. It's just 4 an annual refresher like -. 5 : SO that's - that specific 6 suicide. So I guess what I'm asking is, what 7 training did they provide to you 8 you could work in the SHU? Like 9 put it this way. During the SHU 10 training, what type 11 provide to you? 12 MR. THOMAS: I 13 all. 14 to make sure - or. Let's quarterly of training would they really don't remember at : You don't remember. 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember often. 16 : No. That's totally fine. 17 MR. THOMAS: Just regular SHU training. 18 : But you have received the 19 suicide prevention training though at the MCC 20 annual refresher training? 21 MR. THOMAS: At ART. 22 Okay. And what just very 23 briefly, what types of things would they teach 24 you at the suicide prevention training? 25 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um. I'm trying - um. EFTA00063644 33 1 It's just training like I don't know what's 2 specific with the training. 3 : Sure. 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a um. They tell you how 5 many happens in a year or in a quarter or 6 something like that. I remember that they tell 7 you cases of how people committed suicide. 8 Sometimes it's signs to watch for suicide. Um. 9 That's basically all I can remember with that. 10 I don't' remember the training exactly. 11 : Sure. That's fine. Now 12 as you said, you worked from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 13 a.m. on both August 9th and August 10th, 14 correct? In the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: August - well it's August 16 10th I think. If I'm not mistaken it's -. 17 : But August 9th and August 18 10th you did 8:00 a.m. till - 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 : I'm sorry. I mean 12 21 a.m. to 8 a.m. on both days. 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Not both days. 23 MR. THOMAS: See this really has me 24 confused. If let's say the shift started at 25 12:00. Usually the shift starts at 0001. EFTA00063645 34 1 : Correct. 2 MR. THOMAS: So if I came in, I came in on 3 the 9th, but the shift didn't start until 4 midnight. It's from midnight to eight in the 5 morning. 6 : Right. So what I'm 7 saying is midnight on August 9th. So you know 8 9 MR. THOMAS: Which is August 10th. 10 : You probably got there on 11 August 8th. 12 MR. THOMAS: No-no-no. So I didn't work 13 . 14 : So here's your daily 15 assignment roster. I just want to make sure. 16 So August 10th, August 9th. It says that you 17 were in the SHU both days. 18 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I do -. 19 : I thought we talked about 20 that earlier. I just wanted to make sure. So 21 at the start of this interview, we talked about 22 -. 23 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I did SHU. I 24 didn't' recall that I did SHU two days in a 25 row. EFTA00063646 35 1 : Right yeah. 2 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 3 : So I don't think you kind 4 of called out maybe the two days leading up but 5 you still did your overtime shift. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all overtime shifts 7 for me. 8 : Yeah, I know. 9 MR. THOMAS: None of this is regular shift 10 for me. This is all overtime for me. 11 : Okay. Great. So just 12 the point being I just wanted to make sure you 13 did work there on both August 9th and August 14 10th from that midnight to 8:00 a.m. shift. 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Okay. Yes. 16 : Awesome. Just because I 17 presented this to you. DO you mind just 18 initialing and dating it? Does that appear to 19 be your daily schedule for it looks like it 20 started back on June 29, 2019 up until 21 8/10/2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. This is not a daily 23 schedule for me. This is all overtime. As you 24 can see, it's all overtime. 25 : Sorry. The daily EFTA00063647 36 1 assignments for overtime. 2 MR. THOMAS: For overtime. Yeah. These 3 are all -. 4 : They're all your overtime 5 shifts. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all - this is not 7 my daily -. 8 : Sure. 9 MR. THOMAS: So it's just all overtime. 10 : And as you mentioned, 11 that's why it says the number of times in here 12 where it's the SHU. 13 MR. THOMAS: It's the SHU and internal 14 mostly. 15 : Right. Because they were 16 overtime shifts working in the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 : Thank you for that 19 clarification. Thanks. And what are your 20 overall duties and responsibilities when you 21 are assigned to the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Maintain the count of 23 inmates. Make sure the inmates are fed. 24 Depending on what shift you're referring to, 25 take over a shift, make sure they get their EFTA00063648 37 1 showers. Um. Make sure they're counted and 2 that's basically it. 3 : Okay. And are there any 4 special requirements for inmates who are 5 assigned to the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: Not that I know of. No. 7 : So are inmates that are 8 assigned to the SHU -. Unless they have some 9 classification where they could be hurt by 10 another cellmate, are they all supposed to have 11 cellmates? 12 MR. THOMAS: Classification. Like I don't 13 know if they still - some if I can recall, some 14 a cell and rec alone. Maybe they were in a 15 fight and they, what's it called. When they 16 keep away from all inmates. Um. But other 17 than that some could be cell rec alone. 18 : So for the most part, I 19 should say, are inmates in the SHU supposed to 20 have a cellmate? 21 MR. THOMAS: That's not -. I don't know. 22 : My understanding was that 23 they're all supposed to have a cellmate unless 24 they meet some kind of a criteria like they're 25 a certain type of an inmate who would be harmed EFTA00063649 38 1 by another cellmate. Is that not correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 3 : You're not sure? 4 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. 5 : Fair enough. No problem. 6 Have you ever received training for medical 7 emergencies with inmates? 8 MR. THOMAS: In the ART. 9 : In ART? 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 : Were you also an 12 instructor? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never instructed. 14 : You've never been an 15 instructor? Never like a CPR instructor or 16 anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. No I'm not a CPR 18 instructor. 19 : Okay. Alright. So for 20 medical emergencies, the ART is pretty much 21 when they cover that? Do they cover that also 22 during SHU training? Medical emergencies for 23 inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. No. I don't 25 think so. EFTA00063650 39 1 : You're not sure. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. 3 : Like you got at annual 4 training? 5 MR. THOMAS: The annual training. 6 : Alright. Who is or was 7 inmate Jeffrey Epstein reg number 76318-054? 8 MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. 9 : Okay. Do you recall when 10 Epstein was housed at the MCC? Does July 6, 11 2019 through August 10, 2019 sound familiar? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember when he 13 first got there. But I don't remember when 14 exactly he first got there. 15 : So these we just - this 16 is just that overtime roster. When it looks 17 like you were assigned to the SHU pretty 18 regularly from 7/11/2019 to 8/10/2019. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 : When you were there, was 21 he in the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: Sometimes. 25 : I'm assuming not the EFTA00063651 40 1 whole time. 2 MR. THOMAS: Not -. 3 : Because I think he was on 4 suicide watch. But when you were there he was 5 - you know him from being in the SHU though? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've seen him before in 7 the SHU yes. Absolutely. 8 : Okay. Perfect. Do you 9 know why Epstein was assigned to the SHU? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 : No? They never told you 12 why? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 : Okay. Was it high- 15 profile? For suicide? Safety concerns? 16 Anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: It could have been a number 18 of reasons that, his case was high-profile, 19 whatever the case may be. 20 : Okay. And was Epstein 21 assigned to the SHU on both August 9th and 22 August 10th, 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 : Okay. And we kind of 25 just covered this, but do you know how long he EFTA00063652 41 1 was assigned to the SHU? Again, I believe it 2 was July and August aside from those 3 timeframes. Correct? 4 5 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. : Yeah. That's fine. What 6 was Epstein's routine while he was assigned at 7 the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 : Because you did the 10 overnight shift, I can understand that. So are 11 you aware that like during the day he would 12 meet with his attorneys every day? And then he 13 would be - so from basically 8:00 a.m. until 14 like 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. he was? 15 MR. THOMAS: I honestly really don't know. 16 : You don't even know. So 17 when you worked in the SHU was it always that 18 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? In the SHU? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well I mean I'm sure I have 20 some evening watch ones. I don't know if I 21 have some evening watch or not. But I'm sure 22 I've done evening watch or anything like that 23 but I didn't look exactly at that. Maybe 24 that's all morning watch. This is all morning 25 watch. Oh that's day watch internal. EFTA00063653 42 1 : So these like for July 2 and August? 3 MR. THOMAS: It's all yeah. This is all 4 morning watch. 5 : So they would all be from 6 12:00 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's all 12:00 a.m. 8 : And how is that 9 identified as that -? 10 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Right here where you see 11 MW is for morning watch. They say DW is for 12 day watch. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But it's all morning. 15 : So all morning watch 16 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 : Okay. Cool. Now did you 19 ever have any communication with Epstein during 20 his stay at the MCC? 21 MR. THOMAS: One particular time. 22 : Can you tell me about 23 that particular time? 24 MR. THOMAS: He was on suicide watch and I 25 was watching him on suicide watch. EFTA00063654 43 1 : Oh you actually watched 2 him when he was on suicide watch? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 : Alright. Not while you 5 were in the Shu though? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. Not while I was in the 7 SHU. 8 : Alright. When you were 9 watching him, was that a positive or a negative 10 experience? 11 MR. THOMAS: Just - I don't. I can't 12 label it under positive or negative. 13 : Sure. 14 MR. THOMAS: It was just watching him. 15 : Like were his 16 interactions with you - were they like -? 17 MR. THOMAS: Oh, he spoke with me and 18 everything like that. 19 : Was he pleasant? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he was pleasant. He 21 wasn't mean or anything like that. He was 22 really incoherent where he was at. But other 23 than that, he was just fine. He just sat there 24 and talked with me until I mean the whole six 25 hours. EFTA00063655 44 1 : Okay. And do you 2 remember around when that took place? 3 MR. THOMAS: I really can't recall. 4 : Would have that have been 5 -? Does it say it on this? Up. Actually it 6 does on this thing it says suicide watch. 7 Would it be on 7/23/2019? 8 MR. THOMAS: That could have been his. 9 That could have been that one. 10 : Okay. So on 7/23/2019, I 11 believe he had an incident within his cell. 12 And are you familiar with -? So when you were 13 watching him on suicide watch. Do you know why 14 he was there? 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh, for suicide watch. I 16 mean it's -. 17 : Yeah. Did you hear that 18 he tried to take his life? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I've heard that. As 20 you can see, I was internal that day. 21 : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Internal you just go up and 23 you count all the housing units and everything 24 like that. And I guess he tried to commit 25 suicide. And then we brought him down to the EFTA00063656 45 1 suicide room. And I sat there and watched him 2 for - I don't know what six hours, seven hours, 3 whatever that is. 4 : But prior to them sitting 5 down or even after, did they inform you why he 6 was there? 7 MR. THOMAS: Well it's suicide watch. 8 It's pretty self-explanatory? 9 : But they didn't provide 10 you details? 11 MR. THOMAS: No-no. Just if you're there 12 on suicide watch it's kind of self-explanatory. 13 But if you go on -. Depending. Suicide watch 14 is one thing and observation watch is another. 15 But if it says suicide watch, I'm sure he was 16 on suicide watch because he was in a smock and 17 um -. 18 : What does a smock mean? 19 MR. THOMAS: It's just a cover that you 20 put over so you don't have any clothes or 21 anything like that. 22 : Okay. Is it so they 23 can't harm themselves? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, so they don't harm 25 themselves. Mm-hmm. EFTA00063657 46 1 : Okay. And were you the 2 only individual on that, observing him during 3 suicide watch? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was the only one 5 watching him that time. 6 : And you said there is a 7 difference between suicide watch and 8 psychological observation. What is the 9 difference? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well psychological 11 observation you have your clothes. 12 : Okay. But I mean as far 13 as you as a CO. 14 MR. THOMAS: There's no difference. 15 You're still watching them. There's no 16 difference. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: You're still just watching 19 them in the suicide. In observation, you just 20 have clothes and suicide watch you're in a 21 smock and a blanket. 22 : Okay. And did you 23 receive any instructions with regard to Epstein 24 when he was assigned to the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00063658 47 1 : Specific to Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 : No. And are you aware 4 that Epstein was assigned any cellmates when he 5 was assigned to the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: Um, I'm sure he was. Maybe 7 he was. I don't really recall. 8 : So you don't recall if he 9 had a cellmate or not? 10 MR. THOMAS: I know one time he had a 11 cellmate. I don't recall like if he was 12 assigned a specific cellmate or not. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Or for his case whatever the 15 case, but I'm sure he had a cellmate. Unless 16 he was cell or rec alone. 17 : Okay. Do you know if 18 Epstein was required to have a cellmate when he 19 was assigned to the SHU? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 21 : And did anyone ever speak 22 with you about Epstein needing a cellmate when 23 he was assigned -- 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 : -- to the SHU? No one EFTA00063659 48 1 provided any instructions? Um was there a sign 2 posted within the SHU saying that Epstein was 3 required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know. 5 I don't think so. I don't know. 6 : Do you ever recall there 7 being a sign posted on his door saying he was 8 required to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 : Do you ever remember a 11 sign being posted on the officer in charge's 12 desk area or computer saying that he was 13 required to have a cellmate? 14 MR. THOMAS: That's - I don't go to his 15 office. The officer in charge. I don't. 16 : So is that different than 17 where you would sit in the SHU area? 18 MR. THOMAS: The officer in charge or the 19 lieutenant office? 20 : Not the lieutenant. The 21 OIC. 22 MR. THOMAS: The OIC. Well the OIC has a 23 desk. I didn't see a sign. I don't remember 24 recall ever seeing a sign -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00063660 49 1 MR. THOMAS: -- specific to Epstein. No. 2 : Okay. So no one ever 3 talked to you about the fact that Epstein 4 needed a cellmate? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall anybody 6 specifically talking about he needs a cellmate 7 or not. 8 : Okay. Do you know who 9 Inmate Nicholas is? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 : And who is he? 12 MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. 13 : Do you know if he was 14 ever assigned as Epstein's cellmate in July of 15 2019? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I remember he was a 17 cellmate of his. When that incident happened, 18 he was actually a cellmate of him. 19 : So from July 23, 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's the 23rd? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. The 23rd. 23 : So that was - he was his 24 cellmate up until that date? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was up to EFTA00063661 50 1 that date, I just remember that particular day, 2 was his cellmate that day. 3 : Alright. And are you 4 aware of any issues that took place between 5 Epstein and 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 : So you don't know what 8 transpired at all for that -? 9 MR. THOMAS: For them? No. No. 10 : Okay. And you didn't 11 respond to any kind of incident? Did you 12 respond on July 23rd? 13 MR. THOMAS: To that incident. Yes. Me 14 and another officer responded that time. And 15 by the time we got there, he was -. Because I 16 got there after the other officer got there. 17 And we just took him out. 18 : What other officer got 19 there? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, who was it...? I don't 21 remember the two officers that were on duty 22 that day, but the other officer that was there, 23 it was 24 : 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00063662 51 1 : And he worked in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. He didn't. I don't 3 remember if was working in the SHU or 4 not. But I remember when we responded, I 5 remember it was me and I remember 6 . I honestly couldn't tell you who the 7 other two officers on duty up there. Maybe 8 was one of the officers, but I know when 9 we responded, when we go there, I remember 10 seeing 11 : Were you working at the 12 SHU at that time? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I was internal that day. 14 : Alright. So I'm assuming 15 that you weren't the first to arrive. 16 MR. THOMAS: No I wasn't the first to 17 arrive. No. Absolutely not. 18 : Okay. So that's what I 19 thought you meant by being the second one 20 there. So can you just explain what you meant 21 by that? 22 MR. THOMAS: Um, from what I can remember. 23 I wasn't the first to respond to - I wasn't the 24 first person on that site on 25 : Okay. EFTA00063663 52 1 MR. THOMAS: -- the scene of that. But I 2 did eventually get there. Yes. 3 : Okay. So you were one of 4 the responders? 5 MR. THOMAS: I was one of the responding 6 yes. 7 : And when you go there 8 what did you see? 9 MR. THOMAS: By the time I got there, they 10 were actually - they were actually just 11 bringing him out. 12 : Bringing who out? 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh, Mr. Epstein. They was 14 bringing out Mr. Epstein. 15 : Out of his cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: Out of his cell. Yeah. 17 : Where were they bringing 18 him to? 19 MR. THOMAS: We was taking him to the 20 suicide which is down on the second floor. 21 : Okay. So they were 22 moving him from the SHU to the suicide watch 23 area? 24 MR. THOMAS: To the suicide watch area on 25 the second floor. EFTA00063664 53 1 : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: I remember. 3 : And do you know why he 4 was removed? 5 MR. THOMAS: I guess they say he tried to 6 commit suicide or whatever. 7 : Okay. Did you hear 8 anything about attempting to harm 9 Epstein? 10 MR. THOMAS: I can't recall what he would 11 say. I think he said he tried to beat him up 12 or something like that. I think he said he 13 tried to beat him up. I really don't remember 14 the exact details of what he was saying. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But I think he said he was 17 trying to beat me up or something like that. 18 : So Epstein was claiming 19 that -? 20 MR. THOMAS: Trying to beat him up or 21 something like that. 22 : Was he saying that he 23 didn't try to commit suicide but rather that 24 was trying to harm him? 25 MR. THOMAS: I remember him saying that EFTA00063665 54 1 was trying to beat him up. I 2 remember him saying that. 3 : Okay. And did he tell 4 you that? 5 MR. THOMAS: He was just saying that. 6 Yeah, he was just Well we were talking. 7 : When -? 8 MR. THOMAS: So yes, he did tell me that. 9 We were just talking. 10 : Was that when you 11 responded or during your psychological 12 observation or suicide watch observation? 13 MR. THOMAS: It was just when we were in 14 observation together. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: When I say he was really 17 incoherent. He was just saying because 18 actually me and was there for a while. 19 It wasn't just me by myself for maybe about 10 20 - 15 minutes when we got him. Let's say half 21 an hour. Got him there. Got him de-clothed. 22 Got him into the suicide room. And then the 23 lieutenant was there. Who was the lieutenant 24 there? Oh I can't remember. Who was the 25 lieutenant there? And because I don't have EFTA00063666 55 1 keys and stuff for that - for the suicide room. 2 What is first 3 name? Are you aware? 4 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 5 : You don't know? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. 7 : That's fine. Did you - 8 when you responded - did you see any kind of 9 like orange homemade rope or anything like 10 that? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't notice. 12 : That was used to try to - 13 ? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing any 15 of that stuff. 16 : No? So but you did have 17 a conversation with Epstein about 18 trying to harm him? 19 MR. THOMAS: He said that 20 tried. I remember him saying he was trying to 21 harm him and that was it. Yeah. 22 : Okay. And did you 23 believe that to be true? 24 MR. THOMAS: I didn't. 25 : No? EFTA00063667 56 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I really didn't. 2 : So do you think he was 3 using it? Why do you think he said it? 4 MR. THOMAS: Probably just wanted to get 5 out of the cell. I don't' know. I really 6 don't. I really don't know. 7 : Okay. But you didn't 8 believe it. You believed that he was actually 9 trying to harm himself rather than the other 10 cellmate trying to harm him? 11 MR. THOMAS: Inmates say things. I really 12 don't know if it was. I really don't know. I 13 really don't know. I just - me at that time, I 14 was just sitting there. He wanted to talk. 15 I'm there. Why not talk? 16 : Absolutely. But it 17 didn't cause you concern when he was saying 18 that another inmate was trying to harm him? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well it was passed up and 20 everything like that. Because when he came 21 out, he said it to the lieutenant and 22 everything like that. So everybody was known. 23 But as far as anything - any concern. No. 24 Inmates harm each other all the time. 25 : Sure. Do you know if at EFTA00063668 57 1 that time 2 MR. THOMAS: It's alright. I can't 3 pronounce his name either. 4 • was moved and 5 no longer Epstein's cellmate? 6 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure if they said he 7 tried to harm, I'm sure he was no longer his 8 cellmate after that. I'm sure. 9 : Okay. Do you know around 10 how long he was on suicide watch and then 11 psychological observation? Outside of the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 : Alright. So does July 23 14 to approximately July 30th sound to be about 15 right? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 : Sure. 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't work in that area. 19 : No, that's fine. So if 20 Epstein came back to the SHU on July 30, 2019, 21 do you know if he was assigned another 22 cellmate? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure they wouldn't put 24 him back in with the same one. So. I would 25 say yes. I don't know specifically, but I -. EFTA00063669 58 1 : But he had another 2 cellmate? 3 MR. THOMAS: Maybe he could have been 4 solo. I don't know. I really don't know. 5 : Do you recall checking = 6 being that he's such a high-profile. You know 7 in the SHU. Do you remember ever you know when 8 you were in the SHU, you remember seeing two 9 people in his cell? 10 MR. THOMAS: I really don't recall. 11 : You don't' know? 12 MR. THOMAS: I mean, it could have been 13 two people. He could have been by himself. I 14 really don't remember. 15 : Do you know what inmate - 16 ? 17 MR. THOMAS: Exact or counts. 18 : Sure. I'll try to help 19 your recollection. Do you recall an inmate 20 named 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 : So you don't remember 23 that name? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 : So he was Epstein's EFTA00063670 59 1 celimate from July 30th through August 9th, 2 2019. 3 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 4 : Are you not familiar with 5 that? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know who that 7 is. 8 : Okay. Were you there at 9 all when Epstein was returned from the suicide 10 watch / psychological observation area back to 11 the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 : No? So you're not sure 14 if was already in the cell or not? 15 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. Like I said, 16 if you could look at the thing. I'm morning 17 watch. So. 18 : Sure. 19 MR. THOMAS: They're all in their cells 20 tucked in at that time. So I couldn't tell you 21 who was in there or -. 22 : Okay. And do you know 23 anything about being removed from the MCC 24 on August 9, 2019? 25 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. EFTA00063671 60 1 : You don't know that. So 2 on August 9th when you probably got there and 3 through August 10th when you worked there, that 4 wasn't discussed at all? That was 5 removed and Epstein was without a cellmate? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 : No? You didn't have that 8 discussion with -? Who did you work with that 9 night? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well I know, the 10th I know 11 who I worked with. The 9th I don't know who I 12 was up there with. 13 : In the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 : You're not familiar with 16 who you were in the SHU with? 17 MR. THOMAS: On the 9th? 18 : No on the 10th. 19 MR. THOMAS: On the 10th? Yeah. Ms. 20 Noel. 21 : So I'm sorry, when I said 22 the 9th, I meant when you were - you probably 23 arrived at the institution prior to 12:00 a.m. 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I arrived to it but I 25 didn't go straight up there. I went down to my EFTA00063672 61 1 office for, I didn't go straight up to the SHU. 2 : Okay. Right. So that's 3 what I'm saying. You arrived there on the 4 night of August 9th and then worked in the SHU 5 from midnight August 10th to 8:00. 6 MR. THOMAS: Oh see, okay. Now I see what 7 you're saying. Yeah. I got there let's say at 8 11:50 or 10 minutes prior to try to be there a 9 little early. But I thought when you keep 10 saying the 9th because -- 11 : Yeah, absolutely. 12 MR. THOMAS: as it shows I worked on 13 the 9th. That's why. 14 : Absolutely. 15 MR. THOMAS: But if I got there on the 9th 16 at 10:50, was up there. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: I can't remember who the 19 other person was. Because it's usually two 20 people. It had to be two people. I can't 21 remember who the other person was. 22 : Sure. And so I'll just 23 ask that last question to make sure that we're 24 on the same page. When you arrived. Prior to 25 your August 10th shift on August 9th at EFTA00063673 62 1 approximately about -- 2 MR. THOMAS: 11:50. 3 -- 11:50 p.m. Was 4 discussed? Inmate . Or the fact that 5 Epstein was without a cellmate. 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 : No. Okay. And do you 8 know if Epstein should have been assigned a 9 cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he's -. Well 11 usually if you're committed if they - someone 12 commits - they usually try to not put them by 13 themselves. 14 : Right. So if you come 15 back from suicide watch or psychological 16 observation, you're supposed to have a 17 cellmate. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 : Correct? 20 MR. THOMAS: But that would have been done 21 prior to my shift. That wouldn't have been 22 done on the morning watch shift. No movement 23 happens at the morning watch. 24 : But -. 25 MR. THOMAS: That happens prior to my EFTA00063674 63 1 shift. 2 : Absolutely. But just my 3 point being people that come off of the 4 psychological observation or suicide watch, 5 they are required to have a cellmate. Correct? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : Okay. And is there some 8 kind of like a hotlist that's in there? 9 MR. THOMAS: It is. I do recall. You're 10 saying hotlist. There is something called a 11 hotlist. I don't know where it's at or 12 anything like that. But I'm sure they do have 13 something called a hotlist. Yes. 14 : What is a hotlist? 15 MR. THOMAS: The MCC definition of it. I 16 don't know. I know it's just inmates that are 17 - it could be inmates that are cellie. It 18 could be that means that they're cell rec 19 alone. It could be the inmate's suicide watch. 20 It could be the inmate's mental instability. 21 : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Hotlist. It's a culmination 23 of a bunch of different things. 24 : Why are people placed on 25 the hotlist? EFTA00063675 64 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't place people on the 2 hotlist. I don't know. That's psychology. 3 : Yeah. So if it's up 4 there though for people to see that this is the 5 hotlist. Is there like a reason? Is it 6 something like these people all need cellmates? 7 These people need special attention. These 8 people -. What's the -? 9 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. I 10 couldn't tell you on that. It's just like a 11 hotlist. I know it's a hotlist. Some - the 12 psychology put. I don't know if it's 13 particularly that all these people need 14 cellmates or the hotlist or -. I know that 15 there is something called a hotlist at MCC. I 16 don't know where they - entails you to get on 17 the hotlist. No. 18 : Oh. So not what it takes 19 to get on it. But why it's posted there. Like 20 if you're on the hotlist, what does that mean? 21 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, it could have 22 been because you 23 : So is there a description 24 next to a name? Does it say you're on the 25 hotlist because of this reason? EFTA00063676 65 1 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I 2 don't -. I can't remember what it looks like. 3 : Okay. But there is a 4 hotlist within the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. There is a hotlist 6 somewhere. 7 : Alright. And do you know 8 -? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it's posted 10 or not. I don't think -- 11 : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: -- it's posted. I don't 13 know. But I do recall something called a 14 hotlist in the SHU. 15 : So you recall a hotlist. 16 You don't remember seeing it? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing it. 18 No. 19 : Okay. So you never like 20 reviewed it or anything? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember reviewing 22 it. No I don't. 23 : Were you supposed to? If 24 you were assigned in the SHU, were you supposed 25 to say oh these people are on the hotlist. I EFTA00063677 66 1 need to take special care to these people. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. No. 3 : No? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. 5 : So -. 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't think it was anything 7 special care or these people or not. 8 Absolutely not. 9 : So what would be the 10 purpose of posting a hotlist then? Who would 11 it be for? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's for the staff in SHU. 13 : Right. 14 MR. THOMAS: It's for the staff in SHU. 15 : So if you're a staff in 16 the SHU, doesn't that mean that you're supposed 17 to look at it? 18 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to for the staff. 19 Yes. You're supposed to look at it. 20 : Alright. But you didn't? 21 MR. THOMAS: I would say no I didn't look 22 at it that night. No. 23 : Fair enough. So do you 24 know if Epstein was on the hotlist? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on the EFTA00063678 67 1 hotlist. 2 : But you do know he was on 3 suicide watch and that he should have had a 4 cellmate. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I knew he was a suicide 6 person. Yes. 7 : Okay. Now could SHU 8 staff have assigned Epstein a new cellmate. 9 MR. THOMAS: Could SHU staff do it? I 10 don't know if SHU staff could do it. I know 11 the SHU lieutenant or something like that could 12 do it. But I don't know if SHU staff could 13 just give him. I don't know. 14 : So who would be 15 responsible for assigning Epstein a new 16 cellmate? So let me if it wasn't clear. 17 was his cellmate. He was required to have a 18 cellmate because he was on suicide watch. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 : And psychology made sure 21 that - or was supposed to make sure that - 22 everyone knew that he was supposed to have a 23 cellmate. 24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 25 : So if leaves as his EFTA00063679 68 1 celimate on August 9, 2019, who would be 2 responsible for placing a new celimate with 3 Epstein? 4 MR. THOMAS: Honestly I don't know. 5 Honestly I don't know. I'm sure it has to come 6 from somebody higher up. Obviously a 7 lieutenant or it could have come sometimes 8 high-profile could come from the 9 administration. 10 : Okay. 11 MR. THOMAS: Whatever the case may be. So 12 specifically I really don't know. But I know 13 it's somebody higher up has to give him - 14 higher up than me - has to. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't think an 17 officer would just put somebody in there with 18 him. 19 : Okay. Now is that 20 discussed at all like during any of those 21 trainings or the suicide prevention trainings? 22 Is it discussed like hey if you know this guy 23 is on suicide watch, make sure he's got a 24 cellmate? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don't EFTA00063680 69 1 think it's discussed like that. No I don't. 2 : No? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 : Alright. So how do you 5 know that if you're on suicide watch they 6 should - the inmate should have a cellmate? 7 MR. THOMAS: I mean we were told. You're 8 told before that if an inmate is - has 9 previously been on suicide he has a cellmate. 10 : So I guess what I'm 11 asking is when were you told that? And where? 12 MR. THOMAS: I've been there for 14 -. I 13 mean I can't remember exact -. 14 : Yeah-yeah. So possibly 15 training? 16 MR. THOMAS: Possibly training. Word of 17 mouth like that but I know -. 18 : You knew it but you just 19 don't remember where you learned it from? 20 MR. THOMAS: That's correct but then you 21 have inmates that go on suicide watch and come 22 back that don't have a cellmate. So I've seen 23 that also have the inmates go there. Come off 24 suicide and not have a cellmate. So it's -. 25 : Would there be a reason EFTA00063681 70 1 for a person who came off suicide watch not to 2 have a cellmate? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know the reason or 4 anything. Like I said, that's also the 5 psychology personally handle that. But I've 6 seen also with inmates come up there and they 7 go into a cell by themselves. 8 : Okay. But you're And 9 again I don't know that this was clear. If 10 you're working in the SHU and you know someone 11 is supposed to have a cellmate, are you 12 authorized to provide them with a new cellmate? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 14 : You don't know? 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 16 : Have you ever done it? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never done it. 18 : You've never done that? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never just put 20 somebody inside a -. Are we talking with a 21 suicide? I've never just put somebody in a 22 cell with somebody else. 23 : Okay. Should you -? 24 MR. THOMAS: Especially not at morning 25 watch. Absolutely not. EFTA00063682 71 1 : Okay. As someone in the 2 SHU working in there and knowing someone's 3 without a cellmate that should have a cellmate, 4 should you report it to a lieutenant? 5 MR. THOMAS: If they don't have a cellmate 6 should you report it to a lieutenant? Mm. I 7 don't know. I mean. Usually if that happens, 8 the lieutenant, because with certain inmates 9 you can't just put somebody in with them like. 10 It could be a racial thing. It could be he had 11 a previous incident. He could be whatever the 12 case may be. So I know officers don't want to 13 just do it because then they say oh that person 14 can't be in with them. And also before you put 15 an inmate inside so you have to check their 16 background as far as steps so this person can't 17 be with this person. Or this one is affiliated 18 with this and this person. So for an officer 19 because some officers don't have the 20 programming -. I mean don't have the thing 21 just to say oh well I'm going to see inmate 22 this and I'm going to put him into that. 23 : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: So that's why an officer 25 wouldn't just put an inmate inside with another EFTA00063683 72 1 - with someone. 2 : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. It has 4 to come down from up top. 5 : Alright. From your 6 knowledge being that left and Epstein is 7 required to have a cellmate and didn't have 8 one. Do you believe SHU staff should have 9 assigned Epstein a new cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 11 : No? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 13 : So per your training -. 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 : And you know work 16 experience. 17 MR. THOMAS: Should SHU staff just has 18 assigned him? No. I believe that should have 19 come from somebody above him. 20 : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: Somebody above the SHU staff. 22 : So if the SHU staff 23 doesn't inform anyone about an inmate required 24 to have a cellmate that they don't, how do 25 people higher above them learn that there's no EFTA00063684 73 1 cellmate with someone like Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: Well whoever is on shift at 3 that time. It's a process. Like it's if 4 someone leaves and goes from R&D to -. A staff 5 member can't just let somebody leave. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. THOMAS: You know. I can't just let 8 somebody walk just because he can walk in walk 9 out. 10 : Absolutely. 11 MR. THOMAS: Has to come from R&D oh this 12 person was released. And then because then the 13 base count changes. And then so it's notified 14 before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody 15 left. Or 16 : So 17 MR. THOMAS: Now if it wasn't you know 18 that specific that left. You know what I 19 mean. That Jeffrey Epstein. I know before it 20 gets to the SHU staff happened to put somebody 21 in there. It has to come from someone else to 22 know that inmates left from a particular 23 housing unit. Or SHU have to tell them the 24 inmate left from a particular. Now whether 25 they know that it was Epstein's um cellmate EFTA00063685 74 1 that left. I don't know. That's above me. 2 But it comes from way up from - it comes from 3 before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody 4 left. The only thing that a SHU staff is going 5 to get is a call saying that oh yeah, base 6 count changed that such-and-such is not there. 7 : So if the people that are 8 calling SHU and saying hey this inmate is 9 leaving. So in this instance it would be on 10 August 9th. SHU staff. You weren't there. 11 But SHU staff gets the call and hey, inmate 12 is leaving. Do those people know that 13 was assigned to Epstein? 14 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure they -. I mean. 15 I'm sure they should -- 16 : Or would the SHU staff be 17 responsible -- 18 MR. THOMAS: know that he was assigned 19 -. 20 : -- for saying hey he's 21 leaving but Epstein is required to have a 22 cellmate. That's Epstein's cellmate. How does 23 that information get passed along? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 25 : Okay. EFTA00063686 75 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know when that 2 particular - when that will happen. I really 3 couldn't tell you when that would actually go 4 down in the - go down. 5 : Okay. And this is 6 specific to you. If - you said you didn't 7 but would you have been authorized to assign 8 Epstein a new cellmate during your shift on 9 August 10, 2019? 10 MR. THOMAS: Would I have been authorized 11 to? 12 : Right. So if you knew 13 that Epstein was required to have a cellmate 14 MR. THOMAS: If somebody would have told 15 me to give. I wouldn't have just taken it upon 16 myself to take an inmate out from X and put him 17 to where in to Epstein. No. If somebody 18 authorized me to put him in there, then I would 19 have put him in there. But -. 20 : But you wouldn't have 21 that authorization to do that independently? 22 MR. THOMAS: Independently? 23 : Right. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 : No. EFTA00063687 76 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 : So you couldn't on your 3 own make the decision. Hey, he's without an 4 inmate - he's without a cellmate. I need to 5 get a new inmate in there. 6 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say no. 7 : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say no. Not 9 especially with a high-profile. You're not 10 just going to put somebody in with somebody 11 else. Absolutely not. 12 : Alright. And obviously 13 since you didn't know, I believe I already know 14 the answer to this, but did you notify anyone 15 during your shift on August 10th that Epstein 16 did not have a cellmate? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 : No. Alright. Now we're 19 going to talk a little bit about staff 20 psychologists. Because you mentioned them. Do 21 you know who the MCC staff psychologists were 22 in August 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: Dr. . You're talking 24 about the -. 25 : Is Dr. the chief - EFTA00063688 77 1 2 3 4 ? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. The chief or whatever it's called. : Yeah. 5 MR. THOMAS: Mr. 6 : Is there an 7 MR. THOMAS: Oh, Dr. . Dr. 8 Dr. . Yes. 9 : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: I know who Dr. is. 11 : Alright. 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 : Alright. So there's 14 three of them. I think Chief 15 Staff Psychologist , and 16 17 MR. THOMAS: • 18 : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 : Are you aware of Epstein 21 meeting with any of the staff psychologists 22 during his stay at the MCC? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 : No? 25 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. EFTA00063689 78 1 : So would have he -? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure if he went on 3 suicide, I'm sure he met with them. But I 4 don't know specifically that they go on this 5 date that he met with them. 6 : No, it's -. 7 MR. THOMAS: If he was on suicide watch, 8 I'm sure he's met with someone. 9 : Now how places someone on 10 suicide watch? 11 MR. THOMAS: Psychology. 12 : Okay. So if Epstein like 13 you said was on suicide watch, would have 14 psychology then placed him there? 15 MR. THOMAS: Well a psychology will say 16 that he has to go there and then the staff - 17 the custody staff would actually take him to 18 the suicide area. 19 : Okay. And just briefly, 20 what is suicide watch? 21 MR. THOMAS: It's a place where you watch 22 somebody on suicide. 23 : Like you said, did you 24 say the second floor? 25 MR. THOMAS: It's on the second floor. EFTA00063690 79 1 Yeah. 2 : So the second floor is a 3 separate area? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a separate area. Four 5 cells. And in that pack you can, I've seen 6 suicide watch be in the SHU sometimes. So it 7 just -. 8 : And just on that note, 9 where is the SHU? What floor? 10 MR. THOMAS: Ninth. 11 : Ninth floor. Alright. 12 So. He was on the 9th floor. Went down to the 13 second floor - Epstein that is. On suicide 14 watch. So it's on the second floor. And like 15 how long are they there? Like who makes that 16 determination I guess is what I'm saying. 17 MR. THOMAS: I would say -. 18 : Who's in there? Is 19 psychology like co-located with it or how is it 20 -? The suicide watch area. How is that set 21 up? 22 MR. THOMAS: It's a room on the second 23 floor. It's four rooms on the second floor. 24 Single rooms. Big glass. Door. Food slot. 25 Same on the other side. There are two EFTA00063691 80 1 adjoining doors. It has a shower there. So 2 like if you have to shower then there's a 3 closet. 4 : Is psychology near there? 5 MR. THOMAS: The psychology is down the 6 hall. 7 : Also on the second floor? 8 MR. THOMAS: Also on the second floor. 9 : So would they - do you 10 believe that they would meet with people that 11 are on suicide watch? 12 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure. Yes. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 15 : But you didn't know? But 16 you just believe. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I believe. I just 18 believe it. I'm sure that they meet with 19 people on the suicide watch. I'm sure. 20 : So when you're watching 21 Epstein on July 23rd, did you see a 22 psychologist talk with him at all? 23 MR. THOMAS: That was on the morning 24 watch. But no psychologists is on duty. 25 : Oh, okay. EFTA00063692 81 1 MR. THOMAS: -- at that time. 2 : So you were there from 3 8:00 You were watching him. 4 MR. THOMAS: From 12 midnight to -- 5 : 8:00 a.m. 6 MR. THOMAS: -- while I was watching him 7 until, well exactly, from about 1:30 to 8:00 8 a.m. 9 : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: So um. 11 : Now when inmates though 12 like Epstein he's on suicide watch and then 13 placed back in the SHU. How soon thereafter 14 are they typically provided a cellmate? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't know. 16 : Is it right away? 17 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure it's right away. 18 : Typically? 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure it's -. 20 : So it like you, 21 typically, like is a cellmate already in there 22 when they place him with someone? 23 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. It could be 24 either or. I'm sure that they made certain 25 provisions and stuff to make sure that he was EFTA00063693 82 1 put with somebody that he felt comfortable with 2 or whatever the case. 3 : Do inmates that are on 4 suicide watch and psychological observation. 5 Do they always go from there to the SHU? Or 6 ever into somewhere else? 7 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 8 : So if someone's on 9 suicide watch or psychological observation. 10 MR. THOMAS: On the second floor. 11 : On the second floor. 12 When they are released from that, do they 13 always get placed into the SHU or do they go 14 MR. THOMAS: No. They can 15 : -- back into get general 16 population? 17 MR. THOMAS: It can be either or. If they 18 have some more SHU time that they have to serve 19 or anything like that they can go back to the 20 SHU. But their SHU time is up and it's -. I'm 21 assuming -. I'll say it's whatever the 22 psychologists say. If they say that they're 23 cleared to go to population. They'll take them 24 to population. 25 : Okay. What's the EFTA00063694 83 1 difference between suicide watch and 2 psychological observation? 3 MR. THOMAS: Suicide watch, one has a 4 smock and a blanket. And observation they have 5 clothes. 6 : That's the only 7 difference? 8 MR. THOMAS: That's the only difference. 9 We still just watching them out there. There's 10 no difference. 11 : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: Or anything like that. Yeah. 13 No difference. You watch them. 14 : Same area, same cell, 15 just what they're wearing? 16 MR. THOMAS: What they're - yeah. Same 17 area, same cells, and what they're wearing. 18 Absolutely. 19 : Okay. And is it your 20 understanding the Epstein was both on suicide 21 watch and psychological observation? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on 23 psychological. I knew when I watched him he 24 was on suicide watch at that time. 25 : Okay. EFTA00063695 84 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't. Maybe he was. I 2 don't know. 3 : Did any other inmates 4 that were in the SHU when you were working in 5 the SHU in July and August 2019. Were any of 6 them also people that were on suicide watch or 7 psychological observation? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 : No? Would that be on 10 that hotlist if they were? 11 MR. THOMAS: It probably would be. I 12 don't know if it's something that other 13 inmates. I couldn't tell you there was 5X 14 suicides or that. I couldn't tell you. 15 : Okay. Are there any 16 other additional requirements for people to 17 come off of suicide watch or psychological 18 observation, aside from having a cellmate? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 20 : Do they have to get -? 21 Do you have to pay closer attention to them? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm -. I don't think so. 23 I'd just say that everything is still standard 24 practice. 25 : Okay. So when you're EFTA00063696 85 1 working in the SHU, do you treat everybody the 2 same? Or certain people -? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. I treat everybody the 4 same. 5 : So you don't look after 6 certain people more than others? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't pay more 8 attention to one person or another. 9 : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. You look after everyone 11 the same. 12 : And is that the case with 13 Epstein as well? You weren't informed like 14 hey, make sure you're paying more attention to 15 him? He's your priority. 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 : So no one ever said 18 MR. THOMAS: No. absolutely not. 19 : -- he's the priority 20 inmate? Okay. And I may have asked you this, 21 so I apologize if it's repetitive. 22 MR. THOMAS: It's all right. 23 : But was Epstein required 24 to have a cellmate during his stay in the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. EFTA00063697 86 1 : You just don't know. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't know exactly, but I 3 don't know. I don't know. But I would say if 4 he was previous suicide, yeah, he was probably 5 required to have an inmate. 6 : Are you aware that the 7 staff psychologist every issued a requirement 8 for him to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. I'm not. I don't know. 10 : So did anyone, including 11 the psychologist, peers, supervisors, or others 12 ever tell you that Epstein was required to have 13 a cellmate? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 : Do you have that email? 16 : Let me see. Is there one 17 more stack? 18 : So this is an email from 19 that from psychology. It says, 20 to suicide watch psychological observation 21 update, 7:30, 2019. Do you know if you ever 22 received this email? It says, "Inmate Epstein 23 is being taken off psych observation and needs 24 to be housed with an appropriate cellmate." Do 25 you remember ever receiving that? EFTA00063698 87 1 MR. THOMAS: Um. Usually they send this 2 out to everybody like it's sent out to 3 everybody but I don't remember seeing it. I'm 4 sure if it was sent out to all staff, I'm sure 5 it got to me. But I don't remember seeing it. 6 : No. And I'm not saying 7 that you received it. I'm just asking if you 8 had received it. Like either by forward. Did 9 anyone ever forward this email to you? Or did 10 anybody ever -? Or did you ever see it? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. My name's not on here. 12 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No, I 13 know. Your name isn't on there. 14 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 15 : You're right. That's why 16 I'm just asking if anyone ever forwarded that 17 on to you? 18 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. Hm-mm. 19 : And. Okay. Do any of 20 these names that are on here -. Especially 21 toward the bottom here. Any of these names 22 people that would worked in the SHU? 23 MR. THOMAS: It could be a bunch of these 24 people that worked in the SHU. I don't know 25 specifically who works in the SHU. EFTA00063699 88 1 2 3 4 : Okay. But because you weren't on a regular SHU schedule, you may not have -? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 5 : They may not have 6 forwarded -- 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, that's the chaplain. 8 : -- that to you? 9 10 chaplain. : One of those is the 11 : That's okay. But you 12 never None of these people ever forwarded 13 this to you. 14 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I -. 15 : No one ever sent it? 16 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 17 : Okay. Just because we 18 talked about it, do you mind just initialing it 19 and dating it? Thank you, sir. 20 MR. THOMAS: I wrote '20, so I initialed 21 over it. I put the one. Because I initialed 22 over it. When writing it. 23 : What's this? 24 MR. THOMAS: I put 20. 25 : This said 19. Yeah. EFTA00063700 89 1 MR. THOMAS: No. I put 20, so I put the 2 one and I put my initials over it. 3 : That's his initials. 4 : Okay. Got it. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I didn't. 6 : That he thought because 7 it kind of looks (Indiscernible *01:06:36). 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 : 2019. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 11 : Alright. Thanks. So no 12 one ever informed you that even -. Not only 13 that but that you needed to keep a closer eye 14 on Epstein. 15 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't ever recall 16 being informed about that. No. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: I mean I'm not a custody 19 : Sure. 20 MR. THOMAS: I'm not a -. 21 : I didn't know during your 22 times that you're actually in the SHU -- 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 24 : -- people talking about - 25 - EFTA00063701 90 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 : -- like -. 3 : I'm in at midnight. 4 Everybody's gone. 5 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just the 6 people because you're always with at least one 7 other person. Right? 8 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. Yes. 9 : But that other person, 10 you never had this -- 11 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't recall. 12 : -- conversation? Okay. 13 Do you recall who the MCC warden in July and 14 August 2019 was? 15 MR. THOMAS: I can't pronounce his first 16 name, but -. 17 : Is it 18 II 19 MR. THOMAS: I was about to say captain 20 . But 21 : Uh. 22 MR. THOMAS: But you said the warden. 23 Right? 24 : Yes. 25 MR. THOMAS: EFTA00063702 91 1 : Yeah. So 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 : Okay. Good. What 4 communications do you have with the MCC warden 5 with regarding to Epstein being housed within 6 the MCC? 7 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any. 8 : None? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 : So I'm going to go 11 through just a couple names. And the reason 12 why I'm going to ask the same questions. And 13 the intention is not to be repetitive, but for 14 you to specifically think 15 MR. THOMAS: Just -. 16 -- these people to just 17 see if that helps let you recall. 18 MR. THOMAS: Jog something. 19 : Yeah. You know so you 20 can visualize that person. 21 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 : So did the warden ever 23 provide you with special instructions with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. EFTA00063703 92 1 : Okay. Did the warden 2 ever tell you that Epstein was required to have 3 a cellmate while housed at the MCC or assigned 4 to the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. 6 : Did the warden ever visit 7 the SHU during Epstein's stay at the MCC? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 : You don't know because 10 you weren't there during the days? Does the 11 warden typically just work during the day 12 watch? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I actually had an 14 overtime shift with the warden sometime when he 15 helped out with the He worked the SHU with 16 me one time. But I know -. 17 : When did he do that? 18 MR. THOMAS: I can't recall. 19 : Would it have been like 20 in the July or August of 2019? 21 MR. THOMAS: Nah, this was a long time 22 ago. 23 : Okay. And that -- 24 MR. THOMAS: A long time ago. 25 : -- same warden? EFTA00063704 93 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That same warden. 2 : Okay. Do you recall any 3 times that you were in the SHU during July and 4 August during Epstein's stay that the warden 5 visited? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I'm on morning watch. 7 : Right. That's what I 8 meant. Because you had said that sometimes he 9 did though. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 11 : Okay. But not during 12 that time. 13 MR. THOMAS: Not during my time. No. 14 : Do you know if the warden 15 ever met with Epstein during his stay here at 16 MCC? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 : Who were the MCC 19 associate wardens in August 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: 21 : So 22 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. THOMAS: And - honestly I can't 25 remember the other one. EFTA00063705 94 1 2 3 MR. : Okay. Did ever inform you about -? THOMAS: No. 4 : Talk to you about 5 Epstein? Okay. Did any AWs or associate 6 wardens? No? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 : Alright. 9 MR. THOMAS: Not any. 10 : So what communications 11 did you have with any MCC AWs, including 12 , about Epstein being 13 housed -- 14 MR. THOMAS: None. 15 : -- within the MCC. None? 16 What AWs did you communicate with and how were 17 those communications conducted? Did you ever 18 discuss anything with AWs? Did you ever have 19 conversations with them? 20 MR. THOMAS: How is your day going? 21 : Yeah. But not like 22 sitting down talking about different inmates or 23 anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 25 : No? Alright. And did EFTA00063706 95 1 2 any AWs ever provide you with any information with regard to Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 : Or special instructions? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 : And did any AW, including 7 AW , ever tell you that 8 Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 : Did any AW ever visit the 11 SHU while you were in the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 : No? Did any AW ever meet 14 with Epstein during his stay at MCC? 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 16 : Okay. Who was the MCC 17 captain in July and August of 2019? 18 MR. THOMAS: I see his face but I can't 19 remember his name. I see his face. 20 Was it 21 22 MR. you go. THOMAS: Yeah. There you go. There 23 : So it was 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00063707 96 1 2 3 4 : Okay. What communications did you have with Captain with regarding to Epstein being housed --? MR. THOMAS: None. 5 : -- at the MCC. None? 6 Would you have any communications with the 7 captain? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. Passing by. 9 : Just hello and 10 MR. THOMAS: Hello and what's going on and 11 -. 12 : Right there. 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 14 : And -. Um. We'll just 15 have like three more questions and then we'll 16 take a break. 17 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 18 : Did the captain ever 19 provide you with special instructions with 20 regard to Epstein? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 : Did the captain ever tell 23 you that Epstein was required to have a 24 cellmate -- 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00063708 97 1 : -- while housed at MCC or 2 the SHU? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 : Did the captain ever 5 visit the SHU during Epstein's stay at the MCC? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 7 : Did the captain ever -? 8 But not while you were in the SHU? 9 MR. THOMAS: Not while I was in SHU. No. 10 : Did the captain ever 11 meeting with Epstein during his stay at the 12 MCC? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 14 : Not to -. 15 MR. THOMAS: And I - I don't know. 16 : Yep. Absolutely. 17 Alright. You want to take a break now? 18 : Just one quick one. Yes. 19 : Yeah, absolutely. It is 20 currently 11:18 a.m. This is Senior Special 21 Agent and I am pausing the 22 recording. [Whereupon, the above-entitled 23 matter went off the record and went back on the 24 record.] This is Senior Special Agent 25 and we're resuming the interview EFTA00063709 98 1 with Mr. Thomas. Everyone is present. I 2 should also note that another attorney for Mr. 3 Thomas is on the telephone. I believe that is 4 . Is that correct? 5 : That's correct. 6 : Okay. Great. Mr. 7 Thomas, I just want to remind you, this is a 8 voluntary interview. You are under oath. And 9 we will resume. Any questions 10 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 11 : -- before we start? 12 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 13 : Alright. So the next 14 section is regarding supervisors on August 9th 15 and August 10th. Again, we know you don't work 16 on August 9th, during the day. 17 MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. 18 : At least. You did work 19 in the early morning hours. 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 : Some of these questions 22 then you might not know the answers to. Who 23 were the MCC supervisors on duty with 24 responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 25 9th and 10th, 2019? I'll actually provide you EFTA00063710 99 1 with this duty agent roster to help. So this 2 is an MCC New York daily assignment roster for 3 August - Friday August 9, 2019. And this is 4 one for -- 5 MR. THOMAS: The 10th. 6 : -- Saturday, August 10, 7 2019. So -. 8 MR. THOMAS: What's your question? 9 : So who were the MCC 10 supervisors on duty with the responsibility for 11 overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 12 2019? So who would have -? Is it true that 13 the SHU lieutenant -? If the SHU lieutenant is 14 out of the office. 15 : Oh, I'm sorry. Can we do 16 one question at a time? Because it just -. 17 You jumped to the second and he didn't answer 18 it. 19 : Well it's because I 20 wanted to explain that the SHU lieutenant was 21 out. 22 : Okay. 23 : So who then would be 24 responsible to oversee the SHU if the SHU 25 lieutenant is out? EFTA00063711 100 1 MR. THOMAS: I - whoa. If the SHU 2 lieutenant is out? Who would be responsible? 3 I don't -. 4 : Would it be the ops or 5 activities lieutenant? 6 MR. THOMAS: For my shift or for the shift 7 that I was on that time would be -. 8 : Mm-hmm. Just what's your 9 understanding? So for August 9th, who would be 10 like for instance -? 11 MR. THOMAS: So 12 : And we can start from 13 when you worked on August 9th. 14 MR. THOMAS: Okay. (Indiscernible 15 *01:13:56) 16 : Who on August 9th would 17 have been responsible for overseeing the SHU if 18 the SHU lieutenant is not there? 19 MR. THOMAS: Um, I guess the operations 20 lieutenant. 21 : Okay. And what does it 22 say? 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um, 24 . And then 25 after gets off. It looks like EFTA00063712 101 1 her duty was from I think that they were a 2 little different. But it shows on this that it 3 was midnight to 8:00 a.m. I believe they 4 actually worked 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. But 5 after she would leave at either 6:00 a.m. or 6 8:00 a.m. Who would then become the person 7 with oversight of the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: I guess. It's either 9 : Would it be or 10 and 11 MR. THOMAS: It would be both and 12 that's operations and the activities 13 lieutenant. 14 : Okay. And then after 15 them would it be and 16 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Yes. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: Well actually. Well yeah. 19 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 20 : So is that how it works? 21 These people up here, these are the operations 22 lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have 23 oversight of the SHU? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well if I'm not mistaken -. 25 It I'm not mistaken, I think, as I said, the EFTA00063713 102 1 captain is the SHU's house. So I would say -. 2 Well direct supervisor would be the -. 3 : Yeah, like the first line 4 supervisor. 5 MR. THOMAS: First line super would be the 6 operations lieutenant and activities 7 lieutenant. 8 : Okay. And would it be -- 9 MR. THOMAS: That goes for 10 : -- one or the other? 11 Would it be typically -? 12 MR. THOMAS: Well operations are head of 13 the whole building and then -. 14 : So if you had an issue in 15 the SHU, who would you contact? 16 MR. THOMAS: The operations lieutenant. 17 : Not the activities 18 lieutenant? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well activities doesn't come 20 in until 6:00 in the morning. 21 : Sure. So if the 22 activities lieutenant and the operations 23 lieutenant are both present, and there was -. 24 I know you weren't working this date during 25 that time. But if someone, when they're both EFTA00063714 103 1 on duty, who would be contacted? Activities or 2 operations? Or is it either? 3 MR. THOMAS: I - you would just say 4 whatever SHU needed. You say operations. You 5 say operations . It really depends on the 6 situation. 7 : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: Depends on the situation 9 whether you would call the activities or the 10 operations but 9 out of ten times mostly with 11 this you call operations. 12 : And does the activities 13 lieutenant sit in operations? 14 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 15 : So how does that work? 16 So for instance, if you -- 17 MR. THOMAS: They can be anywhere in the 18 building. 19 : -- call operations. Are 20 those two individuals together -- 21 MR. THOMAS: No. They're -- 22 -- typically? 23 MR. THOMAS: normally not together. 24 They can be anywhere in the building. 25 : So would you ever call on EFTA00063715 104 1 say activities. 2 MR. THOMAS: There could be an instance 3 where you call and say activities when you 4 don't want to bother -. It depends like I said 5 depending on the situation. 6 : Okay. And on your - when 7 you were in the SHU on August 10th, who would 8 have been - who would have had oversight as 9 lieutenant on August 10th? 10 MR. THOMAS: 11 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 13 : Lieutenant 14 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant, sir. 15 : Okay. Great. And then I 16 think that she left at 6:00 a.m. Who would 17 have then taken over responsibility? Would it 18 have been 19 MR. THOMAS: Uh, . Yes. 20 : Okay. Who is lieutenant 21 -? And I don't know exactly how to pronounce 22 his name, but 23 MR. THOMAS: He's a Um, I -. 24 : No-no-no. Not on this. 25 I'm sorry. Who is he? Not looking at this. EFTA00063716 105 1 Do you know who he is? Lieutenant 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 : Lieutenant 4 MR. THOMAS: He's a lieutenant at MCC. I 5 think he's might be just the quarterly SHU 6 lieutenant I guess. 7 : He was the SHU 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 10 : Okay. Do you know if he 11 was the SHU lieutenant in August of 2019? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I'm sure - 13 . I don't know. 14 : So that's not something 15 that you would know -- 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. 17 during the day -. 18 MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. 19 : So that -? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 21 : So that's nothing -? 22 MR. THOMAS: But it's like from the 23 roster. I'm sure they posted it, it's probably 24 somewhere on the roster somewhere. But I mean 25 if he say he's the SHU lieutenant, he's the SHU EFTA00063717 106 1 lieutenant. I don't -. If he was that SHU 2 lieutenant. If it was his quarter to have it, 3 then he's the SHU lieutenant. 4 : Okay. Do you know if he 5 was off on August 9, 2019? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know (Indiscernible 7 *01:17:42) 8 : You don't know. Sure. 9 Absolutely. Did you have any communications 10 with Lieutenant with regard to Epstein 11 being housed within the MCC? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 : Or in the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 : No? No - any kind of 16 emails or any kind of communication? When I 17 say communication, I mean verbal -- 18 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 19 : emails, anything? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, not that I know of. No. 21 Not -. I can't recall any. 22 : Okay. So did Lieutenant 23 ever provide you with any kind of special 24 instructions with regard to Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00063718 107 1 : Did Lieutenant every 2 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 3 cellmate when he was assigned to the SHU? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 : Do you know who is 6 Operations Lieutenant ? I guess he 7 was the operations lieutenant. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 : Is he regularly the 10 operations lieutenant? 11 MR. THOMAS: It - it -. 12 : At that time? 13 MR. THOMAS: It varies. You know it's a 14 rotating shift, so they could have switched 15 shifts at that time. I don't It varies. 16 It varies. 17 : Okay. So according to 18 this August 9th. 19 MR. THOMAS: This says he comes in at - 20 what is it 6:00 and 8:00 - 8:00 to 4:00 or 7:00 21 to 10:00, whichever one. 22 : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Well it says 8:00, so it 24 would be 8:00 to 4:00. 25 : Okay. I think that, from EFTA00063719 108 1 my understanding, some of the lieutenants were 2 actually working two hours before. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 : So I think he was 5 actually 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Although it's 6 confusing on this, by looking at the roster. 7 So when he was on, would have he been 8 responsible for overall oversight of the SHU? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. If he was operations 10 lieutenant. Yeah. 11 : Okay. Did you have any 12 communications with in regard to Epstein? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 : Or the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 : No? So not even any kind 17 of - not even talking about Epstein, with 18 anything to do with your responsibilities in 19 the SHU - with 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 : Okay. And again, I'm 22 going to say these names just to try to change 23 things around. 24 MR. THOMAS: Fine. 25 : Did Lieutenant EFTA00063720 109 1 every provide you with special instructions 2 with regard to Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 : Did Lieutenant ever 5 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 6 celimate while he was assigned to the SHU? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 : Who is Lieutenant 9 ? You don't even know? 10 MR. THOMAS: He just started there I 11 think. I want to say he just started there. 12 (Indiscernible *01:19:52) just a transfer now. 13 He probably was there maybe two months. I 14 think if I -. I vaguely remember him. 15 MR. THOMAS: Do you know if he had any 16 involvement or oversight of the SHU? 17 MR. THOMAS: I probably spoke to him 18 twice. 19 : Twice? And do you know 20 what those communications entailed? 21 MR. THOMAS: Time (Indiscernible 22 *01:20:01) 23 : Anything to do with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: Or EFTA00063721 110 1 : Or operations in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 : No? Never provided you 4 any special instructions with Epstein. 5 MR. THOMAS: No. He never provided you 6 any special instructions with Epstein. 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 : Never told you that 9 Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 : Okay. What about Senior 12 Officer Specialist 13 II 14 MR. THOMAS: Uh-huh. Do I know her? Yes. 15 : Yeah. So on August 9th 16 if you look at this. It looks like she was the 17 activities lieutenant 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 : -- from what appears to 20 be - It says 2:00 21 you weren't -- 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm not 23 : -- there at that time. 24 Correct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. p.m. to 10:00 p.m. Obviously EFTA00063722 111 1 : Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn't there. 3 : You weren't there. 4 Correct. At any time did you have any 5 communications with SOS as far as 6 Epstein? 7 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 8 : Did she ever give you any 9 special instructions with Epstein? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 : Did she ever tell you 12 that Epstein was required the have a cellmate? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 : While assigned to the 15 SHU? No? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 : Now we're going to talk 18 to the staff members in the SHU on August 10th 19 when you were there. 20 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 21 : Alright. What BOP 22 employees worked in the SHU on August 10, 2019 23 from approximately 1200 a.m. to 6:30 a.m.? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um, 25 : And yourself? EFTA00063723 112 1 MR. THOMAS: And myself. 2 : Okay. And what was your 3 role in the SHU on August 10, 2019? 4 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2. She was SHU 1. 5 : And what does that mean? 6 MR. THOMAS: It just means that it's just 7 where you was assigned. It's just where I was 8 assigned. I was assigned there for overtime. 9 She was assigned there for overtime. 10 : Is there a difference 11 between SHU 1 and SHU 2 though? Like different 12 responsibilities? 13 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't - you have to read 14 the post orders. I couldn't tell you. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: exactly what the -. 17 : Is there a hierarchy? 18 MR. THOMAS: I want -. It depends. I 19 mean it really, really depends. That's 20 definitely hard to explain because is there a 21 hierarchy? No. 22 : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Remember because she has -. 24 It's no hierarchy. 25 : Is the person with the EFTA00063724 113 1 most experience in the BOP in command? Or how 2 does that work? When you're in there with 3 another person. There's only two of you. Is 4 there someone that's kind of in charge? 5 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say -. They're 6 going to say SHU -. How it is the BOP. How it 7 is at the jail. They say SHU 1 is in charge. 8 : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: But then they with SHU 1 10 or somebody with more time. Like if I have 11 more time than SHU 1. How are you going to be 12 in charge when you have more time? It depends. 13 But then again, I'm non-custody. So it's all 14 different dynamics when it comes to that. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But they will say SHU 1 is 17 usually in charge. If you bid for SHU 1 -. If 18 you did a bid, they'll say SHU 1 is in charge 19 of the SHU. 20 : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: But -. 22 : And you were SHU 2 that 23 day? 24 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2 that day. Yes. 25 : Okay. But because you EFTA00063725 114 1 had seniority, is that -? 2 MR. THOMAS: It doesn't play out like 3 that. It doesn't play like that. In a black 4 and white sense, it doesn't play out like that. 5 : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: You're both equally 7 responsible because she's SHU 2 and I'm SHU 2. 8 I mean it just - it doesn't - and on paper it 9 plays out that she's SHU 1. She's in charge 10 and I'm SHU 2, but it really doesn't play out 11 like that. 12 : So you're both serving 13 the same roles? 14 MR. THOMAS: Were both serving the same 15 roles, especially on morning watch. We're both 16 doing the same thing 17 : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: were both serving the 19 same. 20 : Same duties a 21 responsibilities. 22 MR. THOMAS: Same duties and 23 responsibilities. Well because you can't do 24 one thing without the other. So. 25 : Okay. Because pretty EFTA00063726 115 1 much everything you do requires two people. Is 2 that why? 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. Yes. 4 : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 6 : And did you replace 7 • 8 MR. THOMAS: • 9 10 replace him at 12:00 a.m.? . Did you 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I guess. 12 Yes. If I can't remember if they said it w