DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 20, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00115477 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00115478 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 Today is Thursday, July 15, 2021. The 3 time is 4:03 p.m. and I've turned on the 4 recorder. My name is , I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of Inspector General, New York 7 Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : This interview is with the 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer 11 and this interview is being conducted as 12 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 13 Office of Inspector General investigation. 14 Today is July 15, 2021. The time is 4:04 p.m. 15 This interview is being conducted at the 16 Metropolitan Correctional Center located at 150 17 Park Road. We are in the Executive Assistant's 18 office. Also present is DOJ OIG Senior Special 19 Agent and CO . This 20 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 21 Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 24 • 25 MR. : I'm Senior Special Agent EFTA00115479 4 1 also 2 with the DOJ OIG. 3 MR. : Can you please state your 4 first and last name? 5 MR. : Oh, and these are my 6 credentials just so you do know. 7 MS. : Okay. I'm Correctional 8 Systems Officers S. with 9 the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Department of 10 Justice. 11 MR. : This is an official DOJ OIG 12 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffery 13 Epstein and the surrounding circumstances. You 14 are being asked to voluntarily provide answers 15 to our questions. Will you agree to a 16 voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Please review DOJ OIG form 3- 19 226/2. The form basically states, "United 20 States Department of Justice, Office of 21 Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to 22 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 23 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 24 provide information as part of an investigation 25 being conducted by the Office of Inspector EFTA00115480 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to as amended. performance the Inspector General Act of 1978, The investigation pertains to job failure and security failure." It's in general. It has nothing to do with you directly, it's in general, the investigation we're doing. "This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings or both." The waiver states, "I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to questions. made to me make a statement and answer No promises or threats have been or no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." Please review the document and let me know if you understand. If you do understand, please sign the document where it says, "Employee signature," and print your name. MR. : And just for the record, it doesn't basically state what you just said, EFTA00115481 6 1 it actually states everything that you just 2 read. 3 MR. : It states that. I used the 4 word "basically states," I shouldn't have said 5 that. 6 MS. : Okay. And I sign at employee 7 sig-. 8 MR. : It says, "Employee 9 signature," and print your name right below 10 there. 11 MR. : Oh, do you have any 12 questions on that before we go, just you can 13 totally ask (Indiscernible *00:03:35). 14 MS. : Okay. No. 15 MR. : Just, I mean, the long 16 and -- 17 MS. : Date and time? 18 MR. : -- short of it is 19 MR. : I'll put it in there. 20 MR. we can do that. But 21 then just the long and short of it is, it's 22 voluntary. You do not have to answer 23 questions. You can leave at any time. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : That's the purpose, for EFTA00115482 7 1 you just to -. 2 MR. : So you understand the form 3 and agree to the form. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : This is Special Agent 6 I'm signing on the signature of the Office of 7 Inspector General, Special Agent. 8 MR. : This is Special Agent 9 . I'll be signing as the 10 witness, printing my name as a witness, 11 entering the date and time as July 15, 2021 at 12 4:07 p.m. and the place MCC New York. 13 MR. : Before starting the 14 interview, I'd like to place you under oath. 15 Ms. , can you please raise your right 16 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 17 nothing but the truth during this interview? 18 MS. 19 MR. 20 hand down. 21 MS. : I do. : Please - you can put your : Oh, okay. 22 MR. : Please let me know if you 23 don't understand my questions and I'll try to 24 repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00115483 8 1 MR. : I want to again, clarify this 2 interview is specifically regarding inmate 3 Jeffrey Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019. 4 I'm going to go through some background 5 questions. What is your current home address? 6 MS. : My current home address? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MS. : Why is that relevant for 9 this? 10 MR. : As part of our investi-. 11 MR. : You don't have to provide 12 that. 13 MS. : Oh yeah, I don't want to -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : -- give my address. 16 MR. : If you have anything - 17 any kind of, like a PIV card you can show us 18 just so we can verify who it is that you are? 19 MS. : You know what? I left it at 20 my desk. 21 MR. : That's okay. Do you mind 22 providing us your date of birth and your last 23 four of your social security number? 24 MS. : Yes. is my date 25 of birth and last four of my social, EFTA00115484 9 1 MR. : What is your highest level of 2 education? 3 MS. : Master's degree. 4 MR. : Okay. In what? 5 MS. : Inspector General 6 investigations, fraud, abuse of correction, 7 organizational assessment and monitoring. 8 MR. : You know more about this 9 stuff than us then. 10 MR. : Which college? 11 MS. : John J. 12 MR. : And what about bachelors? 13 MS. : My bachelors was correctional 14 administration. 15 MR. : What did you do prior to 16 working for the BOP? 17 MR. : Ask her about where this 18 stuff was and when she got these degrees. 19 MR. 20 MS. : Okay. : I got my masters in 2017. I 21 got my BA in I believe 2006. 22 MR. : Also from John J.? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. And what - so prior to 25 working for the BOP, what did you do? EFTA00115485 10 1 2 3 4 MS. MR. MS. MR. : : : : Juvenile corrections. Where? Virginia. Is that with the state? 5 City? 6 MS. : Yeah. State Department of 7 Juvenile Justice. 8 MR. : Was that directly before the 9 BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 12 MR. recall -. : What years? I you don't 13 MR. : They can be approximate. 14 MR. : Estimate, yeah. 15 MS. : Approximately, I think 2006 16 or `07 to 2009, when I started here. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 18 military service? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And how long have you served 21 with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 22 MS. : Approximately now, 2009, 2019 23 24 is 10 years, years. 20, 21, going on 11 and a half 25 MR. : Eleven and a half years? And EFTA00115486 11 1 when was your enter on duty date? 2 MS. : 9/13/2009. 3 MR. : When did you graduate from 4 BOP training? 5 MS. : I don't remember that. I 6 don't -. 7 MR. : When did you begin your 8 career here at MCC? 9 MS. : March of 2011. 10 MR. : And what was your position at 11 that point? 12 MS. : Correctional Officer. 13 MR. : What is your composition? 14 MS. : Correctional Systems Officer. 15 MR. : And what's your regular 16 schedule right now? 17 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00 Monday through 18 Friday. 19 MR. : Do you -. 20 MR. : What does your position 21 entail? What is that? 22 MS. : Receiving and discharge, 23 movement. I deal with state risk, federal 24 risk, detainers, pending charges, warrants, 25 what else? EFTA00115487 12 1 2 3 4 5 MR. custody? MS. MR. level? : : And that's outside of Yes. : Okay. What is your grade 6 MS. : GS-8. 7 MR. : Eight? Okay. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : What was your position on 10 August 9th and 10th, 2019? 11 MS. : I was a Correctional Systems 12 Officer, but I was working overtime in custody. 13 14 What a minutes. that is. I don't even know what day 15 MR. : August 9th is a Friday. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : And August 10th is Saturday. 18 I can provide you the dailies and the roster -- 19 MS. : And what -. 20 MR. : -- for the MCC -- 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. -- and that's for August 9th 23 and 10th. If you look at it, you'll be able to 24 -. 25 MR. : And provide her -- EFTA00115488 13 1 MS. : This is two -. 2 MR. : -- provide her also her 3 timesheet. 4 MR. : Yes. Is this your timesheet 5 for the same time period? 6 MR. : Show her the columns 7 (Indiscernible *00:08:55). 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : It's (Indiscernible 10 *00:08:58). 11 MS. : I normally write everything 12 on a calendar, but looks like my timesheet. 13 MR. : So, the timesheet is for 14 August 4th all the way to August 17th. For the 15 9th, where does this timesheet show that you 16 worked? 17 MS. : This - it doesn't show where 18 you're working, it just shows the hours you've 19 worked. 20 MR. : Is it coded under a certain 21 entry? 22 MR. : Well just ask her, do you 23 know by looking at these documents, do you know 24 where on August 9th and August 10th you were 25 working? This is not an, "I got you," EFTA00115489 14 1 whatsoever. Just like, do you recall on August 2 9th(Indiscernible *00:10:03) working? 3 MS. : Well, I know that this is a 4 custody overtime code for the overtime sheets. 5 So this is 6 MR. : If it doesn't state, that's 7 okay. 8 MS. : It's possible, because I do - 9 I was working a lot of overtime, so. But I 10 can't recall off the top of my head. But I 11 know I did work the evening of the Epstein 12 situation, so. 13 MR. : When you say "evening."? 14 MS. : The morning he hung himself. 15 MR. : Okay. So according to the 16 August 10th schedule, find yourself on the 17 schedule? 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : What were you listed for? 20 MS. : Control one. 21 MR. : Control one. Okay. Do you 22 recall being interviewed by - recall 23 interviewing with the OIG regarding the Epstein 24 investigation in 2019? 25 MS. : I remember being interviewed, EFTA00115490 15 1 yes. 2 MR. : Okay. What I have is a 3 summary off a report written by the FBI. Was 4 the FBI also present? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : We did get a copy of it 7 because OIG was present for the interview also. 8 I'm going to read a portion of the interview 9 record for you. 10 MR. : Does it state when she 11 worked on August 9 and 10? That might help 12 clarify things. 13 MR. : For the 10th it does. And 14 so, I'm going to read it. As I read through 15 it, it's just summary for the record. Please 16 tell me if there's any corrections and let me 17 know -- 18 MS. : Okay. 19 MR. and we'll address it. 20 "Control's duties including monitoring the 21 activity on the ranges, answering calls from 22 COs, replying on the radio and opening doors." 23 MS. : Monitoring - you - at that 24 time, we didn't have cameras on the ranges so 25 you could only see the center, which is like, EFTA00115491 16 1 they consider it the MPA, multi-purpose area of 2 the unit. You are not able to see down the 3 actual ranges of the units, so no. I wouldn't 4 say, "The ranges," I would say, "The multi- 5 purpose area." 6 MR. : Multi-purpose area of the 7 ranges. "And ," did I pronounce it 8 right? 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. . stated that no one is 11 really moving anywhere within the institution. 12 A count sheet is called the E-1 and it is 13 printed off from the internal MCC system called 14 SENTRY. Control validates all respondent 15 numbers from the head counts and marks an X on 16 the E-1 sheet to confirm the count. This 17 happens for every check of every unit. E-ls 18 are supplemented with count slips that are 19 properly filled out and stapled to the E-1 20 timesheet. Once all head count numbers are 21 verified to be correct, everything is 22 documented, recorded and then considered to be 23 a good count. began her shift on August 24 10th at 12:00 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 25 stated that Lieutenant took care of EFTA00115492 17 1 the 12 o'clock that day." I'm going to pause 2 right there. I'm going to ask you a question. 3 Do you recall coming on shift that day? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you recall the first count 6 would be at 12:00 midnight? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And were you in Control when 9 the count happened? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Who took the count? 12 MS. : I don't remember at that 13 time. I don't remember all this time ago, but 14 if I said the Lieutenant took the count at that 15 time, then that's who took the count, because 16 every Lieutenant is required to take a count, 17 one count per shift. 18 MR. : But you don't recall the 19 exact situation -. 20 MR. : I think what he's asking 21 was, was Lieutenant in the Control 22 with you? 23 MS. : At some point in time, yes, 24 she was. 25 MR. : So if she was taking the EFTA00115493 18 1 count, does that mean that she's doing from 2 Control? 3 MS. : Yes, she's doing it from 4 Control. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Okay. %•% recalled that 7 CO Thomas -" - and this says CO Noel, but is 8 that Noel? 9 MS. : Noel. 10 MR. "CO Noel worked in the SHU on 11 the day of the incident. stated that 12 Noel was fairly new. stated that she 13 does not pay specific attention to just one 14 individual screen during her shifts since so 15 much is going on. stated that extension 16 6468 is a number that is called for reporting 17 the count. If a Lieutenant is on the unit for 18 the count, then this is when it is considered a 19 watch call. On the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 20 watch calls, ran the counts. 21 recalled that the SHU called in the count of 22 the day and that the count was accurate. 23 does not recall who called in the count 24 from the SHU but recalled that the number was 25 72. stated that there are folders that EFTA00115494 19 1 are filed that are compiled with count 2 verification timesheets for every day of the 3 calendar year." 4 MS. : That is correct. 5 MR. : So I asked you, on August 6 10th, you said you worked at midnight in 7 Control. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Do you recall if you worked 10 on August 9th? 11 MS. : I probably did. I don't 12 recall that, this far from now to then, but I 13 probably most likely worked that day and if 14 it's on the roster and it's on my timesheet, 15 most likely, yes. 16 MR. : But you wouldn't happen to 17 recall if you worked in internal or R&D? 18 MS. : I know I worked R&D because 19 that's my regular position and Custody, 20 anything I did in Custody would be considered 21 overtime for me. 22 MR. : Okay. So, on August 9th, by 23 based on that, it wouldn't tell - would the 24 (Indiscernible *00:15:16). 25 MS. : It did say overtime. It did EFTA00115495 20 1 say overtime in internal. 2 MR. : But internal is not - is that 3 the same as R&D? 4 MS. : No. R&D, this is 5 Correctional Services. R&D is Correctional 6 Systems. Those are two different departments. 7 This is custody and R&D is non-custody. 8 MR. : So by this, were you in 9 custody? 10 MS. : Yes. I was there. 11 MR. : Okay. So you were working in 12 internal, not in R&D. 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you recall who your 15 supervisor was when you worked at the MCC on 16 August 9th and 10th? 17 MS. : I would only know by looking 18 at this roster. , Lieutenant 19 MR. : So you report only to 20 or do you report to any other COs 21 MS. : No, she's the only supervisor 22 on duty during that time. 23 MR. : During the night. And so 24 both days it was midnight to 8:00 a.m. 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00115496 21 1 MR. : Okay. Was she also a 2 supervisor? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Are you familiar with inmate 5 Jeffrey Epstein? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Did Jeffrey Epstein have a 8 cell mate? 9 MS. : Yes, he did. 10 MR. : Do you know who it was? 11 MS. : I don't know, but I know the 12 inmate went out to court I believe Friday and 13 he didn't come back from court. I don't know 14 if he got released from court, but he didn't 15 come back to the institution that day. 16 MR. : How do you know that? 17 MS. : Because I work in R&D. 18 MR. : So, is this from your 19 knowledge from working in R&D that day or on a 20 later date? 21 MS. : My knowledge of working in 22 R&D that day. 23 MR. : So that's - okay. Because 24 according to this, you were in R&D -- 25 MS. : I was in R&D. EFTA00115497 22 1 MR. : I mean, you're in 2 internal. 3 MS. : Right. But this is midnight. 4 My hours in R&D is from 12:00 to 8:00. 5 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00? So you did 6 work later in the shift -- 7 MS. : Right. 8 MR. so that (Indiscernible 9 *00:16:56) be on the schedule at all. You're 10 not going to be on this roster. It's not going 11 to show you as 12:00 to 8:00. 12 MS. : Custody has a different 13 roster from my department roster. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : So you're not going to see my 16 department. My department hours would be that 17 - what you see on that timesheet and this is 18 considered overtime. So anything here, where 19 it says, "Additional," this is overtime because 20 you see the two shifts, the eight up here and 21 the eight at the bottom. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : And that's 16 hours for the 24 day. 25 MR. : So I'm going to go back and EFTA00115498 23 1 clarify. On August 9th, you worked from 2 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- and you were in internal. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And then after that, what was 7 your next shift? 8 MS. : That was Saturday, the next 9 day. That would be midnight the next night. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : These are all midnight 12 shifts. 13 MR. : Midnight shifts. But did you 14 work regular shifts those days? August 9th and 15 10th? 16 MS. : In my department? 17 MR. : Yeah, in R&D. 18 MS. : If it's a Friday and a 19 Thursday or a Friday and a Saturday. A 20 Saturday, I wouldn't be in my department, no. 21 MR. : What about Friday? 22 MS. : Friday I'm in my department, 23 yes, because my department is Monday through 24 Friday. 25 MR. : And what's your regular time? EFTA00115499 24 1 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00. I believe I 2 was working 12:00 to 8:00. I'm not sure. 3 MR. : That's midnight to 8:00, 4 right? But midnight to 8:00 -. 5 MS. : No, no, no, 12:00 p.m. in the 6 afternoon 7 MR. : 12:00 p.m. to 8:00. 8 MS. to 8:00 p.m. 9 MR. : To 8:00 p.m. So, according 10 to this, you were in internal from - on August 11 9th, from midnight to 8:00 a.m., then there was 12 a four hour break? Are you saying there was a 13 four hour break and then you worked from -. 14 MS. : I'm not sure right here based 15 on this because I might have been working 2:00 16 to 10:00 because I had to do 12:00 8:00 p.m. or 17 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : So, based on this, this says, 20 "Regular base." This might have been from the 21 day shift because this says, "Regular base," so 22 this might have been, I worked midnight to 8:00 23 in the morning and then maybe 8:00 to 4:00 in 24 my department because I don't see no - well, I 25 don't record my duty hours in my department at EFTA00115500 25 1 that time. 2 MR. : It's been a while. 3 MS. : I'm sorry. Yeah. 4 MR. : But to follow up though, 5 you said that you knew that Epstein's cell mate 6 had left because you were working in R&D, so 7 you probably want to follow up -- 8 MR. : Yeah. So -. 9 MR. : -- with that. 10 MS. So we key inmates in and out 11 to court. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So that - so, Reyes, how did 14 you first come to learn that he left? 15 MS. : Because we have to key them 16 out to go to court. I mean, I don't know 17 actually at that moment that he was Epstein's 18 cell mate, but when the comment came up that 19 his bunkie, they moved his bunkie, they put him 20 in a cell by himself, and when we learned who 21 that specific inmate was, that's how I became 22 aware that, no, this guy went to court and he 23 was released from court, wherever he got 24 removed to. Never came back from court. 25 MR. : What do you mean they moved EFTA00115501 26 1 his bunkie to a separate cell? 2 MS. : They kept saying Epstein was 3 put in a cell by himself, he didn't have a cell 4 mate. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : That was not the case, he did 7 have a cell mate, but he got released from 8 court or wherever it is the Marshals took him 9 to, that he didn't come back to MCC. But off 10 the top to say I knew that that was actually 11 his cell mate, I didn't know that until we 12 became aware of who the inmate was that got 13 released and went to court, because we don't 14 know who inmate's cell mates are just by 15 working in R&D, we just know their bed 16 assignment and what unit they're coming from. 17 MR. : No, working the R&D, are you 18 familiar with something called the court list? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Was inmate Reyes's name on 21 the court list? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Do you recall? 24 MS. : Yeah. Because I think that's 25 the guy we keyed out to court. EFTA00115502 27 1 MR. : Okay. And what is a court 2 list? 3 MS. : A court list is something we 4 get from the Marshals. They'll send us over 5 just a roster of names of inmates to appear for 6 production to the court either going out on a 7 RIT (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:13), being transferred 8 to another jail. A court list consists of 9 whatever type of movement that the Marshals 10 want the inmates for. It could be appearing 11 before a proffer to tell on somebody, it could 12 just be whatever it is that they need them to 13 appear for the court production for. 14 MR. : How do the Marshals send it 15 over? 16 MS. : They always email it or fax 17 it. 18 MR. : Who receives the email? 19 MS. : Everybody in R&D. 20 MR. : Do you recall who was working 21 in R&D that day? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Everybody receives it. 24 MS. : Yeah, everybody in R&D 25 receives it, but I couldn't say off the -- EFTA00115503 28 1 2 3 4 MR. : Yeah. MS. : -- top of my head, "Oh, this person worked," I don't remember who worked with me that day. 5 MR. : So everybody that 6 actually is in R&D, you all get that same 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- court sheet, so it 9 doesn't matter who was working that day or not. 10 MS. : Right. 11 12 MR. gotten it. : Everybody would have 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 15 MR. email? : Do you recall receiving that 16 MS. : I don't recall receiving the 17 email, but I know we had a court list. 18 MR. : Who creates that court list? 19 MS. : Whoever is doing movement. 20 MR. : Okay. And what - so you just 21 mentioned all the inmates that's listed on 22 there anything for movement and the Marshals 23 send it over -- 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- and they email it. And EFTA00115504 29 1 what do you get? 2 MR. : Email or fax you said, 3 right? 4 MS. : Email or fax. 5 MR. : Or fax. 6 MR. : Is it (Indiscernible 7 *00:22:21) 8 MS. : Well, I believe they were 9 doing both email and faxing at that time. 10 MR. : So you get both. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And once the list comes over, 14 and who did you say creates the court list? 15 MS. : The movement officer and if 16 the movement officer is not there, whoever is 17 filling in, it might be somebody in the front 18 desk. Just whoever is in the department, 19 they'll fill out the - complete the court list, 20 put it on a call out and get it prepared so 21 overnight, the officer who is internal can pass 22 it out to the housing unit so the inmates are 23 aware when they wake up the next day or the 24 officer can say, "Hey, I got this inmate, I've 25 got to get him ready for court the next day." EFTA00115505 30 1 MR. : Who is the movement officer? 2 MS. : I don't know if - I don't 3 know who was the movement officer at that time. 4 I don't know. 5 MR. : Okay. When do the -. 6 MR. : When you say a movement 7 officer, are you talking about control? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : I mean internal? 10 MS. : No. R&D. 11 MR. : R&D movement officer? 12 MS. : We have different position 13 yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : We have different positions 16 in R&D where everybody had a different 17 function. 18 MR. : Okay. So is the movement 19 officer in R&D basically like will go into 20 internal with (Indiscernible *00:23:21)? 21 MS. : No, they are - they are like, 22 they prepare the transfer orders if inmates are 23 moving out of the -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. -- institution. EFTA00115506 31 1 MR. : So they're doing the 2 background of what the internal guy does 3 almost. 4 MS. : They don't have anything to 5 do with internal. 6 MR. : Okay. Because - okay. 7 Sorry. 8 MS. : It's - no. 9 MR. : I'm making more things 10 more (Indiscernible *00:23:38). 11 MS. : Nothing to do with internal. 12 It's just preparing inmates to move out of the 13 institution, preparing the production list for 14 inmates to - for a unit - for a list to be 15 disseminated to the housing units for the 16 officers to know what inmate has to appear in 17 court the next day. The movement officer might 18 draft up a - get a compile, like a medical 19 summary, transit order, anything that they need 20 to put together for an inmate to be released to 21 move out of the institution to be transferred. 22 That's what the movement officer does. 23 MR. : Great. 24 MR. : Do you recall what your 25 position was in the R&D that day? EFTA00115507 32 1 MS. : I might have been R&D. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : I might have been R&D. I 4 don't believe I was movement but I might have 5 been R&D. 6 MR. : So as R&D, what would you 7 take care of? 8 MS. : Court movement, inmates going 9 in and out, keying them in and out, getting 10 inmates down to my area to get prepared for 11 court, tracking inmates going out to the 12 hospital, keying inmates going out to the 13 hospital, keying inmates coming back. 14 Basically, I would be responsible for like 15 inmates leaving in and out of the institution 16 - 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : -- and preparing them to get 19 out of the institution. 20 MR. : We can take a step back. 21 When did the Marshals list normally come over? 22 Do they send it over the night before? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Evening before or they send 25 it the morning of? EFTA00115508 33 1 MS. : The evening before. 2 MR. : Around what time? 3 MS. : I think it's always around 4 it's approximately between, I would say, maybe 5 3:00 and 5:00 or - yeah, between like 3:00 and 6 5:00, something like that. 7 MR. : Okay. And -. 8 MS. : Around that time frame. It's 9 not like a set time, it's whoever does it and 10 faxes it over and emails it. But it was about 11 maybe between 3:00 and 5:00 or 3:00 and 6:00, 12 something like that. 13 MR. : And then once R&D receives 14 it, you guys prepare a court list. 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : And what does it state on the 17 court list? 18 MS. : It's just a document, like a 19 SENTRY created document that show the inmate's 20 name, his housing unit, if he has a separatee 21 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:49) in the institution and 22 what time he has to come down to R&D to move 23 out for court, whether it be that he has court 24 in the a.m. or court in the p.m. 25 MR. : Okay. And would it state, EFTA00115509 34 1 like, let's say if an inmate was leaving and 2 not coming back, would it state on there? 3 MS. : Yeah, it would say, "WAB," 4 but most often times, pre-trial is - because 5 they're not our inmates, they're Marshals 6 inmates, the Marshals can move them at any 7 given time and just forward us back a 8 disposition of the inmate leaving. "Inmate so 9 and so was released to Probation. Here's a cut 10 slip for you guys, file -" - then we can go 11 ahead and key them out. But we don't key 12 inmates out WAB if they're going out to court. 13 We key them out - at that time, we were doing 14 what was considered an out count. We weren't 15 keying inmates out, we were keying them on an 16 out count so we know that we have an account of 17 who went out to court and we have an account of 18 who came back from court. 19 MR. : So are you saying that you 20 guys wouldn't remove the inmate completely from 21 the count, you would just leave them under the 22 out count? 23 MS. : Yes. We would only remove 24 him if prior to that list, when we got the 25 list, it says, "Transferred WAB, we're sending EFTA00115510 35 1 him somewhere to Brooklyn or he's going back to 2 the state," that night before we would know 3 that. But sometimes at the spur of the moment, 4 things might arise, a judge might give a person 5 time served, he might commit him to drug 6 treatment program, Probation might come and 7 pick him up. It could be a number of things 8 that take place at court that it might be just 9 a regular court proceeding but then he gets 10 released and he doesn't come back to the 11 institution. 12 MR. : Do you recall seeing inmate 13 Efrain Reyes's name on that list? 14 MS. : If he was on that list at 15 that time, then I've seen it, but I don't 16 recall now, speaking now, but at that time, 17 yeah, if his name was on the list, yes. 18 MR. : Do you recall if his - I know 19 you said you don't recall, but by any chance, 20 would you have known if he left WAB? What does 21 WAB stand for? 22 MS. : With all belonging, meaning 23 they're being transferred either to an air 24 lift, transferred to another BOP, transferred 25 to another state institution, that the Marshals EFTA00115511 36 1 will be transferring them to. 2 MR. : And you don't recall if he - 3 do you recall if his name was on as WAB on that 4 list? 5 MS. : No. I don't recall that. 6 MR. : Okay. We'll come back in a 7 little bit. The court list that you guys 8 create, who does that get sent to? 9 MS. : It doesn't get sent to - it 10 gets sent to the unit officers. We don't email 11 it out, we make hard copies and the internal 12 officer comes around at night and he gives one 13 to each housing unit. 14 MR. : Around what time? 15 MS. : Depending on - any time 16 during from midnight to 8:00 in the morning. 17 They have up until to give out that. But most 18 likely, no later than 5:00 a.m., after the 5 19 o'clock count because at that time, that's when 20 the institution is opening up after the 5:00 21 a.m. count, then the inmates will have their 22 breakfast and start preparing for whatever it 23 is their day entails. 24 MR. : Do you recall working that 25 morning in R&D and seeing inmate Reyes come EFTA00115512 37 1 down? 2 MS. : I don't remember. 3 MR. : Okay. And when the list is 4 sent up to the units, what do they do with it? 5 MS. : The unit officers take it and 6 he views it and it just tells him who on his 7 unit has court that day. 8 MR. : Is a copy of that list 9 maintained anywhere? 10 MR. : By R&D. 11 MR. : R&D. 12 MS. : No. Because -- 13 MR. : Where do we get it? 14 MS. -- once we - once that list 15 is done of the day, we just shred it, we don't 16 need it. 17 MR. : What about what's used to 18 - it sounds like create the list from the 19 Marshals, can we get - can we go back to emails 20 from August 8th, I guess it would be, to get 21 that court list from August 9th? 22 MS. : If it's still in the system, 23 yeah, you would still - you would be able to 24 see it, yeah. 25 MR. : And you said at that EFTA00115513 38 1 time, they're both fax and email so any single 2 person we could just grab an email from them if 3 it was archived? 4 MS. Uh-huh. If it's still, you 5 know, in the system, but we don't normally keep 6 court lists. Once we done for that day, 7 everything gets shredded and we start fresh for 8 the next day. So we don't hold onto court 9 lists. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Just something we never did. 12 The only thing we hold onto is transfer orders, 13 people that transferred out, like -. 14 MR. : So for instance, with 15 Reyes - when you say "transfer order," does 16 that also mean released or is that just 17 transferred to a different institution? 18 MS. : Transferred to a different 19 institution 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : -- because if he got released 22 or he got a disposition, that would be 23 something we would place in his file, why he 24 got released. You know you got to have 25 something to show that why you released this EFTA00115514 39 1 inmate, that we didn't just let him walk out 2 the door, we have this document from the 3 Marshals why we released him. 4 MR. : So would Reyes have a 5 file like that? 6 MS. : If it's not sent to archives 7 and this is 2021, his file would be - his file 8 is probably archived now. 9 MR. : even thought it's like - 10 my understanding was like August 9th everything 11 was going to be, like, preserved August 9th and 12 10th. Do you know if that would create it not 13 actually be archived but actually still 14 maintained somewhere? 15 MS. You would have to get with 16 SIS, I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 19 MR. : Do you know if that court 20 list is used to update the daily log? 21 MS. : What do you mean? 22 MR. : Do you know what a daily log 23 is? 24 MR. : Show her. 25 MR. : Have you ever seen that? EFTA00115515 40 1 MS. : Uh-huh. This is 2 MR. : Is that -. 3 MS. -- 38. 4 MR. : It's a what? 5 MS. : We call this a PP38. 6 MR. : PP38. 7 MS. : It just tracks movement of 8 who went out the institution, who went from 9 what unit to what unit, who got keyed out. 10 This is what this is. It just tracks all the 11 movement for that day. 12 MR. : Can you flip to the third 13 page for inmate Efrain Reyes. You see next to 14 it it says, "Pre-remove." Do you know what 15 that means? 16 MS. : Uh-huh. That means he was 17 removed from the institution. 18 MR. : Does that mean there's a 19 possibility that the Marshals list came over 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. -- with him as a WAB? 22 MS. : Possibility. Yeah. 23 MR. : What else could it - why else 24 would you list an inmate as pre-remove? 25 MS. : We don't list them as pre- EFTA00115516 41 1 remove, we just key him out as pre-remove. 2 MR. : So he was keyed out at that 3 point. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And what time was it keyed 6 out, do you know? 7 MS. : 8:38. Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And he wouldn't be - if a 9 person is going to court, what would it be 10 listed as? 11 MS. : If he's going to court on 12 this, you wouldn't see - at that time, you 13 wouldn't see that he went to court. You would 14 have to run an out count to show who was keyed 15 out to court. So, you wouldn't be able to see 16 that on this because this just tracks who came 17 into the institution, who left the institution 18 and what housing units they were transferred 19 from, whether they came out of SHU or they went 20 to SHU or they got moved from one unit, housing 21 unit, to another housing unit or if they're - 22 say an inmate got sentenced, this would show 23 you that he might have went from a A-pre, 24 meaning a pre-trial inmate to a hold, he might 25 have pled guilty so now he's longer a pre-trial EFTA00115517 42 1 and he's waiting sentencing. So this would 2 just show you stuff like that. Or he became a 3 designated inmate and he's a BOP inmate. 4 MR. : How would you be able to see 5 the difference between an inmate that just left 6 for court and was coming back and an inmate 7 that left? 8 MR. : Or WAB. 9 MR. : WAB. 10 MS. : On this? 11 MR. : Yeah. Can you? 12 MS. : Yeah, you could just see - 13 well, you don't know, you just know that they 14 were pre-removed. So you don't know, looking 15 at this, why they were pre-removed. 16 MR. : So I guess what he means 17 though, is if someone is just going to court 18 and didn't go to court WAB versus someone who 19 went to court WAB, would they be coded 20 differently on that? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : At all? 23 MS. : At that time, we weren't - if 24 the inmate went to court and he was a WAB, we 25 would key him out pre-remove or hold-remove. EFTA00115518 43 1 So yes, but - I'm trying to think, what did you 2 just say. Say it again. 3 MR. : So I guess, is there a 4 differentiation, if someone is WAB, are they 5 coded as pre-remove if they're just going to 6 court and they don't have WAB next to their 7 name on that form, would it just say something 8 different, like "Court?" 9 MS. : No, you wouldn't see WAB on 10 this form. You -. 11 MR. : No, no, no, I'm not 12 saying like you would see WAB on that form -- 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. -: -- I'm just saying like, 15 if an inmate goes to court, are they always 16 listed as pre-remove? 17 MS. : No, they'd be hold to move. 18 MR. : And what's the 19 difference? So is it either pre-remove or 20 hold-remove? 21 MS. : Or bail bond. 22 MR. : Or bail bond. And can 23 you -. 24 MS. : Or time served. 25 MR. : Okay. So, when they're EFTA00115519 44 1 leaving and - so it sounds like the latter to 2 that are totally different things. But if 3 MS. : Well, no. They could be on 4 the court list and they could appear and go out 5 to court as a court and they might get ordered 6 to time served. 7 MR. : Uh-huh. 8 MS. : So, now, we have them on an 9 out count as going to court because we weren't 10 keying inmates physically out of the 11 institution, we were placing them on an out 12 count. So you would send them out to court as 13 a court, but if you got a disposition back from 14 the Marshals stating that, "Inmate so and so 15 was sentenced to time served," now you would go 16 back in the system and you would key him out, 17 time served. So it doesn't necessarily mean 18 that they could be on the court list as a WAB 19 because that doesn't always happen. Sometimes 20 they do get released straight from the 21 courthouse and never come back to the jail, so 22 those things do happen. 23 MR. : And that's what ha- so, 24 what we're trying to get to is, is there any 25 way by looking at that, we can determine if EFTA00115520 45 1 Reyes, when he left at 8:38, had a WAB next to 2 his name. 3 MS. : Not from looking at this, no. 4 MR. : No? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : The only way we would be 7 able to determine that is by getting that court 8 list? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : All right. And -. 11 MS. : Because the Marshals could 12 have sent something back over and said, "Inmate 13 so and so is not coming back, he's going with 14 Probation." He could have had a court 15 appearance and he could have - it could have 16 been with 17 time, the 18 sentenced his probation officer and at that judge could have said whatever and the inmate to probation. So now, 19 he's not coming back to the institution, now 20 we've got to pre-remove him. It just all 21 depends on what happened at court and it all 22 depends on what his status was prior to going 23 to court, what we got far as the court list. 24 So I couldn't tell you that just by looking at 25 that. EFTA00115521 46 1 MR. : When the Marshals send 2 over whatever it is they send over, did they 3 have WAB on their form? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So, if we get one of 8 those emails, it would say WAB on it. 9 MS. : At that time, it said WAB, 10 yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So that's not 12 something that you create and write WAB, they 13 actually would have it on that email. 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Right. We don't create that 17 until we get their list. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MS. : Then that's - we go by what's 20 on their list and then we type it up and we 21 disseminate it to the housing units like that. 22 MR. : Okay. But somebody that 23 your - so, my understanding though is that not 24 everybody that goes to court is WAB. 25 MS. : That's correct. EFTA00115522 47 1 MR. : And just to make sure 2 that we are understanding correctly on that, so 3 people that just go to court, would they also 4 be listed as pre-remove? 5 MS. : They could possibly be, yes. 6 MR. : Just possibly, but -. 7 MS. : It could possibly be because 8 the Marshals might call you and say, "Hey, we 9 got inmate so and so, he's not coming back, 10 he's going with the state," and they'll send us 11 a cut slip. Yeah. 12 MR. : No, that's after the fact 13 though, after they've already left? 14 MS. : That can possibly happen 15 after they left, yes. 16 MR. : So if we're looking at 17 this thing on RAS (Phonetic Sp. *00:37:52) 18 where it says 8:38, is that what was entered 19 for him at 8:38 or is it that could have been 20 changed later on, the pre-remove thing? 21 MS. : It just depends on what time 22 he went out. I don't know because it could 23 have been changed. Well, no. Well, I can't 24 tell you just by looking at this. 25 MR. : So, all right, so this EFTA00115523 48 1 doesn't tell us anything? 2 MS. : It tells you that he was 3 removed from the institution. 4 MR. : At 8:38 though. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And I guess, so - and 7 again, I 8 MS. : Because at one point in time, 9 how we key inmates out now is not how we were 10 keying inmates out then. We didn't key them 11 out, we just placed them on the out count. So, 12 if we keyed them on an out count, they would 13 show off of the unit population but they would 14 still be on the institutional count. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Now, how we key them out, 17 they're off the institutional count and they're 18 off the unit count. So when we key them out 19 now for court, they - it's like they never - 20 they're not here in the institution at all. 21 MR. : Okay. So for these 22 people that were on this pre-remove, does that 23 mean at 8:38, pre-remove, that he was taken off 24 of the institutional count? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00115524 49 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : And is there - I do see a 4 few pre-removes on there though. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : Is there anybody on there 7 that went to court that wasn't listed as a pre- 8 remove? 9 MS. : I don't know. 10 MR. : You can't tell by looking 11 at that? All right. So that basically doesn't 12 tell us anything about him being WAB or not. 13 MS. : Right. I can't tell you who 14 went to court. 15 MR. : Okay. We just need to 16 get that court list. 17 MR. : So just to clarify. Some of 18 this list as pre-remove can come back. 19 MS. : Can't? 20 MR. : Can, C-A-N, they could come 21 back to the institution. 22 MS. : If he got another charge and 23 the Marshals brough him back. 24 MR. : But - okay. So if there is 25 pre-removed, that means he's gone. He's -. EFTA00115525 50 1 MS. : He's gone. 2 MR. : He's gone. 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : And he's not expected to 5 come back? 6 MS. : Correct. 7 MR. : Okay. All right. I did 8 miss that. All right. So when you list them 9 as pre-remove, he's going to court, he's not 10 expected to come back. 11 MS. : Correct. 12 MR. : So at 8:38, Reyes was 13 gone and not expected to return. 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. Now, is the 16 Marshals supposed to send over a confirmation 17 that he's not coming back? Because you 18 mentioned something about they being keyed as 19 something different when they are officially 20 gone, like they're off the books. 21 MS. : No, this would be officially 22 off the books, a pre-remove. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : But what the question was, 25 would 1 know at this time, was he a WAB, 1 EFTA00115526 51 1 would only know that if I looked at the court 2 list at that time, then I can determine that, 3 "Okay, yeah, we keyed him out that way because 4 he was leaving with all his belonging," Or, 5 "No, we keyed him out that way because we got a 6 disposition later and stated that he wasn't 7 coming back." I can't just say, just by 8 looking at this, "Oh, well, we keyed him out 9 that way because he was a WAB." Now, I can 10 look at this GCT release and this full term 11 release or this treaty transfer and tell you 12 that these were guys that were getting full 13 term release from the jail and they were not 14 coming back. But - and I can also say that 15 he's not coming back, but I can't tell you why 16 he was pre-removed. I don't know the 17 circumstances of why he was pre-removed. I 18 would have to go back to his folder, look in 19 his folder, pull up his documents of why we 20 keyed him out. I can't just say, "Oh, yeah, 21 because he left with all his belongings, oh, it 22 was a court -" - I can't -. 23 MR. : So you can't tell that, 24 but you can tell 8:38 he left and was not 25 expected to return. EFTA00115527 52 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. So that's 3 basically the same thing. So, anybody that 4 knew that Reyes was gone at 8:38, like he was, 5 knew very unlikely to return. 6 MS. : Everybody don't have - 7 everybody doesn't look at this. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : So, if you don't have a 10 reason to look at this, you're not going to 11 look at this and everybody -. 12 MR. : But anybody that had the 13 - whatever reason you used to code him out like 14 that, they would have had that court list and 15 they would have had the same - they would have 16 known the reason why he was leaving though, 17 correct? 18 MS. : Right. 19 MR. : And that he wasn't 20 expected to return? 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : So, okay. So not 23 specifically that document, but what you used 24 to key him out, they would know. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115528 53 1 MR. : so, okay. So, based upon 2 the fact that he was pre-removed by R&D, for 3 instance, the unit he came from, the Special 4 Housing Unit, they should have known he left 5 and was very likely not returning. 6 MS. : They wouldn't know that. The 7 officers on the unit would not know that. 8 MR. : Even if they had the 9 court list and that's where they're grabbing 10 him from? 11 MS. : If the - let me tell you 12 something. I'm trying to figure out how to say 13 this. Everybody that reads a document, do not 14 know what they're reading. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Everybody that pulls up 17 SENTRY, does not know how to read a SENTRY 18 document. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MS. : So I can't say, "Yes," that 21 they should know that or, "No." 22 MR. : If they knew how to read 23 the court list, they would know. 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Got you. EFTA00115529 54 1 MS. : Right. 2 MR. : Yeah, you can't certainly 3 can't say he knew that because you don't even 4 know who we're talking about. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : But I'm just saying, like 7 the information would have been on there if 8 they knew how to interpret it. 9 MS. : Right. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : we might have covered this 12 already, but if we wanted to go back and 13 retrieve that court document, like get a copy, 14 what's the best way we can do it? 15 MS. : You probably need to get with 16 the Marshals because they're the ones that 17 create that list that they sent to us in order 18 for production. 19 MR. : Are you aware if they retain 20 it or not? 21 MS. : I don't know nothing about 22 what they do with their 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : documents. 25 MR. : No problem. EFTA00115530 55 1 MR. : No, well, she said that 2 it's emailed to everybody -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- so. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : Now, after reviewing that, do 7 you know if that daily log - if the court 8 document, the court list is used to update the 9 Lieutenant's log? 10 MS. : There's - yeah, yeah. 11 MR. : And the daily log. 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : Okay. We covered this. And 14 the daily log, the entries that are made on it, 15 is it made at the time that it's keyed in or is 16 it - can it be edited later? 17 MS. : When you say "edited," what 18 do you mean? 19 MR. : Can someone go in a couple 20 hours later and key in saying that, "Hey, 21 listen, this person left at 8:38." 22 MS. : I don't think so because 23 everybody that actually - you have a certain 24 time frame to key inmates in and you have a 25 certain time frame to key inmates out. EFTA00115531 56 1 MR. : And what's the time frame? 2 MS. If inmates - but sometimes in 3 R&D, we don't always get to sit down at the 4 computer right then and there and key them out, 5 because we're dealing with the Marshals, 6 they're walking out with one guy, we still have 7 somebody else we might have to strip out. 8 We're still dealing with this, we're dealing 9 with the phone. When an inmate is being 10 released, you're supposed to key them out right 11 then and there, but you have up to a minimum of 12 at least, I think it's an hour or two hours, to 13 key somebody in that's coming in the 14 institution. But, like I said, just looking at 15 this, it just tells you the time he was keyed 16 out. I don't know if he was picked up earlier 17 and already taken to the courthouse, then he 18 was keyed out, pre-removed after, I couldn't 19 I can't answer that. I don't know. It's not - 20 I can't answer that. 21 MR. : Now thinking back about the 22 possibility that you were working in R&D that 23 day -- 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- do you recall if he was EFTA00115532 57 1 removed or not that day and what time he was 2 removed? 3 MS. : I don't recall. I just know 4 that when they talked about the inmate, they 5 brought up the inmate and that's when, you 6 know, we realized, "Oh, that was the guy that 7 went to court and didn't come back." 8 MR. : Where can the daily log be 9 found or accessed? 10 MS. : This? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MS. : SENTRY. 13 MR. : And who would have access to 14 it? 15 MS. : Mainly everybody in the 16 institution. 17 MR. : Everyone can access it. Can 18 everyone make the changes on it? 19 MS. : No, you can't make changes on 20 this. 21 MR. : Who can make changes on that? 22 MS. : You cannot make changes to 23 this. 24 MR. : So, that is basically the 25 keyed in information. EFTA00115533 58 1 2 3 4 MS. : This is like a tracker. MR. : Okay. MS. : It just shows you all the moves and when it was moved - when the person 5 was moved. So this, you cannot just change. 6 Only thing you can do is put in what you want. 7 It's just a log, it just pulls up a log. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : So this is not nothing you 10 11 can change, no. MR. : What about the Lieutenant's 12 log? Who would have access to that? 13 MS. : The Lieutenants. 14 MR. : Does anyone else have access? 15 MS. : Maybe the Captain. 16 17 MR. from? : Where can it be accessed 18 MS. : The Lieutenant's office. 19 MR. : Can it be accessed from 20 Control? 21 MS. : I don't know about now, but 22 23 at that time, MR. no. : Okay. Do you recall if you 24 reviewed the daily log that day? 25 MS. : No, I don't remember. EFTA00115534 59 1 MR. : And based on that, it shows 2 inmate Reyes is pre-remove. As per your 3 understanding, that means that he left the 4 institution and he's not coming back. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you utilize the 7 daily log as part of your job every day? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And how do you utilize it? 10 MS. : To make sure I key the inmate 11 out that's out of the institution. So account 12 for how many inmates I keyed out. That's what 13 I use it for in R&D. 14 MR. : Okay. And you're not sure 15 what shift you worked but you believe that you 16 worked in R&D between 8:00 and 4:00 or 12:00 17 and 8:00? 18 MS. : 8:00 to 4:00 or maybe - I was 19 only working two shifts at that time. I'm 20 doing 12:00 to 8:00 now. But it might have 21 been 8:00 to 4:00 or 2:00 to 10:00. One of 22 those two hours. Between those two shifts. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Because at one point, I only 25 strictly worked the evening shift, so. EFTA00115535 60 1 MR. : When inmates leave through 2 R&D, do you normally see them leaving through 3 R&D? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you recall having a 6 conversation with Reyes at all? 7 MS. : I couldn't tell you if I 8 spoke to that man or not. I speak to so many 9 inmates, I don't know. 10 MR. : Well, the better question is, 11 if you (Indiscernible *00:48:06) -. 12 MS. 13 he looks like. 14 MR. : I couldn't even tell you what : That's my next question. So 15 you wouldn't happen to know who Reyes - what -. 16 MS. : I would only know who he is 17 by ID-ing him, his name and his number and his 18 ID card when he comes on down. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : There's so many inmates in 21 here. I don't know. 22 MR. : Now when did you become aware 23 of Reyes being moved from the MCC? Officially 24 become aware. 25 MS. : I think when he spoke about - EFTA00115536 61 1 when they - when it was, you know, rumored that 2 the inmate, "Oh, they put him in a cell by 3 himself," and when I heard about that, you 4 know, it was like, "Oh, well, no, his actual, 5 his bunkie just didn't come back from court." 6 MR. : When did you hear about this? 7 Was it the same day? Was it in the evening? 8 MS. : No, it was around the time of 9 when all the commotion was going on after his 10 passing. 11 MR. : So this is the next day. 12 MS. : Pretty much, yeah. 13 MR. : Do you recall if there was 14 any conversation in regards to -. 15 MR. : What is the day of his 16 passing, the day after August 9th I think is 17 what you mean. Is that what you mean? 18 MS. : No, like, during the time he 19 passed, you know. You know, a lot of people 20 were saying, speculating though, he was a 21 suicidal person, he was placed in a cell by 22 himself and that's when, you know, it was like, 23 "No, well, he did have a bunkie." His cell 24 mate went out to court and that's when we all 25 became aware of, you know, who his cell mate EFTA00115537 62 1 was. 2 MR. : And what conversations 3 were had with regards to the cell mate and 4 leaving for court and not coming back at that 5 time? 6 MS. : I don't think anyone was 7 pretty much aware that that was his cell mate 8 that didn't come back, so I don't - it was just 9 that the conversation was, "Oh, he was placed 10 in a cell by himself," That was what was 11 speculated. 12 MR. : Now, working in R&D, when 13 inmates do not come back from court, does R&D 14 then notify custody that these people didn't 15 come back? How does that work? 16 MS. : The Control Center tracks who 17 got keyed out. The Lieutenant, they'll track 18 who got keyed out and that's primarily it. 19 MR. : So R&D never contacts 20 either Control or the Housing Unit or the 21 Lieutenant saying, "Hey, these are people that 22 went out and these are people that came back. 23 These people are not coming back." 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : So R&D would not have EFTA00115538 63 1 notified, for instance, the SHU Saying Reyes 2 didn't come back? 3 MS. : They would be - not unless 4 they called us to say they had a bad count or 5 they had a miscount or something or maybe the 6 inmate left to court and didn't come back, but 7 no. 8 MR. : Okay. Because they - a 9 lot of people have told us they usually get 10 calls from R&D saying, "Hey, this guy didn't 11 come back." That's -. 12 MS. : There are times that we do - 13 like if an inmate has property upstairs, we 14 might say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming 15 back, pack up his property." 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : There have been times, yes. 18 MR. : But in this case, with 19 him being pre-removed, there would have been no 20 notification that would have been made by R&D 21 saying, "He didn't come back?" 22 MS. : Not if we didn't need to, no. 23 MR. : No? So it would only be 24 a need be basis, not - because a lot of them 25 were saying, like, "Hey, he was pre-removed but EFTA00115539 64 1 we don't know if he's actually, you know, 2 definitely removed and not coming back until 3 about 4:00 p.m. 4 MS. : Right. That is true. And 5 not even 4:00 p.m. because there are times that 6 the judges, the courts are late. Some inmates 7 don't come back until 7:00, 8 o'clock at night. 8 MR. : Well, they did clarify 9 that. They said, "Usually until 4:00 p.m. and 10 as late as 8:00 p.m." 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : But in those instances 13 though, R&D doesn't contact whomever and say, 14 "Hey, this guy didn't come back." Or is it -. 15 MS. : The only people that would 16 keep track of that would be the Control Center 17 and the Lieutenant's office. 18 MR. : Okay, so 19 MS. : You know, we key them out and 20 whatever we key out, we send down to the 21 Control Center so the Control Center has a copy 22 of who was keyed out and they kind of go in the 23 system and check and see if the inmates were 24 keyed out. It's like a checks and balance for 25 the institution because you might have an EFTA00115540 65 1 inmate on the list showing that he left, but 2 he's not keyed out of the system. So there's 3 supposed to be like a checks and balance for us 4 upstairs as well. 5 MR. : Okay. So, when people 6 argue that they didn't know that Reyes wasn't 7 definitely coming back, how do they determine 8 and at what point do they determine, "He's not 9 back, Epstein needs a new cell mate?" 10 MS. : If they don't know he needs a 11 cell mate, nobody would know, nobody would -. 12 MR. : But if they know he needs 13 a cell mate, at what point do they say, "Yeah, 14 Reyes isn't back, we need to get him a new cell 15 mate?" 16 MS. : I couldn't tell you because 17 you don't know if that inmate - if you don't 18 know that inmate is coming back, you don't know 19 to say, "Hey, so and so needs a cell mate." 20 And if you don't know, you just don't know. 21 MR. : Okay. So, at what point 22 should Control then at some point though call 23 the SHU And say, "Reyes isn't coming back?" 24 MS. : If the count is not bad, they 25 wouldn't know to call them and say - they EFTA00115541 66 1 wouldn't say that, no. 2 MR. : So the SHU very well may 3 never have been contacted or would have been 4 contacted saying, "Reyes isn't coming back, 5 consider him gone." 6 MS. : Correct. 7 MR. : Okay. So they would have 8 only known that based upon doing rounds and 9 counts is what you're saying? 10 MS. : Right. But if they don't 11 know that he needs a cell mate, because I don't 12 believe there was any notification that another 13 individual had to be placed in a cell with him 14 so, nobody would know that. Even if you are 15 making rounds and counting your unit, you 16 wouldn't know that we need - if there's no 17 notification. 18 MR. : Well, notifications were 19 made and the people are saying that they passed 20 it along to other shifts saying, "Yes, he's 21 required to have a cell mate." However, 22 they're saying, "Reyes is gone, possibly not 23 returning. Make sure you get him a bunkie if 24 he doesn't." So it's kind of like, at what 25 point does it determine -- EFTA00115542 67 1 MS. : Hm. 2 MR. : -- when is Reyes not 3 getting a bunkie - when is Reyes not coming 4 home, coming back. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : We've also been told by a 7 number of people though, they say, "R&D would 8 call us to say, `Yeah, Reyes isn't coming 9 back,'" but to you, you're saying, "No, that 10 doesn't happen. We don't call SHU, we wouldn't 11 have called them to say Reyes -." 12 MS. : It's a possibility we could 13 have called, but then sometimes we don't call. 14 You know, if there's a miscount, there would be 15 no reason for us to call, we would just key the 16 inmate out. Sometimes they'll call us back and 17 say, "Hey, inmate so and so went out to court, 18 is he coming back?" Some units will call us 19 and ask. 20 MR. : So they'll call you 21 rather than the other way around. 22 MS. : Sometimes they'll call us, 23 yep. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MS. : But the only way they'll know EFTA00115543 68 1 that the inmate might - and then, because of 2 the shift change, you might have an officer 3 from these specific set of hours and then now 4 you have a new officer coming in at these 5 specific set of hours. They won't know who 6 went out to court unless they read their court 7 list or they look at their log, they probably 8 wouldn't know. And if they're doing a count 9 and their count is what it's supposed to be, 10 they won't know. 11 MR. : So you're a very unique 12 person that we're talking to as both - has both 13 sets of knowledge with the fact that you've 14 worked with custody as well as non-custody and 15 you know how these things work when people are 16 removed. If the people in the SHU knew, and 17 let's say, let's just for this example, say 18 everybody in the SHU knows -- 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : -- that Epstein is 21 required to have a cell mate. Reyes leaves at 22 8:30, he has a pre-removal. At what time do 23 you believe they should have reassigned a new 24 cell mate to Epstein? 25 MS. : Well, if they knew that he EFTA00115544 69 1 was a pre-removal, then they would be trying to 2 work on that immediately as soon as possible. 3 MR. : So if -. 4 MS. : But that's if they knew. 5 MR. : So if they knew, let's 6 say -. 7 MS. : And if that was what was 8 required. 9 MR. : Let's say the OIC 10 absolutely knows he's WAB likely -- 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- not to return. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : Do you believe that he 15 should have immediately then started working on 16 a new cell mate? 17 MS. : He would notify the Lieutenant 18 know, "Hey, move - that's what he would do - 19 - 20 MR. : And if -. 21 MS. -- if that was what was 22 required. 23 MR. : So and if their arguments 24 are, let's say the Lieutenants and the OICs are 25 arguing, "That's premature, he could always EFTA00115545 70 1 2 3 4 return. So we pass it on to the next shift saying -." MS. : Well, it is premature if you don't know that the inmate is not coming back. 5 MR. : In this case though, if 6 he's WAB, do you believe it's still premature? 7 MS. : No, if he is WAB, but looking 8 at this, I don't know. 9 MR. : No, no, no. 10 MS. : But 11 MR. : I'm just saying 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- if he was WAB. 14 MS. : If he was -. 15 MR. : So if the OIC is saying, 16 "Yeah, he was WAB, he had his brown paper bag, 17 he had all of his stuff." 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : And so think of that as 20 let's say that's what happened. 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : At that point, do you 23 think it's still premature or you think at time 24 it's appropriate? 25 MS. : No, if it was - okay. If it EFTA00115546 71 1 was known that this inmate was leaving and he 2 wasn't coming back and if it was known that 3 this individual needed to have someone else in 4 the cell with him, then yes, at that time, it 5 would be required to replace or move him in a 6 cell with somebody else. So, yeah. 7 MR. : So when you're saying 8 "known" though, so, I mean, known that he's 9 WAS, so does that -. 10 MS. : Known that he's WAB and also 11 known that this individual requires a cell mate 12 at all time, cannot be housed alone. Now, 13 there are some inmates that have to rec in cell 14 alone and there are signs on their doors and 15 there are some inmates that might be required 16 to have a cell mate. But if there's no 17 notification, and I work a unit and this is not 18 my normal unit and I'm working this unit and 19 I'm just filling in here and there and I'm 20 working and I don't know and there's nothing 21 placed on the walls that state that or on this 22 inmate's - on the door or maybe on my 23 clipboard, I wouldn't know that. 24 MR. : No, no, no. So what I'm 25 saying, and I'm not talking about - I think EFTA00115547 72 1 you're probably specifically talking about like 2 Tova and Michael Thomas. I'm talking about in 3 the morning at 8:38 a.m., prior to that time -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- they get a court list, 6 WAB, the OIC says, "Yeah, he's WAB, he's likely 7 not to return, he's got his bag, you know, I'm 8 taking him down, I'm giving him off." I know, 9 he says, "I know Epstein is required to have a 10 cell mate." 11 MS. : Oh, well, if he knows it. 12 MR. : But, is it a legitimate 13 argument in your opinion to say, "Placing 14 Epstein with a new cell mate is premature 15 because Reyes could return." Is that a valid 16 argument? 17 MS. : Well, based on what you just 18 said, knowing -- 19 MR. : With WAB and with knowing 20 -- 21 MS. : -- knowing -- 22 MR. : -- Epstein requires, 23 right. 24 MS. : -- that he's WAB, that would 25 not be premature because he's leaving. EFTA00115548 73 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : Now, if for some reason it 3 gets canceled and they say, "Hey, we're not 4 moving this inmate, we're going to move him at 5 a later time," because those things do happen. 6 His trip - he got canceled. But knowing that 7 he's going to be leaving, I don't think that 8 that would be premature, no. 9 MR. : So if he leaves at 8:38 10 in the morning and the OIC shift ends at 2:00 11 p.m., does that - is there -- 12 MS. : 4:00. 13 MR. : -- would he know that 14 that trip got canceled? I guess the way I 15 would be asking, he knows the guy left at 8:38 16 WAB and, I guess, by that time, I would think 17 by 2:00 p.m., if a trip got canceled they would 18 know, correct? 19 MS. : Yeah, because the inmate 20 would have went back upstairs. 21 MR. : Right. So 22 MS. : He would have went back to 23 the unit. 24 MR. : -- how often do inmates 25 that go WAB and their trips don't get canceled, EFTA00115549 74 1 how often do those inmates actually return? 2 MS. : Oh, they go upstairs 3 immediately. 4 MR. : No, no, no. So I'm 5 saying, if Reyes is listed as WAB and he left 6 at 8:30 in the morning, his trip didn't get 7 canceled by 2:00 p.m. because he never came 8 back upstairs. How often do the WAB inmates 9 actually come back to the institution? 10 MS. : It has happened with inmates 11 going on an airlift. The Marshals take inmates 12 all the way out of the institution and then 13 have to bring them all the way back. It has 14 happened. 15 MR. : And let's say if -- 16 MS. : On occasion. 17 MR. : -- out of 100 -- 18 MS. : I'll say -. 19 MR. : WABs. 20 MS. : I'll say about, if I had to 21 count, maybe about - it's happened, it's 22 happened. 23 MR. : But I mean, does it 24 happen like very random and seldomly or does it 25 happen like, ah, one out of five times this EFTA00115550 75 1 happens? Or are we talking about like one out 2 100 or one of 1,000? 3 MS. : I'll say maybe like 10 out of 4 100. 5 MR. : So about 10 percent of 6 the time it does happen? 7 MS. : It has happened, yep. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. Yep. 10 MR. : So 10 percent of the 11 time? All right. 12 MS. : It has happened. 13 MR. : So then 14 MS. : It might be something with 15 the airlift, the paperwork is not right. 16 MR. : So then -- 17 MS. : The airlift 18 MR. : -- with keeping that in 19 mind that 10 percent of the time that has 20 happened, then do you believe that is slightly 21 a valid argument to say, "Yeah, we know that he 22 needs a new cell mate but we don't think it's 23 appropriate to do it in this shift, it should 24 be done on the next shift when we verify he's 25 in fact not coming back." EFTA00115551 76 1 MS. : Yeah. I would say that is 2 appropriate. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because you don't know. You 5 just don't know. Anything is subject to 6 change. So I would say that is appropriate. 7 MR. : Okay. Now it's different 8 with, you're saying airlift. Now we're talking 9 about pre-remove specifically -- 10 MS. : Well, airlifts -- 11 MR. : -- for court. 12 MS. -- could be pre-removed. 13 MR. : But what I'm saying is 14 MS. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- it's WAB because the 16 person is going to court. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Nothing to do with 19 transports getting messed up. 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : If this inmate is WAB 22 going to court, how often do the inmates going 23 to court WAB actually return? 24 MS. : They mostly go. 25 MR. : So is it like maybe one EFTA00115552 77 1 in 100? 2 MS. : Maybe one in 100 that might 3 have came back, but most of the time they go. 4 MR. : So even one in 100 is 5 like, yeah, no, they're pretty much always 6 gone? 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So then that argument of 9 10 MS. : It got to be something 11 drastic that they might have come back, but 12 most of the time they go. 13 MR. : So that argument that we 14 needed to wait until verification, that really 15 doesn't hold weight then if they know he was 16 going to court WAS. 17 MS. : If they know he was going to 18 court WAB, yeah. 19 MR. : Then the argument doesn't 20 hold weight? 21 MS. : It's a catch 22 because I've 22 seen so many things that have happened that you 23 might think somebody is gone and they bring him 24 back. 25 MR. : Sure. But it sounds like EFTA00115553 78 1 - 2 MS. : He might get on that side and 3 something might come up in his paperwork where 4 they're like, "Uh-oh, we got a new case, we got 5 a new charge. Oh, we're not transferring him. 6 We got to sort this out." I mean, it has 7 happened where somebody has come back to the 8 jail, but most of the time, they do go. 9 MR. : And it sounds like that's 10 extremely rare 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- circumstance. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : All right. 15 MS. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So at that point, do you 17 think that they should have taken action 18 immediately if they knew it was WAB? 19 MR. : WAB going to court. 20 MR. : Going to court. Knowing the 21 fact that Epstein needed a cell mate. We know 22 Reyes left, Epstein needed a cell mate. The 23 OIC and the SHU officers knew that he needed a 24 cell mate. Should they have taken action 25 immediately? EFTA00115554 79 1 MS. : Maybe they should have 2 notified their supervisor. 3 MR. : Who would they have notified 4 if this -. 5 MS. : The SHU Lieutenant and let 6 them know that, "Hey 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:03:51) 8 no SHU Lieutenant (Indiscernible *01:03:52). 9 Should it be the Ops Lieutenant (Indiscernible 10 *01:03:55) Lieutenant? 11 MS. : The Ops or the Acting 12 Lieutenant notify, "Hey, we got bunk inmate so 13 up with so and so, he can't be housed by 14 himself." 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : But, like I said, 17 communication around here is not at its best. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MS. : So what should have happened, 20 what should have taken place, might not 21 necessarily happen because everybody doesn't 22 know everything that's going on around here. 23 MR. : Hm. 24 MS. : Everybody does not 25 communicate the way that they should, so you EFTA00115555 80 1 might know it, but just because you know it, 2 you might assume I know it and we're working 3 together. Not necessarily true. 4 MR. : Sure. And yeah, we would 5 only go off of what people tell us directly -- 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : Like, "Did you know 8 this?" "Yes, I knew it." "Okay." 9 MS. : Right. 10 MR. : You know, so 11 MS. : Because it's not - like, if I 12 was working up there, that's not my normal 13 unit. If I was working up there, I would not 14 know that. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. : You know, if I'm coming from 17 another department and that's not my steady 18 post, I would not know that. 19 MR. : Absolutely. 20 MS. : So, what should happen -. 21 MR. : Yeah, and that's why 22 we're listing people like OIC, SHU Lieutenant, 23 Ops Lieutenant, Activities Lieutenant, these 24 people that -. 25 MS. : Or maybe Psychology. EFTA00115556 81 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : You know, so it's hard to say 3 yes and no, but if, you know, someone knew, 4 then yes. But everybody that works in this 5 institution, we're all over the place 6 sometimes. We don't know, we don't know 7 everything about every unit. So that's the 8 unfortunate part. 9 MR. : Do you recall anyone calling 10 R&D looking for the status of Reyes that day? 11 MS. : I don't remember, no. I'm 12 not going - I don't remember that, no. 13 MR. : What was your question? 14 MS. : Did she recall anyone from 15 the SHU calling inquiring the status of Reyes 16 that day. 17 MR. : All right. 18 MR. : Do you have anything else on 19 that topic before -. 20 MR. 21 of beat it. 22 MR. : I don't think so, we kind : Now, you worked Control 23 August 10th night? 24 MS. : Uh -huh. 25 MR. : As a CO in Control, when EFTA00115557 82 1 would you be notified that an inmate is being 2 removed? 3 MS. : When would I be notified -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MS. : -- that an inmate is being 6 removed? 7 MR. : Yeah, if you're working in 8 Control. 9 MS. : Well, that would be -. 10 MR. : Well, she just said R&D 11 doesn't call them to tell them. 12 MS. : No, we give them - we send 13 them paperwork. So, you have a Control two 14 number person in the Control Center that 15 verifies our key out moves against our 16 paperwork we send them. So this is what the 17 Control Center would use as well to track -- 18 MR. : A daily log? 19 MS. : -- to track the moves and 20 make sure that these individuals are keyed out. 21 So, now as a Control Center Officer, you might 22 call as the number two, I mean, I said the 23 number one because the number two person does 24 it. The number two person, which is an 25 accounts and assignment person, they would call EFTA00115558 83 1 - this is primarily on day watch and evening 2 watch because there's no movement on morning 3 watch, not unless it's an emergency, but you're 4 not moving nobody on morning watch. So on day 5 watch and evening watch, if you see that 6 inmates were moved around or a counselor calls 7 you in Control and say, "Hey, I'm moving inmate 8 so and so from this unit to this unit," then as 9 a Control Center Officer, what I would do, I'm 10 not going to say what everybody else would do, 11 I would call over the radio, "Hey, unit 12 officers, if you lost an inmate or you gained 13 an inmate, call Control and verify your base 14 count." And I would say - they would say, "Oh, 15 inmate so and so left and I have 87." Or, they 16 might give me a wrong count. I'm like, "No, 17 that's bad, you need to check your base count, 18 verify who left the unit." But that's what I 19 would do. But most often times, the Control 20 Center Officer would look at this and see who's 21 moved and verify it with an E-1 and make sure 22 everything is accurate. 23 MR. : So once they are notified, 24 what would the Control Officer update that you 25 wanted? EFTA00115559 84 1 MS. : We have what we call the 2 running board. So, with a running board, you 3 have the starting base of one unit and then the 4 ending base of the unit. So if an inmate went 5 out to the hospital, might have been 86, he 6 went out to hospital, 87, he came - I mean, 85, 7 he came back now, his base is back to 86. So, 8 it would be 9 MR. : Nothing like this. This is 10 the -- 11 MS. : Uh-huh. Yeah. 12 MR. : This is the E-1 document, is 13 this what you're talking about? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. No, that's an E-1, 15 I'm talking about a running board. It's just a 16 dummy document we create just to track all the 17 moves to like a paper to just verify the counts 18 -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : -- basically checks and 21 balance. So like, if I see that this inmate 22 was moved from five, he was pre-remove, and 23 that unit count was 85, I would just write, 24 "Inmate pre-removed," and I would have a paper 25 log of what that unit count should be. EFTA00115560 85 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : Because even my paper log 3 might be accurate but my computer log might be 4 wrong because this person might not have keyed 5 the inmate out. 6 MR. : So, let's talk about that. 7 Has there been situations where inmates get 8 moved around and not get keyed out? 9 MS. : Yeah. That has happened. 10 MR. : How does that happen? Isn't 11 there balance and checks to make sure that 12 nothing like that happens? 13 MS. : There are supposed to be 14 balance and checks, yes. But sometimes people 15 move inmates and they fail to report to maybe 16 the officer or they fail to notify the Control, 17 "I'm moving inmate from this unit to this 18 unit," or something might happen on a unit, an 19 inmate might get locked up and you're in the 20 Control Center, you know, you're doing whatever 21 you hear, an emergency on a unit, you don't 22 know what's going on, you don't know if the 23 inmate is going out to the hospital until 24 somebody actually physically calls you and say, 25 "Hey, I've got an inmate that's (Indiscernible EFTA00115561 86 1 *01:10:14)," if you're not looking at the 2 camera, you see them moving this inmate from 3 this unit and walking him into SHU and you'll 4 call that unit, "Hey, you got one locked - who 5 got locked up?" You might call the Unit 6 Officer and ask those questions. So, it has 7 happened. 8 MR. : Whose responsibility would it 9 be if they're moving an inmate, to key it in? 10 MS. : To key it in? Depending on 11 what type of move it is. If it's a unit to 12 unit move, that would be the Unit Management, 13 Unit Team. If an inmate is getting locked up 14 from the unit and going to SHU, the Control 15 Center Officer might move that unit, move that 16 inmate from the unit to SHU or SHU might key 17 that inmate into SHU. So, I just depends who 18 does it. 19 MR. : So, and it can be one of 20 those things that in a situation, let's say an 21 inmate gets moved. The SHU Officer can be 22 like, "Ah, no Control will do it." And Control 23 Lieutenant will be like, "No, the SHU will do 24 it." Is it one person that's actually 25 responsible to make sure that it gets keyed in? EFTA00115562 87 1 MS. : Well, a lot of times things 2 happen. Like I said, around here, you might 3 have a Lieutenant go to a unit and then walk an 4 inmate out and the inmate gets locked up. Or 5 you might have an inmate that's suicidal and he 6 gets placed on suicide watch so now he's not in 7 the unit, he's in suicide watch. Or you might 8 have an inmate that was taken off of suicide 9 watch, might be put in a housing unit or SHU, 10 you don't know unless somebody notifies you 11 because when you're in the Control, you're 12 answering phones, you're looking at a keypad, 13 you might be looking up and down but you're not 14 constantly on the camera so you won't know 15 unless somebody actually notifies you and say, 16 "Hey, we're moving inmate so and so." So, a 17 lot of times, you just have to - if you got an 18 inmate that you received a new inmate, call 19 Control, verify your base because you won't 20 always know everything. 21 MR. : So you're saying it should 22 have been on the SHU Officer to make sure that, 23 "Hey, listen, this inmate is being moved." Did 24 she even notify Control, "Hey, listen." 25 MS. : If the officer of a unit EFTA00115563 88 1 knows that his inmate got locked up, he's 2 supposed to be calling Control saying, "I've 3 got an inmate that's locked up, he went to 4 SHU." SHU now needs to be calling Control, 5 "Hey, I got one, so and so on my base count." 6 Everybody is supposed to be calling. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Everybody should be calling, 9 not just 10 MR. : But you did just say 11 though that they - like for instance, SHU. SHU 12 can call Control and say, "Hey, I just want to 13 verify my base, what do you got?" 14 MS. : No, they wouldn't say, "I 15 want to verify my base, what do you got?" You 16 would say, "I want to verify my base, I have 17 87." And then Control would say, "No, that's 18 good, no, that's bad." 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : So now, as the officer, what 21 I would do, I would go around counting my 22 inmates in my unit and I would look at my 23 roster and see who went out to court. But 24 that's what I would do. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00115564 89 1 MS. : I can't say what everybody 2 else would do. 3 MR. : Yeah, no, and trust me, 4 we've talked to a lot of people and everybody 5 does things differently. 6 MS. : Yes. So. 7 MR. : That's why we're trying 8 to figure out -- 9 MS. : I like knowing -- 10 MR. : -- should they -. 11 MS. -- what I need to know on my 12 unit. I'm just nosy like that. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 MS. : So, I want to know what's 15 going on, who is in my unit, who is coming out 16 of my unit, you know, so, I'm verifying my 17 stuff on my own. 18 MR. : Okay. No, that's a good 19 way to do it. So, are you aware of though 20 anybody calling, for instance, Control and 21 getting control? Somehow, however crafty that 22 they use their wordings to actually give them 23 the base count? 24 MS. : I've never heard. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00115565 90 1 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 2 I know of. I'm not going to say it hasn't 3 happened, but I don't know. 4 MR. : Right, right. 5 MR. : I'm going to show you some 6 documents. Before that, any document that I 7 show you, I'm going to ask you to initial and 8 date on top. 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : You're not attesting to it, 11 it's just to show that that's a document that 12 we -- 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- showed you. 15 MS. : Right here? 16 MR. : Yeah. Just anywhere on top 17 is fine. 7/15/21. 18 MS. : I want to work with you guys. 19 MR. : Well, it sounds like you 20 got the qualification with those degrees. And 21 with the knowledge, we do a ton of BOP stuff. 22 MR. 23 MS. 24 record. 25 MR. : This one too. Just the top. : It's got to be off the : So, are you familiar with the EFTA00115566 91 1 E-ls? Control documents? The first one that 2 I'm going to show you is this would be for 3 August 9th at 5:00 a.m. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Right? This is the E-1 6 document controlling - Control document. The 7 SHU shows 77 inmates. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Now, I'm going to show you 10 the daily log. Are you aware of the 11 Lieutenant's log? 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Inmate movements? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Okay. Now this is the day 16 watch, document is the day watch Lieutenant's 17 log for August 9th. We can start off, we'll 18 look at the inmate movements, it shows that -. 19 MR. : You need to start at 77 20 to match up with that -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. -- 5:00 a.m. 23 MR. : So, it says 77 at the 5:00 24 a.m. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115567 92 1 MR. : It matches up -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- at 77, when they did the 4 count at 8:00 a.m. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : It's still at 77 with five in 7 (Indiscernible *01:15:25). 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Now, this shows at 8:38 a.m., 10 we can see Reyes was removed. 11 MS. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Right? Pre-remove? 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : The count comes down to 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. -- 76. Now the next movement 17 out of the SHU that we see is at 3:15 p.m. It 18 says, "Inmate Fernandez." 19 MS. : Uh-huh. Wait a minute. He -. 20 MR. : So, yes, there is a -- 21 MS. : Placed own dry cell. 22 MR. -- confusion on that. 23 MS. : Placed on dry cell from SHU? 24 MR. : Yeah. So let's look at the - 25 so, where do you (Indiscernible *01:15:58) EFTA00115568 93 1 understand, where is the dry cell? 2 MS. : I thought it was in SHU. 3 MR. : Okay. So let's look at the 4 statement up here. On top it says, "Inmate 5 Fernandez on dry cell with staff watch and 6 R&D." 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : Does that clarify it for you? 9 MS. : Okay, okay. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : So at this point, inmate 13 Fernandez is removed and the count comes down 14 to -- 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. -- 75. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Okay. Now we're looking at 19 the 5:00 p.m. count for August 9th. 20 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Or 4:00 p.m., sorry. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count for August 24 9th. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115569 94 1 MR. : Right. It shows 76 -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- starting. Reyes is 4 removed, right? Reyes is removed. Epstein is 5 sitting in attorney conference? 6 7 MS. here. : Uh-huh. Yes, that's right 8 MR. : Right here? And inmate 9 Fernandez is removed. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : But it still shows 75. It 12 should have been 74. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. This is - they got 14 15 76. This is something? 4 o'clock. Did they say 16 MR. : And this is removed inmate. 17 MR. : Keep on showing her the 18 other one though 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 21 MR. really that : -- because that's not 22 MR. : Give me Fernando's. 23 MR. : -- that's not really that 24 eye opening because that's 3:15 to 4:00. Now 25 show her the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight count. EFTA00115570 95 1 MR. : The next one is over here 2 too, there's some inmates that moved in and 3 out. Now let's go to the 10:00 p.m. count. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And go over the inmates 6 that - so you can follow the numbers. 7 MR. : So just look at -. 8 MS. : Pull my chair closer so I can 9 see that. 10 MR. : Yeah. Is that better? 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Now, this is the evening 13 watch document. The other sheet now if you 14 start looking at inmate Hemmingway, 6:34 p.m., 15 he's removed from the SHU, goes to ES. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Right? And the next one is 18 inmate Reed gets moved from ZA to GS. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So, now we lost two more 21 inmates, that's 73. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : Then we gain two inmates, the 24 SHU gains two inmates, 8:21, Felix and Williams 25 from ZA to suicide watch in the SHU. EFTA00115571 96 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : Right? 3 MS. : Wait a minute. From ZA 4 MR. : Sorry, sorry. 5 MS. : No, so he came from SHU. 6 MR. : From SHU to suicide watch, so 7 now we are down to 71. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Right? And then, we have 10 Garcia. 11 MS. : Wait, I'm sorry. Hold on. 12 This is 70, that's one, that's another one, 13 (Indiscernible *01:18:24), okay, that's R&D. 14 One, two - okay, I see why it's two. Okay, 15 that's two, right? 16 MR. : That's two. And then, you 17 see -. 18 MS. : So it's the suicide watch, 19 right? 20 MR. : Yeah. And you see one inmate 21 was gained 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- Garcia Penas (Phonetic Sp. 24 *01:18:37) moved over. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115572 97 1 MR. : I'm going to show you the 2 10:00 p.m. count. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. count on the 5 E-1, what does that show? 6 MS. : 73. 7 MR. : Okay. On the last couple of 8 pages, can you find the one for ZA? ZA would 9 be the SHU, right, the count slip? 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What does it show? 12 MS. : 73 at 10:00. Uh-huh. 13 MR. : But 73 what? 14 MS. : Plus one. 15 MR. : What does that plus one mean? 16 MS. : That means somebody was 17 there, plus one. So it's somebody that's there 18 but he's, I guess he's not accounted for but 19 he's there. 20 MR. : But can you, by looking at 21 this document, can you figure out who that is? 22 MR. : So does that mean, what 23 you're saying is 73 plus one is actually 74 24 that they're thinking that's in there? 25 MS. : Uh-huh. Not unless - well, EFTA00115573 98 1 normally what it is, is -. 2 MR. : Before you start asking 3 that that question, just show her the other 4 thing so that she's not going to try to figure 5 this out backwards. Let her reverse engineer 6 it. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And then explain to her 9 what happened and then let her answer those 10 questions. 11 MR. : I'm going to show you the 12 12:00 p.m. count too. This is 12:00 a.m. 13 count, there's August 10th -- 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : 12:00 a.m. count. Now, were 16 you working in Control at that time? 17 MR. : That was when 18 you said the -- 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Ops Lieutenant 21 actually took the count, but you were on duty 22 at that time. 23 MR. : Do you recall that at all? 24 MS. : I don't remember at the 25 moment, but I know I worked in Control that EFTA00115574 99 1 2 3 4 day. I know she came in there and she took one count. MR. : Were you present when she took that count? 5 MR. : I think you start at 6 12:00 a.m. in Control, right? 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : You're 12:00 a.m. 9 MR. : 12:00 a.m. until -. 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So, on this one 12 MR. : So by looking at that, 13 can you tell who it was that took the count? 14 That's the E-1. 15 MS. : That's somebody's signature. 16 That's not - that's somebody else. That might 17 be her signature. 18 MR. _: 19 MS. : Uh-huh. It might be her 20 21 signature, MR. but that's not -- : So we can tell you -- 22 23 MS. it. : -- the person that prepared 24 MR. took 25 that count. We'll just let you - so she took EFTA00115575 100 1 2 3 4 the count. MS. : Uh-huh. MR. : Do you remember being present that day when she was there taking the 5 count? 6 MS. : I was present, yes. 7 MR. : All right. Now show her 8 the numbers verse what the counts looks at. 9 MR. : So, E-1 shows 72. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What does the ZA show? 12 MS. : 73. 13 MR. : You see a discrepancy? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Is that a good count to you? 16 MS. Huh-uh. 17 MR. : Do you recall 18 mentioning the fact that there was a 19 discrepancy in the count? 20 MS. : I don't recall any of that, 21 no. 22 MR. : Do you recall her -. 23 MS. : Because I didn't prepare the 24 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 25 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is EFTA00115576 101 1 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 2 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 3 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 4 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 5 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 6 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 7 We got to do a pre-announcement and going over 8 equipment and stuff, all those type of things, 9 so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware of this 10 if I didn't prepare it, no. 11 MR. : So what happened? Was 12 figured out - and this is where 13 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 14 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 15 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 16 of the SHU. 17 MS. : Ah. 18 MR. : However, they're still 19 reporting - because he was never keyed out, 20 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : -- although there's only 23 72 inmates in the SHU. 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. somehow EFTA00115577 102 1 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 2 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 3 whomever, keys him out. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And so what we want to 6 know is do you remember that happening or the 7 circumstances around that? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 10 tell you anything about if these counts were 11 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 12 and the 12:00 a.m.? 13 MS. : This just shows that this was 14 conducted. 15 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 16 counts in the SHU. 17 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 18 were wrong. 19 MR. : So all of them are saying 20 73 all though there's only 72 people. 21 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 22 work in SHU, you work in R&D -- 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- and also you can look 25 at the -. EFTA00115578 103 1 MS. : Well -. 2 MR. : So these R&D slips show 3 that there's one person in there. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Although - 6 MS. : This is 9 -. 7 MR. : Nine south. 8 MR. : So what does that mean? So 9 R&D, so on this here, the midnight one, right? 10 MR. : And also, just please 11 take note of the checks that are all over them. 12 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 13 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 14 just trying to piece this thing together. 15 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 16 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 17 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 18 not key in because only certain individuals 19 have the authority and capacity to key those 20 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 21 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 22 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 23 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team 24 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 25 because that would show that that's the body EFTA00115579 104 1 that's there that we cannot account for but 2 he's there. That would have - I don't know 3 what this is. 4 MR. : Do you recognize whose 5 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 9 by chance? 10 MS. : No, that's -. 11 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 12 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 13 we still can't figure it out. That's what 14 we're still trying to figure out. We would 15 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 16 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 17 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 18 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 19 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. 20 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 21 checks off the slips, it's because they're 22 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 23 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff 24 signature print of two staff members. That's 25 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count EFTA00115580 105 1 slip to verify that -. 2 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 3 MR. : Is that telling to you at 4 all that the fact that these aren't checked 5 off? 6 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 7 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 8 know. 9 MR. : But those plus ones, 10 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 11 would that make sense with whether it would be 12 a plus one on R&D and a plus one though on ZA? 13 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 14 the only thing I can gather is that they're 15 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 16 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in R&D. 17 That's the only thing -. 18 MR. : And that would be my 19 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's 20 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 21 R&D. 22 MS. : Right. 23 MR. : But that 73 is still off 24 so I guess what the question would be is, the 25 fact that they're using the number that Control EFTA00115581 106 1 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 2 housing unit. 3 MS. : Can I just -- 4 MR. : Absolutely. 5 MS. read this again. 6 MR. : It also tells us that 7 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 8 want to know what it tells you. 9 MR. : Which one do you need? 10 MS. : Yeah, I don't see 11 MR. : It's the midnight one. 12 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me 13 you had another log. 14 MR. : The 5:00 p 15 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 16 MR. : So there was another one, but 17 that's 18 MR. : There's the August 10th 19 log. Okay. 20 MR. : But I didn't show you the 21 August 10th. 22 MS. : No, you showed me something 23 with Lieutenant Perez. 24 MR. : I know, that's in one -- 25 MS. : Oh. EFTA00115582 107 1 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 2 MS. : Oh, okay. 3 MR. : This -. 4 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. So -. 6 MS. : All right. I just want to -. 7 MR. : There's a day watch and 8 night. 9 MR. : You sure, you're getting 10 awful close. 11 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says I 12 need it. 13 MR. : Would you like a piece? 14 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 15 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 16 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 17 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 18 count? 19 MS. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 21 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 22 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 23 R&D. So, this is where your plus one is. So 24 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 25 in R&D during the 10 o'clock count. So this is EFTA00115583 108 1 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 2 MR. : But is that also weird 3 though that this count cleared with an R&D 4 slip. R&D 1 that's never checked off. There's 5 nothing on the E-1 for R&D? 6 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 7 way before clock one. 8 MR. : Before clock one, the one 9 we initially showed you where -- 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 12 in. And it is our believe, per the person who 13 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 14 midnight. 15 MS. : Hm. 16 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 17 inmate that you can't see? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved 20 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have 21 counted him as part of their count slip? 22 MS. : At 3:15? 23 MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 24 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should 25 have counted him on the count slip or was it EFTA00115584 109 1 supposed to be 2 MS. 3 because I work R&D? Well, to be honest with you, in R&D and I'm going to tell you 4 what goes on, they drop inmates in there and 5 they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's 6 why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're 7 bring