DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00126647 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00126648 3 1 : All right. The recorder 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, June 15, 2021, and 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 4 and I am a Senior Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 7 And these are my credentials. 8 : Okay. 9 : This interview with 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 11 - is it 12 : Yes. 13 • , is being 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jersey. 21 Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 and This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last EFTA00126649 4 1 name? To start, again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 2 Special Agent, 3 4 : This is DOJ Special Agent 5 6 : This is BOP employee, 7 8 : All right. Thank you, 9 everyone. And this is an official DOJ 10 investigation surrounding the circumstances of 11 Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 : Yes. 16 : Great. We're just going 17 to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. 18 I'm going to read it for the record. It says, 19 United States Department of Justice Office of 20 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 21 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 22 a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to 23 provide information as part of an investigation 24 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00126650 5 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure and security failure. This 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 11 It says, " I understand the Warnings and 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 19 : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 20 copy of this. 21 : This isn't what I wanted. 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 24 of the Inspector General Special Agent. And I 25 am going to print my name. do you EFTA00126651 6 1 mind just printing your name where it says 2 Employee's Name? Sorry. 3 : All right. 4 : Right below it. 5 : Thank you, sir. And 6 Special Agent can you sign that as the 7 witness? 8 : Yes. This is Special Agent 9 I have signed as a witness. 10 : Thank you, sir. Can you 11 hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG 12 form? 13 : Yes. 14 : Great. Before starting, 15 I would like you place you under oath. Can you 16 just raise your right hand? , do you 17 swear to tell the truth and nothing but the 18 truth during this interview? 19 : I do. 20 : Thank you, sir. Can you 21 just show me your credentials, for the record, 22 to make sure that -- 23 : Here you go, sir. 24 : -- all right. For the 25 record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of EFTA00126652 7 1 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials 2 of . It says that he is the 3 Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in 4 New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. 5 Thank you, sir. 6 : Okay. 7 : All right. And what is 8 your current home address? 9 -' 10 11 : Thank you. And what is 12 your current cell phone number? 13 : It is 14 : And what is your highest 15 level of education? 16 : I have three years of 17 college. 18 : And where did you go to 19 college? 20 : I went to - I actually have 21 my Associates Degree at Northwestern State 22 University. 23 : And where is that 24 located? 25 : That's going to be in EFTA00126653 8 1 Natchitoches, Louisiana. 2 : Great. And what was that 3 Associate's degree in? 4 : It was in Social Work. 5 : Okay. Great. And then, 6 what year? 7 : I believe it was 2012 or '13. 8 : Great. Thanks. Did you 9 have any employment prior to the BOP? 10 : Yes. I had worked almost two 11 years for the Colorado Department of 12 Corrections. 13 : Okay. 14 : As a Correctional Officer. 15 And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten 16 years - well, nine years, 11 months in the 17 United States Army. 18 : Awesome. Thanks for your 19 service. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : When did you work as a 22 Correctional Officer for two years? 23 : In Colorado? 24 : Yes. 25 : I believe the dates were from EFTA00126654 9 1 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2 2005. 3 : Okay. Great. And then, 4 you said you were in the - did you say the 5 Army? 6 : Yes. 7 : And what was your rank in 8 the Army? 9 : I was a Sergeant. 10 : Honorable discharge? 11 : Yes. 12 : When you left, what was 13 your primary responsibility? 14 : Basically, at that time, I 15 was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical 16 surveyor. 17 : Okay. And what was that? 18 Where did you say? 19 : Sir? 20 21 22 -- 23 : The topographical? : It's a topographical surveyor : Oh, a surveyor. 24 : -- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) 25 surveyor. Right. EFTA00126655 10 1 : Okay. Perfect. And 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-5? 3 E-5. 4 : E-5. All right. When 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 Prisons? 7 : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 8 11/27/2005. 9 : Great. And when did you 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 : I believe it was March of 13 2006. 14 : Okay. We don't have to 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 : Right. I started as a five, 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline EFTA00126656 11 1 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. 2 : All right. Great. And 3 is it correct that you used to work at the MCC 4 in New York City? 5 : That is correct. 6 : All right. And what were 7 your positions when you were at the MCC? 8 : MCC, I was the Captain. 9 : Okay. And from what 10 dates were you the Captain? 11 : I was the Captain from 12 September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all 13 the way until June 25 of 2020. 14 : Okay. Great. And then, 15 was that your first assignment as a Captain? 16 : No. That was my second. 17 : What was your first 18 assignment as a Captain? 19 : My first assignment as a 20 Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC 21 Brooklyn. 22 : Okay. And then you got 23 promoted, and went to MCC? 24 : Yes. Yes. 25 : And what does the MCC EFTA00126657 12 1 stand for? 2 3 Center. 4 The Metropolitan Correctional : Perfect. And located at 5 150 Park Row, New York, New York? 6 : That is correct. 7 : Thank you, sir. As a 8 Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor 9 when you were at the MCC? 10 : It would be, at that point, 11 at that time, we was transitioning. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, I would, normally, I 14 would answer to two people, which would be the 15 AW of Custody, which, at that time, was 16 17 : Okay. 18 : However, we was transitioning 19 when that incident happened. It was 20 was the AW over Custody at that time. 21 : All right. So, when you 22 are talking about that time, are you talking 23 about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00126658 13 1 of was still the AW in 2 charge of Custody at that time? 3 : No. 4 : She was not? Okay. 5 : No. Basically, what it was 6 again - with the areas of responsibility had 7 changed, prior -- 8 : Okay. 9 to this incident. So, 10 that week, Ms. was going to be 11 even though hers responsibilities had changed 12 as the AW over Custody, and Warden 13 had appointed - or instructed - 14 that would then take over the 15 responsibilities. But however, she was 16 supposed to go on annual leave. 17 18 19 : Okay. : So, at that time, Ms. was actually there, as far as, 20 she was still in that capacity when the 21 incident happened. 22 : Okay. 23 : However, again, the previous 24 question that you asked, normally, as my 25 responsibilities, I would notify the AW over EFTA00126659 14 1 Custody, and also, I would have conversations 2 the Warden. 3 : Okay. 4 : So, it would just depends on 5 what the situation may be. So, if there was 6 instances where I would run things through the 7 chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was 8 times that I would take direction directly from 9 the Warden. 10 : Okay. As far as, though, 11 in this instance, if, you know, being that 12 August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the 13 first person you contacted when you were -- 14 : Was 15 correct. And that was 16 because the other AW was out. Is that what you 17 were saying? 18 : My belief is that she was on 19 annual leave, which was stated 20 : Okay. 21 : -- that we had closed out on 22 that Friday, that she would be starting annual 23 leave. 24 : Okay. But the other AW 25 was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? EFTA00126660 15 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Which you just 3 said was - you went with 4 because she was on? 5 : That's right. 6 : Okay. Have you since 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 8 correct? 9 : Well, what I realized is 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 14 the AW over Custody. 15 : All right. How do you 16 spell her last name? 17 18 : Yes. 19 : A-D-G-E. 20 : Perfect. Thank you. All 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DOJ 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 24 of 2019? 25 : That is correct. EFTA00126661 16 1 : Great. I'm just going to 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 to their conversations with you. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : We want to just go over 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 clarification on. 9 : Absolutely. 10 : So, I'm just going to 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 : Correct. 14 : All right. So, " 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 : Correct. 18 : "In 2014, he was 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 sorry. 23 : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 in between there. 25 : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00126662 17 1 : Yeah. Right. 2 : So, it says, "In 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 6 his current position, where he oversees 7 security for the entire building." 8 : Well, yeah. There was a 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 13 Pollock. 14 : Okay. 15 : And then, from FCC Pollock, 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 19 MCC. 20 : Okay. So, they have - 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. It says, EFTA00126663 18 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. "And it has 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 Lieutenants. 17 : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. also sits on 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 the BOP." EFTA00126664 19 1 : Correct. 2 : "Among others, is 3 responsible for the following: Special Housing 4 Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant ." Is that 5 correct? 6 : Correct. 7 : "As an Administrative 8 Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining 9 paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an 10 Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying 11 whoever was Acting in the Administrative 12 Lieutenant -- 13 : Capacity? 14 -- position? 15 : No, I wasn't. Basically, 16 Administrative duties. The Administrative 17 duties falls under the appointed SHU 18 Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed 19 SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to 20 be done daily, within the unit. Not just the 21 supervision of the line staff that work the 22 unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. 23 Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is 24 done. 25 : Okay. EFTA00126665 20 1 : All security protocols are 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 accountability of the inmates in the unit. 8 : So, I guess what I was 9 getting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 . Was there a specific person that was the 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 : Yes. The Administrative 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 : And do you happen to know 15 how to spell that last name? 16 : It's 17 : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 was that? 20 : Which was the Lieutenant 21 (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:10). 22 : And common 23 spelling? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00126666 21 1 Activities Lieutenants". 2 : Which are on the day of the 3 incident? 4 : Yeah. And would you like 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 6 August 10th? 7 : Hmm-mm. 8 : No? Okay. Do you know 9 who it was? 10 : So, I believe the morning 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 13 just said her name. 14 : I can show you this. 15 : Yeah. 16 : So, I'm showing you a 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 20 : Right. 21 -- 2019. 22 : Right. 23 : And you can keep them in 24 front of you for the -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00126667 22 1 : -- for the interview, 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 people - so you can reference the two. 4 : Right. All right. So, it 5 appears here, it would have been 6 would have been the 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 2019. 9 : And is it 10 -: 11 : Yeah. 12 Perfect. And what times did she work 13 from? 14 : At that time, the shift they 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 : That is correct. 20 : And then, I'm assuming 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 Correct? 25 : That is - yeah - that was the EFTA00126668 23 1 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which 2 was Lieutenant . He informed me - 3 or I guess he became aware of the incident, I 4 believe, at 6:30 that morning. 5 : Okay. And so, I already 6 asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The 7 Operations Lieutenant and the Activities 8 Lieutenant are responsible for day to day 9 operations and maintaining order for three 10 shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness 11 Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility 12 in the event of an emergency incident, such as 13 fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there 14 a - during these instances - was there an 15 Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant? 16 : Yes. 17 : Who was that? 18 : I believe it was Lieutenant 19 20 : Lieutenant ? Okay. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Was Lieutenant off 23 that day, though? 24 : Lieutenant was, I 25 believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU EFTA00126669 24 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 : Okay. 3 : They worked Monday through 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 : Okay. 6 : So, Lieutenant was on 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 drill 10 : Okay. 11 that he would attend. 12 : Do you know if he was on 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 But was on the 9th? 16 : Let me see here. 17 : And you can just say, was 18 he on the schedule? 19 : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 Friday. 24 : All right. So, that 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00126670 25 1 Correct? 2 : That is correct. He was not 3 there, no. 4 • Great. And would his 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 7 he's gone, or is -? 8 : Normally, due to our staffing 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 20 assigned. 21 : And that post, like you 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 23 : No. 24 : So, Saturday. Great. 25 : No, it's not. EFTA00126671 26 1 : All right. Al 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 criteria, appropriate housing varies." 12 : Correct. 13 : All right. NI 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 : Correct. 18 : "During the first 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 accommodated with water, visits to the EFTA00126672 27 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 4 : Yes. So, most days, from the 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 7 until it closed. 8 : All right. And that's 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 13 Monday -- 14 : No. That's -- 15 : -- that's seven days a 16 week? 17 : -- that's seven days a week. 18 : All right. So, was it 19 almost every day? 20 : Every day. 21 : Okay. And was his food 22 brought to him there, then? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. How would he 25 obtain food? EFTA00126673 28 1 : Now, as far as food, I know - 2 and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, 3 inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. 4 : Okay. 5 : They're provided water. 6 They're provided to go to the bathroom. The 7 inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. 8 However, I believe that he was offered meals 9 from the vending machine. I'm not sure. 10 : Okay. 11 : I can't remember as far as 12 because I didn't remember there was an issue 13 with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, 14 or to address it. I just can't remember 15 : Sure. 16 what was done. 17 : Would the Attorneys be 18 allowed to bring him in food? 19 : No. No, no, no, no, no. 20 : No? 21 : No. 22 : Okay. 23 : No. No. No. No. Outside 24 food would not have been allowed. 25 : Okay. EFTA00126674 29 1 : So, I can't tell you if he 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 7 I can't remember. 8 : Sure. All right. That's 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 11 that you made with Epstein? 12 : The third one. So, that 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 16 : 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 17 : 8:00 p.m. 18 : Okay. 19 : Correct. So, I was actually 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his EFTA00126675 30 1 Unit Manager. 2 : Okay. And who was that? 3 : Which that was, I believe, 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) 5 : Right. 6 : At which time, I, you know, I 7 said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he 8 was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he 9 said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone 10 call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed 11 that when the inmate - we would reasonably 12 attempt to always facilitate a phone call for 13 the inmate, especially while him being housed 14 in the Special Housing Unit. So, I said to the 15 Unit Manager, , I said, 16 are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, 17 well, are you going to be able to monitor the 18 call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I 19 got no problem with that. I said, well, I 20 don't have a problem. Just make sure that you 21 follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is 22 when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, 23 it has to be monitored by staff, and the 24 number, and who they're talking to has to be 25 placed in a log. EFTA00126676 31 1 : Okay. 2 : So, I said, make sure that 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 5 institution. 6 : All right. So, this 7 conversation happened with , in front of 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 : Yes, it did. 10 : Okay. And that's the 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 13 : Yes. 14 : Was there a certain line 15 that they should have used? 16 : Yes. It's a secure line. 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 19 that's just for inside of the institution 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 22 : Would that be called a 23 legal line? 24 : Yeah. It would be just an 25 out. This would be a out, out. EFTA00126677 32 1 : Okay. 2 : Out line. 3 : Sure. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And they're not recorded 6 -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- and that's why you 9 said make sure that it's -- 10 11 12 13 Yes. : -- and did you -- : Correct. -- did you tell him, at 14 all, to document what was -? 15 : Yes. I told him to ensure 16 that he is present, that - the protocol is, 17 because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make 18 sure that you're present at the phone call. I 19 said, make sure that it's logged. And when you 20 dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, 21 stay on the line and said, he says, well, I 22 want to call my Attorney. Who was your 23 Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. 24 When they answer the phone, I said, this is 25 MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00126678 33 1 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what 2 is your title? So, we can log it. 3 : Okay. 4 : And the time that it's 5 logged. And then, you give the phone to the 6 inmate, and then you sit there while they're on 7 the phone. 8 : And do you know if that 9 was done? 10 : Again, I don't know. 11 : You don't know? 12 : I just ensured. That's it. 13 If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I 14 said, are you going to SHU? And are you going 15 to be able to monitor phone calls? 16 : But you don't know if 17 : He didn't say yes. 18 : -- he wrote up anything? 19 : I don't know what he did. 20 : Okay. 21 : I just ensured that I told 22 him. 23 : Sure. 24 : What needed to be done. 25 : And what would typically EFTA00126679 34 1 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. 2 : That phone call? 3 : Sure. 4 : Or that log? 5 : Like, after he documented 6 it. 7 : It would be maintained, just 8 in a log. 9 : Okay. 10 : It wouldn't be brought for 11 anyone's review. You know? It would just be, 12 hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I 13 could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And 14 then, I can tell you, and look, when he was 15 given a call. 16 : So, it goes into a 17 specific Epstein file? 18 : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It 19 doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It 20 goes into a book for monitored calls, for all 21 the inmates, and legal calls. 22 : For all inmates. So, not 23 just Epstein. It would be all -- 24 : That is correct. 25 -- inmates? Okay. EFTA00126680 35 1 : It would be a green logbook. 2 You know, and it would have the name of the 3 inmate, and who they called, the number, the 4 time. I don't know if the duration is on 5 there. But it will the person who also 6 monitored the call. So, you know, all that 7 information. But it wasn't something, like, a 8 form that was filled out, and then it was 9 placed in the inmate's file. 10 : Sure. 11 : Or central file. 12 13 14 : Sure. No. It wasn't like that. : And do you know if that 15 log in the book was filled out? 16 : I don't know. 17 : You don't know. Okay. 18 When you met with Epstein on that night, how 19 was his demeanor? 20 : It was fine. He was 21 cheerful. 22 : He was cheerful. 23 : You know, he didn't look 24 disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I 25 said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, EFTA00126681 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I said, did you have a good visit? And he said, yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all right, man. Okay. : You know? No cause for concern? : No, because every time we had that interaction, it was always pleasant. It was never negative. Okay. It says, "- was made aware of the possibility that Epstein would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's arrival. was not present when inmate Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was fit for general population, and was ultimately placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places inmates under three categories of close supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological observation. And three: suicide watch." : Mm-hmm. Is that all correct? : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00126682 37 1 : Okay. So, who made the 2 decision to place him in the Special Housing 3 Unit, specifically, and why? 4 : Okay. So, basically, the 5 rationale for placement of the inmate in the 6 Special Housing Unit would have been a decision 7 ultimately made by the Warden. They would have 8 took the criteria of the inmate. They would 9 have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? 10 You know, what would be the likelihood of him 11 being endangered if he would be placed in 12 general population? His culpability. Can he 13 cope while being inside of a general housing 14 unit? So, the determinations was made between 15 Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - 16 Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. 17 : And who was the Warden at 18 that time? 19 : It was 20 : And do you know how to 21 spell that last name? 22 23 24 25 : It would be -- : Apostrophe. apostrophe, : Thank you, sir. Are EFTA00126683 38 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 MCC? 3 : There is only one secured 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 : Okay. Not -- 6 : But however, we do have 7 -- Ten South (Phonetic 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 -- Ten South. 10 : Okay. 11 : And Ten South is for, I 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 : Okay. And what is SAMS 20 stand for? 21 : I believe - I can't remember. 22 : Okay. But is it, like, 23 S-A-M-S? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. Like, an acronym, EFTA00126684 39 1 though? 2 3 ■ : It is an acronym. : Okay. And that is not 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 5 Attorney General 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- is that -? Okay. 8 : That's going to be - yeah. 9 That's - yes. 10 : All right. Was there any 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 12 units? 13 : No. 14 : Could he have been placed 15 in one of those units? 16 : I'm sure he could have. 17 : But I mean, by executive 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 19 the -? 20 : I believe they would have had 21 to make a special concessions for the inmate. 22 : Okay. 23 : They would have to, you know, 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at EFTA00126685 40 1 MCC. 2 : Okay. And then, that's 3 where I meant by, is, so the executive staff 4 wasn't able to -- 5 : I don't believe so. 6 : -- independently -? 7 : No. We were not. 8 : Okay. Were there many 9 inmates housed within Ten South at that time? 10 : No. I believe, at that time, 11 we may have had a total of four to five. Of 12 course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin 13 Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also 15 had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't 16 remember his name. But basically, these are 17 inmates that have made crimes against the 18 United States, which it was deemed that those 19 inmates would be in that Special Management 20 Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the 21 general population. 22 : Was this, like, a 23 terrorist type of people? 24 : I would say some of them were 25 terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00126686 41 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 3 general population unit. 4 : Sure. 5 : He would go - normally, guys 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 7 before, you know, like Florence. 8 : Okay. 9 : He would be at the ADX 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 14 threats against the United States, or there was 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 20 unit. 21 : Sure. 22 : Guys you wouldn't want in the 23 general population because -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- of their recruitment EFTA00126687 42 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 there. 6 : Yeah. 7 : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 : Yes. 12 : And video monitored at 13 all times? 14 : Yes. 15 : Okay. So, it's like your 16 maximum security type? 17 : That would be the highest 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 in. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 Yeah. 23 : But the executive team 24 never discussed that? 25 : No. EFTA00126688 43 1 : Okay. advised 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 5 : I believe that Epstein and - 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 8 showing passive resistant activity, as far as, 9 you know, when they're taking meals, or 10 wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when 11 they're giving him direction. You know, he 12 would sit in his cell, and he wouldn't talk. 13 You know, I believe he wasn't taking meals at 14 one point. He was refusing to take showers. 15 Things of those that nature. 16 : And the sentence 17 continues, including requesting to see a 18 Psychologist. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Is that part of it? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. Did he say why he 23 wanted to see a Psychologist? 24 : I don't know. 25 : No? EFTA00126689 44 1 : Remember that, no. 2 : Sure. "At Epstein's 3 request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist." 4 Do you know who he made that request to? Would 5 it have been SHU staff? 6 : He probably would have made 7 those requests to any of the staff that may 8 have been monitoring him at that time. Because 9 if he was placed on psychological observation 10 at that time, psychological observation, you 11 would have had to have a staff person that sat 12 there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate 13 couldn't have monitored him. 14 : Okay. And that, is that, 15 like, 24/7? 16 : That would have been 24 hours 17 of that. Seven days a week. 18 : So, a staff member is 19 just 20 : Right. 21 : -- would just sit there 22 and watch him? 23 : Correct. 24 : Communicate with him, or 25 no? EFTA00126690 45 1 : Yeah, of course. 2 : Okay. 3 : I mean, and that's, you know, 4 encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - 5 you want it to - even though the inmate is 6 placed in that situation, again, we're talking 7 about humanity here. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : You know, you want to gage 10 this guy's mental acuity. Meaning that, the 11 inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how 12 he's doing. 13 : Sure. 14 : Is he improving? Or is he 15 declining? Because if he's declining, and you 16 can actually see it, you want to contact 17 somebody. You know, if this guy is in there 18 being very, you know, belligerent, he's being 19 passive aggressive, or active resistant, or 20 displaying signs of violence. You want to make 21 sure you notify someone. You're not just going 22 to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm 23 to himself and/or a staff when they come to the 24 door, to provide his services. You know? Such 25 as taking him to shower; providing his meals; EFTA00126691 46 1 providing his medication or whatever it is. 2 So, you just don't want to just sit there and 3 allow this inmate just, you know, if he's going 4 to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or 5 himself, you want to ensure that you notify 6 someone. 7 : Okay. "So, following 8 this assessment, Epstein was initially placed 9 on suicide watch. He was later interviewed 10 again, and downgraded to psychological 11 observation." 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Now, just for the suicide 14 watch and psychological observation, where are 15 they located? 16 : Those would be conducted 17 downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health 18 Services area. 19 : And that's outside of the 20 SHU. Correct? 21 : That is correct. 22 : And that was prior to any 23 attempt on his life or anything like that? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. Was that - ah, EFTA00126692 47 1 that's okay. "After some time, he was returned 2 to the SHU. began hearing talk that 3 Epstein was trying to get back on suicide 4 watch." 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : "Information like this is 7 usually generated from rounds, kites -", and 8 kites are notes, correct? 9 : Correct. 10 : And notes from inmates, 11 specifically. Correct? 12 : It could be - yes - that 13 would be inmate correspondence. 14 : Yeah. "And monitoring of 15 phone calls and letters." 16 : Correct. 17 : So, the hearing of talk, 18 that's all based upon inmate talk? 19 : That would have been - all 20 that staff. 21 : Okay. Staff, as well? 22 : You know, staffing sitting 23 there, and, you know, especially when he's on 24 suicide watch. You know, staff are taking 25 notes. So, it's every 15 minutes, you know, EFTA00126693 48 1 staff is - oh, I'm sorry - every 30 minutes, I 2 believe, I can't remember. It's been a while. 3 But, you know, a staff member - it's every 30 4 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the 5 inmate is doing inside of his cell. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : You know? So, you know, what 8 is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. 9 The inmate is facing away from staff. The 10 inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes 11 statements, those statements will be written in 12 the log. 13 : Okay. It says, "On or 14 about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found 15 unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a 16 homemade piece of fabric on his chest." When 17 you say a "homemade piece of fabric," can you 18 explain that a little bit? 19 : Okay. Basically, a homemade 20 piece of fabric. It could be anything. 21 Because it's out of the Special Housing, that's 22 what we're talking about. Right? 23 : Yeah. I mean, I'm 24 talking about specifically in this instance. 25 Do you know what is meant by "found on the EFTA00126694 49 1 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his 2 chest"? 3 : It could have been fragments 4 from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments 5 from sheets. It could have been fragment 6 : So, like, pieces of cloth 7 8 : -- cloth -- 9 : -- that they could tie 10 together. 11 : It was tied together, or -- 12 : Sure. 13 : -- you know, (Indiscernible 14 *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade 15 fashioned -- 16 : Did you see it at all, 17 though, yourself? 18 : I can't remember. 19 : Okay. Sure. "Epstein's 20 cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff 21 member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and 22 removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical 23 Unit." Do you recall, at that time, who his 24 cell mate was? 25 Tartaglione. EFTA00126695 50 1 : Okay. Great. And did 2 you - all right. We talk about him in a little 3 bit. heard from his staff that Epstein 4 may have been faking unconsciousness." Do you 5 know who told you that? 6 : Well, basically, in 7 memorandum, I remember when it was reported to 8 me, and I made my report, I believe it was in 9 the report of incident by Lieutenant 10 : Okay. 11 -: . And I 12 believe that she had put out an e-mail, which 13 concluded that the inmate was showing 14 manipulative behavior through his statements, 15 and what was observed by Medical staff. 16 : Okay. 17 : So, basically, they were 18 saying that the incident didn't occur as the 19 inmate may have tried to make it look or occur. 20 : Okay. And we're going to 21 get into in a second. 22 : So. 23 : "Because he was not 24 observed opening his eyes and making other 25 suspicious movements not consistent with an EFTA00126696 51 1 unconscious state." Or sorry. "Because he was 2 observed opening his eyes and making other 3 suspicious movements not consistent with an 4 unconscious state. Epstein was medically 5 assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed 6 that his cell mate, Nicholas Tartaglione -", T- 7 A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- tried to take his 10 life." Was that investigated? 11 : I believe - no, I mean 12 : Sure. 13 -- I can't remember, but I 14 believe a report of incident may have been 15 done. 16 : Okay. 17 : And primarily, when a report 18 of incident is generated - so, any time that an 19 incident happens in the institution, I'm going 20 to walk you through this. The Lieutenant 21 that's on shift is supposed to do the initial 22 fact finding. The gathering of evidence. 23 Okay? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : And all of these things. And EFTA00126697 52 1 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, 2 it's put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS 3 Department will investigate it, especially if 4 we're having an assault, which would have been 5 a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of 6 another. So, pictures would have been taken. 7 Clinical assessments of both inmates would have 8 been taken. Witness statements would have been 9 taken. All of these things would have been 10 done, and it goes into an investigative packet. 11 : Sure. So, 12 - Lieutenant - would have -? 13 : Would have been -- 14 : Created it and provided 15 it to SIS? 16 : -- and would have created it, 17 and for it to move on. 18 : And do you know if there 19 was any credibility found to the claim that 20 Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - 21 had tried to take his life? 22 : I don't believe there was any 23 credibility that was ever concluded -- 24 : Okay. 25 : -- that that incident EFTA00126698 53 1 happened. 2 : And do you know anything 3 about when he was initially found, if the 4 homemade rope or whatever it was, was found 5 around his neck, or it says in this, "On his 6 chest," anything with that, with, you know, do 7 you know what I mean? Like, if someone was 8 trying to hang themself, if it came on their 9 chest, do you know anything about how that may 10 have happened? 11 : I mean, forensically, I 12 wouldn't know. I'm not a -- 13 : Sure. 14 -- an investigator on that 15 level. So, I can't really tell you the 16 position of any type of homemade fashioned item 17 that would be used to facilitate a suicide 18 attempt, or 19 : Sure. 20 : -- an assault attempt. 21 That's not my level. 22 : Sure. 23 : Again, I'm trying to remember 24 what it was, or what was used, but again 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126699 54 1 -- I don't know exactly. So, 2 I can't really determine or give you that type 3 of, you know, I don't have expertise 4 : Sure. 5 in that area. So -. 6 : But the information that 7 was provided to you suggested that he tried to 8 take his own life, not that the cell mate tried 9 to take is life? 10 : Correct. That it was 11 inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate 12 Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or 13 tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you 14 have to - so, like, you have to take an 15 advantage because it's one inmates' word 16 against another. 17 : Sure. 18 : So, when the investigation 19 comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would 20 have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would 21 have been interviewed, at which time, you would 22 have took those statements, you would have 23 waived, and then you would have took into 24 consideration any witness statements, or 25 anything that was observed during the clinical EFTA00126700 55 1 assessment. So, that's why Health Services 2 helps us out, because the inmates don't want 3 understand that everything they're doing, or 4 anything they're saying, is being entered on 5 that clinical assessment. 6 : Sure. 7 : So, that's where they were 8 saying that he wasn't - his actions may not 9 have been what they should have been for a 10 person that was quasi supposed to had been 11 assaulted. 12 : Sure. 13 : Or if he was supposed to have 14 been unconscious, you was displaying this type 15 of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't 16 there. So, I don't know what occurred. I'm 17 just going by what was - the information that 18 was relayed back to me. 19 : Absolutely. So, as far 20 as Tartaglione 21 : Correct. 22 : -- what was he in for? 23 : I believe that Tartaglione 24 was responsible for - he was a former Police 25 Officer, I believe - and I believe he had EFTA00126701 56 1 killed four people, and then he 2 buried the victims somewhere up 3 Prison. I think that's what it 4 the day. 5 6 7 : Okay. buried them, near Otisville was. Back in Yeah. Something like that. 8 for murder, though? 9 : So, he was actually in Yeah. It was murder. He was 10 in for murder and whatever other stuff he was 11 doing. 12 13 14 Police Officer. 15 : Okay. Doing in his capacity as a : And who selected him and 16 why? To be Epstein's -- 17 : Who selected him? 18 : -- who selected him to be 19 Epstein's roommate, and why? 20 I don't remember who vetted 21 Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, 22 even though Tartaglione had a murder on his 23 jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had 24 issues being in general population. You 25 understand what I'm saying? EFTA00126702 57 1 2 Officer? 3 : Mm-hmm. Former Police Former Police Officer. He 4 had issues - because I've dealt with 5 Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one 6 of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues 7 with those inmates in those blocks, where 8 they're made for people who are sex offenders. 9 For inmates that have issues with - when they 10 go to population - general, they can't cope. 11 Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are 12 in that unit. So, you don't really have that 13 much issues in those type of units because 14 these guys are going to do their time, or await 15 their sentencing, and then move on. So, you 16 don't really have a lot of violence. But this 17 guy was always, always in the mix of something. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : But we couldn't put him on 20 the general population unit, and you just can't 21 throw him in SHU. You know what I'm saying? 22 Just because. You just can't. So, in 23 Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - I 24 think it was in K82. I can't remember. When 25 he goes to MCC, you know, they don't have those EFTA00126703 58 1 type of units. You know? So, he would have to 2 go in general population, or he would go to 3 SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and 4 said I'm not going to population, you can't 5 force me. So, when you do his assessment, his 6 Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does 7 their assessment, Health Services does that 8 assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is 9 clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded 10 him to go. But the inmate said, well, you 11 know, I'm a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. 12 I'm not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that's 13 how he ended up in SHU. 14 : Sure. So, he was in SHU 15 already? 16 : Yeah. 17 : And do you believe he was 18 a good placement for Epstein? 19 : Well, at the time, again, you 20 would have to be mindful, we don't - how could 21 I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells 22 based on race, or - but however - or gang 23 affiliations, all of these things that, you 24 know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you 25 say, okay, well, you have guys up there that EFTA00126704 59 1 at MCC - that were facing murder charges. 2 There's a lot of them. 3 : Sure. 4 : Hey, I mean, if they're in 5 SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. 6 They can't cope in the general population unit. 7 So, we would look at him just like another 8 inmate. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : He never hurt another inmate. 11 : And that was going to be 12 my next question. So, he wasn't known to 13 assault anyone? 14 Bro, he never assaulted 15 another inmate. 16 : Okay. 17 : Yeah, he got a murder beef, 18 okay, that's fine. But guess what? He never 19 hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. 20 : Sure. So, taking, 21 though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, 22 though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried 23 to murder him, do you think that - do you 24 believe that there was any credibility to that 25 claim? EFTA00126705 60 1 : Again, what I will say is, is 2 that I will tell you, like you said, my 3 statements before, that it was brought to my 4 attention that inmate Epstein was doing 5 manipulative behavior, kind of testing the 6 water to see what he could get away with. 7 : Sure. 8 : Being his initial 9 incarceration. Probably not too familiar with 10 being in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. 11 He kind of figured out what he could do, in 12 order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try 13 to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. 14 That's kind of where he wanted it to go. 15 : So then, he wanted to be 16 in SHU by himself -- 17 : Of course. 18 : -- and that may have been 19 why he -- 20 : Yes. 21 : -- said that -? Okay. 22 So, you believe that he made the claim against 23 Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by 24 himself. 25 : That's in my belief, after EFTA00126706 61 1 looking at everything, and everything that was 2 done, I believe so. I think that would be 3 accurate. 4 : Okay. It says, "He was 5 placed back on suicide watch for approximately 6 one week." So, that happened the 23rd, and it 7 brought him up to about July 30th. Is that 8 correct? 9 Mm-hmm. Correct. 10 : Of 2019. "Unlike his 11 first and previous placement on suicide watch, 12 Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies 13 reported in his incarceration history. The 14 staff was tasked with determining whether 15 Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using 16 manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a 17 cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was 18 placed on psychological observation, and 19 eventually returned to the SHU." Now, again, 20 and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that 21 didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to 22 you? Like, hey, he should be on Ten South? 23 : No. 24 : You don't recall any 25 Lieutenants saying that? EFTA00126707 62 1 : That wouldn't be a 2 Lieutenant's purview. 3 : Sure. 4 : A Lieutenant, most of the 5 people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't 6 understand SAMS placement until I became a 7 Deputy Captain. 8 : Okay. 9 : All right? And I understood 10 that, you know, these guys, you just can't put 11 a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that's an 12 identifier that has to come from Central 13 Office. 14 : Okay. 15 : BOP Central Office. 16 : So, if a Lieutenant - so, 17 if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're 18 saying, he should have been in Ten South -- 19 : Well -- 20 : -- but they don't know 21 what they're talking about, basically? 22 : No. Because that identifier 23 - because I believe you know this - it's an 24 identifier. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126708 63 1 : That's put on an inmate just 2 like - I will give you an example - sentencing 3 designations. Okay? 4 : Sure. 5 : That's their job. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : They're going to do, say, 8 what Security level inmates, what type of 9 prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, 10 you know, all of these different things, all 11 that stuff is going to come from that Central 12 Office, to say, okay, we looked at this 13 particular inmate's history, or PSI, and we 14 feel that this identifier needs to be placed on 15 this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or 16 moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff 17 can't put that on there. 18 : Sure. 19 : That's going to come from 20 Central Office. 21 : Okay. So, although a 22 Lieutenants may have thought -. 23 : They may have - yeah - they 24 may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, 25 his situation, of him being a multi- EFTA00126709 64 1 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues 2 of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all 3 of these things, he wouldn't be a good 4 candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That 5 responsibility, that identifier, that moniker 6 should have been put on Epstein before he even 7 came to MCC. 8 : Sure. So, do you know if 9 this is something - obviously, it sounds like 10 it would have been out of your hands - would 11 that be something that the Warden would discuss 12 with, what? The Regional Director? 13 : That's right. The Warden 14 would have had that discussion between SIA, the 15 Regional staff, and also, it goes to the 16 Region, the Central Office staff over 17 Correctional Programing. 18 : Okay. And you were never 19 -- 20 : And designations. 21 : -- involved with any of 22 that? 23 : I would never be in any of 24 those conversations. 25 : Okay. Fair enough. So, EFTA00126710 65 1 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden 2 would be the right person to go back to and 3 just say, hey, did this ever come up in 4 conversation? 5 : Right. 6 : Okay. Okay. It says, 7 "At the direction of the Warden, 8 initiated the process of compiling possible 9 cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and 10 submitting candidates to the Warden for his 11 review. and his staff fully screened 12 potential cell mates, and reported their 13 determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes 14 -", E-F-R-A-I-N, R-E-Y-E-S, "- was selected and 15 housed in a cell with Epstein." 16 : That's right. 17 : And it says, "The 18 Assistant Warden," but I'm assuming they mean 19 the Associate Warden, "Warden and Regional 20 Director were notified." 21 : Okay. This is how that went 22 down. sat with me - not with the 23 AW present - and we wanted to - we started 24 talking about security protocols, moving 25 forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with me EFTA00126711 66 1 and , we had this discussion. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because like I said earlier 4 in my statement, even though the AW would have 5 been my next in succession, as far as my 6 Supervisor, however, I did have conversations 7 directly with the Warden, as far as for 8 security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) 9 in the institution. 10 : Sure. 11 : So, we sat there, and he 12 wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates 13 that would be possible good candidates as a 14 cell mate for Epstein moving forward. 15 : Sure. 16 : So, I brought a compiled, I 17 believe I had ten names, and he and I went 18 through those names, we brought it down to 19 three. Then those three names, 20 because I sat there - when he called the 21 Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the 22 Regional Director vetted those three names. 23 : Sure. 24 : And then, I sat there, and I 25 was privy to that conversation. I sat there, EFTA00126712 67 1 and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole 2 makeup of all three of them, and the Regional 3 Director said, no, I want this guy. 4 : So, the Regional Director 5 6 : Yes. 7 : -- ultimately made the 8 decision? 9 : Yes. 10 : So, give me a little 11 background on Reyes. What was he in for? 12 : I believe Reyes was a 13 Hispanic, older male. I believe that 14 particular inmate was in for - I think he was 15 in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I 16 can't remember. 17 : Some kind of a charge 18 with -- 19 : Charge, dealing with -- 20 : -- sexual -- 21 -- with, you know, those type 22 of charges, sexual -- 23 : So, a similar type of -- 24 : similar type of charges 25 : -- charge. EFTA00126713 68 1 : -- as Epstein, I believe, or 2 I can't remember. 3 : Okay. Was he - when he 4 was being vetted - was he close to, like, a 5 release date or anything like that? An 6 anticipated release date? 7 : No one knew that. Because 8 this is what you need to understand about MCC. 9 MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not 10 prisons. 11 : Sure. 12 : It's a jail. So, that means 13 if a guy goes to court, you know, you get 14 locked up, and then, the next day, you might go 15 to court, the Judge might say, no, I'm 16 releasing you. We don't know. 17 : Sure. 18 : The only time we'll know is 19 when the inmates come back from court, where is 20 this guy at? He was released. 21 : Gotcha. 22 : Okay. Now, we got this guy 23 still in our count. So, if they don't bring a 24 transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're 25 going to bring the transfer order back with EFTA00126714 69 1 them for court line. These guys got released. 2 So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. 3 So, we try to get these guys up. Do some 4 inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. 5 But however, we don't know if an inmate goes 6 out to court, if they're coming back. 7 : Sure. 8 : However, there is times when 9 they put out a roster, and it's given to - as 10 far as all Correctional Officers that work the 11 units, and it will say, court line, inmate 12 Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That 13 means that he has to come downstairs with all 14 belongings. So, if they say it, that means 15 he's not coming back. That's either he's 16 transferring to another BOP facility, or he's 17 going to be released to the street. 18 : Okay. 19 : But I can guarantee you that 20 that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes 21 was on that day, it didn't say WAB. Because it 22 would have said WAB, the first thing that that 23 OIC should have said, that's my orange tag guy. 24 Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, 25 and I made them put them up on the board. EFTA00126715 70 1 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed 2 to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU 3 Lieutenant wasn't there. But he would have 4 called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don't 5 have a cell. 6 : Yeah. So, how long did 7 it take to vet? You know, I know you said you 8 started it with ten, and then it brought down 9 to three, and then the Regional Director 10 ultimately decided the one. But how long does 11 that process take? 12 : I believe it took - I'm 13 thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took 14 a day. 15 : Okay. 16 : I mean, we actually went - 17 and, you know, I don't know - I know either the 18 Warden and I was having a lengthy 19 conversations, because the Warden wanted to 20 ensure - Warden philosophy when 21 dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he's another 22 inmate. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : And what he tried to try to 25 get across to exec staff, and what he tried to EFTA00126716 71 1 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to 2 when I disseminated down to the subordinate 3 staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about 4 what his charges are? 5 : Sure. 6 : Or since he's sensationalized 7 in the media. Nobody cares. 8 : Of course. 9 : We're going to manage him 10 appropriately. Because if you know anything 11 about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn 12 and MCC, we don't run those jails. The court 13 runs those jails. 14 : Right. 15 : So, and that's the truth, the 16 court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says 17 goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's 18 neither here nor there. So, wanted 19 the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, 20 he has certain charges, but we're going to make 21 sure he gets everything that all the inmates 22 get when they come to MCC. The inmates are 23 going to get proper care. The inmate is going 24 to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. 25 Whatever it may be. But however, after those EFTA00126717 72 1 situations with Epstein where it showed that 2 his behavior was manipulative, when it shows 3 that he was trying to get things for 4 unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to 5 get anything that would benefit him, we had to 6 take some different protocols. We had to take 7 a different - they had to take a different -- 8 : Approach. 9 : mindset with this guy, or 10 the way we managed him had to change. Because 11 we already had this guy saying that he was 12 going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or 13 whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, 14 moving forward, we put protocols in place that 15 will protect us, as an Agency. 16 : So, speaking of 17 protocols, was it discussed, then, when you 18 were vetting these, hey, we have inmates 19 constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is 20 moved, one of these other two that were down to 21 the three would be moved in with him? Was that 22 discussed? 23 : No. Be would just basically 24 - because like I said, again, at MCC, you 25 wouldn't know how long the duration on the EFTA00126718 73 1 inmates stay. 2 : Sure. 3 : You wouldn't know. 4 : So, you just have to 5 start the vetting process -- 6 : Press it 7 : -- over again? 8 : -- all over again. 9 : Okay. 10 : Whoever is available in the 11 unit, that may be single-celled, because as you 12 know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of 13 Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, 14 and Special Housing Units, they cannot be 15 celled alone. 16 : And -- 17 : They must have a cell mate. 18 : -- in the Special Housing 19 Unit, everyone must have a cell mate? 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Oh, I didn't know that. 22 So, every single one needs to have a cell mate? 23 : Except - except, because it's 24 one of the areas that we didn't discuss, 25 outside of Ten South - there was a range that EFTA00126719 74 1 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from 2 Ten South, that only had one man cell 3 occupancy, which was on G-range. 4 : Okay. Was that part of 5 the Special Housing Unit? 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : So, there is a part of 8 the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man 9 occupancy, and -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- another part that has 12 two-man occupancy? 13 : That is correct. 14 : Okay. And Epstein was 15 housed in the two-man occupancy? 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Was it ever discussed to 18 put him in one of the one-man occupancies? 19 : No. 20 : No? 21 : Because all of those cells 22 were filled with inmates that were vetted, that 23 needed that type of supervision. 24 : Okay. 25 : You had inmates in there EFTA00126720 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that, if they was put with another inmate, inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would die. : And was part of that -- : They would be assaulted. So, we would have to make those considerations. So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, according to their situation -- : Mm-hmm. -- I believe it was sound. But guess what? You can only - you're like the coach - I can make the game plan, but if the players are not executing the game plan, whose fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? And exactly, and that's what we're doing here, we're Monday morning quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all right, this is - and that's why we're going back through it. So, "The Warden directed on multiple occasions that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times, and verbally informed repeatedly Lieutenant his Lieutenants the same. directed his SHU Lieutenant that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times. Additionally, EFTA00126721 76 1 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and 2 directed staff to be very alert and attentive 3 about Epstein's special accommodations." So, 4 when you say that about the SHU staff, did you 5 also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed 6 to have a cell mate? 7 : Yes. 8 : Oh, so, they all were 9 : Yes. 10 : -- were aware? 11 : Yes. 12 : Can you look at the - so, 13 the SHU staff for both of August 9th and the 14 very early morning hours of August 10th - can 15 you just list the people and let me know if you 16 informed those people? 17 : So, basically, my hours of 18 work were normally from - let's just say 7:30 19 to 4:00. 20 : Sure. 21 : So, I ensured that it wasn't 22 within one week, but it was a process of doing 23 rounds. So, I try to hit every shift. 24 : Sure. 25 : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00126722 77 1 because that's the one I work. Evening watch, 2 I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, 3 this is the situation. Let's make sure that, 4 you know, we're paying attention. And then, 5 morning watch, of course. 6 : Okay. 7 : So -. 8 : So, beginning at 8:00 9 a.m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to 10 who - and name the people - can you just name 11 who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a 12 conversation with them, if they were aware. 13 : Okay. Let me see here. 14 Well, we had . I've talked to 15 (Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was 16 in there. was one of the guys 17 that was up there as a Rec Officer. 18 : So, all -- 19 : Him. 20 : -- all of those people 21 were, you had conversations -- 22 : Yes. 23 : -- specifically with 24 them, and they know? 25 : I've talked with these guys. EFTA00126723 78 1 : Absolutely. Can you just 2 name the other people for the shifts after him? 3 I think they just -. 4 : You got - now, M. Thomas. M. 5 Thomas, what you need to understand is, that he 6 would have been - because, you know, like I 7 said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- 8 custody staff. I don't have conversations with 9 him. 10 : Okay. So, Michael Thomas 11 -- 12 : So, that mean -- 13 : -- may not have known? 14 -- right, because 15 realistically, the morning watch and evening 16 watch shift, people don't like to come to work. 17 : Sure. 18 : So, they - if you sign up for 19 overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. 20 I'll take it. But you're non-custody. So, 21 that means anybody can work it. A teacher. A 22 Food Service foreman. 23 : Is the SHU easier to work 24 than the other units? 25 : I wouldn't say it's easier, EFTA00126724 79 1 but it's less labor intensive. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because, in my opinion, from 4 when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing 5 was always hard work because I'm going to tell 6 you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I 7 mean vigilant, you have to understand, when 8 you're working that Unit, anything can happen. 9 It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're 10 not walking, looking in those cells, testing 11 the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure 12 the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors 13 are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, 14 sometimes doors was unlocked. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : Or flaps opened. To chase 17 doors, those 18 : What is a flap? 19 the Food Service flap. 20 : Okay. Sure. 21 : You know? Making rounds. 22 Making sure the inmates are not - have 23 coverings up when you open up the - what do you 24 call it? 25 : The window? EFTA00126725 80 1 : The windows or putting a 2 towel over their beds, and blocking the light 3 from you being able to observe them. 4 : But then, how 5 : And what I said about 6 : but how -. 7 but I want to go back 8 because I know about the statement, about the 9 doors being left open. I'm talking about more 10 in general population, as far as when you're 11 making rounds, those type of things, you test. 12 Making sure the door is secure. Making sure 13 the food slots are secure. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : As an Officer coming up, even 16 as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually 17 walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that's 18 supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide 19 open? 20 : Wow. Ever at the MCC? 21 : No. Because that wasn't my 22 capacity. 23 : Sure. 24 : That wasn't my job. But as a 25 Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00126726 81 1 Lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would 2 do. When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk 3 to staff. I would walk in and look at the 4 Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire 5 extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? 6 Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block. 7 Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. 8 Showing - trying to train the Officers. 9 : Sure. 10 : That's what I used to do. 11 : Lead by example. 12 : And guess what happens? You 13 would find stuff, because people in hurry 14 enough to go home on that evening watch, them 15 inmates know their doors are locked. But they 16 know they're not going to come out. Because if 17 they come out, there's a situation. But 18 they'll sit up there and leave it open. 19 : So, back to this, though. 20 Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the 21 subsequent shifts, if you had conversations 22 with them? 23 : So -- 24 : So, Thomas, no. 25 : -- so, Thomas, because he EFTA00126727 82 1 would have just been on there. 2 Yeah. I've talked to because 3 would go between evening watch, 4 because I would talk to him. would work 5 evening watch, so I've talked to him on evening 6 watch. He was working morning watch because 7 these guys, it was such short of staff, that 8 these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. 9 Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted 10 money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign 11 up for overtime. So, was one 12 of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. 13 Yeah, so, I talked to him. 14 I talked with him. 15 would go between the three, and also 16 the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out 17 of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though 18 he was the three - he was the one with OIC 19 duties. 20 : And OIC stands for 21 Officer-in-Charge? 22 : Officer-in-Charge. 23 : Okay. 24 : So, he was doing all the 25 rosters. When it was time to move inmates EFTA00126728 83 1 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge 2 of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, 3 to ensure that the accountability of the unit 4 was correct, to make sure that the inmates were 5 placed in their proper cells. Who was this? 6 I'm sorry. Hold on. 7 : And so, in the SHU, we 8 want to be focusing on? 9 : T. Noel. T. Noel was one of 10 the -- 11 : And that's Tova? 12 : -- now, I know Tova. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Now, Tova, I can't remember 15 if I spoke to Tova. Tova - exactly. 16 : Okay. 17 : But I know that I had hit all 18 three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was 19 always up there on day watch. Evening watch. 20 I stayed over because that's what the Warden 21 wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and 22 hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do 23 it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why 24 wouldn't I go do it? 25 : Sure. EFTA00126729 84 1 : The Warden -- 2 : Okay. 3 -- we sat down, he said, 4 these are the things that I want to happen. 5 First, I want you to make sure, walk through, 6 talk about, make sure the staff is aware, 7 (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, 8 and this. And also, I know that you have 9 that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't 10 tell them - what do you call that? - by -- 11 : So, you sent an e-mail to 12 all the SHU? 13 : Yes, I did. To all 14 Correctional Services staff. And I think I 15 still got it. 16 : To all Correctional? 17 : Yeah. I still got -- 18 : Did you ever provide -- 19 : -- that e-mail. 20 : -- that to anyone? 21 : Huh? 22 : Did you ever provide that 23 to anyone? 24 : No. And they never asked for 25 it. EFTA00126730 85 1 : Can you absolutely 2 provide that to us? 3 : Yeah. I think I have one, 4 and we can go to my office, so I can show you. 5 I don't want you to think I - I will bring it 6 up for you. 7 : So, would have this 8 Michael Thomas and Tova Noel been on that e- 9 mail? 10 : Toys would have been, because 11 he's a Correctional Officer. But not Thomas. 12 : Okay. 13 : You understand? 14 : Okay. 15 : But however, what we did was 16 -- 17 : I thought everyone was 18 considered a Correctional Officer. That's not 19 the case? 20 : As far as when emergencies 21 happen. 22 : Okay. 23 : When emergencies happen, 24 regardless of what your discipline is, we all 25 come together, it means you going to - EFTA00126731 86 1 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone 2 was given the opportunity, that when you went 3 through Correctional - those tactics that you 4 learned in Glynco, it was about being a 5 Correctional Officer. It wasn't about being a 6 Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It's 7 about Correctional principals. 8 : Okay. 9 : Introduction to Correctional 10 principals. 11 : But as far as there is an 12 e-mail that just the people that are working in 13 the Correctional Officer 14 : Yes. 15 : -- okay. 16 : And I can show that to you. 17 : Perfect. 18 : I have that. 19 : Awesome. 20 : Because it wasn't just me 21 just talking to them. I put out guidance, and 22 I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it 23 was one time. I talked about inmates being 24 placed on suicide watch. I talked about 25 inmates putting on there - what is the EFTA00126732 87 1 difference between close supervision - what is 2 it? - suicide watch. 3 4 observation. 5 : Psychological And psychological. There's 6 no such thing as psychological - and that you 7 know now - there's no such thing. It's called 8 close supervision. There's no such as 9 psychological. That was an MCC thing. 10 : Okay. 11 : That they made up. So, it's 12 a close supervision and/or suicide watch. 13 : So, you have at least one 14 e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional 15 Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell 16 mate? 17 : It wasn't saying Epstein, but 18 I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and 19 one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet 20 for Epstein. I think you may have that. I 21 don't know if you have it. And then, I have 22 wrote another one about the important of doing 23 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. 24 : Okay. Yeah, if you can 25 after we're done - either you can send it to EFTA00126733 88 1 me, or you can give it to me. 2 : I can give it to you. I'm 3 going to give you a copy. 4 : Perfect. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : All right. Then just 7 : And so -- 8 : I think there's a few 9 more. Like, I don't know how to spell his 10 name, pronounce his name, but -- 11 : So -- 12 13 : -- so, 14 • 15 : Again, that was another non- 16 custody guy. So, , I believe worked in 17 - he was a Material Handler. I think 18 was a Material Handler. So, he's not 19 Correctional Services anymore. However, did 20 they have a background - no, I'm sorry. 21 went to R and D. So, he was Receiving 22 and Discharge. So, these staff members worked 23 as Correctional Officers, came up as 24 Correctional Officers. But their daily 25 assignment, their job descriptions changed. EFTA00126734 89 1 2 3 custody. 4 : Mm-hmm. : Their whatever, their non- . So, the people that 5 worked in the SHU, and the Correctional 6 Officers, they were aware of it, but people 7 that had different functions in the facility, 8 they may not have been? 9 : May not have been because I 10 wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. 11 : And what about, do you 12 know if there were any kind of, like, post-it 13 notes, or sticky notes, or any -? 14 : Yes. I had created - it was 15 one, one, because I said orange card inmates - 16 I said, make sure these particular inmates, 17 inmates high visibility inmates, and I think I 18 talked about that, that the inmates, their 19 cards should be orange. And those would be our 20 high visibility inmates that you - and I think 21 I got an e-mail about that, too - about the 22 high visibility inmates inside the unit, you 23 should take special care to ensure these 24 inmates are -- 25 : Observed. EFTA00126735 90 1 -- observed. When you're 2 doing your rounds. 3 : Anything, though, about 4 the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do 5 you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky 6 note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, 7 make sure that Epstein -? 8 : I can't remember. 9 : Yeah, yeah. 10 : But like I said, I was 11 putting out a lot of guidance -- 12 : Absolutely. 13 you know, coming from - 14 and, you know - coming from the Warden, and 15 things that I would have thought that was 16 beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was 17 just putting that guidance out. I kept putting 18 out. You know, like I said, you know, I'm 19 talking to them, I'm putting out the guidance, 20 but if they don't open their e-mail and don't 21 read it. 22 : What about some of the 23 people who were Acting Lieutenants? Somebody 24 like an SOS 25 : Ms. EFTA00126736 91 1 • . Sorry. So, Ms. 2 . Ms. , she would work 3 Correctional post. 4 : So, should have he known 5 that 6 : She would have known. 7 : -- should have she known 8 that Epstein had -? 9 : It's common knowledge that 10 you're supposed to do 30-minute rounds. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : And be vigilant. But 13 however, would she know, necessarily, that 14 those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, 15 that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, 16 you see an orange card, if you see the 17 guidance. I believe I had put something 18 together, that was on the OIC's desk, on the 19 desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, 20 and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 21 inmate. 22 : But is it understood that 23 a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell 24 mate? 25 : Yes. EFTA00126737 92 1 : Okay. So, you're saying, 2 make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also 3 understood, if it's a high-visibility inmate, 4 they need a cell mate at all times? 5 : Yes. 6 : Okay. And did they all 7 understand that? 8 : Yes. 9 : All right. And to 10 include Thomas and -- 11 : I don't know. 12 : -- Noel? 13 : Because they are not custody. 14 : Okay. 15 : And I don't believe I had 16 that conversation with them. I'm not going to 17 lie. I didn't have that conversation with 18 them. 19 : What about some of these 20 Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like 21 22 : Ms. ? Oh, Ms. 23 was in Correctional Services. And she - I 24 believe - during that time, was working an 25 Attorney conference. EFTA00126738 93 1 : Yes. 2 : She was in Correctional 3 Service. She was working an Attorney 4 conference during that time. So, Ms. , I 5 actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. 6 She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. 7 She would have known. 8 : So, she should have - or 9 would have, or should have? 10 : Yes. 11 : How about some of these 12 other ones that we're on? You said 13 obviously, you already said you 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- specifically directed 16 him. 17 : If he - yeah - I brought him 18 in the office, and we spoke. Yes. 19 : Do you know how - and I 20 think you said that you spoke to him on 21 multiple occasions -- 22 : Yes. 23 : -- is that correct, and 24 made sure, hey, make sure he has a cell mate? 25 : Yes. EFTA00126739 94 1 : Okay. What about 2 3 . I had 4 conversations - well, I don't believe I had a 5 conversation with her. 6 : Should have she known, 7 based upon the orange card? 8 : Yes. She would have known 9 because I put the guidance out through the e- 10 mail. 11 : Now, the guidance, 12 though, said about - you said it talked about 13 rounds as opposed to actual cell mate 14 requirement, though, correct? 15 : I can't remember. 16 : Okay. 17 : You know, I don't know, 18 because like I said, again, I put out a lot of 19 guidance. 20 : Yeah. 21 : But I know the people who I 22 actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the 23 OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that 24 means you working day watch, that means any 25 movement happens on day watch, it don't happen EFTA00126740 95 10 1 on morning watch. Inmates are locked in their 2 cells. 3 : Right. 4 : So, anything, day watch, 5 evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be 6 aware. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, that's why 9 : And we'll get in : So, that's why we would have 11 that conversation. When he and I had that 12 conversation. 13 : And do you remember - so, 14 you recall specifically talking with him - do 15 you - and this is, I want to know about - aside 16 from what they should have known - specific 17 conversations with 18 -: . I can't 19 remember about . I believe it's as 20 internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office 21 and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, 22 the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I 23 remember that I would come into the 24 Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. 25 So, again, between the guidance that was put EFTA00126741 96 1 out through emails, and the conversations that 2 I would have just encountering Lieutenants, 3 yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I 4 had a conversation with 5 : And would have made 6 sure that those people working in the SHU knew 7 this information? 8 : He would have - as the 9 Lieutenant-in-Charge, yes. 10 : Should have he made sure 11 somebody like - somebody that's not in there. 12 Although, Tova Noel, I think that was her 13 quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a 14 lot of times -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- leading up to it. So, 17 should have he made sure that she -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- what about -- 20 : Because she worked evening 21 watch. 22 : -- what about Michael 23 Thomas? 24 : Michael Thomas, probably not. 25 But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00126742 97 1 I mean, you would say, okay, if he's working on 2 evening watching or morning watch, there was no 3 need to move inmates. There was no showers 4 that should have been taking place. There was 5 no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had 6 to open up a cell door for, for those inmates. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, most of those inmates was 9 done on day watch, there was no reason for them 10 to move these guys. 11 : Okay. 12 : You understand what I'm 13 saying? 14 : Sure. And then, as far 15 as conversations with 16 • was one of the 17 Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to 18 as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got 19 to make sure that you guys are doing it, you 20 know, like that. But I know for a fact, the 21 only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in 22 my office, was the SHU OIC. 23 : So -- 24 : Was the SHU Lieutenant. 25 Because they're in charge of that unit. So, I EFTA00126743 98 1 disseminate the information and the guidance 2 out to him, and he's supposed to take that 3 guidance -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 and push it forward 6 : For the unit. So, he's 7 in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy 8 in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're 9 in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a 10 cell mate at all times. 11 : Yes. 12 : And he, then, is supposed 13 to take that, and anybody that works within his 14 unit should know? 15 : Yeah. 16 : Okay. What about these 17 Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that 18 are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and 19 Activities Lieutenants -- 20 : Okay. Yeah. 21 : -- people like 22 I think 23 : Yeah. 24 : Should have they known, 25 during these shifts, specifically on the 9th EFTA00126744 99 1 and 10th -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- should have they known 4 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 5 : I believe so. 6 : Okay. 7 : But, like again, I would have 8 to go back through my emails, you know, because 9 a lot of the communication that me and the 10 Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because 11 you can't catch them all on shift. 12 : Sure. 13 : You know, you catch them 14 passing and coming. So, I would put out 15 guidance that way. 16 : But as far as - you said 17 - that everyone knew that he had an orange card 18 and that he was a high visibility inmate, and 19 therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. 20 So, should have they known through that? 21 : Yeah. 22 : And is there any excuse 23 for any of them to say, I didn't know? 24 : I'm not going to put that on 25 the Lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do EFTA00126745 100 1 that. 2 3 : Okay. I'm not going to be that guy 4 to say whatever, whatever. Because I'm going 5 to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it 6 was so much going on 7 : Sure. 8 : -- through that timeframe, 9 that I don't want to put my statement to 10 something like that, that could detrimentally 11 harm one of these Lieutenants. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : I'm not going to say that, 14 hey, I talked to -- 15 : Right. 16 on this day. I'm 17 not going to do that. 18 : And I'm not saying about 19 speaking. I'm saying just the fact that there 20 was an - and again, you're saying that you 21 don't recall specific conversations about the 22 cell mate requirements -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- aside from . But 25 the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00126746 101 1 : Yes. 2 : -- card -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- is that something that 5 just is common knowledge, if someone has an 6 orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got 7 an orange card, he needs a cell mate? 8 : Right. But then again, also, 9 it was high visibility guys on - what do you 10 call that? - on -- 11 : Ten South? 12 no. On G. 13 : Oh, okay. The 14 : On that 15 : -- the one inmate. 16 : -- that one occupancy. So, 17 with the guidance I had put out, I got to give 18 you that e-mail. 19 : Okay. 20 : That e-mail was saying that, 21 hey, these guys with these orange cards, you 22 need to ensure high visibility vigilance. 23 : So - all right - so -- 24 : Ensure that these guys, you 25 know, are alive, and all of this, you know, EFTA00126747 102 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 that. 3 : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 just require 7 : Higher - or higher 8 supervision. 9 : Okay. So, you just need 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, in this 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 : That is correct. 18 all right. So, 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 recall 21 : Yes. 22 : -- and again, what you 23 said -? 24 : And then, again, when I went 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, EFTA00126748 103 1 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would 2 talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute 3 rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure 4 that is done. 5 : Okay. 6 : Making sure this guy -. You 7 know, that's what I did. 8 : Okay. 9 : Because that's what Mr. 10 wanted. So, I did it. 11 : All right. And then, 12 again, just to make sure that I'm not 13 misunderstanding you. You said you talked to 14 specifically about it, but when you did 15 visit the SHU, not only were you telling them 16 to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you 17 also telling them, the people that you did 18 interact with, that he needed to have a cell 19 mate? 20 : Yes. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yes. 23 : On Friday, August 9th - 24 or sorry - when is the last time, can you 25 recall, that you had that conversation with the EFTA00126749 104 1 SHU staff? 2 : I can't remember, sir. 3 : No problem. 4 : I don't remember. Because 5 like I said, that guidance came out between the 6 time of him being upon his release from suicide 7 watch from that last time, to the time during 8 the time that we was doing the vetting for the 9 cell mate. 10 : So -? 11 : So, it was, you know, it was 12 a short period of time that this guidance and 13 these conversations took place. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And then, the reinforcement 16 was when we would walk through the unit and 17 just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this 18 is a high visibility guy, why this guy got 19 trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. 20 Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you 21 know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like 22 me because I was trying to hold people 23 accountable. But I didn't always write people 24 up. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126750 105 1 : That's how I did, I came up 2 like that. I'm trying to help you. People 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 13 : Sure. 14 : It's just words. And then, I 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 19 I'm not doing that. But what I'll tell you 20 was, the relationship between me and the 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 22 move forward through today, you know, the 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 25 I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the EFTA00126751 106 1 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, 2 Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to 3 staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out 4 emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, 5 and I know that staff is going to blow you off. 6 I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out 7 the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to 8 whatever we was doing. It's what it is. 9 : Sure. And just so you 10 know, just to give you a little bit of peace of 11 mind, we're asking you the questions directly. 12 You're not placing blame on anybody. 13 : Right. 14 : So, if we ask you 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- like -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- if they were 19 responsible or something, that's not on you. 20 : Oh, okay. Well, I just 21 wanted to -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- because I didn't 24 understand that. 25 : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00126752 107 1 2 3 4 here - I mean -- was responsible : -- Because like I said, I'm not : I mean, we might say who 5 : Right. 6 : -- or did they drop the 7 ball? 8 : Right. 9 : But that's us asking you 10 a direct question. Not you coming to us, 11 saying, it was this guy's fault. 12 : Right. 13 : You know, we're 14 specifically asking you. So, just 15 : Oh, okay. Yeah. 16 : -- you know? 17 : That's what I didn't 18 understand. 19 : But -. 20 : And that's not what I'm - I 21 mean, I'm not here for that. I'm just 22 : Right. 23 I'm just here -- 24 : I mean, we do have to 25 figure out -- EFTA00126753 108 1 : You know? 2 : -- who did drop the ball 3 here. 4 : Yeah. 5 : But that's not - you're 6 not coming to us. We're coming to you. 7 : Right. I understand. 8 : So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 the SHU." 12 : That is correct. 13 : "In this event, the 14 Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- had oversight that 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : So, what time did - can 21 you look at the - on August 9th - what times 22 that he worked on? 23 : The periods that - this is 24 Friday, right? 25 : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00126754 109 1 : I got - so, basically, I have 2 was not there. 3 : Oh. 4 : He was there on that 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 6 Saturday. 7 : Did he not work 4:00 p.m. 8 to midnight? 9 : He worked 4:00 p.m. - 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 11 : Okay. You can speak. Do 12 you know something different? 13 : No, no, no. I was just 14 clarifying. 15 : Oops, sorry. Can I see 16 the August 9th? 17 : So, who was working on August 18 9th? 19 : August 9th, it appears - I 20 think you got 21 : All right. So, 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 23 : Right. 24 : Well, and then 25 EFTA00126755 110 1 : Yeah. 2 : And then, underneath 3 them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been 4 and then, 5 : Right. 6 : Correct. All right. All 7 right. So, they must have got this wrong 8 somehow. So, it said - so, this is not 9 accurate, when it says in this report - "In 10 this event, the Operations Lieutenant, 11 Lieutenant , had oversight that day and 12 took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who 13 actually had oversight, then, since was 14 out? 15 : That would have been the day 16 watch Operations Lieutenant. 17 : And who was that? 18 The day watch Operations 19 Lieutenant for August 9th would have been - it 20 appears it was 21 : So, would have been 22 responsible? 23 : Right. 24 : And is it your 25 understanding that knew that he needed a EFTA00126756 111 1 cell mate? 2 3 I believe so, yes. : Okay. All right. So, 4 that was incorrect, all this stuff about the 5 thing. And then, it goes on to say, 6 n informally advised his Lieutenants that 7 Epstein was not to be housed alone, and 8 emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- 9 minute checks and unannounced rounds." And 10 that's - you said there was emails about that, 11 as well as when you spoke with your 12 Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, 13 specifically? 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : Correct? All right. And 16 you don't remember the last time you did that, 17 but between August -- 18 : No. 19 between July 30th and 20 August 9th, you at least did it a few times? 21 : Right. 22 : Okay. And you think you 23 hit at least all three shifts between that 24 time? 25 : Correct. EFTA00126757 112 1 : Okay. 2 : I believe I did. Yeah. 3 : All right. Inmates, cell 4 mates, and are typically the people that are 5 assigned to the SHU, are they in those three 6 shifts, or you would have hit the people that 7 are assigned between that time period? So, 8 point being, maybe you don't remember 9 specifically, I had a conversation with that 10 person, or that person, or that person, but if 11 they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty 12 assignment like an OT -- 13 : Right. 14 • type of assignment, 15 but the people that were assigned there -- 16 : Yeah. 17 that was their duty, 18 too -. 19 : So, like, I remember 20 specifically, I hit day watch. 21 : Right. 22 23 remember Mr. • • I or Whatever 24 his name. I remember those guys. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126758 113 1 : I know I spoke to . I 2 know I spoke to different guys. The SHU staff 3 that was always up there. 4 : But you just don't 5 specifically remember talking to Noel? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : She might have been in the 9 background somewhere. 10 : Right. 11 : She could have been there. I 12 don't know. But I don't remember -- 13 : But should have 14 spoken 15 : -- actually -. 16 : -- with her? 17 : Of course. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because that's part of - 20 that's part of the expectations of the unit. 21 If I give you a guidance, your guidance should 22 have been disseminated down to the Officers. 23 : Okay. How about the 24 people - so, we were going to get into this 25 later, but since we're conversing about it now EFTA00126759 114 1 2 3 4 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and I think -- : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- he was gone from the 6 institution by -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- like, 1:50 p.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : Does that sound right? 11 : Something like that. It 12 could have been. 13 : So, who was in the SHU at 14 that time? If he's gone from the institution 15 by, like, 1:50 p.m., who would have -- 16 : So, that would have been 17 : -- who would have -? 18 -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, 19 and your 8:00 to 4:00 staff. 20 : Okay. 21 : So, that would have been 22 : So, I guess let's go from 23 the top. Who would have been the person in 24 charge at the top level? 25 : That, I mean, as far as - EFTA00126760 115 1 2 3 4 that would have been SHU one, because he would have got the notice that he was supposed to move the guys. : And who was that? 5 : And move the inmate. 6 : And who was that? 7 : It was • 8 • . And what time • 9 was he working from? 10 : He was working from 8:00 to 11 4:00. 12 : So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. 13 And those times are accurate on there, and if 14 some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it 15 says zero to 8:00 -- 16 : Right. 17 : -- but we're actually 18 10:00 p.m. -- 19 : And that's true, but the 20 Officers worked those prescribed shifts. 21 : Okay. 22 : The Lieutenants was given 23 those shifts because of their commutes. 24 : Okay. 25 : Some of them were commuting EFTA00126761 116 1 two hours out. So, for them to come from 2 various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, 3 you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I will 4 continue - because that was the previous 5 Administration, the