UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA CASE NO. 08-CIV-80119-MARRA/JOHNSON JANE DOE NO. 2, Plaintiff, -vs- JEFFREY EPSTEIN, Defendant. Related cases: 08-80232, 08-08380, 08-80381, 08-80994, 08-80993, 08-80811, 08-80893, 09-80469, 09-80591, 09-80656, 09-80802, 09-81092, DEPOSITION OF JANE DOE #7 - VOLUME I (videotaped) Monday, March 15, 2010 10:02 - 6:49 p.m. 250 Australian Avenue South Suite 1500 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 Reported By: Rachel W. Bridge, RMR, CRR Notary Public, State of Florida (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107798 EFTA01107799 Page 2 APPEARANCES: On behalf of the Plaintiffs in related eases Not 08-80069, 08-80119,08-80232, 08-80380, W40181,0IWW993,011-80994: ADAM D. HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE MERMELSTETN & HOROWITZ, P.A. 5 18205 Biscayne Boulevard Suite 2218 6 Miami, Florida 33160 Telephone: 305/931-2200 7 On behalf of the Defendant Jeffrey Epstein: 9 ROBERT D. CRITION. JR., ESQUIRE BURMAN, CIUTFON, LUTHER & COLEMAN 10 393 Banyan Boulevard Suite 400 11 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 Telephone: 561/842-2820 12 13 14 Also Present: Sasha Quimby. videographer 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 PROCEEDINGS Deposition taken before Rachel W. Bridge, Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the 15th day of March, 2010. The time is 10:02 a.m. This is the videotape deposition of lane Doe #7 in the matter of' Jane Doe number two versus Epstein. This deposition is being held at 250 Australian Avenue South, West Palm Beach, Florida. My name is Sasha Quimby. Pm the videographer representing Visual Evidence, Inc. Would the attorneys please announce their appearances for the record. MR. HOROWITZ: Sure. My name is Adam Horowitz, counsel for the witness, plaintiff. MR. CARTON: Bob Critton for Jeffrey Epstein. Thereupon, (JANE DOE #7) having been first duly sworn a affirmed, was examined and testified as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 INDEX WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Jane Doe 47 By Mr. Critton 5 EXHIBITS EXHIBIT Defendant's 1 Defendant's 2 Defendant's 3 Defendant's 4 Defendant's 5 Defendant's 6 Defendant's 7 Defendant's 8 Defendant's 9 PAGE 233 233 233 263 268 274 280 294 301 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Please tell me your hill name. A. lane Doe 7. Q. Where do you live, ma'am? A. I live in Orlando. Q. I understand that Where, give me your address, A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. now. Q. A. Page 5 Is that apartment or a home? It's an apartment,M. And with whom do you live at that apartment? I have a roommate What's I think it's How long has your mommate? She's been my roommate for about four months The last name? Have you ever given a deposition before? No, l have not. (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 2 (Pages 2 to 5) (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107800 Page 6 1 Q. I'm confident that Mr. Horowitz, your 2 attorney, has told you about the procedure. I get to 3 ask you a lot of questions and he may have some 4 questions at the end. You understand that? 5 A. Uh huh. 6 Q. Yes? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You need to answer out loud, yes, nos, l don't 9 know, I don't recall, whatever your answer is. Do you 10 understand that as well? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. If I ask you a question that you don't 13 understand, ask me to either to rephrase it or to repeat 14 it rll be happy to do that, all right? 15 A. Uh huh yes. 16 Q. All right. If you answer a question, I'm 17 going to assume that you've understood it and answered 18 it truthfully. Fair? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. Any time you want to take a break, 21 let us know. Pm okay with that unless you're in the 22 middle of a question or I'm in a series of questions 23 then I'll probably balk at it, but other than that, just 24 let us know. 25 You understand you are under oath today? Page 1 A. I guess I wasn't under oath for that. 2 Q. Do you understand the distinction between 3 being under oath and not under oath? Is that a yes? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. What's the distinction to you? 6 A. That you have to tell the full truth. 7 Q. Okay, all right. 8 A. Actually I don't know, because I, I don't 9 remember being under oath for the medical examiner, so 13 maybe - 11 Q. So you had a medical exam by whom? 12 A. By Dr. Kilman and your medical examiner. I 13 forget his name. 14 Q. Okay. When did you see my medical examiner? 15 How long ago? 16 A. About two weeks ago. 17 Q. And you spent how long with him? 18 A. About five hours. 19 Q. And he took the history, background 20 information from you as well as you did testing, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And that was two weeks ago, but you don't 24 remember his name? 25 A. No. Page 7 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you understood when you are put under 3 oath, whether by a court reporter at a deposition or if I at a trial if this case goes to trial or by a police officer, you are required to tell the truth? A. Yes. Q. If you don't tell the truth, you may be 6 committing a crime, committing the crime of perjury. 9 Do you understand that? 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You've been put under oath before, true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And you understand that you were sworn 18 to tell the truth? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. On how many occasions have you been put 21 under oath where you have given testimony about 22 anything? 23 A. I believe I was under oath at — was that when 24 the medical examiner's, I guess it was — 25 Q. Medical examiner, who was that? Page 9 1 Q. And you called — the evaluator or the person 2 who did the examination at your attomey's request for 3 you in this case is Dr. who? 4 A. Kilman. 5 Q. Kilman, all right. How do you think you spell 6 that? 7 A. I'm guessing. 8 Q. All right. Since the time you had — and I'll 9 represent to you his real name is Kliman. 10 A. Kliman, 11 Q. That's all right. Since you did your 12 examination with him in December of '08, it wa. 13 December 5th of '08, have you had any contact with him 14 whatsoever, him being Dr. Kliman? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 Q. So with both Dr. Kliman and Dr. Hall, you 17 weren't under oath, correct, as you understand it? 18 A. No, I guess not. 19 Q. I'm sorry? 20 A. No, I guess no. 21 Q. Well, did you tell him the truth? Did you 22 tell both of than the truth? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. So even though you weren't under 25 oath, so there may not be a penalty of perjury (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 3 (Pages 6 to 9) (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107801 Page 10 1 associated with it if you lied, it's Your testimony that 2 you told both Dr. ICIhnan and Dr. Hall the truth? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And during the examination that was 5 done by Dr. Hall, did you feel that you had enough time 6 to take breaks, that you had an opportunity to fully 7 explore all of the issues that you wanted to discuss 8 with him? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q All right. Did you think he was fair with you 11 and treated you with respect during the course of the 12 interview? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Now I think you told me you've never given a 15 deposition before like we're doing here today? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That's correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you've never testified in cowl, true? 20 A. Yes. 21. Q Do you understand that if in fact this case is 22 not resolved at some point, that you will be testifying 23 in court and people will know that you are lane Doe 7 in 24 court? 25 A. Yes. Page 12 1 of scared, because Mcalled me and left a voicemail 2 on my phone asking about the cops. And I just like 3 didn't know what was going on. So no, I didn't tell 4 them everything that happened. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And my parents were there. 7 Q. Let me move to strike as nonresponsive. 8 But let me get back to you lied to the police 9 officers when they took a, from the Town of Palm 10 Beach — strike that 11 It's your testimony now even though you know 12 that you could be penalized or that you could be found 13 guilty of perjury, it didn't bother you at all to lie to 14 police officers when they put you tinder oath back in 15 October of 2005; is that correct? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to form and asked and 17 answered. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. CRITION: 20 Q. Okay. I71 ask you to assume that the police 21 officers interviewed you from the Town of Palm Beach on 22 October 4th of 2005, all right? 23 A. 1.1h huh. 24 Q. Yes? 25 A. Yes. Page 11 1 Q. Okay. And you may no longer be Jane Doe, and 2 whether it's a newspaper or anyone who wants to do a 3 story about this case, your name may well become public; 4 do you understand that? 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Foam 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 BY MR. CRITTON: 8 Q. Affright. Now at some point did you give 9 a — you met with police officers; is that correct, 10 associated with the Town of Palm Beach? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did they take a statement from you? 13 A. Yes, they did. 14 Q. And I asswne you told — the police officers 15 put you under oath as well, you swore to tell the whole 16 truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? They put 17 you under oath? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you told than the truth as well, correct? 20 A. I didn't tell them the complete truth. 21 Q. You lied to the police officers; is that what 22 you're saying? 23 A. Yes. I was scared and I was about 18, and I 24 was confused. They just showed up at my house with no 25 warning, and I was just kind of in shock and I was kind 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 13 Q. Okay. Have you read anything through today's date that suggests to you that you lied to the police officers? That is, what have you seen that makes you remember that you lied to the police officers? A. I just remember from my own memory what I told than, that I didn't tell them everything that went on. Q. Well, you keep saying I didn't tell them everything. In essence, you lied to the police officers, correct? MR. HOROWITZ: Firm. That's the third time you asked the question. MR. CRITTON: Well, but she keeps changing the answer, so — MR. HOROWITZ: No, no, no. MR. CR1TTON: You can object to the form. MR. HOROWITZ: Bob, you are harassing her. MR. CRITTON: Fm not harassing her. She keeps saying I didn't tell them the whole thing. There is a distinction between a lie and not telling the truth. MR. HOROWITZ: She said — MR. CRITTON: I understand what she's trying to say. MR. HOROWITZ: She answered your question. (561) 832-7500 4 (Pages 10 to 13) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107802 Page 14 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. Back to my question, ma'am. On October 4 of 3 2005 when the police officers came to interview you and 4 you did not tell them the truth, or from your S perspective the complete truth, you say you were only 18 6 at the time. 7 A. I was younger and I was confused. And my 3 parents were there and they showed up without me having 9 any knowledge that they were going to be there besides a 10 telephone call I got from my parents. 11 And I showed up and I was scared. I was 12 scared I was going to get in trouble. I was scared what 13 my parents would think. I was upset. I mean a lot of 14 things were going on then. 15 Q. Okay. You were scared what your — and 16 confused as to what your parents would think, but, but 17 you weren't too scared to not tell the police officers 18 the truth, correct? 19 A. I guess you could say that, yes. 20 Q. How else would you describe it? 21 A. Just how I did. 22 Q. All right. Okay. You were 18 at the time. 23 YOU were an adult, right? 24 A. Uh huh. 25 Q. Yes? 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 16 A. Uhhttb. Q. Yes? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. And you said — so how long did it take you to get home? A. I was about five minutes away from my house. Q. All tight. Did you tell your parents don't want to talk to them, I'm scared and confined, maybe even in shock and I'm only 18, so tell them not to come? MR. HOROWITZ: Fain. THE WITNESS: I didn't say that at all. I was, I had no idea what it was about, so I had no idea it was about the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Well, had anybody called you and told you anything about Jeffrey Epstein or that the police were interviewing individuals related to Jeffrey Epstein? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: No, besides left a voicemail, but it was I think when I already got there, she left a voicemail saying about, asking if I had, if the cops were at my place and I was talking to them and if I was going to ask them any questions. She just left me a voicemail, so — Page 15 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you were 18? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. In 2005. Were you in at the time? 7 A. I believe went to 8 is where? 9 A. It's in Orlando. 10 Q. So you were in college at the time, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The police officers called your home? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And — 15 A. Well, they didn't call my home. They just 16 showed up there and my parents called me saying that 17 there were two police officers there waiting for me. 18 Q. And so you must have been home from school at 19 that time? 20 A. Yes, I was. I was on break. 21 Q. You were on break. So you had, at least your 22 parents called you and said there's two police officers 23 here from the Town of Palm Beach? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And they want to talk to you? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 17 BY MR. CRITTON: Q. What about Jane Doe 4, hadn't you talked to Jane Doe 4, because she had been interviewed by the police officers, hadn't she? A. I don't think she was imerviewed before me. Q. You think your interview preceded or was before hoe Doe 4? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I can't remember exactly, but I think so, yes. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. So you show up, you are 18, you are an adult. You can choose to either talk to the police or not, correct? A. Uh huh. Q. Yes? A. Yes. MR. HOROWITZ: Form BY MR. CRITTON: Q. All right. The confusion from your perspective was you didn't know why the police were there? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Right? Otb:0•4•46AMMOaimatoemeaxtet....of (561) 832-7500 5 (Pages 14 to 17) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107803 Page 18 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. You may have been scared 3 originally, why are the police at my home? 4 A. (Witness nods head up and down.) 5 Q. All right, I understand that. So you come 6 in. There are two police officers. Males, or one male, 7 one female? 8 A. There are two males. 9 Q. They introduce themselves? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what did they say they wanted to talk — 12 let me strike that. 13 Did you speak to the two officers together or 14 were your parents right there with you? 15 A. My parents were there when they were there and 16 I was there. 17 Q. So did you all sit down in the living room? 18 A. We sat down outside and they said they wanted 19 to talk to me. I don't exactly remember what they said, 20 but they said something about Jeffrey. And that's when 21 I asked my mom if she could go inside the house. And 22 that's when I talked to them. 23 Q. How about your dad, was he there too? 24 A. He wasn't there at the house. He was at work. 25 Q. I thought you said both your parents was Page 20 1 police officers? 2 Why did that not make sense to you, ma'am? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Penn. 4 THE WITNESS: Because I did not want to hurt 5 my mom and let her find out about everything that 6 happened with Jeffrey. I don't think that's fair 7 to her to hear that from a cop without me telling 8 her first. 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 Q. Okay. Well, but you were confused, scared - 11 and in shock. So don't most young adults who have good 12 relationships with their parents, isn't that one of the 13 first people you would want to talk to is either your 14 mother or father, have them both around? 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, that would be the last, I 17 wouldn't want her to find out anything until I had 18 time to sit down with her and tell her. I wouldn't 19 want to have her there while cops were 20 interrogating me. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. So you knew that the cops were going to 23 interrogate you — I'm using your word — right? 24 A. Yes. I'm sure they were going to ask me 25 questions about Jeffrey and what happened. Page 19 1 there. So it was only your mom that was there? 2 A. Well, he came home later. 3 Q. I understand that, but you left the impression 4 with me earlier that your dad was there and your mom 5 were diem, they were waiting there with the police 6 officers. That's not correct? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Faint. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, my mom was there and then 9 my dad carne home later, so I guess -- 10 BY MR. CRTITON: 11 Q. When the police officers were still there? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So mom, the four of you sit down outside, the 14 police officers say rd like to talk to you about 15 Jeffrey Epstein, you asked your mom to go inside? 16 A. Uh huh. 17 Q. Yes? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You certainly have the presence of mind to say 20 'Mom, go inside"? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Why, if you are 18, only 38, as you describe 23 it, you are confused, you are scared and you are in 24 shock, why wouldn't you keep someone who is very close 25 to you, your mother, there before you talked to the Page 21 1 Q. So therefore, you certainly had the presence 2 of mind to say, after you knew why the police were 3 there, the four of you were standing or sitting outside 4 and you said, "Mom, go inside," because you wanted to be 5 able to talk -- 6 A. Well, actually — 7 Q. Can I finish my question, please? 8 You wanted to be able to move Mom to a 9 different section of the house so you could talk to the 10 police officers, find out what they wanted, and then 11 think about what ultimately you would tell your mom; 12 fair statement? 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form, compound. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, and also the cops asked her 15 to go inside too. They, they were actually the 16 ones that recommended it. And then I asked her, I 17 said, "Yes, Mom, could you go inside?" 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. But you could have said "No, l wain my mom 20 here"? 21 A. I didn't want her there. 22 Q. I understand you didn't, but you could have 23 said 'I want my mother here"? 24 A. Of course I could have. 25 Q. All right. But again, you had the presence of (561) 832-7500 6 (Pages 18 to 21) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107804 Page 22 1 mind to determine whether or not you wanted your mother 2 to stay or not stay, correct? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Let me tell you one other thing. From time to 7 time 111 ask questions and I may not be done. If I'm 8 not done with the question, I'm going to tell you, 9 because not to be rude to you, but to be certain you 10 understand my full question, right? So that you can 11 hear the full thing. 12 If I chop you off in an answer, just let me 13 know. Say, "Critton, I'm not done with my answer," and 14 then Ill let you finish your answer, okay? So that way 15 I make certain that I hear your response as well. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Okay. So did you tell the police officers 18 after you had presence of mind to send your mom into the 19 house, say took, l don't really vault to talk to you 20 about this, I'd like to be able to talk to my parents 21 first and then HI talk to you later"? 22 A. I kind of wanted to know what was going on, 23 and they made it sound like I needed to talk to them or 24 I would get in trouble if I didn't talk to them. 25 Q. Why would you get in trouble? Page 24 1 not? 2 A. Yes, 3 Q. Where police officers want to cone and talk to 4 a particular witness, maybe a suspect in the crime, 5 sometimes they talk, sometimes they don't? 6 You know that, we've all seen "Law and Order" 7 and those series. You have seen them too, haven't you? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 Q. Anyhow, you make a conscious decision to say 12 okay, I'm going to sit down and talk with the police 13 officers and find out what they want to ask me, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How long were they there? 16 A. They were there for about an hour and a half, 17 two hours. I really don't remember. 18 Q. Did they have a tape recorder with them? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. Did they talk to you — during the entire time 21 they talked to you, did they have the tape recorder on? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. Did they have it on fora portion of the Page 23 A. Because - 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 THE WITNESS: -- they are the cops, and I was 4 young, I didn't know. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. You were 18. You were an adult 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 Q. MIS? 10 A. Yeah, if you can — yes. 11 Q. All right. And other times that you were 12 either confined or scared, you had called your parents 13 and said "Hey, look, I have this particular problem or I 14 don't have this — or I have this particular problem, 15 what should I do?" 16 You have done that with your parents before? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. Anyhow, so you decide to sit down 19 and talk with police officers. You made that decision? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. Correct? 23 A. Well, it was kind of like I felt like I had 24 to. They were at my house. I didn't know any better. 25 Q. Sure. You have seen TV shows before, had you Page 25 1 interview? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And where you raised your right hand and you 4 were sworn to tell the truth? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And they asked you a bunch of questions? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And if I understand your testimony, it's -- 9 your position is you didn't lie to them, you just didn't 10 tell them everything: is that correct? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: FWD. 12 THE WITNESS: I admitted that I lied and I 13 didn't tell the whole truth, but I did not tell 14 them everything that happened. I just told them 15 some of what happened. 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 Q. Have you ever looked at the police report or 18 any probable cause affidavit or police report in 19 preparation for your deposition today? 20 A. Their police report? 21 Q. Have you seen any portions of the police 22 report that related to the interview relating to you? 23 A. No, I don't think so. 24 Q. Have you looked at anything in preparation for 25 your deposition today? (561) 832-7500 7 (Pages 22 to 25) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107805 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 26 A. I just read over the Kilman Kliman, sony — Q. Kliman what? A. When I had an interview with him. Q. You mean his questions, your answers, or his summary of what you said? MR HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Just his questions and my answers. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Did you read over your interrogatories, your answers to the interrogatories? A. Yes. Q. Okay. When did you do that? A. Actually, l did it right before I came in here just to kind of rejog my memory. Q. That's fine. Did you look at anything else? A. No. Q. Have you read anybody else's deposition who gave a deposition in this case? A. I haven't read anybody else's deposition. Q. Have you talked to anyone? You have certainly talked to Jane Doe 4. She is one of your best friends, right? A. Yes, I talked to her. Page 28 1 Q. Let me get back to the police here. 2 So the police sit and they interview you for 3 an hour and a half to two hours, and during that, not 4 only the sworn part of the testimony out of your S statement, but as well you're saying that you lied to 6 them during part of, part of what you've said, both 7 sworn and unsworn, and as well you didn't provide them 8 all the information, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, you filed your lawsuit in this case 11 against Mr. Epstein and you are seeking, at least your 12 lawyers are asking in part of the complaint for 13 $50 million. Are you aware of that? 14 A. No, my lawyers take care of all that. 15 Q. All right. Let me show you I'll mark as 16 Exhibit 1. 17 (The document was marked Defendant's 18 Exhibit I for identification.) 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 Q. Exhibit 1 is the amended complaint that you 21 filed, that your lawyers — it's the second complaint 22 that actually was filed in this action. The original 23 complaint was filed on September 10th of '08, all right? 24 A. I.Jh huh. 25 Q. Yes? Page 27 1 Q. And from my recollection of Jane Doe 4's 2 deposition is you guys talk almost every day? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: I'm sorry, are we talking about 4 in preparation for her depo? 5 MR. CRITTON: Just asking a question. 6 MR. HOROWITZ: You are moving off topic. 7 THE WITNESS: We don't talk every day, no, but 8 we do talk a lot. 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 Q. Four, five, six times a week? 11 A. I wouldn't say that much. 12 Q. How often do you still talk? 13 A. I talked to her recently when I was in town, 14 but when I'm in Orlando I don't talk to her every week. 15 Q. So if I got your phone records, I might find 16 that there are weeks or two weeks at a time that neither 17 one of you are speaking with anyone — with each other, 18 I'm sorry. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. Are you aware that Jane Doe 4 gave 21 a deposition in this case? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you have talked to her about her 24 deposition, haven't you? 25 A. Yes. Page 29 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. So between the time that the 3 lawsuit was filed on September -- let me strike that — 4 that you gave a statement to the police officers under 5 which you, about which you've admitted you did not tell 6 the truth on October 4,2005, up until three years 7 later — almost three years later, September 10th of 8 '08, did you recontact the police and tell the police 9 that you had not told them the truth? In fact, you had 10 lied to them and withheld information? 11 A. 1 told the FBI that when they came up to visit 12 me in Orlando. 13 Q. That wasn't my question. 14 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 Q. My question was did you talk to the Palm Beach 17 police department — 18 A. 'never talked to them after that. 19 Q. I need to finish the question. 20 A. I'm sorry. 21 Q. -- from the time that you first spoke with 22 them on October 4th of 2005 up until the time that the 23 complaint was filed, that is, to bring this lawsuit 24 seeking damages in excess of $50 million against 25 Mr. Epstein, did you ever call or recontact the Palm (561) 832-7500 8 (Pages 26 to 29) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107806 Page 30 1 Beach Police Department and tell them what happened in 2 tams of your interview; that is, that you didn't tell 3 them the truth, you lied to than? 4 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Why not? 3 A. Well, because they never called me back to ask 9 me any more questions and I tried to move on fran 10 everything. I was in school. I was trying to, I was 11 scared about everything that was going on with the media 12 and all my friends, and I didn't want to say anything 13 until I knew exactly what was going on and it was safe 14 for me to say everything and I wasn't going to get in 15 trouble. 16 Q. Well, why would you think you would get in 17 trouble? I mean if you didn't hesitate to lie to the 18 Palm Beach Police Department, what trouble did you think 19 you were going to get in? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: I had no idea. I just, I didn't 22 really know at the time. I was just scared. 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. Well, you knew that perjury was a crime back 25 then, didn't you? Page 32 1 to lie to the police officers, were you? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 3 THE WITNESS; Actually, I was scared and 4 confused. That is why I lied to them. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. All right. So what were you scared and 7 confused about? 8 A. I was scared because I knew what happened with 9 Jeffrey and I knew that was wrong and I, I knew that he 10 was possibly going to get in trouble, and I didn't know 11 if I was going to get in trouble for going there for 12 what happened. 13 So I mean I was mainly scared about that. I 14 was scared about my parents finding out. Just 15 everything going on with what happened, I was scared 16 about and confused about. 17 Q. Okay. When was the last time you were at 18 Mr. Epstein's home, that you claim you were at 19 Mr. Epstein's home? 20 A. I'm pretty sure it was the end of my junior 21 year of high school. 22 Q. Which would have been what? 23 A. It would have been 2004, I believe. 24 Q. Okay. And that was the last time you were 25 there, so it would have been what, approximately May of Page 31 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 BY MR. CRITTON: Q. To lie to a police officer under oath? A Yes. I also knew what Jeffrey did was a crime, but I mean — 6 Q. I'm not talking about Jeffrey. Go ahead, 7 finish your answer. 8 Again, I'm interested in specific answers to 9 questions, and I'm going to have to move to strike and 10 re-ask you the question. So I know that you may have 11 some things that you want to add on. Your lawyer can 12 certainly come back and cover that, but if you can focus 13 on my question, this goes a lot faster, but you can 14 answer anything the way you want. 15 My question is with regard to the police 16 officers, you knew, you knew that telling them a lie was 17 a crime, correct? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form Object to the form. 19 This is the third time you've asked the question, 20 at least. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I already told you. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 Q. Yes? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. So you weren't too scared or confused (561) 832-7500 Page 1 2004? 2 A. T don't remember exact dates, but I just 3 believe it was the end of my junior year, so probably 4 around May or June. 5 Q. 2004? 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Not 2005? 8 A. I don't believe I went in 2005 9 Q. When did you graduate from la 10 A. 2005. 11 Q. All right So the end of your —so your 12 senior year would have been approximately August of '04 13 through May of '05? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So where your Exhibit I, the complaint alleges 16 that you first went to Mr. Epstein's home when you were 17 16 years old and you continued to go over a period of 18 one and a half to two years, that's false; is that 19 correct? 20 MB. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 Q. I'm sorry? 24 A. I believe so. 25 Q. So over what period of time, when do you think 9 (Pages 30 to 33) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107807 Page 34 1 you first went to Mr. Epstein's home? 2 A. I believe I went the end of my sophomore year 3 611 about the end of my junior year. Fm not sure if 4 it was the beginning or the end of my sophomore year. 5 Somewhere around there. 6 Q. Well, you told the police that you were 7 approximately 17 when you first went to Mr. Epstein's 8 home, didn't you? 9 A. I don't exactly remember what, when I said 10 that, I first told them I went. 11 Q. If I asked you to assume that the police 12 report reflects that the statement that you gave to 13 them, that you were there when you wore 17 years old, 14 all right? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. I old and you were born in, 17 let's see,Milir so it would have been 18 approximately June, the end of June of 2004, correct, 19 that you first went there? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: I, I don't exactly know, to be 22 honest with you. 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. You mean when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? 25 A. I can't put a date on it. I just remember it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 36 BY MR. CRITION: Q. -- to the police officers? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Whether you were scared or confused at that time, you probably would have given them at least your accurate age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I may have said it because I was scared and I didn't want to them to think I actually went that long, or I don't know why I said it. I honestly don't know. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. And maybe it was the truth at the time? MR HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I mean I really don't know. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. So it may have been the truth, it may not have been the truth; even today you don't know, correct, whether you were 17 when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? A. I believe I was 16, because I believe it was the end of my sophomore year. So I at least think I was 16. Q. So you are meeting with two police officers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 35 was my sophomore year to my junior year. Q. When you gave a statement to the police on October 4,2005, whether you were 16 or 17, what difference would it have made to the police officers? Why would being scared or confused, why would you Ile about your age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Maybe in fact — A. I mean I did go when l was 17 too, so I may have just said 17,1 don't really know. Q. Well, you were 18 — again, would you agree with me that your recollection of the events involving Mr. Epstein would have been better in October of '05 than it is at the current time? MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. And if you told the police officers you were 17 when you first went to Mr. Epstein's home, would you agree with me that that, there would have been no reason for you to lie about your age at that time — MR HOROWITZ: Form. Page 37 1 from the Town of Palm Beach in basically a secure 2 environment, nothing can happen to you there. You told 3 them that you were 17 years old when you first went to 4 Mr. Epstein's. 5 Now that you arc seeking $50 million in a 6 lawsuit that was filed on September 10 of '08, now all 7 of a sudden maybe you were 16? Is that your testimony? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Let me object to form. You are 9 mischaracterizing the testimony. 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 Q. You can go ahead and answer, ma'am. 12 A. Well, I told you that I didn't tell them the 13 complete truth. So what would it matter if I told them 14 I was 17 or 16, when I already told you I didn't tell 15 them the complete truth and I didn't tell them 16 everything that happened? 17 Q. Well, again, my point is merely is — 18 A. I understand. 19 Q. I want you to confirm that you didn't even 20 tell them the correct age, or at least your position is 21 you may have lied to the police officers even about the 22 age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's house? 23 A. I believe the only reason 1 would have lied 24 about my age, because I was scared and I didn't want 25 them obviously when I was 16 to think that I went there (561) 832-7500 10 (Pages 34 to 37) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107808 Page 38 1 as well as 17 and if I didn't really want to be involved 2 in it, so maybe that's why I said I was 17. I don't 3 remember that far back what I was thinking. 4 Q. Okay. I understand that. But in fact it 5 could have been true that the first time you went to 6 Mr. Epstein's house you were 17 years old, correct? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I remember going around the 9 end of my sophomore year. 10 BY MR. CR1TTON: 11 Q. Give me your best exact date when you first 12 went to Mr. Epstein's home. 13 A. I remembere. was in my gym class and she 14 asked me to go, and Fm almost positive that was my 15 towards the end of my sophomore year. She was in my gym 16 class. 17 Q. That takes you now to your sophomore year? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Yet 21 Q. Which would have been when? 22 A. When I was 16. 23 Q. You were a senior -- lees just get the dates 24 right You were senior as of August of 'OS — I'm 25 sorry, of '04, correct? Page 40 1 Q. So now your testimony is, also under oath, is 2 we started maybe it was in your junior year. You told 3 the police it was when you were 17, which would have put 4 k in your senior year or just before the start of your 5 senior year in 2005. 6 And now your testimony is it may have been in 7 your sophomore year, is that correct? 8 A. I'm not trying to lie or mislead you. 1 9 honestly can't remember if it was my sophomore or my 10 junior year 1 wasn't going by age or anything. I just 11 could not remember what year I started going. 12 Q. All right. At least for todays deposition 13 under oath, tell me what your position is as to when you 14 went to Mr. Epstein's home. Now I've got senior year, 15 junior or sophomore year, so my question -- 16 A. It wasn't my senior year. I don't believe I 17 remember going my senior year, so I'm pretty sure it was 18 my sophomore year and then into my junior year. 19 Q. All right. Give me an approximate time. If 20 you are now claiming it's in your sophomore year, give 21 me an approximate date when'. first approached you. 22 A. I believe It was towards the end of my 23 sophomore year. 24 Q. We're talking about April, May? 25 A. The end. I really don't -- I can't answer Page 33 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And as of August of '04, you would have been 3 17 years old as a senior; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So as a junior, you would have been 16 6 years old and you would have started in August of '03 to 7 '04, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. If '05, 04-05 is your senior year and you were 10 17 during your whole senior year, is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. So you would have been 16 during 13 your entire junior year? 14 A. Uh huh. 15 Q. Yes? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. But you just said. asked you to go 18 to Mr. Epstein's house now when you were in your 19 sophomore year. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. So you would have been 15 then? 22 A. I guess so. I wasn't really going by age. I 23 was just trying to remember when she was in my gym 24 class, and I can't remember if it was my sophomore or my 25 junior year. Page 41 1 you, because I don't want to tell you something that 2 I — !just believe it was towards the end of my 3 sophomore year. 4 Q. If you look at Exhibit 1, paragraph nine says, 5 the last sentence says, "In or about 2004 Jane Doe"- 6 which is you, Jane Doe 7 — am I saying that right, Jane 7 Doe 7? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "then approximately I6 years old, fell into 10 Epstein's trap." 11 Okay, you see that? 12 A. Uh huh. 13 Q. So at least the lawsuit that was filed 14 initially, your amended complaint that was filed on 15 September -- Fm sorry, February 27 of '09, it alleges 16 sometime in 2004, right? Which would have had to have 17 been after your sophomore year, but into your junior 18 year, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So you are saying now that that complaint is 21 wrong? At least based on what you're claiming to be the 22 truth today; is that right? 23 A. I told you 'couldn't remember correctly if it 24 was my sophomore or my junior year when she was in my 25 gym class, so — (561) 832-7500 11 (Pages 38 to 41) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107809 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 42 Q. So now you are saying it realty could be the junior year? A. I really, I really don't know. I can't remember. I just icutemlmr her being in my gym class asking me to go. Q. So maybe it's '03, maybe its '04, maybe it's '05, you are just not sure? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Ifs not '05. It was either 2003, I'm pretty sure it was 2003 — or 2002 or 2003 through 2004. it wasn't 2005 at all. BY MR. CRITTON: Q All right. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 2. (The doe-meta was marked Defendant's Exhibit 2 for identification.) MR. CRiTTON: Here's extra copy for you. MR. HOROWITZ: Okay. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. These are interrogatory answers that you signed on January 23, 2008. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Would you go to the second, go to the second-to-last page. MR. HOROWITZ: What, is there a question? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 44 these interrogatories and you understood that, true? A. Uh huh, yes. Q. All right. And it says, the question is "List all dates you allege you were at Mr. Epstein's home in Florida. Include the date, time arrived and left, the name of anyone else who went with you to the home, when you were there, the time spent with Mr. Epstein, and the names and addresses of individuals who were present in the house with Mr. Epstein and you." Okay. And why don't you read for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what your answer was, at least the first part of the answer. A. "Plaintiff went to the defendant's estate approximately eight to ten times during her junior and senior years of high school, from 2004 to 2005." Q. All right. So you already told us that you lied to the police about certain aspects of your statement. Are you now telling us that on January 23rd of 2009 when you answered these interrogatories you were again lying about the dates you were at Mr. Epstein's home? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I wasn't lying at all. I, I told you before i don't exactly remember the exact dates. 2 Page 43 1 MR. CRITTON: Yes, go to the last page, 2 second to last page. 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 Q. The is a signature there that says go to 5 the second-to-last page, please, ma'am. These are 6 plaintiff Jane Doe 7's, Ms. Jane Doc 7's answers to 7 first set or first interrogatories, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. And you see there is a 10 verification that says Jane Doe 7, "being duly sworn, 11 deposes and says that the foregoing answers to 12 interrogatories are true and correct to the best of her 13 knowledge, information and belief." 14 That's your signature, is it not? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It reflects "Sworn and subscribed to the 23rd 17 day of January 20(18." in fact, I think it's 2009, based 18 upon the certificate page, because you didn't have a 19 lawsuit as of January of 2008. So I'm sure it was that 20 same January issue that a lot of people have, so let's 21 assume, we'll agree that it was January 23, 2009, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All tight. So then if you go to Question 25 No. 15, again you're under oath again and swearing to (561) 832-7500 Page 45 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q Well, you're giving this information -- 3 A. I know I went my junior year. I don't 4 remember if it started my sophomore — i think it ended 5 my senior. I just, Pm telling the truth. I don't know 6 exact dates. It's hard for me to remember. 7 Q. Do you even know what my question was? 8 A. Yes, 1 did. 9 Q. You IM me ask one word and then you just 10 started talking. 11 A. I'm sorry, you are just trying to make me out 12 to look like a liar when I told you I don't remember 13 exact dates. 14 Q. I'll make it very clear. I'm not trying to 15 make you out as anything, all right? The record is 16 going to speak for itself whether you are telling the 17 bulb or not. Somebody else can judge that. That's not 18 my job. 19 All I'm saying is at least in your answers to 20 interrogatories, and I assume you completed these in 21 conjunction with your attorneys, right? You had t:..: 22 opportunity to sit with your attorneys? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. lo fact, you sat with Jessica Arbour at the 25 time, who is now an attorney with Mermelstein & 12 (Pages 42 to 45) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107810 Page 46 Horowitz, correct? 2 A. Uh huh. 3 Q. Yes? 4 A. Yes. Q. And you understood in answering these 6 questions that you were to answer them to the best of 7 your ability. because you would be sworn that they were 8 truthful, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right So now we've got see if we can 11 sort through this. 12 Under oath, you told the police officers you 13 were 17 when you came to Mr. Epstein's, which would have 14 had to have been in .04, that is after lune 30th of 15 2004, which would have put you after completion of your 16 junior year and into your senior year, right? That's at 17 least what you told the police? 18 A. Yes, 19 Q. In your answers to interrogatories you say you 20 went to Mr. Epstein's home 2004 and 2005, during both 21 your junior and senior years, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you've told us under oath here today that 24 you may have gone to Mr. Epstein's when you were 15 as a 25 sophomore, you may have gone when you were 16 as a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 48 THE WITNESS: Can you read that one more time, please? Sorry. (A portion of the record was read by the Mom•) THE WITNESS: I definitely went when I was a junior. I wasn't sure if I went when I was a sophomore, so yes. BY PAR. CRITTON: Q. So now you were a junior. At least what you're saying today, separate and apart from what you told the police officer, separate and apart flan what you put in your answers to interrogatories, separate and apart from what you have previously testified today, it's now your testimony under oath again that you went sometime in your junior year, which would have been what, in '04? A. Yes. Q. And your best recollection as to when you went would have been when? MR. HOROWITZ: Which visit are you talking about? MR. CANTON: First went to Mr. Epstein. MR. HOROWITZ: First went. THE WITNESS: First was with Page 47 1 junior, but you don't know? 2 A I think I put this because — 3 Q. No, I'm not asking why you put that. 4 My question to you is that's what you've told 5 us at least today? 6 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 THE WITNESS: I put this because I was sure 8 that I went my junior year. 1 didn't remember if I 9 went my senior year and I didn't remember if I went 10 my sophomore year at all. Maybe towards the end, 11 lice I told you earlier. 12 But I definitely remember going my Junior 13 year. So that's maybe why 1 left out the sophomore 14 year. I don't remember if I went my sophomore 15 year. I'm not saying that 1 did. 1 don't 16 remember. 17 MR. CRITTON: Let me move to strike as 18 nonresponsive. 19 Would you read the question back to her, 20 please. 21 (A portion of the record was read by the 22 reporter.) 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. Is that correct? 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Fonn. Page 49 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. I understand that's your testimony. Datewise, 3 sometime in April or May of 2004? 4 MR. HOROWITZ: No, she said end of her 5 sophomore is her best- 6 MR. CRMON: No, she just said junior. Well, 7 wait a minute, let's clear it up, Mr. Horowitz. 8 Lets go back and read it. 9 (A portion of the record was read by the 10 reporter.) 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Right You are talking about 12 the first visit there. You we talking about — 13 MR. CRITTON: No, I'm talking about the first 14 visit 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Okay. 16 MR. CRITTON: She said junior year and then 17 you said no, sophomore. 18 MR. HOROWITZ: No, but the question wasn't 19 about — I'm not testifying. 20 MR. CRITTON: I'll clear it up again. 21 MR. HOROWITZ; Please clear it up. 22 MR. CRITTON: Because she's all over the 23 world. She can give us Ifice 40 years here. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. My question to you is is it your position that (561) 832-7500 ••••erovinanWENSINIMilwas,••••........ 13 (Pages 46 to 49) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107811 Page 50 1. you first went to Mr. Epstein's home in the latter part 2 of your junior year, which would have been sometime 3 April, May of 2004? 4 A. When I first went there? 5 Q. Yes, ma'am. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay, what is it now? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 THE WITNESS: Wby did you try to trick me like 10 that when I told you — 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 Q. fin not trying to trick you. You have said 13 about 19 different things. I'm going to ask a clean 14 question so maybe we can get a clean answer from you 15 here. 16 My question to you is what is your position as 17 to when you first went to Mr. Epstein's home? 18 A. My position is I believe it was towards the 19 end of my sophomore year or the beginning of my junior 20 year. I don't really remember the exact dates. 21 Q. If it was the end of your sophomore year, that 22 would have put it sometime in 2003, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. If it was the beginning of your junior 25 year, it still would have been sometime in '03, but you 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 52 Q. Okay, I'm asking you. I'm don't want to trick you here. I just want to make certain that you understand — A. No, that's fine. I just wish we could move past this. Q. Then in paragraph 14 the allegation is that you and Pm paraphrasing -- is that you returned on many occasions to Mr. Epstein's home over a period of 18 to 24 months, right? A. Yes. Q. All right So 18 to 24 months would be another year and a half to two years, which would now be, based on what you are testifying today, would have been sometime in '03 through sometime in '05, right? A. I suppose, yes. Q. Well, two years on to '03 takes me to '05, right? I'm just doing the math, ma'am. A. I honestly don't remember the dates and I don't remember how many months exactly. I don't -- but if you go by this, then yes. Q. Okay. A. I don't remember, I don't recall dates, and I'm sari, like I don't remember the first time I went there, I don't remember the date when I first went there. I don't remember the month. 'just remember Page 51 1 would have now been 16 years old, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Whereas if it was the latter part of your 4 sophomore year, you would have been 15? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So the complaint, Exhibit I, where it says you 7 first went in 2004, that's not true, correct? MR. HOROWITZ: Object to form. 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 Q. Well, let me go back to it again. 11 Paragraph nine where it says "In or about 2004 12 Jane Doe, then approximately 16 years old, fell into 13 Mr. Epstein's -- fell into Epstein's trap and became one 14 of his victims." Okay? 15 The first time you were there now you are 16 saying would have been in '03? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 BY MR. CRTTTON: 19 Q. Right? 20 A. The end of nw sophomore year, that's 2003, 21 yes. 22 Q. You tell me, okay? Please. Don't let me lead 23 you in that. You tell me what the end of your sophomore 24 year would have been, what year. 25 A. Yes, if it was the end of 2003. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 • 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 53 being in gym class with -was the first time. Q. Then if I go to your answers to interrogatories, which are Exhibit 2, question 15, where it says 'Plaintiff' — this is your answer under oath, okay? There is no lawyer. In fact, the only lawyers that were there were Ms. Arbour, paralegal and now lawyer. So you are certainly not — well, let me strike that When you answered these interrogatories, you did them in conjunction as reflected in answer number one with Ms. Arbour, who was a paralegal for the Mermelstein & Horowitz firm, correct? A. Yes. Q. You weren't scared, were you? A. No. Q. You weren't dazed? A. No. Q. You weren't confused? A. No. Q. You had good presence of mind, you had the ability to think about the question as long as you wanted to, true? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Yes. Ilffittl,YmeelaiiNito.1 (561) 832-7500 14 (Pages 50 to 53) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107812 Page 54 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. All right. And at least in this answer under 3 oath you said, 'Plaintiff went to defendant's estate 4 approximately eight to ten times during her junior and 5 senior years of high school, from 2004 and 2005." 6 Right? 7 A. Uh huh. 8 Q. Yes? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Now you said you also gave — well, let 11 me strike that. Let me stay with the police statement 12 that you gave a minute. 13 Now the first time went to Mr. Epstein's 14 home, you went with is that true? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And did you — and I'm going to come 17 back and ask a lot more questions about this. I just 18 want to get what you told the Palm Beach Police 19 Department under oath. 20 You told them that you went with. Did you 21 go upstairs on the very first visit to Mr. Epstein's 22 home? 23 MR. HOROMTIZ: Tin sorry, are you asking 24 ha — 25 MR. CRITTON: What she told the police. Page 56 1 Q. And now you are saying that may not be right, 2 I may have lied to them, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. So you told them you went to 5 Mr. Epstein's home the first tint with 6 Was that true? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Why did you tell them that? 9 A. Because that was the first time I went_ 10 Q. But why did you, if you were confused and 11 scared, why didn't you just tell the police you never 12 went to Mr. Epstein's home if you didn't want to get in 13 trouble? 14 If you were one of the first people that they 15 were lancing to and no one had clued you in that they 16 were talking to anyone else, why didn't you just tell 17 the police officers if you were going to lie, 9 never 18 went to Epstein's house, I don't know what you are 19 talking about"? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: Because they pretty much sounded 22 like they knew that I already went, from what they 23 told me. And they said they have records of my car 24 being there, and they pretty much said they already 25 knew I went. So that is why I told them, you know, 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 it 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 let's put it back in the scenario that you told me. You get a call from your mom, the Palm Beach police are there to interview you. You drive home for five minutes. The four of you, including your mother, are outside talking. They want to ask questions about Mr. Epstein. You make the decision to send Morn inside, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. That's you sit down? A. Yes. Q. So you are sitting down with the other two police officers, and as they are taking your sworn statement and talking to you, you told them -- they asked you when is the first time you went to Mr. Epstein's house, correct? A. Yes. Q. They ask you how old you were, and at least they reflect that you told them 17, correct? A. Yes. Page 55 MR HOROWITZ: Do you understand he's asking 1 what you told the police? 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 Q. The Palm Beach Police Department. And again, 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 where we are. Do the three of 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 57 that the first time that I went with. And I just didn't tell them everything about when I went the other times. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. So you actually drove your car to Mr. Epstein's? A. I don't remember if I drove the first time, no. Q. I'm not saying the first time, but you actually drove to Mr. Epstein's on your own? A. Yes. Q. So you had to actually get in your car, make a decision to go to Mr. Epstein's, and you went by yourself on occasions? A. I don't remember if I ever went by myself, but yes. Usually. was with me. Q. Usually. Always? A. Not always. Q. Okay. By the way, did you really go eight to ten times to Mr. Epstein's house? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. That I remember. Q. At least in the interrogatory, Exhibit 2 that we talked about, question 15, you are saying its wrong (561) 832-7500 I 15 (Pages 54 to 57) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107813 Page 58 with regard to 20042005 time period, but you are saying 2 at least it's right with regard to the number of times 3 you went; is that correct? 1 A. I said I don't remember the exact dates and 5 years. Q. Well, if it's 2004 and 2005, it would be at 7 the end of your junior year, latter part of your junior 8 year into your senior year, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. So, and I thought you told me five 11 minutes ago that that time period was not correct, or 12 now you are not so sure again. 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 14 THE WITNESS: I told you that I didn't 15 remember the dates. And I do remember going there 16 from eight to ten times, but I don't remember the 17 exact dates of when I started going there. 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. Okay. That's my question to you is you don't 20 remember the exact dates, but at least that part of the 21 interrogatory where it says the number of times you 22 went, you think that's maybe accurate? 23 A. Yes, it is accurate. 24 Q. Eight to ten times, okay. Well, you told the 25 police, the Palm Beach Police Department when you were Page E , 1 Q. 71te rust time you went, you went with El 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Let me get back to my question. They seemed 5 to know that you were at Mr. Epstein's home, that is, 6 the police officers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Because they had seen your car there? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And so if your car was them, l 11 assume you don't let other people drive your car 12 generally? 13 Let me ask this question. Did you ever let 14 any other person drive your car to Mr. Epstein's home? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. So you in each of those instances would 17 have had to make the voluntary decision that you were 18 going to go to Mr. Epstein's home, right? 19 A- Yes. 20 Q. All right. So you told than on the first 21 occasion you went with- right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what did you tell them who. was? 24 A. She was a friend in high school. 25 Q. All right. So you went with. She was a Page 59 1 interviewed that you only went two times, didn't you? 2 A. Yes, I already admitted that I did not tell 3 them the whole truth. 4 Q. I know. Well, what I'm trying to do is figure 5 out how many things you told them that may have been 6 true, that is -- well, let me strike that. 7 Pm trying to find out now from looking at the 8 police report what you told them may have been true 9 versus what was not true or might be a half truth or 10 something that you omitted. That's what I'm trying to 11 do here, okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Do you understand that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. So we know it's your testimony now 16 that you lied to them about your age. Did you lie to 17 them about the number of times you went to Mr. Epstein's 18 home, they being the Palm Beach Police Department? 19 A. I told you I didn't tell them all the times I 20 went. I only told them two. 21 Q. Well, you told them you went only two times? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that a lie? 24 A. I told you yes. I told you at the very 25 beginning. Page 61 1 friend. She was a good friend at the time? 2 A I don't remember if she was a good friend. I 3 think we were fighting. Me and her like would fight a 4 lot and then make up. So I don't remember if we were 5 good friends at the time or just friends. 6 Q. Okay. Good friend is someone you trust, have 7 almost complete faith in? That's not a play on words 8 with your name, but would you consider a good friend 9 someone that you would feel very comfortable with and 10 you could trust? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And if it was just a friend, maybe you 13 would trust and maybe you wouldn't? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you go with who you have now 16 described as a friend, someone you might trust or not 17 trust, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. To Mr. Epstein's home. Again, I'm going to 20 get into details later. 21 So you go to Mr. Epstein's home the first 22 time, and what happens, or what did you tell the police, 23 your best recollection? 24 A. I just remember I told them that I went there 25 and I saw the cooks there, I sawn. (561) 832-7500 16 (Pages 58 to 61) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107814 Page 62 1 I just remember that I, like 1 told them how I 2 went upstairs and I did the massage. And I don't think 3 I went into detail with them about what happened. 4 Q. So -- I'm sorry. 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Go ahead 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember going into 7 detail with them about what happened. 8 And then I also remember going once with., 9 and I think I told there about that orM. 10 Honestly, I don't -- 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 Q. So I'm clear, at least you told the police 13 officers, your best recollection of what you told the 14 police officers, the first time you went to 15 Mr. Epstein's home, you went there wide you met 16 the cook, you met El? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know who is? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who ism 21 A. Jeffreys assistant. 22 Q. And how do you know that? 23 A. Because she is the one that would call me 24 every time she wanted me to come there, and she would 25 always be there doing, making calls. She would call Page 64 1 with Jeffrey Epstein by phone? 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. Can you cite any instances to me where you 4 think that maybe you spoke with him or you just have no 5 recollection of having spoken with him? 6 A. I don't remember if he ever called me or 7 didn't call me, honestly. I remember talking to Sarah. 8 Q. Have you ever totted Mr. Epstein or has he 9 ever totted you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Have you ever spoken or communicated through a 12 computer in any way with Mr. Epstein, either he to you 13 or you to him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Would it be a correct statement that the only 16 conversations that you have ever had with Mr. Epstein 17 would have been at Mr. Epstein's home? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, as to what I can remember, 20 yes. 21 BY MR. CRTITON: 22 Q. Well, again, you are here under oath. You 23 knew you were going to be deposed? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So at least as you sit here today thinking Page 63 1 other girls too. 2 Sol assume that she was his assistant. She 3 also told me about how to set up the massage table and 4 other things like that 5 Q. How do you know called other females? 6 A. 1 know because they told me. 7 Q. Who is the they? 8 A. Jane Doe 4. 9 Q. Jane Doe 4? 10 A 1.1h huh. 11 Q. Yes? 12 A And L.A., yes. 13 Q. LA. who? 14 A L.A. 15 Q. Okay. Jane Doe 4 and L.A., are they still 16 friends of yours? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Good friends of yours? 19 A Jane Doe 4 is, yes. 20 Q. How about L.A., what's her status these days? 21 A Just a friend. 22 Q. Would It be a correct statement that you have 23 never spoken with Mr. Epstein by phone? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. As you sit here today, have you ever spoken Page 65 1 back over the time that you knew Mr. Epstein, it's your 2 best recollection as you sit here today that you have 3 never spoken with him except at his home; is that true? 4 A My best recollection, yes. S Q. You have never, and would it also be true that 6 you never saw Mr. Epstein other than at his home? 7 A. I saw him on the beach before jogging with 8 where he came over and said hi to me. 9 Q. Were you on the beach at the time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who were you there with? 12 A I forget. Just one of my girlfriends. 13 Q. You used to go to Palm Beach beach, the beach 14 in Palm Beach from time to time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. From the time you were a young girl up 17 probably even through now? 18 A. Uh huh, yes. 19 Q. All rid& So one time you saw him on the 20 beach with NM, he said hello to you? 21 A Yeah, he came over and said hi and asked me 22 bow I was. And he just said he was jogging. He had his 23 jogging outfit on. 24 Q. Is that the extent of the conversation? 25 A. From what I can remember. I don't know, it (561) 832-7500 17 (Pages 62 to 65) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107815 Page 66 1 was like a long time ago. I don't — 2 Q. And you talked to him? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. He said "Hi, how are your 5 A. Uh huh. 6 Q. Yes? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And did you, was that after you stopped going 9 to Mr. Epstein's house or during the time that you were 10 going to Mr. Epstein's house that you saw him jogging on 11 the beach? 12 A. I don't exactly remember when it was. I think 13 It was when I was still going. 14 Q. Okay. So the only time that you've ever 15 spoken with Mr. Epstein outside of his home would have 16 been the one time you saw him out jogging on the beach 17 and you were at the beach over in Palm Beach, correct? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I thought I saw him in Key 20 West once, but T wasn't sure that was him. But 21 yeah, other than that, yes. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 Q. Okay. You have never traveled with 24 Mr. Epstein? 25 A. No. Page 68 1 touch your buttocks, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And that's all he touched was your 4 buttocks, correct? 5 MR.. HOROWITZ: Form. Again, you are talking • 6 about the conversation? 7 BY MR. CRITTON: 8 Q. Only what you told the Palm Beach police. 9 A. As to what I can remember, Pm not — if you 10 could show me, I don't exactly remember. 11 Q. I'm asking your best recollection. Pm 12 !with% at the police report. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Did you also tell the Palm Beach police that 15 at no time did he touch any of your private areas? 16 A. I don't remember telling them that he did. 17 Q. Okay. In fact, you told them he 18 specifically — they asked you, did he touch, did he 19 touch you in your private main your vaginal area, 20 and you said no, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And they asked you whether he had touched your 23 breast, and you said no, correct? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. Aloha whatever ultimately, whatever the Page 67 1 Q. And Mr. Epstein has never flown you or asked 2 you to travel anyplace, has he, where you traveled? 3 A. No. 4 Q. That's correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. First time, at least what you told 7 the police officers, your best recollection is that you 8 went over there with you went upstairs, and you 9 gave Mr. Epstein a massage, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q Okay. And during the cause of the massage, 12 you kept your clothes on, true? 13 A. I believe that's what I told them. 14 Q. All right. And you also told the police that 15 at no then did he try to touch you or did he touch you, 16 correct? 17 A. I told them that he did try to touch my butt. 18 Q. Okay. He did try? 19 A. Or he did, l think' said. 20 Q. What's the difference between trying and 21 touching? 22 A. I don't exactly remember the words I said. I 23 think I did tell them that he did. 24 Q. So its now your testimony that you recall 25 telling the Palm Beach Police Department that he did (561) 832-7500 Page 69 1 statement says, that's what you would have told them. 2 If I ask you to assume that that's at least 3 the information that they have is that he did not touch 4 you in any, quote, unquote, private area, that would be 5 accurate? 6 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 Q. That's what you had told them? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you didn't touch him in any of his private 12 areas, did you? 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 Q. In fact, in any of the visits you ever went to 17 Mr. Epstein's home, you never touched him in his genital 18 area, did you? 19 A. No. 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. Pm sorry, Pm doing 21 this to have a clear record, because you stern to be 22 drifting between — 23 MR. CRITTON: Pm not drifting. Pm asking 24 specific questions. 25 MR HOROWITZ: I understand, but you arc I a 7210 Ow • • • 18 (Pages 66 to 69) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561} 832-7506 EFTA01107816 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 70 alternating between the conversation versus events. 2 MR. CRITTON: Is that a form? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Yes. 4 MR CRTITON: Ern not trying to trick her. 5 BY MR CRITTON: 6 Q. You understand when I said on all of the 7 visits you went to Mr. Epstein's home, you never touched 8 his private areas, his genital area, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now I'm asking away from the Palm Beach police 11 statement. You understood that, didn't you? 12 A. Yes. I did not. 13 Q. Same questions now. 14 Now I'm away from the statements you gave 15 under oath to the Palm Beach Police Department 16 At no time did you touch any of his genital 17 area, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. At no time did you have sexual 20 intercourse with Mr. Epstein, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 23 BY MR. CR1TTON: 24 Q. At no time did you have any oral or anal sex 25 with Mr. Epstein, correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 72 that you received any money for having given Mr. Epstein a massage? A. I believe I told them I did. Q. Okay. So you got money for doing a massage, although there was nothing of a sexual nature that was involved at all, at least what you told the Palm Beach police, correct? A. Yes. Q. Had you ever given a massage for money before? A. Q. A. A. Q. No. Had you given massages before? Just to friends. To boys and girls, males and females? Yes. Did you ever receive money for giving a massage before? A. No. Q. And how much money did you get from Mr. Epstein? A. $200. Q. Did he hand it to you? A. Yes. Q. After the first occasion — and again, back to what you told the Palm Beach police. On the second occasion what did you tell the, ?age 71 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. At no time did Mr. Epstein in any way 3 penetrate any portion of your vaginal area, did he? 4 A. I mean he did touch it and I wouldn't — 5 penetrate with what? 6 Q. With either an object or his fingers. At no 7 time did Mr. Epstein ever penetrate your vagina with 8 either his or an object, did he? A. MR. HOROWITZ: Let her fmish. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. But you didn't let him, did you? Q. He never penetrated, did he? A. No. Q. Now back to the police statement or the statement that you gave to the Palm Beach police. You told them that you only went to Mr. Epstein's borne — well, let me strike that. Let me stay with the first occasion. On the first occasion did you tell the police 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 73 that is, the second time you went to Mr. Epstein's, I think you said you tolighe P&each Police Department you we •Cher with MI or A. Q. A. Well, yes. Q. You either went with Illor •right? A. Yes. Q. How did you get to Mr. Epstein's? What did you tell the police? Getting back to what you told the police. A. I don't exactly remember. I think I said I drove there. Q. Okay. ir go the second time? A. I think went, yes. I don't retnem Q. So it would have been the three of you, you — well a sure, but you would have gone and either or MI right? A. Yes. Q. And maybe A. Yes. Q. And you think you drove? MR. HOROWITZ: Fame. THE WITNESS: I don't remember. (561) 832-7500 19 (Pages 70 to 73) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107817 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 74 BY MR. CRITTON: Q. And when you went the second time, what was, at least what did you tell the police you were there for the second time? A. I believe they asked me if I brought anybody there. And I believe I said I brought one of the. Q. 'Mere is two? A. Yes. Q. A. Q. Were they both friends of yours? A. Yes. Q. Good friends or just friends? A. Friends. Q. Okay. And how about watt she a friend or a good friend? A. A Blend. Q. The police asked you if you brow t somebod , and you said yes, I brought either correct? A. Yes. Q. And did the police ask you why you brought somebody? A. Yes. They asked me if I had brought somebody Page 76 1 A. Somebody that gets paid for sex, I guess. I 2 don't know. 3 Q. What's the difference between a pimp and a 4 prostitute, in your mind? 5 A A pimp brings somebody to have sex with 6 somebody else. 7 Q. And get paid, and gets paid for it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you ever consider yourself to be a 10 pimp? 11 A. No, not at all. 12 Q. Did you ever bring - 13 A. No, absolutely not. 14 Q. Did you ever bring someone to Mr. Epstein's 15 house so that they — 16 A. If I ever would have thought -- 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait for the question. 18 MR. CRI17ON: Go ahead. 19 MR. HOROWITZ: No,there is no question 20 pending. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. Tell me what you think. 23 MR. HOROWITZ: About what? 24 MR. CRITTON: What you were just going to 25 give. Don't interrupt her. Page 75 1 and got paid for bringing somebody. 2 Q. And did you, did you in fact get paid for 3 having brought someone? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And what were you getting paid for? o A. Bringing somebody there. 7 Q. Okay. Did the police ask you if you were procuring people for giving a massage? 9 A. Can you say that again? 10 Q. Soliciting. Were you procuring someone? Were 11 you trying to get, hire someone or obtain someone -- 12 A. I wasn't Dying to hire them. I just told 13 them about it and then they would go there and I mean -- 14 yeah, so they never said hiring. 15 Q. Who is they? 16 A. The police never used that term. 17 Q. Did the police ever ask you if you knew what a 18 pimp was? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Did you know back then what a pimp was? 21 A. Net really. 22 Q. What do you think a pimp is? 23 A. I really hope you don't make this connection 24 tome, but I know what a pimp is and — 25 Q. Tell me what you think a pimp is. Page 77 1 MR. HOROWffZ: There is no question pending. 2 MR. CRITTON: I'm asking a question. Don't 3 interrupt her when she is answering. Wait a 4 minute, let me just finish and then you can give your little speech too. 6 You haven't had any problem letting her give 7 an answer and extending her answer when it has 8 nothing to do with anything. Now she is giving an 9 answer and you don't like it, so you are chopping 10 her off. 11 MR. HOROWITZ: No, no, I don't even know what 12 she's going to say. 13 MR. CRITTON: Exactly, so let her talk. She's 14 responding to my question. 15 MR. HOROWITZ: No, the way a deposition wales 16 is there is questions and answers. Sometimes the 17 questions go in different directions, sometimes the 18 answers go in different directions, but at no point 19 should somebody be answering something when there 20 is no question pending. 21 MR. CRITTON: Rachel, would you read back the 22 question and answer. 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can we take a break soon? 24 MR. CRITTON: I want to — how much time do we 25 have? (561) 832-7500 20 (Pages 74 to 77) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107818 Page 78 1 (A portion of the record was read by the 2 reporter.) 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 Q. Tell me what you thought. What were you going 5 to say to me about if you ever thought what? 6 A. I don't really — I mean I think we should just move on. I don't a Q. So you don't remember what your thought was 9 now? 10 A. I mean I don't want you to try to change it 11 around to make me look — 12 Q. Not trying to change it. lin just trying to 13 get what you were going to say. 14 A. If I ever would have thought that Jeffrey 15 would have done half the things I know that he did now 16 to people, I never would have asked anybody to go there. 17 MR. CRITTON: Okay. Let's save that thought 18 and take a break. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 20 11:15 a.m. 21 (A recess was taken.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:. We're back on the record at 23 11:24 a.m. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. Back to the statement — in fact, lees go Page 80 1 said. I just remember telling them in general like what 2 happened. 3 Q. All right. So if the police report, their 4 probable cause affidavit says that the second occasion 5 you went, the only other occasion you went, that you 6 went with E. and Jane Doe 4, you just don't remember 7 that as you sit here? 8 • A. I — now you jogged my memory. I didn't 9 remember what exactly 1 told them. It was seven years 10 ago. 11 Q. Actually it was in 2005. We're in 2010, so it 12 was something less than five years ago. 13 A. Sorry, five. It was a while ago. !just — 14 Q. Again, when you gave the statement to the 15 police in October, on October 4th of 2005, that was very 16 close to when you would have been at Mr. Epstein's home, 17 again depending on what year you choose, but as you say, 18 five years closer than today, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. Now do you remember telling the 21 police on the second occasion that you went is that you 22 did not provide a massage to Mr. Epstein? 23 A. Yeah, I think I just said I went with 24 somebody. I remember just going once with. and not 25 doing anything, just sitting in the kitchen while she I Page 79 1 back to your statement. Well, lees stick with — lets 2 start again. Pm going to stay with what you told the 3 Palm Beach police. 4 On the second occasion when you went, the 5 second and last occasion you told the Palm Beach police 6 you went to ht. E in's home. I think you said you 7 think a. drove, may have gone, may not have, and B either n or went, correct? 9 A. I don't remember. I guess correct. 10 Q. And when you went the second time, did you 11 tell the police the second and last time, did you tell 12 them what occurred on the second time? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. What's your best recollection as to what you 15 did tell them? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Did you remember telling them on the second 18 time that you went let me strike that. 19 Do you remember telling them on the second 20 occasion that you took, that you went with El and 21 another girl named Jane Doe 4? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. Do you remember saying that to the police? 25 A. I told you I don't remember exactly what I Page 81 1. went up there and did the massage. 2 Q. All right. Do you also remember telling the 3 police at no time did Mr. Epstein remove the towel 4 sound his body? 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 6 THE WITNESS: I believe 1 said he just like 7 laid it over him, yes. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 Q. Right. And you also told the police at no 10 time did he masturbate, true? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if I told the 13 police that or not. 14 BY MR. CRITTON: 15 Q. But if you told them that, was that true? 16 A. If I told them that he never masturbated? 17 Q. Yes, meam. 18 A. Absolutely not. 19 Q. So again, that would have been something else 20 now you are saying that you would have lied to the 21 police about? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait, form. What you aro doing 23 is totally disingenuous. The objection is to form. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. If I were to ask you to assume that you told (561) 832-7500 21 (Pages 78 to 81) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107819 3 4 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 82 1 the police at no time did you see Mr. Epstein masturbate, would that have been a lie? A. Can you repeat that? Q. Sure. Well, PI I have Rachel read it back, dam• (A portion of the record was read by the reporter•) MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. CRITFON: Q. From October 4th through 2005, including the filing of your complaint, your amended complaint, your interrogatories, supplemental answer to interrogatories, having talked with the FBI as you described earlier, did you ever go back and tell the Palm Beach police or offer to go back and tell the Palm Beach police that you had lied and you now wanted to tell them the truth? A. No. I told the FBI that. I had told the FBI that I lied to the Palm Beach police, and I figured that they would tell the Palm Beach police exactly what happened MR. CRITTON: Move to strike. Let me ask you my question again. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. At any time did you ever go back from Page 84 1 A. I told her what happened and asked her if she 2 talked to the police, and I can't remember if she talked 3 to than or not. 4 Q. Did you tell her that you had lied to the 5 police? 6 A. I told her I didn't tell the police 7 everrilin& 8 Q Did you tell her — my question was did you 9 tell her 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. Let me ask the question so it's clear. 12 Did you tell Jane Doe 4 that you had lied to 13 the police? 14 A. I don't remember. 15 Q You are aware that Jane Doe 4 is a plaintiff, 16 she's also bringing a suit for $50 million or something 17 against Mr. Epstein, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. You are aware that she's represented by 20 your current attorneys? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. How did you find out that Jane Doe 4 23 had brought a lawsuit against Mr. Epstein? 24 A. She told me. 25 Q. Okay. When did she tell you? Page 83 1 October 4, 2005, up through the filing of your 2 complaint, your answers to interrogatories, your 3 supplemental answers to interrogatories, up through 4 today, have you ever gone back to the Palm Beach Police 5 Department and said "I'd like to correct my testimony, 6 because I lied to you"? 7 it No. I told you I told the FBI - 8 Q. I don't want to know — go ahead. Just a yes 9 a no is fine that question. 10 A. No. 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Foot 12 BY MR. CItITTON: 13 Q. Thank you. 14 All right, at some point-- well, let me go 15 back to the police. You talked to the police for an 16 hour, hour and a half. You never spoke with them again. 17 correct? 18 A. (Witness nods head up and down.) 19 Q. Okay. Did you call any of your friends and 20 tell them that, that you had spoken to the police? Did 21 you call Jane Doe 4? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why? Why did you call Jane Doe 4? 24 A. Because she is one of my good friends. 25 Q. What did you tell her? Page 85 1 A. When we were up, living up in Orlando 2 together. 3 Q. And during what time period were you and Jane 4 Doe 4 living in Orlando together? 5 A. It was about a year ago, in the summer she 6 moved up there. 7 Q. Okay. A. So 9 Q. Sometime in 2008? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what brought up the fact that she had 12 filed a lawsuit? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. You had not brought a lawsuit until 15 September 10, 2008. So Jane Doe 4's lawsuit was filed 16 before yours, correct? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: If you know. 18 BY MR. CRIT1PON: 19 Q. Til ask you to assume that date. 20 MR. HOROWITZ: If you know. 21 THE WITNESS: I guess, yes. I don't know. 22 BY MR. CR1TTON: 23 Q. She said she had filed a lawsuit. Did she say 24 why? 25 A. I don't think so. (561) 832-7500 22 (Pages 82 to 85) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107820 Page 86 Q. Did she tell you why she had brought a 2 lawsuit? 3 A. No. I mean I knew what happened between her and Jeffrey, some of it, so I just figured it was because of what happened. o Q. Okay. Well, Jane Doe 4, you knew what lane Doe 4 was doing at Mr. Epstein's during the time she was going to Mr. Epstein's, true? 9 ML HOROWITZ: Form. 10 THE WITNESS: I didn't know everything that 11 was going on. 12 BY MR. CRITION: 13 Q. She was telling you, though, some of the 14 things that were going on, correct? 15 A. A little bit, yes. 16 Q. When do you believe Jane Doe 4 started going 17 to Mr. Epstein's? 18 A. I don't really know. Fm assuming around the 19 same time I did. 20 Q. Do you know whether she went before or after 21 you for the first time? 22 A. I think she went after me. I'm not sure, 23 though. 24 Q. And what makes you think she, Jane Doe 4, went 25 after you? Page 88 1 Q. Before she went back to Lynn University? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And what, when she was up there, was it just 4 the two of you living in the apartment? 5 A There were two other girls. 6 Q. Who were they? 7 A. I forget what girls we were living with at the' 8 time. I don't remember what girls we were living with. 9 I think, because a lot of the girls left to go out of 10 town, so — I don't know. 11 Q. All right. So sometime May through August of 12 '08 she, Jane Doe 4, was living there with you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. And she told you during that time 15 that she had filed a lawsuit against Mr. Epstein? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Did she tell you who her lawyers were? 18 A. 'don't think so. 19 Q. What did she tell you about the lawsuit? 20 A. She didn't tell me much. She just said she 21 was filing a lawsuit against him. 22 Q. Did she say why? 23 A. No. She — no, !just assumed because it was 24 what happened. 25 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, did you say "Well, Jane Doe Page 87 1 A. I don't know. I don't remember exactly. 2 Q. Did you ever talk to Jane Doe 4, when 3 asked you if you wanted to go to Mr. Epstein's, did you 4 ever, at that time were you aware that Jane Doe 4 had 5 gone? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Were you, other than -who you knew had 8 gone, were you aware of anyone else who had gone to 9 Mr. Epstein's at the time you first wan? 10 A. No, I don't think so. 13. _Q. All right. So let's get back to 2008, and 12 MI— I'm sorry, Jane Doe 4 was living with you in 13 Orlando during the summer of 2008? 14 A. (Witness nods bead up and down.) 15 Q. Yes? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. For how long a time period? 18 A. Just for the summer. 19 Q. Are we talking June through August? 20 A. I think March through May. 21 Q. Of '08? 22 A. Oh, no, no, sorry, it was May yeah, 23 probably May through August. I don't really remember. 24 It was during the summer, before her classes started 25 again. Page 89 , 1 4, you went ova there voluntarily. Why would you file 2 a lawsuit? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I never said that. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. Did you say to her "You know, you got paid 7 money while you went. Why would you file a lawsuit when 8 you knew" — strike that. 9 Did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you how many times 10 she went to Mr. Epstein's home? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did she tell you what happened at 13 Mr. Epstein's home on any of the visits? 14 A. Briefly. 15 Q. What did she tell you? 16 A. Told me about how he asked her to go on a trip 17 with her — or with him, but I saw the underwear that he 18 bought her and I remember him getting her a car. And 19 just briefly, I mean we didn't go into detail that much. 20 Q. So you and Jane Doe 4 have been great, best 21 friends since when? 22 A. Well, we've been good friends since my 23 freshman year of high school. 24 Q. Which would have been '02? 25 A. I believe so. (561) 832-7500 23 (Pages 86 to 89) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107821 Page 90 1 Q. AR right. So from 2002 up through the 2 current time, March of 2010, you and Jane Doe 4 have 3 been best friends, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. And you said I asked you if Jane 6 Doe 4 told you why she filed a lawsuit, and you said 7 well, she told me about some of the things that 8 happened. You say that, one of the aspects you said is 9 Mr. Epstein asked her to go on a trip with him, right? 10 That's what she told you? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. HOROWITZ: FORM 13 BY MR. CRITTON: 14 Q. Okay. Did she? 15 A. No. 16 Q. All right. And did she tell you why she 17 didn't go on the trip with him? 18 A. No. 19 Q. All right. And she said that Mr. Epstein also 20 bought her some underwear? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. Did she wear it? 23 A. I don't lmow if she did or not 24 Q. So he bought her underwear and what's, what 25 was, what in your mind was I'd say inappropriate or 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 92 seem to be disturbed in any way about that? A. Yeah, she thought it was kind of weird. Q. Did you say 'Well, gee, when he bought the underwear for you, did you ever go back to Mr. Epstein's if you thought that was so weird?" Did you ask that question? A. No, I did not. Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that based upon the fact that she, Jane Doe 4, related to you that it was weird that Mr. Epstein had bought her underwear, you would have assumed then, based on her comment to you, that she never would have returned to Mr. Epstein's after that point because she thought it was weird, coned? MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. THE WITNESS: I don't remember what exactly she thought. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. What was her reaction to, at least what she purportedly told you, that Mr. Epstein had bought her a sex toy? MR. HOROWITZ: Pam. ME WITNESS: I think she just thought it was inappropriate. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17, 18 Page 91 shocking at least as Jane Doe 4 related to you as, that Mr. Epstein brought her underwear? What was the problem with that? A. I think he bought her like a sex toy or something too. I just thought it was weird that an old man or older guy, sorry, would do that. Q. Okay. Did you think, did she tell you that she wore the underwear? A. She never told me. Q. Did she tell you, did she describe a sex toy that she alleges that Mr. Epstein bought for her? A. No. Q. Did she tell you she used it? A. I didn't go into the sexual details with her. Q. Okay. Did she tell you she used it and she enjoyed it? A. She never told me that she used it and enjoyed it. 19 Q. Would that have made a difference to you? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 Q. Did the fact, separate and apart from your 24 opinion, the fact that Jane Doe 4 said he had bought, p..5 be, Mr. Epstein had bought underwear for her, did she (561) 832-7500 Page 93 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. And did she describe what the sex toy was? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 . Q. Did she tell you whether it was a vibrator 5 a -- 6 A. I don't think it was a vibrator, but I don't 7 remember. 8 Q. And you knew what a vibrator was in 2008, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you know what a vibrator was in 2007? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In 2006? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And since when? How long have you known what 16 a vibrator is? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 Q. Were you aware of what a vibrator was when you 21 were a freshman in high school? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. How about a sophomore? 24 A. I don't really remember when I knew, found out 25 what that was. 24 (Pages 90 to 93) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107822 Page 94 1 Q. Well, certainly she, meaning lane Doe 4, is 2 telling you that he brought her a vibrator, and she 3 thought it was inappropriate, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. And did you say "Gee, did you ever 6 go back to Mr. Epstein's home after he brought you the 7 vibrator?" A. I never asked her that, if she did or not. I 9 don't remember when she bought it or he got it for her. 10 Q. Well, assuming that he bought the vibrator for 11 her sometime during the time she was going to 12 Mr. Epstein's house, based at least upon what she said 13 to you she thought it was inappropriate, you would have 14 expected her never to return to Mr. Epstein's home, 15 correct? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I mean that was her opinions 18 and her own, I mean status with him. So I didn't 19 really know what she was thinking or what she 20 thought besides — 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. She thought it was inappropriate, but it 23 wouldn't have prevented her, at least what she told you, 24 from going to Mr. Epstein's home, correct? 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. Page 96 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Pam. 2 THE WITNESS: Weird and inappropriate might be 3 different from my perspective to her perspective. 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 Q. So you think him having purchased — did he 6 ever purchase underwear for you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. !assume he never bought a 9 toy for you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So you would have considered those both 12 inappropriate and weird if he had done that, the eight 13 to ten times you claim that you went, you would have 14 said I'm never going back because that's weird and 15 Inappropriate, right? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 17 THE WITNESS: I mean I don't know what I would 18 have thought. If it was in the moment, I don't 19 know. I can't really remember what I was thinking 20 at that point. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. I assume, though, if you understood if Jane 23 Doe 4 was saying Mr. Epstein getting her underwear and 24 getting her a vibrator was weird and inappropriate was 25 if you had found something that was weird or vibrator or a sex 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 95 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if she went after that. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. You don't know one way or the other, she just told you she thought that him getting a sex toy fix her, • vibrator for her was inappropriate? A. Yes, she said it was weird, so — Q. You used the word inappropriate. That's why I used it. MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Inappropriate, weird. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Sarno thing to you? A. Same thing. Q. So if something happened that was weird or inappropriate from your perspective, you never would have gone back to Mr. Epstein's home, would you? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: This is Igm after I stopped going. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. I understand that, but if something weird or inappropriate had happened at Mr. Epstein's home during the time you were going, you never would have returned, would you? Page 97 1 inappropriate that had happened at Mr. Epstein's house, 2 whether it was the first time, the second or third or 3 fourth, you wouldn't have returned, would you, because 4 you would have said why should I go back to somebody's 5 house where something weird or inappropriate is 6 happening, correct? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: I thought everything was weird 9 and inappropriate that he was doing, so — 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11. Q. And you knew that 12 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait, you're cutting — 13 MR. CR/TTON: Go ahead. Now you want her to 14 finish. Go ahead. 15 MR. HOROWITZ: I always want her to finish. 16 MR. CRITTON: Yeah, right. 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Move to strike. 18 MR. CRITTON: Do you want the answer read back 19 so you can fill in the blank? 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. Okay. Were done with your answer? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. CRITION: Would you read me the question 25 and answer back. In fact, just let me look over (561) 832-7500 25 (Pages 94 to 97 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 3 EFTA01107823 Page 98 your shoulder, Rachel. Okay. 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 Q. Okay. So if I understood your testimony, you 4 said that every time or — let me strike again, start 5 Win- 6 If I understand your testimony, it's your 7 testimony that everything that occurred at Mr. Epstein's 8 house when you were there was weird and inappropriate? 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 THE WITNESS: I mean yes, to some degree I 11 thought was. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. And you knew that at the time it was weird and 14 inappropriate, the eight to ten times that you were 15 there, correct? 16 A. I mean at first I didn't — I mean now I know 17 that it's weird and inappropriate. I mean but then I 18 think I was so confused and I didn't really know what ! 19 was doing, and I mean I don't know, 1 was young and 1 20 wasn't thinking. 21 Q. Well, however old you were, depending on which 22 dates we use here, is it's your testimony that what you 23 believe occurred at Mr. Epstein's home, even when you 24 were at whatever age you were, whether it was 16 or 17 25 or whatever age, you thought it was weird and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 100 her. I don't know, her car might have been not working. I don't really remember. Q. You mean he like rented a car to help her out? A. Yes, I think so. Q. Did she think that was weird or inappropriate? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't remember. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. All right. Well, my original question was what did she tell you as to why she was filing a lawsuit against Mr. Epstein? And I think your answer was he asked her on a trip, underwear and a sex toy and a car. MR. HOROWITZ: Form. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. So my question again is what else, if anything, did she tell you as to what the basis of her suit was against Mr. Epstein? A. I mean I assumed he did to her what he did to me, so I'm assuming that's why she would sue him. Q. Okay. My question is what did she tell you, not what you assumed. What did she tell you? A. I don't exactly remember what she told me. Q. Did she tell you anything other than the trip, the underwear, the vibrator, and the car? Page 99 1 inappropriate, true? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 THE WITNESS: I mean yeah, I thought it was 4 uncomfortable, yes. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. All right. And uncomfortable now, that's a 7 new word, so can 1- is weird equal to inappropriate 8 versus uncomfortable to you? 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 Q. Can I use those as synonyms, basically the 12 same meaning? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right Now back to Jane Doe 4 again. 15 She's telling you, she's now living with you in Orlando 16 during the summer of '08. She told you that Mr. Epstein 17 asked her on a trip. She thought that was 18 inappropriate. She didn't go. He got her underwear and 19 a sex toy, vibrator. She thought that was 20 inappropriate. You said he got her a car. 21 For what? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. What did she tell you? 25 A. 1 don't exactly remember why he bought it for Page 101 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 Q. All right. So Jane Doe 4, who is your best 5 friend, who was going to Mr. Epstein's during, about the 6 same time you were, whatever, if that was in 04, '05, 7 whatever the dates were, now she is telling you about a 8 lawsuit she's filed, and you can't remember anything 9 that she's ever told you about what she did at 10 Mr. Epstein's house; is that correct? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 THE WITNESS: I mean I remember just the main 13 points, like I remember the car was like a big 14 deal, the sex toy, the underwear. That was a big 15 deal. 1 remember like the main things that 16 happened. I don't remember every little detail she 17 told me about what happened at Jeffrey's. 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. Did she tell you any of the details of what 20 happened at Mr. Epstein's? 21 A. Like I said, 'don't remember. I knew that he 22 tried a lot with her, because she went there a lot, but 23 I don't exactly remember what exactly he tried with her 24 and did on her. Sono. 25 Q. Did she ever tell you? (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT 26 (Pages 98 to 101) REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107824 Page 102 1 A. I don't remember. She probably did and I just 2 forget exactly what she told me. 3 Q. At any time during the time she was going to 4 Mr. Epstein's home and you knew she was going there, did 5 she ever tell you that anything inappropriate had ever 6 occurred? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: 1 mean I thought the underwear 9 was inappropriate. I thought asking to go on a 10 trip is inappropriate. So 1 mean yes. 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 Q. Okay. And as of, during the time again she 13 was at Mr. Epstein's house and up until the time that 14 the police interviewed you in October, on October 4th of 15 2005, did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you that anything that 16 had occurred at Mr. Epstein's house had caused her any 17 embarrassment or humiliation? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 20 BY MR. CRITTON: 21 Q. Did she ever tell you that she was in any way 22 assaulted or in any way physically abused at 23 Mr. Epstein's home? 24 A. !just remember her being like in shock about 25 everything and just like I !mow he tried a lot on her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 104 Q. El or- one or the other? A. I think it was • I'm pretty sure, and they both knew about it. Q. So both. and %knew, because you had taken more likely than not to Mr. Epstein's home, yes? A. I mean a lot of girls in our school knew about it. Q. Knew that you were going there? A. Just knew about the whole Jeffrey thing that was going on. Q. Pretty common knowledge? A. I mean I'm not — Q. In your school? A. Not common, but I mean like m.thriends just knew about it because he targeted like El targeted lot of my friends. Q. Well, she may have asked you, she didn't necessarily target — you were her friend? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. You don't know whether she targeted you or not. She asked you if you wanted to go to Mr. Epstein's didn't know? MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. Page 103 1 just because she went there a lot and he really liked 2 her and L.A. 3 So I mean I think that's, you know — I 4 don't — 5 Q. Did she, Jane Doe 4, during the time she was 6 going to Mr. Epstein's house, did she tell you she was 7 in shock? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 9 THE WITNESS: That was my opinion, that she 10 was kind of in shock over everything, because, I 11 don't know. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. I want to focus on a time period. Prior to 14 the October 4th visit from the Palm Beach police, okay? 15 Before, in essence, someone other than your friends knew 16 that, at least from your perspective, that you had been 17 to Mr. Epstein's home - in fact, !should probably ask 18 it this way. 19 Who knew that you had gone to Mr. Epstein's 20 home before the ice came there? Cenainly. did. 21 A. Yes, MI and Jane Doe 4 and 22 Q. Because you had taken ■ and to 23 Mr. Epstein's home? 24 A. I had just taken. one of the sisters, 25 like I told you. Page 105 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 Q. You could have said yes and you could have 4 said no? 5 A. I mean yes, that's true. 6 Q. All right. And your decision to go to 7 Mr. Epstein's was a voluntary one; that is, again, 8 because you could have said sure, I'll go; or no, no 9 interest, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And my guess is u are aware of girls, 12 females at your school who El asked to go and they 13 said no, Pm not going, or I don't have any interest, 14 right? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So everyone that. ever asked — 17 A. I don't !mow exactly who asked. 18 Q. Are you aware of anyone who asked that 19 didn't want to go? 20 A. No. 21 right. And in fact, you and others would 22 ask MI if you could go to Mr. Epstein's; isn't that 23 true? 24 A. No. Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that you never o V MD. (561) 832-7500 St6cladaTi 27 (Pages 102 to 105) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-750.6 EFTA01107825 Page 106 asked if you could go to Mr. Epstein's? • A. asked me twice, and then asked me • from then on. So I never asked. to go. Q. Okay. Did you ever make a call to=? ▪ A. No,Milivould always call — MR. HOROWITZ: Let him finish. You know what 7 each other is going to say, but let him finish. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 Q. Did you ever make a call to M? 10 A. No, not that I could remember. 11 Q. And if called you, she basically said, 12 in essence the conversation was "Would you like to conic 13 over today?" 14 A. Yeah, she asked me what my schedule was and 15 when I had school and classes and like what days I could 16 come. 17 Q. And that was the extent of the conversation, 18 it was strictly a scheduling? 19 A. No, and she asked me if I knew anybody too 20 that I would want to bring for a massage. 21 Q. Okay. And that was the extent of the 22 conversation, at least as to you? Whatever 23 conversations you had with Sarah, she may have called 24 you on the phone and she said basically is what's your 25 schedule? Can you come at a certain time, or what times Page 108 1 been confused because you had time to think about it and 2 say no or simply not go, correct? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Rim. 4 THE WITNESS: I mean I guess you would say 5 that. 6 BY MR. CRI1TON: 7 Q. All right And in temis of — all right, I'll 8 come back to that in a bit Lame get back to, I think 9 I was on Jane Doe 4 before I got off on a little tangent 10 here, so let me go back to Jane Doe 4. 11 When she told you through the summer well, 12 let me strike that. 13 During the time that she was going to 14 Mr. Epstein's, you said she never said she was 15 embarrassed or humiliated or had been traumatized, 16 correct? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. That is, she never told you that? 20 A. I mean I could tell that obviously she, she 21 was just kind of under a spell of him lace buying her 22 things and giving her things and going them so much. 23 And I could tell she was just kind of — you 'mow, he 24 was just kind of brainwashing her, her and L.A. That's 25 why I stopped going, because it just had got too much Page 107 1 can you come? That was one aspect of the conversation, 3 comet? A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And if you didn't want to go, you would 6 have said rm not interested, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. So you had to again make a 9 voluntary decision, number one, to pick up the phone if 10 Sarah was calling you so you could talk to her and say 3.1 either yes or no, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. AM then you had to make a volun er ail 14 consensual decision once you talked witL i a to giVe 15 her your schedule or not, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then you had to ultimately schedule a time 18 to go over to Mr. Epstein's, and then you would have to 19 get in your car or however you — mostly your car so you 20 could transport yourself over there, true? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So in all of those, you had to make a decision 23 to say yes, yes, yes, yes, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And in each those instances, you wouldn't have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT Page 109 the last visit. So — Q. This is, L.A. is LA.? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And did L.A. go to Mr. Epstein's home too? A. Yes. Q. Were you ever present when LA. was there? A. No. Q. How old was LA. when she went? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think 18. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. And therefore, at 18 she could decide to either go or not go, just like Jane Doe 4 or you or anyone else, true? A. Yes. Q. All right. Were you ever — I may have just asked you this. I was thinking about something else. Were you ever present when L.A. was there? A. No. Q. Are you aware that LA. ever went with Jane Doe 4? A. I think they went together before. Q. Okay. Did they tell you that? A. I think Jane Doe 4 told me she went with L.A. 4 28 (Pages 106 to 109) REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107826 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 110 1 I don't ICI ber. 2 Q. Did either L.A. or Jane Doe 4 ever describe to 3 you up until the time you were interviewed by the Palm 4 Beach Police Department that they were, had been in any 5 way embarrassed, humiliated or traumatized by any of 6 their visits to Mr. Epstein's home? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, at that point nobody knew 9 about it yet, so I'm sure they wouldn't have been 10 embarrassed, because I mean their parents didn't 11 !mow like they do now, or Jane Doe 4's sister or 12 anybody else, you guys depositioned for her. So I 13 mean at that point they probably wouldn't have been 14 embarrassed. 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 Q. Or humiliated, right, because they chose to go 17 there? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 THE WITNESS: At the point they were young and 20 they weren't really thinking, as I. So — 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. All I'm asking is what they have told you 23 okay? Or whet you observed. 24 So would it be a correct statement as of the 25 time you were interviewed by the Palm Beach police, you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 112 awful experience, that's something that you would generally remember, isn't it? MR. HOROWITZ: Forth. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Especially a good friend lace Jane Doe 4? A. Yeah, I {mew he tried a lot of stuff on her and she was definitely uneasy with it and, you know, I just think she just kept going for the money basically. Q. Did she tell you she was uneasy with it? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: I forget exactly what she told me, but the summary of it was that she — BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Summer of '08 now she is telling you this? MR. HOROWITZ: She said the sum of It, I think. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Are you saying the sum of it. A. The sum of it was that she was uneasy and didn't want to go there, but she was basically just going for the int.nrry. Q. Well, did she tell you that she was going back to Mr. Epstein's because she wanted to make money? A. No, that's what I asstnned. Q. Again, I want to know what she told you versus Page 111 1 didn't notice that Jane Doe 4 was either embarrassed or 2 humiliated for having gone to Mr. Epstein's, true? 3 A. I don't think she was embarrassed or 4 humiliated, because nobody knew about it, so — 5 Q. And from at least what she either told you or 6 what you observed, she didn't say she was traumatized in 7 any way because she kept going, right? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean she was obviously didn't want to go, but she kept going I think just for the money and just because he was good at smooth talking and I mean just made her feel comfortable. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Move to strike. Let me ask you my question again. Did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you she was traumatized as of the date you gave your interview to the Palm Beach police, October 4th of 2005, that she had been traumatized in any way by Mr. Epstein? MR. HOROWITZ: Farr THE WITNESS: I don't remember. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. All right. Well, if one of your friends told you that they had had a traumatic experience or some Page 113 1 what you assumed. 2 So would it be a correct statement, she didn't 3 tell you she was in any way traumatized or emotional ly 4 or psychologically damaged by anything that was 5 occurring with Mr. Epstein? 6 She never said that to you, did she? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Did Jane Doe 4, 10 as of October 4 of 2005 when the Palm Beach police came 11 to interview you, up to that point, had Jane Doe 4 ever 12 said to you that she was in any way traumatized either 13 emotionally or mentally by any of her visits to 14 Mr. Epstein's home? 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 Q. What she told you. 18 A. 1 don't remember exactly if she ever told me 19 she was traumatized or what — it was so long ago, 1 20 can't remember everything she said to me. I just 21 remember the main parts that stick out. 22 Q. The car, the trip, the sex toy and the 23 underwear. That's what you remember? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that's what she told you in May or the (561) 832-7500 29 (Pages 110 to 113) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107827 Page 114 1 summer of '08 when she was living with you? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 Q. Right? 5 A. Yes. Q. And you don't remember anything else -- 7 A. Well, I mean I knew about the car I mean B before she was living with me. 9 Q. I understand, but at least that's the first 1.0 time — strike that. 11 At least as of October 4th of '05 when you 12 were interviewed by the Palm Beach police, you don't 13 remember anything else that stands out in your mind 14 where Jane Doe 4 told you anything bad had occurred at 15 Mr. Epstein's? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 17 BY MR. CRITTON: 18 Q. As you sit here today that you can relate, 19 correct? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: I mean she did tell me stuff I 22 knew the was going a lot and I know he was really 23 trying stuff on her, and I just can't remember the 24 details. I 'mew about all that before the police 25 even came, and I knew about the car before the Page 116 A. Yes. 2 Q. And as of the time you were interviewed, you 3 were no longer seeing Mr. Epstein? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Had you made a decision not to see him anymore 6 at some point? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And even though you were at whatever age, you 9 made a conscious decision I don't want to go to 10 Mr. Epstein's home anymore? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Right? And you could have made that decision 13 on the first visit, the second, the third, the fourth, 14 the fifth, any time up until the time you stopped, 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And with regard to Jane Doe 4, was she aware 18 that you had been to Mr. Epstein's on a number of 19 occasions? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. Did you tell her? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you ever tell her why you stopped going to 25 Mr. Epstein's? Page 115 1 police came. I don't know if I knew — I don't 2 know if the underwear was before or after the 3 police. 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 Q. Did you ever say to her if he was, quote, 6 unquote, trying stuff is why are you going back? 7 A. No. I mean that's her own deal and her own decision. 9 Q. All right. And in fact she was 18 at the 10 time? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. She was a her of 2005, 14 she's iS a freshmanfillia, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And you and Jane Doe 4 are the same 17 age? 18 A. We're around the same age, yeah_ Well, yeah. 19 Q. I mean, I'm sorry, you may not be the exact 20 same age, but you were also now at Itip in 21 Orlando? 22 A. Yes, 23 Q. In '05, correct? 24 A. Yes, 25 Q. So you were away at college too? vaamemsedsessamisseransaw— Page 117 1 A. I believe so. 2 Q. What did you tell her? 3 A. I don't really remember. I just remember 4 telling her the last time was, made me feel really 5 uncomfortable and he definitely had forcefully tried to 6 do stuff with me, and that's why I stopped going. 7 Q. Okay. And at least from your perspective, if 8 he hadn't as you allege forcefully tried to do 9 something, you would have continued to go see 10 Mr. Epstein? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 THE WITNESS: No, because every time I went 13 there, he would try more and more and more, and to 14 the point where I was done. And so I wouldn't have 15 continued to keep going. 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 Q. Okay. And you told that, it's your testimony 18 you told Jane Doe 4 that? 19 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think I 21 told her. I just, I don't remember for sure 22 exactly. I think I did tell her. 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 Q. All right. 25 A. Because I think she asked me why 1 didn't go 30 (Pages 114 to 117) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. . (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107828 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 118 1 there anymore. I don't remember exactly what 1 told 2 her, though. 3 Q. Did she, Jane Doe 4, tell you that she enjoyed going to Mr. Epstein's? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Would you be surprised if her deposition she testified to that fact? Mit HOROWTM: Penn. TIME WITNESS: I manlike Dolman. he brainwashed everybody. At the point where he was asking her to get on private jets and go on vacations, maybe, I don't BY MR. CANTON: Q. My question is did she tell you? There is a distinction between what you are assuming and what she mid you. In fact, Rachel, would you go back — MR. HOROWITZ: Your question was — MR CRITTON: Fm going to have it read back. (A portion of the record was read by the reporter.) BY MR. CRITTON: Q. When you tented with Jane Doe 4 in May or during the summer of '08 when she told you she had brought her lawsuit, did she tell you what she was Page 120 1 lawyers had anything to do with you going to 2 Mr. Epstein's the first time, did they? 3 A. Of course not, no. 4 Q. Okay. In fact, it was, more importantly, the 5 second time you went to Mr. Epstein's, that was 6 completely a voluntary consensual decision that you made 7 in your own mind to go back to his home, not 8 Mr. Epstein, but your decision, correct? 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, when I was around 16 at 11 the time. I mean yeah. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. Just a yes or a no, okay? I know you want to 14 justify what you did or not did, so kt me ask a clean 15 question. 16 At the time you went to Mr. Epstein's the 17 second time -- you went to Mr. Epstein's the first time 18 with El correct? 19 A. Uh huh. 20 Q. All right Yes? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. The second time you went to 23 Mr. Epstein's, that was completely your decision, right? 24 MR. HOROWITZ: Font 25 THE WITNESS: I already told you that, yes. Page 119 1 looking for? That is, what did she want from 2 Mr. Epstein? 3 A. She just wanted justice. She was upset like 4 every other girl and she just wanted, you know, more 5 than anything to see him in jail, and I mean yeah. 6 Q. And ultimately he was in jail at that time, was he not? 8 A. That was like a slap on the wrist basically. 9 Q. How do you know? It's the justice system. 10 Let me start again. 11 A. Because I read all the newspapers and I think 12 'know — 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I mean if you have money, I mean he could 15 hire, afford to hire you and other great lawyers that 16 make girls feel like crap and don't mind doing it, so -- 17 Q. Well, I had nothing to do with your going to 18 Mr. Epstein's the first occasion, did I? 19 A. I mean — 20 Q. Yes or no? 21 A. You don't think it was wrong what he did? 22 Q. Yes or no, did I have anything to do with you 23 ever going to Mr. Epstein's? 24 A. Of course not. I didn't know you back then. 25 Q. Thank you. And in fact, none of Mr. Epstein's Page 1.. 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. And Mr. Epstein had nothing to do with that, 3 it was your decision to either go or not go? 4 A. He's the one that got the girls to go there. 5 He had everything to do with it. 6 Q. But it was your decision to go or not, not 7 Mr. Epstein's? 1 mean he could ask r ru to come back. 8 A. He never would have asked to hunt down 9 girls to bring them there. I never would have went 10 there, I never would have been put in that position. I 11 don't think anybody when they are 16 years old should 12 have been put in that position by a 55 or however old he 13 Ismail. 14 Q Let me ask you this. I think you said you 15 took to Mr. Epstein's home. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How many times had you been to Mr. Epstein's 18 home before you took IMI.? 19 A. I think I took her like the second visit, lace 20 around the second visit 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. He didn't really try that much with me the 23 first visit. If1 would have known everything he was 24 doing with girls like I have known now, I never would 25 have asked any other girlfriends to go. (561) 832-7500 31 (Pages 118 to 121) PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107829 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 122 Q. Move to strike. I think you said you took after your second visit, or was it — A. I think around the second or the third. I don't know exactly. Q. When did you take. if she's the one you took? When did you take her? A. I think around — I don't know. I don't remember what visit, but I remember it was towards the beginning. Q. Did you not, those are the only two you ever took? A. Yes. Q. Why would you take — I mean you had to make the decision, you in essence did the same thing — A. Q. !have to ask the question. A Sony. Q. When took-you were doing the sane thing that MI was doing, were you not? MR. HOROWITZ: Form. THE WITNESS: el asked me to go. BY MR. CRITTON: Q. Whether she asked you or not, when el asked you to go, asked you to take her, in essence, you were Page 124 1 I heard about, my friends were doing it and going there 2 and — 3 Q. Do you think whir did was wrong? 4 A. Honestly, I think was just brainwashed by 5 hint, and I feel bad for her, because I maul that was 6 wrong what he did, brainwashing her to bring other 7 girls. 8 Q. When you took — 9 MR. CRITTON: How much time? 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Two minutes. 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 Q. All right. You took correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And did you ask her if she wanted to go? 15 A. No. She heard about it too and she asked me 16 about it. And I told her I went, and then she asked me, 17 she was like "Oh, well, can you bring me there?" 18 Q. Did you say "No, I don't think it's — I think 19 it's uncomfortable, weird and inappropriate, I don't 20 think Til take you there"? 21 A. At the time, like it was towards the very 22 beginning when I was going that And he wasn't really 23 doing this much or trying as math with the girls as 24 towards the end that I heard about 25 Q. Okay. So you think you took el about the Page 123 1 doing the same thing that el was doing, right? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 Q. You see it in a different view because. asked you if you could go to Mr. Epstein's? A asked me to go to take her there. She 6 wanted to go. 9 Q. Okay. So I assume when you took el to 10 Mr. Epstein's, you didn't take any money from 11 Mr. Epstein from having brought her there; is that true? 12 A. T did take money. 13 Q. You did take money. How much money did you 14 take for el asking you if you could go to Mr. 15 Epstein's? 16 A. $200. 17 Q. Did you say, "Gee, I'm not going to take 18 any money for bringing you to Mr. Epstein's, that's 19 wrong. That's not something I should do. I don't want 20 to do the same thing, in essence, that. is doing"? 21 A. I didn't realize at the point that it was 22 something bad and wrong until now obviously I do, but 23 back then when I was 16, I didn't really realize, you 24 know, that it was wrong. And I, I was confused and 25 just, I mean all the girls in my high school were, that 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 125 third or fourth time you were there? A. 'think it was around the second or third as I took. and Q. Did you take them the same day? A. No, I took one like around the second time and one around the third time. I don't really remember. MR. CRITTON: Okay, let's have a break THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 12:09 am. This marks the end of tape one. (A recess was taken.) (End of Volume 1) 32 (Pages 122 to 125) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107830