DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00058871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00058872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 name is : The recorder is on. My , and I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 : Okay. Mm-hmm. 8 : This interview with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it 10 11 -: 12 : Is being conducted as 13 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 14 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 15 Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the 16 time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? 18 : 515. 19 : 515? 20 : Yes. 21 UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st 22 floor. 23 : Okay. 515 Madison 24 Avenue, 31st floor. New York, New York. Also 25 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 3 EFTA00058873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 As well as -- 2 UNKNOWN MALE: Edward Hayes. 3 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? 5 MR. HAYES: Edward Hayes. H-A-Y-E-S. 6 First name E-D-W-A-R-D. 7 : Thank you, sir. Who is 8 representing . This interview will be recorded by me, 10 . could everyone please identify 11 themselves for the record, and spell your last 12 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 13 Special Agent, 14 15 : This is DOJ Special Agent 16 . And these are my 17 credentials. 18 : Okay. And I am -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't -- 20 21 MR. HAYES: -- I can't show you any 22 credentials. 23 . First name -- 24 : Okay. 25 . And EFTA00058874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 last name 2 apostrophe, 3 : Thank you, sir. Do you 4 happen to one -- 5 MR. HAYES: I still don't know how he 6 pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm 7 so arrogant that I don't carry identification. 8 You know what I mean? 9 : No. That's fine. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. But you are sitting 11 down here, you are willing to pay the fee. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: You know who I am. 14 : So, I am looking at Mr. 15 law enforcement officer credentials. 16 And it has a picture. And a signature of the 17 gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, 18 sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and 19 again, it's Edward -- 20 MR. HAYES: Edward 21 : -- Hayes. 22 MR. HAYES: -- Hayes. And I'm sorry, I 23 don't have -. I really -- 24 : No. That's quite all 25 right. EFTA00058875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: -- as I say -- 2 : But you are 3 MR. HAYES: -- Edward Hayes. I'm his 4 lawyer. 5 : -- perfect, and we're in 6 your office. 7 MR. HAYES: Right. 8 : This is an official 9 DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate 10 Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances 11 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 12 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 13 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 14 the DOJ/OIG? 15 : Yes, I will. 16 : Thank you, sir. This is 17 the form that we have to do all interviews, 18 interviewees. 19 MR. HAYES: Is that form S? 20 : This is the OIG form III- 21 226/2. 22 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 23 : Okay. 24 : But it says is - I'm 25 going to read it for you - United States EFTA00058876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 2 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 3 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 4 Basis. It says, "You are being asked to 5 provide information as part of an investigation 6 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 7 General. This investigation is being conducted 8 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 9 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 10 performance failure, and security failure." 11 And this is what we are writing for everyone 12 that we speak to, just because we're looking at 13 it as a -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- whole of what 16 happened. "This is a voluntary interview. 17 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 18 questions. No disciplinary action will be 19 taken against you if you chose not to answer 20 questions. Any statements you furnish may be 21 used as evidence in any future criminal 22 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 23 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver 24 section. It says, "I understand the Warnings 25 and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00058877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 4 used against me." If you would like to take a 5 look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if 6 you want your attorney to look at it, he may, 7 as well. 8 : Okay. 9 : You can sign where it 10 says "Employee Signature." And then, also 11 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 12 MR. HAYES: I'm sure you did. Okay. 13 There is no place that said attorneys -- 14 : No, no, no. 15 MR. HAYES: -- signatures. 16 : It's not for you to sign. 17 It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's 18 just if you wanted to review it, or ask any -- 19 MR. HAYES: No, that's all right. 20 : -- questions about it. 21 MR. HAYES: That's all right. I do have a 22 question. 23 : Where do you want me to 24 sign? 25 MR. HAYES: In other words, if you say to EFTA00058878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him -- 2 : Oh, so, where it says -- 3 : Right side. 4 : -- "Employee Signature." 5 MR. HAYES: Do you have sex with ducks? 6 And so, I'm not going to answer that question. 7 That's the - he can't get in trouble for that? 8 : I won't be asking that 9 question. 10 MR. HAYES: I mean, (Indiscernible 11 *00:04:18). 12 : (Indiscernible *00:04:20). 13 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:04:22). 14 : (Indiscernible *00:04:21). 15 Okay. 16 : Under the interview that 17 we are doing right now, for voluntary 18 interviews, he doesn't have to answer our 19 questions. 20 : Okay. Great. 21 : All right. So, thank you 22 for signing that, sir. Did you have any 23 questions on the form? 24 : No, I don't. 25 : All right. So, I'm EFTA00058879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 2 Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing 3 my name. 4 MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, 5 ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at 6 Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. 9 I can't really 10 basically write. So, that's why -- 11 : Sure. 12 MR. HAYES: -- I'm not taking notes. But 13 I have a pretty good memory, so, yeah. 14 : All right. Great. 15 , can you just sign as the witness? 16 : Oh. 17 : Put your name and take 18 care of the rest of the form. 19 : This is Special Agent 20 I'm signing as the witness, and dating 21 it. 22 : All right. Before 23 starting the interview, I would like to place 24 you under oath. can you please 25 raise your right hand? EFTA00058880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 11 : Mm-hmm. : Do you swear to tell the 3 truth and nothing but the truth during this 4 interview? 5 : I do. 6 : Thank you, sir. What is 7 your current home address? • • 9 10 : And what is your date of 11 birth? 12 -: 13 : And what -- 14 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 15 : -- what is the 16 MR. HAYES: I'm old. 17 : -- what are the last four 18 of your social security number? 19 -• 20 : Is it correct that you 21 were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter 22 on August 19th, 2019? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Or in August of 2019. 25 : I know it was some time in EFTA00058881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 2 3 4 5 August. Correct. Okay. How long have you worked for the BOP? : 30 years. And August, September, October, November. 30 years and 6 three months. 7 : All right. And what is 8 your current position with the BOP? 9 : I'm at FCI Fort 10 Dix. 11 : Okay. And what are your 12 -. You are , you said? 13 : Yes. 14 : Were you previously a 15 regional director? : I was the 17 18 : And how long have you 19 been at FCI Fort Dix? 20 : About two or three weeks. 21 Two weeks. 22 : Oh, so -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- it's a brand -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 ■ 3 4 the 5 6 7 : -- new position? : It just got there. Yeah. : Okay. How long were you I got it in February. : Okay. : Of 2021. : Okay. And as the 9 , what were your duties and 10 responsibilities? 11 : Monitoring he activities of 12 the 20 institutions in the region, and, you 13 know, managing the administratives within the 14 , and, you know, showing that 15 institutions were running in an orderly 16 fashion. 17 : Now, did you supervise 18 the various wardens at those institutions? 19 : Yes. I was over there. I 20 was the rating official on some of the 21 evaluations. 22 : And were you a warden 23 prior to that position? 24 : Yes, I was. 25 : Where were you a warden? EFTA00058883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : In New York. MCC. The 2 Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 3 4 warden there? : And how long were you a : I came from 7 I forget what it was. : Okay. 9 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- when you became the 12 regional director? 13 : No. The position 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- prior to that, I was 16 given -- 17 : Okay. : -- was 19 . And then, I went into the 20 21 : Okay. Sounds good. Ana 22 August of 2019, though, were yo at 23 the MCC New York? 24 : Yes, I was. 25 : Thank you, sir. And are EFTA00058884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who 2 was housed within the MCC in July and August of 3 2019? 4 : Yes. 5 : Yes. Okay. Great. What 6 I have here is an after-action report that was 7 written by the BOP. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Have you seen this? 10 : I have not seen that. 11 : All right. So, this is 12 not something that you are actually familiar 13 with? 14 : No, I am not. 15 : No one discussed any 16 findings or anything like that with you? 17 : No one. 18 : All right. I'm going to 19 set this aside just in case we need to, you 20 know, reference it. So, no role in the after- 21 action report? 22 : Nothing. I wasn't 23 interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 24 : All right. Do you know 25 of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to EFTA00058885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 and at least about, like, providing the 2 information that they utilized to this report? 3 : No. 4 : No. Okay. Fair enough. 5 After the incident occurred, what was your role 6 with determining what happened and what didn't 7 happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 8 2019? 9 : Well, I responded to the 10 institution. At the time, when I got there, he 11 was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the 12 unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, 13 and I've always been trained, if it was a crime 14 scene, if you weren't particularly there, the 15 least amount of people that, you know, that go 16 through that crime scene, just don't go into 17 it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, 18 basically gathering information on what 19 happened, notifying the region, notifying the 20 FBI. The IG. 21 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 22 He's already got that phone call. 23 : Oh. 24 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I 25 mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00058886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. HAYES: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to 3 sell. Oh, okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: That's why we do it for the 6 next six months. 7 : So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 10 more along those lines. 11 : Now, did you help with 12 gathering information, up until a certain 13 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 14 or did you continue to gather -? 15 : No, like, my boss was 16 calling me They needed 17 information. You know, starting a timeline on 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what happened. So, I had there, and, you know, we would just gather any information, and just, you know, making sure that, you know, things that were requested were being provided to them, any information. : And who was the regional director at the time? EFTA00058887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 : It was , at the 2 time. 3 : Okay. And then, who was 4 your executive assistant? 5 -: 6 : Okay. 7 -• 8 -: 9 : Now, as part of our 10 investigation, we have to review everyone's 11 emails, with regard to the incident. 12 : Right. 13 : So, you mentioned that 14 you provided with timelines -- 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- and things like that. 17 So, these are just some timelines from - again, 18 Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33 19 a.m. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : In the Special Housing 22 Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it 23 looks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m. 24 So, a few hours after the fact. It just says, 25 it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know EFTA00058888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -. 2 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 3 different timelines that are all updated 4 throughout the day. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Here is one that was at 7 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 8 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 9 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 10 the August 13th. So, these, do these look like 11 the timelines that you would have been 12 gathering information and providing to Mr. 13 14 : Okay. It looks like it. 15 : Now, where were you 16 actually obtaining this information from? You 17 said was obtaining it for you? 18 : He was the , we recall, 19 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 20 specifics on how we get it, because there was 21 so much going on. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : That, you know, I don't 24 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you 25 know, calling around and trying to find out. EFTA00058889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 So, I don't really recall the specifics. 2 : All right. Well, rather 3 than get into each one of these, because it 4 will take too long, I'll just do the very first 5 one. It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at 6 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in 7 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 8 staff initially." So, that is referring to the 9 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 10 on his life? 11 : Let me see which one. Are 12 we talking the day of, or -? 13 : No. This is 14 : This is July. 15 : -- yeah, July, 16 (Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27. 17 : Oh, no. This is July. 18 : Yeah. 19 : This is the -- 20 : So, this is the -- 21 : -- no, the -- 22 : -- timeline. 23 : -- this would -. We would 24 have probably got this from the SIS 25 investigation. EFTA00058890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. From that. I thought you 3 were referring to the actual suicide. This is 4 5 : No. What I meant was -- 6 : -- this is -. 7 : -- just the information 8 that was all put in there, as far as -- 9 MR. HAYES: This was his first attempt. 10 : -- well, it's everything. 11 So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is 12 July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then, 13 and then, until -. So, it's only - there is 14 only a few. That's why I was going to read it, 15 just because there is only, like, three 16 paragraphs, four or five, four or five 17 paragraphs. 18 : So, this looks to me like we 19 sent the information to 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- and what he did was, 23 compile this information to send to DOJ. 24 : Okay. Oh, you're right. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 • -- : This is not -- 3 : -- sent this to you. So, 4 he is saying -- 5 : -- yeah, this thing. 6 : -- "see below -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- just ensure you know." 9 : so, this is compiled off of 10 several different documents -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- which he condensed. 13 : So -- 14 : From -. 15 : -- he sent it to you. 16 I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So, 17 looking at this, then, let's just review it and 18 make each point, just make sure that it's what 19 you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, 20 Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell, 21 breathing, but would not acknowledge staff 22 initially." 23 : Right. 24 • "After removed, he 25 interacted with staff and speaking to staff. EFTA00058892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and 2 medical evaluation. Epstein receive daily 3 psychological evaluations while on suicide 4 watch." Was that your recollection, too? 5 : Yeah. That is what is in 6 the report. But I want to -- 7 : Sure. 8 : -- clarify what we went 9 You know, when I, when you first read it to me 10 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : I thought you meant the 13 day of. 14 : Yup, yup. 15 : So -- 16 : Well, we have that, too. 17 That's -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- that one is here. And 20 this one is from you, and this is what I 21 thought it was starting with, as well. 22 : Right. 23 : Because it said timeline 24 on it. From you to This initial 25 one actually talks about Friday, August 9th, EFTA00058893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes 2 Efrain, reg number 85993-054, departs for 3 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein's 4 celimate." 5 : Right. 6 : So, just starting with 7 that, then, I do have, we're going to get into 8 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 9 says inmate Reyes is departing for court, but 10 it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY? 11 : So, that would mean With All 12 Belongings. 13 : So, that means he's not 14 returning. Correct? 15 : Yes. 16 : All right. So, at 8:00 17 a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not 18 coming back to the MCC. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : All right. Great. And 21 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 22 throughout that day. And we're going to get 23 into these things more in detail, so I don't 24 want to go through each thing, because we're 25 going to have to get into it later. But so, EFTA00058894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 this information is stuff that you guys were 2 compiling, and you were providing to Mr. 3 4 : That would probably be 5 information that we sent up to him. 6 : Okay. Great. And then, 7 this is all the updates that occurred 8 afterwards. Let's see. Why is that 9 highlighted? So, here is something. Why, do 10 you know why in this one, it would be updated? 11 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 12 "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 13 warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong 14 place or something, and it says, "Inmate Reyes 15 released from court." 16 : (Indiscernible *00:16:27). 17 : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 18 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 19 10th. 20 : Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible 21 *00:16:34). 22 : Yeah. Okay. So, the 23 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 24 just shows the next update, you have that under 25 August - or Saturday - August 10th. EFTA00058895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : This can't be -. This 2 doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it 3 says, "PIO notified of incident by 4 I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at 5 work. 6 : Yeah. So, that's why I 7 think that they -. So, the next one I'm 8 looking at shows that that point is now under 9 Saturday, August 10th. 10 : Yeah. I don't know why it 11 would be -- 12 : So -- 13 : -- under Friday, because I 14 wasn't -- 15 : -- yeah. Okay. 16 I wasn't working. 17 : So, you were actually off 18 19 : I was off -- 20 : -- off on August 9th? 21 : -- on Friday. Yes. 22 : All right. You and 23 everyone else. 24 : Huh? 25 : Everybody was off that EFTA00058896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 day. 2 : Yeah. I didn't come back to 3 work until, when I got called, there was a 4 suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). 5 : Okay. So, all of this. 6 So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind. 7 So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to 8 assume that, as this went on, and specifically, 9 the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 10 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, 11 would be the most accurate timeline? 12 : It should be, but I don't 13 want to attest to it. I mean -- 14 : Yeah, yeah. 15 yeah. 16 : I'm just saying, based - 17 is there any reason for you to believe that the 18 timelines that were provided, or in any way, it 19 was determined that, you know, we should add a 20 point that actually didn't occur? Or is it 21 safe to assume that, the last one that was sent 22 would be the most accurate one? 23 : That's how it typically 24 works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't 25 attest to it -- EFTA00058897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : And yeah. 2 -- of whether it was 3 accurate, but typically, the last one that you 4 send usually, you know, if you have to make 5 corrections, you make the corrections. Add 6 information, if you have to. 7 : Sure. Okay. Great. 8 When I show you things, it's not attesting to 9 it, but -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : I'm going to ask you 12 just to initial and date, and that's just to 13 say, specifically, that this is the document we 14 looked at when we spoke. It is absolutely not 15 attesting to it. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : It's not saying that this 18 stuff is accurate. 19 : And so, I write the date -- 20 : If you could -- 21 and put reviewed on it, 22 or -? 23 : nope. Just your 24 initial and date. I'm just going to do this 25 last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to EFTA00058898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 2 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 3 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 4 : What's the date? The 18th? 5 : 27th. 6 : 27th. 7 : 10/27/21. 8 : Thank you, sir, for 9 initialing and dating that. All right. I'm 10 going to just actually, because it's the 11 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me 12 because we might have to reference it. 13 MR. HAYES: I can tell -- 14 : All right. 15 MR. HAYES: -- this is going to be a long- 16 ass interview. 17 : It's going to be pretty 18 long. That's where I was trying to -- 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Just -. 20 : -- you know? All right. 21 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 22 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 23 Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 24 : I recall the investigation 25 that couldn't determine if they had an EFTA00058899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt 2 at suicide. 3 : All right. So -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- so, something happened 6 on the July 23rd -- 7 : Something happened -- 8 where Mr. 9 in his cell. 10 : -- Epstein was found 11 with, like, a - was it a noose around his neck? 12 : It wasn't determined. It 13 was, you know, that he was laying in his cell, 14 but I don't recall the specifics of the report. 15 But I know it went back and forth where there 16 was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate 17 18 : Tartaglione. 19 : -- with - yeah - 20 Tartaglione. Yeah. 21 : All right. So, these are 22 emails that we reviewed with regard -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- to that incident. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, this one is specifically from, it says 3 . Was that -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- your II? 6 : That is the II. 7 : Send it to you? 8 : Right. 9 : And this is a memo from, 10 it says is the 11 12 : Yeah. 13 14 : Right. This is where I 15 wanted to ask you if you knew 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- about this. It 18 specifically says, so, it was originally, 19 guess, sent from to 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- from to 23 you. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : And her note to you says, 31 EFTA00058901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "From the memo attached, the information I received is not what I was told happened." : Right. So, what I wanted to know is, and I guess, would you like me just to refresh your memory, to really quickly read what she said happened, so we can figure out what it is that didn't happen? : Okay. Yeah. All right. So, this is subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again, July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me just sit back so you can just kind of read along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to you? : No. No problem. I'm vaccinated, just so you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance on the Special Housing Unit was announced by the control center. Upon my arrival, I was informed that an inmate had attempted suicide and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, lying in the fetal position on the floor of his EFTA00058902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. 2 He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. 3 I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him 4 flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His 5 neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no 6 further injuries to his person. An attempt was 7 made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to 8 stand on his own, with negative results. The 9 inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff 10 was directed to retrieve the stretcher. 11 As inmate Epstein was being placed on the 12 stretcher by responding staff, he would open 13 his eyes and observe staff. When staff made 14 eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut 15 his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit." 16 Was it that? The health care? 17 : Health. Health Services. 18 : "Dressed in a suicide 19 smock, and placed on suicide watch. While 20 awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, 21 inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and 22 began moving forward, as if was attempting to 23 fall over, head first. When I looked away, he 24 straightened up. As I turned to look at him 25 again, he attempted the same act. I laid him EFTA00058903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his 2 action or he would be placed in restraints for 3 his safety. 4 At that moment, he stated, `Okay. I won't 5 do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because 6 of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was 7 made to have the staff member observe inmate 8 Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make 9 staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke 10 with Officer Clark, who stated that Inmate 11 Epstein was alert and had indicated that his 12 cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514- 13 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been 14 harassing him. 15 He stated that the inmate had indicated 16 that he had informed his attorney of this 17 matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate 18 Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was 19 asleep with his headphones on when he felt 20 something hit his legs, and said, `Jeff. What 21 are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got 22 up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He 23 got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a 24 string around his neck. 25 He stated that he then called the guards, EFTA00058904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 and they ran down. Upon further questioning, 2 inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the 3 bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein 4 because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on 5 the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when 6 he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or 7 stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that 8 Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to 9 the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't 10 responding. 11 He stated that the last time he saw him, 12 he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein 13 stated that he comes in from a legal visit at 14 approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a 15 copy of the Daily News. Nick was on the floor 16 reading the Daily News. He stated that he had 17 given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione 18 mentioned that he had been in court all day, in 19 Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was 20 carrying on. 21 At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, 22 as if he was making the story up, as he went 23 along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, 24 `These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is 25 inhumane. I wish I could report it. EFTA00058905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit 2 motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the 3 Daily News that had his picture on it, and 4 stated that Epstein was worth 77 million 5 dollars. 6 Epstein then stated that he took his 7 picture, balled it up, and threw it in the 8 garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened 9 prior to staff's arrival. He stated that at 10 approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to 11 get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 12 minutes. He remembered walking back to his 13 bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his 14 cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen 15 staff, why didn't he respond when we were 16 calling out to him. 17 He stated that he only remembered hearing 18 himself making a noise like snoring. When 19 asked about the allegations against his 20 cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt 21 him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical doctor 22 -" how do you pronounce that name? 23 : Beaudouin. 24 : B-E-A-U-D-O-U-I-N. "Was 25 notified and briefed. It was determined that EFTA00058906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 no further medical attention was needed. A 2 medical assessment was not conducted at the 3 time of this incident, due to the fact there 4 was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. 5 Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate 6 Epstein was examined and treated by M-L-P-Y." 7 : Joaquin. 8 : Joaquin. J-O-A-Q-U-I-N. 9 "For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base 10 of his neck. One section on the front, with 11 marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his 12 left knee." So, sorry that that was so 13 lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, 14 is this, is this, does anything in here strike 15 you as inaccurate? 16 : No. 17 : So, when 18 says that in the attached memo, "The 19 information I received is not what I was told 20 happened." Do you know what she is referring 21 to? 22 : I think she - if I recall 23 that she told, that said that it was an 24 attempted suicide, but then she got any 25 additional information that it might have been EFTA00058907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 2 cell. 3 : And what, and my 4 understanding is that SIS came up with 5 inconclusive findings. 6 : In the investigation. 7 : What is your belief that 8 happened? 9 : I can't speculate. 10 : You don't 11 : I don't want I mean, I 12 don't know, you know, with the injuries on the 13 neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I 14 don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that 15 was something done to him. So, couldn't prove 16 what it was. 17 : Okay. And is it, is 18 there any reason for us to know or believe that 19 it was one or the other, though? I know you 20 are trying not to speculate, but -. 21 : I mean, I would, you know, 22 you have there be the medical department, who 23 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 24 you could say you come to a conclusion from 25 injuries, from physical injuries, but we EFTA00058908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 weren't even able to do that. 2 : So, according to the 3 medical assessment, your understanding is that 4 they weren't able to tell if someone -? 5 : That, from what I - if I can 6 - and I don't know - I read it - but I don't 7 know -. I remember on the report, they were 8 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 9 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 10 assaulted? 11 : And were you satisfied 12 with that response, or did you think that they 13 missed something? 14 : I think they looked into it. 15 And I think it was, you know, you couldn't look 16 into it any further. I mean, either 17 : Okay. 18 it was a suicide, or it 19 was assault. So, we separated them. 20 : Okay. But there is 21 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you 22 weren't, you know -? 23 : I mean, they interviewed 24 them. They asked the questions. You had the 25 medical assessment. So, I don't know what EFTA00058909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 - 1 other -- 2 : Sure. 3 : -- conclusions could have 4 been drawn from it. 5 : And what happened with 6 inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 7 23rd. 8 : I don't specifically 9 remember what happened. I know we separated 10 the both of them. He wasn't - and then, I know 11 he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a 12 watch. And then had psychology talk to him. 13 : Okay. So, just so, that 14 is just so you know, if you don't mind just 15 initialing and dating that one, that we just 16 read. Okay. So, this next one is from 17 to a 18 (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05). 19 : She's a psychologist. 20 : Okay. And then, with 21 UCC. 22 : Right. 23 : It says, "SW, 24 chronological log, re: Epstein." It says, 25 was assigned to staff watch. EFTA00058910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 However, the wrong book was used. I am 2 companion log, in lieu of staff suicide watch 3 log." 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Was that something 6 normal? Was that an easy mistake? 7 : yeah, I could see it 8 happening because we have a log that the 9 inmate, you have an inmate companions that 10 watch inmates. So, they use the log. And 11 then, you have, if staff are going to sit on 12 someone, then they use a certain log. But the 13 fact that, you know, the documentation took 14 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 15 error. 16 : Okay. 17 : But they did document, so. 18 : Now, . Is 19 this that you, are you aware? 20 : I had . I don't 21 know which one it was. 22 : Okay. So, if I tell you 23 it was -- 24 : No, no, no. It had to be 25 , because if it was EFTA00058911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he would have been - his title is 2 3 : Okay. So, you don't 4 believe it was actually 5 : No. I think it was the 6 7 : It was 8 . Just from our records and from 9 speaking -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- with 12 : Can I see the log -- 13 : Sure. 14 how he opened the log? 15 : That is correct, right, 16 17 : Where does it show that he 18 started his shift? Because usually, when you 19 come on shift, you write -- 20 : This is what -- 21 : -- the name. 22 : -- was attached to that 23 email. 24 : Yeah. Typically, when you 25 start your shift, your start off, you know, EFTA00058912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 you're putting your name, if you are relieved, 2 or you assume suicide watch. 3 : So, here is the next 4 email, so you might be able to show me an 5 example of what you are referring to. It's 6 this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd, 7 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 8 that maybe he should have been using. But 9 here, it shows all the other logs. 10 : So, this is 11 : 12 : See, this is what I mean by 13 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 14 they leave -- 15 : This is the -. 16 : -- they mix the book up. 17 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. 18 But typically, when you come on, let's say the 19 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 20 name, as assuming the duties. 21 : Okay. 22 : And you typically say who 23 you relieved on there. 24 : All right. So, it looks 25 like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly. EFTA00058913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : They didn't fill it out 2 correctly. 3 : And so, our investigation 4 shows that it was 5 : Okay. 6 : -- that was on him on the 7 23rd. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : And that wasn't an "I 10 gotcha," whatsoever. My question was actually, 11 is the one that actually found 12 him on August 10th. Correct? 13 : Yes. 14 : And is that suspicious at 15 all to you, that he was the one that was 16 watching him on suicide watch, and then that he 17 is the one that found him on the 10th? 18 : No. I mean, typically, we 19 had so much overtime in the institution, that 20 and we go by when you sign up for it. So, 21 there is a program that you sign up for, and 22 don't know how the did. They might 23 have called them, then he signed up for it. 24 So, I don't know. I can't say if it was 25 suspicious or not. EFTA00058914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Sure. And then, all 2 these documents that we're reviewing right 3 here, on these two emails, what are they? 4 : Which one? 5 : Both of them. 6 : The suicide watch log? 7 : Yeah. So, is this 8 suicide watch log, as well as this? 9 : Yeah. The suicide 10 observation log, and this is, appears to be the 11 cover of a logbook, for suicide watch. 12 : Perfect. 13 : Okay. 14 : All right. Do you mind 15 just initial and dating this? And again, these 16 aren't trick questions -- 17 : Okay. 18 • -- I just don't want to, 19 like, put answers in your -. If I think it is 20 something, but maybe it's not, you might be 21 able to tell me what it actually is. 22 : This one, too? 23 : Yes, please. Thank you, 24 sir. And this is, this says psych ops. So, 25 this is another one of those emails. This one EFTA00058915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 is from to you. Also dated August 10th, 2 2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued or. 3 7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct? 4 5 6 7 8 9 : Mm-hmm. At 8:15 a.m. : Mm-hmm. So, is this also part of the suicide watch log? : That is a log you would also 10 use. 11 : Okay. Great. And does 12 it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15 13 a.m., psych observation is being 14 discontinued."? 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. Awesome. Do you 17 mind just initial and dating this? And 18 as I am giving these to you, can you try to 19 keep these in order with regard to -- 20 : I've just been stacking them. 21 : -- making a note. Don't 22 stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, 23 bundled together, so we know this is psych. 24 This is, like, the psych observation logbook. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 : So, if you can keep them, 2 and then write a note on them. 3 : Okay. 4 : So that when we are -. 5 After this thing is transcribed, we can keep 6 things in order. This one is regarding the 7 first attempt, and the one we read from 8 . And can you tell me, sir, what 9 this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that 10 same date that he came off of What am I 11 looking at here? 12 : So, this is -. Date, name, 13 signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is 14 -. Is this a entrance log to the Special 15 Housing Unit? 16 : I'm not sure. That's 17 what I'm saying. 18 : I'm just, I don't know. It 19 might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. 20 : These are all dates, but 21 at least up until 7/30, that he was in the 22 Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. 23 So, I don't know if he would sign himself in. 24 : No, no. 25 : So -. EFTA00058917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 : I don't know. It might be 2 an entrance -- 3 : Or is it to the attorney 4 visits or something? 5 : -- it might be attorney 6 visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic 7 Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name. 8 Name. This might be an attorney log. Name. 9 Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is 10 probably an attorney -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 the log into the attorney 13 room. I think that's probably it. 14 : Here is Epstein again. 15 It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30. 16 : The different attorneys. 17 He, you know, he could have had one attorney 18 that comes in early in the morning -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- and then, any time a new 21 one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who 22 you came to see. 23 : Okay. 24 : So, he had multiple 25 : So, this is -- EFTA00058918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- (Indiscernible 2 *00:37:46). 3 : -- an attorney log. 4 : This is an attorney log. He 5 usually had multiple attorneys. 6 : So, it wasn't Epstein 7 signing his name. They are 8 : No, no. 9 : -- saying they were 10 visiting this person. 11 : Whoever comes and visits has 12 to put who -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- they are visiting. 15 : So, the visitor logs were 16 for attorneys. 17 : Attorneys. Yeah. 18 : All right. You mind just 19 initial and dating that? And again, if 20 you want to write on here, just -- 21 : Okay. 22 : -- attorney logbook 23 visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of 24 what it is these things are. Now, is this the 25 same thing we just looked at? This looks like, EFTA00058919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed 2 duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 3 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred 4 to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. 5 until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion 6 was utilized." 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : So, this one says July 9 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch 10 chronological log. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Inmate companion logs. 13 Does this tell you anything more about 14 , or anything different? What is this? 15 This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? 16 That's just he's on it? 17 : Yeah. It just says, you 18 know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. 19 You got category. I don't know what the MDS 20 is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, I 21 could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he 22 was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, 23 this must be a medical term. Concerning his 24 medical status. 25 : Okay. Great. And then, EFTA00058920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 this is the first page, it looks like, of the 2 logbook. Does this tell you 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- anything different 5 than what we looked at before, or is this the 6 same thing? 7 : It's the same. It's an 8 inmate suicide watch -- 9 : Okay. 10 log. 11 : So, it doesn't say 12 on it, it just -- 13 : No. It says inmate 14 companion was watching him. 15 : Okay. You said inmate 16 Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of 17 18 : Yeah, yeah. 19 : -- the actual. Okay. 20 : You have -- 21 : I got you. So, whatever, 22 does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that 23 was his companion? 24 : Inmate companion Esteban 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number EFTA00058921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 right there. 2 : Okay. Great. 3 : Assumed responsibility for 4 inmate Epstein on -. 5 : Perfect. 6 : So, that's why I was telling 7 you, the staff one should read just like that, 8 too. 9 : All right. So, this one 10 is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- Epstein's companion on 13 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and 14 dating that? 15 : And this is right after the 16 incident. The first incident, right? 17 : This is - so, July 23rd 18 or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on 19 suicide watch, not on observation. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : And this is that, it 22 looks like this one is, again, it's from you to 23 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : It says psych ops/suicide EFTA00058922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 watch. And it looks like it's the difference 2 between the two. 3 : Right. 4 : In laymen's terms, what 5 is the difference between suicide watch and 6 psychological observation at the MCC, during 7 this time period when Epstein was on it? 8 : So, suicide watch is when we 9 have determined, or there is a possibility, 10 through what an individual is saying, that they 11 might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops 12 is, that person might not admit it, and we 13 might not have anything to say to put them on 14 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 15 call psychological observation. 16 : And now, it was my 17 understanding -- 18 : (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 19 : -- it's basically the 20 same thing, aside from what the inmate is 21 allowed to have, such as clothes. 22 : That, too. 23 : Okay. So, is it same 24 unit, same room, same -- 25 : Same. EFTA00058923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- same procedures? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. The one thing that 4 I've learned more recently is, though, during 5 psychological observation, or I guess I should 6 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as 7 psychological observation, is the inmate 8 allowed to have attorney visits? 9 : If they are on that watch, 10 no. 11 : What about during 12 psychological observation? 13 : I think it would be the same 14 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 15 I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because 16 typically, when they are on that, we don't have 17 it. 18 : Okay. Do you recall if 19 either yourself or anyone at the institution 20 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 21 Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed 22 from either psychological observation or 23 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 24 : They will always call. I 25 mean, they would. There was always a number EFTA00058924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 subject, whether it was to place him in general 2 population. So, I don't, you know, recall -. 3 : Do you remember ever 4 being called by a judge? 5 : No, I don't. I don't 6 recall. 7 : Okay. 8 : Speaking with a judge. 9 : All right. Because that 10 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 11 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 12 from one or the other. 13 : No. Judges wouldn't 14 typically call for that. 15 : But the attorneys 16 frequently would? 17 : Yeah, frequently, they 18 would, you know, call our legal department, 19 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 20 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 21 here? And just not him, if there was any type 22 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 23 type of requests you get from the attorney. 24 : Okay. And do you know if 25 those attorneys were made, though, when he was EFTA00058925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on either suicide watch or psychological 2 observations? 3 : I don't recall that. 4 : You don't recall. 5 : No. 6 : Sure. That's fine. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Do you know - I know you 9 said that, and you didn't think that inmates 10 typically could - but do you know if Mr. 11 Epstein visited with his attorneys during that 12 time, between the 23rd and the 30th of -- 13 : I don't know -- 14 : -- (Indiscernible 15 *00:43:28)? 16 : -- if he was on that status, 17 then he would not have been -- 18 : You don't believe so? 19 : I don't believe so. 20 : Okay. 21 : No. I don't believe so. 22 : No problem. All right. 23 So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind 24 initial and dating that? 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 : Okay, , you can 2 file that accordingly. This one just goes back 3 to that first initial timeline, that looked 4 like it may have been a little messed up. The 5 initial email from you, it looks like it's a 6 psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released 7 on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, 8 starting at 8:20 a.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : He was there all day. 11 will send the attorney log next." And then, 12 response was, "The timeline we 13 sent DOJ says 7/29. Where did we get that 14 date?" So, are we confident that he stayed 15 until the 30th? 16 : He stayed until the 30th. 17 : Okay. So, was this just 18 an incorrect -- 19 : I think that was a typo. 20 : -- okay. Oh, sorry. Do 21 you mind initial and dating? 22 : Well, this answers your 23 previous question. 24 : What's that? 25 : About being on psych ops and EFTA00058927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after 2 he got off. 3 : Well, it says that he had 4 an attorney visit -- 5 : Right. 6 : -- starting at 8:20 a.m., 7 but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that 8 time. 9 : Right. Oh, because he was 10 released on July 30th. 11 : Right. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, just saying, like, 14 yeah, he was released and -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- he was visiting with 17 his attorneys. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And that's something 20 we've had a little bit of a conflicting 21 information. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : We've heard that he 24 actually did have attorney visits during that 25 time. And we've heard that he didn't. So, EFTA00058928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 that's why I was wondering if you would be able 2 to clear that up at all, but you're not -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- to your recollection - 5 6 : No. 7 : -- he wouldn't have? 8 : Yeah. Typically, if you are 9 on that, you're not going to have an attorney 10 visit. 11 : And just talking to 12 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 13 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 14 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 15 that right. But do you think that maybe they 16 were mistaken? 17 : I'm just going from my 18 experience, like any other of the inmates that 19 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 20 attorney visit. 21 : Okay. Now, this, 22 speaking of psychology, that's the next point. 23 Let me just make sure that all the information 24 is on that incident. So, as far as 25 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is EFTA00058929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 How do you think it's -? 2 : Tartaglione. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. So, did you have 6 any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as 7 Epstein's cellmate? 8 : We did. 9 : Okay. And how was that 10 selection made? 11 : So, we weren't able to get a 12 whole lot of people, you know, think that how 13 we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was 14 a white male. Another high-profile case. So, 15 and he is not, you know, there is this 16 misconception that he was a big hulking 17 bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something 18 pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and 19 frame. So, we said that would have been an 20 appropriate cellmate for him. 21 : And who made the 22 decision? 23 : To put them together? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : I did. EFTA00058930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 : Okay. Was it in 2 coordination with both the captain, as well as 3 4 : Everyone - yeah - would 5 discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, I 6 sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're 7 going to make him his cellmate, and what was 8 the reasoning. 9 : So 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- in talking with the 12 captain, his recollection was that he brought 13 the three names, you discussed it with III 14 , he was present for that discussion, and 15 is the only one who said, I want 16 Tartaglione, put him with Tartaglione. Do you 17 recall it to be that way, or do you recall it 18 to be -? 19 : Which -? Well, are we 20 talking about Tartaglione? 21 : Oh, did that happen with 22 Reyes? 23 : Well, Reyes and - what do 24 you call it? - Reyes and, there were two names. 25 So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted EFTA00058931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 to see the names. So, I don't know who they 2 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 3 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 4 the two inmates to the director's office. 5 Kevin Pistro (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 6 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 7 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 8 about as far as if we had to choose between who 9 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 10 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 11 12 : Efrain Reyes? 13 : -- Reyes, that Reyes would 14 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 15 find anybody. 16 : Okay. So -- 17 : And then, they went up, and 18 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 19 : Okay. So, Reyes was when 20 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 21 selection, but for -- 22 : Tartaglione. 23 : Tartaglione, that was 24 you? 25 : I mean, it was in EFTA00058932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, 2 the powers that be that this is who we're going 3 to be, and it came back and said, you know, 4 we're good for that. 5 : Okay. Do you know what 6 Tartaglione was in for? 7 : He had - I know it was a big 8 drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff 9 like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible 10 *00:48:45) -- 11 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 12 : -- huh? 13 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 14 : Some kind of narcotics. So, 15 he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was 16 murder involved, too. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 : But he was a high-profile 19 case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there 20 that were trying to get in there, but you know, 21 they would have probably harmed him. I had 22 another pedophile in there, and everybody in 23 the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not 24 taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we 25 can't just arbitrarily force another inmate EFTA00058933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was, 2 you know, the best 3 MR. HAYES: The other inmates 4 : -- inmates -. 5 MR. HAYES: -- would not accept Epstein, 6 nor would not accept a pedophile. 7 : They weren't going to -. 8 They just weren't going to stab Epstein 9 *00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I 10 mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all 11 right, I'm going to force you to take this, and 12 then something happens to him, and then -. 13 : So, someone actually 14 spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was 15 willing to do it? 16 : And I'm not sure on there 17 who spoke to him, but I don't know. 18 : Okay. 19 : It might have been. But I 20 know we said we were going to put him in, and 21 this is, this is what -. And he didn't have 22 any issues. 23 : Okay. And if someone did 24 speak with him, who would that have been? 25 Would that have been EFTA00058934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : It might have been the Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02). 3 But it probably would have been the 4 but - 5 : Okay. 6 : -- you know, typically, you 7 know, we're going to make a move, and we're 8 putting somebody in there, we're not going to, 9 you know, sit down and consult with an inmate, 10 if that's okay with you. I mean 11 : Sure. 12 : -- we just have a feel of 13 the unit -- 14 : No. 15 : -- that, who is appropriate 16 to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a 17 drug dealer in there with him. So, you know, 18 typically, another high-profile inmate would be 19 appropriate. 20 : Okay. Now, do you have 21 any reason to believe that Tartaglione did, in 22 fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd? 23 : Again, I can't speculate on 24 that. 25 : Sure. Just because - EFTA00058935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : I mean -. : -- it would be pure 3 speculation, if you did? 4 : Yeah. It would be. I would 5 be speculating on that. 6 : Okay. 7 : I can't -. 8 : Okay. 9 : Yeah. 10 : And you just prefer not 11 to do that? 12 : Yeah. I don't want to 13 speculate. 14 : Okay. Now, so, our 15 assessment from other people has been that 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Tartaglione was trying 18 to beat his case -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- and that he had every 21 reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And 22 that Tartaglione was actually the person who 23 notified the guards that Epstein was in need of 24 help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct 25 assessment? EFTA00058936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 MR. HAYES: Tartaglione wasn't in the cell 2 at the time. 3 : So -- 4 : On July 23rd, he was. 5 : -- he was. So, he -- 6 MR. HAYES: He was. Oh, I -- 7 : -- yeah. 8 MR. HAYES: -- yeah, right. 9 : Yeah. So, here's how I'm 10 going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we 11 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't 12 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 13 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 14 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 15 and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't 16 speculate on, you know, whether he would do 17 something, or he wouldn't do something. So, 18 that was, you know, my dealings with 19 Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus, 20 you know, his case. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : And the request from his 23 attorneys. 24 : Okay. So, following 25 Epstein's time on suicide watch and EFTA00058937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 psychological observation, was he placed back 2 in the SHU? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. So, and I 5 apologize to read all these, but this is just 6 again - we're not going to through them one by 7 one, but just to show what it is that we have 8 here. So, this one says it's from an 9 to Did I get this from you? 10 I think this is something that forwarded on. 11 MR. HAYES: She say even gave your own 12 drinking -- 13 : This one says, "Can you 14 send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide 15 attempt. Thanks." That was from 16 it looks like, sent it up. So, 17 said, "I need this ASAP." And it 18 says, "Here are his notes." 19 : So, he said (Phonetic 20 Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is 21 requesting it. 22 : Okay. So, the region 23 wanted this? 24 : Yeah. 25 : So, this, is this what EFTA00058938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this is? Is this the psychology file of 2 Epstein? 3 : Those are clinical notes. 4 : So, these are all 5 clinical notes -- 6 : Yeah. 7 here? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Would this have been, 10 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 11 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it 12 looks like these are clinical notes from the 13 day he got there -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- up until July 31st. 16 : Right. 17 : I wonder why. Why would 18 they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 19 : You said -- 20 : Not August. 21 : -- they sent from where? 22 : Well, it -- 23 : From -? 24 : -- started from the day 25 that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July EFTA00058939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 8th, 2019. 2 : Right. 3 : To July 31st, 2019. 4 : It's any encounter you have 5 with him. Any medical -- 6 : So, did they not -- 7 : -- (Indiscernible 8 *00:53:53). 9 : -- have any encounters 10 after July 31st, 2019? 11 MR. HAYES: Do you know? 12 : No. I am not aware of that 13 because it would only - they would only 14 annotate if they had encounters with him. 15 : Okay. So, you are 16 unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any 17 kind of, any psychology had any interactions 18 with him? 19 : No. If it's not in the BEMR 20 notes, and that, I guess they didn't have any. 21 : So, you would assume that 22 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- there wouldn't be? 25 Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know EFTA00058940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 why that would be? 2 : Hold on. If an inmate is 3 cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them 4 about it - but most inmates didn't, once you 5 are cleared off of suicide watch, they have 6 other things that they do. You can come down 7 and they give you some (Indiscernible 8 *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they 9 have other types of therapy, but it doesn't 10 necessarily have to be entered in as a medical 11 encounter. 12 : Okay. So, this is, so, 13 psychology could have been still meeting with 14 them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 15 : Yeah. You - I mean - you 16 see them, and you can just, like, if you have 17 patients, you will go, how is everything going? 18 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm 19 okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a 20 medical encounter. 21 : Okay. So, your 22 involvement with this, being that he came off 23 of psychological observation on July 30th, 24 should psychology had interacted with him more 25 in that type of setting, where they would have EFTA00058941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been writing clinical notes? Or do you 2 : No. I think they -- 3 : -- or -? 4 : -- did everything. Because 5 they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on 6 the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive 7 whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 8 : Sure. 9 : -- attempted to commit 10 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but 11 if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I 12 wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do 13 it, that's their assessment of it. 14 : Right. No. I guess what 15 I'm saying is that, I know you're not a 16 psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that 17 they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- do you think that they 20 should have continued at least checking with 21 him, or no? 22 : Well, they probably cild. 23 mean, when -- 24 : Okay. 25 : -- you make your SHU rounds. EFTA00058942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 You know, seeing him in other parts of the 2 institution. So, and you would have to ask 3 them. But there were probably encounters with 4 him. 5 : Okay. 6 : But that didn't require 7 MR. HAYES: A report. 8 : -- a report, and a medical 9 annotation in there. 10 : Okay. So, this next 11 email, it talks about, it says, 12 ," and this is fro , ana 13 again -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- is he the coordinator? 16 Or, who is he? 17 : Oh. 18 : Oh, here it is. National 19 suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP. 20 : Right. 21 : It says, "Thank you for 22 supporting our scheduling of the psychological 23 reconstructive for inmate Epstein. I will be 24 joined by , (Phonetic Sp. 25 *00:56:44) EFTA00058943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 the . So, do you know if that 2 was ever completed? The actual suicide 3 reconstruction. 4 : They might have, but nobody 5 talked to me. 6 : Okay. They didn't talk 7 to you? 8 : Nah. 9 : Okay. Fair enough. And 10 then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks 11 like a template is attached here. 12 "(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide 13 prevention program, suicide reconstruction 14 materials." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : Would have you been the 17 one that would have gathered these things for 18 him? 19 : No. You probably -. 20 Typically, when this happens, this comes from, 21 when I used to do them, I would make contact 22 with someone in the institution, to get it. 23 So, you might -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- have the executive EFTA00058944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 assistant -- 2 : Yeah. 3 get the information. 4 : So, it says, "I am 5 attaching a list of materials we use to 6 complete the reconstruction. We routinely take 7 these documents with us, so please ensure that 8 a copy of any documents you also need." 9 : Right. 10 : It says, "Your assistance 11 in gathering these documents, appreciate it, 12 will be helpful." So, you would just, you 13 would provide that to, like, or 14 someone? 15 : Yeah. We tell the 16 hey, I need you to gather this information, and 17 it might not be . It could be the 18 chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do 19 it. 20 : Okay. But as far as you 21 know, was that completed? Did he show up and 22 do that? 23 : I wasn't at the institution. 24 : Oh, okay. 25 : I -- EFTA00058945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, you -- 2 : I was removed from the 3 institution. 4 : -- when were you removed 5 from the institution? 6 : Monday. 7 : Monday, August 12th? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. That's what I was 10 kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't 11 clear with my question. I was wondering if 12 something happened to you after this, that you 13 were removed and no longer -- 14 : No. They just told me, go 15 report to the region. 16 : -- all right. So, as of 17 Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer 18 at the MCC? 19 : I was no longer at the MCC. 20 : And did you ever go back 21 after that? 22 : No, I didn't. 23 : Okay. So, that was 24 Okay. 25 : Well, I did today, to go EFTA00058946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 park. 2 : Okay. But after this 3 instance, and you were not really involved 4 after that, then? 5 : That was it. I didn't have 6 any -. 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. You check in today. 8 Did you just say? 9 : No, I had to park a vehicle, 10 because I had to -. I had the government 11 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so 12 parked there, and took the train out, 13 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 14 : I think when we started, and 15 asked when you started at the regional 16 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 17 : So, the problem is, and he 18 was talking about job title. My job title 19 still remained the same. 20 : As 21 : As in New York, 22 and it wasn't removed until 2020. 23 : Okay. Well, now, but as of 24 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the 25 region? EFTA00058947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp. 2 *00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I 3 had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office. 4 And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you 5 know, we're signing you up to the regional 6 office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why 7 I was being removed. And I was just told to go 8 up there. So, that's what transpired. 9 : Was there another in 10 place? 11 : They brought another one in. 12 : So, there was two people with 13 the title of at that point? 14 : Well, they had 15 (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and 16 (Phonetic Sp. *01:00:01). She is. 17 : Okay. 18 : All right So, if you 19 don't mind, just initialing and dating that. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : We'll get that out of 22 your way. So, this looks like this answers our 23 question. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, this is an email from EFTA00058948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to yourself. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And it just says, "FYI, 4 from Dr. , regarding her last interaction 5 with Epstein, prior to her departure on 6 Thursday." 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Dr. was the 9 psychologist at MCC? 10 : Yes. 11 : Correct? 12 : She was the chief 13 psychologist. 14 : Okay. Great. And it 15 says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on 16 Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- 2019. "He was getting 19 ready to meet with his attorneys for the day, 20 so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU 21 meeting. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : He had a cellmate at the 24 time, with whom I saw him interact with. He 25 did not report any medical, or any mental EFTA00058949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal 2 thoughts or intention. He was asking the 3 writer to go to general population and was 4 making requests for various leads he had at the 5 time. He wanted social calls without them 6 being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he 7 had left in the suicide watch area. 8 His mood was not depressed or anxious. 9 There were no signs of stress. He had planned 10 on meeting with his attorneys to work on his 11 legal situation." So, there is that. And 12 then, there is also, I don't know if this was 13 attached. , I don't know how this was 14 printed, but it also looks like all the 15 contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month. 16 Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. 17 And after the -". It does say that there was a 18 contact that looks like, on the 31st. 19 MR. HAYES: What does he mean by 20 "contact"? 21 : A psychology contact. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. 23 : And then, here's one, 24 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 : -- being conducted. What 2 is SRA? Do you know? 3 : It's a seg group. 4 Segregation review. 5 MR. HAYES: Oh. 6 : So, it says -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- it says, "Court sent a 9 form. Suicidal tendencies." 10 : No. That must be a 11 psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. 12 If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. 13 : Okay. And it says, "On 14 August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicidality, 15 friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive 16 Jewish against his religion, still denied 17 knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when 18 he was discovered with a string loosely tied 19 around his neck. Said his incident report for 20 self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is 21 talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in 22 SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going 23 back to his normal life." And again, it say 24 that 8/8/ 2019 was with Dr. , what I just 25 EFTA00058951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Right. 2 -- read. And on 3 8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible 4 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible 5 *01:02:40). 6 : Yeah. You don't have to 7 always. 8 : So, yeah, then maybe 9 those weren't required. 10 : No. 11 : Yeah, do you mind, maybe 12 the bottom on this one? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : That wasn't attached to the 15 email. That was just a separate document. 16 : Oh, that's a separate 17 document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to 18 psychology? All right. And this is the last 19 one to cover what psychology. This was an 20 email that was sent out by a Darlene Imeri. 21 To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation 22 update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it 23 says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 24 psych observation and needs to housed with an 25 appropriate cellmate." EFTA00058952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. Darlene, and it just 3 says everyone who is attached to this sent, 4 this was sent to. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Is this something that 7 they normally do, after someone comes off of 8 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 9 send this out to everyone? Or was it a special 10 case for this? 11 : No. It's typical. 12 : That's typical? 13 : Typical. Because you have 14 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 15 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 16 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 17 their units. In his case, he was going back to 18 the Special Housing Unit. 19 : Okay. Great. Do you 20 mind just initial and dating that? And that 21 was - is it their job to determine if a 22 cellmate has to be housed with another 23 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed 24 with another inmate. 25 : Well, typically, I mean, EFTA00058953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 it's just - if there's nothing in policy that 2 sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional 3 setting, if somebody has been on, you know, 4 attempted suicide, or attempted to self- 5 mutilation, you usually put them in with 6 someone. 7 : Okay. So, were you or 8 your staff involved with the decision to have 9 Epstein removed from suicide watch or 10 psychological observation? 11 : Psychology makes the 12 determination that the individual is, you know, 13 no longer suicidal. This is for any inmate. 14 : Sure. 15 : Is no longer suicidal. And 16 there is no reason for him to be on suicide 17 watch. So, they either get released wherever 18 they came from, whether it was the general 19 population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. 20 : So, on background on 21 that So, one of the individuals in psychology 22 department -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- who would meet with 25 Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, EFTA00058954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 one of the steps down with Dr. , as well 2 as II 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : And I was informed that 5 that is kind of pretty routine, that that is 6 conducted in coordination with executive staff 7 members. Is that -- 8 : Right. That is. 9 : -- so, that's where I 10 want to make sure that I'm understanding -- 11 : We do. 12 : -- what you are saying. 13 : But we also do, we have what 14 we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in 15 our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly 16 meeting, and if there are any issues, that's 17 brought up in the meeting. 18 : Okay. So, is it solely, 19 though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes 20 from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, 21 and again, psych observation back to a housing 22 unit? Is that their call, or can, does the 23 executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside 24 of psychology, have an influence on that? 25 : Psychology are the subject EFTA00058955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 matter experts. They are the doctors. They 2 release someone off of suicide watch. I can't 3 - if an individual is on suicide watch - I 4 can't turn around and come in there, and say, 5 take him off. 6 : Sure. 7 : I'm not a trained 8 psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on 9 there. But then, you know, after hours, or if 10 it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, 11 any staff member could put him on there. 12 : Okay. 13 : But as far as taking him 14 off, you have to have a medical reason, as far 15 as them coming off. 16 : So, in that interview 17 with that individual, they said the decision 18 was discussed with II and that 19 individual concurred with that decision. If 20 they didn't concur, though, would that matter 21 to them? 22 : What do you mean, if the II 23 didn't concur with it? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : I mean, I don't want to use EFTA00058956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're 2 keeping, they're keeping us informed, saying, 3 okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. 4 Now, let's say I come in and interject and say, 5 no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning 6 for putting him on there? 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : What medical degree do I 9 have to justify keeping an individual on 10 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 11 other way. I decide to turn around and do 12 something like that, I would be having a 13 conversation with you about something else. 14 : Sure. 15 : So. 16 : Okay. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, is it more to keep 19 you apprise -- 20 : To keep us apprised -- 21 : -- if anything else? 22 you know, and saying, 23 hey, this is the way we're removing an 24 individual, and we move forward. I mean, 25 obviously, we will have questions. You know, 87 EFTA00058957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 2 3 4 5 if we had questions. MR. HAYES: Guys, I want to go for a second. All right? : Okay. MR. HAYES: I got to go pee. 6 : Do you want us to 7 continue or wait? 8 MR. HAYES: No, just stay by me. Oh, 9 don't continue. I'll be right back. 10 : Absolutely. I'm going to 11 pause this recording then. It is currently 12 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 13 This is Special Agent , and I 14 am pausing the recording. 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 16 off the record and back on the record). 17 : All right. The recorder 18 is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, 19 short break. , just reminding you 20 that you are under oath. 21 : Okay. 22 : All right. Sorry. 23 Address these. 24 : Oh. 25 : All right. So, the last EFTA00058958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 that we discussed was that psychology said that 2 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 3 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 4 sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes 5 placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made 6 at a higher level than yourself? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. And who made that 9 decision? 10 : I don't know. Listen. 11 know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, 12 the two inmates that, that would kind of 13 figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent 14 those names to the director's office. 15 : Okay. 16 : And it was Kevin Pistro was 17 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 18 told me that they had to run it up to the 19 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 20 in the department. And it got back, and my 21 boss said that, too, you know, that's a good 22 choice. 23 : Okay. 24 : Yeah. 25 : And that's EFTA00058959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 again? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. Great. But it was 4 based upon a list that you provided? 5 : Yeah. There were some 6 names. Because I - fast forward - I got a 7 call, and we were gearing towards getting him 8 out to general population. 9 : Oh, so, you wanted 10 Epstein to actually be in general pop? 11 : I didn't want -. That's 12 what typically happens. You know 13 : Sure. 14 : -- you don't want an inmate 15 in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot 16 of high-profile individuals that come in the 17 institution. You know, we do our intelligence 18 gathering, to see, okay, what would be an 19 appropriate unit for them to be in? And we 20 place them. And then, we monitor them. If, 21 you know, and that is how we move them into 22 general population. I get a call saying, hold 23 up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. 24 : And who called you? 25 MR. HAYES: Did he qualify as a pedophile? EFTA00058960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I don't I didn't 2 MR. HAYES: Okay. 3 : Read. But that's -. We 4 didn't -- 5 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 6 : -- you know, so that's not 7 feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, 8 get a call, and they said hold up on that. He 9 needs to stay where he's at. 10 : Okay. 11 : So. 12 : And I'm sorry. Who was 13 it that called you to say stay? 14 -: . And then, 15 that's when I had to send up the names. 1 16 guess he had gotten some from the department. 17 I don't know who he talked to in the 18 department. 19 : Oh, so, coming out of 20 psych observation, you were looking to send him 21 back to general pop. 22 : No. 23 : Or not back to. Into. 24 : When he first came in, the 25 whole process was -- EFTA00058961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 : Oh, I see. 2 : -- to get him out to general 3 population. 4 : I gotcha. So, back, you 5 are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 6 : Yeah, we're talking about -- 7 : -- that timeframe. 8 the whole thing, and 9 then, even, you know, coming out of psych 10 observations when he got in, the plan was still 11 to get him into general population. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : I mean, we had the attorneys 14 contacting our legal, why can't he be in 15 general population? 16 : Sure. 17 : So, and then, that is when I 18 got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't 19 know who he talked to in the department - but 20 it was, like, hold on. 21 : And on that note, I guess 22 this would be a good time to talk about this. 23 Being that it was ultimately decided that he go 24 into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, 25 was it discussed at all that he be placed on EFTA00058962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs 2 inmates? 3 : So, here's the problems with 4 Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and 5 there's SAMS things in there. The amount of 6 attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't 7 have those attorneys coming up to that unit 8 every day, and, you know, breaching the 9 security of it, and then, tying up the movement 10 in there, because when an attorney comes in 11 there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's 12 planned, and they are in there. Epstein's 13 attorneys were coming in early in the morning, 14 and weren't leaving until late at night. And 15 it was about four or five of them. So -- 16 MR. HAYES: And guess who's paying his 17 bill? 18 : -- right. That's not an 19 appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit 20 is for. 21 : Now, what about, like, 22 if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. 23 *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels 24 that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with 25 that, or did they have attorneys visiting them EFTA00058963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or no? 2 : They did, but it wasn't to 3 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 4 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 5 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 6 trial, then they would - you would see them 7 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one the 8 attorneys, they were in there from the 9 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 10 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 11 the rooms. 12 : Mm-hmm. So -- 13 : So. 14 : -- the primary reason why 15 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 16 attorney visits? 17 : Well, not the attorney 18 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 19 : Okay. 20 : And he's not a SAMs inmate. 21 And then -. 22 MR. HAYES: What's a SAMs unit? 23 : Special Administrative 24 Measures. That means, you know, strict 25 communication. And there's a lot that goes on EFTA00058964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to 2 be up there. 3 : Now, were some of those 4 other high-profile inmates, though, such as El 5 Chapo, and who were some of the people that 6 were in there? 7 : Yeah. The terrorists up 8 there. 9 : But the non-terrorists. 10 Meaning, the people that -. There was a few -- 11 : Well, you had Schulte, but 12 he was in for espionage, and had a SAMs on him. 13 So, he -- 14 : Now, did El Chapo have a 15 SAMs on him? 16 : -- he had -. No. His 17 status was based on, and I know there was 18 (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status 19 : Sure. 20 and stuff. So, he was a 21 high profile person that had escaped from 22 another prison before -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 so, that was an 25 appropriate place to place him. EFTA00058965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : I see. : Schulte was in general 3 population, and a SAMs was placed on him by his 4 attorney -- 5 MR. HAYES: What was the other name again? 6 : -- Schulte. And he was 7 placed up there. 8 MR. HAYES: Can I ask you -- 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. HAYES: -- a totally irrelevant 11 question? 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. HAYES: What was El Chapo like? 14 : Just like any other inmate. 15 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 16 : Yeah. Just like any other 17 inmate. 18 MR. HAYES: Polite? 19 : Polite. You know, no 20 problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit 21 to be housing inmate Epstein. 22 : Now, did you even have 23 the authority to place him in Ten South, if you 24 wanted to? 25 : I mean, I could have, but EFTA00058966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 would have had to have, you know, some 2 justification as to why I'm, I'm putting him up 3 there. And there would have been push back 4 from his attorneys. 5 : Okay. Because some 6 people had mentioned that, saying 7 doesn't even have the ability to do that. That 8 comes from a higher level. 9 : I mean -- 10 : Is that -- 11 : -- in essence -- 12 : -- accurate, or -? 13 in essence, it does 14 because I would have had to explain and justify 15 why, you know, certain inmates with certain 16 crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing 17 him? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And then, the fact that, you 20 know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs 21 access to his attorneys, that unit is just too 22 restrictive for that. 23 : Now - and this is a total 24 Monday morning quarterback -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 : -- do you stand by the 2 decision that he would be in Nine South, or do 3 you think he should have been in Ten South, or 4 what are your thoughts on that? 5 : I think he was appropriately 6 placed. 7 : Okay. So, Nine South -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- was the -- 10 : That was the appropriate -- 11 : -- appropriate place for 12 him? 13 : -- place for him. 14 : Okay. 15 : Quick question. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Do you recall if there were 18 inmates in Ten South during that time? 19 : Where? 20 : In -- 21 : Yes, there were. 22 : -- yeah. Do you know who 23 those inmates were? 24 : El Chapo had left. I got 25 the one that ran the call with people in EFTA00058968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Brooklyn. He was there. 2 MR. HAYES: What was his name? 3 : I forget. 4 MR. HAYES: What did he do? What was he 5 in there for? 6 : That's the one that killed 7 the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran 8 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah. 9 : -- the vehicle into them. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah, and then the guy kicked 11 the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). 14 : He was there. I remember 15 Schulte. There was another guy that was, it 16 had something to do with Osama Bin Laden. 17 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 18 : Who else? We had a younger 19 terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it 20 was -. They were all terrorists in, on 21 espionage charges. 22 : All right. So, this is 23 along what we were just discussing. It says 24 that, this is from an , who's just 25 a supervisory staff attorney. EFTA00058969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 : Right. 2 : What does this CLC stand 3 for? 4 : It's the Combined -. He, 5 he, he's the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn 6 and New York. 7 : Okay. 8 : At the time. 9 : So, he's kind of, like, 10 the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York? 11 : Yeah. He was the 12 supervisory attorney. So -- 13 : Okay. 14 he was in charge. 15 : All right. So, this was 16 to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th, 17 2019. It says, per our conversation, 18 I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday, 19 August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his 20 request for access to water in attorney 21 conference." 22 : Right. 23 : "Attorney Mariel Colon," 24 so, M-A-R-I-E-L. Next word, C-O-L-O-N. "With 25 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had EFTA00058970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 2 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 3 : Cadre is the camp. 4 : Is that low level? 5 : It's like our lower security 6 inmates. Yeah. 7 : So, you have an actual 8 camp at the MCC? 9 : It's low security inmates. 10 But remember, they are designated. So, we 11 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 12 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 13 inmates together. 14 : Okay. It says, "I 15 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 16 inmate. 17 : Right. 18 : "Later that day, but 19 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 20 attorney on the phone. He had 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 23 not, based on his prior suicide 24 attempt/gesture." 25 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of EFTA00058971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 5 charging him $2,000 an hour. 6 : "He acknowledged that he 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 11 if you need any further information." Now, was 12 this just a request to any contact that he had 13 with his attorneys? 14 : He was just keeping me 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 every day, with different types of requests. 17 : But this was the day, 18 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 19 would -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- he's talking about 22 context, just literally the previous day -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- that he was looking 25 for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00058972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But all right. If -. 3 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 4 : Excuse me? 5 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 7 : Oh. Now, this answers 8 our question from before. So, this actually 9 says, it's from you to , it says 10 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 11 were looking at. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, it looks like July 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 15 again, all these -- 16 : These are the attorney 17 assignment. 18 : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:18:43). 20 : Yeah. 21 : Yeah. So, that does now 22 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 23 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 24 : Okay. 25 : Or the body. Okay. EFTA00058973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 2 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 3 : We're coming to - hey - 4 we're almost halfway through. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 7 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 8 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 9 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 10 tomorrow's. 11 : Well. 12 : Now, you've already 13 answered this, but did you work at the MCC or. 14 August 9th? 15 : For that -- 16 : 2019. 17 was Friday. Friday, I 18 was off. 19 : What about on August 20 10th, 2019? 21 : 10th was a Saturday -- 22 : Correct. 23 : I was, I worked on 24 Saturday. 25 : All right. But did you EFTA00058974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 work in response to this? 2 : No. I had to respond, if 3 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- yeah, I had to respond if 6 I came in. 7 : Okay. So, but you 8 weren't scheduled to work? 9 : No. I wasn't scheduled to 10 work. 11 : All right. This is just 12 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 13 case you need to reference it - these are 14 emails that were from you to , with 15 the staff roster. 16 : Right. 17 : And the reason I'm using 18 these is because these were literally sent on 19 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 20 rely on these -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- based upon being so 23 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 24 It's showing who was working that day. And 25 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, EFTA00058975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 showing who was -- 2 : This is a correctional 3 roster. 4 : -- correct. 5 : Okay. 6 : Correct. This is a 7 correctional roster. Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, who was, basically 10 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 11 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 12 aside from correctional? 13 : Well, the correctional 14 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 15 roster. 16 : Like, R&D wouldn't do 17 anything like that? 18 : No. Because their staff are 19 already assigned to where they are working at. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. And they have rosters 22 that show where everyone is working at. But 23 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 24 : Okay. So, I'm going to 25 have you just initial and date. I'm going to EFTA00058976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need 2 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 3 need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- 5 : There's two on there. 6 : -- and what. Yes, 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 10 not attached to your email. Right? 11 : Yeah. You are right. 12 : So, the August 9th one 13 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. So, we had to pull 16 that from -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- just for full 19 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 : That they were notified? EFTA00058977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 : So, how -. So, Dr. Imeri 2 or Mrs. Imeri sent out that email, saying -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- Epstein is required to 5 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 6 : Right. 7 : Who was required to make 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 aware of that requirement? 10 : Well, the captain passes it 11 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 12 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 13 if they are required a cellmate -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- that, you know, that he - 16 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 17 leaves or goes out. 18 : Now, someone such as an 19 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 : In the Special Housing Unit, 24 anybody working in there would know that he was 25 supposed to have a cellmate. EFTA00058978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 : Do you believe that there 2 was anybody - especially anybody that's got a 3 quarterly bit of post there -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- but anybody that's 6 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 7 you believe that there could be a reason why 8 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 9 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 10 an acceptable excuse? 11 : Because you had the staff 12 that usually work up there, were up there. It 13 should be, it should have been annotated on his 14 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 15 : The hot list, you are 16 referring to, or -- 17 : No. Not the hot list. 18 : -- or what? Oh, you 19 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 20 SHU -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- file. 23 : The SHU file. It should be 24 annotated on the SHU file because, when you 25 come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00058979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 2 would have been on there, it would have been on 3 there, too. So. 4 : Would it have also been 5 on the hot list, though? 6 MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. HAYES: What does the hot list mean? 9 : It's just -- 10 : That's -- 11 : -- sorry. 12 : -- yeah. I guess the high 13 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 14 MR. HAYES: Whether it's suicide, or high 15 risk for some other kind of problem? 16 : It could be -. It's mainly 17 for, like, suicide, just to -- 18 MR. HAYES: Medical. 19 : -- to watch out for. Yeah. 20 Medical. Okay. 21 MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff 22 like that? 23 : Yeah. So. 24 : So, point being is, do 25 you think that, if any staff that is working in EFTA00058980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 2 : Right. 3 : -- in the morning of 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- the morning of August 7 10th. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : SHU staff that is working 10 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 11 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 12 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 13 for them to say that we didn't know he was 14 required to have a cellmate? 15 : No, because they did know, 16 because I - from what I understand - someone 17 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 18 they knew. 19 : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 21 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 22 open a box. 23 : Absolutely. 24 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to have 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going EFTA00058981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to bother anybody? 2 : No. No. 3 : No. No. 4 : No, no, no, no. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. 6 : I'm sorry, I thought you 7 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 8 situation of if we were in the MCC or 9 something. 10 : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. No. This is just a 12 13 : You're just wanting to 14 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 15 fine. 16 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 17 : I guess we should wait 18 until he gets -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- back again. If we 21 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 22 questions? 23 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 24 : All right. We're going 25 to continue, then. The answer was yes. EFTA00058982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : I don't know if that was 2 somebody. 3 : There might be clients in the 4 office. 5 : Oh. 6 : Huh? 7 : Okay. 8 : That's why. 9 : Then we will wait. 10 : He wasn't kidding about the 11 knife. 12 : Oh. 13 MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 14 movie called Gangs of New York. 15 : That's a great movie. 16 MR. HAYES: And he - and a good movie 17 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 18 Diaz. 19 : Sure. 20 MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 23 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00058983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it. 2 : That's super cool. 3 MR. HAYES: So. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Sorry. I'll ask a few 6 more questions before we get into these 7 documents. Were any plans made on how to 8 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 9 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 10 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 11 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 12 : No. I mean, the plan would 13 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 14 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 15 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 16 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 17 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 18 assessment would have been made. 19 : Okay. Now, what is your 20 understanding of what happened with inmate 21 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 22 : When I got back after the 23 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 24 from the institution. 25 : Okay. So, there is a lot EFTA00058984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 of people we've talked to thought he went to 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he 3 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 4 : That's what I heard, too. I 5 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 6 gues