From: "Jeffrey E." <[email protected]>

From: "Jeffrey E." <[email protected]> To: Joscha Bach Subject: Re: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 16:52:50 +0000 in a two player game what if one player BELIVES there is an observer but there is not. the payoff matrix should change. ? On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Joscha Bach < > wrote: > On Aug 24, 2016, at 06:09, jeffrey E. <[email protected]> wrote: > do you believe a bunch of chemicalls has a goal, ? It depends a bit on how we use the words; do you think that a bunch of chemicals can do mathematics or be money? I think it makes sense to say "yes". A goal is part of a causal model that we use to describe a agent that can commit to pursuing a world state. Outside of this model, the word has no meaning. Within the model, it makes the behavior of some bunches of chemicals somewhat predictable on a particular level. I think most chemical systems do not have goals, in the sense that we cannot meaningfully ascribe to them that they have agency. For that, they need - some kind of preference system, - a way to determine and represent world states, - a way to make decisions for world states based on the preferences, - a way to act on decisions so that the preferred world state becomes more likely. For instance, a corporation is an agent in this sense, and a cat is too. Perhaps George Church would say that cells can have goals, too. A Roomba cleaning robot is a particularly good example: when it cleans the room, it has no goal, because it has no model of the cleanliness of the room, and no preference to make it cleaner. We can test for this: if its dirt container is full, it will happily make a clean room more dirty, because it just moves randomly around while rotating its brushes. The cleaning is an emergent result. On the other hand, when it runs low on battery, it will explicitly search for its power station and drive there to recharge, and after that, it will continue cleaning. It explicitly represents the charging state, and when starved for power, it commits to a goal that makes it direct its actions on entering that state. Valentino Braitenberg, in his classical book "vehicles", looks at different kinds of cybernetic feedback systems, and at different kinds of agency that can be implemented in them. My own thinking is mostly shaped by the ideas of social agency, by the Italian computer scientist Cristiano Castelfranchi, and by Aaron Sloman. > isnt that in your words just one of the stories we tell ourselves.? why is it not merely chemicals I would say that a goal is part of a "software specification". Nature can get a bunch of chemicals to enact this specification. But it can also be done mechanically, electrically or socially. > . like in a magnetic field forced to line up with other chemcilas in the vicinity, . more hike magnets lining up. EFTA00820169 Do you think there is a lowest level, and that it makes sense to speculate what it is? Fundamental physics explores the idea of the lowest causally closed level. I made an online survey during the FQXi conference, and got 49 responses from the participants. 18 believed that the universe is fundamentally just mathematics or information (8 of those think it is just information). 19 believe in a material universe (4 of those think only space or spacetime exists). 15 respondents hold that a conscious observer or God is necessary (some of them overlap with the materialists). For what its worth, the idea that only information is real does not seem to be especially strange. What is your view/intuition? You are right when you say that my view is strongly influenced by being a computer scientist. Once I made the leap that our observations of the world are fundamentally not different from what a computer game player can observer on his screen, and that we can produce every conceivable sequence of observations via a computer program, I saw no way out again, especially after I got to see observers/minds as computer programs, too. Everything we know about ourselves, we know through sequences of observations, too, and observations are sets of discernible differences (= bits of information). Cheers, Joscha please note The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved EFTA00820170