DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE 3 1 MR. All right. The recorder 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, lune 15, 2021 and 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 4 , and I am a Senior Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 7 And these are my credentials. 8 9 MR. Okay. MR. : This interview with 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 11 - is it Jermaine? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. , is being 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jeri. 21 Also resent is DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 and Mr. . This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 name? To start, a ain, I am DO] OIG Senior if, Agent, • MR. This is DOJ Special Agent : This is BOP employee, MR. : All right. Thank you, everyone. And this is an official DO] investigation surrounding the circumstances of Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? MR. ..es. MR. : Great. We're just going to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. I'm going to read it for the record. It says, United States Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00111830 6 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure and security failure. This 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 11 It says, "I understand the Warnings and 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 20 copy of this. 21 MR. : This isn't what I wanted. 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 24 of the Inspector General Specialliiiii. And I 25 am going to print my name. Mr. , do you 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mind just printing your name where it says Employee's Name? Sorry. : All right. • Right below it. Thank you, sir. And , can you sign that as the MR. MR. MR. Special Agent witness? MR. : Yes. This is Special Agent iiiiiiiiiined as a witness. MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG form? MR. ..es. MR. : Great. Before starting, I would like you place you under oath. Can you just raise your right hand? Mr. , do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth durino this interview? MR. MR. just show me to make sure MR. MR. record, I am : I do. Thank you, sir. Can you your credentials, for the record, that -- : Here you go, sir. -- all right. For the looking at the U.S. Department of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials of Mr. . It says that he is the Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. Thank you, sir. MR. ..kay. MR. : All right. And what is your current home address? MR. MR. your current MR. MR. level of education? MR. : I have three years of college. MR. And where did you go to college? MR. : I went to - I actually have my Associates Degree at Northwestern State UniversitiiIIIIIIII MR. : And where is that located? MR. : That's going to be in Thank you. And what is cell phone number? : It is And what is your highest 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 Natchitoches, Louisiana. MR. : Great. And what was that Associate's decree in? It was in Social Work. Okay. Great. And then, MR. MR. what year? MR. I believe it was 2012 or '13. MR. Great. Thanks. Did you have any employment prior to the BOP? MR. : Yes. I had worked almost two years for the Colorado Department of Corrections. MR. Okay. MR. rAs a Correctional Officer. : And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten years - well, nine years, 11 months in the United States Arm . MR. : Awesome. Thanks for your service. MR. InMn-hmm. MR. : When did you work as a Correctional Officer for two years? MR. : In Colorado? MR. Yes. MR. : I believe the dates were from EFTA00111831 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2005. MR. Okay. Great. And then, you said you were in the - did you say the Army? MR. Mies. MR. : And what was your rank in the Army? MR. MR. MR. MR. I was a Sergeant. • Honorable discharge? Yes. • When you left, what was your primiiiiiisponsibility? MR. : Basically, at that time, I was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical surveyor. MR. Where did MR. MR. MR. Okay. And what was that? ou say? : Sir? . The topographical? . It's a topographical surveyor MR. : Oh, a surveyor. MR. E.- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) surveyor. Right. 1 MR. Okay. Perfect. And 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-S? 3 MR. E-5. 4 MR. E-5. All right. When 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 Prisons? 7 8 9 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 MR. : I believe it was March of 13 2006. 14 MR. Okay. We don't have to 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 MR. : Right. I started as a five, 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline MR. : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 11/27/2005. MR. Great. And when did you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. MR. : All right. Great. And is it correct that you used to work at the MCC in New York City? MR. : That is correct. MR. : All right. And what were your positions when you were at the MCC? MR. : 'ACC, I was the Captain. MR. : Okay. And from what dates weriiiiiithe Captain? MR. : I was the Captain from September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all the way until June 25 of 2020. MR. Okay. Great. And then, was that our first assignment as a Captain? MR. : No. That was my second. MR. What was your first assignment as a Captain? MR. : My first assignment as a Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC Brooklyn. MR. : Okay. And then you got promoted, and went to MCC? MR. : Yes. Yes. MR. And what does the MCC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 stand for? MR. : The Metropolitan Correctional Center. MR. Perfect. And located at 150 Park Row, New York, New York? MR. : That is correct. MR. Thank you, sir. As a Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor when you were at the MCC? MR. : It would be, at that point, at that time we was transitioning. MR. Okay. MR. : So, I would, normally, I would answer to two people, which would be the AW of Custody, which, at that time, was MR. Okay. MR. : However, we was transitioning when that incident happened. It was was the AW over Custody at that time. MR. : All right. So, when you are talking about that time, are you talking about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? MR. : That is correct. MR. Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00111832 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 of was still the AW in charge of Custody at that time? MR. MR. MR. : No. . She was not? Okay. : No. Basically, what it was - again - with the areas of responsibility had changed, ri p for -- MR. MR. that week, Ms. Okay. -- to this incident. So, was going to be - even though hers responsibilities had changed as the AW over Custody, and Warden N'DiayeN'Dia had appointed - or instructed - that Ms. IIIII would then take over the responsibilities. But however, she was supposed to o on annual leave. MR. Okay. MR. : So, at that time, Ms. was actually there, as far as, she was still in that capacity when the incident ha ened. MR. : Okay. MR. : However, again, the previous question that you asked, normally, as my responsibilities, I would notify the AW over 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 Custody, and also, I would have conversations Okay. : So, it would just depends on what the situation may be. So, if there was instances where I would run things through the chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was times that I would take direction directly from the Warden. MR. : Okay. As far as, though, in this instance, if, you know, being that August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the first person ou contacted when ou were -- MR. : Was MR. : -- correct. And that was because the other AW was out. Is that what you were sayik. MR. : My belief is that she was on annual leave which was stated -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- that we had closed out on that Friday, that she would be starting annual leave. MR. : Okay. But the other AW was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? 15 1 MR. ..es. 2 MR. : Oka . Which ou 'ust 3 said was - you went with 4 because she was on? 5 6 MR. That's . right. MR. : Okay. Have you since 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 8 correct? 9 MR. : Well, what I realized is 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 14 the AW 15 MR. : All right. How do you 16 spell her last name? 17 MR. : Ms. M? 18 MR. . Yes. 19 MR. : A-D-G-E. 20 MR. Perfect. Thank you. All 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DO] 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 24 of 2019? 25 MR. : That is correct. 16 1 MR. Great. I'm just going to 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 to their conversations with you. 4 MR. Ed -hmm. 5 MR. : We want to just go over 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 clarification on. 9 MR. ..bsolutely. 10 MR. : So, I'm just going to 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 MR. ..orrect. 14 MR. : All right. So, " 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. : "In 2014, he was 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 sorry. 23 MR. : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 in between there. 25 MR. Yeah, yeah. EFTA00111833 17 18 1 MR. Yeah. M Right. 2 MR. : So, it says, "In 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 6 his current position, where he oversees 7 security for the entire building." 8 MR. : Well, yeah. There was a 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 13 Pollock. 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. rnd then, from FCC Pollock, : 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 19 MCC. 20 MR. : Okay. So, they have - 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Okay. It says, " 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 MR. ..orrect. 6 MR. : Okay. "And it has 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 Lieutenants. 17 MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. " also sits on 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 the BOP." 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 MR. : Correct. MR. . "Among others, is responsible for the Special Housing Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant IIII." Is that correct? MR. Correct. MR. : "As an Administrative Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying whoever was Acting in the Administrative Lieutenant -- MR. MR. : Capacity? • -- position? MR. : No, I wasn't. Basically, Administrative duties. The Administrative duties falls under the appointed SHU Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to be done daily, within the unit. Not just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is done. MR. Okay. 20 1 MR. : All security protocols are 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 accountabiiiiiiiiiihe inmates in the unit. 8 MR. : So, I guess what I was 9 etting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 IIII. Was there a specific person that was the 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 MR. : Yes. The Administrative 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 MR. : And do you happen to know 15 how to spell that last name? 16 MR. It's . 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 was that? 20 MR. : Which was the Lieutenant 21 (Phonetic Siiiiii:17:10). 22 MR. And , common 23 spelling? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00111834 21 1 Activities Lieutenants". 2 MR. : Which are on the day of the 3 incident? 4 MR. Yeah. And would you like 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 6 August 10th? 7 MR. Hmm-mm. 8 MR. No? Okay. Do you know 9 who it was? 10 MR. : So, I believe the morning 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 13 just said her name. 14 MR. I can show you this. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. So, I'm showing you a 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. -- 2019. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. And you can keep them in 24 front of ou for the -- 25 MR. : Okay. 22 1 MR. -- for the interview, 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 people - jiff" can reference the two. 4 MR. : Right. All right. So it 5 iir shere, it would have been la 6 ivould have been the 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 2019. 9 MR. 10 MR. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 . Perfect. 13 from? 14 MR. : At that time, the shift they 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 MR. That is correct. 20 MR. : And then, I'm assuming 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 Correct? 25 MR. : That is - yeah - that was the And is it ME? And what times did she work 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which was IIII. Lieutenant IIII. He informed me - or I guess he became aware of the incident, I believe, at 6:30 that morning. MR. : Okay. And so, I already asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The Operations Lieutenant and the Activities Lieutenant are responsible for day to day operations and maintaining order for three shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility in the event of an emergency incident, such as fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there a - during these instances - was there an Emergency Pre aredness Lieutenant? MR. : Yes. MR. Who was that? MR. : I believe it was Lieutenant MR. MR. MR. . Lieutenant IIII? Okay. Mm-hmm. Was Lieutenant El off that day, thou MR. : Lieutenant IIII was, I believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU 24 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 MR. . Okay. 3 MR. : They worked Monday through 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 MR. Okay. 6 MR. ro, Lieutenant was on : 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 drill -- 10 MR. • Okay. 11 MR. -- that he would attend. 12 MR. : Do you know if he was on 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 But was on the 9th? 16 MR. Mat me see here. 17 MR. : And you can just say, was 18 he on the schedule? 19 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 Friday. 24 MR. : All right. So, that 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00111835 25 26 1 Correct? 2 MR. : That is correct. He was not 3 there, no. 4 MR. : Great. And would his 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 7 he's gones_gf_is -? 8 MR. 'I'll': Normally, due to our staffing 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 20 assigned. 21 MR. : And that post, like you 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, Saturday. Great. 25 MR. : No, it's not. 1 MR. : All right. " 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 criteria, a ropriate housing varies." 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : All right. " 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 18 MR. Correct. M MR. : "Dunn the first 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 accommodated with water, visits to the 27 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 4 MR. : Yes. So, most days, from the 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 7 until it closed. 8 MR. : All right. And that's 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 13 Monday -- 14 MR. No. That's 15 -- MR. : -- that's seven days a 16 week? 17 MR. that's seven days a week. 18 MR. : All right. So, was it 19 almost ever day? 20 MR. : Every day. 21 MR. : Okay. And was his food 22 brought to him there, then? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. Okay. How would he 25 obtain food? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 MR. : Now, as far as food, I know - and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. MR. : Okay. MR. : They're provided water. They're provided to go to the bathroom. The inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. However, I believe that he was offered meals from the vendin machine. I'm not sure. MR. : Okay. MR. : I can't remember as far as - because I didn't remember there was an issue with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, or to address it. I just can't remember -- MR. Sure. MR. -- what was done. MR. Would the Attorneys be allowed to bring him in food? MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : No. No, no, no, no, no. No? No. Okay. : No. No. No. No. Outside food would not have been allowed. MR. Okay. EFTA00111836 29 1 MR. : So, I can't tell you if he 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 7 I can't remember. 8 MR. : Sure. All right. That's 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 11 that you made with Epstein? 12 MR. : The third one. So, that 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 16 MR. 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 17 MR. : 8:00 p.m. 18 MR. Okay. 19 MR. : Correct. So, I was actually 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Unit Manager. MR. MR. Mr. MR. 30 . Okay. And who was that? : Which that was, I believe, Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) • Right. MR. : At which time, I, you know, I said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed that when the inmate - we would reasonably attempt to always facilitate a phone call for the inmate, especially while him being housed in the Special Housin Unit. So, I said to the Unit Manager, Mr. , I said, Mr. are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, well, are you going to be able to monitor the call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I got no problem with that. I said, well, I don't have a problem. Just make sure that you follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, it has to be monitored by staff, and the number, and who they're talking to has to be placed in a log. 31 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. ro, I said, make sure that 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 5 institution. 6 MR. : All riiiiiiiSo, this 7 conversation happened with , in front of 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 MR. ..es, it did. 10 MR. : Okay. And that's the 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 13 MR. ..es. 14 MR. : Was there a certain line 15 that they should have used? 16 MR. : Yes. It's a secure line. 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 19 that's just for inside of the institution 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 22 MR. Would that be called a 23 legal line? 24 MR. : Yeah. It would be just an 25 out. This would be a out, out. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 MR. : Okay. MR. : Out line. MR. : Sure. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And they're not recorded MR. : Right. MR. • -- and that's why you said make sure that it's -- MR. : Yes. MR. • -- and did you -- MR. : Correct. MR. : -- did you tell him, at all, to document what was -? MR. : Yes. I told him to ensure that he is present, that - the protocol is, because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make sure that you're present at the phone call. I said, make sure that it's logged. And when you dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, stay on the line and said, he says, well, I want to call my Attorney. Who was your Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. When they answer the phone, I said, this is MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00111837 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what is your can log it. MR. : Okay. MR. rnd the time that it's logged. And then, you give the phone to the inmate, and then you sit there while they're on the phone. MR. And do you know if that was done? MR. Again, I don't know. MR. : You don't know? MR. : I just ensured. That's it. If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I said, are you going to SHU? And are you going to be able to monitor phone calls? MR. But you don't know if -- He didn't say yes. -- he wrote up anything? I don't know what he did. Okay. I just ensured that I told MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. him. MR. IIIIII::: Sure. MR. What needed to be done. MR. : And what would typically 1 2 3 4 5 6 it. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. MR. : That phone call? MR. : Sure. MR. Or that log? MR. : Like, after he documented MR. : It would be maintained, just in a log. MR. Okay. MR. : It wouldn't be brought for anyone's review. You know? It would just be, hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And then, I can tell you, and look, when he was given a call. MR. : So, it goes into a specific E stein file? MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It goes into a book for monitored calls, for all the inmates, and legal calls. MR. : For all inmates. So, not just Epstein. It would be all -- MR. : That is correct. MR. . -- inmates? Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 MR. : It would be a green logbook. You know, and it would have the name of the inmate, and who they called, the number, the time. I don't know if the duration is on there. But it will the person who also monitored the call. So, you know, all that information. But it wasn't something, like, a form that was filled out, and then it was placed in the inmate's file. MR. : Sure. MR. Or central file. MR. : Sure. MR. No. It wasn't like that. MR. : And do you know if that log in the book was filled out? MR. M. don't know. MR. : You don't know. Okay. When you met with Epstein on that night, how was his demeanor? MR. : It was fine. He was cheerful. MR. MR. He was cheerful. : You know, he didn't look disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I said, did you have a good visit? And he said, yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all right, man. MR. : Okay. MR. You know? MR. : No cause for concern? MR. : No, because every time we had that interaction, it was always pleasant. It was neverliiiiiiiii MR. : Okay. It says, " was made aware of the possibility that Epstein would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's arrival. was not present when inmate Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was fit for general population, and was ultimately placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places inmates under three categories of close supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological observation. And three: suicide watch." MR. MR. MR. : Mm-hmm. Is that all correct? : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00111838 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 MR. Okay. So, who made the decision to place him in the Special Housing Unit, specifically, and why? MR. : Okay. So, basically, the rationale for placement of the inmate in the Special Housing Unit would have been a decision ultimately made by the Warden. They would have took the criteria of the inmate. They would have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? You know, what would be the likelihood of him being endangered if he would be placed in general population? His culpability. Can he cope while being inside of a general housing unit? So, the determinations was made between Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. And who was the Warden at MR. that time? MR. : It was Mr. MR. And do you know how to spell that last name? MR. : It would bell- MR. • Apostrophe. MR. -- apostrophe, MR. Thank you, sir. Are 38 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 MCC? 3 MR. : There is only one secured 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 MR. 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 MR. • -- Ten South. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. : And Ten South is for, I 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 MR. Okay. And what is SAMS 20 stand for? 21 MR. : I believe - I can't remember. 22 MR. Okay. But is it, like, 23 S-A-M-S? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, Okay. Not -- But however, we do have -- -- Ten South (Phonetic 39 1 though? 2 MR. : It is an acronym. 3 MR. : Okay. And that is not 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 5 Attorney General -- 6 8 MR. Y W eah. 7 MR. : -- is that -? Okay. MR. : That's going to be - yeah. 9 That's - 10 MR. 1111111111: All right. Was there any 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 12 units? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Could he have been placed 15 in one of those units? 16 MR. : I'm sure he could have. 17 MR. : But I mean, by executive 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 19 the -? 20 MR. : I believe they would have had 21 to make a s ecial concessions for the inmate. 22 MR. . Okay. 23 MR. : They would have to, you know, 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MCC. MR. where I meant by, is, so the executive staff wasn't able to -- MR. MR. MR. 40 Okay. And then, that's • I don't believe so. • -- independently -? No. We were not. MR. Okay. Were there many inmates housed within Ten South at that time? MR. : No. I believe, at that time, we may have had a total of four to five. Of course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't remember his name. But basically, these are inmates that have made crimes against the United States, which it was deemed that those inmates would be in that Special Management Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the general MR. : Was this, like, a terroristiiiiilof people? MR. : I would say some of them were terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00111839 41 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 3 general po ulation unit. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : He would go - normally, guys 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 7 before, yijigigilliike Florence. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. re would be at the ADX 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 14 threats against the United States, or there was 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 20 unit. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. ruys you wouldn't want in the 23 24 25 1 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 5 MR. : I believe that Epstein and - 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 8 showing passive resistant activity, as far as, 9 you know, when they're taking meals, or 10 wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when 11 they're giving him direction. You know, he 12 would sit in his cell, and he wouldn't talk. 13 You know, I believe he wasn't taking meals at 14 one point. He was refusing to take showers. 15 Things of those that nature. 16 MR. : And the sentence 17 continues, including requesting to see a 18 Psychologist. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. Is that part of it? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. Okay. Did he say why he 23 wanted to see a Psychologist? 24 MR. : I don't know. 25 MR. No? general po ulation because -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- of their recruitment 43 MR. Okay. ' advised 42 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 there. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And video monitored at 13 all times? 14 MR. Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. So, it's like your 16 maximum security type? 17 MR. : That would be the highest 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 in. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 Yeah. 23 MR. : But the executive team 24 never discussed that? 25 MR. : No. 44 1 MR. : Remember that, no. 2 MR. : Sure. "At Epstein's 3 request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist." 4 Do you know who he made that request to? Would 5 it have been SHU staff? 6 MR. : He probably would have made 7 those requests to any of the staff that may 8 have been monitoring him at that time. Because 9 if he was placed on psychological observation 10 at that time, psychological observation, you 11 would have had to have a staff person that sat 12 there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate 13 couldn't have monitored him. 14 MR. Okay. And that, is that, 15 like, 24/7? 16 MR. : That would have been 24 hours 17 of that. a week. 18 MR. : So, a staff member is 19 just -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. -- would just sit there 22 and watch 23 MR. Correct. 24 MR. Communicate with him, or 25 no? EFTA00111840 45 1 MR. : Yeah, of course. 2 MR. . Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, and that's, you know, 4 encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - 5 you want it to - even though the inmate is 6 placed in that situation, again, we're talking 7 about humanit here. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : You know, you want to gage 10 this guy's mental acuity. Meaning that, the 11 inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how 12 he's doin . 13 MR. . Sure. 14 MR. : Is he improving? Or is he 15 declining? Because if he's declining, and you 16 can actually see it, you want to contact 17 somebody. You know, if this guy is in there 18 being very, you know, belligerent, he's being 19 passive aggressive, or active resistant, or 20 displaying signs of violence. You want to make 21 sure you notify someone. You're not just going 22 to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm 23 to himself and/or a staff when they come to the 24 door, to provide his services. You know? Such 25 as taking him to shower; providing his meals; 46 1 providing his medication or whatever it is. 2 So, you just don't want to just sit there and 3 allow this inmate just, you know, if he's going 4 to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or 5 himself, you want to ensure that you notify 6 someone. 7 MR. : Okay. "So, following 8 this assessment, Epstein was initially placed 9 on suicide watch. He was later interviewed 10 again, and downgraded to psychological 11 observation." 12 MR. Min-hmm. 13 MR. : Now, just for the suicide 14 watch and psychological observation, where are 15 they located? 16 MR. : Those would be conducted 17 downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health 18 Services area. 19 MR. And that's outside of the 20 SHU. Correct? 21 MR. That is correct. 22 MR. . And that was prior to any 23 attempt on his life or anything like that? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Okay. Was that - ah, 47 1 that's okay. "After some time, he was returned 2 to the SHU. began hearing talk that 3 Epstein was trying to get back on suicide 4 watch." 5 MR. Min-hmm. 6 MR. : "Information like this is 7 usually generated from rounds, kites -", and 8 kites are notes, correct? 9 MR. Correct. . 10 MR. : And notes from inmates, 11 specificaiiiiiorrect? 12 MR. : It could be - yes - that 13 would be inmate correspondence. 14 MR. : Yeah. "And monitoring of 15 phone calls and letters." 16 MR. Correct. M l 17 MR. : So, the hearing of talk, 18 that's all based upon inmate talk? 19 MR. : That would have been - all 20 that staff. 21 MR. Okay. Staff, as well? 22 MR. : You know, staffing sitting 23 there, and, you know, especially when he's on 24 suicide watch. You know, staff are taking 25 notes. So, it's every 1S minutes, you know, 48 1 staff is - oh, I'm sorry - every 30 minutes, I 2 believe, I can't remember. It's been a while. 3 But, you know, a staff member - it's every 30 4 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the 5 inmate is doin inside of his cell. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : You know? So, you know, what 8 is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. 9 The inmate is facing away from staff. The 10 inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes 11 statements, those statements will be written in 12 the log. 13 MR. : Okay. It says, "On or 14 about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found 15 unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a 16 homemade piece of fabric on his chest." When 17 you say a "homemade piece of fabric," can you 18 explain that a little bit? 19 MR. : Okay. Basically, a homemade 20 piece of fabric. It could be anything. 21 Because it's out of the Special Housing, that's 22 what we'riiiiiiiiilabout. Right? 23 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm 24 talking about specifically in this instance. 25 Do you know what is meant by "found on the EFTA00111841 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest"? MR. : It could have been fragments from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments from sheets. It could have been fragment -- MR. : So, like, pieces of cloth MR. MR. together. MR. : It was tied together, or -- MR. : Sure. MR. -- you know, (Indiscernible *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade fashioned -- MR. Did you see it at all, though, yourself? MR. : I can't remember. MR. : Okay. Sure. "Epstein's cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical Unit." Do you recall, at that time, who his cell mate was? MR. : Tartaglione. cloth -- -- that they could tie 50 1 MR. Okay. Great. And did 2 you - aiiiiiirt. We talk about him in a little 3 bit. " heard from his staff that Epstein 4 may have been faking unconsciousness." Do you 5 know who told that? 6 MR. : Well, basically, in 7 memorandum, I remember when it was reported to 8 me, and I made my report, I believe it was in 9 the report of incident by Lieutenant 10 MR. Oka 11 MR. And I 12 believe that she had put out an e-mail, which 13 concluded that the inmate was showing 14 manipulative behavior through his statements, 15 and what was observed by Medical staff. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. ro, basically, they were : 18 saying that the incident didn't occur as the 19 inmate ma have to make it look or occur. 20 MR. : Okay. And we're going to 21 get into in a second. 22 MR. M.o. 23 MR. : "Because he was not 24 observed opening his eyes and making other 25 suspicious movements not consistent with an 51 1 unconscious state." Or sorry. "Because he was 2 observed opening his eyes and making other 3 suspicious movements not consistent with an 4 unconscious state. Epstein was medically 5 assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed 6 that his cell mate, Nicholas Tartaglione -", T- 7 A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. • -- tried to take his 10 life." Was that investigated? 11 MR. : I believe - no, I mean -- 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. -- I can't remember, but I 14 believe a report of incident may have been 15 done. 16 MR. • Okay. 17 MR. : And primarily, when a report 18 of incident is generated - so, any time that an 19 incident happens in the institution, I'm going 20 to walk you through this. The Lieutenant 21 that's on shift is supposed to do the initial 22 fact finding. The gathering of evidence. 23 Okay? 24 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 MR. rnd all of these things. And : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, it's put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS Department will investigate it, especially if we're having an assault, which would have been a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of another. So, pictures would have been taken. Clinical assessments of both inmates would have been taken. Witness statements would have been taken. All of these things would have been done, and it oes into an investiiiiiiiiiacket. MR. Sure. So, - would have -? : Would have been -- Created it and provided - Lieutenant MR. MR. it to SIS? MR. : -- and would have created it, and for it to move on. MR. : And do you know if there was any credibility found to the claim that Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - had tried to take his life? MR. : I don't believe there was any credibilit that was ever concluded -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- that that incident EFTA00111842 53 1 happened. 2 MR. And do you know anything 3 about when he was initially found, if the 4 homemade rope or whatever it was, was found 5 around his neck, or it says in this, "On his 6 chest," anything with that, with, you know, do 7 you know what I mean? Like, if someone was 8 trying to hang themself, if it came on their 9 chest, do you know anything about how that may 10 have happened? 11 MR. : I mean, forensically, I 12 wouldn't know. I'm not a -- 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : -- an investigator on that 15 level. So, I can't really tell you the 16 position of any type of homemade fashioned item 17 that would be used to facilitate a suicide 18 attempt, or -- 19 MR. 20 MR. 21 That's not m 22 MR. 23 MR. 24 what it was, 25 MR. • • Sure. -- an assault attempt. level. Sure. : Again, I'm trying to remember or what was used, but again -- Mm-hmm. 54 1 MR. : I don't know exactly. So, 2 I can't really determine or give you that type 3 of, you know I don't have expertise -- 4 MR. Sure. 5 MR. -- in that area. So -. 6 MR. But the information that 7 was provided to you suggested that he tried to 8 take his own life, not that the cell mate tried 9 to take is life? 10 MR. : Correct. That it was 11 inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate 12 Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or 13 tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you 14 have to - so, like, you have to take an 15 advantage because it's one inmates' word 16 against another. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, when the investigation 19 comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would 20 have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would 21 have been interviewed, at which time, you would 22 have took those statements, you would have 23 waived, and then you would have took into 24 consideration any witness statements, or 25 anything that was observed during the clinical 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 assessment. So, that's why Health Services helps us out, because the inmates don't want understand that everything they're doing, or anything they're saying, is being entered on that clinical assessment. MR. Sure. MR. ro, that's where they were : saying that he wasn't - his actions may not have been what they should have been for a person that was quasi supposed to had been assaulted. MR. MR. • Sure. : Or if he was supposed to have been unconscious, you was displaying this type of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't there. So, I don't know what occurred. I'm just going by what was - the information that was relayed back to me. MR. Absolutely. So, as far as Tartaglione -- MR. MR. MR. : Correct. : -- what was he in for? : I believe that Tartaglione was responsible for - he was a former Police Officer, I believe - and I believe he had 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 killed four people, and then he buried them, buried the victims somewhere up near Otisville Prison. I think that's what it was. Back in the day. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. : Yeah. Something like that. • So, he was actually in for murder though? MR. : Yeah. It was murder. He was in for murder and whatever other stuff he was doing. MR. MR. : Doing in his capacity as a Police Officer. MR. And who selected him and why? To be E stein's -- MR. : Who selected him? MR. -- who selected him to be Epstein's roommate, and why? MR. : I don't remember who vetted Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, even though Tartaglione had a murder on his jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had issues being in general population. You understand what I'm saying? • Okay. EFTA00111843 57 1 MR. Mm-hmm. Former Police 2 Officer? 3 MR. : Former Police Officer. He 4 had issues - because I've dealt with 5 Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one 6 of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues 7 with those inmates in those blocks, where 8 they're made for people who are sex offenders. 9 For inmates that have issues with - when they 10 go to population - general, they can't cope. 11 Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are 12 in that unit. So, you don't really have that 13 much issues in those type of units because 14 these guys are going to do their time, or await 15 their sentencing, and then move on. So, you 16 don't really have a lot of violence. But this 17 guy was alwa s, always in the mix of something. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : But we couldn't put him on 20 the general population unit, and you just can't 21 throw him in SHU. You know what I'm saying? 22 Just because. You just can't. So, in 23 Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - I 24 think it was in K82. I can't remember. When 25 he goes to MCC, you know, they don't have those 58 1 type of units. You know? So, he would have to 2 go in general population, or he would go to 3 SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and 4 said I'm not going to population, you can't 5 force me. So, when you do his assessment, his 6 Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does 7 their assessment, Health Services does that 8 assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is 9 clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded 10 him to go. But the inmate said, well, you 11 know, I'm a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. 12 I'm not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that's 13 how he eniciiiiiiiISHU. 14 MR. : Sure. So, he was in SHU 15 already? 16 MR. ..eah. 17 MR. : And do you believe he was 18 a good placement for Epstein? 19 MR. : Well, at the time, again, you 20 would have to be mindful, we don't - how could 21 I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells 22 based on race, or - but however - or gang 23 affiliations, all of these things that, you 24 know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you 25 say, okay, well, you have guys up there that - 59 1 at MCC - that were facing murder charges. 2 There's a lot of them. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : Hey, I mean, if they're in 5 SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. 6 They can't cope in the general population unit. 7 So, we would look at him just like another 8 inmate. 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 10 MR. He never hurt another inmate. 11 MR. And that was going to be 12 my next question. So, he wasn't known to 13 assault a• 14 MR. : Bro, he never assaulted 15 another inmate. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah, he got a murder beef, 18 okay, that's fine. But guess what? He never 19 hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. 20 MR. : Sure. So, taking, 21 though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, 22 though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried 23 to murder him, do you think that - do you 24 believe that there was any credibility to that 25 claim? 60 1 MR. : Again, what I will say is, is 2 that I will tell you, like you said, my 3 statements before, that it was brought to my 4 attention that inmate Epstein was doing 5 manipulative behavior, kind of testing the 6 water to see what he could get away with. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : Being his initial 9 incarceration. Probably not too familiar with 10 being in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. 11 He kind of figured out what he could do, in 12 order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try 13 to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. 14 That's kind of where he wanted it to go. 15 MR. : So then, he wanted to be 16 in SHU by himself -- 17 MR. Of course. 18 MR. -- and 19 why he -- 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. • -- said that -? Okay. 22 So, you believe that he made the claim against 23 Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by 24 himself. 25 MR. that may have been : That's in my belief, after EFTA00111844 61 1 looking at everything, and everything that was 2 done, I believe so. I think that would be 3 accurate. 4 MR. : Okay. It says, "He was 5 placed back on suicide watch for approximately 6 one week." So, that happened the 23rd, and it 7 brought him up to about July 30th. Is that 8 correct? 9 MR. Miii-hmm. Correct. 10 MR. : Of 2019. "Unlike his 11 first and previous placement on suicide watch, 12 Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies 13 reported in his incarceration history. The 14 staff was tasked with determining whether 15 Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using 16 manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a 17 cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was 18 placed on psychological observation, and 19 eventually returned to the SHU." Now, again, 20 and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that 21 didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to 22 you? Like he he should be on Ten South? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : You don't recall any 25 Lieutenants saying that? 62 1 MR. : That wouldn't be a 2 Lieutenant's urview. 3 MR. • Sure. 4 MR. : A Lieutenant, most of the 5 people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't 6 understand SAMS placement until I became a 7 Deputy Ca tain. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : All right? And I understood 10 that, you know, these guys, you just can't put 11 a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that's an 12 identifier that has to come from Central 13 Office. 14 MR. • Okay. 15 MR. BOP Central Office. 16 MR. • So, if a Lieutenant - so, 17 if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're 18 saying, he should have been in Ten South -- 19 MR. : Well -- 20 MR. : -- but they don't know 21 what they're talking about, basically? 22 MR. : No. Because that identifier 23 - because I believe you know this - it's an 24 identifier. 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 63 1 MR. : That's put on an inmate just 2 like - I will give you an example - sentencing 3 designations. Oka ? 4 MR. Sure. 5 MR. : That's their job. 6 MR. Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : They're going to do, say, 8 what Security level inmates, what type of 9 prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, 10 you know, all of these different things, all 11 that stuff is going to come from that Central 12 Office, to say, okay, we looked at this 13 particular inmate's history, or PSI, and we 14 feel that this identifier needs to be placed on 15 this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or 16 moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff 17 can't put that on there. 18 MR. . Sure. 19 MR. That's going to come from 20 Central Office. 21 MR. Okay. So, although a 22 Lieutenants have thought -. 23 MR. : They may have - yeah - they 24 may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, 25 his situation, of him being a multi- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all of these things, he wouldn't be a good candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That responsibility, that identifier, that moniker should have been put on Epstein before he even came to MCC. MR. : Sure. So, do you know if this is something - obviously, it sounds like it would have been out of your hands - would that be something that the Warden would discuss with, what? The Regional Director? MR. : That's right. The Warden would have had that discussion between SIA, the Regional staff, and also, it goes to the Region, the Central Office staff over Correctioiiiiiiiiiiming. MR. : Okay. And you were never MR. And designations. MR. • -- involved with any of that? MR. : I would never be in any of those conversations. MR. Okay. Fair enough. So, EFTA00111845 65 1 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden 2 would be the right person to go back to and 3 just say, hey, did this ever come up in 4 conversation? 5 MR. Right. 6 MR. : Okay. Okay. It says, 7 "At the direction of the Warden, 8 initiated the process of compiling possible 9 cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and 10 submittingi2E4idates to the Warden for his 11 review. and his staff fully screened 12 potential cell mates, and reported their 13 determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes 14 -", E-F-R-A-I-N, R-E-Y-E-S, "- was selected and 15 housed in a cell with Epstein." 16 MR. ..hat's right. 17 MR. : And it says, "The 18 Assistant Warden," but I'm assuming they mean 19 the Associate Warden, "Warden and Regional 20 Director were notified." 21 MR. ...Okay. This is how that went 22 down. Mr. sat with me - not with the 23 AW present - and we wanted to - we started 24 talking about security protocols, moving 25 forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with me 66 1 and Mr. , we had this discussion. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. Because like I said earlier 4 in my statement, even though the AW would have 5 been my next in succession, as far as my 6 Supervisor, however, I did have conversations 7 directly with the Warden, as far as for 8 security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) 9 in the institution. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MR. : So, we sat there, and he 12 wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates 13 that would be possible good candidates as a 14 cell mate for E stein moving forward. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So, I brought a compiled, I 17 believe I had ten names, and he and I went 18 through those names, we brought it down to 19 three. Then those three names, Mr. 20 because I sat there - when he called the 21 Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the 22 Regional Director vetted those three names. 23 MR. Sure. 24 MR. rnd then, I sat there, and I : 25 was privy to that conversation. I sat there, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole makeup of all three of them, and the Regional Director said, no I want this guy. MR. So, the Regional Director MR. EYes. MR. : -- ultimately made the decision? MR. : Yes. MR. So, give me a little background on Reyes. What was he in for? MR. : I believe Reyes was a Hispanic, older male. I believe that particular inmate was in for - I think he was in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I can't remember. MR. Some kind of a charge with -- MR. MR. MR. of charges MR. MR. MR. Charge, dealing with -- -- sexual -- -- with, you know, those type sexual -- • So, a similar type of -- similar type of charges -- . -- charge. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 MR. : -- as Epstein, I believe, or I can't remember. MR. : Okay. Was he - when he was being vetted - was he close to, like, a release date or anything like that? An anticipated release date? MR. : No one knew that. Because this is what you need to understand about MCC. MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not prisons. MR. : Sure. MR. rt's a jail. So, that means if a guy goes to court, you know, you get locked up, and then, the next day, you might go to court, the Judge might say, no, I'm releasing ou. We don't know. MR. : Sure. MR. : The only time we'll know is when the inmates come back from court, where is this guy at? He was released. MR. : Gotcha. MR. rkay. Now, we got this guy still in our count. So, if they don't bring a transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're going to bring the transfer order back with EFTA00111846 69 1 them for court line. These guys got released. 2 So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. 3 So, we try to get these guys up. Do some 4 inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. 5 But however, we don't know if an inmate goes 6 out to court if they're coming back. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : However, there is times when 9 they put out a roster, and it's given to - as 10 far as all Correctional Officers that work the 11 units, and it will say, court line, inmate 12 Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That 13 means that he has to come downstairs with all 14 belongings. So, if they say it, that means 15 he's not coming back. That's either he's 16 transferring to another BOP facility, or he's 17 going to be released to the street. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : But I can guarantee you that 20 that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes 21 was on that day, it didn't say WAR. Because it 22 would have said WAB, the first thing that that 23 OIC should have said, that's my orange tag guy. 24 Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, 25 and I made them put them up on the board. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU Lieutenant wasn't there. But he would have called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don't have a cell. MR. : Yeah. So, how long did it take to vet? You know, I know you said you started it with ten, and then it brought down to three, and then the Regional Director ultimately decided the one. But how long does that process take? MR. : I believe it took - I'm thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took a day. MR. MR. : Okay. : I mean, we actually went - and, you know, I don't know - I know either the Warden and I was having a lengthy conversations, because the Warden wanted to ensure - Warden philosophy when dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he's another inmate. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. rnd what he tried to try to : get across to exec staff, and what he tried to 71 1 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to 2 when I disseminated down to the subordinate 3 staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about 4 what his char es are? 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : Or since he's sensationalized 7 in the media. Nobody cares. 8 MR. : Of course. 9 MR. : We're going to manage him 10 appropriately. Because if you know anything 11 about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn 12 and MCC, we don't run those jails. The court 13 runs those ails. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : So, and that's the truth, the 16 court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says 17 goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's 18 neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted 19 the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, 20 he has certain charges, but we're going to make 21 sure he gets everything that all the inmates 22 get when they come to MCC. The inmates are 23 going to get proper care. The inmate is going 24 to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. 25 Whatever it may be. But however, after those 72 1 situations with Epstein where it showed that 2 his behavior was manipulative, when it shows 3 that he was trying to get things for 4 unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to 5 get anything that would benefit him, we had to 6 take some different protocols. We had to take 7 a different - the had to take a different -- 8 MR. : Approach. 9 MR. : mindset with this guy, or 10 the way we managed him had to change. Because 11 we already had this guy saying that he was 12 going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or 13 whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, 14 moving forward, we put protocols in place that 15 will prot2is_1,L25 an Agency. 16 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, speaking of 17 protocols, was it discussed, then, when you 18 were vetting these, hey, we have inmates 19 constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is 20 moved, one of these other two that were down to 21 the three would be moved in with him? Was that 22 discussed? 23 MR. : No. He would just basically 24 - because like I said, again, at MCC, you 25 wouldn't know how long the duration on the EFTA00111847 1 inmates sta 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 start the 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 MR. 10 MR. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 Sure. You wouldn't know. So, you just have to vetting process -- : Press it -- -- over again? -- all over again. Okay. : Whoever is available in the unit, that may be single-celled, because as you know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, and Special Housing Units, they cannot be celled alone. MR. MR. MR. • And -- They must have a cell mate. • -- in the Special Housing Unit, ever one must have a cell mate? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : Oh, I didn't know that. So, every sin one needs to have a cell mate? MR. : Except - except, because it's one of the areas that we didn't discuss, outside of Ten South - there was a range that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from Ten South, that only had one man cell occupancy which on G-range. MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. Was that part of the Special Housing Unit? MR. Mit-hmm. MR. : So, there is a part of the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man occupancy, and -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- another part that has two-man occu ancy? MR. : That is correct. MR. Okay. And Epstein was housed in the two-man occupancy? MR. MR. : Was it ever discussed to put him in one of the one-man occupancies? MR. MR. MR. : No. No? : Because all of those cells were filled with inmates that were vetted, that needed that t e of supervision. MR. : Okay. MR. : You had inmates in there 75 1 that, if they was put with another inmate, 2 inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would 3 die. 4 MR. And was part of that -- 5 MR. Whey would be assaulted. So, 6 we would have to make those considerations. 7 So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, 8 according to their situation -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. M.- I believe it was sound. 11 But guess what? You can only - you're like the 12 coach - I can make the game plan, but if the 13 players are not executing the game plan, whose 14 fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? 15 MR. : And exactly, and that's 16 what we're doing here, we're Monday morning 17 quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all 18 right, this is - and that's why we're going 19 back through it. So, "The Warden directed 20 on multiple occasions that Epstein 21 needed a cell mate at all times, and 22 verbally informed his Lieutenants the same. 23 repeatedly directed his SHU Lieutenant - 24 Lieutenant - that Epstein needed a cell 25 mate at all times. Additionally, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and directed staff to be very alert and attentive about Epstein's special accommodations." So, when you say that about the SHU staff, did you also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed to have a cell mate? MR. : Yes. MR. Oh, so, they all were -- MR. Yes. MR. -- were aware? MR. Yes. MR. Can you look at the - so, the SHU staff for both of August 9th and the very early morning hours of August 10th - can you just list the people and let me know if you informed those people? MR. : So, basically, my hours of work were normally from - let's just say 7:30 to 4:00. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, I ensured that it wasn't within one week, but it was a process of doing rounds. So I tr to hit every shift. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00111848 77 1 because that's the one I work. Evening watch, 2 I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, 3 this is the situation. Let's make sure that, 4 you know, we're paying attention. And then, 5 morning watch, of course. 6 MR. Okay. MR. Eo 8 MR. : So, beginning at 8:00 : 7 9 a.m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to 10 who - and name the people - can you just name 11 who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a 12 conversation with them, if they were aware. 13 MR. I. Okay. Let me see here. 14 Well, we had . I've talked to 15 Perry Joiner Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was 16 in there. was one of the guys 17 that was u there as a Rec Officer. 18 MR. So, all -- 19 MR. : Him. 20 MR. -- all of those people 21 were, you had conversations -- 22 MR. Mies. 23 MR. : -- specifically with 24 them, and the 25 MR. 'I'll': I've talked with these guys. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 MR. Absolutely. Can you just name the other people for the shifts after him? I think tiiiiiist MR. : You got - now, M. Thomas. M. Thomas, what you need to understand is, that he would have been - because, you know, like I said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- custody staff. I don't have conversations with him. MR. Okay. So, Michael Thomas MR. So, that mean -- MR. • -- may not have known? MR. -- right, because realistically, the morning watch and evening watch shift, eo le don't like to come to work. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, they - if you sign up for overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. I'll take it. But you're non-custody. So, that means anybody can work it. A teacher. A Food Service foreman. MR. : Is the SHU easier to work than the other units? MR. : I wouldn't say it's easier, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 but it's less labor intensive. MR. : Okay. MR. recause, in my opinion, from when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing was always hard work because I'm going to tell you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I mean vigilant, you have to understand, when you're working that Unit, anything can happen. It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're not walking, looking in those cells, testing the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, sometimes doors was unlocked. MR. MR. doors, those MR. MR. MR. MR. . Mm-hmm. Or flaps opened. To chase What is a flap? -- the Food Service flap. Okay. Sure. : You know? Making rounds. Making sure the inmates are not - have coverings up when you open up the - what do you call it? MR. The window? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 MR. : The windows or putting a towel over their beds, and blocking the light from you being able to observe them. MR. MR. MR. MR. . But then, how -- And what I said about -- but how -. -- but I want to go back because I know about the statement, about the doors being left open. I'm talking about more in general population, as far as when you're making rounds, those type of things, you test. Making sure the door is secure. Making sure the food slots are secure. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : As an Officer coming up, even as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that's supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide open? MR. : Wow. Ever at the MCC? MR. : No. Because that wasn't my capacity. MR. Sure. MR. What wasn't my job. But as a : Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00111849 81 1 Lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would 2 do. When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk 3 to staff. I would walk in and look at the 4 Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire 5 extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? 6 Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block. 7 Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. 8 Showing - tr in to train the Officers. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. That's what I used to do. 11 MR. : Lead by example. 12 MR. : And guess what happens? You 13 would find stuff, because people in hurry 14 enough to go home on that evening watch, them 15 inmates know their doors are locked. But they 16 know they're not going to come out. Because if 17 they come out, there's a situation. But 18 they'll situ there and leave it open. 19 MR. : So, back to this, though. 20 Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the 21 subsequent shifts, if you had conversations 22 with them? 23 25 MR. Wo -- 24 MR. : So, Thomas, no. MR. : -- so, Thomas, because he 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 would have just been on there. Mr. Washington. Yeah. I've talked to Mr. Washington because Mr. Washington would go between evening watch, because I would talk to him. Clyde would work evening watch, so I've talked to him on evening watch. He was working morning watch because these guys, it was such short of staff, that these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign up for overtime. So, Clyde Washington was one of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. Yeah, so, I talked to him. IIIIIIiiiPercy Joiner. I talked with him. would go between the three, and also the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though he was the three - he was the one with OIC duties. MR. : And OIC stands for Officer-in-Charge? MR. MR. MR. : Officer-in-Charge. : Okay. : So, he was doing all the rosters. When it was time to move inmates 83 1 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge 2 of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, 3 to ensure that the accountability of the unit 4 was correct, to make sure that the inmates were 5 placed in their proper cells. Who was this? 6 I'm sorry. Hold on. 7 MR. : And so, in the SHU, we 8 want to be focusing on? 9 MR. : T. Noel. T. Noel was one of 10 the -- 11 MR. And that's Tova? 12 MR. -- now, I know Tova. 13 MR. Yeah. 14 MR. : Now, Tova, I can't remember 15 if I spoke to Tova. Tova - exactly. 17 MR. rut I know that I had hit all 16 MR. : Okay. 18 three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was 19 always up there on day watch. Evening watch. 20 I stayed over because that's what the Warden 21 wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and 22 hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do 23 it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why 24 wouldn't Ili? 25 MR. : Sure. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 MR. : The Warden -- MR. Okay. MR. : we sat down, he said, these are the things that I want to happen. First, I want you to make sure, walk through, talk about, make sure the staff is aware, (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, and this. And also, I know that you have - that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't tell them - what do you call that? - by -- So, you sent an e-mail to MR. all the SHU? MR. : Yes, I did. To all Correctional Services staff. And I think I still got it. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. to anyone? MR. it. To all Correctional? Yeah. I still got -- Did you ever provide -- that e-mail. : -- that to anyone? Huh? Did you ever provide that No. And they never asked for EFTA00111850 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 MR. Can you absolutely provide that to us? MR. : Yeah. I think I have one, and we can go to my office, so I can show you. I don't want you to think I - I will bring it up for you. MR. : So, would have this Michael Thomas and Tova Noel been on that e- mail? MR. : Tova would have been, because he's a Correctional Officer. But not Thomas. MR. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. You understand? • Okay. : But however, what we did was MR. I thought everyone was considered a Correctional Officer. That's not the case? MR. : As far as when emergencies happen. MR. Okay. MR. : When emergencies happen, regardless of what your discipline is, we all come together, it means you going to - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone was given the opportunity, that when you went through Correctional - those tactics that you learned in Glynco, it was about being a Correctional Officer. It wasn't about being a Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It's about Correctional principals. Okay. : Introduction to Correctional MR. MR. principals. MR. : But as far as there is an e-mail that just the people that are working in the Correctional Officer -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Yes. • -- okay. And I can show that to you. Perfect. have that. Awesome. MR. : Because it wasn't just me just talking to them. I put out guidance, and I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it was one time. I talked about inmates being placed on suicide watch. I talked about inmates putting on there - what is the 87 1 difference between close supervision - what is 2 it? - suicide watch. 3 MR. Psychological 4 observation. 5 MR. : And psychological. There's 6 no such thing as psychological - and that you 7 know now - there's no such thing. It's called 8 close supervision. There's no such as 9 psychological. That was an MCC thing. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. What they made up. So, it's 12 a close and/or suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, you have at least one 14 e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional 15 Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell 16 mate? 17 MR. : It wasn't saying Epstein, but 18 I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and 19 one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet 20 for Epstein. I think you may have that. I 21 don't know if you have it. And then, I have 22 wrote another one about the important of doing 23 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. 24 MR. : Okay. Yeah, if you can - 25 after we're done - either you can send it to 88 1 me, or you can give it to me. 2 MR. : I can give it to you. I'm 3 going to ive ou a copy. 4 MR. . Perfect. 5 MR. NO-hmm. 6 MR. All right. Then just -- 7 MR. And so -- 8 MR. -- I think there's a few 9 more. Like, I don't know how to spell his 10 name, pronounce his name, but -- 11 MR. : So -- 12 MR. 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 16 custody guy. So, MR. : was another non- , I believe worked in 17 - he was a Material Handler. I think 18 was a Material Handler. So, he's not 19 Correctional Services anymore. However, did 20 the have a background - no, I'm sorry. 21 went to R and D. So, he was Receiving 22 and Discharge. So, these staff members worked 23 as Correctional Officers, came up as 24 Correctional Officers. But their daily 25 assignment, their job descriptions changed. EFTA00111851 89 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Their whatever, their non- 3 custody. 4 MR. : So, the people that 5 worked in the SHU, and the Correctional 6 Officers, they were aware of it, but people 7 that had different functions in the facility, 8 they may not have been? 9 MR. : May not have been because I 10 wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. 11 MR. : And what about, do you 12 know if there were any kind of, like, post-it 13 notes, or sticky notes, or any -? 14 MR. : Yes. I had created - it was 15 one, one, because I said orange card inmates - 16 I said, make sure these particular inmates, 17 inmates high visibility inmates, and I think I 18 talked about that, that the inmates, their 19 cards should be orange. And those would be our 20 high visibility inmates that you - and I think 21 I got an e-mail about that, too - about the 22 high visibility inmates inside the unit, you 23 should take special care to ensure these 24 inmates are -- 25 MR. : Observed. 90 1 MR. : -- observed. When you're 2 doing your rounds. 3 MR. : Anything, though, about 4 the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do 5 you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky 6 note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, 7 make sure that Epstein -? 8 MR. : I can't remember. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 10 MR. : But like I said, I was 11 putting out a lot of guidance -- 12 MR. Absolutely. 13 MR. you know, coming from - : 14 and, you know - coming from the Warden, and 15 things that I would have thought that was 16 beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was 17 just putting that guidance out. I kept putting 18 out. You know, like I said, you know, I'm 19 talking to them, I'm putting out the guidance, 20 but if they don't open their e-mail and don't 21 read it. 22 MR. : What about some of the 23 people who were Actin Lieutenants? Somebody 24 like an SOS 25 MR. : Ms. ? 91 1 MR. . Sorry. So, Ms. 2 Ys. , she would work 3 Correctional 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, should have he known 5 that -- 6 MR. She would have known. 7 MR. : -- should have she known 8 that Epstein had -? 9 MR. : It's common knowledge that 10 you're su osed to do 30-minute rounds. 11 MR. . Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And be vigilant. But 13 however, would she know, necessarily, that 14 those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, 15 that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, 16 you see an orange card, if you see the 17 guidance. I believe I had put something 18 together, that was on the OIC's desk, on the 19 desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, 20 and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 21 inmate. 22 MR. : But is it understood that 23 a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell 24 mate? 25 MR. : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 MR. Okay. So, you're saying, make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also understood, if it's a high-visibility inmate, they need a cell mate at all times? MR. ..(es. MR. : Okay. And did they all understand that? MR. Mies. MR. : All right. And to include Thomas and -- MR. MR. MR. MR. . Okay. MR. : And I don't believe I had that conversation with them. I'm not going to lie. I didn't have that conversation with them. MR. What about some of these Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like MR. : Ms. ? Oh, Ms. was in Correctional Services. And she - I believe - during that time, was working an Attorney conference. : I don't know. -- Noel? Because they are not custody. EFTA00111852 93 94 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. rhe was in Correctional 3 Service. She was working an Attorney 4 conference during that time. So, Ms. , I 5 actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. 6 She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. 7 She would have known. 8 MR. : So, she should have - or 9 would have, or should have? 10 MR. 11 MR. : How about some of these 12 other ones that we're on? You said IIII, 13 obviously, ou already said you -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- specifically directed 16 him. 17 MR. : If he - yeah - I brought him 18 in the office, and we spoke. Yes. 19 MR. : Do you know how - and I 20 think you said that you spoke to him on 21 multiple occasions -- 22 MR. Yes. 23 MR. : -- is that correct, and 24 made sure, make sure he has a cell mate? 25 MR. : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. What about MR. I had conversations - well, I don't believe I had a conversation with her. MR. : Should have she known, based upon the orange card? MR. : Yes. She would have known because I put the guidance out through the e- mail. MR. : Now, the guidance, though, said about - you said it talked about rounds as opposed to actual cell mate requirement though, correct? MR. : I can't remember. MR. Okay. MR. : You know, I don't know, because like I said, again, I put out a lot of guidance. MR. r: Yeah. MR. : But I know the people who I actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that means you working day watch, that means any movement happens on day watch, it don't happen 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 on morning watch. Inmates are locked in their cells. MR. MR. • Right. : So, anything, day watch, evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be aware. MR. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. So, that's why And we'll get in -- : So, that's why we would have that conversation. When he and I had that conversation. MR. : And do you remember - so, you recall specifically talking with him - do you - and this is, I want to know about - aside from what they should have known - specific I can't remember about . I believe it's as internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I remember that I would come into the Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. So, again, between the guidance that was put 96 1 out through emails, and the conversations that 2 I would have just encountering Lieutenants, 3 yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I 4 had a conversation with IIII. 5 MR. : And would have IIII made 6 sure that those people working in the SHU knew 7 this information? 8 MR. : He would have - as the 9 Lieutenaniiiiiiiiiie, yes. 10 MR. : Should have he made sure 11 somebody like - somebody that's not in there. 12 Although, Tova Noel, I think that was her 13 quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a 14 lot of times -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. • -- leading up to it. So, 17 should have he made sure that she -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. -- what about -- 20 MR. : Because she worked evening 21 watch. 22 MR. -- what about Michael 23 Thomas? 24 MR. : Michael Thomas, probably not. 25 But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00111853 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 I mean, you would say, okay, if he's working on evening watching or morning watch, there was no need to move inmates. There was no showers that should have been taking place. There was no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had to open u a cell door for, for those inmates. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, most of those inmates was done on day watch, there was no reason for them to move these u s. MR. : Okay. MR. : You understand what I'm saying? MR. : Sure. And then, as far as conversations with MR. was one of the Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got to make sure that you guys are doing it, you know, like that. But I know for a fact, the only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in my office, was the SHU OIC. MR. : So -- MR. : Was the SHU Lieutenant. Because they're in charge of that unit. So, I 98 1 disseminate the information and the guidance 2 out to him, and he's supposed to take that 3 guidance -- 4 MR. Mm-hmm. 5 MR. -- and push it forward -- 6 MR. For the unit. So, he's 7 in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy 8 in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're 9 in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a 10 cell mate at all times. 11 MR. Yes. . 12 MR. : And he, then, is supposed 13 to take that, and anybody that works within his 14 unit should know? 15 MR. Yeah. . 16 MR. : Okay. What about these 17 Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that 18 are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and 19 Activities Lieutenants -- 20 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 21 MR. • -- pestle like , 22 Durant. I think IIII. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Should have they known, 25 during these shifts, specifically on the 9th 99 1 and 10th -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. • -- should have they known 4 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 5 MR. : I believe so. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But, like again, I would have 8 to go back through my emails, you know, because 9 a lot of the communication that me and the 10 Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because 11 you can't catch them all on shift. 12 MR. Sure. 13 MR. rou know, you catch them : 14 passing and coming. So, I would put out 15 guidance that wa . 16 MR. : But as far as - you said 17 - that everyone knew that he had an orange card 18 and that he was a high visibility inmate, and 19 therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. 20 So, should have they known through that? 21 MR. Yeah. M 22 MR. : And is there any excuse 23 for any of them to say, I didn't know? 24 MR. : I'm not going to put that on 25 the Lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do 100 1 that. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. not going to be that guy 4 to say whatever, whatever. Because I'm going 5 to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it 6 was so much oin on -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : -- through that timeframe, 9 that I don't want to put my statement to 10 something like that, that could detrimentally 11 harm one of these Lieutenants. 12 MR. Mm-hmm. 13 MR. Ir'm not going to say that, 14 hey, I talked to -- 15 MR. EN: Itigtt. 16 MR. : on this day. I'm 17 not going to do that. 18 MR. : And I'm not saying about 19 speaking. I'm saying just the fact that there 20 was an - and again, you're saying that you 21 don't recall specific conversations about the 22 cell mate re uirements -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- aside from IIII. But 25 the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00111854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 MR. : Yes. MR. : -- card -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- is that something that just is common knowledge, if someone has an orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got an orange card he needs a cell mate? MR. Right. But then again, also, it was high visibility guys on - what do you call that? - on -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Ten South? -- no. On G. Oh, okay. The -- On that -- -- the one inmate. -- that one occupancy. So, with the guidance I had put out, I got to give you that e-mail. MR. : Okay. MR. : That e-mail was saying that, hey, these guys with these orange cards, you need to ensure hi h visibility vigilance. MR. : So - all right - so -- MR. : Ensure that these guys, you know, are alive, and all of this, you know, 102 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 that. 3 MR. : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 just require -- 7 MR. : Higher - or higher 8 supervision. 9 MR. Okay. So, you just need 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 MR. Illifeah. 13 MR. : All right. So, in this 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 MR. That is correct. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 recall -- 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. : -- and again, what you 23 said -? 24 MR. : And then, again, when I went 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure that is done. MR. • Okay. MR. : Making sure this guy -. You know, that's what I did. MR. Okay. MR. : Because that's what Mr. wanted. So, I did it. MR. All right. And then, again, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you. You said you talked to specifically about it, but when you did visit the SHU, not only were you telling them to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you also telling them, the people that you did interact with, that he needed to have a cell mate? MR. MR. MR. MR. Yes. • Okay. Yes. On Friday, August 9th - or sorry - when is the last time, can you recall, that you had that conversation with the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 up. 25 SHU staff? MR. MR. MR. 104 : I can't remember, sir. No problem. : I don't remember. Because like I said, that guidance came out between the time of him being upon his release from suicide watch from that last time, to the time during the time that we was doing the vetting for the cell mate. MR. MR. So -? : So, it was, you know, it was a short period of time that this guidance and these conversations took place. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And then, the reinforcement was when we would walk through the unit and just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this is a high visibility guy, why this guy got trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like me because I was trying to hold people accountable. But I didn't always write people MR. Mm-hmm. EFTA00111855 105 1 MR. : That's how I did, I came up 2 like that. I'm trying to help you. People 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 13 MR. Sure. 14 MR. rt's just words. And then, I 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 19 I'm not doing that. But what I'll tell you 20 was, the relationship between me and the 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 22 move forward through today, you know, the 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 25 I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, and I know that staff is going to blow you off. I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to whatever we was doing. It's what it is. MR. : Sure. And just so you know, just to give you a little bit of peace of mind, we're asking you the questions directly. You're not placing blame on anybody. : Right. : So, if we ask you : Yeah. -- like -- Okay. : -- if they were something, that's not on you. : Oh, okay. Well, I just MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. responsible or MR. wanted to -- MR. MR. understand that. MR. : Yeah. -- because I didn't : Yeah, yeah. 1 2 3 4 was responsible -- 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR. But -. 20 MR. : And that's not what I'm - I 21 mean, I'm not here for that. I'm just -- 22 MR. Right. 23 MR. -- I'm just here -- 24 MR. I mean, we do have to 25 figure out -- MR. here - I mean -- MR. 107 : Because like I said, I'm not I mean, we might say who MR. : Right. MR. -- or did they drop the ball? MR. Right. MR. But that's us asking you a direct question. Not you coming to us, saying, it was this guy's fault. : Right. You know, we're asking you. So, just -- : Oh, okay. Yeah. -- you know? : That's what I didn't MR. MR. specificall MR. MR. MR. understand. 108 1 MR. You know? 2 MR. : -- who did drop the ball 3 here. 4 MR. Yeah. . 5 MR. : But that's not - you're 6 not comin to us. We're coming to you. 7 MR. : Right. I understand. 8 MR. So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 the SHU." 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. "In this event, the 14 Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant 15 MR. Man-hmrn. 16 MR. : -- had oversight that 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 MR. Ma-hmm. 20 MR. : So, what time did - can 21 you look at the - oiliiiist 9th - what times 22 that he worked on? 23 MR. : The periods that - this is 24 Friday, ri ht? 25 MR. : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00111856 109 1 MR. : I got so, basically, I have 2 was not there. 3 MR. r: Oh. 4 MR. : He was there on that 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 6 Saturday. 7 MR. Did he not work 4:00 p.m. 8 to midnight? 9 MR. : He worked 4:00 p.m. - 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 11 MR. : Okay. You can speak. Do 12 you know something different? 13 MR. : No, no, no. I was just 14 clarifyin . 15 MR. : Oops, sorry. Can I see 16 the August 9th? 17 MR. : So, who was working on August 18 9th? 19 MR. Au ust 9th, it appears I 20 think you 21 MR. All right. So, 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. Well, and then 25 11111111? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 MR. ..eah. MR. : And then, underneath them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been Durant, and then, MR. IIIIIIIIIiight. MR. : Correct. All right. All right. So, they must have got this wrong somehow. So, it said - so, this is not accurate, when it says in this report - "In this event, the Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant , had oversight that day and took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who actually had oversight, then, since El was out? MR. : That would have been the day watch Operations Lieutenant. MR. And who was that? MR. : The day watch Operations Lieutenant for Au oust 9th would have been - it appears it was MR. So, would have been responsible? MR. MR. understanding that : Right. And is it your knew that he needed a 112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 cell mate?