DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00126954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00126955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 Today is September 23, 2021. The time 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office, and these are my 8 credentials. 9 MS. : I see. 10 MR. : This interview with the 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 13 right? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 17 of the Inspector General, DOJ investigation. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 21 York City. Also present is DOJ Senior Special 22 Agent. 23 MR. -: . And 24 these are my credentials. Thank you. 25 MR. : This interview will be EFTA00126956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent, 5 6 MR. : Senior Special Agent 7 8 MS. : I'm correctional lieutenant, 9 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 I1I-226/2. The form states, United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00126957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure, and security failure. 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 19 you understand -- 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- can you please sign where 22 it says employee name, signature? 23 MR. : Need a pen? 24 MS. : Thank you. 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. EFTA00126958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 2 *00:03:03). Thank you. 3 MS. : Okay. 4 MR. : Lieutenant , do you 5 understand the form? 6 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 7 MR. : And you are signing the form 8 also. 9 MS. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Thank you. 11 MS. : That's it. Do my name? 12 MR. : I'll fill out the 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- that part. 15 MS. : No problem. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 MS. : Thank you. 19 MR. : I can fill it out 20 anyways. 21 MR. : This is Agent . I' 22 signing on the signature of the Office of 23 Inspector General. 24 MR. : Thank you. And I am 25 going to sign as the witness and put my name. EFTA00126959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Thanks. 2 MR. : Before starting the 3 interview, I would like to place you under 4 oath. Lieutenant , can you please raise 5 your right hand? 6 MS. : Sure. 7 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 8 truth and nothing but the truth during this 9 interview? 10 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 11 MR. : Thank you. Please let me 12 know if you do not understand any questions, 13 and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for 14 you. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : What is your current home 17 address? 18 MS. 20 MR. 21 of birth? 22 MS. 23 MR. 24 number? 25 MS. Thank you. What is your date : What is your social security EFTA00126960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : Thank you. And what is your 2 current cell phone number? 3 MS. -: 4 MR. : What is your highest level of 5 education? 6 MS. : College. Bachelors. 7 MR. : Which college? 8 MS. : The College of New Rochelle. 9 MR. : And what was your -? That's 10 in New York? 11 MS. : It's upstate New Rochelle, 12 New York. Yes. 13 MR. : And what was your major in? 14 MS. : I was in psychology, though I 15 believe is liberal arts. 16 MR. : What did you do prior to 17 working for the BOP? 18 MS. : I worked for the New York 19 City Police Department as a school safety 20 agent. 21 MR. : And when did you start 22 working for the BOP? 23 MS. : When did I start? 24 MR. : Start. 25 MS. : May 18, 2003. EFTA00126961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : When did you graduate 2 college? 3 MS. : May of 2012. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Thank you. Do you have any 6 military service? 7 MS. : No, sir. 8 MR. : And you said in 2003, you 9 started with the BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : And when did you -? What was 12 the -? When did you first start? 13 MS. : MDC Brooklyn. 14 MR. : MDC Brooklyn? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : And you started as a C.O.? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. When did you graduate 19 from BOP training? 20 MR. : You don't remember the 21 answer? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It was probably shortly 24 after you started, correct? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00126962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Okay. And when did you 3 come to MCC? 4 MS. : I came to MCC January 31st, 5 2011. 6 MR. : And have you been here 7 since? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And have you been 10 in the SIS Shop since then? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I went into the SIS Shop in 14 2016. 15 MR. : 2016? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And then, in 2019, were 18 you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Great. 21 MR. : Okay. That's the basic 22 background we cover to -- 23 MR. : Yeah, no -- 24 MR. : -- on that. 25 MR. : -- you can go into the EFTA00126963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 questions. 2 MR. : So, what we're going to talk 3 to you today about is Mr. Are you aware of 4 who Jeffrey Epstein is? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And was he an inmate at the 7 MCC? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Were you familiar with him 10 while he was housed here at the MCC? 11 MS. : Yeah. I would say yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Let's start off. 13 Well, were you familiar with his first suicide 14 attempt? 15 MS. : Yes. I did the first 16 investigation on that one. Yes. 17 MR. : Did that approximately, did 18 that happen approximately around July 23rd, 19 2019? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Can you tell us what 22 happened? Based on your investigation and what 23 you found. 24 MS. : Based on my investigation, 25 once I found out about the suicide attempt when EFTA00126964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of 3 their sides of the story. 4 MR. : Was that Tartaglione? 5 MS. : Yes. Mr. Tartaglione. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D 8 area. He was a little hesitant, at first, 9 about speaking to me. He kept asking me who 10 was I? You know, what was I interviewing him 11 for? And I explained to him my position as the 12 SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are 13 met, and, you know, I questioned him about 14 whose the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, 15 I don't remember what happened. I remember him 16 telling me he went to get a drink of water, and 17 all he remembered is he was on the floor. And 18 the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide 19 much of anything else. 20 I did question him about Mr. Tartaglione. 21 You know, did you guys have any words with each 22 other? You know, we were just cellmates at the 23 time. You know, when you went to get the drink 24 of water, and he would -. Either he say he was 25 laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00126965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 8 floor. 9 MR. : Did you ask him if 10 Tartaglione attempted to harm him? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : And what did he say to 13 that? 14 MS. : And he said no. 15 MR. : And he said Tartaglione 16 did not -- 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : -- try to harm him? 19 MS. : He said he did not. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Was there a noose found 22 around his neck, at that point? Do you know? 23 MS. : I think it was. I think it 24 was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to 25 say, or something to that effect. They had EFTA00126966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 with you. 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 suicide? 8 MS. : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 Tartaglione is who alerted the officers, by 10 banging on the door. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 How did they find him, do you recall? 14 MS. : I can't recall. I know that 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 Tartaglione did not try to kill him. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 noose himself, or how the noose came about? 24 MS. : No. He didn't. 25 MR. : And what was your impression EFTA00126967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 2 tried to take his own life? 3 MS. : I kind of had mixed feelings 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 13 getting back from him. 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 15 Tartaglione didn't try to kill him? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, the only other option 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 19 commit suicide himself? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Or do you believe that 23 inmate Tartaglione attempted to harm him? 24 MS. : I don't. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00126968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I don't. 2 MR. : So, was it inconclusive? 3 MS. : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 MR. : What is your feeling of 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 investigator. 7 MS. : I don't know if it was, you 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 Tartaglione is telling me the truth. You know, 15 I really can't say what happened because you 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. Tartaglione, 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. : And was he placed on EFTA00126969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 suicide watch as a result? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 6 MS. : If that was the thought made 7 by the psychology department -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. they would definitely 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 12 suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 14 made that determination that he would be placed 15 on suicide watch? 16 MS. : I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : I don't know. 19 MR. : But it wasn't based upon 20 your investigation? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Was it actually your 23 investigation concluded, which actually brought 24 him off of suicide watch? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00126970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No? 2 MS. : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 general population, then they will release them 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 MS. : I don't think it did. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I don't think it did. 14 MR. : Inmate Tartaglione. Had he 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 MS. : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 for quite some time. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 MS. : Not violence. He was more of 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 MR. : Is -- 24 MS. : You know -- 25 MR. : -- is that why -- EFTA00126971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 MS. : -- something to that effect. 2 MR. : -- he was in the SHU? 3 MS. : I think that's why he was in 4 SHU at that time. 5 MR. : Do you recall how Tartaglione 6 got chosen to be Epstein's inmate? 7 MR. : Cellmate. 8 MR. : Cellmate. Sorry. 9 MS. : Oh. 10 MR. : Sorry. 11 MS. : Actually, I don't. I don't 12 know how they put the two of them together. 13 Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting 14 cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you 15 know, who do you think would be more suitable, 16 but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, I 17 don't know how they became cellmates. 18 MR. : You don't know if any 19 decisions were made by the higher ups, in 20 regards to him? 21 MS. : I don't know. 22 MR. : Okay. And after this 23 incident happened, was Tartaglione removed from 24 the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from 25 the cell? EFTA00126972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MS. : I'm not sure which one were 2 removed, or if they both was placed in 3 different cells, with different cellmates. I'm 4 not sure. 5 MR. : Well -. 6 MR. : Well, inmate Epstein was 7 actually placed on suicide watch. 8 MS. : Right. But I'm not sure if 9 Mr. Tartaglione remained in that same cell. 10 MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU 11 after that meeting with him? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Were there any issues with 14 him after that incident? 15 MS. : With? 16 MR. : With Tartaglione. 17 MS. : Not that I'm aware of. 18 MR. : Okay. And we asked about the 19 suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate 20 was - an incident like this happened, let's 21 skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. -- if an inmate was found 24 with a noose, and there was a possibility of a 25 suicide, what's the normal procedure that EFTA00126973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 3 MS. : If it was an incident where 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 14 suicide watch last? 15 MS. : It can vary. 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 18 MS. : Maybe a couple of days, but I 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 20 three. But maybe a couple of days. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00126974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Do you think that was too 2 early to remove him from suicide watch? I know 3 this is -. What is the difference between 4 psych op and suicide watch? 5 MS. : It's the same area. Psych 6 ops is, they just get their clothing back. But 7 they are still being watched. 8 MR. : It's the same thing, 9 right? 10 MS. : It's the same thing. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. : They're still being watched 13 by an inmate companion. 14 MR. : Is there any other benefit to 15 being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide 16 watch versus psych observation - any benefits 17 to being in psych ops? 18 MR. : Yeah. You have your 19 clothes. 20 MS. : You get your clothes. 21 MR. : Your clothes. 22 MS. : I mean -. 23 MR. : Was it - if it was any other 24 inmate - would they have given back his clothes 25 that fast? EFTA00126975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MS. : I don't know. That would be 2 the psychology department determination. 3 MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving 4 forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, 5 that he was removed from psych observation, and 6 he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall 7 hearing why he was removed from psych 8 observation -- 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : -- and placed back in the 11 SHU? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Do you have any questions? 14 MR. : Yeah. Just to go back, 15 file back to Nicholas Tartaglione. So, I knew 16 you - when asked - you said you weren't, you 17 knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of 18 a guy, but do you know of any instances where 19 he actually did harm another inmate? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : No? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Great. Thank you. 24 MR. : All right. Anything else on 25 the -? EFTA00126976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Nope. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You can go ahead. 4 MR. : Now, let's go to August 9th. 5 Were you working on August 9th, 2019? 6 MS. : I think I was off August 9th. 7 MR. : Okay. Let me just -. Would 8 you be -. Would your name be on the -? 9 MS. : On the roster? 10 MR. : On the roster. 11 MS. : Yeah. I would be on the 12 roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left 13 early August 9th. Or something. I can't 14 remember. 15 MR. : I'm going to provide you a 16 copy of August 9th -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- roster. MCC SHU roster. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : If you can take a look at it 21 and let me know if you were on schedule. 22 MS. : No. I'm not on it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : And who -- EFTA00126977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 2 MR. -- where would that be 3 listed? Sorry. 4 MR. : I thought you were going 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 7 just going back, before we talk about the 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 11 removed from psychological observation? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 15 trying to get him off of psychological 16 observation, so that they could continue with 17 their attorney/client visits? 18 MS. : No. I didn't hear. 19 MR. : You never heard that. 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 22 can move to the actual -. 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 25 MS. : Can I -. Actually -- EFTA00126978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Where -? 2 MS. : I would be under the SIS 3 Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU 4 Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS 5 Lieutenant. 6 MR. : And there is - on that 9th, 7 what does it state there? It says unassigned? 8 MS. : Unassigned. 9 MR. : So, no one was working that 10 day? 11 MS. : No. I was the only SIS 12 Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. 13 Nobody was in there that day. 14 MR. : Can you just circle that for 15 us? 16 MS. : Sure. 17 MR. : So, you were not here on 18 the 9th, is what you are saying? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : And no one was? 23 MS. : Not in the SIS Shop. 24 MR. : Oh, wow. Is that 25 abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone EFTA00126979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 being in SIS? 2 MS. : Actually, the SIS Technician, 3 her days off is Friday and Saturday. 4 MR. : Oh, wow. 5 MS. : And at the time, it was only 6 two of us working in the whole area. 7 MR. : So, there was only one 8 tech and lieutenant? 9 MS. : One tech and one lieutenant. 10 MR. : Would the SIA have been 11 on? 12 MS. : We didn't have one at the 13 time. 14 MR. : Oh, so it was literally 15 just the two of you? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, 18 then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was 19 working? 20 MS. : No. I normally -- 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 22 *00:19:28). 23 MS. -- on a Friday, I would have 24 been on because she would have been off. So, 25 took off -- EFTA00126980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:19:36). 2 MS. -- on Friday. I can't recall 3 why. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : But -. 6 MR. : And who was the SIS tech? 7 MS. : Her name is 8 (Phonetic Sp. *00:19:43). 9 MR. _: 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MR. : But she wasn't here? 13 MS. : No. She wasn't here. 14 MR. : And do you recall that 15 you actually - I know that the schedule says 16 that - but do you recall not being here? 17 Thinking that it was the day before. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Put this here just in case we 21 need to go back. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : When did you first become 24 aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate Reyes, 25 was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00126981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : The day of the actual 2 suicide. 3 MR. : When you say actual suicide, 4 which would be -- 5 MS. : August 10th. 6 MR. : -- August 10th. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Saturday, when you came in, 9 that's when you learned -? 10 MS. : When I came in. Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, 12 when you came in, what were you aware of why 13 Reyes was removed from the institution? 14 MS. : After speaking to him, they 15 told me he got released from court. That's 16 what I was told. 17 MR. : Who told you that he was -? 18 MS. : Not sure. 19 MR. : Not sure. Okay. 20 MS. : I can't remember. 21 MR. : So, your understanding was, 22 Reyes went to court and he just didn't come 23 back? 24 MS. : Right. That's what I 25 understand. EFTA00126982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : What's a normal procedure, 2 how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being 3 moved to court, or being transferred out? 4 MS. : From court, you're saying? 5 MR. : From court. Let's say -- 6 MS. : You're talking about court. 7 MR. : -- Reyes was -. 8 MR. : Well, no, in this case, 9 did you ever hear that Reyes actually never 10 went to court, he actually was transferred to 11 another institution? 12 MS. : No. I heard he went to 13 court. 14 MR. : So, even to this date -- 15 MS. : And was released from court. 16 MR. : -- to this date, did you 17 ever hear that, that he never went to court? 18 He actually was transferred? 19 MS. : No. I've never heard that. 20 MR. : Oh, you've never even 21 heard that? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because 24 that's what happened. He never went to court. 25 He was transferred. EFTA00126983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I still don't know. 2 MR. : That's what 3 (Indiscernible *00:21:24). 4 MS. : That's (Indiscernible 5 *00:21:26) right. I have -- 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : -- assumed that he went to 8 court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he 9 made bail or something -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. and he got released from 12 court. 13 MR. : But that's what everybody 14 was saying, that he actually went to court. 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, based on what we - our 18 investigation, I'll show you an email. This 19 email is dated -. This is from 20 (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:46), from the U.S. Marshal 21 Service. 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : And it went to, it looks like 24 the employees at the R&D. 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And it says, transfer of 2 inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. 3 This email was sent to them. If you take a 4 look at the title, the subject, it says, 5 "Transfer of inmates." 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : And it says, "Transfer of 8 prisoners from -- 9 MS. : I see it. 10 MR. : -- to GO. (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:22:10). 12 MS. : To GO. And inmate Efrain 13 Reyes is stated on this. So, he never -. It's 14 not that he went to court. He actually was 15 transferred to GO. Do you know what the 16 procedure is for something like that? If an 17 inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull 18 the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know 19 that the inmate needs to be pulled out? 20 MS. : Normally, R&D would get in 21 touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in 22 the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their 23 courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. 24 MR. : Is that known as a court 25 list? EFTA00126985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 MS. : A court list. 2 MR. : And that list comes over, and 3 they let the SHU officers know? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : So, they prepare them. And 6 on that - if that he was leaving - what would 7 it state on the -? Have you ever heard the 8 term, WAB? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : What does -- 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : WAB mean to you? 13 MS. : With All Belongings. 14 MR. : And what is your 15 understanding if it states that? 16 MS. : To me, With All Belongings 17 can mean anything. You know, where is he 18 going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? 19 MR. : But does it mean that he's 20 coming back? 21 MS. : To me, no. 22 MR. : And your understanding is, if 23 it says WAB, he's leaving for certain? 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Right. 2 MR. : And when, as an SIS, 3 would you get a copy of those court production 4 lists -- 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : -- or productions? No? 7 MS. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on 10 the top, do you ever Do you recall, after 11 this investigation started, after Epstein's 12 death, ever seeing that court list for that 13 day? 14 MS. : No. I've never seen it. 15 MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy 16 of it, do you know if there's any way we can 17 obtain a copy of that? 18 MS. : I would think it should be in 19 the Receiving and Discharge area. 20 MR. : And that's something that 21 they -- 22 MS. : The R&D. 23 MR. : -- if we asked, and based on 24 it, it said no one seems to have maintained a 25 copy of that. It looks like they've printed EFTA00126987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 off for the day, and then they disposed of it. 2 MS. : I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Was it kept, though, 5 under your investigation, for when you went in 6 on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, 7 part of, like, anything that you would have 8 collected? 9 MS. : Did I? I don't think I had 10 the court list. 11 MR. : No? 12 MS. : To be honest with you. I had 13 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 14 court list. 15 MR. : So, in the stuff -- 16 MS. : Oh. 17 MR. : -- that you did, on the 18 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into 19 it at all, Reyes leaving and Epstein not having 20 a cellmate? 21 MS. : I think I did. I think I did 22 run his SENTRY paperwork, once I got here, to 23 see where was Reyes. What happened with Reyes. 24 I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. 25 MR. : Okay. But you didn't -. EFTA00126988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that 2 court list, though? 3 MS. : I didn't have the court list. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : I don't recall having a court 6 list. No. 7 MR. : And so, do you - if R&D 8 doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is 9 any way that we could get our hands on one of 10 these court lists? 11 MS. : I don't know. I don't know, 12 in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their 13 functions. So, I don't even know if they were 14 able to - be able to go back. 15 MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. 16 They replace it every day. 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : Every (Indiscernible 19 *00:25:14), so no one 20 MS. : See, I don't -- 21 MR. : -- is going to maintain 22 in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other 23 email? 24 MR. : Which one? 25 MR. : The one that they sent EFTA00126989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was 2 being transferred. 3 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 4 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 5 print that one out. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 7 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshal 8 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 9 they still do this - but they would send out an 10 email the day before, which would be sent to, 11 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 12 other people, for people who, the following 13 day, are going to court or being transferred. 14 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 15 the Marshal Service? 16 MS. : I've probably seen it. 17 MR. : Okay. But you don't 18 really know what I'm talking about? 19 MS. : Oh, it -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. -- I would have to see it. 22 To be honest with you. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I'm going to take a step 25 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych EFTA00126990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you 2 recall that anyone from upper management, or 3 even psych, mentioning that he was required to 4 have a cellmate? 5 MS. : I didn't hear it, per se. 6 But normally, when they come off of suicide 7 watch, or a psych observation, they have to 8 have a cellmate. And psychology, usually 9 harbor on that. You know? They have to 10 MR. : Why is it 11 MS. -- have a cellmate. 12 MR. : -- why is it that they need a 13 cellmate? 14 MS. : I don't want to guess, but I 15 would say, even though, you know, an attempt 16 possibly was made, you want to prevent 17 something happening going forward. 18 MR. : And do you recall - but you 19 said you're not sure - but do you recall that 20 there was a requirement for Epstein to have a 21 cellmate? 22 MS. : Yes. I do recall them saying 23 he had to have a cellmate. 24 MR. : And that was by word of 25 mouth? EFTA00126991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : By word of mouth. 2 MR. : Do you recall who you heard 3 it from? 4 MS. : Let's see. I want to say Dr. 5 Miller, who is the psychologist. I want to say 6 Dr. Miller said that he has to have a cellmate. 7 MR. : So, she probably came down. 8 Do you recall if she told other people in the 9 SHU, in regards to that? 10 MS. : I don't know because I 11 wouldn't have been in the SHU. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MS. : Sorry. 14 MR. : The reason I ask is, now that 15 we know that Reyes is leaving the SHU, right? 16 And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes 17 down, and our understanding is, on that court 18 list, it states WAB -- 19 MS. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- and he's brought down to 21 R&D. And he's removed from the facility. 22 Whose responsibility would it have been, at 23 that point, to make sure that Epstein had a 24 cellmate? 25 MS. : I would say the supervisor. EFTA00126992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, 2 because he would know that he's leaving out of 3 the SHU. 4 MR. : And this is the August 9th 5 roster again. If you take -. 6 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant 7 was actually off -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- on the 9th, as well. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : So, if he is off, then 12 who would then become the next person -- 13 MS. : The next person -- 14 MR. -- moving up? 15 MS. would be the Operations 16 Lieutenant, should have been notified. 17 MR. : And who should have 18 notified the Operations Lieutenant? 19 MS. : Normally, the SHU staff would 20 say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, 21 Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. 22 MR. : And at what point -- 23 MS. : So, I'm sorry 24 MR. : -- should the 25 MS. cellmate. EFTA00126993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : That's fine. 2 MR. : At what point should the 3 SHU staff have notified the Operations 4 Lieutenant? 5 MS. : Immediately. 6 MR. : So, as soon as that 7 person is being -? 8 MS. : As soon as Mr. Reyes came out 9 that cell. 10 MR. : Okay. And is it one 11 person over another, within the SHU, that 12 should have told him? Or is it any one of 13 them? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Or all of them? 16 MS. : I would say any one. 17 MR. : Was there a person referred 18 to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during 19 that time? Like, one specific -- 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. -- person. 22 MS. : They do have, yes, the SHU 23 OIC, yes. 24 MR. : I know this roster shows SHU- 25 1, SHU-2, SHU-3. But -- EFTA00126994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- was there any specific 3 person, during that time period, who was 4 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 5 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 6 charge? 7 MS. : Yes. It would been the SHU 8 number one, which would be Officer 9 MR. _: . But what about, we 10 heard other people refer to as as, 11 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 12 been in there the longest, at that point. 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : He would be the OIC? 17 MS. : He was the OIC, probably for 18 the quarter, I would say, he was. 19 MR. : And why wouldn't he be 20 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 21 quarter? Do you know? 22 MS. : He could have been on his day 23 off. I don't know. 24 MR. : No, no. He was there. 25 And we heard that -- EFTA00126995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MS. : Oh, he was? 2 MR. : -- he's actually was the 3 OIC. But he's not listed as one. 4 MS. : Oh, I don't know. I didn't 5 even see him as the number three. I don't -. 6 I don't know. 7 MR. : But he should have been 8 listed as one, because he was the quarter 9 MS. : If that was his -- 10 MR. : -- post? 11 MS. -- if that was his post for 12 the quarter, he should have been listed as the 13 SHU number one. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Unless they did a switch, or 16 a mutual thing, or something to that effect. 17 MR. : And , at that point, 18 in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, as 19 the SHU OIC, from your recollection? 20 MS. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, the morning of, what 22 happened based on our investigation, is Epstein 23 and his cellmate, Reyes, were removed at the 24 same time. So, Officer came in. 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00126996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 MR. : With the court order. He 2 knew -- 3 MR. : Court list. 4 MR. : -- court list, and he knew 5 that Reyes was leaving. So, they packed up his 6 stuff in a little brown paper bag, and 7 retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they 8 both were transported on the elevator down 9 together. Epstein to attorney conference, and 10 Reyes out. 11 MS. : Okay. 12 MR. : And we know, in the elevator, 13 too, there was a conversation about Epstein 14 needing a cellmate. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : Now, being that 17 escorted him down, and down, he was in the 18 elevator, and was in the elevator, 19 knowing that Reyes is leaving, out of them two, 20 should either of them have made a notification 21 immediately? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Do you think they would have 24 known that it was important that they made the 25 notification? EFTA00126997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Why do you think that? 3 MS. : If you had a conversation 4 about him needing a cellmate, that means - to 5 me - you know that it was important for him to 6 have one. And you knew that his - obviously - 7 Mr. Reyes was leaving WAB. And Epstein needed 8 a cellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then 9 and there, the notification should have been 10 made. Even though he's in attorney conference, 11 but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we 12 need a cellmate for him. 13 MR. : Is there any reason for them 14 to believe that, even though it showed WAB, 15 that Reyes - that for them to believe that 16 Reyes would be coming back? 17 MS. : I would say no. If it says 18 WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that 19 he's not coming back. 20 MR. : Now, if, let's say they've 21 mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to 22 R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they're not 23 going to court, and sometimes they come back 24 up. How long does that process normally take? 25 MS. : It happens. Hmm. I've seen EFTA00126998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates 2 will come back up. 3 MR. : So, this is, they were 4 brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 5 8:30 a.m. 6 MS. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : So, when you say a couple 8 hours, we're talking about anywhere between 9 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? 10 MS. : Yeah. I've seen inmates come 11 up later. You know, an hour and a half, you 12 know, he didn't -. He's not leaving on a bus. 13 Once they get everybody on the bus, they will 14 go back up to Special Housing. 15 MR. : Now, if the inmate was not 16 brought back up to the SHU, let's say by even 17 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they're 18 expecting that there is a possibility that the 19 inmate might come back up, and it doesn't 20 happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a 21 notification? 22 MS. : They normally would. And 23 because they - I'm going to reach and say - 24 they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't 25 come back -- EFTA00126999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I should clarify that 2 MS. come by then. 3 MR. I mean, I meant 4 notification, should or anybody in the 5 SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the 6 superior, hey, listen - supervisors - hey, 7 listen, Reyes is gone, and Epstein is 8 MR. : And not 11:00. Just 9 during their shift. At some point, if they 10 left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a 11 notification, should have they known by 2:00 12 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming 13 back? 14 MS. : Absolutely. 15 MR. : Okay. So, at some point, 16 prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have 17 been made? 18 MS. : Yes. Yes. 19 MR. : And you mentioned that it 20 should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. 21 Lieutenant is not there. And it should 22 have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops 23 lieutenant during that shift? The morning 24 shift. 25 MS. : EFTA00127000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And he should have been 2 notified, and what should have 3 done? 4 MS. : He should have notified, of 5 course, his chain of command, which is the 6 captain, hey, Epstein's cellmate has left, and 7 he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would 8 have told psychology, you know, Epstein's 9 cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because 10 somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would 11 say, I guess, they would go back to that 12 process of seeing who was a good fit for him. 13 MR. : And if - what is your 14 understanding - if that notification was never 15 made up the chain of command? 16 MR. : What's your question? 17 MS. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What is your understanding, 19 if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, 20 in terms of -. I should clarify that. If that 21 notification never got -. If never 22 told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant 23 never told the captain, right? When was the 24 next time they would have caught onto the fact 25 Epstein needed a cellmate? EFTA00127001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 MS. : Again, I would say somewhere 2 between that shift, they should have made that 3 notification. If not, it would have went onto 4 the evening shift, that he still was without a 5 cellmate. 6 MR. : And you said that the inmate 7 was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a 8 cellmate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU 9 assigned somebody to be Epstein's cellmate? 10 MS. : Normally, in a case where 11 they try to get that good fit, they would talk 12 to the captain, who would have talked to 13 psychology, and they'll go through the SHU 14 roster to see who they think would be suitable 15 to put him in with. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 17 else on that? 18 MR. : Yes. So, when you go to 19 - you said the next shift - so, who -? So, 20 you're saying that, after left, and 21 his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU 22 should have, then, made the same notifications 23 up the chain of command? 24 MS. : If they're saying he didn't 25 have a cellmate. EFTA00127002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MR. : Okay. And then, would 2 that go on again to the morning watch? 3 Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 4 hours. So, every shift, should have they made 5 that notification up? 6 MS. : I would say yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And is it your 8 understanding that the operations lieutenant 9 actually has that same court list, that they 10 would have Headquarters, that would have shown 11 him as WAB? 12 MS. : The court list, yeah. 13 Usually, it's in the lieutenant's office, in 14 the mornings. 15 MR. : Okay. So, if says 16 that he actually knows that Reyes left, or 17 thought he went to court, and didn't know if he 18 wasn't going to come back, if he had that court 19 list, that said WAB, should have he referenced 20 that, or looked at it? 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : Yes? 23 MS. : Yes, sir. 24 MR. : Okay. So, is that a kind 25 of an excuse to say, for the operations EFTA00127003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 lieutenant, hey, I know Reyes left, but I 2 thought he was coming back, and he - or I 3 didn't know if he wasn't coming back - and he 4 did not pass that information onto the next ops 5 lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of 6 that matter? 7 MS. : My opinion of that is 8 definitely, you know, something is wrong, 9 because if you have the court list sitting in 10 front of you, it says WAB. And it means he 11 took all his belongings. You know, if it was 12 court, it would say court. 13 MR. : Okay. And do you know 14 how, do the operations lieutenants actually 15 look at that list? 16 MS. : I can't speak for -. 17 MR. : Are they supposed to? 18 MS. : I would say yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : Because you know who's moving 21 from the Special Housing. And some of the 22 inmates that move actually are lieutenant 23 moves, where you have to go up and get them. 24 So, you're going to look at the court list to 25 see who is moving. EFTA00127004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. : Okay. And then, as far 2 as Reyes. Did everyone know who Reyes was at 3 that time? Do you believe that, if, for 4 instance, someone like a , he sees 5 Reyes on the list, sees that he's WAB. Would 6 he know that's Epstein's cellmate? It says 7 he's from the SHU. He's WAB. Would he know 8 that that's Epstein's cellmate? Or do you 9 think that that notification would still need 10 to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to 11 kind of recognize that? 12 MS. : I can't even say he should 13 have known that that was his cellmate because 14 he's in a different area than the Special 15 Housing. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : So, sometimes, you wouldn't 18 know whose cell that up there, you know, up in 19 the Special Housing. 20 MR. : Okay. But if he says, 21 now, SHU didn't tell me, that I knew because 22 had the court list, and it says WAB, should 23 have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this 24 guy was gone, and he was not coming back? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00127005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : I can agree with that. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. What do 4 you think the -? Would that court list stay in 5 the operations, or the lieutenants office, 6 throughout the duration of the day, would the 7 next operation lieutenant that came on - which 8 I believe is - would that person have 9 also had that court list? 10 MS. : It normally stay in there for 11 the day. On a clipboard. It usually would be 12 on a clipboard in the lieutenant's office. So, 13 I don't -. I can't say that , you know, 14 looked at it, but it should have been there 15 when he came on. 16 MR. : Should have he looked at 17 it? 18 MS. : I could -. 19 MR. : And I'm asking you this 20 as the SIS lieutenant. We don't know the 21 answer to that. So, that's why we're asking 22 you. 23 MS. : A good lieutenant would. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MS. : Because you would know who is EFTA00127006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 not in your jail. 2 MR. : Right. As far as other 3 people that could have made this notification, 4 what would the unit teams' responsibility be 5 for if one of their people who was assigned to 6 SHU, left the institution? Should have they 7 been coordinating, or making any notifications? 8 MS. : I'm not sure what role they 9 play when the inmates leave the Special 10 housing, to be honest with you. 11 MR. : You don't? 12 MS. : Yeah. I don't know what role 13 they play. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : With their inmates. That's 16 an issue, as far as them leaving. 17 MR. : All right. So, for you, 18 though, you feel, like, the primary person that 19 would be responsible would be the person who 20 was actually with the inmate, who brought him 21 down, and knew that he was leaving? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : So, in this case, 24 should have made the 25 notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is EFTA00127007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that what you would say? 2 MS. : I would say him and whatever 3 other officer did the escort with him. 4 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 5 MS. : Because they know the SHU 6 inmates. 7 MR. : Right. Okay. 8 MR. : What about the officers in 9 the SHU, at that point? Let's say there was 10 how many officers that you mentioned? - 11 and who else were in the SHU? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : In the morning shift. 14 MS. 15 MR. 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Should they have -. Would 18 they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? 19 MS. : Yes. If they're working up - 20 yeah - I would say yes. 21 MR. : And let's say, during this 22 shift, should they have understood - I know he 23 asked already - should they have understood the 24 fact that, hey, Epstein needed a cellmate 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00127008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- could they have made 2 notification? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : And who came to the SHU after 5 that? 6 MS. -: . Ms. 7 Davis. 8 MR. : And during this shift, should 9 they have known also? Should they have made 10 notification? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Anything else on that? 13 MR. : And they would have 14 known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? 15 MS. : From doing their rounds. 16 MR. : And if they were -- 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : -- doing rounds, they 19 would know there's no one in that cell? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, we can go into the 23 rounds? 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : And the counts. So, based on EFTA00127009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 our - based on what we - in our investigation, 2 we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 3 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. 4 MS. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., 6 and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. 7 MS. : Right. 8 MR. : And if the counts were done, 9 as Agent Dennis just asked, if the counts were 10 done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that 11 Reyes was not there, and Epstein needed a 12 cellmate? 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : What about at 10:00 p.m.? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : All right. And the reason 17 that we were able to determine it, is also 18 because of the fact that inmate Fernandez was 19 removed from the SHU by He was 20 actually in the SHU visiting room, and there 21 was an incident where witnessed him 22 possibly having contraband, so he removed him. 23 He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a 24 dry cell in R&D. 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00127010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : Except he was not keyed out. 2 This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after 3 -. Except he was not keyed until after 4 midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed 5 from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry 6 cell, who should have -? Who had the 7 responsibility to key him out, at that point? 8 off the SHU and place him in R&D? 9 MS. : It would have been the counts 10 and assignment, to walk those in. 11 MR. : That's a CNA? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : I see. Counts and 14 assignment. And how would CNA have known that 15 he got moved? 16 MS. : Well, normally, they would 17 make a notification, I would say, when he got 18 to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in 19 the dry cell. 20 MR. : So, R&D should have notified 21 counts and assignments? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Was there any responsibility 24 for the officer who removed him from the SHU, 25 and brought him down? EFTA00127011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : He could have, as well. 2 Because you brought him down. And he's coming 3 off of the SHU base count. 4 MR. : What is -? He's coming off 5 the count -- 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : -- so, at 4:00 p.m., the 8 count should have been adjusted on the El, and 9 also -- 10 MS. : Absolutely. 11 MR. -- okay. Have you ever heard 12 of inmates pre-filling the rounds and count 13 sheets? 14 MS. : Inmates? 15 MR. : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I 16 apologize. Have you ever heard of the C.O.s 17 pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? When, 18 let's just say the rounds there abouts 19 (Indiscernible *00:43:25) of their shift. 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Right? And they go in, they 22 have their round sheet. They expect to do the 23 rounds during the certain times, so they go in 24 and they fill it out for the whole shift. And 25 they try to do it during those times that they EFTA00127012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 filled out. 2 MS. : I've never seen it, to be 3 honest with you. I've never seen that. 4 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 5 doing that? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Has there ever been any 8 incidents in MCC regarding C.O.s pre-filling -? 9 MS. : Not that I know of. 10 MR. : What about the count sheets? 11 Would they start the shift, they already know 12 what count is supposed to be there? 13 MS. : I've seen that. 14 MR. : And what have you seen? 15 MS. : Well, my experience being a 16 lieutenant, and being in the control center, 17 taking the count, I have seen count slips come 18 down to the control center, and I'm monitoring 19 the camera because I'm physically watching you 20 count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I 21 haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, 22 and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I 23 have your count sheet and you haven't counted 24 yet? 25 MR. : Is that normal procedure as a EFTA00127013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from 2 the control room, you pay attention to the 3 monitor, and you watch -? 4 MS. : I could only speak for 5 myself. 6 MR. : So, as your practice. 7 MS. : I do. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : And you watch the C.O.s to 11 make sure that they're doing the counts. 12 MS. : Absolutely. 13 MR. : Which C.O.s have you seen 14 that haven't done that? That haven't done the 15 counts, but send their count slips in. 16 MS. : Pfft. I can't give you exact 17 names because I've been on all of the shifts. 18 MR. : And what happens if, in a 19 situation like that, if you see that, that they 20 didn't do the count, but they send the slip 21 down? What do you do? 22 MS. : I'm pulling. I'm doing a 23 verbal counseling. 24 MR. : Verbal counseling. 25 MS. : Yes. I'm doing a verbal EFTA00127014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 counseling. Basically, listen, don't send me 2 your count slip until you do your count. Next 3 time, I'm going to go to the next step, which 4 is discipline. 5 MR. : And have you ever told them 6 to go back and count? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And they followed it? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : What is a lieutenant round? 11 You understand it, you just mentioned that, 12 when you do a count -- 13 MR. : In the SHU. What is a 14 lieutenant round in the SHU? 15 MR. : -- yeah. 16 MS. : In the SHU, with the 17 lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as 18 every other area, you see if there's anything 19 abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to 20 ask a question. You know, anything we should 21 know about, anything you got going on up there. 22 You're just making sure that the officers are 23 doing their job for the shift, the inmates are 24 getting their phone calls, if there's any 25 inmates that haven't been showered, who may EFTA00127015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 shower. You're making sure those are done. 2 Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have 3 inmates calling you, once you get there. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MS. : Once the door open. So, 6 you're going on the ranges and seeing what's 7 going on with the inmates on the ranges. 8 MR. : Now, are you supposed to 9 go from door to door, when your lieutenant does 10 a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to 11 do a round just as, like, a C.O. that's working 12 the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check 13 and see -- 14 MS. : To be honest -- 15 MR. : -- what's going on? 16 MS. : I don't think there's 17 nothing in policy stating that we have to go 18 door to door, and see each inmate, but you - 19 most of the time - you will go on a range, I 20 would assume, because you want to see what's 21 going on. With the inmates. Especially since 22 it's the Special Housing. 23 MR. : So, this is where we get 24 a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the 25 lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door EFTA00127016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 to door, and that's what a round is. Select 2 few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, 3 no, that's not -. It's your discretion, if you 4 do that or not. So, are you kind of more of 5 that, that kind of side of it, it's their 6 discretion? 7 MS. : I'm more of 8 MR. : Because they have to sign 9 when they - is it correct - that they have to 10 sign the round sheet -- 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : -- saying they did a 13 round? 14 MS. : So, normally, like myself, I 15 would be on the range, because the round sheets 16 are on the range. So, you have to go on the 17 range to sign the round sheets. 18 MR. : But do you have - but 19 just to go on the range, I guess you don't 20 necessarily have to look in -- 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : -- their window. 23 Correct? 24 MS. : Right. But if you go on, 25 you're going to look door to door. I would EFTA00127017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 think. 2 MR. : But this time, our 3 understanding is the round sheets were actually 4 kept on the officer's desks. On the desk out - 5 So, not on the range. They all did it right 6 from where the desk was. Do you know if that's 7 the case? 8 MS. : I don't. I don't know. This 9 is the first I'm hearing of it. Because 10 normally, they're at the end of the range. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MS. : On the wall. So, that's 13 going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on 14 each range because you have to go to the end of 15 the range to sign. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 17 there is maybe MCC didn't have this practice, 18 but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant 19 round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the 20 lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, 21 saying that they conducted the round in the 22 SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that 23 they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, 24 and that's the reason why they put these sheets 25 at the end of the ranges? EFTA00127018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 MS. : I don't recall if that's what 2 the policy says. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : And just as far as 6 clarification, do you know if BOP policy states 7 where the count sheets, or the round sheets are 8 supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you 9 have to look at it, but does it state that it 10 should be either kept on the officer's desk, or 11 at the end of the -? 12 MS. : I've never seen 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : -- yeah. I've never seen 15 that policy where it should be kept that. 16 MR. : Okay. That's just practice? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 19 on the rounds and counts? 20 MR. : No. I guess I just, do 21 you think if the lieutenants that did the 22 rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any 23 exposure to the fact that Reyes was gone, and 24 should have they - when they did their rounds - 25 should have they known that, hey, this cell is EFTA00127019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 empty, Epstein's down at attorney conference, 2 and Reyes isn't here, so there's no one in that 3 cell. Should have they been, you know, should 4 have they known -? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : If you knew that on the count 8 slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he 9 was WAB, and you see Epstein downstairs, then 10 if you're paying attention, you would just -. 11 That's something you would have asked. Hey, we 12 got a cellmate for him yet? Who he's going 13 with. That type of thing. 14 MR. : Okay. So, those 15 lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in 16 the SHU, on that date, then they do have some 17 fault in this, that Reyes was never replaced? 18 MS. : I'm going to say yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Anything else on rounds and 21 counts? I'm moving onto cameras. 22 MR. : Perfect. 23 MR. : Okay. When did you learn 24 that the cameras were not working at the MCC? 25 MS. : August 8th. EFTA00127020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : August 8th. Okay. MS. : Yes. MR. • transpired? MS. • Can you tell us what : I actually was reviewing the cameras from the SIS office, with one of the associate wardens. inmate, to see what cadre (Phonetic Sp. looking to see what We were looking for an time he was released, a *00:50:30) inmate. We time he was released were because I was trying to backtrack, because I was going to interview the inmate, with an OIG officer, about an incident. And I learned, he's gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his release date - which, he was scheduled to be released - so, that made me go back to look to see, well, let me see what time they released him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he got released, so we could get in touch with that halfway house. So, we - myself and the agent - was going to go to the halfway house, to interview him. And upon me going back to the cameras, I said, wait a minute, we don't have no cameras. I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on EFTA00127021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 several cameras, just to see if I could play it 2 back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras 3 are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. 4 At that time, I called the communications shop, 5 and told them, I don't have no cameras up here. 6 You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A 7 gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm 8 going to come and check the camera system, 9 which he has the keys for, as well. And he did 10 check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is 11 not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going 12 to do overtime or something to that effect. To 13 fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the 14 captain. 15 MR. : Oh, you notified the 16 captain? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : That the cameras wer= 19 down? 20 MS. : That the cameras was down. 21 And I wrote a memo - a memorandum - as well. 22 MR. : Oh, if you have that, can 23 you please give it to us? 24 MS. : It's - I can't get in my home 25 drive - it would be on my home drive. EFTA00127022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 MR. : And when will you be able 2 to get access to that? 3 MS. : I'm out of work. So, I can't 4 access it. 5 MR. : Oh, we have heard that 6 you were back this week. Is that not the case? 7 MS. : No. 8 MR. : Oh. 9 MS. : I'm not back this week. I 10 only came for the interview. I won't be back 11 for maybe, like, another two to three weeks. 12 MR. : When you come back in two 13 or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an 14 email, just as far as, like -- 15 MS. : I was going to say. If you 16 email me where to send it to, yes. 17 MR. : Fantastic. 18 MS. : So, at that point, I did type 19 the memo that the cameras was done. 20 MR. : This is on the 8th? 21 MS. : On the 8th. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : Yes. And I assumed that the 24 gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras 25 that day. EFTA00127023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 MR. : So, and when you say "the 2 gentleman," are you talking about 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 5 person who came in and checked? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Is it true that he can 8 only obtain access to the camera room, if an 9 SIS employee actually lets him in? 10 MS. : Absolutely not. He has the 11 keys. 12 MR. : At that time, he did? 13 MS. : The first door, which is the 14 steel door with the (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:53:21), I have to let him into that. 16 MR. : That's what I mean. So, 17 he can't actually get -- 18 MS. : Right. 19 MR. in to the SIS -- 20 MS. : Unless I -- 21 MR. : -- area 22 MS. : -- let him into that part. 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : So, he had told you, on EFTA00127024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix 2 it? 3 MS. : And do overtime to fix it. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : Because I let him into the 6 office, so he can go see what I was telling 7 him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. 8 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 9 that's the first time it was noticed, that 10 those cameras were down? 11 MS. : I can't say that that was the 12 first time that was noticed. 13 MR. : Because our investigation 14 shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those 15 cameras stopped recording. So, there is about 16 half of the cameras in the institution that 17 were recording, and half that weren't. They 18 were all live monitoring. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : But did you find anything 21 about that, or do you know anything about that? 22 MS. : No. No. It's not until I 23 was actually in the phone room, with the 24 agents, going through the cameras, that we 25 realized that they stopped recording. EFTA00127025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 MR. : Oh, so, you knew this on 2 the 10th or something, you 3 MS. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- realized this -- 5 MS. : Yeah. It was -- 6 MR. : -- after the 7 investigation? 8 MS. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : So, you had heard, later, 10 that at 7/29 -- 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : -- is when -? Okay. 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : So, you know that now, is 15 what you mean by -- 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- between 7/29 and 18 August 8th -- 19 MS. : The 10th. 20 MR. : -- you never -? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : So, the 8th was the first 25 time you found out? EFTA00127026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Do you remember if, prior 3 to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, 4 trying to rewind and watch? Because I would 5 think that's something you do kind of 6 regularly. 7 MS. : I can't remember if it was 8 myself, or the SIS tech to be honest with 9 you, because normally, if it's an incident and 10 I need some video footage, I'll ask her to pull 11 the footage for me. You know? So, I can see 12 it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident 13 where we need to pull any camera footage. 14 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 15 remember if there was footage before that. 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : Was there a tech III, or 18 Tate, or something like that? 19 MS. : Phone monitor. 20 MR. : He was on -- 21 MS. : Yeah. III was the phone 22 monitor, which is a regular correctional 23 officers. 24 MR. : Oh, so, he's not an SIS 25 tech? EFTA00127027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. 2 MR. : All right. But would he 3 work in the SIS room? 4 MS. : In the phone room. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : He would be assigned, for the 7 quarter, to the phone room. 8 MR. : That's in the SIS office? 9 MS. : It's not in my office, but 10 it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It's kind 11 of, like, next door to SIS. 12 MR. : Is that the room where 13 the camera servers are located? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. So, does he also 16 need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able 17 to do phone monitors? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : How does he get in and 20 out? 21 MS. : He has the phone monitor 22 keys, half the keyring for him to get into the 23 door. 24 MR. : To get into -- 25 MS. : I'm sorry. The key. EFTA00127028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 MR. : -- the primary SIS area? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So, do you know if 4 he was working on the 9th? 5 MS. : I don't know if he was 6 working because he hadn't been in the phone 7 room for some -- 8 MR. : Would he be listed on the 9 -? 10 MS. : -- let me look. Because they 11 were actually pulling him every day, re- 12 assigning him to different posts. So, he is 13 working, but they re-assigned him to another 14 post. 15 MR. : Okay. So, he wasn't - on 16 the 9th - he wasn't actually working? 17 MS. : If you see three Sally, 18 you'll see him there. 19 MR. : And would that be because 20 there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow 21 him into that room? 22 MS. : No. It would be because they 23 were short-staffed. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : And they just re-assigned him EFTA00127029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to another post. 2 MR. : Okay. So, if says 3 that he wasn't able to fix the cameras on the 4 8th because he didn't have the proper 5 equipment, and then he couldn't gain access on 6 the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn't able 7 to get in on the 9th because neither you or the 8 tech were here. 9 MS. : He would be able to get in 10 because my keys don't go home with me. He 11 would have just had to ask the captain for 12 access to the SIS keys, and he would have been 13 able to go into the office. 14 MR. : And like you said, the 15 captain actually knew that the cameras were 16 down? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : And you are positive of 19 that? 20 MS. : I'm positive. 21 MR. : Did you have a verbal 22 conversation with him about it? 23 MS. : I had a verbal conversation. 24 MR. : And can you recall what 25 that conversation entailed? EFTA00127030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 MS. : I remember stepping to his 2 office, which was right next door to mine, and 3 4 5 6 7 8 notifying him that the cameras was down, that I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, and I can't. Actually, I had one of the associate wardens with me, as well. Who happens to be his supervisor, so. MR. : Who was that? 9 MS. : Associate Warden . 10 MR. •. was there? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : It was me and her together, 14 looking at the cameras. 15 16 MR. : Okay. So, and it wasn't it was actually 17 MS. : No. It was me and AW 18 19 MR. : And that was with Captain 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. So then, the two 22 of them knew that the cameras were down? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : All right. And do you 25 know if they had any conversations with EFTA00127031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 about a need to get them back up? 2 MS. : I don't know if they had a 3 separate conversation, but when I called Mr. 4 over to radio, Ms. was still 5 standing there with me in the office. And she 6 was there with me when he came up to check, 7 because we thought it was something that maybe 8 he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the 9 camera, and look for what we were looking for. 10 MR. : And when he mentioned the 11 whole I'll stay overtime, was she there when - 12 was there - when he mentioned that he 13 would stay to work overtime? 14 MS. : I can't remember because I 15 know he had to get in touch with his boss 16 first. 17 MR. : Oh, okay. So -- 18 MS. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- so, told u5 20 that he was approved to work overtime on 21 Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do 22 you know who he would have contacted, in order 23 to get that approval to work overtime? 24 MS. : I don't know. I would assume 25 his boss, which was Mr. (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00127032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 *00:58:47). 2 MR. : Now, is out, and he 3 has acting in his life, (Phonetic 4 Sp. *00:58:53), and and 5 both say, he didn't talk to me about working 6 overtime. Is there anyone else that he would 7 have been -? Well, because you said that he 8 told you he was going to work overtime. 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : Would you be an approving 11 official for that? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Would be an 14 approving official, though? 15 MS. : I'm not sure if she was over 16 facilities, that department. So, I'm - no - 17 I'm not sure. 18 MR. : Okay. So, how did he 19 know he would be able to work overtime to fix 20 it? 21 MS. : I don't know. 22 MR. : You don't know? He just 23 said I'll work overtime. 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. So, I'm assuming EFTA00127033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 2 8th, that you learned of this incident, since 3 his shift typically ends at 2:00 p.m.? 4 MS. : Yeah. It was a little after 5 1:00 p.m. 6 MR. : Okay. And that was the 7 8th. But again, on the 8th was the first that 8 you found out the cameras -- 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- were down? Do you 11 know if there is anyway anyone could have 12 tampered with that system, to intentionally 13 take the cameras offline? 14 MS. : I don't know. I don't know 15 because nobody normally goes into - with the 16 service bar - besides him. Or there's one more 17 communication tech, Mr. 18 MR. : Was he there, though, at 19 the time? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : So -- 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : -- it was just - at the 24 time - it was only . Correct? 25 MS. : Yes. It was just EFTA00127034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 MR. : So, who would have had 2 access to that server rom? Now, in the MCC as 3 a whole, who could have had access to that 4 server room, and would potentially taken it 5 offline? 6 MS. : I don't know who would 7 intentionally take it off, but I can tell you 8 the access would have been us, from the SIS 9 shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. 10 and Mr. And I'm not sure if their key 11 if that key is on, in the other key ring. 12 MR. : So, is it really only the 13 two of you, then, with SIS, then also the phone 14 monitor individual, III. Is it III or Tate? 15 MS. : 16 MR. : Is that 17 MS. -: 18 MR. : Just 19 MS. : I don't think Mr. III had the 20 key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my 21 ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in 22 there, as well. So, I would always lock the 23 door back, because we don't allow an officer to 24 just walk where the server is at. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00127035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : So -. 2 MR. : So, the server, actually, 3 was in a locked door? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : So, really, III didn't 6 have access to it? 7 MS. : Right. 8 MR. : But the tech would have? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Yes. She would. 12 MR. : So, yourself, the tech, 13 and 14 MS. -. . . 15 MR. : -- were really the only 16 three people? 17 MS. : Mr. 18 MR. : Well, wasn't here 19 at the time, though. Correct? 20 MS. : Probably Mr. . I think 21 it's on his key ring. 22 MR. : But - but just to clear 23 that up - was not -- 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : wasn't here at EFTA00127036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the time, though? 2 MS. : Okay. 3 MR. : Is that right? 4 MS. : I -- 5 MR. : Oh, you don't know? 6 MS. I really don't know. 7 MR. : Oh, okay. No. That's 8 why I was asking you. 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : My understanding 11 MS. : I don't know. 12 MR. : -- was that was 13 the only tech at the time. 14 MS. : Okay. I don't know if 15 was in the building, but I know is who 16 dealt with at the time. 17 MR. : Okay. And then, 18 would have? 19 MS. : I think it may be on Mr. 20 key because he's the facilities manager. 21 But again, I'm not sure what keys they have. 22 MR. : What about the captain? 23 MS. : I don't know. 24 MR. : Now, when you -- 25 MS. : I don't know what's on his EFTA00127037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 keyrings. 2 MR. : -- now, you say you don't 3 ever leave the institution with these keys, did 4 you give them to the captain, or where are the 5 keys? 6 MS. : No. They're located in the 7 control center, behind a locked box. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : So, I have to give them the 10 key to open my locked box in order for me to 11 retrieve my SIS keys. 12 MR. : Okay. And then, does 13 anybody else have that key, to open your locked 14 box, to get those keys? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : What are -? You said the 17 captain does, though? I thought you said he 18 could have gone to the captain to get the keys. 19 MR. : He can't get into my 20 locked box. He nas his own locked box. 21 MR. : So, how would -. I think 22 you -. I though you said that the captain 23 could have allowed to get in -? 24 MS. : He would have had them 25 allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. EFTA00127038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 MR. : They would have had to -- 2 MS. : If it was another -- 3 MR. : -- actually break it? 4 MS. : -- they would have to 5 actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, 6 all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if 7 it's an emergency, you would have to break the 8 glass to retrieve our keys. 9 MR. : And in this case, you 10 believe that would be an emergency, that they 11 were to break the glass to fix the cameras on 12 the 9th? 13 MS. : Normally, yes. 14 MR. : So, you think that that 15 would have been appropriate action, to break 16 it? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. And then, the 19 captain does not actually have a key to get 20 into the SIS office, though? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Does anyone else? 23 or -? 24 MS. : No. I think it's only on the 25 SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we EFTA00127039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 didn't have one at the time. 2 MR. : Okay. But you're certain 3 that and on the 8th, were aware 4 that there was a camera issue, and not 5 recording? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Do you know if they 8 notified the warden? 9 MS. : I don't recall. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Because I notified the 12 warden. And he seemed a little -- 13 MR. : Notified the warden when? 14 MS. on the 10th. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : On the 10th. Once I came in, 17 once the incident happened. And me and him was 18 having a conversation, and he was saying, and 19 there's no cameras working, and I said, what do 20 you mean there's no cameras working? I said, 21 was supposed to fix the cameras on the 22 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, 23 what are you talking about? And I said, the 24 cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I 25 notified that the cameras was down. And EFTA00127040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 I said, I wrote a memo. 2 MR. : And what happened with 3 your memo? Who gets that memo? 4 MS. : My memo, I usually give it to 5 the captain. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 7 in this case, did you give it to the captain? 8 MS. : I did give it to him. I 9 might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I 10 would have to look at my email. I might have 11 emailed it, as well. 12 MR. : And would have you -? 13 MS. : And I might have emailed it 14 to Again, I can't remember 15 MR. : Can you -- 16 MS. exactly who I sent it to. 17 MR. : -- you know, when you 18 come in, can you check your sent box, and see 19 if on the - you would have done this on the 20 8th, though? 21 MS. : It would have been on the 22 8th. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Yes, 25 MR. : So, you would have - it EFTA00127041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to 2 him? 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And emailed, or both? Or 5 I mean, one or the other? 6 MS. : Normally, because he's next 7 door, I would hand deliver him stuff. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : To be honest. And sometime, 10 I would email it to him if his door is closed, 11 and I don't see him. Or don't know if I'm 12 going to see him before I leave. 13 MR. : Okay. But you are 14 positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, 15 one way or the other? 16 MS. : Yeah. I'm almost - though, 17 I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I 18 know I verbally told him that the cameras was 19 down. 20 MR. : Are you 100 percent sure 21 that there was a memo, though? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : But you may - when you 24 say you're not 100 percent sure - when else 25 would have you potentially done that memo? EFTA00127042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 MS. : No. I did the memo on the 2 8th. 3 MR. : Oh. So, that's where, 4 when you say you're not 100 percent sure 5 MS. : If I -- 6 MR. : -- right, you're not -- 7 MS. emailed it to him, I'm 8 saying to you. 9 MR. : -- but you're 100 percent 10 sure you provided it to him? 11 MS. : Yes. And I notified him, 12 word of mouth, that the cameras was down. 13 MR. : Okay, and that - sorry - 14 that's where I just want to make sure I'm 15 clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you 16 gave him that memo. You just don't know if you 17 gave it to him, either by hand -- 18 MS. : Or email. 19 MR. : -- or email. 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : But it's definitely, he 24 got it? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00127043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Perfect. Okay. But 2 regardless, both and knew -- 3 MS. : That the cameras -- 4 MR. : -- verbally, and 5 knew specifically, because she was 6 MS. : Because she was with me. 7 MR. : -- involved. 8 MS. : Right. She was with me. 9 Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And was she 11 involved, at all, with those discussions with 12 13 MS. : I can't remember if she 14 stayed with me. I think she walked away. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Because we couldn't get what 17 we needed, as far as footage. 18 MR. : Were they both under the 19 impression that was actually working on 20 the camera system? 21 MS. : Hmm. 22 MR. : Like, did they ask, well, 23 are you going to take care of this, or anything 24 like that? 25 MS. : No. I don't remember them EFTA00127044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 speaking to I just know -- 2 MR. : No. When you verbally 3 spoke with , though, and about the 4 situation, did you say, I notified , he 5 said he'll take care of it, or anything like 6 that? 7 MS. : Yes. Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. So, you did tell 9 them that, that he would be fixing it. 10 MS. : Yeah. Well, she was on the 11 phone -. She was standing next to me when I 12 was on the phone, talking to Mr. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : What about the captain, 16 though? Did he know? 17 MS. : No. He wasn't near me. 18 MR. : Did he ask, like, is 19 going to fix it, or anything like that? 20 MS. : No. He didn't -- 21 MR. : Did he say anything? 22 Well, what -- 23 MS. : -- he didn't ask. 24 MR. : -- what was his response 25 to you telling him that the cameras were down? EFTA00127045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MS. : He asked me, did I notify 2 them, and I said, yes. 3 MR. : That was my question. 4 I'm sorry. 5 MS. : Okay. 6 MR. : So -- 7 MS. : I apologize. 8 MR. : -- so, he did know that 9 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- was notified? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 14 MR. : Was the captain surprised the 15 cameras were down? 16 MS. : I don't know if he was 17 surprised because it's not, like, it's not 18 normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? 19 It's our job to notify who we need to notify to 20 bring them back up. But 21 MR. : Do you recall his reaction? 22 Like, did he state, oh, yeah, it must be fixed 23 today? Make sure takes care of it. 24 What was his exact reaction to that 25 notification? EFTA00127046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I can't recall. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : I can't recall. 4 MR. : And did ever come 5 back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that 6 day, on the 8th? 7 MS. : No. He told me that on the 8 10th. 9 MR. : What did he tell you on 10 the 10th? 11 MS. : Once I walked into the 12 Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. 13 I don't know if he was working that day. But 14 he was there, and when the door opened, you 15 know, my response was, well, what happened to 16 the cameras? And he said, oh, that's what I'm 17 here for today. Which was two days later. I'm 18 here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled 19 him, and put him on the post, or something to 20 that effect. And I said, but you told me you 21 was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, 22 like, I couldn't fix them on the 8th. I can't 23 remember why he said he couldn't. But I think 24 he responded to me before I could even ask the 25 question, once he saw me because I was a little EFTA00127047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 taken back that the cameras were down. Because 2 I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 3 8th. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Can I ask you, when you guys 6 were - you and AW - were reviewing 7 footage, and you realized it wasn't working, 8 you called What was reaction 9 to finding out the cameras were not working? 10 MS. : He said he was going to come 11 down and take a look at it. 12 MR. : Did he mention it was an 13 ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware 14 of it, or was that the first he was hearing 15 about it? Do you recall? 16 MS. : No. He didn't -- 17 MR. : No? 18 MS. -- he didn't say. He just 19 said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at 20 it. 21 MR. : And then, he came down, both 22 of you guys were in the room, and he tried to - 23 24 MS. : No. I wasn't in there with 25 him. I just opened the door so he could get EFTA00127048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 in. And he went in, and he came back, and he 2 said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made 3 a phone call, or he walked away one, and he 4 said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, 5 tonight. 6 MR. : And he did specifically 7 say "tonight"? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And if he did stay, stay 11 overtime, that would be on his webTA? 12 MR. : Well -- 13 MS. : It should be. 14 MR. : It should be. 15 MR. : -- well, no, we know he 16 didn't. But -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- as far as, if both you 20 and the other SIS tech left, would he have been 21 able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the 22 camera room, to be able to work on it? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : Yes. Because it's been times EFTA00127049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go 2 home. And the captain would say, okay, well, 3 leave your keys with me, you know, so he could 4 have access. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : To the room. 7 MR. : So, when you left that 8 day, did you check back in with at all, 9 to say, like 10 MS. : I sure didn't. 11 MR. : -- hey. You did not? 12 MS. : I didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. And do you know 14 what he did after you told him I'm going to 15 take care of? Do you know what he did? 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : No. Did he stay in the 18 room, though? Did he -? 19 MS. : No. He left out the room. 20 He left out the room. 21 MR. : All right. And then, did 22 you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? 23 MS. : I would have left probably 24 after her, because she leaves at 2:00. 25 MR. : Uh-huh. What time? EFTA00127050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I can't remember what 2 happened that day. 3 MR. : And what -? 4 MS. : Normally, I'm there between 5 2:00 -. More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. 6 MR. : Okay. So, if you both 7 left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he 8 was coming back that day to fix it, how would 9 have he done that? 10 MS. : Because I would have spoken 11 to the captain and said, hey, needs to 12 get in the com room. 13 MR. : Do you remember, did that 14 conversation occur? 15 MS. : I honestly don't remember. 16 MR. : Okay. You don't 17 remember. 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Nice Vision has that 21 administrative feature. Nice Vision is the 22 camera -- 23 MS. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- system, right? That 25 administrative feature is called Supervision. EFTA00127051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Do you recall that? 2 MS. : Hmm. 3 MR. : Well -. 4 MR. : There was a couple 5 different -- 6 MR. : Name 7 MR. : -- names, for different 8 applications, but there is one application 9 called Supervision, and that you might be able 10 to log into Supervision and see if the recorder 11 errors are actually recording. Do you know if 12 you got access to that? 13 MS. : No. I have - mine is SIS 14 lieutenant access, so. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Who had administrative access 17 to the camera system? 18 MS. : Meaning that Supervision? 19 MR. : Supervision. Who could go 20 in, control the cameras, or take cameras 21 offline? And mess with the cameras. 22 MS. : I don't know. I would say 23 computer services have access, and probably, 24 would say, facilities managers should have 25 Supervision access. EFTA00127052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : But not the SIS Shop? 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So -- 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. and is 7 basically who you're saying? 8 MS. : I don't know. I don't even 9 know if would have Supervision access 10 because -. I don't know. I would think, if 11 you say Supervision, it would be upper 12 MR. : Yeah. Supervision 13 doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, 14 like, somebody in the -. It's a title for the 15 app. So, like, there's an app that says, like, 16 you know, these people are granted access to be 17 able to review and rewind, but then there's 18 another app 19 MS. : Oh. 20 MR. that allows you to 21 actually check to see if things are running 22 properly, and recording, an it's just called 23 Supervision. 24 MS. : Oh, okay. 25 MR. : That doesn't mean EFTA00127053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MS. : Then that would be -- 2 MR. : -- that you're a 3 supervisor. 4 MS. : -- that would be - I would 5 say - that would be because that's his 6 area, the cameras. 7 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 8 anybody else would have the ability to do 9 things like that, to take, you know, recorders 10 on or offline, or to at least check their 11 status with the camera system? 12 MS. : I don't know. If it is, it 13 would be facilities shop. 14 MR. : So, but primarily, 15 would be the person? 16 MS. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Not you, though? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : And in no way, while you 22 were Although, the only thing that would be 23 able to tip you off, if things weren't 24 recording, is if you started trying to rewind, 25 and it wasn't rewinding. EFTA00127054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MS. : If I tried to rewind, it 2 wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It 3 would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know 4 that it's a problem, even if it's not working 5 at all. Or something is wrong with it. 6 MR. : Did that - on the 8th, 7 when you were looking - were there any red X's? 8 MS. : I don't recall if -. Because 9 it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different 10 places. So, I don't recall there being a red 11 X. 12 MR. : But just to -- 13 MS. : On any of them. 14 MR. : -- circle back. What 15 tipped you off was with you and trying to 16 go back and review? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : And that's where you said 19 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : -- why can't I do 17. 22 MS. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Gotcha. 24 MR. : And prior to that day, you 25 don't recall when the last time you guys tried EFTA00127055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 to review it was, right? 2 MS. : No. I don't recall. 3 MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a 4 little bit. It had been a little while? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the 7 cameras? 8 MR. : I think that's all. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : That's great information, 11 that we didn't know that before. I didn't know 12 that that's how we found out that the cameras 13 were offline -- 14 MS. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- was basically your 16 review. How often should have been 17 going in to check those servers to make sure 18 that they were online? 19 MS. : Daily. 20 MR. : So then, would you know 21 if he was? 22 MS. : I can't say he was checking 23 daily. I know that he was up there quite 24 often. But I can't even say that he was 25 checking the cameras because, one I let him in, EFTA00127056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you 2 know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying 3 what are you doing, or, so -- 4 MR. : And I know we're talk -- 5 MS. -- but daily, they should 6 have checked. 7 MR. : I know we're talking a 8 long time ago now, but do you remember, prior 9 to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I 10 think the information that we have suggests 11 that the camera servers went down on the actual 12 July 29th -- 13 MS. : Hmm. 14 MR. : -- of 2019. So, there 15 is, like, almost a - more than a -- 16 MS. : Week. 17 MR. : -- week -- 18 MS. : Yeah. Yeah. 19 MR. : -- do you know if he was 20 actually going in, at that time, for that week 21 period, checking in on the servers at all, at 22 this -? 23 MS. : I know he entered the area. 24 But I don't know if he checked the servers 25 while he were back there. But I know he was EFTA00127057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 entering the area. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : What else is in that area? 4 MS. : Just the servers in there. 5 And ink cartridges. At the top. 6 MR. : And that's on the third 7 floor? 8 MS. : It's on the third floor. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And then, nothing else is 11 stored. Is there evidence stored in there? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : For some reason, we were 14 under the impression that SIS stored evidence 15 there. 16 MS. : There's no evidence in there. 17 It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before 18 I was born. 19 MR. : And I think said 20 that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and 21 there's, like, some evidence, some old 22 evidence, or evidence there. 23 MS. : Not where the servers are. 24 But it's some file cabinets, where the servers 25 are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS EFTA00127058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 cases from -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. a long time ago. 5 MR. : So, next topic? 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Okay. So, what was your 8 understanding about why Epstein was not in his 9 assigned cell? Were you aware that he was 10 when they found him - and he was not in the 11 cell that he was assigned to in the system? 12 MS. : No. I learned that later on, 13 that -- 14 MR. : What did you learn? 15 MS. : -- that he was keyed to one 16 cell, but he was actually living in another 17 cell. So, I don't know where they changed his 18 cell at. 19 MR. : And is this because the cell 20 rotations that happen in the SHU? 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : And who would have been 23 responsible to make sure that this, once the 24 cell rotation happened -. 25 MR. : That's not the reason. EFTA00127059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you 2 learn how that happened? How he was keyed into 3 one, and not in another? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear 6 -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, 7 he was initially placed into one cell, when he 8 came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, 9 but then, the CPAP (Phonetic Sp. *01:16:21) 10 machine didn't actually reach into there, so 11 they had to switch him to another? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : No? So, you never heard 14 anything about that? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 17 MR. : So -. 18 MR. : Who would have been 19 responsible for making those changes in the 20 system, to make sure that he's in the actual 21 cell where he's supposed to be there? 22 MS. : Normally, the SHU OIC make 23 the changes. 24 MR. : So, it wouldn't be the 25 lieutenant? It would be the OIC? EFTA00127060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MS. : Yeah. It would be the OIC. 2 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 3 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 4 there one overall OIC? 5 MS. : There is one for each shift. 6 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 7 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 8 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 9 responsible for that change? 10 MS. : No. Whatever shift he was 11 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 13 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 14 way for us to know when that occurred? When 15 they actually moved him from one cell to 16 another cell? 17 MS. : No. The only way you would 18 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 19 rewind and see. 20 MR. : To see, you know -- 21 MS. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- when that actually 23 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 24 working -- 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00127061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : -- from 7/29, and this 2 happened on 7/30. There's no way, at this 3 point? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Go ahead. 8 MR. : Next level? 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : Cell searches. How often are 11 they supposed to do cell searches in the SHU? 12 MS. : You're taking me back-back. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MS. : There is - I want to say they 15 have to do a set amount. I don't know if it's 16 three or five. It was five when I was an 17 officer. Per shift. They should be random 18 cell searches. 19 MR. : Is it of the general area, or 20 actual cells that they're supposed to be 21 searching? 22 MS. : Actual cell searches. 23 MR. : And is that five -? 24 MS. : With the exception of the 25 midnight shift. They usually do the general EFTA00127062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 areas. 2 MR. : But there should have been 3 cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five 4 times? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Per shift? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : On day watch -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- and night watch? 11 MS. : No. On day watch -- 12 MR. : Day watch and evening 13 MS. : -- an evening watch. 14 MR. watch. 15 MR. : All right. Well, 16 evening. Evening watch, right? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : So, if they're doing 19 those, is it just as important to log those 20 searches into the system? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : So, if there is no cell 23 searches actually being logged into th