Witness N Testimony - Mladic six times

Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. 2 Could you please stand up. You will first read the 3 solemn declaration that the usher will give you. 4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly 5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, 6 and nothing but the truth. 7 8 WITNESS: WITNESS N JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be 9 seated now. The representative of the Registry will 10 now show you a piece of paper with something written on 11 it. It is your name. You will have a look at it and 12 tell us, by saying simply "yes" or "no," if it is 13 indeed your name. 14 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it is 16 your name that is written on this piece of paper. 17 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope 19 you're comfortable here, Witness. 20 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope 22 you've been well treated by the staff here at the 23 Tribunal. 24 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 2 1 try to do the same, Witness N. We will be referring to 2 you as Witness N during your testimony in order to 3 protect you. You will first answer questions that will 4 be put to you by Mr. Harmon. Thank you for coming to 5 the Tribunal. 6 7 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good 8 a afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon to my 9 colleagues. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Examined by Mr. Harmon: Q. Witness N, good afternoon. A. Good afternoon. Q. How old are you? A. I'm 60. Q. Have you lived in the municipality of 16 Srebrenica all your life? 17 18 19 20 A. Yes, I have. Q. Are you a Muslim by faith? A. Yes, I am. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the next two or 21 three questions I'm going to ask the witness could in 22 some way identify him, so if I could go into private 23 session for two or three questions only. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, 25 Mr. Harmon. We will go into private session. Witness: Witness N (Private Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 3 1 [Private session] 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) 7 (redacted) 8 (redacted) 9 (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted) 12 (redacted) 13 (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 (redacted) 16 (redacted) 17 (redacted) 18 (redacted) 19 (redacted) 20 (redacted) 21 (redacted) 22 (redacted) 23 (redacted) 24 (redacted) 25 (redacted) Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 4 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) 7 8 [Open session] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in 9 open session. Mr. Harmon, you may continue. 10 11 MR. HARMON: Thank you. Q. Witness N, after the Srebrenica enclave -- 12 after Srebrenica became -13 14 A. Yes. Q. -- a UN safe area, did you remain in the 15 Bosnian Muslim army or were you released from the army? 16 17 A. I was released. I didn't remain. Q. All right. Now, at the time of the takeover 18 of the enclave by the Bosnian Serb army, were you 19 living -20 21 A. I cannot remember the date. Q. Witness N, let me finish asking my question 22 before you answer, and we will progress very nicely. 23 At the time the enclave was taken over by the Bosnian 24 Serb army, with whom were you living? 25 A. With my wife, my son, my daughter-in-law, a Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 5 1 child, and a daughter. 2 Q. And did you live approximately 15 kilometers 3 from the town of Srebrenica? 4 5 A. Yes, I did. Q. Now, Witness N, I'd like to focus your 6 attention on the 11th of July and ask you to remember 7 back to the 11th of July, and could you tell the Judges 8 what you were doing at the time you learned of the 9 attack on the enclave? 10 A. On the 11th of July I was collecting hay, 11 together with members of my family. 12 Q. Tell the Judges, if you would, Witness N, how 13 you learned about the attack and what you did in 14 response to that information. 15 A. When I got home, I saw that my neighbours had 16 gathered at one point, that they had taken their 17 belongings, whatever they could carry, and I asked, 18 "What is going on?" And they told me that somebody 19 from the civil defence had come and told them to leave 20 the village. Women, children and the elderly were 21 supposed to go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari, and 22 the able-bodied men were supposed to go wherever they 23 could. 24 25 Q. Witness N, did you then go to Potocari? A. Yes, I did. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 6 1 2 Q. And who accompanied you to Potocari? A. My wife went with me, my daughter, my 3 daughter-in-law, and my grandchild. 4 Q. And how long did it take you to get from your 5 village to Potocari on foot? 6 A. It took us around three hours, over the hills 7 to Potocari. 8 Q. Did you arrive in Potocari in the night-time 9 or in the daytime? 10 11 A. In the night-time I arrived in Potocari. Q. Do you remember where you and your family 12 took refuge in Potocari? 13 A. Yes, I do. We took shelter at the Sacmara 14 factory, the bauxite factory, within the compound of 15 the factory. 16 Q. All right, Witness N. Now I'd like to turn 17 your attention to the next day, the 12th of July. And 18 at some point of time on that day did you and did 19 members of your family attempt to board a bus? 20 21 A. Yes, I did. Q. When you were attempting to board a bus, what 22 happened to you, Witness N? 23 A. Serb soldiers were standing next to our 24 column, and they grabbed me by the shoulder and they 25 told me, "Come here, old man. Get out of there." Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 7 1 2 3 Q. And what happened to your family? A. My family went in the direction of the buses. Q. Did they, in fact, board a bus and did they, 4 in fact, arrive safely in the free territory? 5 6 7 A. Yes, they did. Q. Now, where did you go? A. To the left side of the road, and I remained 8 standing there. 9 Q. Were you taken to a particular building after 10 you had been separated? 11 A. After they had gathered a group of people, 15 12 to 20 people, Serb soldiers told us that we could no 13 longer stand there, and they told us to go up the hill 14 to a partly finished house. And this is where we 15 went. We entered the ground floor of that unfinished 16 house and sat down, and they stood guard around us. 17 Q. Can you describe how the soldiers who 18 separated you and how the soldiers who guarded you at 19 this location were dressed? 20 A. They were dressed in green camouflage 21 uniform. 22 Q. Witness N, while you were in the building, 23 were there other Muslim men also detained along with 24 you? 25 A. Yes, there were. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 8 1 Q. Approximately how many were located in the 2 building, in the part of the building where you were 3 being detained? 4 5 A. About 200. Q. At some point during the period of your 6 detention in that building, did you see General Mladic? 7 8 A. Yes, I did. Q. Tell the Judges about that particular 9 encounter with General Mladic. 10 A. One of the Serb soldiers, after quite a few 11 of us had gathered there and after we had asked him why 12 we had been separated, told us, "I don't know. General 13 Mladic is coming now, so you can ask him." 14 And then an officer appeared. He wasn't 15 wearing any hat, any cap. He had balding, receding 16 hair. He emerged from the road and he was accompanied 17 by three or four other Serb soldiers and he came to the 18 door of the house where we were. And he said, "Hello, 19 neighbours," and he asked us if we knew him. Some of 20 us said yes, some of us said no. And then Ratko Mladic 21 said, "Well, those who don't know me now have an 22 opportunity to see me." And then I asked him a 23 question: "General, why are you separating us from our 24 families?" And he said, "I have 180 Serbs captured in 25 Tuzla. Your people do not want to release them, so I Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 9 1 have to have 180 of you so that I could exchange you 2 for them." And then he went back along the same way 3 and we remained sitting there. 4 When night fell, we were ordered by the Serb 5 soldiers who were standing guard around us to take our 6 belongings and to move ahead in front of their 7 soldiers. Those who were sitting outside the house 8 stood up first, and they then went in the direction of 9 Bratunac, across the fields. Those of us who were 10 inside the house followed them, and we covered about 11 200 meters and after that we turned right, to the 12 right, and went along the road leading from Potocari to 13 Bratunac. 14 We got to the road leading to the battery 15 factory, which was in the vicinity of the UNPROFOR 16 base, and two buses stood parked there. And the men 17 who arrived first boarded the last bus, and those who 18 came afterwards boarded the first bus. I got on the 19 first bus, and at that time it was already crowded, and 20 I could see on the right-hand side, on the right side 21 of the bus, I could see General Mladic and several 22 other soldiers around him. 23 When I got on the bus, I saw a red car ahead 24 of the bus, and after everybody had got on the bus, a 25 Serb soldier entered the bus and he went to the Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 10 1 driver. And he was standing there and carrying an 2 automatic rifle. General Mladic approached the bus and 3 he told the driver to shut the door and to follow the 4 red car. The driver shut the door of the bus, and the 5 red car set off and we followed it. And this is how we 6 reached Bratunac. After that we went in the direction 7 of Kravica. 8 Q. Let me interrupt you there for a minute, 9 Witness N. How many men were in the bus along with 10 you? 11 A. As many as they could put on the bus, because 12 we were being told to move backwards to the bus, and 13 this is how we got in. We were all cramped in that 14 bus. 15 Q. Was there a guard on the bus that accompanied 16 you in the direction of Bratunac? 17 A. Yes. There was a soldier who was armed with 18 an automatic rifle. It was a Serb soldier. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you remember how that soldier was dressed? A. In camouflage uniform. Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform? A. Green and dark green. Q. Now, where did you go in that bus? A. We went to Bratunac. Q. And do you know -- did you stop in Bratunac? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 11 1 2 A. Yes, we did. Q. Did you recognise the location where you had 3 stopped? 4 A. I recognised the location after we had passed 5 by a school building. After that we stopped in front 6 of an abandoned warehouse. 7 Q. What happened when you stopped in front of 8 that abandoned warehouse? 9 A. We found a group of Serb soldiers there, and 10 one of them approached the bus, the driver opened the 11 door of the bus, and he ordered us out of the bus and 12 he told us to march in front of the Serb soldiers. 13 They had made a column, and we were marching in front 14 of them, and this is how we entered the warehouse. 15 Q. Approximately how many Serb soldiers were 16 waiting for the arrival of your bus? 17 18 A. Between 10 and 15. Q. Do you have any recollection as to how those 19 soldiers were dressed? 20 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms as 21 well. 22 Q. Do you remember the colour, or were you able 23 to distinguish the colour of those uniforms? 24 A. Again, green and dark green camouflage 25 uniforms. This is how we called them: camouflage Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 12 1 uniforms. 2 Q. Did you and did all of the men who were on 3 the bus in which you travelled get off the bus and go 4 into the warehouse? 5 6 A. Yes, they did. Q. And what did you do when you got inside the 7 warehouse building? 8 9 A. We sat down. Q. What kind of a room was it that you sat down 10 in? 11 A. It was off-white in colour. It had not been 12 properly maintained, that warehouse. 13 Q. Do you remember the approximate dimensions of 14 the room where you and the other men sat down? 15 A. I think that it was about 15 meters long and 16 7 to 8 meters wide. 17 Q. Now, after you and the men from your bus 18 entered that room in the warehouse, did other Muslim 19 men continue to arrive and fill the room? 20 21 A. Yes, they did. Q. Can you describe eventually how full that 22 room was with Muslim men? 23 A. After the last group had been brought in, we 24 were ordered to stand up and to move to the back, so 25 that the last group who was outside could also get in. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 13 1 So we moved to the back as far as we could, and then 2 the last group entered the warehouse and then we were 3 ordered to sit down. But there was no longer enough 4 room for everyone to sit down, so somebody -- some 5 people sat down and others sat on their laps. 6 Q. Witness N, do you remember approximately what 7 time of the evening it was when you arrived at this 8 particular warehouse on the 12th of July? 9 10 A. It could have been about 10.00 at night. Q. Now, could you tell the Judges your 11 experiences that you had and what you observed 12 happening to the other Muslim men who were in that room 13 that particular night and the early morning hours that 14 followed? 15 A. When we entered, there wasn't enough room, 16 and we complained that we would suffocate. And then 17 the Serb soldiers shot over our heads and shouted, 18 "Keep silent or we'll kill you all," and then we fell 19 silent. Then someone in the area where we had entered 20 said, "You 12 have to carry out the assignment given to 21 you. Do you understand that?" And he was speaking in 22 a sharp tone. And then a group said, "Yes, sir," as 23 one. And then Serb soldiers came with flashlights and 24 they lighted us up. And then they asked where people 25 were from, the people from Glogova, people from Cerska, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 14 1 people from Bratunac, and people answered. And then 2 they said, "The people from Glogova get up." One man 3 got up. The Serb soldiers said, "Come out here." He 4 left the warehouse to the left, the direction through 5 which we had entered the warehouse. We could hear 6 blunt blows and his screams and moans. When all this 7 stopped, again they came back with their flashlights, 8 calling out people from various places. Nobody 9 admitted to being from those places, so then the 10 flashlight was pointed at anyone at random, and that 11 person had to get up and go out. That is how they 12 continued to kill people. 13 Sometimes they would bring somebody back, 14 badly beaten up, carrying them by the arms. They 15 brought them to the doorway, and then a third one would 16 push him into the room, and then the people were 17 carrying -- that would carry this person from one hand 18 to another. And this went on until the morning. 19 In the morning they stopped taking people 20 out. The people holding the dead complained that they 21 couldn't stand it any longer, and they wanted to have 22 them carried out. And so they allowed it and they let 23 the people take out the dead bodies. Two people would 24 take out the body and carry it outside the hall, behind 25 the warehouse. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 15 1 Q. Witness, let me stop you right there and ask 2 you some questions, some additional questions about 3 that particular night in the early morning hours. Were 4 you able to hear the soldiers who were guarding you 5 talk amongst themselves? 6 A. I was. They introduced themselves. They 7 asked us, "Do you know who we are, whose soldiers we 8 are?" We kept quiet; we didn't reply. And then they 9 would hit each other on the soldier and say, "This one 10 is an Arkanovac," and he would say yes. And then 11 another one would say he belonged to the wolves, Drina 12 Wolves, and he would say yes. 13 Q. Now, during the night, in the early morning 14 hours of the following morning, were you given any 15 food? Were you given any water? 16 A. When they carried out the dead, we heard two 17 trucks approaching the warehouse. We thought that they 18 would be transporting us somewhere; however, a Serb 19 soldier came to the doorway and said, "I need 10 20 volunteers, hard-working ones and younger ones, to do 21 something for us." We knew immediately that they would 22 be loading the bodies. 23 Q. Now, Witness N, let me just ask you to answer 24 the question that I ask, and that is: Did you receive 25 any water or did you receive any food the night of the Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 16 1 12th and the morning hours of the 13th? 2 A. We didn't receive anything until the 3 morning. 4 Q. Now, I interrupted you, and you were telling 5 us about ten men who had been taken out. Would you 6 please continue with your observations and what you 7 recall about that incident. 8 A. Then they picked ten men, pointing them out 9 with their fingers. Ten of them went out. There was 10 silence for a while. While we could hear those motor 11 vehicles departing from the warehouse, these ten men of 12 ours never reappeared amongst us again. 13 Q. Were toilet facilities available to you and 14 the other men who were being detained in the warehouse? 15 A. Then they allowed us to go to the toilet and 16 they showed us, as you go out of the warehouse, on the 17 right-hand side, there was a room to be used as a 18 toilet. So we went out, and I went out too. 19 As I was coming from the toilet, I saw them 20 taking one out of the line of men and taking him to the 21 left. I saw two men standing on the left-hand side. 22 There were Serb soldiers, two on the left, three on the 23 right, and there was one facing the warehouse with an 24 automatic rifle in his hand and shouting, "Come to me." 25 And as he went toward him, he had stopped for a Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 17 1 while, and this one kept saying, "Come here." 2 And then on the left hand, the soldier 3 standing to the left hit him with an iron rod on the 4 head. And the Serb soldier standing on the right had a 5 hatchet, and hit him on the back with the blade of the 6 hatchet. 7 I entered the big room, but they continued 8 taking men out and killing them. And this went on 9 until the afternoon. 10 Q. Now, when you say "they took men out" and 11 continued killing them, to whom are you referring? 12 13 A. Serb soldiers. I mean Serb soldiers. Q. Were they dressed in the same fashion that 14 you've described earlier or were they dressed in a 15 different fashion? 16 17 A. They were dressed in the same fashion. Q. Now, what time in the afternoon of the 13th 18 did the killing stop? 19 A. About 4.00 in the afternoon, about 1600 20 hours. 21 22 Q. What happened then? A. Then, again, we heard two motor vehicles 23 approaching the warehouse. Again, one of the Serb 24 soldiers asked for ten men to go out to do something 25 for them. Nobody volunteered, so he selected ten men, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 18 1 who went out. 2 There was silence for a while, and then again 3 we heard the engines being turned on and the vehicles 4 going away. Those ten men never returned to the 5 warehouse either. 6 7 Q. What happened then, Witness N? A. Then they stopped killing and they said 8 General Mladic is coming now. And he appeared in the 9 doorway, a general of the Serb army, Ratko Mladic. We 10 asked him, "Why are you keeping us here? Why are you 11 choking us here? Why don't you take us some place?" 12 He said, "I haven't managed to negotiate your 13 exchange earlier. We have agreed now, and you will all 14 be exchanged and you're going to Kalesija to be 15 exchanged. But let one of your men count how many you 16 are so that I can determine how many buses I need." 17 One of our men got up, and when he counted 18 us, he said to Ratko Mladic that there were 296 of us. 19 He said, "Sit down and vehicles will be 20 coming to transport you to Kalesija." 21 Q. Now there were 296 men reported to be in the 22 room, in the warehouse where you were located? 23 24 A. Yes, yes. Q. To your knowledge, were there other Muslim 25 men located in other parts of the warehouse, if you Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 19 1 know? 2 A. When they came back, those of them who had 3 taken the dead out of the warehouse, they came back in 4 tears. We asked them, "What's wrong?" And they said, 5 "It's not only that they're killing here, but they're 6 killing somewhere else. They're bringing our men; our 7 men are bringing them and putting them on the same 8 pile." 9 I heard this from the man who had taken out 10 the dead bodies from our warehouse. 11 Q. And when you say the men who had taken out 12 the dead bodies from your warehouse room, you're 13 talking about the five dead Muslims who had been -14 A. Yes, yes, the five dead Muslims that ten of 15 our men carried out. 16 Q. And so what is your conclusion, Witness N, 17 based on the conversations that you had with the men 18 who had taken out the dead and returned? Is it your 19 conclusion that there were other Muslim men being 20 detained in the same warehouse but at different parts 21 of the warehouse? 22 A. That was our conclusion, that somewhere in 23 the immediate vicinity there must have been other 24 Muslim men that were being killed. 25 Q. Now, at some point in time on the 13th, did Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 20 1 some buses and trucks arrive at the warehouse to 2 transport you and other Muslim men to another location? 3 A. Yes. Six buses arrived and then the Serb 4 soldiers gave orders that we should get up and form a 5 line one by one, because vehicles had come to transport 6 us. We got up. 7 When I got out, I saw six buses standing in 8 the immediate vicinity. I could recognise Bauxite 9 Milici and Centrotrans Sarajevo; those were the 10 markings on the buses. I didn't recognise the other 11 markings. 12 Q. Now, you say Bauxite Milici. Is Milici down 13 in the Srebrenica municipality or in a different 14 municipality? 15 A. It is a small town within the territory of 16 Vlasenica municipality. 17 Q. And I believe you also said there was another 18 location, another mark on the bus that you noticed. 19 What was the other mark that you noticed? 20 21 A. Centrotrans, from Sarajevo. Q. All right. Now, do you know the approximate 22 time that these buses arrived on the 13th? 23 24 25 A. It was an hour before nightfall. Q. Did you get on one of those buses? A. I did. I got on to a bus with Centrotrans Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 21 1 Sarajevo written on it. 2 Q. How many men besides yourself got on this 3 Centrotrans bus? 4 A. There were quite a number standing who didn't 5 have enough seats to sit down, but I didn't count them. 6 Q. So all the seats were filled on the bus and 7 there were people standing in the aisle; is that 8 correct? 9 10 A. Yes, yes. Q. Now, of the 296 men who were in the room of 11 the warehouse where you were located, were you able to 12 estimate the ages, the range of ages of the men who 13 were in that room? 14 A. They were up to 60 and some were over 60. 15 There was some who could hardly move with a stick. 16 Q. Do you have an estimate as to the youngest 17 person in the room, in your room? 18 A. When we were coming out of the room into the 19 bus, I didn't see any young people. 20 21 22 Q. Now, did you leave Bratunac? A. We did. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have 23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/E/1 placed on the ELMO. 24 Q. I'm going to ask you to indicate on this map, 25 Witness N, for the benefit of the Judges, the direction Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 22 1 that you travelled after you left Bratunac. There is a 2 pointer -- there should be a pointer in front of you. 3 Do you see the town of Bratunac? 4 A. Yes, I do. I do. I see it. Here it is 5 [indicates]. 6 Q. Could you use your pointer and show the 7 Judges your route of travel after you left Bratunac. 8 A. From Bratunac, we went towards Serbia 9 [indicates]. We reached the Drina River. There's a 10 bridge leading to Serbia. We didn't cross that 11 bridge. So we went to the left, towards Zvornik 12 [indicates]. We reached Zvornik, and then we went on 13 to Karakaj. When we got to Karakaj, we turned left, 14 when we got to a school and a large hall attached to 15 the school. 16 Q. Now, let me stop you there for just a minute, 17 Witness N. 18 MR. HARMON: For the record, on Prosecutor's 19 Exhibit 1/E/1, the witness pointed to a road that goes 20 from Bratunac toward the Drina River, in a direction to 21 the right side of the exhibit, and then follows the 22 course of the river up through Zvornik to a town which 23 is marked on the map, called Karakaj. Then the witness 24 indicated that the bus turned left on a road that is 25 marked, and there's a town on that which I, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 23 1 unfortunately, can't read off of the ELMO, but it looks 2 to me like it begins with the letter "P." 3 Q. Witness N, can you see the -- it looks like 4 Petkovci, so that is -5 6 A. Petkovci. Q. -- the route that the witness travelled. 7 Thank you, Witness N. 8 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with that 9 exhibit. 10 Q. How long did it take you from the time you 11 left Bratunac to the time you got to this destination 12 up near Petkovci, near this school? 13 14 A. Five hours. Q. Were there interruptions along the journey, 15 along the route? 16 17 A. Yes, there were several breaks. Q. Do you know -- strike that. Were you able to 18 look around in your bus and see how many vehicles in 19 your convoy were going north towards Zvornik? 20 21 A. No, I could only see the bus in front of me. Q. Now, on your bus, was there a guard or more 22 than one guard? 23 A. There were; one, only one guard, armed with 24 an automatic rifle, wearing a camouflage uniform. 25 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Did you see any Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 24 1 other buses that -- strike that. The vehicle that you 2 saw in front of you, was it a bus or a truck? 3 4 A. A bus. Q. Were you able to see whether that bus was -- 5 how many people were in that bus? 6 A. One could see through the windows that there 7 was a whole line of people standing in the aisle, that 8 there wasn't enough room for everyone to sit down. 9 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have that Exhibit 10 1/E/1 placed back on the ELMO, please, because I may 11 have indicated incorrectly the direction. 12 Q. What I'd like you to do, please, Witness N, 13 again take that pointer and -- take your pointer and 14 could you tell me when you got to the town of Karakaj. 15 There appear on that diagram to be two roads; one below 16 the town of Karakaj and one directly above the town of 17 Karakaj. 18 Do you know which of those two roads you took 19 or do you merely recall turning left near the town of 20 Karakaj? 21 A. I just remember that we turned left. It was 22 night-time, and the windows of the buses were not very 23 clean, so one couldn't know, and I'm not very familiar 24 with the area either. 25 MR. HARMON: Thank you, very much. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 25 1 Mr. President, we normally break at this time. I'm 2 prepared to continue or to take a break at this time. 3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I 4 think we need to adjourn. It is time. Shall we 5 adjourn. 6 7 Yes, Mr. Visnjic, you have something to say? MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 8 it is not linked to this witness, but if you have 9 decided that we should adjourn -- but reviewing the 10 transcript on page 94 line 7, the last answer given by 11 the previous witness, Witness M, and his last answer to 12 Judge Wald's question. 13 I think during the translation, and I must 14 say that we all found the witness rather hard to 15 follow, I think that during the translation, an error 16 was made, so that the answer of that witness differs 17 from the meaning in the transcript. 18 I intervened with the interpreters, and they 19 will probably be correcting the transcript. So I wish 20 to make this formal objection so that it shall be 21 registered. 22 23 [Trial Chamber confers] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 24 Mr. Visnjic, thank you very much for drawing our 25 attention to this problem. What we are going to do is Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 26 1 that we are going to send the audio and visual tape to 2 the translation section. The translation section will 3 check, and if the translation is not correct, doesn't 4 correspond to the original, then the transcript will be 5 corrected. 6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very 7 much, Your Honour. 8 9 too. 10 Before adjourning, Mr. Harmon, in order to JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 11 see how we are going to work until the end of the week, 12 where do we stand in relation to the witnesses here 13 present in The Hague. Are we going to have a chance to 14 hear them? Are we running the risk of leaving a 15 witness from the end of the week until I don't know 16 when we meet again. So could you give us some 17 information, Mr. Harmon? 18 MR. HARMON: We anticipate completing the 19 testimonies of the witnesses, of all of the witnesses 20 who are here at The Hague, by Friday. In fact, we may 21 end up short of time in which case, we are prepared to 22 present different types of evidence to the Chamber to 23 complete the trial day. 24 25 We have three witnesses remaining. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 27 1 What I would like to avoid is to have witnesses whom we 2 have to send back because we can't hear them or to have 3 a witness who would have to be half finished. 4 As it is 2.30, if you have other evidence in 5 addition to witnesses, it would be a good idea to 6 present that evidence to make use of the time. 7 As you know, we have a Status Conference 8 tomorrow at quarter past two. Perhaps I need to warn 9 the interpreters that we may be working a quarter of an 10 hour longer tomorrow. That's enough for today. 11 Witness N, you will stay here. We will be 12 continuing your testimony tomorrow. I hope you will 13 have a restful evening. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 2 3 4 Thursday, 13th April 2000 [Open session] --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m. [The accused entered court] A. Thank you Your Honour. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 28 5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 6 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, 7 technicians; good morning to our interpreters, our 8 legal clerks; good morning, counsel for the 9 Prosecution, counsel for the Defence; good morning, 10 General Krstic. We will resume our hearing in the 11 Krstic case. The appearances are the same, for the 12 record. And if I could have the witness brought into 13 the courtroom, please. I believe it's still Witness N. 14 MR. HARMON: Yes. He's a protected witness, 15 and we'll have to draw the blinds. 16 Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours; 17 good morning, counsel. 18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the 19 public, let me just say that the blinds will be pulled 20 down while the witness is being brought in, and after 21 that they will be pulled up again. 22 23 [The witness entered court] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good 24 morning, Witness N. Can you hear me? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good morning. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 29 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you 2 had a restful night? Did you sleep well? 3 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be 5 seated now. 6 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me just 8 remind you that you are still under an oath and that 9 you will continue answering questions that will be put 10 to you by Mr. Harmon. Thank you. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed] [Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd] Q. Good morning, Witness N. A. Good morning. Q. When we concluded your testimony yesterday, 19 you were describing your journey from a warehouse in 20 Bratunac to a school somewhere in the area of Zvornik, 21 and you had left the warehouse sometime on the 13th of 22 July; is that correct? 23 24 A. Yes, it is. Q. Now, approximately what time did you arrive 25 at the school that was located in the Zvornik area? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 30 1 2 A. It was past midnight. Q. So you arrived in the early morning, then, of 3 the 14th of July? 4 5 6 7 A. Yes. Q. Had you ever been to that school before? A. No, I had not. Q. Witness N, would you tell the Judges what 8 happened once you arrived at the school. 9 A. Once we arrived in the schoolyard, the buses 10 stopped and the Serb soldiers approached the buses. 11 The buses opened -- the doors of the buses opened and 12 people started coming out in columns. They were going 13 in the direction of a gym, of a gymnasium, and they 14 were getting into that gym. At that moment, the doors 15 of my bus opened as well and we got out, and we passed 16 by some Serb soldiers and went in the direction of the 17 gym, and we entered the gym and sat down. 18 Q. Now, when you got off the bus, Witness N, 19 approximately how many Bosnian Serb soldiers did you 20 see? 21 22 A. Between 15 and 20, 15 to 20 soldiers. Q. And do you recall how those soldiers were 23 dressed? 24 25 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniform. Q. Do you remember the colour of the Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 31 1 camouflage? Was it a police camouflage uniform or was 2 it an army camouflage uniform? 3 4 5 A. An army camouflage uniform. Q. Now, you said you went into a gym. MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's 6 Exhibit -7 8 9 A. Yes. MR. HARMON: -- 19/5 placed on the ELMO. Q. Witness N, I'm going to show you a 10 photograph, an interior photograph of a gymnasium, and 11 I'm going to ask you if you can identify this 12 particular photograph. The usher will place it on the 13 ELMO and you'll be able to see it on the monitor in 14 front of you. 15 MR. HARMON: It's not very visible on the 16 monitor. Perhaps, Mr. Usher, if you could show this 17 photograph to the witness first and then we can place 18 it on the monitor. 19 Q. Witness N, is this the gymnasium where you 20 and the other men were brought in that school area? 21 22 23 A. Yes, it is. Q. All right. Now -MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've 24 concluded with that exhibit. 25 Q. After you arrived and the people on your bus Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 32 1 and the people in your convoy, did other Muslim men 2 continue to arrive and continue to enter into the 3 gymnasium? 4 A. Yes, they did, but when it dawned, after it 5 had dawned, the groups were still being brought in and 6 they were taken into the gymnasium as well. This 7 lasted until I don't remember what time, but after 8 that, at one point General Mladic appeared at the door, 9 and because we were very crowded in that gymnasium and 10 because we were not given any bread or water, we cried 11 out, all in one voice, "Why are you torturing us 12 here?" And then he said, "Well, your government does 13 not want you, and I have to take care of you." One 14 group of you will be taken to Kladusa, to Fikret Abdic, 15 and one group will be transported to Bijeljina. You 16 will also be given water when you get out of the gym. 17 He left, and then later -18 Q. Let me interrupt you right there for just a 19 second. Can you estimate the number of men who were in 20 the gym with you when the gym was at its fullest 21 capacity? 22 23 A. About 2.500. Q. Now, at any point in time while you were in 24 that gymnasium, did Bosnian Serb soldiers come into the 25 gymnasium and shoot their weapons, shoot their guns? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 33 1 A. Yes, they did. We would from time to time 2 start shouting, because we couldn't take it anymore. 3 We were suffocating. There was no air, there was no 4 water. And then we would start shouting and they would 5 then open fire and shoot above our heads. And then 6 everything would be silent for a while and they would 7 say, "Just keep quiet, else you will all be shot." 8 Q. Now, Witness N, continue describing what 9 occurred to you and to the other men at that gymnasium, 10 please. 11 A. Then the Bosnian Serbs who were standing 12 guard issued some orders. There was a group of them 13 standing to the left of the door, of the main door, and 14 they ordered men to get out of the gymnasium through 15 that door. They said that they would be taken 16 somewhere. And the Bosnian Serb soldiers then brought 17 some stripes of cloth with which they blindfolded us, 18 and they gave some people some water and left 19 somewhere. A column would march for a while and then 20 it would stop, and this would last for a couple of 21 minutes and then another column would be leaving the 22 gymnasium after that. 23 When people starting getting out, we heard 24 somewhere, coming from the distance, bursts of 25 gunfire. Then it would stop, then everything would be Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 34 1 quiet for a while, and after a while we would hear 2 rifles being fired again, again at the same spot. And 3 some elderly people said at that point, "They're taking 4 everyone. They're killing everyone." And in the 5 evening hours, between 7.00, 7.30 p.m., it was my turn 6 to leave the gymnasium, together with some other 7 people. I drank some water, and I was blindfolded, and 8 I boarded a small truck which is called tamic. 9 After it got full, it set out, and a red 10 vehicle was following the truck and there was one 11 soldier with an automatic rifle there and he was 12 threatening us. He didn't let us speak. He said, "I 13 will kill you all." 14 We did not travel for very long. At one 15 point we turned off the road and went into a field, 16 where we saw a lot of dead people. The TAM truck 17 stopped and two Serb soldiers approached the truck. 18 They opened the backside of the truck and they ordered 19 us to get out. And I was the last one in the truck, so 20 I was taken out first. And they showed me where I was 21 supposed to stand, next to some dead bodies. And 22 everybody was lined up like that, in several rows, with 23 their backs facing them. 24 The tamic left immediately, and immediately 25 after it had left, we heard automatic rifles being Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 35 1 fired. Everybody fell down at that point, and those 2 who were not killed, who were still giving some signs 3 of life, were shot at individually, were killed 4 individually. I didn't dare move. I was just looking 5 downwards towards the ground. And when the TAM truck 6 left, when it moved, I turned around and I realised 7 that it was taking people to another location. It was 8 the same kind of truck, the same TAM truck, and it was 9 also followed by a red car. 10 And after a while the red car came back, and 11 a little later this same TAM truck came to my location 12 and it brought people to our location again, some 10 to 13 15 meters away from me. Men were again being ordered 14 out of the truck and taken out. And the red car also 15 stopped and Ratko Mladic got out of the car, together 16 with the soldiers who were accompanying him, and they 17 were watching people being taken out of the TAM truck 18 and being lined up and executed. 19 After they had finished their job, Ratko 20 Mladic sat down in the same red car and he went back in 21 the direction of the gymnasium. 22 They continued bringing people and killing 23 people and this lasted until dusk. Behind my back 24 there was an excavator who was digging a mass grave. 25 Q. Now, let me interrupt you right there for a Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 36 1 minute, Witness N. I want to clarify a couple of 2 points in your testimony. 3 You said when you left the school, a 4 blindfold was put over your eyes, and you testified 5 when you were in the truck in route to the execution 6 field, you could see a red car that was following you. 7 How was it, if you were blindfolded, you could see a 8 red car that was following you? 9 A. When I was blindfolded, immediately when they 10 had blindfolded me, I moved the blindfold a little bit 11 upwards so that I could see. (redacted) 12 (redacted) 13 (redacted). But they weren't paying much 14 attention to whether people were taking off their 15 blindfolds or not. They were simply telling us not to 16 talk and that was all. 17 Q. Now, Witness N, can you describe the soldiers 18 who were the executioners? How were they dressed; do 19 you remember? 20 A. Yes, I remember. They were dressed in dark 21 green camouflage uniforms. 22 Q. All right. Let's carry on with your account 23 of the events on the 14th of July. You said, before I 24 interrupted you, that you had seen some kind of 25 mechanical equipment doing something. Could you tell Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 37 1 the Judges what you saw and what you saw it doing. 2 A. I saw an excavator. It was behind my back. 3 It had a bucket, a kind of shovel. And it's a kind of 4 machine that can both dig into the earth and also 5 transport various material. 6 Q. Now, when you saw that excavator, was it dark 7 outside or was it light? 8 9 A. It was daylight. Q. Okay. And how long did that excavator work 10 in your vicinity? 11 A. It worked until nightfall. When it became 12 dark, another excavator arrived and they switched on 13 their headlights. 14 At that point, they were bringing bodies to 15 one location only, and they were killing people at that 16 location and the lights of the excavators were on and 17 they kept killing men. And this continued until they 18 finished off everyone. And when the last TAM truck 19 arrived, somebody said, "That's it, there's no one 20 left." One of the Serb soldiers asked, "Are we going 21 back with you?" And this other man replied, "No, 22 you're not going back with me. Maybe there will be 23 another truck coming back to pick you up, and then you 24 will go back. If it doesn't show up, then you will 25 have to stand guard all night." Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 38 1 Then after the truck had left, they remained 2 standing and smoking next to the excavator. After 3 that, a similar truck arrived with its lights on and I 4 could hear people talk, but I didn't make out what they 5 were saying. 6 Then they switched off their lights, and we 7 could see well, because it was moonlight. Then 8 everybody sat down in the excavator and the truck and 9 they went in the direction of the gymnasium. 10 After they had left, I stood up and I started 11 shouting. I wanted to see if there was anyone alive so 12 we could leave together. 13 Q. Before we get to that part of your testimony, 14 do I understand your testimony correctly, then, that 15 while the excavators were working and while it was 16 dark, additional men, Muslim men were being brought to 17 the execution site and were being executed in the front 18 of the lights of these excavators? 19 20 21 A. Yes. Q. Now, let me show you two exhibits. MR. HARMON: And before I show you these 22 exhibits, Mr. Dubuisson, it will be Prosecutor's 23 Exhibit 20/5 and 20/8. 24 Q. Immediately behind the execution field where 25 the men had been killed, can you describe the terrain? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 39 1 2 MR. HARMON: Not yet, Mr. Usher. Q. Can you describe the terrain, Witness N. Was 3 it level, was it -- did it have other types of physical 4 features? 5 A. It was more or less level, flat; not 6 completely, but almost. But where the excavator was 7 digging, there was a slope, a little hill. There 8 wasn't much grass on it. It was a kind of field and it 9 was not completely flat. 10 11 Q. And behind the grass field, what was there? A. There was a small forest above the area where 12 the excavator was working, up the hill, up the slope, a 13 small forest. 14 Q. Now, while you were at the execution site, 15 did you notice any unique kind of physical structure 16 that was in the area? 17 A. I noticed a kind of iron fence, iron 18 railing. I don't know whether it was part of a bridge 19 or whether it was just a fence that was there as a kind 20 of protection. This is what I noticed. 21 Q. Now, I've shown you Prosecutor's Exhibit 22 20/5. 23 MR. HARMON: And if you could put that on the 24 ELMO, please, Mr. Usher. 25 Q. You've had an opportunity to see this; is Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 40 1 that correct, Witness N? 2 A. Yes, I have. I saw the same fence there in 3 the immediate vicinity of the grave where the execution 4 site was. 5 MR. HARMON: Now could you next place 6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8 on the ELMO. Thank you. 7 Q. Do you see that same fence in Prosecutor's 8 Exhibit 20/8? 9 10 11 12 A. Yes, I do. Q. Can you point it out, please? A. [Indicates]. MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the 13 small rail above the tunnel leading underneath the 14 railroad tracks. 15 Q. Thank you, Witness N. Now, therefore, does 16 this location that's depicted in this photograph appear 17 to you to be the same location where you were at the 18 time of the executions? 19 A. Yes, I think it's the same location where the 20 executions took place. 21 Q. Now, Witness N, I interrupted you when you 22 had testified that you had stood up after everybody had 23 left. What happened then? 24 A. I called out is there anyone alive for us to 25 go? And one nearby answered back and said he was Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 41 1 alive. He got up, and we left that location and 2 crossed the pastures and turned left uphill into a wood 3 there. 4 In the wood, we sat down to have a rest. And 5 then we heard shots at the same spot. The man with me 6 said, "There they are. They've come back again." And 7 I said "Let them." Then we saw another shot closer to 8 us. And then he said, "They must have seen our traces 9 through the high grass," because there was moonlight. 10 As we felt them coming after us, we turned to 11 the right and entered a thick thicket on our stomachs. 12 They were following us, they shot into the woods, and 13 then we wondered where we should go. And then we 14 thought let's go to the railway track and retrace our 15 steps. The railway track was immediately nearby. 16 So when they went back to the place where 17 they started shooting, we got up and went through the 18 woods towards Tuzla. 19 So the next day, when it dawned, another man 20 appeared on the hill who had been there at the 21 execution site like us. He joined us and continued 22 with us and we crossed into free territory at Nezvuk. 23 24 Q. What date was that? A. The date was the 19th. I think it was a 25 Wednesday. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Examined by Mr. Harmon Page 42 1 Q. Now, one last question: When you stood up, 2 were you able to look around the execution field and 3 were you able to estimate the number of bodies that 4 were laying in that field? 5 A. It seemed to us that there were more than we 6 had seen in the gym. That's what it looked like to us. 7 Q. All right. Witness N, I've concluded my 8 examination of you. 9 10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President -Q. Now it's the time for the Defence lawyers to 11 examine you, Witness N. Thank you very much. 12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 13 Mr. Harmon. 14 Witness N, you are now going to answer 15 questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic, the Defence 16 counsel for Mr. Krstic. 17 18 19 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic: MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, 20 and good morning Your Honours; my learned friends from 21 the Prosecution. 22 23 24 Q. Good morning, Witness. A. Good morning, Mr. Lawyer. Q. When you reached the warehouse in Bratunac on 25 the 12th of July, people started to be taken out in the Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 43 1 evening, Muslims started to be taken out? 2 3 4 5 A. Yes. Q. They took out Hamdija Efendic? A. No, Hamed Efendic. Q. Yes, I'm sorry, Hamed. Hamed Efendic was the 6 president of the Party of Democratic Action of 7 Srebrenica? 8 9 A. Yes. Q. Did they look for him by name and take him 10 out because he was the president? 11 A. They brought him there separately, and they 12 called him out specifically to come out, but they 13 didn't say why he was being taken out, whether it was 14 because he was the president or not. 15 Q. Was it your conclusion that that was the 16 reason why they took him out? 17 18 19 A. I don't know. Q. Do you know what happened to Hamed? A. A rifle shot was heard and one of those, your 20 Serb soldiers said, "He's killed, he's finished. Don't 21 shoot again." 22 Q. And the others that were taken out were 23 called out by their first and last names? 24 25 A. Yes. Q. Or were they called out by the village they Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 44 1 came from? 2 3 4 5 A. Yes. Q. So they were looking for particular people? A. Yes, from particular places. Q. They looked for Ibran Mustafic as well, 6 didn't they? 7 8 A. Yes. Q. Ibran Mustafic was politically very active, I 9 think. He was president of the municipality of 10 Srebrenica? 11 12 A. Yes. Q. In one of your earlier statements, you said 13 that they killed Ibran Mustafic and that he didn't come 14 back -15 A. That he didn't come back. What happened to 16 him, there was a kind of argument heard between him and 17 the Serb guards. He didn't come back into the gym. 18 What happened, I don't know. 19 Q. You also said that you heard from soldiers 20 who were outside, the words "he's finished"? 21 22 A. Hamed, yes. Q. Witness N, I should like to show you the 23 statement you gave to the State Security Service in 24 Tuzla on the 25th of July, 1995. 25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 45 1 Exhibit D-17. 2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For Your 3 Honours, it is page two which has been highlighted, the 4 second sentence in the highlighted passage. 5 6 7 Q. Witness N, this is your statement, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. The second sentence in the highlighted part 8 in the first paragraph says, "After that, they called 9 out Ibran Mustafic, son of Mujo, former head of 10 Srebrenica municipality and deputy in the BH 11 parliament, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and 12 killed him with a blunt object. I did not see them 13 beat him, but I heard the blows and his cries and a 14 Chetnik who said, 'He's finished.'" 15 Did you make that statement to the State 16 Security Service? 17 A. Well, certainly I can't remember, but I'm not 18 denying that I said that as well, because if that is 19 what I said, that is what they said; I didn't add or 20 detract from anything that I personally did not see or 21 hear. 22 23 24 Q. But Ibran Mustafic is alive? A. Yes. Q. Witness N, during those days, you saw General 25 Mladic on a number of occasions, you even spoke to him; Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 46 1 I could put it that way. 2 3 A. Yes. Only once I asked him a question. Q. One of those questions was on the 13th of 4 July, 1995, in the warehouse, after you had spent the 5 night in the warehouse in Bratunac, in the morning, 6 when you addressed him with the words: "What are you 7 doing with us? Why are you killing people? Why are 8 you not taking us to be exchanged?" This is also from 9 the same statement that you made, the second paragraph 10 of the English version. 11 MR. PETRUSIC [Interpretation] And both Your 12 Honours and the Prosecutor have this document. 13 Q. What was General Mladic's reply to your 14 statement that people were being killed? 15 A. He said, "You will no longer be killed. It 16 was not possible to come to an agreement earlier on. 17 If that agreement had been reached, this wouldn't have 18 happened. We have come to an agreement now. You're 19 going to Kalisija. Count yourselves so that I can 20 designate transportation." 21 22 23 Q. Did he ask you who was killing men? A. No. Q. In your further contacts, did you tell him 24 that this was happening? 25 A. No, I did not. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 47 1 Q. When they -- I may be wrong, but I think it 2 was on the 14th of July when they brought you to this 3 meadow for execution. You again saw Mladic? 4 5 A. I did. MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like 6 to ask the usher to place on the ELMO Prosecutor's 7 Exhibit 20/8, for the witness to try to explain to us. 8 Q. Can you tell us, on this photograph, where 9 did that tamic come to a halt, the small truck that 10 brought you there? 11 12 A. Roughly here, somewhere here [indicates]. MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the 13 record, the witness is pointing to the far right side 14 of the photograph, midway up. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. Where did they take your group? A. Here [indicates]. Q. That is where the truck stopped? A. Yes. Q. And where did they take your group? A. My group, here [indicates]. Q. How far was that from the truck? A. I don't know which truck, because the truck 23 didn't come once; as the truck moved away, the next 24 groups came, because they were killing one after 25 another. If the first truck was five to ten meters, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 48 1 about five meters, then the second came, and the third 2 was up here [indicates]. And they went on like that, 3 in a line. 4 Q. So in relation to the truck, and you told us 5 the spot where it was, your group was executed right 6 next to the truck? 7 A. As soon as the truck moved away, the group 8 was liquidated. 9 Q. Please, where was your body, or rather in 10 what position was it in relation to this small thicket 11 we see to the left? 12 A. My head was turned this way and my legs 13 towards the thicket. 14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 15 clear for the record, Your Honour. 16 Q. And so from that position you saw Mladic 17 arriving? 18 19 20 A. I did. Q. Were you able to hear him say anything? A. I could not, because the truck's engine was 21 still on while they were unloading the men, so that the 22 engine was on and I couldn't hear whether he was 23 talking or not. 24 Q. You remained on that spot for several hours, 25 until the last group that arrived was executed? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 49 1 A. That is what somebody said: When the last 2 truck arrived, there were no more, that it was all 3 over. 4 5 Q. So you didn't move from there? A. I did. When night fell and when they turned 6 on the lights, I took shelter. It was cloudy and it 7 started to drizzle, so the lights were not on me, and I 8 drew myself from under that dead pile and I went to the 9 left. And after a couple of meters I was free and I 10 lay there until they finished it all. 11 Q. So you abandoned the spot; you left the spot 12 where you were originally and moved a couple of meters 13 away. From that spot did you notice anything? 14 A. I noticed a truck coming, with men, and saw 15 the dead in front of me. 16 Q. And did you see from that spot Ratko Mladic 17 coming four or five times? 18 19 A. No. Only once. Q. In your statement that you have before you 20 that you saw four or five times -- just a moment, 21 please. Just a moment, please. We're talking about a 22 particular time and place, this particular place, where 23 you say -24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think in the 25 English version that is page 3, and the last Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic Page 50 1 highlighted paragraph. 2 3 Q. -- and I quote: "While I lay there, the blood of the dead was 4 covering me. The Chetniks were bringing new groups in 5 the tamic and killing them. 6 "When dark fell, about an hour after I had 7 been brought there, I took advantage of the Chetniks' 8 carelessness and crawled into some bushes, where I 9 hid. From that place I saw them bringing new groups in 10 a tamic and killing them by the light of the headlights 11 of the two excavators, as they had also brought a 12 second excavator to this spot. While I lay there, I 13 saw Ratko Mladic, bareheaded, come up behind the tamic 14 four or five times in a red car and watch the 15 executions." 16 A. The translation is wrong. A red car escorted 17 every tamic, and Ratko Mladic appeared only once. And 18 I saw Ratko Mladic in all six times, so this must be an 19 error in the translation. I never said that Ratko 20 Mladic came every time. And there was a red car 21 escorting each of the tamic trucks. 22 Q. Witness N, I wasn't showing you the 23 translation; I was showing you your statement given to 24 the State Security Service of the Republic of 25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Re-examined by Mr. Harmon Page 51 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 2 I have no more questions. 3 4 5 Witness N, thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you too. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Petrusic. 7 Mr. Harmon, any additional questions, 8 please? 9 10 11 MR. HARMON: Just a few, Mr. President. Re-examined by Mr. Harmon: Q. Witness N, you were asked by my colleague 12 about the individual named Hamed Efendic, who was the 13 president of the SDA political party in Srebrenica. 14 Was Mr. Efendic an influential member of the Srebrenica 15 Muslim community? 16 A. Until the war, he was. When the war started, 17 he had no authority; other people were in command of 18 Srebrenica. 19 Q. I understand, but was he an esteemed and 20 highly regarded member of the community even though he 21 didn't have a political position? 22 A. Nothing in particular. If he did have a 23 political position, he didn't have any political 24 influence. He wasn't particularly held in high esteem. 25 Q. Ibran Mustafic, who was the former head of Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Re-examined by Mr. Harmon Page 52 1 the Srebrenica municipality and was a deputy in the 2 Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament, was he someone who was 3 influential and esteemed within the Muslim community of 4 Srebrenica? 5 A. He was until the war. He was more esteemed. 6 But when the war started, he meant nothing for 7 Srebrenica either. 8 Q. Now, after the -- strike that. While you 9 were in the warehouse, you said that the Bosnian Serbs 10 would come in and they would call out the names of 11 individuals. Is that correct? 12 13 A. Yes. Q. Did you know all of the individuals whose 14 names were being called? 15 A. I didn't know any one of them, any one of 16 those men. 17 Q. Did it appear to you that, at least in part, 18 when the Bosnian Serbs were calling out names, that 19 they were selecting people who they were fully aware of 20 and who they wanted to identify? 21 A. They called out the name of the village and 22 they would say, "People from that village should get 23 up." Whether those people who got up knew one another, 24 I don't know. But before that, they would come and 25 they would know one another, but I didn't know our men, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness N (Open Session) Re-examined by Mr. Harmon Page 53 1 nor the Serb soldiers. I didn't know either. They 2 spoke to each other as if they were acquaintances: 3 "Where are you? Where have you been? Where's your 4 family?" And then this man on our side would ask the 5 soldier about his family, and that is how they spoke. 6 But I didn't know anyone among the Serb soldiers or 7 among the people -- the Bosniaks who were talking to 8 them. 9 10 11 Q. Witness N, thank you very much. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Harmon. 13 14 Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: Yes, I have a couple of 15 questions, Mr. President 16 17 18 19 Questioned by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness N. A. Good morning, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand 20 perhaps globally the main features of your testimony; 21 first, the phases of execution you mentioned. I'm 22 trying to follow you. You said they would be calling 23 on some important people, prominent people, they would 24 go out, you would hear cries, they would not come 25 back. And you mentioned Hamed Efendic and Ibran Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 54 1 Mustafic, or whatever. These people, if I understood 2 rightly, were privileged to have special treatment, to 3 be tortured or anything, but they were selected. 4 The second phase were people coming out in 5 lines, blindfolded, and you were not among them yet. 6 These people, if I understood rightly, were called upon 7 from villages, asking each group to come, but not by 8 names. And if I understood rightly, they were executed 9 immediately out, because you heard the fire while you 10 were inside and they never came back. 11 12 13 Then at 7.30 you -A. Yes. JUDGE RIAD: -- were blindfolded and you went 14 in a small truck. I understand this was a third phase, 15 people taken away to be executed. And the truck would 16 go back and bring other people, you mentioned. They 17 would be put on rows and so on. Did I understand you 18 rightly? Was that exactly the evolution of the 19 situation? 20 A. As the people were getting out of the gym, 21 they were being blindfolded. First they would give the 22 person some water, and then afterwards he would be 23 blindfolded and then we would get on a truck. And this 24 continued for a while until they finished. And we were 25 then taken, still blindfolded, to a field, a pasture, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 55 1 where we were then being lined up and executed. 2 JUDGE RIAD: The bottom line is that 3 everybody in the gym finished by going out, because you 4 stated 7.30. 5 6 A. Yes, everybody. JUDGE RIAD: Everybody, because you also 7 mentioned that -8 A. Some people remained in the gym after me, and 9 people were still being brought in after me. And at 10 one point somebody said, "It's all over," when the last 11 truck full of people came. And then the man asked the 12 soldier whether he wanted to go back with him, and he 13 said he wouldn't, and he said that maybe there would be 14 another truck coming back and that they would go back; 15 if not, they would stay there and keep guard all night. 16 JUDGE RIAD: I understood. I just want to 17 know the selection which happened at the beginning, 18 which included prominent people, was just at the 19 beginning, taking them out, and then you hear them 20 suffering and shouting. But after that there was no 21 selection; everybody was taken out? 22 A. After that everybody was taken out. There 23 were people who wanted to go first because they were so 24 thirsty. They just wanted to get some water. They 25 didn't care whether they would be killed or not. But Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 56 1 they didn't let us do that. There was supposed to be a 2 line; only once you have reached the entrance you could 3 get some water. There was a small room there with a 4 table in it where people were being given water, and at 5 the same time two soldiers would be blindfolding the 6 person. And after that the person was taken to the TAM 7 truck. 8 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that. So they were 9 all taken. But then you mentioned that when you looked 10 at the field after the executions took place, you found 11 more dead people than there were in the gym, so not 12 only all the people in the gym were killed, but 13 apparently other people came from other places. Is 14 that right? 15 A. No. This is how it seemed because we were 16 crowded in the gym while we were in the gym, and the 17 group appeared to be larger once we were in the field, 18 but it wasn't. They were not bringing people from 19 elsewhere. But because people were so crammed in the 20 gymnasium, it didn't seem that they were -- that there 21 were that many. But once they were lying dead on the 22 field, the number seemed greater. This is only how it 23 seemed but they were not bringing other people. 24 JUDGE RIAD: But it was all the people in the 25 gym in your opinion? Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 57 1 2 A. Only the people from the gym, yes. JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that in the gym 3 there were some people that could hardly move. You 4 said they were over 60, but people over 60 can move. 5 Were they also executed? 6 A. All of those who got out of the gym were 7 killed, whether they were young or old. As soon as 8 they could get up and reach the truck, they were taken 9 away. And afterwards, they didn't have to walk. 10 JUDGE RIAD: So you saw them being taken 11 away, you saw them being taken away. They were not 12 spared; children or old people. 13 A. No, there were no children, and the elderly 14 people were not spared. 15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you heard the soldiers at a 16 certain stage introducing themselves to one another. 17 Do you remember what they said, which divisions they 18 belonged to? 19 20 A. No, they didn't. JUDGE RIAD: Because I heard you saying that 21 some of them were saying they belonged to the wolves 22 and others say, "We belong to Arkanovac." 23 A. Well, yes, yes, I did say that. That is how 24 they addressed each other. We didn't call them that 25 way. It was the way they were addressing each other. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 58 1 2 JUDGE RIAD: What did they say? A. They would say, for example, "This one is an 3 Arkanovac," and then the man would say, "Yes, I am." 4 And he would ask him then, "Are you from the Drina 5 Wolves or some other wolves," I don't know, and then he 6 said, "Yes, I am, and I'm not ashamed of it." This is 7 how they were addressing each other, but I didn't know 8 where they were from. 9 JUDGE RIAD: Do you remember some of the 10 names? 11 12 A. No. JUDGE RIAD: But why did you mention Drina 13 Wolves then? Did they mention it? 14 15 A. Yes, amongst themselves. JUDGE RIAD: Among themselves. Did you 16 notice any accent? Were these an accent of Bosnia or 17 Croatia or Serbia or you don't remember? 18 A. I don't remember. All those accents were the 19 same for me. I am not very familiar with different 20 accents. I don't know where people come from. All I 21 can tell is that they are from the former Yugoslavia. 22 JUDGE RIAD: I think you served before in the 23 Bosnian army, you said, so you don't know the accents. 24 25 A. No. JUDGE RIAD: You were in the Bosnian army or Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 59 1 in the Yugoslav army? 2 A. I served in the Yugoslav army, and during the 3 war before the area became protected, I served with the 4 Bosnian army. 5 JUDGE RIAD: Now, just for our knowledge, how 6 long -- you said that you stayed without moving until 7 all the soldiers went away. How long did this last, 8 staying without moving, do you remember? 9 A. No, I couldn't tell you exactly how long, but 10 it was quite dark, so it must have been around 11.00 11 p.m. but I cannot be precise. And after that, I left. 12 13 14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. A. Thank you too, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you 15 very much, Judge Riad. 16 17 Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: Witness N, I would just like to 18 clear one point in your answer to Judge Riad. 19 I thought I heard you testify that when the 20 soldiers were saying, "I am from the Arkan," or "I am 21 Drina Wolves," that was in the Bratunac warehouse not 22 in the gym at Zvornik; is that right? That's -- when I 23 read over my notes of your testimony yesterday -24 25 A. In Bratunac. JUDGE WALD: -- yes, I just wanted to clear Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 60 1 that up, where that happened, okay. 2 3 A. Yes. JUDGE WALD: The second question I have is: 4 You said that the soldiers at the execution site wore 5 dark green camouflage uniforms. And before that, you 6 said that the soldiers around the gym guarding you or 7 transporting you wore green camouflage uniforms. 8 Was there a difference between those two 9 kinds of uniforms of those that were performing the 10 executions and those that were transporting or guarding 11 you or were they the same kind of green camouflage 12 uniforms? 13 A. There was only one man in the red vehicle 14 which was following the TAM truck who was wearing a one 15 colour grey uniform. Everybody else wore multicoloured 16 camouflage uniforms and this other man was wearing a 17 grey uniform. 18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. But the ones that wore 19 the green camouflage uniforms, it was the same kind of 20 uniforms; the men doing the executing and the men 21 guarding and transporting. Okay. 22 Now, when General Mladic came to the gym and 23 said that the prisoners would be transported -- would 24 be exchanged, how much time lapsed between then and the 25 time that they brought in the blindfolds and began to Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 61 1 take the men out blindfolded to the execution field? 2 It was the same day, you testified, but how 3 much time would you say between the time Mladic came 4 and said you were going to go to a prisoner exchange in 5 the gym, and then when they brought in the blindfolds 6 and began to get people ready to go to the execution 7 field? 8 A. When we were in the warehouse in Bratunac, he 9 told us that we would be exchanged and that we should 10 count ourselves, and that transport would be provided. 11 But this is not where they brought the blindfolds, not 12 in Bratunac. 13 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. But you also 14 testified, you also testified both today, and in your 15 earlier statement that when you were in the gym, when 16 you were in the gym in Zvornik, that Mladic came? 17 18 A. Yes. JUDGE WALD: So I'm asking you what was the 19 time between that time when he came in the gym and 20 talked about -- you said he talked about saying that 21 you would be exchanged and the time they began to 22 blindfold you and take you in the trucks to the 23 execution field. Was it an hour, two hours, or what? 24 A. In the gym, Mladic did not say that we would 25 be exchanged. He said that we would be sent to Kladusa Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 62 1 and Bijeljina and it was only in Bratunac that he said 2 that we would be exchanged. 3 JUDGE WALD: All right. But the question 4 remains: How much time between whatever he said in the 5 gym and the time when they began to take you out? 6 7 A. Two to three hours. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. And my last 8 question to you is: At the execution site, you said 9 that Mladic did come in a red car. How long did he 10 stay in your -- how long did you observe him to say at 11 the execution site? You testified today one time you 12 saw him in the red car at the execution site. 13 A. He stayed until all men were taken off the 14 TAM truck and until they were all executed. 15 JUDGE WALD: Well, roughly how much time did 16 that take? 17 A. Well, there were 25 to 30 people that had to 18 be taken off the TAM truck, and then they had to line 19 them up and execute them. I don't know how much time 20 that would be. You could perhaps judge for yourself. 21 JUDGE WALD: Well, I was not there; you 22 were. The -- would you say half an hour, an hour? 23 24 25 A. Well, not more than ten minutes. JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you. MR. HARMON: Pardon the interruption, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 63 1 Mr. President, but I was examining the transcript as 2 Judge Wald was asking questions, and there was no 3 answer recorded on the transcript to Judge Wald's 4 question about whether the people who were wearing the 5 green camouflage uniforms at the execution sites were 6 wearing the same kind of green camouflage uniforms 7 guarding and transporting the prisoners. 8 To that question put by Judge Wald to Witness 9 N, there was no answer recorded. 10 JUDGE WALD: Would you answer that question 11 now then so we can have a complete record, whether or 12 not the uniforms of the men performing the execution of 13 the soldiers at the execution field were the same as 14 those that were guarding you at the gym, same army 15 camouflage uniforms. 16 17 18 19 You're nodding your head; is that yes? A. Yes. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, 20 very much, Judge Wald, and thank you, Mr. Harmon, for 21 your intervention. 22 23 you. 24 My first question is the following: You Witness N, I also have a few questions for 25 arrive at the school, people get off the bus and you Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 64 1 told us that at that point, they were mostly men. Why 2 do you say "mostly"? 3 4 us. 5 6 7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No interpretation] A. Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there A. Because there were no children or women with 8 were only men. My second question is a synthetical 9 one. How many times did you see Mladic? 10 11 A. Six times. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Six times. 12 Could you then tell us where it was? 13 A. The first time I saw him was when I was 14 separated and taken to an unfinished house. The second 15 time was when we were being put on the buses in 16 Potocari, he was standing next to the buses. The third 17 time it was when he came to us and he told us that we 18 would be exchanged in Kalesija. The fourth time was 19 when we were boarding the buses; again, he was standing 20 right next to the buses. The fifth time was when he 21 came to the gym and when he told us that some of us 22 would go to Kladusa and some of us would go to 23 Bijeljina. And the sixth time was at the meadow where 24 we were executed. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 65 1 thank you. You can still see Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8 2 on the monitor. 3 Mr. Usher, maybe the monitor of the witness 4 could be switched on. 5 Witness, could you please have a look at the 6 photograph. The one that is on the screen. And to 7 tell us the following: We know exactly where you were 8 but what I would like to know is where exactly was 9 General Mladic when you saw him? 10 11 A. He was here at this location [indicates]. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you say 12 that he was right next to these yellow marks somewhere 13 midway up the photograph. You have already told us 14 that that is exactly the spot where you were as well? 15 16 A. Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you were 17 there at the point that you're indicating and where was 18 Mladic? 19 A. Yes, I was lying like this. My head was here 20 [indicates] my legs facing the forest, and Mladic was 21 standing to my right. And the people who were 22 unloading the TAM truck were here [indicates], and he 23 was standing right next to the TAM truck. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well 25 then. Could you then tell us how far from you was Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 66 1 General Mladic? 2 3 A. Not more than ten metres away from me. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. 4 Thank you very much. 5 My next question for you is the following: I 6 think I have understood you correctly, but I would 7 like, nevertheless, to have a confirmation. When 8 General Mladic arrived here at this location, he was 9 able to see the results of the execution; is that 10 correct? 11 12 A. Yes, yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. 13 Then when he arrived, you told us that the buses were 14 coming from the right side on the photograph and that a 15 line was being formed. 16 17 A. You mean the truck? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the 18 truck. And then after the people, the truck had left, 19 people would be lined up and executed. So when General 20 Mladic arrived here, could you tell us how many rows of 21 people were there already? 22 A. I couldn't count, Your Honour. I didn't 23 count. All I know is that there were quite a few of 24 them. 25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But could Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 67 1 you perhaps give us an estimate? Do you have an idea 2 as to the number of journeys that the truck made; how 3 many times the truck arrived to this spot? 4 A. After I had been brought to the spot, you 5 mean? No, no, I cannot give you a definite answer. I 6 was in great fear. I wasn't counting people. I 7 couldn't think about that. All I know is that it was 8 on several occasions, maybe even as many as ten times 9 that they brought people in, but I cannot tell you 10 exactly. 11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. But 12 maybe you will be able to answer the following 13 question: When you arrived at the execution site, had 14 there already been corpses there? 15 16 A. Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. 17 Thank you very much, Witness N. I don't have any other 18 questions for you. 19 You have been asked a number of questions by 20 both parties and by the Judges, and you have answered 21 all of those questions. Is there anything else that 22 you would like to say? Anything that has not been 23 brought up, something you haven't had the opportunity 24 to say? If you wish to say something, you can do it 25 now. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 68 1 A. Your Honour, I don't have anything else to 2 say. I have said everything I wanted to say. Thank 3 you. 4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. 5 Witness N, thank you very much. There is a technical 6 matter that we have to attend to and after that you 7 will be free to go. 8 Mr. Petrusic, I believe that we have one 9 Defence exhibit, D-17. 10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your 11 Honour. The Defence would like to tender D-17 into 12 evidence. 13 14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Subject to a number of 15 redactions which identify this witness by name and by 16 other features, we would have no objection. I have 17 gone through this in the examination. I can give a 18 copy to the registrar of the redactions that are 19 necessary. 20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The exhibit 21 D-17 there will therefore be admitted into evidence 22 under seal and there will also be a redacted version 23 which will be made available to the public. 24 Mr. Dubuisson, will you take care of that? 25 Very well, thank you. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 69 1 Witness N, you have completed your testimony 2 here before the International Tribunal. Thank you very 3 much for coming to testify, and we are so glad you 4 survived the execution and we hope that you will have a 5 happy life after this. At least in order to -- to be 6 able to tell the world that the things that happened 7 independently of those who had committed them are 8 condemnable, are horrible, must not happen again. 9 Thank you very much, once again. Please do not move. 10 Let us see what's happening with our next 11 witness, Mr. Harmon. 12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have another 13 witness. He will be a protected witness, and if we 14 could take perhaps ten additional minutes during the 15 break for reasons that are required, we would 16 appreciate it. 17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What kind 18 of protective measures will be applied, Mr. Harmon? 19 20 MR. HARMON: The same. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The same. 21 Mr. Petrusic. 22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We agree to 23 that, Your Honour. 24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry, 25 Mr. Harmon, you asked for an additional ten minutes. I Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T Witness: Witness O (Open Session) Questioned by the Court Page 70 1 was actually going to have a break. The break was 2 supposed to be 15 minutes. Do you need any additional 3 time? 4 MR. HARMON: We need an additional ten 5 minutes, Mr. President. 6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Twenty-five 7 minutes. So just for the public, there will be a 8 25-minute break now and after that we will resume with 9 the same protective measures for our next witness. 10 Twenty-five minute break. Thursday, 13 April 2000 Case No. IT-98-33-T