DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00119019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 EDWARD HAYES 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00119020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 MR. : Okay. Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : This interview with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it 10 11 MR. -: 12 MR. : Is being conducted as 13 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 14 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 15 Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the 16 time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? 18 MR. : 515. 19 MR. : 515? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st 22 floor. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 . New York, New York. Also 25 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00119021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 As well as -- 2 UNKNOWN MALE: Edward Hayes. 3 MR. : -- Mr. 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? 5 MR. HAYES: Edward Hayes. H-A-Y-E-S. 6 First name E-D-W-A-R-D. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. Who is 8 representing Mr. . This interview will 9 be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 10 . could everyone please identify 11 themselves for the record, and spell your last 12 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 13 Special Agent, 14 15 MR. : This is DOJ Special Agent 16 . And these are my 17 credentials. 18 MR. : Okay. And I am -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't -- 20 MR. 21 MR. HAYES: I can't show you any 22 credentials. 23 MR. . First name -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. . And EFTA00119022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 last name 2 3 MR. : Thank you, sir. Do you 4 happen to one -- 5 MR. HAYES: I still don't know how he 6 pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm 7 so arrogant that I don't carry identification. 8 You know what I mean? 9 MR. : No. That's fine. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. But you are sitting 11 down here, you are willing to pay the fee. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: You know who I am. 14 MR. : So, I am looking at Mr. 15 law enforcement officer credentials. 16 And it has a picture. And a signature of the 17 gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, 18 sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and 19 again, it's Edward -- 20 MR. HAYES: Edward 21 MR. : -- Hayes. 22 MR. HAYES: -- Hayes. And I'm sorry, I 23 don't have -. I really -- 24 MR. : No. That's quite all 25 right. EFTA00119023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: -- as I say -- 2 MR. : But you are 3 MR. HAYES: -- Edward Hayes. I'm his 4 lawyer. 5 MR. : -- perfect, and we're in 6 your office. 7 MR. HAYES: Right. 8 MR. : This is an official 9 DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate 10 Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances 11 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 12 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 13 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 14 the DOJ/OIG? 15 MR. : Yes, I will. 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 17 the form that we have to do all interviews, 18 interviewees. 19 MR. HAYES: Is that form B? 20 MR. : This is the OIG form III- 21 226/2. 22 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But it says is - I'm 25 going to read it for you - United States EFTA00119024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 2 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 3 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 4 Basis. It says, "You are being asked to 5 provide information as part of an investigation 6 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 7 General. This investigation is being conducted 8 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 9 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 10 performance failure, and security failure." 11 And this is what we are writing for everyone 12 that we speak to, just because we're looking at 13 it as a -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- whole of what 16 happened. "This is a voluntary interview. 17 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 18 questions. No disciplinary action will be 19 taken against you if you chose not to answer 20 questions. Any statements you furnish may be 21 used as evidence in any future criminal 22 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 23 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver 24 section. It says, "I understand the Warnings 25 and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00119025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 4 used against me." If you would like to take a 5 look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if 6 you want your attorney to look at it, he may, 7 as well. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : You can sign where it 10 says "Employee Signature." And then, also 11 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 12 MR. HAYES: I'm sure you did. Okay. 13 There is no place that said attorneys -- 14 MR. : No, no, no. 15 MR. HAYES: -- signatures. 16 MR. : It's not for you to sign. 17 It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's 18 just if you wanted to review it, or ask any -- 19 MR. HAYES: No, that's all right. 20 MR. : -- questions about it. 21 MR. HAYES: That's all right. I do have a 22 question. 23 MR. : Where do you want me to 24 sign? 25 MR. HAYES: In other words, if you say to EFTA00119026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him -- 2 MR. : Oh, so, where it says -- 3 MR. : Right side. 4 MR. : -- "Employee Signature." 5 MR. HAYES: Do you have sex with ducks? 6 And so, I'm not going to answer that question. 7 That's the - he can't get in trouble for that? 8 MR. : I won't be asking that 9 question. 10 MR. HAYES: I mean, (Indiscernible 11 *00:04:18). 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:20). 13 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:04:22). 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:21). 15 Okay. 16 MR. : Under the interview that 17 we are doing right now, for voluntary 18 interviews, he doesn't have to answer our 19 questions. 20 MR. : Okay. Great. 21 MR. : All right. So, thank you 22 for signing that, sir. Did you have any 23 questions on the form? 24 MR. : No, I don't. 25 MR. : All right. So, I'm EFTA00119027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 2 Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing 3 my name. 4 MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, 5 ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at 6 Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. 8 I had severe arthritis in my neck, and it's 9 radiated down to my hands. I can't really 10 basically write. So, that's why -- 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. HAYES: -- I'm not taking notes. But 13 I have a pretty good memory, so, yeah. 14 MR. : All right. Great. 15 , can you just sign as the witness? 16 MR. : Oh. 17 MR. : Put your name and take 18 care of the rest of the form. 19 MR. : This is Special Agent 20 I'm signing as the witness, and dating 21 it. 22 MR. : All right. Before 23 starting the interview, I would like to place 24 you under oath. Mr. can you please 25 raise your right hand? EFTA00119028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 3 truth and nothing but the truth during this 4 interview? 5 MR. : I do. 6 MR. : Thank you, sir. What is 7 your current home address? 8 MR. -: 9 Burlington, New Jersey. 08016. 10 MR. : And what is your date of 11 birth? 12 MR. -: 13 MR. : And what -- 14 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 15 MR. : -- what is the 16 MR. HAYES: I'm old. 17 MR. : -- what are the last four 18 of your social security number? 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Is it correct that you 21 were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter 22 on August 19th, 2019? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Or in August of 2019. 25 MR. : I know it was some time in EFTA00119029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 August. 2 MR. : Correct. Okay. How long 3 have you worked for the BOP? 4 MR. : 30 years. And August, 5 September, October, November. 30 years and 6 three months. 7 MR. : All right. And what is 8 your current position with the BOP? 9 MR. : I'm the Warden at FCI Fort 10 Dix. 11 MR. : Okay. And what are your 12 You are the warden, you said? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Were you previously a 15 regional director? 16 MR. : I was the deputy regional 17 director in Philadelphia. 18 MR. : And how long have you 19 been the warden at FCI Fort Dix? 20 MR. : About two or three weeks. 21 Two weeks. 22 MR. : Oh, so -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- it's a brand -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- new position? 2 MR. : It just got there. Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. How long were you 4 the deputy regional director? 5 MR. : I got it in February. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Of 2021. 8 MR. : Okay. And as the deputy 9 regional director, what were your duties and 10 responsibvilities? 11 MR. : Monitoring he activities of 12 the 20 institutions in the region, and, you 13 know, managing the administratives within the 14 northeast region, and, you know, showing that 15 institutions were running in an orderly 16 fashion. 17 MR. : Now, did you supervise 18 the various wardens at those institutions? 19 MR. : Yes. I was over there. I 20 was the rating official on some of the 21 evaluations. 22 MR. : And were you a warden 23 prior to that position? 24 MR. : Yes, I was. 25 MR. : Where were you a warden? EFTA00119031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : In New York. MCC. The 2 Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 3 MR. : And how long were you a 4 warden there? 5 MR. : I came from May of - '17, 6 '18 - May of '18 until, I forget the date, in 7 2020. I forget what it was. 8 MR. : Okay. So, May 2018 to 9 some time in 2020 -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- when you became the 12 regional director? 13 MR. : No. The position 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- prior to that, I was 16 given -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- was a liaison to the 19 regional director. And then, I went into the 20 deputy position. 21 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. Ana 22 August of 2019, though, were you a warden at 23 the MCC New York? 24 MR. : Yes, I was. 25 MR. : Thank you, sir. And are EFTA00119032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who 2 was housed within the MCC in July and August of 3 2019? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Yes. Okay. Great. What 6 I have here is an after-action report that was 7 written by the BOP. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Have you seen this? 10 MR. : I have not seen that. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 not something that you are actually familiar 13 with? 14 MR. : No, I am not. 15 MR. : No one discussed any 16 findings or anything like that with you? 17 MR. : No one. 18 MR. : All right. I'm going to 19 set this aside just in case we need to, you 20 know, reference it. So, no role in the after- 21 action report? 22 MR. : Nothing. I wasn't 23 interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 24 MR. : All right. Do you know 25 of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to EFTA00119033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and at least about, like, providing the 2 information that they utilized to this report? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : No. Okay. Fair enough. 5 After the incident occurred, what was your role 6 with determining what happened and what didn't 7 happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 8 2019? 9 MR. : Well, I responded to the 10 institution. At the time, when I got there, he 11 was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the 12 unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, 13 and I've always been trained, if it was a crime 14 scene, if you weren't particularly there, the 15 least amount of people that, you know, that go 16 through that crime scene, just don't go into 17 it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, 18 basically gathering information on what 19 happened, notifying the region, notifying the 20 FBI. The IG. 21 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 22 He's already got that phone call. 23 MR. : Oh. 24 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I 25 mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00119034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. HAYES: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to 3 sell. Oh, okay. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: That's why we do it for the 6 next six months. 7 MR. : So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 10 more along those lines. 11 MR. : Now, did you help with 12 gathering information, up until a certain 13 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 14 or did you continue to gather -? 15 MR. : No, like, my boss was 16 calling me the regional director. They needed 17 information. You know, starting a timeline on 18 what happened. So, I had my executive 19 assistant there, and, you know, we would just 20 gather any information, and just, you know, 21 making sure that, you know, things that were 22 requested were being provided to them, any 23 information. 24 MR. : And who was the regional 25 director at the time? EFTA00119035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time. MR. MR. your executive assistant? MR. Dia. *00:10:21). MR. : Okay. : It was , at the : Okay. And then, who was MR. MR. • • • MR. : Now, as part of our investigation, we have to review everyone's emails, with regard to the incident. MR. : Right. MR. : So, you mentioned that you provided Mr. with timelines -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- and things like that. So, these are just some timelines from - again, Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33 a .m. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : In the Special Housing Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it looks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m. So, a few hours after the fact. It just says, EFTA00119036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know 2 what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -. 3 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 4 different timelines that are all updated 5 throughout the day. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Here is one that was at 8 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 9 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 10 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 11 the August 13th. So, these, do these look like 12 the timelines that you would have been 13 gathering information and providing to Mr. 14 15 MR. : Okay. It looks like it. 16 MR. : Now, where were you 17 actually obtaining this information from? You 18 said III was obtaining it for you? 19 MR. : He was the exec, we recall, 20 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 21 specifics on how we get it, because there was 22 so much going on. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : That, you know, I don't 25 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you EFTA00119037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 know, calling around and trying to find out. 2 So, I don't really recall the specifics. 3 MR. : All right. Well, rather 4 than get into each one of these, because it 5 will take too long, I'll just do the very first 6 one. It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at 7 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in 8 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 9 staff initially." So, that is referring to the 10 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 11 on his life? 12 MR. : Let me see which one. Are 13 we talking the day of, or -? 14 MR. : No. This is 15 MR. : This is July. 16 MR. : -- yeah, July, 17 (Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27. 18 MR. : Oh, no. This is July. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : This is the 21 MR. : So, this is the 22 MR. : -- no, the -- 23 MR. -: -- timeline. 24 MR. this would -. We would 25 have probably got this from the SIS EFTA00119038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 investigation. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : From that. I thought you 4 were referring to the actual suicide. This is 5 6 MR. : No. What I meant was -- 7 MR. : -- this is -. 8 MR. : -- just the information 9 that was all put in there, as far as -- 10 MR. HAYES: This was his first attempt. 11 MR. : -- well, it's everything. 12 So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is 13 July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then, 14 and then, until -. So, it's only - there is 15 only a few. That's why I was going to read it, 16 just because there is only, like, three 17 paragraphs, four or five, four or five 18 paragraphs. 19 MR. : So, this looks to me like we 20 sentd the information to the regional director 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- and what he did was, 24 compile this information to send to DOJ. 25 MR. : Okay. Oh, you're right. EFTA00119039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : III -- 3 MR. : This is not -- 4 MR. : -- sent this to you. So, 5 he is saying -- 6 MR. : -- yeah, this thing. 7 MR. : -- "see below -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- just ensure you know." 10 MR. : so, this is compiled off of 11 several different documents -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : -- which he condensed. 14 MR. : So -- 15 MR. : From -. 16 MR. : -- he sent it to you. 17 I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So, 18 looking at this, then, let's just review it and 19 make each point, just make sure that it's what 20 you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, 21 Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell, 22 breathing, but would not acknowledge staff 23 initially." 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : —"After removed, he EFTA00119040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 interacted with staff and speaking to staff. 2 Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and 3 medical evaluation. Epstein receive daily 4 psychological evaluations while on suicide 5 watch." Was that your recollection, too? 6 MR. : Yeah. That is what is in 7 the report. But I want to -- 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : -- clarify what we went -. 10 You know, when I, when you first read it to me 11 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : I thought you meant the 14 day of. 15 MR. : Yup, yup. 16 MR. : So -- 17 MR. : Well, we have that, too. 18 That's -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- that one is here. And 21 this one is from you, and this is what I 22 thought it was starting with, as well. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Because it said timeline 25 on it. From you to Mr. This initial EFTA00119041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 one actually talks about Friday, August 9th, 2 2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes 3 Efrain, reg number 85993-054, departs for 4 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein's 5 cellmate." 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, just starting with 8 that, then, I do have, we're going to get into 9 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 10 says inmate Reyes is departing for court, but 11 it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY? 12 MR. : So, that would mean With All 13 Belongings. 14 MR. : So, that means he's not 15 returning. Correct? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right. So, at 8:00 18 a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not 19 coming back to the MCC. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : All right. Great. And 22 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 23 throughout that day. And we're going to get 24 into these things more in detail, so I don't 25 want to go through each thing, because we're EFTA00119042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 going to have to get into it later. But so, 2 this information is stuff that you guys were 3 compiling, and you were providing to Mr. 4 5 MR. : That would probably be 6 information that we sent up to him. 7 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 8 this is all the updates that occurred 9 afterwards. Let's see. Why is that 10 highlighted? So, here is something. Why, dDo 11 you know why in this one, it would be updated? 12 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 13 "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 14 warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong 15 place or something, and it says, "Inmate Reyes 16 released from court." 17 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:27). 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 19 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 20 10th. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible 22 *00:16:34). 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. So, the 24 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 25 just shows the next update, you have that under EFTA00119043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August - or Saturday - August 10th. 2 MR. : This can't be -. This 3 doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it 4 says, "PIO notified of incident by the warden." 5 I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at 6 work. 7 MR. : Yeah. So, that's why I 8 think that they So, the next one I'm 9 looking at shows that that point is now under 10 Saturday, August 10th. 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't know why it 12 would be -- 13 MR. : So -- 14 MR. : -- under Friday, because I 15 wasn't -- 16 MR. : -- yeah. Okay. 17 MR. I wasn't working. 18 MR. : So, you were actually off 19 20 MR. : I was off -- 21 MR. : -- off on August 9th? 22 MR. : -- on Friday. Yes. 23 MR. : All right. You and 24 everyone else. 25 MR. : Huh? EFTA00119044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 MR. : Everybody was off that 2 day. 3 MR. : Yeah. I didn't come back to 4 work until, when I got called, there was a 5 suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). 6 MR. : Okay. So, all of this. 7 So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind. 8 So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to 9 assume that, as this went on, and specifically, 10 the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 11 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, 12 would be the most accurate timeline? 13 MR. : It should be, but I don't 14 want to attest to it. I mean -- 15 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 16 MR. yeah. 17 MR. : I'm just saying, based 18 is there any reason for you to believe that the 19 timelines that were provided, or in any way, it 20 was determined that, you know, we should add a 21 point that actually didn't occur? Or is it 22 safe to assume that, the last one that was sent 23 would be the most accurate one? 24 MR. : That's how it typically 25 works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't EFTA00119045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 attest to it -- 2 MR. : And yeah. 3 MR. : -- of whether it was 4 accurate, but typically, the last one that you 5 send usually, you know, if you have to make 6 corrections, you make the corrections. Aded 7 information, if you have to. 8 MR. : Sure. Okay. Great. 9 When I show you things, it's not attesting to 10 it, but -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : I'm going to ask you 13 just to initial and date, and that's just to 14 say, specifically, that this is the document we 15 looked atr—and when we spoke. It is absolutely 16 not attesting to it. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : It's not saying that this 19 stuff is accurate. 20 MR. : And so, I write the date -- 21 MR. : If you could -- 22 MR. and put reviewed on it, 23 or -? 24 MR. : nope. Just your 25 initial and date. I'm just going to do this EFTA00119046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to 2 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 3 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 4 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 5 MR. : What's the date? The 18th? 6 MR. : 27th. 7 MR. : 27th. 8 MR. : 10/27/21. 9 MR. : Thank you, sir, for 10 initialing and dating that. All right. I', 11 going to just actually, because it's the 12 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me 13 because we might have to reference it. 14 MR. HAYES: I can tell -- 15 MR. : All right. 16 MR. HAYES: -- this is going to be a long- 17 ass interview. 18 MR. : It's going to be pretty 19 long. That's where I was trying to -- 20 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Just -. 21 MR. : -- you know? All right. 22 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 23 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 24 Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 25 MR. : I recall the investigation EFTA00119047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 that couldn't determine if they had an 2 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt 3 at suicide. 4 MR. : All right. So -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- so, something happened 7 on the July 23rd -- 8 MR. : Something happened -- 9 MR. where Mr. 10 MR. in his cell. 11 MR. : -- Epstein was found 12 with, like, a - was it a noose around his neck? 13 MR. : It wasn't determined. It 14 was, you know, that he was laying in his cell, 15 but I don't recall the specifics of the report. 16 But I know it went back and forth where there 17 was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate 18 19 MR. : Tartaglione. 20 MR. : -- with - yeah - 21 Tartaglione. Yeah. 22 MR. : All right. So, these are 23 emails that we reviewed with regard -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- to that incident. EFTA00119048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, this one is 3 specifically from, it says . Was that -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- your AW? 7 MR. : That is the AW. 8 MR. : Send it to you? 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : And this is a memo from, 11 it says Mr. is the 12 operations lieutenant. 13 MR. : Yeah. Lieutenant. She's a 14 female. 15 MR. : Right. This is where I 16 wanted to ask you if you knew -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- about this. It 19 specifically says, so, it was originally, I 20 guess, sent from Captain to AW Skipper- 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- from to 24 you. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. : And her note to you says, 2 "From the memo attached, the information I 3 received is not what I was told happened." 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : So, what I wanted to know 6 is, and I guess, would you like me just to 7 refresh your memory, to really quickly read 8 what she said happened, so we can figure out 9 what it is that didn't happen? 10 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again, 13 July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me 14 just sit back so you can just kind of read 15 along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to 16 you? 17 MR. : No. No problem. 18 MR. : I'm vaccinated, just so 19 you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at 20 approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance 21 on the Special Housing Unit was announced by 22 the control center. Upon my arrival, I was 23 informed that an inmate had attempted suicide 24 and proceeded to cell 205-124LAD. I observed 25 inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, EFTA00119050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 lying in the fetal position on the floor of his 2 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. 3 He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. 4 I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him 5 flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His 6 neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no 7 further injuries to his person. An attempt was 8 made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to 9 stand on his own, with negative results. The 10 inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff 11 was directed to retrieve the stretcher. 12 As inmate Epstein was being placed on the 13 stretcher by responding staff, he would open 14 his eyes and observe staff. When staff made 15 eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut 16 his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit." 17 Was it that? The health care? 18 MR. : Health. Health Services. 19 MR. : "Dressed in a suicide 20 smock, and placed on suicide watch. While 21 awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, 22 inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and 23 began moving forward, as if was attempting to 24 fall over, head first. When I looked away, he 25 straightened up. As I turned to look at him EFTA00119051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 again, he attempted the same act. I laid him 2 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his 3 action or he would be placed in restraints for 4 his safety. 5 At that moment, he stated, `Okay. I won't 6 do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because 7 of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was 8 made to have the staff member observe inmate 9 Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make 10 staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke 11 with Officer who stated that Inmate 12 Epstein was alert and had indicated that his 13 cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514- 14 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been 15 harassing him. 16 He stated that the inmate had indicated 17 that he had informed his attorney of this 18 matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate 19 Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was 20 asleep with his headphones on when he felt 21 something hit his legs, and said, . What 22 are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got 23 up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He 24 got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a 25 string around his neck. EFTA00119052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 He stated that he then called the guards, and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Ddaily Nnews. Nick was on the floor reading the Ddaily Nfiews. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, `These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is EFTA00119053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inhumane. I wish I could report it. Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the Ddaily Nnews that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff's arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical -" how do you pronounce that name? MR. MR. • • "Was EFTA00119054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 notified and briefed. It was determined that 2 no further medical attention was needed. A 3 medical assessment was 4 time of this incident, 5 6 7 8 MR. -: 9 MR. 10 11 12 13 left knee." 14 15 16 you as inaccurate? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, when 19 20 21 22 23 MR. 24 that she told, 25 not conducted at the due to the fact there was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate Epstein was examined and treated by "For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base of his neck. One section on the front, with marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his So, sorry that that was so lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, is this, is this, does anything in here strike says that in the attached memo, "The information I received is not what I was told happened." Do you know what she is referring to? : I think she - if I recall that said that it was an attempted suicide, but then she got any EFTA00119055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 additional information that it might have been 2 Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 3 cell. 4 MR. : And what, and my 5 understanding is that SIS came up with 6 inconclusive findings. 7 MR. : In the investigation. 8 MR. : What is your belief that 9 happened? 10 MR. : I can't speculate. 11 MR. : You don't -. 12 MR. : I don't want -. I mean, I 13 don't know, you know, with the injuries on the 14 neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I 15 don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that 16 was something done to him. So, couldn't prove 17 what it was. 18 MR. : Okay. And is it, is 19 there any reason for us to know or believe that 20 it was one or the other, though? I know you 21 are trying not to speculate, but -. 22 MR. : I mean, I would, you know, 23 you have there be the medical department, who 24 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 25 you could say you come to a conclusion from EFTA00119056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 injuries, from physical injuries, but we 2 weren't even able to do that. 3 MR. : So, according to the 4 medical assessment, your understanding is that 5 they weren't able to tell if someone -? 6 MR. : That, from what I - if I can 7 - and I don't know - I read it - but I don't 8 know -. I remember on the report, they were 9 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 10 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 11 assaulted? 12 MR. : And were you satisfied 13 with that response, or did you think that they 14 missed something? 15 MR. : I think they looked into it. 16 And I think it was, you know, you couldn't look 17 into it any further. I mean, either -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- it was a suicide, or i- 20 was assault. So, we separated them. 21 MR. : Okay. But there is 22 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you 23 weren't, you know -? 24 MR. : I mean, they interviewed 25 them. They asked the questions. You had the EFTA00119057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 medical assessment. So, I don't know what 2 other -- 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : -- conclusions could have 5 been drawn from it. 6 MR. : And what happened with 7 inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 8 23rd. 9 MR. : I don't specifically 10 remember what happened. I know we separated 11 the both of them. He wasn't - and then, I know 12 he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a 13 watch. And then had psychology talk to him. 14 MR. : Okay. So, just so, that 15 is just so you know, if you don't mind just 16 initialing and dating that one, that we just 17 read. Okay. So, this next one is from 18 to a 19 (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05). 20 MR. : She's a psychologist. 21 MR. : Okay. And then, with 22 UCC. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : It says, "SW, 25 chronological log, re: Epstein." It says, EFTA00119058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 "C.O. Thomas was assigned to staff watch. 2 However, the wrong book was used. I am 3 companion log, —in lieu of staff suicide watch 4 log." 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Was that something 7 normal? Was that an easy mistake? 8 MR. : yeah, I could see it 9 happening because we have a log that the 10 inmate, you have an inmate companions that 11 watch inmates. So, they use the log. And 12 then, you have, if staff are going to sit on 13 someone, then they use a certain log. But the 14 fact that, you know, the documentation took 15 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 16 error. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : But they did document, so. 19 MR. : Now, C.O. Thomas. Is 20 this Michael Thomas that you, are you aware? 21 MR. : I had two Thomas's. I don't 22 know which one it was. 23 MR. : Okay. So, if I tell you 24 it was -- 25 MR. : No, no, no. It had to be EFTA00119059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 Officer Thomas, because if it was C.O. Thomas, 2 he would have been - his title is material 3 handler. 4 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 5 believe it was actually Michael Thomas? 6 MR. : No. I think it was the 7 officer. 8 MR. : It was Mr. Michael 9 Thomas. Just from our records and from 10 speaking -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- with Mr. Thomas. 13 MR. : Can I see the log 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : -- how he opened the log? 16 MR. : That is correct, right, 17 18 MR. : Where does it show that he 19 started his shift? Because usually, when you 20 come on shift, you write -- 21 MR. : This is what -- 22 MR. : -- the name. 23 MR. : -- was attached to that 24 email. 25 MR. : Yeah. Typically, when you EFTA00119060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 start your shift, your start off, you know, 2 you're putting your name, if you are relieved, 3 or you assume suicide watch. 4 MR. : So, here is the next 5 email, so you might be able to show me an 6 example of what you are referring to. It's 7 this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd, 8 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 9 that maybe he should have been using. But 10 here, it shows all the other logs. 11 MR. : So, this is -. 12 MR. : Hmm. 13 MR. : See, this is what I mean by 14 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 15 they leave -- 16 MR. : This is the -. 17 MR. : -- they mix the book up. 18 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. 19 But typically, when you come on, let's say the 20 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 21 name, as assuming the duties. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And you typically say who 24 you relieved on there. 25 MR. : All right. So, it looks EFTA00119061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly. 2 MR. : They didn't fill it out 3 correctly. 4 MR. : And so, our investigation 5 shows that it was Michael Thomas -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- that was on him on the 8 23rd. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : And that wasn't an "I 11 gotcha," whatsoever. My question was actually, 12 Michael Thomas is the one that actually found 13 him on August 10th. Correct? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : And is that suspicious at 16 all to you, that he was the one that was 17 watching him on suicide watch, and then that he 18 is the one that found him on the 10th? 19 MR. : No. I mean, typically, we 20 had so much overtime in the institution, that - 21 and we go by when you sign up for it. So, 22 there is a program that you sign up for, and 23 don't know how the lieutenant did. They might 24 have called them, then he signed up for it. 25 So, I don't know. I can't say if it was EFTA00119062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 suspicious or not. MR. : Sure. And then, all these documents that we're reviewing right here, on these two emails, what are they? MR. : Which one? MR. : Both of them. 7 MR. : The suicide watch log? 8 MR. : Yeah. So, is this 9 suicide watch log, as well as this? 10 MR. : Yeah. The suicide 11 observation log, and this is, appears to be the 12 cover of a logbook, for suicide watch. 13 MR. : Perfect. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : All right. Do you mind 16 just initial and dating this? And again, these 17 aren't trick questions -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -: -- I just don't want to, 20 like, put answers in your -. If I think it is 21 something, but maybe it's not, you might be 22 able to tell me what it actually is. 23 MR. : This one, too? 24 MR. Yes, please. Thank you, 25 sir. And this is, this says psych ops. So, EFTA00119063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 this is another one of those emails. This one 2 is from to you. Also dated August 10th, 3 2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued on 4 7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct? 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : At 8:15 a.m. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : So, is this also part of 9 the suicide watch log? 10 MR. : That is a log you would also 11 use. 12 MR. : Okay. Great. And does 13 it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15 14 a.m., psych observation is being 15 discontinued."? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Awesome. Do you 18 mind just initial and dating this? And 19 as I am giving these to you, can you try to 20 keep these in order with regard to -- 21 MR. : I've just been stacking them. 22 MR. : -- making a note. Don't 23 stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, 24 bundled together, so we know this is psych. 25 This is, like, the psych observation logbook. EFTA00119064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, if you can keep them, 3 and then write a note on them. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So that when we are 6 After this thing is transcribed, we can keep 7 things in order. This one is regarding the 8 first attempt, and the one we read from 9 And can you tell me, sir, what 10 this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that 11 same date that he came off of -. What am I 12 looking at here? 13 MR. : So, this is -. Date, name, 14 signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is 15 -. Is this a entrance log to the Special 16 Housing Unit? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. That's 18 what I'm saying. 19 MR. : I'm just, I don't know. It 20 might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. 21 MR. : These are all dates, but 22 at least up until 7/30, that he was in the 23 Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. 24 So, I don't know if he would sign himself in. 25 MR. : No, no. EFTA00119065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : I don't know. It might be 3 an entrance -- 4 MR. : Or is it to the attorney 5 visits or something? 6 MR. : -- it might be attorney 7 visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic 8 Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name. 9 Name. This might be an attorney log. Name. 10 Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is 11 probably an attorney -- 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. the log into the attorney 14 room. I think that's probably it. 15 MR. : Here is Epstein again. 16 It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30. 17 MR. : The different attorneys. 18 He, you know, he could have had one attorney 19 that comes in early in the morning -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. and then, any time a new 22 one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who 23 you came to see. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, he had multiple -- EFTA00119066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, this is -- 2 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 3 *00:37:46). 4 MR. : -- an attorney log. 5 MR. : This is an attorney log. He 6 usually had multiple attorneys. 7 MR. : So, it wasn't Epstein 8 signing his name. They are 9 MR. : No, no. 10 MR. : -- saying they were 11 visiting this person. 12 MR. : Whoever comes and visits has 13 to put who -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- they are visiting. 16 MR. : So, the visitor logs were 17 for attorneys. 18 MR. : Attorneys. Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. You mind just 20 initial and dating that? And again, if 21 you want to write on here, just -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- attorney logbook 24 visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of 25 what it is these things are. Now, is this the EFTA00119067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 same thing we just looked at? This looks like, 2 again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed 3 duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 4 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred 5 to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. 6 until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion 7 was utilized." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : So, this one says July 10 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch 11 chronological log. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : Inmate companion logs. 14 Does this tell you anything more about Michael 15 Thomas, or anything different? What is this? 16 This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? 17 That's just he's on it? 18 MR. : Yeah. It just says, you 19 know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. 20 You got category. I don't know what the MDS 21 is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, 22 could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he 23 was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, 24 this must be a medical term. Concerning his 25 medical status. EFTA00119068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 2 this is the first page, it looks like, of the 3 logbook. Does this tell you 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- anything different 6 than what we looked at before, or is this the 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 same thing? MR. : It's the same. It's an inmate suicide watch -- MR. : Okay. MR. log. MR. : So, it doesn't say Michael Thomas on it, it just -- MR. : No. It says inmate companion was watching him. MR. : Okay. You said inmate Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of MR. MR. MR. MR. : Yeah, yeah. : -- the actual. Okay. : You have -- : I got you. So, whatever, does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that was his companion? MR. : Inmate companion Estebaen EFTA00119069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number 2 right there. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. 4 MR. : Assumed responsibility for 5 inmate Epstein on -. 6 MR. : Perfect. 7 MR. : So, that's why I was telling 8 you, the staff one should read just like that, 9 too. 10 MR. : All right. So, this one 11 is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : -- Epstein's companion on 14 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and 15 dating that? 16 MR. : And this is right after the 17 incident. The first incident, right? 18 MR. : This is - so, July 23rd 19 or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on 20 suicide watch, not on observation. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : And this is that, it 23 looks like this one is, again, it's from you to 24 Mr. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : It says psych ops/suicide 2 watch. And it looks like it's the difference 3 between the two. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : In laymen's terms, what 6 is the difference between suicide watch and 7 psychological observation at the MCC, during 8 this time period when Epstein was on it? 9 MR. : So, suicide watch is when we 10 have determined, or there is a possibility, 11 through what an individual is saying, that they 12 might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops 13 is, that person might not admit it, and we 14 might not have anything to say to put them on 15 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 16 call psychological observation. 17 MR. : And now, it was my 18 understanding -- 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 20 MR. : -- it's basically the 21 same thing, aside from what the inmate is 22 allowed to have, such as clothes. 23 MR. : That, too. 24 MR. : Okay. So, is it same 25 unit, same room, same -- EFTA00119071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Same. 2 MR. : -- same procedures? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. The one thing that 5 I've learned more recently is, though, during 6 psychological observation, or I guess I should 7 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as 8 psychological observation, is the inmate 9 allowed to have attorney visits? 10 MR. : If they are on that watch, 11 no. 12 MR. : What about during 13 psychological observation? 14 MR. : I think it would be the same 15 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 16 I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because 17 typically, when they are on that, we don't have 18 it. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if 20 either yourself or anyone at the institution 21 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 22 Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed 23 from either psychological observation or 24 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 25 MR. : They will always call. I EFTA00119072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 mean, they would. There was always a number 2 subject, whether it was to place him in general 3 population. So, I don't, you know, recall 4 MR. : Do you remember ever 5 being called by a judge? 6 MR. : No, I don't. I don't 7 recall. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Speaking with a judge. 10 MR. : All right. Because that 11 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 12 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 13 from one or the other. 14 MR. : No. Judges wouldn't 15 typically call for that. 16 MR. : But the attorneys 17 frequently would? 18 MR. : Yeah, frequently, they 19 would, you know, call our legal department, 20 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 21 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 22 here? And just not him, if there was any type 23 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 24 type of requests you get from the attorney. 25 MR. : Okay. And do you know if EFTA00119073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 those attorneys were made, though, when he was 2 on either suicide watch or psychological 3 observations? 4 MR. : I don't recall that. 5 MR. : You don't recall. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Sure. That's fine. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Do you know - I know you 10 said that, and you didn't think that inmates 11 typically could - but do you know if Mr. 12 Epstein visited with his attorneys during that 13 time, between the 23rd and the 30th of -- 14 MR. : I don't know 15 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 16 *00:43:28)? 17 MR. : -- if he was on that status, 18 then he would not have been -- 19 MR. : You don't believe so? 20 MR. : I don't believe so. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : No. I don't believe so. 23 MR. : No problem. All right. 24 So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind 25 initial and dating that? EFTA00119074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay, , you can 3 file that accordingly. This one just goes back 4 to that first initial timeline, that looked 5 like it may have been a little messed up. The 6 initial email from you, it looks like it's a 7 psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released 8 on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, 9 starting at 8:20 a.m. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : He was there all day. I 12 will send the attorney log next." And then, 13 Mr. response was, "The timeline we 14 sent DOJ says 7/29. Where did we get that 15 date?" So, are we confident that he stayed 16 until the 30th? 17 MR. : He stayed until the 30th. 18 MR. : Okay. So, was this just 19 an incorrect -- 20 MR. : I think that was a typo. 21 MR. : -- okay. Oh, sorry. Do 22 you mind initial and dating? 23 MR. : Well, this answers your 24 previous question. 25 MR. : What's that? EFTA00119075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : About being on psych ops and 2 seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after 3 he got off. 4 MR. : Well, it says that he had 5 an attorney visit -- 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- starting at 8:20 a.m., 8 but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that 9 time. 10 MR. : Right. Oh, because he was 11 released on July 30th. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, just saying, like, 15 yeah, he was released and 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- he was visiting with 18 his attorneys. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And that's something 21 we've had a little bit of a conflicting 22 information. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : We've heard that he 25 actually did have attorney visits during that EFTA00119076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 time. And we've heard that he didn't. So, 2 that's why I was wondering if you would be able 3 to clear that up at all, but you're not 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- to your recollection 6 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : -- he wouldn't have? 9 MR. : Yeah. Typically, if you are 10 on that, you're not going to have an attorney 11 visit. 12 MR. : And just talking to 13 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 14 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 15 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 16 that right. But do you think that maybe they 17 were mistaken? 18 MR. : I'm just going from my 19 experience, like any other of the inmates that 20 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 21 attorney visit. 22 MR. : Okay. Now, this, 23 speaking of psychology, that's the next point. 24 Let me just make sure that all the information 25 is on that incident. So, as far as EFTA00119077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is -. 2 How do you think it's -? 3 MR. : Tartaglione. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. So, did you have 7 any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as 8 Epstein's cellmate? 9 MR. : We did. 10 MR. : Okay. And how was that 11 selection made? 12 MR. : So, we weren't able to get a 13 whole lot of people, you know, think that how 14 we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was 15 a white male. Another high-profile case. So, 16 and he is not, you know, there is this 17 misconception that he was a big hulking 18 bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something 19 pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and 20 frame. So, we said that would have been an 21 appropriate cellmate for him. 22 MR. : And who made the 23 decision? 24 MR. : To put them together? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I did. 2 MR. : Okay. Was it in 3 coordination with both the captain, as well as 4 Mr. 5 MR. : Everyone - yeah - would 6 discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, 1 7 sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're 8 going to make him his cellmate, and what was 9 the reasoning. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- in talking with the 13 captain, his recollection was that he brought 14 the three names, you discussed it with Mr. 15 , he was present for that discussion, and 16 Mr. is the only one who said, I want 17 Tartaglione, put him with Tartaglione. Do you 18 recall it to be that way, or do you recall it 19 to be -? 20 MR. : Which -? Well, are we 21 talking about Tartaglione? 22 MR. : Oh, did that happen with 23 Reyes? 24 MR. : Well, Reyes and - what do 25 you call it? - Reyes and, there were two names. EFTA00119079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted 2 to see the names. So, I don't know who they 3 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 4 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 5 the two inmates to the director's office. 6 (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 7 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 8 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 9 about as far as if we had to choose between who 10 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 11 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 12 13 MR. : Efrain Reyes? 14 MR. : -- Reyes, that Reyes would 15 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 16 find anybody. 17 MR. : Okay. So -- 18 MR. : And then, they went up, and 19 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 20 MR. : Okay. So, Reyes was when 21 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 22 selection, but for -- 23 MR. : Tartaglione. 24 MR. : Tartaglione, that was 25 you? EFTA00119080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : I mean, it was in 2 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, 3 the powers that be that this is who we're going 4 to be, and it came back and said, you know, 5 we're good for that. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you know what 7 Tartaglione was in for? 8 MR. : He had - I know it was a big 9 drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff 10 like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible 11 *00:48:45) -- 12 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 13 MR. : -- huh? 14 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 15 MR. : Some kind of narcotics. So, 16 he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was 17 murder involved, too. 18 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 19 MR. : But he was a high-profile 20 case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there 21 that were trying to get in there, but you know, 22 they would have probably harmed him. I had 23 another pedophile in there, and everybody in 24 the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not 25 taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we EFTA00119081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 can't just arbitrarily force another inmate 2 into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was, 3 you know, the best -- 4 MR. HAYES: The other inmates 5 MR. : -- inmates -. 6 MR. HAYES: -- would not accept Epstein, 7 nor would not accept a pedophile. 8 MR. : They weren't going to -. 9 They just weren't going to stab Epstein 10 *00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I 11 mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all 12 right, I'm going to force you to take this, and 13 then something happens to him, and then -. 14 MR. : So, someone actually 15 spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was 16 willing to do it? 17 MR. : And I'm not sure on there - 18 who spoke to him, but I don't know. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : It might have been. But I 21 know we said we were going to put him in, and 22 this is, this is what -. And he didn't have 23 any issues. 24 MR. : Okay. And if someone did 25 speak with him, who would that have been? EFTA00119082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Would that have been captain? 2 MR. : It might have been the 3 captain. Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02). 4 But it probably would have been the captain, 5 but - 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- you know, typically, you 8 know, we're going to make a move, and we're 9 putting somebody in there, we're not going to, 10 you know, sit down and consult with an inmate, 11 if that's okay with you. I mean 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : -- we just have a feel of 14 the unit -- 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : -- that, who is appropriate 17 to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a 18 drug dealer in there with him. So, you know, 19 typically, another high-profile inmate would be 20 appropriate. 21 MR. : Okay. Now, do you have 22 any reason to believe that Tartaglione did, in 23 fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd? 24 MR. : Again—, I can't speculate on 25 that. EFTA00119083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Sure. Just because 2 MR. : I mean -. 3 MR. : -- it would be pure 4 speculation, if you did? 5 MR. : Yeah. It would be. I would 6 be speculating on that. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : I can't -. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And you just prefer not 12 to do that? 13 MR. : Yeah. I don't want to 14 speculate. 15 MR. : Okay. Now, so, our 16 assessment from other people has been that -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Tartaglione was trying 19 to beat his case 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- and that he had every 22 reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And 23 that Tartaglione was actually the person who 24 notified the guards that Epstein was in need of 25 help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct EFTA00119084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 assessment? 2 MR. HAYES: Tartaglione wasn't in the cell 3 at the time. 4 MR. : So -- 5 MR. : On July 23rd, he was. 6 MR. : -- he was. So, he -- 7 MR. HAYES: He was. Oh, I 8 MR. : -- yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: -- yeah, right. 10 MR. : Yeah. So, here's how I'm 11 going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we 12 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't 13 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 14 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 15 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 16 and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't 17 speculate on, you know, whether he would do 18 something, or he wouldn't do something. So, 19 that was, you know, my dealings with 20 Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus, 21 you know, his case. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : And the request from his 24 attorneys. 25 MR. : Okay. So, following EFTA00119085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein's time on suicide watch and 2 psychological observation, was he placed back 3 in the SHU? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. So, and I 6 apologize to read all these, but this is just 7 again - we're not going to through them one by 8 one, but just to show what it is that we have 9 here. So, this one says it's from an 10 to Did I get this from you? 11 I think this is something that forwarded on. 12 MR. HAYES: She say even gave your own 13 drinking -- 14 MR. : This one says, "Can you 15 send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide 16 attempt. Thanks." That was from III 17 it looks like, sent it up. So, 18 said, "I need this ASAP." And it 19 says, "Here are his notes." 20 MR. : So, he said (Phonetic 21 Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is 22 requesting it. 23 MR. : Okay. So, the region 24 wanted this? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. : So, this, is this what 2 this is? Is this the psychology file of 3 Epstein? 4 MR. : Those are clinical notes. 5 MR. : So, these are all 6 clinical notes -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- here? 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Would this have been, 11 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 12 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it 13 looks like these are clinical notes from the 14 day he got there 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- up until July 31st. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : I wonder why. Why would 19 they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 20 MR. : You said -- 21 MR. : Not August. 22 MR. : -- they sent from where? 23 MR. : Well, it -- 24 MR. : From -? 25 MR. : -- started from the day EFTA00119087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July 2 8th, 2019. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : To July 31st, 2019. 5 MR. : It's any encounter you have 6 with him. Any medical -- 7 MR. : So, did they not -- 8 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 9 *00:53:53). 10 MR. : -- have any encounters 11 after July 31st, 2019? 12 MR. HAYES: Do you know? 13 MR. : No. I am not aware of that 14 because it would only - they would only 15 annotate if they had encounters with him. 16 MR. : Okay. So, you are 17 unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any 18 kind of, any psychology had any interactions 19 with him? 20 MR. : No. If it's not in the BEMR 21 notes, and that, I guess they didn't have any. 22 MR. : So, you would assume that 23 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- there wouldn't be? EFTA00119088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know 2 why that would be? 3 MR. : Hold on. If an inmate is 4 cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them 5 about it - but most inmates didn't, once you 6 are cleared off of suicide watch, they have 7 other things that they do. You can come down 8 and they give you some (Indiscernible 9 *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they 10 have other types of therapy, but it doesn't 11 necessarily have to be entered in as a medical 12 encounter. 13 MR. : Okay. So, this is, so, 14 psychology could have been still meeting with 15 them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 16 MR. : Yeah. You - I mean - you 17 see them, and you can just, like, if you have 18 patients, you will go, how is everything going? 19 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm 20 okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a 21 medical encounter. 22 MR. : Okay. So, your 23 involvement with this, being that he came off 24 of psychological observation on July 30th, 25 should psychology had interacted with him more EFTA00119089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 in that type of setting, where they would have 2 been writing clinical notes? Or do you 3 MR. : No. I think they -- 4 MR. : -- or -? 5 MR. : -- did everything. Because 6 they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on 7 the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive 8 whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- attempted to commit 11 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but 12 if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I 13 wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do 14 it, that's their assessment of it. 15 MR. : Right. No. I guess what 16 I'm saying is that, I know you're not a 17 psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that 18 they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- do you think that they 21 should have continued at least checking with 22 him, or no? 23 MR. : Well, they probably did. 24 mean, when -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 MR. : -- you make your SHU rounds. 2 You know, seeing him in other parts of the 3 institution. So, and you would have to ask 4 them. But there were probably encounters with 5 him. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But that didn't require -- 8 MR. HAYES: A report. 9 MR. : -- a report, and a medical 10 annotation in there. 11 MR. : Okay. So, this next 12 email, it talks about, it says, "Warden 13 ," and this is from , and 14 again -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- is he the coordinator? 17 Or, who is he? 18 MR. : Oh. 19 MR. : Oh, here it is. National 20 suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : It says, "Thank you for 23 supporting our scheduling of the psychological 24 reconstructive for inmate Epstein. I will be 25 joined by , (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00119091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 *00:56:44) Correction Service Administration of 2 the Northeast Region. So, do you know if that 3 was ever completed? The actual suicide 4 reconstruction. 5 MR. : They might have, but nobody 6 talked to me. 7 MR. : Okay. They didn't talk 8 to you? 9 MR. : Nah. 10 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. And 11 then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks 12 like a template is attached here. 13 "(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide 14 prevention program, suicide reconstruction 15 materials." 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Would have you been the 18 one that would have gathered these things for 19 him? 20 MR. : No. You probably -. 21 Typically, when this happens, this comes from, 22 when I used to do them, I would make contact 23 with someone in the institution, to get it. 24 So, you might -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- have the executive 2 assistant -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. get the information. 5 MR. : So, it says, "I am 6 attaching a list of materials we use to 7 complete the reconstruction. We routinely take 8 these documents with us, so please ensure that 9 a copy of any documents you also need." 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : It says, "Your assistance 12 in gathering these documents, appreciate it, 13 will be helpful." So, you would just, you 14 would provide that to, like, III or 15 someone? 16 MR. : Yeah. We tell the exec, 17 hey, I need you to gather this information, and 18 it might not be . It could be the 19 chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do 20 it. 21 MR. : Okay. But as far as you 22 know, was that completed? Did he show up and 23 do that? 24 MR. : I wasn't at the institution. 25 MR. : Oh, okay. EFTA00119093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I -- 2 MR. : So, you 3 MR. : I was removed from the 4 institution. 5 MR. : -- when were you removed 6 from the institution? 7 MR. : Monday. 8 MR. : Monday, August 12th? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. That's what I was 11 kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't 12 clear with my question. I was wondering if 13 something happened to you after this, that you 14 were removed and no longer 15 MR. : No. They just told me, go 16 report to the region. 17 MR. : -- all right. So, as of 18 Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer 19 at the MCC? 20 MR. : I was no longer at the MCC. 21 MR. : And did you ever go back 22 after that? 23 MR. : No, I didn't. 24 MR. : Okay. So, that was 25 Okay. EFTA00119094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 MR. : Well, I did today, to go 2 park. 3 MR. : Okay. But after this 4 instance, and you were not really involved 5 after that, then? 6 MR. : That was it. I didn't have 7 any -. 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. You check in today. 9 Did you just say? 10 MR. : No, I had to park a vehicle, 11 because I had to -. I had the government 12 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I 13 parked there, and took the train out, 14 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 15 MR. : I think when we started, and 16 asked when you started at the regional 17 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 18 MR. : So, the problem is, and he 19 was talking about job title. My job title 20 still remained the same. 21 MR. : As warden? 22 MR. : As the warden in New York, 23 and it wasn't removed until 2020. 24 MR. : Okay. Well, now, but as of 25 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the EFTA00119095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 region? 2 MR. : Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp. 3 *00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I 4 had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office. 5 And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you 6 know, we're signing you up to the regional 7 office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why 8 I was being removed. And I was just told to go 9 up there. So, that's what transpired. 10 MR. : Was there another warden in 11 place? 12 MR. : They brought another one in. 13 MR. : So, there was two people with 14 the title of warden, at that point? 15 MR. : Well, they had Mr. 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and 17 (Phonetic Sp. *01:00:01). She is. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : All right. So, if you 20 don't mind, just initialing and dating that. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : We'll get that out of 23 your way. So, this looks like this answers our 24 question. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MR. : So, this is an email from 2 AW to yourself. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And it just says, "FYI, 5 from Dr. , regarding her last interaction 6 with Epstein, prior to her departure on 7 Thursday." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Dr. was the 10 psychologist at MCC? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Correct? 13 MR. : She was the chief 14 psychologist. 15 MR. : Okay. Great. And it 16 says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on 17 Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : -- 2019. "He was getting 20 ready to meet with his attorneys for the day, 21 so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU 22 meeting. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : He had a cellmate at the 25 time, with whom I saw him interact with. He EFTA00119097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 did not report any medical, or any mental 2 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal 3 thoughts or intention. He was asking the 4 writer to go to general population and was 5 making requests for various leads he had at the 6 time. He wanted social calls without them 7 being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he 8 had left in the suicide watch area. 9 His mood was not depressed or anxious. 10 There were no signs of stress. He had planned 11 on meeting with his attorneys to work on his 12 legal situation." So, there is that. And 13 then, there is also, I don't know if this was 14 attached. , I don't know how this was 15 printed, but it also looks like all the 16 contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month. 17 Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. 18 And after the -". It does say that there was a 19 contact that looks like, on the 31st. 20 MR. HAYES: What does he mean by 21 "contact"? 22 MR. : A psychology contact. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 MR. : And then, here's one, 25 8/1/2019, Dr. , SRA, was -- EFTA00119098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- being conducted. What is SRA? Do you know? MR. : It's a seg group. Segregation review. MR. HAYES: Oh. MR. : So, it says -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- it says, "Court sent a form. Suicidal tendencies." MR. : No. That must be a psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. MR. : Okay. And it says, "On August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicidalitve ally, friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive Jewish against his religion, still denied knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when he was discovered with a string loosely tied around his neck. Said his incident report for self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going back to his normal life." And again, it say that the 8/8/ 2019 EFTA00119099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was with Dr. , what I just -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- read. And on 4 8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible 5 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible 6 *01:02:40). 7 MR. : Yeah. You don't have to 8 always. 9 MR. : So, yeah, then maybe 10 those weren't required. 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Yeah, do you mind, maybe 13 the bottom on this one? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : That wasn't attached to the 16 email. That was just a separate document. 17 MR. : Oh, that's a separate 18 document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to 19 psychology? All right. And this is the last 20 one to cover what psychology. This was an 21 email that was sent out by a 22 To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation 23 update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it 24 says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 25 psych observation and needs to housed with an EFTA00119100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 appropriate cellmate." 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. -: , and it just 4 says everyone who is attached to this sent, 5 this was sent to. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Is this something that 8 they normally do, after someone comes off of 9 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 10 send this out to everyone? Or was it a special 11 case for this? 12 MR. : No. It's typical. 13 MR. : That's typical? 14 MR. : Typical. Because you have 15 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 16 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 17 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 18 their units. In his case, he was going back to 19 the Special Housing Unit. 20 MR. : Okay. Great. Do you 21 mind just initial and dating that? And that 22 was - is it their job to determine if a 23 cellmate has to be housed with another 24 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed 25 with another inmate. EFTA00119101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : Well, typically, I mean, 2 it's just - if there's nothing in policy that 3 sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional 4 setting, if somebody has been on, you know, 5 attempted suicide, or attempted to self- 6 mutilation, you usually put them in with 7 someone. 8 MR. : Okay. So, were you or 9 your staff involved with the decision to have 10 Epstein removed from suicide watch or 11 psychological observation? 12 MR. : Psychology makes the 13 determination that the individual is, you know, 14 no longer suicidale. This is for any inmate. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : Is no longer suicidal. And 17 there is no reason for him to be on suicide 18 watch. So, they either get released wherever 19 they came from, whether it was the general 20 population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : So, on background on 22 that. So, one of the individuals in psychology 23 department 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- who would meet with EFTA00119102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, 2 one of the steps down with Dr. , as well 3 as AW 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And I was informed that 6 that is kind of pretty routine, that that is 7 conducted in coordination with executive staff 8 members. Is that -- 9 MR. : Right. That is. 10 MR. : -- so, that's where 11 want to make sure that I'm understanding -- 12 MR. : We do. 13 MR. : -- what you are saying. 14 MR. : But we also do, we have what 15 we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in 16 our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly 17 meeting, and if there are any issues, that's 18 brought up in the meeting. 19 MR. : Okay. So, is it solely, 20 though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes 21 from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, 22 and again, psych observation back to a housing 23 unit? Is that their call, or can, does the 24 executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside 25 of psychology, have an influence on that? EFTA00119103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 MR. : Psychology are the subject 2 matter experts. They are the doctors. They 3 release someone off of suicide watch. I can't 4 - if an individual is on suicide watch - I 5 can't turn around and come in there, and say, 6 take him off. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : I'm not a trained 9 psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on 10 there. But then, you know, after hours, or if 11 it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, 12 any staff member could put him on there. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : But as far as taking him 15 off, you have to have a medical reason, as far 16 as them coming off. 17 MR. : So, in that interview 18 with that individual, they said the decision 19 was discussed with AW and that 20 individual concurred with that decision. If 21 they didn't concur, though, would that matter 22 to them? 23 MR. : What do you mean, if the AW 24 didn't concur with it? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MR. : I mean, I don't want to use 2 the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're 3 keeping, they're keeping us informed, saying, 4 okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. 5 Now, let's say I come in and interject and say, 6 no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning 7 for putting him on there? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : What medical degree do I 10 have to justify keeping an individual on 11 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 12 other way. I decide to turn around and do 13 something like that, I would be having a 14 conversation with you about something else. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, is it more to keep 20 you apprise 21 MR. : To keep us apprised -- 22 MR. : -- if anything else: 23 MR. you know, and saying, 24 hey, this is the way we're removing an 25 individual, and we move forward. I mean, EFTA00119105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 obviously, we will have questions. You know, 2 if we had questions. 3 MR. HAYES: Guys, I want to go for a 4 second. All right? 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. HAYES: I got to go pee. 7 MR. : Do you want us to 88 8 continue or wait? 9 MR. HAYES: No, just stay by me. Oh, 10 don't continue. I'll be right back. 11 MR. : Absolutely. I'm going to 12 pause this recording then. It is currently 13 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 14 This is Special Agent , and I 15 am pausing the recording. 16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 17 off the record and back on the record). 18 MR. : All right. The recorder 19 is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, 20 short break. Mr. , just reminding you 21 that you are under oath. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : All right. Sorry. 24 Address these. 25 MR. : Oh. EFTA00119106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MR. : All right. So, the last 2 that we discussed was that psychology said that 3 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 4 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 5 sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes 6 placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made 7 at a higher level than yourself? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And who made that 10 decision? 11 MR. : I don't know. Listen. 12 know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, 13 the two inmates that, that would kind of 14 figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent 15 those names to the director's office. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And it was was 18 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 19 told me that they had to run it up to the 20 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 21 in the department. And it got back, and my 22 boss said that, too, you know, that's a good 23 choice. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And that's Mr. 2 again? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Great. But it was 5 based upon a list that you provided? 6 MR. : Yeah. There were some 7 names. Because I - fast forward - I got a 8 call, and we were gearing towards getting him 9 out to general population. 10 MR. : Oh, so, you wanted 11 Epstein to actually be in general pop? 12 MR. : I didn't want -. That's 13 what typically happens. You know 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : -- you don't want an inmate 16 in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot 17 of high-profile individuals that come in the 18 institution. You know, we do our intelligence 19 gathering, to see, okay, what would be an 20 appropriate unit for them to be in? And we 21 place them. And then, we monitor them. If, 22 you know, and that is how we move them into 23 general population. I get a call saying, hold 24 up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. 25 MR. : And who called you? EFTA00119108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. HAYES: Did he qualify as a pedophile? 2 MR. : I don't -. I didn't -. 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. 4 MR. : Read. But that's -. We 5 didn't -- 6 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 7 MR. : -- you know, so that's not 8 feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, 9 get a call, and they said hold up on that. He 10 needs to stay where he's at. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : So. 13 MR. : And I'm sorry. Who was 14 it that called you to say stay? 15 MR. : Mr. . And then, 16 that's when I had to send up the names. I 17 guess he had gotten some from the department. 18 I don't know who he talked to in the 19 department. 20 MR. : Oh, so, coming out of 21 psych observation, you were looking to send him 22 back to general pop. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Or not back to. Into. 25 MR. : When he first came in, the EFTA00119109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whole process was 2 MR. : Oh, I see. 3 MR. : -- to get him out to general 4 population. 5 MR. : I gotcha. So, back, you 6 are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 7 MR. : Yeah, we're talking about -- 8 MR. : -- that timeframe. 9 MR. : -- the whole thing, and 10 then, even, you know, coming out of psych 11 observations when he got in, the plan was still 12 to get him into general population. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : I mean, we had the attorneys 15 contacting our legal, why can't he be in 16 general population? 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, and then, that is when I 19 got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't 20 know who he talked to in the department - but 21 it was, like, hold on. 22 MR. : And on that note, I guess 23 this would be a good time to talk about this. 24 Being that it was ultimately decided that he go 25 into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, EFTA00119110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 was it discussed at all that he be placed on 2 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs 3 inmates? 4 MR. : So, here's the problems with 5 Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and 6 there's SAMS things in there. The amount of 7 attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't 8 have those attorneys coming up to that unit 9 every day, and, you know, breaching the 10 security of it, and then, tying up the movement 11 in there, because when an attorney comes in 12 there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's 13 planned, and they are in there. Epstein's 14 attorneys were coming in early in the morning, 15 and weren't leaving until late at night. And 16 it was about four or five of them. So -- 17 MR. HAYES: And guess who's paying his 18 bill? 19 MR. : -- right. That's not an 20 appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit 21 is for. 22 MR. : Now, what about, like, 23 if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. 24 *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels 25 that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with EFTA00119111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 that, or did they have attorneys visiting them 2 or no? 3 MR. : They did, but it wasn't to 4 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 5 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 6 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 7 trial, then they would - you would see them 8 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one 9 thee* attorneys, they were in there from the 10 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 11 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 12 the rooms. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. So -- 14 MR. : So. 15 MR. : -- the primary reason why 16 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 17 attorney visits? 18 MR. : Well, not the attorney 19 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And he's not a SAMs inmate. 22 And then -. 23 MR. HAYES: What's a SANS unit? 24 MR. : Special Administrative 25 Measures. That means, you know, strict EFTA00119112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 communication. And there's a lot that goes on 2 with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to 3 be up there. 4 MR. : Now, were some of those 5 other high-profile inmates, though, such as El 6 Chapo, and who were some of the people that 7 were in there? 8 MR. : Yeah. The terrorists up 9 there. 10 MR. : But the non-terrorists. 11 Meaning, the people that There was a few 12 MR. : Well, you had SchulteShety 13 (Phonetic Sp. *01:13:05), but he was in for 14 espionage, and had a SAMs on him. So, he -- 15 MR. : Now, did El Chapo have a 16 SAMs on him? 17 MR. : -- he had -. No. His 18 status was based on, and I know there was 19 (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : -- and stuff. So, he was a 22 high profile person that had escaped from 23 another prison before -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- so, that was an EFTA00119113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 appropriate place to place him. 2 MR. : I see. 3 MR. : Schulte£h lty was in general 4 population, and a SRNs was placed on him by his 5 attorney 6 MR. HAYES: What was the other name again? 7 MR. SchulteSholty. And he 8 was placed up there. 9 MR. HAYES: Can I ask you 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: -- a totally irrelevant 12 question? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. HAYES: What was El Chapo like? 15 MR. : Just like any other inmate. 16 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 17 MR. : Yeah. Just like any other 18 inmate. 19 MR. HAYES: Polite? 20 MR. : Polite. You know, no 21 problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit 22 to be housing inmate Epstein. 23 MR. : Now, did you even have 24 the authority to place him in Ten South, if you 25 wanted to? EFTA00119114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : I mean, I could have, but I 2 would have had to have, you know, some 3 justification as to why I'm, I'm putting him up 4 there. And there would have been push back 5 from his attorneys. 6 MR. : Okay. Because some 7 people had mentioned that, saying the warden 8 doesn't even have the ability to do that. That 9 comes from a higher level. 10 MR. : I mean -- 11 MR. : Is that -- 12 MR. : -- in essence -- 13 MR. accurate, or -? 14 MR. in essence, it does 15 because I would have had to explain and justify 16 why, you know, certain inmates with certain 17 crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing 18 him? 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And then, the fact that, you 21 know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs 22 access to his attorneys, that unit is just too 23 restrictive for that. 24 MR. : Now - and this is a total 25 Monday morning quarterback -- EFTA00119115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- do you stand by the 3 decision that he would be in Nine South, or do 4 you think he should have been in Ten South, or 5 what are your thoughts on that? 6 MR. : I think he was appropriately 7 placed. 8 MR. : Okay. So, Nine South -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- was the -- 11 MR. : That was the appropriate -- 12 MR. : -- appropriate place for 13 him? 14 MR. : -- place for him. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Quick question. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Do you recall if there were 19 inmates in Ten South during that time? 20 MR. : Where? 21 MR. : In -- 22 MR. : Yes, there were. 23 MR. : -- yeah. Do you know who 24 those inmates were? 25 MR. : El Chapo had left. I got EFTA00119116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the one that ran the call with people in 2 Brooklyn. He was there. 3 MR. HAYES: What was his name? 4 MR. : I forget. 5 MR. HAYES: What did he do? What was he 6 in there for? 7 MR. : That's the one that killed 8 the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran 9 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah. 10 MR. : -- the vehicle into them. 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah, and then the guy kicked 12 the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). 15 MR. : He was there. I remember 16 SchulteSholty. There was another guy that was, 17 it had something to do with Osama Bin Laden. 18 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Who else? We had a younger 20 terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it 21 was -. They were all terrorists in, on 22 espionage charges. 23 MR. : All right. So, this is 24 along what we were just discussing. It says 25 that, this is from an , who's just EFTA00119117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a supervisory staff attorney. MR. : Right. MR. : What does this CLC stand for? MR. : It's the Combined -. He, he, hHe's the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn and New York. MR. : Okay. MR. : At the time. MR. : So, he's kind of, like, the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York? MR. : Yeah. He was the supervisory attorney. So -- MR. : Okay. MR. he was in charge. MR. : All right. So, this was to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th, 2019. It says, "Warden, per our conversation, I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday, August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his request for access to water in attorney conference." MR. : Right. MR. : "Attorney Mariel Colon," so, M-A-R-I-E-L. Next word, C-O-L-O-N. "With EFTA00119118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had 2 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 3 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 4 MR. : Cadre is the camp. 5 MR. : Is that low level? 6 MR. : It's like our lower security 7 inmates. Yeah. 8 MR. : So, you have an actual 9 camp at the MCC? 10 MR. : It's low security inmates. 11 But remember, they are designated. So, we 12 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 13 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 14 inmates together. 15 MR. : Okay. It says, "I 16 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 17 inmate. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : "Later that day, but 20 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 21 attorney Michael Miller on the phone. He had 22 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 23 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 24 not, based on his prior suicide 25 attempt/gesture." EFTA00119119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of 2 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 3 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 6 charging him $2,000 an hour. 7 MR. : "He acknowledged that he 8 understood. To my recollection, neither 9 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 10 watch or psychological observation during 11 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 12 if you need any further information." Now, was 13 this just a request to any contact that he had 14 with his attorneys? 15 MR. : He was just keeping me 16 informed because the attorneys were calling 17 every day, with different types of requests. 18 MR. : But this was the day, 19 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 20 would -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- he's talking about 23 context, just literally the previous day -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- that he was looking EFTA00119120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for different housing type arrangements. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : But all right. If -. 4 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 5 MR. : Excuse me? 6 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 7 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 8 MR. : Oh. Now, this answers 9 our question from before. So, this actually 10 says, it's from you to Mr. , it says 11 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 12 were looking at. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, it looks like July 15 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 16 again, all these -- 17 MR. : These are the attorney 18 assignment. 19 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 20 *01:18:43). 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. So, that does now 23 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 24 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : Or the body. Okay. 2 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 3 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 4 MR. : We're coming to - hey - 5 we're almost halfway through. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 8 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 9 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 10 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 11 tomorrow's. 12 MR. : Well. 13 MR. : Now, you've already 14 answered this, but did you work at the MCC on 15 August 9th? 16 MR. : For that -- 17 MR. : 2019. 18 MR. : -- was Friday. Friday, I 19 was off. 20 MR. : What about on August 21 10th, 2019? 22 MR. : 10th was a Saturday -- 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : I was, I worked on 25 Saturday. EFTA00119122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : All right. But did you 2 work in response to this? 3 MR. : No. I had to respond, if 4 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- yeah, I had to respond if 7 I came in. 8 MR. : Okay. So, but you 9 weren't scheduled to work? 10 MR. : No. I wasn't scheduled to 11 work. 12 MR. : All right. This is just 13 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 14 case you need to reference it - these are 15 emails that were from you to Mr. , with 16 the staff roster. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And the reason I'm using 19 these is because these were literally sent on 20 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 21 rely on these 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- based upon being so 24 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 25 It's showing who was working that day. And EFTA00119123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, 2 showing who was -- 3 MR. : This is a correctional 4 roster. 5 MR. : -- correct. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Correct. This is a 8 correctional roster. Right. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : So, who was, basically I 11 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 12 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 13 aside from correctional? 14 MR. : Well, the correctional 15 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 16 roster. 17 MR. : Like, R&D wouldn't do 18 anything like that? 19 MR. : No. Because their staff are 20 already assigned to where they are working at. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. And they have rosters 23 that show where everyone is working at. But 24 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 25 MR. : Okay. So, I'm going to EFTA00119124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 have you just initial and date. I'm going to 2 place this, again, here, just in case we need 3 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 4 need to look at who was working, and what 5 position -- 6 MR. : There's two on there. 7 MR. : -- and what. Yes, 8 please. So, this one would be for the August 9 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 10 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 11 not attached to your email. Right? 12 MR. : Yeah. You are right. 13 MR. : So, the August 9th one 14 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Yeah. So, we had to pull 17 that from -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- just for full 20 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 21 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 22 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 23 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 24 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 25 this requirement? EFTA00119125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : That they were notified? 2 MR. : So, how -. So, Dr. 3 or Mrs. sent out that email, saying -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- Epstein is required to 6 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who was required to make 9 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 10 aware o