EFTA Document EFTA01973003

To: From: Jeffrey Epstein Sent Tue 5/28/2013 11:06:12 AM Subject: Re: Thanks sorry, i posed a sloppy question. / From the view of understanding music, more akin to thought, i think that you need to careful that reductionism isn't taken to the absurd level, of looking at the string makeup and how it causes sympathetic vibrations, might look like intent . there is a code that says , hit these strings and a melody develops. it has a temporal component , it has amplitude, but unless it is looked at as a whole the music is not there. I like aversive , as it appears hard wired, as another out side idea, look at the mathematics of lightning, it descrives well neural firings, with energy minimization. On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Ed Boyden < wrote: The piano itself isn't quite the analogy to the brain, because it has no memory, independent of the human playing it. After the finger lifts, the strings quiets down. So I am assuming that we need to model the human playing the piano? Suppose, say, we want to understand what emotion is generating the music. If we could measure activity in the brain of the person playing the piano, and could predict what melody or sequence of notes the person would play, based on that activity, then we could infer that the internal brain activity was causing the melody. This inference might be convertible into proof, if we were to stimulate the brain and play back an activity pattern into the brain, seeing how that would alter the melody being played. And if we have a molecular map of the brain, which we could simulate on a computer, we could through biophysical simulation begin to sec how the molecular interactions between cells, yield dynamics of the network, which then yield the sequence of finger commands that yield the music. Thus, the finger is the interface between two dynamical systems -- the brain and the piano. Each of those dynamical systems has a physical implementation that can be modeled, if we have three things: -- mechanistic maps (piano: string lengths, material properties, etc.) -- dynamics (piano: the finger movements and temporal scuplting) -- control (piano: we can modulate the human and see how the music changes) Ed On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jeffrey Epstein leevacation@gmail.com> wrote: > give me a piano music analogy, / watching the strings, ? after key > inputs,? interesting byt not dispositive of anything meaningful > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Ed Boyden wrote: EFTA_R1_00458937 EFTA01973003 >> I agree we need a top-down! Two thoughts: >> -- Yes, developing mapping circuit technology and then applying it to >> simple behaviors — hard wired aversive stuff -- is indeed a way to >> go. As we plan out these mapping technologies, we're actually >> beginning experiments to map out these aversive things too. We are >> collaborating with many groups along these lines. We need to finish >> the fundamental technology building so that we can obtain maps at the >> right level, and then we can acquire datasets that are compatible with >> top-down theory, to be sure. >> -- Another way to think top-down is to work our way inwards, from the >> observables. We know that behavior -- movement, speech, other action >> -- is observable; if a feeling or thought is prominent enough, it will >> be manifest through these channels as an observable. Thus we can also >> try to infer internal states by their effects on observables, and then >> to associate neural activity with these internal states and >> observables. In theory this should scale to arbitrarily complex >> internal states, not just simple aversive states. >> >> Best, >> Ed >> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jeffrey Epstein <iggvacation@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > i think you need a top down as well as bottom up. as looking at my >» piano >> > while being played, i can go string by string ( not string theory >> > strings). hammer by hammer, material of string , molecular interaction >> > naturalvibration, harmonics, sympathtice vibration but i would not >> > hear >> > or understand the melody or music being played. I believe that each >> > individual has its own encrpytion algorithm, as the neural net » > grows >> > it encrypts some input signals. some are hard wired. so instead of >> > emotion >> > , movement, speech, etc, I think a proitable area of initail inquiry >> > should >> > be the hard wired aversive stuff only. smell of dead meat. . >> > reaction >> > to fire. i tihnk that aesthectics will be the greatest ration of >> > output to >> > input. . or the least energy to decode. . dissonance, cannot be >> > easily >> > resolved so the energy to decode the information, is too high and >> > becomes >> > painful. Does a dream state come upon us, or do we dream all the >» time EFTA_R1_00456938 EFTA01973004 >> > and concious state relegates the dreams to behind the screen. When » > sleep >> > deprived the dreams begin to pop through the screen, as >> > hallucinations. >> > a breakdown of the screen , results in a form of schizphrenia, where >» they >> > cairn no longer distiguish between voices. dream produced while awake or >> > the >> > awake state angel on the shoulder whispering. . I am an avid funder >» of >> > the bleeding edge in many fields. keep me up to date on what you are >> > doing, and hope to see you in your own habitat. » > » > >> > On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Ed Boyden wrote: » » »» Hi Jeffrey, »» »» Yes, it was great chatting about all the ways neuroengineering is »» going to go in the coming years, revealing both fundamental »» mechanistic brain maps, and providing the control knobs for fixing »» brain disorders and understanding complex phenomena like »» consciousness. Would be great to talk about how then to make »» mathematical sense of these maps and control knobs... arguably the >> >> big stumbling block to date is the lack of good data, but that's about »» to change, thanks to our current and future efforts! Then we will »» have many things that require deep mathematics to understand! » » >> >> Ed »» »» On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Joi Ito wrote: »» > Hi Jeffrey. » » > »» > Thanks for a really enjoyable conversation and your hospitality »» > tonight. »» > Look forward to connecting again and receiving you at the Media Lab >> >> > on my »» > turf ;-) » » > »»>-Joi >> >> > »» »» »» >> >> >> » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. »» Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group EFTA_R1_00456939 EFTA01973005 »» Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »» Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences »» Benessc Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, »» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator »» MIT, Room E15-421 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 >> » office - >> >> cell »» emai >> » fax »» skype - »» web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org »» twitter » > »> »> » > »>_ >> > >> > The information contained in this communication is >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >> > the use of the addressee. It is the property of >> > Jeffrey Epstein >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com and >> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >>> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >> Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >> and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator >> MIT, ' • • r Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 >> office - » cell >> ema. » fax - » skype >> web - http: synt cticncurobiology.org EFTA_R1_00456940 EFTA01973006 » twitter - > > *********************************************************** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > Jcfficy Epstein > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation©gmail.com and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator MIT, Room E15-421 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 office cell - emai fax skype web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org twitter - *********************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of Jeffrey Epstein EFTA_R1_00456941 EFTA01973007 Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacationegmail.com, and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved EFTA_R1_00456942 EFTA01973008