0:00Today's date is Thursday July 24th this will be the recording of a proffer
0:10agreement of Delane Maxwell from the Deputy Attorney General DOJ and the time
0:19is currently 9 16. Maxwell and counsel are arriving to the US Attorney's
0:26office and we will commence the proffer shortly.
0:00I'm going to ask him to put the name on the record, of course.
0:07My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge Spencer Horn of FBI New York.
0:12Today we are doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell.
0:15The date is July 24th and the time is 10, 12 a.m.
0:25This interview is being recorded.
0:30And my name is Todd Blanch.
0:32I'm Deputy Attorney General and before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell,
0:40I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me.
0:47Starting with you, Diego.
0:48Diego Pastana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.
0:51And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horn.
0:55Mark Beard from the United States Marshals Services here as well.
1:01This is David Oscar Marcus and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.
1:07My name is Thea Sapien and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.
1:11My name is Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.
1:17And I'm Gillen Maxwell.
1:21Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
1:23Good morning, Mr. Blanch.
1:26So before we started recording, we met for a few minutes.
1:29I introduced myself and we chatted and now I told you that we were going on the record.
1:34And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement.
1:44And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today.
1:53The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement,
1:57meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting.
2:01I'm not promising to do anything.
2:03I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to your case to do anything.
2:12And so that's the most important, important part of this agreement.
2:16However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection.
2:24So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.
2:33But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity.
2:37So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were ever to bring one.
2:46There's exceptions to that.
2:48The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie.
2:53We can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements.
2:57So I'm a federal officer.
3:00I have several officers here.
3:04And if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime.
3:10So you have to be truthful.
3:12The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you.
3:16But if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a criminal case, a future criminal case against you and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you say today, we can then cross examine you or witness based upon what you say today.
3:40So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case in chief.
3:46However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross examine you or the witness and say, hey, do you remember when we met with Ms.
4:02Maxwell back in July of 2025, she told us and then say what she said.
4:10Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with with with Mr.
4:16Marcus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
4:21All right. So I've already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn and Mr.
4:26Marcus signed it as well.
4:27So you got to sign it right where it says clients.
4:32And I will provide a copy of this to your lawyer so you guys have it.
4:41Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago.
4:57OK, we're just confirming that it works and it does.
5:01Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr.
5:04Marcus reached out to me and said that that you wanted to speak with somebody from the
5:11government about not only your case, but about everything that's been in the media and that's
5:18been publicized about Mr.
5:22And I did speak to him and I did ask him did tell him that I was very keen to talk to anyone
5:32because no one from the government at any time ever since the inception of the case,
5:39so dating back to the early two councils, has ever spoken to me and indeed, I believe,
5:47ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me.
5:51And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted.
5:57I believe that, or I understand I should say rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell
6:07the government that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone
6:14so that I could tell or have them ask me any questions.
6:18I've never had any problem to speak to anybody and I offered myself and I kept asking if they
6:26would make a case that I could speak to them for whatever reason.
6:31That was not happening.
6:34I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not, there's a path that, a question that
6:42I'm not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer.
6:46Same thing goes to your lawyers.
6:48Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein,
6:58I know that goes back a while, and just very generally talk about your relationship with
7:03Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death?
7:10I met Mr. Epstein in 1991.
7:16I'd never heard of him or met him before and no one in my family had ever either.
7:29My father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case.
7:34Where did you meet him?
7:37I had a girlfriend who, I had moved to America briefly in 1990.
7:53I had come to visit America in 1990.
7:58I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called Natural
8:05Corporate Gifts, and I had also been working for my father at the time.
8:12I had multiple jobs with him.
8:14I was in 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a newspaper that he was launching,
8:25called The European, and I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European.
8:37I was travelling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to,
8:48well, he'd also bought Macmillan the publishing house and he had purchased the New York Daily News.
8:57It's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him,
9:05but that's a much longer story.
9:07I don't think we need to go into it this time, but I was always working with him.
9:13There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
9:17So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that.
9:26He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News, and in fact I met, I may have met,
9:34Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much,
9:41and I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana
9:47because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.
9:51So I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad,
9:56but I knew that that's how I knew about Mr. Trump.
10:00And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?
10:04Yes, so I was already going backwards and forwards in America.
10:08And then in April of 1991, I came to New York.
10:17I can't remember for what reason, or business reason, but there was a business reason,
10:22something to do with my dad at that time.
10:24And a girlfriend of mine who was an American told me,
10:30I'd broken up with my long-term boyfriend when we broke up.
10:39So I said, as your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.
10:43And I was like, who is it?
10:45And she goes, he's been dating my sister.
10:48You'll love him. He's looking for a wife.
10:50I'm edging towards 30.
10:52I don't need to tell you guys that's an important moment for a girl
10:55to think about important things.
10:57I sure won't be happy to meet him.
11:00And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991,
11:06I met him at his offices on Madison Avenue.
11:13And I think the most memorable thing I can think about
11:18is he was wearing a tie which he didn't often give me.
11:20It had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it.
11:24So I was like, wow, OK.
11:27And that was how we met.
11:29Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally
11:34or were you there for work-related reasons?
11:38I knew nothing about him.
11:40He just invited me to come and have tea.
11:44And I was like, tea? That's English. OK.
11:46But what was unusual was in his offices.
11:48So I went to his offices and we met.
11:51And I found him very engaging and that was that.
11:57OK, so that's how you meet him.
12:00And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this particular issue,
12:06but what happened with your relationship over the years
12:10from the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he passed away?
12:15Just give the highlights.
12:16OK, so I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some.
12:24And Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment
12:28and would I help him.
12:30And I said, sure, I'm looking already so I could look for him.
12:33So that's how it started.
12:35And then in 1991, my father passed away.
12:38And I returned to New York after that,
12:41originally to come back and help with the family businesses,
12:44which was in the middle of England.
12:47And then the debacle of my father's passing hit the family
12:54and we lost all our businesses.
13:00And my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America
13:04because of the intensity of the press and the drama
13:09surrounding my father's death in England.
13:11So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me.
13:17Help me find that house and decorate the house.
13:21They gave me something to do.
13:24Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point or just friends?
13:29And with respect to your father,
13:33there have been multiple questions about whether he worked
13:39for any intelligence agency.
13:41Do you have any knowledge about that?
13:45I think, well, certainly my father had a background in intelligence
13:48because he was, I believe he did in the Second World War,
13:54he was a British intelligence officer.
13:58I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer,
14:03it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.
14:07So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was, you know,
14:12employed by any agency.
14:16But when you are a very significant businessman and politician,
14:23as my father was, you meet with people all over the time
14:28and you, I guess, trade business or ideas.
14:34I think we fall under that definition.
14:38I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing.
14:45But if you're asking me if I thought that he did help people,
14:49the answer would be yes, I did.
14:51Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years?
14:55I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
14:59As far as you know, they never even met.
15:01No, I know they never met.
15:03Well, how do you know they never met?
15:05Just categorically know they never met.
15:07Well, because after, in 1991, before my father died,
15:13he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever,
15:18because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business.
15:23And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein.
15:25And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein
15:27was because I believed at that time that Epstein worked for Bear Stearns.
15:32And Bear Stearns was one of our banks.
15:35And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Kane and with Ace Greenberg.
15:41So my dad was actually in New York, I think.
15:46I don't think I had this conversation on the phone that I was talking 30 years ago,
15:52But maybe I told him this verbatim because I haven't.
15:58I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later,
16:03I thought I don't remember.
16:05But he called both Jimmy Kane and Ace Greenberg to ask what sort of guy he was
16:12and was he even allowed to, because I don't know.
16:22He didn't even know who he was.
16:23But they knew some of the same people, it sounds like,
16:27certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that you knew that they had.
16:32Well, he never had a connection with Epstein.
16:34He had a connection with the bank.
16:36I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of him or knew of him before.
16:39And certainly if my dad had known him, right, when I said this was who he was,
16:43he didn't know who he was.
16:45So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him.
16:51I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a thing.
17:11I've had some interesting things that have happened in my life.
17:18And one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnapping and murder case.
17:27So after that happened, well, there were other related,
17:33I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein,
17:37but if you want the details, of course, if I can.
17:41But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on Epstein.
17:51And I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event.
17:58You all know the enforcement, I know you understand this.
18:01And so he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever.
18:11And so I think after that event and several others where I had to do crazy things
18:16that one has, he was always quite protective of me.
18:20And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren't going to do anything to me.
18:27They weren't going to do anything hideous.
18:29And so in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy an ace,
18:35you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just because he was concerned
18:41I was in America alone and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was.
18:47And so I don't know if I was in the room with him, I don't recall,
18:50but I know that at some point my father told me, he's fine.
18:53You can see it. He's safe.
18:58So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point,
19:03but I went down a rabbit hole for a minute.
19:05That's all right. I just wanted to...
19:06No, that's helpful. Thank you.
19:08So, okay, so you're now in the 90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein,
19:14you're decorating the house or the apartment.
19:17What happened with your relationship again?
19:20I know we're talking about a 35-year time period or whatever,
19:24but to the extent you can kind of at a very high level talk about it.
19:28Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
19:32So in 1992, I slept with him one time.
19:38And I was like, whoa, that's it. We're going to be dating.
19:41Because that's how I thought.
19:43And I kind of thought of myself in that moment,
19:47because if you slept with someone in that room and you were dating them,
19:54that's the world I came from.
19:56But that really worked. Well, that's how I thought.
19:59But we didn't sleep together again for, I don't know,
20:03really a significant period of time.
20:07I don't know if it was a year.
20:13That feels long, but maybe nine months. I mean, a long time.
20:19I just want to go back.
20:21I had found a house for him to rent in New York because he had asked me.
20:28I'd been looking for my father and I found one,
20:31which was a former Iranian embassy.
20:34I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians or the Iraqis.
20:40And I didn't know that he had any money, really.
20:44And it was, I want to say it was $20,000 a month, which really seemed like fortune.
20:50And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it.
20:54It was ridiculous. Of course I couldn't afford it.
20:57And that house came with, it was a State Department house,
21:00because I think it was under sector station or whatever it was.
21:04And I put it back together, but there were certain rules it couldn't paint
21:07because it had to go back, and he gave it back to the country.
21:11So he had this house and I had moved into a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment
21:20because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or whatever.
21:29So he became, in his moment, my life.
21:31I agree because I suspect everything felt very similar to his moment,
21:37if that makes any sense.
21:39Anyway, so, but I had no key to his house.
21:42I had no free access to his house.
21:46And then the entire time that he lived there,
21:48which was I believe until the beginning of 1996,
21:52I never slept a single night in that house, ever.
21:58But you, so you said a minute ago that you had slept with him on one occasion,
22:06and at the time you remember thinking that this meant you were in a relationship,
22:10but then it didn't, you really were not in that type of relationship.
22:14Did that change between 1991 and 1992 or whatever, and years forward?
22:20So I did travel with him.
22:25So I would go to his house in Palm Beach.
22:28He only had that house actually.
22:30No, that's not true.
22:32He had a house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.
22:39And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner.
22:46And he had a, and I had to go and decorate and put that house together.
22:52When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not in the room.
23:01Go ahead, it's okay. Talk.
23:06So you stayed, so when you would travel with him to, his house is in Palm Beach, Ohio,
23:12or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed,
23:20so sleep in the same bed with him.
23:29Epstein told me that he had a heart condition.
23:36Heart condition, okay.
23:37Which meant that he didn't have intercourse.
23:42Which he didn't have, because I actually do have a medical condition,
23:48which proves me having a lot of intercourse.
23:56So what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
24:05I mean, he liked other forms of...
24:21Well, let's come back.
24:22We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of,
24:28so we'll come back to that.
24:30So pick up where you were talking about you traveling around with him.
24:36He rented the New York, a former Iranian house.
24:46That time, I believe you said that he was basically your life, like you were with him pretty regularly.
24:55So I never was with him regularly.
24:57That is one of those misnames.
24:59I mean, at the beginning, I did see more of him, but I worked in his office,
25:02so I would go to the office and I would see him, and I would count in my head when I would see him,
25:07I would count that that would be a day that I would see him.
25:11But I never, ever stayed with him.
25:14I believe, certainly until 93 or 94, what I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend,
25:24who was Eva Anderson then.
25:27He became Eva Jubilee.
25:29They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years.
25:35I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years.
25:39And I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together,
25:44and Epsiom himself had told me that they were not together, but I don't think that was true.
25:50So they were still together up until, I think, 94 when, at some point,
25:57in that period when Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married.
26:01I think in 94, I don't remember when they got married.
26:04But her, she was his best friend and his everything.
26:12He told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her.
26:17And I know that she was family for him, for his whole life.
26:21And I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not,
26:26when he came back from Paris and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane.
26:33Now, I think that either I read it in the discovery that I received or I saw it somewhere.
26:40But even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication
26:44where she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back, one or the other.
26:48I don't know which one is the correct version of that.
26:51So they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the time.
26:56In fact, he saw her.
27:00And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women.
27:06And I know that now because I can see it from the flight logs.
27:12And I know it now because I can see from the emails.
27:17So you know from the case that what happened.
27:20Yes, I didn't know that.
27:22At contemporaneity, I absolutely did not know.
27:24So OK, so just we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about,
27:28but just to kind of close out big picture your relationship.
27:32So we're now in the late 90s.
27:36Continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can about your relationship with him.
27:42So after. So my responsibilities increased with each acquisition and each new project.
27:53So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico.
28:07And so what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in 1994.
28:13So he had tasked me.
28:15One of the things that we did was visit.
28:18In my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states to go look at real estate.
28:24And so I know we went to Montana.
28:26I know we went to Utah.
28:28And it was to go look at real estate.
28:31It was fun, to be honest.
28:33And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico.
28:36And he just loved New Mexico.
28:39And then I don't remember how the ranch happened.
28:42I don't remember that now it's lost.
28:44And then he ended up buying the ranch.
28:47And then I had to deal with that.
28:58Dealing with that was extensive.
29:00I mean, the way that I thought of myself or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role as a general manager,
29:09because each property to me was like a hotel.
29:12So the ranch was very challenging because not only that, but it had BLM land.
29:18So to maintain your BLM, you had to have cattle.
29:25And so the first thing, horses.
29:29If you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity.
29:33So I don't think you should have a ranch.
29:35You're not going to have the things that make it special.
29:38So were you paid by him along the way during this time?
29:45I became salaried at some point.
29:49My memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with.
29:56And then with each, as it became more obvious, because I kept thinking I was going to have a home being in it.
30:04And financially, you were not relying on him.
30:10The $25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live?
30:18Or did you have your own money?
30:21And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about keeping it between the late 90s, maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s.
30:30I just want to hit something on the head right now.
30:32There's a tremendous amount of recording that said that I had a trust fund.
30:39I have never had a trust fund.
30:41So how did you live?
30:42Did you live with, I mean, $25,000 is not enough to live on?
30:46So I had, during this period of time, a secret.
30:50The Sirius Ford Squad had come to see me in relation to my father's passing.
30:55And to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans.
31:06I've told the story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat hypocritical, but I'll tell you what my memory is.
31:12I received a letter from them that said, you can't go about my business.
31:16And my memory may be hypocritical.
31:19There was a PS that said, I used to know what it's custom.
31:23I was never involved in any of his business, whatever.
31:28Were you, so, but you're, you know, obviously your father and your family had a lot of businesses.
31:37Is it because the money, whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family members?
31:46No, there was no money.
31:48So my father was never attached to me.
31:54He was born a peasant, a real one.
31:58Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes.
32:02Some clothes, but not, you know, sorry, I don't mean to say, nothing.
32:08And he never, he was never into that.
32:12I mean, there were things that he had his extravagances.
32:15He loved his boat and his plane.
32:17So obviously you need money for that, but there was no nothing else.
32:20And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time ever.
32:27So, so when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the nineties, you're, you're not, you're, you're very different financially.
32:37You're very different financially position than he is, meaning he's giving you money.
32:42He's paying for your, when you fly, he has to pay for your flights.
32:50So you, you, I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager, you helped with the New Mexico ranch.
32:56So did, did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long?
33:04So I continued in 2000, by 1999, our relationship had founded.
33:20We were never sleeping together again.
33:21So we stopped having sexual relations in 1999.
33:31Didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometimes or whatever.
33:35He had another girlfriend.
33:40I definitively knew that it was over after 9-11 actually.
33:47Because we were both from New York.
33:52And I don't know, were you in New York?
34:00And it was a scary time if you were in New York.
34:05Nobody knew what was going on.
34:07And he was in 71st Street and I was in 65th Street, my house.
34:14And he wouldn't see me, at all.
34:21I saw his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in the hospital at Lennox Hill,
34:25started looking after her.
34:28And then I knew, as anyone did at that time,
34:31if you're not going to be there for someone you've known for 11 years,
34:34you're never going to be there.
34:35So to me, that was the line he said.
34:38And he had another English girlfriend, actually, from 2000.
34:47Were you, though, still on his, are you still being paid by him at this point?
34:55So at that point, when you say you realized, kind of...
35:00Well, I mean, I'm talking about the, I had had, there was a,
35:05I wanted to get married and have children.
35:08And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that,
35:16I don't know about the, certainly by the late 90s,
35:19I knew the marriage part was never going to happen.
35:21I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98, maybe.
35:26But then I realized it wasn't that.
35:27But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had really wanted.
35:34And I realized that.
35:37Okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?
35:48So we stopped having physicality.
35:51I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends.
35:53I certainly did stay sometimes in his room.
35:55I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex.
36:03And I started dating.
36:07And I met someone that I found very much in love with in 2003.
36:14His name was Ted Waite.
36:18Ted Waite, who you may know as the founder of Gable, the computers.
36:24And we had an amazing relationship that ended in, went on until 2010, I think.
36:35And I was with Ted from that time.
36:38Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
36:43I suppose you could say so.
36:47I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't.
36:53I was with President Clinton.
36:58President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein's friend.
37:01And Epstein had flown here.
37:05And I was at dinner and Ted came to the door.
37:08So I guess indirectly through Mr. Epstein, because it was his plane.
37:12But I'd have been there anyway without him.
37:14Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?
37:24So when you say the dinner was where?
37:31And so you had flown over with...
37:34So who was on the plane for that trip?
37:36I don't mean everybody.
37:37So Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
37:40You were on the plane?
37:45You only know what you remember.
37:47Was President Clinton on the plane?
37:50He would have had his guy, Doug Vance.
38:00And so how did you meet?
38:05So why did he say that's when you met him and that you met him through Clinton?
38:09Well, I don't think Ted would have been there had it not been...
38:13President Clinton dinner and Ted came with President Clinton not to go with Mr. Epstein.
38:19Does that make sense?
38:21That's why I say that.
38:23So in the time that you're dating, that you're with him to 2009, are you still working for
38:30Mr. Epstein during that time?
38:33It would be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, Mr. Epstein tried very hard to
38:38keep me to working for him because I mean this is a complex operation.
38:45I'm not talking about anything untoward.
38:48Just the sheer size of the projects.
38:50I'm talking about construction projects, the houses, the star.
38:54It's a really significant job.
38:58And I ran all the properties, the staff in the properties, the management of the properties
39:05and all the construction.
39:08And we're talking tens of millions of dollars.
39:11I can't remember what the budget was for construction on any given year.
39:18But these are very significant projects.
39:21And so that was what I did and I managed the budgets.
39:26Well, I didn't manage the budgets.
39:27I oversaw the budgets.
39:28So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an air conditioning plant, I saw
39:36an air conditioning plant and I could call the island manager, did you receive the carrier,
39:46When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
39:49I want to say 1996 or 1997, something like that.
39:54Okay, so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr.
39:59Epstein and his wealth.
40:01But just so we can finish this.
40:04So in 2009, you ended your relationship with Ted?
40:10I can't remember if it was 2010.
40:12So in that time period, what happens next as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
40:16I don't have one with him.
40:18You don't have one with him, like, you don't see him or it's just a different relationship?
40:24I did see, I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times.
40:29I certainly went to his house once, for sure.
40:33But I was not seeing him.
40:36The only time that I was in touch with him was when things happened.
40:44Like things that were in the crest that affected me, or when the CVRA case was filed and there was all that rubbish that went out.
40:52Because I needed information.
40:54Because I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help.
41:02I don't want to make this sound right.
41:05I don't mean his help.
41:07I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to defend myself.
41:14So when does that relationship change?
41:17So you're working, you talked about when the physical relationship stopped.
41:22And then you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and serving as a general manager.
41:29You then start your own relationship with another individual, with Ted, from 2003 until 2009 or 2010.
41:36At what point in that whole period is there more of a break where you're no longer acting as his general manager?
41:42I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted.
41:50I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epps at that point as sort of family, if you will.
41:58Like someone I could rely on.
42:00And I should have had more confidence in myself, I can see that now.
42:06But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would...
42:12And I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable saying that.
42:18And he always said I was like family.
42:21So he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me.
42:27He was generous with me.
42:29He never used the pain, which was very generous.
42:33He would check in with my mum.
42:41Things that were meaningful to me in that time.
42:45And then, it may still not have worked, but his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash.
42:56And she had become sort of like a surrogate mother to me, sort of because my mum wasn't there.
43:05I could look after her the way that I would have liked to look after my own mum.
43:19So I became very close to his mother.
43:22And she had been in a car crash in 2004, I believe.
43:30It may have been five, I don't recall exactly.
43:34Her health took a serious decline.
43:38And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her.
43:44By looking after her, that meant organising her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
43:58She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach, outside of West Palm.
44:08I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that.
44:12I just don't remember what it's called.
44:15But it was an old age, it was a retirement home, if you will.
44:18Todd, I don't know, we've been going for maybe about an hour now.
44:21Do you think this is a good time?
44:23Yeah, so we'll take a break.
44:26Alright, so we're going to take a break.
0:02I were continuing the proper interview with Ms. Maxwell.
0:07The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th.
0:13So just picking up where we just stopped.
0:17So you have basically a break, well not a break, that's the wrong word, but your relationship
0:24with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other changes in 2003-04?
0:30Yeah, I mean over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted, the more
0:35distance I have with him.
0:37And then when the arrest, well let's go back, whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested
0:47So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations, that's
0:53what you're talking about?
0:57I had, I was not in, well.
1:02Well were you a part of that investigation?
1:05Did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?
1:09Did you, like, the feds never talked to you, the FBI never talked to you?
1:12I never even received a phone call.
1:14Did you, so you didn't receive a subpoena?
1:17Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
1:21So as far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank
1:28records or subpoena anything from your financial life during that time, during that time?
1:35Not as far as I'm aware.
1:36Now if they did, I don't know it and I have no idea about that, to be honest, but I'm
1:40not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know.
1:45So how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epson was arrested or did you know that something
1:50was happening before then?
1:53The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in
2:05It was like a rolling situation.
2:06But by that time, are you doing, are you, like, he tells you because he wants your help
2:11or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as
2:17I was, I was still around.
2:27If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then.
2:32I mean, it was, I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long
2:42term friend, family, you know, like, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.
2:48So, so he says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house?
2:52He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use because I had a lot of
2:57contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people.
3:05He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him.
3:13So, anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure because it's been a long
3:23time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeph at that time.
3:30And I don't know why.
3:32That's all lost to time.
3:34But anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now.
3:40I can't remember the timing of all of that either.
3:44But I ended up in Palm Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever
3:50he was doing because they had laid it all out over the house and various things and
3:53I think he'd asked for my opinion.
3:55That's my memory of this.
3:58It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or
4:03There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
4:07Maybe that's not true either.
4:10There's a, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there.
4:13I don't know if that's part of that time or not or Ted went there and left me.
4:22That's not how that went either.
4:24Anyway, at some point in that time I saw all the swatches at some point in 2005 I think
4:30that was and then I believe, I don't remember, I think I got a phone call actually.
4:37I wasn't in Palm Beach.
4:38I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house or something.
4:45Would you have gotten a phone call from him or you think you were just told by somebody
4:48that knew that it happened or don't you remember?
4:54I think it would have been the housemate.
4:55So when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein
5:01is being investigated for?
5:03I didn't even know what, I didn't even understand.
5:06I didn't have a context for that.
5:08It was like, I didn't even know, I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I'm
5:15not sure even what I thought.
5:16I was like, that's weird.
5:17After you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?
5:22I asked him what was going on.
5:23And he said, not to worry, nothing, nothing, take care, don't worry about it, I don't
5:31And then it went quiet.
5:32I didn't, he didn't say, he didn't share, I wasn't part of it at all.
5:37I was off with Ted and I really just...
5:40Did he tell you, well, why don't we come back to more specifics around that time period
5:46I want to just finish this opening part.
5:49So that case goes on, ultimately it ends.
5:58What was your relationship like with him during that case?
6:01When he goes, you know, he asked, he told me, he said, listen, I'm going to jail.
6:07And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this
6:15and that, and just stay put and I'll continue to pay you in case there's any emergency.
6:21I don't trust anyone.
6:22And I was like, okay.
6:25Will Newsy continue to pay you?
6:28He'd never stop paying me.
6:29He'd never stop paying you.
6:30So even when your relationship changes, you're getting, does the amount increase from the
6:3325,000 or so a year from the beginning?
6:36Like, well, how much are you getting paid yearly?
6:38I think it ended at the time, well, we had different payment structures and I'm happy
6:42to explain how that works.
6:43But I think salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.
6:49Quarter of a million, 250,000.
6:53When was that that it stopped?
6:58So when did he come out of jail?
7:00Whenever he came out of jail.
7:03So and over the years, it increased from what you said was you thought about 25,000 to 250,000.
7:10So that's between like early 90s until 2009 or 10, whatever he stopped, is that right?
7:17And how were you paid?
7:19W-2 from what company?
7:23He just moved me around, I went to this company there, I didn't care.
7:31And I didn't care and I didn't understand any rhyme or reason, it doesn't matter, whatever.
7:37So when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything?
7:45And then we'll come back to that.
7:46We'll not manage everything, no.
7:47I mean, there are other people at this point.
7:49My specific role then was very, very diminished.
7:52I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that were storming the island
8:00and wherever else there was going to be Paris at this point because I speak French, I'm
8:04And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him.
8:08And the French component part of that aspect was really vital and so you'd have had to
8:15find someone who was, well actually and the Spanish, trilingual, you would have had to
8:19find someone who was trilingual and that he trusted to not steal from him.
8:31So when he gets out of jail between that time, 2009 or 10 and 2019, what's your relationship
8:40like with Mr. Epstein?
8:45I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything to, I didn't want the drama.
8:51I didn't want to be associated with...
8:56So do you recall, when you say almost non-existent, does that mean some phone calls, some visits,
9:04I don't think there were any trips, I don't think so.
9:12Where were you living during that time period or was it between 2009, 10 and 2019?
9:19I was back in New York.
9:24So you had no, so you had phone calls with him on occasion?
9:29Yes, well I certainly did whenever there was any legal drama or any serious press intention
9:35I always called him to try and find out what was going on and I did email him at that time
9:40for those types of details, I was like what do I do, I mean I was like...
9:47And then when he's charged in New York, federally, how did you learn about that case?
9:54And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?
10:00No, I wasn't in an indictment.
10:03No, I know that, but even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials?
10:08I had never, up until when my lawyers said that, I don't even know, I had no knowledge
10:19of them being interested in me, honestly, I don't, I want to say until he had died.
10:26Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with Southern District of New York at some point
10:31after his arrest, I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right?
10:35But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest, I know my lawyers went
10:40to see them once, I believe, and...
10:44Went to see him, meaning Mr. Upstein?
10:45No, them, the Southern District of New York, sorry.
10:49And that they had been in regular, in touch with him, and...
10:54But now you're talking about after Mr. Upstein died, or are you talking about before he died?
11:01If you can remember.
11:03It's easily verifiable.
11:05My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested, I don't know if
11:13anything happened until after his death, then after that.
11:17I don't think they saw them, met with them, Southern District of New York I'm talking
11:20about now, until after he died.
11:23I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them, and that my lawyers believed
11:29that they had been told that there was no interest in me.
11:33And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested.
11:38Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised, I certainly was.
11:41Okay, so that was a long description of what was a very long life, and that was very helpful.
11:52So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas, and that was a
11:59very helpful kind of foundation for us.
12:02The first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on about Mr. Upstein's
12:13Do you know how he, when you first meet him at some point, you say, I got this place for
12:18you to rent, you can't afford it, and he laughs at you and says, yes I can.
12:23What did you learn about his wealth and how he accumulated his money?
12:28I can tell you what he told me.
12:31So I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this
12:39He was working at Dalton, he was a math teacher, and he met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure,
12:51he met someone from Bayer who hired him because he was very good at math.
12:55And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of, he came up with some new type
13:18of trading system, not a system so much, but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle that I'm
13:25just escaping right now.
13:26And this is why he was working at Bayer's?
13:31And was this before you met him?
13:35So this is what he told you?
13:36And what you learned?
13:37Yes, this is what he told me himself.
13:39And so, and then eventually he starts a financial firm?
13:44Do you know that to be true or no?
13:46J. Epstein and Company, you ever heard of that at all?
13:49So, hang on a minute.
13:50So I, this I did not know, but this I had subsequently learned is that he had some
13:57problem or some issue at Bastan's and there was some disagreement.
14:04He wasn't fired because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy,
14:09at least by the time I met him, but they were working with him and he ran, he had money at
14:18Bastan's and his money, his client's money, I'll come to that, but he started, he told
14:25me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money.
14:35So if somebody, I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't think
14:46of anything, I've been with, not very, I'll give it to you.
14:49So let's say you have El Chapo, I don't know where he comes from, but anyway, we've got El
14:54Chapo and El Chapo's laundering money or he's working with the Sinaloa cartel and he steals
15:01money from the Sinaloa cartel and he moves it to wherever.
15:04So he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa, goes to Epstein, this didn't happen, I'm just
15:11coming up with something in my head and the Sinaloa says to Epstein, can you track down my
15:17billion dollars that the other cartels stole from me in Epstein, we'll go and find the
15:22billion dollars and we'll take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee and give
15:29back the remainder, that would be on a percentage basis.
15:31No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate was just a hypothetical.
15:35Please, that was completely hypothetical.
15:36That would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other.
15:42Practically speaking, he was more of a businessman, correct?
15:47So here's how I think it started, is that he had a girlfriend, you're always to the
15:51girls, I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me, maybe not whilst we're
15:58here, I don't know, maybe, there's a woman, there was a woman, and she was the daughter
16:04of a billionaire, for instance, and that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had
16:11some money stolen and for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey and Jeffrey, I think
16:17that's how that business started, that's what I remember.
16:21And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him?
16:25No, something he told me before I met him.
16:27And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid 90s,
16:32what is he doing to make money that you see?
16:36Does he have clients?
16:37Does he have rich clients?
16:38Does he have famous clients?
16:39And if he does have clients, what services is he providing them?
16:44He does have, well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks
16:48about, which is Les Wexner, and that was a very important client to him.
16:52And he, I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine, what I imagine,
16:59what I know to be true about what he managed for us.
17:03And there's some bits that I'll be improvising.
17:07I want to just make you understand I was not part of Epstein's business world,
17:12except tangentially and obviously, so what I'm talking about is either what I observed
17:19or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn't responsible for
17:24any of the client's money or anything like that.
17:27Yeah, I understand, go ahead.
17:29So with Les, for instance, it was really all encompassing.
17:37It could go from the structure of the business.
17:46So he structured or restructured the limited.
17:54And I'll come back to that because I also traveled with him and Les,
17:57and I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there.
18:00So I could observe and I could hear some of this.
18:03And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated,
18:07I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening.
18:12All right, so then he restructured the business.
18:15He restructured his entire personal finances and would also
18:26handle all of the investment strategy.
18:28I don't know if this is 100%.
18:30Mr. Wexner, you're saying?
18:32This is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
18:35So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest.
18:40So you would, you know, in people's investment portfolios, you'd have,
18:45you know, some T-boards and this and that,
18:48but Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.
18:53So just staying with Mr. Wexner, from what you heard or saw,
19:00is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages?
19:05So there would be a deal and he would be paid?
19:07Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
19:09Was he a business partner?
19:11How did you understand him to be paid?
19:13I think it was more a la carte.
19:14So let's say, this is a conversation actually Epstein told me.
19:20It illustrated for me.
19:21Said if I saved someone five billion dollars,
19:26he would take a flat percentage of that five billion.
19:28He wouldn't have five billion back.
19:30What do you say you think that?
19:32Is that because you heard him talking about that?
19:35It would be a combination of both.
19:36I certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that.
19:46Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?
19:49So we're talking about 71st Street.
19:51So I don't know what the business deal was.
19:54Because again, I'm not part of his business thing.
19:57But I think what happened would be that,
20:00let's say, wex owed him in theoretically for his services,
20:07a hundred million or whatever it was.
20:10He could have traded that against the property.
20:12But do you know that that happened?
20:15Do you remember whether there was conversations about that?
20:17Or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?
20:24I'm not trying to be.
20:25I just don't remember if that's something I know
20:27or if that's something that I remember
20:28or if it's something that I subsequently know.
20:31I believe that to be what happened.
20:32But I don't want to tell you that I have.
20:34Does that make sense?
20:35Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein,
20:38are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had?
20:42I think I wasn't there.
20:47And I don't know how it happened.
20:49I only know what Les has said in the press.
20:52So you only know about their, you know,
20:55their falling out or whatever you want to call it
20:57from what you've kind of read,
20:59not from any firsthand knowledge.
21:01You weren't part of that.
21:06Do you know somebody named Stephen Hoffenberg?
21:13Only from the press.
21:15And so you don't know anything about
21:17whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein?
21:21Never spoke about him.
21:23I only learned about that, whatever that is.
21:27I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press.
21:32How about Leon Black?
21:34Oh, I did meet Leon.
21:36When do you remember, and again,
21:38I know we're talking about a very long time ago,
21:39but do you remember approximately when you met him?
21:48I could have met Leon, not really.
21:50So I might have met him, nothing to do because
21:54Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine.
21:58I would have met him when I say socially I might have met him.
22:02How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I'm not sure.
22:07But not through you, as far as you're concerned?
22:09Not through me, as far as I know, no.
22:12I'm sure that's not through me.
22:14Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing
22:17for Mr. Black over the years?
22:20Same as what he did for Wexner.
22:23So we just talked about two individuals,
22:28and again, I know we're talking about maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.
22:35How many clients like that do Mr. Epstein have?
22:38Well, why don't I just give you the names that I remember?
22:41Why won't I just give you the names?
22:43Do you want the names?
22:47Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson & Johnson.
22:50When did, as far as you know, when did the relationship
22:53between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start?
23:03So during the time period?
23:04Yes, we're talking 90s.
23:05We're talking when I was there, when I was around.
23:07How did their relationship start?
23:11I don't know how he became that friendly boy.
23:13He ended up managing her money.
23:17I really had a separate life.
23:19We really had separate lives.
23:22Except where they said.
23:27And what's your understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson?
23:31Same as what he did for Wexner.
23:32And when I, and you have to understand, it went down to in tiny detail.
23:37So I remember, this I remember, this is an actual memory,
23:40that he would make the contracts for the maids,
23:43for the people who worked in their homes.
23:46So he would assist his clients at times with,
23:50you're saying, with even small things like contractual relationships?
23:53He said no detail was too small.
23:55Because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life
24:00was something that he felt he was, if they wanted, would be responsible for.
24:05To make sure that the contracts, so that if you had to fire someone,
24:08it wouldn't come back and sue you, or that sort of thing.
24:13Okay, so Mr. Black, Mr. Werner, Ms. Johnson, who else?
24:30There's someone named Jess Staley?
24:32Yeah, I do know Jess.
24:33He was at Morgan Stanley and at Barclays.
24:37What, do you know whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
24:42Well, not a, not a physical one.
24:45Well, I didn't suggest it.
24:47No, I'm saying a relationship in the broadest sense of the word.
24:50Business, personal, both?
24:53Okay, and do you know when they met?
25:03I, no, I don't know when they met.
25:06But you can time it.
25:08Oh, I don't know that you can.
25:10So, but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know?
25:13I think they were friends and I think that they were business partners.
25:16Well, partners, too strong a word, but they worked, they did business together.
25:20So, did you, again, I want to stay focused on the time
25:24when you were the most involved in his life.
25:26So, the early 90s through early 2000s?
25:29Beginning of the 2000s, yes.
25:31Did, did you, so we talked about four people.
25:38Oh, yes, there were more.
25:39There was a lady whose name I just can't, can I get my book?
25:43Maybe I wrote them down.
26:06Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
26:09What book are you, what is that?
26:11I'd write some notes for the meeting.
26:14I just was curious what we're looking at.
26:17Not the birthday book.
26:18It's not the birthday book.
26:19No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure.
26:21I wrote down something because I tried to make,
26:24I just want you to understand my memory is not as good as it was
26:28because when I was in Brooklyn I was in the shoe for almost two years
26:34and I was on suicide watch for almost two years
26:37which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time
26:41and it's, it really did affect my ability to.
26:47So, you've taken some notes.
26:49I just made some names in advance of it.
26:52And you're happy to look at them.
26:55Okay, well, funny you say.
26:57First two names, one is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black.
27:03Glenn Dubin was a client.
27:05Eva Dubin's husband.
27:08What was their, I mean, if you can, do you know when,
27:12about when that relationship started?
27:14Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married for sure.
27:17So, you're going to start, you're going to date that from wherever that was.
27:22And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital
27:28and the financing or selling of Highbridge to JP Morgan.
27:40Okay, you're only looking for clients.
27:41So, all right, there's a woman, well, he, there's a woman in Ohio.
27:53I just can't think of her name, but it will, I tried to remember it yesterday and I can't.
27:58So, this is a good thing, like, you know, as you think of things, write it down.
28:02And if they have any other names, they'll ask you, but don't force it out.
28:06So, you'll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon, overnight,
28:10because we'll probably meet tomorrow.
28:11But you can find them.
28:12I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
28:15So, there's a woman in Ohio who's wealthy.
28:17Well, you can identify her yourself because she had the largest Klein painting.
28:24So, you can find her because it'll be in the museum.
28:27So, he, that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients.
28:30She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well.
28:36Well, I think that there was people, other people that he would, like, assist.
28:43I know that he helped Lynn Forrester who became Linda Rothschild.
28:47She'll deny it, and she has.
28:51And when you say help, the same help in business or what will help?
28:57I have no idea what he did for her.
28:58I know he helped her financially.
29:00Her husband was the controller of New York.
29:03So, but I don't, again, I'm not inside his business, but he would have, his, his,
29:09this notion that he blackmailed men, we don't really have to go there,
29:13that he wasn't a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or whatever.
29:17I don't believe that to be true.
29:20Why do you, so you say you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you think that.
29:24I know you've been talking about it, that he was very, he was very conscientious.
29:28He was very good at math.
29:29He was, paid a lot of attention to his clients, but, but yes, you're right.
29:33There's allegations of blackmail or also that, that there was some level of fraud
29:38involved in what he did and you don't believe it.
29:40Why do you, why do you say that?
29:41Well, I, let me rephrase that.
29:44If there was fraud, I never saw it.
29:47What I saw or what I felt when I, his, I ran that office.
29:51I mean, ran, I didn't, I was responsible for the staff.
29:54People worked, there were lawyers, there were accountants.
29:59I never heard him, I never, I never felt anything.
30:09Did you ever see him blackmail a client?
30:13Did you ever see him blackmail a friend or an acquaintance?
30:18Well, so I think when folks talk about blackmail and we can talk about, sorry about that.
30:24We can talk about that now.
30:27There are a lot of allegations about him, which we should talk about and we can do that now,
30:33and the fact that he abused young women.
30:37Full stop, okay, which means the way that I'm defining abuse,
30:42as has been widely reported, is that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited
30:50to come to his house and give him massages and as part of that, he would sexually abuse them.
31:00So I want to talk about that, but as it relates to blackmail,
31:05the question is whether you're aware of any time that any of the individuals we're talking about
31:11and we'll talk about others, receive massages from women who are under 18
31:19or may have been under 18 and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between
31:26any of these people and those masseuses, which would have allowed them, Mr. Epstein, potentially
31:33to blackmail them and say, you have to continue to work with me or you have to give me money
31:37or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this.
31:43Right, I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began.
31:51So even, let's assume that that premise is correct, that he was doing that and he was
31:59going to tell everybody, going to say, oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with an
32:04underage girl. If you don't have video or photographic evidence, I'm not sure that even
32:13the FBI would take that, well, maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take that seriously.
32:19So you have to have something to say, hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you doing
32:25terrible things and you need to. So I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses.
32:35I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type
32:46of inappropriate, let's say video surveillance. And I'll define that for you.
32:53Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
33:00In a room where there were massages given.
33:03Inappropriate. I would say I would define appropriate
33:09surveillance to be the front door of a house or potentially, as in 71st Street, the
33:18physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque.
33:23So I just want to come back to, I know, I'm just hopefully saying the obvious,
33:28but when you say the houses, you're talking about his New York brownstone. You're talking
33:36about the island in the Caribbean. You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach.
33:44And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico. Anywhere else?
33:49And the plane, I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane that was about my door.
33:55I didn't have any electrician on the plane.
33:57So unequivocally, from what you know, and you only know what you know.
34:01I only know what I know.
34:02But from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera
34:09that takes pictures inside any of his residences.
34:16So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of
34:20exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of
34:26inside any of the locations?
34:29Never. With one exception.
34:30Okay. What's the exception?
34:32The exception is Palm Beach.
34:34And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen.
34:39He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, his briefcase.
34:44And he called in the Palm Beach police.
34:51And they, the Palm Beach police installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
34:59Where was that? Do you remember?
35:00At his desk in, so the house on the ground floor was, he had a desk sort of in a corner.
35:12There was that camera.
35:12I think there was another camera.
35:14I think there were two or maybe three cameras.
35:16I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had,
35:19maybe he had another office in the cabana.
35:22There may have been a camera there.
35:25I'm not looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about
35:282003. I think I can date it for you precisely, actually.
35:322003, I'm pretty firm on that date.
35:35And I can be firm because John Alessi, the butler, was fired in the end of 2002 and he was the thief.
35:46So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch
35:51somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras
35:57at the island? No? Sorry, just so we record it.
36:04Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
36:06That's okay. You were nodding your head no.
36:10No cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider myself, I would consider normal.
36:17So the garage gate, something like that, a front door.
36:21Outside, like security cameras?
36:23Security cameras. And there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did the plant,
36:29the physical plant, because it was a commercial building.
36:32So you had the whole, that's a real thing, that's a commercial building.
36:35And there were cameras, there was one camera on the front door internal,
36:39from the internal that did the front door, as I recall.
36:42But there were no other cameras inside the house.
36:46Did you ever, how about photographs?
36:49Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him take pictures of anybody
36:57in compromising positions with women or with anybody?
37:03Did you ever hear, when you were present for conversations Mr. Epstein was having
37:09or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them
37:18because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
37:23There have been, and you, in the discovery you got in the New York case, okay?
37:33And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein,
37:41have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists like what we're talking about
37:48or photos were taken that were compromising?
37:52So in both of those I received no pictures or anything from the civil case.
37:58But in the criminal case I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that.
38:06I also saw binders, photographs of women,
38:13in determined, I never saw anything, I don't know how old some of these women were.
38:18There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach that photographs of them.
38:26In those photographs, were the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you've
38:34talked about, were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims?
38:39There was no men with these pictures.
38:43There was no client of his with those pictures.
38:46They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots.
38:58Pictures that Epstein had with the girls but not Epstein with the clients and the girls?
39:03Did you, I understand you said you got those in the discovery.
39:12Did you know those pictures like that existed?
39:15So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein
39:23had on his computer or wherever he had them.
39:26Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?
39:30Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house.
39:33Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever.
39:38Some pictures I'd simply never seen before.
39:45I'd never seen some of them.
39:47Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't.
39:51So you're right and I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful
39:59in a compromising position would be good blackmail.
40:05Putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those,
40:12did you observe over the years the folks we're talking about or others,
40:18which we can talk about, getting massages from young women?
40:21Um, so I just, I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been
40:29missed in this whole Michigan.
40:34That's a technical term.
40:36I'll look it up later.
40:39I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it some, so this is the benefit of,
40:48some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think.
40:51So just for clarity's sake.
40:55I think, I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein
40:59did a lot of, not all, but some of what he's accused of and I'm not here to defend him in
41:05any respect whatsoever.
41:06I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or
41:12for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do.
41:19However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression.
41:32And I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became.
41:38I believe he became that man over a period of time.
41:41Now we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know.
41:46But I think somebody who has an interest, however you define it, in underage people
41:58is obviously someone who is unwell.
42:01But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of.
42:07I think this is something that you develop or you progress to, I think.
42:16Glenn, before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get
42:21Okay, the top line question is...
42:23Did you ever see any of these people with underage...
42:27So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time
42:32when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there.
42:39That description, I think that this, what you're talking about is a later version.
42:45No, I understand that.
42:46And I do want to talk, I'm not...
42:47So it's just, I think you need to separate the periods of time because one of the things
42:53that was definitely missing in my trial and definitely missing from the narrative is this
42:58notion that everything happened and he was always a bit...
43:01No, I don't believe that to be true.
43:03So that's fine and I do want to talk about that.
43:06I'm not pushing that away.
43:09I'm just putting it aside for a moment.
43:12What Mr. Epstein did and frankly what you did or are accused of doing is one thing
43:19that we'll talk about, but right now what I want to understand is whether one of the
43:26ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or took care of them or some would say blackmailed
43:33them was by encouraging them to interact with women underage or not.
43:41So I think in the 90s he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their
43:49So he would have a masseuse, right, and he did, male and female by the way in the 90s,
43:54that's never been discussed, both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women.
43:58And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the
44:03flight record so you could see that there really were men that were also there.
44:07He would say would you like to do yoga with Tito or would you like a massage with this one,
44:12but they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses.
44:18So I think there's a distinction.
44:20And I want to talk about actual individuals here, and I understand the distinction between
44:24somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage, but even with somebody who's an
44:29adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or
44:38I certainly witnessed him.
44:40So if you were staying with him and you had a massage, he would often travel with a masseuse.
44:46He would say hey, would you like a massage?
44:47And he did do that, yes.
44:49But would you or him or anybody else follow up with a masseuse afterwards to find out if
44:55there was any inappropriate sexual concept?
44:59And coming back to the blackmail issue, there's nothing wrong with getting a massage.
45:02Of course not, especially if somebody's obviously an adult and a masseuse.
45:08I'm not quibbling with that.
45:10My question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry,
45:15Mr. Epstein was successful was through this idea of blackmail.
45:20Yes, young women is a crime, children is a crime, but even women over the age of 18,
45:28if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual
45:35contact with a masseuse, that's a separate issue, maybe slightly nuanced.
45:41But did you ever know him to do that?
45:44I never did, absolutely, myself.
45:46I never heard him ask someone.
45:50I never, no one in the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone,
45:54no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened
46:01I never saw, I never saw ever any of that.
46:05When you say no one ever reports to me, meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff.
46:11Or the clients themselves.
46:21So let's again, I want to stay and coming back now to what you were talking about a
46:26moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or getting worse.
46:31Just staying within the 90s, what role did you have or what did you observe?
46:38Which are two different issues, but both important with respect to recruiting masseuses
46:44to come to either I guess Palm Beach or to travel or eventually New Mexico.
46:51What role did you have in that?
46:52He asked me to find masseuses for him.
46:55He asked me if I could find him masseuses.
46:59Like as part of, like you said you were his general manager,
47:00so as part of all your duties that was one of them.
47:04So the first person I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called S***.
47:12She was, I don't know, mid-late 20s, professional masseuse.
47:18Was this something that happened early on in your relationship or,
47:21and again I know we're talking about the 90s,
47:23but are we talking about early 90s or is this later on?
47:26So in terms of massage I am a, I have a lot of injuries.
47:33I do a lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious accidents
47:41and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage.
47:49That to me is a very, it's medicinal for me.
47:56So Epstein, whatever his massage situation or whatever, he loved massage
48:03and if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur I introduced them.
48:08And he, because I got them and he asked me if I did and I said yes.
48:11And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have, well I can't remember,
48:1793, 92 early from the beginning.
48:23So then what happens over the next, you know, like there's been,
48:28there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess testimony as well,
48:31but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort
48:38that you were a part of and that he was a part of and others
48:41to try to find more and more masseuses.
48:43What, is that, is that true and what role did you have in that?
48:47Um, that is partially true.
48:51So it is true that I found masseuses and he became more insistent.
49:00He liked new all the time.
49:03So he would be bored with that masseuse and he would say find me a new masseuse.
49:08I am the entire opposite.
49:10If I find someone that I like, I stay with them.
49:12I'm like, I don't want new.
49:14He would drive for new.
49:17And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas,
49:22like legitimate spas.
49:24We're not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.
49:28So, um, and I, if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was,
49:34I liked, I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits.
49:37If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house
49:41and he would see if he liked them or not.
49:42But these were people who worked in spas.
49:45I never ever checked their age and I never checked their credentials.
49:48I never asked for a certificate.
49:51But just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under-
49:53I never crossed, I never.
49:55No, that was never my, that was never a drive.
49:58What, um, what did you know at the time about him, Mr. Epstein,
50:06requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to
50:13either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein
50:15or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that.
50:19And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period.
50:23So I appreciate that's a very broad question.
50:25So answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing
50:29but also what's been said about you.
50:31Okay, so I don't, the 90s, I don't think that I ever thought that never would cross my mind.
50:37Um, I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until, uh,
50:43his arrest and those papers came out.
50:45But I believe the, the, um, subject of the question that you're asking me,
50:52I believe started in the 2000s.
50:56Till, in the 2000 time period?
50:59Why do you, why do you think, like what in your mind makes you
51:02think that that's the time that it started?
51:04Um, I think because in, uh, December of 2001, he met **** and I think, uh, **** was, um,
51:18responsible for that in its entirety and the reason I believe that.
51:26So this, she, she was a, um, self-confessed, uh, having been, uh, sexually abused as a young girl
51:37and was trained, her words, I'm quoting now, not mine, um, in all the arts of whatever that is,
51:47a sex program by, uh, a man called Ron Appinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14,
51:58I believe, or 15, I don't know, and in her book describes him training her to be what every man
52:06wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else.
52:13I believe that then what happened was that he met her and she came as a masseuse to his house
52:21in December of 2001 is when I think it started.
52:27Now what their relationship was on what happened with them in that early period of time,
52:33I cannot say, what I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him.
52:42I believe, I know then what happened was that she, when she first started to see him,
52:49um, or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was, uh, engaged to be married
52:56and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiance. Um, she broke up after a few months,
53:04uh, with her fiance and took up with the local drug dealer. So let's say after
53:12four or five months of, in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say, we're now
53:19May, June of 2002 or so, 2002, whenever she hits the, whatever that is, that's 2000,
53:29I think it's 2000, I'm sorry, I think it's when she met him, December of 2000.
53:34So then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look.
53:40I'm not holding you to the exact date.
53:42No, I mean, I'm just trying to, I'm getting the, so then I think, um, so she,
53:46she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes
53:52druggy, druggy, like we know how druggy, I live with a lot in Tallahassee, they become
54:02even more unreliable than normal. And at some point she's now working somewhere else.
54:08He stops seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing
54:15her lasted five or six months and in that period of time she got arrested for theft
54:22and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now this I've pieced together because this piece
54:28I didn't know. She then called Epstein to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest
54:39and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess,
54:50this is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left,
54:56he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever, whatever she was doing. And she brought
55:05the first replacement for her that would have been one of the accusers in my case I think,
55:13would have been and that, and then everyone who came subsequent,
55:20simultaneously, if she wasn't the first, I don't know, everyone, every single person who came to
55:26his house came through and her boyfriend Tony and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how
55:34it started. So before her, Tony Figueroa, before her, so now going back into the 90s, you don't
55:45believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses? Underage. Or overage. I mean I think, well I'm
55:59using abuse in the broadest sense of word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea
56:05over the years. You always assumed the masseuses were overage, right? So when I'm talking about
56:10abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse comes in to give a massage and is told to take
56:15off their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if they don't keep their clothes, basically
56:19suggests that they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about
56:23what he did, for now I'm not distinguishing between adults or young or underage women for that.
56:29I'm going to think that that would have been a habit. Okay. I'm going to say that the massage
56:34game was a habit. What does that mean? That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start
56:43having relations with masseuses in 2002. Okay. I am sure he must have had relations with masseuses,
56:49who knows when. But you're saying as far as you, I use the word abuse, you're saying that as far as
56:55you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual, meaning the masseuse did those,
57:03did this willingly. I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse
57:10ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation,
57:18I don't think that if you are being raped as now he's like this prolific, I just
57:26can't imagine why you would return. It's not what you observed at the time.
57:29Not what I observed at the time. I want to, we're going to spend a little,
57:34we're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important. But just going
57:41back to kind of the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the
57:47blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients and you've mentioned
57:56President Clinton and then early on. Oh, I never said he was a client.
57:59I did not say he was a client. I'm saying you talk about his clients.
58:02And then put his clients off the side. And then you mentioned some other people.
58:05You mentioned President Clinton. You mentioned President Trump early on. Who were other
58:12famous slash politicians? Who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during
58:19that time period? So the early 90s. The 90s. Should we just?
58:23Yes. Okay. Congressman McMillan.
58:25Say it again. McMillan.
58:28Um, Henry Rizovsky, who was the provost of Harvard.
58:33Hang on, can I? Sure. You're looking at your notes.
58:38Um, Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson,
58:49I don't know if in the 90s, Tom Pritzker, Ace, Jimmy Kane, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were.
58:56What about the royal family? No, we didn't know them in the 90s.
59:00What about the, the, um, what about Prince Andrew?
59:03Didn't know him in the 90s. Um, Wendy.
59:06Oh well. Is that right?
59:09I wasn't there. I did not know.
59:14So I don't want you to worry about exact dates. You're not positive about that, but
59:19you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s.
59:23I can date it for you, I think. But I can't give you the-
59:27That's okay. I think.
59:27That's fine. Um, so with respect to just, and we'll take a break in a minute to get some
59:32food. Um, but just with respect to Mr. Um, with respect to the individuals you just talked about.
59:39So again, focus on the 90s. And so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might
59:43add some names later. So we're talking about the clients that he worked with, which you've
59:48mentioned several of, and I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them.
59:52And then the kind of what I called famous friends, but the prominent individuals that
59:58were in his life in the 90s. Um, did, did, does any stick out in your mind as having received
1:00:05massages? All of them?
1:00:07Henry Rizoski received a massage.
1:00:09And then why do you, why does that stick out in your memory?
1:00:12Because, um, I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st Street and he had received a massage, he told me.
1:00:20And do you know whether that, whether there was any, um, whether the masseuse was naked
1:00:24during that massage? I wouldn't have any idea.
1:00:26Do you know whether he... I doubt it, he was like in his 80s.
1:00:29I doubt it, he was like in his 80s. Okay, so, but do you know, notwithstanding
1:00:33his age... Oh, Minsky, how, Minsky.
1:00:35Say that again? Minsky was another person.
1:00:38Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
1:00:41I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did?
1:00:45Well, because I don't, so that's a good question.
1:00:50Uh, the time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times, I believe.
1:00:56Well, obviously they traveled.
1:00:59There was that, you know, they went on the plane 26 times or whatever.
1:01:02That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together
1:01:05and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane.
1:01:09So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton
1:01:12could have even received a massage and he didn't, because I was there.
1:01:16And you mentioned that early, in the very beginning of the conversation,
1:01:21you mentioned President Trump in the early 90s.
1:01:23What did you observe as far as President Trump
1:01:27and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
1:01:31Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump,
1:01:36relationship's a big word, but I just want to say that I met him,
1:01:39or I believe I may have, because of my father in the 90s.
1:01:42So my father liked him very much and he really liked his wife as well,
1:01:49because they were both Czechoslovakians.
1:01:50And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me.
1:01:57And I just want to say that I admire his extraordinary achievement
1:02:05in becoming the president now and I like him and I've always liked him.
1:02:10So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him.
1:02:13What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?
1:02:16I don't know how they met and I don't know how they became friends.
1:02:19I certainly saw them together and I remember
1:02:22the few times I observed them together that they were friendly.
1:02:26Was that in social settings or was that in private settings?
1:02:29I believe I only ever saw them in social settings.
1:02:32I don't recall any private settings.
1:02:34Did you ever, have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
1:02:39In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?
1:02:43I don't remember when the president purchased Mar-a-Lago.
1:02:47So from whenever it turned into a club, I went there and I loved going there.
1:02:56Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?
1:02:59Many times I went there, it was for an event, maybe once or twice.
1:03:03And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?
1:03:06I believe he did, but again, we really were, he didn't take me with him all the time.
1:03:18So he would go and, he never, I never, well he did from time to time,
1:03:26but he would go alone.
1:03:27I think he would maybe go himself to the spa.
1:03:30Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?
1:03:37Did you ever observe, you said that you,
1:03:41you were, I mean, have you seen the, there's photographs,
1:03:45public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together?
1:03:51And there's photographs of, I think you're in some of the photographs as well.
1:03:55Those all appear to be social settings.
1:03:59That's my memory, if there were social settings.
1:04:00I don't know, Epstein's, if he had, whatever the nature of the president's friendship,
1:04:09if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein,
1:04:12I was never witness.
1:04:13I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings.
1:04:16I don't, I don't think they were close friends or,
1:04:21I certainly never witnessed the president in any of,
1:04:26I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.
1:04:29I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting.
1:04:33I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way.
1:04:37The president was never inappropriate with anybody.
1:04:41In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.
1:04:45When's the last time you think you saw in person President Trump?
1:04:54It's been a long time, probably not, sometime in the beginning,
1:05:01mid-2000s maybe, and it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall.
1:05:07And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein, or anybody, say that President Trump had done anything
1:05:15inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?
1:05:18Absolutely never, in any context.
1:05:25Do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago Spa ended up giving massages to,
1:05:32private massages to Mr. Epstein?
1:05:36I'm not asking what you may have read,
1:05:37but at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that's true?
1:05:45Yes, but I don't remember that.
1:05:49So I don't recall that, but it's possible.
1:05:52Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from
1:05:56Mar-a-Lago Spa to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?
1:06:00I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I remember.
1:06:05I can't ever recollect doing that.
1:06:09Okay, so what I think we should do now, it's about 12.15, we'll take a break,
1:06:15and we will come back in a little bit.
0:00Good afternoon, we are continuing the recorded proper interview of Ms. Maxwell.
0:06The time is 1259 Thursday, July 24th.
0:10Okay, so just continuing with talking about Ms. Maxwell, still focused on the 90s time
0:24period with understanding that could spill over in the early 2000s, but still that part
0:28of your life with Mr. Epstein.
0:33There's been public reporting about conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little St. James.
0:45So can you talk about the frequency with which you went there and address some of those,
0:57some of the reporting namely around young masseuses or young women who would be present
1:03and what you observed relating to them and then I'll ask questions around that.
1:09So if I'm right, he purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with the owners
1:16and originally we went to the island as guests of the owners and then I guess at some point
1:23the owners told him they wanted to sell and he decided to purchase it.
1:30So the island was very rustic, I loved it, it caused completely different ideas and I
1:39would say there was none of what you were describing at that early period of time so
1:46the frequency was often not the island because he loved it, he really, really loved it and
1:56we would go all the time.
1:59Mostly all the early phase was based on improvements that could be made on the island, always going
2:08with new architects, new designers, new construction people.
2:14I'd say the first two years, almost every trip, not everyone, but almost every trip
2:21contained some, an individual who would be brought on board to have an opinion as to
2:28how to, I don't want to use the word improve the island because I don't think you could
2:35improve it but to, I can't think what the word would be, to develop it, sorry, that's
2:48the word, develop the island, that's the word, so there were trips, constant trips with that
2:56And I would say now, if we're moving to the late 90s, 96, 97,
0:00I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behaviour and a modification, if
0:09you will, where in the past, in the early 90s, I don't remember travelling so much
0:16with other people, whether it be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel
0:21with more, always a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always
0:26an instructor, there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever,
0:31there's always a... maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people in
0:45their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time. And
0:55he tasked me with finding local masseuses for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes,
1:07even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't and he wanted
1:11to have a massage locally, so I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas and in St.
1:19John. And if I met someone, a man or a woman actually, because it was difficult to find
1:25somebody in St. Thomas, it's not exactly... and I did find a couple of people who would come,
1:32so that's how they came. Because also it was a schlepp, so if you had somebody who came,
1:38it would be... you'd have to boat ride and several hours, it wasn't just... it's not late
1:47arriving with your massage tape and stuff, so there was that. So I did do that.
1:52So did, over the years, males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
1:57Yes. I did say, I don't think... at the beginning, definitely, and I would say towards sort of,
2:04again, late 90s, I don't remember any men. They were at the beginning, I think, and towards the
2:12late 90s, I kind of don't think of any men, I only think of women.
2:15Did you... you talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island,
2:23did you observe any sexual... I was going to say misconcon, but any sex at all whatsoever on the
2:34plane? Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could
2:46go and get a massage? Okay, so that's a good question. So there were two planes, so you had
2:52the... there was a Gulf Stream, and that's open plan, so anything... I mean, there was a sofa that
3:01turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that, and then... but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot,
3:10there was... his area could be closed off with a door, and behind that door there would be... there
3:16was a bedroom and an office, so if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it. But do you... so if
3:23you'd never... but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody
3:30with where the masseuse was not clothed on the plane? I can't say that. I might have, I definitely
3:37might have, either both in the Gulf Stream or in the... I'm sure I did, but it's not... I can't.
3:44That's fair. Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have, because he was so obsessed with someone
3:53rubbing his feet, or just... when you ask me about massages, I just want to be clear. I generally...
3:58what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as
4:04something different. You know, you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw
4:08that all the time, that I did, but that's separate from being on a massage table. Again, I know what
4:14we're talking about, a decade-long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day
4:21week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? In the 90s, when we're talking, he would get one
4:29every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say
4:38that there was maybe a reason that things altered, or morphed, or progressed, and it is maybe part
4:55of the reason also that I... he and I... our relationship, or however somebody wants to call it,
5:04altered. He started doing testosterone, and that altered his character. I believe that started in
5:19the late 90s. I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that
5:27on his medical records. You believe that he started taking testosterone in the 90s,
5:34and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it made him get more massages,
5:39or that was just one part of what changed about him? Well, he became more aggressive.
5:47I think that he may be... well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his
5:56desires, or something. Given what you've said the past couple hours about his progression or change,
6:11let's focus on that time period, so more towards the late 90s, 96, 97, 88, when you've said that he
6:19changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex, or otherwise some sort of sexual
6:32conduct with masseuses regularly? Flat out, no. I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would,
6:40but I think looking back now that... I did not, but I started to suspect that he was not
6:51faithful. It seems ludicrous. Look, if he's flying from Palm Beach to
7:04St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York,
7:11or even in Palm Beach, and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the age of
7:1618 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple massages on Sundays, you're interacting
7:26with the masseuses constantly. Or maybe that's not right. That's not right. Let me take back what I
7:31just said, ignore that part. But you understand that he's getting massages every day, sometimes
7:35multiple times a day. By the late 90s, it's all women. Presumably some of them are new,
7:43but they're also repeat masseuses. You had to know at that point that there was something
7:50going on beyond just he really needed to get massaged. Very fair question. There's two things.
7:56The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s,
8:01and she was with him all the time. I'm married as well. I'm square, and it never occurred...
8:17Well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having
8:24relations. That was the person he had the most massages, yoga, and that with at that time,
8:31in that 90s period. The second thing is that he told me he had difficulty having an erection,
8:49and I believed him. When you said he said that, do you mean he regularly told you that?
8:55Because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time, I asked him, was it me? And he told
9:07me it was him. Up until this moment in my life, I'm not stupid, I'm very bright. I've had an
9:20excellent education. I traveled all over the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never
9:29met or understood that somebody could be so... would lie to me about... It never occurred to me.
9:39I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so
9:46manipulative and devious with me. Plus, I just didn't have... I was happy not to have
9:57sex, because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to that.
10:07So fast forward just for a moment to the 2007-8-9 time period, and he's arrested and charged,
10:14and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact. At that point,
10:23did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point when you were reading
10:27about women who claimed that they had been abused, even underage? And at that point,
10:34did you think to yourself, well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it, or no?
10:37First of all, I only read what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any other thing,
10:42and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't believe it. Okay. Right. I mean, you didn't believe that the
10:51accusations were true at the time. And sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe
11:02that he was duped, and he didn't know that they were... whatever was in the papers at that time,
11:07whether they said that they were 17 or... I didn't... It didn't register, because along with all of
11:14those... Well, not in 2006, but later when the more salacious and other allegations came out,
11:22I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true.
11:29Let me ask you a question about the age of the masseuses over the years.
11:35Um, I think in my mind, there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a
11:46masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you knowing that Mr. Epstein,
11:54you know, sexually abused the underage person, or made her strip, or something like that. Meaning,
12:00um, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages,
12:07none of the women were under 18, or that you, you didn't focus on their age, but you,
12:16you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him.
12:25I think, I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence.
12:32Then go back and explain, so that I frame your understanding of what I'm saying.
12:39My understanding is that in 2000, let's say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's say,
12:50around that number. You have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me
12:57in a single report, and it's not because they didn't mention me in the report,
13:06because they never met me, they never saw me, and they never interacted with me.
13:12So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another, it's that I didn't
13:19see them. Okay, I see, okay. Does that? Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's helpful. So I'm not,
13:26when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me, and I just want to
13:32clarify exactly, because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls is, was one of the witnesses
13:39in my trial, specifically to use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view.
13:52It's better if it comes from her own words, and that way there's no second-guessing with what I'm
14:00saying. She herself said that she recruited her, brought her, and trained her. Those are
14:11own words. That you were, that you didn't know. I mean, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
14:22I really do have some slow cognition issues. So she says, she testifies that it was
14:31that that recruited her and trained her and not you. So wait, so then in her first FBI
14:41meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then
14:49is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid lady that who helped keep the house,
15:00John Alessi's wife, and with an accent, I believe she said. John Alessi's wife had short dark hair
15:09and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find, and you can ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously
15:16modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with
15:21a very strong British accent, and I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't
15:25recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't know. But it's not
15:30some random accent. Now the Hispanic, maybe, okay, that was John's wife that she saw, not me.
15:38And I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own, through her own words,
15:44she identified- Why don't we, why don't we stop there and let them ask the next question.
15:48Okay. So it's, so just, and look, I wanna, I wanna try to, I think probably tomorrow
15:58we'll, I wanna talk more about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that.
16:04Okay, sorry. No, no, no, don't apologize. So that's helpful, but I don't want you to be burdened,
16:11I want you to just tell the truth the best you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what
16:14people said at trial or what you know the press says about you. I just thought it was illustrative
16:18when you asked the question. It was, it was. Because it doesn't, I did not, I absolutely have
16:26no memory at any, no, I'm leaving separate to this obviously, so that's a separate story. I'm not
16:32going to pretend, well, we'll come back. We'll get to, go ahead. But in the terms of the scheme
16:39or whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that,
16:41I have no, no memory, no active anything of having seen anybody that resembles
16:55a young child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage. At all. It's not even
17:03like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either,
17:11including. Did, and when you say that house. Oh, sorry, Palm Beach. You know, I understand
17:21what you mean, but does the same memory or lack that I've applied to on planes at New Mexico,
17:30in New York. Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that,
17:35um, but Jolin Jane in my trial was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her
17:44in Palm Beach and I only saw her with her mother. Um, the other person is clearly also, uh, not
17:53an adult or even close. I believe I remember her now, but, um, that would be the only two or three.
18:01Whatever that is. So, um, did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with, um, FBI agents,
18:14either like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or just generally with FBI agents?
18:20No. Do you think if he had done that, you would have known, like he would have told you something
18:25like that. Like if I said to you, um, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say that's
18:34crazy? No, he wasn't, or maybe he was. I would, he wouldn't have told me that anyway. Um,
18:42I have two answers for that. I think if he was for real,
18:47I think he would have bragged about it to me as a show off because he could be a show off.
18:53And if he wasn't, he might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think,
19:05I don't remember him doing either. Now, with again, the caveat that in his, before I met him,
19:12finding money, I think he may have suggested that there was people who helped him, but that's
19:19the only context that I recall that in. What do you mean by that? When you said finding money,
19:25what do you mean? Well, his business where he, remember I told you, I think in that context,
19:32he showed me a photograph that he had with some, um, African warlords or something that he told me.
19:39And, you know, I get, I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, like that kind of thing,
19:48or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something
19:55nefarious, not nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but
19:59covert, I suppose, would be the word. And what about any other intelligence agency, like the CIA
20:05or Defense Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency? All right. I don't think so. I think that
20:19I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal. And I think that
20:24whole aspect of that is, can I use a bad word? Yes. Yes. Bullshit.
20:34And what do you, um, you think is bullshit, meaning, um, what do you mean?
20:43Would you have known if he was, would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying
20:46these things? I think he was because I, I think, I'm sorry, I think that, um,
20:53I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my, you know,
20:57my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever.
21:04And I think that certainly early in when I met him, he would have tried to impress me or try to
21:11show off, if you will, like he was that guy, you know, and he wasn't that guy. And so,
21:20and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me and he didn't. So I think it's,
21:24did, um, he may have tried to bullshit me, but no, sorry.
21:29So I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about
21:34post 2000, 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Um, did there
21:40come a time when he, Mr. Epstein did meet members of the royal family? Yes. Um, when was that?
21:49So I need to go back because I think I may have misspoke. I didn't misspeak,
21:53but it's something that I had forgotten before I met Epstein. He lived in London for a period of
22:00time. I don't know for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people,
22:10high society people that included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Moncton
22:17and Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist that she's a very well known
22:22journalist. And, um, when I, um, and he had, he was friends with the bearings, bearings bank,
22:32and he had like sort of that that was before he met me before. So in the 80s, yes, he was dating
22:41Eva Anderson, miss Sweden. I think, I don't know when she became. Okay. So earlier when you said
22:47that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the royal family or certainly
22:53British high society? He met, I don't know about the royal family, but certainly high society.
22:57Okay. And the reason why I know this is because sometime we can, this is a document, documentable
23:05thing, docu, whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date because I don't remember
23:10what the date is of this. So there's something that will peg whatever this date is. I don't
23:15remember when that is. Epstein went to London without me. He often went everywhere without me,
23:23but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London's my hometown. But
23:27anyway, he went without me and he went to a big event in, I think it was in the park. Anyway,
23:35it was a big event. It's on, it's on, it's on the news. It's like there's photographs of it and he,
23:40I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana or he really met her. I don't know, but this,
23:44I believe, was organized by Rosa. And so there's, I don't know if she was being set up as a date
23:51for him, maybe, because I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but I'm not going to do it.
23:57Okay. So that was pre-meeting you.
24:00No, that was when that event happened when we were.
24:03Oh, okay. That was not right.
24:05No, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together, but how about this? When I was his
24:12So now moving back to the 2000s, there come a time when Mr. Epsi met Prince Andrew?
24:20And others in the royal family or just Prince Andrew as far as you know?
24:26So as much as I can piece it together, first of all, let's just state I did not introduce him
24:35to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth.
24:42Start with that. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him.
24:46So if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event.
24:53And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that event,
24:56because I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So Lynne Forrester,
25:03who was a client or some type of client, I think she actually tried to date him or
25:07might have dated him for the record. She was in, do you want to ask me something?
25:17Okay. She was, she had a house or she rented a house in the vineyard. I think it was in the
25:24vineyard or Nantucket. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those.
25:28So either Nantucket or the vineyard. And invited Epstein to go. And I believe,
25:39I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event,
25:44he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein
25:55and had arranged with Lynne or I don't know. I don't know now. I'm speculating. Anyway,
26:00long and short, he met Andrew up there.
26:04And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when approximately was that?
26:07Well, we can date it from that picture. If you find me the picture.
26:10But do you know, without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately when was that?
26:15I want to say it was 2000, 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002.
26:23And I think it was actually Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through
26:33I think that's true. So, well.
26:37It's true that Andrew said that.
26:39No, I'm sure it's true. Because I, I'm English and my close friends are all
26:50close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew
26:57before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends. Some of them were
27:02very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship,
27:09my, me being present, or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey more, like trust him.
27:18So you don't dispute that you're, that you kind of had a role in them getting together.
27:25You're just saying you didn't say, Prince, here's Jeffrey.
27:28I would never have introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them.
27:32I couldn't imagine them being friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never, I mean, for real,
27:37there's nothing there to connect them. So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a really
27:43good relationship. I don't like that word. It sounds clunky. They had a
27:50Thank you. And through Sarah, actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed that.
27:56And they met and hung out, I want to say, two or three times that had nothing to do with me.
28:04I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because I was
28:10annoyed and I felt left out and I felt that it disrespected. And I was like, this is weird.
28:23And I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was trying
28:27to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being honest. And I thought the whole thing was annoying.
28:35What happened with the relationship, putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew's
28:40purported relationship with what happened as far as you know, with Prince Andrew
28:47and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described.
28:51Okay, so after that, at some point, Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New
28:58York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic, by the way. Classic, Epstein.
29:06Of course, if someone's like, all right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure
29:12that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed and yada
29:17yada yada. And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him or are you just going to have me do all the
29:21job? And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. Hi, wow. That's so nice of you,
29:28for real. Because you have to understand, like, I don't know if I told you this before,
29:32but I did not have the keys to his house. I was not allowed to go to his house unless I was
29:36summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this,
29:42we can tell this is a bit of a sore point, perhaps. Anyway, so Andrew came and of course,
29:49the minute we got together, I was like, yay, hi. And it was so nice because the difference
30:01of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit
30:07was insane. And our friendship just like lit up like this. Because first of all, we knew
30:13that I'm safe. I mean, safe as in I'm not, you know, Nigel Dempsey or taking a page.
30:21Not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house
30:26off. I really liked him a lot. And he's, it was so nice. And we just became really, really good
30:34friends. Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest. And then with respect to
30:41and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship?
30:47Would you like to ask that again? Relationship's a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word.
30:52Let's just start there. Okay. So I have read, I just want to like piece together. But don't say,
30:59before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of.
31:03Well informed by like all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said.
31:08But what do you know? What do you think? Or what did you see? What did you hear?
31:15What's an even bigger word than bullshit? Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. Just, but finish that thought.
31:20Why do you think that? I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like excited.
31:26I'm beyond excited. Okay. So there's going to mixture of what I've actually seen
31:32and know from the evidence and versus what I've played together. I'm impossible for me at this
31:38point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I
31:43physically have in here. But it's helpful for you to know. So the allegation, I have to go with the
31:51allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London in March, whatever that was, 2001, I believe,
31:59we went to London especially so that I could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she
32:09was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in my bathroom in my
32:21house in London and had sex, sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full
32:26blown sex and then left my house. Oh, he left him. She felt used and disgusted. And a photograph
32:34was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story.
32:42Oh, and then after that she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. This is where it
32:46will allegedly start. And they went to Tram. Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that
32:51night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Tram. Okay. So the first thing
32:57about that weekend, that specific weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country
33:04and I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonials that you can check.
33:10So that takes care of the reason why I, one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water.
33:18The second reason why, so by the way when I say that, my mum turned 80th that actual weekend
33:25was her birthdays on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London and I presume,
33:31but this I don't remember, is why when we were, so the whole trip started
33:38because of Alberto Pinto who is the decorator for the island and for New York as well.
33:47And he had wanted Epstein to go to see
33:53a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra. It was also for
34:02New Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that, and that was the basis of that trip.
34:09And I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be and wanted to
34:16was going to be in London no matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my brother's house in
34:21the country which is approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and a half outside of London
34:29at my brother's home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on
34:37the Sunday and then we left. So that's that. The second reason why, probably maybe even the
34:49more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that Prince
34:54Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house that's the size of this room
35:02is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what I just can't, I can't even know.
35:19Is there any way that it could have happened? No. Just describe the physical plan.
35:23Oh the physical. So my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet in total. Well maybe that.
35:32Is that right? Maybe. It is on three floors however. So you're talking about a little,
35:39it's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stables for the big houses. It was the
35:45it was the little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It was a gorgeous little
35:52place but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say it's a little burp or something,
36:00you'd hear it. It just, where she says that they had relations in a bathroom,
36:10first of all the bath is an old Victorian bath. I'm quite small, tight for me. I put my brother
36:21in there to see what would happen and it looks like a blivet which is a sausage in a layer,
36:26very tight skin. So her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't
36:33work. The bathroom itself is so small you can't lie flat on the floor so it couldn't happen on the
36:37floor because you physically can't. The bathroom is too small to even be on the floor and then
36:43the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small I decorated it to try and
36:49make it look huge which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it and what was so fun about
36:54being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom you saw like a hundred of you, like you do if you
36:58were in Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching
37:05everywhere and it's the image if you said you were, let's say you were, let's say the b**** is telling
37:11the truth, she could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family because
37:18that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God's green earth if that had taken
37:23place that this is something that you would miss because it's, you couldn't miss it. If you were
37:28standing there now you'd see the whole of the FBI, the whole of the Department of Justice standing
37:32behind you. It's like, no. Did you also explain where the tap was in the bathtub? Oh well it's an
37:42old bathtub. I had a tap. So if you were in the tub, this was the tub, my tap would be here.
37:58So you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have happened?
38:03What was that? And it's just, Andrew, he's so English. He's so, he's had a tie on.
38:25Do you think it was any way it could have happened or no? Absolutely on no way, no how, absolutely
38:32not. Wait, I haven't finished. So, oh sorry. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. It is me. Go ahead,
38:38go, go, go. Finish, please, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry, can I continue?
38:45When all this nonsense took place, where this whole story with the picture and the this and the
38:50that and this bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured and I can point you to some
39:01potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI
39:09in Australia. Just to be clear, the photograph you're talking about, you're talking about the
39:12famous one? Yeah, I have an image of it here. Where Prince Andrew's holding the **** and you're
39:17in the background. The fake. Just to be clear. So on the back of that, and this is in the discovery,
39:28by the way. I don't know if it's in, I don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now,
39:33but this is it. She wrote, she wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken
39:38in January of 2000 and on 2000 or 2001. I don't remember. Okay. So now in her handwriting that
39:46she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her writing,
39:52it's January to March? It's because it only, that's the only one that fit with the flight logs.
39:58That when she could be in London and this took place. The second thing is that,
40:03I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys are like, oh,
40:12the fake news is at work here. So there's a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is
40:22a lawyer called Brad Edwards. These two, and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor
40:30called Villafana. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship
40:39between these three parties that created that story. Why? Well, without putting aside the
40:47relationship, why do you think they created that story? I believe that story was created for
40:57the purposes of, well, there are multiple. The first one is financial.
41:04The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization,
41:15both of her book and in the papers, for the story to attack the family.
41:20So I think when you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo
41:31was fake. Do you think it was just misstated or do you think it's literally a fake photo?
41:37I believe it's literally a fake photo. Why do you think that?
41:42Well, first of all, I don't remember it. But the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mom's
41:54birthday party. But do you dispute that they've met each other?
42:04Do you know whether they've met each other? I do not know that they met.
42:07Okay, so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even
42:12positive they actually ever met each other. I know.
42:16So you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment
42:22or your flat in London with Prince Andrew? Absolutely. She doesn't know one way or the
42:30other. I understand that. The reason why I'm not hesitant, I don't have any memory of that,
42:36so that's not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see
42:42Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes, I can't say that that didn't happen.
42:47But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never at any time said Andrew up
42:56to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that
43:05her characterisation of whatever may or may not have happened physically would just know.
43:12And plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not conceivable.
43:18Did you attend social parties over, and again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus, so not the
43:36early years, where Mr. Epstein would host the party or be a big part of the hosting of the party
43:44and some of or many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party as
43:51guests or as entertainment? I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be
44:00there that were, I'd call them, the way I would think of it and I would characterise it were his
44:07entourage, that's how I thought about it. And that's certainly within the later 2000s, yes.
44:16Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on
44:26post-2000, but if there's something that comes to mind in the 90s, that's fine as well.
44:31A wedding? Weddings. With Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein,
44:41but I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
44:46Do you know, so you don't remember, you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding?
44:53I did. Chelsea Clinton's? But that wasn't with Mr. Epstein? No, it was with Ted Waite,
44:58my boyfriend. With Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein was at that
45:04wedding? He was not. And how did you, did you have a relationship, well, why did you get invited to
45:11that wedding? Because Ted and Clinton were very close. And how were you close to them? What was
45:18the reason you were close to them? I met President Clinton, first of all I went to the White House
45:25with Epstein once for, I think it was for a historical, like one of those benefits,
45:32and I met the President then, but like a thousand other people shook his hand. Then after that,
45:40I had a very good friend of mine that was known to be the Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine,
45:48and Philip and the President were very good friends. And Philip was a very, and I were very
45:54good friends, and so I actually was introduced to the President post his coming out of the White
46:02House and became friendly with him because of Philip Levine. Because of what? Philip Levine.
46:12There's some names that have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I just want
46:20to ask you if you know about. Piers Morgan. Is friendly with who? With Mr. Epstein. I have
46:28no idea. I doubt it. Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not suggesting that I know the
46:34answer to it. I'm genuinely just asking. Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd
46:38have anything in common either. Were you friends with Piers Morgan? I've met him. I've met him.
46:46I met him at an event in Manhattan. I can't remember what, more recently, so probably in
46:562012, something in that, and we had a very nice conversation. So I remember that. I remember
47:05thinking, I don't know if I'd ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice he was and how
47:10surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? So that's the only memory I have of that. I'm
47:18not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think. I don't have a correct or incorrect answer.
47:22No, I just don't know. I just want to try and- No, no. I want you to believe me, because I mean
47:28this. There is so much information in the public sphere about you and Mr. Epstein and others around,
47:37and some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false. So when I ask a question,
47:43if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something, this isn't got you.
47:50Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? I'm sorry? Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? Yes. When was that? I met him at
48:01Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No. Carrie, Carrie, Carrie's wedding. Carrie's wedding? Who did Carrie marry?
48:12Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry. Andrew Cuomo's wedding. When would that have been, approximately? 1990?
48:20So before- 1999. Something like that. But would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes.
48:33Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with JFK Jr.?
48:38I fancied him. You what? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancied him. Sorry.
48:44Besides him and finding him attractive and fancing him, did you have any sort of
48:49social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other and I thought he was wonderful and fun and
48:56I enjoyed meeting him, but we went out. I wanted to say we had a dinner or two, but I was very
49:03excited but that was it. And then Alan Dershowitz? What's the question with Alan? Say that again?
49:11What's the question? Do you know Mr. Dershowitz? Yes. Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein?
49:16Do you know the nature of their relationship? I definitely do know Alan. I'm just trying to
49:24remember if I knew him. I haven't tried to remember how I met him. I met him separate from Epstein.
49:30I don't remember. So that I have no recollection. I remember, I know that he was Epstein's lawyer.
49:40I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do actually.
49:47I think they met at the same Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forrester. I think that's what
49:53happened. I think that's it. And why do you think that?
50:01And did you, did you, you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney.
50:07Do you know whether they also socialized? So my present memory of when I remember two,
50:15I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island.
50:22And I actually remember that. And I remember I think going to his house in Boston. If he had
50:32a house in Boston, that's any two times I remember. Did you ever observe Mr. Dershowitz
50:38doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein? Never. Did you ever hear
50:44anybody, did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate? Absolutely not.
50:49Did you ever, did you know one way or the other whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage
50:56at the island or any locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
51:02I don't, I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't ever
51:06have any recollections. I don't believe I ever even saw him in a bathroom.
51:10I have no knowledge of that. I'm jumping around a little bit. You mentioned, I think briefly,
51:24that the Terra Mar project. Yes. What is that? I found a Terra Mar in, the idea of Terra Mar
51:36came I think in 2010. So I want to just explain Terra Mar a little bit. So Ted and I bought a
51:54boat, well Ted bought the boat. And its basis of the boat was to do explorations and sea,
52:07sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had since I was a child
52:14a love of the ocean and everything aquatic. And I've always been, I'm nervous about the state of
52:31the ocean. When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and the
52:39most exciting, we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was
52:44we looked for Amelia Earhart twice, added two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart
52:51as an example of an exploration that we did. And he had a foundation for the ocean and we worked
53:02with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole, we did amazing things. We bought, he bought the Remus
53:136000. So when the plane went missing, the plane that went to Air France from Brazil to Paris that
53:20went down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane. It's one of those deep sea undue exploratory.
53:25Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, one of the things I did not want to give up was
53:34my love of the ocean and everything that we did. Terra Mar, the genesis of Terra Mar came from that.
53:40Terra Mar obviously means land, sea, and the story of the ocean is that
53:47Earth really shouldn't be called Earth, it should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean.
53:52And so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because
53:59it was a bit awkward between us. And so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land,
54:05so within 200 miles, and so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was
54:09outside of the national borders, Terra Mar. And that's how that, that's the genesis of Terra Mar.
54:15So what was the time period of that? I think after I broke up with Ted, so
54:202010, 11 is when it started, and then I ran it all the way up until
54:26whenever the Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down. I shut it down because I didn't want
54:34what was happening to hurt any, the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the,
54:41I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
54:48Do you know Jean-Luc Bernal? Yes.
54:51How do you know him? I met him, so when I told you I was
54:56working for the European for my dad and I was in charge. So back in like 90, early 90s?
55:01Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so
55:11I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact,
55:18when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Pellman at Revlon,
55:25who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that, but socially not.
55:38Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other?
55:42I'm not sure. I don't, he would have, Epstein had his own fashion situation. So he would have,
55:49he didn't meet Jean-Luc through me. Did you ever observe them together over the years?
55:54Absolutely. Yeah, I saw them many times together. Did he visit the island? Did he
56:02go to Palm Beach House? Yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
56:06Did you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know what they got a massage?
56:13Maybe you didn't observe it personally? You don't remember?
56:19I don't remember. I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did,
56:26but I don't. How about Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein?
56:33What would you like to know? Do you know him?
56:35Yes. How do you know him?
56:39I guess, when I say how do you know him, is it a relation you had
56:43kind of separate from Mr. Epstein? Or did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
56:48I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein
56:53in any context. Socially I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at,
56:59and also his wife was English, Georgina. And I was friendly also would be a big word,
57:05more requiem. So we would see each other and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple
57:13of people who worked for Harvey, who I was friendly with. His primary producer, his name is
57:19Merrill Poster, who I was friendly with. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his
57:29own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? He did.
57:32Did they socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or New Mexico?
57:39I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses. I don't know that they were friends.
57:44I can't see them together either. I mean, literally. But I know that they certainly
57:51do that. I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory but I can't,
57:57that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called. I can't
58:04remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising
58:09money. I just don't know. But I never saw them. I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties.
58:16Let's go a few more minutes and take a break. We talked several hours ago about your father
58:26and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was
58:32involved in your family business that you know of? Absolutely not. In any respect. First of all,
58:40there was no family business left, to start with that problem. And the second one is,
58:47my family didn't like him very much and they were busy dealing with their own problems and there was
58:54no relationship whatsoever. I mean, my mom and he got along quite well. That was it. But that was,
59:01she's an old lady. He was nice to her. We're now being a little repetitive but
59:11you're confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father and so
59:17there's no, he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either.
59:23Absolutely not. I'm 100% sure of that. I never met him. I never saw him. I never heard his name.
59:28So, there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained a list of people,
59:42like a book of famous people that he knew. It's called a black book or a client list or a list.
59:55Did you know of the existence of any such list? There is no list. We'll start with that.
1:00:03The genesis of that story, I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception,
1:00:10if that is what you're interested in. First, to be short, there is no list,
1:00:16there is no client list, nothing like that. No, there is nothing like that. That you know.
1:00:21Okay, so you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead, tell us.
1:00:29I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence.
1:00:33Well, tell me what it is too and then we'll get the cooperation.
1:00:37Do you want to take a break here? Because this is a long story.
1:00:41Let's take a break. Yeah, let's take a break.
1:00:44All right, the time is 2.03 and we're going to take a break right now.
0:00Alright, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Miss Maxwell. It is 2 16 on Thursday, July 24th
0:10Recording device is now on
0:13When we stopped to take a break we were talking about
0:19what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list and
0:28That's where we are so you said you you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of
0:33The origin of this narrative, right? I just want to reiterate again
0:38There is no list that I am aware of I've never at any time at least during the period of time when I was
0:45Okay present. Okay the origin of this
1:08Or it has a it has a beginning in
1:112009 and then it has a it has a prequel but we have to start in 2009 in
1:24Epstein is I think out of jail and
1:30There are civil suits taking place
1:40Disgraced law firm Rothstein Adler Rothstein
1:45Rosenfelten Adler at that law firm is a lawyer who started there in
1:59April May 2009 called Brad Edwards in
2:14allegedly the FBI gets a call in
2:28He allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of
2:35Evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of
2:46All of his clients and
2:53underage girls massage therapists and
3:01The men who are having sex with them and he becomes he Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating witness
3:13Confidential informant sorry confidential informant for them and in a sting operation
3:26Former battler of Epstein's called Alfredo Rodriguez, and it becomes
3:35Evidence in the civil suit in the
3:47Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for
3:53Having an ak-47 or something weird some guns or something
3:58And goes to trial and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produced and in that criminal complaint
4:07Brad Edwards became aware of
4:10The list that will call it the list for the purposes of this
4:16after Alfredo Rodriguez's
4:19two depositions that are held in
4:24Epstein's a Epstein civil suit it's in the FBI's
4:31Affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad I was became where it after the second deposition
4:38It's in the criminal complaint. The truth is
4:47different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit and in Brad Edwards's
4:57Own statements on the subject
4:59the truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice once in July and once in August and
5:10Deposition told Brad Edwards that he had
5:16Handwritten notes or a journal or whatever in the deposition and
5:21Brad Edwards replies well, we're going to come back for a second deposition and the second deposition takes place in August
5:30what this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the
5:39Sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October
6:01few days after the list went into the FBI's hands and
6:08Subsequently Rostein himself was prosecuted for Rico and I believe went to jail for 50 years
6:15as part of that Rico case
6:18He admitted to on the record and was I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating
6:24Fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's in
6:40Simultaneously was this was going on my
6:50Was asked for ten million dollars to keep me out of any of Epstein's
7:00Had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure
7:05Say for the first time I was mentioned was by I
7:10hadn't been I was basically
7:15And then Ted was called for this ten million dollars and had been shown
7:20his people had been shown
7:24evidence that included
7:30the flight logs and various other
7:33Pieces of evidence now, we're going to the prequel part of this story. So then it can tie to how this starts
7:502007 Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement
7:54he then fights the prosecution agreement or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there and and
8:04Is goes to the court in 2008 when
8:09It's accepted or whatever
8:13Villafana was the lead prosecutor over the lead. Yes in that case and
8:22She I think was not happy with the outcome and
8:33Utilized at that time Brad Edwards to
8:42File the CVRA case now
8:52What I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself there is evidence
8:58There it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to so I just want to preface that
9:06The reason why I know that she
9:17Everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast
9:25What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before and Villafana called him and
9:33Told him to file it the sole
9:38Was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement
9:42So what I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards who she had also
9:50Been he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono
9:55some of the victims and
9:58He was also working for
10:01Rothstein's firm that was under Rico investigation for that entire time
10:05creating fake evidence in Epstein's case and
10:10She had just filed hidden secret
10:15Using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the number of this CVRA case that sole purpose was to overturn it and
10:29this was part of the effort to
10:33Utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning
10:37either of the NPA and or the new case against Epstein because
10:45Brad Edwards or I don't know if it's Brad Edwards because Rothstein's firm
10:50Asked my then boyfriend for 10 million dollars to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever
10:57I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a
11:03Billionaire because Ted Waite was a multi-billionaire. He had everything he was
11:09Way way more wealthy than Epstein
11:12And that is the reason why it had an eyebrow or was the basis
11:24and that list was created so then the
11:29Mesooses that were on that list
11:31I'd never heard of some of them. I
11:35Not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it
11:39This is me now knowing what's in the list today, and I believe that oh
11:49So there's a metamorphosis of this list. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents
11:56Contemporaneously is
11:58That it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has it then morphs into something that Alfredo
12:05Took a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer
12:11I know certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken that came out as a book and then it morphed
12:20Into at the civil times my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer
12:26And then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination
12:30list of mine and Epstein's that is a
12:34Metamorphosis through
12:37Documents that you can trace so the the there in your mind
12:48For what you just described
12:50There is a list. It's just it's just manufactured
12:54I mean have you seen the the list even fake like, you know, I
13:02Haven't seen it. But but I guess my thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things in the paperwork and whatnot
13:11So all this story is basically controlled by five people
13:14There's four alleged victims that speak about the list and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot and and the lawyers
13:23And now the prosecutors sorry the Southern District of New York for sure
13:30None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims
13:34They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody but the list itself. Yes, where is it?
13:42There is no list but Brad Brad Edwards said that he created the used about sorry
13:47He created a list he so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence exhibit 52 in my trial
13:56Have markings all over it circles and dots and whatnot and
14:02Brad Edward says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of
14:08All the people who were involved it includes Alan Dershowitz for the record who's marked
14:13I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't I don't know you'd have to look I don't have it but I
14:23Believe it's a way he did he marked up
14:26I don't know who somebody marked up that book of names and I think all the names of the people that they went for
14:32Were originally selected between two sources one was this alleged book of names and
14:39one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach and
14:46Just to finish it off
14:51I have some papers for you if you wanted them where
14:55Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money
15:05so the list that everybody the black book the list what you're saying is that
15:10your your your exhibit 52 from your trial, which is
15:15like a more of an address book a Rolodex type thing that
15:19Mr. Rodriguez Alfredo Rodriguez
15:22Your understanding is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list
15:26I don't know where that book actually comes from. Okay. I don't know what that book is
15:31That book is some type of a compilation
15:35But what it is is it's just pieces of paper with type. So if you had
15:40You could have made a list
15:45But you're referring to something that's been public for a long if we're thinking about the same thing you're talking about the you write
15:51It's like a bunch of different types of paper
15:54Or whatever I only have a copy of it
15:57But with big parts of it redacted publicly because yes people's addresses. Yes
16:06Perfect. Yes, so you will find we're looking at exhibit 52 now. Okay, so you're looking at exhibit 52
16:13The one they produced they the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see it as evidence
16:20the actual thing it was and I
16:22It has marks. It has tabs. It has things as names
16:26I've never seen it had like that list of music those that list
16:32basically the names that they choose to produce a trial now in
16:37Rosteen Adler's firm. I also have some documents where it's Rosteen
16:44His original scheme at Rosteen Adler was to place prostitutes. He had a bar
16:53Where he had girls and I believe he would use them and put them as fake
16:58Secretaries in people's offices and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom
17:04He got $25,000 for that and those girls I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's
17:20So but again, let's like so we're separating
17:25the evidence that came in at your trial and
17:31What you just talked about with Brad Edwards and mr. Rodriguez
17:37During the time that you were with mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently
17:45You never observed your you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who
17:57Linked to certain masseuses or anything like that absolutely no
18:03There is no list there is no
18:06I'm not aware of any
18:09Blackmail, I never heard I never heard that I never saw it and I never I
18:19While we're on this topic just gonna know we're jumping around
18:24We've been going out for a while. So I apologize, but
18:27There's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for mr. Epstein, I think for his
18:37That's true. What do you what do you know about that?
18:42my mom did a birthday book for my father at his sixtieth and when I
18:53Epstein would talk about his 50th. He said I don't know what I'm gonna do and I said well
18:57There's a nice thing is my mom did this book for my dad. He said I love that idea. He said
19:04Can you help coordinate it and
19:10He called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book and
19:16Some in some instances I call people that ask them to contribute. What was in the book?
19:21Like what was the ask of the of the people you call?
19:24It's his 50th birthday
19:30I mean it was an obvious question
19:31But you basically his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday
19:38Yes, they say happy birthday with like a wonderful day or something else
19:43There was no there was no ask but I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book and there were people that he would
19:50Ask himself to contribute and do you remember some do you remember specific names of individuals?
19:58Who did send letters or who did contribute?
20:01It's been so long. I want to tell you today. I don't remember
20:09Do you the the the article talks about
20:14Several names but including the folks the article which is on Donald Trump
20:17Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?
20:25Do you think the articles well, do you remember seeing
20:33That book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?
20:39Yes, okay, what do you remember seeing I remember there was
20:44There were some portions of that book, but what surprised me
20:51Yeah, that what surprised me was how few there were because I thought if you had those where are the rest
20:59There was none of mr. Trump
21:02In your discovery in my discovery. Sorry president Trump. There was nothing from and do you remember?
21:10But separate apart from your discovery. Do you remember one where the other whether president Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
21:16I do not remember and
21:19the the article that references the letter talks about
21:23Like that sounds like either naked a picture of naked woman or something like like that. Do you have any recollection of that? I do not
21:32Wait, just no, I don't
21:40So, what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the the book like you said portions of it or so
21:46What do you remember?
21:50That's I just want to say about the discovery that I had about
21:58Maybe this is an exaggeration. I'm not sure but in my mind it's about close to five million pages five million documents
22:03It was a lot and of that giant
22:08document dump that I received I
22:12Maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent. I was never able to access and this is documented on at the court and
22:21So I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't yeah, okay
22:25I just want you to know that and I think that that was by design
22:29But you but you do remember I do remember some seeing some pages. I did. Yes. Okay. Do you remember what stages you saw?
22:39Like from it was from who had written those letters or no, I really don't remember sorry
22:50And or so the same questions we've asked about some other individuals
22:54Did you have did you meet Bill Gates over the years? Yes
22:59Because of your relationship with mr. Epstein or separate that one. Well, I met mr. Gate
23:04I went to the tech conference. I think I went to tech conference and I actually spoke at the tech conference
23:09And not the main stage the sub stage and I also gave several TEDx's but and I met him there
23:15But we were friendly and I actually did
23:21Because I knew his I don't know if he's chief of staff or whoever Boris and
23:28I met him. I think once I I may have met him actually at 71st Street
23:34I I may have once I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant. I don't remember and that would have been
23:41Because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris, but that's all I remember. Do you know whether mr. Gates
23:49Traveled with mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses. So if that that friendship was after you know
23:57Was in the late 2000s
23:59So if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house
24:02Twice I maybe met him that I don't remember
24:04So you don't so I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein and you weren't you don't recall it being on the plane
24:09With him flying to the island or to anywhere. No
24:14Do you know someone named Reid Hoffman? I do who's that?
24:21Rita Silicon Valley guy is what Silicon Valley?
24:25And how do you know him?
24:28Through my friends in San Francisco. I have a I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco
24:33Part of that whole I've several actually people had
24:37So is that a relationship you have kind of separate and apart from mr. Epstein separate?
24:42Do you know whether?
24:44Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman. I don't know. Did you ever observe mr. Hoffman?
24:51Flying anywhere with you or mr. Epstein
24:58So there was there's a list a
25:17Massuses that that is floating around. I think you had a new discovery. I think you were just talking about that
25:23That list, do you know how that list was created?
25:31That all that stuff that came out of that book. I
25:34Know find suspect. It's far. It's part of the story. You just told us. Yes. Now. I'm not saying it's all fake
25:40I don't know what's real what's not. I don't know what name is true now that it's been
25:44To my mind anyway now that it has been
25:50contaminated and possibly fraudulent I
25:55I mean obviously the numbers that I recognize in my own those are real
25:58But how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend
26:08over the years when you were
26:11serving as like the general manager, so the
26:14mid-90s all the way into the 2000s
26:16Did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the massuses like a running list?
26:23So there would have so there's two things or three ways. So I know that the house itself
26:33had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the
26:38people that came to the house so that he could call so because I
26:43Only was with Epstein even at best half the time so
26:50He had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed and when I wasn't there he had to rely on somebody else
26:56Right, so be that John O'Lessie or whoever else
26:59So everybody whoever was traveling with him or however wherever he was he needed somebody else to access information
27:06So he had an assistant chief
27:10Who was his secretary who would be the one that would update his his computer
27:16You know like everybody has an address book
27:19But was was what you're describing
27:24I'm not make sense. I'm just was that a list of
27:28Massuses or a list of people that
27:31Might need to be contacted which would necessarily include a lot of the system. That's the latter
27:44Did you update that like were you part of were you one of the people that would would add names to it like if
27:51Leaves and mr. Epson says yes, it was good. Would you be part like how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it?
27:59Typically no because there would be an assistant who would do that plus
28:04Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever
28:09Or maintain or keep any of his messages in the office or at the house
28:14So typically that wouldn't be because I wouldn't be the one could I say to you I never did it
28:20No, of course not because that just seems ludicrous
28:24But as a rule of thumb the answer would be no
28:332007 8 9 investigate the investigation out of the Southern District, Florida. So you said that you weren't
28:40Contacted by law enforcement
28:43After mr. Epson was charged. Did you have conversations with him about the investigation?
28:49He never talked to me about it. Did you um, I
28:55Mean, I can't let's put this way if he did I have no recollection of it
28:59I mean, I'm sure he must have said this is all whatever he said or it's nothing or I mean
29:04I just don't have any I just don't have any memory. I mean, I just I was I was with Ted my I was like gone
29:14I mean plus I just didn't
29:17Want to know I know so you don't know firsthand
29:22Why the US attorney in Florida?
29:25Made the deal that he did me mean you weren't part of that discussion along the way
29:30Mr. Epson didn't say I'm getting a good deal or you know, I
29:35Something's happening with the case. That's very good. You were you to the extent, you know anything about it. It's just from what you've
29:41Heard or read from others not from mr. Epson. Is that right? He never talked about the non-prosecution to write key with me. No, but
29:49He did but it's still enforceable
29:54I mean he never said hey, do you hear you happy with this deal like that?
30:03He never he never enjoined me to the
30:07NPA, but I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why
30:14It's okay. You don't need to get it. Yeah, I don't want to talk about the legal. Yeah, the the what's on appeal
30:20I'm just no I want the reason for my question just to be I'm not trying to eyes and there's there's a very strong belief
30:28That he got a very good deal and that and and that he should he should have been sentenced to
30:36More time or got a different sentence from the feds that are non-prosecution agreement
30:40And I'm not asking you to a plan on that, but I'm wondering whether
30:46He ever talked to you about that, but it sounds like he didn't
30:50That he got a good deal. No, I think actually
30:53Well his comments I've read was that he didn't get a good deal and I think that the you know when he fought it
30:59So hard is because he didn't think he did when he was serving a sentence
31:04were you ever were you around during that time like when he was allowed to leave during the day or
31:09Travel during the day. I never called him. I never saw him and I never went to the jail. Um
31:17So I'm gonna ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them
31:21I just want to know whether you whether they
31:24Resonate with you. Have you ever had any contact with any representative that you know of from Mossad?
31:33The Israeli intelligence agency, can you ask me that again?
31:35Has if you have had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad and Israeli intelligence agency
31:44Well, not deliberately
31:45Pardon me, not deliberately
31:48And did you know we asked this we talked a little bit earlier we're just to put a finer point on it
31:53Did you ever know that mr?
31:55Did you ever we ever told you ever think that mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency including Mossad?
32:05Well, I don't believe so but I wouldn't know I mean I would be very surprised if he did I don't think so no
32:12We've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure we've there's some that we haven't covered. Are there any
32:23Foreign nationals. So right now we've talked about
32:29British the royal family a little bit and maybe high society folks in Britain were there any international
32:38Businessmen or politicians that that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with mr. Epstein
32:44That we haven't already talked about over the top of my head. I can think of the hood Barack. You said that mr. Epstein
33:00At some point in the mid to late 90s he started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?
33:12Mean he took pills for his heart. I think
33:16But I don't know whether no substances
33:19What do you know anything about his heart condition?
33:23I know we talked about this at you know 945 this morning
33:26but do anything about his heart conditioning beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to
33:35Other than what he told me. No, he never shared anything, but he did take pills
33:38I don't know anything about that and I like I said he did the testosterone
33:44Which made him me and we're jumping around a little bit
33:50Do you know somebody named Donald Barr
33:54He is I can represent to you
33:57What's the former headmaster of the Dalton school what you mentioned earlier? All right
34:03Do you remember any conversations with me to have seen about a book that mr. Barr wrote called space relations?
34:12about aliens and sex
34:17Do you know whether well have you ever met the former attorney general the United States bill Barr? No
34:26Do you remember whether mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with mr. Epstein?
34:34I don't I don't recall any did you have a relationship or no, I'm using relationship and I appreciate you like that word
34:51Mr. Epstein's brother mark Epstein. Yes. How did you know him through Jeffrey?
34:59How would you describe your relationship close friendly my personal yes
35:05I'm not that close but friendly enough. I mean, you know
35:14Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother mark from what you observed. I mean they weren't brotherly but I think
35:23That I don't know their periods when they were closer and then when they weren't I think sometimes
35:34I've seen fans his brother irritating
35:41And I think I know the answer is given what you just said about bill Barr, but did you ever hear any
35:50From mr. Epstein or anybody else that that bill Barr had any role in
35:55Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role on that process with mr. Acosta. I never heard
36:08I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong
36:15You do the view of mr. Epstein of whether he
36:21Committed suicide or whether something else happened. Can we take a break break? Yeah. Yeah, we get a great. Yeah, sure
36:31Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway, because we lost one of the day
36:35Alright, so we're gonna take a break at it's 253 Thursday, July 24th
0:00We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell.
0:05The time is now 310 p.m. Thursday, July 24th.
0:10My colleagues alerted me to a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you.
0:18One is, well, we talked a few minutes ago about this birthday book that there's been press about.
0:32I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway.
0:37Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that?
0:46And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that or would somebody else have done that?
0:55I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump, I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly.
1:05So it could have happened that way, if it happened at all.
1:09You mentioned Ehud Barak. What was his involvement?
1:27This would have been in the later 2000s, so I do not know how they met, but I do know that they, I don't know if friendly would be the right word,
1:44I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other.
1:47And only because my father, anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel, I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel,
2:01and so I pay attention to it, and we have ties to Israel.
2:07When you said it was later though?
2:08Ties meaning friends and family, relations.
2:13Do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
2:22Were you ever with them together?
2:25I think I met, I have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or, I don't remember.
2:34I just know that I did see him and I'm trying, struggling to remember the context around it.
2:39But if I, I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it, any deep memory of it.
2:48And maybe this is obvious.
2:50And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press that maybe something that brought it to my memory, so that's also, I mean I'm also,
2:56I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just, it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory sometimes.
3:06Do you know a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
3:14I didn't know she was a gymnast.
3:17I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but please don't assume that that's correct.
3:22It's based upon my words.
3:24Did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein?
3:27I think, yeah, she did actually.
3:29I think that she met him, one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
3:34What, again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast.
3:38What time period would that have been?
3:41Like after you, like since 2000?
3:45I wanted to say, could be the 90s.
3:53But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time.
3:55I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94.
4:01He obviously was very busy.
4:09Did someone named Mark Middleton?
4:15He was in Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's administration, I think.
4:21And how do you, do you know him?
4:23Well, I met him and that is, I met him through Mr. Epstein.
4:27And do you, was he, from what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance with Mr. Epstein?
4:37I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him.
4:43I mean, he seemed friendly.
4:44I don't know if I would characterize.
4:46I mean, having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize that.
4:50Do you know whether he like flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein?
4:53Did he visit the island?
4:54Do you know anything about that or their relationship as it relates to that?
4:57I never, I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island.
5:03How about former U.S. Senator George Mitchell?
5:06Yeah, I do remember George.
5:08What do you remember about him?
5:10We went to the most memorable, I went to, well, I was friendly with his wife, start with that, with Heather.
5:19And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times.
5:25I was just friendly, I would say, separately from her husband.
5:30I was friends with Heather.
5:32I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends.
5:34You became friends with Heather.
5:37Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell?
5:41Did they travel together besides New York?
5:44Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?
5:47I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to,
5:58As the four of you, so Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?
6:04That's my recollection.
6:06And what were you there for?
6:08Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican.
6:13It was extraordinary.
6:15The most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope, asking his divorce.
6:29Do you know the former president of Columbia, Andres Pastrana?
6:38I met Andres Pastrana in a pub in Dublin.
6:45Did he travel with Mr. Epstein that you know?
6:54I don't know if he ever was on the plane.
7:00I don't think he ever came to the island.
7:04But I went to two places with Andres Pastrana.
7:12One was to Columbia and Epstein came to that.
7:15And the other was to Cuba and Epstein was there and Pastrana was, I think, was there.
7:21And what were the purposes of travelling to Columbia and then Cuba?
7:25I'm a helicopter pilot and Andres is a helicopter pilot.
7:40And we just became friends and I flew a Black Hawk in Columbia.
7:51And how about to Cuba?
7:55I have a friend of mine who was the cigar distributor for Monte Christmas maybe.
8:07I can't remember which cigar it was.
8:09And he organized the trip and we met Fidel Castro.
8:16When was that approximately?
8:30It had to be 2002, 2003.
8:37Something like that, I think.
8:39There's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions.
8:46But as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names,
8:56including some of the folks we talked about today and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.
9:04For any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein,
9:14whether with masseuses or with women or girls who were travelling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at?
9:22I did not ever at any time see that.
9:26And for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more,
9:32but for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else
9:37where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done,
9:42whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something?
9:47If anybody had ever reported anything, first of all the answer to that is no.
9:51And also I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that,
9:58I would have immediately done something.
10:02And I never heard it, I never saw it, and no one ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing like that.
10:08Okay. All right, so we took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death.
10:14Oh, bless you. That's okay, take your time.
10:22So Mr. Epstein and his death.
10:28So you were not obviously at the MCC during that time, correct?
10:41Just take some water, it's okay, no problem.
10:46You were not at the MCC during that time, correct?
10:49So you're going to tell us what you believe, but I just want to make sure I understand.
10:57Your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew him, right?
11:06And actually there's a third component.
11:09The answer to that is yes.
11:11The third component, which is having experienced now the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
11:31What I do want to be careful about is asking you to speculate because anybody can do that and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion.
11:49Do you think that, the third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of, there's an OIG report, there's an STNY investigation about that, do you think he did not die by suicide given all the things we just talked about?
12:09I do not believe he died by suicide, no.
12:11And do you believe that, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
12:20And I ask that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison?
12:43In prison, where I am, they will kill you or they will pay, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
13:13So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement or the short fallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
13:25Which is a little bit different than my question, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside what could happen on the inside, on the outside of prison who wanted him dead so badly that he would have or she would have caused him to be killed on the inside?
13:47I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.
14:06Yeah, so you don't have any reason, first hand knowledge or even speculation it sounds like, to think that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about.
14:23I don't. No, because I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008, 2009.
14:37Yeah, I mean that's the point. I don't think there's value in talking, there's been a lot of information about what happened in the MCC.
14:47But what is important to me is the idea that he didn't die by suicide. That's one thing, but to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, do you have any reason to believe that that's true?
15:10I do not. I have any reason to believe that and I also think it's ludicrous because if that, I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.
15:22If they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target.
15:29In the time, so we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 2009, 10, and then the time that after Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you spoke with him?
15:43Maybe 2016, 2017, maybe 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017, in that area, I believe.
16:02And what, when you're thinking about that last time, was that you had been talking to him a lot and then you stopped or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that point?
16:13I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was with regards to the civil suits, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in.
16:23I needed help. I needed information and I didn't have what I needed.
16:31And so that was really what drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which ultimately led to where I am today.
16:46And so when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he wasn't, I thought he was angry with me anyway.
16:55He didn't like what I did and I wasn't interested in what he had to say to me.
17:00What did you think he was angry with you about?
17:02I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything.
17:15When the civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death, did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like that?
17:31I don't think we coordinated in this. I'm not sure. I don't want to misspeak.
17:37I don't, there was some degree of communication for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place.
17:46So definitely, I mean I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely, coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make a line myself.
17:59That's not where we were going here. But I was definitely trying to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself.
18:08That's 100% true. And the degree to which that took place, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that though. I don't want to mislead you.
18:19We touched on this earlier, but I just want to, I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could.
18:28Going up through that time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed?
18:42Meaning, did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when he started behaving much differently, did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point?
19:02My views, I don't like the people he was with anyway. So I don't find, I don't like, I like people my age or older and I don't find the society or the companionship of younger people who are younger people I suppose is really that enjoyable.
19:35So I don't like the company that he chose to be with. And so I just find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting. It's probably the nicest way I can say it.
19:50Okay. So I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can.
20:10I think tomorrow, you said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with Mr. Marcus to, if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see.
20:26Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you. But if there's something you think that you don't think that the government has seen or you think that it was important for me to see, let Mr. Marcus know and he can share it with me.
20:43Tomorrow, we'll certainly have some follow on questions when we all think about tonight. And I think you will too. We can all think about stuff we've talked about. We've covered a lot of different areas.
20:57I do want to talk more about you. So by design today, we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about everything under the sun that we've gone through today.
21:13I do think it's important when we all evaluate what you've said today and your story to also understand why you're here. So you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial.
21:30And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to kind of say your piece or to say what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say.
21:51And I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a she said situation or he said she said situation. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct because it's important I think for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things to also talk about that.
22:21So we'll do that tomorrow. I want to talk about the circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of misinformation or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation, but about the time from 2019 up until the time that you were arrested.
22:42And then like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done. I'm not I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. So I'm not there isn't like we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens.
23:00But that's not a negative thing. I'm just saying that that's so so you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So may I say something? Of course. Yes.
23:13I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I certainly don't subscribe to all the all of everything that I see.
23:34But I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive.
23:51And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit. If it needs to be addressed.
24:08I've seen it. It struck me. And I would like to give it to you. Sure. What it's worth. Okay. Does that seem something that that's fine. Yeah. I don't like. Okay. That's fine. That's great.
24:21Okay. So why don't we stop for today. I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then see you in the morning. Thanks.
24:31This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is three thirty four.
0:00Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9 24 a.m. My name is Spencer R.
0:07Horne. I'm the assistant special agent in charge of FBI New York, and we are here for
0:12a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.
0:15Good morning. Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you?
0:21So the proffer agreement we signed yesterday, I just, there's a place on it for us to all
0:31kind of initial. It's exactly the same document, and you'll see your signature. If you can
0:36just initial right to the left of right here, right there, and then Mr. Marcus will initial
0:44as well. Thank you. And just to kind of, before we get going, I'll just say that exactly the
0:54same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today. So there's no, I'm not going
1:01to do formal introductions because it's exactly the same group of folks. So we're continuing,
1:10Ms. Maxwell, our discussion of yesterday, and the same kind of rules apply. If you will
1:19take breaks, if you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers, no, absolutely no problem.
1:25Just let me know. I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if there's anything
1:31that I say that's confusing, definitely interrupt me.
1:38So I think the easiest thing to start with is, is there anything that we talked about
1:46yesterday that we're going to go through some more names? I think that's one of the places
1:52that we interrupted just because there's a lot of names. But aside from additional names,
1:59is there anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that we talked about yesterday
2:03or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or not?
2:09Some more names did come to me in the night, and I did have some additional memories just
2:19for clarity. I believe I said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have asked from
2:27Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that the allegation at least is that I met s*** in Mar-a-Lago,
2:36so I felt that I needed to address that, and I didn't want to leave that hanging because
2:40that seems weird under circumstances. And also, but I couldn't remember anyone that
2:46maybe, you know, it's a long period of time. So the issue is not that I'm trying to not
2:50say, but I just don't remember anybody that I would have, but it's not impossible that
2:56I might have asked someone.
2:59I don't know exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think what you said yesterday
3:04is different than what you just said. So, yes, there's...
3:07Okay, okay. I just wanted to be, I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something
3:11and that it didn't...
3:13Definitely has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that you received a treatment
3:20from her at some point and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Epstein. Do you know affirmatively
3:26whether that's true or false, or do you just not have a memory either way?
3:31I really don't believe it's true, but I know that I did go to spas, and if I met someone
3:38I did ask if they're home, so I don't... In the realms of possibility, it could have,
3:44but I have no memory of it, and I don't believe that it's how it went down, but I don't want
3:49to believe it's true.
3:50Okay, so I want to talk about, we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part
3:56of your relationship with Mr. Epstein, kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better
4:01word, for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and ending up at around $250,000 per
4:08year. There's, as you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton
4:15of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years, in I think totaling something
4:24like $30 million, something like this. What's the... Why was that money sent to you? Like
4:34Well, first of all, I don't... I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to
4:40Okay, so tell me what... I am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was sent at trial
4:47on that issue, so what do you dispute about that?
4:53Well, I believe... I don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I ever saw what they accused
4:59me of, but my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter,
5:07for instance, that I never owned and I was never mine and...
5:15In other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things or...
5:19Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it, so the accounts, those accounts would be controlled
5:24by his accountants and...
5:27Even accounts in your name, you're saying, or one of your entities?
5:30Well, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities. Maybe I did contemporaneously, but
5:37I simply wouldn't know today, so if there was an entity, let's say account X, if I really
5:45set that up myself or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever,
5:49but in no substantive way, I can't think of the right word...
5:56Did you have control of it?
5:57I had no control, is what I'm saying.
5:58So when the government, when there was testimony or the government admitted evidence that showed,
6:04for example, five million dollars in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, what you're saying
6:14is that that happened, but that the you there wasn't money, he wasn't giving you money?
6:21I'm not going to say that for everything, because maybe there were accounts that money
6:26was sent to me, but I can say that I've no... Like the helicopter, I can definitively say.
6:33I'd have to look at all of them to be accurate for you, but to explain how or why I could
6:42be receiving money, and I certainly did, so I'm not disputing all of it.
6:46When you say that, let's go back and look at why did money have to go into your accounts
6:52or account that was controlled by others, but in your name to purchase a helicopter?
6:57Oh, that's a very good question. I'm not sure I know the answer to that. I don't...
7:06So let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the issue, right? So the accusation
7:14by the government based upon the evidence they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions
7:21and millions of dollars over the years, and the reason why he paid you that is because
7:24you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting young women, many of
7:31whom were underage, so that he could sexually abuse them. That's their allegation.
7:44From what you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he
7:50paid for a lot in your life. Your flights, where you stayed with him. He didn't expect
7:57you to reimburse him along the way for food, so he took care of you for many years.
8:03On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, $25,000 to $250,000. What
8:09else did he give you? What purchase? Was there a time when he gave you a million dollars
8:15or $500,000 as a bonus? What financial benefit did you receive from him? Besides what we've
8:22already talked about, we don't have to talk about what...
8:24Oh yeah, I got it, I got it. So my goal always was to become independent, independently financially
8:35secure and work for myself. I've never been one to not work. And in that regard, over
8:43the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to
8:53him my desire to be independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding. And with that in
9:02mind, I wanted to have my own businesses or my own money coming in, independent and separate
9:12from any salary that I received from him. And I needed that for my self-esteem. I've
9:19never been... I mean, obviously salary, and it was a very generous one. Please, I'm not
9:25belittling the sum of money because it's huge, but I was brought up to work and I was brought
9:32up to be my own. The first time, so I would either propose businesses to him or he would
9:43actually suggest, why didn't I do something? And the first deal that we did or the first
9:49business that we had or I had and that he financed for me, so he gave me, he lent me
9:57all the money to enable me to do this. And then I reap the profits, which I don't remember
10:03now because we varied over the deals that we did that I would give him 50% or 25. It
10:09was sort of, it was random. And I can tell you what it is. So it was in Palm Beach, actually,
10:18and it was in real estate. And they sold what was the grounds originally of an estate called
10:25the Phipps Estate. And then they converted the land that came with that estate into houses.
10:33And I did, I think two or maybe three, I can't remember now, but certainly one and maybe
10:41two, possibly three. I don't think so. I think two that then were flipped and there
10:48was a profit. So that would be an example of that. But I didn't have the money. So
10:53he lent me the funds to do that business transaction and then I reap the profits.
10:59And so, but when a financial investigator, like the FBI looks at accounts, they don't
11:08know kind of the conversations you're having. They just see the money. So in those cases
11:13when that happened, when he financed that with you, would he send money to you? So does
11:19that explain some of the money? I believe, I think it does. I think, for instance, there
11:25were two gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look up,
11:32I think, if I'm right, that had the doors that would come up like this, that were only
11:38very limited number that were made. So I knew that we could get those and flip them right
11:44within 24 hours, for example. Also, my, here's another example of something that you guys
11:54wouldn't have known about is I became a banker. I got my Series 63 and Series 67 banking
12:03license and became a broker for like a new, because I was day trading. Everything I had
12:10I day traded through an account. And I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite
12:17a lot of money doing that. When was that? That's again, that's in the 90s again. I
12:26think, you can find it, it'll be my banking license, right? That'll be something that
12:30you can look up, probably. So whatever that is, it is. And I just don't remember when
12:37that is, I'm sorry. So, okay. And so for example, I was doing really, really, really well. And
12:44so he was like, how do you do that? Why are you investing in, I don't know, Apple when
12:51nobody liked Apple? This is before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't know Bill Gates, so this
12:57is not related to him. But my family-
13:01Don't charge with inside of it.
13:03No, I'm not trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness, please no.
13:08It was just a joke at the beginning.
13:12But going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12. And I had always
13:25an interest in business and finance. Not very sophisticated, I'm not suggesting that. And
13:32so I liked to trade. And so I did. And I did well. And so then I would tell him what I
13:39was doing. Now whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me in some other accounts
13:44that he had. Because he did a lot of, my observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him
13:50personally and have recollection, personal recollection of him trading money a lot. Tens
13:59of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
14:02That was, that he was trading for other people or that was his own money?
14:06I want also to clarify something for you, or clarify or underline. Wexner was, in my
14:14opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in 91, right? All the
14:23way until, oh, I don't know, because I wasn't that friendly with, well, I did travel with
14:33Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with me because
14:42of my family problems.
14:46You mean the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or allegations of?
14:53Yes, yes, that's what I'm talking about. And now actually today, not contemporaneously,
14:59but today I don't believe that that's even true. I think it was used as a means to not
15:05have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. And I believe
15:13that now because within the discovery there was a lot of, well not a lot, but there was
15:18some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things
15:23from me and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type. That's in the discovery somewhere.
15:31So okay, so the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of
15:47Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. 7.4 million dollars, I think.
15:53What was that for? Was that the helicopter?
15:55That was my question to you.
15:57I don't know. So in 2007, in 2007, that was what?
16:02That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like that, I don't personally
16:09have any memory of receiving a check from him for 7 million dollars. I just don't.
16:16But I would have to, I know, so the answer to your question, to be precise...
16:23Well you would remember if it went into your pocket and it was...
16:25He never paid me for services that you just described, 7 million dollars for any nefarious
16:35Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and him helping
16:40you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel with
16:47him, you eat with him. But there is these massive amounts of money, one-time payments
16:56You'd have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that came into my account or I had
17:00any control. I have no memory of that.
17:04Well but if there's records that show it coming to your account, it sounds like what you're
17:07saying is that you have no memory of that money being yours. That money is not somewhere...
17:15No, I wouldn't be like, oh yippie, let me go, I've got 7 million dollars, I'm going
17:18to go buy myself a yacht. Or something else, or move it to some other... No. I don't think
17:26if you look, you'll have to check. Obviously you will. I don't think you'll find that money
17:33moving to any account other than mine or... It shouldn't show, I don't believe anyway,
17:39as far as I regulate, wouldn't show me spending it. Does that make sense?
17:44Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers
17:51at trial, that that money went in.
17:54Oh, 7 million dollars in when? What year?
17:56Well there's several years, in 2007.
18:002002, there was 5 million dollars that you were paid in 2002.
18:05Oh, well I'd have to, I don't remember. So there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't
18:12have come from him later.
18:13The biggest one was in 1999, there was over 18 million, 18.3 million. But what you're
18:26saying it sounds like, and then if you don't know, we can move on, but when we're talking
18:32about 18.3 million in 1999, 5 million three years later in 2002, 7.4 million in 2007,
18:43that money adds up to around 30 million dollars. You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning
18:49that's not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.
18:53I don't believe any of that was my money. Now, I do, just like I said, we did do these
18:58things with the cars. I don't know if any of that money, some of it, if it moves, some
19:06of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had interested with him.
19:11That's possible. But I don't think this money is mine.
19:14But also, the record should reflect too, that there were times Gillen's name was used, for
19:19example, Air Gillen. Her name was in the name of the entity, it had nothing to do with her,
19:24and if you pulled signatures, there's no evidence.
19:30What I'm trying to just make sure that I understand is that the idea that you were paid 30 million
19:38dollars between 1999 and 2007 in order to, by Mr. Epstein, to reward you for recruiting
19:46young women, that is, you're saying that is categorically completely false.
19:51That is categorically false.
20:02I want to, we went through several individuals yesterday, and I want to go through just a
20:15couple of more names and ask if you know them, and if you do know them, how you know them.
20:24Do you know Elon Musk?
20:27And how did you meet Mr. Musk?
20:30I met him in, I don't remember the year, but it's going to be in, I don't remember the
20:38year, 2010, 11, something like that, I think, if my memory serves. And I was at an event
20:51for Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, and Sergey had arranged for, it was for his birthday,
21:03and we were, a bunch of us, I don't even remember how many we were, but not many of us, maybe
21:10if I say 40, I could be wrong, if it was 30 or 50, I don't remember, I'm sorry. Went to
21:21another friend's island, somebody called Mr. Bigotse in the Caribbean, and not with Epstein,
21:30he was not there to celebrate Sergey's birthday, and we were there together for, I want to
21:38say, three or four days, something like that, in my memory, and Mr. Musk was a present for
21:45And that was the first time you met him, as far as you know?
21:48As far as I remember, yes.
21:50Did you meet, did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?
21:55I don't know if I've ever met him. I know that he has a brother, and, but I don't think
22:03Aside from that time, around 2010, on the island of the Caribbean for a couple of days,
22:10did you, have you seen, do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?
22:15We met, I was at the Oscars, and we met at the Oscars.
22:19What year was that, earlier or later?
22:22It was post that event, I believe.
22:26And do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
22:29I believe they did, and the only reason I say that is not from my memory, but because
22:34I saw, I think I saw, my memory is that in Discovery, they were communicating on email.
22:42So you have no personal knowledge of that, it's just what you've seen from the press
22:48And I believe his brother as well, actually.
22:52Mr. Musk's brother as well.
22:55But I, like I said, my memory is not as good as I would like it to be, and I just want
23:05Do you, you mentioned I think yesterday in passing, well not in passing, but as part
23:10of another answer, Andrew Cuomo.
23:14Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
23:16Well only because he was married to Kerry.
23:21And I think I knew his brother as well, what's his, he has a brother, right, he's on TV,
23:32Yeah, you mean the TV, the former TV anchor, or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?
23:38So, but I would say just socially, not, I'm not close friends or anything, but because
23:43we, I was friends with Kerry and I met him a few times and I've certainly met his brother
23:48as well a few times.
23:52And the same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether Mr. Epstein
23:56knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or Ms. Kennedy, your friend?
24:03Um, I don't think so.
24:06And so you never, you don't recall any of those three individuals like flying on Mr.
24:12Epstein's plane or visiting him in Palm Beach or at the island?
24:17Um, I think you mentioned former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday, but if not,
24:22do you know Mr. Kerry or not?
24:24I've met him, but I don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him.
24:29Well, really, I can't even properly characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very involved
24:36in the ocean at work through the, you asked me yesterday about Terima, and if I recall
24:45right, I met Mr. Secretary that way through the ocean, but he wouldn't know who I am,
24:53Do you know whether, well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?
25:00And does, is that through your own life or through Mr. Epstein?
25:06Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?
25:11And so for the folks we just talked about, so former Secretary of State John Kerry, Ted
25:16Kennedy, did, you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew him, so I take that to mean you have
25:23no recollection of them flying on his planes or visiting him?
25:27I don't know about that, but Bobby Kennedy knew him, Bobby the Health.
25:36Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kennedy?
25:38Bobby knew Mr. Epstein.
25:39How do you know that?
25:40Because we went on a trip together, we went to dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas.
25:53When was that, you know, approximately, I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was
25:58That was early, that was in the early, well, let me back up, I knew Bobby's wife, Mary,
26:08pretty well actually, and before he met her.
26:13Just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are you talking
26:18about that you knew Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married, so when are we talking
26:28I, in nineteen, let's get my head straight, well, would this have been before you met
26:40Yes, I met him before I met him.
26:43So we're talking about the 1980s?
26:44Oh yes, thank you, the 80s.
26:47So we're talking about the 1980s, and then?
26:52I had a very, very long-standing boyfriend, and his brother was dating Mary at the time,
27:03and we were all good friends.
27:05And then Mr. Epstein, did Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?
27:14I don't think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone says everything happens through me,
27:23that's just not true.
27:24I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London, and those were
27:29very, they were what the people would call fancy, they were fancy people.
27:37But he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America.
27:44So when I met him, he was already, you know, Wexner, and he had Henry, and he had, he
27:51was, I don't know if then he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, but he was friends with
27:56Ace, and, you know, like, he was, he was well-established, he didn't need me, and he was, you know,
28:05he was, Eva was, you know, a major model, so he had all these modeling connections and
28:12friends in that business that, long before I met him.
28:19And so the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that in the
28:26I think it was in the, it would have been in the, I want to say 93, 94.
28:36So a very long time ago.
28:38A very, very long time ago.
28:41A few years into the, your relationship, a few years into the time that you knew Mr.
28:48I mean, I don't want to hold myself to the dates, because I really...
28:51No, no, I'm not holding you to dates.
28:53Because I really do.
28:54I've said that a lot, because I appreciate we're talking about the 80s and 90s, and even
28:58And I just want you to know, I haven't had any, I don't have anything to review, so I
29:03haven't had any ability to, short of my legal material, obviously, which you can, you know
29:08I have, because I came with a box work, but short of that, I have nothing with which to
29:12refresh, or very limited stuff, I should say, I don't want to say nothing, to refresh my
29:19Do you have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy, of there being anything inappropriate with
29:23Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?
29:32I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.
29:36Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses?
29:40Do you know either way?
29:42But not something you remember?
29:44I mean, absolutely not.
29:46I mean, he, well, I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it.
29:51I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age.
30:01I never saw inappropriate, but now, I'm not, I'm not going to say your hands or, I mean,
30:10that to me is not inappropriate now.
30:12Somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different, but I'm not talking about anything that resembles
30:19the accusations that were discussed here, so that would be a flat note to any man.
30:28Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr., with Bobby Kennedy continue into the
30:322000s as far as you know?
30:43And do you know whether Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy continue to have relationships
30:50I have no personal knowledge of that.
30:52I mean, I would, because here's another thing is that everyone puts us together like a monolith.
31:00He literally had a separate life from me.
31:02I literally had a separate life from him.
31:05Now, did they say, well, of course they did.
31:07I'm not crazy, but he kept a lot to himself and he didn't like to share.
31:12He was not a sharer, or at least not with me.
31:14Mr. Epstein didn't share your thing?
31:17Did you, do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills?
31:22Used to work in the White House as a lawyer.
31:24How do you know Ms. Mills?
31:25I met Ms. Mills through President Clinton.
31:30Do you remember generally the timeframe that you met her?
31:36Sorry, I'm just trying to remember.
31:49I'm trying to get my dates right.
31:53Well, okay, I can't get my dates right.
31:56It's something you probably can, but it's going to be in the early 2000s.
32:02I think I wanted to say 2002.
32:06So it was after President Clinton left office.
32:11And so it was in the 2000s.
32:15And how did you meet her?
32:16What were the circumstances under which you met Ms. Mills?
32:19I went on a trip with the President to South America.
32:23With which President?
32:24Oh, sorry, President Clinton.
32:28I just wanted to make sure it was clear.
32:30Okay, so you went on a trip to where?
32:35And who, and so Ms. Mills was on that trip?
32:39And President Clinton was on that trip?
32:42Who else was on that trip?
32:46Who worked with President Clinton?
32:49And was Mr. Epstein?
32:53And what was the purpose of that trip?
32:56Well, the President had been...
33:01I mean, the President met with...
33:08I can't even remember all the presidents.
33:12Was this part of President Clinton's work after he left office with his foundation?
33:18Or was it something for him?
33:21I don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started.
33:25So if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was pre or post.
33:29Because without that, I can't pin the reason.
33:33Do you remember what it was for or not?
33:36Don't overthink or underthink the reason for my questions.
33:40I don't have any idea why you went on that trip.
33:43I don't know an answer that I'm keeping for you.
33:45No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and give you the information that you see.
33:49Do you remember why you were invited to go?
33:52Were you friends with somebody?
33:54What was your role going on that trip?
33:57I didn't have a role.
33:58So do you remember why...
34:03Do you remember who invited you to go?
34:12And how did you know Doug?
34:16Because Doug, again, was back with Philip Levine.
34:23And do you know whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
34:33I don't believe there was any relationship other than I helped.
34:37Well, without me, I don't think there would have been those flights
34:40because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for...
34:46Well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip.
34:53And I thought it was an honour and a privilege to be part of something so amazing
35:00and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary.
35:08And please, I don't mean it in any other way other than there's a form of fantastic expression.
35:15So I was asking around the question, but I was asking...
35:18Were you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane?
35:24Responsible is the wrong word.
35:26They were able to use you to make sure that they could...
35:29You helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane for the trip?
35:32No, I don't even know if when I was on that...
35:34In fact, I think that trip...
35:38I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the President.
35:43If I'm right, and I think I am,
35:45I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even...
35:49Not that they'd never met because Epstein had gone to the White House,
35:51but they had not met...
35:53I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met and it would be weird.
35:57But they met because of me and the plane was because of me.
36:01But that trip was the first, I think, the first trip I took with the ex-President
36:08and I don't believe Epstein and he had met.
36:12We're talking a time period when I was trying to leave.
36:18Not very successfully, obviously,
36:20but I was branching out on my own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein
36:27and trying to hide all kinds of businesses that I was into.
36:34I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine with the Cleveland Clinic.
36:38I mean, I'm not going to bore you because I don't think
36:40that's what you guys are interested in,
36:42but those were the sorts of things that I was looking for him to finance
36:46so that I could stop being general manager of a hotel.
36:53Did you take other trips with some or all of those individuals
37:00without Mr. Epstein in later years?
37:03You said that was the first time that you had been on something like that
37:09and it was an honor and you were spending time with former President Clinton
37:15Over the years, did you do that more than once?
37:20We'll talk about those.
37:22Like multiple times?
37:23Like too many to count?
37:24Or three or four times?
37:29I went on a lot of trips.
37:30Now, I don't recall all of them,
37:33not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything,
37:37I just don't remember them all.
37:39After a while, you know in the incredible job that you have,
37:43all of you, that when you're so high-pressured
37:46and you're spending so much time with extraordinary people
37:49like you do with President Trump,
37:56And there's a few things that stand out because at the end,
37:59it's all just extraordinary.
38:01There's cars and sirens and presidents.
38:09So I understand, but talk,
38:13so don't give me specific,
38:14understand you can't give specific numbers.
38:17Describe more about kind of that part of your life
38:20and your relationship.
38:22I'm using relationship.
38:23You don't like relationship.
38:28So just describe what you were doing
38:31with those individuals.
38:35So when I say those individuals,
38:36I'm talking about former President Clinton, Doug,
38:40other folks that work with him.
38:42Yes, there were loads of them.
38:43And all of them, you know the team.
38:45I don't need to give you all the names.
38:47You have them at your fingertips.
38:49And I can confirm if you give me names,
38:53because they're not all going to pop into my head.
38:56So I started spending a lot of time,
38:59I don't want to characterize that,
39:01I started spending time with the former president
39:04and with Doug and his team.
39:07And I had no purpose really,
39:16I obviously offered something.
39:21Ideas of, I don't know.
39:24Anyway, and he started to travel.
39:30I don't remember if the first trip was Africa
39:34But at some point, I think there was actually two trips,
39:38So it was to Europe and then to Africa.
39:45I think maybe it was all one trip.
39:47And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he didn't want
39:52to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else
39:59And I was like, well, okay.
40:01And so I ended up doing the whole trip
40:03without Mr. Epstein or his plane.
40:07And when you were traveling with them,
40:12what were the purposes of the trips?
40:16I think these were all, I think actually was the AIDS,
40:20was one of the primary ones for his AIDS foundation
40:24when he was working to do that.
40:27And they were always a humanitarian side to the trips.
40:32And we went to Egypt and that was, oh, yeah.
40:39So it sounds like you're describing one,
40:43right now, one trip with lots of stops.
40:46It could be, but I have a feeling
40:47that I went on other trips, but I can't remember.
40:55I don't know if that's the same trip.
40:57When you went on these trips,
41:01were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane
41:04or did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane?
41:09How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane?
41:11Again, I'm not holding you to exact, but...
41:13That was a full, that was packed
41:15because there was a lot of secret service.
41:17It took all the secret service as well.
41:19So it was, whatever the detail is for secret service,
41:25And on how many occasions,
41:27besides the trip you just described,
41:29were there other times when they used,
41:32when President Clinton and the folks he was with
41:35used Mr. Epstein's plane?
41:37I think it was, there was twice, maybe.
41:40There was that, but it will reflect on the logs.
41:42There won't be anything that's not on the logs
41:44that you have already.
41:45Were you, by the way, responsible for the logs in any way?
41:48Like, you've seen the logs and they're public
41:49and you have them in Discovery,
41:51but over the years when you were working with
41:54or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the logs?
41:57I wasn't, no, never.
42:00The pilots, the log book was their personal log book.
42:03I never even saw them have it.
42:05I never saw them fill it in.
42:07And then there was a second set of logs,
42:10the flight manifests,
42:14and I never saw those either.
42:16I was never allowed, I suppose,
42:18because they don't want me to see.
42:25Do you know, so do you know whether
42:28Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship
42:32with President Clinton
42:34different from the way you just described?
42:36So different than being with him
42:39with respect to his foundation or something like this?
42:45When's the last time that you went on a trip
42:49or saw President Clinton?
42:51It was in, it was late,
42:552008, 2000, I don't know,
43:0616, 17, 18, something.
43:09It was in Los Angeles.
43:11And what was the purpose of that meeting?
43:14He was hosting something or he was at an event
43:17and I was in May and I had dinner with him.
43:25Did you ever meet Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?
43:33When did you meet her?
43:44again, please don't hold me to it,
43:52that came from the island,
43:56not from the island,
43:57from the Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard
44:00back to New York is what I think.
44:04Okay, so an east coast island
44:07like Nantucket or something like this?
44:09The ex-president never came to the island.
44:14is that the only time that you met Hillary Clinton?
44:18I went to the house in Chappaqua a few times.
44:21And why did you go to the house?
44:25Just to see President Clinton
44:28or Hillary Clinton or both?
44:30Yeah, I mean, as a friend.
44:36I don't remember any reason.
44:38Why, though, was somehow I communicated
44:40that was in coming, driving back past Chappaqua
44:43if they were home and stopping.
44:45I know it sounds a little flippant,
44:47but it could have been even something as...
44:50And do you know whether Mr. Epstein
44:53had knew or had any sort of business dealings
44:56or associated with Hillary Clinton?
45:01Did you ever see them together?
45:04Did, do you know whether
45:07Epstein ever did any business transactions
45:13I'm not sure how to quite,
45:17I don't know the answer to that strictly.
45:23I was part of the beginning process
45:26of the Clinton Global Initiative.
45:29And that was something that
45:36And Epstein may have helped me
45:39And in that context,
45:41he may well have involved himself,
45:44but only in the context of
45:46something that I was trying to do.
45:49So when you say involved himself,
45:52meaning like give money to
45:55the Clinton Global Initiative
45:57or something like this?
45:58Well, so there's that.
46:00I think he did do that.
46:01And that, I believe,
46:02the money that he may have given
46:03could have been independent of me.
46:05But I think it's just easier
46:08if I just tell you how it happened
46:11otherwise it sounds,
46:12sounds all odd and funky.
46:17with the former president.
46:22have you been to Davos?
46:28Have you been to Davos?
46:30OK, well, you know it's a,
46:31you know what it is, right?
46:36I thought that the former president
46:39should have his own Davos
46:41because it would be,
46:46they had been thinking about it anyway.
46:48And so we were talking about it.
46:50And, you know, it's a very heavy lift
46:53to get something like that to go.
46:55And I was friendly with
46:58one of the people who had,
47:01I don't know if he was at the beginning of Davos
47:05but he was running Davos.
47:07I don't know how to describe
47:08his actual role at Davos.
47:10And I had conversations with him
47:11about what did he think,
47:14just because I was having dinner with him
47:16about if Clinton could get something like that
47:19to go with his thoughts.
47:20And he was very, very enthusiastic.
47:22I mean, he was like,
47:23that's just an incredible idea.
47:25So I put them together.
47:27What's that person's name?
47:29I knew you were going to ask me.
47:35I didn't know if you knew his,
47:36if you remember his name.
47:38can't remember his name.
47:40It may come to me tomorrow,
47:42but eventually these things like surface
47:44like in the middle of the night
47:45I was scribbling names
47:46that I couldn't remember from yesterday.
47:49But his name will come to me.
47:50And if not, we can find it.
47:52So, so you, when the,
47:55just still staying on your relationship with,
48:00your association with the Clintons,
48:03you were part of the ramp up
48:06or the startup of the Clinton Global Initiative
48:08and helping them and supporting that effort.
48:12I would say very, very central to that, yes.
48:19was he part of the work around that
48:24or just in support of you?
48:27He supported me to help them,
48:30but then I think he may have tried
48:33to use that to insert himself in some way
48:36that would not have surprised me at all.
48:38And I know that he was annoying
48:42and sometimes I could catch him on the phone
48:44and he wouldn't always agree
48:45with what I wanted to do.
48:48I don't really care what you think.
48:49But I didn't go over so well.
48:54And I just want to say
48:56it wasn't my idea for his CGA.
49:00They had had that idea before.
49:02I just helped bring key personnel.
49:04You're saying the idea of President Clinton
49:06kind of having his own Davos.
49:08I'm not owning that.
49:10I'm trying to elevate myself
49:13in any form of importance here.
49:16Did you go to Davos with President Clinton
49:19more than once or just once?
49:24And I think maybe twice,
49:25but I don't remember.
49:31And I think you said
49:33you're not aware of President Clinton
49:36ever going to the island.
49:39Absolutely never went.
49:40And I can be sure of that
49:41because there's no way he would have gone.
49:43I don't believe there's any way
49:44that he would have gone to the island
49:46had I not been there.
49:47Because I don't believe
49:48he had an independent friendship,
49:50if you will, with Epstein.
49:53Did he go on the boat?
49:54Yes, but that's very different
49:55from going to spend time on the island.
49:58Plus, the story as told
50:00is so patently absurd
50:03that I flew him in the helicopter.
50:05I am a helicopter pilot.
50:07But the notion of me flying
50:09an ex-president on a machine
50:12I would never even take that responsibility.
50:19Did you ever go with President Clinton
50:22to any of Mr. Epstein's properties?
50:26So like New Mexico, Palm Beach,
50:31I have no memory of him
50:34in any of those places.
50:36When you were in London
50:37with President Clinton,
50:39did you ever go to your flat with him?
50:44I don't think he did.
50:48because he wouldn't even be able
50:51to carry all his secret service with him.
50:54I don't think so, no.
50:57We talked a little about
51:04the Duchess of York,
51:05Sarah Ferguson, yesterday.
51:07When's the last time you saw her?
51:21hanging out with her,
51:22socializing with her
51:23in the 90s, 2000s, both?
51:26I don't know if she liked me very much.
51:40I think my friendship with her ex-husband,
51:45sometimes she really did like me,
51:52and sometimes she didn't.
51:53So maybe a friend of me?
51:56It was always friendly when we were together,
51:59but I think that there was
52:00some latent hostility.
52:02Is that something you've heard
52:04since everything came out,
52:05or along the way you've felt that way?
52:07No, that's how I felt.
52:08That is a characterization of myself.
52:10That's how I felt about her.
52:12I was always friendly with her.
52:17I've seen her many, many times,
52:20and she's also super, super close
52:24that we were very good friends with in England.
52:27I think that she liked Mr. Epstein.
52:33Why do you think that?
52:37My female intuition.
52:44No, I don't remember it.
52:48It's possible that there's things...
52:50Well, it's not possible.
52:52I know that there is discovery,
52:56But I think she had a thing.
53:04or some folks from Hollywood
53:06that I want to ask you about
53:08just to understand whether you knew them
53:10or Mr. Epstein knew them.
53:13How did you know Mr. Tucker?
53:14I think only from that flight to Africa,
53:17but I do think that they met...
53:19You say that flight to Africa,
53:20the one we were just talking about
53:21with President Clinton?
53:26But I also think that
53:27they kept a little bit in touch
53:29and I think they met
53:32or I have a memory of him,
53:36I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch.
53:41I don't know how to say that.
53:42Do you know Mr. Tucker
53:44besides that flight?
53:47And do you know whether...
53:49When you say you think that
53:52you mean you think that
53:53Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker...
54:02I know him also from that same flight.
54:06Aside from that flight,
54:07do you know him from any other than?
54:11Yes, I do know Naomi.
54:13And I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein
54:19the former President Clinton.
54:22Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
54:24separately knew Ms. Campbell?
54:27I think he probably met her through me.
54:33And so for those three,
54:36Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell,
54:39did they ever travel to
54:42any of Mr. Epstein's properties,
54:44the island or New Mexico?
54:48Well, not to my knowledge,
54:50Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey.
54:54Naomi Campbell may have.
54:57She may have gone...
54:58Well, she certainly...
54:59Well, I believe she visited
55:04And I believe she may have gone to the island.
55:07And she may have gone to see his house in New York,
55:10whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe.
55:13They were friends or friendly.
55:18What you just said, she may have,
55:20were you on those trips?
55:22I don't have any independent memory of that,
55:30Her relationship, her friendship,
55:33making me use your word,
55:36her friendship with Mr. Epstein
55:41was independent of me.
55:43But you also had a separate friendship with her
55:46before you met Mr. Epstein.
55:50Larry Summers, the former Secretary of the Treasury,
55:53did you know that person?
55:56I met Mr. Summers through Mr. Epstein.
55:59And the same question, just generally time period.
56:02Are you talking about early 2000s, 90s, after that?
56:07I honestly really don't know.
56:10I did want to say something I forgot.
56:12But there was yesterday,
56:14you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties.
56:17He had a rental in Boston as well.
56:19But not for very long,
56:21but it was another place that I had to put together.
56:23And I only went with him once,
56:26and he would go there independently of me.
56:28I would not go with him.
56:30Was that in the 90s?
56:32I think it was, yes.
56:35Mr. Summers, do you know what his relationship was
56:41with Mr. Epstein, business, personal, both,
56:45I think he spoke to Mr. Epstein about business, I don't know,
56:49but I think they were friends, they were friendly.
56:52Did you know whether Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes
56:56to any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?
56:59He may have, but I don't think if he did,
57:01I was on any of the flights.
57:03I mean, there's other issues.
57:05I traveled so, so much that I really,
57:08the flights just blur.
57:14I don't think he knew him.
57:16I did, but I don't think he did.
57:18How did you know Mr. Soros?
57:20I was friends with his kids.
57:24John, and I can't think of his other child.
57:40I met him, but just socially,
57:43and he may not remember even having met me.
57:46I was excited to meet him.
57:48When are you thinking, when would you have met him?
57:50If I met him, I think it was either at an event or at his kids,
57:54it wouldn't have been at his house.
57:56An event, I think actually in the Hamptons I met him.
58:00He was staying at somebody's house, if my memory serves.
58:04What was your relationship?
58:06How did you know his kids?
58:08I was out and about in New York, a lot.
58:18And, yeah, just socially, I think.
58:22Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids
58:24ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes?
58:28Did you ever visit either the island or New Mexico or Paris?
58:32No, I don't think so.
58:37So we tried to identify names that have come up
58:42either publicly or in other lawsuits.
58:47Are there any names that come to mind that we haven't?
58:52We've talked about a lot of names.
58:54There's some folks that you think we've forgotten to ask you about.
58:58Well, you asked me about names, and I have some names,
59:01and I just want to give you some context for the names as well.
59:05So we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.
59:08She had a boyfriend, and he was Frederick Fekai, the hairdresser,
59:13and he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.
59:19And then what time period are you talking about?
59:22Like 90s or 2000s or both?
59:31I think the 2000s, actually, for that.
59:33You can date that because from when he...
59:36I think he probably knew Frederick before he dated Elizabeth.
59:43And when you say they were very friendly, did they travel together?
59:47I don't know if they traveled together,
59:49but Epstein didn't go out very much.
59:52I mean, he did go out, but not...
59:54And sometimes if he did, I think he would go out
59:57and maybe see Frederick.
59:59And then there was...
1:00:01I mean, he had a bunch of guys that he would...
1:00:06I would know that he would see or meet,
1:00:11I guess now I'm not sure he had any friends.
1:00:13I don't know, but...
1:00:15OK, what other names?
1:00:17OK, so Henry Cherokee, who had an island near his.
1:00:23Henry was a financier.
1:00:25He was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day.
1:00:28He had an island in the Caribbean near...
1:00:31In the British Virgin Islands.
1:00:33And there was Branson's Island there.
1:00:35I know that there's an allegation that they met.
1:00:41I think I remember that I went to Richard Branson's Island
1:00:46and maybe he went another time,
1:00:49but I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends,
1:00:52but he did go, and I think I went with him.
1:00:57Do you know whether Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's Island?
1:01:00If he did, I was not there.
1:01:04Sorry, but it's possible.
1:01:12He had a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly with,
1:01:15all centered around Harvard.
1:01:18So I remember him, Martin Novak, who's a mathematician,
1:01:23Stephen Jay Gould.
1:01:28I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould came through the Harvard angle,
1:01:31but I know that there was a...
1:01:36Epstein would have dinners at the house
1:01:39that I was tasked to organize,
1:01:42and the scientists were a very major component of that.
1:01:46They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific.
1:01:53But if you were in the area of brain,
1:02:01He would invite them to the house,
1:02:03and they would come, all of them.
1:02:05Any name you can name me, they would be there.
1:02:08So let's talk about those associations or relationships
1:02:15he had with the mathematicians and with Harvard,
1:02:18and I think with MIT to some extent as well.
1:02:21For sure, MIT too, yeah.
1:02:23What, from what you observed,
1:02:25what's the reason behind him having...
1:02:29developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT,
1:02:34and with certain professors
1:02:36and others associated with those institutions?
1:02:39He really was profoundly interested in that area of science
1:02:44and in the brain and in...
1:02:47I mean, if you were in Stephen Jay Gould
1:02:50or the major scientist on happiness,
1:02:54it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest,
1:02:59not from anything.
1:03:01And how did he become friends with them?
1:03:07How was he able to spend time with them?
1:03:09Meaning, did he donate to the university
1:03:13and then they were kind of...
1:03:15It was mandatory fun for them?
1:03:17Or did he have relations with them
1:03:19where he would host them?
1:03:21I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first.
1:03:24But when I met him first,
1:03:27I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff.
1:03:31I've read, so this is why I'm saying this.
1:03:34I was not responsible for this area of interest.
1:03:38I mean, I certainly...
1:03:39Sorry, just to balance a second
1:03:41before it slips my mind and I leave something out.
1:03:45There was an institute in New Mexico called...
1:03:54The institute of...
1:03:58We're not talking at Alamos.
1:04:00Anyway, all right.
1:04:01There's a very famous institute in New Mexico.
1:04:03You can look it up.
1:04:04It'll come to you the minute you put it in your computer.
1:04:07And there had some of the biggest brains ever.
1:04:10That relationship came through me.
1:04:15And that is because my father was one of the major scientific...
1:04:23Hit up my family fortune when I had one.
1:04:26Came from scientific publishing.
1:04:29And when it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday,
1:04:35my father was in the Second World War, I told you,
1:04:38and he won the Military Cross,
1:04:40and then he actually did become...
1:04:41He was part of intelligence back in the war,
1:04:44and his job was to interrogate German scientists
1:04:49and prisoners of war.
1:04:52And then he partied into a business with Springer Verlag
1:04:55and then into Pergamon Press,
1:04:57which was the scientific journals business.
1:05:01And he had an interest.
1:05:03He believed that its knowledge is what would prevent war
1:05:08and the biggest scientific discoveries,
1:05:11well, not all of them,
1:05:12but many of them are coming from the Eastern Bloc.
1:05:15And that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute
1:05:20and Murray Gell-Mann specifically.
1:05:22And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann, sorry.
1:05:25This is the Santa Fe Institute?
1:05:28And Murray Gell-Mann was there,
1:05:31and Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well.
1:05:34He was the man of the block.
1:05:36So do you know whether...
1:05:43When you meet Mr. Epstein in the early 90s, continuing on,
1:05:46so not what he had done before,
1:05:53Why do you think from what you saw or what you heard
1:05:56he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships
1:05:59that he had with Harvard and with MIT?
1:06:01So I think that that may have come with Wexner.
1:06:05I'm not sure, but that's something that I think
1:06:08that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard
1:06:11and that he used that relationship to...
1:06:15I believe he funded a lot.
1:06:17And if he didn't, that his clients,
1:06:19of which Wexner obviously was one,
1:06:21would fund, and he would then make...
1:06:24He would arrange the fund or organize the fund or...
1:06:31We'll take a break in a minute,
1:06:34but just to kind of set us up for what we're going to talk about next.
1:06:40We talked yesterday morning
1:06:42about Mr. Epstein's kind of business
1:06:45and how he had money.
1:06:48Did he seem to live beyond his means
1:06:52as far as what he was making?
1:06:54So did you ever get the sense while you were with him
1:06:58that it was suspicious or curious
1:07:03how he was able to have the funds
1:07:06to buy two planes, an island,
1:07:09the ranch, almost unlimited funds?
1:07:14You said it perfectly.
1:07:16I thought it was astonishing,
1:07:18but I didn't have any reason
1:07:21to believe that it came from anything nefarious.
1:07:27I never saw him really do anything other than be on the phone.
1:07:31And he had a lot of meetings,
1:07:33but he had a lot of accounts.
1:07:35And he dealt with pretty much every financier
1:07:39that you could care to mention.
1:07:42And if I could have access to the names,
1:07:45I don't have to tell you which ones.
1:07:47I just don't remember them all.
1:07:49But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman,
1:07:55all of them, to my mind anyway.
1:07:58And most of the major businessmen at that time,
1:08:01he was in the Council of Foreign Relations.
1:08:04So you had access.
1:08:06That's an extraordinary list of people.
1:08:10And then you asked me about his...
1:08:13I thought about it last night,
1:08:15how to try and explain what it was.
1:08:17And I think the best thing is to focus
1:08:19only on Wexner's business.
1:08:20So I was present for some of their meetings
1:08:23in some of their business.
1:08:28And so things that I personally recollect
1:08:32and I know I heard
1:08:34was that he would...
1:08:36When I told you yesterday,
1:08:38I think that no detail was too small,
1:08:40to do the contracts with the staff, I think.
1:08:43And I saw that myself.
1:08:45And he also organized all the trusts
1:08:48for all the children.
1:08:50So if Wexner had kids...
1:08:52If he did, he did have children.
1:08:54So every time there was a child,
1:08:56he would create a trust for that child.
1:08:58And these were complex financial structures
1:09:01that would contain stocks
1:09:04of the various businesses.
1:09:06He restructured when I was there
1:09:09Wexner's business in its entirety,
1:09:13And then not only that,
1:09:15but there were business interests.
1:09:17So Wexner owned or built or designed
1:09:19or I don't quite know how to characterize it,
1:09:23which is a center outside of Ohio,
1:09:25Columbus, Ohio, specifically.
1:09:30I remember this conversation.
1:09:32He built himself a very large house.
1:09:36It's one of the biggest private homes
1:09:38and he built all the houses around him.
1:09:42this is so random,
1:09:43why would you do that?
1:09:44And he said to me,
1:09:45well, because I want to make sure
1:09:46that the people around me,
1:09:48I want my friends around me
1:09:51well, whatever, OK.
1:09:55enormous wealth my whole life
1:09:58At some point I just say,
1:09:59OK, whatever, I get it.
1:10:02And so that's what he did.
1:10:03But Epstein ran New Albany,
1:10:05which included a country club
1:10:08and a golf club and a...
1:10:11your boss is one of the all-time great
1:10:13businessmen in this area.
1:10:14You know what that is.
1:10:16And he certainly does.
1:10:18So there'd be that.
1:10:19And there was a business business
1:10:21Well, he told me he owned it.
1:10:23I can't say that for sure
1:10:25because I don't know,
1:10:26but it's a sports thing.
1:10:29Is that a business?
1:10:31I thought about it last night.
1:10:42Now, how he owned that...
1:10:43Well, he told me he owned it.
1:10:44But how he owned that,
1:10:46But that was before I...
1:10:49Or he said he did.
1:10:51And he had other businesses.
1:10:54I know this notion
1:10:55that he did nothing
1:10:56and he just was a grifter
1:10:59I'm not going to say
1:11:01but it's not what I saw
1:11:02and it's not what I believe
1:11:06it couldn't have been
1:11:07that he didn't grift
1:11:09or whatever the word is
1:11:11But I saw what I thought
1:11:14looked like real work.
1:11:16Well, why don't we take a...
1:11:21All right, the time is now
1:11:23and we'll take a break.
0:00We are resuming from break, and the time is 1049 on Friday, July 25th.
0:06Alright, so we've talked around this issue, but talked about it a little bit.
0:22I want to spend the next hour or so, or however long it takes.
0:29I want to focus exclusively on Epstein and his criminal conduct with respect to women.
0:40You said yesterday a couple of times that you now recognize or think that there were things that he did that you didn't know about
0:55that he kept from you or that you didn't see. What did you see?
1:02So you said yesterday, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.
1:12Women have said that were there, that say they were there giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly.
1:33So what did you see and hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said and read, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?
1:58So I saw Epstein with women. What I mean by that is he would have women around him, or women on the plane, or women in his house. That's how I'm explaining that.
2:20Those women were very interested. My characterisation of the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterised by their interest in him as I would see it.
2:45And by that I mean I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him, be with him maybe socially or whatever, I never saw anybody under any form of duress, in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterise it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.
3:11In the entire time I was with him, travelled with him, I never saw that. So any time I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet.
3:29He'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders. I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that.
3:45I saw physicality, but not anything that had a character, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move, I never saw anything that was non-consensual.
4:08Thank you. I never saw anything that was non-consensual. I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug. I never saw what I would characterise as anything that was unconsensual.
4:26Did you see him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something non-consensual, did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages?
4:45Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been less than normally clad for a massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless. Yeah, I did see that.
5:02But what about in, so yes, I agree, that's one area. So women who were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom on, but beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them?
5:20And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or, you know, I'm saying like there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of women who have said that they were, that they engaged in sexual contact, and I agree there's a broad range of what that can, how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.
5:43I saw him being physical with women. I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. And to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-consensual or coercive with them, not sure, in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas.
6:11There's one where is the women who are not of age, therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual. Correct. So let's start, and I want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody who's overage, because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two.
6:29Well, so does the law.
6:33No, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you.
6:36Okay, so I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here. I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation because there's nothing about that that's right.
6:49I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical from my trial. Let's deal with that because that's something that I can say. I never saw that with them at all, and I would say that as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described.
7:15I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true, so I'm not here to defend him, but what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity.
7:32And so let's divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with two areas. One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age.
7:51So for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which would be more likely to mean that they were in high school.
8:06Would I talk to you about that? And so were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage.
8:28No, I never knew that. And I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, 17 in England. If someone had said they were 17, I'd have read so much that that did happen. I would never have permitted such a thing. I would never even know what I would have done.
8:53So some of the, I think even someone who testified at trial, but certainly publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. In your mind today, you kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage.
9:25Well, I believe you're talking about Jane, and I'm very happy to address that. I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. I don't believe, no, no, no, I'm not. I just wanted to.
9:37Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get into it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. I don't want to go there. I'm not, I'm not going to do that. But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide, right? So there was a zone.
9:51And he did meet her, and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a young child, and I knew that she was not an adult. But I don't believe he met her until she was 16. So I'm not doing a he said, she said. I'm not doing that because that's not what we're here for.
10:11But he didn't meet her till she was 16. And the entire testimony of the 14, 15 and 16 year old is therefore not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did.
10:30But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14 and 15 and 16 is not accurate.
10:40And there's testimony or there's, and again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving like an 18, you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true, would by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Do you recall doing that?
11:08I do not. I mean, no memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast, who she really is. Her name is. So I did not meet until actually she was either 20 or 21. So it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card and the testimony.
11:37Do you accept that at some point, and we talked about this yesterday about how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women.
11:54And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it. Is that something that you in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later?
12:04So I just also want to be clear. I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was involved or friends with, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s.
12:23And then the slide to 18 younger looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior.
12:41And so when you read, I guess two different times, right? One was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18.
13:06At that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself, this happened or this could have happened? I missed it? Or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that accurately?
13:26That's a very fair question. So I think that my view of this at that time, call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't think that stuff came out in public. I may have read things, but my first real memory of that is at the trial.
13:46But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that she lied in her civil deposition. And I could never recover from that.
14:01What are you referring to? Her entire characterization. I don't remember how she came, but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew to be false. So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover.
14:24And that tainted the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false.
14:42Yeah. And the reason why I think, and I said to Mr. Marcus this morning that we were going to talk about this, because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you.
15:07Okay. Now you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception, because you didn't have a key to his house. You weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were.
15:19But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein.
15:36And the challenge in my mind, just to be, I told you I would tell you when I had issues, and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it, that's persuasive, right, that that happened.
16:03And so if that's persuasive, then, and I think it's beyond contestation that he preferred younger women, and it's also beyond, I think, at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women, well, I don't want to say that you agree with me on that.
16:25I certainly believe that there were younger women that were abused by him.
16:30And so then, so the layer that I want you to, that I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said, oh yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.
16:46She saw me there, the door was open when I was there, and then much more egregious, right, that you participated and that you were part of it.
16:54And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is, whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme.
17:08Understanding, in my mind, I'm talking about 1994-5 to whenever, late 90s, early 2000s.
17:16And let me just interrupt, and all I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein.
17:26I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him, and he's his own person and has to deal with that.
17:33But Glenn can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did, and that's what you can talk about, Glenn.
17:41Okay. So I think it's helpful to put this on the time, on the calendar, because I think without that we're lost.
17:52So I would say, we'll go from the beginning, 91, no, 2, no, 3, no, 4, no, 5, no, 6.
18:00Now, in that time frame you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think you met her until she was 6.
18:09Let's not talk about individuals.
18:10No, no, I'm just saying.
18:12So in that time period, I'm only aware of her. I'm aware of a girl who said, I don't know of any others,
18:27and if there are other people who are making allegations about her, I'm not actually aware of them.
18:31I may have read them, but I don't know.
18:34So I think in the early 90s period, I think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that at least as characterised, it's just false.
18:44It didn't happen as said now. Did it happen? Did he involve himself?
18:51I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother.
18:56I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance, but the people that she suggests were in her orgies
19:08didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99. Did he do orgies with those people?
19:15I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that that happened.
19:23Did she do it with someone else? I don't know.
19:26The stories really start, the allegations really begin with ***, and I think that you have to shift his behaviour, such as it was.
19:36Bar, there was one in California who made an allegation. There was a woman who said that she, and she, I didn't know about.
19:43So I think I would call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using his position to...
19:50I'm starting to interrupt you, but I just want to... I don't want to have you... I don't think it's helpful for us to have you address each allegation.
20:03I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it. I'm not saying you're not telling the truth.
20:08I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said or what they testified to or the rumours in the press.
20:16Push those aside. You were there, and so when you go back to that time period, 1993, 1999, 2001, during that time period, what did you see when it comes to young women in massages?
20:33I saw him receive massages. He had regular masseuses in the 90s, people who were standard and who travelled with him, and I saw that.
20:42He was living in that Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had... I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house.
20:51I would see women, models, or people that he would have come to the house.
21:01I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed.
21:07And then subsequently believed that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his.
21:14Can I interrupt for one second?
21:17Can I just ask some basic top-line questions?
21:20Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse?
21:28Well, he would come in sometimes, and he would say, give her a massage here, or he would grab my... But not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time.
21:37Were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked, or giving him any sexual favors?
21:44I never saw that. I remember.
21:47Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you that they gave sexual favors to Epstein?
21:57Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?
22:05If you had seen that, what would you have done? Would you have left?
22:09I can't even conceive. I can't even conceive of... I can't imagine what I would have done.
22:18All right, I'm sorry.
22:21Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
22:27Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage table.
22:36Did you ever see him masturbate with a naked woman, either giving a massage or reporting to give him a massage?
22:47I don't remember seeing that.
22:51Did you give him massages, by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think...
22:58I certainly have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he would talk, but I was not a masseuse, and I didn't perform massage on him.
23:13Did you, over the years, did you pay the masseuses?
23:21I was typically not my job, but if there was nobody else... Normally, in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money, and in New York, he would do that, because I wouldn't be in New York when he... I mean, I don't remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.
23:38So it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuses, so if there was a masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money?
23:50Mostly I would not. I'm not saying I never did it, because that wouldn't be true, but it was not my job to pay him. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he would have money, or the houseman, and I think some of them would have probably received checks.
24:10And so just picking up on what Mr. Marcus was just asking you, did you participate in sexual activity with him, with a masseuse, like at the same time?
24:25And so the testament... I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, categorically that's not true.
24:34That is categorically not true.
24:38Did you... moving past the... moving into the 2000s?
24:46I just want to say that I have been... I mean, I remember there would be times when he would be getting a massage, and I would be in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that.
24:59But that's not... you're not talking about something that's sexual, you're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.
25:06No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying...
25:07There could be... sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that, so you could say that was sexual in that context.
25:15No, I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating.
25:27Did you... in the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently, when you talked about it yesterday about how your relationship with Mr. Huffington changed and was changing, and you ultimately met somebody else, did you observe any massages or young women giving him massages later on?
26:01So after 2000, 2001 time period?
26:05And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the 90s as far as frequency, his conduct towards them?
26:15I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period.
26:20But I did not see... I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage.
26:36I... at that time he had moved me out of the main house. I had moved into an office with John Alessi, the former atler, under the stairs. So I had an office where I would be that was not part of the house.
26:54If I saw people, and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage, that wouldn't be true either, but if I saw someone, let's say, I wouldn't... I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterise as a child.
27:11Now, specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came, if I did see her, and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she was, as she's described herself now, was very mature and looked in her 20s.
27:32So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes.
27:44Yes. I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterise as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I... I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child, and if I had seen a child, I wouldn't... I'm not sure what I would have done.
28:14Did you... Just talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture, do you... At the time that you were in his life, did you... Was he... Did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or... I don't know what the right way to describe it, but when you say to me, he was getting massages every single day, right?
28:36So young women were everywhere, multiple massages on some days, flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing him, giving him massages. I think it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal. I agree.
28:52We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the time, okay? What was it like at the time? I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image-wise? At the time, what was it like?
29:15I think if he had been creepy, like as you would define and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would have been there. I don't think that they thought of him as creepy, and if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was, for sure.
29:40I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't understand why it was interesting, because to me, it's not interesting. But as he defined it, he found it invigorating, he liked being with younger people. I'm not just younger people, I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music.
30:05I'm just telling you what he was saying to me. To me, I just found it a drag, and difficult and annoying.
30:21I understand. I wasn't the only person present, so this time in the 2000s, you're talking about other people like Sarah Cullen, who was around, who interfaced with him. She was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was his assistant.
30:47That's a fair point, but move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with him, what about his friends and the people that were associated with him? I don't understand how this is an after fact of Mr. Epstein.
31:08So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story, and then later on, he's charged in the Southern District, and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hardworking guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island.
31:25I don't understand how he was able to hide what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue from others.
31:38I don't think he did hide it. That's the answer, and I think that the people around him, myself included obviously, normalized his behavior on a number of fronts.
31:51One, I think it, because it was a self, because so many people saw it, of so many, of such a high caliber down, that never seemed to think it would, well, if they thought it was strange, probably they never said it at the time.
32:12So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now you don't, I understand that it's very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today, but at the time, the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City.
32:42The movie, the show on telly, where this is, that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and men who like it, and a lot of the men that I know like women.
33:00And so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-criminal, but you don't like the lifestyle.
33:18I concur. I agree, especially now, and I own my side of that fence, that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or do something.
33:37But I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And the cultural shift, I think, is a very important part of the analysis here.
33:52Not because I'm trying to justify this, because I'm not, and I'm not trying to, and I absolutely am not here to do the Poor Me program, so please don't misunderstand this.
34:03However, in the 2000s, when this behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the women who were under age 17, 16, I believe, if my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking, if trafficking was even a law.
34:31So you're taking behavior, and I did introduce him to women, I did, but not underage women. I understand that there are allegations, I have read them about myself going to schools, I can categorically tell you that I have never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child.
34:58Well, not for this purpose, I mean, like, my stepchildren, but, okay, sorry.
35:06Okay, thank you. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything. But I did look for masseuses, I did, I went to spas, and if I met somebody who said she was a masseuse, I did not check their credentials.
35:24And of course, if she was attractive, I did introduce it, yes. If I met friends who were interested, he was constantly asking me to meet new and interesting people. I did do that.
35:36At the time, I viewed it as, well, first of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my responsibility, if you were to introduce, because it wasn't just women.
35:49If I met somebody who was interested, like Mary Gellman, or who I thought he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively, but he did. And I did do that.
35:59So, but then, so I want to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked about yesterday more, but a little bit today already, which is everybody that was around him besides you, like his friends.
36:13I accept the lifestyle. I've seen the photos, the fact that everybody's, we're all going to go to the island for a couple days, or flying on a private plane, and there's beautiful women everywhere.
36:23Is there any, I mean, do you, as you sit here today, think that the people around him didn't also, weren't also of the same place where they were also getting massages, where there was sex going on during them, or things like that.
36:44And I'm obviously asking this because that's what everybody has said. And when you just described what it was like, the very next step from that is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend, you know.
36:58And so, and so you, it seems kind of far-fetched to say that yes, that was his lifestyle, but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island, or groups of folks to New Mexico, or whatever, that they're all, you know, going to church in the morning while he's getting a massage.
37:16I hear you. I was there though, and you're talking about very substantial people, and you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in, by the way, not until 2009 is when it really started.
37:36So that narrative that was created, and then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what, basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People have gone and lost their minds for this thing.
37:48I understand that, but the issue is how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like P. Diddy and Redux on TV with Clintons and Trumps. I mean, it's bananas.
38:05And while some of it is real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man, they didn't even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did.
38:20Did he grip? I don't know because I wasn't really in his business, but this is the one man. He's not some, they've made him into this, he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids.
38:43You're not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age of 18. I'm sorry, I'm not going to go there. That's just not what I'm here to, I mean, okay.
38:56But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would suddenly go, oh my gosh, this is like a guy, I'm going to get my body rubbed and have something. The men that went and had a massage and maybe did something sexual?
39:20I'm in. I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. And if it did, I never paid for that, just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that stuff was a three.
39:35I'd be like, okay, TMI, not my business. It's just not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that. But did I think these guys were coming for that? I really don't.
39:50If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters, of which it's extraordinary, some of whom are in your cabinet, who you value as your co-workers and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favours.
40:08A man wants sexual favours, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now, did some, okay, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't see it.
40:21So, when's the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage?
40:48And the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses?
41:10I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I was with Ted and we, I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved in his, you know, loosely with his, the houses and the staff and some of the billing.
41:28And I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epstein offered me a ride and so Ted dropped me off in St. Thomas and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only.
41:43On that visit, I believe, well I know you would have gotten a massage, but I have, there were people there, but I did not, there were women and I was just relieved not to be leaving the next day.
42:03We're going to take a break. The time is 11.31.
0:00We are resuming the audio recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell and the time is
0:10I wanted to follow up about former President Clinton's relationship with Mr. Epstein, not
0:22Can you, we touched on it, but can you just set the, I have a couple questions about it,
0:31What's your understanding of their relationship from what you observed, meaning former President
0:38Clinton and Mr. Epstein?
0:40I saw them sit down and have chats about, I don't know, I wasn't either party or didn't
0:01And I know I would characterize originally anyway Mr. Ebsine's interest in him because obviously he's the former president
0:08But I never saw him, other than that, I saw him be friendly on the plane
0:13But I never, I don't believe, I don't recollect anyway ever seeing them in any other context
0:20I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to the island
0:25I think that was just a
0:28That was a story that
0:30Did. Do you know one way or the other whether their relationship continued
0:37Without you like when you kind of moved on past Mr. Ebsine? I don't believe so
0:42Why do you say that you don't believe so? Because I don't think they had a relationship even when I was there. I was
0:58Terribly well, but I never saw that warmth or that
1:03That warmth, like how you want to characterize it with Mr. Ebsine and so I didn't see that. I didn't see any interest in
1:12President Clinton being interested in Ebsine. He was just a rich guy with a plane
1:18Southern New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Ebsine's house
1:24There was like a there was some sort of painting or picture
1:27Mr. Clinton and then like a blue dress that had been signed
1:30Did you know do you know where he got that picture?
1:35So you never observed that in his
1:43What's that again, I thought it was hideous
1:46And but you had never so you don't know sitting here today where Mr. Ebsine got it the circumstances what you got it
1:55Do you know of any other
2:01Paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein
2:09No, I mean did he maybe get him a gift I don't know I have no knowledge of that and then
2:19Going back to the topic we were talking about before our last break
2:26Wouldn't you you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation that when you first met mr. Epstein and
2:35You ultimately have sex with him that he had
2:41I'll use the word erectile dysfunction, but he had issues having sex
2:46That's what he told me. That's what he told you. Yeah, okay, and
2:50And then over the years he said some time the 90s he started taking testosterone
2:56I don't know if it was in the 90s. I don't remember when he started, but it wasn't he had to patch
3:03Dermal like on his arm. Yes, okay, and then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one
3:09But sometimes he had like well, I'm like, what are you doing? It's like unhealthy. Okay
3:15From what you observed or saw her
3:19Did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years or do you think that whatever he told you whatever issue he told you
3:26He had was fixed. I think was a lie
3:30You think it's lying about what about his erectile dysfunction? Oh, you mean you never you don't think he ever had any issues
3:36You think he just told you that that is what I believe today
3:39Yeah, but given if any of the stories are true, you couldn't have had erectile dysfunction
3:43Priapism for Christ's sake. Well, that's what's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean you're right. I mean and again where we're
3:50we've talked about this a fair amount, but
3:54What did like the stories of what masseuse is?
4:00Overage have said about him is or you know and what he liked what he demanded that they do whether it's watching him
4:12Pinching his nipples, you know kind of things that that are
4:18Do you believe that like do you from what you saw from what you observed from what you did when your relationship with him?
4:27The bulk of what I read he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me actually and
4:34his masturbating that is also consistent with what I knew myself and
4:39I'm going to use a bad word. Please you can use whatever word you need. Yes blowjob. Okay
4:46He like blowjobs that I did observe and he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs, but sex he didn't have so when I
4:55Have read the stories about the allegations of sexual rape. I find that
5:01Challenging because that was not his modus operandi from my perspective
5:06But when you read about
5:09Blowjobs that does that that would be consistent with that would be consistent as would masturbation. Yes
5:20masseuses or women that were either he was in relationship with or
5:27Working with him. Did you tell them? Yes. He likes blowjobs. Yes. He'll masturbate in front of you
5:33Like did you have conversations with any of those with women about?
5:38What mr. Epstein liked or what would make him happy or things like that? I
5:43Don't have any memory of telling anybody about that
5:47I think I may have choked like saying oh my god, you know, like from a sex in the city scene that
5:54But not I never instruct the question you're asking me. Sorry. Let's just be clear
5:58Did I ever instruct anyone how to pressure mr. Epstein your question? No
6:06You said this earlier, but I want to just you kind of said it on your own
6:10I want to ask the question just so I make sure that there's no confusion
6:26The idea that I would have to explain to a woman have to satisfy with the scene is painting it
6:31Because he clearly was able to explain himself it didn't need an interlocutor to explain what he liked
6:37He's been doing this obviously with this some version of their story his whole life and did not require any help from me
6:51So did you did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse?
6:57Regular intercourse not a blowjob. Nothing else where you either walked in or you were in the room
7:01I never saw I've seen have sex with any person and so how about oral sex?
7:13Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex with you were in the room or
7:19Walked in or I never saw anyone go. I've seen a blowjob
7:26But you said earlier you you did see him
7:29masturbating in front of masseuses
7:32I don't know if I said that I don't know. Okay. Sorry
7:35Let me ask you a question. Sorry. No, that's fair. That's fair
7:40I'm sure I saw him in
7:43What some people could define a sexual contact so that somebody could not have their clothes or topless
7:48I would say maybe I I could say that if I saw him
7:53Having a masturbating when someone was like, I don't recall that I don't have a specific memory of it
7:58Okay, but no, I'm not okay. I didn't say that
8:02Okay, I know I understand that's right. I'm not that's okay. So let's try to put words in your mouth
8:08So and you said I think in passing maybe not in passing your story about about
8:19You know whether whether other
8:22people who travel with him would get massages
8:26Or so that would I'm when I say that I'm referring mostly to the island or potentially, New Mexico
8:34Also at the Palm Beach residents or even in New York
8:38do you know to could do you have a list of names in your head or
8:43Names that come to mind of people that you know did get massages when they were with mr. Epstein
8:50No, there's no list. There's no list of people getting massages. I don't have I can barely recall all the people
8:56I can barely recall I
9:00Struggle to recall actual
9:02People that I met and I may have met a long time
9:05I had even forgotten that about mr. Kennedy or we brought it up yesterday
9:10It just came to my mind now, so I don't have and there's no list. There was never a list
9:15there was no or setting none that I ever saw none I ever heard of none that I ever witnessed none that I
9:22There's no list. There's never been a list and you never heard mr. Epstein talk about such a list never
9:28And he never had mr. Epstein
9:35he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or
9:42Had photos of them. I never heard him now. I never heard him ask questions about that. I never heard him
9:49So I've been present many times with masseuses
9:52I never who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody and I'm not saying that they don't not
9:58Just in the quarter. I never heard him ask
10:01Any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend?
10:05It was on the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else for that any details about that massage
10:10Like does he have a funky food? No, and I never heard that he said we weird
10:18Think at one of the bricks today your lawyer may have showed you
10:23Something that just came out in the paper. I think this morning or last night
10:29That you that that is attributed to you
10:33Associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about
10:38Yesterday is did you see that letter?
10:40Is that in fact look like your handwriting or something you wrote?
10:44So I don't remember the letter. Okay, but it does look like my handwriting and it does look like my name
10:49And it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory of writing that and I
10:55Don't remember it at all
10:56Do you remember what the birthday book as they're calling it would it like look like like how it was put together?
11:02I do what do you remember about it? I remember it it was leather bound
11:06I remember it being about yay big it was big
11:10So you're saying it looks like it's like over 12 inches 14 15 inches. Yes
11:14It was like sort of like folio size, I guess or something like that and like this and it was brown and thick
11:22Like this thick, okay, and
11:25So just so you so I understand on heavy stock paper heavy stock paper like 14 inches high
11:33and then around like
11:36What a for a force? Okay?
11:37We had a for because it was done on heavy stock paper
11:41But I can't remember if it was folio size paper or it could have just been a for oh, I see
11:46So it could have just been letter size or it might have been legal size. Yes, heavy stock paper. Yes, and
11:52So the the folks that submitted letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters or did you like?
12:00Glue or something the letters to the stock paper every which way some were given a paper and they did their own thing
12:06Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing
12:10Some I didn't get because they get straight to Epstein and I was just told to put them in like I said
12:17And how was it bound it went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd seen the library
12:26So like like the glue that keeps a regular book a novel that you would read together. It was bound that way
12:32I believe so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't remember. I mean it was professionally down by a professional bookbinder
12:40And then after you presented it or after it was presented to him when he turned 50
12:46Did you see the leather bound book? Did he keep it somewhere in particular? It was in his bookcase in 71st Street
12:54in Manhattan in Manhattan, and did you see it over the years and until you stopped going to the brownstone I
13:03know I did see it because it was right behind his desk and
13:08After I stopped going I don't know what happened to it. And do you know?
13:13Do you remember being told or knowing?
13:16Where the book is now?
13:18No, but I when I received in discovery those pages I assumed that it had been found when
13:28New York or the island was searched and I assumed that the Southern District of New York had it
13:33But I think you said yesterday, but just to go over it again in case you remember anything differently
13:38You recall seeing some of the letters in discovery. I do
13:43But you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book
13:47Start to finish but remember I didn't see all discovery because they were very clever about you know
13:53I didn't receive all discovery period and
13:58In very important items were not given to me at all including witness testimony from grand jury so whether
14:04So you don't know one where the other were whether it was part of discovery
14:08You just know that you didn't get it. It wasn't part of discovery that was given to you, correct
14:14Don't I'm absolutely sure that the Sun District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me and I assumed
14:26That they leaked it because where else would it be?
14:30If that's what it is if it's true, so I've just so I put
14:41I'll say it to you talk a little bit. You worry about it. I
14:45Said to you yesterday
14:48That the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was was exactly what we did
14:53which is to have a conversation about about about mr. Epstein and about you and
15:00think it's it's very challenging to
15:04Talk about everything we talked about and you know
15:08One and a half days or in just a period of hours
15:11So I'll talk to mr. Marcus about kind of what we're gonna do next if anything
15:18There's no and I don't I'm not being
15:22Koi or I just I don't know yet. I don't know so we I have a lot of
15:28We have some work to do
15:31we'll do it with your lawyers to accept we have questions or follow up and
15:38This has been very helpful I I think it's
15:43It was you, you know who kind of said you wanted to talk but but it we gladly accept it
15:49So so I do appreciate you
15:53Being willing to meet with us
15:57And I expect that will that will be in touch
16:05This concludes the recorded
16:09Proffer interview of miss Maxwell the time is 1205 p.m. On Friday, July