DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00116060 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00116061 3 1 MR. The recorder is on. My 2 name is nd I'm a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 MR. Thank you, sir. 7 MR. Z: This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons, employee, 9 is being conducted as part of an 10 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 11 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 12 date is July 14, 2021 and the time is 1:14 13 p.m.? 14 MR. Yes. 15 MR. This interview is being 16 conducted at the Metropolitan Correctional 17 Center in New York, New York, also known as the 18 MCC. Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 19 This interview will be recorded 20 by me, SSA Could everyone 21 please identify themselves for the record and 22 spell your last name. To start, again, I am 23 DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 24 25 MR. 'Ill.,: This is DOJ OIG Special Agent EFTA00116062 4 1 2 MR.IMIN Lieutenant 3 work for the Bureau of Prisons at MCC 4 New York. 5 MR. MATULEWICZ: Could you just spell your 6 last name for the record? 7 MR. 8 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 9 an official DOJ OIG investigation into the 10 death of inmate Jeffery Epstein and the 11 surrounding circumstances and you're being 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. : Yes, thank you. All 17 right, so we got that form, it's the DOJ OIG 18 form 11I-226/2. It says, "The United States 19 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 20 General Warnings and Assurances to Employee 21 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 22 Basis. You are being asked to provide 23 information as part of an investigation being 24 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00116063 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to security failure and job performance failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceeding or both." And there's a waiver section. It says, "I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to questions. made to me make a statement and answer No promises or threats have been and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." And as mentioned, this is something that we provide everybody for voluntary interviews, so you're being asked, you know, we just provide these warnings to everyone just knowing it's voluntary, you can stop at any time, you don't have to answer our questions. Do you understanding? MR. Yes, sir, I understand. MR. All right. So, if you EFTA00116064 6 1 want to review it yourself, please feel free 2 otherwise there's employee signature and then 3 employee name below. Thank you for signing, 4 sir. I'm going to sign for the Office of the 5 Inspector General Special Agent. And I'm 6 writing my name, The date 7 is 7/14/2021. 8 MR. 1:16. 9 MR. The place is - the time 10 is 1:16 -- 11 MR. Sixteen. 12 MR. -- p.m. The place is MCC 13 New York. Special Agent can you please 14 sign as the signature witness and place your 15 name as the name of witness. 16 MR. This is Special Ageni 17 I'm signing at a witness. 18 MR. And as I mentioned, 19 Lieutenant I believe, were you 20 interviewed prior by the OIG and the FBI? 21 MR. Yes, I was. 22 MR. •: All right, as mentioned, 23 there's a report that I have here. I don't 24 even think that it's worth going over because 25 there's not really much in it. So, the reason EFTA00116065 7 1 for us to - for interviewing you is to kind of 2 - you were the OIC is our understanding on 3 August 9th, is that correct -- 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. -- of 2019? And just to 6 kind of ask you questions related to what you 7 know about what happened on August 9th and 8 August 10th of 2019. Before starting the 9 interview, I'd like to place you under oath, 10 Lieutenantl i Can you please raise your 11 right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and 12 nothing but the truth during this interview? 13 MR Yes, I do. 14 MR. Thank you, sir. If it's 15 something that you don't understand, just ask 16 me to rephrase and I'll try to clarify anything 17 like that. What is your current home address? 18 MR. 19 20 MR. : And what is your date of 21 birth? 22 MR. 23 MR. And what is your social 24 security number? 25 MR. EFTA00116066 8 1 MR. What is your current cell 2 phone? 3 MR. MOM 4 MR. And what is your highest 5 level of education? 6 MR. 7 MR. And where did you go to 8 high school? 9 MR. Graphic Arts in the city. 10 MR. In New York City? 11 MR. Yes, New York City. 12 MR. And what was it called. 13 MR. Graphic Communication of 14 Arts. 15 MR. Okay. Cool. Is that 16 like some kind of like -. 17 MR. It's on 49th Street and 18 10th Avenue. It was a -- 19 MR. S Like a -. 20 MR. -- advertisement high 21 school. 22 MR. : Oh, that's neat. 23 MR. Yeah. It was cool. 24 MR. This is not really to do 25 with the interview, but is that like something EFTA00116067 9 1 you get to, like -. 2 MR. Well I can draw a little 3 bit and do a little bit of graphic design 4 MR. Oh, neat. 5 -- from high school. Not 6 too much but that's what I went to high school 7 for. 8 MR. IMO. : That's neat. What did 9 you do prior to working for the BOP? 10 MR. I was in the United States 11 Army and I worked for a hotel. 12 MR. Okay. As far as being 13 with the Army, when were you in the Army? MR. MOM 14 I started in 1998. I was 15 in the National Guard and then I went active 16 duty in 2005. 17 MR. Okay. When did you - are 18 you still in the Reserves? 19 MR. No, I'm completely done 20 with the military. 21 MR. When did you get out? 22 MR. 2011. 23 MR. Was it an honorable 24 discharge? 25 MR. Yes it was. EFTA00116068 10 1 MR. : And what was your rank at 2 -. 3 MR. Corporal. 4 MR. : Corporal? And what was 5 that? E what? 6 MR. E-4. 7 MR. E-4. Thank you for your 8 service. And then you said you worked for a 9 hotel, how long did you do that? 10 MR. Before the military, I did 11 it for three years. I came back, I did it for 12 one year and then I got this job. 13 MR. Okay. So just prior to 14 being with the BOP 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. -- you did - and what did 17 you do there? 18 MR. Banquet Steward. 19 MR. : And everything go with 20 leaving there, was everything copacetic? 21 MR. : Correct. 22 MR Okay. How long have you 23 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 24 MR. Since 2014, September 21st 25 would make seven years. EFTA00116069 11 1 MR Seven years? Okay. And 2 do you know your specific enter on duty date? 3 MR. September 21, 2014. 4 MR. Thank you, sir. When did 5 you graduate from BOP training? 6 MR. 2015, April. April 2015. 7 MR. Okay. And how long have 8 you been with the MCC? 9 MR. The whole time, seven years 10 11 MR. Okay. 12 MR. in September. 13 MR. : You're here the whole 14 time. 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. : All right. And you said 17 you're currently a Lieutenant? 18 MR. Correct. 19 MR. When were you promoted to 20 Lieutenant? 21 MR. March 1, 2020, last year. 22 MR. Okay. And what was your 23 rank or title in August of 2019? 24 MR. I was a Senior Office 25 Specialist. EFTA00116070 12 1 MR. Okay. And I have a staff 2 roster here. Here's the - it's going to be on 3 August 9th and then August 10th, it's just for 4 you to refer to, so you don't have to 5 necessarily recall. But what shift did you 6 work on August 9th and August 10th? 7 MR. So, August 10th, which that 8 should be a Saturday, I was off the weekend and 9 Friday I worked from 6:00 to 2:00 in the 10 Special Housing Unit. 11 MR. Okay. And what was your 12 position when you were in the Special Housing 13 Unit? 14 MR. I was an OIC. 15 MR. And what does OIC stand 16 for? 17 MR. The Officer in Charge. 18 MR. And what were those 19 duties and responsibilities as the OIC of the 20 SHU? 21 MR. Pretty much maintaining 22 paperwork, making sure everything is conducted 23 according to BOP policy. 24 MR. Okay. And who was your 25 supervisor? EFTA00116071 13 1 MR. ieutenant Perez. 2 MR. Lieutenant Perez? It 3 wasn't Lieutenant Rice? 4 MR. Well, actually yes, yes, 5 Lieutenant Rice, I'm sorry, yes. 6 MR. And he was the SHU 7 Lieutenant? 8 MR. Yes. 9 MR. Okay. Great. Now I'm 10 going to - we're going to keep these documents 11 in front of you because as we go through the 12 interview, I'll probably ask you about 13 different people and you can just refer to it. 14 When I do provide you - do you have an extra 15 pen? When I do provide you with documents, do 16 you mind just so that for interview purposes, 17 we - it's not to certify anything is accurate, 18 it's simply to say this is the document that I 19 showed you. So can you just like initial and 20 date on the top of each document that I show 21 you, and it doesn't mean, go through the 22 packet, it's just the top page. So, this one 23 for instance, is the daily assignment roster 24 for Saturday, August 10, 2019 and this one is 25 the daily assignment roster for Friday, August EFTA00116072 14 1 9, 2019. And again, it's simply to - you don't 2 have to do each page, it's just -. 3 MR You're not attesting to it. 4 MR. Yeah. 5 MR. It's just 6 MR. Yeah. 7 MR. It's just 8 MR. You're not attesting that 9 it's certified or anything, you know, that it's 10 accurate. It's just to say that these are the 11 documents that we looked at. 12 MR. : Yes, sir. 13 MR. Would you mind - thank 14 you for initialing. You mind just putting the 15 date? It's 7/14 -- 16 MR. 14. 17 MR. -- 2021. Thank you, sir. 18 All right. Are you familiar with inmate 19 Jeffrey Epstein? 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. Did you work in the SHU 22 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU in July 23 and August of 2019? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. During that time, did EFTA00116073 15 1 2 3 4 Epstein have a cell mate? MR. es, he did. MR. Do you recall who that cell mate was? 5 MR. I don't know, it was a 6 Spanish guy, I don't remember his name exactly. 7 MR. So I'm assuming you're 8 talking about the second of the two inmates. 9 MR. The first one was 10 Tartaglione. The second one maybe Perez. 11 MR. Reyes, does that sound 12 MR. eyes, yes. 13 MR. Okay. So -. 14 MR. older gentleman -- 15 MR. Okay. 16 MR. - walked with a cane. 17 MR. And do you know if there 18 was a specific reason why those cell mates were 19 assigned to Epstein? 20 MR. I think Psychology said 21 22 it's just their category, they're older, same age. 23 MR. Okay. So are you aware, 24 since you said Psychology, did Psychology say 25 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? EFTA00116074 16 1 MR. Well, we always practice, 2 if somebody comes off of suicide watch, they 3 have to go with a cell mate until Psychology 4 clears them to be alone. 5 MR Okay. 6 MR. But whoever has history of 7 trying to commit suicide has to go with a 8 bunkie. 9 MR Okay. So were you aware 10 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 11 July 23rd -- 12 MR. Yes, I was. 13 MR. -- of 2019? Were you one 14 of the responding officers? 15 MR. o, I was not. 16 MR. Do you know what 17 transpired on that date? 18 MR. No, I do not. 19 MR. Did you hear anything 20 about him either trying to commit suicide or 21 potentially that Tartaglione attempted to harm 22 him? 23 MR. I saw that in the papers 24 that Tartaglione wanted to harm him but all I 25 heard that he was trying to commit suicide. EFTA00116075 17 1 MR. All right, do you - is 2 there any reason for you to believe that 3 Tartaglione was trying to harm him? 4 MR. o. 5 MR. No? 6 MR. hey always got along. 7 MR. They did always get 8 along? 9 MR. Yes, sir. They'd always 10 get along. 11 MR Okay. And then you said, 12 following that attempt, he was placed - Epstein 13 was placed on suicide watch? 14 MR. Yes, with being watched on 15 the second floor. 16 MR. Okay. And what floor is 17 the SHU on? 18 MR. 9th. 19 MR. The 9th floor. Okay. So 20 the suicide watch and the psychological 21 observation area is all on the 2nd floor? 22 MR. orrect. 23 MR. All right. Was he 24 removed from suicide watch? 25 MR. Yes he was, afterwards. EFTA00116076 18 1 MR. Do you have any idea 2 around when that was? 3 MR. That I do not remember. 4 MR. Does July 30, 2019 sound 5 about right? 6 MR wouldn't -. 7 MR Or, I guess I should ask 8 this question first. Is there a difference 9 between suicide watch and psychological 10 observation? 11 MR. Well, psychological 12 observation, you would have all your clothes 13 on. 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. Suicide watch is because 16 you attempted suicide so you're going to be 17 with a smock, in the nude, just a suicide smock 18 and some booties 19 MR. Okay. 20 MR. - with nothing else. 21 MR. And do you know if the 22 entire time that Epstein was on the 2nd floor 23 outside of the SHU, was he in the suicide watch 24 or was he both suicide watch and psychological? 25 MR. If I'm not mistaken, he was EFTA00116077 19 1 on suicide watch the whole time. 2 MR. Okay. So you believe 3 that he was actually -- 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. -- in a smock the whole 6 time. 7 MR. orrect. 8 MR. Okay. And what does 9 suicide watch entail? 10 MR. You're being watched 24 11 hours. 12 MR By who? 13 MR By an inmate or staff. 14 MR Okay. And do you know if 15 Epstein was watched by either or, or both. 16 MR. I think he was just by 17 inmates, if I'm not mistaken. 18 MR. : Inmates and what is the 19 inmates' responsibilities while they're 20 watching him? 21 MR. : Well, they constantly 22 observe you in every - they got to annotate 23 every rounds that they do, or every 15 minutes 24 they write down what the inmate is doing. 25 MR. Okay. Did you ever hear EFTA00116078 20 1 of any issues or anything while he was on 2 there? 3 MR 4 MRS No? 5 MR 6 MR And what's the 7 difference, what does the psychological 8 observation? 9 MR. Psychological observation 10 is pretty much is - you're in the same place, 11 just with your clothes on. 12 MR. : And same, you have an 13 inmate (Indiscernible *00:12:35) -. 14 MR.-: You have an inmate watching 15 you at all times, yes. 16 MR. Okay. So for both, it's 17 the same, just the clothes is the only 18 difference? 19 MR. Correct. 20 MR. Okay. Did you receive 21 instructions from anyone regarding Epstein 22 being assigned a cell mate after he came back 23 from the 2nd floor and placed back into the 24 SHU? 25 MR. No. I just did it on my EFTA00116079 21 1 own. 2 MR. : Okay. So no one - you 3 don't recall ever being instructed -- 4 MR. o I -. 5 MR. -- to place him with -. 6 MR. don't recall getting a 7 phone call saying, "Put him -" - like I said 8 before, it's we practice, if you're leaving the 9 2nd floor, you automatically go upstairs with a 10 cell mate. 11 MR. : Okay. So, did you ever 12 receive any kind of information from either 13 Lieutenant Rice or Psychology saying that 14 Epstein was required to be housed with a cell 15 mate? 16 MR. : Well we knew already and 17 Lieutenant Rice pretty much said, "G, don't 18 forget to put him with a bunkie." 19 MR. : Okay. Did you - and I 20 don't believe that you received it directly, 21 but did you ever see this email? It says - 22 sorry, let me see, it's who is 23 that? 24 MR. That used to - she was a 25 Psychologist, one of the Psychologists in the EFTA00116080 22 1 building. 2 MR. Okay. And it says, it's 3 to "Suicide Watch/Psych Observation update." 4 It says it's dated July 30, 2019 at 12:30 p.m. 5 The subject of the email says, "Inmate Epstein 6 is being taken off of psych observation and 7 needs to be housed with an appropriate cell 8 mate." Did you ever see that by chance? 9 MR. : No. I don't remember this. 10 MR. IMINIIIMM Okay. But you knew that 11 he was required to have a cell mate. 12 MR. Yes. 13 MR. : All right. And you said 14 Lieutenant did inform you? 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. Okay. Did you mind just 17 -- 18 MR. Oh. 19 MR. -- initialing and dating 20 that? So you don't recall ever receiving any 21 other written -- 22 MR. No. 23 MR. -- communication 24 regarding the matter? After Lieutenant 25 spoke with you about him being required to have EFTA00116081 23 1 a cell mate, did you communicate that 2 requirement to anyone else in the SHU? 3 MR. Just in SHU. "All right 4 guys, he needs a bunkie." 5 MR. Okay. And was that 6 something that you communicated only on the 7 date he came back on July 30 or would that be 8 something that you all would communicate 9 throughout his stay in the SHU? 10 MR. Well, we constantly just 11 made sure since he was a high-profile inmate 12 and we actually placed him right on the top 13 tier so where we can see - where the OIC bubble 14 was right on top just because of that reason 15 and we, "Hey, you got a bunkie?" "Yes." 16 Because he was always going to his legal visits 17 pretty much the whole day. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. When he came back, made 20 sure he had a bunkie. 21 MR. a: Okay. And would you also 22 work then that night watch in the SHU? 23 MR as I working? 24 MR Not that day, but in 25 between July 30th and August 9th, do you know EFTA00116082 24 1 if you would have worked that night watch? 2 MR. I'm pretty sure I did. I'm 3 pretty sure I did. And all my overtime was 4 always in the SHU. 5 MR. Okay. And do you believe 6 then that everyone who worked in the SHU would 7 have known that inmate Epstein was required to 8 have a cell mate? 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. All right. And what 11 makes you believe that? 12 MR. : It's part of pretty much 13 the SHU training. 14 MR. Okay. When you say, "SHU 15 training," what training are you referring to 16 and what was taught? 17 MR. Special Housing Unit 18 training is, once again, the policy of what to 19 do in Special Housing Unit, how to conduct 20 rounds, how to deal with an inmate that is 21 coming off of suicide watch and part of our SHU 22 training is the psychologists speaking to us 23 and breaking down and what to do when an inmate 24 comes off suicide watch, what signs to look for 25 and pretty much making sure you're doing the EFTA00116083 25 1 right thing when somebody comes up from suicide 2 watch. 3 MR. Okay. So is there any 4 way that people would know that if they didn't 5 attend the quarterly - you're talking about the 6 quarterly SHU training? 7 MR. orrect. 8 MR. Is there any way that 9 people that didn't - like people on overtime 10 shifts or people that didn't actually get to 11 take that quarterly training yet, would know 12 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 13 No, they would not know 14 that. 15 MR. They would not know? 16 MR. hey would not know that. 17 MR. And did you communicate 18 with people though? I know you're saying that 19 they knew based upon training, but did you ever 20 communicate with the people working in the SHU 21 that Epstein was required to have a bunk mate 22 at all times? 23 MR. Well, whoever worked in SHU 24 would pass it down, "Hey, make sure this guy 25 stays with -" - whether it's him or anybody EFTA00116084 26 1 else, I know we're talking specifically about 2 him, but whether it was him or anybody else, we 3 all would say, "Hey, make sure this guy has a 4 bunkie." 5 MR. : Okay. But you can't 6 remember any specific conversations? 7 MR. No. No. 8 MR. Okay. Were there any 9 signs hanging up anywhere in the SHU that said 10 Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 11 MR. No. 12 MR. All right. 13 MR. No that I -. 14 MR. So someone mentioned that 15 -. 16 MR. So, I put one of my own - 17 it was in bright orange paper. I put it next 18 to the computer. It's nothing like from BOP or 19 anything, it was just something between us, 20 that said, "Make sure rounds are conducted and 21 he has a bunkie at all times." Yes, that was 22 me. 23 MR. Okay. So this document 24 I'm showing, it says, "Mandatory rounds must be 25 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per EFTA00116085 27 1 God." This is what you're referring to? And 2 where was this hanging? 3 MR. On the SHU OIC computer, 4 right next to it. 5 MR. All right. Awesome. So 6 I was assuming that this might be a confusion, 7 but someone mentioned that there was also a 8 color document saying that Epstein was required 9 to have a cell mate. Was that ever on the OIC 10 computer or anywhere else? 11 MR. IIIIIIIII You know what? If it was 12 color, it was - I probably made it because we 13 always had a stack of orange, that was my 14 telling everybody, "Do what you're supposed to 15 do." 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. But I did this, I know, 18 because I typed it up and I put it up there. 19 Now the -. 20 MR. So this is the one that 21 you remember is the -- 22 MR. Correct. 23 MR. -- one I just showed you. 24 MR. Correct. 25 MR. Okay. And that was on EFTA00116086 28 1 the OIC's computer? 2 MR. There's two computers on 3 the desk. If you see, it's right like you 4 can't miss it. 5 MR. And is -. 6 MR. It's bright orange paper 7 and black lettering. 8 MR. And is that where 9 everybody that works in the SHU, are they all 10 in that same area? 11 MR. Everybody goes to that 12 station. 13 MR. So everybody that was in 14 the SHU or ever worked in the SHU would have 15 seen at least that document that you created? 16 MR es. 17 MR And do you remember when 18 that document was created? 19 MR. I think I did that maybe a 20 couple of weeks after he came upstairs. 21 MR. And is that initially or 22 after he came back from suicide watch? 23 MR. The first time he went 24 down, when he came up the second time. 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00116087 29 1 MR. 'hat - when he was 2 MR. Sometime after July 30th 3 but prior to August 9th -- 4 MR. Correct. 5 MR. -- it would have been up. 6 MR. Correct. 7 MR. Okay. You can't remember 8 - sometime between there. Definitely prior to 9 August 9th. 10 MR. Definitely prior to him 11 coming - or that happening. 12 MR. And do you believe it was 13 at least a few days prior to that as well? 14 MR. : It think it was maybe as 15 soon as he came upstairs from suicide watch -- 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. - I put it up there. 18 MR. Okay. But certainly 19 prior to August 9, 2019. 20 MR. Correct, yes. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. Yes. 23 MR. And you do not require 24 any signs identifying Epstein's cell mate 25 requirement? Was there ever anything on EFTA00116088 30 1 Epstein's cell door, even on July 30th or 2 anything like that? Do you recall anything 3 like that? 4 MRIIIIIIIIIII I mean, we had orange paper 5 hanging all over the place, but I don't recall 6 one saying he has to have a bunkie. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. e practice, you come up 9 from suicide watch, you get a bunkie 10 MR. 11 MR. -- no matter who you are. 12 MR Got a question here. 13 MR. Yeah, go ahead. 14 MR As for God, is that referring 15 to somebody or God? 16 MR. That's just, you know, 17 okay, God is watching us, we got to do the 18 right thing. 19 MR. Okay. 20 MR. So you're referring to 21 this is the question I had before. Are you 22 referring to God himself, not calling the 23 Warden or the Captain or somebody God? 24 MR. Oh no, just God himself. 25 MR. All right. So that's the : All right. EFTA00116089 31 1 one sign you can remember that was up -- 2 MR Yes. 3 MR -- requiring rounds but 4 nothing to do with a cell mate. 5 MR. Nothing to do with a cell 6 mate. 7 MR. All right. What is the 8 hot list? 9 The hot list is inmates 10 that have tried to commit suicide in the past 11 and that's posted in Special Housing Unit. 12 MR. Okay. And where in the 13 Special Housing Unit would have been the hot 14 list located on August 9th? 15 MR. Right next to the second 16 phone, next to the cage where we keep MIR 17 (Phonetic Sp. *00:20:31), camera, radio 18 holders. 19 MR. •: Would it have been like 20 on the desk or behind the desk or -. 21 MR 11, we have a hot list, 22 it's next to the phone, that's where it's at. 23 It's a yellow - or it was a yellow binder. 24 MR. Is there only one phone 25 in the SHU? EFTA00116090 32 1 MR. here's three. 2 MR. Three? 3 MR. hree. 4 MR. So one of the phones it 5 was next to? 6 MR. 7 MR. Was it hanging on the 8 wall? 9 MR. es. 10 MR. Okay. Is it like some 11 kind of a bulletin board type of area or like - 12 . 13 MR. It's a - we have our cage 14 with some of the equipment -- 15 MR. Okay. 16 MR. -- and the phone right next 17 to it, it's right in between. That's where it 18 was before. 19 MR. And do you know if 20 Epstein was listed on the hot list on or around 21 August 9th? 22 MR. If I'm not mistaken, I 23 think he was. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. I think he was. Correct. EFTA00116091 33 1 MR. Would have he been listed 2 on the hot list when he came back on July 30? 3 MR. es. 4 MR. Okay. And how do people 5 get placed on - if he was on July 30th, when 6 would an inmate be removed from that hot list? 7 MR. Well, that's Psychology 8 once their finished with their whatever they 9 do, reports or evaluations on the inmate. 10 MR. So how does that work? 11 Is it they - an inmate is removed from the hot 12 list if they're no longer a threat of 13 committing suicide? 14 MR. think that's what it is. 15 MR. Okay. 16 MR. never really looked into 17 that one 18 MR. And does Epstein - I 19 mean, not does Epstein, does Psychology, are 20 they the ones that provide you the hot list? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. Who do they provide it 23 to? 24 MR. They usually come upstairs 25 and change it on their own. EFTA00116092 34 1 MR. So they actually post it 2 on the -- 3 MR. Yes. 4 MR. -- board themselves? 5 MR. Yes. 6 MR. Does everybody that works 7 in the SHU know what the hot list is? 8 MR. Yes. 9 MR. Z: Do you believe 10 MR. It's part of our training. 11 MR. Z: As a -. 12 MR. Not just the SHU training, 13 but that's like when you start working here, 14 everybody should know that that's - when 15 Psychology Department comes to see you, they 16 make you - or they tell you to be aware of the 17 hot list. 18 MR. Okay. That's a good 19 point. On your annual training that you take 20 at the MCC, would that hot list information be 21 provided during that training? 22 MR. Yes, it should. 23 MR. What about the training 24 that we talked about previously when we talked 25 - EFTA00116093 35 1 MR. The SHU training? 2 MR. Yes. 3 MR. That definitely is. 4 MR. And in the annual? 5 MR. Yes. 6 MR. So, in the annual, the 7 training that you said, you know, we talked 8 about of, they're not in the SHU training, they 9 might not have gotten it, that same information 10 would have been passed along during the annual 11 training? 12 MR. Yes. 13 MR. And that's with 14 Psychology letting people know that people -. 15 MR. Psychology does their part 16 on the training in their class time and they 17 should have or they should because I think 18 that's what they always do. Psychology - any 19 training, everybody takes it and you go over 20 everything pretty much from when you first 21 start -- 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. -- on what to do as an 24 officer. 25 MR. So, point being, if EFTA00116094 36 1 people come off of suicide watch and are placed 2 in somewhere like the SHU, during annual 3 training, they tell everybody that takes that 4 training that they need to. 5 MR. Make sure you go over the 6 hot list and deal with who is on it -- 7 MR. And who was your 8 MR. - and if you feel somebody 9 should be on it, just pass it down to 10 Psychology. 11 MR. To make sure those people 12 have cell mates? 13 MR. orrect. 14 MR. Okay. And is that right, 15 if you're on the hot list, unless you have some 16 kind of requirement next to you that you can't 17 be housed with a bunkie, you're supposed to 18 housed with a cell mate? 19 MR. 20 MR. es, yes. Okay. And is that kind 21 of the purpose of it, to make sure that you're 22 knowing that they're not only suicidal but 23 they're also required to have a cell mate? 24 MR Correct. 25 MR : Okay. EFTA00116095 37 1 MR. In comparison to the OIC 2 desk, where would that hot list be? Like if 3 you're looking at the desk right now, where -. 4 MR. So, if I'm sitting on the 5 desk, it should be about not even 10 feet away 6 from me on the next phone. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : And do the other COs that 9 worked in the SHU know that everyone on the hot 10 list was required to have a cell mate? 11 MR. They should. 12 MR. : They should, okay. 13 MR. There's a lot of "shoulds" 14 in this building. 15 MR. Who replaced you in the 16 SHU on August 9, 2019? Do you remember? And 17 here's the -. 18 MR. It should have been Officer 19 and Officer 20 MR. MATULEWICZ: Okay. Do you need to 21 refer to this at all or you just know that from 22 memory? 23 MR. I think I'm right. 24 MR. And I think you're right 25 as well, but I just want to make sure that -. EFTA00116096 38 1 MR. Memory is so far so good, 2 yes. 3 MR. So you're looking at the 4 daily assigned roster. 5 MRIIIIIIIIII: Yeah, it's and 6 7 MR. Anyone else? 8 MR. No, I only saw those two. 9 MR. Was there Joiner also? 10 Did he replace you? 11 MR. So I left that 2:00. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. I knew was coming 14 because that's usually my relief and was 15 a 2:00 to 10:00 officer. 16 MR. Okay. And where did 17 fit in on this? Do you know? 18 MR. He was probably doing 19 just coming in. 20 MR. kay. So we have a memo. 21 Is this - do you - this memo, it says it's from 22 you and it's dated August 12, 2019. Is this - 23 do you recognize that memo? 24 MR No, that's me. 25 MR Okay. And did you create EFTA00116097 39 1 that memo? 2 MR. Yes, I did. 3 MR. All right. Great. So 4 what it says is, it says it's to the Warden. 5 How do you pronounce the Warden's last 6 MR. 7 MR. It says, "On 8 Friday, August 9, 2019 at approximately 1:50 9 p.m., I, SOS passed on to oncoming 10 staff member Officer and present shift 11 staff SOS and Officer that inmate 12 Reyes, number 85993-054, was going WAS and 13 possibly may not return. Also that inmate 14 Epstein will be needing a cell mate upon 15 arrival from his attorney visit." What does 16 WAS mean? 17 MR. With all belongings. 18 MR. : Okay. And is that -. 19 MR. That's when you leave the 20 institution. 21 MR Okay. Great. And do you 22 recall actually passing that information on to 23 24 MR. I - 25 probably did speak to them, but in -. EFTA00116098 40 1 MR. Okay. So I guess I 2 should ask, the way that I interpreted this was 3 that you told-but those other people were 4 present in the SHU. Did you have a 5 conversation then, you believe, with both 6 and 7 MR. EMI: I had a conversation with 8 because he relieved me at 2 o'clock. 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. And I told him, "Make sure 11 you pass it down to - but I don't - I know I 12 spoke t. because I was still town driver 13 and I saw him outside, but , I don't 14 remember seeing him. 15 MR Okay. What do you 16 remember - what specifically do you recall 17 saying to 18 MR. Like, "Reyes is going, he's 19 leaving, so make sure Epstein gets a bunkie." 20 MR. : And what do you remember 21 specifically telling to 22 MR. Same thing. "Hey, you 23 know, I think Reyes is going to be gone, 24 Epstein needs a bunkie." "All right. 25 MR. Okay. And again, who is EFTA00116099 41 1 inmate Efrain Reyes? 2 MR. That was Epstein's bunkie. 3 MR. Up until August 9th it 4 sounds like? 5 MR. orrect. 6 MR. Okay. And do you know 7 how he was selected to be Epstein's cell mate? 8 MR. Through, again, Psychology 9 recommends, "Oh, they're about the same age. 10 They both are pretty much have -" - not similar 11 charges, but, "This guy is an older man. This 12 guy has a cane. There's not going to be any 13 problems, we should put them in together." 14 MR. Are you aware of anything 15 like the Captain and the Warden and even the 16 Regional Director going through and vetting 17 Epstein's cell mates or are you unaware of 18 that? 19 MR o. 20 MR All right. So, you're 21 understanding was that Psychology made that 22 determination? 23 MR Correct. 24 MR Okay. When did you 25 become aware that inmate Efrain Reyes was EFTA00116100 42 1 likely to be removed from the MCC on August 9, 2 2019? 3 MR. When I walked both of them 4 to the door. 5 MR. And what time would that 6 have been? 7 MR. I would say - because R&D 8 usually starts calling people down around 9 9 o'clock, 9:00, 9:30, and that's pretty much 10 around the same time that Epstein is walking to 11 go to his legal visit. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. I won't - well, it's not me 14 alone with the two of them, but we walked 15 towards the door and I told him he needed - he 16 was going to get a bunkie. 17 18 both together? 19 MR 20 MR 21 22 23 24 25 Reyes wasn't coming back or likely -. So were Reyes and Epstein orrect. And you're the one who was - one of you that was escorting them? MR. Yes. MR. And at that point, at 9:00 a.m. on August 9th, you did know that EFTA00116101 43 1 MR. I knew he was going 2 downstairs. So, WAB means with all belongings. 3 You go to R&D, you're supposed to leave within 4 probably an hour and not come back, but there 5 has been times that they go downstairs with all 6 their stuff and they come right back upstairs. 7 Whether it's to SHU or to a unit. 8 MR Okay. 9 MR So -. 10 MR So, are you confident 11 that Reyes was actually WAB at 9:00 a.m.? 12 MR. No, I know I was walking 13 him downstairs to leave the building at that 14 time. 15 MR. Was he with all 16 belongings at that time? 17 MR. Yes. 18 MR. So he -- 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. -- already - he did have 21 his belongings? 22 MR. He did have his belongings. 23 He was ready to go. But again, it's not always 24 guaranteed that once we're taking downstairs, 25 even though they call us and tell us, "Oh, this EFTA00116102 44 1 guy is going WAB," they just leave. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. There's been a lot of times 4 that we take them downstairs, two, three hours 5 later, something happened, "You know what? Go 6 right back upstairs, you leave tomorrow or the 7 next day." 8 MR. Okay. And does R&D stand 9 for Receiving and Discharging? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. Okay. What floor is that 12 on? 13 MR. hat's on the 3rd floor. 14 MR. Okay. Do you get a - let 15 me go through this. So, I got a Lieutenant log 16 and a daily log. So let me find those. So 17 here's the - this top report, the daily 18 activity report is from August 10, 2019 and 19 behind it, it has the Lieutenant's log from 20 Friday, August 9, 2019. So that's what I'm 21 going to refer you to and I'm going to refer 22 you specifically to where it says, "8:00 a.m.," 23 on down. It says, "According to the 24 Lieutenant's log and the daily log," so this is 25 the daily log. I think he's on the third page. EFTA00116103 45 1 It says, "Reyes was pre-removed from the SHU at 2 8:38 a.m." What does that mean? 3 MR. That's just when they put 4 him on the system that he gets downstairs. 5 MR. Does it have anything to 6 do with WAB or that he's likely not going to 7 come back? 8 MR. 9 means he left. 10 MR. That just means he left? 11 MR. es, that means he's left. 12 MR. But does that mean, like, 13 he's going to court and he's likely not going 14 to come back or it just means he left? Does it 15 have anything to do with the fact that not only 16 did he leave the building, but he's likely not 17 going to return? 18 MR. Well, that he left the 19 building and most likely he's not going to 20 return. Well, that pretty much 21 MR. Okay. And is there a 22 difference? Like what would it say if he just 23 left for a regular court date and he was going 24 to return, (Indiscernible *00:30:47)? 25 MR. Well, it would say, EFTA00116104 46 1 "Court." 2 MR. Just, "Court?" 3 MR. If he was going to court, 4 it would say, "Court." 5 MR.-: It wouldn't say, "Pre- 6 remove?" 7 MR. No, it would just say, 8 "Court." 9 MR. So is, "Pre-remove," and, 10 "WAB," somewhat the same thing? 11 MR. 12 MR. orrect. Okay. So does that mean 13 that - so I've been told that there's some kind 14 of a court list that comes out either on like 15 late August 8, 2019 or early August 9, 2019 16 would have said something with WAB next to his 17 name. 18 MR. Yes. 19 MR. : What is that called? 20 MR. That's the court list that 21 we get. So when I walk in or any officer walks 22 into the unit, they would have a court list. 23 Court list would have - I'll say, "Court," or, 24 "WAB." 25 MR. All right. And I have EFTA00116105 47 1 not seen that document. Do you recall if that 2 actually said, "WAB?" 3 MR. Not that, I cannot 4 remember. 5 MR. If it - looking at the 6 Lieutenant's log as well as this daily log, the 7 fact that said, "Pre-remove," does that mean it 8 likely said, "WAB?" 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. Because you said if it 13 said just, "Court," or, "WAB," if it said, 14 "Court," it would say, "Court," next to his 15 name 16 MR. Right. 17 MR. on this. 18 MR. Right. So, we get 19 something like this, just like this one. 20 MR. So on the daily log, 21 right? 22 MR. On the daily log, but it 23 would be like a court roster. Name, where 24 they're housed in and next to it, it would say, 25 "Court, WAB, transfer," or something like that. EFTA00116106 48 1 MR. Okay. So, but based upon 2 the fact that this says, "Pre-remove," on it. 3 Do you believe that the court list said, "WAB?" 4 MR Yes. 5 MR Okay. 6 MR Yes. That's the only 7 reason we would take them down. 8 MR. Right. 9 MR. Unless he got - he made 10 bail and all of a sudden, "Hey, we got an early 11 release." 12 MR. Okay. So when you say 13 it's the only reason you would take them down, 14 wouldn't you take them down also if he was just 15 going to court? 16 MR. orrect. 17 MR. Okay. But, I guess what 18 I'm saying is, the difference between court and 19 WAB. It's the same 20 MR 21 list and I have a court inmate and a WAB 22 inmate, they would both go to R&D and if it's 23 the same time, they would go down at the same 24 time. Then after that is where it would still 25 say the same thing. Well, one would still say, It's - well, if I have a EFTA00116107 49 1 "WAB," and the other one still would, I mean, 2 would say, "Court." Only difference is one 3 would most likely not come back. 4 MR. Okay. What about the 5 difference between what they're bringing with 6 them? Would they both be bringing all their 7 belongings? 8 MR. o, they would not. 9 MR. So a person with court 10 wouldn't have something like Reyes did. 11 MR. Correct. 12 MR. So Reyes likely had his 13 bag. 14 MR. His bag with all his items 15 and the person going out to court would most 16 likely just have a folder or legal 17 documentations that he's taking with him. 18 MR. All right. So that's 19 another reason why you believe that that 20 document would have said, "WAB?" 21 MR. Correct. 22 MR. Okay. Thank you. I'm 23 going to just so we can start getting these 24 things away from you. Do you mind just sign 25 and dating. This is the daily log. And EFTA00116108 50 1 exactly, do you know what the daily log is? 2 This one that you're initialing and dating 3 right now -- 4 MR. Well -- 5 MR. -- for August 9, 2019? 6 MR. -- this we would print out 7 just so we could know how to update the 8 Lieutenant's log 9 MR. Okay. So -. 10 MR. -- now. 11 MR. So this daily log is used 12 to update the Lieutenant's log? 13 MR. Correct. 14 MR. All right. So would have 15 this (Indiscernible *00:33:56) in daily log or 16 if we were just reviewing, it's the last page 17 which is - although it does say, "Page 1 of 18 or over here, it's this page, I'm going to 19 circle this page, 3 of 3 and I'm going to star 20 next to Reyes's name. Would this have been 21 filled for - would this have been used to fill 22 out this daily log -- 23 MR. es. 24 MR. -- after the fact? So at 25 8:38, would the Lieutenant's log have been EFTA00116109 51 1 filled out? I'm going to star next to this. 2 Or would it have been at this time where it 3 says, you know, "9:30 -- 4 MR. 9:30? 5 MR. -- at night," would have 6 been filled out? 7 MR. : No, it would have been 8 filled out according to the times that are on 9 the log. 10 MR Okay. So, the 11 Lieutenant's log is actually typically filled 12 out after these things happen? 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. Later in the day. 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. Not as they transpire. 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. Okay. Good to know. 19 MR. Well, it depends on who the 20 Lieutenant is. 21 Right. Okay. 22 Sometimes they'll do it 23 throughout the day so they're not stuck doing 24 all these changes or putting all the 25 information on the Lieutenant's log, they'll EFTA00116110 52 1 just go by the time. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. Like, "Oh, it's 8:30, five 4 guys left, I'm going to put it in the 5 Lieutenant's log." 6 MR. All right. 7 MR. "Five guys left." 8 MR. Is there any kind of a 9 requirement that Lieutenants need to fill out 10 the Lieutenant's log as things transpire or 11 does that not matter? 12 MR. 13 by the closing of the day, everything is up to 14 date -- 15 MR. Okay. 16 MR. and the numbers are 17 accurate 18 MR. Doesn't matter, so long as So, prior to leaving your 19 shift it's supposed to be updated? 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. All right. So if 22 you can just 23 MR. _I have the Lieutenant, yes. 24 MR. So if you don't mind 25 initialing and dating both of those. EFTA00116111 53 1 MR. While you're doing that, I 2 just had a question. You said that Reyes had 3 his belongings. What exactly did he have in 4 his hands? 5 MR. Think it was a bag with a 6 couple of commissary items, nothing -. 7 MR. Like a plastic bag or -. 8 MR. A plastic bag. We don't 9 give them anything else to take. 10 MR. And you also mentioned, "We," 11 who is we when you were bringing him down? 12 MR. Oh, myself and the Internal 13 Officer, which - usually if it's two inmates, 14 it has to be at two or three staff members 15 bringing them down. 16 MR. You wouldn't happen to, by 17 off that list, know who that is? 18 MR. MEI Internal was 19 (Phonetic Sp. *00:36:01) think it was 20 (Phonetic Sp. *00:36:05), it was probably him. 21 Sign and -. 22 MR. Yeah, do you mind just 23 that's your memo and wouldn't mind just 24 initialing and dating. Thank you, sir. All 25 right, so and just to sum all that up by what EFTA00116112 54 1 you just saw and by your understanding, you 2 thought Reyes was unlikely to return to the 3 MCC. 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. Okay. And did you 6 receive any kind of call or any other 7 notification on August 19, 2019 saying that 8 Reyes was not returning to the MCC? 9 MR. I don't remember that one. 10 MR. Okay. So, when would or 11 would a notification have been made informing 12 the SHU or the MCC in general, that Reyes was 13 in fact not coming back? How does that process 14 work? 15 MR. So, if he's going WAB, we 16 already assume that he's not going to be coming 17 back and the way we confirm it is right before 18 the count, "Hey, is he coming back R&D?" "No, 19 he already left, he's gone." 20 MR. And what count is that? 21 MR. The 4:00 p.m. count. 22 MR. All right. So at 4:00 23 p.m., someone from the SHU should have 24 contacted, you said R&D? 25 MR. Yes. EFTA00116113 55 1 MR. And said, "Is he coming 2 back?" 3 MR. orrect. 4 MR. All right. Is that 5 standard operating procedure? 6 MR No, it's just pretty much 7 us confirming that he's not coming back or 8 sometimes they give us a call, "Hey, this guy 9 is not coming back." 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. But we already assume that 12 he's not coming back because he's going WAB. 13 MR. Okay. So do you know if 14 any notification was ever made to the SHU 15 saying that he was not in fact coming back? 16 MR. I don't remember. 17 MR. No? And there's no 18 standard operating procedure on that. 19 MR. No. 20 MR. Do you believe that there 21 should be? 22 MR. 111111'1: I mean, we should go off 23 the roster, but R&D should always, "Hey, this 24 guy is not coming back," think a courtesy call 25 EFTA00116114 56 1 MR. Okay. 2 MR. -- "This guy is not coming 3 back." 4 MR. And how is R&D made aware 5 that an inmate is not coming back? 6 MR. Once they leave here. So 7 they all go downstairs with (Indiscernible 8 *00:38:15). 9 MR. No, no, no. So would it 10 be when the other court people, inmates return 11 or would it be prior to that? So, yes, you 12 said, he's likely not coming back at 13 approximately 8:38 when you bring him down. He 14 leaves, it's kind of assumed that he's not 15 coming back. We're trying to figure out, when 16 is it known he's definitely not coming back. 17 Is that when the other inmates that went to 18 court are returned to the MCC or they return at 19 different times or how does that work? 20 MR. : Well, the inmates, they 21 don't all return together. They return 22 different times. 23 MR. Z: Okay. 24 MR. But, that's actually a good 25 question. I want to find that out too. I EFTA00116115 57 1 don't know if they're going to - they just 2 locked it. 3 MR. SIM Thank you for locking us 4 in. 5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, sorry. 6 MR. Thank you. Okay, so 7 you're not exactly sure. 8 MR. I'm not sure how they're 9 like notified or how do they know this guy is 10 not coming back or, excuse me, this guy is not 11 coming back, this guy had got time served or 12 I'm not sure how they know that. 13 MR. Okay. Do you know 14 anything about possibly the Marshals providing 15 some kind of a court list or anything like that 16 or is this a question for R&D? 17 MR. It's a question for R&D. 18 MR. : Okay. But as far as you 19 know, either R&D would call the SHU, making the 20 notification, and if they didn't do that by the 21 4:00 p.m. count -- 22 MR. Yeah. 23 MR. -- the SHU should be 24 contacting R&D? 25 MR. Yes, to make sure he's not EFTA00116116 58 1 coming back or to make sure that he might be 2 downstairs and we've got to pick him up. 3 MR. : And is -. 4 MR. But if he returns, R&D 5 calls us. Anybody from SHU leaves, once they 6 return from wherever they went, "You've got a 7 pick up on three." 8 MR. Okay. Now as far as that 9 goes, so just walk me through like, it just 10 seems so like a non-definite, like you know 11 what I mean? You assume that he's gone. Would 12 the people that are working in the SHU at 4:00 13 even know to call R&D to find out where Reyes 14 is? 15 MR Uh-huh. 16 MR : They would? And how 17 would they know that? 18 MR. To verify the count. 19 MR. Okay. 20 MR. We count every day, so. 21 MR. So would Reyes remain on 22 the count at that point? 23 MR. If he's not returning? 24 MR. So in this case, with the 25 pre-remove, does that mean that he was removed EFTA00116117 59 1 from the count? 2 MR. Correct. 3 MR. : So, that's - so he's 4 already removed from the SHU count. How would 5 the people that are working in the SHU know to 6 check on him if he's been removed from the 7 count? 8 MR. The court list stays on top 9 of the desk, usually we have a morning court 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. -- and afternoon court. 12 MR. : So anybody that's on the 13 court list, you need to - that's how people 14 know every day, they call and say, "What 15 happened to these people at court?" 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. All right. And is that 18 like at a certain time that a person calls? 19 MR. Usually 3:00, 3 o'clock, no 20 later than 3:30 because of the count. 21 MR. And on August 9th, by 22 knowing the people you said that were in there 23 and looking at this daily assignment roster, 24 are you able to determine if there's one person 25 that should have called or was their EFTA00116118 60 1 responsibility or is it -. 2 MR. Well, ■ and would 3 have called. 4 MR. : So one of those two? 5 MR. Yeah, one of those would 6 have called. 7 MR. But not 8 MR. was pretty new and 9 so was 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. Pretty new officers, so. 12 MR. But every day that's 13 done? 14 MR. If they don't come back, 15 then we assume they're not coming back and if 16 they do come back, R&D usually tells us, "Come 17 pick up on three." 18 MR. : Okay. So the way that 19 that was answered, it sounds like you don't 20 always call based on the court list, you just 21 assume they did - if they didn't show up and RD 22 didn't call you, you 23 MR. Then, we're like, "Oh, he's 24 not coming back." 25 MR. All right. So then those EFTA00116119 61 1 two may not have called then, they just would 2 have assumed he was gone? 3 MR. : I mean, Officer got 4 good enough time in that I think he would have 5 called. 6 MR. : And would you always call 7 8 MR. I think he would have 9 called, but -. 10 MR. on those dates that 11 you worked in the SHU at that 4:00, you know, 12 around 4:00 p.m. time, would you have always 13 called? 14 MR. Myself? Yes. I usually 15 call like around 3 o'clock -- 16 MR. And is that 17 MR. - just in case I really 18 dirty, I'll go home early, so. 19 MR. Now is that like also 20 like a standard operating procedure or is that 21 just based upon whatever the people that are 22 working there want to do? 23 MR. That's whatever people 24 working there. 25 MR. : Okay. So is there any EFTA00116120 62 1 training on that that you should call at a 2 certain time? 3 MR. No. 4 MR. No? 5 MR. No. 6 MR. So that's just like 7 basically good, I guess, logistics and good -- 8 MR. Yes. 9 MR. record keeping. Were 10 you ever instructed on what action should be 11 taken if Reyes, who was assigned to Epstein as 12 a cell mate, was removed from the institution? 13 MR. If anybody, not only 14 Epstein, loses a bunkie, and he was already on 15 suicide watch, then that's pretty much our 16 training. If he returned from suicide watch, 17 he needs a bunkie. If he has a bunkie and the 18 bunkie leaves, we get him another one. 19 MR. n Okay. Okay, so in this 20 case then, it was Reyes was likely to have been 21 removed from the institution. What actions 22 should have been taken to replace Reyes and 23 when should have they been taken? MR' 24 Well, as soon as it was 25 verified or confirmed that he left the EFTA00116121 63 1 building, and Epstein was coming up from his 2 attorney visit, which was probably around 8:00 3 because that's the last, like the last call on 4 attorney conference, last legal visit has to be 5 out of the legal department by 8 o'clock. So, 6 as soon as we find out that - if Reyes wasn't 7 there for the 4 o'clock count, it should have 8 been, "Okay, let's find Epstein another bunkie 9 so by the time he comes upstairs, he has one 10 already." 11 MR. Okay. So based upon your 12 conversations with at least and you 13 believe as well as should have they at 14 the 4:00 p.m. count started making some 15 notifications or started replacing Reyes? 16 MR. Oh, definitely. 17 Definitely. 18 MR. So was it their two 19 their - do you believe it was their, then, 20 responsibility to replace Reyes? 21 MR. I think it was everybody's 22 responsibility. They should have notified 23 somebody. 24 MR. Okay. Did you have any 25 communica- let me just go in order so I don't EFTA00116122 64 1 get - so, let me just make sure I understand. 2 So at 4:00 p.m., they should have been making 3 some notifications or at least requesting 4 information on Reyes's location, correct? 5 MR. 1 Correct. 6 MR. By 8:00 p.m., when 7 Epstein returned from attorney conference, 8 you're saying at least by that time, that's 9 when a new cell mate should have been assigned 10 or -. 11 MR orrect. 12 MR Okay. And who was 13 responsible for assigning Epstein with a new 14 cell mate? 15 MR. So, anyone in SHU could do 16 it. Just got to make sure he doesn't have any 17 separations from another inmate. But, Epstein, 18 when he came to the building was a big deal to 19 everybody, so everybody wants to be involved. 20 So I think they should just notify whoever it 21 was, the Lieutenant, and let the Lieutenant ask 22 around or speak to Psychology who you recommend 23 to be his bunkie. 24 MR. Okay. And so, being that 25 Epstein was a big deal and people wanted to be EFTA00116123 65 1 involved, when should that notification had 2 been made? 3 MR. As soon as they found out 4 he wasn't coming back. 5 MR So once it was verified 6 and so-. 7 MR. That he's not coming back, 8 yes. 9 MR. So at approximately 4:00 10 p.m.? 11 MR. 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. Okay. After Reyes left 13 for court, should you have begun a process for 14 an inmate or you or whoever else was working in 15 the SHU, should you began that process for a 16 new selected inmate for Epstein? 17 MR. Well, again, I assumed he 18 was not coming back, I wasn't sure he wasn't 19 coming back. 20 MR. Okay. So -. 21 MR. And by the time I left, he 22 still had another - he still had about an hour 23 and a half to come back if he was coming back. 24 MR. Okay. So, by the time 25 you left, there was still a possibility that EFTA00116124 66 1 MR. That he could come back. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. Yes. 4 MR. Did you make any 5 notifications to anyone aside from Illilland 6 that Reyes was Epstein's cell mate and 7 he was likely not coming back? 8 MR don't remember that. 9 MR Do you remember if you, 10 you know, communicated with any of the 11 Lieutenants? 12 MR. I don't even remember who - 13 which Lieutenant was on. 14 MR. You got the daily roster. 15 MR. But -. 16 MR. Think it was and 17- 18 MR. I actually - I say I know I 19 remember Lieutenant So I think I - see, 20 I don't want to say I did tell somebody, but I 21 was always kind of anal working the SHU, so I 22 probably said, "Look, he might not be coming 23 back," and when Reyes left, he leave through 24 the 3rd floor which everybody in the 25 Lieutenant's office sees him and R&D sees him EFTA00116125 67 1 and at the same time, I told Epstein, "You're 2 getting a bunkie," he's like, "No, I'm good." 3 And Reyes was like, "No, he's going to make 4 sure you get a bunkie." Because -. 5 MR. Can you repeat that last 6 thing? What's this? 7 MR. So, when I walked them 8 towards the door, said, "Oh, Reyes, you might 9 be leaving today." "Yeah, G. and you're going 10 to get a bunkie." Epstein is like, "No, I'm 11 good." Said, "No, you're going to get a 12 bunkie," and Reyes is like, "Yeah," you know, 13 "He does this by the book, you're going to get 14 a bunkie later if I leave or if I don't come 15 back." 16 MR. I got you. So the way 17 you answered the question before, it sounded 18 like you may have told or you 19 just don't specifically recall? 20 MR. I do not recall. 21 MR. Like -. 22 MR. Again, we brought them 23 down, so 24 MR. Okay. No, no, no, I'm 25 talking about like, - or let me - I'll just go EFTA00116126 68 1 in order. Do you remember at 9:00 a.m. who 2 would have been the Activities and Operations 3 Lieutenant? 4 MR. Well, Operations comes in 5 at 6 o'clock in the morning. 6 MR. Okay. And who on this 7 date would have been that person? 8 MR. Lieutenant and 9 came in at 4 o'clock. 10 MR. So III'. was Activities 11 though, right? 12 MR. Correct. At 6:00 and then 13 Lieutenant was at 8:00. 14 MR. Okay. So at 6:00 a.m., 15 would have been in? 16 MR. Yes, 6:00 to 2:00 and 17 Lieutenant 8:00 to 4:00. 18 MR. : Okay. So at that 9 19 o'clock time when you're bringing them down, 20 would you 21 MR. They both should have been 22 there. 23 MR. -- would have you been in 24 any interactions with Lieutenants at that 25 point? EFTA00116127 69 1 MR. Yes, because they usually 2 come upstairs to feed. 3 MR. Okay. And do you 4 remember if specifically if specifically if you 5 can place yourself back in that day, I know 6 it's a long time ago, but being that that was 7 the day before Epstein died, can you remember 8 at all thinking about any conversations you had 9 with them? 10 MR. I remember seeing both of 11 them. 12 MR. : Both - you remember 13 MR. Both - both -- 14 MR. seeing both 15 MR. -- Lieutenant and 16 Lieutenant that day, but (Indiscernible 17 *00:49:03) when - I'm sure, but I'm not a 18 hundred percent positive that I did tell him -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. -- "Hey," specifically, 21 "Reyes might be leaving, you got to get Epstein 22 a bunkie." 23 MR. : So you believe it's more 24 likely than not that you mentioned it to the 25 Lieutenants. EFTA00116128 70 1 MR. Correct. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. There you go. 4 MR. : But you just can't 5 specifically recall. 6 MR. Yes. 7 MR. Okay. And do you believe 8 it was more likely or not that you told one of 9 those Lieutenants over another? 10 MR. I talked to both of them 11 and I think I probably just told Lieutenant 12 and then he passed it down or vice versa. 13 MR. Okay. And did you have 14 more of a friendly relationship with one or the 15 other? 16 MR No, just -- 17 MR No? 18 MR -- even both of them. 19 MR And do you remember 20 having any conversations with R&D on August 21 9th? 22 MR. No. 23 MR. No? So when you would 24 drop the inmates off, was there any kind of 25 conversations or EFTA00116129 71 1 MR. 2 good?" "Yeah, okay." 3 MR. Okay. 4 MR. ah. Go right back 5 upstairs. 6 MR. And do you know when it 7 was known that Reyes wasn't returning to the 8 MCC? 9 MR. o. 10 MR. Even after the fact? 11 Like after August 9th, you never learned that? 12 MR. No, I never -. 13 MR. There wasn't any kind of 14 like little internal investigation trying to 15 figure out what that was all about? 16 MR. No. I -. 17 MR. But under normal 18 circumstances, you're saying, either R&D would 19 call and let that be known or at the 4:00 p.m. 20 count, the SHU staff should have called down to 21 find out -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. -- based upon the court 24 list -- 25 MR. Usually -- Yeah, "What's up? You guys EFTA00116130 72 1 MR. -- that was in front of 2 them? 3 MR. -- we do just to make sure 4 this guy is not coming back or R&D would tell 5 us. 6 MR. Okay. And you're saying 7 that that's normal but certainly by 8:00 p.m. 8 when Epstein came back from attorney client, 9 his attorney visit, they should have known? 10 MR. Correct. 11 MR. Okay. And who - can you, 12 by referring to this roster, can you tell me 13 who was working at 8:00 p.m.? 14 MR. 8:00 p.m., the people that 15 were working were and 16 MR. Z: Was Noel also? 17 MR. And - well, the evening 18 watch, Noel, and 19 MR. So at 8:00 p.m., were all 20 those people on? 21 MR. No. because he 22 leaves at 10:00, Noel, she does 4:00 to 12:00, 23 4:00 to 12:00. 24 MR. Okay. And do you believe 25 all of those people would have known - those EFTA00116131 73 1 three people that you just listed, would have 2 they known that Epstein was required to have a 3 cell mate? 4 MR. Well, the one that most 5 likely should have known was because he's 6 worked SHU before. Noel worked SHU once in a 7 while and he wasn't even in the SHU 8 department. 9 MR. : Okay. So certainly 10 would have known and Noel should have? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. ould go either 13 way? 14 MR. Either way. 15 MR. Okay. And what action 16 should have they taken? Once they bring 17 Epstein back to the cell, they notice they're 18 putting Epstein - would they know when they 19 brought Epstein back to his cell that Epstein 20 was alone in that cell? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. : And how would they know 23 that? 24 MR. Well, first we have name 25 tags on the door. Usually when the inmate EFTA00116132 74 1 leaves, we remove the name tag. And of course 2 -- 3 MR. Can you silence that? 4 MR. -- the sheets should not 5 have been on the bed. 6 MR. So Reyes's sheets should 7 have been removed? 8 MR. Correct. 9 MR. Do you know if they were? 10 MR. I don't remember. 11 MR. And what time should 12 those sheets be removed? 13 MR. Well, he's not coming back, 14 let's get them. 15 MR. So sometime between 4:00 16 p.m. and -. 17 MR. And 8 o'clock. 18 MR. : Okay. And then, is that 19 - is it - are they ever removed when someone is 20 WAB? 21 MR. Yes. When, so, again, WAB, 22 with all belongings, everything should come out 23 with you when you're WAB. 24 MR. So do those linens then 25 (Indiscernible *00:53:10)? EFTA00116133 75 1 MR. Yes. 2 MR. Do you know if they did 3 for Reyes that day? 4 MR. No, I don't remember that. 5 MR. Okay. And is that like a 6 policy thing? 7 MR. You got to return your 8 linen. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. I don't think it's in 11 policy that I know of. 12 MR. All right. So, they 13 should have been removed when Reyes left, but 14 you don't know if they were? 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. And then they certainly 17 should have been removed once it was verified 18 that Reyes wasn't coming back? 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. And that verification 21 would have been made at either 4:00 p.m. or 22 certainly by 8:00 p.m. 23 MR. Yes. 24 MR. Okay. Did you conduct 25 any counts or rounds in the SHU during your EFTA00116134 76 1 shift on August 9th? 2 MR. No. 3 MR. Rounds? 4 MR. Well, rounds, yes. Not 5 counts. 6 MR. Okay. So, sorry, I said 7 counts or rounds. 8 MR. Oh. 9 MR. So you did conduct rounds 10 though? 11 MR. Yes. And Friday is a 12 shower day so we're - meaning, we got to shower 13 everybody in SHU, so at one point or another, 14 everybody that worked in SHU before 4 o'clock 15 in the afternoon, went in and out the tiers at 16 least a good 40 times. 17 MR. Okay. What time are 18 inmates showered? 19 MR. We start at 6:00. 20 MR. Okay. Was Epstein 21 showered on that date then? 22 MR. Yes he was because he goes 23 to his attorney visit. 24 MR. And he gets showered 25 prior to going? EFTA00116135 77 1 MR. Correct. 2 MR. Okay. All right, these 3 are the - you said you weren't involved in any 4 counts, so we'll give you the count sheet. 5 These are the round sheets from August 9, 2019. 6 I can't make out this stuff. Does any of that 7 - your signatures or initials? 8 MR. The RCG right in the 9 middle. 10 MR. You're RCG? Okay. 11 MR. Correct. Middle. 12 MR. All right. And then 13 all right, so you were involved in those rounds 14 that are listed on there. Why do COs conduct 15 counts and rounds? 16 MR. To make sure the inmates 17 are - why they conduct rounds? 18 MR. Sure, we'll do each. Why 19 do COs conduct rounds? 20 MR. To make sure everybody is 21 breathing 22 MR. And why -. 23 MR. - and make sure everybody 24 is still there. 25 MR. And why do they conduct EFTA00116136 78 1 counts? 2 MR. To count and make sure all 3 the bodies are there. 4 MR. Okay. Do all the COs who 5 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 6 and report counts and rounds? 7 MR. Yes. If they got the ART 8 training, which is the initial training when 9 you start or the new training, we go over the 10 count time and we go over rounds. And when we 11 do the SHU training, we also go over the 12 rounds. 13 MR. So in that annual 14 refresher training, do they go over SHU counts 15 and rounds as well or just general 16 MR. Well -- 17 MR. : -- institution? 18 MR. -- general institution 19 counts. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. Now the rounds in the units 22 are different than the SHU rounds, but it is 23 part of the annual training because there's a 24 section that says, "SHU." 25 MR. Okay. So during that EFTA00116137 79 1 section that's title, "SHU," for the annual 2 refresher training, they actually talk about 3 conducting counts and rounds? 4 MR. 5 MR. orrect. Okay. And I'm assuming 6 everybody that worked that day would have at 7 least taken the annual refresher training. 8 MR. Yes. 9 MR. Do all COs who work in 10 the SHU know how to properly document counts 11 and rounds? 12 MR. Yes. 13 MR. And how do they know how 14 to document? 15 MR. 16 MR. Do they - so during that ell, through the training. 17 annual refresher training and entry training 18 they teach you how to document as well? 19 MR. Well, we just log in. 20 Whenever you do a round, you got to log it in, 21 so that's kind of the way they tell us. 22 MR. And when you say, "Log it 23 in," how do you log it in? 24 MR. GRIJALVA: Well, you could log in your 25 rounds on TRUSCOPE or you could in the SHU, EFTA00116138 80 1 which the rounds sheets we still have, that's 2 the actual paper you write it in. 3 MR. Do they - have they done 4 both? Do you not only have this paper that I 5 just showed you there with the rounds, do they 6 also have - do you also have to go into 7 TRUSCOPE and log them in manually as well? 8 MR. Yes. But not the every 30 9 minute rounds. Like, in the unit, you document 10 your rounds. In SHU, you have to do it on the 11 paper, you don't have to write on TRUSCOPE, "I 12 did a round 30 minutes, I did a round within 40 13 minutes, I did a round in 30 minutes." You 14 don't have to write it over and over and over 15 on TRUSCOPE. 16 MR. When do you have to do it 17 in TRUSCOPE? 18 MR. Just throughout your shift 19 that you conducted rounds. 20 MR. So it's not every 30 21 minutes but at some point you've got to go in? 22 MR. Yes. 23 MR. And do you have to 24 document, like within TRUSCOPE that you did it 25 every 30 minutes or just that it - how does EFTA00116139 81 1 that -. 2 MR. That they were done. 3 MR. That they were done. 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. So it's not like it's 6 where every 30 minutes you have to see what 7 time it is -. 8 MR. Correct. 9 MR. Okay. Is it ever 10 acceptable for a CO to document a count or a 11 round prior to conducting the count or a round? 12 MR.IIIIIIIIIIIINo. 13 MR. What do you know about 14 COs assigned to the SHU doing this? 15 Documenting the rounds and the count slips 16 prior to ever conducting the rounds or the 17 count slips? 18 MR. The time that I'm there, it 19 was never done. 20 MR. It was never done? 21 MR. No. 22 MR. Do you know anything 23 about that? 24 MR. No. 25 MR. Even after the fact, have EFTA00116140 82 1 you heard about that? 2 MR. 3 MR. yen after the fact. Who else is responsible 4 for conducting counts and rounds inside the MC 5 SHU aside from the people that are actually 6 working in the SHU? 7 MR. Well, the SHU Lieutenant, 8 the Operations Lieutenant, they both have to 9 conduct rounds on all ranges in SHU. 10 MR. So when Opera- so there 11 was no SHU Lieutenant on August 9, 2019, 12 correct? 13 MR. Correct. Lieutenant 14 was hurt, if (Indiscernible *00:58:37) think he 15 was hurt. 16 Think he was on leave and 17 then got hurt that weekend, but yes. So he 18 wasn't there, so that would have placed the 19 responsibility on the Operations Lieutenant? 20 MR. Well, regardless, the 21 Operations Lieutenant has to do his or her 22 rounds. 23 MR. Oh, okay. So, even if 24 the SHU Lieutenant is there, the Operations 25 Lieutenant also has to conduct a round in the EFTA00116141 83 1 SHU? 2 MR. Correct. 3 MR. And is it once per shift? 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. And what does a round for 6 the Operations Lieutenant look like? What does 7 it entail? Is it just them visiting the SHU or 8 do they actually have to walk the tiers? 9 MR. They have to walk the 10 tiers. 11 MR. Z: Is that policy? 12 MR. There's a sign in book and 13 then there's these little papers on the end of 14 every range that they have to sign on the 15 bottom. 16 MR. So on your shift, it 17 appears that Lieutenant_is actually the 18 one that conducted a round, is that correct? 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. Now, by that 21 certification, mean that he actually walked the 22 tiers? 23 MR. GRIJALVA: Yes. 24 MR. Okay. So if Lieutenant 25 was the person to have walked the tiers, EFTA00116142 84 1 would have that - would that refresh your 2 memory? Would that conversation the fact that 3 Epstein's cell is now empty, would that have 4 come up? 5 MR. It depends on the time he 6 walked around. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. That just means he walked 9 in from 6:00 to 2 o'clock in the afternoon. It 10 doesn't tell - like, it's not even specific 11 that when he went up there I was there 12 MR. Okay. 13 MR. -- or any other officer 14 spoke to him. 15 MR. Would you believe that 16 Lieutenant if he's doing the rounds, 17 should have been tipped off on the fact that 18 that cell was empty? 19 MR. Yeah, depending on the time 20 that he did. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. The time that he did walk. 23 MR. Was there any action that 24 he should have taken at that point? 25 MR. Well, if - I'm guessing if EFTA00116143 85 1 he saw an empty cell, everybody is asking, you 2 know, he should have asked where he went. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. Well, went downstairs, 5 depending who he asked. 6 MR. And by this, are you able 7 to tell when Lieutenant_actually 8 conducted that round? 9 MR. No. 10 MR. You're not able to tell? 11 MR. No. 12 MR. Where is that Lieutenant 13 log? I know it's here - some - oh, no, no, no. 14 I have another one right here. 15 MR. (Indiscernible *01:00:45). 16 MR. No, no, no, it's - 17 there's Lieutenant round logs. So what is this 18 that I'm showing you? 19 MR. These are from TRUSCOPE. 20 MR. And is that how - can you 21 find where during your shift, a Lieutenant - is 22 that when Lieutenants do rounds, that's where 23 they log in and they say when they did a round? 24 MR. Correct. On TRUSCOPE. 25 MR. : Okay. Can you find EFTA00116144 86 1 during your shift who is says that their round 2 in the SHU. 3 MR. Lieutenant did a 4 round in 9-South at 11:27 and he did it on 10- 5 South at 11:28. 6 MR. Okay. And 10-South is 7 the -. 8 MR. The upper level. 9 MR. Of the SHU? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. Correct? And it's like a 12 separate unit in the SHU? 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. For the high-profile and 15 single cell inmates? 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. And where Epstein was 18 housed, that would have been in 9-South? 19 MR. Correct. 20 MR. Okay. Great. So -. 21 MR. 11:27 a.m., that's when he 22 -- 23 MR. That's when he would have 24 visited. 25 MR. -- should have did the EFTA00116145 87 1 round. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. Or more or less. 4 MR. But you don't recall 5 having a conversation with him at that time? 6 MR. No. 7 MR. No? And you're sure in 8 August of 2019 that Lieutenants at that time 9 did actually did conduct rounds of the entire 10 unit to include walking the tiers? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. Check? Okay. So if 13 Lieutenants tell us now when we're talking to 14 them, "No, no, no, no, that's the Lieutenant's 15 discretion. They can just pop in, check with 16 the staff and then leave." Is that -. 17 MR. No. You have to - by 18 policy, do a round throughout the whole 19 building and make sure you log it in. And in 20 SHU, we have the round sheets which that's part 21 of your SHU round. You can't just walk into 22 SHU, do a 360 and walk right back out. You 23 have to sign the round sheets. 24 MR. And what's your opinion 25 if Lieutenants are telling us, "No, no, no, no, EFTA00116146 88 1 no, we don't actually have to walk the tiers, 2 we can just check with the COs and go to the 3 next unit." What's your opinion of that? 4 MR. Say that's crap. 5 MR. Do you believe those 6 people know better and they know that they need 7 to actually conduct rounds? 8 MR. Every Lieutenant should 9 know that they have to do rounds in Special 10 Housing, walk around every tier and every 11 range. 12 MR. And how do they know 13 that? Is that something provided at training 14 or how do they know? 15 MR. Well, I became a Lieutenant 16 and that was pretty much, "This is what you got 17 to do. When you do rounds, that's part of your 18 SHU rounds," not just -- 19 MR. : And -. 20 MR. -- go and sign the book and 21 leave. 22 MR. And at the time we're 23 talking about, August 9, 2019, you were not 24 actually a Lieutenant yet, but you do know that 25 that was still policy at that time? EFTA00116147 89 1 MR. Correct. 2 MR. Do you know where that 3 policy is found? Is that a SHU policy or is it 4 a Psychology policy or is there -. 5 MR. I think that's a Lieutenant 6 policy. 7 MR And there's a separate 8 Lieutenant's book that shows all your policies? 9 MR. Well, we have the 10 Lieutenant's log and just like when staff does 11 their round, we have to insert it into 12 TRUSCOPE. So the Lieutenant, when they do 13 their rounds, they have to log into TRUSCOPE 14 and say they conducted rounds in Special 15 Housing. 16 MR. But do we know where that 17 policy is found? 18 MR. hat I do not know. 19 MR. Okay. Do you know if 20 it's found in the SHU policy? 21 MR. don't know that. 22 MR. You don't know? Okay, no 23 problem. So what are the OIC's 24 responsibilities when it comes to conducting 25 counts and rounds? EFTA00116148 90 1 MR. Well, when it comes to 2 conducting rounds, you got to make sure 3 everybody does a round 30 minutes, within 40 4 minutes, throughout the day and we got to make 5 sure the round sheets are filled out. We got 6 to make sure the counts - make sure that 7 there's - it's an accurate count and we got to 8 make sure the count slip is filled out the 9 right way. 10 MR. And you said that on this 11 one specifically, you said you're all the 12 MR. he 2 o'clock. 13 MR. The 2 o'clock ones? 14 MR. Uh-huh. 15 MR Okay. So that's all your 16 initials are. 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. And were those, do you 19 remember, were those rounds conducted? 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. Yes? 22 MR. I know for a fact those 23 rounds - like I said, it was shower day, so 24 usually shower days, we're in and out, in and 25 out, in and out, throughout the whole day and EFTA00116149 91 1 we don't finish showers until about 2:00, 2 sometimes 3 o'clock in the afternoon. 3 MR. Okay. So you're 4 constantly interacting with each -- 5 MR. Yes. 6 MR. each. So as far as 7 the times go though, are they like specific 8 times or do you kind of like add those later on 9 in the day? How does that work? 10 MR. Well, we usually go in, 11 sign it, if I forget, I already know that I 12 went back another 20 minutes, 30 minutes -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. -- then I'll fill it out. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. You try to make it as 17 accurate as I could when I'm there, but we're 18 all human. Sometimes I - just because I didn't 19 write it down, doesn't mean I didn't go down 20 the range. 21 MR. Yeah. 22 MR. I just forgot to write it 23 down. 24 MR. Well, what is the purpose 25 of signing a 30 minute round sheet? EFTA00116150 92 1 MR. To confirm that you did 2 your round. 3 MR. Okay. And aside from 4 when you were there and you were signing it in, 5 do you know if on August 9th specifically, if 6 the people that signed this document also 7 conducted their rounds? 8 MR. No. I would assume they 9 did 10 MR. You do? 11 MR. -- just signing it. 12 MR. Do you know anything 13 about people writing down that they did it when 14 they actually in fact did not do it? 15 MR. The only thing I know is 16 part of the times it would be off. Like, all 17 right, like I said before, I walked around but 18 I didn't write it, "Oh, shit, what time did I 19 do the round? 7:15, maybe it was actually 20 7:05," but, you know, I'll guess the time. Not 21 that I wrote it down and I didn't walk around 22 at all. 23 MR. Now, you're off at 2:00, 24 correct? 25 MR. Yes. EFTA00116151 93 1 MR. Should someone have 2 filled in the other -- 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 have -. 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 that out? 9 MR. Yes -- times? Who should We should have. Who should have filled 10 MR. should have filled 11 that out? 12 MR. Or anybody else that was 13 there. 14 MR. Okay. And do you see 15 these initials over here where it says, 16 "Signature," from 4:00 p.m. until midnight, do 17 you know who that would have been? Would have 18 been -. 19 MR. If it's a JN, it should be 20 Noel. 21 MR. : Okay. Or TN -- 22 MR. Hold on. 23 MR. • -- maybe. 24 MR. Right, (Indiscernible 25 *01:06:57). EFTA00116152 94 1 MR. I don't know if it's T or 2 a J. 3 MR. J or a -. 4 MR. It's T. 5 MR. T? 6 MR. T and so Tova Noel? 7 MR. Yes. 8 MR. But you believe is 9 the one that should have certified the 2:00 to 10 4:00? 11 MR. Yeah. 12 MR. Do you believe 13 should have also while he was on duty, been the 14 one that had a signature from 4:00 p.m. on? 15 MR. He could have. He could 16 have. It's not - you don't have to be the 17 person (Indiscernible *01:07:18). Anybody 18 could sign the rounds but I just did it because 19 I was in and out the range, so I always signed 20 them. But anybody could have signed the rounds 21 as long as they did them. 22 MR. So what would your 23 opinion be if I tell you that someone like a 24 Tova Noel says that they actually fill this in 25 at the very start of their shift prior to ever EFTA00116153 95 1 conducting any rounds just to make sure that 2 it's filled out correctly. What would you say 3 to that? 4 MR. They fucked up because they 5 still not done it. Sorry. 6 MR. No. 7 MR. Excuse my language. 8 MR. That's what we're looking 9 for is some kind of, you know, honest answer. 10 MR. Yeah. No. That's a big no 11 go. 12 MR. Do you know if anyone was 13 doing that? 14 MR. I never worked with her 15 like that. I know she worked in SHU a couple 16 of times, but - and she was pretty new, so. 17 MR. So she - let's say 18 hypothetically, she's saying that she's doing 19 it, not based upon what people are telling her, 20 but watching other people and that's how they 21 did it. Do you know of anybody else that ever 22 did it that way? 23 MR. No. Again, I - if it was - 24 if they were working with me, it never 25 happened. EFTA00116154 96 1 MR. Okay. 2 MR. Yeah. You know, I got, like 3 I said, not to toot my own horn, but I very 4 prideful of my job and I was Officer of the 5 Year, Rookie of the Year, also won numerous 6 awards and I got promoted within five year. 7 MR. Okay. I got you. 8 MR. Obviously I was doing 9 something right. 10 MR. Sure. So being that, you 11 know, you've been around the block and you 12 sound like you're an ideal employee - how do I 13 ask this question? Would it surprise you that 14 she's saying that that's the way she thought it 15 was supposed to be done? 16 MR. Yes, definitely. 17 MR. And why? 18 MR. And we always say, "If you 19 see somebody else doing something wrong, 20 correct it, don't follow it." 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. So, I think - yes. 23 MR. Do you remember ever 24 speaking with Tova Noel about how to fill out 25 round sheets? EFTA00116155 97 1 MR. No. 2 MR. : No? And even as the OIC 3 and she's newer, would that have been something 4 that you dealt with her with and try to like 5 train her on it? 6 MR. I mean, I always decide to 7 do rounds within 30 to 40 minutes. 8 MR. Right. 9 MR. Yeah. 10 MR. But did you ever talk 11 about the actual documentation of it? 12 MR. No. 13 MR. No? 14 MR. Not specifically to her, 15 no. 16 MR. All right. And speaking 17 of Tova on August 9th, referring back to that 18 Lieutenant log, are you able to determine who 19 it was that would have been the supervisor on 20 duty that -- 21 MR. For that night? 22 MR. : -- that conducted a round 23 during - between 4:00 p.m. and midnight? 24 MR. That should have been 25 Lieutenant EFTA00116156 98 1 MR. : Lieutenant 2 MR. It says here - I don't know 3 Lieutenant - on the 9th. 4 MR. On the 9th, correct, so 5 not the 10th, the 9th. 6 MR. Oh, okay. 7 MR. Would have been or 8 9 MR. Well, was Acting 10 Lieutenant so she made the round at 7:31 p.m. 11 MR. Okay. And at 7:31 p.m. 12 on August 9th -- 13 MR. Correct. 14 MR. -- when she conducted a 15 round, would she have known that she had to 16 actually conduct the round and walk down the 17 tiers being that she was an Acting Lieutenant. 18 MR. Yes. 19 MR. So how would she know 20 that? 21 MR. She's the Acting 22 Lieutenant, so usually if you're an Acting 23 Lieutenant then you pretty much have to do 24 everything that the actual Lieutenant does 25 which is also part of conducting your rounds. EFTA00116157 99 1 Now, it's her and another Lieutenant working 2 that night. Sometimes the other Lieutenant 3 might say, "Don't worry about SHU, I'll do the 4 rounds." But according to the log, she did the 5 rounds at that time. 6 MR. : Now, is that 7 certification that they make at the bottom of 8 these round sheets, is that certifying that 9 they actually conducted a round of the tiers? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. : All right. So that's not 12 just saying that they visited the SHU, but 13 actually that they conducted a round in the 14 SHU. 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. Okay. Do you recall 17 having any conversations with anyone with 18 regard to rounds on August 9th, 2019? It could 19 be Epstein rounds, rounds in the SHU, anything 20 like that? 21 MR. Just staff, "Hey, let's 22 make sure we got these - keep these rounds up. 23 MR. Okay. But you are - you 24 said you did create the round sheet that 25 specifically said that Epstein rounds needed to EFTA00116158 100 1 be done every 30 minutes (Indiscernible 2 *01:11:54). 3 MR. Right. 4 MR. Okay. And do you 5 remember if, you know, when you're 6 MR. : So whoever was there, they 7 watched - saw that paper. Monday I came in and 8 that paper wasn't there anymore. 9 MR. So it was there when you 10 left at 2:00 p.m. on Friday, August 9th. 11 MR. Yeah, was here. 12 MR. And that was gone by 13 Monday. 14 MR. By Monday. 15 MR. Okay. 16 MR. I was off weekends. 17 MR. But it was definitely 18 there on August 9th? 19 MR. For a fact, yes. 20 MR. Okay. And you said it 21 was hanging right on the computer? 22 MR. eah. 23 MR. So it was like blocking 24 the screen or how -. 25 MR. No, it was right next to EFTA00116159 101 1 the screen. 2 MR. : Right next to the screen. 3 MR. It wasn't blocking the 4 screen. It was next to the screen. 5 MR. Is it hanging on the PC? 6 MR. Yeah. 7 MR. So, not the monitor -- 8 MR. Oh, no. 9 MR. -- but the actual computer 10 itself. 11 MR. Yeah, like on the side. 12 MR. And not only, obviously, 13 that's a big orange document, was it the same 14 size as what we're showing you or is that 15 enlarged? 16 MR. It was -- 17 MR. The same size as -- 18 MR. -- the same exact -. 19 MR. -- as a regular piece of 20 paper. 21 MR. That, but a little bright 22 orange paper with black letter. 23 MR. So roughly 11" by 12" or 24 13" or whatever those are. Okay. And so 25 obviously that's a notice for everyone. Do you EFTA00116160 102 1 remember on August 9th though specifically 2 talking with anyone about conducting rounds on 3 Epstein? 4 MR. It was something we spoke 5 about every day. 6 MR. Oh, you did. 7 MR. Like -- 8 MR. There were conversations, 9 "Make sure you -." 10 MR. -- "Hey, look, this guy is 11 still here. He's right there," you know, 12 "Let's make sure -." 13 MR. Even though he was in 14 attorney conference though? 15 MR. No. Make sure we're doing 16 rounds. And everybody spoke about it, "Make 17 sure we're doing round, make sure we're doing 18 rounds." 19 MR. So even though he's gone 20 for the majority of your day at least, was that 21 something, you know, when you were like leaving 22 your shift, would you have said, "Hey, make 23 sure 24 MR. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. -- you know, for God, EFTA00116161 103 1 make sure." 2 MR. Hell yeah. And, everybody 3 already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 4 "Hey, make sure you guys do your rounds." 5 MR. So that was going to be 6 my next question. So, who else was instructing 7 you on doing rounds and specifically doing 8 rounds on Epstein? 9 MR. Everybody. 10 MR. And can you remember -- 11 MR. So -. 12 MR. -- any specific direction 13 coming from anyone? 14 MR. So, Warden used to 15 walk around a lot in SHU and he say, "Hey, make 16 sure you guys keep an eye on him," pretty much 17 directly, but in the indirectly telling us to 18 do our job. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. Same thing with Lieutenant 21 He used to walk around, "Hey guys, make 22 sure you do your rounds." And, you know, 23 Lieutenant the same thing, "Hey, make 24 sure you guys do rounds." 25 MR. Now being that you were EFTA00116162 104 1 the OIC and was the SHU Lieutenant, can 2 you remember any specific conversations with 3 him with regard to Epstein and doing rounds or 4 anything? 5 MR. Well, he used to tell us 6 just, "Make sure you're on top of it. 7 MR. Do you know from the time 8 that Reyes was placed with on July 30th and the 9 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 10 cell mate. Can you recall any conversations 11 specifically with with regards to Epstein? 12 MR. I think he told us to put 13 him in with Reyes. Uh-huh. 14 MR. And again, do you know 15 why he was - Reyes was chosen? Now, I know you 16 said he was an older gentleman 17 MR. Right. 18 MR. -- and he had a cane or 19 something like that, but I mean, you -- 20 MR. So I think -. 21 MR. : -- you don't know 22 anything other than the fact that Psychology 23 MR.M: Psychology probably 24 recommended him or they looked through the 25 whole SHU roster and felt he was probably the EFTA00116163 105 1 safest person to put him with. 2 MR. Okay. And do you know if 3 people were conducting rounds on Epstein like 4 your sign said? Because you weren't there when 5 he was there, so do you know if -. 6 MR. So, after 2 o'clock, they 7 should have been conducting rounds. 8 MR. Right. 9 MR. And I don't remember - 10 MR. Well, he would get back 11 around like 8 o'clock, right? 12 MR. Right. I don't -- 13 MR. So, like 8:00 p.m. on -. 14 MR. -- remember if we started 15 showers or not going on but they should - 16 regardless while he was there or not, they 17 should have still continued the rounds. 18 MR. And I know that they 19 should have, but do you know if they were. 20 MR. I can't say, "Yes, they 21 did," or, "No, they did not. 22 MR. : But whenever you were 23 there, they were being done? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00116164 106 1 MR. e were all over the place. 2 MR. All right. So this is 3 where it's going to get a little complicated, 4 so just bear with me. I'm going to show you 5 these count slips from August 9th up until 6 midnight of August 10th. I'm just going to 7 have you help - this is where, remember, I said 8 I was going to help you, you know, put this 9 puzzle together. Believe we already know the 10 answers but I don't want to give you the 11 answers in fear that I'm wrong. So this is 12 from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count 13 and I want to show you the Lieutenant's log 14 which, where is that? So here's the 15 Lieutenant's log. And we didn't print out that 16 paper that I made, did I? 17 MR. Which one? 18 MR. The one that I drafted 19 yesterday and said, "Make sure we print this 20 out." All right, so, we'll just start with 21 8:00 a.m., since that's when you came in, so we 22 can actually - the reason I was showing you the 23 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to 24 notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00116165 107 1 MR. : And so 77 is the total 2 count in the SHU for inmates? 3 MR. Correct. 4 MR. Then we look back at 5 these count slips and we see - sorry I'm 6 looking over you, but, ZA says -. 7 MR. Thomas. 8 MR. : And at 10:00 it says, 9 "77," correct? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. : all right. So we'll put 12 that here. It says on the Lieutenant's log, 13 "77," -- 14 MR. 77, yes. 15 MR. : -- correct? All right. 16 So now where are we at? We're at the 4:00 p.m. 17 count. 18 MR. 4:00 p.m., yes. 19 MR. Correct? So for ZA, it 20 shows 76 total, right? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. One in attorney client, 23 brings it down to 75. 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. So what should the count EFTA00116166 108 1 slip reflect then? 2 MR. At this time? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. The count, the physical 5 bodies in SHU. 6 MR. Okay. So it should 7 reflect -- 8 MR. 75. 9 MR. -- 75. Okay, great. So 10 here where ZA, ZA shows 75, correct? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. Okay. Now we're looking 13 at 10:00 p.m. ZA says 73, right? 73 total 14 bodies it says at 10:00 p.m.? Now the ZA - 15 where is it? ZA count slip says, "73 plus 1." 16 First, can you think of any reason why it would 17 say, "Plus 1?" 18 MR It shouldn't say, "Plus 19 unless somebody came in at night. 20 MR. Z: Okay. 21 MR. But regardless, that 22 shouldn't be like that, it should be 74. 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. Not 73 plus 1. 25 MR. So this is where you're EFTA00116167 109 1 going to start getting interested. So at 2 midnight, the ZA count says, "72." "72," 3 right? So the count slip says, "73." Now, 4 reviewing this, the E-1 says, "72," same 5 institutional count, says, "72," the count slip 6 still says, "73." Now let's look at this. And 7 granted, you just told us this could have been 8 done later in the day so maybe this wasn't done 9 at the time. 10 MR. By that time, it should 11 have been done. 12 MR. So 8:00 a.m. So we have 13 these different places where it says these 14 people were moved. So the 8:30 a.m., do you 15 agree that inmate Reyes was removed and it 16 brings the count down to 76? 17 MR. Yes. 18 MR. All right. So we go down 19 to 75. is placed on dry cell from 20 ZA. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. Moves it down to -- 23 MR. 75. 24 MR. -- 75. All right. So 25 that 4:00 should have said - the 4:00 p.m. EFTA00116168 110 1 count should have said -. 2 MR. : Should have been 75. Which 3 is 75. 4 MR. Right. But, shouldn't 5 have this said, "75?" 6 MR. No. 7 MR. Because the 75, one 8 person in attorney, that should be 74, right? 9 MR. ■ 10 76. So now 11 MR. • : Yes. So this is fine at : But that, isn't that 12 referring to Epstein being in attorney? 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. So, shouldn't this say 75 15 based upon this? 16 MR. Reyes was moved before that. 17 MR. Unless -. 18 MR. : So this is at 3:15, the 19 count goes down to 75, so shouldn't this E-1 20 say 75 here? 21 MR. No, because this guy could 22 have still been doing dry cell in SHU. 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. Meaning, dry cell, he's 25 inside a cell. The water is off, he doesn't EFTA00116169 111 1 have any clothes. He uses the bathroom inside 2 of SHU. 3 MR. So -. 4 MR. : Let me keep my thought. 5 All right. So then this brings it down. So 6 3:15, now we go over to - brings it down to 74 7 here, IIIIIIIIII Brings that count 8 (Indiscernible *01:20:17) 74. 9 MR. He got kicked out. 10 MR. : Reid gets 73. 11 MR. He got kicked out. 12 MR. • goes down to 71. 13 MR. Another one -. 14 MR. • comes in, goes to 15 72. That's at 8:28 p.m. So 72 is the count at 16 8:28 p.m. ZA still says 73. Now let's look at 17 that. It says now, R&D now has one in it. 18 Fernandez is in R&D dry cell. It actually 19 doesn't even say he's on it in this thing. 20 MR. No. 21 MR. But, ZA says, "73," 22 there's no one for that one, correct? 23 MR. Right. 24 MR. And this is where it 25 says, "73 plus 1." Would the thought maybe EFTA00116170 112 1 saying, "73 plus 1," that one being Fernandez 2 on dry cell and they're using the institutional 3 count 73? 4 MR. Should have been, if he's 5 in dry cell in SHU, he's counted inside of SHU. 6 MR. Right. So -. 7 MR. If he's not in SHU, then he 8 shouldn't be counted. 9 MR. : So he's not in SHU. 10 MR. Correct. So that means, 11 the count should have been 73. 12 MR. And should have that 13 count been changed way back here if he's not in 14 SHU? Should have this, like we talked about, 15 this 4:00 p.m. -- 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. -- should have said 75? 18 MR. Correct. 19 MR. And why is that? 20 MR. You count physical bodies. 21 MR. Physical bodies. You 22 don't count ghost count or you don't count 23 people that aren't in your -. 24 MR. No. if you don't see the 25 flesh and it's a stand up count, so every EFTA00116171 113 1 person or inmate, whether it's in SHU or in a 2 unit, they have to stand up for the count and 3 you verify it, one, two, three, four, five, 4 six, then the person behind you has to verify 5 that count. 6 All right, and so what is 7 your -. 8 MR. If it's a body there, he 9 gets counted. 10 MR. What is your opinion then 11 if in fact that 3:15, Fernandez is moved out of 12 the SHU and placed -- 13 MR. Then the count just 14 dropped. 15 MR. -- and placed into - 16 right. But the fact that the count slip for ZA 17 matches still what the E-1 says. Does that 18 tell you anything about if the count was 19 conducted or not? 20 It should have been - and 21 everything is should have. So -- 22 MR. So that should have said 23 - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if 24 Fernandez isn't in there, that should have 25 actually said, "74," correct? EFTA00116172 114 1 MR. Yes. 2 MR. So does that tell you 3 that they did or did not conduct the count in 4 the SHU? 5 MR. : If they counted 75 physical 6 bodies, then that's a good count. 7 MR. Right. 8 MR. But now, if there is not 75 9 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off 10 whatever it is they were going off and verified 11 it with this paper right here, which not 12 everybody has access to it. This is the E-1 13 that we keep count on. 14 MR. So would the SHU people 15 that are in the SHU, would they have access to 16 know what the count was for this E-1, what 17 they're utilizing for that count? 18 MR. No. Unless somebody says, 19 "Hey, you're missing one, your count is 75." 20 MR. So the only way someone 21 in the SHU would be able to actually know what 22 number to provide is by actually doing the 23 count? 24 MR. orrect. 25 MR. Really? All right. So EFTA00116173 115 1 if we know that Fernandez is now not in the 2 SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number 3 and for 4:00 p.m. and then as well as 10:00 4 p.m., they're coming up with a wrong number and 5 again at midnight, they're writing down the 6 wrong number. They're writing down the number 7 that they think the institutional count is, but 8 there's not that many people that are actually 9 in SHU. How do we explain that? 10 MR. So, the only thing I can 11 think of is they put - they locked somebody up 12 between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock 13 count meaning somebody from the unit did 14 something wrong and they ended up in the 15 Special Housing Unit. So that's how the 16 numbers would be different. 17 MR. So if we have information 18 that -. 19 MR. And - sorry to interrupt. 20 MR. : No, go ahead. 21 MR. Again, everybody is human 22 and everybody makes mistakes, unless somebody 23 write in the log missed one inmate going from a 24 unit out or leaving from SHU to a unit. 25 MR. Well, that's exactly EFTA00116174 116 2 out of the 3 until this 4 MR. 5 cell where? 6 MR. - 1 right. So at 3:15, Fernandez was never keyed SHU. He wasn't keyed out of the SHU count at midnight. So he was placed in dry So, at - he was placed in 7 dry cell at - are R&D and RA the same thing? 8 9 MR. ■ MR. 10 what it is that 11 *01:25:01) -- 12 13 14 15 16 MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. 17 read it, so. Okay. That's right. Yeah, can you just read you showed (Indiscernible Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. ■ -- no -- Okay. Sorry. -- I mean, you should 18 MR. Just, I pointed to the line 19 that states, on the day watch for Friday, 20 August 9th, there's a line that says, "Inmate 21 Fernandez, 86824054 on dry cell with staff 22 watch in R&D." Is R- Agent asked a question. 23 MR. a So, with this knowledge 24 and now also, with like I showed you - or first 25 of all, are count slips for RA and R&D, are EFTA00116175 117 1 they the same thing? 2 MR. Well it should be just R&D. 3 There's - 4 MR. Because one was on one of 5 these - let me see. It's at 12:00 a.m. It 6 actually says, "RA." 7 MR. That should be a B. 8 MR. Instead of a D?