IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIFTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIFTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 50200BCA028051XXXXMB AD Plaintiff, JEFFREY EPSTEIN, Defendant. DEPOSITION OF LARRY VISOSKI Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:18 - 3:37 p.m. 515 N. Flagler Drive Suite P200 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 Reported By: Wendy Beath Anderson, RPR, CRR, FPR Notary Public, State of Florida Esquire Deposition Services West Palm Beach Office Job 8127542 3527-003 Page 1 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009676 EFTA00159483 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 APPEARANCES: On behalf of the Plaintiff: BRADLEY J. EDWARDS, ESQUIRE ROTHSTEIN, ROSENFELDT, ADLER 401 East Las Olas Boulevard Suite 1650 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33394 On behalf of the Defendant: ROBERT D. CRITTON, JR., ESQUIRE BURMAN, CRITTON & LUTTIER 303 Banyan Boulevard, Suite 400 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 On behalf of the Witness: BRUCE REINHART, ESQUIRE 250 South Australian Avenue Suite 1400 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 ALSO PRESENT: CARA L. HOLMES, ESQUIRE 1220 N.W. 157th Avenue Pembroke Pines, Florida 33028 ADAM D. HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE MERMELSTEIN & HOROWITZ, P.A. 18205 Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2218 Miami, Florida 33160 RICHARD H. WILLITS, ESQUIRE (VIA TELEPHONE) RICHARD H. WILLITS, P.A. 2290 10th Avenue North, Suite 404 Lake Worth, Florida 33461 3527-003 Page 2 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009677 EFTA00159484 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WITNESS: LARRY VISOSKI BY MR. EDWARDS: BY MR. CRITTON: BY MR. EDWARDS: BY MR. CRITTON: I NDEX DIRECT CROSS 6 214 EXH IB ITS REDIRECT RECROSS 220 221 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE PLAINTIFF'S EX. 1 FLIGHT LOG BOOK (MARKED IN PREVIOUS DEPO) PLAINTIFF'S EX. 2 MESSAGE PAD 119 PLAINTIFF'S EX. 3 MESSAGE PAD 119 PLAINTIFF'S EX. 4 COMPLAINT 139 PLAINTIFF'S EX. 5 INMATE VISITOR LOG 161 3527-003 Page 3 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009678 EFTA00159485 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 PROCEED I NGS Deposition taken before Wendy Beath Anderson, Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause. - - - MR. EDWARDS: We're going to put something on the record about -- well, we'll do it this way -- MR. REINHART: Do it at the end, after we get him -- whatever you want. It's your show MR. EDWARDS: Okay. There were don't even think Mr. Willits is aware of this. There was a subpoena duces tecum for this witness, as well as the previous witness, which was another pilot, Dave Rogers, and that duces tecum was to bring the flight logs related from 1998 through 2005. What was produced at the previous deposition were flight logs from 2002 through 2005, and now Mr. Reinhart has agreed to produce the remainder of the flight logs requested, those going from 1998 through 2002. MR. REINHART: Correct. They're pilot logs, not flight logs. There are other records we indicated are corporate records, and with those you have to deal with Mr. Critton. MR. CRITTON: However, with the proviso, too, 3527-003 Page 4 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009679 EFTA00159486 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 that we're going to work out that these records are to be used within the confines of this litigation and not to be spread to the press or anyone else, because they do contain confidential information as to who may have been on the plane and other records of Mr. Rogers, which but for the subpoena would have been only available to the FAA or some other law enforcement agencies. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Is that all you want to put on? MR. CRITTON: Yes. MR. EDWARDS: I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with you. That's something that we'll deal with some other day. MR. CRITTON: Bruce, you'd better produce these records, but there has to be some sort of understanding before -- MR. REINHART: Correct. MR. EDWARDS: I won't do anything until you file whatever you until we work whatever it is out in court. I'll say that on the record, that I'm not doing anything with the records outside of my office until some judge deals with it. MR. REINHART: And for the record, I'll adopt what Mr. Critton said on this one limited occasion. 3527-003 Page 5 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009680 EFTA00159487 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 MR. EDWARDS: All right. Thereupon, (LARRY VISOSKI) having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and testified as follows: THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Can you tell us your name for the record. A. Lawrence Visoski, Jr. Q. And Mr. Visoski, have you ever had your deposition taken before? A. No. Q. Okay. Here's the process: I'm going to ask you questions. You're going to give us answers. Try to give us answers that we all understand and that the court reporter can take down, such as yes, no, or some other verbal answer that we can understand. It's easy when we get in a casual conversation to nod or shake your head, and the court reporter is not writing pictures or anything else. A. I understand. Q. The other thing is, and I've been accused of this in other depositions -- I don't know if it's true or not -- but I need to wait until you finish answering 3527-003 Page 6 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_0000968I EFTA00159488 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 7 the question and you need to wait until I finish asking the question. A. So you're not allowed to interrupt me? Q. And you're not allowed to interrupt me. A. Like I just did? Q. Right. MR. CRITTON: Cara just snickered when you said you've been accused because she recognizes it's true. MR. EDWARDS: I don't know what the meaning of her snickering was. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. But for what it's worth, if you don't understand the question or I've asked a bad question, I don't want you to guess. Give me the best answer to the best of your knowledge and if you need me to rephrase it, I will. A. Okay. Q. A. Okay. Tell me your current address. Q. How long have you lived there? A. Approximately nine years. Q. Okay. Who do you live there with? A. 3527-003 Page 7 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_UXX0682 EFTA00159489 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 Q. A. Q • Who's your employer right now? A. NES, LLC. Q. How long has NES, LLC been your employer? A. I'm guessing. I'd say back 1991. I have to do the math, but 17, 18 years. Q. Has that been your only employer since 1991? A. Yes. Q. And has that been your only source of income since 1991? A. Yes. Q. And what is NES, LLC? A. I don't really know. I mean, it's the company that my check comes from. Q. What do you do for NES, LLC that results in them paying you? A. I am chief pilot for the aircraft and 3527-003 Page 8 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009683 EFTA00159490 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 helicopters. Q. And do you have a specific boss or somebody you answer to at NES, LLC? A. Several people would call to schedule flights from the office, being it either Mr. Epstein or, you <now, I would just get a phone call and they would schedule a trip. Q. Okay. Aside from Mr. Epstein, who else would there be that would call to schedule flights? A. Leslie. Q. Leslie who? A. Leslie Gruff. Q. When's the last time you talked to Leslie Gruff? A. Probably two weeks ago, three weeks ago. Q. And where is she currently? A. I believe in New York, is where I spoke to her on the phone last. Q. What's the telephone number you call to reach Leslie Gruff? A. Q. And what address is Leslie Gruff at? A. Do you mean where the office is located? Q. Correct. A. 3527-003 Page 9 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009684 EFTA00159491 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 Q. And it's my understanding from other depositions that there are also apartments in that building? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Epstein either owns or leases or rents certain of those apartments. Is that your understanding? MR. CRITTON: Form; speculation. THE WITNESS: I'm only speculating. I don't -- to my understanding, I don't know. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Do you know other people that live in that building? A. Well, it would be myself, Dave Rogers -- well, when you say "live,' explain. Q. When you're saying yourself and Dave Rogers -- A. See, we don't live there. I mean, we have -- we would stay there when we would have a trip. Q. Okay. When you would fly up to New York and land in New York, the place where you would stay, is that A. Yes, that's correct. Q. That's also a location you've indicated in this deposition that is the office for NES, LLC? A. Yes. 3527-003 Page 10 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTASO009685 EFTA00159492 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 Q. What floor or suite number is NES, LLC in? A. I believe -- well, I don't know that NES, LLC has an office there. I know that's where Leslie has the phone number where I call. So I don't know for a fact If NES, LLC has an office there. Q. And what suite number, then, would Leslie :ruff sit in to answer that telephone number at A. I think it's III. Q. And when you stay at what suite number or what apartment number do you stay in? A. Q. And how about Dave Rogers, where does he stay? A. I'm guessing, because it's been some time since we've been there, 10B, but don't quote me on it. Q. Who are the other people in that building that you know to stay there on a regular -- fairly regular basis? A. I've seen people in the elevator that, you know, have been on the airplane. Case in point, maybe -• but I don't know for a fact that she lives there, or anybody else for that matter. Q. Okay. When you say you've seen on the elevator -- 3527-003 Page II of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009686 EFTA00159493 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I only assume she lives there. I don't know .or a fact. I'm trying to be honest and factual for So I couldn't honestly say if I knew she lived - here or not. O. Where do you think lives? A. I would think she lives there. Q. You don't have a better location? A. I don't have another location. Q. Anybody else? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. I mean, I'd only be guessing that people live in that building that -- you know, I don't have any facts to prove that they actually live there. I mean, I don't think you want me to guess. Q. Well, NES, LLC, would you say that the owner or controller of that company is Jeffrey Epstein? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't know that for a fact. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Jeffrey Epstein is somebody you've indicated that you've worked for for 17 or 18 years, right? A. Yes. Q. And over the 17 or 18 years you've become personally close with him as well, correct? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't understand how you mean 3527-003 Page 12 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009687 EFTA00159494 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 •close." Define that. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Well, more so than just a pilot that takes him from Point A to Point B? A. That is my job. Q. Right. But you know him on a personal level and that you've had personal conversations that don't necessarily deal with flying from Point A to Point B; isn't that right? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: More specific, meaning we talk about cars. I mean, does that make you a personal friends? BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Have you ever gone to his house to eat? A. No. Q. Have you been to his New York home? A. Yes. Q. How many occasions have you been to his New York home? MR. CRITTON: Object to form. THE WITNESS: We normally pick up luggage in the lobby, so it would probably be quite often. Any time we depart out of New York, we stop by the house and pick up luggage and head to the aircraft. 3527-003 Page 13 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009688 EFTA00159495 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Other than picking up luggage, have you been to his home to visit or socialize with him? A. Not to socialize, no. Q. Have you been to his Palm Beach home? A. To? Q. To Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach house? A. Right. Q. Have you been there? A. Yes. Q. Have you been inside? A. Yes. Q. And how many occasions have you been inside that home? A. The same, as far as picking up luggage, and that would be on a regular basis, you know, for a Aeparture. We wouldn't always go to the house to pick up luggage, but it made it easier for loading the aircraft, getting it done prior to departure. Q. Is that the only reason that you have ever gone to the Palm Beach home over the last 18 years, is to pick up luggage? A. No. Q. What other reasons have you gone there? A. I've set up several home theater equipments, 3527-003 Page 14 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009689 EFTA00159496 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 you know, televisions and such. Q. Is that another hobby or job or something of yours? A. Both. Q. Does he pay you for that? A. Not any more than my salary. Q. What's your current salary? A. At this time, 180,000. Q. And what are you paid $180,000 to do? A. To manage his aircraft. Q. What does that entail? A. Scheduling maintenance. Anything that has to do with any flight, whether it be weather, flight planning, time and distance to and from a location, any logistics involved in running an operation that has aircraft. Q. In addition to the 180,000, does he give you bonuses as well? A. There have been Christmas bonuses. Q. Over the years, you mean, there have been Christmas bonuses? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is 180,000 the most he's ever paid you? No. All right. Were you making -- when was the 3527-003 Page 15 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009690 EFTA00159497 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 last time that you were making an amount different than 180,000? A. Last year. Q. That would be 2008? A. That would be correct. Yeah, we all took a salary cut, I don't know the exact date. It might have been 2008, last year. It was last Christmas we all took a 10 percent salary cut. Q. Do you know why? A. Economic reasons. Q. And who told you that you were going to have to take the salary cut? A. Darren Indyke. Q. And did you ask for an explanation? A. He explained it was due to economic reasons throughout the country. Q. Okay. So in 2008, how much was -- were you being paid by NES, LLC? A. 200,000. Q. And is 200,000 the most that you've ever made from NES, LLC? A. Yes, sir. Q. And on top of that $200,000, did you get a bonus that year as well? MR. REINHART: Which year are you talking 3527-003 Page 16 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009691 EFTA00159498 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 about? MR. EDWARDS: 2008. THE WITNESS: That year, I think we skipped Christmas bonuses that year. The last bonus might have been 2007. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. If you ever got a bonus from Mr. Epstein and I'm only deriving this from you using the term "Christmas bonus." A. Holiday bonus. Q. -- am I correct to assume sorry. Am I correct to assume that if you got a bonus, there was only one and it was at the end of the year, around the holidays? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And how much was the 2007 holiday bonus? A. I'd have to ask my wife, to be honest. I haven't seen my paycheck in 27 years, so I believe it was $10,000. Q. And in 2007 you also made $200,000? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. With a question mark. I'm trying to be as accurate as I can, but yes. 3527-003 Page 17 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009692 EFTA00159499 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 Q. Something pretty close to that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. So with the bonus it was 210,000, roughly? A. Right. Q. Okay. And how long were you making that salary? A. Probably -- he was very religious about giving annual increases, so I would probably say 2006, you know, it was -- we would get increment -- increases of five or $10,000 each year. So I would say 2006. So it graduated, you know, progressive. Q. Okay. Do you remember the progression if we start at 1991? Do you remember roughly what the progression was up through 2007/2008, when you were making $200,000? A. No, I wouldn't know the progression. Q. Okay. Do you remember what you were making from and was NES, LLC the company paying you back in 1991? A. I don't know. I don't remember. Let me say it that way. I don't remember. Q. Okay. When -- how long do you remember NES, LLC being the payer of your check? A. Personally, two years, because I've never seen 3527-003 Page 18 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009693 EFTA00159500 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 my paycheck. So I don't even know what's written on the top of it. Q. That would be something that only your wife would see, I'm assuming? A. You're right, since she probably wouldn't know the answer either, because she's looking at the right column and not the top column. Q. Right. When is the first time that you had heard the name NES, LLC, that company? A. Five, six years, and even questioned what it stood for. And I think to this day I couldn't answer that honestly, what it stands for. Q. Okay. But it's your understanding that the NES, LLC is paying you for the work that you do as a pilot or maintain the planes for Jeffrey Epstein? A. To my understanding, yes. Q. And back in 1991, do you know if it was a different company that was paying you or if it was Jeffrey Epstein directly paying you? A. I don't remember. I mean, I don't. Q. Okay. Throughout your career with -- as a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein, since 1991, has there ever been a time when you believe you were paid directly from Jeffrey Epstein personally versus some company? A. Not to my knowledge, no. 3527-003 Page 19 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009694 EFTA00159501 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 Q. Okay. So whether it was NES, LLC or some other company, it was all of a sudden a company name, to the best of your knowledge? A. Exactly, yes. Q. And back in 1991, do you remember approximately how much you were being paid that year? A. Fifty-five or 60,000, is maybe what I started. Q. Okay. A. You're going back a long ways. Q. Yes. A. I'm trying. Q. Your relationship goes back that far. That's why I chose that year. A. Right. Q • Okay. Did you get bonuses even back that far? A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you remember what your bonuses were approximately? A. 5,000. I mean, that was kind of the -- the starting point. Q. Okay. In addition to monitary bonuses, were - here ever gifts or any other type of compensation that NES, LLC or Jeffrey Epstein provided you? A. Yes. Q. And is that over the span of the 18 years? 3527-003 Page 20 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009695 EFTA00159502 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 A. Yes. Q. Okay. Tell me what some of those items are. A. I remember one specifically was a pool heater. Q. Excuse me? A. A pool heater. Q. When was that? A. 1995-ish. Q. Okay. Why did you get that? A. I had built a pool and I didn't have a heater and he kind of laughed at me saying, "How can you have a pool without a heater?" So he says, "You ought to get a heater.• Q. Where were you when you had that conversation? A. In the airplane. O. How did he know that you had built a pool? A. Just in general conversation. Q. You were having a conversation with Jeffrey Epstein? A. Yes. Q. And this is something that was happening on the airplane, this conversation? A. During the flight. Yeah, it would have been like on cruise or something. Q. Okay. When you say •during the flight," does that -- 3527-003 Page 21 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009696 EFTA00159503 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 A. Again, you're going back a long ways. Q. I understand. We're talking about 1995 right now. A. Yes. Q. You're having a conversation with Jeffrey Epstein. Who is flying the airplane? A. The auto pilot and there's two crew. Q. Okay. So are you back in the back portion or is he up in the cockpit? A. Up in the cockpit. Q. Okay. Jeffrey Epstein sometimes comes up there? A. Just, yeah, in between the two pilot seats. Q. All right. Is that something that was typical, to have conversations like that? A. Mm-hmm. Q. Yes? A. Yes. No nodding. Q. And would those conversations be directed mainly with you or with the other pilots as well? A. Mainly with me. Q. I mean, you've kind of been described as the main guy or the main pilot. Wouldn't you consider that pretty much your role, right? A. Well, that's chief pilot. 3527-003 Page 22 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009697 EFTA00159504 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 Q. But more so than that, if there's going to be a casual conversation about a pool or a pool heater or whatever, it's going to be with you most likely if he's going to be talking to pilots, right? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: Right. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. And you feel like over the years your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has been pretty good? A. Yes. Q. And you have been closer to him over the years as you've grown to know him? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: The same throughout the same year. We never got any closer than 1991 than I am with him now. I'm very professional at what I do and know the line between being professional and thinking you're somebody's buddy. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. So that's not something that you think you are? You don't think you're his buddy? A. No, sir. Q. Do you consider yourself his friend? A. I believe so. Q. Do you think he considers you his friend? 3527-003 Page 23 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009698 EFTA00159505 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 A. I think so. Q. All right. What makes you think that? MR. CRITTON: Speculation. THE WITNESS: He's always been kind and respectful. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Ever invited you to dinner? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever associated or socialized with him during the day at any of his homes? A. Only during a business reason. Q. Okay. What are the other -- are the places that you believe that Mr. Epstein owns? I know we've talked about this Manhattan -- the Manhattan house. I've read the articles about it, the Palm Beach mansion. But what other places are you familiar with that Mr. Epstein owns? MR. CRITTON: Form; predicate, speculation. THE WITNESS: To answer it honestly, I don't know specifically that he owns any of the residences, to be honest. I would only assume that he owns. So if you want me to answer honestly, I don't know that he owns any of the other. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. Well, what would be the basis for your 3527-003 Page 24 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_UXX0699 EFTA00159506 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 assumption that he owns the home in Palm Beach? A. He goes there, but I don't assume -- you don't have to own a house to go to it. Q. And not only does he go there, you're aware that he spends the night there; he resides there sometimes, correct? A. Yes. Q. When he's in Palm Beach, that's where he A. He sleeps. Q. -- sleeps? Right. When he's in New York, do you know where he sleeps? A. No. Q • But you've been to a particular house in New York that's a very large house that we've all read about that you picked up luggage at, right? A. Yes, sir. MR. CRITTON: Form. BY MR. EDWARDS: O. And that home, do you know that -- I know that you're saying that you haven't done a public record search to make sure that Jeffrey Epstein owns it. A. Yeah. Q. But you assume that he does? A. Assuming. Q. That's where he sleeps when he's in New York? 3527-003 Page 25 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009700 EFTA00159507 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I assume. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. That's where his luggage is when you pick it up? A. Doesn't mean he owns it. Q. Right. But that's where it is? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know of anybody else who owns that home in New York? A. No. Q. Okay. Have you been to his ranch in New Mexico? A. Yes. MR. CRITTON: Form. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. How many times have you been to his ranch in New Mexico? MR. CRITTON: Form; predicate. THE WITNESS: A guesstimate, fifty times, only due to the fact that we would fly there. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. And where would you land? A. Depending upon the aircraft, either Albuquerque or Santa Fe. 3527-003 Page 26 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009701 EFTA00159508 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 Q. Are those private airports? A. Public. Q. Public, okay. Are there any private landing places where you would land any airplanes in New Mexico? A. There are. Q. That you have landed -- A. That I have. Q. -- his airplane? A. Yes. Q. Where? A. We have a 4500-foot strip on the ranch. Q. When you say "we," yourself and somebody? A. The company. Q. What company? A. Well, I should say -- I see where you're going with that. The ranch owns -- whoever owns the ranch. The ranch has a runway on it. Q. Okay. And you've landed an airplane on that runway? A. That ranch, yes. Q. How many times do you think you've landed there? A. Ten. Q. All right. And have you been inside his ranch? 3527-003 Page 27 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009702 EFTA00159509 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 A. Yes. MR. CRITTON: Form to the last question. MR. REINHART: Can you clarify, the physical ranch or the residences or the structures on the ranch? MR. EDWARDS: I don't have a good visual appreciation for it. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Why don't you describe it in your words what this ranch that we are talking about looks like. And I've heard it referred to as the 2orro Ranch. Have you heard that? A. I've heard that. Q. That's the ranch we're all familiar with, we're talking about where the runway is and everything else? A. Yes. Q. Describe it in your own words, the landscaping of this ranch. What do we have on it? A. There is a house up on the hill, a large house. Q. How big? A. Big. I've read 40,000 square feet in the paper. Q. Have you been to it? 3527-003 Page 28 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_UXX0703 EFTA00159510 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 A. Yes. Q. Does that seem like it's feasible, approximately 40,000 -- A. I think so, yes. Q. What else do we have on it? A. There is a compound that has kind of motel room type -- they call it bunkhouse. Q. Where's the bunkhouse located? A. At the entrance to the ranch. Q. Okay. And what is that primarily used for? A. For the people that work on the ranch, they reside there. It's also a place where anybody that traveled on the airplane would stay. It's kind of like, you know, a hotel room. Q • And how far is that from the first house that you described, the 40,000 square foot house? A. It's probably 4 miles. Q. Okay. So the Zorro Ranch is a rather large area of property? A. Yes. Q. And how many times -- I know we just talked about how many times you've been in the house, but how many times have you been on that ranch in New Mexico, the Zorro Ranch? A. Thirty to fifty times over the years. That's 3527-003 Page 29 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009704 EFTA00159511 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 a guesstimate. Q. Is that over -- when was the first time that you went to that ranch? A. A guess, I don't know when it was, actually, our first trip, but 1995/'94. Q. Okay. And do you believe Jeffrey Epstein and/or a corporation owned or controlled by him to be the sole owner of that ranch? A. I don't know any of those details. Q. Have you ever talked to Jeffrey Epstein about who owns that ranch? A. No. Q. Do you know of anybody else who may own that ranch? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Other than Jeffrey Epstein, do you know of anybody else who regularly stays there when they're in New Mexico? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Does Jeffrey Epstein stay there when you're in New Mexico? A. He has. Q. And he has a key to the place? A. I don't know if there's a key. Q. One way or another, he gets in, right? 3527-003 Page 30 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009705 EFTA00159512 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 A. Yes, sir. Q. And he sleeps there? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. I assume he does. Q. You assume he sleeps? A. I do. I think. Q. Okay. MR. CRITTON: This is really -- BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Other than the pool heater in 1995, have you ever received any other gifts on top of the compensation from Mr. Epstein? A. I did get land on the ranch to build a house. 0. What do you mean you got land on the ranch? A. He deeded me land to build a home. Q. When was that? A. Ten years ago at least. Q. Do you know if he's ever deeded anyone else in this world land on the ranch to build a home? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Why did he do that? A. We would vacation out there and my wife fell in love with New Mexico and we were looking for property. 3527-003 Page 31 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009706 EFTA00159513 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 Q • And did you talk to him about that? A. Yes. He knew I -- he was aware I was looking for a home and he says, "Well, I have so much land, I could give you a spot to build a home on.' So I built a house. Q. So how long has a home actually been on that property? A. Nine years. Q. And that's a home that you own? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that's a home that was -- when I say "you own it,' is there a mortgage on it or did he give it to you free and clear? A. No, no, I paid for the house. I made payments on it. Q. All right. So what did he actually give you? A. 40-acres of land. Q. That you did not have to pay for? A. You know, I'd have to go back and look. I think it was -- I had to pay something for it. I don't remember. Q. How often have you visited that piece -- that home that you own? A. My wife would spend summers out there with the kids. 3527-003 Page 32 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009707 EFTA00159514 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 Q. Okay. But that's on the Zorro Ranch? A. Yes. Q. So in addition to the 50 or so times you've been to the Zorro Ranch, you've been to your property that's on the Zorro Ranch? A. Yes, which over the years, it's once-a-year visits. So I mean, it is included in the 50 times that I've been there. Q. Okay. And did you have a conversation with him that led to him giving you or gifting you 40-acres of land? A. We talked about it because he knew I was looking for a home out there. Q. Okay. In gifting you that land, did you consider yourself at that point in time to be more than just his pilot, as more of a friend? A. No. You're using the word "gifting." I paid for the land. I don't recall what it was. But you use the word "friend." I don't know that a -- sure, he was a friend. I mean.. . Q. Well, did he give Dave Rogers any land out on the New Mexico ranch? A. No. Q. Okay. When you say you paid for it, I thought that I asked that question, "Did you pay for the 3527-003 Page 33 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009708 EFTA00159515 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 40-acres?" I thought your answer was, "I don't know, I'd have to go back and look." Are you saying now that you did pay for that land? A. I don't remember. If there was a sum of money, it was just for, you know, the legal purpose of a transfer of ownership of the land. Q. Okay. If it was a substantial amount of money, that's something that you would have remembered? A. Oh, exactly. No, it was not a substantial amount. Q. Okay. Do you remember approximately how much money you had to give Jeffrey Epstein for that land? A. I would only be guessing. It might have been five dollars. To my knowledge, I don't remember. Q. Okay. So when I'm saying he gave you the land, he may have actually given you the land? A. Sure. Q. Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, he's never given anyone else land out there? A. Not to my knowledge. MR. CRITTON: Form. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. All right. How big is this house that you built on the ranch? 3527-003 Page 34 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009709 EFTA00159516 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 A. 1800 square feet. Q. Were you ever at that house at the same time when he's at his house that's on that Zorro Ranch? A. Yes. Q. All right. We started back in 1991 with you making around $55,000 a year and that has progressed over time to a point where in 2007 you were making $200,000 a year. I don't want to go through every single year; that would take a really long time. But the progression, was that on a yearly basis normally or after two years or three years? A. Yearly basis. Q. Okay. And would that normally be in increments of? A. $5,000. Q. Okay. You've talked about a couple other gifts that have been given to you from Jeffrey Epstein over the years; one is a pool heater in 1995 and now some 40 acres of land on his New Mexico ranch. Any other gifts you can think about? A. No other gifts. Q. Okay. I don't want to split hairs with you. You obviously thought about that answer before giving it. What other items are you thinking about that he's given to you or cut you a discount on or otherwise that 3527-003 Page 35 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTASO009710 EFTA00159517 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you feel was compensation for you working for him? A. I drive a company car. I mean.. . Q. Okay. What kind of car? A. A Hummer. L LC? 36 Q. You say 'a company car." That's owned by NES, A. No, I think the registration has Zorro Development on it. Q. What is Zorro Development? A. I believe that's the ranch, or at least it has the name of the ranch. I don't know what the entity is. Q. And it's your understanding that that's a company vehicle? A. Yes. Q. And where is that vehicle primarily garaged? A. At my home. Q. In or in the Zorro Ranch? A. No, here in Q. All right. And is there only one company vehicle that you're issued? A. Yes, sir. Q. And is that something that was -- that you did not have to pay for? A. No, it's just something I drive. I mean, it's not titled to me or anything like that. It's just a car 3527-003 Page 36 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009711 EFTA00159518 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that I drive. Q. All right. You've worked for him for 18 37 years. I don't even know how long the Hummer would last, but presumably, that's not the car you've had over the entire 18 years. Have you always had a company car? A. No, I haven't, no. Q. When did you get the Hummer? A. Probably three years ago. Q. Do any other members of Mr. Epstein's piloting team have company cars? A. No. Q. Only you? A. Yes. Q. And do you know how that decision was made to get you a company vehicle? A. No. Q. What do you use that vehicle for? A. To and from the airport. also? Q. All right. Do you use it for personal reasons A. I guess, yes. Q. I mean, that's your primary vehicle? A. Yes, or I drive my wife's car. Q. Which is? A. Type of car? 3527-003 Page 37 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009712 EFTA00159519 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 Q. Yes. A. A Mercedes. Q. And is that something that was also a gift from Mr. Epstein? A. No, sir. Q. What type of Mercedes is that? A. A ML 430, ten years old. Q. All right. Are there any other items company car, the land in New Mexico, the pool heater any other items that Mr. Epstein has given you over time as compensation or reward or anything else? A. No, sir. Q. And your only income is from Mr. Epstein or his companies? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And it's been that way since 1991? A. Yes. Q. How did you meet Mr. Epstein or become involved with him in 1991? A. We heard at the airport that Mr. Epstein was purchasing an airplane when Dave Rogers and myself were living in Columbus, and we had the opportunity to interview with him, and we did and got the job. Q. And this is before he owned the airplane? A. Yes. 3527-003 Page 38 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009713 EFTA00159520 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And which airplane was that? A. The Hawker. Q. Does he still have the Hawker? A. No. Q • How long did he have that plane? 39 A. Five years, guesstimate; four or five years. Q. So sometime in the mid '90s? A. Yes. Q. Did you keep any type of logs or documentation as to who would have been flying on that airplane if you transported any individuals? A. The same logs as you possess now are the flight logs. Q. Okay. A. That's the standard for the industry. Q. So that's something that you kept, or that Dave Rogers kept? A. Dave Rogers. Q. Okay. If there are any documents out there with names of passengers on any of the flights involving planes owned or controlled by Jeffrey Epstein and/or his companies, those would be documents in the possession of Dave Rogers and not yourself? A. Oh, the corporation actually, they belong to. Q. Okay. 3527-003 Page 39 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTASO009714 EFTA00159521 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 MR. REINHART: That was a compound question. You might want to split it in half. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. What documents do you believe exist that indicate names of individuals that have been passengers on Mr. Epstein's airplanes? MR. REINHART: Are we going back all the way from '91 to the present? MR. EDWARDS: Sure. THE WITNESS: You're talking about the Hawker? BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Any airplanes. What documents would there be? A. There would be the same: Flight logs and passenger manifests would exist. Q. And are either of those required? A. The flight log is required for the aircraft to - rack times and landings. Q. And in the flight log, is it required that you designate the names of the passengers? A. No. Q. That's just something that Dave Rogers did on his own? A. Everybody does that. It's more for Internal Revenue. 3527-003 Page 40 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009715 EFTA00159522 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 .7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 Q. Okay. If something happens, they know who is on the plane? A. Exactly, weight and balance. Q. Have you ever kept any flight logs that have names of people on the airplane? A. When you say "kept,' I have filled out flight logs or the passenger manifest, yes. Q. By "kept' I meant maintained to where they're in your possession either on paper or computer? A. We keep -- MR. REINHART: Can you differentiate a flight log from the pilot's log that we showed you earlier? MR. EDWARDS: Okay. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. I'm talking about -- I don't know that it's called a flight log, a pilot's log or any kind of log. A. They are different, yes. Q. Yeah. I'm asking about, have you kept or do you have any documentation that would indicate the names of passengers that have flown on any of Jeffrey Epstein's planes? A. No. Q. Either in the form of paper or on a computer? A. No. 3527-003 Page 41 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009716 EFTA00159523 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 Q. Makes that easy. A. Okay. Q. In 1991, were you the chief pilot? A. No. Q. Somebody else was the chief pilot? A. Yes. Q. Who's that? A. Dave Rogers. Q. All right. At what point in time did you become chief pilot and switched with Dave Rogers? A. Six years ago; five, six years ago. Q. Why? A. Professionalism, technique. Q. What do you mean by that? A. The way Dave would operate an aircraft, Jeffrey knew the difference when I was flying and when Dave was flying. Q. How do you know he knew the difference? A. Just -- Q. He told you? A. Yes. He knew the difference that if he never came up front, he knew who was flying, who landed. Q. And what was the conversation that he had with you that resulted in you becoming chief pilot, switching positions with Dave Rogers? 3527-003 Page 42 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009717 EFTA00159524 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 A. Jeffrey would always critique Dave's flying capabilities, and I tried to help Dave and explain to him what Jeffrey likes and doesn't like. And Jeffrey's also conveyed these likes and dislikes. And Dave maintained continuing with certain piloting techniques that were just not comfortable to passengers. And this went on through the years, and Jeffrey just got tired of it one day. Q. What specifically were Jeffrey Epstein's likes and dislikes with respect to the flight of the plane? MR. CRITTON: Let me put in a form here. But I don't know what this has to do with anything in this case. MR. EDWARDS: I understand that, Bob. MR. CRITTON: I want to use this for some other depositions where we -- we've gone beyond the scope. THE WITNESS: The case in point, the last straw was there was a technique called quiet flying where you would retard the throttles well short of the runway and pretty much glide the airplane in. Well, if you don't do that correctly, you have to spool the engines up just prior to touching down that -- because you're losing air speed and it's an uncomfortable sound and feeling for the passengers 3527-003 Page 43 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009718 EFTA00159525 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 thinking that you're not going to make the runway. And it was a continuous practice of Dave doing that to be neighbor friendly as opposed to being passenger-comfort friendly. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. A. Hence, the transfer of power. Q. Has he ever discussed with you where he wants you to be, whether that is "stay in the cockpit when I have people on the airplane," or don't intermingle with the passengers or anything else? A. He's never stated that to us. MR. REINHART: Could you clarify which "he" you're talking about? MR. EDWARDS: I'm talking about Jeffrey Epstein. MR. REINHART: Okay. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. You understood that? A. Yes. Q. It's my understanding that in the -- well, tell me other than the Hawker, what other airplanes have you flown for Jeffrey Epstein? A. A Gulfstream. Q. Does he still have that plane? 3527-003 Page 44 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009719 EFTA00159526 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 A. Yes, sir. Q. How big of a plane is that? A. Large corporate jet. Q. How long has he had it? A. Fourteen years; 13, 14 years. Q. And other than the Gulfstream, what other airplanes does he have? A. When you say 'he," obviously, these are company-owned -- Q. Jeffrey Epstein or his companies. A. A Boeing 727. Q. Well, I know that's a very large airplane. think that's been described by other people, so I'm not going to have you do that. But there's partitions in that airplane -- in the back rooms of that airplane, right? A. Yes. Q. Several different partitions to where if the pilot comes out of the cockpit, you don't necessarily see all the passengers? A. Yes. Q. That's true? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. REINHART: Keep your voice up so she can 3527-003 Page 45 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009720 EFTA00159527 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 hear you. THE WITNESS: Oh. MR. REINHART: And so Mr. Willits can hear you. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Other than the Gulfstream and the Boeing and the Hawker, what other airplanes has Jeffrey Epstein owned over the years? A. That is it. Q. And currently still owns -- or the companies associated with him own the Gulfstream and the Boeing? A. Yes. Q. And in the past two years, have you flown those two airplanes? A. Just for routine flights to keep them loose or, you know -- you know what I mean. Q. Have those two airplanes been flown by anyone else in the last two years? A. No. Q. Have those two airplanes been flown in the last two years for any reason other than routine maintenance-type flights? A. We've had one -- two flights I think in the past two years. Q. And what were the purposes of those flights 3527-003 Page 46 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009721 EFTA00159528 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 and who was on the flights? A. One flight I believe we went to Sebring and another flight we went to Nassau, Bahamas. Q. And who did you go to Nassau, Bahamas with? A. I'd have to look at the flight log, but I think it was , I believe. I think that was the three passengers, to the best of my knowledge. Q. And it's my understanding that little St. James is an island that Jeffrey Epstein owns or controls? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't know that he owns it. BY MR. EDWARDS: O. Has he ever been to an island called Little St. James? A. Yes. Q. And have you been there with Jeffrey Epstein? A. I've been there when he was there. Q. Have you flown on an airplane with him to that destination? A. No. Q. All right. When you say you've been there when he was there, how did that come about? A. We flew into St. Thomas and then we flew to 3527-003 Page 47 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009722 EFTA00159529 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 Little St. James in a helicopter. Q. And do you fly the helicopter as well? A. Yes. Q. How many helicopters are owned or controlled by Jeffrey Epstein and/or corporations associated with him? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: At this time, one. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. And has that helicopter been flown in the last two years? A. Just for routine maintenance. Q. And when you and -- let's say when and and flew to Nassau, do you know the purpose of that trip? A. No. Q. How long did you stay? A. Five hours. Q. Did you pick anybody up there? A. No. Meaning passengers? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. What happened? You landed the airplane and then what? A. The passengers left. Dave and I went and had 3527-003 Page 48 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009723 EFTA00159530 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lunch. The passengers showed up and we came back. Q. Have you ever stayed at the home that is on Little St. James? A. No. Q. home? 49 Have you known Jeffrey Epstein to stay at that A. I don't know that for a fact. Q. Okay. Do you believe that he is the owner or controller or has some interest in the home or the island of Little St. James? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of that being a fact. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. And you have no belief that that is a fact? A. Exactly. Q. When you say you've been there when he was there, how many times has that occurred? A. Estimating, a hundred times. Q. Okay. A. Trying to give an honest answer. Q. Okay. And in the approximate -- I'm not going to hold you to a hundred times, but in the approximately hundred times -- A. Sure. 3527-003 Page 49 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009724 EFTA00159531 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 Q. -- for what period of time are we talking about? A. During what period of time? Q. Right. A. Let's see, when did all this happen? What, 2007? So eight years prior to whenever he stopped flying. Q. '98/'99? A. Yeah, I guess, yes. Q. I mean, that sounds like a right A. Sounds about right, yeah. Don't hold me to it again. Q. All right. A. You're going back a long way. Q. So from approximately the '98/'99 time frame when Jeffrey Epstein would fly to Little St. James, would you be the pilot? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you say that you've been there -- I thought that you just told me that you've been there the same time he was there, but then I thought the subsequent question was well, were you on the flight with him, and I thought your answer was no. Maybe I misunderstood that. A. No, you said the question "Have you ever flown 3527-003 Page 50 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009725 EFTA00159532 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 to his island?" We never landed on his island. We landed in St. Thomas. Q. Got it. A. I was just trying to be exact. Q. Thank you. A. It's a small island. Q. Okay. So how is it that when Mr. Epstein "ants to go to Little St. James, what is the path that take to get actually to the island of Little St. James? A. I don't understand the question. Q. Well, you just told me you fly the airplane to St. Thomas? A. Right. Q. And then what? A. Then sometimes I would go get the helicopter or he could also take a boat to the island. But normally the helicopter's located on St. Thomas. I'd fire up the helicopter, come pick him up, drop him at the island and I come back to St. Thomas. Q. And when he stays on St. James, you drop him off on St. James. I suppose you're going to tell me you don't know if he stays there or not? A. Exactly. Q. But do you stay -- 3527-003 Page 51 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009726 EFTA00159533 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I don't. I mean -- Q. Well, he either stays there or someone else picks him up in a helicopter or he swims away? A. Correct. Q. Okay. You stay on St. Thomas? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Is there a place that you've stayed on St. James, ever? A. No, I've never. Q. So in the hundred or more times that you've been to the island, is it my understanding that each of those times you've been there to drop off Jeffrey Epstein and/or any passengers and you've immediately left and gone to St. Thomas? A. Yes, sir. Q• 52 You never been inside that home that's located on St. James? A. Yes, I've been inside the home. Q. How many times have you been inside the home? A. I mean, ten, fifteen times. Q. And for what occasion? A. I've set up the theater system that's in the living room. Q. Okay. A. So it would be there to work to hook up a TV 3527-003 Page 52 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009727 EFTA00159534 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 or a stereo. Q • And do you know Les Wexler? A. No, I don't. Q. Have you ever met him before? 53 A. I have met him. Q. Do you know of any relationship between Les Wexler and Jeffrey Epstein? A. I don't know what -- to what extent they have a relationship, no. Q • Do you know if they know one another? A. I don't know that for a fact. They talk to one another, so I would assume. But I don't know to -- Q • How do you know they talk to one another? A. I've seen them speak to one another at the foot of the airplane. Q. All right. Have you ever flown the airplane any of the airplanes with Les Wexler as a passenger? A. No. Q. Have you ever flown the airplanes with - as a passenger? A. Yes. Q. And do you know A. Yes. Q. And for how long have you known 3527-003 Page 53 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009728 EFTA00159535 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 A. I'm guessing, six years. I mean, don't hold me to it. I'm not the greatest on length of times, but six, seven years, I think. Q. How did you meet her? A. I guess I was introduced. She was on a flight of ours Q. You were introduced to her by whom? A. She may have introduced herself. I mean, you're going back a ways. I don't know the official introduction, how it went. Q. And to your knowledge, what is her -- is she associated or affiliated in some way with Jeffrey Epstein? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I would assume so. I don't know to what level or what actually her job description is BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. All right. Well, how many flights have you flown where she and Jeffrey Epstein have been passengers together on one of the airplanes that we've been discussing? A. I'd only be guessing again. Q. We're talking hundreds of flights, though? A. Sure, sure, a lot of flights. 3527-003 Page 54 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009729 EFTA00159536 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 Q. It seems to be -- I mean, you seem like somebody who has common sense. It seems like somebody that knows Jeffrey Epstein? MR. CRITTON: Form. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Correct, A. Yes. Q. All right. And do you believe that there is a business relationship there or a personal relationship there, from your observations? A. I'd only be speculating. When they get on the airplane, my focus is forward and flying safely. So I don't -- you know, I'd only be guessing at either one of those two. Q. Okay. Have you ever socialized with A. No. Q. Other than speaking with her on the airplane, have you spoken with her elsewhere? A. Over the phone, in passing, I mean, walking down the street in New York. I mean, yes. Q. Why would you call or why would she call you? A. She would call me to schedule the aircraft for a departure. 3527-003 Page 55 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009730 EFTA00159537 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 Q. And have you ever called her? A. Yes. O. When's the last time you talked to A. A week ago. O. What was the occasion? A. We were discussing carpet for one of the aircraft. Q. And where was she when you were talking with her? for? A. I don't know. It was over the phone. Q. Did she call you or you call her? A. No, I called her on her cell. Q. Okay. And that's a New York number? A. I don't know. It's on speed dial. Q. Do you have your phone with you? A. Yes. Q. Could you tell me what that number is? A. Sure. Q. Thanks. A. Sure. Q. Which airplane were you discussing carpeting A. Was actually -- actually, it was for the helicopter. Now that I'm thinking about it, the 3527-003 Page 56 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009731 EFTA00159538 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 helicopter. Q. In the last two years, did you tell me the helicopter has flown? A. Yes. O. And where to? A. I have flown the helicopter to Fort Lauderdale on several occasions for maintenance. I've flown it to Miami. And I try to fly the helicopter at least every two weeks just either by myself to run it up to its -- it's important that it keeps moving. Q. Other than maintenance-type flights, have you flown the helicopter in the last couple of years? A. Yes. Q. And who was on the helicopter? A. I flew to Miami with Mr. Epstein. Q. When was that? A. It was a couple weeks ago or a month ago, I think. Q. For what? A. Sorry? Q. For what occasion? A. I think he had a meeting with his attorneys in Miami. Q • Today is October the 15th. Is this during the month of October that you had this flight in the 3527-003 Page 57 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009732 EFTA00159539 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 helicopter with Mr. Epstein? you. A. I'd have to look at the book to be exact for Q. 58 Okay. But it's either the end of September or the beginning of October? A. Yeah. Q. How do you know that he was meeting with his attorneys? A. I believe that he had mentioned that he was meeting his attorneys. Q. Did he tell you why? A. No. Q. Why did he tell you he was meeting with his attorneys? Did you ask him? A. No. Q. Okay. That's just something that he said to you in conversation? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there anyone else on the airplane besides you and Mr. Epstein? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. Q. who? A. 3527-003 Page 58 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009733 EFTA00159540 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. How long have you known A. I don't know, five years. A guess again, four, five years. Q. Do you know what her relationship is, if any, with Jeffrey Epstein? A. I do not know. Q. Do you know if she knows Jeffrey Epstein? A. I would assume so. They talk. I would imagine she knows him. Q. And how many times has she been on the airplane or the helicopter on flights at the same time as a passenger with Jeffrey Epstein? A. Many. I'd have to look at the logs. Q. Hundreds of times? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: Sure. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. If you were going to, as somebody who has been Jeffrey Epstein's pilot for 18 years, tell me today who the five closest people are to Jeffrey Epstein, would be one of them? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I'd only be guessing and speculating. I have no idea. 59 3527-003 Page 59 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009734 EFTA00159541 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. Well, as his pilot and the person who travels with Jeffrey Epstein on the majority of his flights, who are the people who travel most frequently with Jeffrey Epstein? A. I'd have to look at the logs. MR. REINHART: Can we get a time period? BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. In the last ten years, which people travel most frequently with him? A. I'd have to look at the flight logs to give you an accurate answer. Q. You can't give me one single name of somebody who you would say is a frequent flyer? A. Q. A. Yes. Q. Anybody else? A. Q. A. Yeah. Q. Okay. Anybody else? A. Just mainly those two. Q. How about Ghislaine Maxwell? A. Not for some time. 3527-003 Page 60 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009735 EFTA00159542 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 Q. What's your understanding between the relationship of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein? A. I don't really know. Q. All right. So when you say you're guessing that and know or are associated with Jeffrey Epstein, that guess is being made on the -- with the observation that they have been frequent flyers with Jeffrey Epstein on more than hundreds of flights on his private plane? A. Yes, that's what I'm basing it on. Q. And do you know where is staying these days? A. No. Q. Do you know what car she's driving these days? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. Do you know if she's living with Jeffrey Epstein these days? A. I don't know that. Q. Do you know how met Jeffrey Epstein? A. I don't. Q. Were you on an international flight bringing her into the country from some other country at any time? A. I don't know. 3527-003 Page 61 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009736 EFTA00159543 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 MR. REINHART: Can we clarify? You mean with Mr. Epstein or -- MR. EDWARDS: No. BY MR. EDWARDS: 0. Did you ever bring from some foreign country into the United States? A. I'd have to look at the log books, honestly. Q. That's not something you remember? A. No. I mean, she -- I think she's been on Europe trips with us, and I think she's returned from Europe with us, but I could not say that honestly. Q. On this recent helicopter flight with and Jeffrey Epstein, did you talk with them during that flight? A. No. Q. Where did the flight go from? And obviously, it landed in Miami, but where did you leave from? A. West Palm Beach. Q. And did and Jeffrey Epstein arrive together? A. You know, I don't remember. I was out at the helicopter and I think they both started walking up. So I don't know if they came separately or not. I was already at the helicopter. Q. How long is that flight from Palm Beach to 3527-003 Page 62 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009737 EFTA00159544 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 Miami? A. Twenty-five minutes. Q. And did they talk to one another during that flight? A. No. Q. They were both completely silent during that flight? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Is that typical when they are on flights together, especially with the helicopter, where you're in pretty close quarters, that they would abstain from speaking to one another? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: Yeah, it would be typical. It's very noisy and communicating in a helicopter is, you know, not that comfortable. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Over the last five or six years that you have known or been familiar with , have you heard her and Jeffrey Epstein conversing with one another? A. I've heard them conversing, but if you ask me what they had said, I could say it -- I wouldn't even know what they had said to each other. I've seen them talking to each other. 3527-003 Page 63 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009738 EFTA00159545 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 Q. But you don't remember a single specific conversation between Jeffrey Epstein and A. An honest answer, no. Q. Okay. And the same for ; have you seen or have you seen Jeffrey Epstein speak with A. I've seen him speak with her, yes. Q. Can you tell me a single specific conversation that you have overheard between Jeffrey Epstein and A. One thing that comes to mind would be make sure we have Oreo cookies on the airplane. It would be something completely nonchalant. Q • Okay. And do you know or have reason to know of any employment relationship between and Jeffrey Epstein? A. I have no knowledge of any of that. Q. Do you know if works for Jeffrey Epstein? A. I do not know. Q. Do you know if schedules massages for Jeffrey Epstein? A. I have no idea. Q • Has Jeffrey Epstein ever indicated to you that 3527-003 Page 64 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009739 EFTA00159546 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 he is fascinated or infatuated or appreciates or loves or likes massages? A. I have no knowledge of that. Q. All right. How about Ghislaine Maxwell, has she ever talked to you about massage therapy or have you ever overheard her talking about that? A. No. Q. You certainly read the papers over the last couple of years, correct? A. Not on my top ten list. I mean, I've read a couple articles, but I'm not one to focus on that so much as some people would. Q. Okay. When the investigation about Jeffrey Epstein came about, the criminal investigation -- you're aware that's what I'm talking about, right? A. That was last year? Q. Well, it was a couple years ago. A. Right, okay. Q. Did you speak with Jeffrey Epstein about that investigation? A. No. Q. Were you told not to speak with him about that investigation? A. I think we knew ourselves that we weren't -- it wouldn't be proper to even bring it up. 3527-003 Page 65 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_OYX0740 EFTA00159547 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right. When you read in the newspapers ehe allegations that Mr. Epstein was involved with numerous underage girls for sexual reasons, were you surprised? A. I didn't believe it. Q. Do you believe it today? 66 A. I don't believe it. Q. You don't believe that Jeffrey Epstein was involved with underage girls in a sexual way? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: You're asking for my opinion, and I don't think my opinion is relevant in that matter. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. I think it's relevant. Can you just tell me whether today you believe that Jeffrey Epstein has engaged in sex with underage girls? MR. CRITTON: Form; speculation, irrelevant, always. THE WITNESS: It's irrelevant. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. I need an answer. A. I don't believe he had sex with underage women. Q. Or engaged in any sexual acts with underage 3527-003 Page 66 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009741 EFTA00159548 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 women? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. You think that this is just a story that a bunch of underage women have made up? A. Speculation. MR. CRITTON: Objection. Now it's argumentative. Who gives a darn what he thinks one way or another? If he has personal knowledge -- MR. EDWARDS: You're objecting to the form? MR. CRITTON: It's argumentative. MR. EDWARDS: You're objecting to the form? MR. CRITTON: Yes. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Is that something that you believe that a bunch of women -- some of which know each other, some don't, some of which have been on the airplane and some which haven't -- made this up, that Jeffrey Epstein engaged in some sexual conduct with them? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: What I believe doesn't matter in this case, does it? 3527-003 Page 67 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009742 EFTA00159549 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. I need an answer. Do you believe it? Do you believe these girls made this up? MR. CRITTON: Form. MR. REINHART: I'm going to instruct him not to answer. Move on. MR. EDWARDS: Is there a privilege that we're asserting? MR. REINHART: No, it's irrelevant. It's harassment and not likely to lead to discoverable evidence. MR. EDWARDS: I'm going to put on the record right now that it is -- we are allowed discovery into a RICO count. We are also allowed discovery into the intent of Mr. Epstein in developing a criminal enterprise designed to sexually exploit and sexually abuse underage girls. We believe that in doing so, he associated intentionally with people of similar beliefs that sex with underage girls is okay, and that there have been many discussions with this witness, as well as many other witnesses with -- to insure his protection from law enforcement that they not answer these specific questions. And thus, the opinions and beliefs of all of these witnesses that we are 3527-003 Page 68 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_UHK0743 EFTA00159550 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 alleging associated with this criminal enterprise are certainly reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. And if you're still instructing the witness, based on that proffer, not to answer any of these questions, I'm going to continue to ask the questions and you can instruct him not to answer and we can go to the Court. MR. REINHART: My response is to his opinion whether people making allegations in this case are colluding or making up a story is irrelevant to what you just said. So I am going to instruct him not to answer any question that goes to his opinion of someone else's motivation or the truth of facts to which he has no knowledge. So yes, I'm instructing him not to answer. MR. CRITTON: Let me add in my part, is that I think -- you're certainly not only capable to ask questions with regard to what his personal knowledge is, and if he knows something or he has reasonable basis for it; certainly you are entitled to that information. I think you've asked those questions and he's given you straightforward answers as to what he knew or what he didn't know under those circumstances. And as to what his 3527-003 Page 69 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009744 EFTA00159551 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 thoughts are on something which he has no factual basis or even an assumption to know one way or another is irrelevant. That's ultimately for a fact-finder in this case. While it's interesting, it's argumentative and I don't think he's -- I mean, do it on a question-by-question basis. If he has knowledge, that's great, but to argue your case with this witness or any other witness doesn't serve a purpose and I think is, you know -- I think it's not a good use of our time, I'll put it that way. But you know, you can go ahead and ask. MR. EDWARDS: I can ask the question and if the witness is being instructed not to answer, we'll let a judge decide whether he needs to answer the question and whether it's discoverable or not. MR. REINHART: Absolutely. Make your record. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Jeffrey Epstein engaged in sexual activity with underage women? A. I have no reason to believe. Q. Okay. So as you sit here today, based on your 18 years of knowledge, experience and observation of Jeffrey Epstein, is it your belief that he has not had sex or engaged in sexual activity with underage women? 3527-003 Page 70 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009745 EFTA00159552 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 A. It's an opinion, and I believe that he has not. Q. Okay. Isn't it true that at some point in time you learned that Jeffrey Epstein has -- strike that. MR. CRITTON: When you ultimately get to a good place to break, will you let us know? MR. EDWARDS: Let's break now. (A break was had at 11:28 a.m.) BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. All right. Eighteen years of being a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and in terms of being able to name somebody that you would say you've observed with Jeffrey Epstein and would classify that person as Jeffrey Epstein's friend, can you name anybody? A. ; just people that we see routinely on the airplane. Q. That's people you see routinely in the last five to ten years, right? A. Yes. Q. Prior to that time, anybody that you've noticed as Jeffrey Epstein's friend may be Ghislaine Maxwell? A. What time frame? Q. Is that a person that at some point in time 3527-003 Page 71 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_ONX0746 EFTA00159553 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 72 would classify as Jeffrey Epstein's friend? 2 3 4 5 A. I would classify it. I don't know if it's true. Q. But that's only because they were on the airplane together? 6 I A. Yes. 7I Q. Do you know what Jeffrey Epstein does for a 8 living in your 18 years of observing and talking with 9 Jeffrey Epstein? 10 A. No. 11 Q. No idea? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Ever asked him? 14 A. No, actually. 15 0. Ever been curious? 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. Ever done anything to satisfy that curiosity? 18 A. If you mean Google it, not really, actually. 19 I mean, I really have not. 20 Q. Okay. So in 18 years of traveling and being 21 the pilot and driving -- and taking this person, Jeffrey 22 Epstein, from one property in New York to New Mexico and 23 Florida and around the world, you have no idea what he 24 does in terms of how he makes money? 25 A. No, sir. 3527-003 Page 72 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009747 EFTA00159554 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 Q. I was produced this flight log -- tell me if I'm using the wrong term. What is this called, this book that I've been provided by Dave Rogers? A. I've never seen that book. Q. I'll let you see it. I don't know that it was always in a book, so maybe that's why you haven't seen it. Tell me what we're looking at. A. Well, judging with the name at the bottom, I believe this is Dave's flight log, log book. Q. I didn't know if it was called a flight log. A. Pilot log book, how's that? That's the appropriate name. Q. It was marked as Composite Exhibit 1 in Roger's deposition, as indicated by the exhibit sticker. We'll mark it the same in your deposition as well. MR. CRITTON: Why don't you refer to it as his? MR. EDWARDS: Fine. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. It's the pilot log book of Dave Rogers? A. Yes. Q. And the years provided in this book are 2002 through 2005; I can represent that to you. I'm going to ask you about certain people that David Rogers wrote down as being on the airplane and I want to ask you if 3527-003 Page 73 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009748 EFTA00159555 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 you know who they are. This person right here is It seems like she flew on numerous flights. Do you know who that is? A. No. I heard the name, but I don't know who that is. Q. All right. Is that somebody that you remember seeing on any of the flights that you were on? A. What year are we talking about here? I don't remember. Q. Well, this is January 2002. You'd probably know how to read this book a little bit better than me, so I don't know. A. He keeps his a lot more current, so I know the name. If she walked in here right now, I would probably look right through her, to be honest. Q. Do you know what affiliation or relationship she had with Jeffrey Epstein? A. No. Q. Okay. There are various -- each row I'm told by David Rogers is a different flight and it indicates where it takes off from and where it lands, et cetera. There's a lot of other information, especially over on this side of the page that I'm not familiar with, nor do I need to be. A. Right. 3527-003 Page 74 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009749 EFTA00159556 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 Q. But it's evident that the plane is being used, at least for this time period, January of 2002 through 2005, on a fairly regular basis. I mean, we're looking at January 6th, 11th, 13th, 13th, 14th, right? A. Uh-huh. Q. I mean, is that something that you would say accurately reflects the amount of use of Jeffrey Epstein's planes? A. Yes. Q. So he travels quite frequently? A. Yes. Q. right? And he travels with many different people, MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. CRITTON: Can I ask one question? I was wondering what happened, who has possession of now what's the original Exhibit No. 1 of Mr. Rogers' deposition? Did you retain it? MR. REINHART: The actual book itself? MR. EDWARDS: The court reporter took it, right? MR. CRITTON: The one marked as an exhibit, did you keep that? MR. REINHART: This is it. 3527-003 Page 75 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009750 EFTA00159557 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 $ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 MR. EDWARDS: This is it? MR. CRITTON: Who took it from the deposition the other day? MR. EDWARDS: I have this one right now. MR. REINHART: That's the only copy? MR. EDWARDS: Okay. MR. CRITTON: So you took the original? MR. EDWARDS: Apparently. It has the original sticker. MR. CRITTON: When I say "the original," the original copy. Would you have someone recreate what you've got and send it to us so we have it? MR. EDWARDS: Sure. In fact, why don't I wait until I get the whole thing and I'll copy all the pages and send it to you instead of piecemeal. MR. HOROWITZ: You mean before the transcript comes? MR. EDWARDS: We can copy it. MR. CRITTON: If you give it to me, I'll copy it and send it back to you. MR. REINHART: I have a copy. It just doesn't have the exhibit sticker on. MR. EDWARDS: That's what was told to me the other day, that's why I took it. MR. CRITTON: I want something -- I just don't 3527-003 Page 76 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009751 EFTA00159558 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 want to -- if you give me a copy, I'll put a sticker on it. MR. REINHART: Or just copy the page that has the exhibit sticker on it. MR. CRITTON: Sorry. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Like on this flight, we have "JE." I'm assuming that's Jeffrey Epstein, correct? A. Yes, I'll assume. Q. "GM," Ghislaine Maxwell, right? A. Yes. Q. , A. I would assume. Q. I mean -- okay. And then this name, do you recognize that person, A. Never heard it. Q. And then A. Yes. Q. You've heard that name? A. I've heard the name. Q. Not sure who that is, though? A. No. O. There's only one, two, three, four, five, six people on that flight? A. Uh-huh. 3527-003 Page 77 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009752 EFTA00159559 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 Q. That's pretty typical of the amount of passengers that you would have on a flight? A. It varied, sure. Q. Okay. But it varied between -- if we look a few lines down, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell were the only two passengers. Certainly there were flights like that as well, right? A. Mm-hmm. Q. And so it varied from having one or two people to six or seven people, right? A. Yes. Q. What's the most people that you remember traveling on any of Jeffrey Epstein's airplanes? A. Twenty-five. Q. Okay. That would be a rarity, wouldn't you say? A. Oh, yeah. Q. Because I've looked through this log. I haven't seen any place where there were 25, but there are lines that have maybe eight or nine people listed. A. Right. Q. Let's see. There's a flight from January 15th sorry, January 17th, January 20th and January 22nd of 2002 that all had . That doesn't serve to refresh your recollection as to who 3527-003 Page 78 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009753 EFTA00159560 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that is, does it? A. No. Q. Okay. Do you know what the purpose of her 79 being on the airplane flight along with Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and would be? A. No. Q. Okay. Do you know how it comes about that gets on that flight? How does she even know there's a flight available? A. I don't know. Q. All right. Well, let's go down to somebody that we may all know a little bit better. February 9th, 2002, there's a flight that has Bill Clinton, four Secret Service agents and then instead of listing names or initials or anything else, it's just listed as two males, one female, Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and I forget who Dave Rogers told me "AP" is. Do you remember who that is? A. No. Q. Okay. Either way, how is it that someone like Bill Clinton gets on a Jeffrey Epstein flight? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Do you know before the flight takes off that 3527-003 Page 79 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009754 EFTA00159561 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 Bill Clinton's going to be a passenger on the flight? A. Yes. Q. And how do you know? How do you get that information? A. The day before I'd get a phone call from, say, saying we're leaving tomorrow going to wherever, and sometimes she'll say who's going, sometimes she won't. On a case where President Clinton would be on board, we would put a little extra catering on board or do that little extra TLC to the aircraft. Q. If it's leaving -- this says it's leaving from MIA and where is it landing? A. HPN I believe is White Plains. Q. Okay. Do you remember that flight? A. I remember being on it. Q. Well, I mean, if you look through here, obviously you had Bill Clinton on the airplane ten or twenty times, right? A. Yeah. He's my main focus. I remember him being on the aircraft, sure. Q. Do you remember him being on the airplane with younger girls? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: No. 3527-003 Page 80 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009755 EFTA00159562 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Okay. Do you know what his relationship was with Jeffrey Epstein? A. No. Q. Do you know if they were friends? A. Assuming. Q. But you're assuming why? Just because he's on his plane? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. So you assume that the people that are listed on here are friends of Jeffrey Epstein's and that's why they are riding on his plane? A. I'm speculating. Q. I'm just not familiar with the -- because I've never been on a private flight -- with the manner in which you go about getting on one of these flights. I mean, you have to, I guess, know that Jeffrey Epstein has a plane, that it's going from a destination that you are at and want to go to, and that it's available and those kind of things. Can you tell me, enlighten me -- A. Well, it's not publicly offered, no. It would be no different than you jumping in your car and knowing you're going to the mall. I mean, it's not public information, you know, where planes are coming to and from, and you don't put your name out there to get 3527-003 Page 81 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009756 EFTA00159563 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 onboard a flight. Q. Does Jeffrey Epstein charge these people as passengers? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. Are these people such as Bill Clinton, does that mean that Bill Clinton called or somebody affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein to get on the plane or that Jeffrey Epstein called Bill Clinton and asked do you want a ride? MR. CRITTON: Form; predicate. THE WITNESS: I have no idea. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. No idea? A. No idea whatsoever. Q. Joe Pagano, do you know who that is? A. Yes. Q. What's his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, or what was it back in February -- sorry, March 17th of 2002, when he and and Jeffrey Epstein and Todd and one female were on this flight? A. I don't know to what extent or what his relationship is. He just was a passenger on the airplane. Q. Okay. And the next day -- sorry, two days later on the 19th of March, Bill Clinton flies again, 3527-003 Page 82 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009757 EFTA00159564 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 83 this time with Doug Band, three Secret Service agents, Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and . Do 3 you remember that flight? 4 A. Where did we go? 5 0. Starts in JFK. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Where is that? 8 MR. CRITTON: Do you have a date? 9 MR. EDWARDS: March 19th, 2002. 10 THE WITNESS: EGGW I believe is Luton, 11 England. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Okay. Do you remember flying to England? 14 A. I do remember flying to England. I just don't 15 remember that trip. What airplane were we in? We were 16 in the Boeing. 17 Q. Do you remember the purpose of the trip? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know who Doug Band is? 20 A. I heard he's Clinton's, how would you say, 21 assistant. I mean, I've seen that in the newspaper, 22 seen it on CNN. 23 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear that Doug Band and 24 Ghislaine Maxwell were together, even for a day or a 25 night? 3527-003 Page 83 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFFA_00009758 EFTA00159565 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 .7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 A. No. Q. Did you ever hear that Doug Band and Ghislaine Maxwell were the people attributed to introducing Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. All right. There's another flight here on January -- I can't read this upside down. Maybe it says May A. Looks like. Q. 22nd, 2002. Again, with President Bill Clinton, Can you tell me who and are? A. I don't remember. Q. Would you know them if you saw them? A. Probably not because the names don't even ring a bell. Q. All right. And then there are plenty of flights, many of flights where Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and are the primary passengers, or at least are some of the passengers on the flights, correct? A. Mm-hmm, yes. Q. And still, as you sit here, you being the 3527-003 Page 84 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009759 EFTA00159566 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 pilot of these flights, you're not sure what their relationship is or whether any of them were socially connected in any real way? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: No. When you're flying the airplane, there's a lot more going on than passengers' relations. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q • All right. You remember this person, , are you familiar with her at all? A. I remember the name, that's it. Q. What do you think her relationship is to Jeffrey Epstein? A. No idea. MR. CRITTON: What date are you on, Brad? MR. EDWARDS: Oh, sorry. I am at June 21st, 2002. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. That's not somebody that you specifically remember? A. Mm-mm, no. Q. No? Is that somebody that you think was a regular flyer for any period of time in Jeffrey Epstein's life? A. Not a regular. 3527-003 Page 85 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009760 EFTA00159567 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 Q. Okay. Jean Luc Brunel, is that a name that you know? A. Yes. Q. How do you know that name? A. Only because it's a unique name and his attire is very unique. So you remember certain things. So I know he who that is. Q. Do you know what he does? A. No. Q. Do you know his association with Jeffrey Epstein, if any? A. No, I don't know what the relationship is. Q. Have you ever heard of him owning or running or managing a modeling company? A. I have seen that in the paper a few years back. Q. Okay. Other than seeing it in the paper, have you ever talked to Jean Luc Brunel or Jeffrey Epstein about owning or running or managing a modeling company? A. No. Q. Do you know if Jeffrey Epstein's affiliated with the modeling company that's owned, run or managed by Jean Luc Brunel? A. No, I have no idea. Q. And seeing that this is a flight now, that 3527-003 Page 86 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009761 EFTA00159568 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 we're referring to the same flight on June 21st of 2002, that includes Jean Luc Brunel, , Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, -• those are the passengers of this flight, does that serve to jog your memory as to who is? A. No. I mean, you see how frequently we fly. I mean, it's -- the passengers in the back are so far removed from an operation of commanding an airplane like that, it's nothing that sticks in your head. Q. And you as the pilot, is there any way that you would know what's going on in the back of the airplane? A. No. My concerns are all on the cockpit. MR. CRITTON: Brad, the last one that you mentioned, was that the same date, June 21st, '02? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. There's another name here that I was going to ask you do you know. June 23rd, 2002, are you familiar with that name? A. No. Q. Also on the same flight with Jean Luc Brunel. That doesn't help to jog your memory either, right? A. No. Q. That's somebody that you remember as a 3527-003 Page 87 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009762 EFTA00159569 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 frequent passenger? A. Who are you referring to? Q. A. No. Q. Dr. Jarecki, is that somebody that you remember flying? A. I know the name. He may have been on the airplane once or twice. I'm guessing only. Q. Do you remember meeting him? A. Yes, I have met him. Q. Do you remember his purpose for being on the airplane? A. No, sir. Q. Amanda Venaro, do you remember her purpose for being on the airplane? A. No. MR. REINHART: Can we get a date? MR. EDWARDS: I was asking him if he remembered Amanda Venaro. I wasn't referring to a specific flight. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. You don't remember her being on the flight? A. I don't remember the name. Q. Me showing you the flight isn't going to jog the memory? 3527-003 Page 88 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009763 EFTA00159570 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 A. No. The name that would launch it first -- MR. CRITTON: Could I ask you a question? You have the original exhibit marked at the deposition. It looks like it's been highlighted. MR. EDWARDS: I highlighted it. MR. CRITTON: Oh, okay. So you've highlighted the original exhibit that's marked for the deposition? I just want the record to reflect that. MR. EDWARDS: Yeah. MR. CRITTON: Okay. Thank you. MR. EDWARDS: At the time I highlighted it I didn't realize I was holding on to the original exhibit. I didn't realize that until you just pointed that out. MR. CRITTON: I've noticed that. MR. EDWARDS: So now when I give it to you, I'm giving you my work product as well. I don't see how this works against you, but anyway. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Melissa Stall, is that a name that you remember? A. No. Q. Okay. And then Jean Luc Brunel is somebody who I noticed flew relatively frequently, so is that why 3527-003 Page 89 of 227 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00009764 EFTA00159571 Larry Visoski October 15, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 you -- that name jogs your memory a little better than some of these other people? A. He dresses uniquely. Q. In what way? A. Just loud clothes, so something that you would remember, that's all. Q. Do you know his role in Jeffrey's life? A. No. Q. Ever heard that he is affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein because they both have a sexual attraction to underage girls? MR. CRITTON: Form. THE WITNESS: You're making an assumption on