DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 12, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00062649 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00062650 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is with the U.S. 3 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 4 General New York Field Office and these are my 5 credentials. All right. This interview with 6 federal Bureau of Prisons lieutenant 7 is being conducted as part 8 of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is July 12, 2021, and the time is 11 1:06 p.m. This interview is being conducted at 12 the federal correctional institution Danbury, 13 located in Danbury, Connecticut. This is the 14 training center. What is it the -? 15 MR. : SIPE Center. 16 MR. : SIPE Center? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What does it stand for do 19 you know? 20 MR. : Mm.... 21 MR. : SPI - whatever. It's the 22 training center. 23 MR. : SIPE. Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. It's the training 25 center right outside of the FCI Danbury on the EFTA00062651 4 1 FCI Danbury property. Also present is DOJ OIG 2 Special Agent . This interview 3 will be recorded by me, SSA 4 Could everyone please identify themselves for 5 the record and spell your last name. To start, 6 again I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 7 8 MR. : I am Special Agent 9 10 MR. : I am Lieutenant 11 12 MR. : Thank you sir. This is 13 an official DOJ OIG investigation to the death 14 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 15 circumstances, and you're being asked to 16 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 17 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 18 the DOJ OIG? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Thank you sir. This is a 21 form that we have for our voluntary interviews. 22 We give this to everybody that's voluntary just 23 so you know that it is voluntary. You know you 24 can stop the interview any time. You don't 25 have to answer our questions. You can leave. • EFTA00062652 5 1 I'm going to read it to you for the record. 2 It's United States Department of Justice Office 3 of the Inspector General Warnings and 4 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 5 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 6 being asked to provide information as part of 7 an investigation being conducted by the Office 8 of the Inspector General. This investigation 9 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 10 General Act as amended. This investigation 11 pertains to job performance failure and 12 security failure. This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 15 be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 19 or both. Then there's the waiver which says I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me. And there's 25 the - right here - employee signature and EFTA00062653 6 1 employee's name. You want to read that 2 yourself. Feel free to. If you agree just 3 sign 4 MR. : So it says job performance 5 failure and security failure according to-. 6 MR. : That's for everybody. 7 We're giving that - that's just the blanket 8 statement we're providing to every single 9 person that we interview. 10 MR. -: .mm 11 MR. : It doesn't necessarily 12 mean that you've done anything wrong. It's 13 just that's what the investigation is looking 14 into. You know security failure of the 15 institution - job performance failure. Because 16 someone died in this matter. And looking into 17 the surrounding circumstances with it. 18 Everybody's being provided that same - 19 MR. : Okay. 20 21 MR. : -- that same information. 22 Okay. So I just singed my name as the Special 23 Agent. And I'm printing my name. Again this 24 is 25 MR. : This is Special Agent EFTA00062654 7 1 I am signing as a witness. 2 MR. : Okay. And Special Agent 3 , if you don't mind, just place the date 4 and time. Again it is July 12, 2021, and the 5 time is 1:10 p.m. now. And the place is FCI 6 Danbury Training Center. Thank you, sir. 7 Okay. Did you understand that form? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. Cool. Is there 10 any other questions you want to ask about that 11 though? 12 MR. : no. 13 MR. : No? 14 MR. : I mean it's voluntary is that 15 right? 16 MR. : Yeah. Exactly. 17 Voluntary. You don't have to answer. And 18 again that job performance failure - security 19 failure that's something we're telling 20 everybody that that's the purpose of our 21 interviews is to figure out - 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. what went wrong and 24 all that kind of stuff with regard to this 25 matter. Before starting the interview, I'd EFTA00062655 8 1 like to place you under oath. Lieutenant 2 can you please raise your right hand. 3 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 4 the truth during this interview? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Thank you sir. All 7 right. Please just let me know if you don't 8 understand these questions and I'll try to 9 rephrase them or put them in a different way 10 add clarification. So what is your home 11 address? 12 MR. _: 13 MR. : And what is your date of 14 birth? 15 MR. -: 16 MR. : And your Social Security 17 number? 18 MR. 19 MR. : Thank you. And your 20 current cell phone number. 21 MR. 22 MR. : And what's your highest 23 level of education? 24 MR. : Um bachelors. 25 MR. : Where? EFTA00062656 9 1 MR. : Criminal justice. 2 MR. : Criminal justice. Where 3 did you get that from? 4 MR. -: 5 MR. : Is that in New York City? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : And when did you 8 graduate? 9 MR. : 2006, I think. 10 MR. : Okay. And what did you 11 do prior to working for the BOP? 12 MR. : Uh TSA. 13 MR. : Um okay. And what did 14 you do for TSA? 15 MR. : I was a screener at JFK. 16 MR. : How long did you do that? 17 MR. : Mm six and a half years. 18 MR. : From approximately when 19 until when? 20 MR. : '02 to '09. 21 MR. : '02 to '09. Okay. And 22 do you have any military service? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. And how long have 25 you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? EFTA00062657 10 1 MR. Mm like about 20 years. 2 MR. : Twenty years. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Oh, okay. So you did it 5 while you were with TSA? 6 MR. : I did TSA is federal. And I 7 8 MR. : No-no-no. With the BOP. 9 How long have you served with the BOP? 10 MR. : The BOP? 11 MR. : Sorry. 12 MR. : Twelve years. 13 MR. : Twelve years. Okay. 14 From when until when. 15 MR. : '09 to present. 16 MR. : What was your Enter on 17 Duty Date? 18 MR. 19 MR. : Okay. Any breaks of 20 service? 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : Okay. And when did you 23 do you know when you graduated BOP training? 24 MR. Mm I think it's September or 25 August. Mm June 21st I think uh 2009/ EFTA00062658 11 1 MR. : Of ;09? 2 MR. : You're talking about GLYNCO, 3 right? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah '09. 6 MR. '09. Okay. And when and 7 where was your first office assignment with the 8 BOP? 9 MR. : New York. 10 MR. : Uh which institution? 11 MR. : MCC. 12 MR. : Were you with MCC the 13 whole time? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Oh, okay. And when did 16 you become a lieutenant? 17 MR. : What's this '21 - 2019, `18 18 I think December 17th I did a temp. 19 MR. : December of 2017? 20 MR. '17. Yeah. 21 MR. : And when did you leave 22 the MCC? 23 MR. : I left December '19. 24 MR. : December of 2019? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00062659 12 1 MR. : And then is that when you 2 came here to the FCI Danbury? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And um did you come here 5 for a promotion? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So were you a GS9 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. : I was a 9 there but I got TDY 10 down there. So I was 11 also there. 11 MR. : Oh you were? 12 MR. : Yeah. I got TDY for about 13 four months. 14 MR. : Okay. Can you just - 15 what does that mean? 16 MR. : Temporary Duty. Like I 17 was picked up. I got my promotion, but I had 18 to stay down there for a few months until I 19 came up here. 20 MR. : Okay. So FCI Danbury. 21 You were promoted to an 11 but they had you 22 stay down there as an 11 for four months? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So when were you actually 25 picked up? EFTA00062660 13 1 MR. : About three months. In 2 October, September, October, November, three 3 months. Yeah. 4 MR. : So when did you actually 5 get your promotion? 6 MR. Mm September. 7 MR. : Of 2019? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And when did you 10 physically come to the FCI Danbury? 11 MR. : December. 12 MR. : December. Okay. And 13 your current position is still GS11 lieutenant? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what was your 16 position at the MCC on August 9th and 10th of 17 2019? 18 MR. Uh August you said 10th? 19 MR. : Yeah. So August - you 20 said September you got your 11 so I'm assuming 21 in August of 2019 you were 22 MR. : I was a 9 then. 23 MR. : -- a 9 lieutenant. 24 MR. : Yeah. In August yeah. 25 MR. : And this is just for my EFTA00062661 14 1 own knowledge. What is the difference between 2 a 9 lieutenant and an 11 lieutenant? 3 MR. : Pretty much you could 4 if you at 9 you can't run the institution. 5 Because it's not a higher rank. So like 11 or 6 the only ones who can without a captain. 7 You're the highest. But a 9 you can't be the 8 highest. 9 MR. : So does that mean like as 10 far as like being the ops lieutenant versus the 11 activities' lieutenant? 12 MR. Nah. You could be ops as a 13 9. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But - but -. 16 MR. : So like acting captain 17 you mean? 18 MR. : No. Say like if it's a 9, 19 it's like evening watch. Four to twelve or 20 midnight. The 11 is the highest authority. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : As a 9 you can't do that. 23 You have to have 11 or above for 9 to be in 24 authority. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00062662 15 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So you can be an ops 3 lieutenant but somebody else has to be there 4 that's higher than you? 5 MR. : Yeah. If you a 9 yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you recall what 7 shift you worked on August 9th and 10th of 8 2019? 9 MR. : August 9th? What day was 10 that? 11 MR. : It's August 9th - sorry. 12 We'll just talk about August 9th. August 9th, 13 2019 that was the day before Epstein was found 14 dead. It was a Friday. 15 MR. : So the Friday. I probably 16 was day watch. 17 MR. : Okay. I'm going to give 18 you the daily roster from that date just do you 19 can reprint it. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Um anytime I give you a 22 document - you don't have to do it right away - 23 but you can - I'm just going to have you 24 initial and date each document. It's just for 25 the record we can say that's the document you EFTA00062663 16 1 looked at. And we don't like replace 2 something. You know what I mean? 3 MR. : Mm-hm. 4 MR. : Um so on that can you 5 find your name and see where it is that you 6 worked just to verify? 7 MR. : Yeah. I did overtime from 8 6:00 to 2:00. 9 MR. : From 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 10 p.m.? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : And that was on August 13 9th? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Do you know if you - 16 there were the specific times that you worked? 17 I know for instance the individual that was the 18 activities' lieutenant after you. She didn't 19 start until 4:00 p.m. because she had her 20 regular time shift until 4:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : Would that mean that you 23 had worked until 4:00? Or would you still have 24 stopped at 2:00? 25 MR. : Uh I don't know. EFTA00062664 17 1 MR. : Do you usually have to 2 wait until the new activities' lieutenant comes 3 on board? 4 MR. Mm that's was -. But 5 she wasn't a lieutenant here though. 6 MR. : No. She was an SIS, but 7 she got I guess temporarily promoted. At least 8 for that day to be able to be the activities' 9 lieutenant. But she was in attorney conference 10 until 4:00 p.m. And she didn't start as the 11 activities' lieutenant until 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. : I don't remember. But I know 13 we usually - even though it says 8:00 to 4:00, 14 we usually do 6:00 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00 15 anyway. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : We relieve people early. 18 MR. : Right. And my 19 understanding is it's for traffic purposes. 20 MR. : So if the 9th I would have 21 came on then. She wouldn't have to stay until 22 4:00. I don't know. 23 MR. : How does that typically 24 work though I guess. Would it be - do you have 25 to be relieved before you can leave? EFTA00062665 18 1 MR. Mm you mean for me? 2 MR. : Yeah. Like if you're the 3 activities' lieutenant at the MCC back in 4 August of 2019. Are you allowed to leave 5 before the new activities' lieutenant takes 6 over? Or do you have to wait until she's done? 7 I'm just trying to help refresh your memory if 8 you can -. 9 MR. : I'm not sure. I know how we 10 do it is someone day I got you. I'll cover 11 you. Then we relieved. 12 MR. : But you don't 13 specifically remember this date? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Not the fact that like 16 Epstein died the day after. Does that help you 17 like kind of refresh your memory of what your 18 involvement may have been? 19 MR. : I know I was doing day watch. 20 I was doing day watch. I do know that. But as 21 far as who relieved and all that. No. I don't 22 remember that. 23 MR. : All right. We can 24 probably just grab your time and attendance 25 records then later just to try to EFTA00062666 19 1 (Indiscernible * *00:12:34) that down. But you 2 just can't remember at this point? 3 MR. : What you asked me was I 4 there? 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just I 6 mean from the 2:00 to 4:00. You don't remember 7 if you would have - you had to wait until 8 was actually in place before you left or 9 not. 10 MR. : Nah. I don't know. I could 11 have been there at 4:00 because I left at 2:00. 12 I'm not sure. 13 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So you either worked 16 until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m. you just don't 17 recall. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. And who did 20 you - on that date - who would have you 21 primarily worked with? 22 MR. Mm I don't know. Because 23 Friday -. I don't know why I'm doing overtime 24 on Friday. I'm trying to think. And is 25 normally not the ops lieutenant though either. EFTA00062667 20 1 MR. : Is that because he was a 2 9? 3 MR. is 11. He's SHU 4 lieutenant. 5 MR. : At that time was the 6 SHU lieutenant. 7 MR. : Oh no-no-no was the SHU 8 lieutenant. Okay. So if I'm on Friday and 9 Saturday, then 10 MR. : Well here if -. 11 MR. : Maybe. I don't know. You 12 have my what's her name records? 13 MR. : This is Saturday. So I'm 14 giving you the daily assignment roster. 15 MR. : I'm thinking this is my day 16 off. I'm thinking Friday was my day off. So I 17 came in for the overtime on Friday. If I'm on 18 Friday and Saturday, then I would be ops. 19 That's what I'm thinking. 20 MR. : Did you work on Saturday? 21 MR. : Saturday I was off. 22 MR. : Okay. So you're not on 23 that list that I just gave you for Saturday? 24 MR. : No. I should be on day 25 watch. EFTA00062668 21 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : This the day Epstein died 3 right? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Yeah. I wasn't there that 6 day. 7 MR. : Okay. But you just can't 8 remember if you worked until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 9 p.m. on August 9th. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Again there's no reason 12 that I'm asking you this specifically right 13 now. It's just to try to make sure we know 14 what time you worked there. 15 MR. : Well you trying to see if 16 there's a pattern of -. 17 MR. : no-no-no. Not a pattern. 18 It's not looking at you. It's just to - you 19 know when we talk to people, we say like what 20 time were you there from. Just because in 21 knowing that didn't start until - 22 because there's no reason for us at this point 23 to get your time and attendance records. 24 Because again we're just talking to everybody 25 that was there on each day. EFTA00062669 22 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : I'm just trying to -. 3 When we talk to you, we just need to lock down 4 each person. What time were you there until? 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : We have specific questions 7 about what happened during the day. But if 8 you're not there during the day during that 9 specific time -. 10 MR. : Some questions might not 11 apply to you. 12 MR. : Apply to you. That's what 13 we're trying to figure out. So what time were 14 you there until. 15 MR. : I mean so you want to ask me 16 questions up until 4:00 is what you're saying? 17 MR. : We'll ask you 18 specifically questions -. 19 MR. : Well you can do it but if I 20 don' remember I just say I don't remember. 21 MR. : Yeah. That's fine. You 22 just don't, but at this point you just don't 23 know if you were there until 4:00. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Um and you don't remember EFTA00062670 23 1 relieving . Or relieving you. 2 MR. : no. 3 MR. : And do you remember being 4 relieved by anyone? 5 MR. : no. 6 MR. : No? All right. But I 7 guess then that goes back to my original 8 question. Do you need to be relieved by 9 someone in order to leave? 10 MR. : Um normally. It depends. 11 MR. : Can there be just an ops 12 lieutenant and no activities' lieutenant on 13 during the day? 14 MR. : Yeah. That could be any day. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So it's just - there's 18 no-. these are genuine questions. We don't 19 know the answers to these. So that's not like 20 abnormal to have like just like a two-hour gap 21 where there's no activities' lieutenant? 22 MR. : No. We was going a lot of 23 work up until this. We were doing a lot of 24 work. So some days you'll be there. I'm quite 25 sure looking at the records, you'll see my name EFTA00062671 24 1 by itself. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : So. 4 MR. : On some days there was 5 just like one activity or one ops lieutenant? 6 There was nobody -? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. And that was 9 Monday through Friday? Not just on weekends? 10 MR. : Any day. 11 MR. : Or night shifts? Or 12 morning? 13 MR. : Any days. It was a busy time 14 back then. 15 MR. : Yes. Um. Okay. Do you 16 know at that time who was your supervisor? 17 MR. : Uh the captain. Captain 18 19 MR. : Okay. And as the 20 activities' lieutenant, and you said it was day 21 watch? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : What were your duties and 24 responsibilities? 25 MR. : Rounds um orderly EFTA00062672 25 1 institution. Running the institution. 2 MR. : And what does a round 3 consist of as a lieutenant? 4 MR. : Going up to the unit. 5 Speaking to the officer. If you want, go to 6 unit team. Do the tiers. See what's going on. 7 MR. : Now at that time, did 8 lieutenant -? When you say go do tiers. Were 9 Lieutenants responsible for conducting rounds 10 of inmates as well? Like you know walking up 11 and down the tiers to make sure? 12 MR. : Something like that. I mean 13 that's - are we - the lieutenants responsible 14 for that? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know that that's 16 the CO's primary responsibility. But when you 17 are conducting a round in like a unit, 18 specifically we'll talk about the SHU. If you 19 visit the SHU, and on this date, there was no 20 SHU lieutenant. Correct? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So if you were visiting 23 the SHU, are you responsible to conduct any 24 rounds of the tiers as a lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah. The lieutenant has to EFTA00062673 26 1 make a round in SHU each shift. 2 MR. : So when I say - but when 3 you visit the SHU, is it just visiting the SHU? 4 Checking in with the officers? Or do you - I 5 mean - checking in with the COs or is it 6 actually also doing a round of - where the 7 inmates are located and looking in their cells? 8 MR. : I mean yeah, you're supposed 9 to do a round. 10 MR. : Okay. So that -. 11 MR. : You mean exactly what do you 12 supposed to specifically do? 13 MR. : Yeah. I guess what I'm 14 asking is what does a lieutenant round in the 15 SHU consist of? 16 MR. : I don't know. I know for me, 17 I used to like to go down the tiers. 18 MR. : To actually check on the 19 inmates. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So you're actually doing 22 -? 23 MR. : Do a whole complete round. 24 MR. : So you're actually doing 25 a round of the inmates not just doing a round EFTA00062674 27 1 in the SHU to say hey are you guys good with 2 the officers. 3 MR. : Yeah. Unless something 4 happens. Like if something happens you know. 5 They just say you all right - it was a BA. All 6 right. I'll be back or something like that. 7 But. 8 MR. : Right-right. You mean if 9 you got called out or something like that - you 10 needed the run. 11 MR. : That or they call you. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Something specific to a 14 specific tale or -. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But were you 16 responsible - and this is just in general not 17 just specifically you? It's any lieutenant. 18 If there's no SHU lieutenant responsible to do 19 a round on day watch of the inmates when they 20 visit the SHU. 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You're not sure. But you 23 did. 24 MR. : That day? 25 MR. : No I mean just in EFTA00062675 28 1 general. Like when you would visit the SHU you 2 would do that? 3 MR. : Yeah. Say like if I fill in 4 or whatever. And there's no SHU lieutenant to 5 say hey you got to make a round. All right. 6 Or you have activities do it or whatever. 7 MR. : So ops lieutenant tells 8 you to do the round? 9 MR. : Anyone could say hey I'm 10 going up there or hey I got the round or 11 whatever. 12 MR. : Does a lieutenant have to 13 do a round on that shift? 14 MR. : That would be yeah you have 15 to do a round. 16 MR. : Okay. So at least one 17 lieutenant on day watch on August 9, 2019, had 18 to do a round in the SHU of the inmates? 19 MR. : On day watch? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Uh yeah. 22 MR. : What about night watch 23 and morning watch? Do they have to do it on 24 those? 25 MR. : Night watch and morning watch EFTA00062676 29 1 yeah. 2 MR. : So every shift a 3 lieutenant has to 4 MR. : Three shifts you got to do a 5 round. 6 MR. : And that -? 7 MR. : Supposed to do a round. 8 MR. : And that's with the 9 inmates not just checking in? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. 11 MR. : Oh you're not sure. But 12 you would? When you did it? 13 MR. : I'm on (Indiscernible * 14 *00:19:51). I'm trying to move around. 15 like to hit the tiers. 16 MR. : Okay. Cool. Do you remember 17 who you replaced on that day? 18 MR. : Who I relieved? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who I relieved? 21 MR. : Who relieved -? 22 MR. : Nobody. 23 MR. : So because there's no 24 activities' lieutenant prior to you? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062677 30 1 MR. : And that's because yeah 2 there's only - for the morning watch is there 3 only an ops lieutenant? 4 MR. : Yep. 5 MR. : So you were the first one 6 in on that day? And you said you arrived when? 7 MR. : Um 6:00. 8 MR. : 6:00 a.m. Okay. And you 9 said you just don't recall who replaced you or 10 if you stayed until 4:00. Correct? 11 MR. : Yeah. Did you look at the 12 video? 13 MR. : We didn't - haven't had a 14 reason to yet. I just assumed you would have 15 remembered. 16 MR. : No. I don't remember. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : It was '19. 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No just 20 because of the - you know this was probably one 21 of the biggest things that's ever happened. 22 MR. : Yeah but that's why I'm like 23 why are they asking about it now? That's why 24 I'm like -. 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean now is just EFTA00062678 31 1 because there's things that have happened in 2 the past month that now is creating a -- 3 MR. : Oh with the case. 4 MR. : Yeah. That we now have 5 to interview a ton of people to be able to find 6 out who was there, what happened, and all that 7 kind of stuff. 8 MR. : Yeah. But I'm not sure about 9 the time on that. 10 MR. : All right. And are you 11 familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Did you ever work or 14 visit the SHU while Epstein was assigned to the 15 SHU in July and August 2019? 16 MR. : Probably yeah. 17 MR. : Did Epstein have a 18 celimate when he was in the SHU? 19 MR. : Up until that day, right? 20 MR. : Yes. And do you know if 21 there was a reason why Epstein was assigned a 22 celimate? 23 MR. : In SHU you're supposed to be 24 double bunked. 25 MR. : Okay. So -. EFTA00062679 32 1 MR. : Even if you don't have the 2 whole prior thing before. 3 MR. : So everybody in the SHU 4 is supposed to be? 5 MR. : Not everybody. But you got 6 certain cases. But he was supposed to have a 7 bunk. 8 MR. : So as far as who would - 9 who wouldn't be assigned a cellmate? 10 MR. : House alone, rec alone 11 inmates. You know hunger strike inmates, 12 NPOs... 13 MR. : But Epstein was one of 14 those inmates that should have had a cellmate? 15 MR. : Yeah. He was a regular 16 inmate. Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. Um are you aware 18 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 19 July 23, 2019? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And were you one of the 22 responding officers to that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Were you - did you have 25 any involvement with it? EFTA00062680 33 1 MR. : That incident? No. 2 MR. : No. Do you know what 3 transpired? 4 MR. : They say he put something 5 around his neck. In his cell. And that was 6 it. 7 MR. : Did you ever hear any 8 rumors that his cell mate may have tried to 9 harm him? 10 MR. : Oh yeah. You're talking 11 about um Yeah. I heard about that. Yeah. 12 MR. : What did you hear about 13 that? 14 MR. : That it was a ploy for him to 15 get bail. Something like that. 16 MR. : All right. So did you -? 17 Is your understanding that he actually did try 18 to harm himself? Or was it your understanding 19 that his cell mate tried to harm him? 20 MR. : You're talking about the 21 rumor? 22 MR. : Yeah. What is your 23 understanding of 24 MR. : The rumor was the guy -- 25 MR. : -- what actually -? EFTA00062681 34 1 MR. : -- also had a high-profile 2 case. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : And I think Epstein was up 5 for a bail hearing. So they made it look like 6 he was doing that in order to get bail. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you think there was 10 any legitimacy to the rumor? 11 MR. : I don't know. Not after 12 this. Nah. 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : All right. So do you 16 believe that he did actually try to harm 17 himself on July 23rd? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. Um do you know as 20 a result of July 23rd if Epstein - if anything 21 happened with Epstein? Was he removed from the 22 SHU and placed anywhere else? 23 MR. : Mm. He went to suicide 24 watch. 25 MR. : Okay. And what happens EFTA00062682 35 1 on suicide watch? Is that outside of the SHU? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And then after you get 4 placed on suicide watch. Is that a temporary 5 thing and then you get moved over to psych 6 observation? 7 MR. : Not all the time. No. 8 That's up to psych. Psych makes that call. 9 MR. : Do you - are you aware if 10 Epstein was outside of the SHU and on suicide 11 watch or psych observation for approximately 12 one week? 13 MR. : I know he was definitely on 14 there. Because I remember seeing him. 15 MR. : You saw him there? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Um is that because you 18 were doing rounds? Or why did you see him 19 there? 20 MR. : I had to - because I'm the 21 one who does the showers. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : For suicide inmates. Or 24 psych watch if you're down there. So he was 25 down there one day - probably a couple days. EFTA00062683 36 1 But I know I took him to the shower one time. 2 Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. So you had some 4 interaction with him. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : While he was on suicide 7 watch. 8 MR. : Suicide watch. Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. And I just thought 10 - I thought you were only on suicide watch for 11 like 24 hours. And then after that it was 12 called psych observation. Is that not your 13 understanding? 14 MR. : It's up to psych. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That's a psych call. 17 MR. : But is it in the same 18 they're in the same location. Correct? 19 MR. : Yeah but people who are on 20 suicide watch longer than 24 hours. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So your understanding the 24 whole time he was there it was called suicide 25 watch? EFTA00062684 37 1 MR. : I don't remember. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : The whole time he was there. 4 MR. : Um do you know when he 5 was removed from suicide watch? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Do you know why he was 8 removed from suicide watch? 9 MR. : He would be moved because 10 psych said it's okay. 11 MR. : Okay. And when someone 12 is on suicide watch, what does it entail? 13 MR. : You have a suicide smock. 14 Suicide mattress. And a suicide blanket. And 15 you allow pretty much no items unless they 16 approved it, there's a book they have. 17 MR. : Okay. And what's the 18 difference? What is the difference between 19 psych observation? What does that entail? 20 MR. : You got the clothes. 21 MR. : All right. So when 22 you're on suicide watch, you don't have 23 clothes? 24 MR. : Naked. 25 MR. : You're naked the whole EFTA00062685 38 1 time? And you know if Epstein was naked that 2 whole time? 3 MR. : He had a smock and a -. 4 Yeah. He didn't have no clothes. 5 MR. : He didn't have clothes 6 when he was on suicide watch? 7 MR. : You can't have clothes on 8 suicide watch. 9 MR. : Okay. All right. So 10 does it sound right that he would have been 11 removed about a week later around July 30th. 12 Does that sound like a date -- 13 MR. : I don't know. 14 MR. : -- or you're not sure? 15 MR. : Mm-hm I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. Did you ever 17 receive any instructions from anyone with 18 regard to Epstein being assigned a cellmate 19 after he came back from suicide watch? 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : You don't remember any 22 verbal conversations or anything like that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : All right. I'm going to 25 show you an email. And then you can tell me if EFTA00062686 39 1 you remember receiving it. An email from a 2 Do you know who that is? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. It's to 5 Suicide Watch / Psych Observation Update. And 6 that's also what the subject is. And it's from 7 July 30, 2019. It says, "Inmate Epstein" and 8 it gives his reg number. "Is being taken off 9 of psych observation and needs to be housed 10 with an appropriate cellmate." Do you recall 11 receiving -? 12 MR. : Yeah. It's a generic. We 13 always get those. 14 MR. : You get those? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : There's names on the 17 back. It shows that you were one of them and 18 that you read it. Do you see your name? Yeah. 19 It would be underill So. It's all 20 alphabetical. 21 MR. : It's under what? 22 MR. : It would be your first 23 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. 24 MR. : So does that ring a bell? 25 Do you remember getting that? EFTA00062687 40 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. Cool. And then do 3 you recall -? So you are aware that he needed 4 a cellmate then. Correct? You already said 5 that you knew he needed one because he was a 6 regular inmate. Right? 7 MR. : Yeah. But I don't know what 8 this is at 12:30 the 30th right? 9 MR. : Yeah 7:30 - so yeah. 10 MR. : Oh it was 7:30 July 30th? 11 So he got off on July 30th? 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Placed back in the SHU 15 and required a cellmate. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And just before we 18 forget. Do you mind just initialing and dating 19 each one of these documents just so that they 20 don't start piling up? And as well as that 21 email. Thank you, sir. Now do you remember 22 having any conversations with anyone else like 23 verbal. Like or anybody regarding the 24 need for him to have a cellmate? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062688 41 1 MR. : Because, I'm assuming, he 2 was the most high-profile if not one of the 3 most high-profile inmates at the time. 4 Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : So would that be 7 something that they would - people would 8 usually communicate with the activities and the 9 ops lieutenant about? 10 MR. : I mean if you got the email. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : You got a follow-up that 14 you wanted to ask something? 15 MR. : We'll finish up on this. 16 Because it's going back one. 17 MR. : No-no. Please. Go 18 ahead. 19 MR. : So you mentioned that you had 20 interacted with Epstein when he was on suicide 21 watch. You took him for his showers. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : How was the interactions with 24 him? 25 MR. : You know, cuff up, take him EFTA00062689 42 1 to the shower. 2 MR. : Did you ever talk to him? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Was he pleasant? Were there 5 any issues with that? 6 MR. : He was saying hey, while I'm 7 down here, pretty much he asked why he was down 8 here. I said well, he was like yeah, I'm not 9 suicidal, such-and-such. And you know let me 10 talk to psych so I could get off this. I don't 11 think he liked it. 12 MR. : This was immediately after 13 the July 23rd? 14 MR. : I don't know exactly what day 15 it was. But you know it was around there. 16 MR. : Got it. 17 MR. : We're going to follow-up 18 with some of those more lines of questioning 19 later on in the interview. Um so you don't 20 recall though receiving specific instructions 21 from Captain or anyone else with regard 22 to Epstein? You just - you do know he needed 23 one and you did get the email? 24 MR. : These come all the time. Any 25 inmate comes off of watch, they send it out. EFTA00062690 43 1 MR. : And should everyone know 2 if someone comes off of watch that they are 3 required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. : I'm not sure. I mean that's 5 what they do. They come out. Anyone comes off 6 suicide watch, you put them in with a cellmate. 7 MR. : Yeah. And that's pretty 8 general, common knowledge. Correct? And where 9 do you learn that? Is that from your daily 10 operations? Or do you learn that in training 11 as well? 12 MR. : I don't know. I guess it's 13 daily operations. 14 MR. : Okay. But most people 15 should know that a person coming off of suicide 16 watch is required to have a cellmate. 17 MR. : Uh I mean it depends. I 18 don't know. I know we get these emails though. 19 They send them out any time an inmate comes 20 off. You try to put them with a cellmate. But 21 then again like I said in the SHU, it's you 22 know. Because even if they come off suicide 23 watch, they don't -. Say like they come off 24 they stay in SHU for a year. They have to have 25 a cellmate for a year. You understand what I'm EFTA00062691 44 1 saying? So as far as the notice we get, but do 2 everyone know that? I'm not sure about that. 3 MR. : But you knew. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : How did you know though? 6 MR. : I got the email. 7 MR. : Okay. So, your knowledge 8 is from the email, but earlier, you said that 9 anybody in the SHU, anyway, needs to a cell 10 mate? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So, he had 13 basically two requirements to him. One, there 14 was the email that he received; also, the fact 15 that he was in the SHU, and he didn't have any 16 of those special requirements, like, he was 17 going to harm someone else, or something like 18 that, that he should have had a cellmate? 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : All right. And do you 21 know if you ever communicated that to anybody, 22 when you visited the SHU in July or August of 23 2019? 24 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 25 MR. : Like, the people that EFTA00062692 45 1 worked in the SHU, would have you would have 2 been as the activities' lieutenant, if you're 3 doing a round in there. Is that something that 4 you would address? 5 MR. : Bring up? Yeah. If I - yeah 6 - but if he had a - one - if he had a cellmate, 7 though. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Yeah. Bring something up if 10 they didn't. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : So, you'd only bring it 12 up if you knew he didn't have one? 13 MR. : So, like, if you say, hey, 14 guys, how many single cells I have? Such and 15 such. Hey, what's going on? Hey, well, this is 16 the reason. Yeah. 17 MR. : And is that something - 18 when you would visit the SHU - is that 19 something you would ask? How many single cells 20 do you have? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that a like one of the 23 check-the-box things? Does everybody that 24 visits the SHU -- 25 MR. : I can't speak for everybody. EFTA00062693 46 1 But I know, even as OIC, we said, hey, you know 2 the fine, we have single cells. Maneuver to 3 condense it for space. Stuff like that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, I don't know if everyone 6 (Indiscernible *00:32:18) into it. 7 MR. : But that's what you would 8 do? When you were the activities' lieutenant? 9 MR. : No. Sometimes. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : If I seen someone without, 12 hey, what's going on with this dude? Well, he's 13 housed (Indiscernible *00:32:28) room. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But when you would visit 17 the SHU, was that something you would address, 18 saying how many single cells do we got? 19 MR. : I'm not the SHU lieutenant. 20 MR. : Oh, only if you're the 21 SHU lieutenant? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : I'm talking about 24 MR. : The SHU lieutenant -- 25 MR. : -- when you do your EFTA00062694 47 1 rounds. 2 MR. : -- you do the rounds, you 3 only say it if you know that someone got - a 4 new come in. Okay, you got space for him. No. 5 Right now, we've got to put him in a single 6 cell, or something like that. 7 MR. : Okay. And were you ever 8 the SHU lieutenant? 9 MR. : At MCC? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : I don't think so. I was 12 never SHU lieutenant. 13 MR. : Okay. But do you 14 remember ever having any conversations with 15 anyone in the SHU -- 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- at the MCC about 18 Epstein and his cellmate requirement? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : No? All right. So, 21 referring to the duty assignment roster, who 22 were the MCC's supervisors on duty, with 23 responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 24 9, 2019, when you were working? 25 MR. : It would be me and EFTA00062695 48 1 MR. : So, the two of you would 2 be responsible? 3 MR. : On day watch. Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. And then, would it 5 be the same thing for the shift after you? 6 Would that be the activities' lieutenant and 7 the ops lieutenant? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And is that because, when 10 the SHU lieutenant is not there, activities' 11 lieutenant and ops lieutenant always have 12 oversight of the SHU? 13 MR. : Well, I told you we have to 14 make a round. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : In SHU. Yeah. 17 MR. : But that would be the 18 lieutenants - they would be the lieutenants 19 that would have oversight over the SHU, 20 correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. Pretty much. 22 MR. : Okay. On August 9th, 23 what communications did you have with any of 24 the other lieutenants with regard to Epstein 25 being housed with the MCC, or the MCC SHU? Can EFTA00062696 49 1 you recall? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : And again, thinking back, 4 this is like one of the biggest things that's 5 ever happened when you were there, this guy 6 dies. Can you remember any conversations you 7 had the day before, with anyone, with regards 8 to Epstein? 9 MR. : I just know that he used to 10 come to legal all the time. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Attorney conference, pretty 13 much the whole day. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : And that's about it. 16 MR. : And about what time would 17 he be moved to attorney conference? 18 MR. : Early. Like, probably 8:00 19 in the morning. 20 MR. : And who would be the 21 person that would move him there? 22 MR. : The SHU staff. Get him out 23 the SHU. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : He was in SHU. EFTA00062697 50 1 MR. : And what would the - as 2 the activities' lieutenant, did you visit him 3 at all in attorney conference, or check on him? 4 Is that part of your round process? 5 MR. : It's not part of the rounds, 6 but if you see him in there, if you standing by 7 the elevators or something like that, yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : But you're not - you don't 10 have to check. No. 11 MR. : All right. Did anyone 12 ever provide you with special instructions, 13 with regards to Epstein? 14 MR. : Special instructions? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Like? Something - no. 17 MR. : No? 18 MR. : With special instructions? 19 Like -? 20 MR. : Like, conversations with 21 Epstein, hey, make sure you do this. Just 22 Epstein, make sure this is going - you know? I 23 guess specific instructions. Maybe "special" 24 isn't the right word -- 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062698 51 1 MR. : -- but did anyone ever 2 specifically say, you know, this is Epstein, 3 we've got to make sure we're doing this? 4 MR. Hmm-mm. No. Not that I 5 recall. 6 MR. : No? Did any lieutenants 7 ever talk to you about Epstein's requirement to 8 have a cellmate? 9 MR. Hmm-mm. I mean, it's not 10 Like I said, we've got the email. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : There's no one saying, hey, 13 by the way, from my understanding didn't he 14 have a cellmate up until then? I think he had a 15 cellmate since he got out of the suicide watch. 16 So, I don't think there was a lapse in it. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, what about up until 20 then? You're saying, so -- 21 MR. : Right. Yeah. The cellmate, 22 right? 23 MR. : -- so, what is your 24 understanding of what happened 25 MR. : What happened? EFTA00062699 52 1 MR. : -- on August 9th? 2 MR. : His cellmate went to court, 3 and either went to transferred, or got 4 released, or something. And never came back. 5 And then, you know, that night, he went out, he 6 went without a cellmate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, we'll get into that. 10 I'll ask you a couple more questions, then, 11 just to make sure we stay on kind of page, at 12 the bottom of this page, you see, we're going 13 to start talking about that inmate. And I'll 14 just - what you knew about that. You said the 15 lieutenants are responsible for conducting 16 rounds. Are they responsible for conducting 17 counts in the SHU? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : No? So, like, just 20 around, nothing to do with counts when you were 21 -? 22 MR. : Count is for officers. 23 MR. : Okay. And you don't need 24 to oversee them as the lieutenant, or anything 25 like that? EFTA00062700 53 1 MR. : You could take a count, but 2 usually, you're doing patrol, you're not doing 3 the count with the officers. 4 MR. : Right. So, in physically 5 presence in the SHU, the only time that the 6 lieutenant is involved is actually with rounds, 7 not with counts? 8 MR. : Not with counts. 9 MR. : Okay. And did you 10 conduct any rounds in the SHU, on August 9, 11 2019? 12 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't 13 recall. 14 MR. : You don't remember? 15 Again, you're placing yourself back on one of 16 the biggest incidences, and you know all this 17 circus that's been going on since that time. 18 MR. : Yeah, I know. 19 MR. : So, you can't really put 20 yourself back on that day of, like, hey, what 21 was my involvement with this, and did I -? 22 MR. : No. No. I had no 23 involvement with this. 24 MR. : Well, that's what I mean, 25 but you -- EFTA00062701 54 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : You were the activities' 3 lieutenant, you know, on the, you know, the day 4 before. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And specifically, like 7 you just said, on the day before, when his 8 cellmate was removed. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, you can't remember? 11 MR. : If I did a round, then no. 12 MR. : Okay. So, you can't -. 13 Then, do you remember having any conversations 14 with any of the people listed in there, on your 15 shift, in the SHU? On that date, specifically 16 with regard to Epstein, or , his cellmate. 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : All right. And it'll be, 19 like, a 20 Michael Thomas, Tova Noel, 21 . None of those 22 people? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 25 speak to any of those people about Epstein EFTA00062702 55 1 being required to have a celimate since his 2 celimate was gone? 3 MR. : You're talking about that 4 day? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Or you're just saying -- 7 MR. : On the day that -- 8 MR. -- I can't remember. 9 MR. : -- okay. All right. The 10 people that are in the SHU, are they 11 responsible for conducting counts and round 12 during their shift? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : As far as the shift that 15 you worked, on day watch, what is your 16 understanding of how many rounds and counts 17 they should have done? 18 MR. : There's no counts on day 19 watch. 20 MR. : Okay. What about the 21 rounds? 22 MR. : The rounds, every - you're 23 doing a certain shift, we go about. So, you do 24 one, say, like, 8:00 to 8:30, you do one. 8:30 25 to 9:00, you do one. EFTA00062703 56 1 MR. : So, every 30 minutes? 2 MR. : Every 30 minutes. Not to 3 exceed 40 minutes. They're regular rounds. 4 MR. : Okay. And you're 5 supposed to do one of those rounds with them, 6 but you can't recall whether you did or not? 7 MR. : No. We're not supposed to do 8 rounds with them. No. 9 MR. : You're supposed to just 10 do your own round? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Do our round in SHU. 14 MR. : And can you recall if you 15 did your round in SHU? 16 MR. : No, I can't. 17 MR. : You can't recall? Would 18 it be abnormal if you didn't? 19 MR. : I can't recall. 20 MR. : You can't recall if it 21 would be abnormal if you didn't? 22 MR. : If I didn't do the round? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Would it be abnormal? I mean, 25 I'm not the SHU lieutenant. That's what I'm EFTA00062704 57 1 saying. 2 MR. : But there's no SHU 3 lieutenant, you said, that, you know, you or 4 would be responsible. So, I'm saying, 5 would it be abnormal if you didn't do it? So, 6 would you normally have done it? I know you 7 said you're responsible for it. 8 MR. : No. The lieutenants are 9 responsible, but if a Monday through Friday, if 10 a SHU lieutenant is there, there's no reason 11 for me to go up there. 12 MR. : But there's no SHU 13 lieutenant. 14 MR. : Right. So, but I don't 15 recall if I did a round or not. No. 16 MR. : Okay. But the last 17 question wasn't that. I'm saying, would it 18 have been abnormal if you didn't do one? I know 19 you can't recall it -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- but would you normally 22 have done it, if there's no SHU lieutenant? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah? So, knowing 25 yourself, you probably would -. EFTA00062705 58 1 MR. : If there's no SHU lieutenant, 2 yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : When did you become aware 6 that inmate was removed from the MCC on 7 August 9, 2019? 8 MR. : I don't know. 9 MR. : What is -. 10 MR. : The only thing I heard is, I 11 know, I woke up, they're saying, I saw the 12 story. 13 MR. : What is your involvement, 14 as the activities' lieutenant that day, with 15 inmates who are going to court? 16 MR. : I didn't have no involvement. 17 MR. : So, the activities -- 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:32). 19 MR. : -- lieutenant is not 20 involved? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Is the ops lieutenant 23 involved? 24 MR. : Not really, no. 25 MR. : So, who is involved? Who EFTA00062706 59 1 -? 2 MR. : R&D. Receive and Discharge. 3 MR. : Okay. And do you 4 remember who was working in R&D that day, in 5 that morning? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Are you able to tell by 8 looking at that -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- sheet? How does that 11 work? How do you find out who was in R&D for 12 that day? On that morning. 13 MR. : That's the custody roster. 14 I'm not sure. 15 MR. : So, that's a different 16 roster? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What would that roster be 19 called? 20 MR. : I don't know. 21 MR. : You're not sure? 22 MR. : That's not our department. 23 MR. : Okay. So, did they come 24 and retrieve those individuals from the SHU, or 25 does the SHU staff bring them to R&D? EFTA00062707 60 1 MR. : It depends. If it's busy, 2 you say, hey, I need help, they go up and help 3 you out. If not, the SHU crew, all right, take 4 them down. 5 MR. : So, if it were at a non- 6 busy traditional way, who would have been the 7 people on that roster? 8 MR. : The SHU crew. 9 MR. : And who on that day? 10 MR. : You mean, for the court 11 movements? 12 MR. : Yeah. Like, what time? 13 First of all, I guess I should say. 14 MR. : It depends - that's what I'm 15 saying - so, it depends on if they're going to 16 Brooklyn, or wherever, you start early at 6:00. 17 So, that would be morning watch or day watch. 18 MR. : So, it would be one or 19 the other? And does not - let's say if it was 20 8:00 a.m., who would have it been? 21 MR. : The day watch crew. 22 MR. : And who was on day watch 23 that day? 24 MR. : Hmm. 25 EFTA00062708 61 1 MR. : And anybody - any of 2 those people - do you remember speaking about 3 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. And who was 6 the OIC? Who was the officer-in-charge, out of 7 that crew? 8 MR. : Hmm. 9 MR. was? Not 10 MR. : According to this, it was 11 12 MR. : Okay. So, on the 13 document, it's . All right. I'm going 14 to show you a memo that was written by 15 on August 12, 2019. And it's the subject is, 16 "Pass information from Special Housing Unit." 17 It says, "On Friday, August 9, 2019, at 18 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 19 passed on to oncoming staff, officers and 20 present shift staff, SOS , and Officer 21 , that inmate was going WAB, and 22 possibly may not return. Also, that inmate 23 Epstein will be needing a ceilmate upon arrival 24 from his attorney visit." So, does that 25 refresh your memory? Did you have any EFTA00062709 62 1 conversations with 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Who would have made 4 aware that was going WAB? 5 MR. : He could see it on the 6 roster. They send a sheet up the night before. 7 MR. : So, if that's not on the 8 night before, if on the night before, there's 9 no WAB - and this is at 1:50 p.m. that this 10 notification was made note - if there's no WAB 11 -. Well first of all what's WAB stand for? 12 MR. : With All Belongings. 13 MR. : And if WAB is not next to 14 ' name on the night before, the August 8th 15 roster, how would have he become aware at 16 around 1:50? Would normally the court call 17 R&D, and R&D pass that information along? 18 MR. : R&D could have called him. 19 MR. : So, would R&D call SHU 20 directly, or would they typically call the ops 21 or activities' lieutenant? 22 MR. : They call the SHU. 23 MR. : They do call SHU 24 directly? They wouldn't call you guys, and you 25 would have to the pass information on? EFTA00062710 63 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. So, is it your 3 belief, then, that if it's that, in fact, what 4 happened, if went to court, and then he 5 became WAB? Just tell me, what is your 6 understanding -- 7 MR. : I'm not sure how that one. 8 MR. : -- of how that would 9 work? 10 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 11 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying, 12 specifically, how he got it. What would be the 13 typical way that would work? If an inmate 14 MR. : If an inmate -. 15 MR. : -- goes to court -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- and then is released. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : How does that process 20 work? Once that inmate is released, what 21 happens from that point, for the court, how do 22 they make the notifications known to the MCC, 23 all the way down to where that inmate was 24 housed? Specifically, this one in the SHU. 25 MR. : R&D. Hey, that guy's not EFTA00062711 64 1 coming back. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And then, would they 5 typically say, now WAB, would that be the words 6 that they would use, or would they say, he's 7 not coming back? 8 MR. : Either/or. The WAB is 9 something that's on the roster. 10 MR. : Okay. So, is WAB 11 specific to the roster, or is WAB also if he 12 was called and told? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. I don't know. 14 I've seen it before on the roster. Like, hey, 15 this is the court list. It says WAB. 16 MR. : Right. And I'm saying -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- in this circumstance, 19 if there is no WAB -- 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : -- next to ' name -- 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : -- okay. But you didn't 24 have any conversations with 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062712 65 1 MR. : No? And you seem pretty 2 confident with that. Not like I can't recall. 3 You did not have any conversations with 4 5 MR. : Yeah, I had no conversations 6 with him. 7 MR. : What about with 8 Did you have any conversations with about 9 going WAB or not coming back? 10 MR. Pfft, I can't recall that, 11 either. 12 MR. : Did you know that 13 had left that day for court? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : So then, therefore, did 16 you not know that he was not coming back? 17 MR. : No, I didn't know. No. 18 MR. : Okay. And you don't 19 remember if you actually did a round in the SHU 20 to see that he wasn't there? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So, can you recall any 23 conversations you had that day about 24 MR. : I don't think I had no 25 conversations about EFTA00062713 66 1 2 3 MR. : That's what I'm asking. So, you can't recall any conversations you had that day about 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : And you don't think you 6 had any? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? Okay. All right. 9 We're going to continue with this. 10 MR. : I've got -- 11 MR. : Go ahead. 12 MR. : -- so, just to clarification. 13 The night before, how would MCC get to know 14 that is leaving? 15 MR. : Well, like I said, the court 16 list. 17 MR. : The court list. Who creates 18 it? 19 MR. : But sometimes, that's not 20 always accurate. 21 MR. : Who creates that? 22 MR. : Hmm-mm. I guess R&D. 23 MR. : And it doesn't show who's in 24 R&D over there, right? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062714 67 1 MR. : No. But R&D creates the 2 court list. And what do they do with that 3 court list? 4 MR. : They send it out to all the 5 units. So, you get one. If you're a unit 6 officer, you'll get it and say, okay, I got 7 three guys leaving, because it says WAB. So, 8 you say, hey, wake up, we're packing up, and 9 leaving. 10 MR. : They send the whole list, or 11 they just did the email saying, hey, these are 12 the inmates leaving from here? 13 MR. : Yeah. I've never seen an 14 email. I've just seen the list. 15 MR. : Okay. And it's just, like, a 16 generic email that goes out to everyone? 17 MR. : It's a call list. 18 MR. : But - sorry, I want to 19 make sure that I understood what you just said 20 - is it provided by email, or is it provided by 21 22 MR. : I've never seen it provided 23 by email. 24 MR. so, you've never seen 25 it on email. It's just a list that's provided. EFTA00062715 68 1 So, who - R&D comes and gives it to the SHU? 2 MR. : No. They send it up. 3 MR. : So, Internal comes and 4 gets it? 5 MR. : Internal. Yeah. 6 MR. : So, on this date, would 7 you know who would have been Internal? Who 8 would have provided that list to the SHU? 9 MR. : I see who's Internal, but I'm 10 not - I don't know if they would have provided 11 it. We've got two Internals. 12 MR. : And who are the two 13 Internals? 14 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:48:29) and 16 MR. -: and 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. So, they're 19 the two that typically - you're not saying that 20 they did - but they're typically the people 21 that would have provided the court list? 22 MR. : Yeah. Internal. That's what 23 they usually do. It could have been a 24 sanitation. 25 MR. : Now, isn't the list EFTA00062716 69 1 typically provided the day before, or is it 2 just created the day before? 3 MR. : I don't know. I can't Is 4 it provided the day before? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : It was provided the same day. 7 MR. : It is? 8 MR. : You get about - you get the 9 morning watch the day of. 10 MR. : I was always - I was 11 under the understanding that the night before, 12 on August 8th, they would create the list for 13 the morning, on the August 9th. Do you know -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- was that a correct 16 understanding? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. All I know is, 18 if you're an officer, you get it the day of. 19 MR. : All right. So -. 20 MR. : Because when I was an 21 officer, I used to get it the day of. 22 MR. : All right. And you've 23 worked in the SHU before? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. So, when you EFTA00062717 70 1 worked in the SHU, it would come in that 2 morning? 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 arrive? 6 MR. Yeah. Around what time would it About 2:00 in the morning. I 7 know that's early. 8 MR. : Oh, super early. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, it would come in at 11 morning watch. 12 MR. : Yeah. Morning watch. 13 MR. : Okay. And are there 14 people in Internal working at that time, around 15 2:00 a.m.? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And is that the same 18 people you just listed? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, those morning watch 21 individuals are the ones that would probably 22 have provided the court list? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : And do you know, is that 25 document maintained anywhere? The court list EFTA00062718 71 1 document? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Is that, like, uploaded 4 in any kind of system? 5 MR. : Not that I know of. 6 MR. : No? So, do you know who 7 you said R&D creates it? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : But they don't create it 10 in a system. They just -. 11 MR. : I don't know. I mean, that's 12 not my department. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Is there, like, an 16 officer-in-charge of R&D? 17 MR. : Yeah. So, you have a CMC. 18 MR. : And -- 19 MR. : Corrections. 20 MR. -: -- do you know who, in 21 August, would have been that person? 22 MR. : In August, no. Because I 23 know the CMC was out for a while. And they got 24 a - they also had a supervisor. 25 MR. : And do you know who that EFTA00062719 72 1 would be? 2 MR. : No. But they had a 3 supervisor. I know that's their position, but 4 I don't know who it is. 5 MR. : And that would be, like, 6 a lieutenant? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Who would -? 9 MR. : Lieutenant is custody. R&D 10 is non-custody. 11 MR. : Explain to me what R&D 12 is, and as far as -. 13 MR. : That's Receiving and 14 Discharge. 15 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 16 MR. : So, they deal with the inmate 17 movement, the inmate courts, the transfers, the 18 self-surrenders. 19 MR. : And you're saying that 20 they're not called lieutenants or anything. 21 What are their titles? 22 MR. : Correctional systems officer. 23 MR. : Correctional systems 24 officers. And, like, a supervisor, would they 25 still be, like -? EFTA00062720 73 1 MR. : Supervisor correctional 2 systems officer. 3 MR. : And would that be, like, 4 a nine or an 11 type of -- 5 MR. : Something like that. 6 MR. : -- position? All right. 7 But they're just outside of, you said custody, 8 underneath -. What is the system that they're 9 underneath? 10 MR. : It's the non-custody and 11 custody. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And they have correctional 14 officer, a correctional worker, as opposed to 15 custody is a correctional officer. 16 MR. : Okay. And who would be 17 Does the captain also have oversight over 18 them? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Who has oversight over 21 them? Non-custody. 22 MR. : The CMC. They have a 23 supervisor. 24 MR. : What does the CMC mean? 25 MR. : Correctional Management EFTA00062721 74 1 Coordinator. 2 MR. : Okay. And that is 3 outside of the captain's purview? 4 MR. Yup. 5 MR. : And you don't remember 6 who that was, at that time? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. And you said you 9 did not have any conversations at all. So, you 10 didn't have any conversations with about 11 12 MR. : No. Not that I remember. 13 No. 14 MR. : What about with 15 MR. Hmm. No. 16 MR. : No? But he would have 17 been - he relieved 18 MR. : I can't recall. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : Hmm-mm. 21 MR. : And was , do you 22 remember if you had any kind of interaction 23 with her at all on August 9th? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? So, obviously, you EFTA00062722 75 1 can't remember if you had any conversations 2 about 3 MR. : No. I don't remember 4 discussing 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : So, did you ever receive 8 any call around 1:50, or at any time, saying -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. that was going 11 WAB? No? So, at this point in time, obviously, 12 you're saying you didn't know anything at that 13 point in time. Now, after the fact, what do 14 you know about being removed from the 15 MMC? 16 MR. : I just know he went to court, 17 and never came back. And that was it. 18 MR. : Do you know any 19 information about who was informed that he 20 wasn't coming back? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So, even after the fact, 23 you don't know? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Do you know anything -. EFTA00062723 76 1 I mean, was it at all discussed about, like, 2 hey, somebody dropped the ball there? 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 conversation? 6 MR. No. : No? There wasn't even a I mean, that's the thing. I 7 don't recall him going - I didn't know he was - 8 me personally - didn't know he was going WAB. 9 And I don't think a lot of other people did, 10 either. 11 MR. : Did anyone ever ask you 12 about that -- 13 MR. : About 14 MR. : -- yeah. 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Even after? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, like, on August 10th, 19 August 11th, August 12th, did anyone come up to 20 you and say, hey, did you know wasn't 21 coming back? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : And have you ever been 24 interviewed for this matter before? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00062724 77 1 MR. : No? Did you have 2 conversations with people like , or 3 , or anyone, regarding this matter, 4 after Epstein was found? 5 MR. : What matter? 6 MR. : Epstein being found, and 7 not having a cellmate? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : No? You never talked to 10 anybody in the institution about that? 11 MR. : About him not having a 12 cellmate, or are you talking about him being 13 found? 14 MR. : No. About him not having 15 a cellmate. 16 MR. : I mean, not in a -. I mean, 17 we sent a, hey, what happened, or, like, what 18 happened to his cellmate? Oh, he got released. 19 Okay. It was - he said it like that, but 20 nothing -. No. Not like that. 21 MR. : Was it any conversation 22 of, like, hey, why didn't they put a new 23 cellmate with him? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? So, if, at around EFTA00062725 78 1 1:50 -. 2 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 3 That's the time. That's why I'm looking at 4 you, saying 1:50. Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah. I mean, this is 6 where -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : I'm getting the 1:50, 9 is because 10 MR. : Because these guys -- 11 MR. : -- it says 12 MR. : -- they go to court -. 13 MR. -: knows that, 14 at least by 1:50, he's going WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Should have he 17 communicated with either or about that? 18 MR. : I don't know. I don't know 19 how he communicated with. 20 MR. : No. I'm not asking who 21 he did. I'm asking you, should have he? 22 MR. : I mean, I know when I was 23 OIC, and they give us call it, okay. So, if he 24 didn't say nothing to the lieutenant, I could 25 see why. I mean, you're telling me, I'm the EFTA00062726 79 1 OIC. And okay, I got the notification. 2 MR. • 3 MR. 4 on, it's -. 5 MR. • : So -. : So, if he didn't pass nothing : Is it abnormal that he 6 didn't pass it on, though? Should have he 7 passed it to you? Because -. 8 MR. : It's not. It's not 9 mean 10 MR. : Could have he placed 11 another inmate with someone like Epstein? 12 MR. : I'm not sure because then, 13 again, it says possibly. WABs get cancelled. 14 They get cancelled. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : That's why the 1:50, we don't 17 know until after, like, hey, who is this guy 18 coming back? R&D is open at 8:00, 9:00. 19 MR. : So, about what time would 20 they normally make that notification that, okay 21 -? 22 MR. : After 4:00. 23 MR. : After 4:00? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : And is it some - when you EFTA00062727 80 1 say after 4:00 - is it usually between 4:00 and 2 5:00? 3 MR. : After 4:00. Any time after 4 4:00. 5 MR. : So, anywhere from 4:00 to 6 5:00, 4:00 to 6:00, 4:00 to 8:00. What -? 7 MR. : After the count. 8 MR. : So, after the 4:00 p.m. 9 count. 10 MR. : After the 4:00 p.m. count. 11 MR. : And why is it after the 12 count? 13 MR. : Because that's when the guys 14 come back, after the count. We do the 4:00 15 count. And then, you get an (Indiscernible 16 *00:56:31) base count change is like this. You 17 get 20 guys came back from court, this WAB got 18 cancelled. 19 MR. : So, as far as the 4:00 20 count, or is it at that point, do people start 21 saying, where are these guys, and start making 22 calls, are they coming back or not? 23 MR. : At 4:00? No. 24 MR. : No? So, when is the next 25 time that they would be listed on that count? EFTA00062728 81 1 MR. : The 9:00 count. 2 MR. : The 10:00 count? 3 MR. : Oh, the 10:00 count. Yeah. 4 MR. : Do you want to ask some 5 more questions on that line? I'm just trying to 6 -. Because I thought it was at - I felt people 7 have told at 4:00, that's when they start 8 making calls to say, is this guy coming back or 9 not. That's not your understanding? 10 MR. : Why would you make a call at 11 4:00? 12 MR. : Because you've got to 13 know if they're coming back to the unit or not 14 coming back. 15 MR. : Well, the count, 3:45 is 16 over. So, you're in the unit or not. So, at 17 4:00, we do the count. After the count, that's 18 when the guys come in from court. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : That's when we get the guys 21 coming back to SHU and going back to their 22 units. 23 MR. : And would you be - would 24 anybody be notified, prior to 4:00, that people 25 were, or were not, coming back? EFTA00062729 82 1 MR. : Not to my understanding. No. 2 MR. : All right. So, to your 3 understanding, it's not until 4:00 or later, 4 that this, you know, people would know 5 was not coming back? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : All right. So, if 8 doesn't come back after 4:00 p.m., who, on that 9 daily assignment roster, would be responsible 10 for making notifications, or determining that 11 Epstein needed a cellmate? 12 MR. : I mean, the notification is 13 here. We already have the notification. 14 MR. : Yeah. I know you're 15 pointing to the email that says that he 16 requires to have a cellmate. What I'm asking 17 is, okay, now 4:00 on, at some point after 18 4:00, you're saying - it's known that 19 is now not coming back. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Not - possibly not coming 22 back, but he's not coming back. Who would be 23 responsible for placing - for making 24 notifications that, hey, is out, Epstein 25 does not have a cellmate, we need to start EFTA00062730 83 1 making some notifications? 2 MR. : I mean, I don't know. 3 There's no notifications. That's if he doesn't 4 have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate. 5 MR. : Yeah. So, what I'm 6 saying is -. 7 MR. : But the lieutenant is not 8 saying, hey, by the way, you know? If they 9 catch it, they'll say it, but if they don't 10 MR. : And I'm not saying it's - 11 - 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. • • -- a lieutenant's 14 responsibility. What I'm asking is, whose 15 responsibility is it? 16 MR. : To say, hey, this guy, get 17 him a cellmate, or make a notification? 18 MR. : Yes. Like, who would be 19 the first one to know that is no longer 20 there? Would it be the SHU? 21 MR. : I'd say R&D. 22 MR. : So, R&D would be there. 23 What is R&D's responsibility, at that point? 24 MR. : Oh, hey, we've got all the 25 inmates back. It's such and such. And that's EFTA00062731 84 1 2 3 4 5 it. You ain't get him? Then they're not coming back. They're gone. MR. : But would R&D be responsible for saying, hey, SHU, isn't coming back, or would they say, hey, ops 6 lieutenant, isn't coming back. Who would 7 R&D notify? 8 MR. : I'm not sure. In the past, I 9 would say they calling SHU directly. 10 MR. : SHU directly? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So, in the 13 SHU, after 4:00, who was working? 14 MR. • , Noel, and 15 MR. , Noel, and 16 Are they the only three there? 17 MR. : That's the only three listed. 18 MR. : Okay. So, one of those 19 three were likely notified? 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : Okay. And if they 22 weren't notified, at what point would they know 23 isn't coming back? 24 MR. : I'll say about 8:00. 25 MR. : And how would they be EFTA00062732 85 1 notified? 2 MR. : Because usually, all the 3 inmates are by then, you know, talking to the 4 lieutenant, hey, is anyone else down there? 5 That's like a follow up call. 6 MR. : Is there some point when 7 they should be saying, hey, this guy left at 8 8:00 this morning, he's still not back? 9 MR. : No. You said, is it at some 10 point? Yeah. 11 MR. : So, and at what point is 12 that? Is it during a count? Or is it just - is 13 there, like, you know, duties that they're 14 doing prior to the count, where they've got to 15 make sure people are there? How does that work? 16 MR. : I mean -. 17 MR. : You've worked in the SHU, 18 so from your recollection, from when you worked 19 in the SHU, how would that work? Especially 20 being that MCC is a jail, not a prison, where 21 people could, at any time, be released or 22 moved. How does that work in the SHU? 23 MR. : I used to have, like, that, I 24 think, set by 8:00. 25 MR. : I'm sorry. What did you EFTA00062733 86 1 say about 8:00? 2 MR. : By 8:00, is when I say, hey, 3 is anyone else coming up? And this is the base 4 count. Like, I want to get everything straight 5 in the computer. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I'll say by 8:00. 8 MR. : And on that date, when 9 those three people were working, who would 10 typically be responsible for doing something 11 like that? Is it, like, SHU one, SHU two, two 12 three, or is it just anybody, any one of them, 13 or how does that work? 14 MR. : To do what? 15 MR. : To say, like, hey, we've 16 got to make sure our base count is correct. 17 MR. : I mean, it could be any one 18 of them. 19 MR. : Any one of them? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : But it's not like 22 someone's job? It's just someone should take 23 that role. 24 MR. : I mean, but they've got to 25 have the base count right, for the 10:00 count. EFTA00062734 87 1 MR. : So, one of those people 2 should have got the base count right, but it's 3 not one specific person's duty? Or is it 4 something that they're supposed to collaborate 5 on all together? 6 MR. : I mean, it depends. It 7 depends. If you're working, hey, such and such 8 (Indiscernible *01:02:01). If you're number 9 two, you know, you go to the board, you could 10 change it yourself. You know, the OIC. All 11 right, you know, making sure everything is in 12 order. 13 MR. : Was there an OIC on that 14 night? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Who? 17 MR. 18 MR. : So, was the OIC? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : So, technically, he's 21 probably the one who should have been 22 responsible to catch the fact that their base 23 count changed, and he wasn't coming back? 24 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 25 Because he was non-custody. I'm not sure. EFTA00062735 88 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Because, you see, he's non- 3 custody. Mine was non-custody. He's just up 4 there for overtime. So, I'm not sure. 5 MR. : Okay. Now, as far the 6 lieutenants' job. So, at that point in time, 7 it was that was the ops, and hat 8 was the activities. What is their role in 9 ensuring that is, one, back; and two, 10 Epstein is placed with a new cellmate? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Do they have any role? Or 13 is it all on the SHU? 14 MR. : I mean, it's - they don't 15 have a role. You know, it's -. 16 MR. : What about when they're 17 conducting their rounds, as part of their 18 responsibility to say, to check that kind of 19 stuff, or is it just to see what inmates are 20 there, and that the inmates that are there, are 21 okay? 22 MR. : Pretty much. You've got to 23 do a round. 24 MR. : Does that round entail 25 verifying that Epstein has a cellmate and EFTA00062736 89 1 isn't there? 2 MR. : I'm not sure of that. We 3 just know we do our rounds. 4 MR. : So, that goes back to, 5 what does a round entail? Does that mean that 6 you need to verify that the people that are on 7 the books are there, and other people are 8 removed? 9 MR. : Yes, with staff and 10 accountability. For the most part. You know? 11 Inmates banging, hey, all right, I'll be up, 12 doing my round. I'll deal with this when I get 13 up there. 14 MR. : But when you say for 15 accountability, what does that entail? 16 MR. : Presence of inmates, 17 depending on who goes up there. They know, 18 okay, this is on - they try certain things, 19 they won't try certain things. 20 MR. : Are you comparing a list 21 of the inmates that you know to be in the SHU, 22 with who's actually in the SHU? 23 MR. : No. Not for a round. No. 24 MR. : No? All right. So, as 25 far as a round conducted by a lieutenant, would EFTA00062737 90 1 they know - would they be able to figure out 2 that 3 MR. 4 round was. 5 MR. 6 explanation? 7 MR. was removed? : Depending on what time the : And can you give me more What time would that change? : If I do an early round, and 8 Epstein's in a cell by his self, okay, I still 9 have time, still doing court movements, and it 10 wouldn't raise no suspicion or no alarm. 11 MR. : Okay. So, about what 12 time would there be a suspicion or alarm that 13 be raised? 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 MR. 17 MR. 18 back? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. I told you. At about 8:00. : 8:00? Yeah. : Because hasn't been : Okay. Were you ever 21 provided any instructions on what actions 22 should be taken if was removed as 23 Epstein's cellmate? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : What actions should have EFTA00062738 91 1 been taken once was removed? 2 MR. Hmm. Honestly, I mean, like 3 I said, we bunk all the inmates together. So, 4 if he was removed, look for him a new bunkie. 5 MR. : And is that something - 6 should have they notified - when they say look 7 for a new bunkie, I'm assuming you're talking 8 about the people in the SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah. A new cellmate. Yeah. 10 MR. : So, I think you said 11 , and Noel? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Could have they placed 14 him with a new cellmate, or would have they had 15 you make notification to the ops and/or 16 activities' lieutenant? 17 MR. : You know, they don't need to 18 make notification. 19 MR. : What about when someone 20 is high-profile as an inmate as Epstein? 21 MR. : No, he didn't make 22 notification. 23 MR. : So, you don't think that 24 they would have. Do you know if Epstein's 25 cellmates were vetted by the captain and above? EFTA00062739 92 1 MR. : I think I heard something 2 like that. I think so. 3 MR. : Now, does that play into 4 that answer? About if they could have just 5 placed anyone with him? 6 MR. : I'm not sure. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : But I think someone vetted 9 like that, pre-approved or something like that. 10 I think - I'm not sure - but I think I did hear 11 something like that. 12 MR. : Okay. But to your 13 knowledge, they could have placed anyone with 14 him? Not anyone, but, like, they could have 15 placed a new inmate with him. 16 MR. : Yeah, they could have. 17 MR. : Okay. Should have they? 18 MR. : I'm not sure. Like you said, 19 the whole vetted thing, yeah. I'm not sure. 20 MR. : So, if they knew that 21 was vetted, and was placed with him, at 22 that point, should have they done anything 23 else? Such as called the lieutenant to say, 24 hey, he's not back, we need to get him a new 25 cellmate. Can I place someone with him, or EFTA00062740 93 1 should have they just taken action on their 2 own? 3 MR. : I don't know. 4 MR. : If you were - I know you 5 were day watch - but if you were evening watch, 6 would of you expected them to notify you? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So, in this case, should 9 have they notified , or should have they 10 notified , or either of them? 11 MR. : I'm not sure. 12 MR. : Should have -. 13 MR. : That was non-custody. 14 MR. : Should have the person 15 notified them by telephone, or when one of 16 those lieutenants did their rounds? 17 MR. : You said should they have? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : If they would have? Yeah, 20 either/or. Both. Call, email, whatever. 21 MR. : Now, someone like -. So, 22 was the activities' lieutenant that 23 night, correct? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Since she was not a EFTA00062741 94 1 lieutenant, she was an SOS, do you feel that 2 she had the knowledge and capabilities to be 3 able to do that job, at that time? 4 MR. : What job are you talking 5 about? 6 MR. : Activities' lieutenant. 7 MR. : Yeah. I think she was 8 training, right? 9 MR. : Well, I -. 10 MR. : I think she was training. 11 It's that temporary post, right? 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : Yeah, but that still wouldn't 14 be on her, though. 15 MR. : If she's the one who did 16 a round in the SHU for her shift. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that something that 19 she should have checked on? Hey, where's 20 There's nobody in -. Because not only - I 21 mean, everyone knows what cellmate Epstein is 22 in. So, even if Epstein's not in there, and 23 he's still down at attorney conference, nobody 24 is in there. So, shouldn't that have been 25 something that you'd say, hey, where is this EFTA00062742 95 1 guy? Is he coming back? Should that be 2 something that was -? 3 MR. : That kind of depends on the 4 time. 5 MR. : And when you're saying 6 that you just mean because he possibly could be 7 coming back? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : But if no one is there, 10 and she knows he's out at court, shouldn't she 11 at least have followed up on, hey, anybody 12 check on him? Is he coming back? 13 MR. : Well, that's R&D. R&D 14 notifies us if they're coming back or not. 15 MR. : All right. So, when 16 doing rounds, that's not something being that, 17 hey, we've got to make sure that Epstein has a 18 cellmate. Not something that should be, like, 19 a, hey, nobody's in Epstein's cell. What's 20 going on there? 21 MR. : I mean, that's what I'm 22 saying. We get this notice, not just with 23 Epstein, with every inmate 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- that comes on suicide EFTA00062743 96 1 watch. 2 MR. : So, did you ever see - 3 when you were visiting the cell - did you ever 4 see this sign up in the SHU? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : And I'm showing you a 7 colored note, saying, "Mandatory rounds must be 8 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, number 9 76318-054, as per GOD." 10 MR. : Nah. 11 MR. : You never noticed that? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : All right. So, that's 14 nothing you ever saw in any of your times 15 visiting there? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : All right. If that was 18 up - sorry. 19 MR. : Sorry. 20 MR. : Please. 21 MR. : No, no. If you have. 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : I have a -- 24 MR. : No, no, no. 25 MR. : I have a funny joke, EFTA00062744 97 1 that's why. 2 MR. : I was just going to say, 3 if that is up for people to see, doing rounds 4 in the SHU, does that change any of those 5 answers of, hey, where is Epstein's cellmate? 6 MR. : I mean, this is - if it's 7 rounds - that's something different than me 8 saying single bunk. So, if they're saying 9 we're doing rounds on them, that wouldn't make 10 them to think about, why is this guy - where is 11 his bunkie? 12 MR. : You don't think so? So, 13 if you're actually looking into his cell and 14 saying, you know he needs a bunkie, I'm looking 15 in his cell, and there is no one else with him, 16 you don't think that those are correlated? 17 MR. : Yeah, but not because of 18 this. No. That's just saying rounds, hey, 19 make sure you do your rounds. 20 MR. : It says specifically 21 MR. : Than when it's not -- 22 MR. : -- rounds on -? 23 MR. : -- yea, but normal, it's not 24 going to think just because - it's not going to 25 mix this with this. EFTA00062745 98 1 MR. : So, even though they're 2 looking in on Epstein, seeing that he's not - 3 he's by himself, that won't alert them to the 4 fact -? 5 MR. : No. Not that sign. No. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : You don't think so? 9 MR. : It says, "Mandatory rounds." 10 MR. : Do you know of any other 11 signs that were in the SHU, saying that he was 12 required to have a cellmate? 13 MR. Hmm. I can't recall. 14 MR. : What about the hot list? 15 Tell me about, what is a hot list? 16 MR. : The hot list is inmates who 17 have suicidal behavior or attempts in the past. 18 MR. : And people on the hot 19 list, are they required to have a cellmate? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Do you remember seeing 22 the hot list that was in the SHU? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Is that as part, as a 25 lieutenant, would they check out the hot list EFTA00062746 99 1 2 3 4 when they would go down there? MR. : No. We would just - no - we would just check to see if it's updated. MR. : Okay. So, Epstein's 5 listed on the hot list. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : What does that, then, 8 tell these people working in the SHU? 9 MR. : He needs a cellmate. 10 MR. : And do all of them know, 11 12 if Epstein's on the hot list, those people need cellmates? 13 14 MR. knew. : I'm not sure if all of them 15 MR. : But are they supposed to? 16 MR. : I don't know. Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. So, you feel 18 like the hot list is even more important than 19 20 the sign I just showed you, for cellmate purposes? 21 22 MR. come from? : This sign? Where the sign 23 MR. : If this sign was in the 24 SHU -- 25 MR. : You said "if"? EFTA00062747 100 1 MR. : -- well, I'm not saying - 2 I can't say if - yeah - I can't tell you -- 3 MR. : Oh. 4 MR. -- exactly what is and 5 what isn't. I'm just saying, assuming that 6 this was in the SHU. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : What was your question? 9 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 10 This, I don't think this was up there. 11 MR. : You don't think that was 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Because -. 15 MR. : I mean, not in no tier or 16 nothing like that. 17 MR. : Okay. But around, like, 18 the officers -? 19 MR. : The hot list is up there, 20 though. 21 MR. : But what about, like, up 22 on, like, the desk area? Would you be around 23 the officer's desk area? 24 MR. Hmm. I mean, if I had to. 25 MR. : But you didn't notice EFTA00062748 101 1 that -- 2 MR. : But not normally. 3 MR. : -- in the desk area? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. Where would 6 the hot list be located? 7 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 8 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 9 MR. : All right. And they're 10 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 11 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 12 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 13 MR. : The hot list is just any - 14 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 15 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 16 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 17 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 18 That's what the hot list is for. 19 MR. : And are they supposed to 20 check that list every day, to make those same - 21 ? 22 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 23 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch, 24 is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to 25 check it every day. No. EFTA00062749 102 1 MR. : All right. So, it's not 2 common to check it every day? 3 MR. : Every day, no. Unless it's 4 updated. 5 MR. : Only when it's updated, 6 you check it. 7 MR. : Yeah, if the guy is still on 8 it. 9 MR. : But wouldn't - again, the 10 fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison - 11 wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are 12 being moved in and out? 13 MR. : Not on the hot list. 14 MR. : No, but the people that 15 they're bunked with. If they're required to 16 have a cellmate -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- wouldn't it be pretty 19 regular that they would have to - their 20 cellmates might be leaving? Because if it's a 21 jail, not a prison. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So, that's what I'm 24 saying. So, how are they always ensuring that 25 those people that are required to have EFTA00062750 103 1 cellmates have cellmates? 2 MR. : That's when you say, hey, I 3 got a single cell up there. 4 MR. : And at what point is that 5 reviewed? 6 MR. : The single cells? 7 MR. : Yeah. Is that supposed 8 to be a daily occurrence? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And is that - what time 11 is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking 12 about? 13 MR. : No. Usually, that's in the 14 morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you 15 know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell? 16 You know? 17 MR. : Well, what about -. 18 MR. : At night, it's just not -. 19 At night, it's -. 20 MR. : Even when people are left 21 during the day, and then come back from court? 22 Some people come back, some people don't. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Wouldn't that be another 25 time that they do it, or they don't do it at EFTA00062751 104 1 that time? 2 MR. : I mean, I mean, like I said, 3 after that cut off time, that's when you start 4 saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such 5 and such. Then again, remember, MCC get 6 inmates throughout the night. 7 MR. : They do? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Placed in the SHU? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 12 work that night. Do you know of any people 13 that were placed in the SHU that night, on 14 August 9th? 15 MR. : No. Not according to this, 16 no. 17 MR. : And did you conduct any 18 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th? 19 MR. : I can't recall. 20 MR. : And what is the purpose? 21 Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the 22 SHU? 23 MR. : To make sure they're alive. 24 MR. : Is it also to make sure 25 everyone is there? EFTA00062752 105 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : And are cells and counts 3 - are counts and rounds documented? 4 MR. : Yup. 5 MR. : And how 6 MR. : Probably. 7 MR. : -- how are they 8 documented? 9 MR. : 30-minute log in in TruScope. 10 MR. : So, 30-minute log for 11 rounds? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And what is the TruScope? 14 MR. : Rounds. 15 MR. : That's rounds, as well? 16 MR. : You put rounds in there, too, 17 but all the counts. 18 MR. : So, counts 19 MR. : Mainly counts, yeah. 20 MR. so, are counts also 21 are there, like, little slips that are filled 22 out? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Who fills them out? 25 MR. : All the officers. EFTA00062753 106 1 MR. : And what do they do with 2 them? 3 MR. : Give it to Internal. 4 MR. : And does Internal come to 5 the SHU, or does the SHU go to Internal? 6 MR. : It depends. 7 Not before this incident. 8 MR. -: MR. : Or it does 9 it both ways? 10 MR. : Both ways. Just get it to 11 control. 12 MR. : Okay. Do all COs who 13 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 14 and report counts and rounds? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Should they know how to 17 conduct counts and rounds? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And how should they know? 20 MR. : Training. 21 MR. : And do you think everyone 22 there got enough training to know how to do a 23 count and a round? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Did you ever hear of EFTA00062754 107 1 people, like, filling out count slips, or round 2 sheets? Either before, or at the very start of 3 their shift, for their entire shift, or at the 4 end of the shift for their entire shift? 5 MR. : Not before this incident. 6 MR. : Did you hear about that 7 after this incident? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : What did you hear about 10 that? 11 MR. : That they didn't count. I 12 mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't 13 counted. Wasn't making rounds. 14 MR. : And who was it that you 15 heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? 16 MR. : Thomas and Noel. 17 MR. : Anybody else in there? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Did you hear anything 20 about counts and rounds not being conducted 21 prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time 22 on August 9th, did you hear about any of those 23 counts and rounds not being conducted? 24 MR. : On the morning watch then? 25 MR. : Any time on August 9th. EFTA00062755 108 1 So, this date. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Even after the fact, you 4 never heard about, like, the 10:00 p.m. count, 5 or the 4:00 p.m. count, the counts not being 6 conducted? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : You haven't heard that? 9 MR. : No. I don't know. Not that 10 I know of. Some, what, counts on these days? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : No. You have the 4:00 count. 13 You have the 10:00 count. Yeah, the midnight 14 count. Yeah. 15 MR. : Right. So, what I'm 16 asking, did you 17 MR. : Have I heard that -- 18 MR. : -- did you hear -- 19 MR. : -- 4:00 and 10:00 -- 20 MR. : -- that (Indiscernible 21 *01:18:33) -- 22 MR. : -- wasn't done? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Now, do lieutenants sign EFTA00062756 109 1 the counts or the rounds? 2 MR. : The rounds. Not the counts. 3 MR. : So, what is the 4 lieutenants' responsibility for signing the 5 round sheets? 6 MR. : Making sure they're in 7 compliance with the policy. 8 MR. : All right. And do they 9 have to - is there any way for them to verify 10 if the rounds were actually done? 11 MR. : Hmm. No. Unless you're 12 doing a - checking a video. 13 MR. : You just - is what you do 14 is just to make sure that the - it's actually 15 filled out? 16 MR. : Correctly. 17 MR. : Correctly filled out? All 18 right. I'm going to - I apologize for this, 19 it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to 20 show you. What is this that I'm showing you? 21 MR. : It's a round sheet. 22 MR. : All right. And what is 23 the round sheet from? 24 MR. : The 9th. 25 MR. : The 9th. Did you have EFTA00062757 110 1 anything - well, as the activities' lieutenant 2 - would of you had anything to do with signing 3 off on any of these? 4 MR. 5 MR. 6 signed off on? 7 MR. : Yeah. : Which ones would of you : Day watch. 8 MR. : Okay. And are you on 9 that? Did you sign any of that? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Where is your signature? 12 MR. : On the day shift. 13 MR. : So, that's your actual 14 signature? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Who else signed that? 19 MR. : The officer. 20 MR. : Which officer? 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You can't tell by looking 23 at that? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. And around EFTA00062758 111 1 what time would of you signed that? Do you 2 know? 3 MR. : Some time on my shift. 4 MR. : All right. So, does that 5 indicate that you would have, then, conducted a 6 round in the SHU? 7 MR. : I'm not sure. 8 MR. : Would of you signed that 9 in the SHU? 10 MR. : Honestly, I'm not sure. 11 MR. : How else would of you 12 gotten it? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. 14 MR. : So, is the SHU sheet ever 15 sent outside of the SHU for the lieutenant to 16 sign? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't recall 18 on this day. 19 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 20 like, have you ever signed one of these round 21 sheets outside of the SHU? 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : Or is it typically that 24 the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU? 25 Because aren't they maintained in the SHU? EFTA00062759 112 1 MR. : Typically, that's what would 2 happen. 3 MR. : So, typically, you would 4 have signed this in the SHU. Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And would of you signed 7 this after the last one was filled out? I'm 8 assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you 9 signed it, would they? 10 11 12 2:07. Wouldn't that typically mean that you 13 would have been there at least 2:00? 14 MR. : I'm not sure. 15 MR. : But by looking at this 16 document, does that indicate to you, that if 17 you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you 18 ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled 19 out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant 20 signs it? 21 MR. : Yeah. MR. : I'm not sure. MR. : So, this one says 2:05, 22 MR. : So, even for day watch 23 right here? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, you can sign it at EFTA00062760 113 1 any point during this, and then, they continue 2 to fill it out? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. And that's 5 what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't 6 know. So, I'm asking. 7 MR. : I mean, it's eight hours. 8 MR. : So, at any point, from 9 8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 p.m., you could 10 have signed that? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. And these are 13 genuine questions. They're not I trick you. 14 I'm just asking -- 15 MR. : No. I understand. But it 16 does seem like that, is what I'm saying. 17 MR. : And then, I'm not -- 18 MR. : That's what I'm saying, like 19 -. 20 MR. : I promise you, I'm 21 just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I 22 gotcha" moment. There's no 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : I gotcha moments in 25 this. This is just asking for your, like, your EFTA00062761 114 1 recollection on this. 2 MR. Yeah, I understand that. But 3 that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I 4 don't know when I signed it. 5 MR. : All right. And that's 6 so, what I'm asking you, like, is this 7 something, typically, that you would have done? 8 And again, it's not an I gotcha. 9 MR. : Yeah. But again -- 10 MR. : It's just, it's a genuine 11 -- 12 MR. -- I'm not sure. 13 MR. : -- but so, you don't know 14 if - But so, most of the time, I mean, these 15 are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again 16 - this is our learning experience, by talking 17 to people like you, lieutenants -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that were there. 20 It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to 21 figure out, how does this process work? 22 MR. : But also, I'm not trying to 23 incriminate myself. 24 MR. : I got -. 25 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm EFTA00062762 115 1 saying. I'm not sure. 2 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 3 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 4 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 5 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 6 process work? If you give this person a round 7 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 8 SHU? 9 MR. : Typically. 10 MR. : Typically. All right. 11 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that I 14 know of, no. 15 MR. : All right. So, at least 16 more likely than not, you signed this document 17 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 18 2:00 p.m.? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, that means you 21 probably did a round in there? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And if it was 24 between 8:00 and 2:00 p.m., both and 25 Epstein were not in their cell at that time, EFTA00062763 116 1 then, correct? 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, this isn't, like 4 - again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to 5 figure out, like, where you fall in this whole 6 thing. 7 MR. : So, that's what I'm trying to 8 figure out. Where do I fall in this whole 9 thing? 10 MR. : Because this is your 11 idea. That's what we're We're talking to 12 you just specifically about, all right, 13 was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We 14 don't know -. 15 MR. : So, you're trying to say 16 who's to blame for it, or -? 17 MR. : Well, it's also just trying 18 to figure out what happened. We've got to talk 19 to 20 MR. : He left. And that's what 21 happened. 22 MR. : Right. And you, when you 23 were there, there was no conversations that you 24 had with anyone? 25 MR. : No conspiracy. No. It's not EFTA00062764 117 1 -- 2 MR. : No, no, no, and we're not 3 asking -- 4 MR. -- nothing like that. 5 MR. : -- for a conspiracy. 6 It's just, we need to know who, what 7 conversations happened, where, where did the 8 MR. : I didn't know nothing about 9 it until after I saw it in the news. 10 MR. : And this is also me 11 showing you this now is more letting you know, 12 like, okay, that looks like you probably were 13 there. Does that help spark recollection? 14 MR. : I had no conversation with 15 neither one of them that day. Not that I 16 recall. 17 MR. : None of them that day? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : All right. Can you tell, 2