DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Phone: EFTA00116523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00116524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 Today is September 23, 2021. The time 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office, and these are my 8 credentials. 9 MS. : I see. 10 MR. : This interview with the 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 13 right? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 17 of the Inspector General, DOJ investigation. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 21 York City. Also present is DOJ Senior Special 22 Agent. 23 MR. -: . And 24 these are my credentials. Thank you. 25 MR. : This interview will be EFTA00116525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent, 5 6 MR. : Senior Special Agent 7 8 MS. : I'm correctional lieutenant 9 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 I1I-226/2. The form states, United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00116526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure, and security failure. 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 19 you understand -- 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- can you please sign where 22 it says employee name, signature? 23 MR. : Need a pen? 24 MS. : Thank you. 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. EFTA00116527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 2 *00:03:03). Thank you. 3 MS. : Okay. 4 MR. : Lieutenant , do you 5 understand the form? 6 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 7 MR. : And you are signing the form 8 also. 9 MS. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Thank you. 11 MS. : That's it. Do my name? 12 MR. : I'll fill out the 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- that part. 15 MS. : No problem. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 MS. : Thank you. 19 MR. : I can fill it out, 20 21 MR. : This is Agent . I' 22 signing on the signature of the Office of 23 Inspector General. 24 MR. : Thank you. And I am 25 going to sign as the witness and put my name. EFTA00116528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Thanks. 2 MR. : Before starting the 3 interview, I would like to place you under 4 oath. Lieutenant , can you please raise 5 your right hand? 6 MS. : Sure. 7 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 8 truth and nothing but the truth during this 9 interview? 10 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 11 MR. : Thank you. Please let me 12 know if you do not understand any questions, 13 and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for 14 you. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : What is your current home 17 address? 18 MS. 20 MR. 21 of birth? 22 MS. 23 MR. 24 number? 25 MS. Thank you. What is your date : What is your social security EFTA00116529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : Thank you. And what is your 2 current cell phone number? 3 MS. -: 4 MR. : What is your highest level of 5 education? 6 MS. : College. Bachelors. 7 MR. : Which college? 8 MS. : The College of New Rochelle. 9 MR. : And what was your -? That's 10 in New York? 11 MS. : It's upstate New Rochelle, 12 New York. Yes. 13 MR. : And what was your major in? 14 MS. : I was in psychology, though I 15 believe is liberal arts. 16 MR. : What did you do prior to 17 working for the BOP? 18 MS. : I worked for the New York 19 City Police Department as a school safety 20 agent. 21 MR. : And when did you start 22 working for the BOP? 23 MS. : When did I start? 24 MR. : Start. 25 MS. : May 18, 2003. EFTA00116530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : When did you graduate 2 college? 3 MS. : May of 2012. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Thank you. Do you have any 6 military service? 7 MS. : No, sir. 8 MR. : And you said in 2003, you 9 started with the BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : And when did you -? What was 12 the -? When did you first start? 13 MS. : MDC Brooklyn. 14 MR. : MDC Brooklyn? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : And you started as a C.O.? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. When did you graduate 19 from BOP training? 20 MR. : You don't remember the 21 answer? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It was probably shortly 24 after you started, correct? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116531 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Okay. And when did you 3 come to MCC? 4 MS. : I came to MCC January 31st, 5 2011. 6 MR. : And have you been here 7 since? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And have you been 10 in the SIS Shop since then? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I went into the SIS Shop in 14 2016. 15 MR. : 2016? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And then, in 2019, were 18 you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Great. 21 MR. : Okay. That's the basic 22 background we cover to -- 23 MR. : Yeah, no -- 24 MR. : -- on that. 25 MR. : -- you can go into the EFTA00116532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 questions. 2 MR. : So, what we're going to talk 3 to you today about is Mr. Are you aware of 4 who Jeffrey Epstein is? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And was he an inmate at the 7 MCC? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Were you familiar with him 10 while he was housed here at the MCC? 11 MS. : Yeah. I would say yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Let's start off. 13 Well, were you familiar with his first suicide 14 attempt? 15 MS. : Yes. I did the first 16 investigation on that one. Yes. 17 MR. : Did that approximately, did 18 that happen approximately around July 23rd, 19 2019? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Can you tell us what 22 happened? Based on your investigation and what 23 you found. 24 MS. : Based on my investigation, 25 once I found out about the suicide attempt when EFTA00116533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of their sides of the story. MR. : Was that Tartaglione? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. MR. MS. : Yes. Mr. Tartaglione. : Okay. : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D area. He was a little hesitant, at first, about speaking to me. He kept asking me who was I? You know, what was I interviewing him for? And I explained to him my position as the SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are met, and, you know, I questioned him about the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, I don't remember what happened. I remember him telling me he went to get a drink of water, and all he remembered is he was on the floor. And the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide much of anything else. I did question him about Mr. Tartaglione. You know, did you guys have any words with each other? You know, we were just cellmates at the time. You know, when you went to get the drink of water, and he would -. Either he say he was laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00116534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 8 floor. 9 MR. : Did you ask him if 10 Tartaglione attempted to harm him? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : And what did he say to 13 that? 14 MS. : And he said no. 15 MR. : And he said Tartaglione 16 did not -- 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : -- try to harm him? 19 MS. : He said he did not. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Was there a noose found 22 around his neck, at that point? Do you know? 23 MS. : I think it was. I think it 24 was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to 25 say, or something to that effect. They had EFTA00116535 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 with you. 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 suicide? 8 MS. : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 Tartaglione is who alerted the officers, by 10 banging on the door. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 How did they find him, do you recall? 14 MS. : I can't recall. I know that 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 Tartaglione did not try to kill him. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 noose himself, or how the noose came about? 24 MS. : No. He didn't. 25 MR. : And what was your impression EFTA00116536 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 2 tried to take his own life? 3 MS. : I kind of had mixed feelings 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 13 getting back from him. 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 15 Tartaglione didn't try to kill him? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, the only other option 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 19 commit suicide himself? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Or do you believe that 23 inmate Tartaglione attempted to harm him? 24 MS. : I don't. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00116537 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I don't. 2 MR. : So, was it inconclusive? 3 MS. : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 MR. : What is your feeling of 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 investigator. 7 MS. : I don't know if it was, you 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 Tartaglione tell me the truth. You know, I 15 really can't say what happened because you 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. Tartaglione, 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. : And was he placed on EFTA00116538 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 suicide watch as a result? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 6 MS. : If that was the thought made 7 by the psychology department -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. they would definitely 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 12 suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 14 made that determination that he would be placed 15 on suicide watch? 16 MS. : I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : I don't know. 19 MR. : But it wasn't based upon 20 your investigation? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Was it actually your 23 investigations conclusions, which actually 24 brought him off of suicide watch? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00116539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No? 2 MS. : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 general population, then they will release them 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 MS. : I don't think it did. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I don't think it did. 14 MR. : Inmate Tartaglione. Had he 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 MS. : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 for quite some time. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 MS. : Not violence. He was more of 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 MR. : Is -- 24 MS. : You know -- 25 MR. : -- is that why -- EFTA00116540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 MS. : -- something to that effect. 2 MR. : -- he was in the SHU? 3 MS. : I think that's why he was in 4 SHU at that time. 5 MR. : Do you recall how Tartaglione 6 got chosen to be Epstein's inmate? 7 MR. : Cellmate. 8 MR. : Cellmate. Sorry. 9 MS. : Oh. 10 MR. : Sorry. 11 MS. : Actually, I don't. I don't 12 know how they put the two of them together. 13 Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting 14 cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you 15 know, who do you think would be more suitable, 16 but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, I 17 don't know how they became cellmates. 18 MR. : You don't know if any 19 decisions were made by the higher ups, in 20 regards to him? 21 MS. : I don't know. 22 MR. : Okay. And after this 23 incident happened, was Tartaglione removed from 24 the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from 25 the cell? EFTA00116541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MS. : I'm not sure which one were 2 removed, or if they both was placed in 3 different cells, with different cellmates. I'm 4 not sure. 5 MR. : Well -. 6 MR. : Well, inmate Epstein was 7 actually placed on suicide watch. 8 MS. : Right. But I'm not sure if 9 Mr. Tartaglione remained in that same cell. 10 MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU 11 after that meeting with him? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Were there any issues with 14 him after that incident? 15 MS. : With? 16 MR. : With Tartaglione. 17 MS. : Not that I'm aware of. 18 MR. : Okay. And we asked about the 19 suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate 20 was - an incident like this happened, let's 21 skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. -- if an inmate was found 24 with a noose, and there was a possibility of a 25 suicide, what's the normal procedure that EFTA00116542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 3 MS. : If it was an incident where 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 14 suicide watch last? 15 MS. : It can vary. 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 18 MS. : Maybe a couple of days, but I 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 20 three. But maybe a couple of days. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00116543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Do you think that was too 2 early to remove him from suicide watch? I know 3 this is -. What is the difference between 4 psych op and suicide watch? 5 MS. : It's the same area. Psych 6 ops is, they just get their clothing back. But 7 they are still being watched. 8 MR. : It's the same thing, 9 right? 10 MS. : It's the same thing. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. : They're still being watched 13 by an inmate companion. 14 MR. : Is there any other benefit to 15 being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide 16 watch versus psych observation - any benefits 17 to being in psych ops? 18 MR. : Yeah. You have your 19 clothes. 20 MS. : You get your clothes. 21 MR. : Your clothes. 22 MS. : I mean -. 23 MR. : Was it - if it was any other 24 inmate - would they have given back his clothes 25 that fast? EFTA00116544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MS. : I don't know. That would be 2 the psychology department determination. 3 MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving 4 forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, 5 that he was removed from psych observation, and 6 he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall 7 hearing why he was removed from psych 8 observation -- 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : -- and placed back in the 11 SHU? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Do you have any questions? 14 MR. : Yeah. Just to go back, 15 file back to Nicholas Tartaglione. So, I knew 16 you - when asked - you said you weren't, you 17 knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of 18 a guy, but do you know of any instances where 19 he actually did harm another inmate? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : No? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Great. Thank you. 24 MR. : All right. Anything else on 25 the -? EFTA00116545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Nope. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You can go ahead. 4 MR. : Now, let's go to August 9th. 5 Were you working on August 9th, 2019? 6 MS. : I think I was off August 9th. 7 MR. : Okay. Let me just -. Would 8 you be -. Would your name be on the -? 9 MS. : On the roster? 10 MR. : On the roster. 11 MS. : Yeah. I would be on the 12 roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left 13 early August 9th. Or something. I can't 14 remember. 15 MR. : I'm going to provide you a 16 copy of August 9th -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- roster. MCC SHU roster. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : If you can take a look at it 21 and let me know if you were on schedule. 22 MS. : No. I'm not on it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : And who -- EFTA00116546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 2 MR. -- where would that be 3 listed? Sorry. 4 MR. : I thought you were going 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 7 just going back, before we talk about the 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 11 removed from psychological observation? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 15 trying to get him off of psychological 16 observation, so that they could continue with 17 their attorney/client visits? 18 MS. : No. I didn't hear. 19 MR. : You never heard that. 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 22 can move to the actual -. 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 25 MS. : Can I -. Actually -- EFTA00116547 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Where -? 2 MS. : I would be under the SIS 3 Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU 4 Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS 5 Lieutenant. 6 MR. : And there is - on that 9th, 7 what does it state there? It says unassigned? 8 MS. : Unassigned. 9 MR. : So, no one was working that 10 day? 11 MS. : No. I was the only SIS 12 Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. 13 Nobody was in there that day. 14 MR. : Can you just circle that for 15 us? 16 MS. : Sure. 17 MR. : So, you were not here on 18 the 9th, is what you are saying? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : And no one was? 23 MS. : Not in the SIS Shop. 24 MR. : Oh, wow. Is that 25 abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone EFTA00116548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 being in SIS? 2 MS. : Actually, the SIS Technician, 3 her days off is Friday and Saturday. 4 MR. : Oh, wow. 5 MS. : And at the time, it was only 6 two of us working in the whole area. 7 MR. : So, there was only one 8 tech and lieutenant? 9 MS. : One tech and one lieutenant. 10 MR. : Would the SIA have been 11 on? 12 MS. : We didn't have one at the 13 time. 14 MR. : Oh, so it was literally 15 just the two of you? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, 18 then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was 19 working? 20 MS. : No. I normally -- 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 22 *00:19:28). 23 MS. -- on a Friday, I would have 24 been on because she would have been off. So, 25 took off -- EFTA00116549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:19:36). 2 MS. -- on Friday. I can't recall 3 why. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : But -. 6 MR. : And who was the SIS tech? 7 MS. : Her name is 8 (Phonetic Sp. *00:19:43). 9 MR. _: 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MR. : But she wasn't here? 13 MS. : No. She wasn't here. 14 MR. : And do you recall that 15 you actually - I know that the schedule says 16 that - but do you recall not being here? 17 Thinking that it was the day before. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Put this here just in case we 21 need to go back. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : When did you first become 24 aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate Reyes, 25 was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00116550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : The day of the actual 2 suicide. 3 MR. : When you say actual suicide, 4 which would be -- 5 MS. : August 10th. 6 MR. : -- August 10th. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Saturday, when you came in, 9 that's when you learned -? 10 MS. : When I came in. Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, 12 when you came in, what were you aware of why 13 Reyes was removed from the institution? 14 MS. : After speaking to him, they 15 told me he got released from court. That's 16 what I was told. 17 MR. : Who told you that he was -? 18 MS. : Not sure. 19 MR. : Not sure. Okay. 20 MS. : I can't remember. 21 MR. : So, your understanding was, 22 Reyes went to court and he just didn't come 23 back? 24 MS. : Right. That's what I 25 understand. EFTA00116551 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : What's a normal procedure, 2 how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being 3 moved to court, or being transferred out? 4 MS. : From court, you're saying? 5 MR. : From court. Let's say -- 6 MS. : You're talking about court. 7 MR. : -- Reyes was -. 8 MR. : Well, no, in this case, 9 did you ever hear that Reyes actually never 10 went to court, he actually was transferred to 11 another institution? 12 MS. : No. I heard he went to 13 court. 14 MR. : So, even to this date -- 15 MS. : And was released from court. 16 MR. : -- to this date, did you 17 ever hear that, that he never went to court? 18 He actually was transferred? 19 MS. : No. I've never heard that. 20 MR. : Oh, you've never even 21 heard that? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because 24 that's what happened. He never went to court. 25 He was transferred. EFTA00116552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I still don't know. 2 MR. : That's what 3 (Indiscernible *00:21:24). 4 MS. : That's news to me, right. I 5 have -- 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : -- assumed that he went to 8 court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he 9 made bail or something -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. and he got released from 12 court. 13 MR. : But that's what everybody 14 was saying, that he actually went to court? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, based on what we - our 18 investigation, I'll show you an email. This 19 email is dated -. This is from Sampson Choo, 20 from the U.S. Marshals Service. 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : And it went to, it looks like 23 the employees at the R&D. 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : And it says, transfer of EFTA00116553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. 2 This email was sent to them. If you take a 3 look at the title, the subject, it says, 4 "Transfer of inmates." 5 MS. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And it says, "Transfer of 7 prisoners from -- 8 MS. : I see it. 9 MR. : -- to GEO. 10 MS. : To GEO. 11 MR. : And inmate Efrain Reyes is 12 stated on this. So, he never -. It's not that 13 he went to court. He actually was transferred 14 to GEO. Do you know what the procedure is for 15 something like that? If an inmate is to be 16 transferred, how do they pull the inmate out? 17 How do they let the SHU know that the inmate 18 needs to be pulled out? 19 MS. : Normally, R&D would get in 20 touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in 21 the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their 22 courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. 23 MR. : Is that known as a court 24 list? 25 MS. : A court list. EFTA00116554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 MR. : And that list comes over, and 2 they let the SHU officers know? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : So, they prepare them. And 5 on that - if that he was leaving - what would 6 it state on the -? Have you ever heard the 7 term, WAB? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : What does -- 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : WAB mean to you? 12 MS. : With All Belongings. 13 MR. : And what is your 14 understanding if it states that? 15 MS. : To me, With All Belongings 16 can mean anything. You know, where is he 17 going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? 18 MR. : But does it mean that he's 19 coming back? 20 MS. : To me, no. 21 MR. : And your understanding is, if 22 it says WAB, he's leaving for certain? 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00116555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 MR. : And when, as an SIS, 2 would you get a copy of those court production 3 lists -- 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : -- or productions? No? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on 9 the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after 10 this investigation started, after Epstein's 11 death, ever seeing that court list for that 12 day? 13 MS. : No. I've never seen it. 14 MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy 15 of it, do you know if there's any way we can 16 obtain a copy of that? 17 MS. : I would think it should be in 18 the Receiving and Discharge area. 19 MR. : And that's something that 20 they -- 21 MS. : The R&D. 22 MR. : -- if we asked, and based on 23 it, it said no one seems to have maintained a 24 copy of that. It looks like they've printed 25 off for the day, and then they disposed of it. EFTA00116556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Was it kept, though, 4 under your investigation, for when you went in 5 on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, 6 part of, like, anything that you would have 7 collected? 8 MS. : Did I? I don't think I had 9 the court list. 10 MR. : No? 11 MS. : To be honest with you. I had 12 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 13 court list. 14 MR. : So, in the stuff -- 15 MS. : Oh. 16 MR. : -- that you did, on the 17 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into 18 it at all, Reyes leaving and Epstein not having 19 a cellmate? 20 MS. : I think I did. I think I did 21 run his SENTRY paperwork, once I got here, to 22 see where was Reyes. What happened with Reyes. 23 I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. 24 MR. : Okay. But you didn't -. 25 You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that EFTA00116557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 court list, though? 2 MS. : I didn't have the court list. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : I don't recall having a court 5 list. No. 6 MR. : And so, do you - if R&D 7 doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is 8 any way that we could get our hands on one of 9 these court lists? 10 MS. : I don't know. I don't know, 11 in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their 12 functions. So, I don't even know if they were 13 able to - be able to go back. 14 MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. 15 They replace it every day. 16 MS. : Right. 17 MR. : Every (Indiscernible 18 *00:25:14), so no one 19 MS. : See, I don't -- 20 MR. : -- it's only maintained 21 in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other 22 email? 23 MR. : Which one? 24 MR. : The one that they sent 25 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was EFTA00116558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 being transferred. 2 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 3 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 4 print that one out. 5 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshals 7 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 8 they still do this - but they would send out an 9 email the day before, which would be sent to, 10 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 11 other people, for people who, the following 12 day, are going to court or being transferred. 13 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 14 the Marshals Service? 15 MS. : I've probably seen it. 16 MR. : Okay. But you don't 17 really know what I'm talking about? 18 MS. : Oh, it -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : I would have to see it. 21 To be honest with you. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : I'm going to take a step 24 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 25 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you EFTA00116559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 recall that anyone from upper management, or 2 even psych, mentioning that he was required to 3 have a cellmate? 4 MS. : I didn't hear it, per se. 5 But normally, when they come off of suicide 6 watch, or a psych observation, they have to 7 have a cellmate. And psychology, usually 8 harbor on that. You know? They have to 9 MR. : Why is it 10 MS. -- have a cellmate. 11 MR. : -- why is it that they need a 12 cellmate? 13 MS. : I don't want to guess, but I 14 would say, even though, you know, an attempt 15 possibly was made, you want to prevent 16 something happening going forward. 17 MR. : And do you recall - but you 18 said you're not sure - but do you recall that 19 there was a requirement for Epstein to have a 20 cellmate? 21 MS. : Yes. I do recall them saying 22 he had to have a cellmate. 23 MR. : And that was by word of 24 mouth? 25 MS. : By word of mouth. EFTA00116560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : Do you recall who you heard 2 it from? 3 MS. : Let's see. I want to say Dr. 4 Miller, who is the psychologist. I want to say 5 Dr. Miller said that he has to have a cellmate. 6 MR. : So, she probably came down. 7 Do you recall if she told other people in the 8 SHU, in regards to that? 9 MS. : I don't know because I 10 wouldn't have been in the SHU. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MS. : Sorry. 13 MR. : The reason I ask is, now that 14 we know that Reyes is leaving the SHU, right? 15 And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes 16 down, and our understanding is, on that court 17 list, it states WAB -- 18 MS. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- and he's brought down to 20 R&D. And he's removed from the facility. 21 Whose responsibility would it have been, at 22 that point, to make sure that Epstein had a 23 cellmate? 24 MS. : I would say the supervisor. 25 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, EFTA00116561 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 because he would know that he's leaving out of 2 the SHU. 3 MR. : And this is the August 9th 4 roster again. If you take -. 5 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant Rice 6 was actually off -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- on the 9th, as well. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, if he is off, then 11 who would then become the next person -- 12 MS. : The next person -- 13 MR. : -- moving up? 14 MS. would be the Operations 15 Lieutenant, should have been notified. 16 MR. : And who should have 17 notified the Operations Lieutenant? 18 MS. : Normally, the SHU staff would 19 say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, 20 Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. 21 MR. : And at what point -- 22 MS. : So, I'm sorry -- 23 MR. : -- should the -- 24 MS. : cellmate. 25 MR. : That's fine. EFTA00116562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : At what point should the 2 SHU staff have notified the Operations 3 Lieutenant? 4 MS. : Immediately. 5 MR. : So, as soon as that 6 person is being -? 7 MS. : As soon as Mr. Reyes came out 8 that cell. 9 MR. : Okay. And is it one 10 person over another, within the SHU, that 11 should have told him? Or is it any one of 12 them? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : Or all of them? 15 MS. : I would say any one. 16 MR. : Was there a person referred 17 to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during 18 that time? Like, one specific -- 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : -- person. 21 MS. : They do have, yes, the SHU 22 OIC, yes. 23 MR. : I know this roster shows SHU- 24 1, SHU-2, SHU-3. But -- 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 MR. : -- was there any specific 2 person, during that time period, who was 3 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 4 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 5 charge? 6 MS. : Yes. It would been the SHU 7 number one, which would be Officer 8 MR. -: But what about, we 9 heard other people refer to as as, 10 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 11 been in there the longest, at that point. 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : He would be the OIC? 16 MS. : He was the OIC, probably for 17 the quarter, I would say, he was. 18 MR. : And why wouldn't he be 19 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 20 quarter? Do you know? 21 MS. : He could have been on his day 22 off. I don't know. 23 MR. : No, no. He was there. 24 And we heard that -- 25 MS. : Oh, he was? EFTA00116564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : -- he actually was the 2 OIC. But he's not listed as one. 3 MS. : Oh, I don't know. I didn't 4 even see him as the number three. I don't -. 5 I don't know. 6 MR. : But he should have been 7 listed as one, because he was the quarter -- 8 MS. : If that was his -- 9 MR. : -- post? 10 MS. : -- if that was his post for 11 the quarter, he should have been listed as the 12 SHU number one. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Unless they did a switch, or 15 a mutual thing, or something to that effect. 16 MR. : And , at that point, 17 in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, an 18 the SHU OIC, from your recollection? 19 MS. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, the morning of, what 21 happened based on our investigation, is Epstein 22 and his cellmate, Reyes, were removed at the 23 same time. So, Officer came in. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : With the court order. He EFTA00116565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 knew -- 2 MR. : Court list. 3 MR. : -- court list, and he knew 4 that Reyes was leaving. So, they packed up his 5 stuff in a little brown paper bag, and 6 retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they 7 both were transported on the elevator down 8 together. Epstein to attorney conference, and 9 Reyes out. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : And we know, in the elevator, 12 too, there was a conversation about Epstein 13 needing a cellmate. 14 MS. : Okay. 15 MR. : Now, being that 16 escorted him down, and down, he was in the 17 elevator, and was in the elevator, 18 knowing that Reyes is leaving, out of them two, 19 should either of them have made a notification 20 immediately? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Do you think they would have 23 known that it was important that they made the 24 notification? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Why do you think that? 2 MS. : If you had a conversation 3 about him needing a cellmate, that means - to 4 me - you know that it was important for him to 5 have one. And you knew that his - obviously - 6 Mr. Reyes was leaving WAB. And Epstein needed 7 a cellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then 8 and there, the notification should have been 9 made. Even though he's in attorney conference, 10 but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we 11 need a cellmate for him. 12 MR. : Is there any reason for them 13 to believe that, even though it showed WAB, 14 that Reyes - that for them to believe that 15 Reyes would be coming back? 16 MS. : I would say no. If it says 17 WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that 18 he's not coming back. 19 MR. : Now, if, let's say they've 20 mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to 21 R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they're not 22 going to court, and sometimes they come back 23 up. How long does that process normally take? 24 MS. : It happens. Hmm. I've seen 25 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates EFTA00116567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 will come back up. 2 MR. : So, this is, they were 3 brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 4 8:30 a.m. 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, when you say a couple 7 hours, we're talking about anywhere between 8 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? 9 MS. : Yeah. I've seen inmates come 10 up later. You know, an hour and a half, you 11 know, he didn't -. He's not leaving on a bus. 12 Once they get everybody on the bus, they will 13 go back up to Special Housing. 14 MR. : Now, if the inmate was not 15 brought back up to the SHU, let's say by even 16 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they're 17 expecting that there is a possibility that the 18 inmate might come back up, and it doesn't 19 happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a 20 notification? 21 MS. : They normally would. And 22 because they - I'm going to reach and say - 23 they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't 24 come back -- 25 MR. : I should clarify that -- EFTA00116568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : -- come by then. 2 MR. -- I mean, I meant 3 notification, should or anybody in the 4 SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the 5 superior, hey, listen - supervisors - hey, 6 listen, Reyes is gone, and Epstein is 7 MR. : And not 11:00. Just 8 during their shift. At some point, if they 9 left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a 10 notification, should have they known by 2:00 11 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming 12 back? 13 MS. : Absolutely. 14 MR. : Okay. So, at some point, 15 prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have 16 been made? 17 MS. : Yes. Yes. 18 MR. : And you mentioned that it 19 should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. 20 Lieutenant Rice is not there. And it should 21 have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops 22 lieutenant during that shift? The morning 23 shift. 24 MS. • 25 MR. : And he should have been EFTA00116569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 notified, and what should have 2 done? 3 MS. : He should have notified, of 4 course, his chain of command, which is the 5 captain, hey, Epstein's cellmate has left, and 6 he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would 7 have told psychology, you know, Epstein's 8 cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because 9 somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would 10 say, I guess, they would go back to that 11 process of seeing who was a good fit for him. 12 MR. : And if - what is your 13 understanding - if that notification was never 14 made up the chain of command? 15 MR. : What's your question? 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : What is your understanding, 18 if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, 19 in terms of -. I should clarify that. If that 20 notification never got -. If never 21 told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant 22 never told the captain, right? When was the 23 next time they would have caught onto the fact 24 Epstein needed a cellmate? 25 MS. : Again, I would say somewhere EFTA00116570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 between that shift, they should have made that 2 notification. If not, it would have went onto 3 the evening shift, that he still was without a 4 celimate. 5 MR. : And you said that the inmate 6 was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a 7 celimate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU 8 assigned somebody to be Epstein's cellmate? 9 MS. : Normally, in a case where 10 they try to get that good fit, they would talk 11 to the captain, who would talk to psychology, 12 and they'll go through the SHU roster to see 13 who they think would be suitable to put him in 14 with. 15 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 16 else on that? 17 MR. : Yes. So, when you go to 18 - you said the next shift - so, who -? So, 19 you're saying that, after left, and 20 his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU 21 should have, then, made the same notifications 22 up the chain of command? 23 MS. : If they're saying he didn't 24 have a cellmate. 25 MR. : Okay. And then, would EFTA00116571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that go on again to the morning watch? 2 Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 3 hours. So, every shift, should have they made 4 that notification up? 5 MS. : I would say yes. 6 MR. : Okay. And is it your 7 understanding that the operations lieutenant 8 actually has that same court list, that they 9 would have had, that would have shown him as 10 WAB? 11 MS. : The court list, yeah. 12 Usually, it's in the lieutenant's office, in 13 the mornings. 14 MR. : Okay. So, if says 15 that he actually knows that Reyes left, or 16 thought he went to court, and didn't know if he 17 wasn't going to come back, if he had that court 18 list, that said WAB, should have he referenced 19 that, or looked at it? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Yes? 22 MS. : Yes, sir. 23 MR. : Okay. So, is that a kind 24 of an excuse to say, for the operations 25 lieutenant, hey, I know Reyes left, but I EFTA00116572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 thought he was coming back, and he - or I 2 didn't know if he wasn't coming back - and he 3 did not pass that information onto the next ops 4 lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of 5 that matter? 6 MS. : My opinion of that is 7 definitely, you know, something is wrong, 8 because if you have the court list sitting in 9 front of you, it says WAB. And it means he 10 took all his belongings. You know, if it was 11 court, it would say court. 12 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 how, do the operations lieutenants actually 14 look at that list? 15 MS. : I can't speak for -. 16 MR. : Are they supposed to? 17 MS. : I would say yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Because you know who's moving 20 from the Special Housing. And some of the 21 inmates that move actually are lieutenant 22 moves, where you have to go up and get them. 23 So, you're going to look at the court list to 24 see who is moving. 25 MR. : Okay. And then, as far EFTA00116573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 as Reyes. Did everyone know who Reyes was at 2 that time? Do you believe that, if, for 3 instance, someone like a , he sees 4 Reyes on the list, sees that he's WAB. Would 5 he know that's Epstein's cellmate? It says 6 he's from the SHU. He's WAB. Would he know 7 that that's Epstein's cellmate? Or do you 8 think that that notification would still need 9 to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to 10 kind of recognize that? 11 MS. : I can't even say he should 12 have known that that was his cellmate because 13 he's in a different area than the Special 14 Housing. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : So, sometimes, you wouldn't 17 know whose cell that up there, you know, up in 18 the Special Housing. 19 MR. : Okay. But if he says, 20 now, SHU didn't tell me, but I knew because I 21 had the court list, and it says WAB, should 22 have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this 23 guy was gone, and he was not coming back? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00116574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I can agree with that. 2 MR. : Okay. Great. What do 3 you think the -? Would that court list stay in 4 the operations, or the lieutenants office, 5 throughout the duration of the day, would the 6 next operation lieutenant that came on - which 7 I believe is Cannata - would that person have 8 also had that court list? 9 MS. : It normally stay in there for 10 the day. On a clipboard. It usually would be 11 on a clipboard in the lieutenant's office. So, 12 I don't -. I can't say that Cannata, you know, 13 looked at it, but it should have been there 14 when he came on. 15 MR. : Should have he looked at 16 it? 17 MS. : I could -. 18 MR. : And I'm asking you this 19 as the SIS lieutenant. We don't know the 20 answer to that. So, that's why we're asking 21 you. 22 MS. : A good lieutenant would. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MS. : Because you would know who is 25 not in your jail. EFTA00116575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 MR. : Right. As far as other 2 people that could have made this notification, 3 what would the unit teams' responsibility be 4 for if one of their people who was assigned to 5 SHU, left the institution? Should have they 6 been coordinating, or making any notifications? 7 MS. : I'm not sure what role they 8 play when the inmates leave the Special 9 housing, to be honest with you. 10 MR. : You don't? 11 MS. : Yeah. I don't know what role 12 they play. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : With their inmates. That's 15 an issue, as far as them leaving. 16 MR. : All right. So, for you, 17 though, you feel, like, the primary person that 18 would be responsible would be the person who 19 was actually with the inmate, who brought him 20 down, and knew that he was leaving? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : So, in this case, 23 should have made the 24 notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is 25 that what you would say? EFTA00116576 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 MS. : I would say him and whatever 2 other officer did the escort with him. 3 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 4 MS. : Because they know the SHU 5 inmates. 6 MR. : Right. Okay. 7 MR. : What about the officers in 8 the SHU, at that point? Let's say there was 9 how many officers that you mentioned? 10 and who else were in the SHU? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : In the morning shift. 13 MS. -: 14 MR. 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Should they have -. Would 17 they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? 18 MS. : Yes. If they're working up - 19 yeah - I would say yes. 20 MR. : And let's say, during this 21 shift, should they have understood - I know he 22 asked already - should they have understood the 23 fact that, hey, Epstein needed a cellmate 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- could they have made EFTA00116577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 notification? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : And who came to the SHU after 4 that? 5 MS. -: . Ms. Noel. And 6 7 MR. : And during this shift, should 8 they have known also? Should they have made 9 notification? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Anything else on that? 12 MR. : And they would have 13 known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? 14 MS. : From doing their rounds. 15 MR. : And if they were -- 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- doing rounds, they 18 would know there's no one in that cell? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, we can go into the 22 rounds? 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : And the counts. So, based on 25 our - based on what we - in our investigation, EFTA00116578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 2 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., 5 and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : And if the counts were done, 8 as Agent just asked, if the counts were 9 done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that 10 Reyes was not there, and Epstein needed a 11 12 13 14 15 16 that we were able to determine it, is also 17 because of the fact that inmate Fernandez was 18 removed from the SHU by He was 19 actually in the SHU visiting room, and there 20 was an incident where witnessed him 21 possibly having contraband, so he removed him. 22 He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a 23 dry cell in R&D. 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Except he was not keyed out. cellmate? MS. : Yes. MR. : What about at 10:00 p.m.? MS. : Yes. MR. : All right. And the reason EFTA00116579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after 2 -. Except he was not keyed until after 3 midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed 4 from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry 5 cell, who should have -? Who had the 6 responsibility to key him out, at that point? 7 off the SHU and place him in R&D? 8 MS. : It would have been the counts 9 and assignment, to walk those in. 10 MR. : That's a CNA? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : I see. Counts and 13 assignment. And how would CNA have known that 14 he got moved? 15 MS. : Well, normally, they would 16 make a notification, I would say, when he got 17 to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in 18 the dry cell. 19 MR. : So, R&D should have notified 20 counts and assignments? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Was there any responsibility 23 for the officer who removed him from the SHU, 24 and brought him down? 25 MS. : He could have, as well. EFTA00116580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 Because you brought him down. And he's coming 2 off of the SHU base count. 3 MR. : What is -? He's coming off 4 the count -- 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : -- so, at 4:00 p.m., the 7 count should have been adjusted on the El, and 8 also -- 9 MS. : Absolutely. 10 MR. -- okay. Have you ever heard 11 of inmates pre-filling the rounds and count 12 sheets? 13 MS. : Inmates? 14 MR. : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I 15 apologize. Have you ever heard of the C.O.s 16 pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? When, 17 let's just say the rounds at the start of their 18 shift. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Right? And they go in, they 21 have their round sheet. They expect to do the 22 rounds during the certain times, so they go in 23 and they fill it out for the whole shift. And 24 they try to do it during those times that they 25 filled out. EFTA00116581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MS. : I've never seen it, to be 2 honest with you. I've never seen that. 3 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 4 doing that? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Has there ever been any 7 incidents in MCC regarding C.O.s pre-filling -? 8 MS. : Not that I know of. 9 MR. : What about the count sheets? 10 Would they start the shift, they already know 11 what count is supposed to be there? 12 MS. : I've seen that. 13 MR. : And what have you seen? 14 MS. : Well, my experience being a 15 lieutenant, and being in the control center, 16 taking the count, I have seen count slips come 17 down to the control center, and I'm monitoring 18 the camera because I'm physically watching you 19 count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I 20 haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, 21 and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I 22 have your count sheet and you haven't counted 23 yet? 24 MR. : Is that normal procedure as a 25 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from EFTA00116582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the control room, you pay attention to the 2 monitor, and you watch -? 3 MS. : I could only speak for 4 myself. 5 MR. : So, as your practice. 6 MS. : I do. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And you watch the C.O.s to 10 make sure that they're doing the counts. 11 MS. : Absolutely. 12 MR. : Which C.O.s have you seen 13 that haven't done that? That haven't done the 14 counts, but send their count slips in. 15 MS. : Pfft. I can't give you exact 16 names because I've been on all of the shifts. 17 MR. : And what happens if, in a 18 situation like that, if you see that, that they 19 didn't do the count, but they send the slip 20 down? What do you do? 21 MS. : I'm pulling. I'm doing a 22 verbal counseling. 23 MR. : Verbal counseling. 24 MS. : Yes. I'm doing a verbal 25 counseling. Basically, listen, don't send me EFTA00116583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 your count slip until you do your count. Next 2 time, I'm going to go to the next step, which 3 is discipline. 4 MR. : And have you ever told them 5 to go back and count? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : And they followed it? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : What is a lieutenant round? 10 You understand it, you just mentioned that, 11 when you do a count -- 12 MR. : In the SHU. What is a 13 lieutenant round in the SHU? 14 MR. : -- yeah. 15 MS. : In the SHU, with the 16 lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as 17 every other area, you see if there's anything 18 abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to 19 ask a question. You know, anything we should 20 know about, anything you got going on up there. 21 You're just making sure that the officers are 22 doing their job for the shift, the inmates are 23 getting their phone calls, if there's any 24 inmates that haven't been showered, who may 25 shower. You're making sure those are done. EFTA00116584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have 2 inmates calling you, once you get there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. : Once the door open. So, 5 you're going on the ranges and seeing what's 6 going on with the inmates on the ranges. 7 MR. : Now, are you supposed to 8 go from door to door, when your lieutenant does 9 a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to 10 do a round just as, like, a C.O. that's working 11 the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check 12 and see -- 13 MS. : To be honest -- 14 MR. : -- what's going on? 15 MS. : I don't think there's 16 nothing in policy stating that we have to go 17 door to door, and see each inmate, but you - 18 most of the time - you will go on a range, i 19 would assume, because you want to see what's 20 going on. With the inmates. Especially since 21 it's the Special Housing. 22 MR. : So, this is where we get 23 a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the 24 lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door 25 to door, and that's what a round is. A select EFTA00116585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, 2 no, that's not -. It's your discretion, if you 3 do that or not. So, are you kind of more of 4 that, that kind of side of it, it's their 5 discretion? 6 MS. : I'm more of -. 7 MR. : Because they have to sign 8 when they - is it correct - that they have to 9 sign the round sheet -- 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- saying they did a 12 round? 13 MS. : So, normally, like myself, I 14 would be on the range, because the round sheets 15 are on the range. So, you have to go on the 16 range to sign the round sheets. 17 MR. : But do you have - but 18 just to go on the range, I guess you don't 19 necessarily have to look in -- 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : -- their window. 22 Correct? 23 MS. : Right. But if you go on, 24 you're going to look door to door. I would 25 think. EFTA00116586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. : But this time, our 2 understanding is the round sheets were actually 3 kept on the officer's desks. On the desk out - 4 . So, not on the range. They all did it right 5 from where the desk was. Do you know if that's 6 the case? 7 MS. : I don't. I don't know. This 8 is the first I'm hearing of it. Because 9 normally, they're at the end of the range. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MS. : On the wall. So, that's 12 going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on 13 each range because you have to go to the end of 14 the range to sign. 15 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 16 there is maybe, MCC didn't have this practice, 17 but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant 18 round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the 19 lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, 20 saying that they conducted the round in the 21 SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that 22 they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, 23 and that's the reason why they put these sheets 24 at the end of the ranges? 25 MS. : I don't recall if that's what EFTA00116587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the policy says. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And just as far as 5 clarification, do you know if BOP policy states 6 where the count sheets, or the round sheets are 7 supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you 8 have to look at it, but does it state that it 9 should be either kept on the officer's desk, or 10 at the end of the -? 11 MS. : I've never seen 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. yeah. I've never seen 14 that policy where it should be kept that. 15 MR. : Okay. That's just practice? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 18 on the rounds and counts? 19 MR. : No. I guess I just, do 20 you think if the lieutenants that did the 21 rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any 22 exposure to the fact that Reyes was gone, and 23 should have they - when they did their rounds - 24 should have they known that, hey, this cell is 25 empty, Epstein's down at attorney conference, EFTA00116588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 and Reyes isn't here, so there's no one in that 2 cell. Should have they been, you know, should 3 have they known -? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : If you knew that on the count 7 slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he 8 was WAB, and you see Epstein downstairs, then 9 if you're paying attention, you would just -. 10 That's something you would have asked. Hey, we 11 got a cellmate for him yet? Who he's going 12 with. That type of thing. 13 MR. : Okay. So, those 14 lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in 15 the SHU, on that date, then they do have some 16 fault in this, that Reyes was never replaced? 17 MS. : I'm going to say yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Anything else on rounds and 20 counts? I'm moving onto cameras. 21 MR. : Perfect. 22 MR. : Okay. When did you learn 23 that the cameras were not working at the MCC? 24 MS. : August 8th. 25 MR. : August 8th. Okay. EFTA00116589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Can you tell us what 3 transpired? 4 MS. : I actually was reviewing the 5 cameras from the SIS office, with one of the 6 associate wardens. We were looking for an 7 inmate, to see what time he was released, a 8 cadre (Phonetic Sp. *00:50:30) inmate. We were 9 looking to see what time he was released 10 because I was trying to backtrack, because I 11 was going to interview the inmate, with an OIG 12 officer, about an incident. And I learned, 13 he's gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his 14 release date - which, he was scheduled to be 15 released - so, that made me go back to look to 16 see, well, let me see what time they released 17 him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he 18 got released, so we could get in touch with 19 that halfway house. So, we - myself and the 20 agent - was going to go to the halfway house, 21 to interview him. 22 And upon me going back to the cameras, I 23 said, wait a minute, we don't have no cameras. 24 I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on 25 several cameras, just to see if I could play it EFTA00116590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras 2 are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. 3 At that time, I called the communications shop, 4 and told them, I don't have no cameras up here. 5 You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A 6 gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm 7 going to come and check the camera system, 8 which he has the keys for, as well. And he did 9 check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is 10 not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going 11 to do overtime or something to that effect. To 12 fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the 13 captain. 14 MR. : Oh, you notified the 15 captain? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : That the cameras were 18 down? 19 MS. : That the cameras was down. 20 And I wrote a memo - a memorandum - as well. 21 MR. : Oh, if you have that, can 22 you please give it to us? 23 MS. : It's - I can't get in my home 24 drive - it would be on my home drive. 25 MR. : And when will you be able EFTA00116591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 to get access to that? 2 MS. : I'm out of work. So, I can't 3 access it. 4 MR. : Oh, we have heard that 5 you were back this week. Is that not the case? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Oh. 8 MS. : I'm not back this week. I 9 only came for the interview. I won't be back 10 for maybe, like, another two to three weeks. 11 MR. : When you come back in two 12 or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an 13 email, just as far as, like 14 MS. : I was going to say. If you 15 email me where to send it to, yes. 16 MR. : Fantastic. 17 MS. : So, at that point, I did type 18 the memo that the cameras was done. 19 MR. : This is on the 8th? 20 MS. : On the 8th. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Yes. And I assumed that the 23 gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras 24 that day. 25 MR. : So, and when you say "the EFTA00116592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 gentleman," are you talking about 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 4 person who came in and checked? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Is it true that he can 7 only obtain access to the camera room, if an 8 SIS employee actually lets him in? 9 MS. : Absolutely not. He has the 10 keys. 11 MR. : At that time, he did? 12 MS. : The first door, which is the 13 steel door with the Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 14 *00:53:21), I have to let him into that. 15 MR. : That's what I mean. So, 16 he can't actually get -- 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : -- into the SIS -- 19 MS. : Unless I -- 20 MR. : -- area 21 MS. -- let him into that part. 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : So, he had told you, on 25 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix EFTA00116593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it? 2 MS. : And do overtime to fix it. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because I let him into the 5 office, so he can go see what I was telling 6 him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. 7 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 8 that's the first time it was noticed, that 9 those cameras were down? 10 MS. : I can't say that that was the 11 first time that was noticed. 12 MR. : Because our investigation 13 shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those 14 cameras stopped recording. So, there is about 15 half of the cameras in the institution that 16 were recording, and half that weren't. They 17 were all live monitoring. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : But did you find anything 20 about that, or do you know anything about that? 21 MS. : No. No. It's not until I 22 was actually in the phone room, with the 23 agents, going through the cameras, that we 24 realized that they stopped recording. 25 MR. : Oh, so, you knew this on EFTA00116594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the 10th or something, you -- 2 MS. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- realized this -- 4 MS. : Yeah. It was -- 5 MR. : -- after the 6 investigation? 7 MS. Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : So, you had heard, later, 9 that at 7/29 -- 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : -- is when -? Okay. 12 MS. Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : So, you know that now, is 14 what you mean by -- 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : -- between 7/29 and 17 August 8th -- 18 MS. : The 10th. 19 MR. : -- you never -? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : So, the 8th was the first 24 time you found out? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 MR. : Do you remember if, prior 2 to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, 3 trying to rewind and watch? Because I would 4 think that's something you do kind of 5 regularly. 6 MS. : I can't remember if it was 7 myself, or the SIS Tech to be honest with 8 you, because normally, if it's an incident and 9 I need some video footage, I'll ask her to pull 10 the footage for me. You know? So, I can see 11 it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident 12 where we need to pull any camera footage. 13 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 14 remember if there was footage before that. 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Was there a Tech III, or 17 Tate, or something like that? 18 MS. : Phone monitor. 19 MR. : He was on -- 20 MS. : Yeah. III was the phone 21 monitor, which is a regular correctional 22 officers. 23 MR. : Oh, so, he's not an SIS 24 tech? 25 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. EFTA00116596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 MR. : All right. But would he 2 work in the SIS room? 3 MS. : In the phone room. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : He would be assigned, for the 6 quarter, to the phone room. 7 MR. : That's in the SIS office? 8 MS. : It's not in my office, but 9 it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It's kind 10 of, like, next door to SIS. 11 MR. : Is that the room where 12 the camera servers are located? 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. So, does he also 15 need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able 16 to do phone monitors? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : How does he get in and 19 out? 20 MS. : He has the phone monitor 21 keys, half the keyring for him to get into the 22 door. 23 MR. : To get into -- 24 MS. : I'm sorry. The key. 25 MR. : -- the primary SIS area? EFTA00116597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. So, do you know if 3 he was working on the 9th? 4 MS. : I don't know if he was 5 working because he hadn't been in the phone 6 room for some -- 7 MR. : Would he be listed on the 8 -? 9 MS. : -- let me look. Because they 10 were actually pulling him every day, re- 11 assigning him to different posts. So, he is 12 working, but they re-assigned him to another 13 post. 14 MR. : Okay. So, he wasn't - on 15 the 9th - he wasn't actually working? 16 MS. : If you see three Sally, 17 you'll see him there. 18 MR. : And would that be because 19 there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow 20 him into that room? 21 MS. : No. It would be because they 22 were short-staffed. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : And they just re-assigned him 25 to another post. EFTA00116598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 MR. : Okay. So, if says 2 that he wasn't able to fix the cameras on the 3 8th because he didn't have the proper 4 equipment, and then he couldn't gain access on 5 the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn't able 6 to get in on the 9th because neither you or the 7 tech were here. 8 MS. : He would be able to get in 9 because my keys don't go home with me. He 10 would have just had to ask the captain for 11 access to the SIS keys, and he would have been 12 able to go into the office. 13 MR. : And like you said, the 14 captain actually knew that the cameras were 15 down? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And you are positive of 18 that? 19 MS. : I'm positive. 20 MR. : Did you have a verbal 21 conversation with him about it? 22 MS. : I had a verbal conversation. 23 MR. : And can you recall what 24 that conversation entailed? 25 MS. : I remember stepping to his EFTA00116599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 office, which was right next door to mine, and 2 notifying him that the cameras was down, that 3 I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, 4 and I can't. Actually, I had one of the 5 associate wardens with me, as well. Who 6 happens to be his supervisor, so. 7 MR. : Who was that? 8 MS. : Associate Warden 9 MR. was there? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : It was me and her together, 13 looking at the cameras. 14 MR. : Okay. So, and it wasn't 15 Skipper-Scott, it was actually 16 MS. : No. It was me and AW 17 MR. : And that was with Captal 18 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. So then, the two 21 of them knew that the cameras were down? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : All right. And do you 24 know if they had any conversations with 25 about a need to get them back up? EFTA00116600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MS. : I don't know if they had a 2 separate conversation, but when I called Mr. 3 over to radio, Ms. was still 4 standing there with me in the office. And she 5 was there with me when he came up to check, 6 because we thought it was something that maybe 7 he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the 8 camera, and look for what we were looking for. 9 MR. : And when he mentioned the 10 whole I'll stay overtime, was she there when - 11 was there - when he mentioned that he 12 would stay to work overtime? 13 MS. : I can't remember because I 14 know he had to get in touch with his boss 15 first. 16 MR. : Oh, okay. So -- 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- so, told us 19 that he was approved to work overtime on 20 Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do 21 you know who he would have contacted, in order 22 to get that approval to work overtime? 23 MS. : I don't know. I would assume 24 his boss, which was Mr. 25 MR. : Now, is out, and EFTA00116601 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 he has acting in his place, , and 2 and both say, he didn't 3 talk to me about working overtime. Is there 4 anyone else that he would have been -? Well, 5 because you said that he told you he was going 6 to work overtime. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Would you be an approving 9 official for that? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : Would be an 12 approving official, though? 13 MS. : I'm not sure if she was over 14 facilities, that department. So, I'm - no - 15 I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Okay. So, how did he 17 know he would be able to work overtime to fix 18 it? 19 MS. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You don't know? He just 21 said I'll work overtime. 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So, I'm assuming 24 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 25 8th, that you learned of this incident, since EFTA00116602 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 his shift typically ends at 2:00 p.m.? 2 MS. : Yeah. It was a little after 3 1:00 p.m. 4 MR. : Okay. And that was the 5 8th. But again, on the 8th was the first that 6 you found out the cameras -- 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : -- were down? Do you 9 know if there is anyway anyone could have 10 tampered with that system, to intentionally 11 take the cameras offline? 12 MS. : I don't know. I don't know 13 because nobody normally goes into - with the 14 service are - besides him. Or there's one more 15 communication tech, Mr. 16 MR. : Was he there, though, at 17 the time? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : So -- 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : -- it was just - at the 22 time - it was only . Correct? 23 MS. : Yes. It was just 24 MR. : So, who would have had 25 access to that server room? In the MCC as a EFTA00116603 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 whole, who could have had access to that server 2 room, and potentially taken it offline? 3 MS. : I don't know who would 4 intentionally take it off, but I can tell you 5 the access would have been us, from the SIS 6 shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. 7 and Mr. And I'm not sure if their key 8 if that key is on, in the other key ring. 9 MR. : So, is it really only the 10 two of you, then, with SIS, then also the phone 11 monitor individual, III. Is it 12 MS. : 13 MR. : Is that 14 MS. 15 MR. : Just 16 MS. : I don't think Mr. III had the 17 key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my 18 ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in 19 there, as well. So, I would always lock the 20 door back, because we don't allow an officer to 21 just walk where the server is at. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : So -. 24 MR. : So, the server, actually, 25 was in a locked door? EFTA00116604 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : So, really, III didn't 3 have access to it? 4 MS. : Right. 5 MR. : But the tech would have? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Yes. She would. 9 MR. : So, yourself, the tech, 10 and 11 MS. _. . . 12 MR. : -- were really the only 13 three people? 14 MS. : Mr. 15 MR. : Well, wasn't here 16 at the time, though. Correct? 17 MS. : Probably Mr. . I think 18 it's on his key ring. 19 MR. : But - but just to clear 20 that up - was not -- 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : wasn't here a- 23 the time, though? 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : Is that right? EFTA00116605 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I -- 2 MR. : Oh, you don't know? 3 MS. I really don't know. 4 MR. : Oh, okay. No. That's 5 why I was asking you. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : My understanding 8 MS. : I don't know. 9 MR. : -- was that 10 the only tech at the time. 11 MS. : Okay. I don't know if 12 was in the building, but I know is who I 13 dealt with at the time. 14 MR. : Okay. And then, 15 would have? 16 MS. : I think it may be on Mr. 17 key because he's the facilities 18 manager. But again, I'm not sure what keys 19 they have. 20 MR. : What about the captain? 21 MS. : I don't know. 22 MR. : Now, when you -- 23 MS. : I don't know what's on his 24 keyrings. 25 MR. : -- now, you say you don't EFTA00116606 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 ever leave the institution with these keys, did 2 you give them to the captain, or where are the 3 keys? 4 MS. : No. They're located in the 5 control center, behind a locked box. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : So, I have to give them the 8 key to open my locked box in order for me to 9 retrieve my SIS keys. 10 MR. : Okay. And then, does 11 anybody else have that key, to open your locked 12 box, to get those keys? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : What are -? You said the 15 captain does, though? I thought you said he 16 could have gone to the captain to get the keys. 17 MR. : He can't get into my 18 locked box. He has his own locked box. 19 MR. : So, how would -. I think 20 you -. I thought you said that the captain 21 could have allowed to get in -? 22 MS. : He would have had them 23 allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. 24 MR. : They would have had to -- 25 MS. : If it was another -- EFTA00116607 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 MR. : -- actually break it? 2 MS. : -- they would have to 3 actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, 4 all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if 5 it's an emergency, you would have to break the 6 glass to retrieve our keys. 7 MR. : And in this case, you 8 believe that would be an emergency, that they 9 were to break the glass to fix the cameras on 10 the 9th? 11 MS. : Normally, yes. 12 MR. : So, you think that that 13 would have been appropriate action, to break 14 it? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And then, the 17 captain does not actually have a key to get 18 into the SIS office, though? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Does anyone else? 21 or -? 22 MS. : No. I think it's only on the 23 SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we 24 didn't have one at the time. 25 MR. : Okay. But you're certain EFTA00116608 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 that and , on the 8th, were aware 2 that there was a camera issue, and not 3 recording? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you know if they 6 notified the warden? 7 MS. : I don't recall. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Because I notified the 10 warden. And he seemed a little -- 11 MR. : Notified the warden, 12 when? 13 MS. : -- on the 10th. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : On the 10th. Once I came in, 16 once the incident happened. And me and him was 17 having a conversation, and he was saying, and 18 there's no cameras working, and I said, what do 19 you mean there's no cameras working? I said, 20 was supposed to fix the cameras on the 21 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, 22 what are you talking about? And I said, the 23 cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I 24 notified that the cameras was down. And 25 I said, I wrote a memo. EFTA00116609 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 MR. : And what happened with 2 your memo? Who gets that memo? 3 MS. : My memo, I usually give it to 4 the captain. 5 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 in this case, did you give it to the captain? 7 MS. : I did give it to him. I 8 might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I 9 would have to look at my email. I might have 10 emailed it, as well. 11 MR. : And would have you -? 12 MS. : And I might have emailed it 13 to Again, I can't remember -- 14 MR. : Can you -- 15 MS. exactly who I sent it to. 16 MR. : -- you know, when you 17 come in, can you check your sent box, and see 18 if on the - you would have done this on the 19 8th, though? 20 MS. : It would have been on the 21 8th. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : Yes, 24 MR. : So, you would have - it 25 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to EFTA00116610 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him? 2 MS. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : And emailed, or both? Or 4 I mean, one or the other? 5 MS. : Normally, because he's next 6 door, I would hand deliver him stuff. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : To be honest. And sometime, 9 I would email it to him if his door is closed, 10 and I don't see him. Or don't know if I'm 11 going to see him before I leave. 12 MR. : Okay. But you are 13 positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, 14 one way or the other? 15 MS. : Yeah. I'm almost - though, 16 I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I 17 know I verbally told him that the cameras was 18 down. 19 MR. : Are your 100 percent sure 20 that there was a memo, though? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : But you may - when you 23 say you're not 100 percent sure - when else 24 would have you potentially done that memo? 25 MS. : No. I did the memo on the EFTA00116611 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 8th. 2 MR. : Oh. So, that's where, 3 when you say you're not 100 percent sure 4 MS. : If I -- 5 MR. : -- right, you're not -- 6 MS. emailed it to him, I'm 7 saying to you. 8 MR. : -- but you're 100 percent 9 sure you provided it to him? 10 MS. : Yes. And I notified him, 11 word of mouth, that the cameras was down. 12 MR. : Okay, and that - sorry - 13 that's where I just want to make sure I'm 14 clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you 15 gave him that memo. You just don't know if you 16 gave it to him, either by hand -- 17 MS. : Or email. 18 MR. : -- or email. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : But it's definitely, he 23 got it? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Perfect. Okay. But EFTA00116612 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 regardless, both and knew -- 2 MS. : That the cameras 3 MR. -- verbally, and 4 knew specifically, because she was 5 MS. : Because she was with me. 6 MR. : -- involved. 7 MS. : Right. She was with me. 8 Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And was she 10 involved, at all, with those discussions with 11 12 MS. : I can't remember if she 13 stayed with me. I think she walked away. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Because we couldn't get what 16 we needed, as far as footage. 17 MR. : Were they both under the 18 impression that was actually working on 19 the camera system? 20 MS. : Hmm. 21 MR. : Like, did they ask, well, 22 are you going to take care of this, or anything 23 like that? 24 MS. : No. I don't remember them 25 speaking to . I just know -- EFTA00116613 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : No. When you verbally 2 spoke with , though, and about the 3 situation, did you say, I notified , he 4 said he'll take care of it, or anything like 5 that? 6 MS. : Yes. Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So, you did tell 8 them that, that he would be fixing it. 9 MS. : Yeah. Well, she was on the 10 phone -. She was standing next to me when I 11 was on the phone, talking to Mr. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : What about the captain, 15 though? Did he know? 16 MS. : No. He wasn't near me. 17 MR. : Did he ask, like, is 18 going to fix it, or anything like that? 19 MS. : No. He didn't -- 20 MR. : Did he say anything? 21 Well, what -- 22 MS. : -- he didn't ask. 23 MR. : -- what was his response 24 to you telling him that the cameras were down? 25 MS. : He asked me, did I notify EFTA00116614 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 them, and I said, yes. 2 MR. : That was my question. 3 I'm sorry. 4 MS. : Okay. 5 MR. : So -- 6 MS. : I apologize. 7 MR. : -- so, he did know that 8 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- was notified? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 13 MR. : Was the captain surprised the 14 cameras were down? 15 MS. : I don't know if he was 16 surprised because it's not, like, it's not 17 normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? 18 It's our job to notify who we need to notify to 19 bring them back up. But 20 MR. : Do you recall his reaction? 21 Like, did he state, oh, yeah, it must be fixed 22 today? Make sure takes care of it. 23 What was his exact reaction to that 24 notification? 25 MS. : I can't recall. EFTA00116615 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : I can't recall. 3 MR. : And did ever come 4 back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that 5 day, on the 8th? 6 MS. : No. He told me that on the 7 10th. 8 MR. : What did he tell you on 9 the 10th? 10 MS. : Once I walked into the 11 Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. 12 I don't know if he was working that day. But 13 he was there, and when the door opened, you 14 know, my response was, well, what happened to 15 the cameras? And he said, oh, that's what I'm 16 here for today. Which was two days later. I'm 17 here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled 18 him, and put him on the post, or something to 19 that effect. And I said, but you told me you 20 was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, 21 like, I couldn't fix them on the 8th. I can't 22 remember why he said he couldn't. But I think 23 he responded to me before I could even ask the 24 question, once he saw me because I was a little 25 taken back that the cameras were down. Because EFTA00116616 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 2 8th. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Can I ask you, when you guys 5 were - you and AW - were reviewing 6 footage, and you realized it wasn't working, 7 you called What was reaction 8 to finding out the cameras were not working? 9 MS. : He said he was going to come 10 down and take a look at it. 11 MR. : Did he mention it was an 12 ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware 13 of it, or was that the first he was hearing 14 about it? Do you recall? 15 MS. : No. He didn't -- 16 MR. : No? 17 MS. -- he didn't say. He just 18 said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at 19 it. 20 MR. : And then, he came down, both 21 of you guys were in the room, and he tried to - 22 23 MS. : No. I wasn't in there with 24 him. I just opened the door so he could get 25 in. And he went in, and he came back, and he EFTA00116617 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made 2 a phone call, or he walked away one, and he 3 said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, 4 tonight. 5 MR. : And he did specifically 6 say "tonight"? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And if he did stay, stay 10 overtime, that would be on his webTA? 11 MR. : Well -- 12 MS. : It should be. 13 MR. : It should be. 14 MR. : -- well, no, we know he 15 didn't. But -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- as far as, if both you 19 and the other SIS tech left, would he have been 20 able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the 21 camera room, to be able to work on it? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Yes. Because it's been times 25 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go EFTA00116618 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 home. And the captain would say, okay, well, 2 leave your keys with me, you know, so he could 3 have access. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : To the room. 6 MR. : So, when you left that 7 day, did you check back in with at all, 8 to say, like 9 MS. : I sure didn't. 10 MR. : -- hey. You did not? 11 MS. : I didn't. 12 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 what he did after you told him I'm going to 14 take care of? Do you know what he did? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : No. Did he stay in the 17 room, though? Did he -? 18 MS. : No. He left out the room. 19 He left out the room. 20 MR. : All right. And then, did 21 you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? 22 MS. : I would have left probably 23 after her, because she leaves at 2:00. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. What time? 25 MS. : I can't remember what EFTA00116619 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 happened that day. 2 MR. : And what -? 3 MS. : Normally, I'm there between 4 2:00 -. More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. 5 MR. : Okay. So, if you both 6 left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he 7 was coming back that day to fix it, how would 8 have he done that? 9 MS. : Because I would have spoken 10 to the captain and said, hey, needs to 11 get in the com room. 12 MR. : Do you remember, did that 13 conversation occur? 14 MS. : I honestly don't remember. 15 MR. : Okay. You don't 16 remember. 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Nice Vision has that 20 administrative feature. Nice Vision is the 21 camera -- 22 MS. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- system, right? That 24 administrative feature is called Supervision. 25 Do you recall that? EFTA00116620 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Hmm. 2 MR. : Well -. 3 MR. : There was a couple 4 different -- 5 MR. : Name 6 MR. : -- names, for different 7 applications, but there is one application 8 called Supervision, and that you might be able 9 to log into Supervision and see if the recorder 10 errors are actually recording. Do you know if 11 you got access to that? 12 MS. : No. I have - mine is SIS 13 lieutenant access, so. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Who had administrative access 16 to the camera system? 17 MS. : Meaning that Supervision? 18 MR. : Supervision. Who could go 19 in, control the cameras, or take cameras 20 offline? And mess with the cameras. 21 MS. : I don't know. I would say 22 computer services have access, and probably, 23 would say, facilities managers should have 24 Supervision access. 25 MR. : But not the SIS Shop? EFTA00116621 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So -- 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. and is 6 basically who you're saying? 7 MS. : I don't know. I don't even 8 know if would have Supervision access 9 because I don't know. I would think, if 10 you say Supervision, it would be upper 11 MR. : Yeah. Supervision 12 doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, 13 like, somebody in the -. It's a title for the 14 app. So, like, there's an app that says, like, 15 you know, these people are granted access to be 16 able to review and rewind, but then there's 17 another app -- 18 MS. : Oh. 19 MR. that allows you to 20 actually check to see if things are running 21 properly, and recording, and it's just called 22 Supervision. 23 MS. : Oh, okay. 24 MR. : That doesn't mean 25 MS. : Then that would be -- EFTA00116622 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : -- that you're a 2 supervisor. 3 MS. : -- that would be - I would 4 say - that would be because that's his 5 area, the cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 7 anybody else would have the ability to do 8 things like that, to take, you know, recorders 9 on or offline, or to at least check their 10 status with the camera system? 11 MS. : I don't know. If it is, it 12 would be facilities shop. 13 MR. : So, but primarily, 14 would be the person? 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Not you, though? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And in no way, while you 21 were Although, the only thing that would be 22 able to tip you off, if things weren't 23 recording, is if you started trying to rewind, 24 and it wasn't rewinding. 25 MS. : If I tried to rewind, it EFTA00116623 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It 2 would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know 3 that it's a problem, even if it's not working 4 at all. Or something is wrong with it. 5 MR. : Did that - on the 8th, 6 when you were looking - were there any red X's? 7 MS. : I don't recall if -. Because 8 it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different 9 places. So, I don't recall there being a red 10 X. 11 MR. : But just to -- 12 MS. : On any of them. 13 MR. circle back. What 14 tipped you off was with you and trying to 15 go back and review? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And that's where you said 18 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : -- why can't I do it? 21 MS. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Gotcha. 23 MR. : And prior to that day, you 24 don't recall when the last time you guys tried 25 to review it was, right? EFTA00116624 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 MS. : No. I don't recall. 2 MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a 3 little bit. It had been a little while? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the 6 cameras? 7 MR. : I think that's all. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's great information, 10 that we didn't know that before. I didn't know 11 that that's how we found out that the cameras 12 were offline -- 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- was basically your 15 review. How often should have been 16 going in to check those servers to make sure 17 that they were online? 18 MS. : Daily. 19 MR. : So then, would you know 20 if he was? 21 MS. : I can't say he was checking 22 daily. I know that he was up there quite 23 often. But I can't even say that he was 24 checking the cameras because, one I let him in, 25 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you EFTA00116625 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying 2 what are you doing, or, so -- 3 MR. : And I know we're talk -- 4 MS. : -- but daily, they should 5 have checked. 6 MR. : I know we're talking a 7 long time ago now, but do you remember, prior 8 to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I 9 think the information that we have suggests 10 that the camera servers went down on the actual 11 July 29th -- 12 MS. : Hmm. 13 MR. : -- of 2019. So, there 14 is, like, almost a - more than a -- 15 MS. : Week. 16 MR. : -- week -- 17 MS. : Yeah. Yeah. 18 MR. do you know if he was 19 actually going in, at that time, for that week 20 period, checking in on the servers at all, at 21 this -? 22 MS. : I know he entered the area. 23 But I don't know if he checked the servers 24 while he were back there. But I know he was 25 entering the area. EFTA00116626 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : What else is in that area? 3 MS. : Just the servers in there. 4 And ink cartridges. At the top. 5 MR. : And that's on the third 6 floor? 7 MS. : It's on the third floor. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then, nothing else is 10 stored. Is there evidence stored in there? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : For some reason, we were 13 under the impression that SIS stored evidence 14 there. 15 MS. : There's no evidence in there. 16 It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before 17 I was born. 18 MR. : And I think said 19 that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and 20 there's, like, some evidence, some old 21 evidence, or evidence there. 22 MS. : Not where the servers are. 23 But it's some file cabinets, where the servers 24 are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS 25 cases from -- EFTA00116627 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. a long time ago. 4 MR. : So, next topic? 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Okay. So, what was your 7 understanding about why Epstein was not in his 8 assigned cell? Were you aware that he was 9 when they found him - and he was not in the 10 cell that he was assigned to in the system? 11 MS. : No. I learned that later on, 12 that -- 13 MR. : What did you learn? 14 MS. : -- that he was keyed to one 15 cell, but he was actually living in another 16 cell. So, I don't know where they changed his 17 cell at. 18 MR. : And is this because the cell 19 rotations that happen in the SHU? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : And who would have been 22 responsible to make sure that this, once the 23 cell rotation happened -. 24 MR. : That's not the reason. 25 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you EFTA00116628 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 learn how that happened? How he was keyed into 2 one, and not in another? 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear 5 -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, 6 he was initially placed into one cell, when he 7 came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, 8 but then, the CPAP machine didn't actually 9 reach into there, so they had to switch him to 10 another? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : No? So, you never heard 13 anything about that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. : So -. 17 MR. : Who would have been 18 responsible for making those changes in the 19 system, to make sure that he's in the actual 20 cell where he's supposed to be there? 21 MS. : Normally, the SHU OIC make 22 the changes. 23 MR. : So, it wouldn't be the 24 lieutenant? It would be the OIC? 25 MS. : Yeah. It would be the OIC. EFTA00116629 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 2 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 3 there one overall OIC? 4 MS. : There is one for each shift. 5 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 6 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 7 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 8 responsible for that change? 9 MS. : No. Whatever shift he was 10 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 11 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 12 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 13 way for us to know when that occurred? When 14 they actually moved him from one cell to 15 another cell? 16 MS. : No. The only way you would 17 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 18 rewind and see. 19 MR. : To see, you know -- 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- when that actually 22 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 23 working -- 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : -- from 7/29, and this EFTA00116630 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 happened on 7/30. There's no way, at this 2 point? 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Go ahead. 7 MR. : Next level? 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : Cell searches. How often are 10 they supposed to do cell searches in the SHU? 11 MS. : You're taking me back-back. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MS. : There is - I want to say they 14 have to do a set amount. I don't know if it's 15 three or five. It was five when I was an 16 officer. Per shift. They should be random 17 cell searches. 18 MR. : Is it of the general area, or 19 actual cells that they're supposed to be 20 searching? 21 MS. : Actual cell searches. 22 MR. : And is that five -? 23 MS. : With the exception of the 24 midnight shift. They usually do the general 25 areas. EFTA00116631 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : But there should have been 2 cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five 3 times? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Per shift? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : On day watch -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- and night watch? 10 MS. : No. On day watch -- 11 MR. : Day watch and evening 12 MS. : -- an evening watch. 13 MR. watch. 14 MR. : All right. Well, 15 evening. Evening watch, right? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, if they're doing 18 those, is it just as important to log those 19 searches into the system? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : So, if there is no cell 22 searches actually being logged into the system, 23 on those dates, is that a problem? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. And would you EFTA00116632 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 consider that, like, a policy violation? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : If it's n