DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00060373 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00060374 I 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is and I'm a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 : Thank you, sir. 7 : This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee 9 is being conducted as part of an 10 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 11 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 12 date is July 14, 2021 and the time is 1:14 p.m. 13 : Yes. 14 : This interview is being 15 conducted at the Metropolitan Correctional 16 Center in New York, New York, also known as the 17 MCC. Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 18 This interview will be recorded 19 by me, SSA Could everyone 20 please identify themselves for the record and 21 spell your last name. To start, again, I am 22 DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 23 24 : This is DOJ OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00060375 4 1 : Lieutenant 2 , work for the Bureau of Prisons at MCC 3 New York. 4 : Could you just spell your 5 last name for the record? 6 7 : Thank you, sir. This is 8 an official DOJ OIG investigation into the 9 death of inmate Jeffery Epstein and the 10 surrounding circumstances and you're being 11 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 12 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 13 interview with the DOJ OIG? 14 : Yes. 15 : Yes, thank you. All 16 right, so we got that form, it's the DOJ OIG 17 form I1I-226/2. It says, "The United States 18 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 19 General Warnings and Assurances to Employee 20 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 21 Basis. You are being asked to provide 22 information as part of an investigation being 23 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 24 General. This investigation is being conducted 25 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, EFTA00060376 5 1 as amended. This investigation pertains to 2 security failure and job performance failure. 3 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 4 you do not have to answer questions. No 5 disciplinary action will be taken against you 6 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 7 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 8 in any future criminal proceedings or agency 9 disciplinary proceeding or both." And there's 10 a waiver section. It says, "I understand the 11 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 12 willing to make a statement and answer 13 questions. No promises or threats have been 14 made to me and no pressure or coercion of any 15 kind has been used against me." And as 16 mentioned, this is something that we provide 17 everybody for voluntary interviews, so you're 18 being asked, you know, we just provide these 19 warnings to everyone just knowing it's 20 voluntary, you can stop at any time, you don't 21 have to answer our questions. Do you 22 understand? 23 : Yes, sir, I understand. 24 : All right. So, if you 25 want to review it yourself, please feel free, EFTA00060377 6 1 otherwise there's an employee signature and 2 then employee name below. Thank you for 3 signing, sir. I'm going to sign for the Office 4 of the Inspector General Special Agent. And 5 I'm writing my name, The 6 date is 7/14/2021. 7 : 1:16. 8 : The place is - the time 9 is 1:16 -- 10 : Sixteen. 11 : -- p.m. The place is MCC 12 New York. Special Agent , can you please 13 sign as the signature witness and place your 14 name as the name of witness. 15 : This is Special Agent 16 , I'm signing as a witness. 17 : And as I mentioned, 18 Lieutenant , I believe, were you 19 interviewed prior by the 0IG and the FBI? 20 : Yes, I was. 21 : All right, as mentioned, 22 there's a report that I have here. I don't 23 even think that it's worth going over because 24 there's not really much in it. So, the reason 25 for us to - for interviewing you is to kind of EFTA00060378 7 1 - you were the OIC is our understanding on 2 August 9th, is that correct -- 3 : Yes. 4 : -- of 2019? And just to 5 kind of ask you questions related to what you 6 know about what happened on August 9th and 7 August 10th of 2019. Before starting the 8 interview, I'd like to place you under oath. 9 Lieutenant , can you please raise your 10 right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and 11 nothing but the truth during this interview? 12 : Yes, I do. 13 : Thank you, sir. If it's 14 something that you don't understand, just ask 15 me to rephrase and I'll try to clarify anything 16 like that. What is your current home address? 17 18 19 : And what is your date of 20 birth? 21 22 : And what is your social 23 security number? 24 25 : What is your current cell EFTA00060379 8 1 phone? 2 -: 3 4 level of education? 5 : High school. 6 : And where did you go to 7 high school? 8 : Graphic Arts in the city. 9 : In New York City? 10 : Yes, New York City. 11 : And what was it called. 12 : Graphic Communication of 13 Arts. 14 : Okay. Cool. Is that 15 like some kind of like -. 16 : It's on 49th Street and 17 10th Avenue. It was a 18 • 19 20 school. 21 • And what is your highest Like a -. : -- advertisement high Oh, that's neat. 22 : Yeah. It was cool. 23 : This is not really to do 24 with the interview, but is that like something 25 you get to, like -. EFTA00060380 9 1 : Well I can draw a little 2 bit and do a little bit of graphic design -- 3 : Oh, neat. 4 : -- from high school. Not 5 too much but that's what I went to high school 6 for. 7 : That's neat. What did 8 you do prior to working for the BOP? 9 : I was in the United States 10 Army and I worked for a hotel. 11 : Okay. As far as being 12 with the Army, when were you in the Army? 13 : I started in 1998. I was 14 in the National Guard and then I went active 15 duty in 2005. 16 : Okay. When did you - are 17 you still in the Reserves? 18 : No, I'm completely done 19 with the military. 20 : When did you get out? 21 : 2011. 22 : Was it an honorable 23 discharge? 24 : Yes it was. 25 : And what was your rank at EFTA00060381 10 1 -. 2 : Corporal. 3 : Corporal? And what was 4 that? E what? 5 : E-4. 6 : E-4. Thank you for your 7 service. And then you said you worked for a 8 hotel, how long did you do that? 9 : Before the military, I did 10 it for three years. I came back, I did it for 11 one year and then I got this job. 12 : Okay. So just prior to 13 being with the BOP -- 14 : Correct. 15 : -- you did - and what did 16 you do there? 17 : Banquet Steward. 18 : And everything with 19 leaving there, was everything copacetic? 20 : Correct. 21 : Okay. How long have you 22 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 23 24 would make seven years. 25 : Seven years? Okay. And EFTA00060382 11 1 do you know your specific enter on duty date? 2 3 : Thank you, sir. When did 4 you graduate from BOP training? 5 6 : Okay. And how long have 7 you been with the MCC? 8 : The whole time, seven years 9 10 : Okay. 11 : -- in September. 12 : You were here the whole 13 time? 14 : Correct. 15 : All right. And you said 16 you're currently a Lieutenant? 17 : Correct. 18 : When were you promoted to 19 Lieutenant? 20 : March 1, 2020, last year. 21 : Okay. And what was your 22 rank or title in August of 2019? 23 : I was a Senior Office 24 Specialist. 25 : Okay. And I have a staff EFTA00060383 12 1 roster here. Here's the - it's going to be on 2 August 9th and then August 10th, it's just for 3 you to refer to, so you don't have to 4 necessarily recall. But what shift did you 5 work on August 9th and August 10th? 6 : So, August 10th, which that 7 should be a Saturday, I was off the weekend and 8 Friday I worked from 6:00 to 2:00 in the 9 Special Housing Unit. 10 : Okay. And what was your 11 position when you were in the Special Housing 12 Unit? 13 : I was an OIC. 14 : And what does OIC stand 15 for? 16 : The Officer in Charge. 17 : And what were those 18 duties and responsibilities as the OIC of the 19 SHU? 20 : Pretty much maintaining 21 paperwork, making sure everything is conducted 22 according to BOP policy. 23 : Okay. And who was your 24 supervisor? 25 EFTA00060384 13 ? It 2 wasn't 3 : Well, actually yes, yes, 4 , I'm sorry, yes. 5 : And he was the SHU 6 Lieutenant? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Great. Now I'm 9 going to - we're going to keep these documents 10 in front of you because as we go through the 11 interview, I'll probably ask you about 12 different people and you can just refer to it. 13 When I do provide you - do you have an extra 14 pen? When I do provide you with documents, do 15 you mind just so that for interview purposes, 16 we - it's not to certify anything is accurate, 17 it's simply to say this is the document that I 18 showed you. So can you just like initial and 19 date on the top of each document that I show 20 you, and it doesn't mean, go through the 21 packet, it's just the top page. So, this one 22 for instance, is the daily assignment roster 23 for Saturday, August 10, 2019 and this one is 24 the daily assignment roster for Friday, August 25 9, 2019. And again, it's simply to - you don't EFTA00060385 14 1 have to do each page, it's just -. 2 : You're not attesting to it. 3 : Yeah. 4 : It's just -. 5 : Yeah. 6 : It's just -. 7 : You're not attesting that 8 it's certified or anything, you know, that it's 9 accurate. It's just to say that these are the 10 documents that we looked at. 11 : Yes, sir. 12 : Would you mind - thank 13 you for initialing. You mind just putting the 14 date? It's 7/14 -- 15 : 14. 16 -- 2021. Thank you, sir. 17 All right. Are you familiar with inmate 18 Jeffrey Epstein? 19 : Yes. 20 : Did you work in the SHU 21 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU in July 22 and August of 2019? 23 : Yes. 24 : During that time, did 25 Epstein have a cellmate? EFTA00060386 15 1 2 3 cellmate was? 4 : Yes, he did. : Do you recall who that : I don't know, it was a 5 Spanish guy, I don't remember his name exactly. 6 : So I'm assuming you're 7 talking about the second of the two inmates. 8 : The first one was 9 The second one maybe 10 , does that sound -. 11 , yes. 12 : Okay. So -. 13 : Older gentleman -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- walked with a cane. 16 : And do you know if there 17 was a specific reason why those cellmates were 18 assigned to Epstein? 19 : I think Psychology said 20 it's just their category, they're older, same 21 age. 22 : Okay. So are you aware, 23 since you said Psychology, did Psychology say 24 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 25 : Well, we always practice, EFTA00060387 16 1 if somebody comes off of suicide watch, they 2 have to go with a cellmate until Psychology 3 clears them to be alone. 4 : Okay. 5 : But whoever has history of 6 trying to commit suicide has to go with a 7 bunkie. 8 : Okay. So were you aware 9 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 10 July 23rd -- 11 : Yes, I was. 12 : -- of 2019? Were you one 13 of the responding officers? 14 : No, I was not. 15 : Do you know what 16 transpired on that date? 17 : No, I do not. 18 : Did you hear anything 19 about him either trying to commit suicide or 20 potentially that 21 him? 22 attempted to harm : I saw that in the papers 23 that wanted to harm him but all I 24 heard that he was trying to commit suicide. 25 : All right, do you - is EFTA00060388 17 1 2 there any reason for you to believe that was trying to harm him? 3 : No. 4 : No? 5 : They always got along. 6 : They did always get 7 along? 8 : Yes, sir. They'd always 9 get along. 10 : Okay. And then you said, 11 following that attempt, he was placed - Epstein 12 was placed on suicide watch? 13 : Yes, with being watched on 14 the second floor. 15 : Okay. And what floor is 16 the SHU on? 17 : 9th. 18 : The 9th floor. Okay. So 19 the suicide watch and the psychological 20 observation area is all on the 2nd floor? 21 : Correct. 22 : All right. Was he 23 removed from suicide watch? 24 : Yes he was, afterwards. 25 : Do you have any idea EFTA00060389 18 1 around when that was? 2 3 4 about right? 5 : That I do not remember. : Does July 30, 2019 sound : I wouldn't -. 6 : Or, I guess I should ask 7 this question first. Is there a difference 8 between suicide watch and psychological 9 observation? 10 : Well, psychological 11 observation, you would have all your clothes 12 on. 13 : Okay. 14 : Suicide watch is because 15 you attempted suicide so you're going to be 16 with a smock, in the nude, just a suicide smock 17 and some booties 18 : Okay. 19 -- with nothing else. 20 : And do you know if the 21 entire time that Epstein was on the 2nd floor 22 outside of the SHU, was he in the suicide watch 23 or was he both suicide watch and psychological? 24 : If I'm not mistaken, he was 25 on suicide watch the whole time. EFTA00060390 19 1 : Okay. So you believe 2 that he was actually -- 3 : Yes. 4 : -- in a smock the whole 5 time. 6 : Correct. 7 : Okay. And what does 8 suicide watch entail? 9 : You're being watched 24 10 hours. 11 : By who? 12 : By an inmate or staff. 13 : Okay. And do you know if 14 Epstein was watched by either or, or both. 15 : I think he was just by 16 inmates, if I'm not mistaken. 17 : Inmates and what is the 18 inmates' responsibilities while they're 19 watching him? 20 : Well, they constantly 21 observe you in every - they got to annotate 22 every round that they do, or every 15 minutes 23 they write down what the inmate is doing. 24 : Okay. Did you ever hear 25 of any issues or anything while he was on EFTA00060391 20 1 there? 2 : No. 3 : No? 4 : No. 5 : And what's the 6 difference, what does the psychological 7 observation? 8 : Psychological observation 9 is pretty much is - you're in the same place, 10 just with your clothes on. 11 : And same, you have an 12 inmate (Indiscernible *00:12:35) -. 13 : You have an inmate watching 14 you at all times, yes. 15 : Okay. So for both, it's 16 the same, just the clothes is the only 17 difference? 18 : Correct. 19 : Okay. Did you receive 20 instructions from anyone regarding Epstein 21 being assigned a cellmate after he came back 22 from the 2nd floor and placed back into the 23 SHU? 24 : No. I just did it on my 25 own. EFTA00060392 21 1 : Okay. So no one - you 2 don't recall ever being instructed -- 3 : No, I -. 4 : -- to place him with -. 5 : I don't recall getting a 6 phone call saying, "Put him -" - like I said 7 before, it's we practice, if you're leaving the 8 2nd floor, you automatically go upstairs with a 9 celimate. 10 : Okay. So, did you ever 11 receive any kind of information from either 12 or Psychology saying that 13 Epstein was required to be housed with a cell 14 mate? 15 : Well we knew already and 16 pretty much said, "G, don't 17 forget to put him with a bunkie." 18 : Okay. Did you - and I 19 don't believe that you received it directly, 20 but did you ever see this email? It says - 21 sorry, let me see, it's , who is 22 that? 23 : That used to - she was a 24 Psychologist, one of the Psychologists in the 25 building. EFTA00060393 22 1 : Okay. And it says, it's 2 to "Suicide Watch/Psych Observation update." 3 It says it's dated July 30, 2019 at 12:30 p.m. 4 The subject of the email says, "Inmate Epstein 5 is being taken off of psych observation and 6 needs to be housed with an appropriate 7 cellmate." Did you ever see that by chance? 8 : No. I don't remember this. 9 : Okay. But you knew that 10 he was required to have a cellmate. 11 : Yes. 12 : All right. And you said 13 did inform you? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. Did you mind just 16 -- 17 : Oh. 18 : -- initialing and dating 19 that? So you don't recall ever receiving any 20 other written 21 : No. 22 : -- communication 23 regarding the matter? After 24 spoke with you about him being required to have 25 a cellmate, did you communicate that EFTA00060394 23 1 requirement to anyone else in the SHU? 2 : Just in SHU. "All right 3 guys, he needs a bunkie." 4 : Okay. And was that 5 something that you communicated only on the 6 date he came back on July 30 or would that be 7 something that you all would communicate 8 throughout his stay in the SHU? 9 : Well, we constantly just 10 made sure since he was a high-profile inmate 11 and we actually placed him right on the top 12 tier so where we can see - where the OIC bubble 13 was right on top just because of that reason 14 and we, "Hey, you got a bunkie?" "Yes." 15 Because he was always going to his legal visits 16 pretty much the whole day. 17 : Right. 18 : When he came back, made 19 sure he had a bunkie. 20 : Okay. And would you also 21 work then that night watch in the SHU? 22 : Was I working? 23 : Not that day, but in 24 between July 30th and August 9th, do you know 25 if you would have worked that night watch? EFTA00060395 24 1 : I'm pretty sure I did. I'm 2 pretty sure I did. And all my overtime was 3 always in the SHU. 4 : Okay. And do you believe 5 then that everyone who worked in the SHU would 6 have known that inmate Epstein was required to 7 have a cell mate? 8 : Yes. 9 : All right. And what 10 makes you believe that? 11 : It's part of pretty much 12 the SHU training. 13 : Okay. When you say, "SHU 14 training," what training are you referring to 15 and what was taught? 16 : Special Housing Unit 17 training is, once again, the policy of what to 18 do in Special Housing Unit, how to conduct 19 rounds, how to deal with an inmate that is 20 coming off of suicide watch and part of our SHU 21 training is the psychologists speaking to us 22 and breaking down and what to do when an inmate 23 comes off suicide watch, what signs to look for 24 and pretty much making sure you're doing the 25 right thing when somebody comes up from suicide EFTA00060396 25 1 watch. 2 : Okay. So is there any 3 way that people would know that if they didn't 4 attend the quarterly - you're talking about the 5 quarterly SHU training? 6 : Correct. 7 : Is there any way that 8 people that didn't - like people on overtime 9 shifts or people that didn't actually get to 10 take that quarterly training yet, would know 11 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 12 : No, they would not know 13 that. 14 : They would not know? 15 : They would not know that. 16 : And did you communicate 17 with people though? I know you're saying that 18 they knew based upon training, but did you ever 19 communicate with the people working in the SHU 20 that Epstein was required to have a bunk mate 21 at all times? 22 : Well, whoever worked in SHU 23 would pass it down, "Hey, make sure this guy 24 stays with - whether it's him or anybody 25 else, I know we're talking specifically about EFTA00060397 26 1 him, but whether it was him or anybody else, we 2 all would say, "Hey, make sure this guy has a 3 bunkie." 4 : Okay. But you can't 5 remember any specific conversations? 6 : No. No. 7 : Okay. Were there any 8 signs hanging up anywhere in the SHU that said 9 Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 10 : No. 11 : All right. 12 : Not that I -. 13 : So someone mentioned that 14 -. 15 : So, I put one of my own - 16 it was in bright orange paper. I put it next 17 to the computer. It's nothing like from BOP or 18 anything, it was just something between us, 19 that said, "Make sure rounds are conducted and 20 he has a bunkie at all times." Yes, that was 21 me. 22 : Okay. So this document 23 I'm showing, it says, "Mandatory rounds must be 24 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per 25 God." This is what you're referring to? And EFTA00060398 27 1 where was this hanging? 2 3 right next to it. 4 On the SHU OIC computer, : All right. Awesome. So 5 I was assuming that this might be a confusion, 6 but someone mentioned that there was also a 7 color document saying that Epstein was required 8 to have a cell mate. Was that ever on the OIC 9 computer or anywhere else? 10 : You know what? If it was 11 color, it was - I probably made it because we 12 always had a stack of orange, that was my 13 telling everybody, "Do what you're supposed to 14 do." 15 : Okay. 16 : But I did this, I know, 17 because I typed it up and I put it up there. 18 Now the 19 : So this is the one that 20 you remember is the -- 21 : Correct. 22 : -- one I just showed you. 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. And that was on 25 the OIC's computer? EFTA00060399 28 1 : There's two computers on 2 the desk. If you see, it's right like you 3 can't miss it. 4 : And is -. 5 : It's bright orange paper 6 and black lettering. 7 : And is that where 8 everybody that works in the SHU, are they all 9 in that same area? 10 : Everybody goes to that 11 station. 12 : So everybody that was in 13 the SHU or ever worked in the SHU would have 14 seen at least that document that you created? 15 : Yes. 16 : And do you remember when 17 that document was created? 18 : I think I did that maybe a 19 couple of weeks after he came upstairs. 20 : And is that initially or 21 after he came back from suicide watch? 22 : The first time he went 23 down, when he came up the second time. 24 : Okay. 25 That - when he was EFTA00060400 29 1 : Sometime after July 30th 2 but prior to August 9th -- 3 : Correct. 4 : -- it would have been up. 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. You can't remember 7 - sometime between there. Definitely prior to 8 August 9th. 9 : Definitely prior to him 10 coming - or that happening. 11 : And do you believe it was 12 at least a few days prior to that as well? 13 : It think it was maybe as 14 soon as he came upstairs from suicide watch -- 15 : Okay. 16 : I put it up there. 17 : Okay. But certainly 18 prior to August 9, 2019. 19 : Correct, yes. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yes. 22 : And you do not require 23 any signs identifying Epstein's cellmate 24 requirement? Was there ever anything on 25 Epstein's cell door, even on July 30th or EFTA00060401 30 1 anything like that? Do you recall anything 2 like that? 3 : I mean, we had orange paper 4 hanging all over the place, but I don't recall 5 one saying he has to have a bunkie. 6 : Okay. 7 : We practice, you come up 8 from suicide watch, you get a bunkie 9 : All right. 10 : -- no matter who you are. 11 : Got a question here. 12 : Yeah, go ahead. 13 : As for God, is that referring 14 to somebody or God? 15 : That's just, you know, 16 okay, God is watching us, we got to do the 17 right thing. 18 : Okay. 19 : So you're referring to 20 this is the question I had before. Are you 21 referring to God himself, not calling the 22 Warden or the Captain or somebody God? 23 : Oh no, just God himself. 24 : All right. So that's the 25 one sign you can remember that was up -- EFTA00060402 31 1 : Yes. 2 : -- requiring rounds but 3 nothing to do with a cellmate. 4 : Nothing to do with a 5 cellmate. 6 : All right. What is the 7 hot list? 8 : The hot list is inmates 9 that have tried to commit suicide in the past 10 and that's posted in Special Housing Unit. 11 : Okay. And where in the 12 Special Housing Unit would have been the hot 13 list located on August 9th? 14 : Right next to the second 15 phone, next to the cage where we keep MIR 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:20:31), camera, radio 17 holders. 18 : Would it have been like 19 on the desk or behind the desk or -. 20 : Well, we have a hot list, 21 it's next to the phone, that's where it's at. 22 It's a yellow - or it was a yellow binder. 23 : Is there only one phone 24 in the SHU? 25 : There's three. EFTA00060403 32 1 : Three? 2 : Three. 3 : So one of the phones it 4 was next to? 5 : Correct. 6 : Was it hanging on the 7 wall? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. Is it like some 10 kind of a bulletin board type of area or like - 11 . 12 : It's a - we have our cage 13 with some of the equipment -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and the phone right next 16 to it, it's right in between. That's where it 17 was before. 18 : And do you know if 19 Epstein was listed on the hot list on or around 20 August 9th? 21 : If I'm not mistaken, I 22 think he was. 23 : Okay. 24 : I think he was. 25 : Would have he been listed EFTA00060404 33 1 on the hot list when he came back on July 30? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. And how do people 4 get placed on - if he was on July 30th, when 5 would an inmate be removed from that hot list? 6 : Well, that's Psychology 7 once their finished with their whatever they 8 do, reports or evaluations on the inmate. 9 : So how does that work? 10 Is it they - an inmate is removed from the hot 11 list if they're no longer a threat of 12 committing suicide? 13 : I think that's what it is. 14 : Okay. 15 : I never really looked into 16 that one. 17 : And does Epstein - I 18 mean, not does Epstein, does Psychology, are 19 they the ones that provide you the hot list? 20 21 22 to? 23 : Yes. : Who do they provide it : They usually come upstairs 24 and change it on their own. 25 : So they actually post it EFTA00060405 34 1 on the -- 2 : Yes. 3 : -- board themselves? 4 : Yes. 5 : Does everybody that works 6 in the SHU know what the hot list is? 7 : Yes. 8 : Do you believe -. 9 : It's part of our training. 10 : As a -. 11 : Not just the SHU training, 12 but that's like when you start working here, 13 everybody should know that that's - when 14 Psychology Department comes to see you, they 15 make you - or they tell you to be aware of the 16 hot list. 17 : Okay. That's a good 18 point. On your annual training that you take 19 at the MCC, would that hot list information be 20 provided during that training? 21 : Yes, it should. 22 : What about the training 23 that we talked about previously when we talked 24 25 : The SHU training? EFTA00060406 35 1 : Yes. 2 : That definitely is. 3 : And in the annual? 4 : Yes. 5 : So, in the annual, the 6 training that you said, you know, we talked 7 about of, they're not in the SHU training, they 8 might not have gotten it, that same information 9 would have been passed along during the annual 10 training? 11 : Yes. 12 : And that's with 13 Psychology letting people know that people -. 14 : Psychology does their part 15 on the training in their class time and they 16 should have or they should because I think 17 that's what they always do. Psychology - any 18 training, everybody takes it and you go over 19 everything pretty much from when you first 20 start -- 21 : Okay. 22 : -- on what to do as an 23 officer. 24 : So, point being, if 25 people come off of suicide watch and are placed EFTA00060407 36 1 in somewhere like the SHU, during annual 2 training, they tell everybody that takes that 3 training that they need to. 4 : Make sure you go over the 5 hot list and deal with who is on it 6 : And who was your 7 -- and if you feel somebody 8 should be on it, just pass it down to 9 Psychology. 10 : To make sure those people 11 have cellmates? 12 : Correct. 13 : Okay. And is that right, 14 if you're on the hot list, unless you have some 15 kind of requirement next to you that you can't 16 be housed with a bunkie, you're supposed to 17 housed with a cell mate? 18 : Yes, yes. 19 : Okay. And is that kind 20 of the purpose of it, to make sure that you're 21 knowing that they're not only suicidal but 22 they're also required to have a cellmate? 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. 25 : In comparison to the OIC EFTA00060408 37 1 desk, where would that hot list be? Like if 2 you're looking at the desk right now, where -. 3 : So, if I'm sitting on the 4 desk, it should be about not even 10 feet away 5 from me on the next phone. 6 : Okay. 7 : And do the other COs that 8 worked in the SHU know that everyone on the hot 9 list was required to have a cellmate? 10 : They should. 11 : They should, okay. 12 : There's a lot of "shoulds" 13 in this building. 14 : Who replaced you in the 15 SHU on August 9, 2019? Do you remember? And 16 here's the -. 17 : It should have been Officer 18 and Officer 19 : Okay. Do you need to 20 refer to this at all or you just know that from 21 memory? 22 : I think I'm right. 23 : And I think you're right 24 as well, but I just want to make sure that -. 25 : Memory is so far so good, EFTA00060409 38 1 yes. 2 : So you're looking at the 3 daily assigned roster. 4 : Yeah, it's and 5 6 : Anyone else? 7 : No, I only saw those two. 8 : Was there also? 9 Did he replace you? 10 : So I left that 2:00. 11 : Okay. 12 : I knew was coming 13 because that's usually my relief and was 14 a 2:00 to 10:00 officer. 15 : Okay. And where did 16 fit in on this? Do you know? 17 : He was probably doing 18 just coming in. 19 : Okay. So we have a memo. 20 Is this - do you - this memo, it says it's from 21 you and it's dated August 12, 2019. Is this - 22 do you recognize that memo? 23 : No, that's me. 24 : Okay. And did you create 25 that memo? EFTA00060410 39 1 : Yes, I did. 2 : All right. Great. So 3 what it says is, it says it's to the Warden. 4 How do you pronounce the Warden's last -. 5 6 It says, "On 7 Friday, August 9, 2019 at approximately 1:50 8 p.m., I, SOS passed on to oncoming 9 staff member Officer and present shift 10 staff SOS and Officer that inmate 11 Reyes, number 85993-054, was going WAB and 12 possibly may not return. Also that inmate 13 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 14 from his attorney visit." What does WAB mean? 15 : With all belongings. 16 : Okay. And is that 17 : That's when you leave the 18 institution. 19 : Okay. Great. And do you 20 recall actually passing that information on to 21 22 : I - , I 23 probably did speak to them, but in -. 24 : Okay. So I guess I 25 should ask, the way that I interpreted this was EFTA00060411 40 1 that you told but those other people were 2 present in the SHU. Did you have a 3 conversation then, you believe, with both 4 and 5 6 7 8 : I had a conversation with because he relieved me at 2 o'clock. : Okay. : And I told him, "Make sure 9 you pass it down to - but I don't - I know I 10 spoke to because I was still town driver 11 and I saw him outside, but I don't 12 remember seeing him. 13 : Okay. What do you 14 remember - what specifically do you recall 15 saying to 16 : Like, " is going, he's 17 leaving, so make sure Epstein gets a bunkie." 18 : And what do you remember 19 specifically telling to 20 : Same thing. "Hey, you 21 know, I think is going to be gone, 22 Epstein needs a bunkie." "All right." 23 : Okay. And again, who is 24 inmate 25 . That was Epstein's bunkie. EFTA00060412 41 1 2 sounds like? 3 : Up until August 9th it : Correct. 4 : Okay. And do you know 5 how he was selected to be Epstein's cell mate? 6 : Through, again, Psychology 7 recommends, "Oh, they're about the same age. 8 They both are pretty much have -" - not similar 9 charges, but, "This guy is an older man. This 10 guy has a cane. There's not going to be any 11 problems, we should put them in together." 12 : Are you aware of anything 13 like the Captain and the Warden and even the 14 Regional Director going through and vetting 15 Epstein's cell mates or are you unaware of 16 that? 17 : No. 18 : All right. So, you're 19 understanding was that Psychology made that 20 determination? 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. When did you 23 become aware that inmate Efrain Reyes was 24 likely to be removed from the MCC on August 9, 25 2019? EFTA00060413 42 1 : When I walked both of them 2 to the door. 3 : And what time would that 4 have been? 5 : I would say - because R&D 6 usually starts calling people down around 9 7 o'clock, 9:00, 9:30, and that's pretty much 8 around the same time that Epstein is walking to 9 go to his legal visit. 10 : Okay. 11 : I won't - well, it's not me 12 alone with the two of them, but we walked 13 towards the door and I told him he needed - he 14 was going to get a bunkie. 15 : So were Reyes and Epstein 16 both together? 17 : Correct. 18 : And you're the one who 19 was - one of you that was escorting them? 20 : Yes. 21 : And at that point, at 22 9:00 a.m. on August 9th, you did know that 23 Reyes wasn't coming back or likely -. 24 : I knew he was going 25 downstairs. So, WAB means with all belongings. EFTA00060414 43 1 You go to R&D, you're supposed to leave within 2 probably an hour and not come back, but there 3 has been times that they go downstairs with all 4 their stuff and they come right back upstairs. 5 Whether it's to SHU or to a unit. 6 7 8 : Okay. : So -. : So, are you confident 9 that Reyes was actually WAB at 9:00 a.m.? 10 : No, I know I was walking 11 him downstairs to leave the building at that 12 time. 13 : Was he with all 14 belongings at that time? 15 : Yes. 16 : So he -- 17 : Yes. 18 : -- already - he did have 19 his belongings? 20 : He did have his belongings. 21 He was ready to go. But again, it's not always 22 guaranteed that once we're taking downstairs, 23 even though they call us and tell us, "Oh, this 24 guy is going WAB," they just leave. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060415 44 1 : There's been a lot of times 2 that we take them downstairs, two, three hours 3 later, something happened, "You know what? Go 4 right back upstairs, you leave tomorrow or the 5 next day." 6 : Okay. And does R&D stand 7 for Receiving and Discharging? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. What floor is that 10 on? 11 : That's on the 3rd floor. 12 : Okay. Do you get a - let 13 me go through this. So, I got a Lieutenant log 14 and a daily log. So let me find those. So 15 here's the - this top report, the daily 16 activity report is from August 10, 2019 and 17 behind it, it has the Lieutenant's log from 18 Friday, August 9, 2019. So that's what I'm 19 going to refer you to and I'm going to refer 20 you specifically to where it says, "8:00 a.m.," 21 on down. It says, "According to the 22 Lieutenant's log and the daily log," so this is 23 the daily log. I think he's on the third page. 24 It says, "Reyes was pre-removed from the SHU at 25 8:38 a.m." What does that mean? EFTA00060416 45 1 : That's just when they put 2 him on the system that he gets downstairs. 3 : Does it have anything to 4 do with WAB or that he's likely not going to 5 come back? 6 : Well, that pretty much 7 means he left. 8 : That just means he left? 9 : Yes, that means he's left. 10 : But does that mean, like, 11 he's going to court and he's likely not going 12 to come back or it just means he left? Does it 13 have anything to do with the fact that not only 14 did he leave the building, but he's likely not 15 going to return? 16 : Well, that he left the 17 building and most likely he's not going to 18 return. 19 : Okay. And is there a 20 difference? Like what would it say if he just 21 left for a regular court date and he was going 22 to return, (Indiscernible *00:30:47)? 23 : Well, it would say, 24 "Court." 25 : Just, "Court?" EFTA00060417 46 1 : If he was going to court, 2 it would say, "Court." 3 : It wouldn't say, "Pre- 4 remove?" 5 : No, it would just say, 6 "Court." 7 : So is, "Pre-remove," and, 8 "WAB," somewhat the same thing? 9 : Correct. 10 : Okay. So does that mean 11 that - so I've been told that there's some kind 12 of a court list that comes out either on like 13 late August 8, 2019 or early August 9, 2019 14 would have said something with WAB next to his 15 name. 16 : Yes. 17 : What is that called? 18 : That's the court list that 19 we get. So when I walk in or any officer walks 20 into the unit, they would have a court list. 21 Court list would have - I'll say, "Court," or, 22 "WAB." 23 : All right. And I have 24 not seen that document. Do you recall if that 25 actually said, "WAB?" EFTA00060418 47 1 2 remember. 3 : Not that, I cannot : If it - looking at the 4 Lieutenant's log as well as this daily log, the 5 fact that said, "Pre-remove," does that mean it 6 likely said, "WAB?" 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. 9 : Yes. 10 : Because you said if it 11 said just, "Court," or, "WAB," if it said, 12 "Court," it would say, "Court," next to his 13 name -- 14 : Right. 15 • -- on this. 16 : Right. So, we get 17 something like this, just like this one. 18 : So on the daily log, 19 right? 20 : On the daily log, but it 21 would be like a court roster. Name, where 22 they're housed in and next to it, it would say, 23 "Court, WAB, transfer," or something like that. 24 : Okay. So, but based upon 25 the fact that this says, "Pre-remove," on it. EFTA00060419 48 1 Do you believe that the court list said, "WAB?" 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yes. That's the only 5 reason we would take them down. 6 : Right. 7 : Unless he got - he made 8 bail and all of a sudden, "Hey, we got an early 9 release." 10 : Okay. So when you say 11 it's the only reason you would take them down, 12 wouldn't you take them down also if he was just 13 going to court? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. But, I guess what 16 I'm saying is, the difference between court and 17 WAB. It's the same -. 18 : It's - well, if I have a 19 list and I have a court inmate and a WAB 20 inmate, they would both go to R&D and if it's 21 the same time, they would go down at the same 22 time. Then after that is where it would still 23 say the same thing. Well, one would still say, 24 "WAB," and the other one still would, I mean, 25 would say, "Court." Only difference is one EFTA00060420 49 1 would most likely not come back. 2 : Okay. What about the 3 difference between what they're bringing with 4 them? Would they both be bringing all their 5 belongings? 6 : No, they would not. 7 : So a person with court 8 wouldn't have something like Reyes did. 9 : Correct. 10 : So Reyes likely had his 11 bag. 12 : His bag with all his items 13 and the person going out to court would most 14 likely just have a folder or legal 15 documentations that he's taking with him. 16 : All right. So that's 17 another reason why you believe that that 18 document would have said, "WAB?" 19 : Correct. 20 : Okay. Thank you. I'm 21 going to just so we can start getting these 22 things away from you. Do you mind just signing 23 and dating? This is the daily log. And 24 exactly, do you know what the daily log is? 25 This one that you're initialing and dating EFTA00060421 50 1 right now -- 2 : Well -- 3 : -- for August 9, 2019? 4 -- this we would print out 5 just so we could know how to update the 6 Lieutenant's log 7 : Okay. So -. 8 : -- now. 9 : So this daily log is used 10 to update the Lieutenant's log? 11 : Correct. 12 : All right. So would have 13 this this page in daily log, it's the page we 14 were just reviewing, it's the last page which 15 is - although it does say, "Page 1 of 1," or 16 over here, it's this page, I'm going to circle 17 this page, 3 of 3, and I'm going to star next 18 to Reyes's name. Would this have been filled 19 for - would this have been used to fill out 20 this daily log -- 21 : Yes. 22 : -- after the fact? So at 23 8:38, would the Lieutenant's log have been 24 filled out? I'm going to star next to this. 25 Or would it have been at this time where it EFTA00060422 51 1 says, you know, "9:30 -- 2 : 9:30? 3 : -- at night," would have 4 been filled out? 5 : No, it would have been 6 filled out according to the times that are on 7 the log. 8 : Okay. So, the 9 Lieutenant's log is actually typically filled 10 out after these things happen? 11 : Yes. 12 : Later in the day. 13 : Correct. 14 : Not as they transpire. 15 : Correct. 16 : Okay. Good to know. 17 : Well, it depends on who the 18 Lieutenant is. 19 : Right. Okay. 20 : Sometimes they'll do it 21 throughout the day so they're not stuck doing 22 all these changes or putting all the 23 information on the Lieutenant's log, they'll 24 just go by the time. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060423 52 1 : Like, "Oh, it's 8:30, five 2 guys left, I'm going to put it in the 3 Lieutenant's log." 4 : All right. 5 : "Five guys left." 6 : Is there any kind of a 7 requirement that Lieutenants need to fill out 8 the Lieutenant's log as things transpire or 9 does that not matter? 10 : Doesn't matter, so long as 11 by the closing of the day, everything is up to 12 date -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- and the numbers are 15 accurate. 16 : So, prior to leaving your 17 shift it's supposed to be updated? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. All right. So if 20 you can just -. 21 : I have the Lieutenant, yes. 22 : So if you don't mind 23 initialing and dating both of those. 24 : While you're doing that, I 25 just had a question. You said that Reyes had EFTA00060424 53 1 his belongings. What exactly did he have in 2 his hands? 3 : Think it was a bag with a 4 couple of commissary items, nothing -. 5 : Like a plastic bag or -. 6 : A plastic bag. We don't 7 give them anything else to take. 8 : And you also mentioned, "We," 9 who is we when you were bringing him down? 10 : Oh, myself and the Internal 11 Officer, which - usually if it's two inmates, 12 it has to be at least two or three staff 13 members bringing them down. 14 : You wouldn't happen to, by 15 off that list, know who that is? 16 : Internal was , think 17 it was overtime, it was probably him. Sign and 18 19 : Yeah, do you mind just, 20 that's your memo, do you mind just initialing 21 and dating? Thank you, sir. All right, so, 22 and just to sum all that up by what you just 23 saw and by your understanding, you thought 24 was unlikely to return to the MCC. 25 : No. EFTA00060425 54 1 : Okay. And did you 2 receive any kind of call or any other 3 notification on August 19, 2019 saying that 4 was not returning to the MCC? 5 : I don't remember that one. 6 : Okay. So, when would or 7 would a notification have been made informing 8 the SHU or the MCC in general, that was 9 in fact not coming back? How does that process 10 work? 11 : So, if he's going WAB, we 12 already assume that he's not going to be coming 13 back and the way we confirm it is right before 14 the count, "Hey, is he coming back R&D?" "No, 15 he already left, he's gone." 16 : And what count is that? 17 : The 4:00 p.m. count. 18 : All right. So at 4:00 19 p.m., someone from the SHU should have 20 contacted, you said R&D? 21 : Yes. 22 : And said, "Is he coming 23 back?" 24 : Correct. 25 : All right. Is that EFTA00060426 55 1 standard operating procedure? 2 : No, it's just pretty much 3 us confirming that he's not coming back or 4 sometimes they give us a call, "Hey, this guy 5 is not coming back." 6 : Okay. 7 : But we already assume that 8 he's not coming back because he's going WAS. 9 : Okay. So do you know if 10 any notification was ever made to the SHU 11 saying that he was not in fact coming back? 12 : I don't remember. 13 : No? And there's no 14 standard operating procedure on that. 15 : No. 16 : Do you believe that there 17 should be? 18 : I mean, we should go off 19 the roster, but R&D should always, "Hey, this 20 guy is not coming back," think a courtesy call 21 22 : Okay. 23 : -- "This guy is not coming 24 back." 25 : And how is R&D made aware EFTA00060427 56 1 that an inmate is not coming back? 2 : Once they leave here. So 3 they all go downstairs with all their 4 belongings. 5 : No, no, no. So would it 6 be when the other court people, inmates return 7 or would it be prior to that? So, yes, you 8 said, he's likely not coming back at 9 approximately 8:38 when you bring him down. He 10 leaves, it's kind of assumed that he's not 11 coming back. We're trying to figure out, when 12 is it known he's definitely not coming back. 13 Is that when the other inmates that went to 14 court are returned to the MCC or they return at 15 different times or how does that work? 16 : Well, the inmates, they 17 don't all return together. They return 18 different times. 19 : Okay. 20 : But, that's actually a good 21 question. I want to find that out too. I 22 don't know if they're going to - they just 23 locked it. 24 : I think you're locking us 25 in. EFTA00060428 57 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, sorry. 2 : Thank you. Okay, so 3 you're not exactly sure? 4 : I'm not sure how they're 5 like notified or how do they know this guy is 6 not coming back or, excuse me, this guy is not 7 coming back, this guy got time served or, I'm 8 not sure how they know that. 9 : Okay. Do you know 10 anything about possibly the Marshals providing 11 some kind of a court list or anything like that 12 or is this a question for R&D? 13 : It's a question for R&D. 14 : Okay. But as far as you 15 know, either R&D would call the SHU, making the 16 notification, and if they didn't do that by the 17 4:00 p.m. count -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- the SHU should be 20 contacting R&D? 21 : Yes, to make sure he's not 22 coming back or to make sure that he might be 23 downstairs and we've got to pick him up. 24 : And is -. 25 : But if he returns, R&D EFTA00060429 58 1 calls us. Anybody from SHU leaves, once they 2 return from wherever they went, "You've got a 3 pick up on three." 4 : Okay. Now as far as that 5 goes, so just walk me through like, it just 6 seems so like a non-definite, like you know 7 what I mean? You assume that he's gone. Would 8 the people that are working in the SHU at 4:00 9 even know to call R&D to find out where 10 is? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : They would? And how 13 would they know that? 14 15 16 : To verify the count. : Okay. : We count every day, so. 17 : So would remain on 18 the count at that point? 19 : If he's not returning? 20 : So in this case, with the 21 pre-remove, does that mean that he was removed 22 from the count? 23 : Correct. 24 : So, that's - so he's 25 already removed from the SHU count. How would EFTA00060430 59 1 the people that are working in the SHU know to 2 check on him if he's been removed from the 3 count? 4 : The court list stays on top 5 of the desk, usually we have a morning court -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- and afternoon court. 8 : So anybody that's on the 9 court list, you need to - that's how people 10 know every day, they call and say, "What 11 happened to these people at court?" 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. And is that 14 like at a certain time that a person calls? 15 : Usually 3:00, 3 o'clock, no 16 later than 3:30 because of the count. 17 : And on August 9th, by 18 knowing the people you said that were in there 19 and looking at this daily assignment roster, 20 are you able to determine if there's one person 21 that should have called or was their 22 responsibility or is it -. 23 : Well, and would 24 have called. 25 : So one of those two? EFTA00060431 60 1 : Yeah, one of those would 2 have called. 3 : But not 4 was pretty new and 5 so was 6 : Okay. 7 : Pretty new officers, so. 8 : But every day that's 9 done? 10 : If they don't come back, 11 then we assume they're not coming back and if 12 they do come back, R&D usually tells us, "Come 13 pick up on three." 14 : Okay. So the way that 15 that was answered, it sounds like you don't 16 always call based on the court list, you just 17 assume they did - if they didn't show up and R 18 & D didn't call you, you -. 19 : Then, we're like, "Oh, he's 20 not coming back." 21 : All right. So then those 22 two may not have called then, they just would 23 have assumed he was gone? 24 : I mean, Officer got 25 good enough time in that I think he would have EFTA00060432 61 1 called. 2 • 3 -- : And would you always call 4 : I think he would have 5 called, but 6 : -- on those dates that 7 you worked in the SHU at that 4:00, you know, 8 around 4:00 p.m. time, would you have always 9 called? 10 : Myself? Yes. I usually 11 call like around 3 o'clock -- 12 : And is that -. 13 : -- just in case I really 14 dirty, I'll go home early, so. 15 : Now is that like also 16 like a standard operating procedure or is that 17 just based upon whatever the people that are 18 working there want to do? 19 : That's whatever people 20 working there. 21 : Okay. So is there any 22 training on that that you should call at a 23 certain time? 24 : No. 25 : No? EFTA00060433 62 1 : No. 2 : So that's just like 3 basically good, I guess, logistics and good -- 4 : Yes. 5 : -- record keeping. Were 6 you ever instructed on what action should be 7 taken if Reyes, who was assigned to Epstein as 8 a cellmate, was removed from the institution? 9 : If anybody, not only 10 Epstein, loses a bunkie, and he was already on 11 suicide watch, then that's pretty much our 12 training. If he returned from suicide watch, 13 he needs a bunkie. If he has a bunkie and the 14 bunkie leaves, we get him another one. 15 : Okay. Okay, so in this 16 case then, it was Reyes was likely to have been 17 removed from the institution. What actions 18 should have been taken to replace Reyes and 19 when should have they been taken? 20 : Well, as soon as it was 21 verified or confirmed that he left the 22 building, and Epstein was coming up from his 23 attorney visit, which was probably around 8:00 24 because that's the last, like the last call on 25 attorney conference, last legal visit has to be EFTA00060434 63 1 out of the legal department by 8 o'clock. So, 2 as soon as we find out that - if Reyes wasn't 3 there for the 4 o'clock count, it should have 4 been, "Okay, let's find Epstein another bunkie 5 so by the time he comes upstairs, he has one 6 already." 7 : Okay. So based upon your 8 conversations with at least and you 9 believe as well as , should have they at 10 the 4:00 p.m. 11 notifications 12 13 Definitely. 14 count started making some or started replacing Reyes? : Oh, definitely. : So was it their two - 15 their - do you believe it was their, then, 16 responsibility to replace Reyes? 17 : I think it was everybody's 18 responsibility. They should have notified 19 somebody. 20 : Okay. Did you have any 21 communica- let me just go in order so I don't 22 get - so, let me just 23 So at 4:00 p.m., they 24 some notifications or make sure I understand. should have been making at least requesting 25 information on Reyes's location, correct? EFTA00060435 64 1 : Correct. 2 : By 8:00 p.m., when 3 Epstein returned from attorney conference, 4 you're saying at least by that time, that's 5 when a new cell mate should have been assigned 6 or -. 7 : Correct. 8 : Okay. And who was 9 responsible for assigning Epstein with a new 10 cell mate? 11 : So, anyone in SHU could do 12 it. Just got to make sure he doesn't have any 13 separations from another inmate. But, Epstein, 14 when he came to the building was a big deal to 15 everybody, so everybody wants to be involved. 16 So I think they should just notify whoever it 17 was, the Lieutenant, and let the Lieutenant ask 18 around or speak to Psychology who you recommend 19 to be his bunkie. 20 : Okay. And so, being that 21 Epstein was a big deal and people wanted to be 22 involved, when should that notification had 23 been made? 24 : As soon as they found out 25 he wasn't coming back. EFTA00060436 65 1 : So once it was verified 2 and so-. 3 : That he's not coming back, 4 yes. 5 : So at approximately 4:00 6 p.m.? 7 : 4:00 p.m. 8 : Okay. After left 9 for court, should you have begun a process for 10 an inmate or you or whoever else was working in 11 the SHU, should you began that process for a 12 new selected inmate for Epstein? 13 : Well, again, I assumed he 14 was not coming back, I wasn't sure he wasn't 15 coming back. 16 : Okay. So -. 17 : And by the time I left, he 18 still had another - he still had about an hour 19 and a half to come back if he was coming back. 20 : Okay. So, by the time 21 you left, there was still a possibility that 22 : That he could come back. 23 : Okay. 24 : Yes. 25 : Did you make any EFTA00060437 66 1 notifications to anyone aside from and 2 that Reyes was Epstein's cellmate and he 3 was likely not coming back? 4 : I don't remember that. 5 : Do you remember if you, 6 you know, communicated with any of the 7 Lieutenants? 8 : I don't even remember who - 9 which Lieutenant was on. 10 : You got the daily roster. 11 : But -. 12 : Think it was and 13 14 : I actually - I say I know I 15 remember . So I think I - see, 16 I don't want to say I did tell somebody, but I 17 was always kind of anal working the SHU, so I 18 probably said, "Look, he might not be coming 19 back," and when Reyes left, he leave through 20 the 3rd floor which everybody in the 21 Lieutenant's office sees him and R&D sees him 22 and at the same time, I told Epstein, "You're 23 getting a bunkie," he's like, "No, I'm good." 24 And Reyes was like, "No, he's going to make 25 sure you get a bunkie." Because -. EFTA00060438 67 1 : Can you repeat that last 2 thing? What's this? 3 : So, when I walked them 4 towards the door, I said, "Oh, Reyes, you might 5 be leaving today." " ." "And you're 6 going to get a bunkie." Epstein is like, "No, 7 I'm good." Said, "No, you're going to get a 8 bunkie," and Reyes is like, "Yeah," you know, 9 "He does this by the book, you're going to get 10 a bunkie later if I leave or if I don't come 11 back." 12 : I got you. So the way 13 you answered the question before, it sounded 14 like you may have told or you 15 just don't specifically recall? 16 : I do not recall. 17 : Like -. 18 : Again, we brought them 19 down, so. 20 : Okay. No, no, no, I'm 21 talking about like, - or let me - I'll just go 22 in order. Do you remember at 9:00 a.m. who 23 would have been the Activities and Operations 24 Lieutenant? 25 : Well, Operations comes in EFTA00060439 68 1 at 6 o'clock in the morning. 2 : Okay. And who on this 3 date would have been that person? 4 : Lieutenant and 5 came in at 4 o'clock. 6 7 though, right? 8 9 10 : So was Activities : Correct. At 6:00 and then was at 8:00. : Okay. So at 6:00 a.m., 11 would have been in? 12 13 14 : Yes, 6:00 to 2:00 and , 8:00 to 4:00. : Okay. So at that 9 15 o'clock time when you're bringing them down, 16 would you -- 17 : They both should have been 18 there. 19 : -- would have you been in 20 any interactions with Lieutenants at that 21 point? 22 : Yes, because they usually 23 come upstairs to feed. 24 : Okay. And do you 25 remember specifically if you can place yourself EFTA00060440 69 1 back in that day, I know it's a long time ago, 2 but being that that was the day before Epstein 3 died, can you remember at all thinking about 4 any conversations you had with them? 5 : I remember seeing both of 6 them. 7 : Both - you remember -- 8 : Both - both -- 9 : -- seeing both 10 and 11 Lieutenant that day, but (Indiscernible 12 *00:49:03) when - I'm sure, but I'm not a 13 hundred percent positive that I did tell him -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- "Hey," specifically, 16 "Reyes might be leaving, you got to get Epstein 17 a bunkie." 18 : So you believe it's more 19 likely than not that you mentioned it to the 20 Lieutenants. 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. 23 : There you go. 24 : But you just can't 25 specifically recall. EFTA00060441 70 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. And do you believe 3 it was more likely or not that you told one of 4 those Lieutenants over another? 5 : I talked to both of them 6 and I think I probably just told Lieutenant 7 and then he passed it down or vice versa. 8 : Okay. And did you have 9 more of a friendly relationship with one or the 10 other? 11 12 13 : No, just -- : No? : -- even both of them. 14 : And do you remember 15 having any conversations with R&D on August 16 9th? 17 : No. 18 : No? So when you would 19 drop the inmates off, was there any kind of 20 conversations or 21 : Yeah, "What's up? You guys 22 good?" "Yeah, okay." 23 : Okay. 24 : Yeah. Go right back 25 upstairs. EFTA00060442 71 1 : And do you know when it 2 was known that wasn't returning to the 3 MCC? 4 : No. 5 : Even after the fact? 6 Like after August 9th, you never learned that? 7 : No, I never -. 8 : There wasn't any kind of 9 like little internal investigation trying to 10 figure out what that was all about? 11 : No. I -. 12 : But under normal 13 circumstances, you're saying, either R&D would 14 call and let that be known or at the 4:00 p.m. 15 count, or the SHU staff should have called down 16 to find out -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- based upon the court 19 list -- 20 : Usually -- 21 : -- that was in front of 22 them? 23 : -- we do just to make sure 24 this guy is not coming back or R&D would tell 25 us. EFTA00060443 72 1 : Okay. And you're saying 2 that that's normal but certainly by 8:00 p.m. 3 when Epstein came back from attorney client, 4 his attorney visit, they should have known? 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. And who - can you, 7 by referring to this roster, can you tell me 8 who was working at 8:00 p.m.? 9 : 8:00 p.m., the people that 10 were working were and 11 : Was Noel also? 12 : And - well, the evening 13 watch, Noel, and 14 : So at 8:00 p.m., were all 15 those people on? 16 : No. , because he 17 leaves at 10:00, Noel, she does 4:00 to 12:00, 18 4:00 to 12:00. 19 : Okay. And do you believe 20 all of those people would have known - those 21 three people that you just listed, would have 22 they known that Epstein was required to have a 23 cellmate? 24 : Well, the one that most 25 likely should have known was because he's EFTA00060444 73 1 worked SHU before. Noel worked SHU once in a 2 while and he wasn't even in the SHU 3 department. 4 : Okay. So certainly 5 would have known and Noel should have? 6 : Yes. 7 8 way? 9 : Either way. 10 : Okay. And what action 11 should have they taken? Once they bring 12 Epstein back to the cell, they notice they're 13 putting Epstein - would they know when they 14 brought Epstein back to his cell that Epstein 15 was alone in that cell? 16 17 18 that? 19 • • : Yes. could go either : And how would they know : Well, first we have name 20 tags on the door. Usually when the inmate 21 leaves, we remove the name tag. And of course 22 -- 23 : Can you silence that? 24 : -- the sheets should not 25 have been on the bed. EFTA00060445 74 1 2 3 4 have been removed? : : So Reyes's sheets should Correct. : Do you know if they were? 5 : I don't remember. 6 : And what time should 7 those sheets be removed? 8 : Well, he's not coming back, 9 let's get them. 10 : So sometime between 4:00 11 p.m. and -. 12 : And 8 o'clock. 13 : Okay. And then, is that 14 - is it - are they ever removed when someone is 15 WAS? 16 : Yes. When, so, again, WAB, 17 with all belongings, everything should come out 18 with you when you're WAB. 19 : So do those linens then 20 and clothing? 21 : Yes. 22 : Do you know if they did 23 for Reyes that day? 24 : No, I don't remember that. 25 : Okay. And is that like a EFTA00060446 75 1 policy thing? 2 3 linen. 4 : You got to return your : Okay. 5 : I don't think it's in 6 policy that I know of. 7 : All right. So, they 8 should have been removed when Reyes left, but 9 you don't know if they were? 10 : Correct. 11 : And then they certainly 12 should have been removed once it was verified 13 that Reyes wasn't coming back? 14 : Yes. 15 : And that verification 16 would have been made at either 4:00 p.m. or 17 certainly by 8:00 p.m. 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. Did you conduct 20 any counts or rounds in the SHU during your 21 shift on August 9th? 22 : No. 23 : Rounds? 24 : Well, rounds, yes. Not 25 counts. EFTA00060447 76 1 2 counts or rounds. 3 : Okay. So, sorry, I said : Oh. 4 : So you did conduct rounds 5 though? 6 : Yes. And Friday is a 7 shower day so we're - meaning, we got to shower 8 everybody in SHU, so at one point or another, 9 everybody that worked in SHU before 4 o'clock 10 in the afternoon, went in and out the tiers at 11 least a good 40 times. 12 : Okay. What time are 13 inmates showered? 14 : We start at 6:00. 15 : Okay. Was Epstein 16 showered on that date then? 17 : Yes he was because he goes 18 to his attorney visit. 19 : And he gets showered 20 prior to going? 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. All right, these 23 are the - you said you weren't involved in any 24 counts, so we'll give you the count sheet. 25 These are the round sheets from August 9, 2019. EFTA00060448 77 1 I can't make out this stuff. Does any of that 2 - your signatures or initials? 3 : The RCG right in the 4 middle. 5 : You're RCG? Okay. 6 : Correct. Middle. 7 : All right. And then 8 all right, so you were involved in those rounds 9 that are listed on there. Why do COs conduct 10 counts and rounds? 11 : To make sure the inmates 12 are - why they conduct rounds? 13 : Sure, we'll do each. Why 14 do COs conduct rounds? 15 : To make sure everybody is 16 breathing -- 17 : And why -. 18 : -- and make sure everybody 19 is still there. 20 : And why do they conduct 21 counts? 22 : To count and make sure all 23 the bodies are there. 24 : Okay. Do all the COs who 25 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct EFTA00060449 78 1 and report counts and rounds? 2 : Yes. If they got the ART 3 training, which is the initial training when 4 you start or the new training, we go over the 5 count time and we go over rounds. And when we 6 do the SHU training, we also go over the 7 rounds. 8 : So in that annual 9 refresher training, do they go over SHU counts 10 and rounds as well or just general 11 : Well -- 12 : -- institution? 13 : -- general institution 14 counts. 15 : Okay. 16 : Now the rounds in the units 17 are different than the SHU rounds, but it is 18 part of the annual training because there's a 19 section that says, "SHU." 20 : Okay. So during that 21 section that's title, "SHU," for the annual 22 refresher training, they actually talk about 23 conducting counts and rounds? 24 : Correct. 25 : Okay. And I'm assuming EFTA00060450 79 1 everybody that worked that day would have at 2 least taken the annual refresher training. 3 : Yes. 4 : Do all COs who work in 5 the SHU know how to properly document counts 6 and rounds? 7 : Yes. 8 : And how do they know how 9 to document? 10 : Well, through the training. 11 : Do they - so during that 12 annual refresher training and entry training 13 they teach you how to document as well? 14 : Well, we just log in. 15 Whenever you do a round, you got to log it in, 16 so that's kind of the way they tell us. 17 : And when you say, "Log it 18 in," how do you log it in? 19 : Well, you could log in your 20 rounds on TRUSCOPE or you could in the SHU, 21 which the rounds sheets we still have, that's 22 the actual paper you write it in. 23 : Do they - have they done 24 both? Do you not only have this paper that I 25 just showed you there with the rounds, do they EFTA00060451 80 1 also have - do you also have to go into 2 TRUSCOPE and log them in manually as well? 3 : Yes. But not the every 30 4 minute rounds. Like, in the unit, you document 5 your rounds. In SHU, you have to do it on the 6 paper, you don't have to write on TRUSCOPE, "I 7 did a round 30 minutes, I did a round within 40 8 minutes, I did a round in 30 minutes." You 9 don't have to write it over and over and over 10 on TRUSCOPE. 11 : When do you have to do it 12 in TRUSCOPE? 13 : Just throughout your shift 14 that you conducted rounds. 15 : So it's not every 30 16 minutes but at some point you've got to go in? 17 : Yes. 18 : And do you have to 19 document, like within TRUSCOPE that you did it 20 every 30 minutes or just that it - how does 21 that -. 22 : That they were done. 23 : That they were done. 24 : Yes. 25 : So it's not like it's EFTA00060452 81 1 where every 30 minutes you have to see what 2 time it is -. 3 : Correct. 4 : Okay. Is it ever 5 acceptable for a CO to document a count or a 6 round prior to conducting the count or a round? 7 : No. 8 : What do you know about 9 COs assigned to the SHU doing this? 10 Documenting the rounds and the count slips 11 prior to ever conducting the rounds or the 12 count slips? 13 : The time that I'm there, it 14 was never done. 15 : It was never done? 16 : No. 17 : Do you know anything 18 about that? 19 : No. 20 : Even after the fact, have 21 you heard about that? 22 : Even after the fact. 23 : Who else is responsible 24 for conducting counts and rounds inside the MCC 25 SHU aside from the people that are actually EFTA00060453 82 1 working in the SHU? 2 : Well, the SHU Lieutenant, 3 the Operations Lieutenant, they both have to 4 conduct rounds on all ranges in SHU. 5 : So when Opera- so there 6 was no SHU Lieutenant on August 9, 2019, 7 correct? 8 : Correct. 9 was hurt, if (Indiscernible *00:58:37) think he 10 was hurt. 11 : I think he was on leave 12 and then got hurt that weekend, but yes. So he 13 wasn't there, so that would have placed the 14 responsibility on the Operations Lieutenant? 15 : Well, regardless, the 16 Operations Lieutenant has to do his or her 17 rounds. 18 : Oh, okay. So, even if 19 the SHU Lieutenant is there, the Operations 20 Lieutenant also has to conduct a round in the 21 SHU? 22 : Correct. 23 : And is it once per shift? 24 : Yes. 25 : And what does a round for EFTA00060454 83 1 the Operations Lieutenant look like? What does 2 it entail? Is it just them visiting the SHU or 3 do they actually have to walk the tiers? 4 : They have to walk the 5 tiers. 6 : Is that policy? 7 : There's a sign in book and 8 then there's these little papers on the end of 9 every range that they have to sign on the 10 bottom. 11 : So on your shift, it 12 appears that Lieutenant is actually the 13 one that conducted a round, is that correct? 14 : Yes. 15 : Now, by that 16 certification, mean that he actually walked the 17 tiers? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. So if Lieutenant 20 was the person to have walked the tiers, 21 would have that - would that refresh your 22 memory? Would that conversation, the fact that 23 Epstein's cell is now empty, would that have 24 come up? 25 : It depends on the time he EFTA00060455 84 1 walked around. 2 3 : Okay. : That just means he walked 4 in from 6:00 to 2 o'clock in the afternoon. It 5 doesn't tell - like, 6 that when he went up 7 8 9 spoke to him. 10 11 Lieutenant 12 should have been it's not even specific there I was there -- Okay. : -- or any other officer : Would you believe that , if he's doing the rounds, tipped off on the fact that 13 that cell was empty? 14 15 that he did. 16 17 18 19 he should 20 : Yeah, depending on the time : Okay. : The time that he did walk. : Was there any action that have taken at that point? : Well, if - I'm guessing if 21 he saw an empty cell, everybody is asking, you 22 know, he should have asked where he went. : Right. 24 : Well, went downstairs, who he asked. 23 25 depending EFTA00060456 85 1 : And by this, are you able 2 to tell when Lieutenant actually 3 conducted that round? 4 : No. 5 : You're not able to tell? 6 : No. 7 : Where is that Lieutenant 8 log? I know it's here - some - oh, no, no, no. 9 I have another one right here. 10 : (Indiscernible *01:00:45). 11 : No, no, no, it's - 12 there's Lieutenant round logs. So what is this 13 that I'm showing you? 14 : These are from TRUSCOPE. 15 : And is that how - can you 16 find where during your shift, a Lieutenant - is 17 that when Lieutenants do rounds, that's where 18 they log in and they say when they did a round? 19 : Correct. On TRUSCOPE. 20 : Okay. Can you find 21 during your shift who it says did their round 22 in the SHU. 23 : Lieutenant did a 24 round in 9-South at 11:27 and he did it on 10- 25 South at 11:28. EFTA00060457 86 1 : Okay. And 10-South is 2 the -. 3 : The upper level. 4 : Of the SHU? 5 : Yes. 6 : Correct? And it's like a 7 separate unit in the SHU? 8 : Yes. 9 : For the high-profile and 10 single cell inmates? 11 : Yes. 12 : And where Epstein was 13 housed, that would have been in 9-South? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. Great. So -. 16 : 11:27 a.m., that's when he 17 -- 18 : That's when he would have 19 visited. 20 : -- should have did the 21 round. 22 : Okay. 23 : Or more or less. 24 : But you don't recall 25 having a conversation with him at that time? EFTA00060458 87 1 : No. 2 : No? And you're sure in 3 August of 2019 that Lieutenants at that time 4 did actually conduct rounds of the entire unit 5 to include walking the tiers? 6 : Yes. 7 : Check? Okay. So if 8 Lieutenants tell us now when we're talking to 9 them, "No, no, no, no, that's the Lieutenant's 10 discretion. They can just pop in, check with 11 the staff and then leave." Is that -. 12 : No. You have to - by 13 policy, do a round throughout the whole 14 building and make sure you log it in. And in 15 SHU, we have the round sheets which that's part 16 of your SHU round. You can't just walk into 17 SHU, do a 360 and walk right back out. You 18 have to sign the round sheets. 19 : And what's your opinion 20 if Lieutenants are telling us, "No, no, no, no, 21 no, we don't actually have to walk the tiers, 22 we can just check with the COs and go to the 23 next unit." What's your opinion of that? 24 : I'd say that's crap. 25 : Do you believe those EFTA00060459 88 1 people know better and they know that they need 2 to actually conduct rounds? 3 : Every Lieutenant should 4 know that they have to do rounds in Special 5 Housing, walk around every tier and every 6 range. 7 : And how do they know 8 that? Is that something provided at training 9 or how do they know? 10 : Well, I became a Lieutenant 11 and that was pretty much, "This is what you got 12 to do. When you do rounds, that's part of your 13 SHU rounds," not just -- 14 : And -. 15 : -- go and sign the book and 16 leave. 17 : And at the time we're 18 talking about, August 9, 2019, you were not 19 actually a Lieutenant yet, but you do know that 20 that was still policy at that time? 21 : Correct. 22 : Do you know where that 23 policy is found? Is that a SHU policy or is it 24 a Psychology policy or is there -. 25 . I think that's a Lieutenant EFTA00060460 89 1 policy. 2 : And there's a separate 3 Lieutenant's book that shows all your policies? 4 : Well, we have the 5 Lieutenant's log and just like when staff does 6 their round, we have to insert it into 7 TRUSCOPE. So the Lieutenant, when they do 8 their rounds, they have to log into TRUSCOPE 9 and say they conducted rounds in Special 10 Housing. 11 : But do we know where that 12 policy is found? 13 : That I do not know. 14 : Okay. Do you know if 15 it's found in the SHU policy? 16 : I don't know that. 17 : You don't know? Okay, no 18 problem. So what are the OIC's 19 responsibilities when it comes to conducting 20 counts and rounds? 21 : Well, when it comes to 22 conducting rounds, you got to make sure 23 everybody does a round every 30 minutes, within 24 40 minutes, throughout the day and we got to 25 make sure the round sheets are filled out. We EFTA00060461 90 1 got to make sure the counts - make sure that 2 there's - it's an accurate count and we got to 3 make sure the count slip is filled out the 4 right way. 5 : And you said that on this 6 one specifically, you said you're all the 7 : The 2 o'clock. 8 : The 2 o'clock ones? 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : Okay. So that's all your 11 initials are. 12 : Correct. 13 : And were those, do you 14 remember, were those rounds conducted? 15 : Yes. 16 : Yes? 17 : I know for a fact those 18 rounds - like I said, it was shower day, so 19 usually shower days, we're in and out, in and 20 out, in and out, throughout the whole day and 21 we don't finish showers until about 2:00, 22 sometimes 3 o'clock in the afternoon. 23 : Okay. So you're 24 constantly interacting with each -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00060462 91 1 each. So as far as 2 the times go though, are they like specific 3 times or do you kind of like add those later on 4 in the day? How does that work? 5 : Well, we usually go in, 6 sign it, if I forget, I already know that I 7 went back another 20 minutes, 30 minutes -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- then I'll fill it out. 10 : Okay. 11 : You try to make it as 12 accurate as I could when I'm there, but we're 13 all human. Sometimes I - just because I didn't 14 write it down, doesn't mean I didn't go down 15 the range. 16 : Yeah. 17 : I just forgot to write it 18 down. 19 : Well, what is the purpose 20 of signing a 30 minute round sheet? 21 : To confirm that you did 22 your round. 23 : Okay. And aside from 24 when you were there and you were signing it in, 25 do you know if on August 9th specifically, if EFTA00060463 92 1 the people that signed this document also 2 conducted their rounds? 3 : No. I would assume they 4 did -- 5 : You do? 6 : -- just signing it. 7 : Do you know anything 8 about people writing down that they did it when 9 they actually in fact did not do it? 10 : The only thing I know is 11 part of the times it would be off. Like, all 12 right, like I said before, I walked around but 13 I didn't write it, "Oh, shit, what time did I 14 do the round? 7:15, maybe it was actually 15 7:05," but, you know, I'll guess the time. Not 16 that I wrote it down and I didn't walk around 17 at all. 18 : Now, you're off at 2:00, 19 correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : Should someone have 22 filled in the other -- 23 : Yes 24 : -- times? Who should 25 have -. EFTA00060464 93 1 2 3 that out? 4 : We should have. : Who should have filled 5 should have filled 6 that out? 7 : Or anybody else that was 8 there. 9 : Okay. And do you see 10 these initials over here where it says, 11 "Signature," from 4:00 p.m. until midnight, do 12 you know who that would have been? Would have 13 been -. 14 : If it's a JN, it should be 15 Noel. 16 : Okay. Or TN -- 17 : Hold on. 18 • • -- maybe. 19 : Right, (Indiscernible 20 *01:06:57). 21 : I don't know if it's T or 22 a J. 23 : J or a -. 24 : It's T. 25 . T? EFTA00060465 94 1 2 3 : T and so Tova Noel? : Yes. : But you believe is 4 the one that should have certified the 2:00 to 5 4:00? 6 : Yeah. 7 : Do you believe 8 should have also while he was on duty, been the 9 one that had a signature from 4:00 p.m. on? 10 : He could have. He could 11 have. It's not - you don't have to be the 12 person (Indiscernible *01:07:18). Anybody 13 could sign the rounds but I just did it because 14 I was in and out the range, so I always signed 15 them. But anybody could have signed the rounds 16 as long as they did them. 17 : So what would your 18 opinion be if I tell you that someone like a 19 Tova Noel says that they actually fill this in 20 at the very start of their shift prior to ever 21 conducting any rounds just to make sure that 22 it's filled out correctly. What would you say 23 to that? 24 : They fucked up because they 25 still not done it. Sorry. EFTA00060466 95 1 2 3 : No. : Excuse my language. : That's what we're looking 4 for is some kind of, you know, honest answer. 5 : Yeah. No. That's a big no 6 go. 7 : Do you know if anyone was 8 doing that? 9 : I never worked with her 10 like that. I know she worked in SHU a couple 11 of times, but - and she was pretty new, so. 12 : So she - let's say 13 hypothetically, she's saying that she's doing 14 it, not based upon what people are telling her, 15 but watching other people and that's how they 16 did it. Do you know of anybody else that ever 17 did it that way? 18 : No. Again, I - if it was 19 if they were working with me, it never 20 happened. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. You know, I got, like 23 I said, not to toot my own horn, but I am very 24 prideful of my job and I was Officer of the 25 Year, Rookie of the Year, also won numerous EFTA00060467 96 1 awards and I got promoted within five year. 2 : Okay. I got you. 3 : Obviously I was doing 4 something right. 5 : Sure. So being that, you 6 know, you've been around the block and you 7 sound like you're an ideal employee - how do I 8 ask this question? Would it surprise you that 9 she's saying that that's the way she thought it 10 was supposed to be done? 11 : Yes, definitely. 12 : And why? 13 : And we always say, "If you 14 see somebody else doing something wrong, 15 correct it, don't follow it." 16 : Okay. 17 : So, I think - yes. 18 : Do you remember ever 19 speaking with Tova Noel about how to fill out 20 round sheets? 21 : No. 22 : No? And even as the OIC 23 and she's newer, would that have been something 24 that you dealt with her with and try to like 25 train her on it? EFTA00060468 97 1 : I mean, I always decide to 2 do rounds within 30 to 40 minutes. 3 4 5 : Right. : Yeah. : But did you ever talk 6 about the actual documentation of it? 7 : No. 8 : No? 9 : Not specifically to her, 10 no. 11 : All right. And speaking 12 of Tova on August 9th, referring back to that 13 Lieutenant log, are you able to determine who 14 it was that would have been the supervisor on 15 duty that -- 16 : For that night? 17 : -- that conducted a round 18 during - between 4:00 p.m. and midnight? 19 : That should have been 20 • 21 • 22 : It says here - I don't know 23 Lieutenant - on the 9th. 24 : On the 9th, correct, so 25 not the 10th, the 9th. EFTA00060469 98 1 : Oh, okay. 2 : Would have been or 3 - 4 : Well, was Acting 5 Lieutenant so she made the round at 7:31 p.m. 6 : Okay. And at 7:31 p.m. 7 on August 9th -- 8 : Correct. 9 : -- when she conducted a 10 round, would she have known that she had to 11 actually conduct the round and walk down the 12 tiers being that she was an Acting Lieutenant. 13 : Yes. 14 : So how would she know 15 that? 16 : She's the Acting 17 Lieutenant, so usually if you're an Acting 18 Lieutenant then you pretty much have to do 19 everything that the actual Lieutenant does 20 which is also part of conducting your rounds. 21 Now, it's her and another Lieutenant working 22 that night. Sometimes the other Lieutenant 23 might say, "Don't worry about SHU, I'll do the 24 rounds." But according to the log, she did the 25 rounds at that time. EFTA00060470 99 1 : Now, is that 2 certification that they make at the bottom of 3 these round sheets, is that certifying that 4 they actually conducted a round of the tiers? 5 : Yes. 6 : All right. So that's not 7 just saying that they visited the SHU, but 8 actually that they conducted a round in the 9 SHU. 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. Do you recall 12 having any conversations with anyone with 13 regard to rounds on August 9th, 2019? It could 14 be Epstein rounds, rounds in the SHU, anything 15 like that? 16 : Just staff, "Hey, let's 17 make sure we got these - keep these rounds up. 18 : Okay. But you are - you 19 said you did create the round sheet that 20 specifically said that Epstein rounds needed to 21 be done every 30 minutes (Indiscernible 22 *01:11:54). 23 : Right. 24 : Okay. And do you 25 remember if, you know, when you're -. EFTA00060471 100 1 : So whoever was there, day 2 watch - saw that paper. Monday I came in and 3 that paper wasn't there anymore. 4 : So it was there when you 5 left at 2:00 p.m. on Friday, August 9th. 6 : Yeah, was here. 7 : And that was gone by 8 Monday. 9 : By Monday. 10 : Okay. 11 : I was off weekends. 12 : But it was definitely 13 there on August 9th? 14 : For a fact, yes. 15 : Okay. And you said it 16 was hanging right on the computer? 17 : Yeah. 18 : So it was like blocking 19 the screen or how -. 20 : No, it was right next to 21 the screen. 22 : Right next to the screen. 23 : It wasn't blocking the 24 screen. It was next to the screen. 25 : Is it hanging on the PC? EFTA00060472 101 1 : Yeah. 2 : So, not the monitor 3 : Oh, no. 4 : -- but the actual computer 5 itself. 6 : Yeah, like on the side. 7 : And not only, obviously, 8 that's a big orange document, was it the same 9 size as what we're showing you or is that 10 enlarged? 11 : It was -- 12 : The same size as -- 13 : -- the same exact -. 14 : -- as a regular piece of 15 paper. 16 : That, but a little bright 17 orange paper with black letter. 18 : So roughly 11" by 12" or 19 13" or whatever those are. Okay. And so 20 obviously that's a notice for everyone. Do you 21 remember on August 9th though specifically 22 talking with anyone about conducting rounds on 23 Epstein? 24 : It was something we spoke 25 about every day. EFTA00060473 102 1 2 3 : Oh, you did. : Like -- : There were conversations, 4 "Make sure you -." 5 : -- "Hey, look, this guy is 6 still here. He's right there," you know, 7 "Let's make sure -." 8 : Even though he was in 9 attorney conference though? 10 : No. Make sure we're doing 11 rounds. And everybody spoke about it, "Make 12 sure we're doing round, make sure we're doing 13 rounds." 14 : So even though he's gone 15 for the majority of your day at least, was that 16 something, you know, when you were like leaving 17 your shift, would you have said, "Hey, make 18 sure 19 : Oh, yeah. Yeah. 20 : -- you know, for God, 21 make sure." 22 : Hell yeah. And, everybody 23 already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 24 "Hey, make sure you guys do your rounds." 25 : So that was going to be EFTA00060474 103 1 my next question. So, who else was instructing 2 you on doing rounds and specifically doing 3 rounds on Epstein? 4 : Everybody. 5 : And can you remember -- 6 : So -. 7 : -- any specific direction 8 coming from anyone? 9 : So, Warden used to 10 walk around a lot in SHU and he say, "Hey, make 11 sure you guys keep an eye on him," pretty much 12 directly, but in the indirectly telling us to 13 do our job. 14 : Right. 15 : Same thing with Lieutenant 16 . He used to walk around, "Hey guys, make 17 sure you do your rounds." And, you know, 18 , the same thing, "Hey, make 19 sure you guys do rounds." 20 : Now being that you were 21 the OIC and was the SHU Lieutenant, can 22 you remember any specific conversations with 23 him with regard to Epstein and doing rounds or 24 anything? 25 : Well, he used to tell us EFTA00060475 104 1 just, "Make sure you're on top of it. 2 : Do you know from the time 3 that was placed with on July 30th and the 4 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 5 cellmate. Can you recall any conversations 6 specifically with with regards to Epstein? 7 : I think he told us to put 8 him in with Reyes. Uh-huh. 9 : And again, do you know 10 why he was - Reyes was chosen? Now, I know you 11 said he was an older gentleman 12 : Right. 13 -- and he had a cane or 14 something like that, but I mean, you -- 15 : So I think -. 16 : -- you don't know 17 anything other than the fact that Psychology 18 : Psychology probably 19 recommended him or they looked through the 20 whole SHU roster and felt he was probably the 21 safest person to put him with. 22 : Okay. And do you know if 23 people were conducting rounds on Epstein like 24 your sign said? Because you weren't there when 25 he was there, so do you know if -. EFTA00060476 105 1 : So, after 2 o'clock, they 2 should have been conducting rounds. 3 : Right. 4 : And I don't remember 5 : Well, he would get back 6 around like 8 o'clock, right? 7 : Right. I don't -- 8 : So, like 8:00 p.m. on -. 9 : -- remember if we started 10 showers or not going on but they should - 11 regardless while he was there or not, they 12 should have still continued the rounds. 13 : And I know that they 14 should have, but do you know if they were? 15 : I can't say, "Yes, they 16 did," or, "No, they did not. 17 : But whenever you were 18 there, they were being done? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. 21 : We were all over the place. 22 : All right. So this is 23 where it's going to get a little complicated, 24 so just bear with me. I'm going to show you 25 these count slips from August 9th up until EFTA00060477 106 1 midnight of August 10th. I'm just going to 2 have you help - this is where, remember, I said 3 I was going to help you, you know, put this 4 puzzle together. I believe we already know the 5 answers but I don't want to give you the 6 answers in fear that I'm wrong. So this is 7 from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count 8 and I want to show you the Lieutenant's log 9 which, where is that? So here's the 10 Lieutenant's log. And we didn't print out that 11 paper that I made, did I? 12 : Which one? 13 : The one that I drafted 14 yesterday and said, "Make sure we print this 15 out." All right, so, we'll just start with 16 8:00 a.m., since that's when you came in, so we 17 can actually - the reason I was showing you the 18 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to 19 notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? 20 : Yes. 21 : And so 77 is the total 22 count in the SHU for inmates? 23 24 : Correct. : Then we look back at 25 these count slips and we see - sorry I'm EFTA00060478 107 1 looking over you, but, ZA says -. 2 3 4 "77," correct? 5 : Thomas. : And at 10:00 it says, : Yes. 6 : All right. So we'll put 7 that here. It says on the Lieutenant's log, 8 n77," -- 9 : 77, yes. 10 11 12 correct? All right. So now where are we at? We're at the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 : 4:00 p.m., yes. 14 : Correct? So for ZA, it 15 shows 76 total, right? 16 : Yes. 17 : One in attorney client, 18 brings it down to 75. 19 : Yes. 20 : So what should the count 21 slip reflect then? 22 : At this time? 23 : Yes. 24 : The count, the physical 25 bodies in SHU. EFTA00060479 108 1 : Okay. So it should 2 reflect -- 3 : 75. 4 : -- 75. Okay, great. So 5 here where ZA, ZA shows 75, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. Now we're looking 8 at 10:00 p.m. ZA says 73, right? 73 total 9 bodies it says at 10:00 p.m.? Now the ZA - 10 where is it? ZA count slip says, "73 plus 1." 11 First, can you think of any reason why it would 12 say, "Plus 1?" 13 : It shouldn't say, "Plus 1," 14 unless somebody came in at night. 15 : Okay. 16 : But regardless, that 17 shouldn't be like that, it should be 74. 18 : Okay. 19 : Not 73 plus 1. 20 : So this is where you're 21 going to start getting interested. So at 22 midnight, the ZA count says, "72." "72," 23 right? So the count slip says, "73." Now, 24 reviewing this, the E-1 says, "72," same 25 institutional count, says, "72," the count slip EFTA00060480 109 1 still says, "73." Now let's look at this. And 2 granted, you just told us this could have been 3 done later in the day so maybe this wasn't done 4 at the time. 5 : By that time, it should 6 have been done. 7 : So 8:00 a.m. So we have 8 these different places where it says these 9 people were moved. So the 8:30 a.m., do you 10 agree that inmate Reyes was removed and it 11 brings the count down to 76? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. So we go down 14 to 75. is placed on dry cell from 15 ZA. 16 17 18 19 : Okay. : Moves it down to 75. : -- 75. All right. So 20 that 4:00 should have said - the 4:00 p.m. 21 count should have said -. 22 : Should have been 75. Which 23 is 75. 24 : Right. But, shouldn't 25 have this said, "75?" EFTA00060481 110 1 : No. 2 : Because the 75, one 3 person in attorney, that should be 74, right? 4 : Yes. So this is fine at 5 76. So now -. 6 : But that, isn't that 7 referring to Epstein being in attorney? 8 : Yes. 9 : So, shouldn't this say 75 10 based upon this? 11 : Reyes was moved before that. 12 : Unless -. 13 : So this is at 3:15, the 14 count goes down to 75, so shouldn't this E-1 15 say 75 here? 16 : No, because this guy could 17 have still been doing dry cell in SHU. 18 : Okay. 19 : Meaning, dry cell, he's 20 inside a cell. The water is off, he doesn't 21 have any clothes. He uses the bathroom inside 22 of SHU. 23 : So -. 24 : Let me keep my thought. 25 All right. So then this brings it down. So EFTA00060482 111 1 3:15, now we go over to - it brings it down to 2 74 here, Hemmingway. Brings that count to 74. 3 : He got kicked out. 4 : Reid gets 73. 5 : He got kicked out. 6 : Felix goes down to 71. 7 : Another one -. 8 comes in, goes to 9 72. That's at 8:28 p.m. So 72 is the count at 10 8:28 p.m. ZA still says 73. Now let's look at 11 that. It says now, R&D now has one in it. 12 Fernandez is in R&D dry cell. It actually 13 doesn't even say he's on it in this thing. 14 : No. 15 : But, ZA says, "73," 16 there's no one for that one, correct? 17 : Right. 18 : And this is where it 19 says, "73 plus 1." Would the thought maybe, 20 saying, "73 plus 1," that one being Fernandez 21 on dry cell, and they're using the 22 institutional count 73? 23 : Should have been, if he's 24 in dry cell in SHU, he's counted inside of SHU. 25 : Right. So -. EFTA00060483 112 1 : If he's not in SHU, then he 2 shouldn't be counted. 3 : So he's not in SHU. 4 : Correct. So that means, 5 the count should have been 73. 6 : And should have that 7 count been changed way back here if he's not in 8 SHU? Should have this, like we talked about, 9 this 4:00 p.m. -- 10 : Yes. 11 : -- should have said 75? 12 : Correct. 13 : And why is that? 14 : You count physical bodies. 15 : Physical bodies. You 16 don't count ghost counts or you don't count 17 people that aren't in your -. 18 : No. if you don't see the 19 flesh and it's a stand up count, so every 20 person or inmate, whether it's in SHU or in a 21 unit, they have to stand up for the count and 22 you verify it, one, two, three, four, five, 23 six, then the person behind you has to verify 24 that count. 25 : All right, and so what is EFTA00060484 113 1 your -. 2 : If it's a body there, he 3 gets counted. 4 : What is your opinion then 5 if in fact that at 3:15, is moved out 6 of the SHU and placed -- 7 : Then the count just 8 dropped. 9 and placed into - 10 right. But the fact that the count slip for ZA 11 matches still what the E-1 says. Does that 12 tell you anything about if the count was 13 conducted or not? 14 : It should have been - and 15 everything is should have. So -- 16 : So that should have said 17 - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if 18 isn't in there, that should have 19 actually said, "74," correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : So does that tell you 22 that they did or did not conduct the count in 23 the SHU? 24 : If they counted 75 physical 25 bodies, then that's a good count. EFTA00060485 114 1 : Right. 2 : But now, if there is not 75 3 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off 4 whatever it is they were going off and verified 5 it with this paper right here, which not 6 everybody has access to it. This is the E-1 7 that we keep count on. 8 : So would the SHU people 9 that are in the SHU, would they have access to 10 know what the count was for this E-1, what 11 they're utilizing for that count? 12 : No. Unless somebody says, 13 "Hey, you're missing one, your count is 75." 14 : So the only way someone 15 in the SHU would be able to actually know what 16 number to provide is by actually doing the 17 count? 18 : Correct. 19 : Really? All right. So 20 if we know that is now not in the 21 SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number 22 for 4:00 p.m. and then as well as at 10:00 23 p.m., they're coming up with a wrong number and 24 again at midnight, they're writing down the 25 wrong number. They're writing down the number EFTA00060486 115 1 that they think the institutional count is, but 2 there's not that many people that are actually 3 in SHU. How do we explain that? 4 : So, the only thing I can 5 think of is they put - they locked somebody up 6 between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock 7 count meaning somebody from the unit did 8 something wrong and they ended up in the 9 Special Housing Unit. So that's how the 10 numbers would be different. 11 : So if we have information 12 that -. 13 : And - sorry to interrupt. 14 : No, go ahead. 15 : Again, everybody is human 16 and everybody makes mistakes, unless somebody 17 write in the log missed one inmate going from a 18 unit out or leaving from SHU to a unit. 19 : Well, that's exactly 20 right. So at 3:15, was never keyed 21 out of the SHU. He wasn't keyed out of the SHU 22 until this count at midnight. 23 : So he was placed in dry 24 cell where? 25 : So, at - he was placed in EFTA00060487 116 1 dry cell at - are R&D and RA the same thing? 2 : Okay. That's right. 3 : Yeah, can you just read 4 what it is that you showed me? 5 : Oh, I'm sorry. 6 : I'm sorry. 7 : -- no -- 8 : Okay. Sorry. 9 : I mean, you should 10 read it, too. 11 : Just, I pointed to the line 12 that states, on the day watch for Friday, 13 August 9th, there's a line that says, "Inmate 14 Fernandez, 86824054 on dry cell with staff 15 watch in R&D." Is R- Agent asked a question. 16 : So, with this knowledge 17 and now also, with like I showed you - or first 18 of all, are count slips for RA and R&D, are 19 they the same thing? 20 : Well it should be just R&D. 21 There's - 22 : Because one was on one of 23 these - let me see. It's at 12:00 a.m. It 24 actually says, "RA." 25 : That should be a B. EFTA00060488 117 1 : Instead of a D? 2 : Yes. It should be a BA 3 which is on the second floor of persons placed 4 on watch, that's where they go. 5 : Should that - instead of 6 saying, "RA," -- 7 : So -. 8 : -- it should say, "BA?" 9 : Correct. If it's 10 : Because that -. 11 : If it's there. But they 12 probably wrote R&D. 13 : Well, it doesn't - so 14 this one says R&D. At 10:00 p.m. there's a 15 count slip from R&D that says, "1." It says 16 that's 17 , yes. 18 : 10:00 p.m. And just from 19 reviewing this stuff, I'm assuming that this 20 one at 10:00 p.m. and this one that says, "RA," 21 at 12:00 a.m. are one in the same. Would that 22 be your logic as well? 23 : Yes. It should have the 24 same number. 25 : So why is it - one say, EFTA00060489 118 1 "RA" and one say "R&D?" 2 : Maybe he spelled the name - 3 spelled it wrong. 4 : All right, so the "RA" is 5 the one that's wrong? 6 : It should have been "R&D." 7 : R&D. 8 : Correct. 9 : Instead of RA. Okay. So 10 this RA is just - but that - you believe that's 11 actually the same 12 : Yes. 13 : -- the same location. 14 : Yes. 15 : All right. So with all 16 that information now, knowing that he's in dry 17 cell, he's out of the SHU, however somehow, 18 their count slips are matching what the 19 institutional counts show, how do we explain 20 that if they don't have access to the 21 institutional count? 22 : Well they shouldn't have 23 access. 24 : Is there a way that they 25 can? Like how would they know to write that EFTA00060490 119 1 number if only, for instance - let's even just 2 talk about 12:00 a.m. Only 72 people are 3 physically in the SHU but they're writing 73 4 and they're off ever since you leave. So 4:00 5 p.m. 6 : 10:00 p.m. 7 : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 8 a.m. counts are all off and we're trying to - 9 this is where we're saying we're hoping that as 10 the OIC you can help us 11 : So -- 12 : -- put that puzzle 13 together. 14 : -- my only assumption would 15 be, whoever was working that night, had access 16 to the E-1, which is that's what we use. 17 : And do you know if - I 18 think you said it was, what, • 19 Who was it that was 20 : I don't think 21 would have access. 22 : But they're not actually 23 supposed to have access? 24 : Correct. 25 : So yeah, I'm just trying EFTA00060491 120 1 to -- 2 : And -. 3 : -- rectify this thing. 4 : Unless they cheated and 5 said, "Hey, how many do we have up here?" 6 That's my only - it's either they had access, 7 they looked at it. 8 : Because we've also been 9 told at least by one of these people that they 10 write the count slips before ever doing the 11 count. So how would they know what number to 12 put in the count slips if they didn't actually 13 do the count? 14 : So they shouldn't and my 15 other explanation is they actually did have the 16 bodies, but one of them was in SHU and was 17 never written on the log. So now, there's this 18 other thing called a PP-38 that shows who goes 19 in and outside of the building and what moves 20 are being made inside the building. 21 : So would that help us 22 rectify this? 23 : That would actually help 24 you because it would - that's our little cheat 25 sheet, like I told you before, that we log in EFTA00060492 121 1 during the day or right before I get relieved 2 at 2 o'clock, I'm going to print out that PP- 3 38, it's going to show me every inmate movement 4 in the building and whatever specific date I 5 wanted. So if I'm doing today, three from SHU 6 just saying, "Left to another institution, to 7 Brooklyn." On that PP-38, it would say, 8 "Jones, Smith, Roberts moved to Brooklyn." So 9 now, I go that, I have 757, I just lost three. 10 Now I'm going down to 754. And just like it is 11 here, inmate 123 left to Brooklyn so now my 12 numbers go down. Again, we're all human, 13 sometimes there's a lot of movement, we might 14 miss one or two. So this right here -. 15 : But if these numbers 16 appear to all add up starting the day at 77 -- 17 : Correct. 18 : I showed you at 5:00 19 a.m., then I can show you all the way through 20 after Epstein, you know, died, where I'm 21 assuming they definitely did the counts because 22 there's a - here's one that was done at 11:00 23 a.m., I guess that was the 10:00 a.m. count on 24 Saturday -- 25 : On Saturday, yes. EFTA00060493 122 1 : -- as well as the 5: