EFTA02726849

782 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072 BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL, Plaintiffs, vs. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, Defendant. VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ VOLUME 6 Pages 782 through 909 Wednesday, January 13, 2016 1:05 p.m. - 3:06 p.m. Tripp Scott 110 Southeast 6th Street Fort Lauderdale, Florida Stenographically Reported By: Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR Realtime Systems Administrator www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726849 783 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA 4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A. 2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard 5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626 BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ. 6 [email protected] 7 8 On behalf of Defendant: 9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard Miami, Florida 33156 11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ. [email protected] 12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ. (Via phone) [email protected] 13 --and-- 14 WILEY, REIN 17769 K Street NW 15 Washington, DC 20006 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ. 16 [email protected] 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726850 784 1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 4 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC 575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl. 5 New York, New York BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 7 On behalf of 8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200 9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ. 10 [email protected] 11 12 ALSO PRESENT: 13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master 14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office 15 Marcy Martinez, Videographer 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726851 785 1 INDEX 2 Examination Page 3 4 VOLUME 6 (Pages 782 - 909) 5 6 Certificate of Oath 906 Certificate of Reporter 907 7 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 908 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 909 8 9 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 10 11 No. Page 12 26 Business card of Jeffrey B. Levy, 792 Esquire 13 27 2002 Article on Child Pornography 810 14 28 Miami Beach Police Case Report Detail 822 15 29 Document reflecting entry for 877 16 Dershowitz, Alan 17 30 Santa Monica Police Report 885 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726852 786 1 Thereupon, the proceedings continued at 1:04 p.m. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 3 The time is 1:04 p.m. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Sir, before we move on to the next topic, 6 I want to make sure that we have finished the 7 previous topic. 8 Is there anyone else who gave you 9 information about Paul Cassell who you can identify 10 at this time and did not otherwise this morning 11 identify? 12 A. Yes. So, immediately upon hearing of the 13 false accusation against me, I recall now that I 14 Googled Paul Cassell and discovered that he was 15 called a zealot at least three times on easily 16 accessible published materials. 17 So, the term "zealot" in addition to 18 coming from individuals -- and you can get them on 19 Google as easily as I can -- 20 MR. SCAROLA: The question was, was there 21 anyone else. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. I'm asking is there a person's name? 24 A. These people wrote articles. They have 25 names. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726853 787 1 Q. What are their names? 2 A. I don't recall them. You can get them. 3 You can just Google "Paul Cassell" and you will find 4 names of people who call him a zealot. 5 Q. I think maybe my question wasn't clear, so 6 I'm going to make it crystal clear. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you remembered the name of any 9 individual who you did not identify by name or 10 description this morning that provided you 11 personally with information about Paul Cassell? 12 A. A man named Hobbs, H-O-B-B-S. 13 Q. Is that a first or last name? 14 A. That's a last name. And he -- my 15 recollection is -- I don't know if he testified 16 against Paul Cassell or he just wrote an article, 17 but he wrote an article calling him a dangerous 18 zealot. 19 Q. Did you speak with Hobbs? 20 A. I don't recall if I spoke to him, but I do 21 recall reading his article or reading excerpts at 22 least from the article. 23 And then I remember reading another 24 article, may have been on Slate or -- there are a 25 number of articles calling Paul Cassell a zealot. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-34O8 EFTA02726854 788 1 So the name just didn't pop into my head. It was 2 something, as I said earlier, that was part of his 3 reputation. 4 Q. Okay. I will break this into two 5 questions. One, what information did you have other 6 than human interaction that may have included 7 articles or other things that you read? 8 But before I get to that question, my 9 question is, have you recalled the identity of any 10 person that you did not tell us about or describe 11 earlier this morning that provided you information 12 about Paul Cassell? 13 A. I want to wait for the 14 MR. INDYKE: Outside the privilege. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me? 16 A. Not that I can recall at this time. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. Okay. Are there other materials that you 19 have not yet disclosed during this deposition that 20 you read, that provided you additional bases for 21 your opinions about Mr. Cassell? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. And are these materials that -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726855 789 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 2 second. 3 MR. EDWARDS: Outside of the privilege. 4 MR. INDYKE: Okay. Sorry. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. Are these materials that have been 7 provided already in discovery in this case? 8 A. I don't know the answer to that. I don't 9 know what has been provided and what hasn't. I can 10 just tell you that in the course of my career, I had 11 read -- I had never met Mr. Cassell, but I had read 12 his articles, and they are aptly described as 13 zealous. He once -- he was once described as 14 somebody who misused -- I think misused or uses 15 family values to hide his zealotry. But I was 16 familiar with his what are regarded as very extreme 17 writings. And that formed part of my opinion about 18 his zealotry, yes. 19 Q. What was the timing of your reading these 20 articles that helped to form a part of your opinion 21 about Mr. Cassell? 22 A. Very soon after the allegation was made. 23 Not only did I independently read, but people called 24 me and alerted me to read this, read that. People 25 sent me briefs and asked me to read them. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726856 790 1 Q. So one of the things that you took into 2 consideration in assessing the reputation or 3 credibility of Paul Cassell were various things that 4 he had written or that had been written about him? 5 A. Yes, and what people had said about him. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I mean, just to give you an example, if 8 you don't mind me just elaborating one second, as I 9 was getting lunch today downstairs, three people 10 came over to me. One of them said, I can't believe 11 those, and then he used the F word, scrupulous -- 12 unscrupulous, unethical lawyers who have done this 13 to you, this is horrible, get them, they have to pay 14 a price, they ought to be disciplined. 15 And I said, do you know me? 16 No, but I've been following this story. 17 This 18 19 20 21 22 horrible. No decent lawyer would ever do this. 23 This happens to me all the time. People 24 come over to me all the time and tell me what they 25 think of you and Paul Cassell. is just unbelievable. And then two other people, one of whom overheard it, said, I just want to join in on that. I don't know you, but I just want you to know that the lawyers who did this are beyond -- they're just www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726857 791 1 Q. Okay. Where were you eating lunch today? 2 A. In a Wrap [sic] around restaurant. 3 Q. Where is it located geographically? 4 A. Right in the building. In the building. 5 Q. And are these individuals that spoke to 6 you individuals who told you that they know either 7 myself or Paul Cassell? 8 A. I didn't ask that question. It was just 9 -- it was quick conversation and one of them said, 10 I'll do anything to help. 11 Q. Okay. What is the identity of the person 12 who will do anything to help you? 13 A. His name is Jeffrey Levy. He is an 14 attorney here. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: "Here" meaning 16 where? 17 A. In Fort Lauderdale. He's a family lawyer. 18 Just out of the blue, I don't know him from Adam. 19 But this happens to me all the time. When I go to 20 Miami tomorrow, I'll be walking down Lincoln Road, 21 people will come over to me and tell me about you. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Okay. Can you give me the cards of the 24 other people that have given you these cards all the 25 time so that we can -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726858 792 1 A. No. The only reason I asked for this card 2 today, I asked him for the card because I said, I 3 want to be able to mention this if I'm asked about 4 it in the deposition. Would you mind giving me the 5 card? 6 He said, "I'm thrilled." He went to his 7 car, he got the card, and he said -- 8 MR. EDWARDS: I would like to attach the 9 card of Jeffrey Levy to the deposition as the 10 next consecutive exhibit, which I believe is 11 26. 12 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 13 Exhibit 26.) 14 MR. EDWARDS: Can I see the exhibit? 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Sure. 16 MR. SCOTT: Can I see the exhibit, too, 17 when you're done? 18 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. On the back of this card, there is some 21 writing. Whose writing is that? 22 A. Mine. 23 Q. The writing, I think, says "Scarola 24 unethical e-mail"? 25 A. That's right. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726859 793 1 Q. And does that scribbling of "Scarola 2 unethical e-mail" relate at all to this card? 3 A. Not directly, no. Not directly. 4 Q. Did this lawyer, Jeffrey Levy, discuss 5 with you Jack Scarola at all? 6 A. No. He just discussed just the lawyers 7 generically and their unethical conduct. 8 Q. And the lawyers generically, he's talking 9 about the lawyers who believe 10 A. No. The lawyers who pretend to believe 11 None of us think you believe her. 12 Nobody I know thinks you believe her. 13 Q. Nobody you know thinks 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Any of the people you described yesterday, 16 which is now inclusive of Brad Edwards, Paul 17 Cassell, Jack Scarola, Sigrid McCawley and David 18 Boise, believe ; that's your 19 testimony? 20 A. That's right, and Sigrid McCawley told me 21 that. 22 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry, I'm going to 23 object. This again -- so I have no idea what 24 context, or if you're referring to a context 25 where we were having settlement discussions, www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726860 794 1 that violates the seal order that's already in 2 place. There's a motion for sanctions pending. 3 We will be supplementing with this. 4 You know, how many times do we have to go 5 over this, Alan? It's not appropriate. First 6 of all, you're misrepresenting things. And 7 I'll state for the record, I did not say that. 8 But secondly -- 9 THE WITNESS: She's waiving privilege. 10 MS. McCAWLEY: No, I'm not waiving the 11 privilege. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, you are. 13 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm denying the allegation 14 that you just made on the record. I'm making 15 my record that you are not entitled to discuss 16 anything that deals with confidential 17 settlement discussions. Misrepresenting those 18 is a violation of that, and I'll go back to the 19 judge and get another order if I need to. 20 THE WITNESS: I was asked a question -- 21 MR. SIMPSON: Don't 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. 23 MR. SCAROLA: Could we have 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there 25 anything else, Ms. McCawley? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726861 795 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 MS. McCAWLEY: No, not right now. MR. SCAROLA: Could we have the question and the answer read back, please. SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's go ahead and do that, just for purposes of COURT REPORTER: "Any of the people you described yesterday, which is now inclusive of 8 Brad Edwards, Paul Cassell, Jack Scarola, 9 Sigrid McCawley and David Boise, believe 10 ; that's your testimony? 11 "That's right, and Sigrid McCawley told me 12 that." 13 A. That's absolutely responsive. 14 MR. SCAROLA: We move to strike the "and 15 Sigrid McCawley told me that" comment as 16 unresponsive to the question that was asked. 17 And we agree that it is clearly violative of 18 the Court order that has been entered with 19 respect to this matter. 20 MR. SIMPSON: The question on its face 21 asked about Ms. McCawley. It was Mr. Edwards 22 that injected her views into the question. It 23 was not the witness. 24 SPECIAL MASTERPOZZUOLI: Go back up to the 25 question. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726862 796 1 THE WITNESS: I'm happy to have it sealed 2 if you want. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a 4 second. Go back up to the question. 5 COURT REPORTER: "QUESTION: Any of the 6 people you described yesterday, which is now 7 inclusive of Brad Edwards, Paul Cassell, Jack 8 Scarola, Sigrid McCawley and David Boise, 9 believe ; that's your 10 testimony? 11 "ANSWER: That's right, and Sigrid 12 McCawley told me that." 13 MR. SCAROLA: The responsive answer ends 14 with "and that's right." Excuse me. "That's 15 right," period. 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Give me a 17 second. I'll grant the Motion to Strike from 18 "and" all the way to the end. 19 A. I'm also happy to have it sealed, if they 20 choose to. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, I don't 22 know what is going to come up, but it will be 23 dealt with one way or another. 24 MR. SIMPSON: The witness said we would be 25 happy to have it sealed, given that ruling. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726863 797 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. This attorney, Jeffrey Levy, did he 3 elaborate upon the basis for his offer to help you 4 against the generically described unscrupulous 5 lawyers, question mark? 6 A. Yes, he basically said these are lawyers 7 who are willing to make these outrageous charges, 8 and lawyers shouldn't be making these kinds of 9 outrageous charges against other lawyers, especially 10 when they're irrelevant. And basically he seemed to 11 know a little bit about -- not much, but a little 12 bit about the case. 13 But I use it as an illustration of people 14 coming to me all the time making these statements to 15 help amplify my answer. It's why I can't remember 16 names. Normally I wouldn't have asked him his name. 17 I only asked him his name because of your questions 18 of me today. But every -- virtually every week -- 19 in the beginning, it was every day, people would 20 come over to me with these kinds of statements. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. But is this lawyer's opinion, am I 24 understanding that that -- that's something you 25 weigh in to support your public statements that you www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726864 798 1 have made? 2 A. I look at the totality of circumstances. 3 I look at my professional opinion, I look at what 4 I've read, I look at what I've told, I try to 5 calibrate, weigh everything for what it's worth and 6 then I come to an opinion. 7 And my opinion that I arrived at was based 8 at the totality of the circumstances that I was 9 aware of at the time I made this statement. And the 10 statement turns out to be true. 11 Q. And Jeffrey Levy, whatever his opinion is, 12 is one of the things that you're factoring in at 13 this point? 14 A. No, of course not. Of course not. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Not now, I don't have to factor anything 17 in. I now know the truth. I now know from other 18 people that this was all part of an extortion plot 19 and that the object of the extortion was Leslie 20 Wexner. But I'm aware of that now, so I don't have 21 to base the opinion on anything else. 22 MR. EDWARDS: Objection. Move to strike. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to go 24 ahead and move -- grant the Motion to Strike. 25 Go back up. Let me just see where -- because I www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726865 799 1 wanted to find -- so from "I now know from 2 other people this is all part of an extortion 3 plot," from there down, we'll strike. 4 So what will remain is "not now, I don't 5 have to factor anything in. I now know the 6 truth." That will remain. 7 BY MR. EDWARDS: 8 Q. Okay. What are the identities of the 9 other two individuals that you encountered during 10 your lunch break? 11 A. One of them is a woman, a lawyer and -- 12 MR. SCAROLA: He asked for a name. 13 A. I don't know the names. I didn't ask the 14 names from anybody. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Is there a description that would help me 17 learn the identity of this person? 18 A. She was in her 40s, probably. She had 19 short, cropped hair. 20 Q. Is this somebody who knew the lawyers who 21 had accused you by reputation? 22 A. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just 23 giving you an illustration of what people tell me 24 all the time. 25 Q. Okay. During the lunch break, did you www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726866 800 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 have a chance to consider whether you were willing 2 to waive the attorney-client privilege with respect 3 to the identities of the individuals with whom you 4 share a privilege in the circumstance where you are 5 the client, that provided you information that 6 helped form the basis of your opinions about Paul 7 Cassell and Brad Edwards? 8 MR. SCOTT: We've instructed my client not to waive the privilege. MR. SCAROLA: Both privileges? MR. SCOTT: Yes. MR. SCAROLA: And by "both," I mean both attorney-client and work product. MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir. MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. Isn't another reason that publicly that you could not have -- you have given that anybody who knows you would know that you could not have and would not have committed such an offense, you're not that kind of person? A. That's right. Q. And similar to what you did with respect to Paul Cassell and reading about what is public out there about him to form the basis of your belief in www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726867 801 1 his credibility and reputation, you would agree that 2 it's also fair to have done the same thing with 3 respect to you, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Is it -- do you or have you in the 6 past enjoyed getting naked at clothing-optional 7 beaches in Martha's Vineyard? 8 A. When I was -- 9 MR. SCOTT: Objection, relevancy to that. 10 Invasion of privacy. Has no relevancy 11 whatsoever. I would like a ruling. 12 MR. EDWARDS: It is reasonably calculated 13 to lead to the discovery of admissible 14 evidence. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to 16 deny the objection, but give you -- latitude is 17 not unlimited. 18 MR. EDWARDS: I understand. 19 A. Would you give me a time frame? 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Sure. At around October 15, 2001, which 22 is a time period we have agreed falls within the 23 relevant time period of this case. 24 A. So I have to give a lengthy answer to 25 this. There is a beach on Martha's Vineyard which www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726868 802 1 has traditionally been a clothing-optional beach. 2 Rumors are that Eleanor Roosevelt use to skinny dip 3 there. Many prominent people have skinny dipped on 4 that beach, and my wife and I have occasionally 5 skinny dipped on that beach. Yes. Not in recent 6 years. 7 Q. Were you asked at some point to represent 8 a woman by the name of Nikki Craft? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And with respect to that representation or 11 attempted representation, have you read the 12 statement that she has put out publicly regarding 13 you? 14 A. I don't recall, but I can tell you what 15 the facts of the case were and why I turned down 16 representation, if you would like to hear it. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let him ask his 18 question. 19 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Sure? 21 MR. EDWARDS: No, no. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Oh, okay. Go 23 ahead. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Have you -- do you know that she has said www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726869 803 1 that she has written "Does there exist for 2 Dershowitz an overpowering thrill of seeing the 3 female nude such as to prevent him from seeing the 4 issues from a woman's viewpoint?" 5 A. I think she also called me Mengele in the 6 article She compared me to Mengele, the nazi 7 killer. She was furious that I wouldn't take her 8 case because she wanted to walk topless down the 9 middle of the city in the middle of the street, and 10 I don't believe in that. 11 I had represented the nude beach in Truro, 12 Massachusetts, where people want to go skinny 13 dipping in private areas, but I do not believe that 14 anybody has the right to be nude or topless in 15 public. I turned down her case. I never met her. 16 She wrote to me, and I wrote back turning down her 17 case. 18 And she just went on a rampage against me. 19 As far as I know, she's never met me. She's never 20 seen me. And she has just written, I remember, and 21 attacked me. She went on the radio and attacked me 22 all because I refused to represent her walking 23 topless through the city. 24 Q. Okay. And part of that rampage was her 25 understanding of your "eager response to naked women www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726870 804 1 could be compared with that of a little boy let 2 loose in a candy store"? 3 A. She doesn't know me. That was something 4 she just made up. 5 MR. SCOTT: I need a ruling on relevancy. 6 But, I mean, reading statements from people 7 from articles and asking him about them is 8 totally irrelevant. Goes to nothing in this 9 case. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask your I'm 11 hoping that you're going to tie this up to 12 something. 13 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. Can you -- well, let's go back first. 16 Can you provide me the articles -- all of 17 the articles on Paul Cassell that you have testified 18 about today? 19 A. I'm sure I can. 20 Q. Can you provide them to me now? 21 A. No. I told you I looked at them a year 22 ago. 23 Q. But it's fair for you to review those 24 articles and tell me what is in them, correct? 25 A. At some point, but I'm not going to do it www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726871 805 1 right -- I can't do it now. I don't have it in 2 front of me. 3 Q. On your Harvard website, is there a 4 compilation of articles which you've written in the 5 past? 6 A. I haven't looked at my website, but I've 7 written, I think, over a thousand articles. 8 Q. At some point in time, did you write for 9 Hustler magazine? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you publish in Hustler magazine? 12 A. No. 13 Q. None of your articles were published in 14 Hustler magazine? 15 A. No. I was once called the "asshole of the 16 month" by Hustler magazine because I refused to 17 represent Mr. Flint, and he had a picture of my face 18 coming out of the rectum of a donkey, calling me 19 "asshole of the month." But I didn't publish that, 20 I assure you. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Tell me that 22 we're going to get somewhere with this, because 23 this is -- you know, see if we can tie this up 24 in some form. 25 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Let me just put on www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726872 806 1 the record why this is reasonably calculated is 2 the statement was made by Mr. Dershowitz that 3 he's not the kind of person to have done this. 4 THE WITNESS: To have raped a 16-year-old. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Our client -- our client has 6 described certain things about Mr. Dershowitz, 7 and if those certain things that she has 8 described are consistent with things that he 9 does believe in or has done in the past, then 10 that would add credibility to our client. 11 THE WITNESS: Would you tell me what your 12 client -- 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a 14 second. 15 MR. EDWARDS: I don't have to do that. I 16 can just discover on this subject matter. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to let 18 you. But the idea that he might have skinny 19 dipped with his wife is slightly different. So 20 I would -- I mean, I don't see that as 21 relevant, but I'm going to let you continue. I 22 mean, because it's not my role here to decide 23 that. 24 But I'm just saying to you that I get 25 where you're going. So, proceed through this, www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726873 807 1 but let's get to -- this is going to be 2 forever. I mean, because he's got a thousand 3 articles published, you can go through each of 4 them and pick out whatever or whatever it is. 5 So let's 6 MR. EDWARDS: There are two other things 7 at issue here. One is at the time that these 8 pleadings were placed, what was our -- what was 9 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards' mind state. The 10 other thing is Mr. Dershowitz has a claim for 11 damages to his sterling reputation. So to the 12 degree that there is some damage to reputation 13 caused by some other source, then that is 14 something else that should be -- we should have 15 discovery into. 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's why I'm 17 allowing the latitude. 18 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you. 19 MR. SCOTT: There is certain relevance to 20 some of that. I mean, going into a lot of 21 these different things is -- you know, it's 22 years ago into the past and things like that. 23 It's just ridiculous. It's irrelevant. 24 And I think you get -- we're going to ask 25 you to make a decision on these things as they www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726874 808 1 come up if this is going on to go on for hour 2 after hour asking things over a man's life of 3 70-some years. 4 THE WITNESS: Seventy-seven. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask your next 6 question. 7 BY MR. EDWARDS: 8 Q. Sure. Did you write articles on behalf of 9 Penthouse magazine? 10 A. I was Robert Guccione's lawyer on First 11 Amendment issues, and he asked me to do a column 12 every month on First Amendment and justice issues, 13 and I did that for 25 years, virtually every month 14 writing an article on justice and the First 15 Amendment. 16 Q. Have you ever written an article about the 17 idea that viewing child pornography should not be a 18 crime? 19 A. I can tell you my position. My position 20 is that creating child pornography should be a 21 crime, but that viewing -- I think I wrote about 22 viewing virtual child pornography; that is, 23 contrived images that are not real. And the Supreme 24 Court supported me on that position. 25 Supreme Court has ruled consistent with my www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726875 809 1 position that when you have computer-generated 2 pictures of children that the focus should be on 3 making of the pornography, which is a crime, but not 4 on the viewing of the pornography. 5 And I have a view, a scientific view that 6 I've published about, written many articles about, 7 that there is no relationship between the viewing of 8 pornography and commission of violent crimes. And I 9 have the data to support that. And I think I'm one 10 of the leading authorities on that issue. It's an 11 academic issue of some considerable interest me. 12 Q. You're one of the leading authorities on 13 the issue that -- 14 A. Of the causation -- the relationship 15 between viewing pornography and crimes of violence. 16 Q. Viewing child pornography? 17 A. I would say in general. I don't know that 18 I distinguish between that in the scientific 19 research that I've done. 20 Q. I'm going to go ahead and show you what's 21 been marked as Exhibit 27. I'll show it to your 22 lawyer first. Ask if you recognize it. 23 MR. SIMPSON: Do you have a copy for us? 24 MR. EDWARDS: That's my only copy. We'll 25 use it -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726876 810 1 MR. SCOTT: You know, I asked I'm going 2 to put this on. I asked yesterday to have 3 copies of exhibits. 4 MR. SCAROLA: I think we do have a copy, 5 before you get all exorcized over this. 6 MR. SCOTT: By the way -- 7 MR. SCAROLA: I think we do have a copy. 8 MR. SCOTT: Okay. And by the way, the 9 thing you published from the Bench & Bar, 10 it's -- you said it was in the exhibits. It's 11 not. 12 MR. SCAROLA: I told you if it's not 13 there, we'll get it for you. 14 MR. SCOTT: Yeah. I'd like it today, if 15 you could get it, because that's what you said 16 yesterday. 17 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 18 Exhibit 27.) 19 MR. SCAROLA: I said tell us what else you 20 need, and we'll get it for you. 21 THE WITNESS: So not only is my -- 22 MR. SIMPSON: Wait a minute. Hang on. 23 That's the witness's. 24 MR. SCOTT: Is this the witness's copy? 25 MR. SIMPSON: You can have this one, Tom. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726877 811 1 MR. SCOTT: There's some notes on there. 2 I don't know if you want them, but -- 3 MR. EDWARDS: I'll take it. 4 MR. SCOTT: I think they're your 5 questions. I could be wrong. I could have 6 handed it to him, it would have probably 7 expedited it. 8 MR. EDWARDS: I doubt it. 9 A. Okay. I remember writing this article. 10 It grew out of a pro bono case that I did 11 representing a student. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Does that article limit the opinion of 14 that viewing child pornography or children 15 fornicating should not be criminal to virtual child 16 pornography? 17 A. I think I say in the article -- I asked 18 19 20 21 22 23 democracy. I say there is a potential here for a 24 real witch hunt. Child molestation is a serious 25 problem. The creation of child pornography is also the question: But should it be a crime for someone who has never and would never molest a child to view child pornography? I think I raised that question. And I talk about the dangers to the values of the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726878 812 9 10 11 12 13 1 a serious problem. We don't know whether the 2 viewing of child pornography is or is not a serious 3 problem, but many people think it is. 4 So, I don't think I take a definitive 5 view. I am an academic. You're trying not only to 6 put my ideas on trial here today, what I've written 7 about on trial; you're trying to put my advocacy on 8 behalf of defendants on trial, you're putting the Sixth Amendment on trial, you're putting the First Amendment on trial. You're inviting the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers to intervene in this case, because they will not stand by and tolerate an 14 academic having his ideas put on trial or an 15 advocate -- I was going to say a zealous advocate, 16 and I claim that, I am a zealous advocate, putting 17 his representation on trial. That is unAmerican. 18 That is McCarthyite and is beneath contempt. 19 MR. EDWARDS: Object and move to strike. 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Denied. Denied. 21 Move forward. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Is Paul Cassell also an academic? 24 A. Paul Cassell teaches and uses the 25 stationery of law school as part of his -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726879 813 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Answer the 2 question. 3 A. He is an academic. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. When was that article that has now been 6 marked as 27 written? 7 A. Copyrighted 2002. 8 Q. Is 2002 within the relevant time period 9 that we've defined in this case? 10 A. Yes, but I've written articles like this 11 as far back as probably as 1967, and I've written 12 them probably as recently as the last couple of 13 years. I have a book which deals with the subject. 14 I have a long Law Review article called "Why 15 Pornography?" 16 So to focus on that year seems to me as to 17 wrench out of context the fact that this has been my 18 view. I had a debate with William Buckley about it 19 at Harvard University. I had a debate with -- 20 interestingly enough, I had a debate with Ginsberg, 21 the poet, in which I took the opposite view in which 22 I was very, very tough on child pornography, talking 23 about how much I despise it and hate it and think 24 it's immoral and improper. 25 But just because I think something is www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726880 814 1 2 3 4 5 6 immoral and horrible doesn't mean I necessarily think it should be criminal. Unlike some people, I don't necessarily associate my personal views of conduct with what I think should be illegal or who I would represent. Q. Have you ever had any of your articles 7 that you have written removed from your Harvard 8 website? 9 A. Not that I know of. That would be a 10 violation of academic freedom. 11 Q. Is there any reason why the article that 12 is now number 27 is, as of February of 2015, no 13 longer on your website? 14 A. I doubt that that's true. I doubt that it 15 was removed. I don't think every article let me 16 tell you, unequivocally, I did not remove it, order 17 it to be removed or know it was removed. I doubt it 18 was removed. I can't imagine why anybody would ever 19 remove any article. I'm very proud of this article. 20 Q. Is there any explanation for that 21 particular article being within the articles on your 22 website at some point and later no longer appearing 23 on your website? 24 A. I don't think that's true. And if it is, 25 I have no idea how it happened or why it happened. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726881 815 1 It's not something I would ever tolerate being done. 2 There isn't a single article I would remove from my 3 website. I'm proud of every article I've written. 4 And I'm sure you will find many other articles. 5 I don't know what my website includes. 6 But there is a book that's been written that honors 7 me by University of Albany Law School and contains 8 in the back all of my articles. I don't know that 9 my website does more than have a selection of my 10 articles. So I would have to look. But I'm not 11 aware of it. I don't handle my website. 12 Q. Who decides which articles are placed on 13 the website and which are taken off of the website? 14 A. My assistant, Sarah Neely. 15 Q. Is Sarah Neely somebody who has been 16 involved in any aspect of the defense of this 17 particular case? 18 A. She's just my assistant, she's my 19 secretary. She does all of my typing and does 20 everything that I do. So she's been involved in 21 every aspect of my life since she worked for me 22 about eight years ago. 23 Q. Is there anyone other than Sarah Neely who 24 would put an article up on the website or remove the 25 article from the website? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726882 816 1 A. Not that I know of. 2 Q. And is she permitted to remove any 3 articles from the website without your permission? 4 A. I have no idea. I've never ever read my 5 website. I am not a web person. I don't know 6 what's on my website. And she also does tweeter or 7 Twitter. I have no idea. She circulates some 8 articles, she doesn't do anything, I have no control 9 over that. And I had nothing to do, nothing, zero, 10 with either placing the article or if it was 11 removed, removing the article. Zero percent. 12 Q. Okay. Have you ever called for a complete 13 overhaul of rape laws in Massachusetts? 14 A. One of my academic subjects that I've been 15 interested in for many, many years has been the 16 definition of rape and the idea of consent. 17 And I recently wrote an article calling 18 for affirmative consent to be required in all rape 19 cases, making the point that it's far better than 20 ten consented-to rapes don't -- that ten 21 consented-to acts of sexuality do not occur rather 22 than even one unconsented-to act of sexuality occur. 23 So in other words, I've flipped the 24 Blackstonian notion and say it's far, far better 25 that voluntary sex not occur in questionable www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726883 817 1 situations than even one act of unconsented-to sex. 2 I'm very much a hawk on the issue of consent and 3 want to make sure that no sexual encounter ever 4 occurs. And I teach that to my students. And I 5 lecture my students about that. I think the laws of 6 Massachusetts and the laws of many, many other 7 states are in a complete state of messiness, and I 8 would be thrilled to have an -- overall rape laws 9 all over the county. 10 Q. Have you included within your request for 11 a complete overhaul lowering the age of consent 12 considerably? 13 A. I know I argued in Florida -- we produced 14 some data in Florida that the age of consent is 18. 15 And, by the way, this all happened way, way after 16 the events at issue. But that the average age of 17 commencing sex in the state of Florida is well below 18 that. And, therefore, there is a substantial 19 disparity in California, which has 18, and Florida, 20 which has 18, between the actual activities that 21 occur -- many, many acts of sexual conduct occur 22 between the ages of 17 and 18, but the acts are 23 illegal. 24 I have for years, basically since the 25 Vietnam War when I argued this, said that when you www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726884 818 1 have tremendous disparity between the law in action 2 and the law on the books, that creates disrespect 3 for the law. And so what I want to see is a change 4 that reflects the actual pattern of sexuality 5 community by community, state by state. That's been 6 my academic position. 7 Q. Have you, as far back as 1997, advocated 8 for lowering the age of consent to 15, as something 9 that would seem like an appropriate compromise, 10 given that reasonable people might disagree on 11 whether it should be as low as 14? 12 A. I don't recall that. If you could show me 13 what you claim I said, I would be happy to look at 14 it. I don't recall that. I do not believe the age 15 of consent should be 15. 16 Q. Okay. Have you ever believed that age of 17 consent should be 15? 18 A. I have no recollection of that. But if 19 you could show me what you claim I said, I will be 20 happy to look at it and read it in context. 21 Q. That's not a belief that you have today? 22 A. That's not a believe that I have today, 23 no. 24 Q. Do you currently have a place at 1500 25 Ocean Drive, Miami Beach? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726885 819 1 A. I do. 2 Q. And is that near a clothing-optional 3 beach? 4 A. No. Not that I know of. I'm not aware of 5 any. 6 Q. Is there instances where you have seen 7 women lying out nude on the beach near your condo? 8 MR. SCOTT: You know, really the relevancy 9 of this is so strained. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You really are 11 straining the relevancy. But go ahead. It's 12 your time. Go ahead. I'm not going to -- 13 A. Any human being who is not blind who has 14 walked on any part of South Beach has seen a vast, 15 vast, vast, vast majority of men and women are 16 dressed in totally appropriate bathing suits, and 17 occasionally there are some who are not. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Have you, at your condominium complex, 20 earned the reputation as somebody who goes out onto 21 the beach anytime there is a nude girl? 22 A. No. What you're talking about is last 23 year my wife ran for the condo board, and she ran 24 against another group of people, and they were 25 exchanging insults. And one of the women whose www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726886 820 1 husband was running against or -- Caroline made an 2 absurd allegation that everybody -- everybody in the 3 condo building not only booed her but virtually 4 threw her out of the building. It was a totally, 5 totally made-up lie. 6 And the fact that you are relying on that 7 kind of nonsense really confirms everything I 8 thought about you. It really confirms everything I 9 thought about you. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's move on. 11 MR. SCAROLA: Not before we move to strike 12 that last comment. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You know, I 14 would normally agree, but I'm going to let it 15 stand. Go ahead and move forward. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. Okay. Was there a circumstance, then, 18 that this individual named Wendy Dawson confronted 19 your wife and specifically told your wife that 20 you're a pervert -- is that something that you 21 know -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- to have happened? 24 A. Let me finish. That happened, and my wife 25 told her what she thought of that, and everybody in www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726887 821 1 the condo, and she is now a completely ostracized 2 person. She also claims that I called her a slut. 3 And her husband threatened to beat me up. And this 4 caused a lot of tension in the building. But I 5 think if you ask -- there are 104 tenants in the 6 building. I think 103 of them would tell you she's 7 a complete nutcase. 8 Q. Well, did she in response to -- well, did 9 you confront her and specifically say, "I'm going to 10 ruin your life. You don't know what I'm capable of. 11 You're going to be sorry that you said that to my 12 wife"? 13 A. No. 14 MR. SCOTT: Can I ask what you are reading 15 from? 16 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. It's a Miami-Dade 17 police report that was made in 2014 by somebody 18 at the condominium against Alan Dershowitz. 19 A. Not somebody at the condominium. This 20 woman. 21 MR. SCOTT: Can we mark this as an 22 exhibit, please. 23 A. And it was totally ignored, and the police 24 said they didn't believe her. 25 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726888 822 1 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 2 Exhibit 28.) 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. Did you know that this police report was 5 made against you? 6 A. I think I was told that it was, yeah. You 7 know, I also had a report made -- 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a 9 second. 10 A. Okay. But I want to illustrate how many 11 reports were made against me. I was charged with 12 harassing students at Johns Hopkins University 13 because I refused to acknowledge that Israel commits 14 war crimes. And as a result of my silence on 15 whether Israel commits war crimes, I was charged 16 with harassing students. Do you want to ask me 17 about that as well or other kinds of allegations? 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. When did that happen? 20 A. This happened about three months ago. 21 Another Arab group accused -- filed a Bar 22 complaint against me at one point because I support 23 Israel, I am therefore a war criminal. 24 A professor at Ohio University named -- 25 oh, God, I can't remember his name now -- Boyle, I www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726889 823 1 think, accused me of being a war criminal. 2 Do you want to go down the list of things 3 that I've been accused of? I acknowledge I am a 4 very controversial person. I'm a lightening rod for 5 controversy and criticism. That bears nothing on my 6 personal conduct and integrity. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead and 8 move forward. 9 MR. SCOTT: Did we mark that as an 10 exhibit? 11 MR. EDWARDS: Twenty-eight. 12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, ma'am. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Are you also familiar with somebody named 15 Noam Chomsky? 16 A. Yes. He was my counselor at Camp Massad 17 in 19- -- or counselor in my division at Camp Massad 18 in 1948, so I've known him for 67 years. 19 Q. This is somebody who was voted the world's 20 leading public intellectual, whatever that title -- 21 A. He wasn't voted. He was named that. 22 Nobody voted on it. 23 Q. And is this somebody who has repeatedly 24 and publicly labeled you as a dedicated liar? 25 A. He and I have had an enormous and public www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726890 824 1 controversy that's gone on for -- since 1970 when I 2 first debated him. And the controversy is well 3 known. I've debated him on many occasions, and I 4 think beaten him on every such occasion. 5 He is a radical anti-American, hard left, 6 American hater. Virtual anti-Semite. And we have 7 very little respect for each other's views. That's 8 in the form of public controversy, yes. But he has 9 never pinpointed -- in fact, in a recent debate, I 10 gave the students list of ten -- a bunch of things 11 that he said, and I challenged the students to 12 Google him for accuracy, and I got back dozens and 13 dozens of responses saying that clearly he had 14 misstated all the facts, and they had checked my 15 facts, and my facts were accurately stated. 16 Q. Can you tell me each of the days during 17 between the period of 1999 and 2002 when you were in 18 the presence of Jeffrey Epstein? 19 MR. SCOTT: Objection. Overly broad, 20 asking him to comment about every time he's 21 been with someone in three years. 22 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Darren, go ahead 24 and make your objection for the record so the 25 court reporter can get it. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726891 825 1 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 2 attorney-client, work product, and instruct not 3 to answer. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Can you answer 5 outside the privilege? 6 A. I can describe to my memory the times that 7 I was in his presence without describing the 8 reason -- 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: The nature -- 10 A. -- I was in his presence. 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's fine. Go 12 ahead. You can, because the question was -- 13 and go back and read the question so we can get 14 your question answered. 15 COURT REPORTER: "Can you tell me each of 16 the days during -- between the period of 1999 17 and 2002 when you were in the presence of 18 Jeffrey Epstein?" 19 A. And that will require a lengthy answer. 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, he's asked 21 the question, and if you can answer it outside 22 the privilege, because really all we're talking 23 about now is can you tell me the days. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Just the days. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726892 826 1 MR. SCOTT: If you can remember. Can you 2 remember specific days? 3 A. I can remember some, yeah. So let me 4 first say that I was never with Jeffrey Epstein 5 during that relevant time period on his island. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. I'm not asking that question. 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no. 9 Listen, the question is, "Can you tell me each 10 of the days during -- between the period of 11 1999 and 2002 when you were in the presence of 12 Jeffrey Epstein?" 13 MR. SCOTT: He wants specific dates for 14 three years. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That is the 16 question verbatim, because I'm reading it from 17 the transcript. 18 A. Okay. During that period of time, we had 19 lunch at Joe's Stone Crab. We have an entry in the 20 calendar, which they have. That was during that 21 period of time. It was in Miami Beach. 22 My recollection is each summer during that 23 period of time, he flew up to Martha's Vineyard and 24 spent a part of the day with us at my home on 25 Martha's Vineyard with me and my wife and my www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726893 827 1 children, who were there, with -- at least on one of 2 those occasions with Ghislaine, maybe more. 3 I think during that period of time, we 4 attended a birthday party for Lord Evelyn Rothschild 5 at which Prince Andrew was in attendance and Lady 6 Rothschild was in attendance. Those are the ones 7 that I can think of right now. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Between 1999 and 2002, did you ever visit 10 Jeffrey Epstein's home in Manhattan? 11 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 12 instruction. 13 A. It's possible. I know I visited his 14 office. He had an office at -- on Fifth -- Madison 15 Avenue, I think, and he would call me periodically 16 to come over to the office to discuss a matter and I 17 would go to his office. 18 I'm trying to remember if I was at his 19 home during that period of time. It's very 20 possible. But I have no distinct recollection of 21 whether I was at his home during that period of time 22 or when it might have been. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. How many times have you been to Jeffrey 25 Epstein's home in Manhattan? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726894 828 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: During what 2 period of time? During the relevant of time, 3 or are you expanding it? 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Well, to the extent you can tell me, 6 between 1999 and 2002, which I think you just told 7 me, I'm not sure whether I was there or not, right? 8 A. I don't -- I'm not sure whether I was 9 there or not. 10 Q. So let's just broaden it, then. How many 11 times have you been to Jeffrey Epstein's home in 12 Manhattan ever? 13 MR. SCOTT: Objection. I think that's 14 overly broad. 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 16 instruction. 17 A. I'm remembering a time. I think I was at 18 a party at his house with Vera Wang and another 19 famous designer, and probably a hundred people. I 20 think that may have been during that period. 21 I would say I've been at his home less 22 than a dozen times throughout. Could be a few more 23 than that, a few less. But it's in that range. It 24 would be, you know, once a year, maybe twice a year. 25 It stopped once I finished representing www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726895 829 1 him. Once I finished representing him, our nature 2 of our relationship changed, and I was there only in 3 specific connection with particular legal questions 4 that he had for me. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. When did you stop representing him? 7 A. Well, I wouldn't say stop representing 8 him. I'm still representing him, but when the case 9 was actively over was when he -- we made the plea 10 bargain and he went to jail. 11 Q. Let me make it clear. When is the date 12 that you just described as the date when you stopped 13 representing him but that was the date when your 14 relationship changed and you no longer went to 15 Jeffrey Epstein's home? 16 A. On a social basis. 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 MR. SCOTT: Well, I didn't understand the 20 question, to be honest with you. If the 21 witness did, fine. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You mixed the 23 timeframe. 24 Did you understand the question about the 25 timeframe he was asking about? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726896 830 1 A. I think I do, yeah. There came a time 2 when we made the deal -- 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. "The deal" being the nonprosecution 5 agreement? 6 A. The nonprosecution agreement. At that 7 point, my relationship with Jeffrey Epstein changed. 8 It was no longer primarily a social -- my 9 relationship with Jeffrey Epstein fit into three 10 categories. I was an acquaintance, an academic 11 acquaintance, somebody who I met with him on 12 academic matters. On occasion, he would ask my 13 advice about legal matters. And that was between 14 the time I first met him in the summer of Leslie 15 Wexner's 59th birthday, whatever that year is, and 16 the time that he told me that he had a legal -- that 17 he was being investigated by the Palm Beach police. 18 So that's phase one. 19 Phase two, I'm then primarily involved as 20 his lawyer between the time the investigation begins 21 and the time the deal is struck. 22 Once the deal is struck, we get into phase 23 three, and during that phase, I rarely see him. 24 It's only when he calls me and asks me for advice 25 about the case, something about -- I can't get into www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726897 831 1 what it is. But just general advice about the case. 2 I think that's a fair assessment of the three phases 3 of my relationship with him. 4 Q. Just so that I understand when phase two 5 ended, is it when the nonprosecution agreement was 6 signed in late 2007 or when Jeffrey Epstein pled 7 guilty in -- June 30, 2008? 8 A. I think once the non- -- 9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same instruction. 10 A. I think once the nonprosecution agreement 11 was reached in theory, once we had a handshake with 12 Sloman and with U.S. Attorney, and recall that the 13 deal was not only struck with Sloman and the U.S. 14 Attorney, but my recollection is it went all the way 15 up to Maine Justice in Washington that had 16 involvement in the case as well, once this deal was 17 struck in principle, my role changed dramatically. 18 I did not have a major role in drafting 19 the agreement, in implementing the agreement, in the 20 civil aspects of the agreement. At that point, my 21 relationship changed. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Were you one of the attorneys that was 24 communicating directly with Maine Justice? 25 A. I think I had. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726898 832 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. Adding in any settlement 3 conversations objection from yesterday as well. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Okay. So the degree to which -- haven't 6 you publicly made statements about what your role 7 was on behalf of Jeffrey Epstein with regard to the 8 nonprosecution agreement? 9 A. I don't have any current recollection that 10 I made any such statements. I said I thought we 11 got -- we negotiated very hard, that it was a very 12 tough negotiation. There was a series of 13 negotiations first with the State Attorney, then 14 with the Assistant U.S. Attorney, and then with the 15 head of criminal division and then with the U.S. 16 Attorney himself, Maine Justice, and ultimately a 17 deal was struck. And I may have described my role. 18 Q. A deal that you categorized as an arm's 19 length -- 20 A. Definitely arm's length. 21 Q. -- negotiation? 22 A. Yeah, very tough negotiation. 23 Q. Are you unable to tell me, then, what role 24 that you particularly played with respect to that 25 deal? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726899 833 1 A. Yes, I can tell you. 2 Q. You can or cannot? I can't hear you 3 because your hand is in front of your mouth. 4 A. Well, I need to know whether I'm entitled 5 to, but I can -- 6 MR. SIMPSON: Darren? Are you instructing 7 him not to answer? 8 MR. INDYKE: Yes. Yes. 9 MR. SCAROLA: What is the basis of the 10 instruction not to answer about communications 11 with an adversary? 12 MR. INDYKE: Settlement conversations, 13 settlement discussions. 14 MR. SCAROLA: So the privilege that you 15 are asserting is a confidential settlement 16 discussion privilege that precludes discovery 17 of the conversations, correct? 18 MR. INDYKE: Correct. 19 MR. SCAROLA: And you are instructing 20 Mr. Dershowitz not to answer on the basis of 21 that assertion? 22 MR. INDYKE: Yes, as well as 23 attorney-client -- 24 MR. SCAROLA: And as Mr. Dershowitz's 25 counsel -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726900 834 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Could you speak 2 up, Darren, again. 3 MR. INDYKE: Yes. And as well as 4 attorney-client privilege and work product to 5 the extent it requires -- a response requires 6 him to invade any of those. 7 MR. SCAROLA: Well, our position clearly 8 is that communications with an adversary cannot 9 be attorney-client privileged communications. 10 Communications with an adversary cannot be work 11 product communications. And we don't 12 believe -- we don't believe any valid privilege 13 can be asserted to preclude Mr. Dershowitz from 14 answering the question about communications 15 with an adversary. 16 So, I want to know whether in addition to 17 the objection that is being asserted on behalf 18 of Mr. Epstein, Mr. Dershowitz's counsel is 19 instructing Mr. Epstein [sic] not to answer 20 those questions. 21 MR. SCOTT: Say that again. 22 MR. SCAROLA: Yes. We know -- 23 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, I was reading an 24 exhibit. 25 MR. SCAROLA: We know what Mr. Epstein's www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726901 835 1 position is. I don't believe it to be well 2 founded. 3 I want to know whether you are instructing 4 Mr. Dershowitz that he is not to answer the 5 questions; and, if so, the basis of your 6 instruction. 7 MR. SCOTT: I'm not. He's following the 8 instructions of Mr. Epstein's counsel. 9 MR. SCAROLA: Well, he's not obliged to 10 follow the instructions of Mr. Epstein's 11 counsel. 12 MR. SCOTT: Well, I think he -- 13 MR. SCAROLA: Those instructions have no 14 basis in the law, and our position is they have 15 no basis in the law. You are not obliged to 16 instruct him not to answer if you believe they 17 have no basis in the law. 18 MR. SCOTT: I'm taking no position on 19 this. 20 MR. SCAROLA: Okay. So is he going to 21 answer the questions or not? 22 MR. SCOTT: He's not going to answer -- 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on, hang 24 on, hang on a second. 25 So I would say the following: We can put www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726902 836 1 this in the category of the issues that have to 2 be dealt with subsequent, and I will overrule 3 the objection. 4 However, I will share that I have had an 5 opportunity to read the 11th Circuit opinion, 6 and I would suggest that the -- particularly 7 the negotiation and the settlement privilege as 8 asserted runs contrary to that opinion as I've 9 read it. 10 So, at least to preserve the privilege for 11 now, I'll overrule the objection and place it 12 in those -- that set of issues that you will 13 have to address later and will reserve. But I 14 would suggest to the lawyers -- 15 MR. EDWARDS: Overrule or sustain? 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to 17 overrule the objection. 18 MR. INDYKE: Your Honor, if I may respond. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 20 MR. INDYKE: That 11th Circuit decision is 21 a decision regarding -- I believe regarding 22 federal rules, not Florida rules. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yeah, I'm aware 24 of the distinction. And that's why I'm going 25 to allow you not -- I'm going to allow the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726903 837 1 1 witness not to answer and allow that to be 2 reserved for later on for the decision around 3 the set of privilege issues that have been 4 raised in the last day and a half. 5 THE WITNESS: Including the privilege 6 issue raised by Sigrid McCawley. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 8 second. Including -- there are four or five 9 privilege issues that have been raised 10 throughout the series of this deposition, and I 11 want to preserve it for the Plaintiffs so they 12 can deal with that either in front of me or in 13 front of the judge. And -- after more fully 14 briefed. 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can we add to 16 that the McCawley privilege? 17 MR. INDYKE: Your Honor, just one other 18 thing for the record. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 20 second. Darren, hang on one second. 21 MR. INDYKE: Yes, sir. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That is 23 either party can raise whatever they want, 24 including Ms. McCawley. I'll let that stand on 25 its own. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726904 838 1 Darren, go ahead. You were going to say 2 something. 3 MR. INDYKE: The only point I wanted to 4 raise in response to Mr. Scarola's point that 5 disclosure to an adversary would never be 6 privileged is that in any settlement 7 communication, the settlement is with an 8 adversary. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understand the 10 distinction and I understand Mr. Scarola's 11 point. And so since I am going to basically 12 move forward with the deposition without having 13 the witness provide an answer to the question 14 right now, pending a future decision on these 15 set of issues, so we can move forward with the 16 deposition. 17 MS. McCAWLEY: And I just want to state on 18 the record that the sanction motions that we 19 have relating to the seal that's already been 20 granted is set for February 2, so the Court 21 will be hearing this issue on that date. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: And that -- I'll 23 await Judge Lynch's direction if it impacts 24 anything within my role. 25 MS. McCAWLEY: Thank you. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726905 839 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. I may be able to shortcut a portion of 3 this, then, because given that this litigation 4 arises out of a pleading filed in the Crime Victims 5 Rights Act case and relating to any role that 6 Mr. Dershowitz played in the negotiation of the 7 nonprosecution agreement, I have a long series of 8 questions regarding what exactly he did, what 9 exactly he did not do, who exactly he communicated 10 with at Maine Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office, 11 meetings that he attended, the positions that he 12 took, all of those things, and rather than waste our 13 time going through every one of those questions to 14 be met this objection, if that's what the objection 15 is going to be, I'll skip to another portion. 16 Is that what I'm hearing? In terms of are 17 we taking that whole section of questions that is 18 going to lead to a privilege objection and putting 19 it in this basket to take up with the judge and see 20 if that's an issue to comment on later? 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I would say it 22 this way, I can only rule on the question that 23 is pending, first of all. 24 Second of all, as practical matter, the 25 answer is probably yes, considering that the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726906 840 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 deposition is not going to conclude today and so you're going to have to reset Mr. Dershowitz for a time in the future that is likely to be after you've received some other guidance on these issues. Fair enough? MR. EDWARDS: Yes, fair enough. Thank you. 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: As a 9 practical -- you know. 10 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. I'll test out a 11 couple and see where we are and move on. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: There you go. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Who were the people at Maine Justice that 15 you communicated with on behalf of Jeffrey Epstein 16 at any stage during the negotiations? 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. Who were the targets of the 21 U.S. Attorney's investigation, as you understood, 22 during the negotiation that you participated in on 23 behalf of Jeffrey Epstein? 24 A. Not me. I was not one of them. 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726907 841 1 instruction. 2 A. I can tell you one who was -- it's not me. 3 MR. SCOTT: He's making an objection. 4 MR. EDWARDS: To the extent that he's 5 answering that question by excluding anyone, I 6 am making the argument right now that he has 7 waived any privilege objection whatsoever to 8 that question, and I'm asking him now to 9 disclose the names of all of the individuals 10 who were -- not were not -- were targets of the 11 investigation. 12 MR. INDYKE: I said Mr. Epstein has not 13 waived any objection 14 COURT REPORTER: Mr. Indyke, I can't hear 15 you. 16 MR. INDYKE: I said, I'm sorry, but 17 Mr. Epstein has not waived his objection 18 despite any statements Mr. Dershowitz may have 19 made. 20 MR. SCAROLA: And can we assume that on 21 all occasions when the instruction is coming 22 from Mr. Epstein's counsel that Mr. Epstein 23 [sic] is not to answer, that you are joining in 24 those objections? 25 MR. SCOTT: You know, you've characterized www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726908 842 1 me twice incorrectly, Mr. Scarola. All I'm 2 doing is this: He represents this gentleman. 3 This gentleman's lawyer is telling him not to 4 answer. Okay? I'm telling him follow that 5 lawyer's advice until there is a ruling. 6 You put me in a Catch-22. What am I 7 supposed to do? Rule on it and say you can 8 answer it and overrule this man telling him 9 this? 10 MR. SCAROLA: Well, there may be 11 occasion -- 12 MR. SCOTT: I'm not joining in their 13 position. I'm merely saying follow the 14 lawyer's instructions until there's a legal 15 ruling on February 2nd, and then we'll be glad 16 to come back and answer them, depending on what 17 Judge Lynch says. That's all I'm saying to 18 you. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 20 second. Before we go back to 21 MR. SCOTT: I've said it twice. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: And there has 23 been -- there have been times when I found the 24 objection to be -- I overruled the objection, 25 and the witness answered regardless. And so we www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726909 843 1 need to take them one question at a time. You 2 can either deal this in the subsequent sitting 3 of Mr. Dershowitz or we could do it now. It's 4 up to you. 5 MR. SCAROLA: Well, let me explain the 6 concern that I have and the reason why I want 7 the record to be clear in this regard. 8 There are -- there is a party that is 9 Professor Cassell and there is an attorney, 10 General Reyes, who are here from Utah today at 11 some considerable expense. And there may very 12 well be a motion for sanctions that will 13 include a request that expenses associated with 14 the retaking of Mr. Dershowitz's deposition be 15 assessed against those responsible for having 16 raised improper objections requiring the 17 continuation of the deposition. 18 If you are not joining in what I consider 19 to be spurious objections that have no 20 reasonable basis, then it would not be 21 appropriate to seek sanctions against you. But 22 if you are joining in those objections, then it 23 would be appropriate to seek sanctions in the 24 form of costs. 25 I'm only trying to make sure that the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726910 844 1 record is clear as to whether you are joining 2 in the objections or you are aren't joining in 3 the objections. 4 MR. SCOTT: I thought I had made that 5 clear before, and I've now made it clear a 6 second time. 7 MR. SCAROLA: That is that you are not 8 joining in the objections? 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 10 The way people make objections, Mr. Scarola, as 11 you understand it, and I understand it, and 12 everybody in the room, is when any lawyer 13 objects, they put it on the record. If there 14 is not an objection made by a particular 15 lawyer, then we -- I don't think there's an 16 assumption that could be made one way or 17 another that they're joining or not. 18 MR. SCAROLA: Well, the problem is that 19 the witness is not responding to the question. 20 THE WITNESS: That's a lie. I'm 21 responding to every question that the special 22 master has asked me to respond to. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Guys, guys, let 24 me stop you. I understand the Catch-22. I 25 understand that this issue should be flushed www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726911 845 1 out at a hearing, likely in front of Judge 2 Lynch, and then we'll get clarity on this 3 issue. 4 I will also suggest to the parties that 5 from where I sit, you've asked me to come in as 6 special master. I appreciate the delicacies of 7 the issue of the privileged communication, 8 however it is asserted, whatever privilege 9 particularly is being asserted, and I want to 10 be careful and as considerate as I can. 11 And so -- but unlike you, I have not lived 12 with this case. And so I'm trying to make the 13 best calls I can and also preserve the record 14 for you to take up at a later hearing where 15 these issues can get flushed out either by 16 brief and argument in a more fuller fashion. 17 MR. SCAROLA: And I apologize if anything 18 that I have said suggests that you have done 19 anything except properly fulfill your 20 responsibilities. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no. 22 MR. SCAROLA: So I want to be clear that 23 my purpose is to be sure we have as clear a 24 record as possible as to who is asserting which 25 objections. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726912 846 1 And it's my position that if Mr. Epstein's 2 counsel raises an objection that Mr. Scott or 3 Mr. Simmons considers to be baseless, then they 4 have an obligation to tell their client, this 5 is a question that you should answer. 6 If they're not telling their client, this 7 is a question you should answer, I think it's 8 reasonable to assume that they are recognizing 9 at least the colorable validity of the 10 objection. That's the only point I'm trying to 11 make. I made my statement, and we can move on 12 from here. 13 MR. SCOTT: And I will repeat my position. 14 My client has been instructed by the lawyer 15 representing a man he continues to represent 16 that he should not answer these questions, and 17 I believe that he should not answer them until 18 the Court gets a ruling. 19 And the special master himself has 20 indicated that we need to get this resolved and 21 it's delicate issues. That's all I'm saying, 22 Jack. 23 This is going to be done on the 24 2nd anyway. You're coming back for another 25 depo. We all know that, so let's get it www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726913 847 1 flushed out, let's get it ruled on, and then we 2 can come back and finish it off if the judge 3 says that. That's all I'm saying. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You're going to 5 need extra time with him anyway. 6 MR. SCOTT: You're putting me in a 7 Catch-22. You actually need a rule as a judge. 8 I can't do that. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's understand 10 the practicality of it that I'm not so sure 11 that you're going to get done today. In fact, 12 I'm fairly certain now that you're not. 13 Notwithstanding these open issues around 14 privilege. 15 So, to that extent, let's see if we can 16 continue to plow through as best we can. 17 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 18 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Thank you. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. You have defined your relationship with 21 Jeffrey Epstein using three categories that I wrote 22 down as, No. 1, academic; No. 2, lawyer; and No. 3, 23 subsequent to nonprosecution agreement, rarely see 24 him. 25 A. Sure. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726914 848 1 Q. Is it fair -- is a reasonable presumption 2 that in the category No. 3, subsequent to Jeffrey 3 Epstein pleading guilty and that case resolving, the 4 criminal case resolving, that you have not been to 5 his New York, Manhattan mansion since then? 6 A. No, that's not the case. I have been, 7 yeah. Yeah. 8 Q. How many times in category 3, then, have 9 you been to Jeffrey Epstein's Manhattan mansion? 10 A. I would say maybe twice, maybe -- maybe 11 twice. Maybe three, in that range. It's been how 12 many years now? It's been nine years or eight 13 years. Could be a little bit more than that. 14 Certainly no more than once a year. Certainly no 15 more than that. Probably less than that. 16 Q. And when you were at Mr. Epstein's 17 New York home subsequent to his guilty plea, were 18 you there in the capacity as his lawyer discussing 19 attorney-client information or were you there in a 20 nonlawyer capacity? 21 A. As a lawyer. 22 Q. Okay. Was any of your communications with 23 Jeffrey Epstein during that period of time we just 24 defined non-privileged communications? 25 A. Yes. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726915 849 1 Q. Can you share with me the nonprivileged 2 communications that you have had with Jeffrey 3 Epstein since his guilty plea in June 2008? 4 A. We discussed the Middle East. There was a 5 map on his blackboard that had been drawn in chalk 6 by Ehud Barak, who had visited his home, and we 7 discussed the potential for how the Middle East 8 conflict could be settled. 9 Q. When was that discussion? 10 A. Probably six or seven -- six, seven, eight 11 years ago, something like that. 12 Q. So are we talking about 2009, 2010 is this 13 discussion? 14 A. No, I don't remember exactly what year it 15 would be. It could be around there. Ehud Barak was 16 no longer in office. So we'd have to figure out 17 when he was not in office. 18 Q. Does it help if I can tell you that 19 Jeffrey Epstein pled guilty June 30, 2008, was 20 confined for a year and then was placed on 21 probation? Was it during the time that he was 22 supposed to be confined? Was it during the time of 23 his probation? Or is it sometime after all of that 24 was over? 25 A. I don't remember. I do remember that he www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726916 850 1 called me to come over for a legal reason. We had a 2 legal discussion, and then he showed me the 3 blackboard and we had a discussion that was not 4 privileged. Had nothing to do with this case. 5 Q. Was Ehud Barak at his house as well during 6 this discussion that you were having with Jeffrey 7 Epstein? 8 A. He had been at his house. I don't recall 9 specifically if he was there at the time. We may 10 have said hello in passing. I don't recall. 11 I think -- I can tell you this. Part of 12 the discussion occurred when he was not there 13 because we were referring to his map and discussing 14 what this meant and what that meant. But I think we 15 may have crossed paths, him going out and me coming 16 in. 17 MR. SCOTT: At some point, we'd like to 18 take a break. 19 MR. EDWARDS: I'm just going wrap up on 20 this particular meeting, and then we'll take a 21 break. 22 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. The time when that you're discussing where 25 you and Jeffrey Epstein were reviewing a map, is www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726917 851 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 academic 1 this a map that was drawn by Ehud Barak? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And is this on a blackboard 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- that is Jeffrey Epstein's blackboard? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Where in the home is this blockboard 8 located? A. Okay. As you walk into his house, there's a little office on the left side. And generally I've been called by his secretary, I go and I sit in the office, and then she tells me that Jeffrey's ready to see me and I walk in through the hallway into a dining room. And he's usually sitting at the desk in the dining room and there's a waiter person sitting there, hovering around. And that was the room where this blackboard And that's where seminars where he was. he used to have his would invite Nobel Prize-winning scientists and professors and other people to have sessions. I didn't attend any of those once the -- once the deal been made, once I terminated my role as his lawyer. Q. This visit to Jeffrey Epstein's house where you discussed the drawing on the blackboard, www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726918 8:2 1 do you know whether Ehud Barak was staying at 2 Jeffrey Epstein's house? 3 A. I don't. I don't. 4 Q. Do you know whether Ehud Barak, in the 5 days just preceding that, had been staying at 6 Jeffrey Epstein's house? 7 A. I don't. I have no idea. 8 Q. Do you know how long Ehud Barak had been 9 at Jeffrey Epstein's house? 10 A. I don't know that he had been. All I know 11 that he had been there for enough time to draw the 12 map, and I may have -- I've known him for a long 13 time. I may have said hello to him on the way in 14 and out. I don't remember that specifically. I 15 just remember that he had been there and I had asked 16 about the map and we had the conversation. 17 MR. EDWARDS: You want to take a break? 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The 19 time is 2:22 p.m. 20 (Recess was held from 2:22 p.m. until 2:36 p.m.) 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record. 22 The time is 2:36 p.m. 23 MR. EDWARDS: I'm going to go ahead and 24 put this on the record that I'm turning over 25 the video transcript from the Miami Bench www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726919 853 1 & Bar. 2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Edwards. 3 MR. SIMPSON: Thank you. 4 A. Can I correct one of my answers on the 5 record? You asked me if I was aware of a police 6 report, and I had no chance to read it. I've now 7 had a chance to read it, and it is noncriminal, and 8 it says she simply wanted to document the incident. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Were you aware of that? 11 A. I was not aware of that. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. And I am now aware of that. It's a 14 noncriminal report and she wants it for the record. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are you 16 referring to Exhibit 28? 17 MR. EDWARDS: Exhibit 28, which is Miami 18 Beach Police Case Report Detail. 19 A. But not a criminal report. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Okay. Either way, you were not aware of 22 that report having been made? 23 A. No, no, no, I was aware that there was a 24 police report being made. I never saw the police 25 report. I looked at it now for the first time -- www.phippereporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726920 854 1 Q. Understood. 2 A. -- during the recess. 3 Q. Okay. Going back to the meeting we were 4 just discussing between yourself and Jeffrey Epstein 5 in Jeffrey Epstein's home, what year -- what's your 6 best approximation for the year that that happened? 7 A. It would just be a guess. I would -- 8 Q. Okay. You don't know? 9 A. I don't think I know. I could probably 10 find out. 11 Q. Okay. How long you were at Jeffrey 12 Epstein's home during that meeting? 13 A. My general meetings with Jeffrey Epstein 14 in the post deal period were about half an hour. 15 Q. And -- 16 A. They were business; in, out, done. 17 Q. Was there anyone else in the room with you 18 and Jeffrey Epstein during this meeting? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And who was that? 21 A. There was a wait person who would bring 22 coffee and refill my coffee and ask if there was 23 anything I needed, and then periodically a secretary 24 would come in and hand Jeffrey a note and he would 25 look at the note and scribble a note or decide to www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726921 855 1 make a phone call back. 2 Q. Do you know the name of the waiter or the 3 secretary? 4 A. Waiter, I never knew the name. The 5 secretary, I would know the name if it were given to 6 me, but I don't know it offhand. I can describe her 7 to you. 8 Q. Okay. What's the description? 9 A. She's a very attractive 45-year-old. 10 She's been his secretary for quite some time. And 11 I'm guessing the age, but it's in that range. Thin, 12 blondish hair. 13 Q. Is it Lesley Groff? 14 A. It could be. It could be, yes. Probably 15 was, yeah. 16 Q. And did you speak with Lesley Groff while 17 you were there? 18 A. I would usually go in, I would say hi, and 19 she'd say Jeffrey's busy, wait. And I would wait in 20 the little office. There would be books. I would 21 peruse a book. And then she would say, Jeffrey's 22 ready to see you, and I would go into his -- he used 23 it kind of as an office, an office-dining room area. 24 Q. Was Lesley Groff also a target of the 25 federal criminal investigation? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726922 856 1 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 3 MR. SIMPSON: Darren? 4 MR. INDYKE: Yes. 5 MR. SIMPSON: Are you instructing on that 6 question? 7 MR. INDYKE: I am, on the same basis. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. And -- 10 MR. SCOTT: If you have a hard time 11 hearing, please speak and let us know, will 12 you? Because you got to tell my client what 13 your position is so he can understand it before 14 he responds. 15 MR. INDYKE: I understand. 16 MR. EDWARDS: Just so I am clear on what 17 privilege is -- 18 MR. INDYKE: I would be objecting on 19 several projects, including attorney-client, 20 work product, I think probably those two, yes. 21 On those two. And I would instruct not to 22 answer. 23 MR. EDWARDS: As to the question of was 24 Lesley Groff also a target of the criminal 25 federal investigation, the objection is www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726923 857 1 attorney-client privilege and the witness is 2 being instructed not to answer? 3 MR. INDYKE: And work product, because 4 Mr. Dershowitz would not have discovered any 5 such information unless it was in connection 6 with his representation of Jeffrey. 7 A. And I'm also not sure 8 MR. SCOTT: Just 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Is Lesley Groff one of the named 11 coconspirators in the nonprosecution agreement that 12 is now a public document? 13 A. I don't remember. I remember only_ 14 I don't remember the other names. I 15 remember there were four of them and, of course, I 16 was not one of them. 17 Q. Was there anyone else at the home for this 18 meeting you are describing other than yourself, 19 Jeffrey Epstein, the waiter whose name you do not 20 know, and the secretary who we believe is Lesley 21 Groff? 22 A. There was also a guy, a big guy who I 23 think may have been a security guy, because I 24 remember he came to the door once and greeted me and 25 he looked to me like a security guy. And he was www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726924 858 1 kind of on the opposite side of where the office 2 was, and I would see him from time to time. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Let me interrupt for one 4 second. Professor, could you put your mic on. 5 THE WITNESS: Oh, I am so sorry. I 6 apologize. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: No problem. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of this person 10 you are describing as security? 11 A. I don't. 12 Q. Would you know it if I said it? 13 A. Try me. 14 Q. Igor Zinoviev? 15 A. No. 16 Q. It's not Igor? 17 A. No, no. And there was also a driver, 18 whose name if you give me, I will remember. I think 19 it has -- I think it's a Latino name. 20 Q. Jojo Fontenelle? 21 A. That's it. I have the ethnicity wrong, 22 but it was Jojo, yes. I never knew his last name. 23 Q. Is Jojo Fontenelle someone that you 24 understand worked for Jeffrey Epstein for a very 25 long time? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726925 859 1 A. I don't know for a very long time. I know 2 that on occasion when it was raining or something, 3 Jeffrey would ask Jojo to drive me back to my house 4 or something like that. So I was driven on maybe 5 one or two occasions by Jojo somewhere. That's 6 really all I know about. 7 Q. Have you ever talked with Jojo about 8 9 A. Of course not. I've never talked to 10 anybody about until 11 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 12 A. -- until these false accusations. 13 MR. SCOTT: Is there an objection? 14 MR. INDYKE: There is an objection. To 15 the extent that response to that question would 16 require Alan to disclose anything in connection 17 with his representation of Jeffrey Epstein, 18 then I would instruct Alan not to answer the 19 question. 20 MR. SCOTT: So if it's a nonprivileged 21 area, please answer it. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: How would a 23 conversation with Jojo be privileged? 24 MR. INDYKE: It might be privileged if 25 Alan is investigating, for example, what Jojo www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726926 860 1 recalls about or something 2 like that. I don't know. 3 A. I had no privileged conversations. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. After these allegations were made, haven't 7 you already testified as recently as yesterday that 8 you did call Jeffrey Epstein? 9 A. Yes, but I had no contact with Jojo. I 10 have no idea whether Jojo still works for him or 11 anything. I've not been to his -- I've not had any 12 contact with him, no. 13 Q. When is the first time you met Jojo? 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. Do you remember if Jojo was working for 16 Jeffrey Epstein the first time that you met Jeffrey 17 Epstein? 18 A. I have no idea. I may have seen him three 19 times in my life, Jojo. 20 Q. Okay. We're right now still in what 21 you've placed as category No. 3, which would place 22 time period of June 2008 through present. 23 A. I would put it a little back further than 24 2008. Probably at the time the handshake deal was 25 struck with the U.S. Attorney's Office is when the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726927 861 1 nature of my relationship changed. 2 Q. I'm going to describe some events for you 3 just from what I know. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And only so that you can help me to 6 understand when the date actually is. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Here are the things that I know. In late 9 September September 27, 2007, the nonprosecution 10 agreement is signed. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. In December there's an addendum to it that 13 was signed but later not attached. In January 14 there's an appeal to CEOS in Washington. So I'm 15 wondering 16 A. In January? 17 Q. Right. So I'm wondering if it is that 18 January 2008 period -- 19 A. That's probably pretty close, yeah. 20 That's probably pretty close. I would have been 21 involved in any appeal. 22 Q. Okay. Okay. So at least to the last 23 point of an appeal -- I call it appeal, for lack of 24 a better word, but taking it up to Washington, 25 you're involved through whatever that point is? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726928 862 1 A. Yeah. I mean, my role is primarily to 2 provide legal work. I did the legal part of 3 everything. I wrote the law part of all the briefs. 4 I was not in charge of the factual investigation. 5 That's not my expertise. My expertise is on 6 statutory construction, constitutional law and 7 precedence, and I wrote all the parts of all the 8 pleadings pretty much that dealt with any of those 9 issues. 10 Q. Don't you agree, though, that you made 11 presentations to the State Attorney's Office and 12 perhaps others about some of the underlying facts 13 for the victims and their credibility? 14 A. At the first phase when it was just me and 15 local lawyers, and it was regarded as -- 16 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Sorry, guys, I 17 just got back to my desk. Are we talking about 18 discussion with the U.S. Attorney's Office, 19 with the U.S. Attorney? 20 MR. SCOTT: No. I don't know if we are or 21 not. 22 MR. INDYKE: Can you repeat the question, 23 please. 24 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. The statement was 25 made that he was only involved -- at least my www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726929 863 1 understanding of the comment was that he was 2 only involved in the legal aspects of it, and 3 so -- 4 THE WITNESS: I said primarily involved. 5 MR. EDWARDS: So my question was, wouldn't 6 you agree that at some point in time, you met 7 with the State Attorney's Office and discussed 8 with them the factual background of some of the 9 victims? 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection regarding work 11 product and also regarding settlement 12 communications. And instruct not to answer. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Okay. And I assume at this point in time, 15 we're going along with that instruction? 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I don't 17 don't -- based on the question, I'm not so sure 18 he could answer the question outside of the 19 privileged information that's being claimed, so 20 yeah. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Okay. In addition to the one occasion 23 that you've already described for us, in phase 24 three, which we've described as sometime in 2008 25 through present, what is the other -- what is the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726930 864 1 next time that you were at Jeffrey Epstein's home in 2 Manhattan? 3 A. There were just a couple of times when I 4 would get a phone call and be asked to come over to 5 discuss a legal issue, and I did. But I can't give 6 you times and dates. I might be able to check them. 7 I might have kept time records, although I don't 8 think I was billing him at that time. But I might 9 have time records. 10 Q. Within -- after January of 2015 when you 11 contacted Jeffrey Epstein, that was in response to 12 the allegations that were made against you, right? 13 A. He contacted -- to my recollection, he 14 contacted me. What happened is I first got a phone 15 call from one of his lawyers. And then I got a 16 phone call from him. 17 Q. And your discussions, so that I'm 18 understanding, with Jeffrey Epstein at that time, 19 the purpose of those discussions was for you to 20 gather information from him to assist you in the 21 defense of the allegations against you? 22 A. In part. 23 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Common interest. 24 And instruct not to answer. 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726931 865 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. I'm -- just so that I'm clear, the 3 objection may stand, but just so that I'm clear, I'm 4 talking about a circumstance where you are the 5 client, not you were the lawyer. And I want to know 6 what the communications are between you and Jeffrey 7 Epstein where you are the client asking him 8 information for the purposes of defending yourself 9 against the allegation. 10 A. I was always both the lawyer and the 11 client. I think I already said that. 12 MR. INDYKE: The objection stands. 13 A. I was always both the lawyer and the 14 client. 15 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Common interest, 16 attorney-client and work product. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. Can you tell me any other times in phase 3 19 of your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, as 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Are there any other people who were previously defined, when you had -- when you met with Jeffrey Epstein at his New York home and discussed any other nonprivileged information? A. I can't think of any other nonprivileged discussion. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726932 866 1 present at Jeffrey Epstein's home when you were 2 having any of your privileged discussions? 3 A. Waiter, secretary, security, staff. 4 Q. Where was the staff at the times when you 5 were having these privileged discussions with 6 Jeffrey Epstein? 7 A. In their various places. The security 8 person in his place, the secretary in her place, and 9 a waiter walking in and out. We generally stopped 10 any substantive discussion when the waiter or the 11 waitress, the waitperson was pouring my coffee. 12 Q. Was or or 13 Ghislaine Maxwell in the home at any of these times 14 during phase 3 of your relationship with Jeffrey 15 Epstein? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. Were any of Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriends 18 in the home during that time? 19 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. What would we describe as the or what 21 would we define as the time period of phase 1 of 22 your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? 23 A. From August of the year that Leslie Wexner 24 turned 59 -- let's see, he's a year older than I am, 25 and I would have turned 59 in 2007 -- so this is www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726933 867 1 probably the summer of 2006. 2 Q. Ninety-six? 3 A. Ninety-six. 4 Q. I'm with you. I'm keeping track of the 5 math. 6 A. Put back a decade. Ninety-six, so it was 7 probably the summer of '96, and he came to the 8 Vineyard at the suggestion -- to visit a number of 9 people, but visited with me at the suggestion of 10 Lady Rothschild, whose name was then Lynn Forester. 11 Q. Is Lynn Forester still a friend of Jeffrey 12 Epstein? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Was Lynn Forester then in 1996 a friend of 15 Jeffrey Epstein? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have insight into the reason why 18 Lynn Forester is no longer a friend of Jeffrey 19 Epstein? 20 MR. SIMPSON: Darren. 21 A. I'm waiting for an objection. If none 22 comes -- 23 MR. INDYKE: I'm sorry. Can you repeat 24 the question? Restate the question, please. 25 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking the witness for www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726934 868 1 the reason why Lynn Forester and Jeffrey 2 Epstein are no longer friends. 3 MR. INDYKE: Oh. Objection on the basis 4 of attorney-client, work product. And I 5 instruct him not to answer. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. Have you talked to Lynn Forester or anyone 8 other than Jeffrey Epstein about the reason why Lynn 9 Forester and Jeffrey Epstein are no longer friends? 10 MR. SCOTT: If it's nonprivileged, please 11 answer. 12 A. Yeah, I have spoken to Lynn Forester about 13 a number of subjects. I don't recall speaking to 14 her about that subject. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Do you have the ability to answer the 17 question as to why Lynn Forester and Jeffrey Epstein 18 are no longer friends outside of privileged 19 information? 20 A. No, I do not, no. 21 Q. And you've told me -- 22 MR. INDYKE: Hello? 23 MR. EDWARDS: There's no question pending 24 yet. 25 MR. INDYKE: Sorry. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726935 869 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. And you've told me of some nonprivileged 3 communication that you've had with Jeffrey Epstein 4 and, obviously, you can't tell me of privileged 5 communication you've had with Jeffrey Epstein 6 because it relates to your acting as Jeffrey 7 Epstein's attorney when that communication was had. 8 So am I correct in understanding that the 9 information that would give you the ability to 10 answer the question why Lynn Forester is no longer 11 friendly with Jeffrey Epstein is privileged 12 communication? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The first time that you met Jeffrey 15 Epstein, was that in Martha's Vineyard? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was that at your place at Martha's 18 Vineyard? 19 A. Yes. He came to my house on Martha's 20 Vineyard. 21 Q. And who did he come with the first time? 22 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 23 Q. What did you understand at that point in 24 time for Ghislaine Maxwell's role to be in Jeffrey 25 Epstein's life? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726936 870 1 A. I thought she was his girlfriend. That 2 was my assumption at the time. 3 Q. Was your assumption wrong? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Okay. The way that you said it, I thought 6 maybe -- 7 A. No. I don't -- I never -- they didn't 8 hold hands. 9 Q. There is nothing since that date that's 10 changed the assumption that you had at that time, 11 which is that she was his girlfriend in 1996? 12 MR. INDYKE: Objection -- 13 A. Nothing on privilege. 14 MR. INDYKE: -- based upon 15 attorney-client, work product, common interest. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. Was anybody else with Jeffrey Epstein and 18 Ghislaine Maxwell on this first visit to Martha's 19 Vineyard? 20 A. His pilots. 21 Q. Who were they? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Do you know Larry Visosky? 24 A. I remember meeting a pilot named Larry. 25 Q. Other than his pilots, anybody else? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726937 871 1 A. No. None that I know of. He came to my 2 house. They had a car at the airport. They took 3 the car back to the airport, my recollection, maybe 4 took a cab, I don't remember, but I know he was 5 visiting other people. So I don't know whether he 6 did or didn't have anybody else with him. But when 7 they came to my house, it was just him and 8 Ghislaine. 9 Q. Okay. I'm going to go back to this, but I 10 wanted to get something before we finished today, 11 which is can you provide me all the telephone 12 numbers that you used to call -- not on your end -- 13 that you called to reach Jeffrey Epstein in phase 1; 14 that is, prior to your representation of Jeffrey 15 Epstein in the 2005 investigation? 16 A. I will check to see. 17 MR. INDYKE: Objection to the extent that 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information is privileged, attorney-client communication or those times where Alan has testified where Jeffrey has asked him for specific instances of legal advice. A. I can tell you this, that early on, like the first six months of my relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, there was no privilege. That is, probably took at least six months before he asked me any www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726938 872 1 questions that would be legal in nature. 2 The first six months, we talked about 3 science, we talked about academia, we talked about 4 Harvard, we talked about Leslie Wexner, we talked 5 about various subjects. 6 It was only later on in time that, in 7 retrospect, I think back, and I say these are 8 questions that were legal in nature and he was 9 asking me them as a lawyer friend of his. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. Okay. 12 MR. INDYKE: Then my objection -- to be 13 clear, my objection is to the extent that you 14 got that information in communications with him 15 during the time where he was seeking legal 16 representation on particular questions for you, 17 I would object to that information. 18 A. I understand. That's why I wanted to 19 clarify there was a period of time that that wasn't 20 true. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. And I'm just asking for his actual 23 telephone numbers. 24 A. I'll check. I don't have them -- 25 Q. Just so that my record is clear -- my www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726939 873 1 question is clear for the record, I'm only asking 2 for you to provide Jeffrey Epstein's telephone 3 numbers that you would call him on during the period 4 of time prior to your representation in 2005. 5 A. Okay. I would say 99 percent of the time, 6 he called me. So it was mostly a one-way phone 7 situation, but I'm sure I have some numbers that I 8 called or called back, yeah. 9 Q. Did you have his telephone number -- 10 A. I had some numbers, yeah, and I can 11 provide those if I can find them. 12 Q. In fact, I think I've seen a piece of your 13 journal 14 A. Probably has the numbers, yeah. 15 Q. It has all of them blacked out, so is 16 there -- 17 A. Okay. That's no secret. I can give them 18 to you. 19 MR. SIMPSON: Just for the record, 20 Counsel, anything withheld as privilege would 21 be on our privilege log, and counsel will 22 address that. 23 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Yeah, I'm not asking 24 about anything on the privilege log. 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726940 874 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. All phone numbers with -- what would you 3 have to do to get me all the phone numbers that you 4 had for Jeffrey Epstein? 5 A. Almost certainly just have my lawyers 6 unblank out the pages. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I don't keep old phone books. 9 Q. Did you have -- 10 MR. INDYKE: Would you be using those 11 phone numbers for the purpose of publishing 12 them? Because I would have an objection to 13 that. 14 MR. EDWARDS: No. 15 MR. INDYKE: Confidential information. 16 MR. EDWARDS: I will agree not to publish 17 his phone numbers, especially his old phone 18 numbers from 1997. 19 MR. INDYKE: Thank you. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Did you have telephone numbers for 22 Ghislaine Maxwell? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you have a telephone number for 25 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726941 875 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 No. Did you have a direct telephone number for Of course not. MR. INDYKE: Objection. Objection as to actually all three to the extent that Alan has 7 that information based upon privileged 8 information. 9 A. I don't have the information, so it can't 10 be privileged. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Did you have a telephone number for 13 Jeffrey Epstein in Albuquerque? 14 A. No. There came a point in time -- no, I 15 never did, no. No, I don't think I ever did. 16 Q. Did you have a telephone number for 17 Jeffrey Epstein at his residence in the island? 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection and same 19 request as to confidentiality, if you do. 20 A. I don't think so. Generally, I recall one 21 number, I would call his secretary. I did not -- 22 for example, did not have a cell phone number for 23 him. I would call his secretary if I needed him. 24 It was very rare that I called. And the secretary 25 would then call back. So I did not have numbers for www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726942 876 1 his various places that I can remember. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Did you have a phone number for Jeffrey 4 Epstein's cell phone? 5 A. I don't think so, no, I don't. Certainly 6 during that period, I did not. 7 Q. When you would call Jeffrey Epstein's 8 secretary, what is the name of the secretary or 9 secretaries that you would speak to? 10 A. Don't remember. The Groff person perhaps, 11 but I'm not positive. I just don't remember. 12 Q. Other than Lesley Groff -- 13 A. I had a general number and I would call 14 that number. It was his business number, and she 15 would then arrange to have him call. Jeffrey is not 16 available, he'll call back. And then would call 17 back. That was the general way in which I got in 18 touch with him. 19 Q. Is Jeffrey Epstein somebody who, 20 throughout your relationship, has traveled 21 frequently? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And so did you have a telephone number for 24 his airplanes? 25 A. No, of course not. I didn't have that www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726943 877 1 kind of a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. I had 2 a one-number generally business number and would I 3 call that and then I would get a call back. 4 Q. Have you seen your -- the entry that 5 Jeffrey Epstein had for you in his journal? 6 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 7 A. I looked at all the entries he had -- 8 usually had 25 numbers for everybody. I don't know 9 where he would have gotten those or how he used 10 them, but he apparently had numbers for everybody. 11 Q. That's what I was going to ask you -- 12 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Alan, are you 13 basing this upon information that you got from 14 Jeffrey or from information published by -- 15 A. No, information that I got through the 16 discovery. 17 MR. INDYKE: Okay. Thank you. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Have you looked at the entry for yourself, 20 Alan Dershowitz? 21 A. Do you have it here? I would like to look 22 at it. But I was always amazed by how many numbers 23 he had for everybody. 24 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 25 Exhibit 29.) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726944 878 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. I'll show you what's 29. 3 A. I have to look at that. 4 MR. INDYKE: If you're going to ask Alan 5 to pinpoint specific numbers, I would ask that 6 you not publish them in the deposition, if we 7 can figure out a way to do that. A telephone 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 number, not a public record or something -- MR. EDWARDS: I'll tell you this, I've isolated the page so as not to publish any more numbers than necessary. And I would agree, if that's something that Mr. Dershowitz wants, that this entire page be sealed or protected so as not to unnecessarily disclose private 15 information of others. 16 A. There are some of these numbers that are 17 still valid. I notice he has my number, he has my 18 wife's number, my wife's car number. I mean -- as 19 to everybody, he has just dozen of numbers. He's 20 obviously obsessed with keeping everybody's possible 21 numbers. But it was a one-way street. I think I 22 only had -- I think I only had one of his numbers. 23 I used one of his numbers when I wanted to call him. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. And that one number that you had, can you www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726945 879 1 tell me, was that a New York number, a Florida 2 number, a Virgin Islands number? 3 A. New York number. 4 Q. New York number? 5 A. Yes, to his office on Madison Avenue. 6 Q. The only number that you had for Jeffrey 7 Epstein that you remember? 8 A. That's my recollection. I may have had 9 others. 10 Q. That you remember was a New York telephone 11 number? 12 A. New York telephone number, yeah. 13 Q. Okay. And looking at the exhibit have 14 you had a chance to review it so I can look at it? 15 A. Yeah, you can have it. 16 Q. I think that you made a statement, I just 17 want too clarify for the record that he had all 18 these numbers for everybody? 19 A. Apparently, yeah. 20 Q. But if we look at this page, let's just be 21 fair and accurate, he doesn't have a lot of numbers 22 for everybody, does he? 23 A. He has a lot of numbers for Jimmy Kane, I 24 notice. He has -- 25 Q. For instance, let's say for www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726946 880 1 [phonetic]? 2 MR. SCAROLA: Do you want another copy? 3 A. I have no idea who she is. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. I'm not asking you to identify who any of 6 these people are. I just want the characterization 7 of the number of numbers that Mr. Epstein has for 8 people just to be correct. 9 A. I imagine it would depend on how many 10 numbers people have. I have an office, I have three 11 homes, I have -- you know, so he would have more 12 numbers for me. If he has somebody who he buys eggs 13 from, they might have just a home number and another 14 number. 15 So my feeling is that Jeffrey had 16 everybody's number that he possibly could get, 17 that -- reviewing the whole thing, that's the 18 impression I certainly got. 19 Q. Well, am I correct in presuming you would 20 have no idea, at least outside of privilege, how 21 Jeffrey Epstein obtained the telephone numbers of 22 anyone else in the book other than perhaps yourself? 23 A. Well, I know that he called -- at some 24 point, called my secretary -- his secretary called 25 my secretary and said, I want all of his numbers, so www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726947 881 1 we got -- he probably did that to everybody. He 2 called assistants and secretaries and got 3 everybody's numbers. I mean, I don't do that. He 4 did that. 5 Q. When did Jeffrey Epstein have his 6 secretary call your secretary to get all of your 7 numbers? 8 A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Did he do it multiple times? 10 A. I have no idea. 11 Q. Do you know how he got the number for your 12 car? 13 A. He asked for it from my office, and I'm 14 sure they gave it to him. 15 Q. Do you see the entry 16 MR. SIMPSON: Object on relevance. And 17 we're into our fourth day. This is one reason 18 we're into our fourth day, so I just object. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Overruled. 20 A. Go ahead. What's -- 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Do you see that one of your numbers is 23 listed as all zeros? Do you know what that means? 24 A. The bottom one? 25 Q. Second to last. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726948 882 1 A. Second to last, all zeros. I doubt that 2 that's a number. 3 Q. When Jeffrey Epstein calls, does his 4 number ever come up all zeros? 5 A. I have no idea. I have no idea. I think 6 I do recall that when he calls, at least sometimes, 7 the number is blocked, so I can't call back. 8 Q. Sometimes doesn't it show on the screen as 9 all zeros? 10 A. I don't know. That's not familiar to me, 11 but maybe. 12 Q. Okay. But either way, for him slating an 13 entry for you of all zeros, that is meaningless to 14 you? 15 A. For him what? 16 Q. Him putting an entry for you as all zeros, 17 that's meaningless to you? 18 A. Probably means he doesn't want me to have 19 his numbers to return. Probably means he's not a 20 close enough friend that he's willing to have me 21 have his number in return that he wants me to call 22 him back, but that's just a surmise. 23 Q. Okay. After the Martha's Vineyard 24 meeting, when is the next encounter that you had 25 with Jeffrey Epstein? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726949 883 1 A. When he asked me to fly with him to New 2 Albany outside of Columbus to celebrate Leslie 3 Wexner's 59th birthday with President Shimon Peres 4 of Israel, Senator John Glenn, Mr. Taubman of 5 Sotheby's, Leslie Wexner, Jeffrey Epstein, and maybe 6 one or two other men. And we sat around his table 7 and had a very intellectual dinner, he showed us his 8 art collection. And then we flew home. 9 Q. Where was that? 10 A. I said New Albany, Ohio, right outside of 11 Columbus. 12 Q. This was at Les Wexner's place? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. What did you understand the relationship 15 of Les Wexner and Jeffrey Epstein at that time? 16 A. My understanding was that Jeffrey Epstein 17 was Leslie Wexner's financial advisor. He also had 18 a home -- Jeffrey Epstein had a home on the property 19 that at least he used. I assumed it was his, but 20 I'm not positive. 21 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein ever recruit girls for 22 Victoria's Secret? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 MR. INDYKE: Objection. To the extent to 25 the response to that information might require www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726950 884 1 Alan to invade the attorney-client privilege, 2 work product privilege, common interest 3 privilege, I instruct him not to answer. 4 A. I have no idea. I don't know. 5 MR. SCOTT: His answer is he doesn't know. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. How is Les Wexner associated with 8 Victoria's Secret? 9 A. I think he's the CEO. Certainly the 10 owner -- the general -- I don't know if it's a 11 public company or private company, but he is the 12 guy, he's the guy who runs it. 13 Q. Were you ever aware of any allegation 14 against Jeffrey Epstein of using -- of holding 15 himself out as a recruiter for Victoria's Secret to 16 sexually assault women? 17 A. Absolutely not. 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 19 instruction. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Have you seen a police report to that 22 effect? 23 A. No. This is the first literally right 24 now is the first I've heard of it. 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726951 885 1 instruction. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Okay. So, you never represented him in 4 connection with any such claim; is that right? 5 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 6 instruction. 7 A. I have no recollection. It's possible, 8 but I have no recollection. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Just so you know, I'm not saying that you 11 did. I'm just making sure it's not privileged. 12 A. I have no recollection, yeah. 13 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 14 Exhibit 30.) 15 MR. EDWARDS: I'll go ahead and mark this 16 as Exhibit 30. 17 MR. SCOTT: What are we looking at? Do 18 you have a copy? No, you don't. 19 MR. EDWARDS: You don't want a copy? 20 MR. SCOTT: Do you have a copy? 21 MR. EDWARDS: Yeah, I have a copy. 22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. 23 MR. SIMPSON: Can we have it? 24 MR. EDWARDS: You can have it. 25 MR. SCOTT: Oh, I'm not that -- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726952 886 1 MR. EDWARDS: Cheer up. 2 MR. SCOTT: I'm just -- I'm in a great 3 mood. 4 MR. SCAROLA: Closer we get to 3:30. 5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Scarola, we finally agree 6 on something. 7 MR. SCAROLA: I knew we would. 8 A. Can we have a date on this? 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. There is a date on it. It's, I believe, 11 May of 1997. 12 A. May of 1997, before any of these things. 13 I've never ever heard of any such allegation being 14 made against Jeffrey Epstein. He certainly never 15 discussed it with me or mentioned it to me. 16 Q. Okay. So you did not represent him in 17 connection with that allegation, correct? 18 A. I don't think so. 19 Q. Okay. When is the next encounter that you 20 had after the meeting in Georgia with Jeffrey 21 Epstein? 22 A. It wasn't Georgia; it was New Albany, 23 Ohio. 24 Q. Oh, sorry. I thought you said Georgia. 25 A. I did. I then corrected it to Ohio. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726953 887 1 I think the next one was when he invited 2 me and my nephew, Adam Dershowitz, who was then an 3 applicant for the space program, he was trying to be 4 an astronaut, graduated MIT in robotics and 5 aeronautics, and Jeffrey invited me and him to go to 6 the launch of one of the space shuttles. And he 7 flew us on his airplane along with an art dealer, a 8 woman who was the art dealer's significant other, a 9 number of other people, and we flew to -- I think we 10 flew into one of the airports, maybe the Palm Beach 11 airport, in the big plane. 12 And then -- maybe I'm not sure. We may 13 have flown directly to Cape Canaveral airport or 14 something like that. We spent two nights at that 15 point -- we spent one night and then part of another 16 night, because we had to get up very early in the 17 morning. The launch was 4:00 a.m. in the morning. 18 So I think we spent two nights, one and-a-half 19 nights, my nephew and I, I think we shared a 20 bedroom, at Jeffrey's house. We went to the launch 21 and then we left. We flew back commercially. 22 Q. And when was that? 23 A. You can check out when the launch was. 24 But it was, my recollection, around 19, I don't 25 know, '97, '98, '99. Early in my relationship with www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726954 888 1 Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Q. And who else was at Jeffrey Epstein's home 3 when you stayed the night on this occasion? 4 A. I think the art dealer was there. 5 Q. Who is that? 6 A. I don't remember his name. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I don't remember anybody else. We met 9 with Mr. Golden, who is the director of the space 10 program And -- 11 Q. Was Ghislaine Maxwell there? 12 A. I don't remember her being there. 13 Q. Okay. When is the next time that you were 14 in the presence of Jeffrey Epstein? 15 A. You're talking generally? 16 Q. Yes, going to go through the chronology. 17 A. I don't specifically remember, but I can 18 tell you that the next time I do remember was when 19 he lent his house to us, and my grandson, my 20 granddaughter, my wife, my daughter, my son, my 21 daughter-in-law, spent five, six days in Jeffrey 22 Epstein's house in Palm Beach. But now I think 23 about it, Jeffrey Epstein was not there, but his 24 staff was there. 25 Q. Do you know what year that was? www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726955 889 1 A. I think it was Christmas of 1995 -- 2005, 2 sorry, 2005. Christmas 2005. Over the Christmas 3 vacation or thereabouts, maybe earlier. It was 4 probably earlier. 5 Q. You told me about what I've written down 6 as the third time that you met with Jeffrey Epstein, 7 which was '97, '98 for the space shuttle. And then 8 the next time that you believe you were in Jeffrey 9 Epstein's presence was 2005? 10 A. Oh, I thought you asked about his house. 11 I'm sorry. I misunderstood. 12 Presence? Oh, I mean, probably a dozen 13 times at Harvard during that period of time. He had 14 an office in Brattle Square in which he would hold 15 seminars. And I would get a call from his 16 secretaries saying Jeffrey would like you to come to 17 the seminar, it's at 12 to 2 at 1 Brattle Square. 18 And I would go to offer critiques to 19 papers. Once I presented a paper. People who would 20 be there included Larry Summers, the president of 21 Harvard; and Henry Rosovsky, the provost of Harvard; 22 Steve Kosslyn, the chairman of the psychology 23 department; a man named Church who decoded the 24 genome; and Stephen J. Gould, the well-known 25 paleontologist. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726956 890 1 And so we would have those seminars, so I 2 met with him periodically at Harvard. 3 Q. Okay. Have you looked at the flight logs 4 for the flight that you mentioned with your wife and 5 whoever else went with you to the -- to Cape 6 Canaveral? 7 A. My wife was not with me in Cape Canaveral. 8 Q. Okay. Your nephew. 9 A. My nephew was with me, yeah. 10 Q. Have you looked for that flight on the 11 flight log? 12 A. I have not. It's not within the relevant 13 time period, so I haven't looked at it. 14 Q. Okay. And that's not really my point 15 Have you looked for some of these other flights that 16 you've taken on his airplane and not been able to 17 find it? 18 A. No. Absolutely not. That's not the case. 19 I've never seen any evidence of any missing logs 20 myself, any missing flight logs. 21 Q. Have you looked for that particular flight 22 that you just discussed? 23 A. No, no because it was outside the 24 timeframe. Well outside the timeframe, yeah. 25 Q. Okay. But only on the topic of whether or www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726957 891 1 not there are missing logs, have you -- 2 A. That's not been something I've focused on. 3 I was only looking at whether or not, within the 4 timeframe, who was with who on what flights, and I 5 saw that was on some flights with 6 other prominent academics, but never on a flight 7 with me. 8 Q. Do you know who was lent 9 out to for sex by Jeffrey Epstein? 10 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 11 attorney-client privilege, work product. 12 A. No, I can tell you outside of the 13 privileged information. I can tell you outside of 14 the privilege. I can tell you outside of the 15 privilege that she has claimed to have had sex on 16 numerous occasions with Leslie Wexner, and was told 17 by -- by Sigrid McCawley that -- 18 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to object to the 19 line of questioning. 20 MR. SCOTT: Time out. 21 A. That is from a statement made to me -- 22 MS. McCAWLEY: No, I just want to be clear 23 because if we're going to violate the privilege 24 again, the order of seal. 25 A. We are not. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726958 892 1 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to stop that 2 right now because the only conversations I've 3 had with you are in the context of settlement 4 discussion in this case. 5 A. It was not a conversation with Sigrid 6 McCawley. And please let me answer the question. I 7 had a conversation -- 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Just so we know what the question is, my 10 question is -- 11 A. The question is do I know whether she had 12 sex -- 13 Q. No, it's not. 14 MR. SCOTT: Let's just ask the question. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. And, 16 court reporter, please reread the question so 17 we understand. 18 COURT REPORTER: "Do you know who 19 was lent out to for sex by Jeffrey 20 Epstein?" 21 A. And the answer 22 MR. SIMPSON: Darren had an objection for 23 you. 24 A. Okay. I understand the instruction, and I 25 can answer the question. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726959 893 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. I just want the names of the individuals. 3 A. I can't just give you that. I can tell 4 you that 5 Q. That's what I'm asking for. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 7 second. The question is: Do you know who 8 was lent out to for sex by 9 Jeffrey Epstein? 10 MR. EDWARDS: Right. The names of the 11 individuals is all I'm looking for. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: There's an 13 objection. Okay. Go ahead. 14 A. I was told by John Zeiger, who was Leslie 15 Wexner's lawyer, that Sigrid McCawley claims that 16 her client, , alleges that she had 17 sex with -- and she said this, according to 19 Mr. Zeiger, very aggressively 20 MS. McCAWLEY: This is revealing 21 confidential settlement discussions. 22 A. Between who? 23 MS. McCAWLEY: Between -- I'm not going to 24 reveal what confidential settlement discussions 25 because that breaches a privilege. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726960 894 1 So what I'm going to say is that we are 2 not entitled here to be revealing any 3 settlement discussions that have happened on 4 behalf of my client. I'm not going to allow 5 there to be testimony as to that. To the 6 extent this involves Mr. Wexner's attorneys, 7 they are not present at this deposition at this 8 moment who you are mentioning, John Zeiger, 9 who's not able to object to this line of 10 questioning. You've had your client Jeffrey 11 Epstein's lawyers on the phone the entire time, 12 he should be entitled to a right to object to 13 this before there's a revelation of any 14 settlement discussions. 15 MR. SCAROLA: I want to know for the 16 record that Mr. Dershowitz has chosen to 17 disregard the instruction that came from 18 Mr. Epstein's counsel. And that 19 A. No, I haven't. I have said this comes 20 outside the privilege. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop. Let him 22 put his -- on the record. Go ahead. 23 MR. SCAROLA: Which is inconsistent with 24 the position that Mr. Dershowitz's counsel says 25 they were taking, and that is that they were www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726961 895 1 1 going to respect those objections without 2 evaluating whether those objections were or 3 were not well founded. Only noting it for the 4 record. Doesn't call for any argument or 5 discussion. 6 MR. SCOTT: I don't agree with you. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 8 second. Go ahead, Mr. Scott. 9 MR. SCOTT: I don't agree with your 10 characterization at all. I totally disagree 11 with it. We haven't done anything inconsistent 12 with what I've said. 13 MR. SCAROLA: Right. What you said is 14 you're going to honor the objections that have 15 been raised by Epstein's counsel and allow the 16 Court to rule on those -- 17 MR. SCOTT: I have said that. 18 MR. SCAROLA: -- without independently 19 evaluating the validity of those objections. 20 MR. SCOTT: Exactly. 21 MR. SCAROLA: But now Mr. Epstein [sic) is 22 independently evaluating the validity of the 23 objection and the instruction and attempting to 24 insert information in the record that he knows 25 is the subject of an order of the Court. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726962 896 1 MR. SCOTT: And my observation is that the 2 witness began to answer the question, the 3 special master and I both instructed the 4 witness not to respond until the question is on 5 the record and we can find out what was 6 happening. That's all I'm doing. I'm trying 7 to preserve 8 MR. SCAROLA: And he continued to answer 9 anyway. 10 MR. SCOTT: Well, I told him twice, and he 11 thought -- he believes he has the right to 12 answer. I've asked him not to answer until we 13 get a position from the special master on this. 14 A. I'm answering it outside the privilege. 15 MR. SCOTT: He's trying to say that it's 16 outside that, and he wants to express his 17 viewpoint. And I'm saying before he even does 18 that, Mr. Scarola, let the special master hear 19 what he wants to do. That's all. 20 MS. McCAWLEY: I want to add to the 21 record. 22 MR. SCOTT: Ad I'm trying to preserve -- 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 24 second. Hang on. Go ahead, Ms. McCawley. 25 MS. McCAWLEY: I just wanted to add to the www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726963 897 1 record that to the extent this is pulling in a 2 conversation with Mr. Zeiger, who represents 3 Mr. Wexner, that he should be entitled to be 4 present for any objections to revelation of 5 disclosures of those conversations, the same 6 way that Mr. Epstein, who has not appeared in 7 this case, has counsel on the phone objecting 8 to every single question in this deposition. 9 A. How does she have standing to raise that? 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Please. So 11 let's cut through this. First let me deal with 12 what Mr. Scarola had to say. 13 My understanding of the objection and 14 the -- to the degree that Mr. Epstein's counsel 15 objected, it could only be to the privileged 16 information that he asserts under whatever 17 privilege. 18 My understanding of what the witness began 19 to answer would be outside of that privilege, 20 or nonprivileged information. 21 However, Ms. McCawley raises an issue 22 based upon a previous order of the Court. Am I 23 correct? 24 MS. McCAWLEY: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And the scope of that order www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726964 898 1 was? Please share with me. 2 MS. McCAWLEY: Right. The scope of the 3 order was to seal settlement confidential 4 settlement discussions. And that's the scope 5 of the order. There's still pending a motion 6 for sanctions with respect to that, which will 7 now be -- 8 THE COURT: Hang on. And, Ms. McCawley, 9 you believe that the nature of the answer would 10 fall under those settlement discussions and, 11 therefore, are subject to the Court's order? 12 MS. McCAWLEY: I do. I believe that's a 13 possibility, and that Mr. Zeiger should be 14 present to the extent that there's going to be 15 communication of confidential nature to be able 16 to make his objection, if he has one. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, I'm not as 18 concerned with that. 19 Do you want to say anything else? 20 MR. SCOTT: No. I am here to abide by 21 what you say. I mean, I don't think that the 22 order by the Court at this point applies to 23 this conversation, but with that said, if 24 Mr. Wexler [sic], the attorney, feels like he 25 wants to make an objection or something, I'm www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726965 899 1 not -- you know. I don't know. 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: There could be 3 85 lawyers on the phone making all kinds of 4 objections. I get that point. But I'm more 5 concerned with the scope of the order, which I 6 have not seen, and I certainly don't want to 7 run the witness into an issue that will 8 ultimately be settled up. And I'm -- here is 9 where I'm tending to go. 10 Since we have open issues with respect to 11 the privilege issues that have been raised 12 here, and Ms. McCawley in good faith has raised 13 this as a potential issue that would be in 14 direct contradiction to what she believes is 15 already a Court order by Judge Lynch, whether 16 the witness agrees or not, that is subject to 17 some level of discussion and argument that's 18 going to be before Judge Lynch, then I will ask 19 the witness to step down on the answer and let 20 Ms. McCawley deal with that, if she wishes, in 21 front of the Court. 22 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Fair enough? 24 MS. McCAWLEY: Thank you. Yes. I do have 25 to break. It's almost time for me to leave. I www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726966 900 1 don't know if you want to finish up a question, 2 Brad, but I'm going to need to step out. I'm 3 just concerned about stepping out, given the 4 nature of where we are. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Two more short questions, 6 and then we can break. 7 A. So you don't want me to answer that whole 8 other question? 9 MR. EDWARDS: It's not that I don't want 10 you to. I think that are you being instructed 11 not to answer that. So we'll come back to 12 that. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, 14 Ms. McCawley raised an objection which she 15 believes is subject to a previous Court order 16 which I don't have knowledge of, and so given 17 that, and given the caveat that it was 18 nonprivileged relative to Mr. Epstein's 19 counsel's objection, we'll let that be dealt 20 with subsequent since we have to come back 21 anyway. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Okay. Is Les Wexner a party to a joint 24 defense agreement? 25 A. No. www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726967 901 1 Q. Okay. That card that we've marked as 26, 2 can you just look at the back of it and tell me what 3 is the significance of the writing on the back that 4 says -- can you read what it says? 5 A. It says "Scarola unethical e-mail." It's 6 a reference to the fact that when Mr. Scarola wrote 7 to me and asked me to waive the statute of 8 limitations, he engaged in an unethical act by 9 writing directly to a counseled client. And my 10 understanding of legal ethics is that he was not 11 entitled to write to me asking me to waive a statute 12 of limitations instead of going through my lawyer. 13 And if I was -- I just made a note to 14 myself that if I was asked about that again, I would 15 make a point that that was one of the reasons that I 16 declined to answer a direct e-mail from a lawyer to 17 an uncounseled defendant -- to a counseled 18 defendant. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So I can be 20 clear with respect to this exhibit that's 21 marked 26, the back of it contains handwritten 22 [sic] that is yours? 23 THE WITNESS: These are my notes that I 24 took over lunch. 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's all I www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726968 902 1 wanted. 2 THE WITNESS: Just to remind myself. 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. Okay. Last question. Outside of 5 privilege, inclusive of the potential 6 communication -- confidential settlement 7 communication privilege that we just discussed, are 8 you able to answer the question: Identify the 9 individuals that was lent out to 10 for the purposes of sex by Jeffrey Epstein? 11 MR. SCOTT: That's the question that we -- 12 just led to this whole thing that Ms. -- that 13 the young lady down at the end, Sigrid, doesn't 14 want him to answer. And so you're going to ask 15 it again and create this whole issue again 16 after he said no? 17 MS. McCAWLEY: What I don't want -- to be 18 clear, so the record is clear, what I don't 19 want him to do is reveal confidential 20 settlement communications that are already the 21 subject of a Court order. 22 MR. SCOTT: But he's indicating -- 23 MS. McCAWLEY: You heard his answer -- let 24 me just finish. You heard his implicating me 25 and another lawyer in discussions, and what I'm www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726969 903 1 saying is those are the subject of an order. 2 So if he can answer that question without 3 revealing that information, he can answer it, 4 but he cannot go on the record and reveal 5 confidential settlement discussions. 6 MR. SCOTT: Can you answer that without 7 going to into what the special master does not 8 want you to do to preserve the record? 9 A. Let me think about that. I can say 10 that -- 11 MR. SCOTT: Well, wait a minute. Tell you 12 what. Let's take a break for a minute. Let me 13 talk to him. I promised you that you would 14 honor all the privileges, and I don't want to 15 go down this road again. So let's take a break 16 right now. If that ends up the end of the day, 17 I think that's where we're at. 18 MR. SCAROLA: Because this is an issue as 19 to which Sigrid has an obvious interest, we 20 will wait to get the question answered when we 21 return. 22 MR. SCOTT: I agree with you. I'm trying 23 to honor her request, just like I honored this 24 lawyer's request. 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that's www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726970 904 1 right. Let's go. 2 MR. SCOTT: That's what I'm saying. 3 A. I would like to answer that question, 4 obviously. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I realize that. 6 MR. SCOTT: Okay. We got that. 7 MS. McCAWLEY: And she's only protecting 8 herself, not her client. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. Got it. 10 MR. SCAROLA: Those are entirely -- 11 MS. McCAWLEY: Ask that be stricken. 12 MR. SCAROLA: Those are entirely 13 inappropriate comments, and we move that they 14 be stricken. They are not responsive to any 15 pending question. They are self-serving. They 16 are themselves a waiver of privilege. To the 17 extent that Mr. Dershowitz has the ability to 18 waive any privilege, those kinds of comments 19 waive any personal privilege he has. 20 MR. SCOTT: We don't agree with that as to 21 any waiver. That's it, then. 22 MR. SCAROLA: I do have a Motion to 23 Strike. 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: With respect to 25 the Motion to Strike by itself, notwithstanding www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726971 905 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 all the other argument you made, I'm going to set that aside, and I will grant the Motion to Strike for purposes of that. MR. SCOTT: Thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. The time is 3:34 p.m. Aditb„,- www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726972 906 CERTIFICATE OF OATH STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF BROWARD I, the undersigned authority, certify that ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ personally appeared before me and was duly sworn on the 13th day of January, 2016. Signed this 17th day of January, 2016. KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR, CLR Notary Public, State of Florida My Commission No. FF 226848 Expires: 7/12/2019 www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726973 907 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF BROWARD I, KIMBERLY FONTALVO, Registered Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing videotape continued deposition of ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ; pages 648 through 455; that a review of the transcript was requested; and that the transcript is a true record of my stenographic notes. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorneys or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. Dated this 14th day of January, 2016. KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR, CLR www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726974 908 January 17, 2016 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard Miami, Florida 33156 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ. [email protected] Re: Bradley Edwards, et al., v. Alan M. Dershowitz Please take notice that on the 13th day of January, 2016, you gave your deposition in the above cause. At that time, you did not waive your signature. The above-addressed attorney has ordered a copy of this transcript and will make arrangements with you to read their copy. Please execute the Errata Sheet, which can be found at the back of the transcript, and have it returned to us for distribution to all parties. If you do not read and sign the deposition within a reasonable amount of time, the original, which has already been forwarded to the ordering attorney, may be filed with the Clerk of the Court. If you wish to waive your signature now, please sign your name in the blank at the bottom of this letter and return to the address listed below. Very truly yours, KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR, CLR Phipps Reporting, Inc. 1551 Forum Place Building 200, Suite E West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 I do hereby waive my signature. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726975 909 ERRATA SHEET DO NOT WRITE ON TRANSCRIPT - ENTER CHANGES HERE In Re: BRADLEY EDWARDS, ET AL., V. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ January 13, 2016 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have read the foregoing document and that the facts stated in it are true. Date ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA02726976