DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 15, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00115899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : The recorder is on. It is Tuesday, June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57 p.m. MR. : My name is I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justicer Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office and these are my credentials. This interview is with Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can you state your name? MR. MR. : First name? MR. MR. . And is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justicer Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today is June 15th and the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being conducted at , Deer Park, New York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent MR. , and again, these are my credentials. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : This interview will be EFTA00115901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record and spell your last name, to start? 4 Again, I am DOJ Special Agent 6 7 8 10 11 an official DOJ investigation into the death of 12 inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing 13 surrounding that and you're being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ OIG? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : As part of our procedure, I'm 19 going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226 20 226-2. I'm going to read the form out loud to 21 you and give you a chance to review it also. 22 "United States Department of Justice, Office of 23 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 24 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 25 a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to MR. : My name is Senior Special Agent MR. : Lieutenant . MR. : As I stated before, this is EFTA00115902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 provide information as part of an investigation 2 being conducted by the Office of Inspector 3 General. This investigation is being conducted 4 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 5 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer any questions. Any statement you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding or both." Now the waiver for you. 14 "I understand the warnings and assurances 15 stated above and I am willing to make a 16 statement and answer questions. No promises or 17 threats have been made to me and no pressure or 18 coercion of any kind has been used against me." 19 Do you understand that? 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Do you wish to proceed with 22 the interview? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Please review the document 25 and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00115903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 where it says, "Employee signature." MR. : Do you need a pen? MR. : I have. Thank you. MR. : There's a4e line that says, "Employee signature," -- MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : -- and sign your name there and below there can you please print your name? MR. : Thank you sir. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : I'm signing the signature of the Office of Inspector General's Special Agent. MR. : Thank you for signing the document, both of you, and for dating it 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and signature of witness and printing my name, name of witness. MR. : Before we start the interview, I'd like to place you under oath, Mr. Can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. : Yes. MR. : Thank you. EFTA00115904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I do. 2 MR. : Please let me know if you do 3 not understand any questions I ask, I'll repeat 4 it and I'll try to rephrase it for you. Okay? 5 What is your current home address? 6 MR. , Deer Park, 7 New York, 11729. 8 MR. : Your date of birth? 9 MR. 10 MR. : And what is your social 11 security number? 12 MR. : He doesn't need to 13 provide that if he doesn't want to. Would you 14 mind for the record, can you show us your 15 credentials again and then we can use that as 16 verification for your - all right. Thank you, 17 sir, for showing your credentials. I'm looking 18 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal 19 Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer 20 credentials, certify that is a 21 Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. 22 see a picture that matches the gentleman that 23 is sitting in front of us. 24 MR. : Thank you. 25 MR. : You're welcome. EFTA00115905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : Mr. , what's your highest 2 level of education? 3 MR. : I have a —bachelors of science 4 degree. 5 MR. : In what subject? 6 MR. : Community Services. 7 MR. : What college did you receive 8 that from? 9 MR. : Empire State College. 10 MR. : What year did you receive it? 11 MR. : 2010, May. 12 MR. : 2010, May. Okay. What did 13 you do prior to working for the BOP? 14 MR. : I was in the military and I 15 worked in a law firm. 16 MR. : Thank you for your service. 17 What branch of the military? 18 MR. : United States Navy Reserves. 19 MR. : How long were you in the 20 military for? 21 MR. : 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours 22 or something like that. 23 MR. : What was your position and 24 title when you -. 25 MR. : I was an E-6 ship service man, EFTA00115906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 first class petty officer. 2 MR. : And are you still active in 3 the military? 4 MR. : No, I'm retired. 5 MR. : Thank you. 6 MR. : And did you retire in 7 2019? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : October? 10 MR. : October 2019. 11 MR. : How long have you served with 12 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 13 MR. : Thirteen years. 14 MR. : Thirteen years? And what was 15 the entry on duty date? 16 MR. : July 22 - I mean, January 22nd, 17 2008. 18 MR. : Did you graduate from BOP 19 training? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : What year? 22 MR. : 2008, March. 23 MR. : Okay. When and where was 24 your first office assignment with the BOP? 25 MR. : Brooklyn, MDC Brooklyn. EFTA00115907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That was in 2008? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And what positions - how long 4 did you stay at the MDC for? 5 MR. : Five and a half years. 6 MR. : Five and a half? 7 MR. : I stayed there from 2008— teo 8 October 5, 2013. 9 MR. : Where did you go in October? 10 MR. : MCC New York. 11 MR. : Was it a promotion or 12 lateral? 13 MR. : Lateral. 14 MR. : Okay. When did you get - 15 what was the next step, promotion that you got? 16 MR. : GS-8. 17 MR. : To what position? 18 MR. : MCC New York, Senior Officer 19 Specialist. 20 MR. : And what year was that? 21 MR. : Think, I'm going toe say 2015? 22 MR. : Okay. And what was the next 23 promotion after that? 24 MR. : GS-9. 25 MR. : GS-9 what? What was the EFTA00115908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 title? MR. : I was a Counselor. MR. : Okay. And after that? MR. : GS-11 Lieutenant. MR. : When did you become a Lieutenant? MR. : I was temp Lieutenant in 2016. 8 Then, I got 2000, I think `17, I got promoted 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 to - orr `18 I got promoted to GS-11. MR. : What was your position at the MCC on August 9th and 10th -- MR. : I was a -. MR. : -- of 2019? MR. : I was a Lieutenant. MR. : I'll read it. MR. : Okay. MR. : So we have a - is it 18 correct that you were interviewed already by 19 the FBI and the OIG? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Regarding the matter 22 leading up to Epstein's death on August 9th -. 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : Great. Thank you. I'm 25 just going to read the report that was created EFTA00115909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I 2 can't physically hand it to you but because the 3 OIG was there, it's our information to ask, 4 that's why I'll be able to read it to you. 5 Just, as I'm reading it, just let me know if 6 there's anything that's inaccurate and then 7 I'll probably stop along the way to just kind 8 of ask for a little bit more collaborations. 9 It says, "Prior to employment with the Bureau 10 of Prisons, was a Paralegal at Skadden Law 11 Firm." 12 MR. : Skadden. 13 MR. : Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : "He worked litigation, 16 pro Bono, mergers and acquisitions for 17 approximately 10 years." And was that 18 approximately from 1998 to 2008? 19 MR. : Approximately. 20 MR. : Okay. has also 21 been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 22 years. was employed as a Corrections 23 Officer with the BOP in June 1999 at the 24 Metropolitan Detention Center herein after 25 MDC," is that correct? EFTA00115910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : It was January. MR. : January of 1999? MR. : Where? MR. This is saying that I don't think this was correct. So, it says that you were with the MDC since June of 1999. MR. : I was there - no, not '99, no. MR. : I thought you said in 2008 you started. MR. : 2008 I said I started. Yeah, not '99. MR. : All right. So you started with the MDC - with the BOP and at the MDC in -- MR. : 2000 -. MR. • -- January of 2008. MR. '08. Yes. MR. Okay. transitioned to the BOP Metropolitan Correction Center, or the MCC, on," it says, "October 5, 2013." MR. : Yes. MR. : "He was later promoted to the rank of Lieutenant on July 8, 2018." MR. : Yeah, July sometime. MR. : Okay. was the EFTA00115911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for 2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate 3 throughout the MCC every 90 days." Is that 4 correct? 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : According to , his 7 duties and responsibilities were as follows." 8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days 9 up until this incident? Were you just about to 10 rotate out of the SHU then? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : I was just still the SHU 14 Lieutenant. 15 MR. : So were you -. 16 MR. : So -. 17 MR. : So the way that this 18 reads is almost like you were only there for 90 19 days. Were you there for 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- longer than 90 days? 22 MR. : Well, I was taken out because I 23 was out on an injury. 24 MR. : Prior to that though, how 25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant? EFTA00115912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 MR. : Yeah, for about - because we 2 switch. I was on the desk and just before, I 3 think, like program review or something like 4 that, after program review, they put me up 5 there. 6 MR. : All right. But all of 7 July and August of 2000 -- 8 MR. : Yeah, I was - yeah. 9 MR. : -- and `19, so, okay. So 10 you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least 11 July and 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- August and a little 14 bit prior. 15 MR. : Yeah. Uh-huh. 16 MR. : So it says, "According to 17 duties and responsibilities are as 18 follows. Control max wing, 10 south and 19 oversee the regular SHU." 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : And 10 south, my 22 understanding is that's the very high profile 23 inmates that have one inmate per cell, there's 24 constant supervision by cameras on them -- 25 MR. : Cameras. EFTA00115913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- at all times? 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Okay. Maybe like 4 terrorists? 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : People that go into those 7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control 8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews 9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. "Ensure 10 inmates are given what they have coming." What 11 does that mean? "Ensure inmate -. 12 MR. : That means, whatever the 13 institution - if they have - they need soap, 14 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they 15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to 16 write on, they get it. 17 MR. : So the supplies that 18 they're -- 19 MR. : Supplies that they -- 20 MR. : -- required, you ensure - 21 22 MR. : -- that - I ensure that they -. 23 MR. : -- that they receive what 24 they -- 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00115914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- what they require. 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Okay. And then the next 4 thing that they wrote was, "A lot." So I'm 5 assuming what they meant is you have a lot of 6 responsibilities. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : is generally the 9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 10 shift supervisor." 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Were you working a lot of 13 overtime there? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : And when you were doing 16 your OT, were you also in the SHU? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Would that be -. 19 MR. : Because as the Operations 20 Lieutenant, you've got to go to Special 21 Housing. 22 MR. : Okay. So if you were 23 doing OT, you weren't necessarily the SHU 24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant 25 EFTA00115915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- you were the 3 Operations Lieutenant, but you covered the SHU. 4 MR. : Or activities, yes. 5 MR. : So you were - you would - 6 7 MR. : So. 8 MR. : So during your OT shifts, 9 you typically would do either Aectivities or 10 Operations Lieutenant? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And were you doing that 13 almost on like a daily basis up until then? 14 MR. : Something like that. Uh-huh. 15 MR. : And would it typically be 16 like the morning watch or the evening watch or 17 18 MR. : Any shift. 19 MR. : Any? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Was a lot of it mandated 22 or voluntary or both? 23 MR. : It was - I mean, it was short, 24 so, you know. 25 MR. : Like, like, like EFTA00115916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 forbidding, you've served as both Activities 2 and the Ops -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- Lieutenant, so you're 5 familiar with those duties and 6 responsibilities, correct? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Great. 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : All right. So, "- 11 advised that there is a mandatory quarterly 12 training in the SHU program for BOP employees." 13 Now, have you ever conducted that training? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : You've participated? 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Okay, great. And do you 18 know of the individuals that were working in 19 the SHU for their quarterly assignments had 20 also received that training at the time? 21 MR. : Some have received that 22 training. 23 MR. : Possibly not all? 24 MR. : But possibly not all. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : But if they didn't, you know, 2 we went around and we showed them, you know, 3 showed them training. 4 MR. : Okay. So anybody that 5 hadn't gone -- 6 MR. : So -- 7 MR. : -- to that training -. 8 MR. : -- people that was assigned 9 that were supposed to be there, went to the 10 training. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And if they didn't go for 13 whatever reason, if they was out sick or 14 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you 15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the 16 training with them, you know, hands on. 17 MR. : Now, are you the person 18 that would present the training at the 19 quarterly training? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. So as the -. 22 MR. : Normally the SHU Lieutenant 23 does. 24 MR. : Okay. So you provided 25 probably the last quarterly training and then EFTA00115918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 anyone who didn't attend that training, you 2 provided them personal training yourself? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : But I don't know if I did it. 6 The prior SHU Lieutenant probably gave the 7 training. 8 MR. : Okay. Had you done it in 9 the past? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : "He also reviews 292 14 forms which track an inmate's meals, 15 recreation, medical attention and showers." Is 16 that like the forms that go into their 17 personnel file? 18 MR. : Yes. Uh-huh. 19 MR. : And those files in the 20 SHU, they're kept in the SHU? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : The on thely computer - they're 24 supposed to be printed out every week -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : -- because you've got to go backwards. MR. printed out on MR. printed out MR. • : And as I'm told, they're Sundays? Yes. They're supposed to be like on Sunday morning watch. : Okay. MR. : Put into the file and, you know, because it's a new week. The new week -- MR. : Uh-huh. MR. is going to start because that morning is breakfast. So it's breakfast, and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. So, breakfast is first at 6 o'clock, or, you know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. MR. : Okay. So you said on Sundays, is there typically one person that works on Sundays or is it -- MR. : No, it's MR. : -- whoever is working -- MR. : -- always -. MR. : -- on that side? MR. : It's always - yeah. It's EFTA00115920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 always supposed to be two up there 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- on - on -. 4 MR. : But it's not like 5 typically the same two is what I'm asking? 6 MR. : Yeah, no. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Huh-uh. 9 MR. : So it's whoever is 10 working that shift -- 11 MR. : Whoever is working. 12 MR. : -- on a Sunday. 13 MR. : Yeah. Hopefully, you know, 14 well, we had a steady OIC, but he got out, he 15 got injured and was out sick, so, you know, 16 it's by the luck of the draw, whoever is 17 available. 18 MR. : Okay. So who was the 19 officer in charge or OIC who got injured? 20 MR. : For morning watch, I don't 21 know. 22 MR. : No, no, no, who got 23 injured, who got out? 24 MR. : Oh, it was (Phonetic 25 Sp. *00:17:46), I think it was, but he was - EFTA00115921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 yeah, he was out. 2 MR. : And about when did he go 3 out? 4 MR. : I don't remember. 5 MR. : All right. But in 6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 MR. : I don't remember. 8 MR. : You don't remember? 9 Sure. 10 MR. : I have to look at the roster - 11 I don't -. 12 MR. : Absolutely. Do you have 13 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these 14 questions, you might want to just be able to 15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of 16 refresh your memory. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : And so, Special Agent 19 is giving you, or I will be giving you 20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment 21 roster from August 9th and the other one is 22 going to be from August 10th. 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : I'm sure you're familiar 25 with these. EFTA00115922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : Sure. So you'll be able 3 to like if -- 4 MR. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- the SHU is towards the 6 bottom and then who was on duty. It'll show 7 you the Oeps, you know, the Oeps Lieutenant and 8 the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. 9 All right. So, it says, "Every SHU inmate has 10 an associated 292 form as long as they are in 11 the SHU population." 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : "Once they rotate to 14 another population, the form is invalid and no 15 longer exists." Now, what does that mean? Do 16 we—they destroy the forms? 17 MR. : No. So what happens is, okay, 18 the way the program operates is, once you come 19 out of the SHU program, like say for instance, 20 if you key to suicide watch area, your original 21 form, or whatever form, is, if it didn't get 22 printed, if there's a form there, but that 23 stops, the time stops. 24 MR. : You mean they create a 25 new form for every housing unit you go into is EFTA00115923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what you're saying. MR. : No. Only 292s are in the Special Housing Unit, it's not MR. : Okay. MR. : -- in general population. MR. : Okay. So is there -- MR. : So MR. : -- one in suicide watch and -. MR. : No. MR. : No. MR. : On suicide watch, there's booklets and there's - it says, namcs ofthere's a form where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that. MR. : Okay. But what does it mean when it says that they wrote, "Once they rotate to another population the form is invalid and no longer exists?" Are they referring -. MR. : Is not in the program. They're not in the program so I cannot -. MR. : It doesn't continue. MR. : It doesn't continue, yeah. MR. : But it doesn't, like, get EFTA00115924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 destroyed, it remains MR. : No. MR. : -- in their file. MR. : If it gets printed. MR. : But it -. MR. : But, like, say - once they come off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could go back and see if the individual was there. But once they come off the program, I cannot create a document for you. MR. : Sure. So are the documents maintained electronically? MR. : It's a program, so I don't - as long as you in the SHU program, in the roster, because SENTRY and BectBER—BOPWare (Chonctic Cp. *00:20:13) talk to each other. Right? And so what happens is if a person is keyed into SHU, there's a little box you have to press. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : In BOTLEERBOPWare, and it's timestamped. So, once that person is there, it creates an AD order, administrative detention order. Once that administrative detention order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there why the individual was placed in Special EFTA00115925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Housing -- 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- has to be a reason. If that 4 form is not filled out, the Captain gets an 5 email from the region saying there's a blank AD 6 order in here, right? So I used to go in there 7 and look every morning to see if somebody, 8 whoever got placed in Special Housing to see 9 what the charges was or if that form was filled 10 out. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : If that form wasn't filled out, 13 I look at the Lieutenant's log or I call the 14 Lieutenant, whoever, you know, "Why did this 15 inmate get locked up?" Normally when I do my 16 rounds, I ask the inmates, "Why are you up 17 here?" Some of them lie and they, "I don't 18 know why I'm up here," whatever. But then I 19 find out why they up there, then I know why. 20 It could be SIS investigation, it could be 21 because of a fight. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. : It could be multiple reasons 24 why the AD order wasn't created. However, we 25 try to create and do the AD order to place the EFTA00115926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 inmate so that he can have a 292 and he'd be on 2 the SHU report. 3 MR. : So what I'm asking though 4 is -- 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- once it's created, 7 once they're there and once this 292 is 8 created, even if it's not printed out, is it 9 maintained in the system? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : And is it ever deleted? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : So that's what I'm 14 asking. So when this says, "Ceases to exist," 15 I just want to make sure, is once they leave 16 the SHU, it's not deleted. It's still always 17 going to exist in a file. 18 MR. : I mean, long - you've got a 19 register number, you could go back, but I don't 20 know how long the program, you could go back 21 and forth to pull a 292. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know, once the person is 24 out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go 25 back and you can pull it. EFTA00115927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : But it'll stop at the day that 3 that person was released or, you know, placed 4 in another housing unit. 5 MR. : Okay. Now, people that 6 are in the SHU and gets placed in another 7 housing unit, the papers that were printed out, 8 what is done with those? 9 MR. : Those goes to the unit team. 10 MR. : Okay. So that goes, if 11 they went to a different housing unit, it goes 12 13 MR. : It goes to the -- 14 MR. : -- to the unit. 15 MR. unit team and the mailbox, 16 their file, you know, it tells you on the 17 thing, "Copy to unit team for central file." 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And it goes into their - 20 supposed to go into their folder. 21 MR. : But it's not destroyed 22 either? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Huh-uh. EFTA00115928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 MR. : It says, "Medical 2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds 3 in the mornings and the evenings." And it that 4 every day? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : So - on weekends too? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : So medical personnel 9 visit the SHU two times a day, okay. 10 MR. : Two - twice per shift, yes. 11 MR. : Around when do they 12 usually show up? Is there -. 13 MR. : Depends. Sometimes they there 14 at, you know, 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock in the 15 morning and then, again, they come up after the 16 4 o'clock count or they might come up before 17 that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : You know, when shift changes. 20 MR. : But they actually 21 participate in the rounds? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. regularly 24 audits 292 forms from the previous day." So 25 you'd be constantly seeing, making sure your EFTA00115929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 staff are doing what they're supposed to be 2 doing -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- with those forms? 5 Okay. advised that accountability of 6 inmates is important. He never caught anyone 7 intentionally not doing their job. also 8 reviews round forms and searches for red flags. 9 These could be missing spaces, missing 10 signatures, etcetera. If caught, 11 approaches the individual and requests an 12 explanation." So have you ever caught someone 13 then not doing rounds or -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- anyone that was 16 working on that day - on August 9th or 10th 17 that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have 18 to discuss this matter with any of those 19 individuals? 20 MR. : Naw. 21 MR. : There's no one in there 22 that you can - that were working on either day? 23 MR. : Not that I know of, no. 24 MR. : Okay. Can you think of 25 anyone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00115930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 not conducting rounds or counts? 2 MR. : On day watch, you know, we 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would ask, "You're doing showers, we down range, we doing this." It gots to get filled out after, you know, that -. MR. : But can you think of anyone that you actually had to - that you caught not doing it? Or I should say, your last day at work was on August 8th. Who was the last person you caught not (Indiccornible *00:26:01)conducting rounds in the -- MR. : Oh, I don't remember. MR. : SHU? You don't? MR. : I don't remember. MR. : Okay. That's fine. MR. : No, sir. MR. : But you don't believe it was any of the people that were working? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. was the SHU Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein wasn't originally in the SHU. advised Epstein was in 10 South Lower." MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : "The population is for EFTA00115931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile." 2 Okay, so this is the first. There's two 3 different 10 Souths? 4 MR. : No. There's 10 South, then 5 there's 10 South Lower. 6 MR. : What's 10 South Lower? 7 I don't know -. 8 MR. : G Tier. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : All right? G Tier has four 11 cells where you can put high-profile or 12 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : 10 South only holds a maximum 15 of six inmates. 16 MR. : So was he originally 17 going to go to 10 18 South then and was changed -. 19 MR. : Oh, I don't know. 20 MR. : So -. 21 MR. : When I got there, he was on G 22 Tier. 23 MR. : Okay. So I thought you 24 just said that 10 South Lower is for people 25 that were going if 10 South was full. EFTA00115932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 MR. : They can put you on the Tier, 2 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive 3 inmates on that tier. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So it's not up to me, it's up 6 to that shift Lieutenant. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : But, if the Captain or somebody 9 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, "Hey, put 10 that guy on G Tier and then that's where he's 11 going," that's where that individual will go. 12 That's where he will be housed if that 13 individual was disruptive or anything like 14 that. 15 MR. : And do you how long he 16 was on 10 South Lower approximately? 17 MR. : I don't know. 18 MR. : Was it a long time? 19 MR. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You don't know? 21 MR. : Like, when he - I guess, you 22 know, when he got there to the institution, he 23 was put on - he was on G Tier. 24 MR. : G Tier is 10 South Lower? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00115933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : Okay. Is 10 South Lower 2 similar to 10 South in the sense that it's one 3 inmate per cell? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : And are there cameras in 6 those -. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : All right, so it's set up 9 pretty much the same way as 10 South? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So he was never placed in 12 the general population. 13 MR. : I don't think so. 14 MR. : Okay. So when he came 15 in, you believe he was first put on 10 South 16 Lower and then transferred to the SHU. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. And you had 19 oversight -- 20 MR. : When -. 21 MR. : -- though -. 22 MR. : When - when -. 23 MR. : You have oversight over 24 25 MR. : When he was -. EFTA00115934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- 10 South. 2 MR. : When he was moved off of G 3 Tier, if that's the question you're asking me, 4 and placed with a bunkie, that didn't come from 5 me. 6 MR. : Sure. Who does - so, did 7 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and 8 the regular SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah, and the regular SHU, yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And is that all 11 the same -- 12 MR. : That's all the same. 13 MR. : -- kind of unit? 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : It's one big unit. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Upstairs is a separate unit 19 because it's not on - only unit that's 10 South 20 Lower is in the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : Okay. So that's 22 MR. : It's on the Special Housing 23 Unit count. 24 MR. : So your understanding 25 though is Epstein was always somewhere in that EFTA00115935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 unit, in 10 - the SHU unit. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Whether lower or just 4 regular SHU. 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I got a - just one 8 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : You just mentioned - you said 10 that the G Tier, the 10 South Lower, is always 11 part of the SHU count. 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : So is that ZA or ZS? 14 MR. : ZA. 15 MR. : ZA. Okay. 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : ZA or -. 18 MR. : ZB is 10 South. 19 MR. : So ZA was the whole 20 thing. 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Oh, can we have you look 23 at these counts then, just for clarification? 24 MR. : It should be - look - if you 25 look at - if you pull up the document for the EFTA00115936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 El that you just flipped by. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay? You look at the El, it 4 got ZA and ZB. ZB has the shorter count. 5 MR. : So ZA says - so I'm 6 looking at the count from 8/9/2015, the time on 7 it shows 1541, so I guess it's the 3:00 p.m. 8 There is no 3:00 p.m. 9 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 10 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count? 11 MR. : Yeah. That was actually when 12 it was created. 13 MR. : It shows for ZA, there 14 were 75, for ZB it says 5. 15 MR. : Yes. ZB is always shorter. 16 MR. : So what I was saying, 17 isn't the 75 count the entire SHU? 18 MR. : It's ZA. 19 MR. : Not -. 20 MR. : It's not - 10 South is not 21 included because 10 South is a separate unit. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : The G Tier is part of ZA -- 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. : -- not ZB. EFTA00115937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. : So that's what we were 2 asking -- 3 MR. : Yes, yes. 4 MR. : -- is that ZA - the 10 5 South Lower is incorporated with the whole of 6 the regular SHU. 7 MR. : ZA, yes. 8 MR. : And ZB is just 10 South. 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Right. "Epstein was 11 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their 12 first - okay, is that correct? 13 MR. : I guess. I don't know. 14 MR. : "During their first 15 encounter, Epstein asked , `Am I going to 16 get out of here?' remembers Epstein 17 frequenting the attorney conference area for 18 long periods of time." Is it true that at 19 almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was 20 just about every day he was in the - he would 21 go to the attorney area? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. advised that 24 at one point during the beginning at a meeting 25 with MCC Executive Management, they wanted to EFTA00115938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 house Epstein with a bunkie. doesn't 2 recall exactly who requested this action, 3 however, he remembers they were trying to 4 identify an inmate. Ultimately, they decided 5 to house Epstein with Tartaglione. wasn't 6 asked for his input and followed Executive 7 Management orders. There was an instant on 8 7/23/2019 between the two but it didn't occur 9 on shift. He heard about it the next 10 day. Lieutenant completed the 583 11 packet which includes memos and photos 12 resulting from the incident." So although you 13 weren't there, were you familiar with what 14 happened or had -. 15 MR. : I'm a Lieutenant, so I have to 16 know. 17 MR. : So were - did you hear 18 anything about him either trying to commit 19 suicide or his cell mate attempting to kill 20 him? 21 MR. : I don't recall. 22 MR. : So what is it that you 23 recall from it? 24 MR. : I just know I - you know, you 25 read in this day chart that he tried to hang EFTA00115939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 himself and I looked at the 583, I looked at 2 the pictures, saw the pictures. 3 MR. : So your understanding -- 4 MR. 5 MR. : -- was that he tried to 6 hang himself. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Had you -. 9 MR. : And his bunkie, you know, 10 guess called out or whatever. They went - 11 they, you know, Lieutenant or 12 whatever, she did what she had to do. He was 13 on suicide watch the next day and, you know, 14 that was pretty much it. 15 MR. : And what -. 16 MR. : You know, I don't recall 17 everything, you know, it's - I - you read it 18 briefly, but I was -. 19 MR. : So, do you know what 20 happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in 21 the SHU? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Did he get placed with 24 another cell mate? 25 MR. : Oh, I don't remember. EFTA00115940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : Are inmates in the SHU 2 required to have cellmates when they're in the 3 SHU? 4 MR. : Yes. However, there's 5 exceptions because some of them you can't house 6 them with nobody. 7 MR. : And is that because they 8 would get harmed if they were housed with 9 someone? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : And is that what - is 12 that part of what 10 South Lower is for or is 13 that - it's just regular SHU, the inmates know? 14 MR. : Just like some have on their 15 door, "Housing rec alone," because they could 16 have multiple SAMDsteps. Some of them, you 17 know, they could be fear for their life. You 18 always, you know, you have that, but we try to 19 bunk up everybody. 20 MR. : All right, so aside from 21 these special exceptions, inmates are supposed 22 to have -. 23 MR. : Yeah, we try to bunk everybody 24 up. Yeah. 25 MR. : Now is that policy or EFTA00115941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 just a decision that was made? 2 MR. : No, that's something that, you 3 know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did 4 that, because once you knew individuals receive 5 - you can't - policy states that you're not 6 supposed to have an AD, Administrative 7 Detention person and a person that's under 8 disciplinary segregation together, housed 9 together. It's supposed to be separate. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : That's the policy that they 12 that's 5270, you know, point whatever the new 13 number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program 14 statement. When Psychology says that this 15 person tried to harm themselves, we make sure 16 that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, 17 they have a companion or somebody in there that 18 they could talk to so that, you know, they 19 don't feel despondent, you know. SHU is a 20 place, you know, if you don't check on these 21 inmates, you know, they're going to remind you. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : So, you know, you've got to 24 make rounds, you've got to check on - be 25 checking on these inmates. You've got to be EFTA00115942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 seeing what they're doing, you know. T- 2 tough place. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You know. 5 MR. : So, inmates that aren't a 6 special situation should have a cell mate and 7 especially inmates that are coming back from 8 suicide watch -- 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- they, in particular, 11 should have a 12 MR. . Te—Should have a cell mate. 13 Yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. It says, " 15 recalls interaction with Epstein on watch 16 Epstein stated, `I don't want to be here and 17 I'm going to hurt myself.'" He said that to 18 you? 19 MR. : I don't recall saying that. 20 MR. : All right. So again, it 21 says, " recalls interacting with Epstein on 22 watch. Epstein stated, `I don't want to be 23 here and I'm going to hurt myself.'" 24 MR. : I'm -. 25 MR. : You don't believe that's EFTA00115943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 accurate? 2 MR. : I'm not going to hurt myself. 3 MR. : Oh, not going to hurt -. 4 MR. : Oh, no, sorry, "I'm not - 5 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- going to hurt myself." 8 MR. : I don't remember him saying 9 that. 10 MR. : So, okay, so did he say 11 that, "I don't want to be here and I'm not 12 going to hurt myself?" 13 MR. : Yeah, he said that to me. 14 MR. : He did tell you that? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : But a lot of inmates say that, 18 you know, "Oh, I'm not going to hurt myself." 19 They look you right in your face and like, 20 "Yeah, and those markings on your neck say 21 something totally different." 22 MR. : So would have that -- 23 MR. : But -. 24 MR. : -- would have he said 25 this to you after he came back from suicide EFTA00115944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. the second time 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. I'm assuming? 6 MR. : I mean, because I escorted him 7 to attorney conference, you know, I'm the one 8 I had interactions with him, you know, he 9 talked to me or whatever, you know. No special 10 privileges, you know. But I treated him like I 11 treat anybody else, as a decent human being. 12 MR. : Okay. Was he telling you 13 this though so that he wouldn't be housed with 14 another inmate? 15 MR. : I don't think that. 16 MR. : Did he want to get of the 17 SHU? 18 MR. : Yes, he wanted to get out of 19 SHU. 20 MR. : And where did he want to 21 go? 22 MR. : He wanted to go, I guess, to 23 general population. 24 MR. : Did he ever say that 25 that's where he wanted to go? EFTA00115945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : He did? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : He said he wanted to go 5 to general pop? 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Okay. It says, " 8 also remembers feeding Epstein. The BOP 9 psychologist said that Epstein must be housed 10 with a cell mate when he returned to the SHU." 11 And this is after the July 23rd incident? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. So, he came back 14 to the SHU, do you recall, around like July 15 30th? 16 MR. : When he - whatever day he came 17 back to the SHU, he came back. 18 MR. : And then that -- 19 MR. : And -. 20 MR. : -- around that date is 21 when the psychologist said he's got to be 22 housed with a cell mate? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. provided 25 cell mate recommendations but they were still EFTA00115946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 deciding on an individual when left the 2 institution that night. called to ensure 3 that he received a bunkie. BOP decision makers 4 chose Efrain Reyes." 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : remembers Epstein 7 requesting to make a phone call to his 8 daughter. doesn't do phone calls because 9 he is unaware of every inmates restricted 10 contact list." 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't make phone 12 calls. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That's the unit team. 15 MR. : All right. We're going 16 to go back to Reyes. 17 MR. : Or if somebody tells me I have 18 to make it directly - my direct supervisor 19 says, "Hey, give this guy a telephone call," 20 then that's something totally different. 21 MR. : All right. So after - so 22 you said around July 30 -- 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- 2019, you were 25 informed by psychology, " needs a cell EFTA00115947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 mate," correct? 2 MR. needs a cell mate? 3 MR. : No, sorry, "Epstein needs 4 a cell mate." 5 MR. : Yeah. They sent an email, 6 something or -. 7 MR. : Right. And -. 8 MR. : I know the Captain and the 9 warden, they was like, "He has to have a cell 10 mate." 11 MR. : And told you that? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And then what did you do 14 with that information? Did you provide it to 15 everybody that work in the SHU? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right, now, can you 18 tell me a little bit about how did the people 19 that work in the SHU know that Epstein was 20 required to have a cell mate? 21 MR. : Okay. I passed it on to my 22 OIC, which was 23 MR. : And can you - do you know 24 how to spell that name? It might be on there. 25 MR. : It's - I do know how to EFTA00115948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 spell it, he's my friend. I -- 3 MR. : Is it 4 MR. : 5 MR. : Is it 6 MR. : Yeah, something like that, 7 yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. So, 9 MR. : I don't know the spelling for 10 sure. 11 MR. 12 MR. : I should know how to spell his 13 name, I just got brain fart. 14 MR. : Okay. So if you told 15 him, did you tell anyone else directly? 16 MR. : No, I spoke to him. He's the 17 one that, you know, he was on the desk. 18 MR. : And then, did you inform 19 others though that were in there, that, A, 20 Epstein needs a bunk mate? Cell mate? I mean, 21 not talking about this a special time, I'm just 22 saying like, were they aware? 23 MR. : I spoke to him. If I call you, 24 then you pass along that information. I spoke 25 to , he wrote it down, I verified it. EFTA00115949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 The next day when I came to work, he had a 2 bunkie. 3 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 4 MR. : The bunkie was there and we had 5 postings up around, "This individual needs a 6 bunkie." 7 MR. : Okay. Great. Can you 8 speak to me a little about that? 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : You said there were 11 postings within the SHU that -. 12 MR. : On the door, on the desk, on 13 the OIC desk, there was - I believe there was 14 postings that he was supposed to have a bunkie. 15 MR. : So on the OI 16 MR. : It was written. 17 MR. : On the OIC desk, there 18 was a - or what door was there a sign? 19 MR. : On his cell door. 20 MR. : So Epstein's cell door, 21 there was a posting saying, "Epstein is 22 required to have a cell mate?" 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. And do you know 25 who - if that - did that remain up until you EFTA00115950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 left on August 8th? 2 MR. : No, because he was on suicide 3 watch. Then it was taken off. He was placed 4 with Reyes, and was in the cell, so I don't 5 recall - after I left that day, I don't know 6 what, you know - everything was in place. 7 MR. : Yeah, no, what I'm saying 8 is that prior to leaving, I'm wondering if the 9 people that worked in the SHU, because 10 obviously as you know Reyes left on the 9th and 11 you weren't there. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : But did the people that 14 were in there - I want to know if the people 15 who were in the SHU 16 MR. : My crew, whoever worked - we 17 had a skinless crew. You could see who worked 18 day watch. 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : Right? You can see who worked 21 evening watch. Okay? The people that were 22 there August 9th, I can't, you know, vouch for. 23 Okay? But everybody knew that was part of the 24 SHU crew -- 25 MR. : Okay. So can you look at EFTA00115951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : -- and not everybody on this 3 list was, you know, is - these is fill ins. 4 It's not their assigned post. 5 MR. : So can you tell me who on 6 the SHU day watch crew of August 9th, who was a 7 regular and who would have known that he was 8 required to have a cell mate? 9 MR. was there, he knows. 10 He worked - he was SHU 3. knew, he was 11 Rec Specialist. knew. 12 MR. : Who is 13 MR. , he's the number one. 14 MR. : So who then on that 15 didn't know? Or you don't know if they know. 16 MR. : I don't know. I mean, 17 everybody - once the OIC knows and the crew, 18 everybody -. 19 MR. : So is it kind of like the 20 military? You're the officer, you tell your 21 head Sergeant, "Make sure everybody knows 22 this," that Sergeant is then therefore 23 responsible for telling everyone else? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : So, do you recall having EFTA00115952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 conversations with these people as well though? 2 MR. : No, because they don't - 3 everybody -. 4 MR. : So it's 5 MR. : I spoke - the datc day that he 6 was required to have a bunkie, I spoke to 7 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. took care of it from 10 there. All I know, when I came in, I checked, 11 he had a bunkie, that was it. 12 MR. : And I understand this. 13 But what -. 14 MR. : And so, I cannot explain for 15 another shift. I cannot explain - only could 16 tell what did. I don't know what anybody 17 else did after I left. I don't know. I cannot 18 answer that. 19 MR. : Right. So like you were 20 saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July 21 30th. What we're asking is that between July 22 30th and between August 9th, the days that you 23 were there, were you conversing with these 24 people to remind them that he was required to 25 have a cell -. EFTA00115953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 MR. : It wasn't nothing to talk about 2 because everybody knew. He wasn't by his self, 3 so he has a bunkie so -. 4 MR. : Right. But isn't it true 5 that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly 6 coming in and out? It's more of a jail than a 7 prison? 8 MR. : Yes. But one thing don't have 9 nothing to do with - if we're working every day 10 together, I don't - why am I keep telling you 11 the same thing every day? I don't have to tell 12 you your job to what you're supposed to do 13 every day. I've got to keep reminding you to 14 feed? I have a billion other things to do. 15 MR. : But - but -. 16 MR. : So what you're saying to me, 17 cannot answer that because I don't know. 18 MR. : So, what we're asking is 19 did you have conversations with anyone on those 20 other days about the reminder that Epstein is 21 required to have a cell mate? 22 MR. : I had a conversation with the 23 crew and I don't keep repeating myself. He has 24 a bunkie. Every day I come in, I check, he's 25 got a bunkie. What is there to talk about? If EFTA00115954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it's way down -. 2 MR. : What we're asking is -. 3 MR. : I don't know - I don't under-. 4 MR. : You're saying that you 5 had a conversation with the one man who was the 6 Officer in Charge. What I'm asking you is, did 7 you have a conversation with anyone else aside 8 from him? Between July 30th and August 9th, 9 did you have any conversations 10 MR. : I don't recall. 11 MR. : -- with anyone -- 12 MR. : I don't recall. 13 MR. : -- other than the Officer 14 in Charge. 15 MR. : I don't recall. 16 MR. : Okay. So you said that 17 there was a sticky that was on the door. Was 18 the sticky only on the door on July 30th or did 19 it remain on the door from July 30th to August 20 8th? 21 MR. : It remained up there, it was on 22 the desk. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : A big sign that said, "Epstein 25 is supposed to have a bunkie," on the desk, on EFTA00115955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 the officer's station. 2 MR. : And that stayed on there 3 throughout -. 4 MR. : I guess, I don't know. It - 5 all I know, when I left, everything was in 6 place. I'm not there right now. Things could 7 change. I don't know. I cannot answer that. 8 MR. : What Agent is 9 asking is -. 10 MR. : Where were you sitting 11 when you were in the SHU? Is there a special 12 place for you? 13 MR. : I sit in like on next to 10 14 South. 15 MR. : Okay. So are you not 16 with the correctional officers? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : All right. And how -. 19 MR. : I come down, I make rounds. 20 MR. : So you're not sure if - 21 so you know that on July 30th there was this 22 Posted It =note saying that Epstein required a 23 cell -- 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- cell mate. Are what EFTA00115956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 you're saying is that you don't know if that 2 sticky note stayed on that after he was issued 3 some -. 4 MR. : It was there when I was up 5 there on the 8th. 6 MR. : That was my question. 7 Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. It was something was 9 written -- 10 MR. : So -. 11 MR. : -- that Epstein should have a 12 bunkie. It was something on the desk, yes, 13 there was something there. 14 MR. : And that was the 15 question. 16 MR. : On the 8th. 17 MR. : So, on August - so from 18 July 30th basically to August 8th there was 19 something on the desk saying, "Epstein is 20 required to have a cell mate." 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Perfect. 23 MR. : Oh, okay. 24 MR. : Okay. And is that the 25 same thing for the sticky that was on the door? EFTA00115957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I don't recall. 2 MR. : The door your don't 3 recall. That's fine. 4 MR. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Now, does everybody have 6 access to that desk? Would everyone 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : -- that works in the SHU 9 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- would they see? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : So everyone would see 14 that there's a sticky note -- 15 MR. : Right there, yes. 16 MR. : -- right there on the 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. Officer in Charge's 19 desk saying, "Epstein is required to have a 20 bunk mate." 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : Therefore, most everybody 23 in the SHU should know because they should see. 24 And now, are there a lot of sticky notes? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00115958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : That one, I think - I forget, 3 maybe it was done on colored paper. It was - I 4 know it was on the desk and it was on the 5 bulletin, you know -- 6 MR. : Got a bulletin board? 7 MR. right there. Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : On, like on the wall, like 10 right there. It was there. So, but, like I 11 said, you know, up until the time I left, 12 don't know. 13 MR. : Yeah, I understand that 14 you don't -- 15 MR. : And -. 16 MR. : -- know what happened -- 17 MR. : And - and -. 18 MR. : -- after you left. 19 MR. : And the crews change, right? 20 We're very short on correctional workers. 21 We're very short. Sometimes it was just me up 22 there. I'm quite sure you all looked at all of 23 these rosters. Sometimes it was just me and 24 and 25 MR. : Sure. And I'm just EFTA00115959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 trying to get - I'm just trying to understand. 2 MR. : So, I don't remember 3 conversations, daily conversations that I had 4 with people every, you know, day. All right? 5 We knew, the Lieutenants knew, everybody knew, 6 you know, you come from suicide watch, you have 7 a bunkie. 8 MR. : Right. So is everybody 9 that's working the - should everyone that's 10 working in the SHU should they know that? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Should everyone that was 13 working in the SHU known that - if Epstein's 14 cell mate was removed, he should be housed with 15 a bunkie? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Right. Okay. 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : So -. 20 MR. : But, however, you don't know if 21 he's been removed. We don't know. 22 MR. : Once it's told. So once 23 they find out Reyes is gone, he's not coming 24 back -. 25 MR. : He should have had a bunkie. EFTA00115960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. And should have the SHU, people that were working there known? MR. : They know - MR. : They knew, "We need to tell the Lieutenant," - not you. MR. : Yeah. MR. : "We need to tell whoever the Lieutenant is on duty, the Officc Ops Lieutenant, the Activities Lieutenant," whoever is their chain of command, "We've got to let them know Reyes is gone, he needs a bunkie." MR. : Yeah, he needs a bunkie, yeah. MR. : Okay. So that's how it should have happened and the people that were there should have done that. And I'm not saying that they didn't. I'm just asking if that's what they should have done. MR. : I guess. Yeah. MR. Could those people that were working in the SHU, did they have the authority to be able to reassign Epstein a bunkie? MR. : Yes. MR. : So -. MR. : Until the next day or whatever, EFTA00115961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 yeah, everybody has - can do - any officer can 2 do that. 3 MR. : So even with Epstein, 4 they could have just put somebody in there? 5 MR. : No, you've got to check first. 6 MR. : So who -- 7 MR. : You've got to -. 8 MR. : -- would have they 9 checked with? 10 MR. : You check and see if he - you 11 know, if he has a separation from this person, 12 you see if this person - you look at their file 13 and you look at 14 MR. : So they check in the 15 system to see if there's any kind of warnings 16 or -- 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- issues -. 19 MR. : Predators or anything like 20 that. 21 MR. : Sure, but do they need to 22 check with a Lieutenant first before -. 23 MR. : No, they can check, any 24 officer, they have access. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. : And if they don't, they should 2 call the Lieutenant and say, "Hey, LT, such and 3 such," yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. So were they - but 5 because I'm assuming as you know, and I don't 6 think we discussed this, that - oh, we did. 7 The inmates that were with Epstein were vetted 8 by the high, you know -- 9 MR. : The higher-ups, yes. 10 MR. : -- the Warden, the 11 Captain -- 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- and possibly -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- the Regional Director. 16 So even though those were vetted, could have 17 the SHU correction officers, or at least 18 temporarily, placed Epstein with a different 19 inmate? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : They could have still 22 done that? And they would have been 23 authorized? Okay. They wouldn't have had to 24 check with the Office Lieutenant, say, "Get 25 with the Captain." EFTA00115963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 MR. : I mean, I would have did it. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : That's what my - if he needed a 4 bunkie -- 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. or he would have been - 7 somebody would have been watching him, that's 8 just me, but I'm different, you know. I do, 9 you know, I'm a forward thinker, so like I 10 said, I wasn't there. 11 MR. : Right. And being a 12 forward thinker though, and that's where I was 13 asking, do you recall 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : having conversations, 16 "Hey guys, you know, you have to -" - you 17 already said that there was the note that 18 (Indiscernible *00:52:25). 19 MR. : But everybody knows you come 20 from suicide watch - if that's the question 21 you're asking me - you come from suicide watch, 22 you have to have a bunkie. 23 MR. : And does that last for a 24 certain amount of time? So for instance, he 25 came from suicide watch on July 30th. EFTA00115964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : And -. 3 MR. : Only up until you leave Special 4 Housing, you need to have a bunkie. 5 MR. : Okay. So it -. 6 MR. : Unless, it's special extreme 7 circumstances, right, where you cannot have a 8 bunkie, then we put you in a hard cell, okay? 9 MR. : But in Epstein's 10 situation. Epstein, he came from suicide 11 watch, he doesn't have any special -- 12 MR. : He doesn't. 13 MR. : -- circumstances. 14 MR. : Right? So -. 15 MR. : So everybody knew that 16 MR. : So -. 17 MR. : -- he should have had a 18 bunkie. 19 MR. : Everybody should have known, 20 yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Because that's BOP policy. You 23 come from suicide watch, you have a bunkie. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00115965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So not only did 2 psychology send out an email, like you stated - 3 4 MR. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- saying that he was 6 required to have a bunkie, it's also policy 7 that they have a bunkie? 8 MR. : Yeah. That's from me walking 9 in the door, you know, you come from suicide 10 watch, you have a bunkie. 11 MR. : Okay. It says, " 12 informed -." 13 MR. : So you can write that down, you 14 know, I mean, you know. 15 MR. : No, no, I'm just - that's for 16 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- me, right -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- for us to go check on it. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : You wouldn't happen to know 23 the policy off-hand, would you? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:53:43). EFTA00115966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That's psychology. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : You can ask psychology. But, 6 all I know from the trainings and the things 7 that I've been in, you come from suicide watch, 8 you have to have a bunkie. That was from when 9 I joined the Bureau. 10 MR. : Okay. So you actually 11 address this later, now on this next paragraph. 12 It says, " informed his direct 13 subordinate," and this is the Officer in 14 Charge. 15 MR. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : Can you pronounce his 17 name? 18 MR. 19 MR. that Epstein 20 needed another bunkie. They were short-staffed 21 that day." And I'm assuming this is July 30th 22 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- 2019. 25 replied with, I got it.'" Does he call EFTA00115967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you III? 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Okay. "The next morning, 4 he had a bunkie. Inmates receive bunkies when 5 they come off suicide watch. It's common 6 practice in BOP. This is clearly communicated 7 in suicide watch training. It's posted 8 throughout the area and it's also institutional 9 knowledge." 10 MR. : Correct. 11 MR. : Okay. So everybody 12 should have known. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : "Epstein had a bunkie on 15 8/8/2019. is unaware of anything other 16 than that because he wasn't working. Reyes was 17 Epstein's bunkie when left work. Epstein 18 was down in an attorney conference as well. 19 communicated the message regarding a 20 bunkie to . He didn't speak to anyone 21 else about it because he expected to 22 disseminate it to his subordinates. There were 23 no other emails or communications regarding the 24 matter. The message was spread by word of 25 mouth." Aside from what you said, there was EFTA00115968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 actually a Post It note on 2 MR. : Yeah, but that's - the way 3 you're reading that, is like after, on the 8th, 4 right, he had a bunkie and then didn't 5 tell nobody, you know, I'm just - that's not 6 correct. That's incorrect. 7 MR. : No, no, no, so it -- 8 MR. : You could -. 9 MR. : -- says that you said 10 that he was to disseminate it to his 11 subordinates. It says - so what it means, I 12 think that -- 13 MR. : When he first -. 14 MR. : -- and I didn't write 15 this. 16 MR. : Yeah. When he first - when the 17 first - when we found out that he have to have 18 a bunkie, when it was told to us, that's when I 19 spoke to 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And from that point on, he had 22 a bunkie. 23 MR. : Right. So what they 24 wrote then next - and again, we didn't write 25 this. EFTA00115969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : That's why we're here -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- to make sure that we 5 got everything right. 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : It says, "There were no 8 other emails or communications regarding the 9 matter." So I think what they mean is, you 10 didn't send out an email to anyone -- 11 MR. : No, because -. 12 MR. : -- and you didn't 13 communicate with anyone else about it? 14 MR. : No, because when I found out 15 about it, it was on the phone. 16 MR. : Okay. So you're talking 17 about on 8/8. Okay. So you're saying 18 MR. : On -. 19 MR. : So -. 20 MR. : What you mean, on 8/8? No, I'm 21 not talking about 8/8. I'm talking about prior 22 to 8/8. 23 MR. : July 30th. 24 MR. : That's prior to. On 8/8 he had 25 a bunkie, so it was nothing for me to pass down EFTA00115970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 because he had a bunkie. 2 MR. : Yeah, I thought that's 3 why you - that's what you were talking about 4 there was -. 5 MR. : No. It could - no. 6 MR. : Even those communications 7 regarding the matter 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : -- after 8 -. 10 MR. : They was talking about leading 11 up to. 12 MR. : All right. So what -- 13 MR. : So, don't -- 14 MR. : -- you're saying -. 15 MR. : -- don't get it twisted, 16 because that's not -- 17 MR. : So, I 18 MR. : -- that's not how it's supposed 19 20 MR. : I was giving you -- 21 MR. : -- to be read. 22 MR. : -- the benefit of the 23 doubt. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : I was saying that you EFTA00115971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 didn't have any other emails, communications 2 regarding the matter after - from 8/8 to 8/9. 3 MR. : Well, I'm not. 4 MR. : So what you're saying is, 5 "No, no, no, I didn't have any communications 6 with him about it at all," from July 30th to 7 8/9? 8 MR. : After I left on the 8th, he had 9 a bunkie. 10 MR. : And that's what I'm 11 saying. 12 MR. : Yes, he had a bunkie. 13 MR. : Yep. 14 MR. : So, it was - what else is there 15 to talk about? He has a bunkie. So, if he 16 doesn't have a bunkie, right, he should have a 17 bunkie. I wasn't there those other days, so 18 don't know. 19 MR. : Can I ask a question? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : The instructions you gave 22 was it the day that Epstein came back 23 from suicide watch? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : And that would be July 30th, EFTA00115972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 just -- 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- according to the data. 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Past that date, right, you 6 already mentioned past that date, did you have 7 any individual conversations with anyone or 8 send any emails from July 30th to August 8th, 9 your last day? 10 MR. : No, because 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- psychology sent out the 13 email. Why am I - people don't even read their 14 emails. So, emails - if it's not documented, 15 it's not out, how are you going to know? What 16 if you don't have access to your computer? A 17 lot of people don't have access to their 18 computers. They say, "Oh, I left my Ply card 19 at home. Oh, can I get an override?" You have 20 some Lieutenants that can't even give 21 overrides. 22 MR. : I got -. 23 MR. : I wasn't there. 24 MR. : I get -. 25 MR. : So I don't know. EFTA00115973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 MR. : You said psychology 2 sent out the instructions. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You -. 5 MR. : Psychology sent the email out. 6 MR. : So -. 7 MR. : On July 30th, correct. 8 MR. : Or whenever they sent it out. 9 You all have the email, you have all of that 10 documentation. 11 MR. : Did you get any verbal 12 instructions from anyone above you about this? 13 MR. : Yeah, from the Captains. 14 spoke to 15 MR. : And what did the Cap- what 16 did tell you exactly? 17 MR. : He said, "Hold on, the Warden 18 wants to make sure that he has a bunkie." So i 19 stayed there past my time, or whatever, to make 20 sure, you know, that he had a bunkie and when 21 they vetted whoever they vetted, and they said, 22 you know, what it was going to be, that's when 23 I spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 24 said, "The Warden, I spoke to them, I got it, 25 got you." That's it. And the next day I came EFTA00115974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he had a bunkie. 2 MR. : And you said that back - you 3 relayed that information back to 4 MR. knew, he was there. 5 MR. : Okay. Did give you 6 any other instructions along with, "Hey, make 7 sure he has a bunkie." Did he tell you, "Hey, 8 listen, let me know if this inmate gets moved?" 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Did he -. 11 MR. : If he - if the inmate got 12 removed from the cell, I wouldn't know. But I 13 wasn't there so I cannot answer that question. 14 MR. : No, no, but I 15 MR. : So this is the point of 16 our conversation, you weren't there so we need 17 to know, who knew what. 18 MR. : I -. 19 MR. : Who knew -. 20 MR. : Who -. 21 MR. : Who knew about -. 22 MR. : The Captain knew -- 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : -- the Warden knew that he had 25 to have a bunkie. Psychology knew. EFTA00115975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 MR. : But unless - how are they 2 going to find out unless someone tells them? 3 MR. : And all of the officers knew 4 that Epstein is supposed to have a bunkie. 5 That's what you want to hear? That's what 6 everybody is supposed to have. 7 MR. : Exactly. And that's -- 8 MR. : So -. 9 MR. : -- all we're asking about 10 is how did they know? You said that everyone 11 knew -- 12 MR. : It was passed -. 13 MR. : -- per (Indiscernible 14 *00:59:54). 15 MR. : It was passed down. It was 16 sent - an email was sent out and -. 17 MR. : The email wasn't sent out 18 to correctional officers -- 19 MR. : It was -. 20 MR. : -- it was sent out to 21 Lieutenants. 22 MR. : Yes. And I passed it - and it 23 was sent out I think to the - oh, is 24 on there? I don't know. 25 MR. : Okay. Let me look. EFTA00115976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MR. : Is this the email you're 2 referring to from July 30, 2019? I think some 3 of the SHU people may - they're second to the 4 last or the last page. I think second - or the 5 page you're on now towards the bottom. 6 MR. : Uh-huh. So it wasn't just sent 7 to the Lieutenants, it was sent to supervising 8 staff. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : It was sent to staff. 11 MR. : SHU staff, correct? 12 MR. is on there as a SHU 13 staff person, he got it. And like I said, 14 people don't open their emails. You see how 15 many people did not - even thee Captain. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : So, so hold on. What I'm 18 trying to explain to you is, it was spoken, 19 people knew that he was supposed to have a 20 bunkie. 21 MR. : So, again, the reason why 22 we're asking you the question, we understand 23 now that this - we have this email and we know 24 who got it. 25 MR. : I know why you're asking me the EFTA00115977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 question. 2 MR. : We're just asking what -- 3 MR. : And - and -. 4 MR. : -- you're the SHU 5 Lieutenant, what conversations did you have 6 with the people in the SHU about it? 7 MR. : That Epstein is supposed to 8 have a bunkie. 9 MR. : And that's what we mean. 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So you actually spoke to 12 people? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Because before you just 15 said basically you spoke to 16 MR. : I spoke to 17 specifically that he has a bunkie. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : And then, when I'm at work, do 20 I talk to officers? Yes, he has to have a 21 bunkie. 22 MR. : So you told anybody 23 working in there, yeah. 24 MR. : Anybody that was working with 25 me on the days that I was working, knew that he EFTA00115978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 had to have a bunkie. 2 MR. : And because you told 3 them. 4 MR. : Because I told them. 5 MR. : Okay. So everybody on -. 6 MR. : And it was posted. 7 MR. : Perfect. And this is 8 what we're saying, you had verbal 9 communications with everyone saying, "Hey, man, 10 you guys know Epstein needs a bunkie." 11 MR. : Yes, but not on those two days 12 because I wasn't there. 13 MR. : Yeah, you didn't have 14 them on that day but the people that were 15 working there worked in the SHU prior to that 16 day. 17 MR. : If they worked with me, they 18 knew he had to have a bunkie, yes. 19 MR. : Okay. And that's where - 20 when we're looking at this, you weren't there, 21 so that's why we just need to know, these 22 people know. That's why we're talking about 23 this. 24 MR. : I don't - if they worked with 25 me, with whoever, I don't remember who - every EFTA00115979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 day it changes who - daily it changes. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Some people are on overtime 4 working and I work. Okay? On the 8th, I 5 didn't work overtime. I went home. It was my 6 birthday. I went home. I wasn't supposed to 7 be there. I was supposed to be on vacation and 8 then I had military leave that weekend. I got 9 injured. So I don't know what you all are 10 trying to look for. I don't know what to tell 11 you. I don't know. 12 MR. : So we're not trying to say 13 like that - so, here's the thing. You spoke to 14 anyone who was on the shift. What's your 15 regular shift. Regular -. 16 MR. : 6:00 to 2:00. 17 MR. : So, what about any SHU 18 employees that comes on shift after you leave, 19 how would they have known? 20 MR. : The SHU 3 would know because _ 21 would tell them, "Hey, yo, he need a bunkie, 22 Epstein would need a bunkie." 23 MR. : And they -. 24 MR. : And it's written. 25 MR. : How would it -. EFTA00115980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 MR. : We pass down - you pass down 2 information. 3 MR. : Okay. So, and then the 4 next paragraph is, " advised that 5 Correctional Officer Thomas and Corrections 6 Officer Noel know that inmates on suicide watch 7 are housed with a bunkie. If Epstein were 8 spotted alone in his cell, expressed that 9 it would have been reported to the shift 10 supervisor." Is that correct? 11 MR. : It should have been reported to 12 the shift -. 13 MR. : And both Noel and Thomas, 14 both, they should have known that Epstein was 15 required to have a bunkie. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 18 - and we'll just talk about those two, do you 19 recall or do you know how they would have 20 known? Did you have -. 21 MR. : It would have been on the 22 computer. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : It would -. 25 MR. : And they would have EFTA00115981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It would -. 2 MR. : -- been sitting at that 3 computer? 4 MR. : At that computer, it would have 5 been on the desk. 6 MR. : So would either of them 7 been sitting - so when someone is in the SHU, 8 especially if you're doing the shift that they 9 were where it's like 10:00 - I think it's like 10 midnight to 8:00 a.m. or 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 11 a.m. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Would have they been 14 sitting at that computer where the - it said 15 Epstein was required to have a bunkie? 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Yes? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. Great. Thank you. 20 And it says, "If an inmate left WAB." What's 21 W-A-B? 22 MR. : W-A 23 MR. : With all belongings or 24 something? 25 MR. : Yeah, with - yeah, something to EFTA00115982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that effect. MR. : Okay. So, " would still expect his corrections officers to notify him of the vacancy." So, is that meaning that being that Epstein left, would have you expected that your officers had called you while you were on leave and let you know? MR. : No, they - you would notify a supervisor. A supervisor has rights to the roster. We know who is leaving and who is not. MR. : Did you know that Reyes was leaving? MR. : No. MR. : Is that normally cleared with you the night before or -. MR. : The court list is given out the night before. MR. : What time would it normally come in? MR. : After 4:00. MR. : And he wasn't on the list. MR. : I didn't see a court list. MR. : Okay. MR. : So I can't - you know, I was gone. EFTA00115983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 MR. : Should have they known 2 that he was going? 3 MR. : Huh? 4 MR. : I think, wasn't it the 5 judge that decided as opposed to him -. 6 MR. : Oh, I don't know. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Because I wasn't there. I 9 don't know how he left the building. But, 10 inmates could go to court and not come back. 11 MR. : It says, " noted that 12 they were short staffed. also advised 13 that Corrections Officer Thomas didn't receive 14 the training." So Thomas didn't receive, I'm 15 assuming the quarterly -. 16 MR. : He works in another department. 17 MR. : So the quarterly 18 training? 19 MR. : Yeah, he works in another 20 department. 21 MR. : But do you still believe 22 he would have known that he was required to 23 have a cell mate? 24 MR. : I mean, he worked - I mean, 25 he's got more time than me in the Bureau. EFTA00115984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : So, you know, but he worked in 3 another department, you know. I can't account 4 for what they should or should not have done 5 I don't know. 6 MR. : Yeah. But do you believe 7 that as a correctional officer as well as being 8 that the fact that that's the (Indiscernible 9 *01:07:16) -- 10 MR. : I'll put it to you this way. 11 If I'm on or in Special Housing, I'm making 12 rounds, I'm checking, I'm looking in every 13 cell, I'm making sure that everything is up to 14 nut. If I see something wrong, I'm going to 15 say something, I'm going to correct it. Okay? 16 That's me. I was an OIC before I was a SHU 17 Lieutenant. Okay? I was an officer first, so 18 - and I was a damn good one and I was a damn 19 good Lieutenant as well. So, I'm different 20 than - well, I take the job serious. Like I 21 said, my integrity is on the line at the end of 22 the day. Okay? I know how this operates. I 23 know how the Bureau operates. And that's why 24 the attorney said what he said. From the top 25 down, we're going to put everybody on notice EFTA00115985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 and I understand this is an investigation, but 2 I was not there. I can't account for on Monday 3 morning quarterback, what anybody else does. 4 Only can speak on behalf what I did. 5 MR. : Yep. And that's why 6 we're just asking you about things that led up 7 to it. 8 MR. : Yeah. Things that led up to 9 everything was done right. He was alive -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : -- when I was there. 12 MR. : And that's -. 13 MR. : He was alive when I left. 14 MR. : But being that you're the 15 Lieutenant, SHU supervisor, we wanted to just 16 know what conversations and what directions 17 were they provided prior to you -. 18 MR. : Everybody was given direction. 19 Okay? It was written, it was passed down to 20 the OIC when I got the word. When I got the 21 word, it was passed down and subsequently after 22 that, it was passed down to everybody that 23 worked. Not email, but mouth to mouth. 24 MR. : Great. 25 MR. : Okay? And it was written. So, EFTA00115986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 when even stuff you can post this now, people 2 will look at it and still do whatever they 3 want. 4 MR. : Sure. Now who wrote it, 5 do you know? 6 MR. : Who wrote it? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : I believe did. 9 MR. : Okay. So he's the one 10 who wrote it -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- and put it on his 13 computer? 14 MR. : Uh-huh. And he made the signs 15 and everything. 16 MR. : And did he do it for his 17 own knowledge or did he do it so that everyone 18 would see? 19 MR. : So everybody knows. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Just -. 22 MR. : So the purpose of it was 23 so that everyone -- 24 MR. : So that everybody -- 25 MR. : -- that worked in the SHU EFTA00115987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 2 MR. : -- that came to Special Housing 3 knew. 4 MR. : Okay. Now when the SHU 5 conducts rounds -- 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. is there supposed to 8 be at leaste one Lieutenant per shift that 9 oversees a round conducted in the SHU? 10 MR. : You're supposed to watch a 11 count, yes. 12 MR. : A count, not a round? 13 MR. : A count. 14 MR. : Okay. So, at least - so 15 you do it. You're there on a day watch. Is it 16 also like on the, you know, the morning watch 17 and the night watch? 18 MR. : This is what happens. In SHU, 19 right, in Special Housing, every shift, every 20 Operations Lieutenant is supposed to go to 21 Special Housing and make a round. 22 MR. : Even during day watch. 23 MR. : Even during day watch. 24 MR. : And was that happening? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00115988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 MR. Okay. So when you MR. : I mean, if I'm day watch operations, I make a round. But it depends because if - it depends on who is in SHU. Like, I was the SHU Lieutenant, sometimes Ops 6 Lieutenants didn't come upstairs because I was 7 upstairs. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : It's my house. So, the next 10 Lieutenant will come upstairs. So I was 11 assigned for day watch because I was there, 12 there SHU Lieutenant. All right? That's 13 what's written, right? 14 MR. : In—And that's policy? 15 MR. : And that's - well, that's 16 what's written. Okay? Policy comes and goes. 17 The Captain or Warden can write - this can be 18 policy right now because they sent this out, 19 this is the policy. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. I'm sorry. 22 MR. No, that's okay. 23 MR. : They have to have a bunkie. It 24 was posted that he had to have a bunkie. Okay? 25 Like I said, each Lieutenant is supposed to go EFTA00115989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to Special Housing. This - what, for midnight count, 3 o'clock count, 5 o'clock count, right, and the 4 o'clock count, each shift, a Lieutenant has to stand - do the count. MR. : Okay. So like, for instance, on the 9th, would that mean that, so for day watch, either or - or, no, sorry, I mean or, I guess, earlier in the day would be or later in the day would do at leaste one count in the SHU? MR. : No. That was put later. MR. : Oh, so it was after he left? MR. : Yeah. MR. : After Epstein died. MR. : Uh-huh. Yeah. MR. : What about - oh, okay, so we're talk - sorry, everything we're talking about is from the date that - August 9th and August 10th where - where -. MR. : I don't know if they went to Special Housing or not. MR. : Okay. So you're not aware that -. MR. : I'm not aware. I don't know. EFTA00115990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MR. : So there was nothing in 2 place where as prior to - you're there August 3 8th 4 MR. : I know a Lieutenant has to go 5 to Special Housing every shift. 6 MR. : Then I'm asking that 7 prior to August 9th, was that the policy? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Every Lieutenant - not every 11 Lieutenant, but a Lieutenant, especially if the 12 book says the Operations Lieutenant, has to go 13 to Special Housing. 14 MR. : So, per policy, on August 15 9th, whoever was like the - so there's a 4:00 16 p.m., there's a 10:00 p.m., there's a 12:00 17 a.m. At least one of them should have been 18 watched by -. 19 MR. : Hold on. Day watch operations 20 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. evening watch operations 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- is supposed to make rounds 25 and morning watch operations supposed to make EFTA00115991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 rounds in SHU. Three Lieutenants are supposed 2 to go to Special Housing. 3 MR. : I know, but what I'm - so 4 I understand they're supposed to go there. But 5 when they're there, they're actually supposed 6 to conduct a count of the -- 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : -- inmates? 9 MR. : No. That's the officers' job. 10 MR. : So but that's what we 11 just asked you and you said -- 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : -- "Yes, they were 14 required (Indiscernible *01:13:31) -- 15 MR. : No, I said they're required 16 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 17 *01:13:32)." 18 MR. : -- to go to Special Housing to 19 make a round. That's what I said. 20 MR. : So is that round independent 21 of the rounds conducted by the SHU officers? 22 MR. : The round is - you go up to 23 supervise the officers. You go up to Special 24 Housing. 25 MR. : So what would -. EFTA00115992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 MR. : Now, prior to Epstein, every 2 like I said, every Lieutenant is different. 3 When I go up to make a round, I walk the 4 ranges. That's me. I can't account for 5 everybody else. I don't know what they've 6 done. I mean, I don't know. 7 MR. : So -. 8 MR. : I wasn't there. 9 MR. : So what we're asking it, 10 up until August 8, 2019, were Lieutenants ever 11 required to monitor any rounds conducted in the 12 SHU by the officers or counts? 13 MR. : Yeah, but it's a 30 minute 14 round thing. It's going to say Operations on 15 it, right? 16 MR. : But -. 17 MR. : You have the documentation 18 right there and it has three shifts on it, 19 doesn't it? Yes or no? 20 MR. : But I'm not asking if it 21 changes. 22 MR. : What are you asking me? 23 MR. : Listen to the question. 24 If - is a Lieutenant required to go to the SHU 25 and watch the officers conduct either a round EFTA00115993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 or a count? Not just visit the SHU, but are 2 they supposed to watch them actually conduct a 3 round or a count? 4 MR. : That was implemented 5 afterwards. 6 MR. : Okay. So up until August 7 9th, that wasn't - August 8th -. 8 MR. : We did bed bunk counts. 9 MR. : So Lieutenants were not 10 actually monitoring officers do rounds or 11 counts. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And there was no 14 requirement. 15 MR. : Because we're required to take 16 a count. 17 MR. : I know the -- 18 MR. : So -. 19 MR. : SHU staff is required 20 to take a count. 21 MR. : It's - no, the Lieutenant is 22 required to take either the 4:00 p.m. or the 23 10:00 p.m. count. 24 MR. : Okay. So, on August 9th, 25 a SHU - you're saying one of these Lieutenant, EFTA00115994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 either the - you're not there, so either the 2 Ops Lieutenant or the Activities Lieutenant -. 3 MR. : What day is August 9th? 4 Friday, right? 5 MR. : August 9th is a Friday. 6 MR. : So, is there a SHU Lieutenant 7 on there? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : No, there's no SHU 10 Lieutenant because you're not there. 11 MR. : So Operations is supposed to 12 MR. : So Operation - 13 MR. : Operations or Activities was 14 supposed to go to SHU. 15 MR. : So it says, " worked 16 from -" - and I don't know what a BV - 0700 to 17 1500 or are they 0800 to 1600? 18 MR. : I don't know whatever it say. 19 MR. : All right. So 20 possibly was there until 4:00 p.m. Yeah, it 21 looks like that. It would be, he would be 22 there from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., and 23 the would be there from 4:00 p.m. until 24 midnight. 25 MR. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 MR. : So would it be that 2 would be at that 4:00 p.m. count or would it be 3 that would be at the -. 4 MR. 5 MR. : So would do both 6 the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m.? 7 MR. : He can either do the 4:00 p.m. 8 or the 10:00 p.m. He's required to do -- 9 MR. : Oh, one or the other? 10 MR. : -- one count. 11 MR. : Okay. So, should 12 have been present for one count in the SHU on 13 August 9th. 14 MR. : I can't say that. 15 MR. : No, no. I'm saying 16 MR. : He's required to take the 17 count, official count. 18 MR. : So when you're saying 19 he's supposed to control and receive the count. 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : What I'm asking is any 22 Lieutenant supposed to be in SHU -- 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : -- that - okay. 25 MR. : No. EFTA00115996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : That was afterwards that they 3 put out they wanted bed bunk count in SHU, you 4 know, that was after the fact. 5 MR. : Okay. So no Lieutenants 6 up until August 8th when you were there ever 7 had to be present for a count. 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But before this 11 MR. : You said -. 12 MR. -- incident happened -- 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : -- was it policy that a 15 Lieutenant during this shift had to go into the 16 SHU and do one round? Not a count, a round? 17 MR. : Yeah. That's - I said that. 18 MR. : Yeah, but what he's 19 asking is, a round as in like getting eyes on 20 the inmates or do you mean just visiting the 21 SHU? 22 MR. : Like I said, everybody's 23 interpretation of a round is different. I 24 cannot answer for another Lieutenant. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00115997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : Only can answer for me. 2 MR. : So how you did it. We're 3 asking -. 4 MR. : How I did it. Now you're 5 asking the question, how I did it. When I go 6 to Special Housing, I sign the book that I came 7 to Special Housing. I walk down the range. I 8 look at every inmate. I talk to every inmate. 9 That's when - talked to me. 10 MR. : That's how you did it. 11 We're asking policy. Does policy - did policy 12 dictate that, for instance, should have 13 gone down during his shift and gone - did what 14 you would do? Talk to -. 15 MR. : Every - like I said, every-. 16 MR. : I'm just - I know 17 everyone is different but does policy say they 18 have to? 19 MR. : No. No, it doesn't. 20 MR. : Okay. So. 21 MR. : It just says that you have to 22 make SHU rounds. 23 MR. : Right. So in a -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : SHU round, two - one EFTA00115998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 person could be just popping in, "Everything 2 good? You're good?" That could be somebody's 3 interpretation 4 MR. : That could be their round. 5 MR. : -- of a round. 6 MR. : That could be an interpretation 7 8 MR. : And others - another 9 Lieutenant could go and say, "Hey, I want to 10 conduct a count with you." And another one 11 would say -- 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- "No, I'm just going to 14 - I'm going to pop in." 15 MR. : Everybody is different. Yes. 16 MR. : Right. But policy never 17 said they needed to actually put eyes on the 18 inmates just to pop in and say, "Hi." 19 MR. : Yeah. Where does it say it? 20 Show me. Because I -. 21 MR. : That's what I'm asking. 22 MR. : I don't - I never seen it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I never seen it. 25 MR. : It's not a gotcha you, EFTA00115999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 we're asking -. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : We're literally asking -- 4 MR. : I know. 5 MR. : -- you as the 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. 7 MR. : I know because you don't know, 8 but I'm telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, 9 right, after, and even before Epstein, you 10 know, they had it - it was, we had them on the 11 ranges so the two can physically, you know, be 12 accurate with, you know, with what you had to 13 write, or whatever. They're printed sheets. 14 Right? The dates change. Some of them are 15 handwritten. Everybody's interpretation of a 16 round is different. I was an officer. I don't 17 forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make 18 a round. 19 MR. : Does policy state what a 20 round consists of? Can I find that in policy: 21 MR. : A 30 minute round? I mean, 22 checking on the inmates. It says in policy, 23 inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that 24 are in the continuous lock down situation, all 25 right, want e (Indizccrniblc *01:19:25) to EFTA00116000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 quote policy, are supposed to be checked on 2 every 30 minutes. Right? And then the special 3 policy says in Special Housing, because they 4 are continuously locked down and technically on 5 morning watch, everybody is supposed to go 6 check on inmates. 7 MR. : That description of rounds, 8 does that apply to a Lieutenant's round or is 9 that something different? 10 MR. : That round applies - it doesn't 11 say, "Lieutenant," it just says that you're 12 supposed to -. 13 MR. : What he's saying is that, 14 Lieutenant rounds, they're doing rounds with 15 their staff members and they can choose to go 16 in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Is a 17 correctional officer round is doing a round of 18 the inmates? 19 MR. : Yeah, correctional officers 20 look at the inmates. So what you want me to do 21 as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the 22 officer? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm 25 just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got EFTA00116001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 to go around, see everybody, make sure I don't 2 people - make sure people are awake because if 3 I'm awake, you're awake. Okay, if I'm walking 4 around, I'm up. 5 MR. : We were just trying to get 6 (Indiscernible *01:20:33). 7 MR. : No, no, no. I know. I just - 8 I'm just - I know that's what the policy 9 states. But everybody, like I said, their 10 interpretation of the policy is different, and 11 like myself, I'm checking on inmates. 12 Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want 13 to walk down the range. But do I walk down the 14 range of every housing unit? No. 15 MR. : Is it ever acceptable 16 for, you know, even from the midnight to, you 17 know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 18 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the 19 SHU to fall asleep? 20 MR. : No, it's not acceptable. 21 MR. : And it's not acceptable 22 even if one staff says, "I'm going to sleep, 23 you stay awake." 24 MR. : No, it's not acceptable. 25 MR. : Okay. Not acceptable. EFTA00116002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 Great. 2 MR. : Now, we are human. Right? So, 3 on occasion, "Hey, get up, go take a walk." 4 MR. : But if both are -- 5 MR. : Throw some water. 6 MR. : -- both are sitting there 7 falling asleep together, that's not -. 8 MR. : Somebody got - that's - then 9 that's - hey, I can't -. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : You know. It's just like this. 12 I do hospital trips. I can't go to sleep. 13 Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a 14 hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got 15 the weapon, I'm dead. Or, we live in a world, 16 now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. 17 MR. : Yep. 18 MR. : So, I just - I stood the watch, 19 I ain't sleeping. Stood the watch. 20 MR. : Sure. You mentioned the 21 files that are printed out on Sundays and then 22 you would, you know, review in the mornings -- 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- but you weren't the 25 one that printed them out, on Sundays, they EFTA00116003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 would. We received information that when 2 Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get 3 the file and the file didn't really have 4 anything in it. It's pos- with the indication 5 that someone may have taken those files. Do 6 you know anything about that file being -. 7 MR. : I know that that file was there 8 when I left. 9 MR. : Do you know if it had -. 10 MR. : That's all I know. 11 MR. : Do you remember how many 12 documents were in that file? 13 MR. : It was limited. 14 MR. : So it was very little? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Only a few pieces of 17 paper then? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And was that because if 20 he was placed in the house - the SHU on the 21 30th, there's only one Sunday that went by 22 since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the 23 next - there's only one day that would have had 24 information in there? Would that be why it was 25 limited? EFTA00116004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Remember, he was in SHU from 2 the time that he got there, right? He was 3 taken out of SHU, he was placed with a bunkie. 4 He tried to hang himself. He went down, he was 5 on suicide watch. I don't know how long he was 6 on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch 7 and we got that email. And I got that email, 8 got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. 9 Then I heard from the Warden looking for a 10 bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it's 11 not coming from me, it's coming from the top. 12 Okay. So I said, "All right," so I'm here. 13 was still there, the Warden was still 14 there. It was getting past my time I got to be 15 back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when 16 I got word, they said, "We got him a bunkie." 17 Spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 18 stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was 19 placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an 20 opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on 21 suicide watch. I took him up to attorney 22 conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask 23 me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he 24 wanted rec or whatever. I said, "You can get 25 rec." Whatever he needed, and it was there EFTA00116005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 from the institution, he got. Whether it was 2 clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 everybody else, and he was afforded all the opportunities just like every other inmate. So, I don't know what else you all want to know. MR. : Tcc zhirt,So you said phone calls. So would he get phone calls when he was in the SHU? MR. : He was - you're afforded to get a phone call. MR. : So, whcruhere wouldeve3 you call MR. : When the team gives you -- MR. : Where we gctwould MR. : -- his pin and pad number, or whatever. MR. : Where arc sic getting thewould he be able to call from? MR. : But - huh? MR. : Where arc gcttingwould MR. : On the range. He would get it on the range. MR. : Not in the SHU then? MR. : Yeah, in the SHU. EFTA00116006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : That's where you plug it 2 into? 3 MR. : Yeah, plug it in -- 4 MR. : Now, would -- 5 MR. one of the jacks. 6 MR. : -- would they be 7 monitored calls? 8 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. 9 MR. : And then you like 10 document it -- 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- in the log book? 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : All right. And then 15 MR. : Put it in the log book and then 16 it would be on the computer, you know, if the 17 call went through, whatever, and you can look 18 at the monitored calls. 19 MR. : Back to the file. If 20 anything -- 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : -- that went on in the 23 should that have been documented in the file or 24 placed in the file, would that all be 25 electronically stored as well? So even if it EFTA00116007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 wasn't printed out, could we -- 2 MR. : Only -. 3 MR. : -- after the fact go in 4 and say, "This is what should have been in the 5 file?" 6 MR. : This is what you could do. 7 This is what you could do. You can go back and 8 ask them for the 583 packet that was created 9 when he first committed suicide. 10 MR. : We have that, sure. 11 MR. : Okay? There's - that's his 12 file. As this AD order, why he was placed in 13 SHU, right? 14 MR. : But didn't you say you -- 15 MR. : And -. 16 MR. : -- document the food and 17 you document all that other stuff? 18 MR. : The 292s, right? If it's not 19 printed, it might be in the system, but once 20 he's removed from the system, his BOP number, 21 don't know what happens after that. 22 MR. : All right. So, point 23 being is if he's no longer in the system, then 24 the file may no longer be in the -. 25 MR. : Yeah. Just like if I go into EFTA00116008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 SENTRY and I will pull up his number, SENTRY 2 would tell me that he's deceased. 3 MR. : But if he was still in 4 the system, should all the - whatever was in -. 5 MR. : He can't - because SENTRY and 6 BO