APPEARANCES:

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: NONE 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Today is September 23, 2021. The time 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 4 start, a.ain I am DO] OIG Special Agent, S Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 5 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 6 MR. Senior Special Agent 7 York Field Office, and these are my 7 . . 8 credentials. 8 : I'm correctional lieutenant, 9 : I see. 9 . . 10 MR. : This interview with the 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 right? 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 : Yes. 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 16 : Yes. 17 of the Inspector General, DO] investigation. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 18 MR. Thank you. 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 20 III-226/2. The form states, United States 21 York City. Also present is DO] Senior Special 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 Agent. 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 MR. . And 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 25 these areliiiiiedentials. Thank you. MR. : This interview will be 24 25 Basis. "You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being EFTA00064266 6 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure, and security failure. 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 19 you understand -- 20 : Okay. 21 MR. -- can you please sign where 22 it says em to ee name, signature? 23 MR. : Need a pen? 24 : Thank you. 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible *00:03:03 Thank you. MR. : understand , do you form? : Yes. Yes, sir. MR. : And you are signing the form also. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. anyways. MR. : This is Agent . I'm signing on the signature of the Office of Inspector General. MR. : Thank you. And I am going to sign as the witness and put my name. 8 MR. : Thank you. And what is your current cell hone number? MR. : What is your highest level of education? Mm-hmm. Thank you. That's it. Do my name? I'll fill out the -- Okay. -- that part. No problem. Okay. : Thank you. Thank you. : I can fill it out 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 Thanks. MR. : Before starting the interview I would like to place you under oath. , can you please raise your right hand? : Sure. MR. : Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? Yes. Yes, sir. Milli Thank you. Please let me know if you do not understand any questions, and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. : Okay. MR. : What is your current home address? MR. : Thank you. What is your date of birth? MR. : What Is your social security number? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR MR in New York? College. Bachelors. Which colle e? The And what was your -? That's : It's upstate New York. Yes. MR. : And what was your major in? : I was in psychology, though I believe is liberal arts. MR. : What did you do prior to workirifS BOP? : I worked for the New York City Police Department as a school safety agent. MR. : And when did you start working for the BOP? : When did I start? : Start. : May 18, 2003. MR. EFTA00064267 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. college? 9 When did you graduate May of 2012. MR. : Okay. MR. : Thank you. Do you have any military service? : No, sir. MR. : And you said in 2003, you started with the BOP? : Yes. MR. : And when did you -? What was the -? When did you first start? : MDC Brooklyn. MR. : MDC Brooklyn? : Yes. MR. : And you started as a C.O.? : Yes. MR. : Okay. When did you graduate from BOP trai S i i? MR. : You don't remember the answer? MR. ..eah. MR. : It was probably shortly afteriiiiiiiiiied, correct? : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 2016. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 MR. ..kay. MR. : Okay. And when did you come to MCC? 2011. MR. since? : I came to MCC January 31st, Yes. MR. Okay. And have you been in the SIS Shoa since then? No. MR. Okay. I went into the SIS Shop in And have you been here MR. 2016? Yes. MR. And then, in 2019, were you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? Yes. MR. . Great. MR. Okay. That's the basic background we cover to -- MR. • Yeah, no -- MR. -- on that. MR. . -- you can go into the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 questions. MR. : So, what we're going to talk to you today about is Mr. -. Are you aware of 91 who Jeffre E stein is? Yes. : And was he an inmate at the MCC? MR. while he was : Yes. : Were you familiar with him housed here at the MCC? : Yeah. I would say yes. MR. : Okay. Let's start off. Well, were you familiar with his first suicide attemiiiIIIIIII : Yes. I did the first investigation on that one. Yes. MR. : Did that approximately, did that happen approximately around July 23rd, 2019? Yes. MR. : Can you tell us what happened? Based on your investigation and what you found. : Based on my investigation, once I found out about the suicide attempt when 12 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of 3 their sides of the story. 4 MR. . Was that 5 : Yes. Mr. 6 MR. Okay. 7 : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D 8 area. He was a little hesitant, at first, 9 about speaking to me. He kept asking me who 10 was I? You know, what was I interviewing him 11 for? And I explained to him my position as the 12 SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are 13 met, and, you know, I questioned him about 14 whose the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, 15 I don't remember what happened. I remember him 16 telling me he went to get a drink of water, and 17 all he remembered is he was on the floor. And 18 the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide 19 much of anything else. 20 I did question him about Mr. 21 You know, did you guys have any words with each 22 other? You know, we were just cellmates at the 23 time. You know, when you went to get the drink 24 of water, and he would -. Either he say he was 25 laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00064268 13 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. I 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 8 floor. 9 MR. : Did you ask him if 10 attempted to harm him? 11 : Yes. 12 MR. : And what did he say to 13 that? 14 : And he said no. 15 MR. : And he said 16 did not -- 17 Yes. 18 MR. • -- try to harm him? 19 He said he did not. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. Was there a noose found 22 around his neck, at that point? Do you know? 23 : I think it was. I think it 24 was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to 25 say, or something to that effect. They had 14 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 with you. 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 suicide? 8 : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 is who alerted the officers, by 10 banging on the door. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 How diiiiiiiiiind him, do you recall? 14 : I can't recall. I know that 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 did not try to kill him. 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 noose himself or how the noose came about? 24 : No. He didn't. 25 MR. : And what was your impression 15 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 2 tried to take his own life? 3 : I kind of had mixed feelings 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 13 getting back from him. 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 15 didn't try to kill him? 16 : Yes. 17 MR. : So, the only other option 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 19 commit suicide himself? 20 : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. Or do you believe that 23 inmate attempted to harm him? 24 I don't. 25 MR. Yeah. 16 1 : I don't. 2 MR. So, was it inconclusive? 3 : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 MR. What is your feeling of 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 investi ator. 7 : I don't know if it was, you 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 is telling me the truth. You know, 15 I really can't say what happened because you 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. And was he placed on EFTA00064269 17 18 1 suicide watch as a result? 2 Yes. : 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 6 : If that was the thought made 7 by the ps chola department -- 8 MR. Okay. 9 -- they would definitely 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 12 suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 14 made that determination that he would be placed 15 on suicide watch? 16 : I don't know. 17 MR. Okay. 18 I don't know. 19 MR. But it wasn't based upon 20 your investi ation? 21 : No. 22 MR. . Was it actually your 23 investigation concluded, which actually brought 24 him off of suicide watch? 25 : No. 1 MR. : No? 2 : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 general population, then they will release them 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 • I don't think it did. 12 MR. Okay. 13 : I don't think it did. 14 MR. • Inmate Had he 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 for quite some time. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 : Not violence. He was more of 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 MR. : Is -- 24 : You know -- 25 MR. -- is that why -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 -- something to that effect. MR. . -- he was in the SHU? : I think that's why he was in SHU at that time. MR. : Do you recall how got chosen to be E stein's inmate? MR. • Cellmate. MR. : Cellmate. Sorry. : Oh. MR. : Sorry. : Actually, I don't. I don't know how they put the two of them together. Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you know, who do you think would be more suitable, but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, I don't know how they became cellmates. MR. : You don't know if any decisions were made by the higher ups, in regards to him? : I don't know. MR. : Okay. And after this incident happened, was removed from the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from the cell? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 : I'm not sure which one were removed, or if they both was placed in different cells, with different cellmates. I'm not sure. MR. MR. actuall : Well -. Well, inmate Epstein was laced on suicide watch. : Right. But I'm not sure if Mr. remained in that same cell. MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU after that meeting with him? : Yes. MR. : Were there any issues with him after that incident? : With? : With : Not that I'm aware of. MR. : Okay. And we asked about the suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate was - an incident like this happened, let's skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- Okay. MR. : -- if an inmate was found with a noose, and there was a possibility of a suicide, what's the normal procedure that MR. EFTA00064270 21 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 3 : If it was an incident where 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 14 suicide watch last? 15 : It can vary. 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 18 : Maybe a couple of days, but I 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 20 three. Biiiiiibe a couple of days. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 25 : Right. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 MR. : Do you think that was too early to remove him from suicide watch? I know this is -. What is the difference between psychliiiiiiiiiicide watch? : It's the same area. Psych ops is, they just get their clothing back. But they are still being watched. MR. It's the same thing, right? MR. : It's the same thing. : Yeah. : They're still being watched by an inmate companion. MR. : Is there any other benefit to being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide watch versus psych observation - any benefits to being iiiiiiiiiips? MR. : Yeah. You have your clothes. : You get your clothes. : Your clothes. : I mean -. : Was it - if it was any other inmate - would they have given back his clothes that fast? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ' I don't know. That would be the psychiiiiiidepartment determination. MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, that he was removed from psych observation, and he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall hearing why he was removed from psych observation : No. MR. -- and placed back in the SHU? MR. MR. file back to you - when asked - you said you weren't, you knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of a guy, but do you know of any instances where he actuall did harm another inmate? No. MR. No? No. Great. Thank you. : All right. Anything else on MR. MR. the -? : No. Do you have any questions? Yeah. Just to go back, So, I knew 24 MR. MR. MR. MR. 1 Nope. 2 Okay. 3 • You can go ahead. 4 : Now, let's go to August 9th. 5 Were ou working on August 9th, 2019? 6 : I think I was off August 9th. 7 : Okay. Let me just -. Would 8 Would your name be on the -? 9 : On the roster? 10 MR. : On the roster. 11 : Yeah. I would be on the 12 roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left 13 early August 9th. Or something. I can't 14 remember. 15 MR. : I'm going to provide you a 16 copy of Au ust 9th -- 17 : Okay. 18 MR. -- roster. MCC SHU roster. 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : If you can take a look at it 21 and let me know if you were on schedule. 22 : No. I'm not on it. 23 : Okay. 24 Okay. 25 : And who -- MR. you be -. MR. MR. MR. EFTA00064271 25 26 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 2 MR. : -- where would that be 3 listed? Sorry. 4 MR. : I thought you were going 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 7 just going back, before we talk about the 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 11 removed from sychological observation? 12 : No. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 15 trying to get him off of psychological 16 observation, so that they could continue with 17 their attorne /client visits? 18 : No. I didn't hear. 19 MR. : You never heard that? 20 : No. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 22 can move to the actual -. 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 25 : Can I -. Actually -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Where -? I would be under the SIS Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS Lieutenant. MR. : And there is - on that 9th, what does it state there? It says unassigned? : Unassigned. MR. : So, no one was working that day? : No. I was the only SIS Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. Nobody was in there that day. : Can you just circle that for MR. us? Sure. MR. So, you were not here on the 9th, is what you are saying? No. MR. Okay. No. MR. And no one was? Not in the SIS Shop. MR. Oh, wow. Is that abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 being in SIS? : Actually, the SIS Technician, her days off is Friday and Saturday. MR. : Oh, wow. : And at the time, it was only two of usiiiiiiiiiin the whole area. MR. : So, there was only one tech and lieutenant? One tech and one lieutenant. MR. : Would the SIA have been on? : We didn't have one at the time. MR. Oh, so it was literally just the two of you? Yes. MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was working? No. I normally -- MR. : (Indiscernible *00:1iiiiiiiiii -- on a Friday, I would have been on because she would have been off. So, I took off -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 MR. (Indiscernible *00:19:36). -- on Friday. I can't recall why. MR. . Sure. : But -. MR. : And who was the SIS tech? : Her name is (Phonetic *00:19:43). MR. Yes. MR. : All right. MR. : But she wasn't here? No. She wasn't here. MR. : And do you recall that you actually - I know that the schedule says that - but do you recall not being here? Thinking that it was the day before. Yes. MR. • Okay. MR. : Put this here just in case we need to go back. MR. : Okay. MR. : When did you first become aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00064272 29 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 back? 24 25 understand. : The day of the actual suicide. MR. : When you say actual suicide, which would be -- : August 10th. MR. -- August 10th. : Yes. MR. : Saturday, when you came in, that's when you learned -? : When I came in. Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, when you came in, what were you aware of why was removed from the institution? : After speaking to him, they told me he got released from court. That's what I was told. MR. : Who told you that he was -? : Not sure. : Not sure. Okay. : I can't remember. MR. So, your understanding was, went to court and he just didn't come MR. : Right. That's what I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : What's a normal procedure, how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being moved to court, or being transferred out? : From court, you're saying? MR. : From court. Let's say -- : You're talking about court. MR. - was MR. : Well, no, in this case, did you ever hear that actually never went to court, he actually was transferred to another institution? : No. I heard he went to court. MR. : So, even to this date -- And was released from court. MR. -- to this date, did you ever hear that, that he never went to court? He actually was transferred? No. I've never heard that. MR. : Oh, you've never even heard that? No. MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because that's what happened. He never went to court. He was transferred. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 I still don't know. MR. : That's what (Indiscernible *00:21:24). : That's (Indiscernible have -- MR. Sure. -- assumed that he went to : court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he made bail or something -- MR. Okay. -- and he got released from court. MR. was sa in MR. MR. investigation, I'll show you an email. This email is dated -. This is from (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:46), from the U.S. Marshal Service. MI.E Okay. : And it went to, it looks like the em to ees at the R&D. : Mm-hmm. But that's what everybody that he actually went to court. : Yes. Okay. : So, based on what we - our 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And it says, transfer of inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. This email was sent to them. If you take a look at the title, the subject, it says, "Transfer of inmates." Yeah. MR. : And it says, "Transfer of prisoners from -- : I see it. MR. -- to GO. (Phonetic Sp. *00:22:10 : To GO. And inmate is stated on this. So, he never -. It's not that he went to court. He actually was transferred to GO. Do you know what the procedure is for something like that? If an inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know that the inmate needs to be pulled out? : Normally, R&D would get in touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. MR. : Is that known as a court list? 32 EFTA00064273 33 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : A court list. MR. : And that list comes over, and they let the SHU officers know? Yes. MR. : So, they prepare them. And on that - if that he was leaving - what would it state on the -? Have you ever heard the term, WAB? Yes. : What does -- : Yes. . WAB mean to you? : With All Belongings. MR. : And what is your underiiiiiiiilif it states that? : To me, With All Belongings can mean anything. You know, where is he going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? MR. : But does it mean that he's comm a back? : To me, no. MR. : And your understanding is, if it sa s WAB he's leaving for certain? Right. MR. : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Right. MR. : And when, as an SIS, would you get a copy of those court production lists No. MR. -- or productions? No? No. MR. Okay. MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after this investigation started, after Epstein's death, ever seeing that court list for that day? No. I've never seen it. MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy of it, do you know if there's any way we can obtaiiiiiiiiilif that? : I would think it should be in the Receiiiiiiind Discharge area. MR. : And that's something that they -- The R&D. MR. : -- if we asked, and based on it, it said no one seems to have maintained a copy of that. It looks like they've printed 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 the court list. 11 MR. . No? 12 : To be honest with you. I had 13 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 14 court list. 15 MR. So, in the stuff -- 16 Oh. 17 MR. -- that you did, on the 18 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into 19 it at all, 20 a cellmate? 21 : I think I did. I think I did 22 run his SENTRY_QA2trwork, once I got here. to 23 see where was IIIII. What happened with 24 I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. 25 MR. Okay. But you didn't -. 35 , and then they disposed of it. : I don't know. Okay. MR. Was it kept, though, under your investigation, for when you went in on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, part of, like, anything that you would have collected? : Did I? I don't think I had leaving and Epstein not having 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 You didn't ever maintain, you know, court list though? : I didn't have the MR. : Okay. I don't recall having 36 obtain that court list. a court list. No. MR. And so, do you - if R&D doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is any way that we could get our hands on one of these court lists? : I don't know. I don't know, in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their functions. So, I don't even know if they were able to - be able to go back. MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. They replace it every day. Right. MR. Every (Indiscernible *00:25:14), so no one -- : See, I don't -- MR. -- is going to maintain in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other email? MR. : Which one? MR. : The one that they sent EFTA00064274 37 1 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was 2 being transferred. 3 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 4 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 5 print that one out. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 7 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshal 8 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 9 they still do this - but they would send out an 10 email the day before, which would be sent to, 11 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 12 other people, for people who, the following 13 day, are going to court or being transferred. 14 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 15 the Marshal Service? 16 : I've probably seen it. 17 MR. : Okay. But you don't 18 reall know what I'm talking about? 19 : Oh, it -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 • -- I would have to see it. 22 To be honest with ou. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I'm going to take a step 25 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you recall that anyone from upper management, or even psych, mentioning that he was required to have a cellmate? : I didn't hear it, per se. But normally, when they come off of suicide watch, or a psych observation, they have to have a cellmate. And psychology, usually harbor on that. You know? They have to -- MR. : Why is it -- -- have a cellmate. MR. -- why is it that they need a cellmate? : I don't want to guess, but I would say, even though, you know, an attempt possibly was made, you want to prevent something ha going forward. MR. : And do you recall - but you said you're not sure - but do you recall that there was a requirement for Epstein to have a cellmate? : Yes. I do recall them saying he had to have a cellmate. MR. : And that was by word of mouth? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 By word of mouth. MR. : Do you recall who you heard it from? : Let's see. I want to say III , who is the psychologist. I want to say said that he has to have a cellmate. MR. : So, she probably came down. Do you recall if she told other people in the SHU, in ., * to that? : I don't know because I wouldn't have been in the SHU. MR. : All right. : Sorry. MR. : The reason I ask is, now that we know that is leaving the SHU, right? And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes down, and our understanding is, on that court list, it states WAB Mm-hmm. MR. -- and he's brought down to R&D. And he's removed from the facility. Whose responsibility would it have been, at that point, to make sure that Epstein had a cellmate? : I would say the supervisor. 40 1 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, 2 because he would know that he's leaving out of 3 the SHU. 4 MR. : And this is the August 9th 5 roster agiiiiiiiiliou take -. 6 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant 7 was actuall off -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. -- on the 9th, as well. 10 : Okay. 11 MR. So, if he is off, then 12 who would then become the next person -- 13 : The next person -- 14 MR. -- moving up? 15 • -- would be the Operations 16 Lieutenant should been notified. 17 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And who should have 18 notifiiiiiiiiiierations Lieutenant? 19 : Normally, the SHU staff would 20 say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, 21 Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. 22 MR. And at what point -- 23 So, I'm sorry -- 24 MR. • -- should the -- 25 cellmate. EFTA00064275 41 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Eirhat's fine. MR. : At what point should the SHU staff have notified the Operations Lieutenant? Immediately. MR. So, as soon as that persoiliiiiiiii -? : As soon as Mr. that cell. MR. Okay. And is it one person over another, within the SHU, that should have told him? Or is it any one of them? No. MR. Or all of them? : I would say any one. MR. : Was there a person referred to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during that time? Like, one specific -- : Yes. MR. : -- person. : They do have, yes, the SHU came out OIC, yes. MR. : I know this roster shows SHU- 1, SHU-2, SHU-3. But -- 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : -- was there any specific 3 person, during that time period, who was 4 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 5 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 6 charge? 7 : Yes. It would been the SHU 8 number oniuilich would be Officer 9 MR. IIIIII: . But what about, we 10 heard other people refer to as as, 11 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 12 been in there the longest, at that point. 13 : Yes. 14 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 15 : Yes. 16 MR. : He would be the OIC? 17 : He was the OIC, probably for 18 the quartEL_Iald say, he was. 19 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And why wouldn't he be 20 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 21 quarter? know? 22 : He could have been on his day 23 off. I don't know. 24 MR. No, no. He was there. 25 And we heard that -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 Oh, he was? MR. : -- he's actually was the OIC. But he's not listed as one. : Oh, I don't know. I didn't even see him as the number three. I don't -. I don't know. MR. listed as one But he should have been because he was the quarter -- : If that was his -- MR. • -- post? • -- if that was his post for the quarter, he should have been listed as the SHU number one. MR. Okay. : Unless they did a switch, or a mutual thin or somSetl i to that effect. MR. : And , at that point, in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, as the SHU OIC from your recollection? Yeah. MR. : So, the morning of, what happened based on our investigation, is Epstein and his cellmate, were removed at the same time. So Officer came in. : Okay. 44 1 MR. : With the court order. He 2 knew -- 3 MR. • Court list. 4 MR. : -- court list, and he knew 5 that 6 stuff in a little brown paper bag, and was leaving. So, they packeil ii his 7 retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they 8 both were transported on the elevator down 9 to ether. Epstein to attorney conference, and 10 out. 11 : Okay. 12 MR. : And we know, in the elevator, 13 too, there was a conversation about Epstein 14 needin a cellmate. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. : Now, being that 17 escorted him down, and down, he was in the 18 elevator, and was in the elevator, 1 19 knowing that is leaving, out of them two, 20 should either of them have made a notification 21 immediate) ? 22 : Yes. 23 MR. : Do you think they would have 24 known that it was important that they made the 25 notification? EFTA00064276 45 46 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : Why do you think that? 3 : If you had a conversation 4 about him needing a cellmate, that means - to 5 me - you know that it was important for him to 6 have one. And you knew that his - obviously - 7 Mr. was leaving WAR. And Epstein needed 8 a cellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then 9 and there, the notification should have been 10 made. Even though he's in attorney conference, 11 but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we 12 need a cellmate for him. 13 MR. : Is there any reason for them 14 to believe that, even though it showed WAB, 15 that - that for them to believe that 16 would be coming back? 17 : I would say no. If it says 18 WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that 19 he's not •con i back. 20 MR. : Now, if, let's say they've 21 mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to 22 R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they're not 23 going to court, and sometimes they come back 24 up. How lon does that process normally take? 25 : It happens. Hmm. I've seen 1 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates 2 will come back up. 3 MR. : So, this is, they were 4 brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 5 8:30 a.m. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 !FIB So, when you say a couple 8 hours, we're talking about anywhere between 9 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? 10 : Yeah. I've seen inmates come 11 up later. You know, an hour and a half, you 12 know, he didn't -. He's not leaving on a bus. 13 Once they get everybody on the bus, they will 14 go back uiliiiipecial Housing. 15 MR. : Now, if the inmate was not 16 brought back up to the SHU, let's say by even 17 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they're 18 expecting that there is a possibility that the 19 inmate might come back up, and it doesn't 20 happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a 21 notification? 22 : They normally would. And 23 because they - I'm going to reach and say - 24 they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't 25 come back -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 MR. : I should clarify that -- -- come by then. MR. meant notification, should EMI or anybody in the SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the superior, he , listen - supervisors - hey, listen, is one, and Epstein is -- MR. : And not 11:00. Just during their shift. At some point, if they left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a notification, should have they known by 2:00 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming back? E•bsolutely. MR. : Okay. So, at some point, prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have been made? Yes. Yes. MR. : And you mentioned that it should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. Lieutenant is not there. And it should have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops lieutenant during that shift? The morning shift. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 MR. : And he should have been notified, and what should have done? : He should have notified, of course, his chain of command, which is the captain, hey, Epstein's cellmate has left, and he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would have told psychology, you know, Epstein's cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would say, I guess, they would go back to that process of seeing who was a good fit for him. MR. : And if - what is your understanding - if that notification was never made up the chain of command? MR. What's your question? : Yeah. MR. : What is your understanding, if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, in terms of -. I should clarii, If that notification never got -. If never told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant never told the captain, right? When was the next time they would have caught onto the fact Epstein needed a cellmate? EFTA00064277 49 1 : Again, I would say somewhere 2 between that shift, they should have made that 3 notification. If not, it would have went onto 4 the evening shift, that he still was without a 5 cellmate. 6 MR. : And you said that the inmate 7 was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a 8 cellmate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU 9 assigned somebody to be Epstein's cellmate? 10 : Normally, in a case where 11 they try to get that good fit, they would talk 12 to the captain, who would have talked to 13 psychology, and they'll go through the SHU 14 roster to see who they think would be suitable 15 to put him in with. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 17 else on that? 18 MR. : Yes. So, when you go to 19 - you said the next shift -sowho -? So, 20 you're saying that, after left, and 21 his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU 22 should have, then, made the same notifications 23 up the chain of command? 24 : If they're saying he didn't 25 have a cellmate. so 1 MR. : Okay. And then, would 2 that go on again to the morning watch? 3 Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 4 hours. So, every shift, should have they made 5 that notification up? 6 : I would say yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And is it your 8 understanding that the operations lieutenant 9 actually has that same court list, that they 10 would have Headquarters, that would have shown 11 him as WAB? 12 : The court list, yeah. 13 Usually, it's in the lieutenant's office, in 14 the morniii s. 15 MR. : Okay. So, if says 16 that he actually knows that left, or 17 thought he went to court, and didn't know if he 18 wasn't going to come back, if he had that court 19 list, that said WAR, should have he referenced 20 that, or looked at it? 21 : Right. 22 MR. : Yes? 23 : Yes, sir. 24 MR. : Okay. So, is that a kind 25 of an excuse to say, for the operations 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 lieutenant, hey, I know left, but I thought he was coming back, and he - or I didn't know if he wasn't coming back - and he did not pass that information onto the next ops lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of that matter? : My opinion of that is definitely, you know, something is wrong, because if you have the court list sitting in front of you, it says WAB. And it means he took all his belongings. You know, if it was court, it would sa court. MR. : Okay. And do you know how, do the operations lieutenants actually look at that list? I can't speak for -. MR. Are they supposed to? I would say yes. MR. Okay. : Because you know who's moving from the Special Housing. And some of the inmates that move actually are lieutenant moves, where you have to go up and get them. So, you're going to look at the court list to see who is moving. 52 1 MR. Okay. And then, as far 2 as . Did everyone know who was at 3 that time? Do you believ2_1b2liif._for 4 instance, someone like a MI=, he sees 5 on the list, sees that he's WAB. Would 6 he know that's Epstein's cellmate? It says 7 he's from the SHU. He's WAR. Would he know 8 that that's Epstein's cellmate? Or do you 9 think that that notification would still need 10 to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to 11 kind that? 12 : I can't even say he should 13 have known that that was his cellmate because 14 he's in a different area than the Special 15 Housing. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : So, sometimes, you wouldn't 18 know whose cell that up there, you know, up in 19 the Speciiiiiiiiiiii. 20 MR. : Okay. But if he says, 21 now, SHU didn't tell me, that I knew because I 22 had the court list, and it says WAB, should 23 have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this 24 guy hiiiiiiiiiind he was not coming back? 25 : Yes. EFTA00064278 53 54 1 MR. Okay. 2 I can agree with that. 3 MR. • Okay. Great. What do 4 you think the -? Would that court list stay in 5 the operations, or the lieutenants office, 6 throughout the duration of the day, would the 7 next operation lieutenant that came on - which 8 I believe is - would that person have 9 also had that court list? 10 : It normally stay in there for 11 the day. On a clipboard. It usually would be 12 on a clipboard in the lieutenant's office. So, 13 I don't -. I can't say that , you know, 14 looked at it, but it should have been there 15 when he came on. 16 MR. Should have he looked at 17 it? 18 : I could -. 19 MR. • And I'm asking you this 20 as the SIS lieutenant. We don't know the 21 answer to that. So, that's why we're asking 22 you. 23 : A good lieutenant would. 24 MR. : Right. 25 : Because you would know who is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not in your ail. MR. : Right. As far as other people that could have made this notification, what would the unit teams' responsibility be for if one of their people who was assigned to SHU, left the institution? Should have they been coordinating, or making any notifications? : I'm not sure what role they play when the inmates leave the Special housing, to be honest with you. MR. You don't? : Yeah. I don't know what role they play. MR. Okay. : With their inmates. That's an issue, as far as them leaving. MR. : All right. So, for you, though, you feel, like, the primary person that would be responsible would be the person who was actually with the inmate, who brought him down, and knew that he was leaving? Yes. MR. So, in this case, should have made the notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 that iiiiiiiiliould say? : I would say him and whatever other officer did the escort with him. MR. . Okay. Fair enough. : Because they know the SHU inmates. MR. • Right. Okay. MR. : What about the officers in the SHU, at that point? Let's say there was - how many officers that you mentioned? - and who else were in the SHU? : Yes. MR. : In the morning shift. MR. : Yes. MR. : Should they have -. Would they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? : Yes. If they're working up - yeah - I would say yes. MR. : And let's say, during this shift, should they have understood - I know he asked already - should they have understood the fact that, Epstein needed a cellmate -- : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Yes. MR. : Anything else on that? MR. And they would have known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? : From doing their rounds. And if they were -- Yes. MR. : -- doing rounds, they would know there's no one in that cell? Yes. MR. MR. rounds? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. Wind the counts. So, based on : 56 MR. : -- could they have made notification? Yes. MR. : And who came to the SHU after that? . Ms. Noel. And MR. : And during this shift, should they have known also? Should they have made notification? MR. Okay. : So, we can go into the EFTA00064279 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 our - based on what we - in our investigation, we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. : Mm-hmm. MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. : Right. MR. : And if the counts were done, as Agent just asked, if the counts were done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that was not there, and Epstein needed a cellmate? MR. : Yes. : What about at 10:00 p.m.? : Yes. MR. : All right. And the reason that we were able to determine it, is also because of the fact that inmate was removed from the SHU by . He was actually in the SHU viiiiiiilioom, and there was an incident where witnessed him possibly having contraband, so he removed him. He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a dry cell in R&D. : Mm-hmm. 58 1 MR. : Except he was not keyed out. 2 This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after 3 -. Except he was not keyed until after 4 midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed 5 from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry 6 cell, who should have -? Who had the 7 responsibility to key him out, at that point? 8 off the SHU and place him in R&D? 9 : It would have been the counts 10 and assignment to walk those in. 11 MR. : That's a CNA? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : I see. Counts and 14 assignment. And how would CNA have known that 15 he got moved? 16 : Well, normally, they would 17 make a notification, I would say, when he got 18 to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in 19 the dry cell. 20 MR. : So, R&D should have notified 21 counts and assignments? 22 : Yes. 23 MR. : Was there any responsibility 24 for the officer who removed him from the SHU, 25 and brought him down? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 : He could have, as well. Because you brought him down. And he's coming off of the SHU base count. : What is -? He's coming off count shoul also -- MR. of inmates sheets? MR. apologize. pre-filling let's just (Indiscerni MR. have their rounds duri and they fi they try to : Right. • -- so, at 4:00 p.m., the d have been adjusted on the El, and : Absolutely. -- okay. Have you ever heard pre-filling the rounds and count : Inmates? : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I Have you ever heard of the C.D.s the rounds and count sheets? When, say the rounds there abouts ble *00:43:25) of their shift. : Yes. : Right? And they go in, they round sheet. They expect to do the ng the certain times, so they go in 11 it out for the whole shift. And do it during those times that they 60 1 filled out. 2 : I've never seen it, to be 3 honest wisb_122. I've never seen that. 4 MR. IIIIII: Have you ever heard of C.D.s 5 doing that? 6 : No. 7 MR. : Has there ever been any 8 incidents in MCC regarding C.D.s pre-filling -? 9 : Not that I know of. 10 MR. : What about the count sheets? 11 Would they start the shift, they already know 12 what count is supposed to be there? 13 : I've seen that. 14 MR. : And what have you seen? 15 : Well, my experience being a 16 lieutenant, and being in the control center, 17 taking the count, I have seen count slips come 18 down to the control center, and I'm monitoring 19 the camera because I'm physically watching you 20 count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I 21 haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, 22 and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I 23 have your count sheet and you haven't counted 24 yet? 25 MR. : Is that normal procedure as a EFTA00064280 61 1 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from 2 the control room, you pay attention to the 3 monitor watch -? 4 : I could only speak for 5 myself. 6 MR. : So, as your practice. 7 : I do. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : And you watch the C.O.s to 11 make sure that they're doing the counts. 12 : Absolutely. 13 MR. : Which C.O.s have you seen 14 that haven't done that? That haven't done the 15 counts but their count slips in. 16 IIIIIIIIII: Pfft. I can't give you exact 17 names because I've been on all of the shifts. 18 MR. : And what happens if, in a 19 situation like that, if you see that, that they 20 didn't do the count, but they send the slip 21 down? What do you do? 22 : I'm pulling. I'm doing a 23 verbal counseling. 24 MR. : Verbal counseling. 25 : Yes. I'm doing a verbal 62 1 counseling. Basically, listen, don't send me 2 your count slip until you do your count. Next 3 time, I'm going to go to the next step, which 4 is discipline. 5 MR. : And have you ever told them 6 to go back and count? 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : And they followed it? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : What is a lieutenant round? 11 You understand it, you just mentioned that, 12 when you do a count -- 13 MR. : In the SHU. What is a 14 lieutenant round in the SHU? 15 MR. yeah. 16 : In the SHU, with the 17 lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as 18 every other area, you see if there's anything 19 abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to 20 ask a question. You know, anything we should 21 know about, anything you got going on up there. 22 You're just making sure that the officers are 23 doing their job for the shift, the inmates are 24 getting their phone calls, if there's any 25 inmates that haven't been showered, who may 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 shower. You're making sure those are done. Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have inmates callin ou, once you get there. MR. : Right. : Once the door open. So, you're going on the ranges and seeing what's going on with the inmates on the ranges. MR. : Now, are you supposed to go from door to door, when your lieutenant does a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to do a round just as, like, a C.O. that's working the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check and see -- To be honest -- MR. • -- what's going on? -- I don't think there's nothing in policy stating that we have to go door to door, and see each inmate, but you - most of the time - you will go on a range, I would assume, because you want to see what's going on. With the inmates. Especially since it's the MR. : So, this is where we get a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door 64 1 to door, and that's what a round is. Select 2 few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, 3 no, that's not -. It's your discretion, if you 4 do that or not. So, are you kind of more of 5 that, that kind of side of it, it's their 6 discretion? 7 : I'm more of 8 MR. -. : Because they have to sign 9 when they - is it correct - that they have to 10 sign the round sheet -- 11 : Yes. 12 MR. -- saying they did a 13 round? 14 : So, normally, like myself, I 15 would be on the range, because the round sheets 16 are on the range. So, you have to go on the 17 range to • Ser si r ound sheets. 18 MR. : But do you have - but 19 just to go on the range, I guess you don't 20 necessaril have to look in -- 21 : Right. 22 MR. : -- their window. 23 Correct? 24 : Right. But if you go on, 25 you're going to look door to door. I would EFTA00064281 65 1 think. 2 MR. But this time, our 3 understanding is the round sheets were actually 4 kept on the officer's desks. On the desk out - . So, not on the range. They all did it right 6 from where the desk was. Do you know if that's 7 the case? 8 : I don't. I don't know. This 9 is the first I'm hearing of it. Because 10 normally, the 're at the end of the range. 11 MR. : Right. 12 : On the wall. So, that's 13 going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on 14 each range because you have to go to the end of 15 the rangeliiiiiiiii 16 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 17 there is maybe MCC didn't have this practice, 18 but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant 19 round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the 20 lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, 21 saying that they conducted the round in the 22 SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that 23 they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, 24 and that's the reason why they put these sheets 25 at the end of the ranges? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 : I don't recall if that's what the polic sa s. MR. Okay. : Yeah. MR. : And just as far as clarification, do you know if BOP policy states where the count sheets, or the round sheets are supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you have to look at it, but does it state that it should be either kept on the officer's desk, or at the end of the -? : I've never seen -- MR. : Okay. -- yeah. I've never seen that polic where it should be kept that. MR. : Okay. That's just practice? : Yes. MR. : Okay. Do you have anything on the rounds and counts? MR. : No. I guess I just, do you think if the lieutenants that did the rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any exposure to the fact that IIIII was gone, and should have they - when they did their rounds - should have they known that, hey, this cell is 67 1 empty,Lestein's down at attorney conference, 2 and IIIII isn't here, so there's no one in that 3 cell. Should have they been, you know, should 4 have the known -? 5 : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : If you knew that on the count 8 slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he 9 was WAR, and you see Epstein downstairs, then 10 if you're paying attention, you would just -. 11 That's something you would have asked. Hey, we 12 got a cellmate for him yet? Who he's going 13 with. That t e of thing. 14 MR. : Okay. So, those 15 lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in 16 the SHU, on that date, then they do have some 17 fault in this, that was never replaced? 18 : I'm going to say yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Anything else on rounds and 21 counts? I'm movin onto cameras. 22 MR. . Perfect. 23 MR. : Okay. When did you learn 24 that the cameras were not working at the MCC? 25 : August 8th. 68 1 MR. : August 8th. Okay. 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : Can you tell us what 4 transiiiiiiiiii 5 : I actually was reviewing the 6 cameras from the SIS office, with one of the 7 associate wardens. We were looking for an 8 inmate, to see what time he was released, a 9 cadre (Phonetic Sp. *00:50:30) inmate. We were 10 looking to see what time he was released 11 because I was trying to backtrack, because I 12 was going to interview the inmate, with an OIC 13 officer, about an incident. And I learned, 14 he's gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his 15 release date - which, he was scheduled to be 16 released - so, that made me go back to look to 17 see, well, let me see what time they released 18 him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he 19 got released, so we could get in touch with 20 that halfway house. So, we - myself and the 21 agent - was going to go to the halfway house, 22 to interview him. 23 And upon me going back to the cameras, I 24 said, wait a minute, we don't have no cameras. 25 I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on EFTA00064282 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 several cameras, just to see if I could play it back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. At that time, I called the communications shop, and told them, I don't have no cameras up here. You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm going to come and check the camera system, which he has the keys for, as well. And he did check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going to do overtime or something to that effect. To fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the captain. MR. : Oh, you notified the captain? E•es. MR. : That the cameras were down? : That the cameras was down. And I wrote a memo - a memorandum - as well. MR. : Oh, if you have that, can you please ive it to us? : It's - I can't get in my home drive - it would be on my home drive. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. to get access 70 : And when will you be able to that? : I'm out of work. So, I can't access it. MR. : Oh, we have heard that you were back this week. Is that not the case? No. MR. : Oh. : I'm not back this week. I only came for the interview. I won't be back for maybel_lils2a_iaother two to three weeks. MR. IIIIIIIIII: When you come back in two or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an emailiiiiiiiiilfar as, like -- : I was going to say. If you email me where to send it to, yes. MR. Fantastic. : So, at that point, I did type the memo that the cameras was done. MR. : This is on the 8th? : On the 8th. : Okay. : Yes. And I assumed that the gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras that day. MR. 71 1 MR. So, and when iii 2 gentleman " are you talking about ?y "the 3 : Yes. 4 MR. . Okay. So, that's the 5 person who came in and checked? 6 Yes. : 7 MR. : Is it true that he can 8 only obtain access to the camera room, if an 9 SIS eiiiiiiiiiitually lets him in? 10 : Absolutely not. He has the 11 keys. 12 MR. : At that time, he did? 13 : The first door, which is the 14 steel door with the Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:53:21iiiiiiiiiito let him into that. 16 MR. : That's what I mean. So, 17 he can't actually get -- 18 Right. 19 MR. -- in to the SIS -- 20 Unless I -- 21 MR. -- area 22 -- let him into that part. 23 MR. Correct. 24 Right. 25 MR. So, he had told you, on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix it? And do overtime to fix it. MR. . Okay. : Because I let him into the office, so he can go see what I was telling him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. MR. : Okay. And do you know if that's the first time it was noticed, that those cameras were down? : I can't say that that was the first time that was noticed. MR. : Because our investigation shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those cameras stopped recording. So, there is about half of the cameras in the institution that were recording, and half that weren't. They were all live monitoring. Yes. MR. : But did you find anything about that, or do you know anything about that? : No. No. It's not until I was actually in the phone room, with the agents, going through the cameras, that we realized that they stopped recording. EFTA00064283 73 1 MR. Oh, so, you knew this on 2 the 10th or something, you -- 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. -- realized this -- 5 Yeah. It was -- 6 MR. . -- after the 7 investi ation? 8 Mm-hmm. 9 MR. So, you had heard, later, 10 that at 7 11 Right. 12 MR. -- is when -? Okay. 13 Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : So, you know that now, is 15 what ou mean by -- 16 Yes. 17 MR. -- between 7/29 and 18 August 8th -- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. The 10th. • -- you never -? No. Okay. No. So, the 8th was the first time you found out? 74 1 W.Yes. 2 MR. : Do you remember if, prior 3 to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, 4 trying to rewind and watch? Because I would 5 think that's something you do kind of 6 regularl . 7 : I can't remember if it was 8 myself, or the SIS tech IIII, to be honest with 9 you, because normally, if it's an incident and 10 I need some video footage, I'll ask her to pull 11 the footage for me. You know? So, I can see 12 it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident 13 where we iiiiiiiiii any camera footage. 14 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 15 remember if there was footage before that. 16 WENo. 17 MR. : Was there a tech III, or 18 IIII, or something like that? 19 : Phone monitor. 20 MR. . He was on -- 21 : Yeah. III was the phone 22 monitor, which is a regular correctional 23 officers. 24 MR. Oh, so, he's not an SIS 25 tech? 75 1 : No. Hmm-mm. 2 MR. : All right. But would he 3 work in the SIS room? 4 : In the phone room. 5 MR. Okay. 6 He would be assigned, for the 7 quarter, to the hone room. 8 MR. . That's in the SIS office? 9 : It's not in my office, but 10 it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It's kind 11 of, like, next door to SIS. 12 MR. : Is that the room where 13 the camera servers are located? 14 Yes. 15 : : Okay. So, does he also MR. 16 need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able 17 to do hone monitors? 18 : No. 19 MR. : How does he get in and 20 out? 21 : He has the phone monitor 22 keys, half the keyring for him to get into the 23 door. 24 MR. : To get into 25 -- : I'm sorry. The key. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 MR. • -- the primary SIS area? Yes. MR. : Okay. So, do you know if he waiiiiiiiiiion the 9th? : I don't know if he was working because he hadn't been in the phone room for some -- MR. Would he be listed on the : -- let me look. Because they were actually pulling him every day, re- assigning him to different posts. So, he is working, but they re-assigned him to another post. MR. : Okay. So, he wasn't - on the 9th - he wasn't actually working? : If you see three Sally, you'll see him there. MR. : And would that be because there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow him into that room? : No. It would be because they were short-staffed. MR. Okay. : And they just re-assigned him EFTA00064284 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 to anotheiliiiiiiii MR. : Okay. So, if says that he wasn't able to fix the cameras on the 8th because he didn't have the proper equipment, and then he couldn't gain access on the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn't able to get in on the 9th because neither you or the tech were here. : He would be able to get in because my keys don't go home with me. He would have just had to ask the captain for access to the SIS keys, and he would have been able to go into the office. MR. : And like you said, the captain actually knew that the cameras were down? ME•es. : And you are positive of MR. that? I'm positive. MR. : Did you have a verbal conversation with him about it? : I had a verbal conversation. MR. And can you recall what that conversation entailed? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 1 about a need to get them back up? 2 : I don't know if they had a 3 separate conversation, but when I called Mr. 4 over to radio, Ms. IIII was still S standing there with me in the office. And she 6 was there with me when he came up to check, 7 because we thought it was something that maybe 8 he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the 9 camera, and look for what we were looking for. 10 MR. : And when he mentioned the 11 whole I'll stay overtime, was she there when - 12 was there - when he mentioned that he 13 wouldiiiiiiiiliork overtime? 14 : I can't remember because I 15 know he had to get in touch with his boss 16 first. 17 MR. Oh, okay. So -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. • -- so, told us 20 that he was approved to work overtime on 21 Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do 22 you know who he would have contacted, in order 23 to geiliiiiiiiiroval to work overtime? 24 : I don't know. I would assume 25 his boss, which was Mr. (Phonetic Sp. 78 : I remember stepping to his office, which was right next door to mine, and notifying him that the cameras was down, that I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, and I can't. Actually, I had one of the associate wardens with me, as well. Who happens to be his supervisor, so. MR. Who was that? Associate Warden IIII. MR. : was there? Yes. MR. • Okay. : It was me and her together, looking at the cameras. MR. Okay. Sound it wasn't it was actually : No. It was me and AW And that was with Captain Yes. MR. : Okay. So then, the two of them knew that the cameras were down? : Yes. MR. All right. And dos know if they had any conversations with 80 1 *00:58:47). 2 MR. Now is out, and he 3 has acting in his life Phonetic 4 Sp. *00:58:53), and and 5 both say, he didn't talk to me about working 6 overtime. Is there anyone else that he would 7 have been -? Well, because you said that he 8 told ou he was going to work overtime. 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Would you be an approving 11 official for that? 12 No. 13 MR. : Would be an 14 approvin official, though? 15 : I'm not sure if she was over 16 facilities, that department. So, I'm - no - 17 I'm not sure. 18 MR. : Okay. So, how did he 19 know he would be able to work overtime to fix 20 it? 21 I don't know. 22 MR. You don't know? He just 23 said I'll work overtime. 24 : Yes. 25 MR. Okay. So, I'm assuming EFTA00064285 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 8th, that you learned of this incident, since his siiiiiiiiiially ends at 2:00 p.m.? : Yeah. It was a little after 1:00 p.m. MR. Okay. And that was the 8th. But again, on the 8th was the first that you found out the cameras -- Yes. MR. : -- were down? Do you know if there is anyway anyone could have tampered with that system, to intentionally take the cameras offline? : I don't know. I don't know because nobody normally goes into - with the service bar - besides him. Or there's one more communication tech, MR. Was he there, though, at the time? No. MR. So -- No. MR. -- it was just - at the time - it was only . Correct? : Yes. It was just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 82 MR. So, who would have had access to that server rom? Now, in the MCC as a whole, who could have had access to that server room, and would potentially taken it offline? : I don't know who would intentionally take it off, but I can tell you the access would have been us, from the SIS shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. and . And I'm not sure if their key - if that ke is on in the other key ring. MR. : So, is it really only the two of you, then, with SIS, then also tt!_phone monitor individual Is it III or M? MR. Is that MR. : Just : I don't think Mr. III had the key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in 22 there, as well. So, I would always lock the 23 door back, because we don't allow an officer to 24 just walk where the server is at. 25 MR. Okay. 84 1 the time, though? 2 : Okay. 3 MR. Is that right? 4 I -- 5 MR. Oh, you don't know? 6 -- I really don't know. 7 MR. Oh, okay. No. That's 8 why I was asking you. 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. My understanding -- 11 don't know. 12 MR. -- was that was 13 the onl tech at the time. 14 : Okay. I don't know if 15 was in the building, but I know 16 dealt with at the time. 17 MR. : Okay. And then, 18 would have? 19 : I think it may be on Mr. 20 key because he's the facilities manager. 21 But again, I'm not sure what keys they have. 22 MR. What about the captain? 23 don't know. 24 MR. Now, when you -- 25 : I don't know what's on his 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 MMilo MR. : So, the server, actually, was in a locked door? Yes. MR. : So, really, III didn't have access to it? : Right. MR. But the tech would have? Yes. MR. : Okay. Yes. She would. MR. : So, yourself, the tech, and MR. three oeo -- were really the only MR. : Well, wasn't here at the time, though. Correct? : Probably Mr. I think it's on his ke ring. MR. But - but just to clear that u was not -- : Okay. MR. wasn't here at is who I EFTA00064286 85 1 keyrings. 2 MR. -- now, you say you don't 3 ever leave the institution with these keys, did 4 you give them to the captain, or where are the 5 keys? 6 : No. They're located in the 7 control center behind a locked box. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : So, I have to give them the 10 key to open my locked box in order for me to 11 retrieve Ills. 12 MR. : Okay. And then, does 13 anybody else have that key, to open your locked 14 box, to et those keys? 15 : No. 16 MR. : What are -? You said the 17 captain does, though? I thought you said he 18 could have one to the captain to get the keys. 19 MR. : He can't get into my 20 locked box. He has his own locked box. 21 MR. : So, how would -. I think 22 you -. I though you said that the captain 23 could have allowed to get in -? 24 : He would have had them 25 allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 MR. They would have had to -- If it was another -- MR. -- actually break it? -- they would have to actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if it's an emergency, you would have to break the glass to retrieve our keys. MR. : And in this case, you believe that would be an emergency, that they were to break the glass to fix the cameras on the 9th? : Normally, yes. MR. So, you think that that would have been appropriate action, to break it? Yes. MR. : Okay. And captain does not actually have a into the SIS office, though? No. MR. Does anyone else? or -? : No. I think it's only on the SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we then, the key to get 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 didn't have one at the time. that MR. : Okay. But you're certain and , on the 8th, were aware that there was a camera issue, and not recording? MR. notified warden. MR. Yes. Do you know if they the warden? : I don't recall. • Okay. : Because I notified the And he seemed a little -- Notified the warden when? -- on the 10th. MR. . Okay. : On the 10th. Once I came in, once the incident happened. And me and him was having a conversation, and he was saying, and there's no cameras working, and I said, what do ou mean there's no cameras working? I said, was supposed to fix the cameras on the 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, what are you talking about? And I said, the cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I notified that the cameras was down. And 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 I said, I wrote a memo. MR. : And what happened with your memo? Who gets that memo? My memo, I usually give it to the captain. MR. Okay. And do you know, in this case did you give it to the captain? : I did give it to him. I might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I would have to look at my email. I might have emailed it as well. MR. And would have you -? And I might have emailed it to I can't remember -- MR. Can you -- -- exactly who I sent it to. MR. • -- you know, when you come in, can you check your sent box, and see if on the - you would have done this on the 8th, thot sS i? : It would have been on the 8th. MR. : Okay. : Yes, MR. : So, you would have - it EFTA00064287 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to him? MR. : And emailed, or both? Or I mean, one or the other? : Normally, because he's next door, I would hand deliver him stuff. MR. : Okay. : To be honest. And sometime, I would email it to him if his door is closed, and I don't see him. Or don't know if I'm going to see him before I leave. MR. : Okay. But you are positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, one way or the other? : Yeah. I'm almost - though, I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I know I verbally told him that the cameras was down. MR. : Are you 100 percent sure that there was a memo, though? Yes. MR. : But you may - when you say you're not 100 percent sure - when else would have you potentially done that memo? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 : No. I did the memo on the 8th. MR. Oh. So, that's where, when you say ou're not 100 percent sure -- If I -- MR. • -- right, you're not -- -- emailed it to him, I'm saying to MR. : -- but you're 100 percent sure iro .ovided it to him? : Yes. And I notified him, word of mouth that the cameras was down. MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay, and that - sorry - that's where I just want to make sure I'm clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you gave him that memo. You just don't know if you gave it to him, either by hand -- Or email. MR. S: -- or email. Yes. MR. • Okay. Yes. MR. : But it's definitely, he got it? : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 MR. Perfect. Okay. But regardless, both and knew -- That the cameras -- MR. -- verbally, and knew s ecifically, because she was -- Because she was with me. • -- involved. : Right. She was with me. MR. Yes. MR. involved Okay. And was she at all, with those discussions with : I can't remember if she stayed with me. I think she walked away. MR. Okay. : Because we couldn't get what we needed, as far as footage. MR. Were they both under the impression that was actually working on the camera system? Hmm. MR. : Like, did they ask, well, are you going to take care of this, or anything like that? : No. I don't remember them 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 speaking to I just know -- MR. : No. When ou verbally spoke with , though, and about the situation, did you say, I notified , he said he'll take care of it, or anything like that? Yes. Yes. MR. : Okay. So, you did tell them that that he would be fixing it. IIIIIIIIII: Yeah. Well, she was on the phone -. She was standing next to me when I was on the hone talking to Mr. MR. . Okay. Mm-hmm. MR. : What about the captain, though? Did he know? No. He wasn't near me. MR. : Did he ask, like, is to fix it, or anything like that? : No. He didn't -- MR. : Did he say anything? Well, what -- he didn't ask. MR. -- what was his response to you telling him that the cameras were down? EFTA00064288 93 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : He asked me, did I notify them, and I said es. MR. : That was my question. I'm sorr MR. MR. Okay. So -- I apologize. -- so, he did know that : Yes. MR. was notified? Yes. MR. Okay. Go ahead. MR. : Was the captain surprised the cameras were down? : I don't know if he was surprised because it's not, like, it's not normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? It's our job to notify who we need to notify to bring them back up. But -. MR. : Do you recall his reaction? Like, did he state,gt yeah, it must be fixed today? Make sure takes care of it. What was his exact reaction to that notification? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : I can't recall. MR. : Okay. I can't recall. MR. And did ever come back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that day, on the 8th? : No. He told me that on the 10th. MR. the 10th? : Once I walked into the Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. I don't know if he was working that day. But he was there, and when the door opened, you know, my response was, well, what happened to the cameras? And he said, oh, that's what I'm here for today. Which was two days later. I'm here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled him, and put him on the post, or something to that effect. And I said, but you told me you was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, like, I couldn't fix them on the 8th. I can't remember why he said he couldn't. But I think he responded to me before I could even ask the question, once he saw me because I was a little What did he tell you on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him. I just opened the door so he could get 95 taken back that the cameras were down. Because I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 8th. MR. Okay. MR. ran I ask you, when you guys : were - you and AW - were reviewing footage, aniiiiiirealized it wasn't working, you called . What was reaction to fiiiiiiiiiiithe cameras were not working? : He said he was going to come down and take a look at it. MR. : Did he mention it was an ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware of it, or was that the first he was hearing about it? Do you recall? : No. He didn't -- MR. : No? -- he didn't say. He just said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at it. MR. : And then, he came down, both of you guys were in the room, and he tried to - ? : No. I wasn't in there with 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 in. And he went in, and he came back, and he said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made a phone call, or he walked away one, and he said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, tonight. MR. And he did specifically say "tonight„? MR. MR. overtime, MR. MR. MR. didn't. But -- MR. Okay. Okay. MR. : -- as far as, if both you and the other SIS tech left, would he have been able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the camera room to be able to work on it? : Yes. MR. Okay. : Yes. Because it's been times : Yes. Okay. : And if he did stay, stay that would be on his webTA? • Well -- It should be. It should be. • -- well, no, we know he EFTA00064289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go home. And the captain would say, okay, well, leave your keys with me, you know, so he could have access. MR. MR. day, did you to sa , like I sure didn't. MR. -- hey. You did not? : I didn't. MR. Okay. And do you know what he did after you told him I'm going to take care of? Do you know what he did? E.4o. MR. : No. Did he stay in the room, thou he -? : No. He left out the room. He left out the room. MR. : All right. And then, did you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? : I would have left probably after her, because she leaves at 2:00. MR. Uh-huh. What time? • Okay. : To the room. • So, when you left that check back in with at all, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 I can't remember what happened that da MR. And what -? Normally, I'm there between 2:00 -. More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. MR. : Okay. So, if you both left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he was coming back that day to fix it, how would have he done that? : Because I would have spoken to the captain and said, hey, needs to get in the com room. MR. Do you remember, did that conversation occur? I honestly don't remember. MR. Okay. You don't remember. : No. MR. Okay. MR. : Nice Vision has that administrative feature. Nice Vision is the camera -- : Mm-hmm. MR. -- system, right? That administrative feature is called Supervision. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 Do you recall that? : Hmm. : Well -. There was a couple MR. MR. different MR. Name MR. • -- names, for different applications, but there is one application called Supervision, and that you might be able to log into Supervision and see if the recorder errors are actually recording. Do you know if you got access to that? : No. I have - mine is SIS lieutenant access so. MR. : Right. MR. : Who had administrative access to the camera system? Meaning that Supervision? MR. : Supervision. Who could go in, control the cameras, or take cameras offline? And mess with the cameras. : I don't know. I would say computer services have access, and probably, I would say, facilities managers should have Supervision access. 100 1 MR. : But not the SIS Shop? 2 : No. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. So -- 5 No. 6 MR. • -- and is 7 basicall who ou're saying? 8 : I don't know. I don't even 9 know if would have Supervision access 10 because -. I don't know. I would think, if 11 you say Si.", it would be upper -- 12 MR. : Yeah. Supervision 13 doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, 14 like, somebody in the -. It's a title for the 15 app. So, like, there's an app that says, like, 16 you know, these people are granted access to be 17 able to review and rewind, but then there's 18 another a -- 19 : Oh. 20 MR. : -- that allows you to 21 actually check to see if things are running 22 properly, and recording, an it's just called 23 Supervision. 24 : Oh, okay. 25 MR. That doesn't mean -- EFTA00064290 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 Then that would be -- MR. : -- that you're a supervisor. : -- that would be - I would say - that would be , because that's his area, the cameras. MR. Okay. And do you know if anybody else would have the ability to do things like that, to take, you know, recorders on or offline, or to at least check their status with the camera system? : I don't know. If it is, it would be facilities shop. MR. So, but primarily, would be the erson? : Mm-hmm. MR. Okay. Yes. MR. • Not you, though? No. MR. : And in no way, while you were -. Although, the only thing that would be able to tip you off, if things weren't recording, is if you started trying to rewind, and it wasn't rewinding. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 : If I tried to rewind, it wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know that it's a problem, even if it's not working at all. Or something is wrong with it. MR. : Did that - on the 8th, when ou were looking - were there any red X's? : I don't recall if -. Because it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different places. So, I don't recall there being a red X. MR. : But just to -- On any of them. MR. : -- circle back. What tipped you off was with you and trying to go back and review? Yes. MR. And that's where you said MR. : Yes. • -- why can't I do it? Mm-hmm. MR. • Gotcha. MR. : And prior to that day, you don't recall when the last time you guys tried 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 to review it was, right? : No. I don't recall. MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a little bit. It had been a little while? : Yes. MR. : Okay. Anything else on the cameras? MR. . I think that's all. MR. Okay. MR. : That's great information, that we didn't know that before. I didn't know that that's how we found out that the cameras were offline -- Mm-hmm. MR. : -- was basically your review. How often should have been going in to check those servers to make sure that the. were online? . Daily. MR. : So then, would you know if he was? : I can't say he was checking daily. I know that he was up there quite often. But I can't even say that he was checking the cameras because, one I let him in, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying what are ou doin or, so -- MR. And I know we're talk -- -- but daily, they should have checked. MR. -- I know we're talking a long time ago now, but do you remember, prior to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I think the information that we have suggests that the camera servers went down on the actual July 29th Hmm. MR. : -- of 2019. So, there is, like, a - more than a -- Week. MR. : -- week -- Yeah. Yeah. MR. : -- do you know if he was actually going in, at that time, for that week period, checking in on the servers at all, at this -? : I know he entered the area. But I don't know if he checked the servers while he were back there. But I know he was EFTA00064291 105 106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 entering the area. MR. . Okay. MR. : What else is in that area? : lust the servers in there. And ink cartrid es. At the top. MR. : And that's on the third floor? : It's on the third floor. MR. Okay. MR. : And then, nothing else is stored. Is there evidence stored in there? No. MR. : For some reason, we were under the impression that SIS stored evidence there. : There's no evidence in there. It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before I was born. MR. : And I think said that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and there's, like, some evidence, some old evidence, or evidence there. : Not where the servers are. But it's some file cabinets, where the servers are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Okay. Okay. -- a long time ago. So, next topic? Mm-hmm. : Okay. So, what was your understanding about why Epstein was not in his assigned cell? Were you aware that he was - when they found him - and he was not in the cell that he was assigned to in the system? : No. I learned that later on, that -- MR. : What did you learn? -- that he was keyed to one cell, but he was actually living in another cell. So, I don't know where they changed his cell at. MR. : And is this because the cell rotations that happen in the SHU? Right. MR. And who would have been responsible to make sure that this, once the cell rotaiiiiiiiiiined MR. : That's not the reason. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you learn how that happened? How he was keyed into one, and not in another? No. MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, he was initially placed into one cell, when he came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, but then, the CPAP (Phonetic Sp. *01:16:21) machine didn't actually reach into there, so they had to switch him to another? No. MR. : No? So, you never heard anything about that? No. MR. • Okay. Go ahead. MR. So -. MR. : Who would have been responsible for making those changes in the system, to make sure that he's in the actual cell where he's supposed to be there? : Normally, the SHU OIC make the changes. MR. So, it wouldn't be the lieutenant? It would be the OIC? 108 1 : Yeah. It would be the OIC. 2 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 3 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 4 there one overall OIC? 5 : There is one for each shift. 6 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 7 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 8 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 9 responsible for that change? 10 : No. Whatever shift he was 11 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 13 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 14 way for us to know when that occurred? When 15 they actually moved him from one cell to 16 another cell? 17 : No. The only way you would 18 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 19 rewind and see. 20 MR. . To see, you know -- 21 Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- when that actually 23 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 24 working 25 : Right. EFTA00064292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 MR. -- from 7/29, and this happened on 7/30. There's no way, at this point? No. MR. Okay. No. MR. Co ahead. MR. Next level? MR. Sure. MR. : Cell searches. How often are they supposed to do cell searches in the SHU? You're taking me back-back. MR. : Yeah. : There is - I want to say they have to do a set amount. I don't know if it's three or five. It was five when I was an officer. Per shift. They should be random cell searches. MR. : Is it of the general area, or actual cells that they're supposed to be searching? MR. : Actual cell searches. : And is that five -? : With the exception of the midnight shift. They usually do the general 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 areas. MR. : But there should have been cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five times? Yes. MR. Per shift? Yes. MR. On day watch -- MR. Okay. MR. • -- and night watch? No. On day watch -- MR. Day watch and evening -- -- an evening watch. MR. -- watch. MR. All right. Well, evening. Evening watch, right? Yes. MR. So, if they're doing those, is it just as important to log those searches into the system? ME•es. : So, if there is no cell searches actually being logged into the system, on those dates is that a problem? Yes. MR. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 MR. Okay. And would you consider that like, a policy violation? MEI•es. MR. : If it's not logged into the system, is it almost as if they never happened? MR. MR. Yes. . Co ahead. : That's all I have. I know you looked into the monitor, the phone call that Epstein made the night before, on August 9th, right? And what is your understanding of what transpired? Like, how did he make that phone call? : My understanding is that his unit manager gave him the phone call. On an unsecured line. He placed Epstein in the shower area - that's what my understanding - and he plugged the phone into an unsecured line, andliiiiihim a phone call. MR. : And based on what we - based on the interviews - it looks like Epstein asked to speak to his mother. : Right. : And he asked for his pack and MR. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 pen (Phoniiiiiiiiii01:19:33) was not set up. MR. : Well, let's ask her. What iiiiiiiiiiderstanding of what happened? : That was my understanding, that he made a hone call to his mother. MR. : Have you learned anything since then? : No. Well, I did learn that his mother was deceased on the 10th. MR. : And do you know who he actuaiiiiiiiiii? : I don't. I don't. I actually was present when we did get the number, and it NYPD, guy called the number back, but I don't know who it was. MR. He actually dialed the phone? Mm-hmm. MR. To check to -? Rather than doing a search, he called the number that they -- I think he did a search. MR. • -- okay. : I think he did a search. And he called the number. EFTA00064293 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 MR. : From here? At the BOP? : No. I want to say he might have called from his phone he had. MR. : He had a cell phone? : Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to say he called from his phone. MR. Was this in your presence? : Yeah. It was. Yeah. I was there. MR. Did they bring their cell phones into the institution? : We had - we got approval for them to bring their phones in, because they was doing an investi ation. MR. Oh, okay. : Yes. MR. And do you know if someone answered when he called? : I want to say a female answered, but MR. : Okay. Did he identify himself? I can't remember. MR. : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 I can't remember. MR. : And is that the same person, thou 'h that -- MR. : You think? : Yeah. MR. : NYPD --- Yeah. MR. -- detective. Because - yes - it was only one NYPD at the time. MR. Okay. And it's Yeah. MR. Okay. I think it was MR. Okay. Great. Who did you say that actually provided him the phone call? MR. : His unit manager. And who was that? His name is MR. : And what is your understanding of what should have transpired if he gave him that phone call? How should have 115 1 that iiiiiiiiiirked? 2 : If he gave him a phone call, 3 it should have been on a secure line. Meaning, 4 the inmate's line. Because when it's on the 5 inmate line, you can listen to the phone call. 6 You know, go back. You can monitor it live. 7 And it should have been recorded in the logbook 8 that he received the phone call to the number 9 he receiviiiiiiiiiine call to. 10 MR. : And should have he sat 11 there with him, while the call was being 12 placed? 13 : Yes. 14 MR. • All right. And do you 15 know anything about there not being a logbook 16 in titaipi_f2r those telephone calls? 17 IIIIIIIIII: I know it was -. We were 18 looking for logbooks. I can't remember if that 19 book was one of them, to be honest with you, 20 because I collected so many. So, I can't 21 remember if that actual book was missing. 22 MR. Okay. And do you know if 23 actually did monitor the call, and log 24 it? 25 : I don't know. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. or not? 116 . You don't know if he did I don't know. MR. Okay. Do you know anything -? Did your investigation reveal anything that transpired during that call? No. I don't know. MR. No. So, you never found anythin never found anything more. MR. How serious of a violation do you consider it, if the inmate had - in this specific instance - both provided Epstein the phone call, and put him in the G- tier shower, walked away, and not only walked away, but left the unit? And the inmate could then talk by himself. Is that a pretty significant thing, or -? : It is. Because it was on a - again - it was on an unsecured line. So, you know, you can't get the recording back, even if you an emergency and you needed to step away for a minute, you know, you still can go and listen back to that phone call, to see if anything transpired. EFTA00064294 117 1 MR. : Sure. And why is it? Is 2 it, like, a potential danger to other inmates 3 in the facility, by being able to provide 4 inmates these unsecured phone calls? 5 : I would say yes. 6 MR. : So, it's a security 7 matter? 8 It's a security issue. 9 MR. And what is your 10 opinion on if, when says he's 11 calling his mother, and Mr. calls the 12 number that he gives him, which we don't have 13 the number for at the time, there's no list, 14 and a male answers the phone. And then, he 15 provides Epstein with that call. What is your 16 thoughts on that as an SIS lieutenant? 17 : Okay. Can I -? Just 18 rephrase it. He gave him the phone call, and a 19 male answiiiiiiiiiihone call. 20 MR. : So, Epstein says, I'm 21 calling my mother. This is the number. He 22 calls the number. Mr. says a male 23 answers the phone. And then provides the phone 24 to Epstein. 25 : At that point, I wouldn't 118 1 have provided the phone to Epstein. I would 2 have hung the call up. 3 MR. : Right. So, is that also 4 a prett bad security violation? 5 : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Should he have verified who 8 was on the hone? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Should he have asked for a 11 name? 12 Yes. 13 rI .: Was there a logbook, at that : 14 point in the SHU? 15 : I don't know. I don't know. 16 MR. : Is there something called 17 endogen (Phonetic Sp. *01:24:39) inmates? 18 Inmates. Now if -- 19 : Yes. 20 MR. -- can you -? 21 MR. : What does that mean? 22 MR. : Yeah. What does that mean? 23 : Endogen is inmates that, you 24 know, don't have any money on their accounts. 25 They don't have no type of resources. No type 119 1 of money coming in, through family members, or 2 anything to that effect. 3 MR. : Now, if an endogen inmate 4 wanted to make a phone call, what is the 5 procedure for that? 6 : I'm not too sure how unit 7 team deal with endogen inmate. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : I'm not too sure. 10 MR. : Is it - have you ever heard 11 the procedure that, if an inmate doesn't any 12 money in the pack and pen, they can't make any 13 phone calls, the unit team sometimes allows 14 them to make a phone call on the legal line? 15 : I've never heard of that. 16 MR. : Regardless, if an inmate 17 is speaking on the legal line, it's always 18 supposed to be -- 19 : A legal -- 20 . -- monitored? 21 -- a legal phone call. Yes. 22 MR. Where if it's in this 23 case, that an inmate that doesn't actually have 24 money, if they do allow it, they have to 25 monitor it. Correct? They have to sit there 120 1 and listen to it with them? 2 : They do, but they shouldn't 3 allow it because it's a legal line. 4 MR. : Okay. So, really, the 5 legal line is only supposed to be -- 6 ...Only for legal. 7 MR. : -- okay. So, not only 8 was this not done properly, they should have 9 never provided Epstein a call from the legal 10 line, is what ou're saying? 11 : Right. 12 MR. Okay. 13 MR. : Is there another line, or, 14 like, a pack and pen set up to utilize for 15 inmates that don't have any money, that want to 16 make calls? Like, you know how pack and pens 17 are asst ned to each inmate. Right? 18 : Yes. 19 MR. : Now, if it's an endogen 20 inmate, and they wanted to make a ph